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Mildly OT, but I believe you're referring to Rob Alderman who left Prodos to start Hysterical Games wherein they ran a KickStarter for their Panzerfauste game. Given the history, the topic of Prodos and their repeated KickStarter failures came up a few times. I do not recall reading any bad blood in the parting, just different directions and I believe Prodos even posted to that effect, but I'm not going to go that far for a tangent. Legoburner gave you a search function if you really care.

Back on topic, the results do appear to be in the "too good to be true" category since it allows for fabulous single piece detail at a fraction of the cost and in a much shorter timeframe, but I'll grant that most materials seem to be making some impressive strides so it's certainly not impossible. Still in the paradigm of "good, fast and cheap" they're saying you can have all three which would generally be a red flag. If I was a stable company, I'd be quite interested in seeing what could be done for some character model or other; if it pans out awesome but if it doesn't the loss is comparatively minor. If I was a small-scale creator, especially someone with KS money, I'd wait until the new technology shine has worn off a bit and there's more third-party success stories before I went gambling with money I couldn't replace.

 Krinsath wrote:
Hysterical Games wherein they ran a KickStarter for their Panzerfauste game. Given the history, the topic of Prodos and their repeated KickStarter failures came up a few times.

Prodos I thought was doing the casting for it too. I know they at least did the 3d sculpts and prototyping and I had thought they were doing manufacturing but that may have changed.

 Krinsath wrote:
Still in the paradigm of "good, fast and cheap" they're saying you can have all three which would generally be a red flag.

I wouldn't say it was cheap because it isn't quite at the cheap cost, inexpensive yes. To be fair they didn't say it was fast either. Tooling takes 5 days, that doesn't mean there isn't a queue or orders to deal with so even though tooling is quickly... the time could be on par to something to Asia. I doubt it is that long though, probably somewhere in between given the timeline they've done so far with Crusaders but time will tell.

 Krinsath wrote:
Prodos I thought was doing the casting for it too. I know they at least did the 3d sculpts and prototyping and I had thought they were doing manufacturing but that may have changed.

Prodos did the initial castings certainly and they probably still do.

 Azreal13 wrote:
they appear to have had a British company secretary who provided their UK address initially, but that person was removed a little while back and replaced by one of the existing directors,

Which is what I meant although IIRC there were at least 2-3 people with British names associated with Prodos in the beginning. Either way nothing suspicious going on assuming that they are relocating to Poland which could easily account for their differing addresses and the storage unit.

I backed the hysterical games KS, and Prodos did some of the 3D design work and printing for for some of the range (but a number of other artists and printers were also involved)

The casting is being done by Rob Alderman himself and Prodos has not been involved in it

 Krinsath wrote:
Mildly OT, but I believe you're referring to Rob Alderman who left Prodos to start Hysterical Games wherein they ran a KickStarter for their Panzerfauste game. Given the history, the topic of Prodos and their repeated KickStarter failures came up a few times. I do not recall reading any bad blood in the parting, just different directions and I believe Prodos even posted to that effect, but I'm not going to go that far for a tangent. Legoburner gave you a search function if you really care.

Back on topic, the results do appear to be in the "too good to be true" category since it allows for fabulous single piece detail at a fraction of the cost and in a much shorter timeframe, but I'll grant that most materials seem to be making some impressive strides so it's certainly not impossible. Still in the paradigm of "good, fast and cheap" they're saying you can have all three which would generally be a red flag. If I was a stable company, I'd be quite interested in seeing what could be done for some character model or other; if it pans out awesome but if it doesn't the loss is comparatively minor. If I was a small-scale creator, especially someone with KS money, I'd wait until the new technology shine has worn off a bit and there's more third-party success stories before I went gambling with money I couldn't replace.

I think the reference to the UK company secretary etc is more linked to ex-Prodos Director Mark Rapson who now runs a company doing a Mad Max-esque game (Route 666 or something like that - I forget). He certainly appears to have split on less than amicable terms with the Polish side of Prodos and posted to that extent in the AvP thread on Dakka (starting from the link below if you want to trawl through it). As with any company politics I'm sure there's 3 sides to every story, but in the interests of full disclosure:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/5520/556916.page#8060796

I know some people assumed I was championing Prodos.. that wasn't my intention.. I was frustrated by the fact that a technology that I found interesting was taking back seat to another discussion.. in a thread about the technology.. and not the other. When I posted their address, it was because that's what is on their site. It wasn't meant to be some weird conspiracy, it was me pointing out that their site still mentioned the UK. I personally don't know anything about country codes or any of that, so learning that they are at least part (but now it seems primarily) in Poland is definitely interesting. There are a few companies out of Poland and a lot of them know each other.. so I'd be surprised if there wasn't something else in play. It would be nice to know what's going on, understand who is who and all of that.

I also don't feel like any of that changes the original topic... which I do still find interesting. I think a lot of people posting didn't bother to read the review or even what the discussion actually was before berating. If you didn't.. please do because the technique and technology sounds cool. I don't expect Prodos to give out their golden goose but if someone else can figure out what it is they're doing and the principles behind it get "out in the wild" then it would be as big as the general community learning about vacuum chambers, resin casting, etc. 7 years ago, the idea of so many people producing high quality resin kits, 3d printing, etc.. it was unheard of. So when I see reports of something like this, it is exciting. Is it coming from a source of contention? Yea. However, that doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Anyway, that said. I noticed today that Sodapop just released some AvP stuff. I do not know if they're connected to Prodos (it's got their name on it) but is this related to the outstanding KS stuff that Prodos hasn't delivered somehow?
The releases are - Facehuggers, Predator Young Bloods, USCM Sentry Guns.
http://sodapopminiatures.com/news/2016-05-16-may-releases.html
Like I said.. I just saw it as a release and I don't know what people are missing or what.. but it popped up and I thought the people who are still owed stuff would take interest.

Those are the prodos minis from what I can see.

Thing is, I'd argue it's easy for a technology to sound cool if it's being presented by habitual liars and, some might argue, outright frauds.

Also, even if it **is** as cool as they say, it's a really bad idea to do business with a contractor who's shown that sort of ethics for something your whole business would depend on, all the more so if they're not easily replaced (as with casters with a unique approach, which you'd tool your models for.)

Last, any potential customers should remember there's more than a few hobbyists (and the is crowd is precisely who you need to start a new line) who will run like hell once we sniff Prodos involvement.

(Hell, I might well back something for USD 1 and just haunt the comments; every dollar that doesn't go to those donkey caves is a moral victory at least.)

This is not what companies who tried them report so far and this is what matters I suppose for companies.

Look can you take your AVP complains to your relevant thread, it has become quite interfering at this point.

I'm curious what's the end game for the backers of AVP. AFAIK, Prodos is doing shipping in batches cause they basically have no money. But they are shipping.
So...warning people from ever buying their games or models or anything does what? Other than drying up their cashflow and basically ensuring you don't get your KS stuff?

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
This is not what companies who tried them report so far and this is what matters I suppose for companies.

Look can you take your AVP complains to your relevant thread, it has become quite interfering at this point.

Bunch of habitual liars selling the new best thing since sliced bread? Hey look, I've found the relevant thread

And a company's past will always be relevant in discussions regarding it's new product lines, certainly a past that's not even a getting past yet by a long shot. Don't like the baggage? Find a thread that doesn't have such baggage attached.

Sining wrote:
I'm curious what's the end game for the backers of AVP. AFAIK, Prodos is doing shipping in batches cause they basically have no money. But they are shipping.
So...warning people from ever buying their games or models or anything does what? Other than drying up their cashflow and basically ensuring you don't get your KS stuff?

Saying that prodos is lieing about their uni-cast system is just makeing you look dumb, since people already have products made with this tech on their hobby desks RIGHT NOW. All the space crusade mini's have been made with their new unicast tech, and people have already been reviewing them and backing up what prodos is saying about their tech.


I just want to point out agien. All the issues and "past" with prodos is around their kickstarters. They ship and deliver reliably to company partners AND their web orders. None of the people complaining are from web orders, it's from prodos ran kick starters. When partnered with other companies who are doing KS'ers, they always derived on their end to the company. I know your angry, but nothing your saying applies to what we're talking about here.

If this thread was about a prodos kickstarter, I would understand the warnings. Heck, I would be posting right now warning people to not touch a prodos ran kickstarter with a ten foot pole.

 Bolognesus wrote:


Bunch of habitual liars selling the new best thing since sliced bread? Hey look, I've found the relevant thread

Sigh, do you realize a few things, it is not marketed to consumers but to companies, the product is already out and been reviewed by people who are not part of the company, Prodos as a contractor does not have any "baggage" in either of their fields and to a consumer level their "Space Crusade" has been delivered as promised, coming in non AVP related threads to shame them because "they are Prodos" because of how AVP has been handled (witch is debatable who has the biggest fault on this) commenting on things wrongly and making accusations that need a serious backing is annoying.

This thread is about the process and what can be done with it, what do they lie about? the process? its already out and been reviewed, the delivery time? seems that "Space Crusade" was delivered on time, but we have yet to hear from somebody else on that subject so its impossible to comment, the price again the same thing and most importantly, it is not targeted to consumers but companies looking to outsource their work.

It's fairly self evident that Prodos are happy to leave KS backers twisting in the wind while they prioritise contract customers (it's the only logical explanation for how there's so little movement in the KS, yet those employing them as third parties are content IMO) so what happens when Prodos get tight on capacity and start prioritising their contract customers?

If you're convinced this is OT then I suggest you report the relevant posts and let the moderation team decide, but I'm guessing that's already happened and I don't think there's been a warning?

 Azreal13 wrote:
It's fairly self evident that Prodos are happy to leave KS backers twisting in the wind while they prioritise contract customers (it's the only logical explanation for how there's so little movement in the KS, yet those employing them as third parties are content IMO) so what happens when Prodos get tight on capacity and start prioritising their contract customers?

If you're convinced this is OT then I suggest you report the relevant posts and let the moderation team decide, but I'm guessing that's already happened and I don't think there's been a warning?

Got me a 2-day ban because I was rude.

 Bolognesus wrote:
And a company's past will always be relevant in discussions regarding it's new product lines, certainly a past that's not even a getting past yet by a long shot. Don't like the baggage? Find a thread that doesn't have such baggage attached.

However you are actually talking about two different things. We all know there are issues with the Kickstarter that is there. From a consumer standpoint I can understand the concern.

From a contractor standpoint however they have never had any issues, other than being slow. Every product they have been responsible in manufacturing from prototypes to the whole Kickstarter, has been created, delivered and still has been being delivered. As a manufacturer and supplier in those regards there haven't been any issues. If you take every kickstarter they have been part of and responsible for and even add AvP, that is still 10% of issues. They have A ranking according to school systems, probably be at a 3.5 out of 5 star rankings in reviews (mainly because there are more negative vocal people).

No one is saying there wasn't and is issues with the AvP Kickstarter which they are still responsible for. However to deny everything else is just being ignorant.

 Lockark wrote:
All the space crusade mini's have been made with their new unicast tech, and people have already been reviewing them and backing up what prodos is saying about their tech.

To be fair, the whole line was not created with the UniCast system. The boxed game is created with it and a few of the stand-alone miniatures are currently being created with it. Those are indeed shipping (single miniatures). Some of the single miniatures have been multi-piece and created with their traditional casting method. That is most likely because they just worked out the kinks and I expect the rest to be converted over to the UniCast system but not all of the Space Crusade miniatures have.

Personally I am on neither side. I received all my AvP stuff already, really late but I did get it. I'm still in a wait and see. However I am all about playing devils advocate and making sure at least proper information is brought forward. Acting like absolutely everything they have done is horrible is just incorrect.

 Azreal13 wrote:
If you're convinced this is OT then I suggest you report the relevant posts and let the moderation team decide, but I'm guessing that's already happened and I don't think there's been a warning?

There have been quite a few warnings, edits of posts on both sides. And the moderators did post the 2 rules as a reminder.

I can't speak for all the Moderators, but I've been following this thread.

As long as everyone follows the rules of the site - specifically Rule #1 (Be polite) and Rule #2 (Stay On Topic), all will be well.

And in my opinion, Prodos' past behavior and the current delivery status of their Kickstarter campaigns is in fact on topic when if comes to the business at hand here.

Within reason.

A thread without pics is like a day without sunshine!

 Azreal13 wrote:
It's fairly self evident that Prodos are happy to leave KS backers twisting in the wind while they prioritise contract customers (it's the only logical explanation for how there's so little movement in the KS, yet those employing them as third parties are content IMO) so what happens when Prodos get tight on capacity and start prioritising their contract customers?

If you're convinced this is OT then I suggest you report the relevant posts and let the moderation team decide, but I'm guessing that's already happened and I don't think there's been a warning?

^^^This. They get tight on capacity and leave you hanging? Hey, your only way to generate cashflow has just balked on you (there's no second-sourcing production on a production tech that's specific to one contractor!). If you really want to claim that bunch of donkey-caves at Prodos won't use that as some horrible, horrible leverage over you, you're properly delusional.

Using an irreplaceable contractor is enough of a risk as it is, using one that's shown the (utter lack of) ethics of this bunch of frauds? Just file for bankruptcy now; get it over with. Save your customers/backers/whatever the hit to their wallets for stuff they're likely to never get.
And honestly, yeah that's something that will **keep** coming up as soon as I sniff Prodos involvement in any KS. And yes, that's *entirely* on topic (Thanks Alpharius ).

Which minis on their site are Unicast? I thought their only Unicast minis were the boxed set versions of the Space Crusaders.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Which minis on their site are Unicast? I thought their only Unicast minis were the boxed set versions of the Space Crusaders.

No their newer ones have been UniCast which is why people have been reviewing them. Instead of saying "resin miniatures" I believe they state "single piece resin miniature". The only ones that I know are Themis, Nyx, Lamia and Calypso.

 Dark Severance wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Which minis on their site are Unicast? I thought their only Unicast minis were the boxed set versions of the Space Crusaders.

No their newer ones have been UniCast which is why people have been reviewing them. Instead of saying "resin miniatures" I believe they state "single piece resin miniature". The only ones that I know are Themis, Nyx, and Calypso.

Lamia is also on that list for sure.

 Dark Severance wrote:

 Lockark wrote:
All the space crusade mini's have been made with their new unicast tech, and people have already been reviewing them and backing up what prodos is saying about their tech.

To be fair, the whole line was not created with the UniCast system. The boxed game is created with it and a few of the stand-alone miniatures are currently being created with it. Those are indeed shipping (single miniatures). Some of the single miniatures have been multi-piece and created with their traditional casting method. That is most likely because they just worked out the kinks and I expect the rest to be converted over to the UniCast system but not all of the Space Crusade miniatures have.

Personally I am on neither side. I received all my AvP stuff already, really late but I did get it. I'm still in a wait and see. However I am all about playing devils advocate and making sure at least proper information is brought forward. Acting like absolutely everything they have done is horrible is just incorrect.

Good to know, I've seen a few reviews of their spoace crusade mini's and thought they were all unicast. TBH I think the design of the mini's is horrible, but the tech being demonstrated by them is crazy.

I also want to mention I was in the original Warzone Kickstarter, and was in the very last wave of stuff getting shipped out. It's the reason I would not sujest to ever get involved with a Prodos RAN Kickstarter. I am 100% sure they will ship out the AVP backer's stuff in time, but do feel the whole running out of money for shipping thing looks REALY bad on their part. That's something that has caused other kickstarters to fail in the final days. That totally is something worth criticising them for. But it is good that they are established enough that they are trying to fix the problem.

But sujesting that they are lieing about the unicast tech because of the missteps of the AVP kickstarter is a face palming leap of logic.

 Lockark wrote:
Lamia is also on that list for sure.

That is correct based on the description. I have edited my post to include it. I wasn't going to rego through the whole list to find them so just listed the ones I knew from memory.

 Lockark wrote:
TBH I think the design of the mini's is horrible, but the tech being demonstrated by them is crazy.

On the designs I would have to agree but I've covered that in other posts already.

 Lockark wrote:
It's the reason I would not sujest to ever get involved with a Prodos RAN Kickstarter. I am 100% sure they will ship out the AVP backer's stuff in time, but do feel the whole running out of money for shipping thing looks REALY bad on their part. That's something that has caused other kickstarters to fail in the final days. That totally is something worth criticising them for. But it is good that they are established enough that they are trying to fix the problem.

But sujesting that they are lieing about the unicast tech because of the missteps of the AVP kickstarter is a face palming leap of logic.

I highlighted and underlined the important part that I agree with. Anything that Prodos is running, I would definitely agree. As a company though that has been working behind the scenes for many other Kickstarters however, they have done really well.

I don't agree with the decision or fully understand the reason for the delays on the final parts of the Kickstarter stuff. Having dealt with contracts with IP holders before, there is probably a lot more that can't be said. From an outside standpoint, I'd assume they are not utilizing other company funds to it and only utilizing funds generated by AvP for it. I can understand that because as a company they have to still focus on things that generate revenue vs what appears to be something they are going to abandon when the license expires. I don't agree with the decision but I can at the very least understand it the why behind it.

Has anyone got a unicast mini on their collections and if so how easy is it to clean mouldlines and such? Bendy resin? Fragile? As a consumer thats what I care about.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Has anyone got a unicast mini on their collections and if so how easy is it to clean mouldlines and such? Bendy resin? Fragile? As a consumer thats what I care about.

I time stamped the video were BoW start showing off some close ups of the mini's. Not much of a review, but gives a idea of what the mini's are like. They do have abit of bend to them, I imagen to help them get out of the moulds.

https://youtu.be/sC3VMmFZH7k?t=1h44m8s

I can't seem to find some of the written reviews I've seen agien.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Has anyone got a unicast mini on their collections and if so how easy is it to clean mouldlines and such? Bendy resin? Fragile? As a consumer thats what I care about.

Look at the pics I posted above. From that website "...able to cast each of these as a single piece. It’s technically very impressive. The detail is sharp and the casting crisp. I’ve done nothing any of these – they’re straight out of the packet. Clean up looks straightforward and nothing out of the ordinary."

It appears like the minis you'd get in the boxed games for Doom, Gears of War, Blood Rage, etc... A rubbery, bendy mini... (I think, from what I am reading and seeing)

see this too http://www.gamewire.belloflostsouls.net/prodos-unicast-revolutionizes-miniature-industry/

Okay, so they are a little soft and bendy, not hard and brittle. I was wondering about that as well, though I assumed they must be somewhat bendy to get out of the mold (though obviously the mold itself is flexible).

Now, if somebody could invent plastic miniatures without mold lines, that would really be some game-changing technology.

I'm not sure if rubbery is the right word, because the details on the space crusaders mini's seem to hold the detail better. They look bendy to some degree for sure, but not realy "rubbery".

Humm not sure of what I see there. Looks like some of those have warping issues ( looking at the base of the last picture, guy on the left) I wonder how easy are those to fix, if the resin has memory its going to be a pain if not impossible.

Also does unicast revolution = having attached bases? Because thats going back to metal bases done many decades ago.

Another thing is this is not exactly practical for a painter, I mean good for them that they can cast shields on the miniature but good luck painting the undercuts. Not even going to digress on non existent customization.

Sorry this all may be technical very groovy but I see NO advantages for me personally. A pass on this revolution.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Humm not sure of what I see there. Looks like some of those have warping issues ( looking at the base of the last picture, guy on the left) I wonder how easy are those to fix, if the resin has memory its going to be a pain if not impossible.

Also does unicast revolution = having attached bases? Because thats going back to metal bases done many decades ago.

Another thing is this is not exactly practical for a painter, I mean good for them that they can cast shields on the miniature but good luck painting the undercuts. Not even going to digress on non existent customization.

Sorry this all may be technical very groovy but I see NO advantages for me personally. A pass on this revolution.

There's a few companies (at least) still casting with bases on... though I didn't see anywhere that this is a requirement. As a point of fact, for board game pieces, this is downright fantastic. I just mentioned how flat I thought some of the most recent CMoN miniatures for their newer boardgames were looking and this would be an answer to that.
Likewise, if it's bendy, then it's probably soft enough that you could cut the base off with a hobby knife. As to the painting thing.. this allows things to be cast as single piece with undercuts. That doesn't mean they will be single piece with undercuts, but more importantly, I don't really understand why a model being single piece would be such a barrier. Most Bones miniatures are single piece and frankly kinda crappy in detail. That doesn't stop James Wappel, Victoria Lamb, or Jen Haley from painting them up to tournament level paintjobs. I mean, reading your post it just looks like you're trying your best to tear this down... but the things you're saying don't make sense. If someone does have a logical argument against this then fine but I think that's predicated on understanding the intended use of the technology in the first place. Which IMO, is most applicable to board game pieces or lower cost figures aimed primarily at the same audience as Reaper's Bones.

 Lockark wrote:

Sining wrote:
I'm curious what's the end game for the backers of AVP. AFAIK, Prodos is doing shipping in batches cause they basically have no money. But they are shipping.
So...warning people from ever buying their games or models or anything does what? Other than drying up their cashflow and basically ensuring you don't get your KS stuff?

Saying that prodos is lieing about their uni-cast system is just makeing you look dumb, since people already have products made with this tech on their hobby desks RIGHT NOW. All the space crusade mini's have been made with their new unicast tech, and people have already been reviewing them and backing up what prodos is saying about their tech.


I just want to point out agien. All the issues and "past" with prodos is around their kickstarters. They ship and deliver reliably to company partners AND their web orders. None of the people complaining are from web orders, it's from prodos ran kick starters. When partnered with other companies who are doing KS'ers, they always derived on their end to the company. I know your angry, but nothing your saying applies to what we're talking about here.

If this thread was about a prodos kickstarter, I would understand the warnings. Heck, I would be posting right now warning people to not touch a prodos ran kickstarter with a ten foot pole.

Sorry to pick only this quote out, but I'm too lazy to go back and highlight them all.

Many of the AVP KS backers who still don't have their merchandise, or who are paying more to get it have every right to be here. It is putting positive pressure on Prodos to resolve the issues or lose more money in further lost sales. I applaude the backers who are diligently dogging Prodos as that is the community policing that DakkaDakka has always done and has helped me out of a few jams in the past.

As for this thread being about the casting process and it is aimed at the companies and not at us meer mortals who are the end buyers. I'd like to point out that you posted on a community forum where the majority of people here are the end customer and not the game producer designers, so you opened the can of worms and there's no turning back now. If you just wanted to let companies know about this great project then maybe find a community of game designers instead of the player base.

Along those lines any game designer thinking of using Prodos should know that they have a toxic name now in the industry. I was interested in the upcoming kickstarter for blackwater gulch until I saw that he was going to be using Prodos for manufacturing........I'd rather give my money to Tony Reidy now and ask him to produce something for me.

As to no complaints from customers who have ordered online from Prodos and all issues have only been from the KS of AVP, maybe you all should visit the Prodos thread. I saw at least one complaint about an online order missing parts and it taking over a month to get parts from Prodos. There was also Mantic during the KOW2 shipping that blamed not getting enough of the Blaine on lizard thing from Prodos. Prodos was a secondary source for the model after they couldn't get enough good ones from another company, but the time lead on them was attrocious and at one point was stated that no more would be coming. Also many companies won't air their dirty laundry out in a gaming forum about having issues with a producer (Except Poalo Parente , Dust and their distributor who's name eludes me currently), so we have no real knowledge if your assertion is accurate about how great they are.