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Post by: Hercule Pyro
 Zweischneid wrote:GW's latest, shiny Dark Angels Codex is littered with typos too. So that inference would apply equally to them (and virtually every company in this business).
Or every major publishing outlet, too.
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Post by: Pacific
There is a difference between something going to publication in print as a finished product and just a post on the internet as part of the development process that no-one will read again after a few weeks. Obviously, the first instance is a much bigger error.
I think the Boromite looks kind of cool! And glad they didn't just take the 'small, lives in caves' brief as an excuse to wheel out the dwarves again! 
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Post by: Rick_1138
Reduced my pledge to £25 today, not because I think it's going to fail, but the boromite isn't gelling with me, and it's been a while since any wardrone update has appeared and it's the Isorians that I'm most interested in. So may up the pledge after that back to my £190.
I love the universe but its not jumping out at me.
WoC fantasy is actually looking to get more of my cash!
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Post by: Alpharius
Zweischneid wrote:GW's latest, shiny Dark Angels Codex is littered with typos too. So that inference would apply equally to them...
We came to the Gates of Antares to bury GW, not to praise them!
All kidding aside, Ian's got a point...
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Post by: Sidstyler
I kinda like the boromite, honestly.
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Post by: Alpharius
How much did you pledge for, and do you see yourself increasing that pledge once the Wardrones are finally revealed?
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Post by: Kanluwen
I find myself in agreement with Sid here.
The Boromite is a cool lifeform.
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Post by: cerealkiller195
yeah not too sure why people have such hate for boromites.. it was one of the factions i was looking at. The sculpt is different and i like that it also was not just squats/space dwarves. Not that anything is wrong with them but its good someone take a bold step and stick by it.
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Post by: Sidstyler
 Alpharius wrote:
How much did you pledge for, and do you see yourself increasing that pledge once the Wardrones are finally revealed?
This sounds a little confrontational to me, lol. All I said was I kinda liked it and I get asked "HOW MUCH DID YOU PLEDGE THEN?!"
To answer your question, nothing yet, since I can't get it to actually accept my pledge. Keeps rejecting my cards, even after making a phone call bright and early in the morning telling them I was the one using the card and to let the gak go through, and being told it would next time I tried (and it didn't). Apparently they really don't like the fact that it's Kickstarter, or it's in the UK, or both. If they accepted PayPal or something it would be easier, I use PayPal for online purchases all the time with no issue.
When I was trying to pledge though I planned to stick with the £25 level. I can't really afford to do much more than that, and even though I kinda like the boromite, it alone isn't worth dropping £200/$300 like some already have.
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Post by: Alpharius
Sometimes a train is just a train, Sid.
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Post by: Zweischneid
Alpharius wrote:
How much did you pledge for, and do you see yourself increasing that pledge once the Wardrones are finally revealed?
Not for me, but I'll answer it anyways.
For Gates of Antares, I pledged GBP 25,- for a 270 page full colour book + Hansa, which sounds like a good deal.
The second questions is perhaps slighting missing the "secret" of "good" Kickstarters. I certainly never "saw myself increasing my pledge" to the mad levels I did for things like Kingdom Death or DreamForge. But I did.
Those runaway Kickstarters didn't get my money by appealing to my rational side. Quite the opposite, they made me empty my wallet despite the wailing, desperate protests of my rational side. Automatically Appended Next Post: In other news, Rivet Wars is closing in on half a million and just passed the GBP-equivalent of what GoA is asking for
That, at least, should probably dispel the myth that GoA is struggling as a consequence of "no-post-Christmas-money"
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Post by: cincydooley
I'd look less at the typos and more at how poorly it's written as a whole.
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Post by: Dentry
Not to beat a dead horse again, Zweischneid, but I think it's been established that CMON knows how to run a kickstarter. Gates of Antares has been lacking in presentation - won't get into it for fear of mod action, and I'm sure Buzzsaw will write a nice article about it later where we can debate the issue.
---
Moving on. The drone in the Boromite sculpt is probably indicative of what can be expected from the war drones. Even if just a service drone or what have you, it is still a drone and I don't see why the aesthetic would differ too much as to make it unrecognizable as a Gates of Anatares robot.
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
GETTING A MOVE ON! THE BASICS OF MOVEMENT
When it comes to moving troops about the battlefield we will ultimately have to consider vehicles of all kinds, anti-grav troopers, and various kinds of machines and suspensors – but to start with we are only concerned with ordinary troopers – humanoid fighters and WarDrones. Of course, many of the same rules apply to all – so this is a good place to start.
Move distances
Although we will no doubt wish to include some variation of movement rates, to start with all humanoid troopers and WarDrones move at the same pace – namely a standard move of 6”. Because a manoeuvre action is a double move this means troops can often move up to 12” at a time.
Measuring a move
I’m not going to worry too much about defining how to measure moves– just measure from a point along the base edge and make sure no part of the base moves further than the maximum distance permitted.
Moving round other models on the same side
When a model makes a move, its base cannot move over the base area of any other models belonging to different units on the same side. Models that begin their move in the same formation can move through each other as they move.
Moving round enemy models
When a model makes a move its base cannot come within 1" of the bases of any enemy models at any point, unless the two units are engaging in an assault – i.e. hand-to-hand fighting.
Turning
Troopers of the kind we are talking about can pivot freely about their midpoint as required as any time – they can pivot as they move and they can pivot to shoot either during an action or reaction. Pivoting in this way does not count a movement and models that pivot and do not otherwise move are counted as not moving (e.g. for purposes of aiming and shooting team-based and static weapons).
Area Terrain
The playing surface can potentially represent different kinds of environments such as crowded urban areas, dense jungles, glutinous swamps, volatile ash-wastes, and much more besides. These kinds of terrain are defined by a delineated areas – for example an area of strewn boulders, an area of scrubland, an area of woodland or jungle, and so on. Players can agree to delineate these kinds of area terrain in anyway they wish.
Different kinds of terrain have different move penalties associated with them, but to start with just treat movement within area terrain as half pace. All movement either wholly or partially made through terrain is doubled – i.e. 1” counts as 2” and so on. This applies to models that are either wholly or partially within the terrain and for so long as they remain so.
Agility check
The kinds of troops we are talking about can make a check to try and avoid the movement penalty for terrain - the test is made as soon as the unit enters the terrain, and then subsequently if the unit begins its move in the terrain. Make the check for the whole unit against its Agility rating. If successful the penalty is waived for that move – if fail the penalty is applied as described. This means troops can often avoid penalties for terrain, but cannot be certain of doing so.
Moving over obstacles
We often include barriers or obstacles such as a wall, wire fence, brushwood stockade, or barricades built of barrels, boxes, or whatever junk is lying around. Such obstacles make excellent defensible positions. In general, a construction of this kind should be no wider that a model’s base, although we have to make concessions to whatever model scenery is at hand and allow up to double a model’s base width so long at these are pointed out before the game so that players are aware.
Obstacles divide into two types for height – those that are low enough to form a defensive barrier or cover – generally lower than the height of a human sized trooper and therefore low enough to see over – and those that are too high to see over but which are not so tall as to be impassable. Once again, it is necessary for such obstacles to be clearly indicated before the game begins.
Low obstacles form no hindrance to movement. The kinds of troopers we dealing with can move over them with penalty and can draw LOS over them.
High obstructions – these are generally up to about double the height of a man – in these cases a unit can cross so long as –1 the unit is making a manoeuvre action, 2 the unit takes and passes an Agility check when it reaches the barrier, and 3 the unit gives up half of its total move that action (i.e. normally 6”). If the agility test is failed the unit does not cross and remaining movement is lost.
Obstructions taller than this are generally impassable to troopers on foot.
Splitting or Amalgamating a Squad
A unit can amalgamate with another unit by being within 6” of the unit and making a manoeuvre action – the unit can them move 6” so that its troopers form together with the merged unit – the remaining 6” of movement is lost.
A unit can split with a manoeuvre action in the same way – the two parts separating so they are more than 1” apart and moving up to 6”.
Merging units of the same combat status retain that status. If units are different status test courage for the lower status unit (it will be ready as exhausted and broken units cannot manoeuvre) and if it passes the whole unit is now the higher status, if fail the whole unit is the lower status.
On the whole the maximum size a unit can be is 10 models and there is no minimum size. These are placeholder values for now – larger units might need some governing rules to make them less easy to control, but for now it is easiest to set the limit at 10.
REACTION MOVES
The following are moves that can be made as a reaction: dash for cover, go to ground, and withdraw. See Reactions.
Dash for Cover
A dash for cover is a reaction move made in response to an enemy unit shooting from more than 12" away.
A dash to cover is a move at double the unit’s move rate with the objective of reaching cover. As many of the unit’s models as possible must attempt to place themselves in or behind cover or out of LOS. Models already in cover will not move out of it unless they can reach alternative cover when they move. The move cannot be used to initiate an assault, and the unit must remain further than 1" from enemy units at all times as is the usual rule.
Go to Ground
Infantry units can go to ground either during a standard manoeuvre action or as a reaction to being shot at a described in the rules for Reactions. Troops that go to ground drop to the floor and find what shelter they can: folds in the ground, street furniture, discarded or broken equipment, shell holes, and such other features as we care to imagine. This reduces the chances of taking hits from enemy fire, but it also makes it harder to move again – as troopers have to get up first!
A unit making a manoeuvre action can go to ground by surrendering half of its total move distance. So, a unit with a Move rate of 6" can normally make a double speed move of 12" and can move up to 6" and go to ground. Once a unit has gone to ground a marker is placed next to it to show this. This marker remains with the unit so long as it remains gone to ground.
A unit that has gone to ground cannot move except by making a manoeuvre action and surrendering half of its total move distance. The unit ceases to have gone to ground status as soon as it moves. The unit cannot otherwise move whilst it remains gone to ground, and cannot make any reactions that allow it to move other than assault (see below).
Once a unit has gone to ground various modifiers apply when shooting at it as described in the Shooting section. In summary:
Target Gone To Ground = -1 to accuracy
Target Gone to Cover = +1 to resist
Hits from Blast Weapons = Total hits halved rounding down.
An infantry unit can go to ground whilst behind cover if you wish – basically ducking back out of sight or keeping a low profile. A unit in this position would benefit from the shooting modifiers that apply to targets behind cover as well as those applying because it has gone to ground.
If a unit is assaulted whilst gone to ground it loses its gone to ground status and takes part in the assault as normal.
Withdraw
A withdraw move is a unit reaction made when a unit approaches to with two of your own unit’s standard moves (i.e. 12” as standard). Note that a unit cannot make a withdraw reaction if the enemy’s action triggers a firefight or an assault – as these are combat reactions and override all unit reactions. This means that withdraw reactions are only likely in situations where one or other side does not shoot.
A withdraw move is up to two standard moves (12”) and cannot bring the unit closer to the enemy unit it is reacting to at any point – i.e. it has to be away from the triggering unit. The withdrawing unit must end its move at least one standard move further from the trigger unit where possible. Where this is not possible the withdrawing unit must move to as far from the enemy unit as it can.
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Post by: Rick_1138
Hmm, well i think it seems to have gone quiet again, which tbf it did before and then we got wardrone basics, boromite and isorian artwork.
However its been a good 5 days now and nothing much has appeared about the drones and i feel that it needed to keep up the momentum it got when the first drone green appeared etc, they made something like £4k in a couple of days, but now its barely moved £500.
I even lowered my pledge to the £25 mark, i know it makes no odds as i can change it till the 28th but i felt my excitement wavering a bit and i was a bit cold on the boromite (this is simple preference not comment on the sculpt).
Hopefully we will get to see more soon as i would like this to get off the ground, but long quiet periods are worrying.
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Post by: Rolt
Just a heads up, theres a pretty big update about shooting and damage on the Kickstarter, its a bit too much to upload here so I'll just link it.
Here you go: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2037958218/beyond-the-gates-of-antares/posts
The funding has just dropped below the 100K mark, not a good sign.
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Post by: devilution
I reduced my 240 pledge to 25
Rulebook + Exclusive Hansa is actually the sweet spot for this kickstarter. ( imho)
Going to get some Infinity stuff instead ^^
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Post by: Buzzsaw
It's up very slightly (back over 100k), but this is not an auspicious start to the week.
You will note that the loss in pledge value is actually accompanied by a net positive growth in backers, which could be good in the long term: it means that people are staying in, but reducing their pledge levels. People that remain involved (at least enough to keep getting update emails) can potentially lead to a steep increase, if they see value at some point. If the numbers of backers start to drop, then it's bad times.
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Post by: Compel
It's back over 100k again.... Definitely nothing to do with me at all. Nope.
This should be more popular! Especially with the number of people that GW are frakking off.
I tried advertising it at the club tonight, apparantly half the folk there are being made redundant 
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
I begin to wonder that part of the problem with this is it's aiming to be a full scale wargame right from the start rather than begining as a small model count skirmish game
(then growing but with rules always designed for the upscaling)..
Even if you can afford to get a full size army yourself maybe people wonder if they can persuade enough opponants to get one too
it's easier to persuade folk to shell out for 5-10 figures than to shell out for 50-100
(yes there are other issues but I suspect this is one too)
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Post by: cincydooley
Any news on any more sculpts?
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Post by: Lalochezia
Man, so much nicer from the outside looking in. 
Just thought I'd stop by and say that I like Rick Priestly. I think this game looks neat, I pledged, I hope it succeeds.
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Post by: Ian Sturrock
 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:I begin to wonder that part of the problem with this is it's aiming to be a full scale wargame right from the start rather than begining as a small model count skirmish game
(then growing but with rules always designed for the upscaling)..
Even if you can afford to get a full size army yourself maybe people wonder if they can persuade enough opponants to get one too
it's easier to persuade folk to shell out for 5-10 figures than to shell out for 50-100
(yes there are other issues but I suspect this is one too)
That was probably the biggest barrier to me from the start. I would have been in for something simple, easy to play, elegant, and balanced -- Necromunda Pt II maybe.
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Post by: Rolt
Update: Wardrones Part 2
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Post by: catharsix
 Rolt wrote:Update: Wardrones Part 2
...new pics of Drone hip & legs...
Looking interesting, but we still only have WIP shots of maybe 1/2 or a single model, and one other finished green (Hansa). All after about 2 months of build-up!
I hope that the Dark Space Corp people are reading this thread, and trying to take the criticisms to heart. They should have had several greens ready the day the Kickstarter began. This probably sounds like a broken record, but in light of the fact that people have been saying it so much, for many weeks, and DSC STILL hasn't produced more than a single finished green to show us makes me think that they aren't really listening. And if they don't do SOMETHING, they're not going to turn this thing around. The ship's going to be taking on water soon, and they need to deal with that.
-C6
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Post by: Kilkrazy
I have to say I am not particularly interested in how a sculptor goes about building a model.
I acknowledge and admire the skilled craftsmanship, but it just isn't as interesting as concept sketches and finished greens.
From the viewpoint of a potential buyer, I mean.
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Post by: Pacific
Cool, rear-articulation legs. Always makes me think of ED209 and stop-gap animation
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Post by: kronk
 Pacific wrote:Cool, rear-articulation legs. Always makes me think of ED209 and stop-gap animation
And that horrible Charlie Sheen movie where the aliens were using global warming to change Earth's climate.
Rick Priestley did an interview on 40k Radio that posted last night and talks about how they are developing it, goes into some of the back ground, and so on. I have to admit that the got me interested in the concept. I have no intention of backing this kickstarter, though. I might pick up the BRB if/when it comes out just to flip through it.
linky to 40k Radio interview
It's towards the end, if you want to fast forward to it.
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Post by: Zweischneid
 kronk wrote:
Rick Priestley did an interview on 40k Radio that posted last night and talks about how they are developing it, goes into some of the back ground, and so on. I have to admit that the got me interested in the concept. I have no intention of backing this kickstarter, though. I might pick up the BRB if/when it comes out just to flip through it.
To be fair, GBP 25,- for a 270 page full-colour rulebook + Hansa is a sweet deal every way you look at it (assuming it funds).
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Post by: Compel
And if it doesn't fund, you don't lose any money, so it doesn't matter
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Post by: Azazelx
I'll probably go in for the rulebook + hansa only if it looks like it'll find at the last minute, simply because I don't want to give out my CC details unnecessarily. (and it doesn't look like it'll happen... so...)
:/
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Post by: plastictrees
While I'll be one of the first people to say that CAD sculpting lacks soul and is often used inexpertly, when it comes to sculpting symmetrical robot frames use freaking CAD.
Especially when the whole point of those robots is to be modular and geared for different roles.
This is like watching someone hand writing a thousand form letters. Yes that's the best simile I could come up with. I was working with telegrams or wooden cars but none of it was coming together.
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Post by: Azazelx
While there may be some exceptions, and I still have a soft spot for these guys, it's a nostalgia-tinged spot seen through rose-tinted goggles. I largely agree with you - and especially on the drones if they're going to be multipart plastic...
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Post by: angryboy2k
I think we're seeing a prototype that'll probably end up cast in metal as one of the alternative drones. The plastic drones will likely be done in CAD based on this design.
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Post by: Sikil
Either way I hope the models will be released even if hte KS fails. I love the Hansa, and realy like how the drone is developing!
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Post by: tvih
 Sikil wrote:Either way I hope the models will be released even if hte KS fails.
As much as it may seem defeatist, I think there's not much of a chance of actually meeting the £300k goal at this point. The number of backers hasn't gone up by even 100 in the 9 days that I've followed this. In fact it's been more like 70 or so. So less than 10 backers per day, while we'd still need almost 2000 more with the average amount of £ per pledge so far. So we'd need not just 10, but 100 new pledges per day. And I just don't see how that's gonna suddenly happen :(
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Post by: Mr. Burning
For good or ill previous kickstarters have shown what people will stump up cash for.
A real, physical, product with lots of options already in place for pledgers to aim for, even just images of cgi sculpts or representative artwork.
Even stretch goals have something to show in the form of greens, digital sculpts or prototypes.
BGoA would have been better served with having the rules finished and basic factions ready to go, characters from each faction and a few figure choices to go with.
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Post by: Rolt
Update: Rulebook Outline
Good afternoon everyone and a very warm welcome to our newer backers!
Today we finally have the outline rulebook for you to play with - Hurrah! you can get it here
This is still a work in progress document, we've not gone to town making it look like a finished rulebook as it's not one, so do try not to be overly critical at this stage. We're very much wanting you guys to be involved in the development and though this is a very early stage to be releasing anything we're confident you'll embrace the challenge! We're getting some great feedback on how it plays so if as many of you as possible start playing games with your friends, we'll both get backers on board and of course get more feedback!
Head over to the forums to discuss
Heres the link for the rulebook: http://www.darkspacecorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Beyond-the-Gates-of-Antares-Outline-Rulebook.pdf
Enjoy.
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Post by: Alpharius
The Wardrones look to be heading more towards 'break' than "make"...
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Post by: Sikil
Alpharius wrote:The Wardrones look to be heading more towards 'break' than "make"...
Huh?
You think that the wardrones will break the endeavour?
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Post by: Rolt
In all fairness Alp the wardrone is only in its underpinning stage, no real details yet, but I do agree with you it's not exactly hitting "groundbreaking" miniature territory yet, its design doesn't look like anything special so far.
As bad as it is I'm starting to agree with others that the GoA team aren't even trying to make this kickstarter succeed, at least not as hard as they should. Were over the half-way mark now with the pelages barely moving and they are still just throwing up the odd one a day update and the KS page itself is still bare overall despite a month's work, you would've thought by now they would be throwing up everything and anything (rough sketches, concepts, preliminary ideas, unit info and stats, fluff) just to keep people interested at this point. Instead it's the usual "head over to the forums" and "help us spread the word", seriously spread the word about what?, how am I supposed to advertise this project to other people when I barely know anything? Not to mention the obvious that any good/vital information thats on the forums should be on the KS page as well, you shouldn't need to find it on the forums, I don't get why they don't understand that.
Well anyway, I best tone it down before I go on a real rant, we still have 22days left, all the time in the world. 
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Post by: Pacific
Sikil wrote:Either way I hope the models will be released even if hte KS fails. I love the Hansa, and realy like how the drone is developing!
I think Rick stated that even if the Kickstarter fails the game is still going to be released, as they have put too much work in for it to come to nothing.
Has anyone downloaded the rules yet and given them a try?
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Post by: Fenrir Kitsune
Was tempted by this at the beginning, but theres just no real incentive to get into it at the moment.
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Post by: Alpharius
Sikil wrote: Alpharius wrote:The Wardrones look to be heading more towards 'break' than "make"...
Huh?
You think that the wardrones will break the endeavour?
If they suck?
Yes, I do!
Rolt wrote:In all fairness Alp the wardrone is only in its underpinning stage, no real details yet, but I do agree with you it's not exactly hitting "groundbreaking" miniature territory yet, its design doesn't look like anything special so far.
As bad as it is I'm starting to agree with others that the GoA team aren't even trying to make this kickstarter succeed, at least not as hard as they should. Were over the half-way mark now with the pelages barely moving and they are still just throwing up the odd one a day update and the KS page itself is still bare overall despite a month's work, you would've thought by now they would be throwing up everything and anything (rough sketches, concepts, preliminary ideas, unit info and stats, fluff) just to keep people interested at this point. Instead it's the usual "head over to the forums" and "help us spread the word", seriously spread the word about what?, how am I supposed to advertise this project to other people when I barely know anything? Not to mention the obvious that any good/vital information thats on the forums should be on the KS page as well, you shouldn't need to find it on the forums, I don't get why they don't understand that.
Well anyway, I best tone it down before I go on a real rant, we still have 22days left, all the time in the world.
Agreed - this one has become... odd.
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Post by: Eggs
Well I just chucked £125 at it - I'm liking the look of the small amount of artwork and minis that there is, and if it doesn't happen, I'll spend the money on Warmachine.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Pacific wrote: Sikil wrote:Either way I hope the models will be released even if hte KS fails. I love the Hansa, and realy like how the drone is developing!
I think Rick stated that even if the Kickstarter fails the game is still going to be released, as they have put too much work in for it to come to nothing.
Then why the hell can't they show that work now? Aren't potential customers crying out for examples of real product? Am I naive or stupid, or is there in fact nothing substantial to show?
Someone above said there are two possibilities: the Kickstarter will succeed and you will get a rulebook for your £25, or, the Kickstarter will fail and your pledge won't vest.
Actually there is a third possibility, that the Kickstarter will vest and you will pay £25, but the GoA group will fail to produce a rulebook.
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Post by: kenshin620
Kilkrazy wrote: Pacific wrote: Sikil wrote:Either way I hope the models will be released even if hte KS fails. I love the Hansa, and realy like how the drone is developing!
I think Rick stated that even if the Kickstarter fails the game is still going to be released, as they have put too much work in for it to come to nothing.
Then why the hell can't they show that work now? Aren't potential customers crying out for examples of real product? Am I naive or stupid, or is there in fact nothing substantial to show?
Someone above said there are two possibilities: the Kickstarter will succeed and you will get a rulebook for your £25, or, the Kickstarter will fail and your pledge won't vest.
Actually there is a third possibility, that the Kickstarter will vest and you will pay £25, but the GoA group will fail to produce a rulebook.
Maybe its that British Miniature Making Mentality? "Its done when its done" kind of thing. Not saying its a BAD way to do miniatures, Perry and Victrix have excellent models that take half to a year or more to actually make. They usually only update their plastic stuff every 3-5 months if not longer.
Thats all fine and dandy when you have 6-12 or so months to show a green and a few more months to actually release it
But on a timed 30-60 day Kickstarter? Might not want to go in without a decent ground work done before hand
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Post by: Azazelx
I'm pretty sure that Mike McVey is British. Matt Sprange (Mongoose) and Stuart (Studio Miniatures) are also from the UK. So is Mantic, for that matter.
Probably time to jump off that particular bandwagon and put it down to the (in)competence, styles and scope of different individuals rather than a cultural thing.
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Post by: warboss
I'm starting to think that they just expected the tabletop minis version of Gabe Newell and his Valve PC game kickstarter where people would just throw money at a known figure and company based largely on reputation alone with maybe just a few ideas and a single logo to accompany that.
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Post by: Azazelx
Well, they got over US$100,000 based on that. The problem is they're asking for close to half a million...
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Post by: Dark Space Corp
Rolt wrote:Update: Rulebook Outline
Good afternoon everyone and a very warm welcome to our newer backers!
Today we finally have the outline rulebook for you to play with - Hurrah! you can get it here
This is still a work in progress document, we've not gone to town making it look like a finished rulebook as it's not one, so do try not to be overly critical at this stage. We're very much wanting you guys to be involved in the development and though this is a very early stage to be releasing anything we're confident you'll embrace the challenge! We're getting some great feedback on how it plays so if as many of you as possible start playing games with your friends, we'll both get backers on board and of course get more feedback!
Head over to the forums to discuss
Heres the link for the rulebook: http://www.darkspacecorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Beyond-the-Gates-of-Antares-Outline-Rulebook.pdf
Enjoy.
Thank you for posting that up, as mentioned we've got the rules outline up on PDF now and more work is underway. Bear with us.
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Post by: NAVARRO
 kenshin620 wrote:
Maybe its that British Miniature Making Mentality? "Its done when its done" kind of thing.
Maybe you should try to sober up before posting.
Totally ridiculous comment...
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Let's not get too wound up about it.
Perry make a set and sell it. They don't make a Kickstarter and say they will make a set in the future. The same for practically all other makers I know of, from Essex to NavWar to Corvus Belli to Minifigs.
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Post by: Rolt
 Dark Space Corp wrote:
Thank you for posting that up, as mentioned we've got the rules outline up on PDF now and more work is underway. Bear with us.
Yeah no problem DSC I'll keep posting the news, you just keep it coming.
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Post by: NAVARRO
 Kilkrazy wrote:Let's not get too wound up about it.
Perry make a set and sell it. They don't make a Kickstarter and say they will make a set in the future. The same for practically all other makers I know of, from Essex to NavWar to Corvus Belli to Minifigs.
I'm not
It's quite annoying the short memories some seem to have, I mean under just a year ago, when there was no KS's athletes, every company had a similar visibility... now just because some UK (or whatever country) Kickstarters are not visible = UK miniatures producers are lazy 
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Post by: recruittons
 NAVARRO wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:Let's not get too wound up about it.
Perry make a set and sell it. They don't make a Kickstarter and say they will make a set in the future. The same for practically all other makers I know of, from Essex to NavWar to Corvus Belli to Minifigs.
I'm not
It's quite annoying the short memories some seem to have, I mean under just a year ago, when there was no KS's athletes, every company had a similar visibility... now just because some UK (or whatever country) Kickstarters are not visible = UK miniatures producers are lazy
I got the impression he was speaking more to the fact that UK producers were perfectionists and quality driven. Not so much that they don't do the work, but that they only accept the best and don't worry about volume.
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Post by: plastictrees
It sounded like they received some funding at some point after the KS started?
I'm assuming that money would be spent in different ways if they were pushing to fund the KS than if they were just producing their game outside that space.
Presumably we are seeing that decision being made as we speak.
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Post by: Compel
Wasn't there some mentioning that after the kickstarter began, they were able to take some printouts to the bank and say, "hey, look, we've got an idea and an already interested customer base, give us a loan?"
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Post by: kenshin620
 recruittons wrote: NAVARRO wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:Let's not get too wound up about it. Perry make a set and sell it. They don't make a Kickstarter and say they will make a set in the future. The same for practically all other makers I know of, from Essex to NavWar to Corvus Belli to Minifigs.
I'm not It's quite annoying the short memories some seem to have, I mean under just a year ago, when there was no KS's athletes, every company had a similar visibility... now just because some UK (or whatever country) Kickstarters are not visible = UK miniatures producers are lazy
I got the impression he was speaking more to the fact that UK producers were perfectionists and quality driven. Not so much that they don't do the work, but that they only accept the best and don't worry about volume.
Thanks for explaining me perfectly!  I mention it is not a bad thing in my original post. I have great respect for the venerable british model makers, but in a short time frame of 2 months then the quality over speed approach wont do as well if they havent started yet The Hansa took about 2 or so weeks right? That was nearly 1/4 of the campaign time that could have been avoided if they moved the timetables of their development a few weeks ahead
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Post by: Mr. Burning
 Compel wrote:Wasn't there some mentioning that after the kickstarter began, they were able to take some printouts to the bank and say, "hey, look, we've got an idea and an already interested customer base, give us a loan?"
Indeed.
They took a print out of an idea gleaned by committee as their business plan, when asked for figures the group drip fed illustrations of the numbers one to ten.
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Post by: catharsix
kenshin620 wrote:
The Hansa took about 2 or so weeks right? That was nearly 1/4 of the campaign time that could have been avoided if they moved the timetables of their development a few weeks ahead
Exactly.
They should have had a couple of greens ready to go on day 1 of the KS.
Failing that, they should have produced a few quickly, within the first couple weeks. (which they didn't)
Failing that, they should have produced some greens within the next weeks. (which they also didn't - we still have 1.25 greens...)
Failing that...
...the KS is probably going to fail.
Honestly, do they * want* to fail? Is there something else going on that we're not privy to? (like this idea of taking proof of the KS to a bank for a more traditional loan to capitalize their project).
-C6
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Post by: Dentry
 catharsix wrote:Honestly, do they * want* to fail? Is there something else going on that we're not privy to? (like this idea of taking proof of the KS to a bank for a more traditional loan to capitalize their project).
Maybe. But it would be taken to investors, not necessarily a bank.
And is anyone else seeing this as the green comes together?
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Post by: Azazelx
catharsix wrote:
Honestly, do they * want* to fail? Is there something else going on that we're not privy to? (like this idea of taking proof of the KS to a bank for a more traditional loan to capitalize their project).
I've been wondering about that myself. It just seems to have been inordinately badly run, and not at all what would be expected with Stallard involved.
 Dentry wrote:
And is anyone else seeing this as the green comes together?
Hah! I wish!
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Post by: NAVARRO
kenshin620 wrote: recruittons wrote: NAVARRO wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:Let's not get too wound up about it.
Perry make a set and sell it. They don't make a Kickstarter and say they will make a set in the future. The same for practically all other makers I know of, from Essex to NavWar to Corvus Belli to Minifigs.
I'm not
It's quite annoying the short memories some seem to have, I mean under just a year ago, when there was no KS's athletes, every company had a similar visibility... now just because some UK (or whatever country) Kickstarters are not visible = UK miniatures producers are lazy
I got the impression he was speaking more to the fact that UK producers were perfectionists and quality driven. Not so much that they don't do the work, but that they only accept the best and don't worry about volume.
Thanks for explaining me perfectly!
I mention it is not a bad thing in my original post. I have great respect for the venerable british model makers, but in a short time frame of 2 months then the quality over speed approach wont do as well if they havent started yet
The Hansa took about 2 or so weeks right? That was nearly 1/4 of the campaign time that could have been avoided if they moved the timetables of their development a few weeks ahead
With all due respect you cannot extrapolate something like this KS to make any kind of conclusion regarding UK Producers behaviors, trends etc.... its one project and thats about it.
Speaking of this project I have already posted here my opinion...
Funny though unlike all the other 99% of uk producers that put their own money on the line and actually produce things this project is even less likely be a good example of anything.
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Post by: Cosmic_Seth
Failing that...
...the KS is probably going to fail.
Honestly, do they *want* to fail?
No, of course not. They've been trying very hard to address all of the criticism. They recently released a pre-alpha rule book, screen shots of the MMO aspect of the game, and the wardrone + boromite. All released quicker than they wanted (with less player input than originally intended).
The idea behind the kickstarter was to have player input in the beginning for all the sculpts, rule book, and how/looks of the MMO options. Maybe that was a bad idea, but I feel it is a good one. It may not pan out in a lot of people's minds, but it is not designed by committee, or by majority; all ideas do go through an editorial process to make sure the various ideas do fit the overall theme. With that said, the player based already had a large impact, not by watering down concepts, but by refining them. People said bald is beautiful, and bam! Hansa is bald. There was large talk on what hard-science is and it was hammered out.
Now the argument that the majority of the money being pledge for models is a false one; first gen models for any game systems always tend to be lacking, in terms of art direction, theme, and production values. A lot of kickstarter models that have come out have been ending up as poor quality, which is what you get when a game is only support by 20-100K; cheap models. (Kingdom Death is the exception; those are amazing!) Dark Space Corp is being honest on how much it costs to start a company and a game from the ground up.
What you are paying for is for player input (only those that pledge can have input after kickstarter), a dynamic online universe with built in protections from false battle reports, an always-online rulebook updated daily, full smart phone/tablet support for all files on android/apple, to play the game before anyone else, and the models. If all that one cares about is models, and not the other parts of this game; then yes don't pledge. The kickstarter will fail if most gamers want only new models. I hope that is not the case, and we still have a lot of time to see and find out.
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Post by: Perkustin
They should have had a kickstarter for a fancy forum or something, get the buzz going, spend six months or so developing the game on the forum. Instead we have the Gatecrash..... I actually feel really sorry for them.
This seems pretty similar to the infamous Black Isle studios kickstarter.
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Post by: Vertrucio
Nah, keep in mind that Black Isle by now is just an empty shell company, that was just an empty money grab. This is actually a real effort.
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Post by: Rolt
Update: Boromite Overseer Diorama - Final Sculpt by Wojtek
evening everyone!
We're closing in on our next Gobal Club Stretch Goal with only 20k points to go - this one will give every backer at Dark Energy, 10 more credits in their box! check it out here
Tonight we have the final part of the Boromite Overseer for you, nice.
Enjoy.
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Post by: Pacific
That actually looks pretty cool, and I think really improved a lot from the initial sculpt (the little accessories help a lot). Will be interesting to see what colour combinations people come up with, or what is the official one for that matter.
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Post by: devilution
It's not looking bright for this kickstarter :( I expected so much more from this.
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Post by: legoburner
Pacific wrote:That actually looks pretty cool, and I think really improved a lot from the initial sculpt (the little accessories help a lot). Will be interesting to see what colour combinations people come up with, or what is the official one for that matter.
If somebody took the image, cropped it and uploaded it to dakka, they could put it into our Army Painter and try it out for themselves, using whatever colours they can think of. I'm not a big enough fan of the model to spend the time doing that myself, but if someone reading this wants to try, I'd be very interested in seeing the results. The army painter works well with unpainted models, so it would have decent results.
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Post by: Azazelx
 Perkustin wrote:They should have had a kickstarter for a fancy forum or something, get the buzz going, spend six months or so developing the game on the forum. Instead we have the Gatecrash..... I actually feel really sorry for them.
This seems pretty similar to the infamous Black Isle studios kickstarter.
If they wanted one hundred thousand pounds (roughly US$157k) for a rulebook (and an exclusive figure) they probably would have gotten it. All those other small things, like a US shell company so they could use Amazon payments and hold the KS in US$ would also have helped a great deal. Automatically Appended Next Post: A decent figure. I don't personally like the aesthetic, but I appreciate the quality of the sculpting.
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Post by: Melcavuk
Most recent update is now up, Freeborn sculpt:
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Post by: Dentry
I like what I can see of the model.
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Post by: Melcavuk
Not sure if it was my eyes originally but my focus on the first image seemed off so much so that at a glance it looked like a guy with a huge beard (I clearly assumed dwarf)
When I managed to focus however I liked what I saw.
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Post by: Vaktathi
I'm liking him, if the rest of the Freeborn turn out as well, they'll be very cool looking indeed.
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Post by: Dentry
 Melcavuk wrote:Not sure if it was my eyes originally but my focus on the first image seemed off so much so that at a glance it looked like a guy with a huge beard (I clearly assumed dwarf)
When I managed to focus however I liked what I saw.
The armband threw me off. Couldn't figure out if he was barechested or wearing a cuirass.
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Post by: Azazelx
Nice model (I would buy it) but it's a pretty generic techno-barbarian. It's the perfect example of the kind of thing they should have had a half-dozen of, ready to show/go on day 1.
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Post by: catharsix
 Azazelx wrote:Nice model (I would buy it) but it's a pretty generic techno-barbarian. It's the perfect example of the kind of thing they should have had a half-dozen of, ready to show/go on day 1.
EXACTLY. This is especially true since amateur folks here on Dakka (& elsewhere) churn out superior sculpts in much shorter periods of time.
And as for this new green (or grey?) goes, it's a step in the right direction, but IMO, kinda meh. But I'm not a big fan of REDNECKS IIINN N SSSPAAAAACCCEEE!!!!! so maybe it's just me.
-C6
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Post by: NAVARRO
Nope another uninspiring sculpt I would not buy this and if it was a gift I would not paint it... its just not up to today's modelling levels, so many cool models are released monthly that this is just plain boring by comparison ( and not that well sculpted).
One of those minis that will not survive more than 5 minutes in my memory, it's just so damn generic and bland.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
If you want to publish a printed rulebook it is quite easy and cheap to do so via Lulu. The main drawback being you can't do hardback.
http://www.lulu.com/gb/en
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Post by: cerealkiller195
i feel the gun needs a little work not sure why that random odd detail is bothering me. The gun looks like it needs a little more work though.
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Post by: angryboy2k
The right arm/shoulder is all wrong. The way it connects to the body is wrong. The angles of the elbow and wrist are wrong. It needs fixing. Kev White wouldn't have made a mess of that.
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Post by: Commander Cain
Nice sculpt I guess. Just a bit dull for my tastes. If only he looked anything like the concept art as well, I would be interested if they actually looked like that!
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Post by: Marrak
NAVARRO wrote:Nope another uninspiring sculpt I would not buy this and if it was a gift I would not paint it... its just not up to today's modelling levels, so many cool models are released monthly that this is just plain boring by comparison ( and not that well sculpted).
One of those minis that will not survive more than 5 minutes in my memory, it's just so damn generic and bland.
This. I'm sorry to say but each sculpt past Hansa has left me more and more uninspired to give this game anything. :/ There's nothing at all catchy about this latest one, and the details don't feel up to par; I'm completely willing to admit that may be due to a gray model on a background, with some details not seen... but that shouldn't be what we're being shown.
So far, the only thing that has my interest is the longcoat trooper artwork. But I'm certainly not willing to put money down yet given my finances atm.
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Post by: recruittons
I wish the proportions were more accurately portrayed. I think the biggest failing, to me, is that he isn't proportioned the way the concept piece is. He's too squat and wide, not the muscular, tall figure in the artwork. If he wasn't built like a GW Space Marine, he would be more impressive. Also, the fur cloak is just... it feels very out of place. Like he's a space viking.
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Post by: Azazelx
NAVARRO wrote:Nope another uninspiring sculpt I would not buy this and if it was a gift I would not paint it... its just not up to today's modelling levels, so many cool models are released monthly that this is just plain boring by comparison ( and not that well sculpted).
One of those minis that will not survive more than 5 minutes in my memory, it's just so damn generic and bland.
I actually think it's somewhat cool and would paint it. It's the sort of "space adventurers" kinda thing that I'd buy off Hasslefree's website. The issue for me is that it doesn't make me want to pledge money for the GoA project. Hansa is the same way for me, really. It really needs at least one faction with a strong - dare I say, armoured aesthetic. Think of Eldar, Dark Eldar, Space Marines, Tau.
There is something ...odd about the gun though, and he doesn't really seem that connected to the concept art. It's like a Catachan killed the guy in the concept art and dressed up in his gear...
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Post by: Agamemnon2
The fur cloak just ruins the vibe for me. They were going for "rag-tag nomad" and ended up with "techno viking". He looks like a Wolf Scout.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
The green is not nearly as good as the concept sketch. He has changed to "heroic" proportions, and the gun has become a kind of knock-off artisan bolt pistol.
To be fair, these are aesthetic considerations, but clearly there has been a change of aesthetic from the original art, which means it becomes difficult to trust any concept sketches.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Kilkrazy wrote:The green is not nearly as good as the concept sketch. He has changed to "heroic" proportions, and the gun has become a kind of knock-off artisan bolt pistol.
I really hope that's not even intended to be based on that concept art, because if so, it's a hilariously bad match in terms of style and proportion
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
To be honest, it looks like a fantasy mini that has been quickly upgraded to SF.
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Post by: Compel
I wouldn't be surprised it if was, Raging Heroes style... (Or was it Avatars of War?)
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Post by: Pacific
Yes I think he may have worked better without the cloak (and beard? makes him look a bit Space-Wolf-ish). So, have to be honest not my favourite looking sculpt so far, but think there is definitely potential in the concept.
The accessories look nice though, and the plastic-type looking armour on the leg does I think just do enough to give it a sci-fi vibe.
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Post by: Compel
They were probably going for a Firefly vibe but went too far...
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Post by: DaveC
I see the project is still gaining backers but losing money. I dropped my Early Feeder pledge to Inflationary Epoch yesterday as I'm just not seeing anything to make Feeder worthwhile and I need to allocate a chunk of money to an upcoming KS so I'm happy to back at £27 but that's as far as I'll go now. It took several hours for my Early slot to be picked up by someone else - that tells it's own tale.
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Post by: 02Laney
I like the miniatures shown so far (including the finished Boromite), but they need to go away, re-think and come back with more finished material to show. I dropped out around a week ago and very little has changed (Darklands has got my money instead and Warzone Resurrection will likely get any spare if/when it comes out).
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Post by: Buzzsaw
So... several of the factions of Beyond are characterized by reliance on the nanotech-Godmachine and are super, almost incomprehensibly advanced, right? Those factions are some of the few truly innovative ideas for this campaign, right?
Why are the previewed minis all so damn generic then?
In fairness it's unlikely to matter at this point: Beyond is now firmly in the zone of needing to make 10,000+ GBP every day for the remainder of the campaign to fund. It simply doesn't seem that there is material there to actually motivate those kinds of pledges.
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Post by: Zweischneid
 Buzzsaw wrote:So... several of the factions of Beyond are characterized by reliance on the nanotech-Godmachine and are super, almost incomprehensibly advanced, right? Those factions are some of the few truly innovative ideas for this campaign, right?
Why are the previewed minis all so damn generic then?
Not just the miniatures. There is literally nothing in the previewed game-rules that would roll off that "central" part of the game's background. Nothing to indicate how all that super-interconnected nano-wizardry would actually affect the gameplay.
Which is, IMO, more than odd. Given how important it appears to be, I was expecting it to take on a central role in the game (to my limited game-designer creativity, something in the vein of magic/psy/equivalent-for-a-tech-game, just more brilliant). It just never came up.
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Post by: Rolt
Update: Hansa Painting Part 1 - By Golem Painting Studios
hello everyone!
We're in touching distance on our next stretch goal for the Global Club rewards! Join in if you haven't already, everyone gets to benefit!
Golem have finally got their hands on Hansa and have started sending us updates on where he's at, here's stage 1
Also I don't know if anyone noticed this on the KS frontpage, look at the guy on the left:
Enjoy.
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Post by: Bulldogging
Guy on the left looks very nice, I didn't care much for that factions art until now.
Still a big fan of the Freeborn though, and looking forward to seeing the finished paint job on Hansa.
I'm not sure how they can pull in more backers right now.
$150kish dollars is an impressive amount for almost nothing but the names backing it though.
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Post by: cincydooley
Call me crazy but I can't help but think now that Hansa is primed he's even less impressive....
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Post by: Bulldogging
I personally love the Hansa miniature.
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Post by: Azazelx
 cincydooley wrote:Call me crazy but I can't help but think now that Hansa is primed he's even less impressive....
You can't honestly judge figures based on the WIP stages of a paintjob.
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Post by: Zweischneid
Yeah. I wouldn't judge the paint job until its done.
That said, showing various work-in-progress for having a mini painted (for a company only subcontracted and not really related to the KS on top) feels a bit odd.
There're painter blogs out there who throw up a fully (sometimes professionally) painted mini every day without even running a KS, just cause they like to show off their minis.
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Post by: Azazelx
I think it's a matter of wanting to show some content (any content) at this stage...
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Post by: Rolt
Update: Global Club Stretch Goal - 750,000 pts - ACHIEVED!
WOOT! we've nailed the next stretch goal in our global club rewards! this one give all those backers at Dark Energy another 10 credits in their box, nice! The next goal gives 20 more credits to our feeder box, JOIN IN!
Enjoy.
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Post by: Buzzsaw
Zweischneid wrote:Yeah. I wouldn't judge the paint job until its done.
That said, showing various work-in-progress for having a mini painted (for a company only subcontracted and not really related to the KS on top) feels a bit odd.
There're painter blogs out there who throw up a fully (sometimes professionally) painted mini every day without even running a KS, just cause they like to show off their minis.
Why exactly are they showing the painted miniature? Is that a reward at some level or something? It just seems like... filler.
This is day 40(!), and things are just still so... confusing. Automatically Appended Next Post: Rolt wrote:Update: Global Club Stretch Goal - 750,000 pts - ACHIEVED!
WOOT! we've nailed the next stretch goal in our global club rewards! this one give all those backers at Dark Energy another 10 credits in their box, nice! The next goal gives 20 more credits to our feeder box, JOIN IN!
Enjoy.
A perfect example of my point above: what?
Seriously, how big is this increase in terms of models? The example of the Isoran squad (under the artwork of the two guys) is 240 points for 11 models. Same with the example Freebooter squad. So... what good is 10 credits? What does that actually translate into?
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Post by: Zweischneid
Buzzsaw wrote:
A perfect example of my point above: what?
Seriously, how big is this increase in terms of models? The example of the Isoran squad (under the artwork of the two guys) is 240 points for 11 models. Same with the example Freebooter squad. So... what good is 10 credits? What does that actually translate into?
Dunno. I think the idea of getting in some "stretch goals" through their "club scheme" (including the "Ronin" club-of-1) before they actually hit the goal is one of the better changes they made.
The credit system is Fubar though, I admit. But in absence of actual miniatures to add, it's the next best thing I guess.
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Post by: Sidstyler
The Freeborn guy has gigantic feet when compared to Hansa. Is that bothering anyone else or just me?
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Post by: krazynadechukr
 Sidstyler wrote:The Freeborn guy has gigantic feet when compared to Hansa. Is that bothering anyone else or just me?
Dont feel inadequate.....
Space Wolves, yeah!
And I knew I saw hansa in mini form before.....
4
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Post by: PhantomViper
So they took the only slightly interesting miniature concept and turned him into a Space Wolf?!
Was this decided by the "fans" or what? I've never seen a miniature that looked so little like the concept art that was supposed to inspire it...
Oh well, entering the realm of 10k a day for the minimal pledge required to make this a success means that we can probably say that GoA = DoA... At least this way I won't have anything to distract my walled from the glory of Cyriss!
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Post by: cerealkiller195
i think its going to be made regardless but probably not realized all at once. Having another kick starter maybe down the line with all that they have done looks more realistic. There is obviously interest in it.
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Post by: cincydooley
Azazelx wrote: cincydooley wrote:Call me crazy but I can't help but think now that Hansa is primed he's even less impressive....
You can't honestly judge figures based on the WIP stages of a paintjob.
Forget the paint job. I was talking about the primed version. In Green form he looked more detailed. Either there's way too much primer on this dude (which I doubt based on the ability I'd of the folks at Golem) or the model is simply mediocre. He's very static. Very. I dunno. I'm just left wanting.
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Post by: Grot 6
Wouldn't mind seeing a squad shot or something other then one miniature in over 40 days.
At this point, they should be at greens for each faction, and progress work on rules.
The painting thing is too little, too late.
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Post by: Breotan
This whole thing was too little too late on day one.
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Post by: PsychoticStorm
I would really wish people would stop seeing GW everywhere, hansa is copying telion really? a generic at rest pose? and Hansa has proper trigger finger pose for at rest.
A technobarbarian looking like spacewoulf? sorry all technobarbaria tropes look roughly the same, as one would expect to see a barbarian with a few high tech stuff on it.
Personally I do not like the technobarbarian trope as a whole and would like to see a harder sci fi than that, or if the trope should be used be used in a more hard sci fi way than the easy way of having a stereotypical barbarian with high tech things strapped on him.
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Post by: kenshin620
Techno Barbarian would look pretty cool in a Nordian Berserker regiment, but not sure if that was what they were aiming for
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Post by: Chronepsis
The not space wolf mini is horrible... Not even somewhat similar to the art.
Doesn't GW have copyright for the celebratory firing pose?
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Post by: Rolt
Update: Factions In-depth & Wiki!
Happy Sunday all!
A number of our fantastic backers have been building a Wiki, with all the information we've put out through our updates and some of the excellent work that's been contributed on our forums, including: new species ideas, our current guilds, fan-tech and fan fiction! Brilliant work guys! You can find it in the main menu on our website too.
Today's update is a more in-depth look at each faction, through the medium of video, enjoy:
The video is here: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2037958218/beyond-the-gates-of-antares/posts
So there you have it, another riveting update, tons of new stuff shown, now get pledging!
P.s. Sorry for not embedding the video I'm not sure how to with vimeo, silly hipster stuff.
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Post by: cincydooley
Śo it sounds like the community has done a ton mor than the actual owners of the KS. Facepalm.
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Post by: Pacific
Rolt wrote:P.s. Sorry for not embedding the video I'm not sure how to with vimeo, silly hipster stuff.
That's OK, the ability to embed videos here is known only to a select few. Known as 'The Quadrangle', their identity is known only to themselves, and should any reveal the secrets of video embedding, they are immediately hunted down and murdered most horribly by the hands of the other members.
Usually when one of the Quadrangle is approaching death, they will search for another to whom to pass on their secrets. The exact method of the choosing of the new members is not known, but it is thought that only those with a knowledge of the arcane and forbidden arts are likely to be selected. At times they are witnessed, wandering through the streets, their faces hidden by black cowls, their coming heralded by the passing of crows.
So, as a result not many videos get posted on Dakka.
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Post by: warboss
With youtube you need to use the full url address with the youtube dakka tags and not the shortened one offered... don't know about vimeo.
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Post by: Albino Squirrel
I did a quick solo playtest game using the outline rulebook. You can read the battle report and my observations on my blog:
http://www.adventuresinminiaturegaming.blogspot.com/2013/02/beyond-gates-of-antares-outline-rules.html
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Post by: Rolt
Update: Hansa Painting Part 2 & Q&A Volume 6
hey everybody
Couple of updates for you today, first up our final Q&A volume which covers all kinds of exciting information about WarDrones, NuSims, initial release and more!
The video is here: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2037958218/beyond-the-gates-of-antares/posts/403646
Our other update today is more progress by Golem on Hansa, which we rather like very much oh yes we do!
Here's their write up (not in our usual 'arted' format as we couldn't wait to get these out to you!)
Golem's Tommie:" Having chatted with the team we decided that the desert theme for Hansa's body suit should in the end be black but still remain sleeveless. This still leaves me the opportunity to explore some freehand tattoo ideas on him which is great! His armour, painted fresh from the fabricators, is now complete. Painting shiny surface effects is one of my favourite things to apply to miniatures and i think this works especially well on Hansa's back plate, due to Kev's brilliant sculpting. However with Hansa i have to consider how i will beat the armor up and add some grime here and there so i can't go too nuts with the 'polishing' I kept all the tubing a subtle dark blue still cos i like the idea he is being pumped with nutrients, coolants and hydro "
The base is nice if a little generic, I'm curious if all of the last updates this kickstarter will receive will be the painting of the Boromite and Space-hobo, that will really pull the backers in.
Enjoy.
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Post by: yakface
Thanks for that, I enjoyed reading it.
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Post by: Charles Rampant
The painters are really good; his armour looks stunning. I prefer that style to Giraldez, who does the Infinity stuff.
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Post by: devilution
NMM is sweet. It takes mad skills to be able to paint like that.
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Post by: Commander Cain
Well even if the kickstarter fails I can see Golem getting a pretty penny out of all the advertising they are getting. That is one fantastic paintjob!
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Post by: Rolt
Update: The Algoryn
Only 16 days left on this, funding is currently at £101,458
Enjoy
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
The art makes me say
Well hello Mass Effect Turians (not a bad thing to bring to mind, but they do bring them to mind rather strongly for me)
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Post by: Rolt
They remind me of the Qunari from Dragon Age, except in space.
The Qunari:
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Post by: Breotan
They remind me more of those old wolfman movies back from the 50s & 60s.
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Post by: warboss
The Gwar??? Wow, they're really just shooting spitballs at the wall and seeing what sticks at this point. Are they armored with spikey lightshield projectors and armed with giant spacefoam genitalia?
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
 warboss wrote:The Gwar??? Wow, they're really just shooting spitballs at the wall and seeing what sticks at this point. Are they armored with spikey lightshield projectors and armed with giant spacefoam genitalia?
Is that how tabletop gamers represent Gay Women Against Rape? I suppose those precautions could work against naughty space elves and ovipositor aliens...
PS: Now I really want to see this army...
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Post by: catharsix
Given that there is almost certainly no way that the KS will receive 12,000 GBP PER DAY between now and the end, what do you think the reward for contributing 200,000 GBP would be? (The current highest level pledge is 4,930, which gets you 50 painted sight-unseen minis, a game & dinner with the DSC team, a night at a hotel [um...  ] and all manner of books n' stuff.)
-C6
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Post by: Dentry
Anyway, the Algoryn sound interesting and I'm liking the concept work for them. Hansa's armor is not turning out at all how I expected, it's actually better.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
First prize is a night with the dev team.
Second prize is two nights with the dev team.
Ha ha ha.
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Post by: derling
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:The art makes me say
Well hello Mass Effect Turians (not a bad thing to bring to mind, but they do bring them to mind rather strongly for me)
I thought the same thing and I think a more "Mass Effect: look to the BtGoA universe would be a good thing. Now they need to produce Salarians!!
I'll throw down an STG army in a heart beat!!
"Sometime hard to big picture through pile of corpses"....
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Post by: agustin
Does it make sense financially, if there is 100k on the table, for principals to contribute the other 200k in order to get their hands on a net extra 60k?
What I mean by this, is that if funding only goes to 150ish, can dummy pledges be made by insiders to get it successfully funded that they know they don't have to fulfil? Amazon/KS will still get their cut and they'll still bring in more than if the project fails.
And let's face it. What they've shown so far does not in any way cost 300k to produce for 1000-1500 people.
So are we going to start seeing pledges go up and up and up in the last few weeks, partially made up of real pledges and others of dummy pledges?
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Post by: catharsix
 agustin wrote:Does it make sense financially, if there is 100k on the table, for principals to contribute the other 200k in order to get their hands on a net extra 60k?
What I mean by this, is that if funding only goes to 150ish, can dummy pledges be made by insiders to get it successfully funded that they know they don't have to fulfil? Amazon/ KS will still get their cut and they'll still bring in more than if the project fails.
And let's face it. What they've shown so far does not in any way cost 300k to produce for 1000-1500 people.
So are we going to start seeing pledges go up and up and up in the last few weeks, partially made up of real pledges and others of dummy pledges?
This is a really fascinating hypothetical. Additionally, it would be nice to see the principals put some skin in the game, given that they're asking for a huge sum of money based on very minimal to show for it...
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Post by: AlexHolker
agustin wrote:Does it make sense financially, if there is 100k on the table, for principals to contribute the other 200k in order to get their hands on a net extra 60k?
What I mean by this, is that if funding only goes to 150ish, can dummy pledges be made by insiders to get it successfully funded that they know they don't have to fulfil? Amazon/ KS will still get their cut and they'll still bring in more than if the project fails.
They could certainly do it if they paid KS their pound of flesh for the extra 200klb, but it would make more sense to try to work something out with Kickstarter directly, where KS gets their fee for the first 100klb obtained through Kickstarter, while DSC provides proof of the additional 200klb in backing but do not pay the fee on that additional capital.
And let's face it. What they've shown so far does not in any way cost 300k to produce for 1000-1500 people.
I definitely agree with you there. We all know that the up-front costs are cheaper for metal than plastic, but when you're asking for half a million dollars that shouldn't be a problem. Dreamforge managed a similar output of kits, in plastic, for less than half of what DSC is asking.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
catharsix wrote:Given that there is almost certainly no way that the KS will receive 12,000 GBP PER DAY between now and the end, what do you think the reward for contributing 200,000 GBP would be?
-C6
A sex scandal with Rick Priestley?
Getting to rename the game Through the Gates of Wargames Factory?
Tony Reidy's undivided attention?
One thing it won't get you: a satisfying feeling of accomplishment.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
agustin wrote:Does it make sense financially, if there is 100k on the table, for principals to contribute the other 200k in order to get their hands on a net extra 60k?
What I mean by this, is that if funding only goes to 150ish, can dummy pledges be made by insiders to get it successfully funded that they know they don't have to fulfil? Amazon/ KS will still get their cut and they'll still bring in more than if the project fails.
And let's face it. What they've shown so far does not in any way cost 300k to produce for 1000-1500 people.
So are we going to start seeing pledges go up and up and up in the last few weeks, partially made up of real pledges and others of dummy pledges?
Probably not (even if it could be arranged)
you've accounted for KS fees, but not for taxes on the £270000 'income' form a funded KS
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Post by: agustin
 AlexHolker wrote:
They could certainly do it if they paid KS their pound of flesh for the extra 200klb, but it would make more sense to try to work something out with Kickstarter directly, where KS gets their fee for the first 100klb obtained through Kickstarter, while DSC provides proof of the additional 200klb in backing but do not pay the fee on that additional capital.
I have no idea what KS's policies are on stuff like that. Whether or not dummy contributes are an explicit violation of their terms, whether additional funding from the principles can change the project success amount.
I definitely agree with you there. We all know that the up-front costs are cheaper for metal than plastic, but when you're asking for half a million dollars that shouldn't be a problem. Dreamforge managed a similar output of kits, in plastic, for less than half of what DSC is asking.
It's nice to see some more concept art, but even the sculpt and painted previews so far have been lacking. I'm just not sure what they needed 300,000 for when it looks like a few Hasslefree sculpts and a rulebook is what they are producing. I've never been a huge fan of Kev White's sculpting and the miniatures so far look sub par compared to things like DreamForge (but what doesn't?).
At this point, I'm ready to put my money into the new Warzone stuff and the Rogue Trooper Kickstarter.
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Post by: Grot 6
How are we looking at for the squaddies?
All I see here is a bunch of pretty pictures and one whole sculpt in the painting phase.
Disappointed isn't really the word for it at this point.
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Post by: Eggs
Just got an email saying goa has been withdrawn from kick starter, and that they will be pursuing other ways of bringing it to market...
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Post by: Theophony
Hopefully they will take some time to digest what has been said in the forums and come back with a plan, models, and some excitement.
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Post by: Sidstyler
Yeah, page says it was canceled 13 minutes ago. That's a shame. Hopefully it comes back bigger and better later, I'm still interested but there just wasn't a whole lot here to be excited about yet.
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Post by: Catyrpelius
It's going to be interesting to see what effect a failed Kickstarter has on the game in the long run...
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Post by: Herzlos
I guess this makes sense. There's obviously a demand for the game, but I think the kickstarter was premature and too optimistic.
If they were looking for £30-50k to get the rules done and start adding factions as stretch goals it might have gone better. Or if they had more in the way of figures to show.
So hopefully this will just be a short delay allowing the team to get caught up and there will be a better kickstarter in the near future.
I have to admit it suits me at the moment as it's freed up a bit of money I can put into some other projects for now
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Post by: Bulldogging
I'm disappointed, but hopefully they make a comeback sooner rather than later.
"Almost" Finished Hansa painting at least.
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Post by: cyphertheory
 Catyrpelius wrote:It's going to be interesting to see what effect a failed Kickstarter has on the game in the long run...
hopefully a positive one regarding development. I'm not sure it will have any long term effect when it finally hits retail, but perhaps it will help with a new kickstarter as people who have pledged before will get in early.
imho the downfall of this kickstarter was the lack of shiny things to show.
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Post by: kenshin620
Hansa looks great painted up, at least they'll have that if they're going to make a smaller/different KS down the road
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Post by: Commander Cain
Good move. It seems silly for them to keep updating things, getting sculpts and painting done when it has been obvious for quite a while that they are never going to make the goal. I just hope they decide to keep all their plans going and come back in a year or so with some real stuff to show us.
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Post by: Rolt
Update: Kickstarter Cancellation
After much consideration we have decided to withdraw our project from Kickstarter.
We’d like to thank you all for believing in us and backing us, GoA will still become a reality but through different means.
We will take the next month to reassess our plans, during this time you will still see us on the forums and we will continue to post updates to our website. Once we have a plan set we will let you all know what it is so that we can continue to build GoA together.
There are a lot of positives to take from this journey and we certainly don’t think of this as a failure, more a change in plans with actual direct feedback from the market, which should help us greatly in the future. One of the best things we’ve done is you guys. We managed to develop a thriving community in a very short time, which is bursting with ideas and support for the project and for that we thank you and we will continue to want and need your help in the future.
There are too many people to thank, but we’d like to take the opportunity to give special thanks to these guys (in no order!): Melcavuk, Krazus, Prototheca, Endtransmission, Karl Pedder, Gylan Hunter, Michael Musson, John Wigley, Des Hanley, Karol Rudyk, Bruno Lavallee, Angelika Rasmus, Andy Gibson (brandnewbadidea), Golem Painting Studios, James Sherriff, Tim Prow, Kev White, Wojtek Fils, Bob Naismith, Andrew Chesney, Paul Sawyer
We’ll talk to you all very soon
Thank you!
Rick, Rik, John and Co
TBH I'm really shocked this happened, I expected them to follow through till the end regardless of how bleak the outcome looked. I guess we can just hope they don't give up on this project and it comes back bigger and better in a years or so's time. I hope the failure of and how they ran this KS project doesn't cause a negative preconception towards them in the future, wargamers can be a fickle crowd sometimes.
Enjoy.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Hansa's looking really nice, though that NMM look will be difficult for most people to replicate. Sad that the KS got cancelled, but it never got much of a chance from a lot of people.
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Post by: Bolognesus
 Vaktathi wrote:Hansa's looking really nice, though that NMM look will be difficult for most people to replicate. Sad that the KS got cancelled, but it never got much of a chance from a lot of people.
Foremost amongst them the developers, I'd say
Shame - I liked a lot about it & was in for early feeder...
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Post by: scarletsquig
Hansa looks amazing painted up, if only they'd had that pic right at the start instead of posting it alongside the cancellation notice, we'd have had a much different reaction.
You can't go into these things asking for £300k and not have anything to show for it.
If they come back with a more modest goal of around £60k just to produce the rulebook, with hansa thrown in as a bonus, and then take it from there with a £60k-goal mini- KS for each faction, similar to what RBG is doing, they can make this work, easily.
Unfortunately, people are trying to encourage them to take the CMoN route and release a "board game" instead.
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Post by: Pacific
scarletsquig wrote:
Unfortunately, people are trying to encourage them to take the CMoN route and release a "board game" instead.
Who are these people? Did they even understand the concept of the game?
Herzlos wrote:I guess this makes sense. There's obviously a demand for the game, but I think the kickstarter was premature and too optimistic.
If they were looking for £30-50k to get the rules done and start adding factions as stretch goals it might have gone better. Or if they had more in the way of figures to show.
So hopefully this will just be a short delay allowing the team to get caught up and there will be a better kickstarter in the near future.
I have to say I still think GoA has a lot going for it. I use the present tense, as Rick has already put forward that (should the KS fail) they have other means of investing, and they are too far invested in the game in terms of effort to just give up on it. That they must have known the failure was inevitable at least two weeks ago, when the pledges started to plateau, means that hopefully they are already making preparations for another announcement.
And, let this be a lesson for other Kickstarters - no matter how big the name on the box (and arguably, there couldn't be a bigger name there in terms of wargaming - short of bringing HG Wells back from the dead) the project needs to start with a great deal of development already on the table. Want to take the 'player feedback' route of helping to formulate the rules and game concepts? Get them organised well before the Kickstarter begins - with Rick's name on the project, they had plenty of people already signed up - and get a solid collection of concept art, at least 1 green for each of the races, and considering one of the strongest selling point of the game, perhaps even a demo of the online mission and rule upload system. If these things had been done, and all of it with a polish on the top, I have no doubt we would be talking now about smashed KS records rather than a cancellation notice.
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
I think cutting it now, does help the game more than seeing it through until the last day.
If more minis like Hansa show up the next time there will bedefinitly a demand for the game.
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Post by: NAVARRO
All delays in delivering content etc aside I think one of the major problems was the inconsistency on the sculpting, I mean you get 1 brilliant mini and 2 very crude amateurish ones, thats not a good start IMO.
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Post by: Zweischneid
 Duncan_Idaho wrote:I think cutting it now, does help the game more than seeing it through until the last day.
If more minis like Hansa show up the next time there will bedefinitly a demand for the game.
But they can do that without the Kickstarter.
If they produce new sculpts with the KS still running, all mentions will be in relations to the huge gap they still have to cross.
If they produce a new sculpt now, (presumably) their community of fans will carry it out into the interwebs to be discussed on its own merits, free from the "shadow" of a looming Kickstarter-fail.
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
Exactly, and the time pressure is less.
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Post by: reppy
Kickstarter wasn't really good so this outcome it's not surprising for me, but i think that with a better project they can make a good product. The mini, the game, the background, all was in little pieces and nothing stood out really. You can see something interesting deep in the idea, but it was really rushed and far fetched imho. I wasn't a backer but before the start of the kickstarter i was really interested in pledging, after only a couple of days i realized that there was really nothing exceptional or economically worth for me.
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Post by: Buzzsaw
One of the biggest problems this project faced is that it was a unique and irreducible: that is, unlike, say, Sedition Wars or the Iron Core universe, Beyond the Gates was going to be built around the gimmick of the real-time, MMO universe. The inherent problem with that system is that you can't really make that system smaller: it's always going to need a pretty impressive infrastructure, one that can't really be scaled down or done piecemeal.
That said, the 300k funding limit was always the Achilles heel of this project: the infrastructure they needed for their on-line and the basic rules should have been the target, and as we saw, 100k was easily possible just on Priestly's name alone.
All of that said, let's not forget, sometimes the dogs just don't like the dog food. Just my opinion, but I never found the elements of the game all that enticing. The setting would constantly remind me of other things: the nanomachine-god-AI almost right out of Ringo's Council Wars series, the Mass Effect like Gate system (or Pohl's HeeChee, if you're more obscure), the parade of miniatures that all seemed lifted to one degree or another from other settings. And, frankly, I never really saw why anyone would want a table top game that requires at the same time paying close attention to something on-line (shades of Ex Illis).
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Post by: Cryptek of Awesome
Buzzsaw wrote: That said, the 300k funding limit was always the Achilles heel of this project: the infrastructure they needed for their on-line and the basic rules should have been the target, and as we saw, 100k was easily possible just on Priestly's name alone.
I don't think it was the 300k specifically although that was high... I think it was always the was the lack of content from day one. Like a lot of people have said - they needed their 3 or 4 four main factions up front and centre on the Kickstarter page on Day one. You can't wait several weeks to have concept art and alien race descriptions start filtering in appearing down the page and scattered across updates - Kickstarter is a real pain to navigate. Front page on day 1 needs to be: *Boom* Main game Army bundle 1 Army bundle 2 Army bundle 3 Then the stretch goals unlock more factions and more miniatures for everyone. I want to say that at the end when I checked back again there was some nice looking stuff being posted about the races and the painted Hansa but that should have been day 1 stuff. By that point I didn't really feel compelled enough to go back and piece it all together and get on board... and I've backed about a dozen kickstarters over the last 10 months, the really casual gamer is long gone.
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Post by: agustin
I guess this is a case study in how not to handle a Kickstarter. I think withdrawing the project was the right thing to do.
Some of the concept art, when it finally appeared, was really strong. Hopefully they'll lead with that direction next time rather than bubble skin man and Mr. butt plates.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
£300K is not very much to write three new integrated rulesets, develop several factions with rules, army books and miniatures, and develop a web and app infrastructure to run an interactive campaign. And ship all of that to customers.
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Post by: agustin
That's too large of a scope for the project to be kicked off with no real content to be displayed. Way too large.
Had they gone with:
One rules set. Some miniatures for a few factions. The web interface (including a mobile version until an app can be made in the future).
At a lower goal amount, with some real content to show right from the start, they would have had success with their Kickstarter.
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Post by: Dentry
So they're going to take a month to make a decision on what to do with the IP? I'm confused. Dark Space Corp have stated the game will proceed no matter what so presumably they should keep building the universe; the factions and races; technology; miniatures and ruleset; and work very, very hard on the wardrones.
They should take the time (more than a month, please) to organize themselves, produce materials and strategies for their next crowdsourcing attempt. Maybe they could set up a shell company or work something out where Kickstarter doesn't require credit card info to donate - served as a big deterrent for my even backing this project without assured success.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Meanwhile the next Zombicide Kickstarter will probably make 300K in its first week...
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Post by: Zweischneid
 H.B.M.C. wrote:Meanwhile the next Zombicide Kickstarter will probably make 300K in its first week...
So what?
Isn't that the best thing about Kickstarter. It's provides rote-template to raising prodigious amounts of money that is (relatively) easy to replicate. The examples for "how to do it" are out there. Entrepreneurs or "I-want-to-make-my-own" wargame-people 5 or 10 years ago would've sold their grandparents to have such a convenient "by-the-numbers-approach" to raising start-up money.
All you need to do is copy-&-paste what Zombicide et al. did and you'll be playing Gates of Antares (or whatever) in no time.
Or, if in doubt, give CMON a call. I doubt they'd turn down Rick Priestley. By all I see, they are worth their money in the (Kickstarter-) marketing department.
[edit]
Also, CMON's Confrontation Kickstarter incoming this year. If they do it right, be prepared to see Reaper Bones dethroned.
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Post by: Vaktathi
CMON was building entirely different games from an entirely different point of view with essentially completed products ready to go. You can't just point to CMON for everything miniature related and say "do that" because it's not applicable to every project. Zombicide and the like were finished and ready to go products where basically Kickstarter serves as a pre-order mechanism that helps cover/recover initial startup costs quickly. While that works for some things very very well, it doesn't necessarily translate to every project.
I feel in many ways the miniatures market playerbase was...I don't want to say "spoiled" but it's the only word that comes to mind, with projects that were essentially "finished on demand" where they're presented with what amounts to a fancy array of pre-order options for something that's largely already good to go, and now anything different is going to face difficulties.
NOTE: I'm not saying that they didn't make mistakes here, only that other projects created preconceptions that weren't necessarily translatable and judged this project on that.
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Post by: Bossk_Hogg
H.B.M.C. wrote:Meanwhile the next Zombicide Kickstarter will probably make 300K in its first week...
Its the high funding goal that scares people off. There's a strong mentality not to back until something is funded, as people dont want to take the leap (not that it matters, you arent charged if the project doesnt get funded).
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Post by: PsychoticStorm
I think they take a month off to decide how they will continue, not if they will continue.
Personally I am intrigued on the possibilities and even if kickstarter didn't go well, I will keep an eye on it.
I still believe it can succeed if it is better supported, by the developers.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Bossk_Hogg wrote:Its the high funding goal that scares people off. There's a strong mentality not to back until something is funded, as people dont want to take the leap (not that it matters, you arent charged if the project doesnt get funded).
Which makes me wonder why they started it so high.
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Post by: god.ra
This is really annoying, I love that mini with the moustache. I guess I get my money back now! What to spend it on? I was gonna use him to lead the the cybertronic chasseurs from the new warzone.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/504794.page
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Post by: devilution
This was easy to predict.
It's like I posted somewhere on their forums.
1. 300K GBP for basic rules, some lore, 3/4 sculpts and allot of AIR.
2. No real reason the pledge more than 30GBP (for Hansa and rulebook) Why pledge for an army that you don't even know how it will look like? Are the models discounted?
3. Metagaming = biggest cost of the project, they never said that but I am pretty sure that's why they need 300K GBP (I am software developer, so I do know the things they wanted to have in place take allot of cash) -> primary target audience = miniature wargamers => FAIL to satisfy the primary target = GAME OVER.
Solution:
Start with a small kickstarter 1 to 2 factions, each 5 to 10 models already sculpted. Skirmish rules (necromunda²) 20K GBP -> stretch goals : New minis / New rules / ultimate goal -> metagaming, maybe even do the metagaming in a big campaign with it's own kickstarter.
I know eff about marketing but just use some common sense, don't try to reinvent the wheel damn it :(
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Post by: Azazelx
Sidstyler wrote:Yeah, page says it was canceled 13 minutes ago. That's a shame. Hopefully it comes back bigger and better later, I'm still interested but there just wasn't a whole lot here to be excited about yet.
Kind of a shame, but not really. Better that they learn a lesson about crowdfunding and what you need to be able to offer to attract varying amounts of money, as well as get a clue about how to actually run a Kickstarter in terms of content. If they come back in 6 months with a better-thought-out campaign it'll only be better for all involved - us and them both - so good. If they come back in 6 months with a rulebook at retail, with Warlord as proper investors, then good.
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Post by: Spyral
There was too much ephermia - the rules were vagueish, their gameplay video was dire, d10s are evil to roll enmass, gameplay looked like infinity only worse with random proxies.
Nothing new or innovative was shown, only promises.
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Post by: cincydooley
Bossk_Hogg wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:Meanwhile the next Zombicide Kickstarter will probably make 300K in its first week...
Its the high funding goal that scares people off. There's a strong mentality not to back until something is funded, as people dont want to take the leap (not that it matters, you arent charged if the project doesnt get funded).
Disagree. It's the lack of an actual sample product. They were pitching a large scale miniatures game and still only have two of the actual products complete.
The pebble watch had a $100k funding level but had a ton of product info and made $10M
Penny Arcade had theirs set at $250K and had a very clear picture of what you got with your pledge. They ended at around $550k.
Gates had none of that.
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Post by: Azazelx
 scarletsquig wrote:Hansa looks amazing painted up, if only they'd had that pic right at the start instead of posting it alongside the cancellation notice, we'd have had a much different reaction.
You can't go into these things asking for £300k and not have anything to show for it.
If they come back with a more modest goal of around £60k just to produce the rulebook, with hansa thrown in as a bonus, and then take it from there with a £60k-goal mini- KS for each faction, similar to what RBG is doing, they can make this work, easily.
Unfortunately, people are trying to encourage them to take the CMoN route and release a "board game" instead.
What do you mean by "board game"? Something like Sedition Wars (or better yet, a boxed skirmish game like Necromunda) might well be the way to go for an initial product - especially in terms of getting some models and content together upfront...
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Post by: kenshin620
Kilkrazy wrote:£300K is not very much to write three new integrated rulesets,
Wait what 3 rulesets
I thought it was one book
Unless I missed something from their KS page....again
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Post by: Zweischneid
Vaktathi wrote:CMON was building entirely different games from an entirely different point of view with essentially completed products ready to go. You can't just point to CMON for everything miniature related and say "do that" because it's not applicable to every project. Zombicide and the like were finished and ready to go products where basically Kickstarter serves as a pre-order mechanism that helps cover/recover initial startup costs quickly. While that works for some things very very well, it doesn't necessarily translate to every project.
I feel in many ways the miniatures market playerbase was...I don't want to say "spoiled" but it's the only word that comes to mind, with projects that were essentially "finished on demand" where they're presented with what amounts to a fancy array of pre-order options for something that's largely already good to go, and now anything different is going to face difficulties.
NOTE: I'm not saying that they didn't make mistakes here, only that other projects created preconceptions that weren't necessarily translatable and judged this project on that.
Well, the "spoiled" thing would only apply if there were previous "un-spoiled" Kickstarter that made similar amounts of money by a different method. But there weren't.
The formula the CMON perfected (though certainly didn't invent) made them the first to breach that 500.000 USD mark that GoA were going for themselves, using the same platform ( www.kickstarter.com) that CMON has used to their advantage.
If you want to aim for that level, it kinda makes sense to look at the best available comparisons. For that:
a - Miniature Games are better comparisons than .. dunno ... Music Projects
b - Miniature Games launched in the last year or so are better comparisons than those launched 25 years ago
c - Miniature Games launched on Kickstarter are better comparions than those withouth (um.. DZC) or on other platforms
d - Miniature Games Kickstarter in the 500.000 USD+ league (Relic Knights, DreadBall, etc.) are probably better comparisons than 20.000 USD Kickstarter
e - Sci-Fi Miniatures Kickstarters in that range (um.. Sedition Wars, DreadBall) are likely better comparisons than non-Sci-Fi Kickstarter,
f - etc..
People keep saying that GoA is oh so different, yet they always fail to provide better comparisons.
For an evidence-based-approach to developing a Kickstarter-strategy that raises this kind of money, there aren't that many precedents. You work with those that fit best (if, of course, always imperfectly). And these are the CMON Kickstarters (+ DreadBall, Kingdom Death... maybe OGRE?).
If you want to make a case that different strategies work and CMON is some form of corruption of something even better, you'd better give an example.
Just saying "these don't apply" without having a better benchmark to work with doesn't help.
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Post by: Formosa
I am genuinely disappointed, I think this game has alot of potential
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Pacific wrote:Rolt wrote:P.s. Sorry for not embedding the video I'm not sure how to with vimeo, silly hipster stuff.
That's OK, the ability to embed videos here is known only to a select few. Known as 'The Quadrangle', their identity is known only to themselves, and should any reveal the secrets of video embedding, they are immediately hunted down and murdered most horribly by the hands of the other members.
Usually when one of the Quadrangle is approaching death, they will search for another to whom to pass on their secrets. The exact method of the choosing of the new members is not known, but it is thought that only those with a knowledge of the arcane and forbidden arts are likely to be selected. At times they are witnessed, wandering through the streets, their faces hidden by black cowls, their coming heralded by the passing of crows.
So, as a result not many videos get posted on Dakka.
Moving forward I want Pacific to answer all tech questions on Dakka.
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Post by: Breotan
That's being rather generous.
So, are we officially sticking a fork in this one?
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Post by: decker_cky
Vaktathi wrote:CMON was building entirely different games from an entirely different point of view with essentially completed products ready to go. You can't just point to CMON for everything miniature related and say "do that" because it's not applicable to every project. Zombicide and the like were finished and ready to go products where basically Kickstarter serves as a pre-order mechanism that helps cover/recover initial startup costs quickly. While that works for some things very very well, it doesn't necessarily translate to every project.
I feel in many ways the miniatures market playerbase was...I don't want to say "spoiled" but it's the only word that comes to mind, with projects that were essentially "finished on demand" where they're presented with what amounts to a fancy array of pre-order options for something that's largely already good to go, and now anything different is going to face difficulties.
NOTE: I'm not saying that they didn't make mistakes here, only that other projects created preconceptions that weren't necessarily translatable and judged this project on that.
Zweischneid has the right of it. You'll have a tough time finding a gaming that raises $300k let alone 300 GBP without a few things:
*The product has to be essentially done and visibly so (Reaper had a few concepts but otherwise was remakes of previous minatures).
*You also almost never raise that much without having another kickstarter first.
*You give a spectacular bargain.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Zweischneid wrote:
People keep saying that GoA is oh so different, yet they always fail to provide better comparisons.
My point is that...perhaps there isn't one? GoA is a much different game with a much different focus by a much different group of people with a different target market than say, Zombicide or Ogre, and given the heavy reliance on comparison with little acknowledgement of these facts I don't think was fair.
Again, I'm not saying that they couldn't have done a better job. I do think however that people comparing Zombicide, Kingdom Death, Ogre, Sedition Wars, etc and not seeing what they expected, when, even if all *had* gone right, they shouldn't have seen the same things, and continually complaining about that that, was unfair, and did a lot to help keep the KS from becoming a success by continually posting about how "they should do this or that that X kickstarter did, funding expectations don't look good (over a month out), hey Zombicide did that why aren't they?" and the like.
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Post by: ph34r
decker_cky wrote:Zweischneid has the right of it. You'll have a tough time finding a gaming that raises $300k let alone 300 GBP without a few things:
*The product has to be essentially done and visibly so (Reaper had a few concepts but otherwise was remakes of previous minatures).
*You also almost never raise that much without having another kickstarter first.
*You give a spectacular bargain.
Agreed here as well. GoA was shooting for all the high targets but had none of the big draws that helped other projects succeed to that kind of large degree. In fact, GoA had basically no concrete draws for me; it was significantly less appealing than the majority of sub-10k goal kickstarters and similarly had much less material than those same tiny company kickstarters. They went about it totally backwards and I did not bat an eyelash when they failed.
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Post by: silent25
Comparing it to games like Zombicide, KD, and SW is a bit unrealistic because those are board games and not table top miniature games. They attracted different demographics. Ogre and Relic Knights are the only table top miniature games that exceeded $400,000. Even Mantic's Kings of War which followed the CMoN process to a tee didn't break that.
I will admit I didn't read all the pages in this thread, but was having Rick Priestly as the lead designer such a good thing? People have been griping about the imbalance in WHFB/40k since I started in the early 90's with WHFB 3rd and Rogue Trader. He openly admits WHFB 3rd was completely unplayable.
Basically this was a Kickstarter that was aimed at the table top miniature crowd that lacked on key item, miniatures.
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Post by: plastictrees
A suite of coherent concept art would have been enough to get people excited with greens coming up during the project. We can talk forever about what they could have done, but it all comes back to asking for $465,000.00.
They potentially raised $150,000.00 off a name, his jotter of sci-fi concepts, barely a handful of pretty vague concept art, and two and a half models.
I think that says that there's a desire for at least part of what they were offering even if that's just "a new squad based sci fi TTG".
Let's see if Warzone eats that market before GoA can get it's act together.
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Post by: Grot 6
I can honestly see this one revamped and coming back with some miniatures, as well as the painted gits.
Am intrigued by the concept, disappointed that it took over 35+ days to recognise that even if your a well known games designer, you can't come to the table without product in hand.
Best thing that happened for this is that I might even give it the time of day if they have the minis next.
They will go well with Sedition Wars/ Generic Scifi tabletop games.
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Post by: plastictrees
 Grot 6 wrote: disappointed that it took over 35+ days to recognise that even if your a well known games designer, you can't come to the table without product in hand.
I had started assuming that they were going to play the kickstarter out if only for the attention it was getting and dialogue it was creating. I was actually surprised that they pulled the plug when they did.
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Post by: Grot 6
Something told me it was inevitable. especially when you see absolutly zero growth for over 20 days, and then start seeing the reversals that happened. I have no access to that data, but there will easily be a good look at how it played out.
Interested in the EVE on the tabletop slant that it seems to have, though. I'd like to see it evolve into something along the lines of campaigning and evolutionary exporations game, where as the factions start going off in thier directions and conquring plants and systems, they continue to add more and more to the game.
Wish them no ill will, however, irregardless of the outcome of this KS. If anything, they learned a few lessions that will come back and be dealt with on the revamp.
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Post by: Azazelx
silent25 wrote:Comparing it to games like Zombicide, KD, and SW is a bit unrealistic because those are board games and not table top miniature games. They attracted different demographics. Ogre and Relic Knights are the only table top miniature games that exceeded $400,000. Even Mantic's Kings of War which followed the CMoN process to a tee didn't break that.
I will admit I didn't read all the pages in this thread, but was having Rick Priestly as the lead designer such a good thing? People have been griping about the imbalance in WHFB/ 40k since I started in the early 90's with WHFB 3rd and Rogue Trader. He openly admits WHFB 3rd was completely unplayable.
Sounds like he's learned from his mistakes on that ruleset that was designed more than 25 years ago, no? Warmaster, Bolt Action, Black Powder, Infanticide all have pretty positive rules feedback.
Anyway, I thought WHFB3 was great. I was awfully disappointed when it was dumbed down in 4th and we lost things like cavalry wedges and so forth.
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Post by: reppy
I was expecting that they'll plug the plug in these days. They were at stall and also losing pldegers lately...
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Post by: precinctomega
To those of us who are game developers ourselves, with potential plans for crowdfunding projects ourselves, this is a salient lesson that bears careful study.
I wasn't attracted to GoA from the start, but I'm poor, so that has to be taken into account. But I'll be picking over this thread and others to identify the apparent common points in order to better plan my own approach to Kickstarter (or whatever platform I use).
R.
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Post by: Zweischneid
Vaktathi wrote: I do think however that people comparing Zombicide, Kingdom Death, Ogre, Sedition Wars, etc and not seeing what they expected, when, even if all *had* gone right, they shouldn't have seen the same things, and continually complaining about that that, was unfair, and did a lot to help keep the KS from becoming a success by continually posting about how "they should do this or that that X kickstarter did, funding expectations don't look good (over a month out), hey Zombicide did that why aren't they?" and the like.
But on what basis do you think that?
You say they did worse for people comparing it to Zombicide. Perhaps they also did better for it instead (as in adopting "fake-stretch-goals" with their club-scheme).
We have no way of knowing other than personal preference or bias.
The only thing we do know is that the Zombicide-template DID, in the recent past, raise that kind of money, for games that do cater to vastly different audiences (e.g. Kingdom Death vs. Rivet Wars vs. Relic Knights).
Just saying I think this was a problem doesn't make it so. If you claim that the "Zombicide-template" is an inferior/corrupting approach to raising half a million dollars, there should be at least 1 Crowd-funding project somewhere that made that kind of bank while also complying to your standards of a "good" or "proper" Kickstarter.
If there isn't one, than the Zombicide-approach is, for all we know, not a spoiled/inferior/corrupting approach for crowd-funding 500.000,- + USD. It simply is the only approach for doing it (that we have seen so far).
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Post by: AlexHolker
If I had been running this Kickstarter, there would have been one vital difference: I would have had the first plastic kit ready to go. I would have set aside January as "develop the Wardrones month", and spent the time with potential customers brainstorming, drawing concept art, receiving critiques and sculpted the sculpts. Only once that was done would I start the Kickstarter.
This is important for two reasons: it gives people something to pledge for where they know what they are getting, and it gives people a living, breathing example of the development process for a race, so that they know how it will work when their preferred race is next in line.
Vaktathi wrote:I feel in many ways the miniatures market playerbase was...I don't want to say "spoiled" but it's the only word that comes to mind, with projects that were essentially "finished on demand" where they're presented with what amounts to a fancy array of pre-order options for something that's largely already good to go, and now anything different is going to face difficulties.
If so, the playerbase was spoiled years before Kickstarter existed. If you can't compete in an environment where potential customers can not just pre-order known models but buy known models off the shelf, you can't compete, period.
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Post by: Lucas Blackwolf
AlexHolker wrote:/.../ and spent the time with potential customers brainstorming, drawing concept art, receiving critiques and sculpted the sculpts. Only once that was done would I start the Kickstarter.
This is important for two reasons: it gives people something to pledge for where they know what they are getting, and it gives people a living, breathing example of the development process for a race, so that they know how it will work when their preferred race is next in line.
It also gives the producers an estimate of how much interest there is for a product, the size of the fanbase and its "investing potential", which should, ideally provide for a good idea of what could be a realistic goal to set from the get-go.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
kenshin620 wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:£300K is not very much to write three new integrated rulesets,
Wait what 3 rulesets
I thought it was one book
Unless I missed something from their KS page....again
The game is designed to scale from a detailed RPG to a WH40K style large skirmish to a mass battle system, essentially by using the property of the base 10 system to scale up and down an order of magnitude.
Hence three rulesets. Automatically Appended Next Post: Vaktathi wrote:Zweischneid wrote:
People keep saying that GoA is oh so different, yet they always fail to provide better comparisons.
My point is that...perhaps there isn't one? GoA is a much different game with a much different focus by a much different group of people with a different target market than say, Zombicide or Ogre, and given the heavy reliance on comparison with little acknowledgement of these facts I don't think was fair.
Again, I'm not saying that they couldn't have done a better job. I do think however that people comparing Zombicide, Kingdom Death, Ogre, Sedition Wars, etc and not seeing what they expected, when, even if all *had* gone right, they shouldn't have seen the same things, and continually complaining about that that, was unfair, and did a lot to help keep the KS from becoming a success by continually posting about how "they should do this or that that X kickstarter did, funding expectations don't look good (over a month out), hey Zombicide did that why aren't they?" and the like.
That said, the idea behind the project was for community involvement, and if critics kept pointing out flaws keeping them from pledging, perhaps that was a potentially valuable form of involvement. However they didn't have much stuff ready to release. It looked like they were scrabbling around to try and satisfy people, and gave an impression that nothing had been thought out in advance.
In my view as a wargamer and a businessman the key problems are:
A very ambitious goal with very little information to inspire people.
Saturation of the Kickstarter wargame genre means there is a lot of competition.
What they were able to show did not have enough of a Wow factor.
Let's say you took a leap of faith and pledged £25 on the thinking that you would get a set of rules by Rick Priestley and a nice character model, and if the whole game looked good you could buy the rest of it when it came out of development. At the worst, if everything went down the tubes, you would only lose your £25.
They needed 12,000 wargamers to sign up for that in order to reach the funding target.
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Post by: CptJake
silent25 wrote:Comparing it to games like Zombicide, KD, and SW is a bit unrealistic because those are board games and not table top miniature games. They attracted different demographics. Ogre and Relic Knights are the only table top miniature games that exceeded $400,000. Even Mantic's Kings of War which followed the CMoN process to a tee didn't break that.
OGRE is very much a map and cardboard chit board game and not a table top miniatures game. Though there is a miniatures game version, that was NOT what the kickstarter was for.
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Post by: silent25
CptJake wrote:silent25 wrote:Comparing it to games like Zombicide, KD, and SW is a bit unrealistic because those are board games and not table top miniature games. They attracted different demographics. Ogre and Relic Knights are the only table top miniature games that exceeded $400,000. Even Mantic's Kings of War which followed the CMoN process to a tee didn't break that.
OGRE is very much a map and cardboard chit board game and not a table top miniatures game. Though there is a miniatures game version, that was NOT what the kickstarter was for.
Noted and further stresses my point, then only ONE table top miniature game exceeded $400,000. The rest were all board games with miniatures. They set a very high bar from the start that was completely unrealistic and no similar projects to look to. You could argue then that Relic Knights was an outlier and should not be considered a realistic example.
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Post by: Shepherd23
 Azazelx wrote: scarletsquig wrote:Hansa looks amazing painted up, if only they'd had that pic right at the start instead of posting it alongside the cancellation notice, we'd have had a much different reaction.
You can't go into these things asking for £300k and not have anything to show for it.
If they come back with a more modest goal of around £60k just to produce the rulebook, with hansa thrown in as a bonus, and then take it from there with a £60k-goal mini- KS for each faction, similar to what RBG is doing, they can make this work, easily.
Unfortunately, people are trying to encourage them to take the CMoN route and release a "board game" instead.
What do you mean by "board game"? Something like Sedition Wars (or better yet, a boxed skirmish game like Necromunda) might well be the way to go for an initial product - especially in terms of getting some models and content together upfront...
I would pay cash money, big time, for a Necromunda type game! Something where you have a small amount of figures that "level up" with individualized gear. I think my hatred of GW started when they abandoned Necromunda. That and Gorka Morka were my favorites by them and they just up and quit them both.
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Post by: Bossk_Hogg
silent25 wrote:Comparing it to games like Zombicide, KD, and SW is a bit unrealistic because those are board games and not table top miniature games.
The main selling point of Kingdom Death and Sedition Wars were the minis. They might not be a "pure" wargame in your opinion, but they are soundly in the minis wargame camp (moving minis around the play area, rolling dice, killing other units). Letters to Whitechapel they aint.
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Post by: His Master's Voice
Kilkrazy wrote:That said, the idea behind the project was for community involvement
That was actually what put me off almost as much as the general lack of content. Design by committee is a sure fire way of producing homogenised drivel when said committee numbers in the thousands.
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Post by: Hercule Pyro
 His Master's Voice wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:That said, the idea behind the project was for community involvement
That was actually what put me off almost as much as the general lack of content. Design by committee is a sure fire way of producing homogenised drivel when said committee numbers in the thousands.
Whereas with me my concern was the loudest voices would drown out all others, even if what they were shouting for was pap. I like Rick, he's a top bloke with a great flair for wargame design and can come up with some fun settings. If I want to know what The Internet can come up with, there are hundreds upon hundreds of free (Or cheap as free) rules and settings, ranging from the sublime to the terrible. I'm interested in what happens when Rick Priestley tries to design a game in a setting that's EVE by way of Iain M. Banks's Culture novels.
Oh well. It'll still happen, and I'll keep one eye on it, and will pick up a rulebook should one cross my path.
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Post by: warboss
His Master's Voice wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:That said, the idea behind the project was for community involvement
That was actually what put me off almost as much as the general lack of content. Design by committee is a sure fire way of producing homogenised drivel when said committee numbers in the thousands.
How can a kickstarter asking for a half million dollars that "started" with nothing but a person's name, logo, and some vague ideas and videos fail? Especially when follwing updates revealed a 70's bromarine porn star spokesperson figure (which despite the sarcasm I kind of like), pages and pages of comments about space furries, and the creation of a faction named after an objectionable band that screams on stage while waving giant foam genitalia. That seems like a guaranteed forumula for success instead of the old fashioned working out the core details like rules and art concepts ahead of time like you'd have to with any other type of investor. /sarcasm.
While I don't think that Kickstarter should be used as a defacto preorder vehicle, I do think that companies without ready-made products need to treat crowdfunding like they would any other type of traditional investment presentation to a bank, venture capitalists, rich friends, etc. They should do their homework ahead of time prior to starting instead of just winging it as they go along like this failed effort did.
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Post by: cincydooley
His Master's Voice wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:That said, the idea behind the project was for community involvement
That was actually what put me off almost as much as the general lack of content. Design by committee is a sure fire way of producing homogenised drivel when said committee numbers in the thousands.
Same here. I'm glad I'm not the only one that had this opinion. I can understand wanting the community input AFTER you have a base product, but as an integral piece to developing your entire game? Puhleese. To me it always seemed like a "get free labor and ideas from the unwashed internet masses so we don't have to do the work" than anything else.
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Post by: silent25
Bossk_Hogg wrote:silent25 wrote:Comparing it to games like Zombicide, KD, and SW is a bit unrealistic because those are board games and not table top miniature games.
The main selling point of Kingdom Death and Sedition Wars were the minis. They might not be a "pure" wargame in your opinion, but they are soundly in the minis wargame camp (moving minis around the play area, rolling dice, killing other units). Letters to Whitechapel they aint.
You left out the part of my post where I said, " They attracted different demographics. Yes, we looked at them as games with great figs, the board game aspect exposed it to different people who wouldn't have given it a second look if they hadn't been board games. We may think them only as sources for figs, but board game players see them as adding to the aesthetic of the game. The biggest amount of forum talk during the KD KS was over at Board Game Geeks and most of it was regarding play mechanics.
Talking with someone who discussed SW with Mike McVey in person. McVey stressed the reason he went with a board game instead of a table top mini game was because it wouldn't have done as well. It was planned as a mini game originally. There are dozens of mini games trying to establish themselves right now and most people pass on them because they are already invested in the bigger ones. Boardgames are viewed differently because they are seen as being self contained. No worries about a new book coming out and forcing you how you play your game or invalidate your army build.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cincydooley wrote: His Master's Voice wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:That said, the idea behind the project was for community involvement
That was actually what put me off almost as much as the general lack of content. Design by committee is a sure fire way of producing homogenised drivel when said committee numbers in the thousands.
Same here. I'm glad I'm not the only one that had this opinion. I can understand wanting the community input AFTER you have a base product, but as an integral piece to developing your entire game? Puhleese. To me it always seemed like a "get free labor and ideas from the unwashed internet masses so we don't have to do the work" than anything else.
Having played the Legend of the Five rings CCG for a too long time (looks at the tote full of useless card in the corner of his room), I can say design/influence by committee can be a bad thing. The story and design elements that popped up in L5R due to numbers of people playing a faction or winning a tournament led to some serious WTF storylines.
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Post by: Byte
I followed this thread and tried to be interested in this project/game, its seems they were just trying to hard. Not sure how to describe it.
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Post by: Bossk_Hogg
silent25 wrote:Bossk_Hogg wrote:silent25 wrote:Comparing it to games like Zombicide, KD, and SW is a bit unrealistic because those are board games and not table top miniature games.
The main selling point of Kingdom Death and Sedition Wars were the minis. They might not be a "pure" wargame in your opinion, but they are soundly in the minis wargame camp (moving minis around the play area, rolling dice, killing other units). Letters to Whitechapel they aint.
You left out the part of my post where I said, " They attracted different demographics. Yes, we looked at them as games with great figs, the board game aspect exposed it to different people who wouldn't have given it a second look if they hadn't been board games. We may think them only as sources for figs, but board game players see them as adding to the aesthetic of the game. The biggest amount of forum talk during the KD KS was over at Board Game Geeks and most of it was regarding play mechanics.
Talking with someone who discussed SW with Mike McVey in person. McVey stressed the reason he went with a board game instead of a table top mini game was because it wouldn't have done as well. It was planned as a mini game originally. There are dozens of mini games trying to establish themselves right now and most people pass on them because they are already invested in the bigger ones. Boardgames are viewed differently because they are seen as being self contained. No worries about a new book coming out and forcing you how you play your game or invalidate your army build.
It may have some boardgame crossover, but they are pretty soundly minis combat games. SW and KD are hardly self contained, with the expansions, new units, etc. Sedition Wars is about as much a boardgame as Mordheim. Naturally BGG focuses on mechanics, they arent painters primarily. Theres is lots of mechanics discussion here and on other minis combat boards, for that matter. Sure, it can get labeled many ways, but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, but the salesman tells you its really a chicken. I'm going to go with my gut and call it a duck.
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Post by: Azazelx
cincydooley wrote: His Master's Voice wrote: Kilkrazy wrote:That said, the idea behind the project was for community involvement
That was actually what put me off almost as much as the general lack of content. Design by committee is a sure fire way of producing homogenised drivel when said committee numbers in the thousands.
Same here. I'm glad I'm not the only one that had this opinion. I can understand wanting the community input AFTER you have a base product, but as an integral piece to developing your entire game? Puhleese. To me it always seemed like a "get free labor and ideas from the unwashed internet masses so we don't have to do the work" than anything else.
I've also had largely the same opinion since the start, but "free labour"? You're kidding, right? It'd take far more work to sift through all the rubbish for the occasional good idea than to come up with the core concepts yourself and allow some feedback from the public.
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Post by: kenshin620
Azazelx wrote:
I've also had largely the same opinion since the start, but "free labour"? You're kidding, right? It'd take far more work to sift through all the rubbish for the occasional good idea than to come up with the core concepts yourself and allow some feedback from the public.
Completely agreed there
I'd hate to be the poor sap who had to read through the sexism topic, all 20 some odd pages of it
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Post by: yakface
Okay, I think this topic is pretty well covered at this point, so I'm locking the thread.
Obviously, if/when GoA news breaks in the future, feel free to start a new thread to discuss it.
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