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I was wondering if there is any alternative to White Dwarf? I'm pretty sure GW stopped their other agazines ages ago but are ehre any that deal with multiple games or an online magazine?

Also if I started a blog/online magazine type thing would people be interested in writing and submitting articles for it? And would people be interested in reading it. And would anyone have any idea if there would be any legal complications? Like could I use pictures of GW products without their permission, or only if I own them myself? Would it not be allowed to have adverts to other games, etc? I am no expert in this kind of thing so it would start out as a basic project which would hopefully improve with time. And final question, on this front, would people want it to focus on just GW games, or other miniature games or a wide variety of (and I hate using this word) "geeky" stuff, focusing mainly on war gaming and miniatures but with other stuff that people might find interesting?

I was also wondering how much do people contact and pressure GW about their rules? I know they are known to be stubbourn but companys tend to bow to overwhelming pressure from fans (especially when it cna be seen to correlate with a drop in revenue).

GW stock prices are up 40% so even though people on here like to complain people are still buying the product as lets face it its the best product out there (no finecast rants please).

Magazine wise try unseen lurker out its online and in print and is a good alternative, if a little thin on the ground.

Yep personally I think the miniatures are, on average, head and shoulders above most I've seen from other ranges. The price is ridiculously high though and high price dosn't allways mean that people are buying it, the prices could be pushed up to keep making the same profits as they did before with a bigger market share with their now smaller share. But this isn't the issue here.

Thanks I'm browsing their site now. What are they like for the "hobby" side of things?

Wargames Illustrated is a good general wargames magazine.

If you want good advice, don't buy direct from GW, you can get your hobby fix much MUCH cheaper than buying from GW direct.

Personally, I would recommend the following two sites:
Maelstrom Games
Dark Sphere Games

Both offer very good discounts on GW RRP, and will introduce you to companies that produce the same (and better) hobby tools and accessories than GW for lower prices again. However I will say that the GW hobby tools are of a fairly good quality, but mostly you are paying for the brand on them (I bought a damn fine craft knife from staples for £2.99, GW equivalent is a lot more). The tools can also be a bit gimmicky (the 'mould line removal set' anyone?).

As for the rules, there's not a lot we can do about that, GW have always said that the rules are there to push the miniatures, they are first and foremost a mini company, and the rules are there only to sell minis (hence why various versions tip the balance slightly in favour of large (expensive) monsters and large (expensive) blocks of infantry.

elspedo wrote:GW stock prices are up 40% so even though people on here like to complain people are still buying the product as lets face it its the best product out there (no finecast rants please).

And I suppose McDonald's makes the best hamburger?

It's not the best product. GW is the most established product. There's a difference.

azazel the cat wrote:

elspedo wrote:GW stock prices are up 40% so even though people on here like to complain people are still buying the product as lets face it its the best product out there (no finecast rants please).

And I suppose McDonald's makes the best hamburger?

It's not the best product. GW is the most established product. There's a difference.

Absolutely.

Leigen_Zero wrote:hence why various versions tip the balance slightly in favour of large (expensive) monsters and large (expensive) blocks of infantry.

Indeed. This is why the mechanized 5th Edition is all about the transports: The Rhino is the main transport for almost half of the armies, and it also happens to have the worst dollar-to-point ratio in 40k, coming in at $33 US for a 35 point model

Well if you are talking about a well painted, finsihed miniature which dosn't have any dfects I think GW is really good looking. I know there have been problems with their finecraft range but that is a seperate issue. Most completed GW models I see look great.

But please that's not what this thread is about and I can see plenty of threads spread over Dakka where this debate about GW being crap/the best is allready raging.

On a positive note, the general complaining about the corporate entity that is GW shouldn't distract you from what is a fun game.

I started playing again a couple of years ago (rather than just collecting expensive toys ) and have really enjoyed playing 40K. I may start playing WFB this year if I can paint my FoW armies.

Re complaining, the GW production cycle seems somewaht monolithic to me. By time the do the codices and redo the rules tastes could have changed from what they wanted a year or so ago. I would not expect a rapid change no matter what we say...........unless their bottom line is in danger.

azazel the cat wrote:

elspedo wrote:GW stock prices are up 40% so even though people on here like to complain people are still buying the product as lets face it its the best product out there (no finecast rants please).

And I suppose McDonald's makes the best hamburger?

It's not the best product. GW is the most established product. There's a difference.

That's your opinion, my opinion is GW "make the best toy soliders in the world" FYI airfix is far more established at making toy soldiers yet the actual quality of the models/materials is sub GW.

oh and i prefer burger king


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ReturningPlayer wrote:
Thanks I'm browsing their site now. What are they like for the "hobby" side of things?

Unseen Lurker is very good hobby side, they usually have a hobby corner style section with pages dedicated to various conversions, painting tips etc as well as articles on making gaming tables etc in certain issues.

Definitely worth a look in my opinion.

Leigen_Zero wrote:If you want good advice, don't buy direct from GW, you can get your hobby fix much MUCH cheaper than buying from GW direct.

Personally, I would recommend the following two sites:
Maelstrom Games
Dark Sphere Games

Further to this, if you make the effort, there are astounding bargains to be had on ebay even on BNIB stuff. Wait two/three months after a initial release and then swoop in and pick up all those impulse purchases for cheap

elspedo wrote:"make the best toy soliders in the world"

Nope, they really don't. They make some fairly solid kits (their plastic kits are exceptional), but they have problems with adding way too much "stuff" to a model just for the sake of cluttering it, and their proportions are horrendous. I'd say that the above companies, although much smaller, make much better models.

I would add to the list the Carnevale range. Whilst pricey, the figures are superb and the level of detail is outstanding especially when rendered in metal.

elspedo wrote:
That's your opinion, my opinion is GW "make the best toy soliders in the world" FYI airfix is far more established at making toy soldiers yet the actual quality of the models/materials is sub GW.

I'd say it was an opinion based on ignorance of the wider miniatures hobby. GW really aren't near the top for quality at all, they are a good quality and ubiquitous. But 'the best in the world'? Don't be too quick to parrot the company line.

elspedo wrote:GW stock prices are up 40% so even though people on here like to complain people are still buying the product as lets face it its the best product out there (no finecast rants please).

Magazine wise try unseen lurker out its online and in print and is a good alternative, if a little thin on the ground.

I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure their stock is up 40% because of the video game Space Marine.

azazel the cat wrote:

elspedo wrote:GW stock prices are up 40% so even though people on here like to complain people are still buying the product as lets face it its the best product out there (no finecast rants please).

And I suppose McDonald's makes the best hamburger?

It's not the best product. GW is the most established product. There's a difference.

Right on, but I do love me some McDonald's.

The thing is, when you are talking about playing other game systems, they will eventually die.

In the end, GW core products have more longevity. I can still use my Chaos Space Marines from 10 years ago in the current edition of 40K.

If I was playing other games, they would likely be sitting on the shelf, because I probably wouldn't be able to find anyone to play with. Essentially, they become board games, instead
of a living miniature game.

Dead Games: Warzone, Vor, Void, Crucible, Chronopia (my personal favorite game next to 40K. I still have 6 armies for it), Mage Knight, Silent Death,
Plastic Battletech, Confrontation, AT-43, Star Wars Miniatures, D&D Miniatures, Dreamblade, Celtos, Leviathan. I am sure there are a lot more I have left out.

Now most of the above are great games, especially Chronopia, but trying to find other players is like finding a needle in a haystack. This list doesn't even touch on
all of the dead GW specialist games.


Current games that I expect to be dead within the next 5-10 years: Infinity, Anima Tactics, Flames of War, all of the Spartan Games, Dark Age, Monsterpocalypse,
Heroclix, Malifaux, and possibly Warmachine\Hordes. Warmachine\Hordes may be the only game that will survive, and that is not certain IMO.

azazel the cat wrote:

elspedo wrote:GW stock prices are up 40% so even though people on here like to complain people are still buying the product as lets face it its the best product out there (no finecast rants please).

And I suppose McDonald's makes the best hamburger?

It's not the best product. GW is the most established product. There's a difference.

I have to agree with this statement. There is a ton of very very good model manufacturers out there. Scribor does some awesome work (imo) also Studio McVeys' Sedition Wars line is very very nice. I think their Vangards would make awesome IG proxies.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

elspedo wrote:
That's your opinion, my opinion is GW "make the best toy soliders in the world" FYI airfix is far more established at making toy soldiers yet the actual quality of the models/materials is sub GW.

I'd say it was an opinion based on ignorance of the wider miniatures hobby. GW really aren't near the top for quality at all, they are a good quality and ubiquitous. But 'the best in the world'? Don't be too quick to parrot the company line.

Exactly the reason I don't like posting on dakka, I put my opinion:

Opinion-a PERSONAL view, attitude, or appraisal.

Across and because it doesn't match the view of an internet warrior with a cartoon girl sucking an ice pop as his avatar I get called ignorant.

Goodbye dakka.

I have to say that the issues about hobby magazines has a lot to do with the readily available cornucopia of resources available at your fingers with the internet. While I do wish GW would start making White Dwarf more hobby oriented and less sales oriented I do have to concede that I can probably find anything theyd ever possibly print on the net in various different interpretations and and styles.

TheNewMexicanGeneral wrote:I have to say that the issues about hobby magazines has a lot to do with the readily available cornucopia of resources available at your fingers with the internet. While I do wish GW would start making White Dwarf more hobby oriented and less sales oriented I do have to concede that I can probably find anything theyd ever possibly print on the net in various different interpretations and and styles.

Very good point.

NoArmorSave wrote:The thing is, when you are talking about playing other game systems, they will eventually die.

In the end, GW core products have more longevity. I can still use my Chaos Space Marines from 10 years ago in the current edition of 40K.

If I was playing other games, they would likely be sitting on the shelf, because I probably wouldn't be able to find anyone to play with. Essentially, they become board games, instead
of a living miniature game.

Dead Games: Warzone, Vor, Void, Crucible, Chronopia (my personal favorite game next to 40K. I still have 6 armies for it), Mage Knight, Silent Death,
Plastic Battletech, Confrontation, AT-43, Star Wars Miniatures, D&D Miniatures, Dreamblade, Celtos, Leviathan. I am sure there are a lot more I have left out.

Now most of the above are great games, especially Chronopia, but trying to find other players is like finding a needle in a haystack. This list doesn't even touch on
all of the dead GW specialist games.


Current games that I expect to be dead within the next 5-10 years: Infinity, Anima Tactics, Flames of War, all of the Spartan Games, Dark Age, Monsterpocalypse,
Heroclix, Malifaux, and possibly Warmachine\Hordes. Warmachine\Hordes may be the only game that will survive, and that is not certain IMO.

so what everything? I really don't think GW, in its slipping popularity, is going to somehow toss all the other games, that are gaining a good foothold, aside
warhammer just isnt that good

elspedo wrote:Exactly the reason I don't like posting on dakka, I put my opinion:

Opinion-a PERSONAL view, attitude, or appraisal.

You posted a statement, not an opinion. Let me remind you of what you posted:

elspedo wrote:GW stock prices are up 40% so even though people on here like to complain people are still buying the product as lets face it its the best product out there (no finecast rants please).

Opinions begin with "my opinion..., IMO..., I believe..., etc." Your statement does not.

elspedo wrote:Across and because it doesn't match the view of an internet warrior with a cartoon girl sucking an ice pop as his avatar I get called ignorant.

Goodbye dakka.

Welcome to the Internet, elspedo

You really don’t have to preface everything you say with IMO/IMHO for it to be clear it is your opinion.

It's a discussion board, its nearly all opinion....IMHO.

Back on topic being Off-topic - Damn NoArmourSave (there, I spelled your name right for you ), you are a little pessimistic there mate. Also I thought that Battletech was still going strong, they just released a 25 year anniversary version.

I don't see FoW dieing out anytime soon, it seems to be the obligatory WW2 these days with the only market visibility anything like GW.

There are quite a few companies out there which seem to have a well-established player base and aren't going anyway soon. Battlefront is 10 years old this year, Privateer Press had its 10 year anniversary last year. Both of those are, or have for some time, been branching out from being pure miniatures game companies too. Battletech has changed owner-publisher a few times, but is still going strong.

In addition, we have a number of new companies that seem to be going strong as well. Spartan Games is only three years old, but have filled a void within the miniatures gaming scene that others (see Dreadfleet) don't seem to be able to exploit. Corvus Belli has been doing Infinity for 6 years now soon, and had 15mm lines before that; the current Infinity edition really seems to have hit the jackpot. Wyrd has only had Malifaux out for 2 years, but they've been making miniatures for 6 years.

Also, older lines are getting makeovers - Dark Age recently woke up again, as did Hell Dorado. Target Games went under, but as far as I know the Warzone/Chronopia lines were selling fairly well; it was their print publications that led to the restructuring.

Overall, I think we are living in a golden age of miniatures gaming as online presences are helping spread what might once have been niche games. It might be the last gasp before the entire hobby dies out, but as it is, I think we are seeing an expansion of the miniatures gaming hobby overall.

Leigen_Zero wrote:As for the rules, there's not a lot we can do about that, GW have always said that the rules are there to push the miniatures, they are first and foremost a mini company, and the rules are there only to sell minis (hence why various versions tip the balance slightly in favour of large (expensive) monsters and large (expensive) blocks of infantry.

There's plenty you can do about the rules if you're playing with a group of friends. People seem supremely allergic to house-ruling these days.

All through playing 40k with my brother and other friends, we've changed rules we didn't like to what we thought they worked better as, even down to allowing strange army list alterations. Opponents permission still of course - we don't act like total douches towards each other. For example, my brother has, ever since 2nd edition Codex Assassins, run a Vindicare in his Imperial lists. It's just something he does. With Grey Knights not allowing allies and the WD Sisters codex not having Assassins at all, we just let him use the Vindicare choice from Grey Knights in his Marine and Guard lists. No harm. We also house rule things like wound allocation, terrain effects, etc to what we want them to do.

Maybe it's the tournament mentality a lot of people bring to message boards, but it's disappointing to see so few people treat the rules as a starting point.

-Loki- wrote:
There's plenty you can do about the rules if you're playing with a group of friends. People seem supremely allergic to house-ruling these days..

Having been both a basement-dwelling house-ruling gamer with my group of friends, and having played in larger shops and clubs with a considerably larger group of people, I can definitely tell you what is most interesting. The "problem" is that those public, larger scenes requires uniform, tight rulesets in well-designed games suitable both for casual and competitive play to operate effectively, get new people into the games and grow a good, friendly athmosphere. The advantages over circle-of-friends playing is that you have a much larger circle of players, far more interesting games, and *gasp* aquire new friends.

NoArmorSave wrote:
In the end, GW core products have more longevity. I can still use my Chaos Space Marines from 10 years ago in the current edition of 40K.

Not if you wanted to play them in any of their stores you can't.

Also, funnily enough, I can still use my Cygnar and Fallschirmjager armies from 10 years ago in the current editions of their respective games... Go figure...

What was that about anime girl sucking on a lollipop?



I will say, if the likes of Warmachine/Privateer Press do go under, then we are all in trouble - most likely it will mean that the entire industry is probably about to croak.

Loki wrote:Maybe it's the tournament mentality a lot of people bring to message boards, but it's disappointing to see so few people treat the rules as a starting point.

I agree entirely. The rules are there as a guideline, nothing more, and for GW that has been a central tenet of their design ethos going back to the very beginning of the company.

elspedo wrote:GW stock prices are up 40% so even though people on here like to complain people are still buying the product as lets face it its the best product out there (no finecast rants please).

Their stock price isn't up 40%, their profits are, and most of that is because of a payoff. They are in fact selling less miniatures now than they have been since the LoTR movies came out.

And you can say that they have the best plastic miniatures and I'll probably agree, their non-plastic miniatures are mostly crap compared to every other major manufacturer out there. And even in their plastics, their newer releases have all been "too busy" for my licking...