Figured I would return and get the ball rolling like I did in 5th ed. This is to be a tactica thread for the discussing and sharing of ideas and experience. Please keep this in mind and that what I am posting is purely my take on where the Tau stand with the new rules. If you disagree, then please do so politely.
6th ed is a pretty big change and will require more adaptation of our armies than a first glance would suggest. To help speed up the adapation process, I am creating this thread as a form of reference to be used until the Tau get their update(Guessing within 1&1/2 years, am hoping for April next year to make a clean 7 years of this one but won't be suprised to see them post-poned until April 2014).
There will be First, a brief overview of how I think that 6th ed will effect the Tau. Then Second, discuss where the wargear and units stand. Third, will be to finish with some build ideas and table top tactics.
After that I will leave the floor open for others to add/discuss new options.
*Colour Key:
Yellow = Item or unit changed by 6th ed to be improved overall
Orange = Item or unit changed/affected by 6th ed but, overall stayed about same or remained useful/points efficient(Well as pts efficient as anything in this old 'dex can be). Basically moved laterally.
Red = Item or unit changed to be worse overall and/or now possibly questionable choices. (Also used to remove mistakes)
Cyan=Acknoledgements, annoucements and Headings.
No Colour means no real change
6TH ED I am very positive about 6th ed. It is designed in a manner that works very well with the Tau style of Ranged Mobilty Combat or Manoeuvre Warfare.
The positives are an increased focus on shooting(Overwatch and reduced cover saves), unit positioning(New wound allocation of closest models) and 2 out of 3 deployments will allow the Tau army to actually benefit from its agility.
The negatives of 6th ed, so far, are increased movement and that most othe armies received one of the Tau's signature tricks(Shooting effectively on the move).
After a few games, I feel confident in saying that the 5th ed Tau style of castling is only viable for 1 turn in the "Hammer and Anvil & Vanguard Strike deployments and completely useless in the "Dawn of War" deployment. We are going to have to actually move our units from first turn on in most scenarios/games. Again, this is a very different edition that not only significantly changed the Tau but also our opponents armies. New tactics will have to be developed to deal with not only the increased biker, jump and the new flyer lists...but also the new game restrictions on how much of your army can be reserved.
BATTLESUIT WARGEAR
1)ASS- Broke even because of new S&P. Yes, you now move normally in the movement phase but the S&P USR prevents the unit from both running and/or using Overwatch in the turn that you use the ASS. This and Snap-fire mean that the ASS is not an automatic choice for Broadsides.
2)Blacksun Filter- Now negates Night Fight completely and whole unit benefits from one model equipped with such.( Huge buff to Broadsides, Hammerheads, Fire Warriors and Pathfinders)
3)Bonding Knife- Better, but not really needed for units numbering 8 or less. New regroup rules are no negatives until unit is under 25%. At 8 models that means no penalty until only one model left.
4)C&C node- Still useless/gone
5) Drone Controller/Drones- Drones just became much better for Tau teams. They can perform "Look out Sir", be placed to where they almost always are the closest model for wound allocation and.....................The new Sweeping Advance rules allow the unit trying to escape to use the highest single initiative in the unit. Drones with their I4, just gave the Tau an even chace of escaping most SM's.
6)Ejection System-Now good for saving a couple of VP in missions that give bonus for killing warlord. (Especially with Challenges)
7)Failsafe Detonator- Same as before.
8)Iridium Armour- Big Buff, rule changes just made 2+ save much better.(Most PW's are AP 3 now). Still keeps the D6 assault movement, (so no 2d6 2+ armor assault).
Thanks to Luford for pointing out that I had failed to note the movement stayed the same here.
*Note-Needs faq-ing due to old wording in the rule.
9)Markerlights- Can now Snap Shot while moving but can not help boost other models Snap Shots. Kind of broke even here until we get a new Faq or rulebook.
10)Multi-tracker- Still the same and is useful depending upon player build philosophy. Actually, with Snap Shots, this wargear is now in a tight race with Twin-linking as to being the go to trick. So its the same old question, more dice or re-rolls.
11)Posi-relay- New reserves rules leave this wargear not quite as useful. I have taken this item religiously in 5th ed but, now view it as optional.
12)Shield Generator- Same as before but less needed due to Look out Sir rule. (Shield and gun drones just got that much better.)
13)Stimulant Injector- Went sideways here. FNP save was nerfed from 4+ to 5+ but is now good against AP 1 & 2 weapons. Only Insta-death blows through FNP now. Up to player build philosophy here.
14)Target Array- Target arrays are not allowed to modify snap-fire/overwatch. Otherwise are the same.
Reason for this is that it ADDS +1 to BS but the rule book states that Fixed values are applied last.
Thanks to DKvistS for noticing the modifier rules wording here.
Due to the TA's not improving Snap Shots, I'd say that they almost broke even in this ruleset except that Twin-linking, flamers and multi trackers got a lot better. In the competition for Hard-points on the crisis suits though, I feel that they will be used less in this edition.
15)Target Lock- Huzzah, the lost the Target Lock was an error now corrected by the 1.1 faq. The Target lock is now basically unchanged but does become a bit more useful in 6th ed due to units using the ADL gun emplacements.
16)Vectored Thrusters-A little better. Now the whole unit might Hit & Run due to the new rules. There is a question as to whether the restriction on the unit being IC or single model only applies to purchasing or does it in fact limit the model to only having H&R when by itself. Thanks to Tun-Tau for catching this one.
VEHICLE UPGRADES
Blacksun Filter- Now negates Night Fight completely and whole unit benefits from one model equipped with such.( Huge buff to Broadsides, Hammerheads, Fire Warriors and Pathfinders)
Decoy Launchers- Improved but, depends on the AP of the Weapon that Pentrated and if you are playing Big Guns never Tire Mission,
It comes down to just how many points should be invested in something that "IS" most likely going to be wrecked(Glanced to death).
Disruption Pod- Huzzah, 1.1 Faq made these rediculously good. The Dis pods now confer shrouded onto the vehicle for hits from shooting attacks more than 12" away. This stacked with the Jink save, that flat-out happens in the movement phase and that sensorspines allowing the vehicle to make use of terrain for cover and we now have the games most durable mobile shield wall for our troops units.(In your face all of you naysayers that told me the dis pod would never change to the shrouded rule )
Flechettes- Stayed mostly the same but with wounds coming from the front and random charge length, there may be an occasion where the assault will fail due to wounds caused.
Multi-Tracker- The new move and shoot rules combined with the multi-tracker puts us back at 4th edition level of fire power.
Sensor Spines-Mostly the same but can greatly increase the vehicles survivability and with the new Obscured/cover and terrain rules.
Again, How much to invest.(May Improve to yellow later.)
Target Array- Stayed the same.
Target Lock- Stayed the same but are better due to the new vehicle movement and shooing rules. Multi-trackers and Target Locks allow the Hammerhead to be more mobile/aggressive.
WEAPONS
Airburst Fragmentation Projector- Stayed the same. Note- Can not be used for Snap Shot or Overwatch.
Burst Cannon-Got a little better this edition because of its volume of fire and the Overwatch/Snap Shot rule. The only real negative is that the Tau already have plenty of S5 AP5 weapons. I'd say that they are good on the units that already come equipped with them(Stealth Teams, D-fish) and on the Hammerhead. Not so much on Crisis suits unless doing the 3 weapon load out on a Commander/Team leader thing.
Cyclic Ion Blaster-Got better this edition because of its volume of fire and the Overwatch/Snap Shot rule. Now makes for very good pairing with either the Plasma Rifle or Burst Cannon.
EMP Grenades- Buffed by new Assaulting Vehicle rules. Must remember that until we get a FAQ saying otherwise, EMP grenades are not the same as Haywire and as such do not have the ability to be thrown. For now they are weaker and more expensive versions of Haywires that don't get to use the special rules for Haywires
Flamer- Overwatch makes this the perfect anti-assault weapon for the Tau Crisis suits. Take as the secondary weapon when buying Missiles, Fusion or Plasma if you are aggressive with your suits.
Fusion Blaster- Improved by the new Deepstrike rules that allow better survivability for teams equipped with them.
Kroot Gun-Improved by new Rapid Fire rules and the Overwatch USR
Kroot Rifle-Improved by new Rapid Fire rules and the Overwatch USR
Missilepod- Roll changed to glancing vehicles to death. Aside from this, remained the same.
Ion Cannon- Improved by the glaces/Hull points rule. Hurt by the AP3 vehicle chart. Overall an improvement.
Photon Grenades- Better. Might need to be taken due to the amount of time FWs will spend outside of their transports
Whoops- The entry for Defensive grenades does indeed specifically mention Photons.
Thanks for catching my mistake Jadenim. I missed it the first time around
Plasma Rifle- Stayed same/broke even for the Tau. Might see more use due to overwatch and that terminators will be more prevalent.
Pulse Carbines-Lost effectiveness compared to other weapons available
Pulse Rifles- Improved by new Rapid Fire rules and the Overwatch USR
Railgun-Reduced vehicle coversaves and the AP1 damage chart overall means that the weapon has improved..
Railgun (Hammerhead)-Reduced vehicle coversaves and the AP1 damage chart makes for an overall improvement compared to other AT weapons, The new rules for Blast weapons makes it even better.
Rail Rifle- Slightly improved by Overwatch/Snap Shots. Still feel they mostly broke even because of the handi-capped manner in which we get access to them and with the loss of the target locks on the teams that could take them.
Seeker Missiles- Stayed the same due to faq stating that Markerlights effects do not work during Shnap Shot/Overwatch.
SMS- Marginally better, because the defensive weapon rule is gone. Also think the Focus Fire rule will help for shots on an enemy units back end when they leave models straggling outside of cover. opponent will leave a unit front half in cover, back half out of cover trusting in the Front to back wound allocation and that you don't have LoS. (This of course is mainly good against GEQ and hoardes.)
UNITS
Broadsides- They got better in this edition and are now great with the return of their target locks. The abiliy to move and Snap Shot means less reliance on the ASS. Put a Blacksun filter and Hard-wired Target lock on the Team Leader, take multi-trackers as the Teams wargear and sprinkle in two shield drones, Presto, you've got a much better unit than before.
Crisis Suits- They about broke even in this edition. With new regroup rules teams of 2 or 3 are both good/efficient points wise.
Pros:
1) Can assault move after deep strike.(Makes deepstriking better in general and allows for safer use of Fusion Blasters).
2) Can Assault move after Run move. Aside from walkers Jet-packs are the only unit that can now do this. (Potential total movement is 9"-24" if not shooting, This mean that if we really have to get somewhere we average about 16" instead of the old 12" XXX DOH- Unit does not get Hammer of Wrath.XXX
Thanks Pottsey, I read the Jump-infantry section like the one in 5th ed where they were Jump-infantry with different movement.
Cons:
1)Everybody can shoot full distance on the move now. This means that the crisis teams with their 18-24" range weapons will almost always be in rapid fire range and thus subjected to much more small arms fire than in the past. (Plasma just became as good of a friend to our enemies as it has been to us. This is a big nerf, IMO)
2)Unreliable movement. 2d6 assault is just not reliable for the purposes of how the crisis teams are designed.
*The two negatives combined mean that now, if we roll good and fall back to where we are safe, it means that we won't be in range the next turn.
Devilfish- This is tough. I'll say that they went sideways here. Didn't really lose any ground compared to other armies transports. Just a less survivable enviroment for vehicles overall. I would say that it has been buffed by that it can now, when equipped with multi-tracker, move 12" and fire everything. But, being limited to S5 AP5 short range weapons and a moderate # of shots just means that it is only good for shooting small light infantry squads and AV10. This edition looks to be favouring more Horde, Heavy Infantry and AV12+.
Note*-On the bright side, the Jink save stacks with the now Faq'ed to be much improved Disruption pods stealth on attacks from more than 12" away. This means that when equipped with dis pods and sensor spines, the Tau vehicle will get 3+ to 2+ coversaves for most of the game. It is for this reason that the D-fish is now rated as improved.
I suggest being be aggressive with getting your troops where they need to be while you have the transports. Once they are in assault range they will fold like a cheap card table.
BTW, Jetpacks have the bulky rule which mean they count as 2 models for purposes of transport........Will have to see if the rulebook restriction gets faq'ed out later.
Fire Warriors -Much Improved with the new Rapid Fire rules and with Blacksun Filters on the team leader helping the whole squad.
With how easily transports are popped in this ed(Necrons) I recommend the Shas'ui Team lead with HWbsf and possibly a HWdc w/gundrone. Bonding knives are mostly unnecessary until the team numbers 9 or more models.
Hammerheads-Both Ion Cannons and Railguns are better under these rules. Also, It is back to its 4th ed goodness of moving 12" and firing everything when equipped with the Multi-tracker.
Down side? Much like the Devilfish, "How much do you want to spend on a model that is easily glaced to death by Gauss weapons, Auto Cannons and missile spam ?".
I see many players opting for 2 broaside teams of 2 and one Ion head in games under 2000 pt.
Note*-Hammer head is now much more viable due to the 6th ed 1.1 faq concerning disruption pods. Look at 2 hammerheads with 1 squad of 3 broadsides in larger games.
Kroot- Buffed by the new regroup/sweep advance rules and the new RF rules might make the Krootox viable .
Nerfed by reduced cover save and the new template rules.
I'd say that they about broke even.
Pathfinders- Improved with Snap Shot and that the markerlights won't have to focus as much on removing cover.
Their Devifish is more of a limiting factor now and will most likely will take some different wargear.
Piranha *Upgraded due to 1.1 faq.* Between the new vehicle squadron damage allocation rules, disembarkation rules and the new Disruption pod faq, The Pirahnas are pure win.
*Note-Gun drones have to disembark before the vehicle moves if you want to move the vehicle/squadron more than 6". On the bright side, they disembark up to 6" away from hull and can still run and assault move.
For now, Piranhas continue to be the most efficient use of flechettes.
Sky Rays- NO SKYFIRE as of yet. WTF? Will stay rarely played until they get a purpose that makes them worth taking.
(If GW is listening, think razorbacks style transport for Pathfinders)
Sniper Drones- Overall Improved. (Now even better due to the 6th ed 1.1 faq returning our targetlocks) Stealth Field Generators now convey the Shrouded and Stealth USR's while losing the 2d6x3 spotting distance. Will have to see if using the new wound allocation (By castling/shielding the FW/drone controller inside of his sniper drones) makes the team more survivable than before.
Maybe place them on a table edge or with back against a LOS blocking wall.
*Note-Could now be the Tau unit of choice to man the ADL gun emplacement in non allied armies. Will have to see how they work versus other options.
Stealth Teams- Lost the can't be targeted outside of 36" and their target locks but gained +3 to cover and have 4+ cover in the open. Much better survivability but begs the question,"Give up an elite slot for more S5 AP5 shooting?". May be usable as protection for the commanders. Will revise later after some play-testing.
XXXJetpack units do not have Hammer of WrathXXX
Edited correction. Thanks Pottsey and elrabin. (Feel kind of meh here until stealthsuits get other weapon options. Will try and see how works with glancing and other rules and will revise later.)
Vespids- They are improved and never have been really bad. The question is are they good enough to compete with the other choices in the FA slot. They got closer with these rules but not quite there yet, IMO. I say try them after you've bought your Pathfinders. They are fun for killing meq's.... .
BUILD IDEAS
A) Fire warrior Teams with a model count of 8 or less, can easily do without Bonding Knives. Spend the points on the cheaper BSF. Even at 9 models, you don't get under 25% until the unit has only 2 models left.
Recommend FW teams of: Shas'ui w/ hwbsf & hwdc+gun drone and 5-6 FW.
B)Twin-linking of certain weapons on battlesuits make them more effective on shooting and painful for your opponent to assault. (My suggestions are to Twin-link Plasmas, Flamers, or Missile Pods.)
C)Flamers are a good choice for Crisis Teams equipped with Fusion Blasters. Up to the player whether they want to twin link the FB's or the Flamers. Both have their benefits.
D)Take Photons Grenades because of how much time the unit will spend outside of their transposrts. Buy EMP's for the Team leaders only if it is allowed(You can buy emp's for the whole team but this eats up a lot of points).
E) Sticking an Ethereal in with one of your Broadside teams will make them Fearless. A chancey move but if you move your army up, you can mitigate lossing units if he dies. (For you sickos that want to kamikazi the ethereal If you stick him in front he takes all the wounds for the unit until dead... Just make sure that you have a leadership buff to that unit. Shadowsun might be worth while in this situation.)
F)Joining a Crisis commander or two to a Stealth team looks to make for a fairly solid unit. (Hint: Play around with the Special issue wargear and 1 Shas'O and 1 Shas-el. Failsafe detonator on one and Vectored thrust on the other (If Vectored thrust can join other teams)
G)Look to build more infantry oriented lists with minimum transports
(1-2 Pathfinder D-fish and 1 Hammerhead)
H)A unit of 10 Kroot and 2 Krootox fit into a Devifish. Have them jump into the Pathfinder D-fish while leaving your FW out on foot. Get the Kroot into position to RF the Kroot Gun on some rear/side armour and disembark.
I)Piranhas are nice but if strapped for points, remember your Gun drone squadrons.
J)Drones are much better(Duh), but not just the ones on controllers but also the independent gundrone squadrons. Here is my point:
Take 2 Crisis Commanders w/ a shield drone each and join to a gun drone squadron totaling 4 drones , (You can do this with regular commanders. It is also a way to run Farsight Cheap but if you do, put to shield drones on the other commander to keep the unit at T4 ).48 points for all those ablative wounds without tying up a crisis team by having them on Baby sitting duty is nice.
K)On your Crisis teams, don't hesitate to run them at 3 strong(With at least one drone). Your going to want to have that upgrade character that can occasionally challenge and force the opponents PF guy to only killing him.
L)When building your teams with Missile Pods, design them to lay out 3 glances a turn if unsupported by markerlights. This is because the pathfinders are going to be moving (hopscotch, one team on one turn and the other on the next turn.) With the PF's moving they are going to generate only a 2-3 hits a turn with 2 teams of 5.
M)Stealth teams are better but still a lot of points and an elite slot for something that just doesn't have that much damage output. The best use I've found for them is to take 3-4 stealthsuits, one with FB and a Team Lead w/ 2 gundrones, then have them escort a crisis commander that is equipped with a FB and TLBC. This is a solid line-blocking unit that has decent anti-tank.
N) With Tanks being so easily glanced to death in this edition, I think that the Tau are stronger as a foot/jump list. In an 1850 point list, outside of troops, I'm looking to run maybe 3 Crisis teams, 2 PF squads(Gives 2 DF) and one Hammerhead(Ion or Rail, both are good). Then run 2 broadside teams of 2 with Plasma, shield drones and multi-trackers.
Will edit add/remove suggestions depending upon how things evolve.
BUILD IDEAS-ALLIANCES
The First that I would recommend is a simple alliance of Tau and Eldar.
Take a Jetseer w/ Fortune, Doom and Guide. Add Spirit Stones, a Singing Spear and put into a Guardian Jetbike squad that has 6 Guardians and a Warlock (with Embolden, Destructor, or Enhance.....take your pick). Done.
From there you can bring in a War Walker Squadron or a unit of Harlies to baby sit the Broadsides. Really you can do a lot from this starting point.
*Note, if choosing Psychic powers for the BRB, The divination table seems to offer the most chance for force multiplication.
BTW, Eldar are the best choice for manning your fortifications (I suggested some unit combinations in the Fortification section that follows this one).
Based upon recent Feedback, Farsight is prettygood when combined with allies. Lets hope that they remove the madatory point limit so that he can be taken as the ally as opposed to having to be the main force.
*Note- Due to personal prejudice , It will be up to you guys to come up with SM ally suggestions. If you guys come up with something good, I will add it in to this section.
IHateNids wrote:What, you mean a Tac Squad w/ Lascannon, Flamer & Razorback? Combat Squad the Lascannon into cover with some Broardsides, the Flamer onto an Objective, drive around going 'pew pew' with the Razorback. Topped off with a TDA Captain w/ TH/SS Nators in a LR?
or have i completely missed the point?
Ah, I think you nailed it pretty good IHateNids.
Will bring more ideas, soon. Please feel free to discuss here. Anything good that we come up with will go into the Tactica list with credit given to those that contributed.
BUILD IDEAS-FORTIFICATIONS
After much consideration, IMO, the Tau should only look at the Aegis Defense line.
I will admit that my reasoning for this is in part due to the Tau fluff of not valuing such fortifications.
The other reasons are that the Aegis line fits the Tau playstyle and will probably work better with their Eldar Allies*.
*Put a Fortune/Guide Farseer joined to a Ranger Squad(Have the Farseer manning the gun)
or
take 3 Dark Reapers and upgrade the exarch with Fast Shot and maybe Crack shot. Drop farsser in to twin link the Icarus that is now either Heavy 1 ignores cover or Heavy 2. Enjoy.
ON THE TABLE
Warlord Traits- Roll on either Commander or Strategic Traits list. Personal traits have no real value for Tau armies. Many of you are stating a preference for the Strategic traits, I am leaving the Commander traits as a suggestion because, IMO, it offers just as many buffs. It is a matter of playstyle.
In Dawn of war you just cannot castle up. the new improved movement, fly over abilities and tesla make doing so almost an auto-lose. The other deployments give a bit more breathing room but, seriously, mobility is the name of the game in 6th.
Reserving 1/2 of your troop choices and maybe a heavy against shooty or non-horde armies can help to give you some walk on objective seizing units later in the game. Use the Posi-relay to hold them back while you start moving your army away from your deployment zone objectives or be prepared to move out in the first turn. This is to draw the enemy away so that you can bring the units on safely and maybe create a cross-fire situation.
Full Ninja Tau is dead in this ruleset. This is due to limitations on how much of your force you can leave in reserve. Instead you use the Posi-relay to contol when a few key units hit the field.
Remember that now your Kroot are now deadly when assault rear armour 10. Crisis suits are good to glance rear armour 11 if your shooting fails you.
Units with 4 drones taken as wargear should deploy and position themselves with 2-3 drones in front and at least one in the rear. this means that if your team is assaulted and then looses the assault, you get to use I4 in the sweeping advance roll-off.
Take basic Team leaders (Shas'ui/Shas'vre) in your units. In assault they can challenge. If the opponent accepts then they fight seperate. This is a way to keep that one CC monster hidden in the plain Jane unit from wiping the whole squad with his 8 re-rollable PW attacks.
Imo, we are back to using Kroot to deal with the Necron Lords and basic troops. The easiest way to make sure that a Lord doesn't get back up is to have the spot were he fell covered by your units. seeing as they get back up at the end of every phase, this means that you have to either assault him or run a unit onto the spot he fell after you drop him from shooting. If the lord cannot be placed within 3" of where he fell without being within 1" of an enemy model, he cannot attempt to repair protocol.(Just an idea)
There are more ideas and tricks that I use but is getting late and want to let you guys start to discuss/comment and add your views/ideas.
Please, no Tau bashing, trolling or such. I want for this to be an open discussion and a thread for sharing of ideas of how to make an old codex work until it gets updated.
Sky Rays- NO SKYFIRE as of yet. WTF? Will stay rarely played until they get a purpose that makes them worth taking.
Seeker missles count as BS5, even against flyers due to the ruling on it in the FAQ. So long as you can get a 6 on those markerlight shots on a flyer, it'll hit.
The ruling states that ANYTHING that would reduce it to BS1, it still fires at BS5, so thus it fires at BS5 at all times with no penalty.
*Pinches Self*
Am I dreaming? Or are you really back, it has been a long time since I've seen you poke your head around here!
Anyways to get the ball rolling.
Since, IIRC shooting at flyers is snap-shot unless you have sky-fire, targetting arrays can mitigate that a fair bit, as they effectivley double the amount of hits we get, I daresay since most flyers are AV10-11, a team of suits with T/L missiles should be able to take down any squadron with ease if you give them targetting arrays.
Additionally as jet packers still move in the assault phase like jump infantry, we can, in the assault phase move our battlesuits onto impassable terrain (as long as they fit) making them unable to be assaulted by anything without jump packs or jet packs.
That's all I have for now, will be checking this thread regularly.
First off, Hi FF. Been a long time, good to see you come out of the woodwork.
Love that you are doing another one of these threads, last one was really good.
BTW, nice catch on the Targeting arrays boosting our Overwatch and snap-fire.
Also good catch on the grenades not getting the rules until faq'ed. Was really looking forward to using those rules but finding out now is better than later.
As to Tactics, Ideas and C&C......Let me get back to you on that after a few more games.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Sky Rays- NO SKYFIRE as of yet. WTF? Will stay rarely played until they get a purpose that makes them worth taking.
Seeker missles count as BS5, even against flyers due to the ruling on it in the FAQ. So long as you can get a 6 on those markerlight shots on a flyer, it'll hit.
The ruling states that ANYTHING that would reduce it to BS1, it still fires at BS5, so thus it fires at BS5 at all times with no penalty.
I think that for the 5 or so marker hits you will get in the 2-3 turns that the pathfinders are alive and ignoring the rest of the enemy that is wiping you from the board, that you could just as easily buy them for your other vehicles without wasting the Heavy slot or the points on a Sky Ray.
Also, Imo, it is better to spread the seekers around so that you don't lose them on a first turn lucky shot on the only vehicle with them.
I think the new shooting rules will make Fireknife teams a little better vs meq. Before, I had to weigh the ramifications to firing both plasma and missiles at taq squads, I would often find myself making the sergeant or whatever important trooper take a save while his squad died. Now rolling 5 plasma wounds is indeed 5 deaths.
I've noticed that with the new vehicle rules str 7 Missile pods aren't half bad at killing transports now.
focusedfire wrote:
Crisis Suits- They about broke even in this edition. With new regroup rules teams of 2 or 3 are both good/efficient points wise.
Pros:
1) Can assault move after deep strike.(Makes deepstriking better in general and allows for safer use of Fusion Blasters)
2) Can Assault move after Run move. (Potential total movement is 9"-24" if not shooting, This mean that if we really have to get somewhere we average about 16" instead of the old 12")
3) Hammer of Wrath allows assaulting as an option on lone models that are a threat when they get to launch the assault.
I am a bit confused 1 and 2 we could do before in 5th so not new pros and we do not have hammer of Wrath as suits are not Jump infantry. Battlesuits are infantry (jet) which does not give Hammer of Wrath.
Stealth suits are better than you think, commanders with drones can join them and gain 2+ cover saves and it looks like outflank and infiltrate. Farsite is perhaps now the best CC special IDin game as he allows preferred enemy against shooting orks and has ignore armor against 2+
Twin link plasma with flamer is a nightmare for people to charge and a Stealth based army can have almost the entire army with 2+ cover saves.
EDIT: Sniper teams also get that 2+ cover save.
EDIT2:
I don’t have the rulebook right now but why do you lower BS to 1 then add on target array? Wouldn’t it be add on target array then lower to BS1 for snapfire/over watch?
6) Your point with ejection is valid, but also wouldn't this save ongoing warlord effects for alittle longer, guess he is still our warlord even though he lost his suit.
13) The rulebook states that the order of modifiers are: multipliers, additions, and then fixed values. So I would say it goes bs3->TA->bs4->snapfire->bs1.
Im going to try games with a group of 10 kroots and 3 krootox to se if they can compete with deathrain squads.
I know that a group of krootox only make 1/3 hits of a deathrain squad, but the extra range and wound count might make up for it, also they are scoring units.
Still think Im going to have my firewarriors sitting in a devilfish.
I'm not sure why you think Photon grenades don't work; OK you can't throw them but they are actually used as the example for defensive grenades.
Also, do you think the principle from the old FAQ still applies, in that you only need one model to be equipped with grenades for the entire squad to benefit. (Still seems to be in the new GKFAQ)
Vectored retro-thrusters got a lot better- join a unit to give them all hit-and-run. I have a feeling a stealthsuit squad with a shas'o with vectored retro-thrusters is going to become our command squad set up.
Jadenim wrote:I'm not sure why you think Photon grenades don't work; OK you can't throw them but they are actually used as the example for defensive grenades.
Also, do you think the principle from the old FAQ still applies, in that you only need one model to be equipped with grenades for the entire squad to benefit. (Still seems to be in the new GKFAQ)
Yeah, photon grenades are explicitly stated as being defensive grenades in the codex. EMP grenades should function exactly as they did before (codex states they are used in assaults like grenades and meltabombs). For Firewarrior and Pathfinder teams, if you buy grenades (Photon or EMP), they must be purchased for the whole unit.
focusedfire wrote:1)ASS- Better because of new S&P rules but not an automatic choice for Broadsides due to Target Arrays.(Will cover this under TA's)
I think preferred the old rules. The new S&P rules prevent you from running and using overwatch. TL rails or TL plasma on overwatch is still pretty scary, particularly if your opponent is charging with a small number of models.
focusedfire wrote:13)Target Array- Just became the new Tau goodness until faq'ed otherwise. Reason for this is that it ADDS +1 to BS. Now in conjunction with Overwhatch & Snap-Fire. it has suits at BS 2. This creates a choice for Tau players on their:
This isn't true. With the way modifiers are applied (multiply, then add/subtract, then set), TAs or Markerlight boosts still leave the firing unit at BS1 when firing Snap Shots (including Overwatch).
focusedfire wrote:Crisis Suits- They about broke even in this edition. With new regroup rules teams of 2 or 3 are both good/efficient points wise.
Pros:
1) Can assault move after deep strike.(Makes deepstriking better in general and allows for safer use of Fusion Blasters)
Just like in 5th, Jet Pack Infantry can use their Jet Pack move in the Assault Phase after they Deep Strike. However, remember that the Tau Codex forbids units in XV8 or Stealth Suits from performing this move after a Deep Strike. So the only unit (that I'm aware of) that can take advantage of this rule are Gun Drones.edit: nevermind, this was removed in the FAQ. Fantastic.
And like others pointed out, Jet Packs are no longer a sub-class of Jump Infantry, so we don't get Hammer of Wrath.
focusedfire wrote:Stealth Teams- Lost the can't be targeted outside of 36" but gained +3 to cover and have 4+ cover in the open. Much better survivability but begs the question,"Give up an elite slot for more S5 AP5 shooting?".
A full team of 6 with some drones might make Hammer of Wrath work for this unit. Then again, maybe not.
I'm really beginning to like the idea of bringing a Stealth Team. With bigger deployment zones (short table edges and diagonal), if your opponent sets up on the line you should have enough space to Infiltrate a small unit behind your opponent (even in LOS). This gives you Line Breaker (as long as they live), and also allows them to shoot at rear armor 10/11. Many armies will ignore the Stealth Suits for a while, because Broadsides and Crisis Suits are pretty scary. 4+ cover in the open is fantastic, and if they can jump behind intervening cover, they get a 2+.
focusedfire wrote:Devilfish- This is tough.
The Dispod became useful only on first turn and when vehicle is stunned. Thing is that by the time the vehicle is stunned it is already wrecked or just about their. Hard to say if it is even worth 5 points.
The Decoy launchers are in the same boat. While they are much improved, just how many points should be invested in something that "IS" most likely going to be wrecked.
Sensor Spines can greatly increase the vehicles survivability and with the new terrain rules they can really help. Again, How much to invest.
The only ones I would recommend are Target array and Multi-track.(Same ol-same ol) Everything else will just have to be experimented with.
Disruption pod is still going to be a must-take, I think. It's not expensive to give one to all of your vehicles, and getting a guaranteed a 5+ on turn 1 well worth it IMO.
Tun_Tau wrote:Vectored retro-thrusters got a lot better- join a unit to give them all hit-and-run. I have a feeling a stealthsuit squad with a shas'o with vectored retro-thrusters is going to become our command squad set up.
I just found out IC without infiltrate cannot join squads with infiltrate :(
focusedfire wrote:Devilfish- This is tough.
The Dispod became useful only on first turn and when vehicle is stunned. Thing is that by the time the vehicle is stunned it is already wrecked or just about their. Hard to say if it is even worth 5 points.
The Decoy launchers are in the same boat. While they are much improved, just how many points should be invested in something that "IS" most likely going to be wrecked.
Sensor Spines can greatly increase the vehicles survivability and with the new terrain rules they can really help. Again, How much to invest.
The only ones I would recommend are Target array and Multi-track.(Same ol-same ol) Everything else will just have to be experimented with.
Disruption pod is still going to be a must-take, I think. It's not expensive to give one to all of your vehicles, and getting a guaranteed a 5+ on turn 1 well worth it IMO.
Seems like a waste of points as you only need to give the tank 25% cover to get 4+ and after that you only need to move 1” a turn to boost WS and get a free 5+ save. Disruption pod are only useful for 1 turn and if you cannot get 25% cover.
EDIT:
Characters have precision strike I think it was called a mini sniper rule. All IC, battlesuits team leaders, Vespid leaders and Shapers among others have on a roll of 6 you can choose which member of the target squad to hit. Say good bye to FNP priests.
Hi Krellnus, missed you too. Same goes for you Captain Avatar.
I will only have time to be in here intermitently but really feel that this thread is needed. It has already cleared up a few of my mistakes and shown where there will be a need for some FAQ's. I think with the help of you guys and the rest of dakka, we can come up with a very good reference thread for the Tau players.
Now to answer some questions and acknowledge some good catches by the other posters.
Pottsey wrote:
focusedfire wrote:
Crisis Suits- They about broke even in this edition. With new regroup rules teams of 2 or 3 are both good/efficient points wise.
Pros:
1) Can assault move after deep strike.(Makes deepstriking better in general and allows for safer use of Fusion Blasters)
2) Can Assault move after Run move. (Potential total movement is 9"-24" if not shooting, This mean that if we really have to get somewhere we average about 16" instead of the old 12")
3) Hammer of Wrath allows assaulting as an option on lone models that are a threat when they get to launch the assault.
I am a bit confused 1 and 2 we could do before in 5th so not new pros and we do not have hammer of Wrath as suits are not Jump infantry. Battlesuits are infantry (jet) which does not give Hammer of Wrath.
Stealth suits are better than you think, commanders with drones can join them and gain 2+ cover saves and it looks like outflank and infiltrate. Farsite is perhaps now the best CC special IDin game as he allows preferred enemy against shooting orks and has ignore armor against 2+
Twin link plasma with flamer is a nightmare for people to charge and a Stealth based army can have almost the entire army with 2+ cover saves.
EDIT: Sniper teams also get that 2+ cover save.
EDIT2:
I don’t have the rulebook right now but why do you lower BS to 1 then add on target array? Wouldn’t it be add on target array then lower to BS1 for snapfire/over watch?
1)We could not assault after DSing in 5th.
They put in the Faq's that Jet-packs could assault move after DSing "unless otherwise specifically noted in the codex". Our Codex specifically said that out battlesuits could not. It was the biggest joke of thew 5th ed Faqs. Really teed a lot of us Tau players off.
2)Jet-packs and walkers are the only unit types that can make assault based moves after running in this book. They took assault after run away from most other units. This makes this ability a buff.
DKvistS wrote:6) Your point with ejection is valid, but also wouldn't this save ongoing warlord effects for alittle longer, guess he is still our warlord even though he lost his suit.
13) The rulebook states that the order of modifiers are: multipliers, additions, and then fixed values. So I would say it goes bs3->TA->bs4->snapfire->bs1.
Good catch on the modifiers. Question now is that on pg 7 under the special vs basic rules section it says codex trumps rule book. Also snap-fire overwatch wording is the dreaded "Counts as" as opposed to specifically stating it is BS1. *Sigh* This will end up being a Rules debate so until there is a faq, its best to ask your opponent what they think before trying to use.
I have changed the OP to reflect your catch here.
Jadenim wrote:I'm not sure why you think Photon grenades don't work; OK you can't throw them but they are actually used as the example for defensive grenades.
Also, do you think the principle from the old FAQ still applies, in that you only need one model to be equipped with grenades for the entire squad to benefit. (Still seems to be in the new GKFAQ)
Good catch on the photons, I have noted this in the OP credit given to you. I just missed the reference in my skimming/quick read of the rules.
As to buying Photon grenades for individual models???? By the wording I'd say no on Fire Warriors but maybe on Pathfinders?? Maybe on emp's?? I would wait for a better FAQ before trying to do so.
Tun_Tau wrote:Vectored retro-thrusters got a lot better- join a unit to give them all hit-and-run. I have a feeling a stealthsuit squad with a shas'o with vectored retro-thrusters is going to become our command squad set up.
Good catch, was tired when writing OP and completely missed the Vectored thrusters. Have edited the op with credit given to you.
Very good point with the Commander joined to the Stealth team.
elrabin wrote:
focusedfire wrote:1)ASS- Better because of new S&P rules but not an automatic choice for Broadsides due to Target Arrays.(Will cover this under TA's)
I think preferred the old rules. The new S&P rules prevent you from running and using overwatch. TL rails or TL plasma on overwatch is still pretty scary, particularly if your opponent is charging with a small number of models.
focusedfire wrote:13)Target Array- Just became the new Tau goodness until faq'ed otherwise. Reason for this is that it ADDS +1 to BS. Now in conjunction with Overwhatch & Snap-Fire. it has suits at BS 2. This creates a choice for Tau players on their:
This isn't true. With the way modifiers are applied (multiply, then add/subtract, then set), TAs or Markerlight boosts still leave the firing unit at BS1 when firing Snap Shots (including Overwatch).
focusedfire wrote:Crisis Suits- They about broke even in this edition. With new regroup rules teams of 2 or 3 are both good/efficient points wise.
Pros:
1) Can assault move after deep strike.(Makes deepstriking better in general and allows for safer use of Fusion Blasters)
Just like in 5th, Jet Pack Infantry can use their Jet Pack move in the Assault Phase after they Deep Strike. However, remember that the Tau Codex forbids units in XV8 or Stealth Suits from performing this move after a Deep Strike. So the only unit (that I'm aware of) that can take advantage of this rule are Gun Drones.edit: nevermind, this was removed in the FAQ. Fantastic.
And like others pointed out, Jet Packs are no longer a sub-class of Jump Infantry, so we don't get Hammer of Wrath.
focusedfire wrote:Stealth Teams- Lost the can't be targeted outside of 36" but gained +3 to cover and have 4+ cover in the open. Much better survivability but begs the question,"Give up an elite slot for more S5 AP5 shooting?".
A full team of 6 with some drones might make Hammer of Wrath work for this unit. Then again, maybe not.
I'm really beginning to like the idea of bringing a Stealth Team. With bigger deployment zones (short table edges and diagonal), if your opponent sets up on the line you should have enough space to Infiltrate a small unit behind your opponent (even in LOS). This gives you Line Breaker (as long as they live), and also allows them to shoot at rear armor 10/11. Many armies will ignore the Stealth Suits for a while, because Broadsides and Crisis Suits are pretty scary. 4+ cover in the open is fantastic, and if they can jump behind intervening cover, they get a 2+.
focusedfire wrote:Devilfish- This is tough.
The Dispod became useful only on first turn and when vehicle is stunned. Thing is that by the time the vehicle is stunned it is already wrecked or just about their. Hard to say if it is even worth 5 points.
The Decoy launchers are in the same boat. While they are much improved, just how many points should be invested in something that "IS" most likely going to be wrecked.
Sensor Spines can greatly increase the vehicles survivability and with the new terrain rules they can really help. Again, How much to invest.
The only ones I would recommend are Target array and Multi-track.(Same ol-same ol) Everything else will just have to be experimented with.
Disruption pod is still going to be a must-take, I think. It's not expensive to give one to all of your vehicles, and getting a guaranteed a 5+ on turn 1 well worth it IMO.
1)Good catch on the S&P taking away run and overwatch. Don't think that I will ever take ASS now unless they faq that due to the wording we turn the S&P on and off on a turn by turn basis.
2)Target array rules are now in question because of the use of the words "counts as" as opposed to "will fire at" and because on page 7 and what is said about basic and special rules(Basically that codex trumps rulebook). I have noted that they are in question in the OP.
3)Have corrected the Hammer of Wrath mistake in the OP.
4)I too am beginning to dig on the Stealthsuit possibilities.
5)On Disruption pods....Depends on if you are reserving your pathfinders/devifish. If in reserve they come in moving. If you don't then spend the 5 points. Thing is that I see Sensor Spines being taken again in order to get the vehicles into cover. Eventual the gain versus loss gets to be to much loss in points. Its "is" only 5 points but 5 points here and there can add up. Thats why I think that they went from mandatory in 5th ed to optional in 6th ed.
@Everyone, Thanks for the input so far. Please keep it coming. Also feel free to post which tactics are working in your games.
Later, FF
Could someone with the rulebook double check the rules for commanders and infiltrate? I believe it says commanders (IC) without infiltrate cannot join squads with infiltrate for deployment. But can IC join Stealth Teams after development? Snipers teams make might a good turn 1 protection for IC’s.
A way around this might be for a commander to start with the snipers and split off swapping to the Stealth team after deployment?
Pottsey wrote:Could someone with the rulebook double check the rules for commanders and infiltrate? I believe it says commanders (IC) without infiltrate cannot join squads with infiltrate for deployment. But can IC join Stealth Teams after development? Snipers teams make might a good turn 1 protection for IC’s.
A way around this might be for a commander to start with the snipers and split off swapping to the Stealth team after deployment?
Sorry.
Ok, just found it in the infiltrate rule . It appears you can do it if you come in from reserves however, it only says they can't join during deployment...or am I wrong?
I'd concur with that Tun_Tau, it only excludes ICs from deployment, not moving on, although it will probably be argued over.
@Focusedfire; if I read the codex correctly a Shas'ui can take EMP grenades as an individual, from the armoury. Doesn't work for Photon grenades unfortunately, as they aren't individually listed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the tactics front, I think the Strategic Warlord Traits look like the best table for Tau. I think all of the traits on that one fit well with Tau's play style. The command and personal traits look a bit too CC oriented most of the time.
15)Vectored Thrusters-A little better. Now the whole unit gets Hit & Run due to the new rules. Though the restriction against drones is still there so no I4 fallback. :( Thanks to Tun-Tau for catching this one.
Vectored retro-thrusters can only be bought by a single model without a drone controller or drones. Just a initial restriction, it never stoped an IC from joining a unit that has drones and now that the special rule is confered to the rest of a squad in the new rule set it is a lot better.
I hope they give the skyray both interceptor and skyfire, it makes perfect sense, and would make it an insanely good choice.
I like that we can buy a bastion, and sit some firewariors in it for a great objective holder, with a twinlinked interceptor lascannon with a blacksun filter.
I also think that night-fight is a great strategy for us, as we reap the benefits without any of the downsides. This is by far my favorite new bit of 6th. Finally our armoury upgrades make sense!
thanks for this valuable resource. I'm very excited about the newfound viability of stealth suits and their ability to shield ic's. I hope to be able to contribute something useful when i get a chance to read the rules properly in a few days time.
Jadenim wrote:I'd concur with that Tun_Tau, it only excludes ICs from deployment, not moving on, although it will probably be argued over.
@Focusedfire; if I read the codex correctly a Shas'ui can take EMP grenades as an individual, from the armoury. Doesn't work for Photon grenades unfortunately, as they aren't individually listed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the tactics front, I think the Strategic Warlord Traits look like the best table for Tau. I think all of the traits on that one fit well with Tau's play style. The command and personal traits look a bit too CC oriented most of the time.
I Agree with you interpretation of the Grenades
As to Warlord Traits, Both Command and Strategic Traits trees are pretty good for the Tau. All Tau Players should stay away from the Personal Traits.
Tun_Tau wrote:
15)Vectored Thrusters-A little better. Now the whole unit gets Hit & Run due to the new rules. Though the restriction against drones is still there so no I4 fallback. :( Thanks to Tun-Tau for catching this one.
Vectored retro-thrusters can only be bought by a single model without a drone controller or drones. Just a initial restriction, it never stoped an IC from joining a unit that has drones and now that the special rule is confered to the rest of a squad in the new rule set it is a lot better.
Actually, the Codex Specifically says for Independent Characters and Single member teams"Monats" with out drones only.
This could be a big YMDC debate as to whether the wargear is restricted for purchasing purposes only or does the wargear limit the team composition.
I'd advise that we take this one and the Target Array to the YMDC forum.
Also, unsure as to whether the IC will benefit from the Stealth team rules. It seems to imply that they will but was wondering if stating that one model gives to the whole unit is enough when looking at the IC section listed in the UST section.
Any thoughts on this?
Jadenim wrote:I'd concur with that Tun_Tau, it only excludes ICs from deployment, not moving on, although it will probably be argued over.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the tactics front, I think the Strategic Warlord Traits look like the best table for Tau. I think all of the traits on that one fit well with Tau's play style. The command and personal traits look a bit too CC oriented most of the time.
We don't get any psyker powers guys unless they are allies like Eldar or SM so why the comments on what's good for Tau?
Captain Avatar wrote:
I'd advise that we take this one and the Target Array to the YMDC forum.
Target Array doesn’t work with Snap fire/overwatch. Page 2 under rules section, look for modifiers. You do multiple, add/subtract then lastly set numbers. Following that rule it would be BS3+1=4 then set BS1 snapfire.
I see no problem with Vectored Thrusters. The only restriction is on buying it, not joining other units after development.As for unit I have not got to the IC pages yet. But surly an IC form a unit when they join a unit. If that is the case stealth and Vectored Thrusters should work.
Jet packs give relentless, which allows you to fire heavy weapons and move. Can't broadsides move and fire heavy weapons as normal now? Don't need ASS as far as I can see.
@Dracos- the XV88 suit doesn't follow jet pack rules, it's just infantry, always has been unfortunately.
@Ministry - I'm not quite sure of your meaning, but I think you're talking about psychic disciplines (which we don't get). I was referring to the warlord traits, which one of you HQ units has to take.
Jadenim wrote:@Dracos- the XV88 suit doesn't follow jet pack rules, it's just infantry, always has been unfortunately.
@Ministry - I'm not quite sure of your meaning, but I think you're talking about psychic disciplines (which we don't get). I was referring to the warlord traits, which one of you HQ units has to take.
Yeah, not sure why I didnt remember you get those! On that, I believe you only get one, but you could agree with your opponent that you each can take another or a third? I dont see mention on this in the BRB.
Jadenim wrote:I'd concur with that Tun_Tau, it only excludes ICs from deployment, not moving on, although it will probably be argued over.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the tactics front, I think the Strategic Warlord Traits look like the best table for Tau. I think all of the traits on that one fit well with Tau's play style. The command and personal traits look a bit too CC oriented most of the time.
We don't get any psyker powers guys unless they are allies like Eldar or SM so why the comments on what's good for Tau?
Say what??? I never typed any such thing, ...Lies....Lies....They are all Lies, I tell you. Seriously, please be a little more careful with your quotes. I have no problem being called on stuff I do Type/say....but misquotes can easily derail an entire thread.
@Tun_Tau: Aun'shi was awesome. Would actually be considered broken as a CC specialist in 5th and 6th ed. Not for his damage output but for his Tarpitting ability. He was WS5 T3 I5 4-5 attacks, had 3 wounds with a 4+ inv save.
He carried a Honour blade that was rending do to his skill and he had the parry ability. The parry ability let him set aside any number of his attacks and for each attack set aside to parry, every enemy model that was attacking had their attacks reduced by one. Note, that its not just the attacks against him but all attacks against the unit also.
I think it would be fairly harsh to rule against the vectored thrusters; besides we need all the help we can get!
Speaking of which, I've just re read the FAQ and it says to replace the crisis suit entry with " Crisis suits are jet pack infantry, as are any drones attached to them", which means they just got full relentless rules Handy if you want to throw a marker drone in there.
They always had full relentless rules.
Jump Infantry: Jet Packs in 5th were relentless.
If you want to try and use the ASS argument - all it did was grant Slow and Purposeful, which granted Relentless.
If the Relentless from the ASS works, therefore, the Relentless from being JI:JP worked, therefore, markerdrones with Crisis and Stealth Suits were also relentless.
Nope, just a product of the Night Vision USR; only one model required in a unit to give them the ability.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Ovion - that's technically correct, however the old codex description for the XV8 specifically excluded them (and by extension, any drones they took) from using heavy weapons with it.
I believe this was a product of 4th Ed. rules where they jet packs didn't get relentless and they had a codex specific "relentless light". Bizarrely in 5th Stealth suits got full relentless anyway as they didn't have the homebrew rules, they're just jet pack infantry...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also the old ASS rules were FAQ'd specifically to exclude attached drones IIRC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Grrr, trying to list build here and just noticed that my beloved pathfinders with rail rifles took a spectacular nerf! The loss of target lock hits them pretty bad and because they don't actually have the sniper rule they don't benefit from precision shot. I am not amused...
@ASS discussion
It has been FAQ'd that now broadside teams using their ASS can have the drones remain stationary and fire as normal.
Quite a buff if you give them marker drones.
Jadenim wrote:Nope, just a product of the Night Vision USR; only one model required in a unit to give them the ability.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Ovion - that's technically correct, however the old codex description for the XV8 specifically excluded them (and by extension, any drones they took) from using heavy weapons with it.
I believe this was a product of 4th Ed. rules where they jet packs didn't get relentless and they had a codex specific "relentless light". Bizarrely in 5th Stealth suits got full relentless anyway as they didn't have the homebrew rules, they're just jet pack infantry...
Also the old ASS rules were FAQ'd specifically to exclude attached drones IIRC.
The relentless-light didn't apply to drones anyway, so they were straight relentless.
But regardless, if relentless from ASS worked, then so must JI:JP
Iridum armor used to reduce the 6" assault move to d6". I guess now it reduced the 2d6" to d6" but it wasn't mentioned in the FAQ unless i missed something.
Luford wrote:Iridum armor used to reduce the 6" assault move to d6". I guess now it reduced the 2d6" to d6" but it wasn't mentioned in the FAQ unless i missed something.
You are correct. I had noted this in another thread but overlooked noting that the Iridium Armour stayed at d6 Assault move in the Tactica list/review.
I was reading that last night, it says you do a d6 move instead of just moving 6" in the assault phase. Well you don't move a flat 6" anymore, so I'm not sure how it's supposed to work, halve the 2d6 movement perhaps? Having said that, the way I always interpreted it from the fluff was that the extra weight slowed you down, so it was akin to giving you S&P, which in the new edition does not reduce your movement.
To be honest I don't think it's even worth taking to YMDC, as the rule works radically different to the previous edition; I think we need a straight answer from GW as to what (if anything) it does. Roll on FAQ version 1.1!
focusedfire wrote:Please from here, feel free to discuss ideas and strategies for builds and game play.
Also, Let me know what you how it is looking or if I have missed anything.
Ok, when taking Eldar as allies, "Do you think it is best to stick with the Codex Psychic powers or should we take a chance on rolling for the powers?".
If we roll, "Which Discipline, Telepathy or Divination?
I'm leaning towards rolling on the Divination tree but thats only if I am taking the Tau as the ally and running a main force of Eldar where I can have 2 Farseers(One that rolls and one that stays with the codex powers)
If the Eldar are the ally, then I think keep them with their codex abilities.
After playing a quick game last night, an aegis defense line is an incredible steal for 50 points, upgrade it with a quad gun if your expecting flyers.
Some ideas I was toying with, a unit of stealth with marker light drones in the aegis line, expensive but much more survivable then pathfinders. Also if the meta shifts more towards infantry, it might be worth considering putting 3 sniper drone teams in one of these, be a real pain to take them out.
I played with a bastion and a lascannon on top. It actually worked surprisingly well, and took a couple of the shots meant for my hammerhead and still didn't crack. I have to say though, a lascanon in my firewarriors was some of the best fun I've had in a while .
As far as the eldar allies go though, can't you only take a single allied HQ unit?
With closest to furthest shooting, drone controllers are awesome!
Drone up your steal suits, they become 50 points each, but are basically 3 wounds eternal warriors. (just keep the drones in the front and boom good luck shooting at the actual stealsuits and the carry around 4+ cover!!!)
I'm just going to end up taking 3 full squads of Fire Warriors (because overwatch from large amounts of fire warriors is terrifying, 2 pathfinder squads, some crisis suits, a broadside squad, and a couple hammerheads.
DakkaHammer wrote:I played with a bastion and a lascannon on top. It actually worked surprisingly well, and took a couple of the shots meant for my hammerhead and still didn't crack. I have to say though, a lascanon in my firewarriors was some of the best fun I've had in a while .
As far as the eldar allies go though, can't you only take a single allied HQ unit?
The FoC works like this:
Which means at 2000pts+, if you take 2 HQ and 4 Troops of your primary detachment, you unlock the rest of the FoC, and after taking the 2 HQ and 2 Troops of the allied detachment, you can use every slot on the above image.
This means you have a potential 6 HQ, 8 Elite, 16 Troops, 8 Fast Attack, 8 Heavy Support and 2 Fortification options to choose from. (unless you're nids...)
Frankly, I'm going to stick with similar lists to the ones I've been running - a few crisis suits, bunch of firewarriors, pair of hammerheads, 2-3 broadsides.
focusedfire wrote:Please from here, feel free to discuss ideas and strategies for builds and game play.
Also, Let me know what you how it is looking or if I have missed anything.
Ok, when taking Eldar as allies, "Do you think it is best to stick with the Codex Psychic powers or should we take a chance on rolling for the powers?".
If we roll, "Which Discipline, Telepathy or Divination?
I'm leaning towards rolling on the Divination tree but thats only if I am taking the Tau as the ally and running a main force of Eldar where I can have 2 Farseers(One that rolls and one that stays with the codex powers)
If the Eldar are the ally, then I think keep them with their codex abilities.
What da ya think?
I think Divination is the better bet. Its Powers all directly help our style of play. A Farseer in a unit of Fire Warriors with Foreboding and Prescience giving Overwatch at full ballistic skill and re-rolls of all misses will make your shooting more deadly and deter all but the hardest assault.
Or you use Prescience and Misfortune and shred a Marine unit in a single turn of shooting.
Telepathy has some nice powers but as a whole I think it is less useful.
I just had a game against assault vanilla marines/blood angels with the primaris farseer. It was funny, because he was afraid to take tests with his 3 psykers, and the first one he did got periled. The twin-linked hammerhead is pretty sweet, and even though i rolled a 3 for armor pen on a landie, it was still worth it. I managed to pull a draw without any broadsides.
I'm seriously considering using eldrad for the multiple uses of the single power, and four rolls on the tables. Divination seems to be by far the best for the Tau in my opinion.
I'm thinking fullsize Stealth Team with drone controllers and gun drones with eldrad and divination. Debating taking two fusion blasters, if I can roll up foreboding and misfortune just shove the unit down everythings throat. Put the blob right in the way of their assault units. Can I join my Battlesuite commander to the squad too? It would make a great target but use it accordingly you know.
30 str 5 shots with rerolls to hit and saves
On the reverse I can see Eldar taking a better Deathstar, take the full squad, put two psychers in there so you can get fortune and doom also.
focusedfire wrote:Please from here, feel free to discuss ideas and strategies for builds and game play.
Also, Let me know what you how it is looking or if I have missed anything.
Ok, when taking Eldar as allies, "Do you think it is best to stick with the Codex Psychic powers or should we take a chance on rolling for the powers?".
If we roll, "Which Discipline, Telepathy or Divination?
I'm leaning towards rolling on the Divination tree but thats only if I am taking the Tau as the ally and running a main force of Eldar where I can have 2 Farseers(One that rolls and one that stays with the codex powers)
If the Eldar are the ally, then I think keep them with their codex abilities.
What da ya think?
If you are going to trade in the codex powers then, I too believe that the Divination tree is the best for an Eldar/Tau alliance, Thing is, You take Doom, Guide and Fortune on a Jetseer w/Guardian Jetbike Squad. Add 1 warlock with either enhance or destructor. Take Singing Spears on the Warlock & Seer(Until they re-faq the Eldar). Use Doom on selected enemy target that you want to really hurt, then Markerlight same said target(cough*10 man termie squad*cough..cough).
Use fortune on the Bike squad to Keep them allive and on turns that you don't want to doom something then use Guide to boost one of the other Eldar units or the Jet-bike squad.
crazyK wrote:Good post, thanks for starting it FF. Also congrats on getting a rule named after you in this edition
I didn't see an entry for SMS. AFAIK it didn't change, but for completeness I though you should mention it.
Hay crazyK, thanks and yeah, gotta find a way to capitalize my dakka screen name.
As to the SMS, I will be adding to the OP after this post.
Pottsey wrote:There are two sets of rules for SMS in the FAQ and both contradict each other :(
The entries seem contradictory at first glance but they really don't deviate in a significant manner that I can tell.
To all Readers/Posters:
Anyway, Spent the past day or so, list writing. This was to see where the points and new abilities left us. What I've discovered so far is this.
Drones are much better(Duh), but not just the ones on controllers but also the independent gundrone squadrons. Here is my point:
Take 1 or 2 Crisis Commanders w/ a sheild dron each and join to a gun drone squadron, (You can do this with regular commanders or it is now a way to run Farsigth Cheap ).48-96 points for all those ablative wounds without tying up a crisis team by having them on Baby sitting duty.
On your Crisis teams, don't hesitate to run them at 3 strong. your going to want to have that Team leader character that can occasionally challenge and force the opponents PF guy to only killing him.
When building your teams with Missile Pods, design them to lay out 3 glances a turn if unsupported by markerlights. This is because the pathfinders are going to be moving (hopscotch, one team on one turn and the other on the next turn.) With the PF's moving they are going to generate only a 2-3 hits a turn with 2 teams of 5.
Stealth teams are better but still a lot of points and an elite slot for something that just doesn't have that much damage output. The best use I've found for them is to take 3-4 stealthsuits, one with FB and a Team Lead w/ 2 gundrones, then have them escort a crisis commander that is equipped with a FB and TLBC. This is a solid line-blocking unit that has decent anti-tank.
With how fragile Tanks are in this edition, I think that the Tau are stronger as a foot/jump list. In an 1850 point list, I'm looking to run maybe 3 Crisis teams, 2 PF squads(Gives 2 DF) and one Hammerhead(Ion or Rail, both are good). Then run 2 broadside teams of 2 with Plasma, shield drones and multi-trackers.
From there it is a matter of whether you want to play with your Kroot or your fire warriors.
Am also playing with a couple of lists that use Vespids and/or the Gun Drone squadrons.
Will post again soon with table top tactical ideas I'm playing with.
Just had the pleasure of fighting Tau. I normally table my Tau opponent by turn 3, but this time under 6th it was the other way round.
Shield drones and the new shooting rules make your units insanely survivable.
Broadsides with markerlight support on light vehicles - 2s to hit, 2s to penetrate, no cover saves, 50% chance of an Explode result?!?! Utterly devastating to my 5th ed. mechanised list. And the fantastic range and blacksun filter is just wicked for a substantial portion of the battle setups.
I bet you guys are laughing your heads off, and you've waited long enough to do so!
@Sethorly- We are better off. It will still take a bit to re-tool for the new edition because we have to see how the meta developes.
We have general ideas but it will still take time.
Just an FYI, Necrons in Hammer and Anvil deployment are still almost an auto win against Tau.
Played them in a 6th ed game and while it was better than playing against them in 5th. They still have too many tricks to use against the normal Tau list. Because of the Necrons, I'm bringing my Kroot out of retirement.
Figure that I will strip the necron lords down to one wound and then assault them. Doing this, means that they don't get back up if you have enough models to keep him from popping up within 3" of where you kill him. Remember, He can't pop back up within 1 inch of an enemy unit.
"The entries seem contradictory at first glance but they really don't deviate in a significant manner that I can tell. "
One bit says the target can count the benefits of cover they are in or touching. That to me reads if standing next to a wall get a LOS based cover. Another section says the opposite and that you only receive cover that is not based on LOS so touching something does not work.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sethorly wrote:
Broadsides with markerlight support on light vehicles - 2s to hit, 2s to penetrate, no cover saves, 50% chance of an Explode result?!?! Utterly devastating to my 5th ed. mechanised list. And the fantastic range and blacksun filter is just wicked for a substantial portion of the battle setups.
How is that any different from 5th? If anything it’s a little harder for Tau now as vehicles get cover much easier cover or auto cover for moving skimmers so you have to use marker light’s more than before.
focusedfire wrote:The entries seem contradictory at first glance but they really don't deviate in a significant manner that I can tell.
One bit says the target can count the benefits of cover they are in or touching. That to me reads if standing next to a wall get a LOS based cover. Another section says the opposite and that you only receive cover that is not based on LOS so touching something does not work.
It seem that way but the faq/errate is talking about area terrain, which gives cover that is no based on line of sight. Area terrain grants cover due to being what it is. If you are in area terrain and I can clearly see the whole unit, your unit still gets the benefit of cover that is equal to whatever was agreed upon for the terrain at the beginning to the game.
Slightly OT, but I think you've just invented a potential meme with you latest update FF; shnap shot. Say it in a Sean Connery Bond accent, it's awesome. I will be using this in all future games
This set up works as a "kan wall" as well as killing on average 7.6 Marines a turn, which is quite good. Plenty of cannon fodder (drones) in the front, and keeps your HQ safe from "Slay the Warlord!" hate Now that Hit and Run gives it to the unit, and Night Vision is given to the unit, the BSF and Vectored Retro Thrusters should (hope) give the whole squad H&R as well as Night Vision, seeing as night fighting is back, and hopefully in most games
Also if you get flanked you have 14 Gun drones worth of Look out sir
This set up works as a "kan wall" as well as killing on average 7.6 Marines a turn, which is quite good. Plenty of cannon fodder (drones) in the front, and keeps your HQ safe from "Slay the Warlord!" hate Now that Hit and Run gives it to the unit, and Night Vision is given to the unit, the BSF and Vectored Retro Thrusters should (hope) give the whole squad H&R as well as Night Vision, seeing as night fighting is back, and hopefully in most games
Also if you get flanked you have 14 Gun drones worth of Look out sir
Thoughts?
Well there's no point in the Target Lock as it doesn't do anything any more.
Personally I was thinking on going down the short range weapon route for the Shas'el with stealth team. Fusion blaster and burst cannon or flamer, just so that his weapons match what the stealth suits can carry in terms of range and preferred targets. I don't know what the board think of that idea?
Also I was considering throwing in at least one Marker drone; I know they're expensive, but the self-contained ability for the unit to strip cover saves could be very useful, particularly if combined with Focus Fire.
The 6 stealth/12 drone unit does look excellent however I really like the idea of infiltrating them - obv without shasel. This is consistent with the fluff, and means belting out 30 s5 shots from turn 1 - coupled with cover going to 5+ and wound allocation, I am excited about these guys vs hordes esp ig blob.
Stealth Suits have 3+ / 4+ Cover in the open meaning they are 2+ in basically any terrain - The drones also get Shrouded and Stealth.
@A town called malus - It was meant to be Team Leader not Target Lock
@jadenim - I chose the plasma rifle over the flamer because i dont think they will get into combat and the combatant live (as you can jet pack kite backwards etc) and also because of the punch it will pack, hitting on a 2+ with the squads markerlight, getting a precision shot means pick who dies! Mainly just for a punch on heavy troops, like a wolf guard term in a grey hunter squad.
Fusion blaster might be interesting, having 3 in the squad (if give 2 to them) for anti tank capabilities, as well as the ability to pop a transport and burst cannon the innards to death. Also you could move shas'el out of the squad during the movement phase, shoot Transport A, whilst the squad shoots Squad B, so 2 different targets, and then use assault move to move him back within 2 inches of the squad, meaning he has rejoined it!
@troy - Against an ork mob of 30, this squad is laughing
Jadenim wrote:Personally I was thinking on going down the short range weapon route for the Shas'el with stealth team. Fusion blaster and burst cannon or flamer, just so that his weapons match what the stealth suits can carry in terms of range and preferred targets. I don't know what the board think of that idea?
This^ is good.
My only problem with the Stealthsuits is the cost. I've been looking at a Team of 3 Stealthsuits w/TA + Team leader1 w/FB, TA and 2 Gun drones(MIght have to take Shas'ui to get the Character status?) Then add a Shas'el with Fusion Blaster, Burst cannon, Flamer, HWMT and HWDC with 2 Shield drones.
Comes in at about 294-ish points and becomes your deepstrike unit on missions where needed. Even at this point range Crisis suits might still be better.
with ap2 becoming gold dust and missile pods greatly benefiting from the hull points rules I can see fireknife being even more dominant loadout for crisis teams.
Perusing some batreps the new regroup rules help the low ld armies greatly.. Not only is the 6 inch prohibition gone, and we get to regroup at 25%+.. But our terrible leadership might become incredibly useful in terms of fleeing out of assault range.
5) Drone Controller/Drones- Drones just became much better for Tau teams. They can perform Look out Sir, be placed to where they almost always are the closest model and.....................The new Sweeping Advance rules allow the unit trying to escape to use the highest single initiative in the unit. Drones with their I4, just gave the Tau an even chace of escaping most SM's.
Drones also assume the Type as the model who controls them so if the model is a character the drone would be too.
Ok, It hasn't been decided as of yet but, I will comment of the possible "what if" Vectored Thrusters give H&R to units joined by model with the wargear.
Under such a ruling, there are some "Good to borderline broken/ stupid wrong " things that will be able to be done.
1)H&R Vespids-Not truly Stupid wrong broken, but really good to almost broken. Only question would be, "How does the unit move?" As Jet-Pack or as Jump pack?.
2)H&R Kroot- Decent, but not stupid wrong.
3)H&R Farsight- This would be pretty much Stupid Wrong.
4H&R Broadsides- Now THIS would be Stupid Wrong Broken. Two Crisis Commanders. One with Vectored thrusters the other with Iridium armour, 2 Shield drones, Stim injectors and Failsafe Detonator. Both commanders have TLplas or Plas/fusion. Note that one commander could be Farsight and if done then you just put all of the upgrades(Except drones) on the other commander.
Then join to Broadside team of 3(all with drones and plasma rifle upgrade).
Deploy forward and ram them down your opponents throat.
One weapon that I feel has a bit more practicality would be the airbursting frag projector. In my first 6th game I had a 'O with it and a CIB fire at a DE wytch squad including an archon with the 2+ invul until failed item. I placed the blast centered on him as we can pick any model, not just the spot that hits the most, and made him roll a save for each wound on the unit. Barrage killing center out can be useful for sniping with out relying on 6's to hit. (FYI he made every save, but it could have worked )
@darb: The blast centre determines whether or not the guys get a save for ordinance weapons. However this does not affect wound allocation - the standard in 6th is to remove the guys closest to the firer first.
In your example several wyches would have to take saves and die before the archon takes the 2+ (unless the archon happened to be closest to your commander, which is the sort of thing we will see alot more of in 6th ed).
I know what you're getting at FF, some of those combinations are rather bonkers, however 5th ed had its share of craziness (using Snikrot to infiltrate Ghazkull leaps to mind).
There will always be ways to break the rules, particularly with a codex as old as Tau's. I guess we just have to try and trust people not to abuse it.
I'd really like them to allow this because the Crisis/stealth combination feels like a really nice counter-assault unit that you can put up in people's face, a bit like the FW hazard suit. They fit the Tau play style by using firepower and manouvrability to win, rather than beating people around the head with pointy sticks
troy_tempest wrote:@darb: The blast centre determines whether or not the guys get a save for ordinance weapons. However this does not affect wound allocation - the standard in 6th is to remove the guys closest to the firer first.
In your example several wyches would have to take saves and die before the archon takes the 2+ (unless the archon happened to be closest to your commander, which is the sort of thing we will see alot more of in 6th ed).
pg34: barrage box, 2nd bullet point, "To determine whether a unit wounded by a barrage weapon is allowed a coversave, and when determining wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model."
I think I can snipe with a BS 5 flying claymore. Logic it dose not follow, but the rules it dose.
The Vectored Retro Thrusters problem, think i might've solved it?
Character Benefits from the Rule, he may not take drones and must be an IC.
He joins a squad during turn one, as he is a single IC/Unit in deployment, because he benefits from this rule so does the squad he joins turn one, as per the rule. The VRS upgrade does not state it doesnt affect others, it only states who can purchase the upgrade.
Orkaswampa wrote:
Character Benefits from the Rule, he may not take drones and must be an IC.
Even that line is not clear. Some read it as IC and Monet without drones can take the gear not that you have to fit both requirements. Thats how I read it kind of like saying firewarriors and pathfinders can take photons you don’t have to be both a firewarriors and pathfinder. So either a IC or a Monet can take the wargear meaning an IC can take drones but the solo none IC suits cannot take drones.
.
4H&R Broadsides- Now THIS would be Stupid Wrong Broken. Two Crisis Commanders. One with Vectored thrusters the other with Iridium armour, 2 Shield drones, Stim injectors and Failsafe Detonator. Both commanders have TLplas or Plas/fusion. Note that one commander could be Farsight and if done then you just put all of the upgrades(Except drones) on the other commander.
Then join to Broadside team of 3(all with drones and plasma rifle upgrade).
Deploy forward and ram them down your opponents throat.
What do you guys think?
Can Farsight join the Broadsides if he has is blob of bodyguards? Might be better to just take his large blob all with Plasma, Burst Cannons, Multitracker. Second commander with all the other upgrade like you mentioned then ally with eldar and get a Farseer. Here I am not sure if I want to risk rolling on the divination chart or just stick with the eldar powers, foreboding would be wonderful but requires a lucky'ish roll. Prescience would affect CC also.
all guestimate here, In 12 in range you would have 16 plasma shots, 24 Burst Cannon shots, with at least prescience going that’s 12 plasma hits and 18 BC hits? 8ish plasma wounds, and 12ish BC wounds, so 4ish unsaved. Around 12 MEQ kills.
Price of that unit would be crazy though, like 1k points.
a 100 firewarrior would get (in rapid fire range) 200 shots, 100 hits, prescience (they all really couldn't get it but, just for this calculation), 50 more hits, 150, then wounds, 99 wounds, 33 kills. (Without Prescience 22kills)
The fire warrior will get whittled down much faster though... I think.
Even that line is not clear. Some read it as IC and Monet without drones can take the gear not that you have to fit both requirements. Thats how I read it kind of like saying firewarriors and pathfinders can take photons you don’t have to be both a firewarriors and pathfinder. So either a IC or a Monet can take the wargear meaning an IC can take drones but the solo none IC suits cannot take drones.
.
All it does is restrict who takes it, it doesnt say anything about not conferring the rule to others. It doesnt explicitly deny that the rule doesnt move to other models in a squad, it just says that the character benefits from H&R, so it spreads as per the 6th version of H&R.
I think it's safe to have an IC, not taking drones, to take VRS - because that doesnt conflict with the rules of VRS and is legal.
It also does not say that he cannot join a squad and it isnt like ASS where it says that all models must be equipped to use it.
Conclusively just giving an IC the VRS without drones is the best thing to do as that stops confusion due to cruddy gw wording
Can Farsight join the Broadsides if he has is blob of bodyguards? Might be better to just take his large blob all with Plasma, Burst Cannons, Multitracker. Second commander with all the other upgrade like you mentioned then ally with eldar and get a Farseer. Here I am not sure if I want to risk rolling on the divination chart or just stick with the eldar powers, foreboding would be wonderful but requires a lucky'ish roll. Prescience would affect CC also.
all guestimate here, In 12 in range you would have 16 plasma shots, 24 Burst Cannon shots, with at least prescience going that’s 12 plasma hits and 18 BC hits? 8ish plasma wounds, and 12ish BC wounds, so 4ish unsaved. Around 12 MEQ kills.
Price of that unit would be crazy though, like 1k points.
a 100 firewarrior would get (in rapid fire range) 200 shots, 100 hits, prescience (they all really couldn't get it but, just for this calculation), 50 more hits, 150, then wounds, 99 wounds, 33 kills. (Without Prescience 22kills)
The fire warrior will get whittled down much faster though... I think.
keep in mind if you roll on the divination tree you can replace the spell you get with the primaris power. Effectively a free guide from the best psycher in the game. and a lot of psychic defense.
OK, So I noticed acouple of things upon a more thourough re-read of some os the units.
First, Jet-Packs have a potential rules debate in the wording of the rules. Seems that the 2d6 assault move is optional and that the controlling player can instead-to paraphrase-"Move them the same as in the movement phase."
Next, Jump-Infantry is not quite as nasty as most think. These units can only use their Jump Packs once a player turn. They can be used in the movement phase to move 12" and then assault 2d6 of foot but if they do this they do not get to benefit from the Hammer of Wrath Special rule. They also can not re-roll their Assault move Dice.
Now if they move 6" in the movement phase they can use their Jump Packs in the movement phase. It is at this time that they get the HoW and the re-roll of the 2d6 charge dice.
Finally, Eldar Jetbikes can move up to 48" in a single turn if they Turbo-boost. WOW! They can move in this edition.
You guys let me know if you think my interpretation of these rules is accurate or not.
I will post more later, will begin to throw out some possible lists and the tactics that would go with them.
Dont forget with new terrain density etc, a board with lots and lots of Difficult Terrain screws jump infantry, because ending their move in DT is a Dangerous Test, then when they want to move out its a Dangerous Test, and if you can force them to go into another difficult (tremorstave is god here), they basically kill themselves This applies to OUR jet packs however, so we must be cunning!
focusedfire wrote:First, Jet-Packs have a potential rules debate in the wording of the rules. Seems that the 2d6 assault move is optional and that the controlling player can instead-to paraphrase-"Move them the same as in the movement phase."
While it does say that, I beleive it says that in context of moving them as if they are jumping or staying on the ground. You still have to roll the 2D6 to see how far you move.
Some of the biggest things I've learned so far from actual games:
-AEGIS lines are awesome for survivability, basically giving your firewarriors a 4+ cover and your steath suits 2+ (until they drop barrage weapons on you) as well as protecting you from assaults by non-jump infantry. Assaulting over difficult terrain makes them fight at initative 1, it MAY prove to be a slight help but then again, we're talking about Tau melee
-Zero reasons to not opt for a overwatch, I've stopped assaults from damaged units a few times now, twice finishing the unit off! Just remember, a unit can only overwatch once per turn.
-My stealth suits have been champs, and not yet because of their shroud/stealth. The burst cannons are amazing for just putting down awesome fire and if they try to charge you they have to make it through an onslaught of S5AP5 shots.
I suppose if you think about it, 6 stealth suits is 18 fire warriors worth of S5 AP5 single fire, or 9 Fire Warriors Rapid Fire
So basically by paying slightly more, you forfeit model count, (some shots), and gain massive survivability and manoeuvrability as well as a cheap ML, i think they seem much better than made out when looked at this way. They are basically 18 fire warriors jumping around
That's exactly what I was thinking. I'm rather new to the game as a whole and I was trying to figure out alternative ways to get "reliable" firepower without having to rely too much on markerlights (even as awesomely helpful as they are).
I was trying hard to justify crisis suits with them (so I could know what I'm running my next crisis team I build as) but when stealth suits provide double the shots as well as a built in cover save it starts to get stupid.
I've been playing against MEQ armies mostly and I find the inital burst from the stealth suits helps chew up a MEQ squad enough for a fireknife team to come by and put them out of their misery.
I love Stealth Suits ( I've dubbed mine Silverfish, painted as close to chrome as I can get and I'm waiting for some water effect to arrive in the post for me to dip them in. )
My problem is this:
By the numbers, a squad of 6 Stealth Suits with a markerlight and team leader is 200pts, with 18 pulse shots and an effective threat range of 24", or 15 shots at 24" +1 Markerlight.
The other thing is, while it's a bit more durable, you also lose 3 shots for every wound taken.
The 200pts of Fire Warriors is 20 pulse shots at 36" or 40 at 21", and you only lose 1-2 shots per wound.
Unless the Stealth Suits are now worth their 30pts each and really ARE that survivable now
Shove your commander in there with some shield drones - Basically they are immortal bubblewrap for your warlord so he doesnt die and give up a victory point or two, as well as being quite good in withering down squads for fireknifes as mentioned earlier. Also with closest wound allocation, if you happen to the MEQ Sergeant takign wounds, you could have a fleeing marine unit (take them down a level with LD with the marker), as they will be LD7 without their leader This can make valuable space between them, and you, particularly good against death company, but not guaranteed, guaranteed however if you're running like 5 ML shots on them tho ;p
Orkaswampa wrote:Shove your commander in there with some shield drones - Basically they are immortal bubblewrap for your warlord so he doesnt die and give up a victory point or two, as well as being quite good in withering down squads for fireknifes as mentioned earlier. Also with closest wound allocation, if you happen to the MEQ Sergeant takign wounds, you could have a fleeing marine unit (take them down a level with LD with the marker), as they will be LD7 without their leader This can make valuable space between them, and you, particularly good against death company, but not guaranteed, guaranteed however if you're running like 5 ML shots on them tho ;p
What about running a small unit of Gun Drones, Kroot or Firewarriors. Give the Suites mobile cover save for a round, not sure if it would be worth the cost. 12 Kroot would be almost the cost of another 3 stealth suits, or 9 firewarriors, or 7 Gun Drones. I would also give the suites some Gun Drones for spare wounds. I think it would work well, drop a stealth team in with a seperate squad of Gundrones behind enemy lines, if they are keeping their "valuable" troops in the rear you can suprise them, leave the drones as a speed bump and hop away to harass some more.
Best way to spend 200pts on Stealthsuits would be 4 with DC and 8 Gun Drones. Would Increase the total number of wounds in the squad to 12(vs. 6) and the total # of shots to 20(vs 18) with 8 of them twin-linked for overwatch and add pinning.
You burst cannon and pulse carbine the squad to death, then when the special hidden at the back is there, you plasma his face. The shas'el is giving the squad H&R (currently unsure if this works or not with VRS), and gives the squad nightfighting. Don't forget the squads markerlight, matherhammed this kills like 7.5 marines a turn or something.
Taking the drones is better than taking a drone squad, as a drone squad is another victory point if they are tarpitting whereas these arent
Don't bother bubble wrapping with fire warriors, thats just making your suits a much nicer target for a template / ghazghkull in a trukk Position firewarriors away from the suits in a position that they can flank enemy units going to the suits. Make a trap. Anticipate their target, feed it to them, then put them down with your warriors, the burst cannon buffet, and a fireknife team Run away like a kitten in following assault phase, like a true tau.
Yes its interesting with the new increased movement across the board I think many old-school gunlines might not be viable. Mobility seems to be at the heart of 6th which is why our 2d6 jetpack move could be so useful, and stealthsuits could finally be a viable choice.
Having looked at the rules a bit more, I really do think Tau have some good tools to deal with hordes now. The AFP is seriously buffed by the wound allocation rules for ordinance. Our move and fire with fire warriors just gave us capability to start hitting at 36in effective range. Most importantly multi assaults, that bane of all Tau, will happen less often because of the disorganised assault rules plus overwatch. And of course we still have the best anti-tank gun in the game in the form of the railgun.
I do have a slight worry regarding psychic powers. Some of them look really good, and we have no access below 2k (a pv I rarely play at or above). Might this be the biggest 6th ed handicap for Tau?
If a librarian is the biggest enemy threat, it will be the first model to die, thats how tau works, eliminate the biggest threats to your army in priority order, so turn 1 that libby is getting crisis'd in the face. Wouldnt it be cool if AFP caused fateweaver to flee off board?
@ ovion the big thing with steath suits was the stealth field gen rules change. A 2+ cover save for the unit is pure gold-dust. Stealth suits problems were always about survivability. The new rules essentially put them near the top tier of units in the codex (not withstanding a direct hit from a battlecannon - but then a battlecannon IDs crisis suits anyway).
One thing that hasn't changed this edition is that crisis suits get annihilated by ML spam. I have a regular SM opponent who always takes 7-10MLs and in 5th ed. my suits were always dead by T3. This has not changed, in fact cover going to 5+ makes it more likely in 6th.
My friend who plays tau came up with this interesting combo. Take Imhotek plus a squad of immortals for your allies. Then you have black sun filters which ignore the effects of night fighting and you only have to give one to one member of the squad to benefit from the USR. Let me tell you not being able to shoot back and getting shot up is not a fun experience.
tedbpb wrote:My friend who plays tau came up with this interesting combo. Take Imhotek plus a squad of immortals for your allies. Then you have black sun filters which ignore the effects of night fighting and you only have to give one to one member of the squad to benefit from the USR. Let me tell you not being able to shoot back and getting shot up is not a fun experience.
It's been considered by multiple people and we actually have a discussion about that in this thread:
Yeah, turn one you roll for units and about 1/3 of your suits die :(
He costs too much also. Better have ghazghkull for that price, at least he can solo most of your army (2++ turns 2/3)
I think the stealth suit issue isn't survivability, it's about power/cost ratio. And now that Firewarriors can move and shoot, you have a much more affordable means of providing S5 weaponry. Stealth suits offer nothing that the rest of the army can't provide cheaper.
Oh! Sweet! My stealth suits have a 2+ cover in terrain. I'll just keep them here and DO NOTHING.
@savage How about infiltrating them 18 away, then blasting away 30 S5 shots from turn 1, protected by a 2+ cover save, with the ability to scoot 2d6 away when things get hot? Then when you attempt tp charge them you get hit with 30 shots, 12 of which are TL. They are also now far more likely to escape from a close combat as they escape at drone I4.
The steath fluff has always been about harassing and distracting the enemy, and the new rules mean they can finally be used like this in the game.
Shas’el /w Plasma Rifle + Burst Cannon + HWMT + HWBSF + VRS – 96 6x Stealth Suits /w Team Leader + ML + 12x Gun Drones – 315 Stealth Suit Shas’el Mandem = Average 7.5 Dead Marines
Actually, they'll sit in their 2+ Cover, killing alot of marines
Overwatch with squad = Average 1.6 Dead
So that's your average assault squad, with 1 Marine to take you on in close combat.
Math cannot lie! Most of the time! Stealth Suits gooood. At 1750+ it is recommended to stick another shas'el in there, with shield drones iridium armour etc etc etc, give them something uber tough as well as ramp it up to 10 dead marines on average
As to the Jet Pack movement, GW has suprised me with putting something in the BRB that I have asked for.
On pages 425 & 426, In the summary section, GW has included unit movement charts. They are not the ones of old but they are there.
Now these charts may have some conflicts but right now, I can't see any with the Jet Packs.
By the charts, Jet Pack Infantry move 0-6", can run or shoot and then may still assault 2d6 whether on foot or using their Jet Packs
Now the down side of the stealth suits.
They are T3 and will be in the majority.(Maybe 3 Stealth suits with Team lead having a drone, then joined to Termi-suit commander[2+save} w/ 2 sheild drones and a H&R Commander. Not as much fire power but more cost effective and an average Toughness of 4)
We do not yet know if the 6th ed restructuring will drastically reduce the number of vehicles.
The Commander/Stealth suit set-up while good at killing av 10, is not very effective at killing AV 11+. You are still sacrificing an elite slot.
Alternatively, you can combine a H&R Commander with a Tank Commander w/Shield drones and join them to 4 Gundrones for a much smaller points investment.
This leaves the unit at T4 and leaves the player free to kit their commanders with different weapons rather than trying to make them match the Stealth teams.
Down side of teaming with the gundrones.
You don't get the cover save you would with the stealth suits and you sacrifice a FA slot.
*Idea* When Taking Piranha, disembark the drones first turn and join the commanders to them?
Might be worth looking into.
Or you could get crisis suits with better equipment, slap a bunch of gun drones on them, and kill more marines for cheaper. I just don't see them as anything devastating. And if they really want to be a harassing unit, they need a weapon that can't be ignored and S5 AP5 doesn't cut it.
I guess I'm just being negative, stealth suits can do some good and I know a lot want to use them. Now that they are a survivable S5 shooter, I guess they could be a good harassment unit.
Iridium armor might be a pretty good stopgap against battlecannons. They don't get the barrage hit allocation rule, so a 2+ save Commander can tank a blast by joining a unit of Crisis Suits. Not advisable to run out in the open against Leman Russes of course, but sometimes you have no choice.
Double ninja'd (sorta)
@ Savage: How so? S5 AP5 is enough to cut down light infantry (and with markerlights this includes squads in cover), you can put out enough volume of shots from a small model count, light vehicles can be glanced to death, the cover save makes them even harder to kill, and their mobility means you are more likely to be out of the way of the main push towards your lines, and means your opponents have to worry about rear armor shots a lot more.
Don't forget the fusion blaster is also only 2pts, and you don't ignore one of those.
Savageconvoy wrote:Or you could get crisis suits with better equipment, slap a bunch of gun drones on them, and kill more marines for cheaper. I just don't see them as anything devastating. And if they really want to be a harassing unit, they need a weapon that can't be ignored and S5 AP5 doesn't cut it.
I guess I'm just being negative, stealth suits can do some good and I know a lot want to use them. Now that they are a survivable S5 shooter, I guess they could be a good harassment unit.
The drones idea is more to add tacticle flexibility.
Instead of trying to turn one of your crisis teams into a bodyguard that has a tendency to hang back and protect the commander,
or has to be geared to where the team matches/compliments the commanders equipment,
you design your crisis teams to perform their jobs in a cost effective manner.
Then design your commanders to fit several different teams and join them to the units that best fit the opponents that you are facing.
Ok, I'm wondering why some people are putting a marker light on the stealth team leader. AFAIK it's not networked, so the squad can't use it and if you're using them as an up front unit like this I would have thought you'd want to be using his normal weapons to boost the firepower of the unit?
Thrawn2600 wrote:Just saying, drones got way better overall.
With closest to furthest shooting, drone controllers are awesome!
Drone up your steal suits, they become 50 points each, but are basically 3 wounds eternal warriors. (just keep the drones in the front and boom good luck shooting at the actual stealsuits and the carry around 4+ cover!!!)
+3 cover save actually, +2 from shrouded and +1 from stealth field. In the Tau FAQ it says that stealth suits benefit both shrouded and stealth rules and the BRB says that both rules are cumulative, going up to +2 for cover save!
Thrawn2600 wrote:Just saying, drones got way better overall.
With closest to furthest shooting, drone controllers are awesome!
Drone up your steal suits, they become 50 points each, but are basically 3 wounds eternal warriors. (just keep the drones in the front and boom good luck shooting at the actual stealsuits and the carry around 4+ cover!!!)
+3 cover save actually, +2 from shrouded and +1 from stealth field. In the Tau FAQ it says that stealth suits benefit both shrouded and stealth rules and the BRB says that both rules are cumulative, going up to +2 for cover save!
And if they are in the open they have a 4+ cover minimum all the time, which is what he was saying. I quite enjoy this as its like getting the shield generator for free against most non melee attacks. I think there may still be some use still in the fusion blaster on stealth suits, instead of just hammering light infantry and harassing light vehicles, they can be a real threat to any vehicle. If you go the gun drone route the fusion guy is still putting out 2 S5 shots a turn. This might also be worth out flanking them, to have the "look a distraction" effect pop of mid game that they haven't seen and been running around since turn 1. Also if I read this right you can take an IC with the squad while out flanking, just not infiltrating.
Didn't Thrawn800 say he placed stealth suits behind drones to grant him the automatic and natural +5 cover save from oncoming ranged attacks? Or did I miss read that?....
I don't think target lock is gone for vehicles. Wording in the tau faq says "This piece of wargear no longer has any effect."
Target lock for vehicles is an upgrade, not a wargear (page 30 in codex).
Jadenim wrote:Ok, I'm wondering why some people are putting a marker light on the stealth team leader. AFAIK it's not networked, so the squad can't use it and if you're using them as an up front unit like this I would have thought you'd want to be using his normal weapons to boost the firepower of the unit?
Marker Drones "are" Networked. Though they really do nothing in Snap shot or overwatch.
Imo, Marker drones are still overcosted and not for semi-comp to competitive play.
Wondering, with the cover save reduction on most things, if the old zero markerlights lists will work? Spend those points that went to pathfinders on piranhas or something else.
Unlikely Captain, fire warriors can now bring down some hurt, and those broadsides and crisis suits will still want the +1 BS bonuses. Vehicles still get their target lock As the rules favour a footsloggers list, markerlights will be as important as before. A unit of 6 pathfinders w/ devilfish and upgrades only costs ~160pts, less than a fully kittted out hammerhead or a 3 man of crisis or broadsides. The other fast slots cant really compete with the buffs from the markerlights
Markerlights just don't cut it. Pathfinders die far too easily and drone markerlights cost far too much.
Instead of buying markerlights, get Eldrad with the divination abilites and a guardian jetbike squad for last turn objective denial, all for 300 points.
Then watch Eldrad "guide"* 2 units per turn and if you fortunate enough to get either remove enemy cover saves power or force then to re-roll their saving throws power, your in business. The best part is that because of the duration on those abilities, they are still active on your opponents turn and can be used for overwatch..
Lets not forget that Farseers are the best psychic denial in the game. For small games >1500, you can replace Eldrad with a cheap Farseer .
* note that I am referring to the divination re-roll to hit power and not the guide ability from the eldar codex, I just call it guide for simplicity
FacelessMage wrote:Has anyone tried Deep Striking the crisis suits in yet? Do they get cut down worse than before?
From my experience so far, they're still best deployed at the begining behind cover. Then they can dish out firepower from the first turn. Now steath suits on the other hand, they could go well with a deep strike. However, I find they're best with an outflank or infiltrate. That way they can get deep without the potential for mishap.
Deep Striking crisis suits is now pretty much like moving straight at a mob of orks. Weapons can do damage from turn one as Yotsuba said and this way you can counteract their movements, rather than being stuck in their face!
Eldrad (beast of an ally for tau) can also redeploy D3+1 units at start so that makes it even better to start in cover.
Deep striking also makes you battle cannonable as you wont have cover Need to give your broadsides a turn to kill them before you complain that they have the easy job!
Hey guys I love the tau but havent played them basically ever because I got tired of losing to my cousin. Any one have any tips on beating necrons that are basically tailored to your list no matter what you play as? Also he loves the doom scythes....
I'm a smattering of games into them now and I can give what advice I've been seeing.
So far we have done 1500 point games to get the rules ironed out well. My army has been some variation of:
3x suits all with Mpods and flamers + 2 total gun drones/blacksun. Some weapon differences but I love this loadout in the new game. The offhand flamers have been an incredible deterent towards MSU chargers like trukk boys and even whittled down marine squads. Overwatch fire from flamers even nicked the last wound on a daemon prince bearing down on me, good times all. I havent had the points to bump everything up to shield drones though spare points usually see my comander get a pair, though I hate spending points on any one option so he rarely gets over 100 points.
1 baby suit commander with Mpod, flamer 1 or 2 gun/shield drone. Again single Mpod plus flamer is a ton of utility in the new game, I have seen tons of foot slogers. The meta is xenos heavy so the flamers have cut down tons on overwatch and just general
4-6 units of 6 FW no transports
2x2 units of tetras
Heavy support has been rotation of all the options though im very happy with 1 unit of 2 broadside + 2x hammerheads
So far 6th feels like a new book for tau. The mobility is staggering. The whole army has wheels and can get to where it needs to go. If something threatens it gets lead by the nose via movement. Running + assault moves can have your enemy chase after ghosts. Plus the new vehicle rules have seen metal boxes dry up so the 2-4 railguns I have plus missile spam have usually been way past sufficient for armor duty.
I have also deep struck one unit of warriors each game and its done as expected, usually wrecking stragglers in the rear or messing up small units. I misshaped one game but I had the game in had already on turn two and was trying to be aggressive with a corner drop which i flubbed even with the tetra reroll.
In 6th I dont know how I am going to find room for kroot. Every army has better melee and I'd rather have a s5 shooting platform which can scoot away from threats.
Orkaswampa wrote:Deep Striking crisis suits is now pretty much like moving straight at a mob of orks. Weapons can do damage from turn one as Yotsuba said and this way you can counteract their movements, rather than being stuck in their face!
Eldrad (beast of an ally for tau) can also redeploy D3+1 units at start so that makes it even better to start in cover.
Deep striking also makes you battle cannonable as you wont have cover Need to give your broadsides a turn to kill them before you complain that they have the easy job!
Maybe you should deep strike "behind" the enemy and then thrust move 2d6 away after shooting.
If you can get the enemy to back up to chase a cheap unit, then that unit has done something whether it destroys a target or not..
I have seen one of the posters here, deep strike aggressively against the IG in order to nullify their battle cannons/big guns. The suits were too close to their Russes for Large Blast ordinance and the melta-vets were to far away. If you can get your suits right next to a Leman Russ, they have a hard time clearing out enought to allow for safe use of Ordinance.
This might be different now in 6th but I think it worth remembering.
Against guard yes, but something like orks will catch you and kill you fast if you're in their territory Deep striking does screw Long range lists but the majority of cc wil lbe a huge problem
I'd rather have a horde of boys after my tl flamersuits who are conveniently on overwatch than after an objective or my fire warriors.
Think last turn target denial, no ork player can turn down the chance to kill things! even if it means losing that objective.
The objective is either contested by the suits or is abandoned by the orks.
Crisis suits will *probably* survive a round of combat with a depleted mob.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and eldrad with a blob of rangers or gardener jetbikes is full of win
Everything aggressive you do should happen starting turn 4-5. Basically, I've put myself in a position to win or tie every game I've played lately by kiting my enemy, allowing him to push while witiling him down then suddenly and quickly striking back with the killing blow, either taking or contesting objectives and making it difficult for them to retaliate because there may or may not be a next turn.
This is what my kroot seem to be best for. They work well when it comes to last minute contests and holding empty points while my main force focuses on more important targets.
Going to ground with a guardian jetbike squad for 2+ save on turn 1 works well, as your opponent will ignore them, and then go 48 inches for objective denial later.
That sounds like a good tactic yotsuba i must try this ;P
Are tau really that bad that every other post keeps talking about eldar or necrons? =P I was considering selling my tau army for a necron army but now that necrons are "top dog" I don't want to jump on the proverbial monolith bandwagon. So I'll make my tau work (but you know we'll figure this whole 6th ed change out and then we'll get a new codex and start back at page 1)
Most psychic powers seem less than 24" range and the enemy should hopefully be dying if they are closer than 15". I don't see a use for the devilfish anymore. Can someone make a good argument for it?
Lastly some stealth suits squad with some sniper drone support seems to be a nice cover hugging pain throwing distraction unit.
Gatekeeper wrote:Are tau really that bad that every other post keeps talking about eldar or necrons? =P I was considering selling my tau army for a necron army but now that necrons are "top dog" I don't want to jump on the proverbial monolith bandwagon. So I'll make my tau work (but you know we'll figure this whole 6th ed change out and then we'll get a new codex and start back at page 1)
Most psychic powers seem less than 24" range and the enemy should hopefully be dying if they are closer than 15". I don't see a use for the devilfish anymore. Can someone make a good argument for it?
Lastly some stealth suits squad with some sniper drone support seems to be a nice cover hugging pain throwing distraction unit.
The tau dex is old and just about everything is over-costed points-wise. Some aspects of the faction can be effective, but they're really due for an across the board point decrease the same way Guard got one last edition.
Since the Sniper Drone Teams don't have target lock anymore do both teams then have to fire at the same unit? Which means that hammerheads and broadsides are still better right?
Since the Sniper Drone Teams don't have target lock anymore do both teams then have to fire at the same unit?
...yes, just like everything else without target lock.
Gatekeeper wrote:
Which means that hammerheads and broadsides are still better right?
I'm assuming that you're saying that "because sniper teams don't get target lock, is it an investment to get hamerheads and broadsides?". Yes. Hammerhead and broadsides all the way. ALSO, target lock is gone from the wargear list, but not from vehicle upgrades . So hammerheads can shoot at whatever they please.
Gatekeeper wrote:I don't see a use for the devilfish anymore. Can someone make a good argument for it?
Sure thing.
Firstly, if you're taking pathfinders it's required so you will have to have one to have all that markerlight/rail rifle goodness.
Secondly, They get a 5+ jink save (4+ flat out) so as long as you're constantly moving them they're harder to hit.
And finally, the best part IMO, they're essentially mobile cover. You place one in a choke point and hope they waste time shooting at it. As long as it doesn't explode, it sits there as a giant wall between you and your opponents.
Drones have the same type profile as the controller.
So Drones bought by characters also become characters.
Page 413 lists model types with (ch) being included.
i.e. Broadside Shas'vre Type: In(ch) or as a non-tau example Nob type: In (ch)
It would only apply for drones bought by models with (ch) in the type so a Stealth Shas'ui with DC would not confer (ch) but a stealth Shas'vre would.
You can basiclly use drones and their controller to tarpit a MC or IC for at least three rounds.
Time to start playing Frisby with IC and MC!
YotsubaSnake wrote:Everything aggressive you do should happen starting turn 4-5. Basically, I've put myself in a position to win or tie every game I've played lately by kiting my enemy, allowing him to push while witiling him down then suddenly and quickly striking back with the killing blow, either taking or contesting objectives and making it difficult for them to retaliate because there may or may not be a next turn.
This is what my kroot seem to be best for. They work well when it comes to last minute contests and holding empty points while my main force focuses on more important targets.
Waiting until turn 4-5 is a 5th ed tactic. It may still hold true in 6th or.... maybe not.
In 5th ed, I'd use my posi-relay to hold half of my troops(FW &/or Kroot) off of the board until turn 4 in most games. I would then have them walk on to contest/grab my objectives after having my suits & vehicles lead my opponent on a merry chase.
In 6th ed, it seems that having troops on the board will be more necessary in order to help provide weight of fire against your opponents infantry. This combined with the new movement/assault distances means that we will, most likely, have to provide distractions(be agressive) earlier in the game than in previous editions.
Avro wrote:Setting aside elrad and his awesomness, what do you think of equipping 6-8 fire warriors with EMP-nades? Quite a few glances on vehicles.
Even though the EMP's are over-priced, when compared to the cost of their haywire cousins, a unit or two set up like this will be pretty good. Don't know if you would want to spend the points to run all of your fw's like this, this would be a matter of personal preference.
Panzeh wrote:
Gatekeeper wrote:Are tau really that bad that every other post keeps talking about eldar or necrons? =P I was considering selling my tau army for a necron army but now that necrons are "top dog" I don't want to jump on the proverbial monolith bandwagon. So I'll make my tau work (but you know we'll figure this whole 6th ed change out and then we'll get a new codex and start back at page 1)
Most psychic powers seem less than 24" range and the enemy should hopefully be dying if they are closer than 15". I don't see a use for the devilfish anymore. Can someone make a good argument for it?
Lastly some stealth suits squad with some sniper drone support seems to be a nice cover hugging pain throwing distraction unit.
The tau dex is old and just about everything is over-costed points-wise. Some aspects of the faction can be effective, but they're really due for an across the board point decrease the same way Guard got one last edition.
Careful, Some of us are very sensitive about comparisons between the Tau and the IG. Tau have enough problems with other players (IG&SM) calling them xenos IG.
Tau are not in any way an IG type army. To put it differently:
Would you rather have a generic points drop that makes the Tau a non-fluffy higher model count army that also does not really address the core problems created by more recent codicii?
or
Would you like to see each units effectiveness increased to where they are worth their current points costs?
I prefer the latter. The Tau are a small empire that does not engage in attrition warfare. They should be lower model count builds that, if used properly, have a high kill vs loss ratio.
I hope that GW keeps them around 65-75 models in a 1850-2000 pt army. If Kroot are improved, maybe up to an 85-95 model count army.
terminalmonky wrote:Great thread. Thanks for starting.
Thanks and welcome to both the thread and to Dakka.
YotsubaSnake wrote:
Gatekeeper wrote:I don't see a use for the devilfish anymore. Can someone make a good argument for it?
Sure thing.
Firstly, if you're taking pathfinders it's required so you will have to have one to have all that markerlight/rail rifle goodness.
Secondly, They get a 5+ jink save (4+ flat out) so as long as you're constantly moving them they're harder to hit.
And finally, the best part IMO, they're essentially mobile cover. You place one in a choke point and hope they waste time shooting at it. As long as it doesn't explode, it sits there as a giant wall between you and your opponents.
^This.
Also, I mentioned that the Pathfinder devilfish might be getting kitted out differently in this edition. Look closely at running sensor spines on the D-fish. Remember, This is going to be terrain-hammer and vehicles in terrain can easily get a better save than the normal 5+ Jink.
(Tactics hint)
Captain Avatars last post brings up a valid point. Sometime, when deep striking or just in game, you will find that getting right up next to an opponents units and non-skimmer vehicle will stuff his movement. It will, also, force your opponent to decide whether to move those vehicles faster than planned or to let you get cover from the rest of his army.
Other times, getting behind their advancing lines can force them to break the wall/trap and thus leave your army with a much needed escape route.
Gatekeeper wrote:I don't see a use for the devilfish anymore. Can someone make a good argument for it?
Ok.
Make a warfish from the pathfinder fish, add SMS, TA, multi-tracker and the zip around going 12 inches or less and blast things with your always 5+ fishy. You can also load up 10 kroot for last turn objective grabbing.
^ +1 The devilfish is a big awkward lump, that if in cover, will be difficult to shift. Landing gear means you can block off lines of sight and flechettes make it awkward to assault. Even glancing it to death wont work because only and 'explodes' result removes the model from the board. The marker beacon special rule from the pathfinders 'fish will bring in your suits nice and accurately.
Anything else?
@focusedfire, making tau worth their points would be good but we go into the MEQ abilities when start trying to improve most them. I would rather get cheaper crisis suits and fire warriors. Everything counts in large amounts.
Destroyed a landraider with 8 FW with EMP-nades. Oh the glee! Then they were killed by thunder hammers :,(
Fair exchange But have heart, If Matt Ward does our next codex you'll get your revenge. I imagine our broadsides would be dual wielding thunder hammers and will attack on a I6 (and dont forget the shield drones with lighting claws!)
Destroyed a landraider with 8 FW with EMP-nades. Oh the glee! Then they were killed by thunder hammers :,(
Fair exchange But have heart, If Matt Ward does our next codex you'll get your revenge. I imagine our broadsides would be dual wielding thunder hammers and will attack on a I6 (and dont forget the shield drones with lighting claws!)
Don't even joke about that. Ward might see it and actually think we want these things.
Destroyed a landraider with 8 FW with EMP-nades. Oh the glee! Then they were killed by thunder hammers :,(
Fair exchange But have heart, If Matt Ward does our next codex you'll get your revenge. I imagine our broadsides would be dual wielding thunder hammers and will attack on a I6 (and dont forget the shield drones with lighting claws!)
Don't even joke about that. Ward might see it and actually think we want these things.
Destroyed a landraider with 8 FW with EMP-nades. Oh the glee! Then they were killed by thunder hammers :,(
Fair exchange But have heart, If Matt Ward does our next codex you'll get your revenge. I imagine our broadsides would be dual wielding thunder hammers and will attack on a I6 (and dont forget the shield drones with lighting claws!)
Don't even joke about that. Ward might see it and actually think we want these things.
We don't want those things?
SO: i was reading Forgeworld stuffs and I noticed that one of the lower cost fliers is a heavy support choice for Tau (the barracuda). I'm not sure we would enjoy having to decide between fliers and broadsides and hammerheads.
Destroyed a landraider with 8 FW with EMP-nades. Oh the glee! Then they were killed by thunder hammers :,(
Fair exchange But have heart, If Matt Ward does our next codex you'll get your revenge. I imagine our broadsides would be dual wielding thunder hammers and will attack on a I6 (and dont forget the shield drones with lighting claws!)
Don't even joke about that. Ward might see it and actually think we want these things.
YotsubaSnake wrote:Everything aggressive you do should happen starting turn 4-5. Basically, I've put myself in a position to win or tie every game I've played lately by kiting my enemy, allowing him to push while witiling him down then suddenly and quickly striking back with the killing blow, either taking or contesting objectives and making it difficult for them to retaliate because there may or may not be a next turn.
This is what my kroot seem to be best for. They work well when it comes to last minute contests and holding empty points while my main force focuses on more important targets.
Waiting until turn 4-5 is a 5th ed tactic. It may still hold true in 6th or.... maybe not.
In 5th ed, I'd use my posi-relay to hold half of my troops(FW &/or Kroot) off of the board until turn 4 in most games. I would then have them walk on to contest/grab my objectives after having my suits & vehicles lead my opponent on a merry chase.
In 6th ed, it seems that having troops on the board will be more necessary in order to help provide weight of fire against your opponents infantry. This combined with the new movement/assault distances means that we will, most likely, have to provide distractions(be agressive) earlier in the game than in previous editions.
Avro wrote:Setting aside elrad and his awesomness, what do you think of equipping 6-8 fire warriors with EMP-nades? Quite a few glances on vehicles.
Even though the EMP's are over-priced, when compared to the cost of their haywire cousins, a unit or two set up like this will be pretty good. Don't know if you would want to spend the points to run all of your fw's like this, this would be a matter of personal preference.
Panzeh wrote:
Gatekeeper wrote:Are tau really that bad that every other post keeps talking about eldar or necrons? =P I was considering selling my tau army for a necron army but now that necrons are "top dog" I don't want to jump on the proverbial monolith bandwagon. So I'll make my tau work (but you know we'll figure this whole 6th ed change out and then we'll get a new codex and start back at page 1)
Most psychic powers seem less than 24" range and the enemy should hopefully be dying if they are closer than 15". I don't see a use for the devilfish anymore. Can someone make a good argument for it?
Lastly some stealth suits squad with some sniper drone support seems to be a nice cover hugging pain throwing distraction unit.
The tau dex is old and just about everything is over-costed points-wise. Some aspects of the faction can be effective, but they're really due for an across the board point decrease the same way Guard got one last edition.
Careful, Some of us are very sensitive about comparisons between the Tau and the IG. Tau have enough problems with other players (IG&SM) calling them xenos IG.
Tau are not in any way an IG type army. To put it differently:
Would you rather have a generic points drop that makes the Tau a non-fluffy higher model count army that also does not really address the core problems created by more recent codicii?
or
Would you like to see each units effectiveness increased to where they are worth their current points costs?
I prefer the latter. The Tau are a small empire that does not engage in attrition warfare. They should be lower model count builds that, if used properly, have a high kill vs loss ratio.
I hope that GW keeps them around 65-75 models in a 1850-2000 pt army. If Kroot are improved, maybe up to an 85-95 model count army.
terminalmonky wrote:Great thread. Thanks for starting.
Thanks and welcome to both the thread and to Dakka.
YotsubaSnake wrote:
Gatekeeper wrote:I don't see a use for the devilfish anymore. Can someone make a good argument for it?
Sure thing.
Firstly, if you're taking pathfinders it's required so you will have to have one to have all that markerlight/rail rifle goodness.
Secondly, They get a 5+ jink save (4+ flat out) so as long as you're constantly moving them they're harder to hit.
And finally, the best part IMO, they're essentially mobile cover. You place one in a choke point and hope they waste time shooting at it. As long as it doesn't explode, it sits there as a giant wall between you and your opponents.
^This.
Also, I mentioned that the Pathfinder devilfish might be getting kitted out differently in this edition. Look closely at running sensor spines on the D-fish. Remember, This is going to be terrain-hammer and vehicles in terrain can easily get a better save than the normal 5+ Jink.
(Tactics hint)
Captain Avatars last post brings up a valid point. Sometime, when deep striking or just in game, you will find that getting right up next to an opponents units and non-skimmer vehicle will stuff his movement. It will, also, force your opponent to decide whether to move those vehicles faster than planned or to let you get cover from the rest of his army.
Other times, getting behind their advancing lines can force them to break the wall/trap and thus leave your army with a much needed escape route.
So im on my phone and cut it the way I want but I 100% on the side making our troops worth their points. Maybe slightly cheaper wargear but we aren't sm so we've got better weaponry and the squad itself should number a few more if course but in no way shape or form just we become a high tech ig army with crisis suits instead of armor. It doesn't fit the fluff at all. Sure we would win every game if we could go pt for pt with ig but it just goes against everything that is Tau already! So im all for improvement over pt reductions.
Destroyed a landraider with 8 FW with EMP-nades. Oh the glee! Then they were killed by thunder hammers :,(
Fair exchange But have heart, If Matt Ward does our next codex you'll get your revenge. I imagine our broadsides would be dual wielding thunder hammers and will attack on a I6 (and dont forget the shield drones with lighting claws!)
Well it's Tau, soooooooooooo, railguns that shoot thunderhammers! It was a fluky game anyway. He ignored my EMP-nade FWs that ran upfield, thinking they would just sit put and try to snipe some marines; instead he moved through with his landraider up front, GIVING ME THE PERFECT OPPORTUNITY!
True story
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry about the large pic, just edited my post.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Orkaswampa wrote:Just thought i'd put this about the stealth teams mentioned previously -
This set up works as a "kan wall" as well as killing on average 7.6 Marines a turn, which is quite good. Plenty of cannon fodder (drones) in the front, and keeps your HQ safe from "Slay the Warlord!" hate Now that Hit and Run gives it to the unit, and Night Vision is given to the unit, the BSF and Vectored Retro Thrusters should (hope) give the whole squad H&R as well as Night Vision, seeing as night fighting is back, and hopefully in most games
Also if you get flanked you have 14 Gun drones worth of Look out sir
Thoughts?
Well there's no point in the Target Lock as it doesn't do anything any more.
Weeeell.
Ya see, target lock is gone from wargear (infantry and battlesuit), but only the hard-wired target lock is removed because it is listed as wargear. The standard target lock is a support system. So no free third slot to shove an extra gun on your Shas'vre.
On that note, remember dear old Target Priority Test? Gone! First page of the Tau 6th edition update under "various-target priority" it says "ignore all references to target priority and target priority test"; suits and vehicles fire automatically at their desired target(s) if they have target lock equipped.
Ya see, target lock is gone from wargear (infantry and battlesuit), but only the hard-wired target lock is removed because it is listed as wargear. The standard target lock is a support system. So no free third slot to shove an extra gun on your Shas'vre.
On that note, remember dear old Target Priority Test? Gone! First page of the Tau 6th edition update under "various-target priority" it says "ignore all references to target priority and target priority test"; suits and vehicles fire automatically at their desired target(s) if they have target lock equipped.
Unless it is referring to the Target lock description entry above the Infantry War gear box as most people seem to read it. In which case both suits and infantry lose it. Is see a FAQ on the FAQ for this one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What about Sheild generators now? I thing they look like better buys for units that plan to get in among enemy units do the new wound allocation rules. Even with look out sir, I think they are going to much more cost effective.
Ya see, target lock is gone from wargear (infantry and battlesuit), but only the hard-wired target lock is removed because it is listed as wargear. The standard target lock is a support system. So no free third slot to shove an extra gun on your Shas'vre.
On that note, remember dear old Target Priority Test? Gone! First page of the Tau 6th edition update under "various-target priority" it says "ignore all references to target priority and target priority test"; suits and vehicles fire automatically at their desired target(s) if they have target lock equipped.
Unless it is referring to the Target lock description entry above the Infantry War gear box as most people seem to read it. In which case both suits and infantry lose it. Is see a FAQ on the FAQ for this one.
The FAQ says "Armoury, Target Lock. This piece of wargear no longer has any effect." This replaces the Target Lock entry in the Armoury section of the Tau codex. So you can take a Target Lock on your suit but it doesn't do anything. It's very clear.
The FAQ also calls the Command and Control Node "wargear", despite it only being able to be taken as a Support System.
They are using the term wargear as a catch-all for any upgrade or weapon in the armoury.
Stop trying to find a loophole to exploit, there isn't one.
It says target lock does nothing, like A Town Called Malus says don't bother trying to exploit it. RAI in the faq, if you suck and can't win a game without cheesing every word and making the game a boring and sucking for everyone. Accept it is a new rulebook, stuff has changed, you must get on with those changes and except them - just think how eldar feel! #
Sorry for the rant, but it's annoying about how many people try to bend the rules because they can't cope with change, does nothing = it does nothing, END.
Thank you for your time More relevant stuff on this brilliant thread please not faqing faq's that have been faqed by other faqs
Orkaswampa wrote:It says target lock does nothing, like A Town Called Malus says don't bother trying to exploit it. RAI in the faq, if you suck and can't win a game without cheesing every word and making the game a boring and sucking for everyone. Accept it is a new rulebook, stuff has changed, you must get on with those changes and except them - just think how eldar feel!
I bet they feel pretty good right now, since Every Tau and Dark Eldar Player are taking them as allies.
Yeah, believe me, if there were any way of getting Target Locks to work on suits I'd have jumped on it. Playing a Farsight army and so only having one unit of XV88s and one Hammerhead really made me pretty dependent on Target Locks. Now I'll end up relying on the Dawn Blade, Fusion Guns, Missile Pods and Plasma a bit more (Bring on that second FOC at 2000 points and up), with more manoeuvrability to get round behind vehicles.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iur_tae_mont wrote:
Orkaswampa wrote:It says target lock does nothing, like A Town Called Malus says don't bother trying to exploit it. RAI in the faq, if you suck and can't win a game without cheesing every word and making the game a boring and sucking for everyone. Accept it is a new rulebook, stuff has changed, you must get on with those changes and except them - just think how eldar feel!
I bet they feel pretty good right now, since Every Tau and Dark Eldar Player are taking them as allies.
And every Eldar player is taking Tau and Dark Eldar as allies to get some decent Night Fighting units in their army.
Played 4 games of 6th ed so far. Some general thoughts:
-stealth suits are awesome vs AV11,2 hull points vehicles
-also awesome against SM combat squads and bikes
-It has actually become harder to kill a vehicle with a single railgun shot because of vehicle cover/jink saves
-glancing to death seems like the best option for us
-5+ cover has nerfed pathfinders, better to go for high volume of fire and TL as much as possible.
I...wasn't trying to exploit the target lock I thought that equipment listed under a "wargear" heading in each main sections (battlesuits, foot soldiers, vehicles) were as wargear items.
A Town Called Malus wrote:
The FAQ also calls the Command and Control Node "wargear", despite it only being able to be taken as a Support System.
^-- I going to have to re-read the FAQ again. Thanks for clearing things up!
Orkaswampa wrote:
It says target lock does nothing, like A Town Called Malus says don't bother trying to exploit it. RAI in the faq, if you suck and can't win a game without cheesing every word and making the game a boring and sucking for everyone. Accept it is a new rulebook, stuff has changed, you must get on with those changes and except them - just think how eldar feel! #
Sorry for the rant, but it's annoying about how many people try to bend the rules because they can't cope with change, does nothing = it does nothing, END.
Thank you for your time More relevant stuff on this brilliant thread please not faqing faq's that have been faqed by other faqs
Sorry if my posts about the target lock rule was getting on you nerves, Orkaswampa.
Hey fellas; new Tau player here. I have a few questions for you guys about 6th edition.
Why does nobody seem to take the Shas'o over the other crisis Commander? I would think the extra BS and wound would be worth 20ish points, but I have yet to see a list with one in it.
Also, I see some people suggesting putting their Crisis HQ in with some suits but I see others put theirs in with their broadsides. Any particular reason not to put him with your crisis suits?
What do you guys think about gun drones on crisis suits in 6th? Some people are really big on them but I'm not sure they're worth the equipment slot and 10 points. However, having that extra wound and s5 shot isn't too bad these days.
1: With T4, Sv 3+, Instant Death will kill it just the same.
2: It's an additional 25pts for +1 WS, +1 BS, +1 W, +1 A and +1 Ld, and while this is technically a good deal, you could just pay 10pts and get the +1 BS which is really what you want on your shooty commander with no CC weapons.
That extra 15pts could go towards something else in the army.
YotsubaSnake wrote:Everything aggressive you do should happen starting turn 4-5. Basically, I've put myself in a position to win or tie every game I've played lately by kiting my enemy, allowing him to push while witiling him down then suddenly and quickly striking back with the killing blow, either taking or contesting objectives and making it difficult for them to retaliate because there may or may not be a next turn.
This is what my kroot seem to be best for. They work well when it comes to last minute contests and holding empty points while my main force focuses on more important targets.
Waiting until turn 4-5 is a 5th ed tactic. It may still hold true in 6th or.... maybe not.
In 5th ed, I'd use my posi-relay to hold half of my troops(FW &/or Kroot) off of the board until turn 4 in most games. I would then have them walk on to contest/grab my objectives after having my suits & vehicles lead my opponent on a merry chase.
In 6th ed, it seems that having troops on the board will be more necessary in order to help provide weight of fire against your opponents infantry. This combined with the new movement/assault distances means that we will, most likely, have to provide distractions(be agressive) earlier in the game than in previous editions.
I'm actually taking a different approach than keeping most of my stuff in reserve (like in 5th). I keep one or two key units that can get into the fight in reserve (steath suits outflank or a skimmer I can't effectively put into cover) while most of my foot troops (crisis, broadsides, firewarriors) hoof it (...pun not intended). When reserves come in, I use them to apply pressure to the most critical areas like supporting weak line or supplmenting an area with developing momentum
Just had my first 6E game with Farsight (against Orks, fittingly enough).
Army wide preferred enemy is pretty sweet. Re-rolling those ones can really help in making those shots count, considering that weapons like Missile Pods, Plasma Rifles and Railguns will be wounding on 2+ anyway. Can see an Ethereal being an ok investment for sacrificial purposes in normal Tau armies.
Downside is Farsight isn't as good at CC as he was now that it's only ones he can re-roll. He still managed to take down the enemy Warboss in a challenge though (thanks to some lucky Invulnerable save rolls on my part).
I got the re-roll reserves Warlord ability, which made sure my second commander and his retinue packing Fusion blasters arrived when I needed them.
Broadsides, broadsides broadsides lol I 2(3each) squads with sms and a multitracker with a hardwired dc with two shield drones. They were champs. One squad got assaulted first turn by some scarabs only to take one out with a railgun with overwatch and then they killed the other 2 scarabs in cc by end of my first turn. On my second turn they were free to take out one of his transport thingies that brings them back to live as well as a few troops. They died in turn three because some death marks that marked em showed up and I rolled poorly. Lol my other squad managed to kill a monolith when it showed up scoring 3 explosion results! As well as like some warriors, and lich guard before they ran off the board because I rolled a 10 for morale.
I don't like vehicles so I will take 2 squads every time. And if I have the points ill take three
What do you guys think about Fragmentation launchers now?
I am thinking that there may be some merit to them now. Due to the barrage rules and no cover save, you can pick out models and can really put some wounds on the inexorable horde armies you see. Especially IG.
Added a couple more suggested ally combinations to use in the Aegis defense line.
Also, sorry it has taken me a bit to get back to the thread but I want to join in on the fun, so pls forgive the small wall of text that follows.
DaemonJellybaby wrote:^ +1
The devilfish is a big awkward lump, that if in cover, will be difficult to shift. Landing gear means you can block off lines of sight and flechettes make it awkward to assault.
Even glancing it to death wont work because only and 'explodes' result removes the model from the board.
The marker beacon special rule from the pathfinders 'fish will bring in your suits nice and accurately.
Anything else?
@focusedfire, making tau worth their points would be good but we go into the MEQ abilities when start trying to improve most them. I would rather get cheaper crisis suits and fire warriors.
Everything counts in large amounts.
About Devilfish-After playing a couple of games, I can safely say that the Sensor Spine vehicle upgrade will be a must take if you play in an enviroment or tournament that uses the new random terrain generation rules.
About the Tau,
First, Our suits are already better than MEQ in Strength, Wounds and # of ranged weapons.
Second, They are less than MEQ in BS, WS, Initiative, Leadership and cc otions.
Third, there should not be a problem with Tau elites having a base BS stat exceeding SM elites.
Lastly, Made worth their points could mean going the better natural abilities(ala Eldar) route or the Tech improvemenys on their weapons/wargear.
examples*
-Fire Warriors could easily stay the same price if it included both of the grenade options.
-Battlesuits gain a base BS4
-Make Shield generators 3++ (or have a 4+ re-rollable save)so that they are worth their points
-Make Marker lights Rapid-fire
-Improve some weapon profiles(Fusion Blasters go to 18" range or Burst Cannons gain an extra shot and go to 24" range.
The Tau, when first conceived, were designed to fit in the triangulated middle of the Sm-IG-Eldar.
*The elites were designed to resilient/tough like marines but without any real assault ability.
*The troops were supposed to be a rough equivalent of Veteran Guard but without the special weapon options
*The transports and battlesuits were designed to be like the Eldar but the mobility was to be from agility not speed.
Since the Tau Empire Codex, GW has increased stats and survivabilty across all of the 5th ed codices and has given what were Tau specific traits to other armies.
When I say make them worth their points, I mean give them the ability to be "the" precision shooting(non-ordinance) army whose toughness off sets their low model count. They should be able to pump out more high strength low ap shots over the course of 5-6 turns than any other army.
The tau should be designed to win, if you:
use mobility
proper unit synergy
and correct tactics that fit the Tau playstyle.
Tun_Tau wrote:
Avro wrote:Game update:
Destroyed a landraider with 8 FW with EMP-nades. Oh the glee! Then they were killed by thunder hammers :,(
Fair exchange But have heart, If Matt Ward does our next codex you'll get your revenge. I imagine our broadsides would be dual wielding thunder hammers and will attack on a I6 (and dont forget the shield drones with lighting claws!)
Yeah, I used to take out Monoliths with EMP's back in 4th ed.
It does suck that when a unit of Fire Warriors takes out a LR, that unit is most certainly making a sacrifice for "the greater good".
I console myself with the thought, that my 100 point unit just took out a 240-250 point vehicle.
Ovion wrote:Now I want to make a Shield Drone with twin-Lightning Claws...
You!! Don't make me turn this thread around. If you keep posting such horrible atrocities, we will not allow you to join in the after thread party that has punch and pie.
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Tun_Tau wrote:
But have heart, If Matt Ward does our next codex you'll get your revenge. I imagine our broadsides would be dual wielding thunder hammers and will attack on a I6 (and dont forget the shield drones with lighting claws!)
Don't even joke about that. Ward might see it and actually think we want these things.
@Tun_Tau- See What you've done! You've startled them, and they have evoked the name of he who destroys fluff. We will now be cursed to have a dex of cc specialists and Railgins that shoot wolf priefs using Jotww.
@A Town Called Malus-Nah, Rail guns will shoot tesseract labriynths riding tachyon arrows and we will get mindshackle drones.
Seriously, This has been fun, but I'd like to get back on topic and ask for battle reports/ whats working for other people.
Gatekeeper wrote:We don't want those things?
SO: i was reading Forgeworld stuffs and I noticed that one of the lower cost fliers is a heavy support choice for Tau (the barracuda). I'm not sure we would enjoy having to decide between fliers and broadsides and hammerheads.
First- Don't even start. No more evoking the name of the fluff killer nor asking for SM toy/goodies........While were are at it....You want MOOAARRR!!??... (Dickens reference)
Second- IMO,Most likely the Barracuda (or whatever Flyer we get) will be written as a FA choice. I could be wrong though. Just seems like it would hurt their HH /Sky Ray sales.
Ovion wrote:Now I want to make a Shield Drone with twin-Lightning Claws...
You!! Don't make me turn this thread around. If you keep posting such horrible atrocities, we will not allow you to join in the after thread party that has punch and pie.
You know, specifically saying not to, just meant I had to.
focusedfire wrote:About the Tau, First, Our suits are already better than MEQ in Strength, Wounds and # of ranged weapons. Second, They are less than MEQ in BS, WS, Initiative, Leadership and cc options. Third, there should not be a problem with Tau elites having a base BS stat exceeding SM elites. all true
Lastly, Made worth their points could mean going the better natural abilities(ala Eldar) route or the Tech improvemenys on their weapons/wargear. examples* -Fire Warriors could easily stay the same price if it included both of the grenade options. I would prefer them to be around the 8pt mark with only photon grenades as they have better armour and standard weapons than veteran guardsmen and of a similar price per unit. -Battlesuits gain a base BS4. Thats fine, but will the targetting array still be avaliable? -Make Shield generators 3++ (or have a 4+ re-rollable save)so that they are worth their points. Reduce the cost of shield generators?5-10pts? -Make Marker lights Rapid-fire. Or heavy 2? -Improve some weapon profiles(Fusion Blasters go to 18" range or Burst Cannons gain an extra shot and go to 24" range. No opinion really
Personally the Barracuda is fun, but not worth a heavy support slot. If browsing forgeworld, look at the defensive turrets that can DS and are troops.
Ovion wrote:Now I want to make a Shield Drone with twin-Lightning Claws...
You!! Don't make me turn this thread around. If you keep posting such horrible atrocities, we will not allow you to join in the after thread party that has punch and pie.
You know, specifically saying not to, just meant I had to.
What is everyone's thoughts on mass amounts of kroot in 6th? I've played just a couple games at 1999 and used 3 squads of 20 kroot. Having 60 shots a turn is nice at 30". But my concern is would having a libby w/ a couple tac squads make more sense? I have a salamander and a blood raven army I could use for allies. Pros/Cons?
I tried using my barracuda model, it arrived, I blinked, it died.
I am stunned as to why Forgeworld put only 2HP on the air superiority fighters for each race when the FAQ was released, since all the GW flyers all came with 3.
I suspect that Forgeworld puts a big point premium on the range of the ion cannon, on large boards I can see it being useful however on the small standard GW table sizes, you can't hide from quad guns and those will annihilate you.
Until Forgeworld updates the rules, just leave these guys on the shelf, they are too fragile for their point cost and using up a valuable HS slot.
Hey, so I have a question regarding suits. They are jetpack infantry. In the brb it states under movement that they can move like normal infantry or activate jetpacks. Can we activate in movement to move 12 and still make our 2d6 thrust move?
I think you are incorrect; there is a differente rule for jet pack troopers which is separate from the normal jump infantry. Ergo, they can move like a normal infantry unit (distance wise) but can usethe 2d6 to hop around in the assualt phase in addition to hopping over obstacles in both phases; correct me if I"m wrong as I'd love to find out you can move 12 and then 2d6 in the assault phase.
Also, I'll ask again: What about frag launchers now on an HQ? With the new buff to barrage and no cover (and ap5), this would be a great thing to take in a general list, I'd think, so you can snipe out certain wargear and deal with the inevetable horde armies such as orks, guard, and nids that will be more popular now. I could be wrong, so I'd love to hear from other people.
Anyways, i know you can move the 12" in movement phase using the jetpack just like "jump" infantry. It states that you have to pick movement or assault. Where do you want the bonus? However it does not make that distinction under the jetpack entry as they aren't supposed to be assaulty type troops they are mobile gun platforms.
I think we should get that move and the one in assault and the only reason we wouldnt use it, is when we are in difficult terrain.
Wolfnid420 wrote:Oops accidently reposted the same thing
Anyways, i know you can move the 12" in movement phase using the jetpack just like "jump" infantry. It states that you have to pick movement or assault. Where do you want the bonus? However it does not make that distinction under the jetpack entry as they aren't supposed to be assaulty type troops they are mobile gun platforms.
I think we should get that move and the only reason we wouldnt use it, is when we are in difficult terrain.
Any thoughts?
Jetpacks only ever move 6" in the movement phase. When it refers to moving like jump infantry it means ignoring difficult terrain which you pass over and taking dangerous terrain tests if you take off or land in difficult terrain.
You can see this in the reference section at the back where there's a table listing all the movement values of different types of units. In the row describing Jet Pack Infantry using their Jet Packs the movement phase distance is 0-6". You'll also notice that we only flee 2D6" (as opposed to 3D6" for Jump Packs) when failing a morale check, so we're a bit less likely to run off the table, which is kinda nice.
Stormcrow wrote:I think you are incorrect; there is a differente rule for jet pack troopers which is separate from the normal jump infantry. Ergo, they can move like a normal infantry unit (distance wise) but can usethe 2d6 to hop around in the assualt phase in addition to hopping over obstacles in both phases; correct me if I"m wrong as I'd love to find out you can move 12 and then 2d6 in the assault phase.
Also, I'll ask again: What about frag launchers now on an HQ? With the new buff to barrage and no cover (and ap5), this would be a great thing to take in a general list, I'd think, so you can snipe out certain wargear and deal with the inevetable horde armies such as orks, guard, and nids that will be more popular now. I could be wrong, so I'd love to hear from other people.
I am think they will be a fine fit. If you want a really good front line troop killer give him both the AFP and the Cyclonic Blaster. Toss a Sheild generator some extra gun drones and he will be hell on foot troops. That is going to be alot 18in shots. Alittle expensive but could be fun is you know your facing orks or nids.
Stormcrow wrote:Thoughts on running an etherial inside a large blob of kroot to tie down death stars with fearless, cheap models? I think this could work actually.
Kroot don't count as a "Tau" unit when it comes to the bonuses granted by Ethereals. Only the actual members of the Tau race get them, or at least that's how I've always read it since Kroot, Vespid and drones don't get the Morale check re-roll from being able to see him or suffer the Leadership test (and get Preferred Enemy) if the Ethereal dies.
6 fw with emp grenades with a warfish (flechette discharge, sensor spines, targeting array, maybe blacksun filter?) being used as a commando unit? Running around popping vehicles and nestling in dangerous terrain?
Painted! (albeit simply and only to a tabletop standard - but they're drones with lightning claws, who cares! xD)
edit - Addition of better photos:
Spoiler:
All joking aside, this threads been quite helpful, and has given me things to bear in mind when I play my first game(s) with Tau in 6th. (After I've done a few more with my DE.)
6 fw with emp grenades with a warfish (flechette discharge, sensor spines, targeting array, maybe blacksun filter?) being used as a commando unit? Running around popping vehicles and nestling in dangerous terrain?
Not sure whether BSF would be worth it on a Devilfish. Its basic guns are all short range so they'll be getting +1 to cover saves at maximum, which you won't even notice if they have an armour save of 4+ or better.
Do SMS still flat out ignore the effects of Night Fighting? It seems that the FAQ removed the sentence which said so, which is annoying as I guess that means that people will still get cover saves from Stealth granted by Night Fighting unless not requiring LOS completely negates Night Fighting bonuses automatically.
So i was able to strip 260 points of wargear off my tau list( mostly trimming the fat on transports and dropping kroot) and am looking at eldar allies.
For 260, I can get either: A Farseer with Both runes and spirit stone ans 6 pathfinders OR the same farseer, on a jetbike, with 5 jetbike guardians, one rocking a Cannon.
Stormcrow wrote:Thoughts on running an etherial inside a large blob of kroot to tie down death stars with fearless, cheap models? I think this could work actually.
Kroot don't count as a "Tau" unit when it comes to the bonuses granted by Ethereals. Only the actual members of the Tau race get them, or at least that's how I've always read it since Kroot, Vespid and drones don't get the Morale check re-roll from being able to see him or suffer the Leadership test (and get Preferred Enemy) if the Ethereal dies.
Ah; good point. I'm new to Tau and nobody plays them around here, so thanks for clearing this up!
Stormcrow wrote:Thoughts on running an etherial inside a large blob of kroot to tie down death stars with fearless, cheap models? I think this could work actually.
Kroot don't count as a "Tau" unit when it comes to the bonuses granted by Ethereals. Only the actual members of the Tau race get them, or at least that's how I've always read it since Kroot, Vespid and drones don't get the Morale check re-roll from being able to see him or suffer the Leadership test (and get Preferred Enemy) if the Ethereal dies.
Ah; good point. I'm new to Tau and nobody plays them around here, so thanks for clearing this up!
No problem. When you said it my first thought was "Hey, that sounds like a great plan." so it was worth checking out, just in case.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iur_tae_mont wrote:So i was able to strip 260 points of wargear off my tau list( mostly trimming the fat on transports and dropping kroot) and am looking at eldar allies.
For 260, I can get either: A Farseer with Both runes and spirit stone ans 6 pathfinders OR the same farseer, on a jetbike, with 5 jetbike guardians, one rocking a Cannon.
Which should I go for?
Hmmm...
The Jetbikes would be great for last ditch Objective grabbing and are tougher but the Pathfinders have those great rending rules which would be a nightmare to TEQs and that +2 to cover saves which would make them amazing if you get them in a ruin, which with Infiltrate will not be hard.
I think it would really depend entirely on what kind of force you're trying to build. A static shooting army might prefer the Pathfinders for their great saves in cover and AP1 on a 5+ whereas a more mobile force might be better off with the Jetbikes for their insane movement (12" then a 36" turbo, ouch).
What powers are you taking with the farseer and are you going to stick with them or swap them out for one of the Book lores?
Iur_tae_mont wrote: So i was able to strip 260 points of wargear off my tau list( mostly trimming the fat on transports and dropping kroot) and am looking at eldar allies.
For 260, I can get either: A Farseer with Both runes and spirit stone ans 6 pathfinders OR the same farseer, on a jetbike, with 5 jetbike guardians, one rocking a Cannon. Which should I go for?
This depends on what the rest of the army is doing. If you have lots of slow units, but can comfortably deal with TEQs, take the jetbikes for last turn objective denial. If you are fast, take the rangers for fire support.
@ stormcrow, AFP is a good choice, I run my commander with the 2+ save and drones, AFP and TL missile pod (and of course BSF). He can tarpit, horde-hunt and pop light vehicles. Pretty good!
Your idea of running lots of kroot is an interesting one.. I haven't run kroot at all in 6th ed, but I would imagine 5+ cover has hurt them a bit. My preferred use of them in 5th was as an assault unit, but that was always a dicey tactic and has been nerfed by overwatch and the limits on outflanking.
At the moment I am running lots of fire warriors (48) and no pathfinders or devilfish. IMO both aforementioned units are not at all worth the points. Cover is everywhere on vehicles now anyway and PFs are just not accurate enough to get the number of ML hits needed to justify the points (before they die to a couple of frag missiles). My one wish for the new codex is that PFs become either more survivable or much cheaper. In the meantime its best to focus on volume of fire and TL wherever possible (eg on crisis suits).
Yes indeed fire warriors are still squishy, but 48 S5 shots a turn at effective 36 inch range is not to be sniffed at, even at BS3.
@Troy
What about tetra's as a replacement for pathfinders??
As well as this if you're running a FW heavy army, and each squad has a markerlight, 2 or 3 sensor towers you're looking at alot of BS2 T/L pulse rifles (you only need 1 model in range of a tower for whole unit to get buff) Just read up on below link http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/t/Tauupdate.pdf
Ovion wrote:Painted! (albeit simply and only to a tabletop standard - but they're drones with lightning claws, who cares! xD)
All joking aside, this threads been quite helpful, and has given me things to bear in mind when I play my first game(s) with Tau in 6th. (After I've done a few more with my DE.)
@orkswampa my local meta dictates no forgeworld. The general consensus in our group is that FW stuff is over-powered. Also I do attend tourneys semi-regularly and generally tourneys dont allow forge world stuff.
Some of the stuff on that link is very cool though (drone sentry turrets!!!) I think the whole drone aspect of the Tau army is one that could be developed quite alot.
Hi, i'm new here, just coming back to the game since quitting around the time the Necrons first appeared as a single warrior in White Dwarf during 3rd edition.
The Tau look awesome (despite the problems) and I've been reading up on them and putting together lists in my head, to try to figure out what to buy.
I was looking at battlesuits, which are now Jetpack infantry as we all know. One of the cool things about Jetpack infantry is that they have the Relentless rule, allowing them to move and fire heavy weapons.
So i was like "awesome!" ...and then i saw that Crisis suits don't actually get any heavy weapon options except for the AFP which doesn't benefit because it has Barrage.
But, on the other hand, Markerlights are a heavy weapon.
So suddenly, marker drones attached to Crisis teams or Stealth suits (and thus counting as jetpacks) can now move and fire on the same turn. So that's cool. What else?
Stealth team leaders can equip markerlights too.
So what do you think about the idea of having a Stealth team out there, in cover somewhere so getting a 2+ or 3+ cover save, able to be highly mobile and dash from cover to cover and still paint targets for Seeker Missiles and whatnot, and burn down the heaviest of charging infantry or vehicles that come too close....
Add some marker drones and suddenly we're talking 3 highly mobile markerlights with some awesome cover saves and mobility.
I dunno. Seems cool, in theory? Until they give us more heavy weapons - or turn Broadsides into jetpack infantry - its just about the only use for that perk that I can find.
Hi, i'm new here, just coming back to the game since quitting around the time the Necrons first appeared as a single warrior in White Dwarf during 3rd edition.
The Tau look awesome (despite the problems) and I've been reading up on them and putting together lists in my head, to try to figure out what to buy.
I was looking at battlesuits, which are now Jetpack infantry as we all know. One of the cool things about Jetpack infantry is that they have the Relentless rule, allowing them to move and fire heavy weapons.
So i was like "awesome!" ...and then i saw that Crisis suits don't actually get any heavy weapon options except for the AFP which doesn't benefit because it has Barrage.
But, on the other hand, Markerlights are a heavy weapon.
So suddenly, marker drones attached to Crisis teams or Stealth suits (and thus counting as jetpacks) can now move and fire on the same turn. So that's cool. What else?
Stealth team leaders can equip markerlights too.
So what do you think about the idea of having a Stealth team out there, in cover somewhere so getting a 2+ or 3+ cover save, able to be highly mobile and dash from cover to cover and still paint targets for Seeker Missiles and whatnot, and burn down the heaviest of charging infantry or vehicles that come too close....
Add some marker drones and suddenly we're talking 3 highly mobile markerlights with some awesome cover saves and mobility.
I dunno. Seems cool, in theory? Until they give us more heavy weapons - or turn Broadsides into jetpack infantry - its just about the only use for that perk that I can find.
Yeah the changes to shooting Rapid Fire weapons pretty much made Relentless useless to Crisis suits except Farsight and his retinue, that is unless you actually want to assault with any other Crisis team.
I don't see Broadsides getting Jetpacks any time soon. Moving 6" ignoring terrain, then firing a S10 AP1 gun with 72" range, then jetpacking 2D6" back into cover is incredibly broken and would make even Grey Knights and Necrons do a double take.
Probably going to see Rail Rifles as a weapon option for Crisis suits or Stealth teams in the next codex along with a less strength but more shots option, like a beefed up Burst Cannon. Probably some prototype heavy plasma rifle for Commanders and Shas'vre too.
Do SMS still flat out ignore the effects of Night Fighting? It seems that the FAQ removed the sentence which said so, which is annoying as I guess that means that people will still get cover saves from Stealth granted by Night Fighting unless not requiring LOS completely negates Night Fighting bonuses automatically.
Pretty sure the FAQ means to remove SMS's ignore-night-fighting rule. Replace the explanatory text currently under SMS in the tau codex with what the FAQ says. *sigh*
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Ovion wrote:Painted! (albeit simply and only to a tabletop standard - but they're drones with lightning claws, who cares! xD)
All joking aside, this threads been quite helpful, and has given me things to bear in mind when I play my first game(s) with Tau in 6th. (After I've done a few more with my DE.)
If you can paint a flyer with a Markerlight, can you fire Seeker missiles at it?
The book kinda implies yes, and the faq doesn't deny it...
In the markerlight entry in the codex, it says:
Every markerlight counter expended grants the firing unit one of the following effects, which may be combined.
To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit. This shooting is resolved normally in all regards at a Ballistic Skill of 5
Would this make Pathfinders suddenly more useful, especially if you've got seeker missile strapped to your Hammerheads and Pirahnas, or bring a Sky Ray?
@mickey you still have to hit with your markers, at BS1.
Your stealth suit/marker drone idea is one thats been suggested, indeed I've seen people run the unit in 5th, but with marker drones being so overcosted you're looking at 180 points for 3 BS3 markerlights. And in all probability you have wasted the 9 BC shots because your trying to light up a mech target. 60 points per ML, and with accuracy just as poor as pathfinders. Its not a great deal.. but who knows maybe the 2+ save has improved survivability to make it a credible choice? Give it a try and post a batrep here!
So I tried the emp-nade fw with a devilfish and came up with this.
-6 emp-nade fw with pulse rifles (72 pts)
-devilfish with sensor spines, flechette discharge (100pts)
-total = 172 pts
A 3 man squad of battlesuits with fire knife configuration is 186 pts. Taking the three man squad was a better idea, but I was curious
Turn 1 I hopped my fws into the fish moved it flat out across the board (lovely cover saves i might add). FWs toppled out from the fish, shot some far off units, and assaulted a Leman Russ. I landed one glance and one penn with 6 grenades. Leman Russ lost its battle canon. Things didn't unfold so nicely after that; worried about his tank, my opponent shot my fws to bits and my devilfish was immobilized for that round (moved it out afterwards).
All models can assault with grenades but can only attack once. You can throw one grenade per unit per shooting phase. I'm thinking of adding one or two emp grenades in a fw squad just in case enemy vehicles get too close for assaults.
Turn 1 I hopped my fws into the fish moved it flat out across the board (lovely cover saves i might add). FWs toppled out from the fish, shot some far off units, and assaulted a Leman Russ.
Since you cannot assault out of vehicles now, how did your FW survive the turn after they deployed?
Different topic.
Does anyone know if drones assigned to characters become characters? Was curious as someone posted about XV8 Commanders with drones that gain (jet-pack, character).
Turn 1 I hopped my fws into the fish moved it flat out across the board (lovely cover saves i might add). FWs toppled out from the fish, shot some far off units, and assaulted a Leman Russ.
Since you cannot assault out of vehicles now, how did your FW survive the turn after they deployed?
I suppose the legal way would be to fly up real close and friendly like, hop out with the fish between you and the not so friendly folk, fish dies. next turn you move up and shoot, and then assault with 'nades.
Ovion wrote:Yup, I'm ready for the Wardian Tau book now, even if no one else is!
(I love converting drones, it's strangely satisfying, more pics once they're painted.)
Aaach, you keep mentioning the name of the Fluff-killer. Seriously, those drones gave me a good laugh.
You may already know this but in case you don't I figure that this will be good repayment for the laugh...............
Years ago I found that the D-fish top turret and Hammerhead/Sky Ray nose turrets are just the right size to put a drone in. Found this out when one of my top turrets went missing and later when I got gifted with a scrap hammerhead missing its nose turret.
The Top turret swap makes the vehicle look like a drone controlled transport or command vehicle. The nose turret replacement looks great when you use a drone with two long antenna. Really re-inforces the whole D-fish Stingray look.
Tauownz wrote:What is everyone's thoughts on mass amounts of kroot in 6th? I've played just a couple games at 1999 and used 3 squads of 20 kroot. Having 60 shots a turn is nice at 30". But my concern is would having a libby w/ a couple tac squads make more sense? I have a salamander and a blood raven army I could use for allies. Pros/Cons?
Kroot are up to player preference and playstyle. I think that the Fire Warriors gained an overall edge on the Kroot in 6th but this is advantage is mostly offset by the kroots ability to be area denial units that keep ccb's and other such stuff from popping up right next to your fire base.
IMO, A kroot unit or two is worth it just to deal with the Newcrons. Currently I'm running a balanced mixed list.
droidman wrote:I tried using my barracuda model, it arrived, I blinked, it died.
I am stunned as to why Forgeworld put only 2HP on the air superiority fighters for each race when the FAQ was released, since all the GW flyers all came with 3.
I suspect that Forgeworld puts a big point premium on the range of the ion cannon, on large boards I can see it being useful however on the small standard GW table sizes, you can't hide from quad guns and those will annihilate you.
Until Forgeworld updates the rules, just leave these guys on the shelf, they are too fragile for their point cost and using up a valuable HS slot.
I think the 2hp's on the Barracuda is due to GW not wanting an existing model competing with the new plastic kit that the rumours suggest we are soon getting. After we have had our flyers for a bit, I bet that the Barracuda will get updated with better stats.
Stormcrow wrote:Also, I'll ask again: What about frag launchers now on an HQ? With the new buff to barrage and no cover (and ap5), this would be a great thing to take in a general list, I'd think, so you can snipe out certain wargear and deal with the inevetable horde armies such as orks, guard, and nids that will be more popular now. I could be wrong, so I'd love to hear from other people.
The AFP is OK to good, depending on player preference, playstyle and commander build.
Personally, I never put one on a Commander. Instead I either put it on a rare bodyguard or I put it on an elite crisis shas'vre with MP or BC.
Prefer my commanders to have heavy hitters like plasmas w/CIB's, Fusion, Missile pods. If I don't twin-link the plasma then I slip in a flamer on the 3rd hard-point.
A Town Called Malus wrote:Not sure whether BSF would be worth it on a Devilfish. Its basic guns are all short range so they'll be getting +1 to cover saves at maximum, which you won't even notice if they have an armour save of 4+ or better.
Do SMS still flat out ignore the effects of Night Fighting? It seems that the FAQ removed the sentence which said so, which is annoying as I guess that means that people will still get cover saves from Stealth granted by Night Fighting unless not requiring LOS completely negates Night Fighting bonuses automatically.
You answered your own question there.
Also, BSFs are a good idea for the Pathfinder Devilfish if you plan on deepstriking some of your 'suits. Reason is that night fight can be beyond turn 1(especially with the crons) and in order to get the re-roll on the Deep Strike, the point has to be visible to the Devilfish.
Avro wrote:Turn 1 I hopped my fws into the fish moved it flat out across the board (lovely cover saves i might add). FWs toppled out from the fish, shot some far off units, and assaulted a Leman Russ.
Since you cannot assault out of vehicles now, how did your FW survive the turn after they deployed?
Turn 2 they moved out of the fish around 8" from the leman russ and moved behind some forest. Devilfish moved side ways from the fws and away from the leman russ (now in forest). Turn 2, Opponent ignores my fws but tries to shoot devilfish with a leman russ that moved behind my fws, but devilfish gets its cover save. Turn 3, Leman russ is open for fws to charge. The rest you know
Guys regarding Eldar allies, someone earlier mentioned the possibility of running a farseer and eldar pathfinders as allies. I like this idea and am planning some kroot conversion projects for this purpose. Looking at psychic powers the eldar dex, doom seems like an auto-take: however I'm guessing due to the wording of guide we can't use it to help Tau units? Any thoughts on which of the divination or telepathy powers would best benefit our units as a 2nd psychic power?
Micky wrote:Hi, i'm new here, just coming back to the game since quitting around the time the Necrons first appeared as a single warrior in White Dwarf during 3rd edition.
But, on the other hand, Markerlights are a heavy weapon.
So suddenly, marker drones attached to Crisis teams or Stealth suits (and thus counting as jetpacks) can now move and fire on the same turn. So that's cool. What else?
Stealth team leaders can equip markerlights too.
So what do you think about the idea of having a Stealth team out there, in cover somewhere so getting a 2+ or 3+ cover save, able to be highly mobile and dash from cover to cover and still paint targets for Seeker Missiles and whatnot, and burn down the heaviest of charging infantry or vehicles that come too close....
Add some marker drones and suddenly we're talking 3 highly mobile markerlights with some awesome cover saves and mobility.
Stealth marker teams used to be really great, till GW took our Target lock away from suits and infantry. The way to go now is Forge World Tetras, if you want good markerlights. Actually I think Tetras and Skyrays are the most solid anti-flyer Tau have at the moment.
troy_tempest wrote:Guys regarding Eldar allies, someone earlier mentioned the possibility of running a farseer and eldar pathfinders as allies. I like this idea and am planning some kroot conversion projects for this purpose. Looking at psychic powers the eldar dex, doom seems like an auto-take: however I'm guessing due to the wording of guide we can't use it to help Tau units? Any thoughts on which of the divination or telepathy powers would best benefit our units as a 2nd psychic power?
The thing is you have to swap all of your psychic powers for the book ones. You can't buy Doom and then the cheapest one, keep Doom and swap the other for a Book Power.
On the bright side you aren't limited to one lore from the book so you could buy all the Eldar powers, get lucky on your rolls for Divination (which is arguably the best lore for Tau), getting all the powers you wanted from it and then roll for the rest on the Telepathy table.
I like the first power for Divination a bit more than the primaris power
Twin linking is good and all, but I think overwatch at normal BS is pretty rocking.
Imagine, your HQ( a Centurion)attached to a squad of three bladestorms get charged. You overwatch at normal BS. So at Normal BS you would get 8(two at BS 5) plasma shots, 9 Burst Cannon Shots, and five CIB shots(at BS5).
That is 22 shots. Lets say a squad of 10 Assault Marines, in two ranks of 5, with Chainsword/Pistol charge you. and roll an 8 with the reroll(i'm just rolling dice IRL for it) and JUST make it.
So at BS 1(normal overwatch) all around, you are looking at: one plasma hit, one burst cannon hit and a whiff on the cib.
Plasma wounds, burst cannon does not. One dead Assault Marine, you just traded almost 300 points for about 20 points.
At normal BS? 5 Plasma hits, 5 Burst cannon hits, 5 CIB hits.
5 wounds on plasma,4 wounds on Burst Cannons, one AP1 wound on CIB.
They take 4 armor saves on the burst cannon and pass all of them. So you killed 6 Marines with Overwatch and now they are out of charge range because you killed the first rank.
troy_tempest wrote:Guys regarding Eldar allies, someone earlier mentioned the possibility of running a farseer and eldar pathfinders as allies. I like this idea and am planning some kroot conversion projects for this purpose. Looking at psychic powers the eldar dex, doom seems like an auto-take: however I'm guessing due to the wording of guide we can't use it to help Tau units? Any thoughts on which of the divination or telepathy powers would best benefit our units as a 2nd psychic power?
I have tried out a list a couple times with a farseer with 2 powers, and both kinds of runes with some firewarriors in a lascannon bastion. This gives me a nice little rock-hard distraction unit and an anchor for my army (not to mention a BS5 skyfire weapon). Then a fire prism, broadside and 2 railheads, a Crisis team with Shas'el, a squad of eldar pathfinders, a squad of Tau pathfinders, a squad of firewarriors for the devilfish, a squad of kroot, and in the last list a squad of striking scorpions, and a stealth team.
The mobile army with all kinds of units infiltrating was really useful, and the fire prism works really well with the 2 railheads. That AP2 blast is by far the best way to kill terminators/marines without loading up on plasma suits.
The Farseer with the divination primaris power and (luckily) the malediction that forces your opponent to re-roll successful saves was very powerful, allowing me to laugh at the assault marines with FNP. And yeah, since most of the eldar powers are eldar-specific, it is best to just go with the random ones.
When taking eldar as allies I say always, always, take divination. If you can manage to get misfortune on one of your rolls it will be a game changer. A squad of fire warriors will have a decent chance at knocking out a termie squad with reroll to hit and the enemy rerolling saves. Also being able to make the guy reroll his lucky tank cover save to keep your railgun from exploding it is priceless. Helps out a lot vs our many power armoured foes in the game. Now all we gotta do is appease the codex gods so we can get an update before 7th edition comes out...
I think Divination and telepathy are good choices together.
Let's say you are like me and gave up kroot for the Farseer. You have nothing to deter assault(or slow it down), but if the assault Marines( i like then as an example) just got shot at from the Vindicator that was rolling right behind them, thanks to Puppet Master, or if the Assault marines were pinned, or if they Failed a Leadership test and just booked it the other direction, or if they just turn on one another instead of assaulting your suits, you just saved your bacon for a turn.
I also like what the cinematic view would be. A guiding hand for your Battle brothers, a balled fist to all that oppose the Greater Good.
Now played 2 games of 6th with tau. The biggest boost for tau is the ability to premeasure? IMHO this is huge. So much of the game with tau is keeping to the range sweet spot - close enough to shoot the enemy, but far enough away to avoid being shot or assaulted. Now you no longer need to judge it, you can measure it. Couple this with how survivable shield drones make crisis teams, and crisi suits are much more powerful.
I totally agree with earlier comments - static gun lines are a thing of the past. It's harder to block with vehicles now ( hit on 3+ in assault), and kroot screens are also much more fragile (5+ cover, and focused fire). Couple this with the ability to put a "tanking" bullet catcher up front, and it's way easier to get into a static gun line. Mobility is key.
Which brings me to a question - in 5th I had given up on hammerheads, running broadsides exclusively. With a multi tracker, and SMS, the hammerhead can always move 12 and fire everything...! The vehicle damage changes actually mean that av13 is OK at range, and likely to keep shooting for longer. Combine that with an expected decrease in vehicles in 6th and more infantry (submunitions large blast), and hammer heads are looking better. Thoughts?
Finally, in theory eldrad is awesome with 4 rolls on the divination table. Howev, I played him in one of my games and the problem was he was way too static.
Iur_tae_mont wrote:I think Divination and telepathy are good choices together.
Let's say you are like me and gave up kroot for the Farseer. You have nothing to deter assault(or slow it down), but if the assault Marines( i like then as an example) just got shot at from the Vindicator that was rolling right behind them, thanks to Puppet Master, or if the Assault marines were pinned, or if they Failed a Leadership test and just booked it the other direction, or if they just turn on one another instead of assaulting your suits, you just saved your bacon for a turn.
I also like what the cinematic view would be. A guiding hand for your Battle brothers, a balled fist to all that oppose the Greater Good.
Yeah but if you had a mastery level 3 farseer, you need 2 rolls on div tbh, and then you have a 1/6 of getting puppet master ;( So you could end up with crap, which is why i think you have to focus on one school unless you get the spells you need and have spare rolls, 3 crisis suits with plas and fusions rerollign to hit with opponent rerolling saves, thats pretty much 7 - 8 dead terminators or 4 - 5 paladins
As to tau and eldar, what about farseer on a jetbike. That way he can join a suit squad and not cut it's mobility. Getting perfect timing on a suit squad woud be to die for.
Embrace your inner geek wrote:Great thread. My 2p worth.
Now played 2 games of 6th with tau. The biggest boost for tau is the ability to premeasure? IMHO this is huge. So much of the game with tau is keeping to the range sweet spot - close enough to shoot the enemy, but far enough away to avoid being shot or assaulted. Now you no longer need to judge it, you can measure it. Couple this with how survivable shield drones make crisis teams, and crisi suits are much more powerful.
I've had the same experience. You can always reposition 18.1" from an opposing unit to shoot, and be sure that he can't charge you the following turn. I had to bring some outflanking kroot in on a table edge that was covered by a unit of 6 noise marines with sonic blasters, and instead of suiciding them in an area with no cover, I just brought them on 31" away from the noise marines.
I was also able to "kite" several deathstar units by surrounding them with small shooting units and staying just outside their assault range. This is a lot easier to do now, both because of premeasuring and because everything can shoot on the move. This works especially well in the endgame of a battle--kill all the support units, then when the deathstar finally arrives at your fireline, just kite them around until they die or until the game ends.
And finally, I started to see the importance of having units that can get around the back of an enemy unit. The 2+ save guy at the front can soak a heck of a lot of fire (and I was doing the same thing with an iridium-armored FNP commander leading a unit of fire warriors), so you need to be able to move firepower around the flanks to hit the more-vulnerable 3+ save guys.
Also the big win of the day was the unit of 6 firewarriors wrecking two 4-hullpoint ghost arks with EMP grenades. It took them a couple of turns to do it, but AR13 doesn't matter when you're hitting on a 3+ and taking away a hullpoint on a 4+. The necron player could have flown away, but he wanted to move slow and shoot, so that was the end of his skimmers.
Also, anyone any views on taking Tau as Allies that can be across the table turn 1? EG, Infiltrate Kroot & DS Crisis/HQ suits.
I'm currently running two small squads of 14 kroot each and infiltrating them every game is a must. It keeps my opponent somewhat honest in his deployment when he knows I have that many models as a mobile wall/tarpit still waiting to be placed. (probably will go down to one large squad and an aegis line in the future) You may have to take the compulsary 1+ Firewarrior team, but please someone correct me if I'm wrong.
As for deep striking, there is little value from deep striking crisis suits. Unless you're carrying burst cannons and flamers, you're looking at a 24" bubble for your plasma and even farther (36" IIRC) for your missile pods. You can deploy them as normal and have them fire from afar and the safety of cover. Deep striking, from my experience, leaves you with a potential for a bad scatter and a dead crisis team. If you want to deep strike suits, go for steath suits. Those bad boys cary a 4+ cover with them everywhere they go and with up to 6 burst cannons? that's a horde army's worst nightmare (and tons of potential for failed saves against MEQ). They can also outflank them which I feel is much better. You get remove the unpredictability of the deepstrike scatter with the potential for coming in on one of the table sides (With a reroll if you don't like it from acute senses). It works well when you're playing on long table edges and even better on short. I've only played corners once so far but I would deep strike then as you have to cover much more ground and your zone for entry is a bit akward.
On a seperate note, finally got my first tank all magnetized up and played it as a hammerhead with a railgun and SMS. That thing is a monster! I had little cover on this map to start it in (opponent likes to use the heavy AT weaponry) so I reserved it. It came in turn 2 and the jink save made it a ridiculous armor killing machine.
Also, anyone any views on taking Tau as Allies that can be across the table turn 1? EG, Infiltrate Kroot & DS Crisis/HQ suits.
I'm currently running two small squads of 14 kroot each and infiltrating them every game is a must. It keeps my opponent somewhat honest in his deployment when he knows I have that many models as a mobile wall/tarpit still waiting to be placed. (probably will go down to one large squad and an aegis line in the future) You may have to take the compulsary 1+ Firewarrior team, but please someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Aye, that's what I would do, use them as a psycological threat to HWS etc.
STUFF ABOUT BATTLESUIT TACTICS.
I would Infiltrate Stealth suits next to something anyway, but DS a Crisis HQ + bodyguard w/ shot range stuff + Failsafe Detonator. Theory is to pop that LR (hopefully killing a few/pinning the TH/SS nators as they disembark), whittle them down with shooting via Overwatch w/ Fusion, Burst, Cyclic & Flamer, & then Failsafe Detonate to hopefully kill the rest after getting TH-whipped. Obviously the Detonator would be on the Bodyguard.
So I'm still throwing my first army together and decided to join in on The Greater Good. Reading through and looking at models in my decision for what army I knew that I wanted a lot of drones, shield and gun alike. With 6e coming out it looks like gun drones just got a lot more viable. Is there a good/best way to throw together an army that has a lot of drones on the table with the new rule set?
IHateNids wrote:Spam FW squads w/ maxed drones (2 as part of unit, 2 with Shas'Ui), pop them off your tanks, grab as many as possible with Battlesuits. Thats about it
Unless I'm missing something a unit of Fire Warriors can only have a maximum of two drones, which are those taken by a Shas'ui with a Drone Controller. They don't have the option to take them just as part of the unit.
IHateNids wrote:Spam FW squads w/ maxed drones (2 as part of unit, 2 with Shas'Ui), pop them off your tanks, grab as many as possible with Battlesuits. Thats about it
Unless I'm missing something a unit of Fire Warriors can only have a maximum of two drones, which are those taken by a Shas'ui with a Drone Controller. They don't have the option to take them just as part of the unit.
You're correct, only the Shas'ui can take 2 drone.
Sorry, I should rephrase. I know how to build an army with as many drones as possible, but I'm curious as if any of you experienced Tau generals can enlighten me as to whether it would be viable to run gun drone squads and stealth suits with gun drones and all of that fun stuff with the new rules. I know I would personally have more fun running an army like that and that's at very least half the battle, but would/could it be an army that is at all competitive?
IHateNids wrote:Spam FW squads w/ maxed drones (2 as part of unit, 2 with Shas'Ui), pop them off your tanks, grab as many as possible with Battlesuits. Thats about it
Actually, spam vespids in full squads slotted in for all your fast attack choises. Then your opponent will be so confused he'll poop his pants in terror!
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Flavius Infernus wrote:Great thread. My 2p worth.
Also the big win of the day was the unit of 6 firewarriors wrecking two 4-hullpoint ghost arks with EMP grenades. It took them a couple of turns to do it, but AR13 doesn't matter when you're hitting on a 3+ and taking away a hullpoint on a 4+. The necron player could have flown away, but he wanted to move slow and shoot, so that was the end of his skimmers.
Are you finding it worthwhile to equip emp-nades with your fws?
IHateNids wrote:Spam FW squads w/ maxed drones (2 as part of unit, 2 with Shas'Ui), pop them off your tanks, grab as many as possible with Battlesuits. Thats about it
Unless I'm missing something a unit of Fire Warriors can only have a maximum of two drones, which are those taken by a Shas'ui with a Drone Controller. They don't have the option to take them just as part of the unit.
You're correct, only the Shas'ui can take 2 drone.
I am aware of that, I meant popping the ones off the 'Fish they just jumped out of and move them around together, as if they were a single unit (unless they can join the FW, which i am sure they can't).
IHateNids wrote:Spam FW squads w/ maxed drones (2 as part of unit, 2 with Shas'Ui), pop them off your tanks, grab as many as possible with Battlesuits. Thats about it
Actually, spam vespids in full squads slotted in for all your fast attack choises. Then your opponent will be so confused he'll poop his pants in terror!
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Flavius Infernus wrote:
Also the big win of the day was the unit of 6 firewarriors wrecking two 4-hullpoint ghost arks with EMP grenades. It took them a couple of turns to do it, but AR13 doesn't matter when you're hitting on a 3+ and taking away a hullpoint on a 4+. The necron player could have flown away, but he wanted to move slow and shoot, so that was the end of his skimmers.
Are you finding it worthwhile to equip emp-nades with your fws?
I'm finding it worthwhile to equip small units of 6 fire warriors with EMP. It's like giving the squad a 6-shot antitank weapon with a potential range of up to 18"--something that fire warriors have always lacked. With EMP, a unit of fire warriors dug into cover can do area denial against vehicles in a way they couldn't before. Even a land raider will hesitate to go near them. Because the unit is small and cheap, you don't mind sacrificing it.
Incidentally, the small unit also benefits from a Shas'ui upgrade, since they make a lot of leadership tests.
EMP grenades on units of 12 fire warriors might be overkill in terms of cost. I haven't tried it out yet. They could kill the crap out of any vehicles that came near them, but 36 points is pretty steep.
IHateNids wrote:Spam FW squads w/ maxed drones (2 as part of unit, 2 with Shas'Ui), pop them off your tanks, grab as many as possible with Battlesuits. Thats about it
Actually, spam vespids in full squads slotted in for all your fast attack choises. Then your opponent will be so confused he'll poop his pants in terror!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flavius Infernus wrote:
Also the big win of the day was the unit of 6 firewarriors wrecking two 4-hullpoint ghost arks with EMP grenades. It took them a couple of turns to do it, but AR13 doesn't matter when you're hitting on a 3+ and taking away a hullpoint on a 4+. The necron player could have flown away, but he wanted to move slow and shoot, so that was the end of his skimmers.
Are you finding it worthwhile to equip emp-nades with your fws?
I'm finding it worthwhile to equip small units of 6 fire warriors with EMP. It's like giving the squad a 6-shot antitank weapon with a potential range of up to 18"--something that fire warriors have always lacked. With EMP, a unit of fire warriors dug into cover can do area denial against vehicles in a way they couldn't before. Even a land raider will hesitate to go near them. Because the unit is small and cheap, you don't mind sacrificing it.
Incidentally, the small unit also benefits from a Shas'ui upgrade, since they make a lot of leadership tests.
EMP grenades on units of 12 fire warriors might be overkill in terms of cost. I haven't tried it out yet. They could kill the crap out of any vehicles that came near them, but 36 points is pretty steep.
People happily pay 15pts per for 3-4 blasters to provide anti-tank in trueborn squads, and that's about the same effectiveness at tank-killing, at 18".
4 Blasterborn is 108pts for the 4 str8 lance anti-tank shots, a squad of 6 EMP Fire Warriors is 78pts for a similar level of killiness with 12 being 156 for improved killiness.
To be honest, I think squads of 8 for 104 will probably be the best middle-graound, with improved killiness+ threat range, with being a reasonable price.
Correct me if I'm wrong but if you equip a shas'ui with EMP the whole squad gets it and you dont have to pay the individual price. (FAQ under grey knights i think at one time about a char equiped with grenades making the whole squad have them, not sure it applies to all codex)
Tun_Tau wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but if you equip a shas'ui with EMP the whole squad gets it and you dont have to pay the individual price. (FAQ under grey knights i think at one time about a char equiped with grenades making the whole squad have them, not sure it applies to all codex)
Those are special grenades with specific rules. I don't think that'll apply to Tau EMP grenades.
IHateNids wrote: I would Infiltrate Stealth suits next to something anyway, but DS a Crisis HQ + bodyguard w/ shot range stuff + Failsafe Detonator. Theory is to pop that LR (hopefully killing a few/pinning the TH/SS nators as they disembark), whittle them down with shooting via Overwatch w/ Fusion, Burst, Cyclic & Flamer, & then Failsafe Detonate to hopefully kill the rest after getting TH-whipped. Obviously the Detonator would be on the Bodyguard.
It took me a while to think of the best way to approach what you're trying to do and I think I've found it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
What you're looking for is a way to quickly get into range and pop a transport of any size with a unit and mop up the units inside. You've got the first half correct, but the second half (leaving someone to die with the failsafe) doesn't seem that solid to me. Allow me to suggest an alternative:
Going for the most cost-effective method, I would recommend an HQ wielding TL Fusion and something else, doesn't matter right now. For the sake of this, we'll say flamer as a backup weapon. You complement this by attaching him to a stealth squad. Three troops with 1 fusion and 2 burst cannons. This confers the Stealth/Shrouded rules onto your HQ as well as allows it to infiltrate with them.
This is where you infiltrate the squad as close as you can to the enemies (18" is alright here, but 12" w/o LOS would be best) and it comes to your turn? Jump in 6", blow the everloving crap out of your target with your fusion blasters and then assault move the exact opposite direction of the now pissed off termies. Worst case? You're in charge range and now you have really REALLY strong weapons to fire in overwatch (remember, your HQ is twinlinked). But most likely you'll travel about 7 inches and be outside of their potential charge range and you'll be able to shoot again next turn (even soaking up fire from other units. Remember your 4+ cover!)
DJano wrote:Sorry, I should rephrase. I know how to build an army with as many drones as possible, but I'm curious as if any of you experienced Tau generals can enlighten me as to whether it would be viable to run gun drone squads and stealth suits with gun drones and all of that fun stuff with the new rules. I know I would personally have more fun running an army like that and that's at very least half the battle, but would/could it be an army that is at all competitive?
Gun drone squads are very viable. I find that with the Fire Warriors now taking grenades and there now being reasons to take team leaders and BSF's that I no longer have the points for my piranha squadron but still have points for a gundrone squadron.
A Deep Striking Gundrone squadron supported with markerlights can be exceedingly effective as an objective denial unit, can do damage to rear armour 10, and can be a real problem for heavy weapon and artillery teams.
A Stealth Team of 3 Stealthsuits(One is a Teamleader)equipped with either, TA's and a hwdc on the Team leader, or just drone controllers on the entire team is effective and costs between 130-ish and 150-ish points. I just have a hard time sacrificing the slot that can be used for crisis suit fire power.
I recommend that you take only a single team each of the stealthsuits and gundrones. If you want more drones then I'd suggest attaching them to Fire Warrior teams, Crisis Teams and if you realy want more drones then skip the Hammerhead and take some sniper(stealth) drones.
I'm not saying that these units are super competitive, just that they are useful and can present a problem to opponents because they're tactics differ from the Tau norm.
Ovion wrote:
Flavius Infernus wrote:
I'm finding it worthwhile to equip small units of 6 fire warriors with EMP. It's like giving the squad a 6-shot antitank weapon with a potential range of up to 18"--something that fire warriors have always lacked. With EMP, a unit of fire warriors dug into cover can do area denial against vehicles in a way they couldn't before. Even a land raider will hesitate to go near them. Because the unit is small and cheap, you don't mind sacrificing it.
Incidentally, the small unit also benefits from a Shas'ui upgrade, since they make a lot of leadership tests.
EMP grenades on units of 12 fire warriors might be overkill in terms of cost. I haven't tried it out yet. They could kill the crap out of any vehicles that came near them, but 36 points is pretty steep.
To be honest, I think squads of 8 for 104 will probably be the best middle-graound, with improved killiness+ threat range, with being a reasonable price.
^This!
Squads of 8 Fire Warriors or 8 Fire Warriors+1 gundrone have been the magic number. I run Team Leaders with BSFs and hwdc if they have pulse rifles and just hwdc if they have carbines.
(BTW, don't throw away your carbines, got a feeling that they may get the Blind rule or some other goodness in the next 'Dex.)
Tun_Tau wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but if you equip a shas'ui with EMP the whole squad gets it and you dont have to pay the individual price. (FAQ under grey knights i think at one time about a char equiped with grenades making the whole squad have them, not sure it applies to all codex)
Unfortunately, only the Team Leader would have the EMP Grenades. This means only one grenade on the assault.
Remember that EMP's can not be thrown until they get faqed as having the Haywire rule.
I'm still using my old standbys, Centurion(Cib/Plasma/TA) Shas'el, a squad of Bladestorms(BC/Plasma), a Squad of Fireknives(Plasma/Missile), and a squad of Deathrains(TL missile with BSF).
The Commander with the Bladestorms and hunt troops, the Deathrains hunt MCs, Tanks, and anything I can ID with them, and the Fireknives support whatever team needs it the most.
I used this setup in most of 5th and in a couple games in 6th with pretty decent success.
The reason I often drop a Stealth Squad and a HQ+bodyguards together is to pop a transport (lets say a land raider full of termies) with the Stealth Suit Fusion, then rapid fire what comes out with Plasma and Fusion. IF the Nators aren't TH/SS, ie Lightning Claws, statisticaly you cannot fail to mow them down using 6 Plasma shots & three Fusion shots (each battlesuit has a Plasma Rifle & a Fusion Blaster, the two bodyguards a Targetting Array so are BS5). The Failsafe is there as a precaution, in case they are still in charge range. Bearing in mind I haven't played Tau in 6th yet, so I don't know what works and what dosent, so the Detonator might not be as important now.
The Failsafe is for those times you get assaulted by a 30-man strong Ork Blob. You will lose due to weightof attacks, and a S8 Pie plate for them when they win is a bonus
I just realized something else about Tau piranhas.
Because of the 6E rules they can no longer pull the trick where they zoom up and contest an objective in the late game.\
But their drones can contest.
You have to plan ahead a turn to disembark the drones after moving 6", but the bigger disembark zone and the 30" fast skimmer move means they can pretty much get anywhere on the table in 2 turns.
I've been seeng a lot of threadss asking for basic Tau tactics. I think it is time that we start discussing the basics and how they have changed with the new ruleset.
Things like what Flavius Infernus noticed with the Piranhas and the Gundrones. There is a greater need to think several moves ahead in this edition and the game has become more fluid.
To deal with this fluidity I think many Tau players are going to have to adapt their tactics.
Many of us have been influenced by the hunter tactics described in the Tau fluff. The principles of the Kauyon and Mont'ka are still good clues as to how to play the Tau but the rules of the past several editions may have bread in some habits that will be problems in 5th.
Let me explain:
When dealing with concept of hunters and traps, there will be a tendency by Tau players to attempt to create a static trap point. We are going to have to abandon that concept and work for fluid trap points that reveal themselves every turn.
What I mean is that instead of planning to hit your opponent at a specific point on turn 3, that you will find that your bait unit has changed from one turn to the next and that you will use mobility to neutralize threats and to open fire lanes to new priority targets.
Now doing this will require some subtlety. Think Chess, where you work towards the suprise check or checkmate. Your opponent sees nothing then move one unit and suddenly he loses a vital unit.
Also, don't hesitate on using Jedi Mind tricks and misleading body language. I am not saying to lie, When your opponent asks a direct question then answer truthfully. I am saying that if you can position your forces and manage to look more concerned about one unit over your others that you canlead your opponent to making poor targeting choices. This tactic is called playing the player rather than playing his army.
Will post more later. Look forward to your feedback, tactics and ideas.
focusedfire wrote:When dealing with concept of hunters and traps, there will be a tendency by Tau players to attempt to create a static trap point. We are going to have to abandon that concept and work for fluid trap points that reveal themselves every turn.
What I mean is that instead of planning to hit your opponent at a specific point on turn 3, that you will find that your bait unit has changed from one turn to the next and that you will use mobility to neutralize threats and to open fire lanes to new priority targets.
Now doing this will require some subtlety. Think Chess, where you work towards the suprise check or checkmate. Your opponent sees nothing then move one unit and suddenly he loses a vital unit. Also, don't hesitate on using Jedi Mind tricks and misleading body language. I am not saying to lie, When your opponent asks a direct question then answer truthfully. I am saying that if you can position your forces and manage to look more concerned about one unit over your others that you canlead your opponent to making poor targeting choices. This tactic is called playing the player rather than playing his army.
This I completely agree with. Moving your troops to mask your true objective is an important task to follow yet difficult to learn how to execute properly. I may try to batrep my next game that talks through my goals when doing stuff like this. I'm no expert, but I can help put people on the right track of understanding the basics.
But the bigger, more challenging half of the coin is picking up on your opponent's moves. What are they trying to do? It's easy to look too deep into it, but not looking at the whole picture can cost you valuable units. I know my last game I got a bit too confident and didn't look at my opponent's entire picture. Suddenly I had an enemy squad deep striking behind my broadside team and got them wiped out. Granted, he overextended with that and both teams that deep struck behind my lines were wiped out with sheer amounts of firepower from my troops but it stuck with me because it could have been worse (thankfully no assaulting out of reserves!)
On a unit tactics topic, I've been toying with the idea of rail rifles for pathfinders. I know it drops the possibility of markerlights, but what I'm gaining is a rifle that ignores armor of MEQ units...as well as a free target lock that currently does nothing. I wouldn't be able to split my fire, but I would be able to focus a tremendous amount of firepower onto one unit by filling out the unit with regular pathfinders to supplement subsequent squads firing into it. Thoughts?
I used to run rail-rifles on my pathfinders, but I find them not as useful now that they can't split fire. Sure they are awesome weapons, but not always suited to shooting at what you are trying to mark up. And they were an easy item to exchange for sensor spines.
I was talking to my local GW manager the other day about the changes to Tau with the new rules. It eventually got onto what we expect to see in the new codex when it eventually comes out.
He said he could see Target Locks coming back but granting the model equipped with it Precision Shots. 'Course this is completely just wishlisting but if that did happen then Railfinders and Sniper Drones would become amazing snipers against MEQs and below thanks to it's better wounding chance than a normal sniper rifle and always on AP value.
a) Take 6 teams of 6-8 FW b) Field our FW in 3 blocks (2 teams per block, across our deployment)
c) Have our teams mixed with each other in each block
d) If, and when, charged, fire off at max 32 S5 AP5 shots on overwatch
If so, would it be better with 3 teams per block, firing at max 48 S5 AP5 shots on overwatch
YotsubaSnake wrote:[On a unit tactics topic, I've been toying with the idea of rail rifles for pathfinders. I know it drops the possibility of markerlights, but what I'm gaining is a rifle that ignores armor of MEQ units...as well as a free target lock that currently does nothing. I wouldn't be able to split my fire, but I would be able to focus a tremendous amount of firepower onto one unit by filling out the unit with regular pathfinders to supplement subsequent squads firing into it. Thoughts?
First, thank both you and focused for the part that I edited out. I found the concept of working for a fluid turn by turn trap point somewhat enlightening.
Second, to answer your question about the Rail Rifles.
Either do it on a 3rd Pathfinder team(Keep it small) or leave the Hammerhead home and bring the Stealth/sniper drones. The Sniper drones lined out on the board edge with the drones slightly in front of the spotter are much more survivable than in the past.
HeadRipper wrote:Is this a viable tactic:
a) Take 6 teams of 6-8 FW b) Field our FW in 3 blocks (2 teams per block, across our deployment)
c) Have our teams mixed with each other in each block
d) If, and when, charged, fire off at max 32 S5 AP5 shots on overwatch
If so, would it be better with 3 teams per block, firing at max 48 S5 AP5 shots on overwatch
I would go with 2 teams per block to lower the risk of a single assault wiping half your troops.
Also, when doing this, you can save points in the photon grenades and the drones. What I mean by this is that if you are interweaving two units to force disordered assaults then only one unit needs to have the photons. With the drones, If you are planing on using one of your Shas'ui to challenge the power weapon/high number of attacks character then leave that Shas'ui droneless.
Of course this is assuming that we can remain mobile enough while doing such and against the IG Ordinance it might be best to forget about the interweaving tactic. It is a trick best used on assault armies.
Now my question to you is what else will you put into this build?
My suggestions would be:
-Maybe a Devifish for each two troop units. The Tau vehicles come with stems that are the right height to allow them to be mobile cover.
-Your going to need some Crisis suits and Broadsides.
-After the suits&sides, points will be getting tight but that many fire warriors are going to need some markerlight support.
@All posters- Was wondering, "What do you guys think about putting a Guardian Defender Squad with a weapon platform and a warlock inside of an Aegis line?
My thought on this was to join a Fortune/Guide Farseer to the unit, Have the Farseer man the Icarus Lascannon and the Warlock shooting a BrightLance or Missile Launcher on the Weapon Platform.
My only questions about this are:
1- Can the Warlock man the Defenders Weapon Platform?
2-Does the Aegis gun emplacement=Artillery?
3-Or, do I have to use the Eldar Support Batteries to get the improved Warlock BS and the Artillery T7 goodness?
Any help on these questions will be appreciated. Thnx
Captain Avatar wrote:
Second, to answer your question about the Rail Rifles.
Either do it on a 3rd Pathfinder team(Keep it small) or leave the Hammerhead home and bring the Stealth/sniper drones. The Sniper drones lined out on the board edge with the drones slightly in front of the spotter are much more survivable than in the past.
The reason why I ask is that I have a pirahna that's doing jack-all except rush in like a madman and quickly get blown up. Sure, it's soaking up fire but that's currently 80+ points for a decoy that gets blown up shortly after it comes out of reserves. It has yet to earn its points back so I'm wondering if I can improve that area. Rail Rifles would provide me with much more opportunity for recouping value, but they're so damn expensive. A decent team with rifles is much more than a lone kited out pirahna, I just feel they would be more survivable.
On tactics with rail rifes, could I fire on a target with the rifles + markerlight and, given that they have to take a pinning test from the rifles, use a markerlight to help them fail it? That would be ridiculous to slow down light and medium armored infantry squads. (leave the TEQ to the specalized weaponry)
On tactics with rail rifes, could I fire on a target with the rifles + markerlight and, given that they have to take a pinning test from the rifles, use a markerlight to help them fail it? That would be ridiculous to slow down light and medium armored infantry squads. (leave the TEQ to the specalized weaponry)
That would only work from Networked Markerlights from the same unit (so Marker Drones) or Markerlight hits from a different unit. They couldn't use the Markerlight hits from the normal Pathfinders in their own unit.
WanderingMinstrel wrote:There are a few good tacticas around on the use of devilfish as mobile cover. Do a search.
iI assume you mean the sea turtle tactic of moving back and forth in a triangle format while moving your fire warriors down center.
In other news iv noticed that even though there is less cover and weaker vehicles I find it still important to take marker lights, at the least to strip jink saves then raise BS. Though I haven’t used it for leadership yet
I would imagine there'd be a minor additional benefit in that they could issue / accept challenges, but yes - it's still 21pts for the grand total of no real benefit.
If the 6+ was automatically confered to the squad when you bought the shaper, It'd be worth it... but as is...
guys i got : 1) 3 crysis ( 1 is the hq) 2)1 Etherial 3)12 kroot 4)24 Fire wariors 5)sniper them ( btw they are very usefull still) 6)1 delfish and im planing to buy and 1 broadside
but what else? im thinking of taking Eldar whith farseer , but i dont know what else ( as i dont know nothing good for Eldar) Or is better to take more Tau units?and if yes what type? and one last thing : is in my curent army Aegis defence whoth?
IHateNids wrote:I thought with the new challenges, it might be worth it. 5 attacks will make a mess of most MEQ, even though it is 5+ to wound
Kroot are S4.
Ok, I thought they were S3, but that is just the hounds isn't it?
Hounds are S4 too. Point for point Hounds are better than normal kroot as they cost 1 point less and are I5.
I don't have any hounds, would you recommend getting some?
If you use Kroot often then I would recommend getting some Hounds. It's all the strengths of a normal kroot mercenary but the advantage of getting to strike before I4 units like Marines, which can reduce the number of attacks coming back your way, which for T3 no save models is quite important.
Would be interesting if you could do hounds + a shaper, but as it is the Kroot Unit comp = Kroot: 7pts per, 10-20 (One can be made a Shaper) Kroot Hound: 6pts per, 0-12 Krootox Rider: 35pts per, 0-3
Infact, having it as a default of buy 1 Shaper, then choose a number of Kroot / Hounds instead of a mix would be nice...
Has anyone tried using Krootox riders yet? With the changes to Rapid Fire the Kroot Gun is actually useful now as it's basically a Autocannon at up to 24" and still able to threaten light vehicles up to 48".
Not to mention it has 3 wounds so it's harder to snipe out of a unit than other heavy weapons in squads.
A sniper getting two sixes (1 to hit and 1 to wound) = 1 dead marine carrying a missile launcher. With a 4 or 5 to wound it's still a 1/3rd chance of that missile launcher ending up dead.
Against a krootox either situation is 2W left on our autocannon, try again next time.
This scenario, 2 Sniper Teams and a squad of 8 FW (squad number derived from prev posts).
Markerlight the tactical squad with the FW, and open fire. 16 Shots, 1.7 Wounds. Then boost the first squad of Sniper Drones to BS4 against that squad of marines, 1.66 dead marines, using their ML to make next squad BS5, averaging at 2.08 dead marines, average 1 precision shot overall. So thats already whittling down marine squads to half strength doing 5.44 wounds, perfect for being overwatched and whittled further at long range, think this is viable? Sniper drones wont die with their stealth field generators, and FW will always have possibility to die.
Each turn this setup will provide a target for the opponent, as attrition starts to set in, and provided they dont get crushed in first 2 turns they should make points back. As well as this it will be pinning ork blobs and guard blobs if you can precision the commissars face
Orkaswampa wrote:This scenario, 2 Sniper Teams and a squad of 8 FW (squad number derived from prev posts).
Markerlight the tactical squad with the FW, and open fire. 16 Shots, 1.7 Wounds. Then boost the first squad of Sniper Drones to BS4 against that squad of marines, 1.66 dead marines, using their ML to make next squad BS5, averaging at 2.08 dead marines, average 1 precision shot overall. So thats already whittling down marine squads to half strength doing 5.44 wounds, perfect for being overwatched and whittled further at long range, think this is viable? Sniper drones wont die with their stealth field generators, and FW will always have possibility to die.
Each turn this setup will provide a target for the opponent, as attrition starts to set in, and provided they dont get crushed in first 2 turns they should make points back. As well as this it will be pinning ork blobs and guard blobs if you can precision the commissars face
Controversial?
Might work but that's quite a few points spent on immobile units who only put out a couple of shots each turn. You could get the same number of kills as that first unit of drones from a single XV8 team leader with a Targeting Array, Multi tracker, Plasma Rifle and Fusion Blaster within rapid fire range without needing a markerlight hit with the bonus that the XV8 is slightly cheaper, more mobile and negates a terminators armour save.
Rail Rifles don't have the Sniper rule and so don't grant the model using them the Precision Shot rule. In compensation we usually wound on better than a 4+ and only get worse shooting at models with T7 and greater and our AP doesn't rely on getting a specific roll (from Rending or to hit with Eldar rangers) to be worthwhile against MEQs, though this limits our effectiveness against TEQs. So unless that commissar is standing at the front of the unit you won't be taking him out from rail rifle shots.
On devilfishes, I read the Sea Turtle tactic during lunch today and it sounds amazing. I'm defiantly trying that out next game.
What Special Issue weapon got better in 6th?
The Cyclic and the Airburst both are geared for infantry killing. The Cyclic is weaker but has better Armor piercing, and a chance te become AP1.
The Airburst is our only barrage weapon, so cover saves are figured out from the hole not from the direction of the firer, and the only Blast Template we can get on anything smaller than a Hammerhead.
I'm starting to lean on the Airburst being better.
Airburst is great for clearing out units with good cover saves (so Stealth Teams, Eldar Rangers/Pathfinders in cover, Space Marine Scouts with camo cloaks in ruins etc.) without having to use a CC unit like kroot or target it with a lot more firepower, which reduces your damage output against other threats.
Captain Avatar wrote:
Second, to answer your question about the Rail Rifles.
Either do it on a 3rd Pathfinder team(Keep it small) or leave the Hammerhead home and bring the Stealth/sniper drones. The Sniper drones lined out on the board edge with the drones slightly in front of the spotter are much more survivable than in the past.
The reason why I ask is that I have a pirahna that's doing jack-all except rush in like a madman and quickly get blown up. Sure, it's soaking up fire but that's currently 80+ points for a decoy that gets blown up shortly after it comes out of reserves. It has yet to earn its points back so I'm wondering if I can improve that area. Rail Rifles would provide me with much more opportunity for recouping value, but they're so damn expensive. A decent team with rifles is much more than a lone kited out pirahna, I just feel they would be more survivable.
On tactics with rail rifes, could I fire on a target with the rifles + markerlight and, given that they have to take a pinning test from the rifles, use a markerlight to help them fail it? That would be ridiculous to slow down light and medium armored infantry squads. (leave the TEQ to the specalized weaponry)
Piranhas can still interdict other vehicles more effectively than anything else. You can stop a land raider for a turn by parking the piranha 1" in front of it. He can't destroy it by ramming (that's only a str5 hit) so he has to spend a turn driving around it, or else sit in place for a movement phase and then shoot it down in the shooting phase--unless you get lucky and it hangs around for a second turn.
Also a non-obvious use for all vehicles, but piranhas would be especially good at this since they move up to 30" a turn, is to block your own line of sight. If there's a 2+ save character at the front of the unit you want to shoot soaking up all your firepower (think Draigo or the Iron Fist guy), zoom the piranha up and block him off and jockey your own guys around so that none of your firepower units can see the uber-character. Since your guys can't see him, they can't hit him, and all their shots at that unit will go onto the squaddies instead.
Orkaswampa wrote:This scenario, 2 Sniper Teams and a squad of 8 FW (squad number derived from prev posts).
Markerlight the tactical squad with the FW, and open fire. 16 Shots, 1.7 Wounds. Then boost the first squad of Sniper Drones to BS4 against that squad of marines, 1.66 dead marines, using their ML to make next squad BS5, averaging at 2.08 dead marines, average 1 precision shot overall. So thats already whittling down marine squads to half strength doing 5.44 wounds, perfect for being overwatched and whittled further at long range, think this is viable? Sniper drones wont die with their stealth field generators, and FW will always have possibility to die.
Each turn this setup will provide a target for the opponent, as attrition starts to set in, and provided they dont get crushed in first 2 turns they should make points back. As well as this it will be pinning ork blobs and guard blobs if you can precision the commissars face
Controversial?
Did markerlights change with this edition and no longer need to hit via bs2-3? Or are you just assuming that every markerlight will be a hit despite the odds?
What, you mean a Tac Squad w/ Lascannon, Flamer & Razorback? Combat Squad the Lascannon into cover with some Broardsides, the Flamer onto an Objective, drive around going 'pew pew' with the Razorback. Topped off with a TDA Captain w/ TH/SS Nators in a LR?
Orkaswampa wrote:This scenario, 2 Sniper Teams and a squad of 8 FW (squad number derived from prev posts).
Markerlight the tactical squad with the FW, and open fire. 16 Shots, 1.7 Wounds. Then boost the first squad of Sniper Drones to BS4 against that squad of marines, 1.66 dead marines, using their ML to make next squad BS5, averaging at 2.08 dead marines, average 1 precision shot overall. So thats already whittling down marine squads to half strength doing 5.44 wounds, perfect for being overwatched and whittled further at long range, think this is viable? Sniper drones wont die with their stealth field generators, and FW will always have possibility to die.
Each turn this setup will provide a target for the opponent, as attrition starts to set in, and provided they dont get crushed in first 2 turns they should make points back. As well as this it will be pinning ork blobs and guard blobs if you can precision the commissars face
Controversial?
Did markerlights change with this edition and no longer need to hit via bs2-3? Or are you just assuming that every markerlight will be a hit despite the odds?
Well the Tau Spotter in a Sniper Drone squad is BS4 as he comes equipped with a Targeting Array. So the Sniper Drones squads both have a 66% chance to put a markerlight hit on and the Fire Warrior team has a 50% chance. So on average you'll probably be getting both of those Drone squads firing at BS4.
Orkaswampa wrote:This scenario, 2 Sniper Teams and a squad of 8 FW (squad number derived from prev posts).
Markerlight the tactical squad with the FW, and open fire. 16 Shots, 1.7 Wounds. Then boost the first squad of Sniper Drones to BS4 against that squad of marines, 1.66 dead marines, using their ML to make next squad BS5, averaging at 2.08 dead marines, average 1 precision shot overall. So thats already whittling down marine squads to half strength doing 5.44 wounds, perfect for being overwatched and whittled further at long range, think this is viable? Sniper drones wont die with their stealth field generators, and FW will always have possibility to die.
Each turn this setup will provide a target for the opponent, as attrition starts to set in, and provided they dont get crushed in first 2 turns they should make points back. As well as this it will be pinning ork blobs and guard blobs if you can precision the commissars face
Controversial?
Did markerlights change with this edition and no longer need to hit via bs2-3? Or are you just assuming that every markerlight will be a hit despite the odds?
Well the Tau Spotter in a Sniper Drone squad is BS4 as he comes equipped with a Targeting Array.
So the Sniper Drones squads both have a 66% chance to put a markerlight hit on and the Fire Warrior team has a 50% chance. So on average you'll probably be getting both of those Drone squads firing at BS4.
1/2 x 5/6 x 5/6 = 0.347... You have roughly a 1/3 chance of this chain of events happening. Even if it only works half way through the chain, it might be worth a try in 6e. In 5th edition? NEVER!! Giving up two needed heavy support slots away from broadsides to sniper drones would be incredibly bad. In 6e, with its two force org charts in 2k pts and inherent 6 heavies, it might be worth a try even if the mathhammer doesn't back up the rather optimistic example given.
This scenario, 2 Sniper Teams and a squad of 8 FW (squad number derived from prev posts).
Markerlight the tactical squad with the FW, and open fire. 16 Shots, 1.7 Wounds. Then boost the first squad of Sniper Drones to BS4 against that squad of marines, 1.66 dead marines, using their ML to make next squad BS5, averaging at 2.08 dead marines, average 1 precision shot overall. So thats already whittling down marine squads to half strength doing 5.44 wounds, perfect for being overwatched and whittled further at long range, think this is viable? Sniper drones wont die with their stealth field generators, and FW will always have possibility to die.
Each turn this setup will provide a target for the opponent, as attrition starts to set in, and provided they dont get crushed in first 2 turns they should make points back. As well as this it will be pinning ork blobs and guard blobs if you can precision the commissars face
Controversial?
Did markerlights change with this edition and no longer need to hit via bs2-3? Or are you just assuming that every markerlight will be a hit despite the odds?
Well the Tau Spotter in a Sniper Drone squad is BS4 as he comes equipped with a Targeting Array.
So the Sniper Drones squads both have a 66% chance to put a markerlight hit on and the Fire Warrior team has a 50% chance. So on average you'll probably be getting both of those Drone squads firing at BS4.
1/2 x 5/6 x 5/6 = 0.347... You have roughly a 1/3 chance of this chain of events happening. Even if it only works half way through the chain, it might be worth a try in 6e. In 5th edition? NEVER!! Giving up two needed heavy support slots away from broadsides to sniper drones would be incredibly bad. In 6e, with its two force org charts in 2k pts and inherent 6 heavies, it might be worth a try even if the mathhammer doesn't back up the rather optimistic example given.
Your maths is a bit off there as Markerlights don't benefit from Markerlights (so the Spotter wouldn't get +1 BS from the previous Markerlight).
So it ends up as (1/2)*(2/3)*(2/3)=0.222...
So the ideal situation will happen roughly once every 5 turns, which isn't that great.
True... I had completely forgotten about that as I've only fielded my two teams twice total as I preferred a Hammerhead or another Broadside team to them in almost every case. With two force orgs, though, the statement still stands that you now have enough slots to field was is generally considered an inferior unit.
A Town Called Malus wrote:[
Your maths is a bit off there as Markerlights don't benefit from Markerlights (so the Spotter wouldn't get +1 BS from the previous Markerlight).
So it ends up as (1/2)*(2/3)*(2/3)=0.222...
So the ideal situation will happen roughly once every 5 turns, which isn't that great.
Uggh... they get even worse than my flawed mathhammer would indicate. Still, it's worth a shot or two before consigned them to the unused pile again for another edition (or until a new codex comes out).
After another read through the rules, it seems that you can not force your opponent to multi charge by interweaving your units.
It should also be noted that the minimum 1" distance has been removed when charging. From reading, it is not just for the unit that they are assauling but can now come as close to any other unit so long as they don't touch bases.
So, FoF/D-fish drone screens and screening units in general took a bit of a hit.
@IHateNids-Am adding your post to the OP tactics form. Though honestly, I believe that SM players should be buying Tau models rather than the other way around
IHateNids wrote:@focusedfire: Can I have a link please?
I've been looking and actually cant find it -_-
I think focused meant that he would put it in the original post. You might try looking towards the bottom, there is tactics advice in a section titled on the board.
@IHateNids: What I meant was that I'm going to be taking SM allies to take forward objectives and be aggressive whilst my tau took a seat and shot at w/e needed shooting
Nah, I'm actually taking Tau as an allied detachment for my Necrons to sit back and shoot at longer average range, while my shorter range stuff gets in range.
That SM thing above is what I gathered from my usual FLGS opponents
What about running around with all your drone controllers taking 1 shield and one marker. so ever suit and FW squad would have this. correct me if im wrong but you could use the shield drones to soak up alot of fire in the front with the markerlight drone in the back moving and shooting its networked light. give us a little more oomf in our firepower if we can make those effective.
Kroot have been buffed in this edition I feel like because of the new longer charging distance and the fact that kroot have infiltrate makes them able to get into close combat turn 1. If you roll anything higher than a 7 to charge then you can get in their face with two attacks base and plus one on the charge. And plus a couple kroot hounds, kroot can be deadly.
Unfortunatley the RB says you can't assault after you infiltrate, scout, or outflank in all the special rules, as well as no assaulting off of reserve. Infiltrating is still a very good idea for kroot, but no first turn assault.
I've considered IG as well. They have an impressive point value and strength from the small allied FOC that we have.
I'm not that familiar with the IG dex tho, so I can't be much of help beyond a simple "commisar and giant troop blob" to snake the backfield objectives while you push forward.
Intermingle the command squads in with the massive squad of 50 (you can join squads), and have the 13 flamers at the front, this gives them a fighting chance if anything comes close for any means as well. Power Blob and a S8 AP3 Large Blast for flattening Purifier Squads into the dirt.
)
Just make sure that you have a leadership buff to that unit. Shadowsun might be worth while in this situation.)
, It will be up to you guys to come up with 
If you guys come up with something good, I will add it in to this section.
Though honestly, I believe that