I personally have a detachment of Elysian Gue'vesa
Captain Thanstadt[75pts]
Plas/Demo Grenadiers w/ PF[200pts]
Valkyrie[130pts]
Allies: 205pts
Expensive, but carapace and demolitions have never let me down yet in 6th edition.
Frankly, any form of template is bad for guard, especially a flamer one, just open your box and get ready to put models in at that point. With the setup for allies i showed earlier however, not only are there anti-marine template goodness in the form of AV14 Leman Russ, but you have a 50 strong blob of cannon fodder with fire to put out anything near the objective it is parked on. You're also looking at around 30 wounds against a marine squad from 150 lasgun shots (FRFSRF), which is on average 10 failed saves, so they NEARLY make up points cost assuming none die and the dice god allows averages to take precedence.
For the HQ on an allied guard detachment, it should probably be a Lord Commisar, that way you can set him in the middle and give the detachment a solid Ld 10 aura, or a Primaris Psyker to give us some psychic ability.
Okay so from the above i have derived, keeping in the officer of the fleet to screw flyer lists more:
Command Squad /w Officer of the Fleet - 80
This is the cheapest HQ available and comes with 5 free meatshields for your commander.
Platoon Command Squad /w Nothing - 30
Infantry Squad - 50
Infantry Squad - 50
Infantry Squad - 50
This gives you a 35 man tarpit for 180 points, and providing a large screen for FW etc.
Ratlings - 30 (+10 points per model, up to 7 additional)
As pointed out by focusedfire these are quite good, i played against a squad of 3 the other day, and their 3+ cover save isn't fun, especially the small model means getting LoS to them is a challenge anyway from a flank (They were in ruins). Precision shots are beast now also so!
That leaves you at 290 points, you have 44 Models to sacrifice. If you really want to up the blobiness, add 50 conscripts in for 200 points and give them chenkov and send in the next wave, but i dont favor this because the second they get one model fleeing off the board, or assaulted (sweeped to hell) you lose a large point sink :(
HOWEVER
If running aegis defense line, ditch the company command squad, and take a lord commissar and then join him onto a larger ratling squad which would be holed up in the defense line, or just leave him on his own in the defense line. Point is you have a BS5 Quad Gun, and if you really want you can stick him on the squad of 30 guardsmen to give them LD10 with his uber aura, and castle an objective with body count.
Edit: Adding a HWS with autocannons wouldnt hurt either. (75 points)
Also adding Marbo is fun, seeing as he is the bane of any terminator squad that isnt in assault.
Ok, I know that you guys are discussing IG right now, but I had an evil idea for a new Tau Deathstar.
You take 1 Shas'el w/ Fusion,Plas, Shiels Gen, Iridium Armour, Stm Inject, Shield Drones, hwmt
Then add Either a Jetseer "or" A Phoenix Lord(Thinking Karandas to give the unit infiltrate or to Fuegan fr the 2+ ew with fnp.)
Finally join both to Shadowsun if running Tau in the lead. Join both to a Jetaurch or Jetseer squadron if running Eldar as the primary detachment.
The object here is to use the LoS wound alocation shenannigans and the fact that the unit can split up once it is where it needs to be.
I'm leaning toward the Shas'el+Shadowsun+Karandas build. This allows for you to infiltrate these heavy hitters with a 2-4+ coversave into effective range and has a cc monster that will keep the unit around til the next turn where you will probably split them up.
8x 2+ Armour Saves
1x FNP 4x 4+ Inv Saves
10 Plasma Shots
3 Railgun Shots
2 Fusion Shots
Hit and Run on Squad
Night Vision on Squad
532
Still not sure if the hit and run works but would be nice if it did, otherwise you get 10pts to play with ;D Should probably add 2 more shield drones in on the other shas'el also.
But yeah, this kills what it shoots. Just detach the el's and shadowsun in movement phase, shoot diff targets, and move back in to the squad in the assault phase, tho shadowsun might not work very well here due to short range weaponry, but definitely nice LD10 bubble
i thought a squad only counted as being together when they start together in the movement phase. so you wouldnt be able to hop in and out like that it would have to be all or nothing. though i dont doubt the ridiculousness of this build lol
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh so im a huge fan of stealth suits now. my last game they survived 4 rounds when they were basically the only thing my opponent could shoot at. they were meant to be a throw away unit so i just took 6 with targeting arrays. killed like 15 necron warriors and soaked up a ridiculous amount of firepower.....2 died due to dangerous terrain jumping though.....oh well lol totally worth the points i spent on em
Ovion wrote:Units without infiltrate cannot deploy with units that have infiltrate.
At best, you can have them join together turn 1+ after deployment.
Augh, you are right.
By the book, Karandas gives the Infiltrate rule due to the wording but, at the very end of the Eldar Faq, it limits the power to units of his aspect only.
Oh well, Still think that Fuegan or now maybe Baharoth would work.
(Baharoth's entry says power weapon, so if you dig up an old Banshee axe he'll have an AP 2 cc weapon. Also, if you deepstrike the uber unit, then you will get to use the grenade pack.)
The best bet though will probably be a Jetseer or Jetaurch joined to Shaserra and the Shas'el. This gives the unit average toughness 4 and the really good coversave.
@Everyone else- Remember, if you are trying to do this, that Shadowsun is not an IC until her drones get ganked. This means that at the start of the game, you have to join the ICs to her rather than vise-versa.
So is anyone planning on using Kamikaze Ethereals? I've been thinking about using that tactic (placing the ethereal as far up front and solo and then trying to charge turn one) for the "free" preferred enemy upgrade. I was planning on deepstriking my crisis suits (dangerous terrain isn't so dangerous anymore and neither is a mishap) and my firewarriors are almost always mech'ed up in devilfish. The only guys that would have to take the morale test would be the broadsides who would be accompanied by LD10 HQs (two of them due to the extra one afforded by allies). Ideas?
warboss wrote:So is anyone planning on using Kamikaze Ethereals? I've been thinking about using that tactic (placing the ethereal as far up front and solo and then trying to charge turn one) for the "free" preferred enemy upgrade. I was planning on deepstriking my crisis suits (dangerous terrain isn't so dangerous anymore and neither is a mishap) and my firewarriors are almost always mech'ed up in devilfish. The only guys that would have to take the morale test would be the broadsides who would be accompanied by LD10 HQs (two of them due to the extra one afforded by allies). Ideas?
What's the point of that then?
Being only units that TAKE the morale test gain Prefered Enemy, the only things that'd get it in that instance are your Tau HQ and Broadsides (which are already twin-linked anyway, and will only get re-rolls to wound against troops when their main target is tanks...)
Now, taking an Ethereal and Shadowsun and keeping everything deployed inside her LD10 bubble would work, but you have to ask yourself, is it worth the 50pts to have a 1/6 chance a unit will run off the board, for re-rolling 1's to hit and to wound?
Even with the potential extra, boosted firewarriors you can take.
warboss wrote:So is anyone planning on using Kamikaze Ethereals? I've been thinking about using that tactic (placing the ethereal as far up front and solo and then trying to charge turn one) for the "free" preferred enemy upgrade. I was planning on deepstriking my crisis suits (dangerous terrain isn't so dangerous anymore and neither is a mishap) and my firewarriors are almost always mech'ed up in devilfish. The only guys that would have to take the morale test would be the broadsides who would be accompanied by LD10 HQs (two of them due to the extra one afforded by allies). Ideas?
What's the point of that then?
Being only units that TAKE the morale test gain Prefered Enemy, the only things that'd get it in that instance are your Tau HQ and Broadsides (which are already twin-linked anyway, and will only get re-rolls to wound against troops when their main target is tanks...)
Now, taking an Ethereal and Shadowsun and keeping everything deployed inside her LD10 bubble would work, but you have to ask yourself, is it worth the 50pts to have a 1/6 chance a unit will run off the board, for re-rolling 1's to hit and to wound?
Even with the potential extra, boosted firewarriors you can take.
Hrmm... didn't catch that restriction. The benefit is indeed linked to actually taking the test as opposed to an army wide benefit. I haven't used an ethereal since the first year or two of 5th edition and was apparently remembering the rule through some rose colored glasses.
OK, I've been crunching the numbers and with some very good tips from focusedfire, I've got my first Tau foot-list.
Focused wrote, that if I didn't feel like D-fish were worth taking, yet still wanted marker lights, then there was a way.
First, he pointed out that a Pathfinder team of 4 pf + Shas'ui +Devilfish gives you 5 mostly static marker light shots for about 175-195-ish points.
Then he pointed out that when built right, a stealth team gives 4 mobile markerlight hits for 215-235 points but is much more durable.
The only real problem is sacrificing the elite crisis slots for the 2 following stealth teams:
1 Shas'ui Team leader and 2 shas'ui + 4 Marker drones and 2 Gun drones(You position them in a 2gd+2md in front-3stealths in middle and 2md in back for best survivability)
Focused then wrote something that helped me to understand how to make it work. He said,"Shas'vre Bodyguard, just because they can take more wargear, doesn't mean that you have to.". The point here is, yes, they cost 10 pts more per model than standard Shas'ui suits but, aside from that, there is nothing that makes me spend any more than the extra 10 pts/per suit.
I took his advice and after fiddling around with several lists found that, at the 1850-2000 point level, I could run:
2 of the above Stealth teams
2 hq's with a body guard each and a regular crisis team with tl mp.
(I run the commanders as jack of all trades 3 weapon with mt and the body guards with 2 weapons and TA. Of course the command teams get shield drones.)
Then two 8 man fire warrior teams
two kroot kindred of 10+5hounds to infiltrate with your Stealth teams
and two 2 man xv88 teams with plas, multi-tracks and 2 sheild drones each.
This build may not be quite as points efficient as lists that take pathfinders but, IMO it has merit. I like the thought of having the kroot there to infitrate and back up the pathfinders.
Sounds nice and controversial, however i think you should ditch a kroot squad and take another FW team, as one battle cannon turn one will see you with 1 troops choice left out of range of lasgun/plasma/laser deathstorm as kroot will be the biggest threat to the guardsmen
Nice catch on the stealthsuit markerlights also, NEVER looked at it that way
So I played a game today and found an easy way to get Linebreaker without risking anything important. Gun Drones.
turn 5-6, charge up any remaining devilfishes and pop off the Gun drones. I realized this too late in the game I played, and after implementing it, ended up one inch short from the actual deployment after running/jetpack. But on anything but the Scouring, totally worth it.
Arrange as Shas'Vre, then Shield Drones, then other Drones, then suits.
EDIT: I assume this is legal as Shas'Vres can take Special Issue wargear IIRC, please tell me if I am incorrect
Unfortunately, it is illegal.
This is due to the Iridium armour being special issue and that such wargear is only allowed where specifically stated under the units entry.
BTW, if you don't mind a minor reduction in protection, you can save 10 points on that stealth unit by using the gun drones instead of shield drones. This is because the only time the gun drones will not get a 4+ save is when hit by Heavy flamer equivalent weapons(AP 4 that ignores cover)
But I though you could take Special Issue on any Shas'Vre. What would be the point in being able to upgrade to Shas'Vre if you got no access to Special Issue warger?
IHateNids wrote:But I though you could take Special Issue on any Shas'Vre. What would be the point in being able to upgrade to Shas'Vre if you got no access to Special Issue warger?
Still, it means i need to re-think my strategy(s)
You gain access to the extra markerlight option by upgraging a shas'vre.
As a matter of fact, we missed that earlier. Drop 1 marker drone and add the sha'vre with marker light and save 15 points to get the 4 markerlights in the unit.
This makes them points competitive to the pathfinders when bringing 4-5 markerlights to the table per squad.
At 1 shas'vre marker light and 3 marker drones with 2 more stealth suits, you are looking at 200 points.
230 for a 4th marker drone.
or 220 if just adding 2 gun drones to act as ablative wounds.
To me, this seems like a very good reason for upgrading to a shas'vre
OnTopic: I am thinking of using the 6th ed buffs to finally make my stealth themed scout army.
It would be something like Shadowsun, 1 stealth marker team, 2 crisis missile teams, 3 fw teams, 1 kroot squad, 1 large piranha squadron(???), 2 Broadside teams of 2, 1 HS choice of 3 Sniper drone teams, 1 aegis defense line
I will work out the list on Army builder.
Side note, The more I think about it, the more that I realie that Shadowsun is actually good if she is used to man the Aegis gun. This allows her to use her great BS while still giving the leadersgip buff to the back field units.
Yes but only a small amount though. Then a massive wave of Eldar also these new Tau models are just the old models becoming finecast prehaps seeing new sculpts for prehaps the vespids but still unlikley wheras the Eldar has more releases and beveived more re-sculpts like with the case of the Avatar of Khain. Also completly new models (Xenarchs and others) as well as new cross kits (Warp Spiders/Everguard and others)
Tau Mako (Flyer) and Nautilus Defense Platform (Fortification) - I don't think they're old and becoming finecast Otherwise yes, bar the kroothawks everything is a finecast update basically.
Orkaswampa wrote:Tau Mako (Flyer) and Nautilus Defense Platform (Fortification) - I don't think they're old and becoming finecast Otherwise yes, bar the kroothawks everything is a finecast update basically.
And the Vespid kit which includes "Spinewings" which are a new introduction. That's gonna be another new plastic kit considering the current Vespid kit is already Finecast.
So the only thing left is Farsight. One out of five of the models/kits is a possible (because it is not impossible that they're releasing a new sculpt for Farsight) Finecast update.
It says in the link above something to do with farsight, he is on the release schedule, whether he's a new sculpt or just a finecast equiv we won't know, hopefully a new sculpt.
Captain Avatar wrote:OK, I've been crunching the numbers and with some very good tips from focusedfire, I've got my first Tau foot-list.
Focused wrote, that if I didn't feel like D-fish were worth taking, yet still wanted marker lights, then there was a way.
First, he pointed out that a Pathfinder team of 4 pf + Shas'ui +Devilfish gives you 5 mostly static marker light shots for about 175-195-ish points.
Then he pointed out that when built right, a stealth team gives 4 mobile markerlight hits for 215-235 points but is much more durable.
The only real problem is sacrificing the elite crisis slots for the 2 following stealth teams:
1 Shas'ui Team leader and 2 shas'ui + 4 Marker drones and 2 Gun drones(You position them in a 2gd+2md in front-3stealths in middle and 2md in back for best survivability)
Some questions/comments on your point values:
A squad of 5 pathfinders(why Shas'ui? unless I am missing some relevant wargear) + Devilfish (barebones, no point in upgrading if its a necessity) clocks in at 140 points.
An equivalent squad of Stealth Suits of 3 (a team leader to get a marker light on him, each with HW-DC and a marker drone, team lead taking 2) clocks in at 225 points. You could add more drones, but that would only increase the discrepancy.
Are the stealth squads really mobile? Because I can't think of a time I wouldn't want them in cover
I do like stealth suits, they just seem to be a large point value commitment for markerlights. I would be interested to know if anybody has tried the method out yet, if it helps keep markerlights for the whole game, or if it was less relevant.
Its basically much tougher markerlights. A stealth suit squads with markerlights in a crater is like terminators, with similar amount of markerlights to a pathfinder squad. However a pathfinder squad in a crater is food for the enemy, they are too easy to kill. However using a devilfish as a roadblock can protect them to a degree, but not really as well as the SFG on the suits, as if devilfish goes, you're squad of 5 PF is in trouble. I believe the shas'ui is there to challenge things, like abaddon running at them on his own, he can only kill 1 pathfinder due to challenge ;D
That may sound cool and all, but if anything gets into assault, I want my squad to pretend they are PDF and be killed to a man. let's me shoot the assaulters next turn.
Collection of tau only stuff from the list for anyone interested, new items in italics:
284054630110202 Kroot Kroothawks RE c01 Len_B 02 cc 256145512010301 Tau Empire Nautilus Defence Platform PL a20 Len_B 03 cc 256146011840307 Tau Empire MakoPL a18 Len_A 03 cc 256145730740301 Commander Farsight RE b07 Len_A 03 cc 256146211440307 Tau Empire Vespid Stingwings / Vespid SpinewingsPL a14 Len_A 03 cc
Automatically Appended Next Post: Did anyone notice aun shi on the GWhq page? He wasn't there before.
thehungryone wrote:
Some questions/comments on your point values:
A squad of 5 pathfinders(why Shas'ui? unless I am missing some relevant wargear) + Devilfish (barebones, no point in upgrading if its a necessity) clocks in at 140 points.
An equivalent squad of Stealth Suits of 3 (a team leader to get a marker light on him, each with HW-DC and a marker drone, team lead taking 2) clocks in at 225 points. You could add more drones, but that would only increase the discrepancy.
Are the stealth squads really mobile? Because I can't think of a time I wouldn't want them in cover
I do like stealth suits, they just seem to be a large point value commitment for markerlights. I would be interested to know if anybody has tried the method out yet, if it helps keep markerlights for the whole game, or if it was less relevant.
1)Why Shas'ui?
Experienced Tau players quickly learn that the 10 points for leadership 8 is worth it. Remember that your Pathfinders are going to be out where they can be shot. Your opponent will view them as high priority targets and at 5 models strong, it only takes 2 unsaved wounds in a single shooting phase to force a leadership test.
2-3 games where you roll 8's for leadership is usually enough convince most Tau players to take the shas'ui.
As to wargear on the Shas'ui? In 5th it was the Bonding Knife but that wargear is mostly unneeded now. In 6th ed, you take a gundrone or two because they give the unit a decent chance of surviving a sweeping advance by units whose highest initiative value is 5 or lower.
2)Pathfinder points cost?
Running base pathfinder and D-fish is, imo, a recipe for auto-fail. Standard builds take a Shas'ui and at least 20pts of wargear on the D-fish. Those 30-55 points usually means the difference between 1 turn of ineffective use and 3 or more turns of somewhat effectiveness. I have already discussed why the Shas-ui, so now I will explain the D-fish.
Yes, you can take a dumbfish at 80 points but in doing so, you are running a vehicle that doesn't realy get into the game except for being an extra target and being a line of sight blocker.
Now, if you spend an extra 20-ish points you can have a fairly survivable and mobile vehicle by buying the sensor spines & multitracker. Going the full 45 pt smartfish route, allows the D-fish to contribute some effective strength 5 shooting to the game through the addition of SMS and targeting array.
Basically, you spend an extra 45-55 points to make the initial 140 point investment a viable unit. This has been the problem with the pathfinders all along. 140 points for a unit that doesn't shoot/do damage is too many points spent for what time and codex creep has turned into an, at best, mediocre force multiplier.
Now, for close to the 195 point smart-fish ldshp 8 pathfinders you can take a unit that always has 4+ or better cover except against "ignores cover weapons".
3) As to math being off, you might want to re-check what I typed. I pointed out that at "one less marker light" you could have a much more survivable, "and mobile", unit.
That unit would cost 195 pts by having the Team Leader take a markerlight anf the unit taking 3 marker drones, 210 pts if you want to just run 4 marker drones and +20 more points to any of the previous if you want 2 ablative gun drone wounds.
These points totals would go up if you want to run a Shas'ui and hard wired systems for some reason.
The point that was being made was that for about the same points, you can sacrifice one markerlight to gain both more manuverability and survivabilty with close to the same number of strength 5 shots.
As to your question of whether they are really more mobile?
Undoubtedly yes. The Stealthsuits can infiltrate and fire the markers on the move and JSM to make use of los blocking terrain.
Yes, you would optimally want them in cover but if given the choice of staying in cover to shoot and letting them assaulted turn 2 or moving out and shooting through turn 5..............I'll take the latter.
All I can say is try it before you nock it. Against pathfinders, many opponents have gotten good about keeping units out of their fire lanes or at shooting them off of the board early in the game. The Stealthsuit marker teams allow for better positioning, Jump Shoot Move tactics with los blocking cover, and have both better armour and cover saves.
As I said before, The only area that really affects the competiveness of such a build is that you have to take body guards for your commanders in order to get enough crisis suits on the table, though this can be mitigated by being frugal in the wargear purchases/resisting the temptation to drone-up and load up on a bunch of the wargear options.
Iur_tae_mont wrote:That may sound cool and all, but if anything gets into assault, I want my squad to pretend they are PDF and be killed to a man. let's me shoot the assaulters next turn.
And there are times where you will pray for them to be a road block. But, that is not the point of having the Shas'ui.
The real point of the Pathfinder Shas'ui is leadership 8 against morale checks caused by shooting. Lets say that you have 3 different days, close ogether, where your Pathfinders walk off first turn not once but in two or more games because you rolled an 8. I had a couple of those days and that was enough to convince me that the ldshp 8 for units outside of transports the whole game was worth the 10 extra points.
I've not been sold on the devilfish upgrades for this edition, but that's because I use the Devilfish specifically for Mobile LOS blocking Terrain that the enemy has to put holes into. And It's worked so far. That 140 points I had in Devilfish upgrades plus the 140 points I had in kroot bought me 28 Shas'la Fire Warriors. That Shas'ui could become another body with another gun and standard-issue combat armor. Ld 7 may not be great( Especially since we are like the only army that takes LD tests), but 4+ armor is pretty sweet. It may not be Power Armor, but not much is AP 4.
Iur_tae_mont wrote:I've not been sold on the devilfish upgrades for this edition, but that's because I use the Devilfish specifically for Mobile LOS blocking Terrain that the enemy has to put holes into. And It's worked so far. That 140 points I had in Devilfish upgrades plus the 140 points I had in kroot bought me 28 Shas'la Fire Warriors. That Shas'ui could become another body with another gun and standard-issue combat armor. Ld 7 may not be great( Especially since we are like the only army that takes LD tests), but 4+ armor is pretty sweet. It may not be Power Armor, but not much is AP 4.
I agree, the 4+ armour on the fire warriors is decent.
Leadership 7, on the other hand,is pathetic. My experience has lead me to the opinion that sacrificing a fire warrior or three to help keep the unit from folding like a cheap card table is totally worth it. YMMV however.
Question? How were you spending 140 points on Devilfish upgrades? Most I ever spent was 120-ish on 3 and I quickly dropped down to just the 2 D-fish because they just were not able to put out the strength nor the volume of fire needed. I spent those extra points on Crisis suits and a couple more fire warriors.
I will say that the sensor spines have been very good. Though I am now trying to build an effective zero vehicle list. The reason for wanting the ero vehicle list is primarily due to the sheer number of necron players in the local area.
I have no problem with GK, DE, BA, Nids or Orks with my old all-comers list but the 'Crons are just being a problem for me at this time.
Captain Avatar wrote:Though I am now trying to build an effective zero vehicle list. The reason for wanting the ero vehicle list is primarily due to the sheer number of necron players in the local area.
I have no problem with GK, DE, BA, Nids or Orks with my old all-comers list but the 'Crons are just being a problem for me at this time.
I'm trying to slowly phase out vehicles as well. No matter what I try or do, my local meta has enough weapons that go "Haha! Lookit what I did to your tank!" that my vehicles have almost zero chance to make their points back. Sure, I expect devilfish to blow up but my hammerheads always seem to miss their shots (even with markerlight support they'll fail to pen) and fail their jink saves on the returning fire.
My stealth teams, however, have been earning their keep. They've been blowing up vehicles like nobody's business. I had one game last weekend where my fusion stealth team jumped in and blew up a predator, land raider and las rhino only taking casualties to the land raider exploding out to 6 inches when I was in melta range. The other all burst team hit another las rhino from behind and soaked up two turns of fire (<3 mobile cover)
I'm slowly migrating to more of a suit oriented list. My goals right now are 2 stealth, 1 deathrain and two HQ with bodyguard (1 fireknife and 1 helios) with two broadside teams as support and opening turn can opening (IDGKs? don't mind if I do!) With vehicle armor too easy to crack it just becomes way too much of a liability.
If your hammerheads survive the second enemy turn, they'll have a chance to recoup their points investment but they rarely last that long in my games. Maybe hiding a skyray will provide an interesting approach? Not exactly sure yet but I'm not ruling that out. At worst they provide a transport poping ability followed by mobile cover when they've expended their missiles.
Captain Avatar wrote:
Question? How were you spending 140 points on Devilfish upgrades? Most I ever spent was 120-ish on 3 and I quickly dropped down to just the 2 D-fish because they just were not able to put out the strength nor the volume of fire needed. I spent those extra points on Crisis suits and a couple more fire warriors.
.
On two devilfish, I had Targetting arrays, Multi trackers, blacksun fliters, flechettes, disruption pods, Seeker Missiles and SMS. They didn't put out too many shots, but they did ok throughout 5th. At least good enough to warrant 70 additional points per fish.
YotsubaSnake, i'm seeing the opposite in my local meta. Everyone is dropping lascannons and the like in favor of Plasma weapons, and everyone is dropping transports. I think I was the only person with a Non flyer transport that wasn't a Land Raider. The broadsides and Deathrains are on vehicle hunting duty, the Hammerhead is on large blast droppin' duty.
Captain Avatar wrote:Though I am now trying to build an effective zero vehicle list. The reason for wanting the ero vehicle list is primarily due to the sheer number of necron players in the local area.
I have no problem with GK, DE, BA, Nids or Orks with my old all-comers list but the 'Crons are just being a problem for me at this time.
I'm trying to slowly phase out vehicles as well. No matter what I try or do, my local meta has enough weapons that go "Haha! Lookit what I did to your tank!" that my vehicles have almost zero chance to make their points back. Sure, I expect devilfish to blow up but my hammerheads always seem to miss their shots (even with markerlight support they'll fail to pen) and fail their jink saves on the returning fire.
My stealth teams, however, have been earning their keep. They've been blowing up vehicles like nobody's business. I had one game last weekend where my fusion stealth team jumped in and blew up a predator, land raider and las rhino only taking casualties to the land raider exploding out to 6 inches when I was in melta range. The other all burst team hit another las rhino from behind and soaked up two turns of fire (<3 mobile cover)
I'm slowly migrating to more of a suit oriented list. My goals right now are 2 stealth, 1 deathrain and two HQ with bodyguard (1 fireknife and 1 helios) with two broadside teams as support and opening turn can opening (IDGKs? don't mind if I do!) With vehicle armor too easy to crack it just becomes way too much of a liability.
If your hammerheads survive the second enemy turn, they'll have a chance to recoup their points investment but they rarely last that long in my games. Maybe hiding a skyray will provide an interesting approach? Not exactly sure yet but I'm not ruling that out. At worst they provide a transport poping ability followed by mobile cover when they've expended their missiles.
Your list sounds almost identicle to mine. Any tactical movement tricks that you have picked up?
Also, "Have you played Necrons with this list? If so, "How did it go?".
Your list sounds almost identicle to mine. Any tactical movement tricks that you have picked up?
Also, "Have you played Necrons with this list? If so, "How did it go?".
Well, I'm still trying to cope with the other half of the spectrum, which is the absurd numbers of High AP weapons that I'm going against. I just got back from a game where I watched someone tear through my commander and a team of crisis fireknives with AP2 weapons (was running from terminators that deep struck nearby so I got flushed out). This is why I'm leaning more on stealth suits. I only lost a handful of those from two full squads taking ridiculous firepower instead of a couple errant shots eating my crisis suits alive.
As for tactics? I'm currently trying to figure out the best method for approach. Early game I'm supposed to slow down and chew up anything advancing from their table edge to open a hole in their line, preferably on one flank. Then I like to push up into that hole with my mobile suits. This helps when my stealth suits arrive because they get right up into the mix of it and chew up units camping behind cover, opening the hole. It helps you run from assault units and allows you to sweep in objectives. I haven't been very good about implementing it though. It's been quite disorganized but that's mostly because I only have three teams that have the jet pack mobility (2 stealth, 1 crisis team w/ HQ) and it relies heavily on that. This is primarily why I'm trying to migrate over to a vehicle-less list.
Also, no I havn't played necrons yet and I'm not looking forward to doing it until I get a helios team up and running. I have had the misfortune of going against draigowing. It was quite silly, again needs better AP weapons. I'm finding it's what you need in general if you want a good TAC list.
I'm seeing 6th Ed Tau as a highly mobile force. It's not a Gun Line force anymore, its now a skirmishing force.
Battlesuits? Move and shoot (except for Airburst, which is laaame).
Stealth suits? Move and shoot .
Broadsides? They can move and shoot too when you give them Relentless.
Fire Warriors? Move and shoot. Either skirmish away from incoming enemy troops, or rush forward and unload with rapid fire - with pinning from attached gun drones.
Vehicles? Move and shoot. Stick multitrackers on them and they can move 12" and still fire two weapons at full BS.
Gun drones? Move and shoot. Use them to harass and pin enemy troops at the back of the field.
Unfortunately, there's a few units that don't fit this philosophy.
Pathfinders need to be stationary to effectively use their markerlights or rail rifles, and if there's much cover on the board, that can be problematic.
Sniper drones have the same problem.
Kroot... well. They can't move and shoot as well as Fire Warriors can, and while they're decent enough on the charge, they suffer from having no assault weapons or grenades.
So what I'm thinking here is... rely on Stealth Teams with drones for highly mobile and kinda tough markerlight support, while they move in on enemy vehicles and infantry blobs.
Take 2-3 squads of suits (using extra commanders if you need to) for some purpose built sorts of targets - long ranged fire support, close in vehicle burning, etc.
Use skirmish lines of Fire Warriors to flank and harass advancing infantry and light vehicles, before pulling them back to take Objectives in turn 4 or 5.
Also, worth mentioning the Sky Ray.
It's expensive for questionable benefit, and as vulnerable as any other vehicle, but there is that one slight benefit from the fact that its two markerlights are right at the top of its turret, so hide it behind some cover and those two can still fire at full effect because the LoS is traced from the weapon. And they're networked markerlights too, so it can actually fire off its own missiles. Fit it with Smart Missiles and you can ignore the cover you're hiding behind to hit the enemy on the other side, and they probably wont even get to fire back, because the hull of the vehicle is entirely hidden, and the rules say that stuff like wings, tails, banners and weapons don't count for LoS. This last point is admittedly a bit cheesy - will probably come down to a discussion between you and your opponent.
Pathfinders aren't completely immobile, since now they can snap shot. I take two squads just for this reason. One will reposition an fire snap shot, the other will stay put. The team that moves alternates each turn. Broadsides I like to think of as Fortifications that we've been able to take since 4th. They do not move. Under any circumstance.
Iur_tae_mont wrote: Broadsides I like to think of as Fortifications that we've been able to take since 4th. They do not move. Under any circumstance.
Being able to reposition them 6" each turn without sacrificing their firepower in any way is handy for when the opponent is using vehicles that move around themselves.
Iur_tae_mont wrote: Broadsides I like to think of as Fortifications that we've been able to take since 4th. They do not move. Under any circumstance.
I've been reevaluating broadsides as of late and I'm going to challenge the old theory of "sit and shoot" broadsides. I'm primarily in a MEQ environment, so I'm thinking it's worth upgrading to the TL Plasma Rifles and maneuvering them much more freely. You're dealing AP2 shots so you're still ignoring armor. Also, if you happen to end up within 12" of some poor unit, they'll open up hell on them. With a proper screen, I can see an aggressive broadside move being incredibly effective. Opinions?
Quick distraction: I love the new quotes so much. :3
On topic: The enemy vehicles move, but it's like hiding an MC. Unless it's behind a wall, odds are you'll be able to see enough to shoot it. And we can turn that 4+ or +5 into a 7+ with Markerlights. In 5th, Because of Dawn of War Deployment, I took the ASS. At least then I could shoot after I tripped onto the board. But now while we can only fire snap shots on the move, they can still move and shoot. I prefer to put them on a hill with some shield drones and turn a tank into swiss with a Targetting Array. Almost BS5 Accuracy on a s10 ap1 gun that can still shoot from the back of your deployment to the back of their deployment( in Hammer and Anvil) is too much a temptation for me to pass.
And where does it say the Airburst cannot be fired when the battlesuit moves?
And where does it say the Airburst cannot be fired when the battlesuit moves?
And then I went and looked it up again and realised that if you ignore whats in the (faq'd) codex and just look in the back of the rulebook, its an assualt weapon sooo... no problems.
And where does it say the Airburst cannot be fired when the battlesuit moves?
And then I went and looked it up again and realised that if you ignore whats in the (faq'd) codex and just look in the back of the rulebook, its an assualt weapon sooo... no problems.
Micky wrote: Yeah, I was confused by the FAQ turning it into a Barrage weapon and the Relentless rule not saying anything about Barrage weapons x3
Phew, I was about to rant about the disrespect of the Airburst
In regards to Broadsides, I personally have stopped taking them.
Yes they are awesome and relatively cheap but in the end, they are susceptible to close combat and are less mobile than the Hammerhead.
Not to mention the loss of the beautiful blast template.
I'd much rather have my Hammerheads with Tetra support soak up firepower while blasting both armor and infantry which in turn provides a much needed distraction for my deepstriking Crisis Suits.
In regards to Stealth Suits, with the new ruleset, they could be very good. Has anyone found a good way to run them?
I was speculating on a Kroot spikestrip in front of some sooped-up Stealth Suits infiltrating combo so they can grab a 2+ cover save.
Broadsides have the same mobility and speed as all other infantry if you give them the ASS as they move with Slow and Purposeful, meaning full BS railguns on the move due to relentless, so really they are just as mobile as anything else in your army, all crisis suits can do is move 6" over and up.
Current good ways to run stealth suits from what ive seen is maxed out gun drones on the squad, or a markerlight squad, i.e 3 suits, 3 marker drones, 1 team leader markerlight.
Orkaswampa wrote: Broadsides have the same mobility and speed as all other infantry if you give them the ASS as they move with Slow and Purposeful, meaning full BS railguns on the move due to relentless, so really they are just as mobile as anything else in your army, all crisis suits can do is move 6" over and up.
Very true But I will praise the Hammerhead nevertheless
Current good ways to run stealth suits from what ive seen is maxed out gun drones on the squad, or a markerlight squad, i.e 3 suits, 3 marker drones, 1 team leader markerlight.
My friend plays them that way (Gun Drones maxed out) but I have never seen it actually played out.
However, do the gun drones benefit from Stealth and Shrouded?
IHateNids wrote: Im primarily a necron player, so i can tell you what is wrong with tactics you post up, and help you improve upon them if you want?
I would love It if you could share your wisdom on this matter as I still cant beat necrons lol
(My current tactic is to score as many secondary objectives as possible in the first few turns then move up and hold ground, but I always lose out to attrition as they march forwarder over all the objectives)
Yeah, go for the objective as late as possible. Most necron armies that i field/ have played against. are too slow to reclaim a lost objective late in the game. Unless your opponant runs Wraithwing.
By all means go for secondarey objectives, but dont overextend. An isolated unit is a dead unit (no brainer)
IHateNids wrote: Yeah, go for the objective as late as possible. Most necron armies that i field/ have played against. are too slow to reclaim a lost objective late in the game. Unless your opponant runs Wraithwing.
By all means go for secondarey objectives, but dont overextend. An isolated unit is a dead unit (no brainer)
thanks for the advice. i tend to grab first blood and kill the warlord prtiy fast with 72" rail volleys on turn one so no need to worry about isolated units
he runs alot of ccb/a barge and ghost arks and deathmarks with the redeepstriking cryptec, especally at below 1000 points
( i would of tied my last game if it wasnt for the fact that it was big guns never tire and him killing all my broadsides )
My friend plays them that way (Gun Drones maxed out) but I have never seen it actually played out.
However, do the gun drones benefit from Stealth and Shrouded?
The Stealth and Shrouded rules are like the Night Vision rule - only one model in a squad needs to have them for the whole squad to benefit from it.
Gun drones plus stealth suits would make pretty good anti-infantry units because you have the awesome cover saves (and 3+ armour saves while you're at it), a lot of 18" shooting at good strength, pinning from the drones, and you can jet away in the assault phase because the drones count as jetpack infantry as well.
Yes, they do benefit; you only need one model in the unit to confer the ability to the whole lot under 6th. A lot of the USRs work that way now, it makes characters with them great for joining other units; hence the large discussion (& desperately needed FAQ) for vectored retro- thrusters.
SirNamTaey wrote: In regards to Broadsides, I personally have stopped taking them.
Yes they are awesome and relatively cheap but in the end, they are susceptible to close combat and are less mobile than the Hammerhead.
Not to mention the loss of the beautiful blast template.
I'd much rather have my Hammerheads with Tetra support soak up firepower while blasting both armor and infantry which in turn provides a much needed distraction for my deepstriking Crisis Suits.
Different local metagames garner different results. I have yet to have a hammerhead actually do any damage where my broadsides tend to wreck stuff hard. I'm experimenting with TL Plasma Rifles so they can add on some increased MEQ/TEQ kill capability.... again, for my local metagame.
In regards to Stealth Suits, with the new ruleset, they could be very good. Has anyone found a good way to run them?
I was speculating on a Kroot spikestrip in front of some sooped-up Stealth Suits infiltrating combo so they can grab a 2+ cover save.
I personally run two teams of six stealth suits, one team with two fusion, other all bust. All with targeting arrays. The idea is to quickly get behind enemy lines and eat up their important long-range units. Burst cannons can kill most vehicles when hitting in the rear and the sheer number of forced saves firing at MEQ will tear a unit up at 18".
If 1 model has stealth and/or shrouded then that is conferred to the whole unit.
The hammerhead is nice, but not for single shot railgunning, more or less the template. I think tau need each shot to hit as they dont have much else to counter a land raider, so each railgun shot is precious if you know what i mean, which is why i prefer broadsides for the anti-tank side of things.
Different local metagames garner different results. I have yet to have a hammerhead actually do any damage where my broadsides tend to wreck stuff hard. I'm experimenting with TL Plasma Rifles so they can add on some increased MEQ/TEQ kill capability.... again, for my local metagame.
The interesting thing there is... do you give them Stabilization so that you can fire the railguns on the move, or do you give them Multitrackers so that they can snap-fire the rails as well as the plasmas?
I'm curious, If only one model needs to have the ability for it to be conferred to the rest of the unit does this apply for Multitrackers? Or is it only for USR's?
8x 2+ Armour Saves
1x FNP 4x 4+ Inv Saves
10 Plasma Shots
3 Railgun Shots
2 Fusion Shots
Hit and Run on Squad
Night Vision on Squad
532
That squad eats paladins, markerlights would just further its OPness. (Fusion Blasters are there for instant deathing space marines hq's and being another low ap weapon, in order to maximise terminator deathing).
With that many 2+ armour saves, you are going to survive by almost all odds. The only S=<8 AP=>2 templates come from things you can reliably pop turn one, assuming you go first.
IE, Medusas. IIRC front armour is 11, so its a case of glance or pen. AP1 is +2 so its a 4+ to destroy it. DDAs are S9 AP1 pie, but have the same range as you. So if they can shoot so can you. Also, chances are you have a board where everything is in range, so the IG 240" serve no purpose, they are still getting hit and exploded ~50% of the time.
Rotwik wrote: I'm curious, If only one model needs to have the ability for it to be conferred to the rest of the unit does this apply for Multitrackers? Or is it only for USR's?
I'd assume it's only USR's but i thought i'd ask
It depends on the USR - some of them specifically call out that only one member of the squad needs to have it. Have a look in your rulebook, and at the Tau FAQ to work it out.
re: Sticking a Commander with Adv.SS in a Plasma Broadside unit - one slight issue with the Slow and Purposeful rule is that you can't fire Overwatch, so bear that in mind if you're moving up into charge range.
...on the other hand, it does say you can Assault after firing heavy weapons, so if you're feeling lucky...
Yes, however it says in the tau rulebook that each model must be equipped to use it, so regardless of whether it transfers, the item giving the rule adds the need for others to be equipped - you can't just ignore something, thats cheating!
Multi-trackers dont confer any rule, it does what it says and it says per model.
Guard vehicle armour is easy:
Chimera Chassis - F12 S10 R10
Leman Russ Chassis - F14 S13/12 R10
Vendetta Chassis - F12 S12 R10
Armoured Sentinel is F11 S10 R10 i think
Norm Sentinel is 10s all round
Different local metagames garner different results. I have yet to have a hammerhead actually do any damage where my broadsides tend to wreck stuff hard. I'm experimenting with TL Plasma Rifles so they can add on some increased MEQ/TEQ kill capability.... again, for my local metagame.
The interesting thing there is... do you give them Stabilization so that you can fire the railguns on the move, or do you give them Multitrackers so that they can snap-fire the rails as well as the plasmas?
I have not gotten a chance to actually field these yet, but I made the decision after a few games of watching my boradsides get chewed up by MEQ from close range and I became tired of Smart Missiles doing nothing and railguns only taking out one dude at a time. The doubletap AP2 at close range (when they deepstrike or plan to charge) just seems so much better. If you have a team of 3 broadsides, then you have 6 shots at 12". Normal shooting has it rounding out aproximately 4-5 armor ignoring wounds and overwatch sees at least 1-2. Way more than SMS can hope to do with AP5.
I'm going to run targeting arrays in my first outing with them this weekend. I will see how well a team of 3 can handle the new role of being a dakkastar of AP1/AP2 weapons and report back. I just want to make sure they hit and hit hard!
Orkaswampa wrote: Yes, however it says in the tau rulebook that each model must be equipped to use it, so regardless of whether it transfers, the item giving the rule adds the need for others to be equipped - you can't just ignore something, thats cheating!
That is something I'd love to say to my opponent.
He/she would never play me again but it'd be worth it.
I am also interested in the effectiveness of TL Plasma Rifles on Broadsides, do keep us informed.
Can you put ASS on one Broadside in a team and have it affect the unit (second Broadside)? In my Big Guns Never Tire scenerio tomorrow it would be nice to kit one of my two Broadsides with this so they could move towards objectives or move a bit if needed and still fire at full BS.
I'm loving the effects of the VRT suit with my stealth team when the get assaulted by angry marines!
Ministry wrote: Can you put ASS on one Broadside in a team and have it affect the unit (second Broadside)? In my Big Guns Never Tire scenerio tomorrow it would be nice to kit one of my two Broadsides with this so they could move towards objectives or move a bit if needed and still fire at full BS.
I'm loving the effects of the VRT suit with my stealth team when the get assaulted by angry marines!
No. If one XV88 takes ASS then the others in the team have to take it too, it's in the wargear entry.
Ministry wrote: Can you put ASS on one Broadside in a team and have it affect the unit (second Broadside)? In my Big Guns Never Tire scenerio tomorrow it would be nice to kit one of my two Broadsides with this so they could move towards objectives or move a bit if needed and still fire at full BS.
I'm loving the effects of the VRT suit with my stealth team when the get assaulted by angry marines!
Rotwik wrote: I'm curious, If only one model needs to have the ability for it to be conferred to the rest of the unit does this apply for Multitrackers? Or is it only for USR's?
I'd assume it's only USR's but i thought i'd ask
It depends on the USR - some of them specifically call out that only one member of the squad needs to have it. Have a look in your rulebook, and at the Tau FAQ to work it out.
re: Sticking a Commander with Adv.SS in a Plasma Broadside unit - one slight issue with the Slow and Purposeful rule is that you can't fire Overwatch, so bear that in mind if you're moving up into charge range.
...on the other hand, it does say you can Assault after firing heavy weapons, so if you're feeling lucky...
Fun quirk with the Adv.SS I just noticed.
It only gives SnP if you chose it do in your movement phase, and it only lasts for the duration of the turn, so if I read it correctly-it might not prevent you from overwatch, as the turn is already over.
EDIT: re-read the rulebook section about it to be sure (page 9, "GAME TURNS AND PLAYER TURNS", turns out I am right! it is "player turn" because it is not otherwise stated.
So, in fact, the Adv.SS NEVER stops you from overwatching, and is therefor much better then we thought on broadside squads! (though still expensive and steals the hardpoint.)
We invented a Braodside DakkaStar. With the usual of a HWDC and HWMT on the Team leader, you have a unit with 5x 2+, 2x 4++, 3x TL Railguns, 3x TL Plasma Rifles.
8x 2+ Armour Saves
1x FNP 4x 4+ Inv Saves
10 Plasma Shots
3 Railgun Shots
2 Fusion Shots
Hit and Run on Squad
Night Vision on Squad
532
You can take a Cyclic or AFB or Missile pods on HQ in place of fusion blaster if you wish.
It kills 7.8 tactical marines on average, or 7.8 terminators, it can also instant death 5 paladins. The tough hq stands in front of the squad. 2 More shield drones can also be added to the weaker HQ.
DEY CAN SEE IN DA DARK, and fit in cover. The biggest threat to the squad is demolisher cannons, so stay stationary and triple railgun them turn 1, otherwise the only thing that wont get a save against a battle tank is the weaker hq, the others have a 2+ so should be fine.
And as I attempted to say, due to a (probably unintended) quirk of the Adv.SS it only effects the player's own turn, so you can put on on the second 'el instead of the MT and give him a HWMT, making the entire unit able to move, shoot and change freely while still being able to overwatch as normal.
I say its quite a big improvement, turning that deathstar mobile means its a serious threat, and you cant just hide or walk away.
I find the deathstar builds interesting, but they don't mesh with my playstyle. I finally got to hold a game with TL PR broadsides and they were SPECTACULAR.
Sure, if you have all these other things to make a death star it is pretty awesome but just in general, at minimum a pair with TL PR and 2x Shield Drones stands up to so much punishment! I took two squads of two in a 2k game and only lost one to an outflank (which promptly I promptly killed next turn, mind you). PR 88's are highly recommended for any heavy MEQ environment.
Also, I know I've harped on it on and on again in this thread but if you haven't jumped on the stealth suit bandwagon yet, I highly recommend it. The 4+ mobile cover is ridiculous! I find the best use is to infiltrate them into some sort of cover and let them wreak havoc on the front lines while the rest of your force catches up.
YotsubaSnake wrote: Also, I know I've harped on it on and on again in this thread but if you haven't jumped on the stealth suit bandwagon yet, I highly recommend it. The 4+ mobile cover is ridiculous! I find the best use is to infiltrate them into some sort of cover and let them wreak havoc on the front lines while the rest of your force catches up.
I've tried out stealth suits in a couple games so far and have had plenty of success jumping out and hitting isolated units in my opponent's deployment zone, in a team of 4 with one fusion blaster. Have you found a "best" squad size? I was going to try out two teams of three with one fusion blaster and targeting array in this list next week.
I, personally, have been running two full squads, one with two fusion and one all burst. The reason being is that my squads are getting a reputation of being annoying as hell to deal with and they get fire focused on them hard. I've actually had to step up and give them drones for extra wound absorption. They take the brunt of the firepower while my crisis suits jump up with the heavier weaponry to take down key targets.
The beauty of the stealth suits really is the amount of fire the enemy has to put into it. I had 6 suits with ta. Survive for 3 full rounds of an entire necron army shooting at them. Particle whipped and all they held strong. Passed 2 leadership tests. Absolute badasses. My broadsides got scared of a deathray and cost me the match though. I was dumb founded.
I agree. on 5th the were meh, but at 6th they are freaking badass...
I only have 3 from the battleforce that i run with 3 gun drones attached (one to each), but i am seriously considering to turn them into a full-time 6 man squad.
With the actual Stealth suit minis so cheap right now, I'm totally going to pick up another three boxes - might even get a mix of the small finecast ones and the big plastic ones to be more interesting
I've got 12 stealth suits that have never all seen battle. Maybe now they'll get a chance to shine. Where might a unit of 4 bc 2 FB suits best be infiltrated? Forward recon or behind enemy lines? Also stealth marker teams - finally worth their points?
Stealth marker team is now worth the points, as it is a hard to remove marker source.
As for using attack stealth, I say you can deepstrike the fusion squads, of infiltrate a gun squad to a good JSJ into terrain area, to make them take a heavy toll on your enemy at first two turns, and slow them down as they are forced to handle it.
YotsubaSnake wrote: I find the deathstar builds interesting, but they don't mesh with my playstyle. I finally got to hold a game with TL PR broadsides and they were SPECTACULAR.
Sure, if you have all these other things to make a death star it is pretty awesome but just in general, at minimum a pair with TL PR and 2x Shield Drones stands up to so much punishment! I took two squads of two in a 2k game and only lost one to an outflank (which promptly I promptly killed next turn, mind you). PR 88's are highly recommended for any heavy MEQ environment.
Also, I know I've harped on it on and on again in this thread but if you haven't jumped on the stealth suit bandwagon yet, I highly recommend it. The 4+ mobile cover is ridiculous! I find the best use is to infiltrate them into some sort of cover and let them wreak havoc on the front lines while the rest of your force catches up.
This is the reason I'm saving plasma rifles up! Do you use the ASS or the Multitracker?
Changed my mind about getting stealth suits this month. Screw that - I just got offered a spot in a mass forge world order, so asked for a pair of FW broadsides with plasma
BoomWolf wrote: As I might be able to fish myself a bit of forgeworld soon-what do you guys say about tetra in 6th edition?
I loved them on paper in 5th - never ordered any and felt too guilty to proxy piranhas (I hate counts- as). I think in 6th with a free Jink (no d pods required) and overall drop to cover a 4 shot marker light on a fast skimmer is A++. Between that and pathfinders, I would choose a pair of tetras every time.
So I went through this thread, lots of cool ideas. I had originally been collecting Tau simply to paint. with 6th ed I was thinking of jumping in with a fresh start. Looking at the costs I am on the fence about Pathfinders + devilfish OR a stealth suit team. My army would be 1000 to 1100 points. Would a Tau foot list (no transports) be viable? will the firewarriors become street pizza if they try to hoof it to objectives?
Stick a 6 man stealth suit squad with 12 gun drones in the middle of the board up in a ruin and your FW shouldnt be on your opponents priority list. Non vehicle is viable, pathfinders die too easily so consider a tetra or using a stealth team with marker drones if you really need them, you will be needing 2 broadsides or more however to cope with other armies, as well as a crisis team to jump around.
tetrisphreak wrote:I've got 12 stealth suits that have never all seen battle. Maybe now they'll get a chance to shine. Where might a unit of 4 bc 2 FB suits best be infiltrated? Forward recon or behind enemy lines? Also stealth marker teams - finally worth their points?
Infiltration has to be 18" away from an enemy model in LOS... so if your enemy is running weak transports like rhinos, place them EXACTLY 18" from that transport with your fusion guns in front. You jump in 6 inches, find yourself in range and attempt to blow it out of the water. If that doesn't work, your burst cannons can still glance up to AV11 to death. I've found this tactic of infitrating to be FAR more effective than deep striking because you place your stealth suits on the front lines, firing off the bat first turn. Then they retreat back with their jet move and hold a solid forward line halfway across the board, allowing the rest of your army to catch up relatively safely. And if you were to go second, it might be better go for outflanking. You can be much more dynamic than if you were with deep striking and have no chance for mishap!
I've also been toying with a marker drone on my stealth teams in the larger lists. If it hits, it can allow my stealth team to hit at BS5 (because I bring TAs on all of them) or take away annoying cover saves from things like Jink.
OnboardG1 wrote:This is the reason I'm saving plasma rifles up! Do you use the ASS or the Multitracker?
Neither right now, I'm actually rocking a Targeting Array to ensure a hit. The idea is that if they're outside of 30" or you really need the railgun, you can stay put and hit them with that. Otherwise, you can move around and still hit most infantry just as well with your pulse rifles. They get close to the unit? That doubletap is vicious! Don't be afraid to move your broadsides if you can still move and shoot. Odds are you'll wound on 2s against infantry (not many T5s) so it effectively has no difference except the potential for railguns to ID.
Ministry wrote: Can you put ASS on one Broadside in a team and have it affect the unit (second Broadside)? In my Big Guns Never Tire scenerio tomorrow it would be nice to kit one of my two Broadsides with this so they could move towards objectives or move a bit if needed and still fire at full BS.
I'm loving the effects of the VRT suit with my stealth team when the get assaulted by angry marines!
How do you equip your stealth team escort suit?
'El with VRT joins them. With T3 the stealth suits are too vulnerable to an angry SM charge and need to be able to gracefully exist the fray.
Orkaswampa wrote: Stick a 6 man stealth suit squad with 12 gun drones in the middle of the board up in a ruin and your FW shouldnt be on your opponents priority list. Non vehicle is viable, pathfinders die too easily so consider a tetra or using a stealth team with marker drones if you really need them, you will be needing 2 broadsides or more however to cope with other armies, as well as a crisis team to jump around.
in a 1000 to 1100 point list the points just are not there for 2 broadsides. I have 1 broadside and 6 crisis suits in 3 two man teams, along with 24 fire warriors ( 4x6man teams) the last chunk of points was either going to be a 5 man stealth team (all have TA) with 2 drones OR a pathfinder squad and devilfish they would leave for firewarriors to mount up in. I like the idea of a stealth team hopping around annoying the enemy and drawing fire while bigger gun crisis suits either come in from the opposite side or exploit holes the stealth team makes.
That all sounds good, but imo just take maxed out gun drone stealth team, its such a pain in the ass to kill, remember you are jump infantry and should jump up ruins then down, so you should never get charged unless you're boxed in, thrust move ftw! If you do get charged, make sure its gun drones that die, and you have 1 hidden so you can flee at I4 and not get sweeped as easily, but avoid assault.
so if the stealth suit unit plus bubble of drones is a harassing unit, should I add a leader with fusion blaster? it would be nice to have a strength 8 weapon, but it reduces my volume of fire and effective range by 6 inches. its an expensive unit already (5 suits +5 drones) and I would hope to get a few turns out of it.
tetrisphreak wrote:I've got 12 stealth suits that have never all seen battle. Maybe now they'll get a chance to shine. Where might a unit of 4 bc 2 FB suits best be infiltrated? Forward recon or behind enemy lines? Also stealth marker teams - finally worth their points?
Infiltration has to be 18" away from an enemy model in LOS... so if your enemy is running weak transports like rhinos, place them EXACTLY 18" from that transport with your fusion guns in front. You jump in 6 inches, find yourself in range and attempt to blow it out of the water.
Infiltrators have to be *more than* 18" away. That means after your 6" move, you're still more than 12" away, unless your tape measure doesn't follow the same rules of geometry as everybody else's. :p
You could always deploy them out of sight in which case they can be deployed 12" away.
With a large unit with lots of drones that will probably be tricky, though.
On the plus side it's safer. If you get first turn they just jump out and blast as usual.
If your opponent gets first turn he can't see you unless he moves, which will likely put him in the open ready to be vaporised by the rest of your forces.
Imo castle a large ruin with 6 stealth suits and 12 gun drones, stick an objective there and watch them come running while you camp your one and wait till later to ninja that one!
the 6-man 12-bot team seems fine on paper, but if you actually try to place them on a board and try to check it's aim you will see that the massive footprint, combined with low range makes very, very hard to actually use all that firepower without being ludicrously close with your front liners.
I would not pack more then 12 models total (4-8 or 6-6), optimal sizes I consider to be 6 (pure 6 or 3-3) and 9 (3-6) for gunner stealth suits, these sizes provide large volume of fire compare to cost, and are not big enough to bog you down.
BoomWolf wrote: As I might be able to fish myself a bit of forgeworld soon-what do you guys say about tetra in 6th edition?
I loved them on paper in 5th - never ordered any and felt too guilty to proxy piranhas (I hate counts- as). I think in 6th with a free Jink (no d pods required) and overall drop to cover a 4 shot marker light on a fast skimmer is A++. Between that and pathfinders, I would choose a pair of tetras every time.
We use FW where I play and I run 3 solo tetras every game (I have 4 since they come 2 to a pack). They are worth far more than any other fast attack option. A really solid bonus is the model is very tiny, able to 'park inside a devilfish if they wanted' tiny. I joke before each game if my opponent isn't watching my setup too carefully to 'spot the tetra!' If they weren't paying attention they have no idea where they are until I point them out. They can be dwarfed by a dynamically posed crisis suit.
BS4 markerlight is a solid plus as well. 3 of them allow me to harass 3 targets a turn which usually die shortly thereafter.
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Mecha_buddha wrote: so if the stealth suit unit plus bubble of drones is a harassing unit, should I add a leader with fusion blaster? it would be nice to have a strength 8 weapon, but it reduces my volume of fire and effective range by 6 inches. its an expensive unit already (5 suits +5 drones) and I would hope to get a few turns out of it.
I dislike having a squad with differing types of guns, especially since they cant split fire. Either your wasting burst canons or overkilling with fusion. Your elite slots are the best part of your army and they have to be doing something that warrants this distinction.
Does anyone know of any alternative models that could be used for crisis or stealth suits?
I considered using stealth suits as crisis and then using the XV15 suits as regular stealth suits, however does any other companies make similar models at at a lower price?
Mecha_buddha wrote: so if the stealth suit unit plus bubble of drones is a harassing unit, should I add a leader with fusion blaster? it would be nice to have a strength 8 weapon, but it reduces my volume of fire and effective range by 6 inches. its an expensive unit already (5 suits +5 drones) and I would hope to get a few turns out of it.
I dislike having a squad with differing types of guns, especially since they cant split fire. Either your wasting burst canons or overkilling with fusion. Your elite slots are the best part of your army and they have to be doing something that warrants this distinction.
Even if it is a waste sometimes, it is always nice to have that threat line in front of your force. After all, what player would want to purposely drive their precious tanks into melta-range? It can unnerve people.
DaemonJellybaby wrote: Does anyone know of any alternative models that could be used for crisis or stealth suits?
I considered using stealth suits as crisis and then using the XV15 suits as regular stealth suits, however does any other companies make similar models at at a lower price?
I would not use the larger stealth suits to count as crisis suits. The reasoning is that the XV-25 suits are significantly smaller than the crisis suits as well as a different base size. That would be considered modeling for advantage.
If done properly (using larger base, using flying sticks to raise them up, using proper weapons) converted XV25s can be very effectively used as counts-as XV8s, and look awesome.
I've seen some well done 'stealth' Battlesuit / Broadside conversions.
I was thinking standing them on a bit of slate to raise the hight, or use a flying stand, and mounting them on 40mm bases.
Half of my XV25s are on 40mm bases already, the model looks so much bigger then They would get proper weapons too, shave off the little lug and the weapon will fit under the arm.
It's not always about reduced cost. Hell, I'd like to make an XV25 counts-as army. As well as a Kroot army (though that'll likely be counts-as DE) An all-drone army (Drones with Pulse Rifles for FW, pairs of drones for XV8s, 2-4 drones for XV88's, drone controlled 'harbringers' ( devilfish ), drone controlled hammerheads, etc. ) A slight addition where I use pairs of Firewarriors on larger bases in weapon teams to make an all-fire-warrior army. This is to go with my 84 Fire Warrior list I'm making.
But if you do it right AND can make an epic army on the cheap, all the better.
Furthermore - not everyone has the money for full-retail.
BoomWolf wrote: As I might be able to fish myself a bit of forgeworld soon-what do you guys say about tetra in 6th edition?
I did the cheapest (and most awful looking) conversion to play Tetras: I didn't glue the wings on the Piranhas.
Although I feel some shame, those Tetras (with target-array) now provide my entire army with markerlight support. They are a pretty awesome addition.
BoomWolf wrote: As I might be able to fish myself a bit of forgeworld soon-what do you guys say about tetra in 6th edition?
I did the cheapest (and most awful looking) conversion to play Tetras: I didn't glue the wings on the Piranhas.
Although I feel some shame, those Tetras (with target-array) now provide my entire army with markerlight support. They are a pretty awesome addition.
They are much more efficient than anything you can bring for markerlight support. They really ramp the army up a notch.
Rules for tetras are in the Imperial armour Taros campaign book arnt they? can anyone give a basic pros/cons vs pathfinders or stealth suit marker teams?
I like the look of the tetras, and they arnt insanely expensive. I assume its more points cost effective than 6 pathfinders and a devilfish?
not sure if the players at the LGS let forgeworld stuff on the table.
Mecha_buddha wrote: Rules for tetras are in the Imperial armour Taros campaign book arnt they? can anyone give a basic pros/cons vs pathfinders or stealth suit marker teams?
I like the look of the tetras, and they arnt insanely expensive. I assume its more points cost effective than 6 pathfinders and a devilfish?
not sure if the players at the LGS let forgeworld stuff on the table.
Earlier this year they received a new ruleset. They got silly good.
Sensor towers are also very solid investments for a pittance of points since they come with a positional relay.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To answer your question specifically the pros and cons are very lopsided now.
Tetras
-High intensity markerlights are heavy 4 and are on a fast vehicle. The threat range is roughly 4 feet to put accurate shots wherever you need.
-The model itself is half the size of a piranha and its flying stem is almost nonexistent as its a molded resin component that makes the tiny ship practically touch its flying base.
- Being Tau vehicles they can take targeting array for BS 4. My normal load out is to take 3 solo tetras each with just a targeting array, it already has disruption pod so not much else is needed. In larger games they can still take multi tracker and come in units of 4 if need be.
- It is a scout and also contains the same deep strike bonus of pathfinders.
- No transport tax needed to be paid, your dumping points straight into marker lights.
Pathfinders.
- Multiple models means one lucky shot wont shut down a firing unit... and thats all I can think of. A tetra is shorter in profile than a standing Firewarrior...
Mecha_buddha wrote: Rules for tetras are in the Imperial armour Taros campaign book arnt they? can anyone give a basic pros/cons vs pathfinders or stealth suit marker teams?
I like the look of the tetras, and they arnt insanely expensive. I assume its more points cost effective than 6 pathfinders and a devilfish?
not sure if the players at the LGS let forgeworld stuff on the table.
The IA:3 book probably costs more than some Tetras would, really. But thats the tax we pay.
Given that one box of XV25s costs the same as a single Crisis suit, and weapon bits are so cheap, it is a far more economical alternative than forking out for the original model.
The sensor towers look pretty beastly for 40pts The free reroll to hit looks particularly attractive, especially as it comes with a TL markerlight. TL BS4 Fire warriors anyone?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also the TL plasma cannon on the hammerhead? 4 TL ion cannon shots at 48"
Also, it is cheaper to buy tetras than to convert them from piranhas. £18 for one piranha, £33 for 2 Tetras
As mentioned above, tetra's are BOSS in the new FW rules, they sucked in taros but now kick ass. Sensor towers are also very good and not overly expensive for what they do, i see 12 FW and a sensor tower being good for defending the home objective
Do you think that the sensor towers would work as an anti-flier system? A couple twin-linked markerlights for seeker-missiles, and twin-link pulse-rifles and whatnot.
I think they would work for the Broadside DakkaStar. If the Broadsides + Shas'els have three railguns + 2 MPs, those hitting on BS3 (BS1 + 2 ML) can mathhammerwise down any flyer in the game right noe.
The sensor tower is probably best on a pathfinder / tetra squadron for ensuring something tough gets whats coming.
It would be pointless on the broadside deathstar as all of the broadsides weapons are twin linked and you cannot twin link something twin linked so :L The points cost of the tower is probably more than the cost of twin linked the hq suits anyway.
The seeker missile is fired at as a snap shot at a flyer therefore is BS1, as it is only assumed to fire at BS5, where in fact it is BS1 because of snap fire, so that wouldn't work.
It would however work nicely on marine and eldar battle brother allies, such as war walkers, devastators, etc.
As mentioned above it will work nicely on fireknifes if you prefer to play defensively whereas aggressively you probably wont be in range unless you make a gun drone "rope" back to within 6inches of it, which is being a douchebag but works.
No because snap fire is a rule and the codex cannot break rules still. Its like using the old rage in place of the new rage, where the new rage takes precedence because it outdates that of the codex. 4th ed codex shouldnt trump a 6thed rulebook!
In the new tau codex however there will be something that trumps snap fire, there has to be :L
Its not PURELY "codex beats rulebook" its how they two interact, and only on a DIRECT confrontation, the codex comes first (yes, even though out-dated.)
So a rule about markerlight increasing BS does NOT work on snap shots because the codex gives and increase, and the rulebook gives a set value, so BOTH apply, but the set value applies later, and as such the markerlight improvement is, while still technically happening, irrelevant in the end result.
On the missile question, the missile fires at BS 5 even while "snap shooting" because while the book sets it to one, the codex (FAQ actually in this case) sets it to 5, as both happen at the same time-the codex (FAQ) "wins", as both apply-but the codex (FAQ) applies stronger.
In fact, any reading into the FAQ reveals without any room for doubt that the missile will ALWAYS fire at BS5, and this cannot be changed even if you wanted to by your own methods.
FFS people, stop trying to squirm obvious rules (even when wierd) to fit your own desires. there is no room to interrupt it any different except by falling into "void means I am right" excuses ("it never says that in this SPECIFIC case its true, despite giving a near-identical one as example where it does!"
And don't claim I am saying this because I want it to be, I don't even run the damn things, ever. even with correct using of it they are not worth the points that could be sank into more guns across the board.
I answered about the markerlights. they have no effect on snap fire, because both the markerlight increase and the snap fire set value apply, but the order that you apply them at just makes the markerlight effect useless (although technically THERE, he is quickly re-written)
The missile part was a random rant about people trying to pry it so it would fit their need of tau having as little anti-air as possible.
Just had the last battle of my local GWs summer campaign. End result for the Tau forces of 4 wins and 2 draws, with the final battle (which was a draw) being settled by a warlord battle royale which the Tau won through superior firepower resulting in the Tau being the overall winners of the campaign, YAY!
The 2 draws were against Necrons, with the Necron players picking which scenario to use from the Battle Missions book giving them a pretty hefty advantage so I'm pretty happy about them.
Final Warlord duel was amusing with Tau commanders jumping away from the Necrons and just wearing them down with Plasma Rifle fire whilst the Necrons desperately tried to get into CC.
Stuff I took away from it, the Aegis defence line is great. It kept our forces alive in the first battle against the Necrons thanks to the 2+ cover when you go to ground. This allowed us to grab a draw from the jaws of defeat as our reserves arrived and got us enough kill points to tie the game, thanks to Hammerhead submunition rounds to weaken Warrior units, Deathrain suits to finish them off and our use of Broadsides with Plasma to wipe out whole units of Scarabs thanks to Instant Death.
Stealth Teams are damn hard to kill in cover. Had a full squad with 2 Fusion Blasters, 10 Gun Drones and 2 Marker Drones guarding the right flank in the final battle. Kept a unit of destroyers busy trying to kill them and absorbed a Particle Whip shot with the only casualties being 2 Gun Drones.
Managed to pull off a hilarious deployment with my Fire Warriors as our home Objective in the final battle was in the open. They were deployed in a ring around it with the Shas'ui standing behind the ring, closest to our board edge, each at maximum distance for coherency. Worked as they only managed to kill 2 Fire Warriors with a Large Blast and another two from Necron Warrior shooting. The four survivors held and later I managed to pass all seven armour saves I needed to make to keep 'em alive from the Necron Warriors trying to finish them off.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Just had the last battle of my local GWs summer campaign. End result for the Tau forces of 4 wins and 2 draws, with the final battle (which was a draw) being settled by a warlord battle royale which the Tau won through superior firepower resulting in the Tau being the overall winners of the campaign, YAY!
The 2 draws were against Necrons, with the Necron players picking which scenario to use from the Battle Missions book giving them a pretty hefty advantage so I'm pretty happy about them.
Final Warlord duel was amusing with Tau commanders jumping away from the Necrons and just wearing them down with Plasma Rifle fire whilst the Necrons desperately tried to get into CC.
Stuff I took away from it, the Aegis defence line is great. It kept our forces alive in the first battle against the Necrons thanks to the 2+ cover when you go to ground. This allowed us to grab a draw from the jaws of defeat as our reserves arrived and got us enough kill points to tie the game, thanks to Hammerhead submunition rounds to weaken Warrior units, Deathrain suits to finish them off and our use of Broadsides with Plasma to wipe out whole units of Scarabs thanks to Instant Death.
Stealth Teams are damn hard to kill in cover. Had a full squad with 2 Fusion Blasters, 10 Gun Drones and 2 Marker Drones guarding the right flank in the final battle. Kept a unit of destroyers busy trying to kill them and absorbed a Particle Whip shot with the only casualties being 2 Gun Drones.
Managed to pull off a hilarious deployment with my Fire Warriors as our home Objective in the final battle was in the open. They were deployed in a ring around it with the Shas'ui standing behind the ring, closest to our board edge, each at maximum distance for coherency. Worked as they only managed to kill 2 Fire Warriors with a Large Blast and another two from Necron Warrior shooting. The four survivors held and later I managed to pass all seven armour saves I needed to make to keep 'em alive from the Necron Warriors trying to finish them off.
I have vague notions of fielding an Etherial + Honor Blade with a squad of Honor Guard, decked out with EMP Grenades and Pulse Carbines, as a sort of tank-hunting shock troop.
...its probably a stupid idea, but it would be fun. =)
Micky wrote: Yeah, that's kinda what I figured too.
I have vague notions of fielding an Etherial + Honor Blade with a squad of Honor Guard, decked out with EMP Grenades and Pulse Carbines, as a sort of tank-hunting shock troop.
...its probably a stupid idea, but it would be fun. =)
I'd just ask why Pulse Carbines? A Pulse Rifle is superior in almost every situation now, except that rare time when you actually pin a unit.
If they made the Photon Grenade Launcher on the Carbine have some actual purpose (my choice would be increasing the range for Stealth granted by defensive above 8") then that might change, of course.
Micky wrote: Yeah, that's kinda what I figured too.
I have vague notions of fielding an Etherial + Honor Blade with a squad of Honor Guard, decked out with EMP Grenades and Pulse Carbines, as a sort of tank-hunting shock troop.
...its probably a stupid idea, but it would be fun. =)
I'd just ask why Pulse Carbines? A Pulse Rifle is superior in almost every situation now, except that rare time when you actually pin a unit.
If they made the Photon Grenade Launcher on the Carbine have some actual purpose (my choice would be increasing the range for Stealth granted by defensive above 8") then that might change, of course.
Etherial with Honor Blade, squad decked out with EMP grenades and assault carbines. So they can assault. Probably pretty effective against vehicles actually.
Like i said, probably a stupid idea, but also fun. =)
I use an Honor blade Ethereal as an objective marker and just have a squad of Fire Warriors "Guard" him.
Looks cool on the battlefield and I don't have to worry about the ethereal. To make it where everyone understands he is not an actual model, He is on a 40mm base.
Actually that would be a decent unit. Ethereal w/ HB, 12 FW Honour Guard w/ PRs, EMP grenades & Markerlight, 4 Shield Drones.
Buy the transport and put something else in it
If all goes well thats BS5 FW rapid-firing w/ S5, having 16 4+ & 4 4++ saves to take the return fire
Worst thing about ethereals is other people can take them for allies :( My friends this year are taking an ethereal in apocalypse just to make sure it dies and i have big big problems D:
Best use for ethereal is to kill it when your army is in a shadowsun LD10 bubble
Orkaswampa wrote: Worst thing about ethereals is other people can take them for allies :( My friends this year are taking an ethereal in apocalypse just to make sure it dies and i have big big problems D:
Best use for ethereal is to kill it when your army is in a shadowsun LD10 bubble
Only Tau units get Preferred Enemy when he dies. Only units who take the Leadership test when he dies get it and only Tau models with LOS to him take the Leadership test.
So when they start trying to re-roll those ones they just rolled with their Space Marines (or whatever army they're playing) you just burst into laughter and lay the rules down on them, letting them know they just wasted 50 points (admittedly not much in an Apoc game but every little helps) for a special rule which the majority of their army can't use
The point is, it'll make everyones Tau try to run away, so for 50pts, you suicide the ethereal into something, and watch as portions of the enemy start to fall back.
Hell, take 5 of them and do it repeatedly! (man that would suck...)
Ovion wrote: The point is, it'll make everyones Tau try to run away, so for 50pts, you suicide the ethereal into something, and watch as portions of the enemy start to fall back.
Hell, take 5 of them and do it repeatedly! (man that would suck...)
Nope, if an Ethereal dies then only firendly (i.e on his team) Tau run.
So unless your buddy is on your team and is trying to make sure that he loses by making half of his team run away then it won't be a problem.
"If a friendly ethereal is killed then every unit of tau on the tabletop" - Quote, Tau Codex
Each ethereal is friendly to someone,..
This qualifies for the most obtuse reading of a rule I've ever seen...
I have to agree. if you are not defining "friendly" as the side that paid the points for the ethereal, the person using this tactic is a prick. I would shake his hand and give him the win and not even set up.
This bugs me so much, people like that are the reason i quit playing 40k in 2nd ed, and makes me question if I should get back into it.
"If a friendly ethereal is killed then every unit of tau on the tabletop" - Quote, Tau Codex
Each ethereal is friendly to someone,..
This qualifies for the most obtuse reading of a rule I've ever seen...
I have to agree. if you are not defining "friendly" as the side that paid the points for the ethereal, the person using this tactic is a prick. I would shake his hand and give him the win and not even set up.
This bugs me so much, people like that are the reason i quit playing 40k in 2nd ed, and makes me question if I should get back into it.
Defining friendly makes no difference to the rule. If a friendly Ethereal dies all friendly and none friendly Tau take the test by RAW. It’s a stupid rule but it clearly says all Tau on the table top not just friendly ones. We ended up house ruling this as its stupid in Tau v Tau games.
I would like to know how people are taking Ethereals as allies as that seems impossible to me. You cannot take an Ethereal as an ally then get it killed as you do not have the HQ slots for an ally ethereal.
Defining friendly makes no difference to the rule. If a friendly Ethereal dies all friendly and none friendly Tau take the test by RAW. It’s a stupid rule but it clearly says all Tau on the table top not just friendly ones. We ended up house ruling this as its stupid in Tau v Tau games.
Well, if that's how you want to read it, it's not hard to argue against.
1) defining Friendly is important, because the rule only specifies that it takes effect when Friendly ethereals die.
2) I don't have an entry in my codex for "Friendly Ethereal".
See, actually, it's a rule that, by RAW, does absolutely nothing, ever.
I would like to know how people are taking Ethereals as allies as that seems impossible to me. You cannot take an Ethereal as an ally then get it killed as you do not have the HQ slots for an ally ethereal.
Defining friendly makes no difference to the rule. If a friendly Ethereal dies all friendly and none friendly Tau take the test by RAW. It’s a stupid rule but it clearly says all Tau on the table top not just friendly ones. We ended up house ruling this as its stupid in Tau v Tau games.
Well, if that's how you want to read it, it's not hard to argue against.
1) defining Friendly is important, because the rule only specifies that it takes effect when Friendly ethereals die.
2) I don't have an entry in my codex for "Friendly Ethereal".
See, actually, it's a rule that, by RAW, does absolutely nothing, ever.
I would like to know how people are taking Ethereals as allies as that seems impossible to me. You cannot take an Ethereal as an ally then get it killed as you do not have the HQ slots for an ally ethereal.
He did say apocalypse, where FOCs are irrelevant.
I missed the apocalypse refrence. Wasn’t friendly defined in the area that determine which wargear affects you or everyone on your side? So Friendly Ethereal’ are in the game. To quote the 5th edition rules
"In most occasions this is clear, as the rules use the words ‘friendly’ or ‘own’ to indicate your units, and ‘enemy’ for the opponent’s." So it only triggers when your friendly’ (own) Ethereal dies but once trigged it affects all Tau not just friendly Tau. I assume 6th still has friendly to mean own.
At 2000pts with 2 Primary HQ and 4 Primary Troops, you can take an Additional Allied Detachment.
So at 2000pts you can take an ethereal! (Though you've got to take roughly 200+pts of other models for it, though you can take some Broadsides and a Hammerhead... oh and of course they all might run when the ethereal dies too!)
Don't blame guys i don't want to use the tactic or killing my own ethereal to make the opponent flee, im just warning you all. Less "this prick" please.
Clarify - 6 FW and an ethereal is enough for the ally detachment, just thought id clear some confusion.
I was looking at the rules for the detachments, and i have another question. It lets you take another detachment, as opposed to expanding the first. So wouldn't you be forced to take the 1+ unit in each detachment, meaning that it is impossible to take an Etherial as an ally? It makes sense fluff-wise that the Tau wouldn't send an Etherial out unless it was their forces that were the majority.
Of course this has no bearing in an Apocalypse game, but still.
DakkaHammer wrote: I was looking at the rules for the detachments, and i have another question. It lets you take another detachment, as opposed to expanding the first. So wouldn't you be forced to take the 1+ unit in each detachment, meaning that it is impossible to take an Etherial as an ally? It makes sense fluff-wise that the Tau wouldn't send an Etherial out unless it was their forces that were the majority.
Of course this has no bearing in an Apocalypse game, but still.
That is my understanding of the rules, as well.
Back OT - has this thread yet discussed any of the FW suits in 6th edition? Primarily the XV-9 "Hazard" suit? I just ordered 3 and while they're equipped with phased ion guns, I'm going to try counting them as having pulse submunition rifles and see how they perform. 6 s5 large blasts that ignore cover from one unit seems like overkill, but at 350 points or so for the unit i think that's understandable. However the PiG's have rending, so that would be 24 s4 rending shots instead of the blasts.
DakkaHammer wrote: I was looking at the rules for the detachments, and i have another question. It lets you take another detachment, as opposed to expanding the first. So wouldn't you be forced to take the 1+ unit in each detachment, meaning that it is impossible to take an Etherial as an ally? It makes sense fluff-wise that the Tau wouldn't send an Etherial out unless it was their forces that were the majority.
Of course this has no bearing in an Apocalypse game, but still.
It does not work quite like that.
Each detachment is, while separate, a part of the same army.
As such you don't have to take a crisis commander with each detachment, just as you cannot have duplicate named characters that way and no twin special-issue items.
The limits are PER ARMY, not per detachment. two totally different things.
Back OT - has this thread yet discussed any of the FW suits in 6th edition? Primarily the XV-9 "Hazard" suit? I just ordered 3 and while they're equipped with phased ion guns, I'm going to try counting them as having pulse submunition rifles and see how they perform. 6 s5 large blasts that ignore cover from one unit seems like overkill, but at 350 points or so for the unit i think that's understandable. However the PiG's have rending, so that would be 24 s4 rending shots instead of the blasts.
Both seem good, but which is better?
24 S4 Rending shots from BS4 suits will kill ~4 MEQ or 1/2 of a TEQ a turn statistically, but YMMV
Back OT - has this thread yet discussed any of the FW suits in 6th edition? Primarily the XV-9 "Hazard" suit? I just ordered 3 and while they're equipped with phased ion guns, I'm going to try counting them as having pulse submunition rifles and see how they perform. 6 s5 large blasts that ignore cover from one unit seems like overkill, but at 350 points or so for the unit i think that's understandable. However the PiG's have rending, so that would be 24 s4 rending shots instead of the blasts.
Both seem good, but which is better?
24 S4 Rending shots from BS4 suits will kill ~4 MEQ or 1/2 of a TEQ a turn statistically, but YMMV
Sadly, Shas'Vre piloting XV-9 suits are only BS3. Which lends me further towards the blast weapon rather than the PiG. With markerlight support, either through drones or pathfinders (or God help me, a pair of tetras!) the Phased ion Gun seems to ramp up considerably in effectiveness, in my test-rolling. I was hoping to hear from some peeps who may have used the XV9 in battle and gotten their impressions of such.
New GWFAQ wrote:Page 30 – Armoury, Disruption Pod.
Change the last sentence to read “A vehicle with a disruption
pod has the Shrouded special rule against any weapons firing
from more than 12" away.”
Now that is good. 3+ cover on a moving hammerhead with MT? yes please!
And Disruption Pods give Shrouded against shooting over 12" away.
So if you move with D-pods you'll be getting a 3+ cover save against anything over 12", 2+ if you go flat out. Looks like Disruption Pods are a must have again. Our vehicles are going to be up there as some of the best with this change, especially Hammerheads with D-pods and Multi-tracker.
Drones aren't Characters any more.
Iridium Armour's movement penalty has been clarified (don't think it really needed it but oh well).
Allied detachments of Tau need to take the 1+ Commander and Fire Warrior units.
New GWFAQ wrote:Page 30 – Armoury, Disruption Pod. Change the last sentence to read “A vehicle with a disruption pod has the Shrouded special rule against any weapons firing from more than 12" away.”
Now that is good. 3+ cover on a moving hammerhead with MT? yes please!
I do believe I will be more open to fielding hammerheads now. This is an absolutely ridiculous buff!
Well, the new FAQ fixed a bunch, yeah Target Lock, but left somethings out in the cold. It really needs to clarify Seeker missles and Snap Fire against fliers. If nothing else it would up the sells of Skyrays.
Ok so I'm not stupid, I understand what target locks do. However does this effect suit loadouts much?
I've only played tau since 6th ed and so no target locks ever for me . On suits anyways.
For FWs it means the commander if he has a marker light and shoot at others.
For suits, my initial thought was to make the commander a Fireknife, but keep the rest of the squad as the dedicated choice you gave them. Ie a firestorm squad with a Fireknife leader, so you can rain Down on MEQs, then if needed shoot a nice side armour shots at some vehicles!
Wasn't too sure if I'm on the right track, haven't looked at points for that either yet, but I see that you can really split some firepower doing that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh And 3 broadsides able to take one FOC slot, and shoot at different targets.
Wow didn't realise that until late! Makes a huge difference, maybe two hammer heads for the lols now.
Tompi3 wrote: Ok so I'm not stupid, I understand what target locks do. However does this effect suit loadouts much?
I've only played tau since 6th ed and so no target locks ever for me . On suits anyways.
For FWs it means the commander if he has a marker light and shoot at others.
For suits, my initial thought was to make the commander a Fireknife, but keep the rest of the squad as the dedicated choice you gave them. Ie a firestorm squad with a Fireknife leader, so you can rain Down on MEQs, then if needed shoot a nice side armour shots at some vehicles!
Wasn't too sure if I'm on the right track, haven't looked at points for that either yet, but I see that you can really split some firepower doing that.
Target Locks don't work all that amaizng on crisis suits but lets talk about dem broadsides. You can split fire them like nobody's business and not overkill something to extreme levels. You can now have one squad of three broadsides possibly take out three vehicles instead of that same squad blowing up one beyond recognition and leaving the others untouched.
Sniper drones and pathfinders with rail rifles can also now shoot at different targets. For the pathfinders, it means the markerlight guys can shoot one squad and your rail rifles can shoot another. Again, this prevents overkill as you can wound one and set up another for severe punishment.
it effect suit loadouts as:
1-you can have 3 broadsides and not overkill
2-you can have a crisis team with multiple different setups to shoot at different targets, each shooting his own specialty
3-sniper drones can troll you into multiple pinning tests.
A great example for mutli-weapon team is the following:
1 with plasma and fusion.
1 with pods and plasma.
1 with pods and fusion.
so no matter who dies, you keep the ability to threat each target type, and you can focus fire with two on the best overall target, then use the third on HIS best target.
You can attach an HQ to stealth suits to give him stealth, and while they shoot at their own targets, he shoots are completely different things.
barnowl wrote: Well, the new FAQ fixed a bunch, yeah Target Lock, but left somethings out in the cold. It really needs to clarify Seeker missles and Snap Fire against fliers. If nothing else it would up the sells of Skyrays.
Skyrays sell anyway as everyone buys them over the Hammerhead kit as you get extra stuff for the same price.
Hopefully GW will look at the sales and think "huh, no-one is using Hammerheads, they need a boost!"
It's a test to see if you're playing against a rules laywering a-hole. If they call you out on that you can show them the fine print where you can kick them in the crotch for being such a prick.
Aegis Defense line is basically a must have now, it will give your hammerheads a 2+ save with new disruption pod rules, as well as this my tetra's will have a nice 2+ cover as they are insanely small and parkable in ruins ;D
Just for clarity on Jetpack moves in the assault phase... is the distance of the traditional JSJ always 2d6 (d6 with IA), or can it be just a standard 6" ?
Significant upgrades. I'll need to account for target locks now in certain units (Fire Warriors, Broadsides) but they're a potential force multiplier in a combined-arms environment.
Tactics question -
In a full Tau force (no Kroot, no Vespid, no allies, nothing) when are there too many Markerlights, in your experiences?
If you bring 2+ tetras, then I don't think you need pathfinders, and vice versa. Bringing too many units t hat don't kill stuff in an army that needs to kill stuff before it gets to them is a bad idea.
Okay, so it sounds like the goal is to balance markerlight weight with killing power so that they feed each other.
I have so many questions about proper formulation of army lists and application of these lists on the table. Anyone willing to let me PM them questions and concerns? It'll be better than junking up the thread.
Rakeeb wrote: Okay, so it sounds like the goal is to balance markerlight weight with killing power so that they feed each other.
I have so many questions about proper formulation of army lists and application of these lists on the table. Anyone willing to let me PM them questions and concerns? It'll be better than junking up the thread.
Thanks!
Im no Tau expert, but I dont mind helping you out.
As someone coming new into 6th ed and starting Tau as well it would be appreciated if this was maybe a new thread or article?
Also in the new FAQ the question about taking Tau as allies basically explicitly stops people taking an ethereal suicide ally to make your Tau walk off the board right?
Rakeeb wrote: Okay, so it sounds like the goal is to balance markerlight weight with killing power so that they feed each other.
I have so many questions about proper formulation of army lists and application of these lists on the table. Anyone willing to let me PM them questions and concerns? It'll be better than junking up the thread.
Thanks!
Im no Tau expert, but I dont mind helping you out.
It does, although I wouldn't have worried about them doing that anyways. With this faq, I think Tau can be a truely competitive army in the right hands. Allies are still a must if allowed though. IMO, it's the cake topper they need to be competitive. (Supid inability to take forward objectives)
In looking at the army list, and thinking back to when I played Marines, I think the biggest problem that the Tau face is that they simply don't have enough firepower, believe it or not. They have big guns, and they have interesting guns, but they don't have enough consistent throughput, especially from 24-36". There is a significant gap in our medium ranged weaponry.
I wish that Fire Warriors could carry (for example) two-man railgun teams, or man-portable missile pods, or some such, to complement the pulse rifles and carbines. I also wish that Long-Barreled Burst Cannon were more common than they are... Devilfish or Hammerheads with longer range on their non-railgun weaponry would be quite useful.
Making it so drones simply have 2 hardpoints would be the logical answer. That way units would get the option of various special weapons.
I'd also like to see them release a Tau weapons sprue that has a missile pod, burst cannon, flamer, plasma rifle, pulse rifle, pulse carbine, markerlight, maybe a rail rifle, etc. That way you could just buy extra sprues as needed. And they could just include 2-per-suit, 1-per-stealthsuit 1-per-drone, etc.
Coyote81 wrote: It does, although I wouldn't have worried about them doing that anyways. With this faq, I think Tau can be a truely competitive army in the right hands. Allies are still a must if allowed though. IMO, it's the cake topper they need to be competitive. (Supid inability to take forward objectives)
Everyone says that, But I have no trouble taking forward objectives using the Seaturtle tactic.
In every objective game Ive played so far, having the pathfinders' Devilfish Flat out infront of my Forward moving fire warriors has allowed me to work towards the forward objectives without any allies.
It should be even more effective now that a Flat out Devilfish out of Melta range has a 2+ cover.
I would love Rail Rifles as a suit / stealth suit option, and the option to take special weapons on drones. TL Flamer Drones, anyone? Or TLFB / TLPR drones?
Being able to mount a bigger gun on a Heavy Drone attached to a FW squad would be perfect. Give Heavy Drones Relentless and Bulky; that would let you still put them in DFish while limiting size. Make them take up 2 drone control points too, so you've only got 1 per squad. Would really really open things up for Tau.
You can still do Forgeworld Sentry Drone Turrets, though. More weapon options, tougher, are troop options. Immobile, but you can buy them Deep Strike and Disruption Pods if you want to. BS2 isn't great, but TL BS2 is better than BS3 base, so IMO they're a good buy.
A TLMP turret with Deep Strike and Disruption Pod weighs in at 45 points. About the same as a Deathrain, only T7 and gets Shrouded.
I plan to invest in some in the near future - though I'll probably convert Heavy Gun Drones since they're a lot cheaper
I know for my end, Forgeworld is going to figure heavily into my basic army design, especially at the Fast Attack slot. Tetras, Remoras, Barracuda, XV-9's, there's a lot of variety there that i can take advantage of.
Bigger question, and a rephrase of one I put in earlier... how do you folks determine how many markerlights you bring in a given size force? Do you plan around a set number for a set volume of points, or do you lean heavily on composition to determine that?
Well it depends on how many markerlights you feel you need per turn.
If you are using Pathfinders, 1/2 of those Markerlights will hit. I like to have 3 markerlights per target( 2 raise BS to 5, 1 reduces Cover by 1 or ignores nightfighting) so I need no less than 5 pathfinders for a squad of pathfinders.
If you use tetras, you get 4 shots per tetra at bs4. 2/3s of those will hit (so about 3 hits) so I would only need one tetra in a squad for my 3 markerlights.
Sometimes you'll roll really well and get more hits, some times you'll roll lower, but on average you'll net 3 each turn they fire at full strength.
This is also at 2k. I've no experience with tau at any other level.
Coyote81 wrote: It does, although I wouldn't have worried about them doing that anyways. With this faq, I think Tau can be a truely competitive army in the right hands. Allies are still a must if allowed though. IMO, it's the cake topper they need to be competitive. (Supid inability to take forward objectives)
Everyone says that, But I have no trouble taking forward objectives using the Seaturtle tactic.
In every objective game Ive played so far, having the pathfinders' Devilfish Flat out infront of my Forward moving fire warriors has allowed me to work towards the forward objectives without any allies.
It should be even more effective now that a Flat out Devilfish out of Melta range has a 2+ cover.
Then your opponenets have given up taking meltaguns which is still one of the ebst anti tank weapons in the game. With a nice application of meltaguns, your seaturtle tactic quickly becomes 2 KP for a smart opponent. Anyone playing against TAu should know one thing, if you can move closer and then fire, do it. Firing from pointblank rangem, and assaulting where possible is who to beat us. With my Tau, I love playing against opposing shooty armies. Have never lost a shootout, Tau are just to resilent and have the weapons to pick apart enemy threats.
Without a fluff retcon I dunno that they'd give us much troop-portable heavier weaponry. The schtick has always been that Fire Warriors only have access to Seeker Missiles, with other firepower coming in the form of various kinds of suits.
Still - better access to rail rifles - say sniper drones becoming fast attack and pathfinders becoming troops? - would be a big help, certainly, but I dunno.
...of course, we could just get a fluff retcon or... something. Supposedly right now the Tau (as of 4E Codex) are early in the 3rd Sphere of Expansion, under the command of Shadowsun. So maybe next codex is set after this wave of expansion and with different forces as a result of that campaign?
Micky wrote: ...of course, we could just get a fluff retcon or... something. Supposedly right now the Tau (as of 4E Codex) are early in the 3rd Sphere of Expansion, under the command of Shadowsun. So maybe next codex is set after this wave of expansion and with different forces as a result of that campaign?
GW will never press the timeline furthur on, so the Tau will be stuck in third shere expansion Im afraid
Its practically required if they want to keep making campaign books, new models and stuff like that SOME sort of explanation of where stuff come from other then "well, it was always there, you just never saw it" must be given.
If the plot it stuck, people will retire. and that's the last thing they want.
Sure, it wont advance quickly, and the status-qou will remain, but events WILL happen.
You can always do campaign books from historical areas, like FW, or actions with limited scope. The last normal GW campaign book was back in 3rd as well so they can just always release a certain battle or something. Advancing the timeline doesnt seem to be a priority since we are gearing up for an already completed 3rd edition campaign according to fluff.
What I would like to see is a reserve of missiles off the board. Say one per troop choice per turn. Or maybe a selection of space born shots depending on the situation. You could still have skyrays for close support caddies.
We are the ally army so it seems fitting that if anyone could take allies it would be us, but in all the discussion no one really mentions taking allies. I was wondering if you guys do take allies which ones do you take?
I was thinking about taking Eldar allies. A farseer with fortune thrown in a group of broadsides with shield drones seems like an unstoppable killing force. Add in a Shas'el with body guards and retro thrusters and you can blow everything up with your massive fire power and if they do get you into combat you can zoom out of it and then shoot them to death. The 2+/4++ shield drones with fortune have a 2.8% chance of failing their armor save and a 25% chance of failing their invulnerable save.
With eldar allies you could take 3 jetbikes as a troop choice and keep them in the back to zoom to an objective at the end of the game. Harlequins could be used to take out anything your shooting can't. I don't think eldar has any heavy support worth taking over our heavy support.
But then again every time I see allies I always feel like it is cheating.
Well, I have been considering Space Marine allies for a while now.
A MotF with a conversion beamer leading a few sniper scouts and a thunderfire cannon can do wonders for our gunline part of the army, and a drop-pod ironclad can be useful to rain havoc in enemy lines and slow them down from coming to us.
I've looked at Marines primarily to get a Librarian and Tactical squads on the field to give us better troop options, but for now I'm going to figure out what fire warriors can and cannot do, and go from there.
lazarian wrote: You can always do campaign books from historical areas, like FW, or actions with limited scope. The last normal GW campaign book was back in 3rd as well so they can just always release a certain battle or something. Advancing the timeline doesnt seem to be a priority since we are gearing up for an already completed 3rd edition campaign according to fluff.
What I would like to see is a reserve of missiles off the board. Say one per troop choice per turn. Or maybe a selection of space born shots depending on the situation. You could still have skyrays for close support caddies.
I'd be happy with a unlimited skyray missile rack but yes, off board missiles would be nice. However for a model company like gw unsurprisingly the off board (so no models) support choices are terrible.
I'd be happy with a unlimited skyray missile rack but yes, off board missiles would be nice. However for a model company like gw unsurprisingly the off board (so no models) support choices are terrible.
Sky Rays with an unlimited supply of missiles would indeed be a great thing to do, although wouldn't quite make up for its other flaws. It would help if the missiles hit automatically or had ignore cover or something.
What if the two markerlights were changed to A: be twin-linked for better accuracy, or B: were upgraded to be like the Tetra markerlights?
I'd be happy with a unlimited skyray missile rack but yes, off board missiles would be nice. However for a model company like gw unsurprisingly the off board (so no models) support choices are terrible.
Sky Rays with an unlimited supply of missiles would indeed be a great thing to do, although wouldn't quite make up for its other flaws. It would help if the missiles hit automatically or had ignore cover or something.
What if the two markerlights were changed to A: be twin-linked for better accuracy, or B: were upgraded to be like the Tetra markerlights?
Actually, I get the feeling that in the next codex, the Sky-ray will become the Tau equivalent of the Razorback. You will see its front and side armour drop by 1 to become the same as the devilfish and that it will become a dedicated transport option for the pathfinders or some such unit that limits the access. Transport capacity will be 8 models.
As for changes to the markerlights? I could see them becoming rapid fire with a 24" range and the networked becoming primarily a vehicle only weapon that is Heavy 2 or heavy 4(Depending upon how markers are re-worked in the next 'dex)
Well that enough off-topic wish-listing for now.
(Back on Topic)
Everybody ready for the shrouded dance party that Mech Tau is now? Thats right, its a ninja rave baby. May have to model my tanks & piranha to play a techno version of "Ride of the Valkeries".
BTW, have updated the OP to reflect the new faq goodness.
Also, thanks to all of you posters that are keeping the thread going.
lambsandlions wrote: We are the ally army so it seems fitting that if anyone could take allies it would be us, but in all the discussion no one really mentions taking allies. I was wondering if you guys do take allies which ones do you take?
I was thinking about taking Eldar allies. A farseer with fortune thrown in a group of broadsides with shield drones seems like an unstoppable killing force. Add in a Shas'el with body guards and retro thrusters and you can blow everything up with your massive fire power and if they do get you into combat you can zoom out of it and then shoot them to death. The 2+/4++ shield drones with fortune have a 2.8% chance of failing their armor save and a 25% chance of failing their invulnerable save.
With eldar allies you could take 3 jetbikes as a troop choice and keep them in the back to zoom to an objective at the end of the game. Harlequins could be used to take out anything your shooting can't. I don't think eldar has any heavy support worth taking over our heavy support.
But then again every time I see allies I always feel like it is cheating.
Except, at least in this particular instance, it really isn't cheating - you can't use fortune on the broadsides and their drones. A harly-star with fortune-seer, however...
I'd be happy with a unlimited skyray missile rack but yes, off board missiles would be nice. However for a model company like gw unsurprisingly the off board (so no models) support choices are terrible.
Sky Rays with an unlimited supply of missiles would indeed be a great thing to do, although wouldn't quite make up for its other flaws. It would help if the missiles hit automatically or had ignore cover or something.
What if the two markerlights were changed to A: be twin-linked for better accuracy, or B: were upgraded to be like the Tetra markerlights?
Actually, I get the feeling that in the next codex, the Sky-ray will become the Tau equivalent of the Razorback. You will see its front and side armour drop by 1 to become the same as the devilfish and that it will become a dedicated transport option for the pathfinders or some such unit that limits the access. Transport capacity will be 8 models.
As for changes to the markerlights? I could see them becoming rapid fire with a 24" range and the networked becoming primarily a vehicle only weapon that is Heavy 2 or heavy 4(Depending upon how markers are re-worked in the next 'dex)
Well that enough off-topic wish-listing for now.
(Back on Topic)
Everybody ready for the shrouded dance party that Mech Tau is now? Thats right, its a ninja rave baby. May have to model my tanks & piranha to play a techno version of "Ride of the Valkeries".
BTW, have updated the OP to reflect the new faq goodness.
Also, thanks to all of you posters that are keeping the thread going.
Have been unable to find a Techno / Electronica version of RotV that didn't sound like utter ass - let me know if you manage it, but atm it's a big crimp in your plan xD
I think from a Fire Warrior perspective, they are best spammed in squads of 6. I did this with 3 squads in 1500 with a triple warlock farseer and 3 suits (They were squads relevant to this) and i found the fire warriors were very very good at mopping up remains of Priesience Fireknifes (THats the divin primaris) and as well as this using 2 squads to reduce one to next to nothing. I reduced a harlequin squad of 10 to 3 with many fire warriors, whilst using the suits to bombard other things.
In terms of counter horde all the warlocks had destructor (Heavy flamer) and i had a shas'o /w AFP and Cyclic for messing up guardsmen squads / guardians etc.
Moving on to allies, eldar are an excellent choice. I was lucky enough to get misfortune (number 3 on the div chart, if its not called misfortune it doesnt matter, i got number 3 ) and this made my opponent re-roll his successful saves. My fireknife squad (with priesience also) flattened a farseer /w fortune and 5 warlocks. Many many many saves were rolled but they were just a farseer towards the end.
Stealth Suits are lovely now. In practice they work very well as an outflanking unit. I fielded 5 with 5 gun drones and just put each drone in front of its owner for wound alloc. Turn 3 i came on and blitzkrieged the striking scorpions with volume of fire (+tetra support). And in other game i managed to take on an entire power blob ^^ (crater goodness, poor drones got plasma to the face tho..)
Before the FAQ I constantly ran 4 squads of Firewarriors with 6 troops each. It was incredibly effective because I had the firepower of two full squads but the ability to shift half of the squad to wherever it is needed. Kinda like a psudo target lock. But post FAQ, I'm considering going back up to 2 12 man squads and giving them each a devilfish and abusing the cover save on my sea turtles.
I feel that we've beaten good units to death and have a solid idea of what works and what doesn't by this point. What I would like to shift this discussion to is how to handle a heavy drop pod list. Last time I played I got flattened by a three DP list with a biker squad that essentially pincered me in my DZ. My opponent's turn one pods had a sternguard with a librarian and a dreadnaught. I managed to clear them but the third dropped with a tactical squad that lit my remainder up. All this time, the bikers are roaring up into assault from the other direction.
How would you approach tackling a list like this? I've been wracking myself over it ever since that game and would love to hear opinions on general coping strategies.
Ovion wrote: Putting your own models in reserve should reduce the effectiveness of their pods.
Keep 'choice targets' held back, such as Hammerheads, maybe Broadsides, a D'Fish or two with troops in, etc.
I always keep hammerheads in reserve, but the issue is that turn 1 droppods will just enter the battlefield and blow the everliving crap out of whatever I have on the board with me having a chance of my reserves actually not showing up. I feel that would be a bit too risky.
Also - wouldn't 4 squads of 6 still be better, that way, 2-4 squads can have fish, and fire at different targets.
Possibly, but I would be keeping the fish in reserve and have them rock up to wherever needs the extra help. I also save 20 points by not having to take the extra Shas'ui for the two other squads. Sure, it's not much but it may be important. I'm still toying with making new lists but I absolutely love the idea of the full devilfish rocking up turn 2-3 and pushing my enemy off an objective to claim it themselves.
ALSO, target lock only allows the model with it to split fire, so only 1 model of 12 can fire at a different target.
It was a figure of speech, hense the word "psudo", meaning behaves like. I was using that to mean that I it was like having one large 12 man squad being able to fire at two separate targets. Not actually having a target lock.
My point was, 2 seperate squads = better than target lock.
Allowing 2 targets to be chosen with a reasonable amount of fire pointed at each, while Target Lock only allows 1 model to do the same. It's useful for markerlights, but not much else on Firewarrior squads.
I think you missed the point ovion. 4x Squads of 6 means you can split those 6 pulse rifles anyway you want, so 4 targets and 24 pulse firepower. 2x squads of 12 halves the targets but maintains firepower. Essentially you choose versatility and fragility, the 6 man squads, or you choose less but tougher squads, with concentrated firepower.
The latter against MEQ armies, but against for example power blobs the 6 man squads are much better.
Especially if you stick markerlights, Target locks and multi-trackers on the Shas'ui team leaders.
So if you use the shas'ui to markerlight the unit you want to shoot at next (whilst also getting a pulse rifle shot off at it) then the FW squad which does shoot at that target could be BS4. The FW shas'ui from that unit can then mark and shoot at another unit so yet another FW squad can fire at BS4.
Alternatively all the squads shoot at the same target, (hopefully) using the markerlight hit from the unit which shot immediately before and setting up a new one for the next unit to use. The shas'ui from the last unit to fire can split fire and stick a markerlight on another unit for something else in your army to use, such as reducing the cover save on a vehicle so your Railguns aren't wasted.
I always keep hammerheads in reserve, but the issue is that turn 1 droppods will just enter the battlefield and blow the everliving crap out of whatever I have on the board with me having a chance of my reserves actually not showing up. I feel that would be a bit too risky.
Well, if you see you are facing a drop pod assault situation try to deploy tanks next to as much drop-pod blocked terrain as you can, then use your troops to create a loose warp around your tanks that forbids enemies from dropping and entering into the 6 inch range from your tank, effectively reducing the threat of both melta drops and flamer drops in pods into a manageable amount, as you have time to respond to the drop and eliminate it before they can do too much harm.
After all, tacticals and dreads alike have serious problems taking down tanks from outside melta range and when charging is blocked, and flamers are weak against conga lines-so both main threats are minimized.
I always keep hammerheads in reserve, but the issue is that turn 1 droppods will just enter the battlefield and blow the everliving crap out of whatever I have on the board with me having a chance of my reserves actually not showing up. I feel that would be a bit too risky.
Well, if you see you are facing a drop pod assault situation try to deploy tanks next to as much drop-pod blocked terrain as you can, then use your troops to create a loose warp around your tanks that forbids enemies from dropping and entering into the 6 inch range from your tank, effectively reducing the threat of both melta drops and flamer drops in pods into a manageable amount, as you have time to respond to the drop and eliminate it before they can do too much harm.
After all, tacticals and dreads alike have serious problems taking down tanks from outside melta range and when charging is blocked, and flamers are weak against conga lines-so both main threats are minimized.
I quite like this reply. Gives me hope for what could potentially be done. I typically don't deploy vehicles and keep them in reserves but I could apply the same tactic to protect my broadsides and crisis suits which I like to deploy on the board. Then after I force him to make his T1 pods then I have the potential for my T2 hammerheads to roll up and have fun with pie plates.
The issue is that I was deploying first and I saw my opponent had bikes so I lined the nearest short edge (we were playing corners) with fire warriors so they could prevent him from outflanking effectively on that side. Unfortunately for me, he just deployed them normally.
I'm not familiar with the restrictions of drop pod deep strike as I have never played an army that has used them. I know they cannot hit terrain, but is there anything else that they cannot do?
Even better, due to the fact they MUST disembark, if the guys inside can't walk anywhere, they are removed as casualties, so you can use your infantry to set up "traps" with empty circles in a perfect size yet completely surrounded, abusing the drop-pod's own ability to auto-relocate himself to the nearest clear landing zone, so that if he scatters near there by attempting to drop himself too close, he risks losing his entire squad/dread just by not being able to leave the pod.
Not sure what is the base size of a pod (dont got one on me), but you need 1 more inch to every direction, but I assume a large blast is in the correct size to give a pod+1 inch diameter, and if I am right about the size, then a 12 man squad can create such a circle on it's own, then whatever suits or such you got around to make the "bad drop" area that causes pods to scatter into the "trap"
Best of all, if he questions about your formation, you outright TELL him your strategy, and look at his face as he realize that attempting to land near your guys can lead to instant-death to the entire squad/dread because of the unique deployment.
With such traps though, I think deploying as many units as possible would be best, so you can have multiple such circles, with only "expendable" units in the outer area of your forces, making any drop either be way too far from valuable units, or take a massive risk to outright die.
EDIT:
HOLY SHIZA!!!!
I just realized what I have done!
As ANY non-elite army can pull this off due to having sufficient models, and elite armies not caring all that much from drop-pod assault, did I just totally wrecked the "Rain of Iron" list?
re: Squads of Fire Warriors with target locks and markerlights.
I've actually been avoiding this setup myself - I'm running 3-4 small squads (6-8) with a Shas'ui and a gun drone or shield drone (depends on points) and photon grenades.
I'm really enjoying running them as mobile skirmish squads, without having the heavy weapon weighing them down, just using them to distract and harass the flanks of the enemy so that I'm not always hitting the tough/worthless guys at the front.
YotsubaSnake wrote: Before the FAQ I constantly ran 4 squads of Firewarriors with 6 troops each. It was incredibly effective because I had the firepower of two full squads but the ability to shift half of the squad to wherever it is needed. Kinda like a psudo target lock. But post FAQ, I'm considering going back up to 2 12 man squads and giving them each a devilfish and abusing the cover save on my sea turtles.
I feel that we've beaten good units to death and have a solid idea of what works and what doesn't by this point. What I would like to shift this discussion to is how to handle a heavy drop pod list. Last time I played I got flattened by a three DP list with a biker squad that essentially pincered me in my DZ. My opponent's turn one pods had a sternguard with a librarian and a dreadnaught. I managed to clear them but the third dropped with a tactical squad that lit my remainder up. All this time, the bikers are roaring up into assault from the other direction.
How would you approach tackling a list like this? I've been wracking myself over it ever since that game and would love to hear opinions on general coping strategies.
Maneuver.
The biggest weakness of the drop pod list is that when it's on the ground, it's on the ground. They don't come with Rhinos, or Razorbacks, and unless there are other factors involved (e.g. Shryke) they just won't be all that fast. You can use a Devilfish-heavy army to quickly redeploy your forces.
In your example, I would have deployed in cover and spaced out if possible, FWs in vehicles, any Kroot or Ork allies deployed as a screen, suits in Deep Strike mode; I probably would have left the Hammerhead on the board as a fire magnet / QRC. The idea would be to endure in the first round, immediately move to destroy the enemy's ability to quickly respond (murder the bikes, bury them in pulse rifle fire... they are not some doom unit, we are uniquely capable of gunning them down with straight-up troops), and get completely out of the previous deployment zone. Denying the enemy the ability to react through killing the bikes and invalidating their drop pod placement will put you in a position to utilize your own reaction capability through suit deep strike, your higher base FW range, and transport options.
EDIT: I like DoomWolf's idea, but if I was on the other end of that, I would cluster my drop pods together and put a weight of fire on one end of the pretty circles. They'll have to be in the open and spread out enough to coax DPs into landing into the doom circles, which means that chunks of the army are going to be isolated from the rest.
So i have played a couple of games with Tau. and i have a few questions
1; What is the best way to use Stealth Suits?
I have seen one guy us them as mobile markerlights. Give them two Drones and such.
2:Should I run a 2 units of broadsides with 2 each and a Ion head or 3 broadsides, and a sniper team?
3: Should I get a pirahna?
hotsauceman1 wrote: So i have played a couple of games with Tau. and i have a few questions
1; What is the best way to use Stealth Suits?
I have seen one guy us them as mobile markerlights. Give them two Drones and such.
2:Should I run a 2 units of broadsides with 2 each and a Ion head or 3 broadsides, and a sniper team?
3: Should I get a pirahna?
I would say it depends on your play style and point limits but in general
1. I will ether deep strike em and in the rear and take out enemy heavy units in the back or infiltrate them into terrain and watch the enemy cry as they try hit through potential 2+ cover saves
2. With the return of target locks you could give it to the leader of a 3 man squad of broadsides that way you don’t over kill with 2 squads. Sniper drones are so so but it’s up to you.
3. This would depend on your play style as well. I could see them being useful only as a road block or a quick melta shot though I just don’t like em so I may be bias.
Also on a side note, I find that now when running kroot again, to help em survive overwatch, I will disembark all my gun drones after first blood has been cleared and use them as a mobile throw away unit to bait out over watch or for the last second contests. So I could see piranhas being useful as drone delivery vehicles.
in Tau 6th Ed codex, taking Commander Shadowsun might make Stealth Teams into troops....
...o.o.
Me and my local GW managers thoughts are that Farsight will make Crisis suits troops, or at the very least a single unit of them (similar to Warbosses and Nobz).
Me and my local GW managers thoughts are that Farsight will make Crisis suits troops, or at the very least a single unit of them (similar to Warbosses and Nobz).
It would be cool if they also brought back the old +1 WS rule, or something similar like giving crisis suits a power weapon, to represent the fact that Farsight troops are trained differently.
hotsauceman1 wrote: So i have played a couple of games with Tau. and i have a few questions
1; What is the best way to use Stealth Suits?
I have seen one guy us them as mobile markerlights. Give them two Drones and such.
2:Should I run a 2 units of broadsides with 2 each and a Ion head or 3 broadsides, and a sniper team?
3: Should I get a pirahna?
1. There are a number of different uses for the stealth suits. Marker teams (what you've suggested here) are an option; I think they cost too much to be a dedicated markerlight unit for their return, although you are buying some very durable markerlights. Big dakka balls with 6 suits, 12 drones, and 28 S5 shots a round are another option. A third option is a bare minimum team with fusion guns, EMP grenades on the Shas'vre, and utilizing deep strike to take out critical armored targets. Personally, I lean more towards #2, with a dedicated HQ to give it a bit of medium armor killing punch. The Shas'el inherits the stealth and shrouded bonuses from the unit, so that's useful.
2. I think that's really determined by your army composition and what you're trying to accomplish. Personally, I'm not the biggest fan of sniper teams. They're better than they were, but they're still not good enough, and I'll be looking for them to be 0-2 Troops in the next codex.
3. I'm not currently sold on Pirahna, not because they're bad (they're a little overcosted but really hard to kill at this point compared to their ability to screw with adversary movement) but because I like some of the other available options for Fast Attack, like Pathfinders. Pirahna need a slightly heavier arms load before I'd go with them.
A Piranha with Fusion Blaster and D-pods could be pretty useful as a fire magnet/sponge now. Turn one you flat out down the board making sure you stop in a position where enemy units can't get within 12" of you but where you'll be able to threaten a vehicle or other expensive unit (such as a T4 IC on his own) on your next turn. Meanwhile you move up the rest of your force to positions of strength in the centre of the field.
Your opponent then has to decide whether to ignore the Piranha and shoot at your main force, which risks losing something shiny to a Fusion Blaster, or to try and break through a 2+ cover save which will take quite a bit of his armies firepower, either in the form of small arms to try and glance you to death or with bigger guns to try and pop it outright.
Most opponents don't want a Fast Skimmer borne Meltagun roaming in their backfield so some of their shooting is going to be going its way.
A Town Called Malus wrote: A Piranha with Fusion Blaster and D-pods could be pretty useful as a fire magnet/sponge now. Turn one you flat out down the board making sure you stop in a position where enemy units can't get within 12" of you but where you'll be able to threaten a vehicle or other expensive unit (such as a T4 IC on his own) on your next turn. Meanwhile you move up the rest of your force to positions of strength in the centre of the field.
Your opponent then has to decide whether to ignore the Piranha and shoot at your main force, which risks losing something shiny to a Fusion Blaster, or to try and break through a 2+ cover save which will take quite a bit of his armies firepower, either in the form of small arms to try and glance you to death or with bigger guns to try and pop it outright.
Most opponents don't want a Fast Skimmer borne Meltagun roaming in their backfield so some of their shooting is going to be going its way.
Pirahna TX-42 probably even better for that, right?
Id like to clarify regarding the ASS wargear (the stuff mentioned in the first post of this thread), ASS says you choose to use it at the movement phase and you have SnP until end of turn. Turn is always referred to as Player Turn as opposed to game (pg 9 of BRB), so broadsides with ASS do not have SnP during the opponents turn and can then overwatch if assaulted. Also why would you activate the ASS if you wanted to run?
Played a league game last night vs C:SM and C:BA with my Tau and a friend using DE. The game totals were 1250 per player, so 2500 points per side. In terms of flyers, our side had 2 barracudas and a razorwing jet fighter, they had a single storm raven. They also had a quad gun -- Those things are ridiculously good vs flyers with low AV. It was a great game with tons of back-and-forth action, my HQ crisis team was nearly clobbered by mephiston - I thought i had them hidden but he could see a gun drone through a window - then he rolled 1,1 to charge, re-rolled with fleet and got 1,1 again! It saved me - I was able to JSJ and get him with plasma rifles on my turn.
The Barracuda Air Superiority Fighters were the main things I wanted to try out in the list - I managed to evade the quad gun with 1 the turn they came on the table, and both survived until turns 5 and 6. The storm raven laughed off their s7 shooting, however, so i spent the rest of the game targeting infantry with them. Flyer mobility is really limited, especially when your opponent has enough ground troops to block where they can be placed. however, the s7 ap3 ion cannons worked great vs space marines, then the dark eldar splinter weaponry blanketed squads with armor saves finishing them off.
So, all in all a great game, I had a lot of fun, the new disruption pods make hammerheads and devilfish nearly invincible to long-range shooting. I can't wait to get some more games in with my flyers, and soon I will have and test out the XV-9 hazard suit and commander shas'o r'alai. I'm going to try them first with Phased ion Guns (PiGs) and counts-as pulse submunitions once or twice as well.
On the subject of Piranha's, they generally suck. The TX-42 from forgeworld however is great. You can give it twin-linked missile pods, giving it 4 S7 shots, Twin Linked, for relatively cheap, as well as having 2 fusion blasters, 2 of everything as opposed to the one shot fusion blaster than generally lets you down half the game :/
hotsauceman1 wrote: So i have played a couple of games with Tau. and i have a few questions
1; What is the best way to use Stealth Suits?
I have seen one guy us them as mobile markerlights. Give them two Drones and such.
I personally run two squads of 6 suits each, one equipped with two fusion and the other all burst. I use them as a front line infiltration to help distract my opponent while the rest of my forces get into position. They jump around being elusive and doing what damage they can (fusion hunting vehicles and 2+ armor obviously). Your opponents don't take kindly to that kind of hit and run abuse and will obviously direct their firepower that way.
2:Should I run a 2 units of broadsides with 2 each and a Ion head or 3 broadsides, and a sniper team?
Since target locks came back, sniper teams are more viable now. I can't really vote one way or the other seeing as both an ion heads and sniper teams benefit from cover save bonuses they have their advantages.
3: Should I get a pirahna?
I personally didn't like them before the new FAQ but if you do take one now, be incredibly aggressive. Nothing is scarier than something that flies around at that speed with a 2+ cover save and pops your valuable vehicles and troops almost effortlessly.
The Ion Head seems actually pretty cool these days, especially with Broadsides handling the vehicle killin duties.... 130pts makes a pretty decent heavy infantry killer which can stay quite mobile and keep out of range.
Sniper drone teams have just as much killing potential for much cheaper, but are potentially more vulnerable, especially since they cant move without giving up their firepower.
Still... 3x Sniper Drone teams taking up 1 slot in your force is not something to sneeze at.
240points for 3 squads of 3 rail rifles with +3 to cover saves? Keep those guys safe and they can seriously clean up.
BoomWolf wrote: Don't forget 3 markerlights that can REALLY mess up your opponent's day are bagged in the price.
BS4 markerlights, at that. The 3 drone controllers can pile tokens onto a key unit, while the sniper drones try to force pinning checks on other infantry.
Micky wrote: The Ion Head seems actually pretty cool these days, especially with Broadsides handling the vehicle killin duties.... 130pts makes a pretty decent heavy infantry killer which can stay quite mobile and keep out of range.
Sniper drone teams have just as much killing potential for much cheaper, but are potentially more vulnerable, especially since they cant move without giving up their firepower.
Still... 3x Sniper Drone teams taking up 1 slot in your force is not something to sneeze at.
240points for 3 squads of 3 rail rifles with +3 to cover saves? Keep those guys safe and they can seriously clean up.
It's silly, but if you're playing with FW rules, TL Plasma Cannon > Ion Cannon every day of the week
For the same price you get:
same STR & AP +1 Shot
Twin Linked
- 12" range
Micky wrote: The Ion Head seems actually pretty cool these days, especially with Broadsides handling the vehicle killin duties.... 130pts makes a pretty decent heavy infantry killer which can stay quite mobile and keep out of range.
Sniper drone teams have just as much killing potential for much cheaper, but are potentially more vulnerable, especially since they cant move without giving up their firepower.
Still... 3x Sniper Drone teams taking up 1 slot in your force is not something to sneeze at.
240points for 3 squads of 3 rail rifles with +3 to cover saves? Keep those guys safe and they can seriously clean up.
It's silly, but if you're playing with FW rules, TL Plasma Cannon > Ion Cannon every day of the week
For the same price you get:
same STR & AP +1 Shot
Twin Linked
- 12" range
When playing my FLOrkPlayer, I was thinking of running a Plas head & a Missile head both with burst cannons, the terrain thing, DPods, Fletchettes and MTs
So How are Kroot? Someone recommended get 15 kroot and 10 hounds so i can have 75 attacks on the charge. with hounds going before SM in initiative.
Someone also said Tau is bad for a new player like me, To be good at them i need t be a veteran.
hotsauceman1 wrote: So How are Kroot? Someone recommended get 15 kroot and 10 hounds so i can have 75 attacks on the charge. with hounds going before SM in initiative.
Kroot are okay. In the past they were great as a meat shield, but since our mobility went up and their cover quality went down, they lost usefulness. I ended up shifting the points I used to use for kroot to firewarriors that shoot better than kroot.
Someone also said Tau is bad for a new player like me, To be good at them i need t be a veteran.
Tau was my first army and the army I learned to play the game with. They're not the easiest but there is no army strictly for "veterans". That player sounds like they're just trying to tout their experience over you. Ignore it and work hard to become a strong supporter of the greater good.
Tau are not "bad" for new players, they are just hard for new players, as they require a lot of delicate work and pinpoint precision on time, and errors will cost you dearly, yet good moves can yield intense rewards.
They are far more complex then most armies, but that makes them in a way a good practice and quicker to get skill.
Tau are great for a starting army. We don't have any crutches to lean on. We can't spam hordes of cheap infantry or tanks, we can't rely on above average stat-lines and massively powerful wargear.
All we've got is force multipliers in the form of Markerlights and some powerful guns, which all cost points. Some of the points costs are too high. Our Plasma Rifle, only carried by our elite soldiers, costs twice as much as a Plasma Gun for a basic Tactical Marine squad. To add insult to injury those basic marines are more accurate with their cheaper plasma gun than our elite infantry are with our more expensive rifle.
Ovion wrote:Tau handle GK the same waythey handle everything.
Shoot them. Lots. With pulse / rail / plasma / missile weaponry till they fall over, or die trying. :p
Exactly, and now that they lost their "we're all characters" status, it's even easier. Shoot them with AP2-1 weapons to make them take invuln saves and they'll eventually dissapear. They're a small model count army so your target choices are small. Focus them down one at a time. Also, rail guns ID them so broadsides with plasma rifles are a great addition to any heavy terminator meta.
So - in terms of cutting down their infantry, mass pulse rifle is viable, then? There are only so many Broadsides to go around and I figure they'll sight on Dreadknights first and foremost.
hotsauceman1 wrote: So How are Kroot? Someone recommended get 15 kroot and 10 hounds so i can have 75 attacks on the charge. with hounds going before SM in initiative.
Someone also said Tau is bad for a new player like me, To be good at them i need t be a veteran.
In 6th it's pretty much never a good idea for Kroot to charge anything that isn't a vehicle, especially against opponents in cover or with higher initiative because you lose a lot of models before you get to strike. You're better off rapid-firing rifles, then taking the charge (overwatch plus your 2 attacks for everybody who survives). You nearly always get more attacks that way.
That's also why hounds are less worthwhile now, because you almost never charge anything (except vehicles where kroot are just as good as hounds) and you lose the rifle shot.
I routinely use 2 units of 10 kroot with no upgrades. If I know my opponent will be running at me trying to assault, the kroot can make a suicide screen or bubble wrap and give me a couple of extra turns of shooting.
There used to be some youtube videos on how to do this, but I can't find one at the moment.
If my opponent won't be trying to overrun me, I outflank the kroot, especially in the short table edge deployment scenarios where you have that huge long edge to outflank on (and also especially if my warlord rolls a 3 on the strategic table, which gives the kroot acute senses). They are really good at popping onto the table, shooting up backfield troops or a long-range shooty tank that were trying to hide, and sometimes even surviving. Or you can always outflank into some convenient woods in your opponent's DZ and then go to ground for the linebreaker point in most scenarios.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Kroot in woods are actually quite durable, with a base 4+ save or a 2+ if they go to ground--really hard to displace. Their biggest weakness is the low leadership.
10 kroot is a good number because it's cheap. 13 kroot is the other good number, because you have to lose 4 models before making a break test.
Rakeeb wrote: So - in terms of cutting down their infantry, mass pulse rifle is viable, then? There are only so many Broadsides to go around and I figure they'll sight on Dreadknights first and foremost.
It is, but only if you have LOTS of it, meaning two whole squads worth at minimum. The more useful stuff is the AP1/2 weaponry that slices through any and all armor they have. A team of 3 broadsides with plasma rifles will be a nightmare for them because of the AP2 rapid fire they carry.
As for the dreadknight, only worry about it if it comes with a teleporter and makes a shunt move. Otherwise, keep your distance and cut away their troops first. Two wound termies in their Paladins are not fun to deal with and you want to get rid of those fast. You can kite around the dreadknight outside of his charge range because he's less of a threat. The reason why is dreadknights are MCs and not vehicles like their dreadnaught counterparts and can't be IDd by your broadsides. A pair of 88s will waste at least two turns trying to kill it, most likely three which is half the game where your 88s could have murdered much more points value in palidins and troop termies.
All we've got is force multipliers in the form of Markerlights and some powerful guns, which all cost points. Some of the points costs are too high. Our Plasma Rifle, only carried by our elite soldiers, costs twice as much as a Plasma Gun for a basic Tactical Marine squad. To add insult to injury those basic marines are more accurate with their cheaper plasma gun than our elite infantry are with our more expensive rifle.
To be fair they tend to shoot another high-power gun at the same time, and got much more mobility so in the end result they are far more dangerous.
Just had a game where my helios command team spent turn 1 on reducing 5 close-combat scouts who inflitrating badly to 1 dude, then spend turn 2 to remove a bunch of marine bikers from reality. and left unscratched.
Just tried out the turbo boosting melta piranha with seeker missiles to get some nice rear and side AV seeker missile shots, and wouldn't you know it but I was paired up against Nids. Instead it zipped around being annoying and finished off the tervigon in base to base with my bastion. I forgot how fun those little skimmers are.
I want to stress again how awesome the Eldar allies are for Tau. Watching his zoanthropes perils themselves instead of lancing my tanks was a nice change of pace.
Finally, that 2D6 jump move AFTER DEEPSTRIKING is the most wonderful thing ever. Shadowsun now rocks, what with that, the pathfinder fish, and the epic cover save (and saves from dangerous terrain).
I was under the impression that stealth suits and XV-8's were still unable to make a jet pack move after deep striking, because it dictates as much in the Codex. Did that change quietly?
Rakeeb wrote: I was under the impression that stealth suits and XV-8's were still unable to make a jet pack move after deep striking, because it dictates as much in the Codex. Did that change quietly?
Yes, the tau FAQ completely changed the codex entry to say crisis and stealth suits count as jet pack infantry. The BRB specifically mentions thrusting after deep strike as legal. So DS suits are better now.
I just looked it up and you are as usual right on the money.
That is fantastic, but I feel like it doesn't take certain models' point cost into account. Seems like the XV-9 units just lost some comparative value, and like everything else in this Codex they're overcosted.
Rakeeb wrote: I just looked it up and you are as usual right on the money.
That is fantastic, but I feel like it doesn't take certain models' point cost into account. Seems like the XV-9 units just lost some comparative value, and like everything else in this Codex they're overcosted.
Let's be honest here, XV-9 suits are awesome and have killer weaponry, but they have always been overcosted from the beginning -They cost the same as a shas'o crisis commander before upgrades, but have no where near the same statline. BS4 for a Shas'vre isn't too much to ask for, i should think.
However My 47 point suicide-suits (twin linked fusion, flamer) can now drop in,. melta a land raider to death, then 2d6 thrust behind terrain and potentially not die automatically. Stealth suits can do similar - deep strike in 15-18" away from the target, rain down with BC firepower, then thrust into area terrain like a crater or ruin and claim a 2+ cover save in the ensuing shooting phase. Tau are officially the mobile gunline army.
I rather use my stealth suits as infiltrators then deep striking, making a gun blob behind some heavy LoS blocker to JSJ them into and away from enemy forces and gain much zone control.
Did it yesterday against TAC marines in a rhino that attempted to deploy at my "weak flank" and get to my fire bases quickly only to discover they are alone against a stealth blob and needless to say the rhino did not survive turn 1, and the tactical got butchered over the game. (the stealth team left them alone after they reached a ration of 7 dead tacticals for 0 dead stealth or drones, and let the incoming kroot squad remove them for the objective)
BoomWolf wrote: I rather use my stealth suits as infiltrators then deep striking, making a gun blob behind some heavy LoS blocker to JSJ them into and away from enemy forces and gain much zone control.
Did it yesterday against TAC marines in a rhino that attempted to deploy at my "weak flank" and get to my fire bases quickly only to discover they are alone against a stealth blob and needless to say the rhino did not survive turn 1, and the tactical got butchered over the game. (the stealth team left them alone after they reached a ration of 7 dead tacticals for 0 dead stealth or drones, and let the incoming kroot squad remove them for the objective)
And this right here is exactly how I use them and exactly how they should be used. They provide an extra layer of deception during deployment as well as expand your potential deployment range. The only catch is, be careful of bikes. Stealth teams hate bikes because they can be caught incredibly easily.
So what is everyone's opinion on stealth suits? I am internally torn. On the one hand they are s5 ap5 shots that out army has tons of. They are close range and only really good in cover. Also they are not a scoring unit for objectives, but they can contest objectives at the end of the game by jumping, running and jumping again. They are also almost always on the enemies side of the board for line breaker. On the other hand firewarriors are the same number of shots for the same price but they are scoring units and if they get in 15'' of someone they have twice as many shots as the same priced stealth suits. So should someone take stealth suits and if so how many
Also some other food for thought. The tau only have 8 fingers so their counting system is base 8, 0-7. However because it is base 8 there is no actual number in tau for 8. 8 would be represented as 10. If you look at the transfer sheet you will see the numbers 0-7. So tau does not have a number for 8 but their crisis suit, the hallmark of their army is called the xv8. Should the suit really be called the xv10?
lambsandlions wrote: So what is everyone's opinion on stealth suits? I am internally torn. On the one hand they are s5 ap5 shots that out army has tons of. They are close range and only really good in cover. Also they are not a scoring unit for objectives, but they can contest objectives at the end of the game by jumping, running and jumping again. They are also almost always on the enemies side of the board for line breaker. On the other hand firewarriors are the same number of shots for the same price but they are scoring units and if they get in 15'' of someone they have twice as many shots as the same priced stealth suits. So should someone take stealth suits and if so how many
The cover save is a godsend. You don't have to be in cover to utilize it but being in cover maximizes it. Just a 4+ doubles as an invuln save when they hit you with AP3 or better weaponry.
Comparing them to firewarriors is awkward because of the inherent differences in unit mobility, survivability and range. The FOC difference as well means that stealth suits can only be really compared to crisis suits. Crisis suits carry more versatile weaponry for heavier firepower. Stealth teams carry weaker weaponry but are MUCH more survivable due to the cover save. It's a toss up on what is better, but I lean stealth because of the predominance of AP3 or better weaponry in my local meta.
Also some other food for thought. The tau only have 8 fingers so their counting system is base 8, 0-7. However because it is base 8 there is no actual number in tau for 8. 8 would be represented as 10. If you look at the transfer sheet you will see the numbers 0-7. So tau does not have a number for 8 but their crisis suit, the hallmark of their army is called the xv8. Should the suit really be called the xv10?
Just a point of note... Codexes are written in human english, not the tau language. Whatever base their culture uses as a numbering scheme is translated into human base 10. This is also evident in the XV-88 broadside battlesuits as well as the XV-9 forgeworld battlesuits.
3-6 Stealth Suits with 6-12 Gun Drones is fairly brutal. The reason they're good now because of the +3 to cover which has been covered a lot, but I think the big one in the end is that they actually feel like they're worth their points cost now.
I just wish that stealth suits were harder to hit when it is dark as opposed to in the bright noon-day sun. It doesn't matter too much, but it annoys me. Same goes for the new disruption pods, and units that come with stealth.
So I am wondering at what point do markerlights become worth taking? With disruption pods devilfish are still over cost but they are not completely horrible. They are nice mobile terrain and can get your firewarriors to the other side of the board. One of the biggest disadvantages to pathfinders are the devil fish they must take but now that the devil fish is not that horrible are pathfinders worth a slot in a 1500point army?
The big hole in the list I feel are the devil fish and pathfinders but maybe it is not that bad. I could replace that 145 points of pathfinders with 2 more crisis suits but would that be better than getting markerlights in the army?
5 Pathfinders isn't really that worth it, 2-3 markers on 1 target... not so amazing.. generally you want at least 6.
To be honest, I would use that 146pts (and a little reshufle) to have 4 squads of firewarriors with ui's and BSFs, 2 extra gun drones for the stealth suits (+team leader and a BSF).
That way the whole army ignores night-fighting, there's 2 more wounds and twin-linked shots on the stealth suits, and there's 4 troops to sit on objectives.
One thing I've been toying with in my lists is decentralized markerlights. By that I mean avoiding the usual Fast Attack markerlight sources - Pathfinders, Tetras - and instead giving various units throughout the army that functionality along with Target Locks to let them point at other targets if necessary. The idea here is to retain markerlight presence in the army list while also adding more killy power to the army, since I'm not siphoning valuable points into a Pathfinder unit, which typically only carried pulse carbines (and if you're shooting them, something is likely amiss). This'll also allow for additional targeting flexibility for those markerlights, since they can be individually allocated. The examples of things I'm thinking about are Skyray use, Shas'ui units in Fire Warrior teams carrying them, Shas'vre Stealth Suits, Remote Sensor Towers, and possibly XV-84 units. Marker drones are unlikely for me, since they're so points-expensive.
The downsides I can think of are twofold; first, in the case of Fire Warriors, the fact that our designators are heavy weapons will throw things off. Availability of those units will be on a 1 to 1 basis. Second, this means that Markerlight use would play into actual targeting for units I'd like to use to shoot things. Since a unit nominates targets to shoot at as a unit, this means that shooting phases will have to be carefully planned in order to derive maximum benefit from those phases.... things like RST's and Skyrays would shoot first, and then we'd go from there, with networked markerlights being used almost specifically to enable that one unit's shooting.
What do you folks think?
Re: Ovion...I'm thinking Ovion is referring to the volume of Pathfinders, versus needing 5+ markers on one target. I'm guessing that's so that significant numbers of markerlights on a target can be reliably applied by one unit shooting.
One thing I've been toying with in my lists is decentralized markerlights. By that I mean avoiding the usual Fast Attack markerlight sources - Pathfinders, Tetras - and instead giving various units throughout the army that functionality along with Target Locks to let them point at other targets if necessary. The idea here is to retain markerlight presence in the army list while also adding more killy power to the army, since I'm not siphoning valuable points into a Pathfinder unit, which typically only carried pulse carbines (and if you're shooting them, something is likely amiss). This'll also allow for additional targeting flexibility for those markerlights, since they can be individually allocated. The examples of things I'm thinking about are Skyray use, Shas'ui units in Fire Warrior teams carrying them, Shas'vre Stealth Suits, Remote Sensor Towers, and possibly XV-84 units. Marker drones are unlikely for me, since they're so points-expensive.
The downsides I can think of are twofold; first, in the case of Fire Warriors, the fact that our designators are heavy weapons will throw things off. Availability of those units will be on a 1 to 1 basis. Second, this means that Markerlight use would play into actual targeting for units I'd like to use to shoot things. Since a unit nominates targets to shoot at as a unit, this means that shooting phases will have to be carefully planned in order to derive maximum benefit from those phases.... things like RST's and Skyrays would shoot first, and then we'd go from there, with networked markerlights being used almost specifically to enable that one unit's shooting.
What do you folks think?
Re: Ovion...I'm thinking Ovion is referring to the volume of Pathfinders, versus needing 5+ markers on one target. I'm guessing that's so that significant numbers of markerlights on a target can be reliably applied by one unit shooting.
There are a few problems I have with putting marker lights on different unites. First, is mobility. Now that you can move and shoot a pulse rifle at 30'' you don't want to be standing still. And if you move you can only fire the marker light at snap shot. Second, is the point cost. a xv25 with marker lights costs at least 45 points, a shas'ui fire warrior with marker lights cost at least 30 points. marker drones cost 30 points per marker light. Those are all significantly more expensive than 12 point pathfinders. Finally marker light focus is an issue. When you have your marker lights spread out they don't really do much. And you have no guarantee that the unit you want dead will get the lights to kill it. I would much rather have a single source of marker lights.
What we need is a method of *survivable* markerlights at pathfinder costs - currently there isn't really anything we can do in that regard.
Pathfinders, while incredibly useful for +2 points per model over firewarriors, die incredibly quickly the moment any opponent with long-ranged weaponry fires on them (Hurricane bolters on storm ravens, too). What you end up with is a devilfish with a useful ability and 5-8 light infantry. For the same inherent points cost, because the devilfish is a mandatory purchase, you can get a stealth marker team. This too has trade-offs - it uses an elite slot, rather than fast attack, and only gets 3 marker light shots per turn (2 drones, 1 team leader at bs4). The benefits are that the team is mobile (relentless jet infantry), has +3 to cover saves so most usually a 2+ unless you're fighting in a desert, and again can JSJ to position the markerlights where they're most useful.
Given the fact I like to take HQ Shas'O and Shas'El with a unit of 3 Elite suits, i happen to usually have the spare elite slot in my army lists when I need a stealth marker team. If Shadowsun or some other HQ with a stealth field generator were allowed to deploy with pathfinders, their utility would suddenly get a huge boost. As it stands the positives and negatives of each markerlight source depend on your own personal style.
Note: I didn't comment on Tetra Scout Speeders because while they're on my ForgeWorld wishlist, i haven't pulled the trigger on ordering them yet. They seem to me to be the MOST efficient points-per-markerlight unit, and with the new disruption pod rules they get the same (or nearly the same) resilience to long range shooting as stealthsuits.
One thing I'd like to say is the fact that BSFs are almost useless on firewarrior teams. The problem is, unless you're shooting at an MSU army, their armor save is still going to be better than their cover they gain. Save yourself the points, on 4 squads that's enough for another upgrade that may be more useful. I'd only take BSFs on units that are going to be firing farther than 36" to see the enemy or with good AP to not allow cover saves.
you are right.
