Our Kickstarter is live! You can pledge your support here - Gates of Antares
We know we're doing something a little different from the other table top guys, and hats off to them for wisely using Kickstarter in a way that's beneficial to them. Kickstarter can be utilised in many different ways, and one of the ways is to get new ideas off the ground that wouldn't normally get the chance, which is what our kickstarter is all about.
We know that not everyone will buy in or even like the idea, but we're on KS so that we can find out. We put a long time frame on our KS so that we could adapt if we needed to and of course, because we're asking for so much money. The 300k is the minimum required to create a game (from where we are) with a decent enough miniature range which is of great quality - we ran the numbers a billion times to make sure. We thought about doing it the 20k route, but that would have meant that we couldn't have legally gone onto KS and offered the whole range of rewards that we have, which would have reduced us to simply offering the book until we got there and then only offering a couple of miniatures per stretch, all of which, we thought, would completely hamper our ability to hit the 300k we actually needed to make the game. So we put the min at 300 so that if it does come off (and fingers crossed there!) we get to make the great game we have planned.
We would have loved to have more concepts and miniatures out there, but we just didn't have the money in order to pay for that. All of the people involved have worked the last 5 months without getting paid - and I'm not complaining here, I'm happy to bet my life on things I believe in - so regardless of how much time we applied to GoA we still wouldn't have had more things to show. So we did a deal with a very kind company who said they would lend us some money to start paying some sculptors and artists, but they wanted it launched and wanted to see how it would go first. I'm happy to say they lent us the money, so we started Kev and a number of others off in order to respond to the feedback we've been having and hopefully gather some more pace on KS. It's not much money, but if we use it wisely it's hopefully enough to cover some of the main concerns and get us funded.
We get lots of comments saying we should just put more concepts out, and we do have the option of rushing things out, but to be honest, we're not really into that. We don't think you'll respond well to us doing that anyway, so we're trying to make sure that we do it right, which unfortunately just takes a little time. We do have things in the pipe now that we hope will impress and have some great updates coming through that will show you what we've been up to and give everyone the chance to play the pre-alpha game (by 18th Jan if all goes to plan!) as we know that’s a big concern to some people too.
Ultimately we're in your hands, if you decide you'd like to be part of GoA then thank you, we truly appreciate your support. If not, no worries, thanks for reading this anyway, please remember that we're just a small company right now, we're only human and we're trying our hardest to make this successful.
Hey guys, we've been watching your responses and taking both the praise and critisisms to heart, as our kickstarter progresses the number of people helping shape it has been phenomenal and we've been putting together updates as we went. Hopefully you've all taken a look at some of the concept art and greens being produced but in order to keep you best informed we've put together a compilation to keep the first post upto date.
Excellent, it's always a good sign to see an official thread for kickstarters, especially with a project like this that quite clearly relies on a lot of community feedback.
It's a shame we can't integrate some of the points from the previous thread automatically, but I'm looking forward to seeing some of those concept sculpts and a little more information as that's what seems to be holding most of the sceptics back at the minute.
Looking forward to getting into the brilliant fierce debate that's been going on in here
We'll try and answer your thoughts, questions and concerns in here so first off a quick preamble:
Some of the miniature kickstarters that have gone before us have brilliantly used Kickstarter as a great marketing tool and pre order system, but we're doing what we call a 'pure kickstarter' - in that kickstarter can be used to get projects that wouldn't normally happen, off the ground if enough people want it to happen.
This is an idea that we really can't do without enough backers pledging to make it happen, and we've added the backer development Program so that those that want to, can join in the fun & hard work of creating a new wargame universe.
We know that the 300k is a big dollop of cash, but it's set at that level as that's how much we need in order to pay for all the equipment, plastic tooling, artists, designers and modellers to actually create a new wargame universe with enough miniatures/factions/species to be able to make it fun and interesting.
We have started working already (4 months and counting!) and have 57 daily updates where we will be sharing more and more of our game as we develop it, including more concepts, gameplay videos and greens. We don't expect everyone to get involved, but hopefully over the course of our Kickstarter we'll be able to convince some of your that we are worth backing.
We are experiencing rather a high volume of traffic at the moment so please do bear with us in getting back to you
Thanks for reading
Rik (no, not that one, the other one)
Hey there Rik, glad to see the KS getting its own thread.
Something that is pretty useful is keeping the first post updated with the latest updates and concept art that is released.
Going to lay down some honesty here.
Good: The pictorial pledge levels images are awesome.
Bad: The Kickstarter page is damn long and wandery. You need to go a heck of a long way to get to the pretty pictorial representations of the pledge levels.
Good: Great art and great examples of Kev's awesome sculpting.
Bad: Very little actual concept art. Great to get community feedback but it is hard to feel like there is a solid plan at the is point in time. Hopefully this changes in the coming updates and we can get some "Getting to know you" posts on the different factions and their units.
Good: Kev White.
Bad: Kev White can do no wrong in my eyes and will make me have to commit for the Dark Energy level if he makes anything I am even remotely interested in.
Ok, keenly watching but guarding my purse strings until I see more concept art at least.
Good to see this thread here, I'm really excited about this, and I backed it as soon as I heard about it yesterday morning. When I can I'm going to try and jump into your forums and join in the discussion! I've had a browse and I really like that you're listening to people's input and taking their thoughts on board at such an early stage of the project. Good luck, and I hope it goes well!
I'm happy to back a project based on the strength of its lineup, with few details on what the final deliverable will be. Looking forward to seeing the project develop! Happy to lend a hand with bulking out the universe if you want some free gruntwork. One thing I love about 40k is the highly detailed setting, I hope GoA can do some of the same - minus 95% of the cheese.
10% done in 3 days, that's a good effort given so many people are holding back until they get some more details. Glad I got in for one of the collectors editions even sight unseen.
Dark Space Corp wrote: This is an idea that we really can't do without enough backers pledging to make it happen, and we've added the backer development Program so that those that want to, can join in the fun & hard work of creating a new wargame universe.
We know that the 300k is a big dollop of cash, but it's set at that level as that's how much we need in order to pay for all the equipment, plastic tooling, artists, designers and modellers to actually create a new wargame universe with enough miniatures/factions/species to be able to make it fun and interesting
I don't get it. If you guys don't have artists, designers, or models and you want the backers to help make the " game rules, artwork, miniature range, tactical abilities, scenery, vehicles and everything else..." what do you have?
A name and a few ideas for mechanics?
There are some pretty well-known names involved in this, but I really am not sure what I would be paying for here. It kind of sounds to me like you want the community to make you guys a product and pay for the privilege of doing so, which seems like a pretty bad value proposition to me. Am I misunderstanding you somehow?
This is the first time I've got involved with KS, as it seems an opportunity to get in on the ground floor and not simply a pre-order system for something that would have come out eventually anyway, that cuts out the game stores, like some of the other gaming KS projects.
What with it being just after christmas etc I'm basically broke at the moment and don't want to make commitments I can't fulfil, so I've just dipped my toe in the water with the £1 pledge level to show support and get involved, but I hope I'll be able to increase it in February.
I'm not too worried at the lack of concrete images and greens at the moment, simply because as far as I'm concerned, I'm not doing this to buy models, I'm doing it to get involved in the development process and invest in the future of the game. With the opportunity for my input and the established talent involved, I'm confident that there will be something at the end I'm interested in, so specific model designs aren't important at this stage.
Kingsley wrote: There are some pretty well-known names involved in this, but I really am not sure what I would be paying for here. It kind of sounds to me like you want the community to make you guys a product and pay for the privilege of doing so, which seems like a pretty bad value proposition to me. Am I misunderstanding you somehow?
Leveraging the community to help expand the system is an excellent idea - and far from a new one. No matter how much the community helps, you still need a talented core of staff to bring the whole project together and give it that quality you expect from a product.
There are some pretty well-known names involved in this, but I really am not sure what I would be paying for here. It kind of sounds to me like you want the community to make you guys a product and pay for the privilege of doing so, which seems like a pretty bad value proposition to me.
Not to me. I regard being involved in the development process and seeing how some very experienced and successful designers work, as a very big benefit. As a budding game designer myself I think the experience of being closely involved in the process will be invaluable for my own projects, quite apart from the excitement of the project itself.
They are looking for player input of what the player wants to own or would purchase. Starting up the game would you rather have 4-6 forces that players said they would love to play? Or release a bunch of forces that no one connects with?
About play testing i can't count how many times i've heard people say "so and so is broken they should of play tested it more" or "... and there is another faq". By opening it up to the community you expand the play testing group to proof read the work and suggest any changes before it goes in print. You can also put in creative input if the force is what you imagined it to be etc. It seems people have a weird notion that all play testers get paid for what they do... usually it is some sort of credit system they have for product..
I will say it again but it seems that the "kick starter morals" are only ever used when people don't like something. Kick starter is SUPPOSED to be used to fund an idea before it even gets off the ground. But people will complain if its just an idea and doesn't have any models/concept work. They will also complain if it becomes a pre order store...but only if t hey don't like the models.. =/
I will agree that more concept work would be a great thing, they are supposedly updating the site everyday so hope that they release some rough concept sketches..
Pretty much sums up my feelings so far. Right off the bat there are two things keeping me from backing this project. First is the lack of avalible rules, it doesn't have to be your finished ruleset but you have to show me something. Show me your alpha rules or your beta rules and that would go a long way. Second is that your project is in GBP, I'm not sure how much attention you've paid to kickstarter in the past but projects in none USD don't generally do so well.
Right now you have a Kickstarter page and a website with alot of words and pretty computer generated pictures. What you don't have is content.....
One last thing, this isn't the first "Dynamic Real Time blah blah blah", it's been done before and failed pretty hard.
Catyrpelius wrote: First is the lack of avalible rules, it doesn't have to be your finished ruleset but you have to show me something. Show me your alpha rules or your beta rules and that would go a long way.
Understandable, however their ability to create rules systems is not in question imo. Their goals for the rules system - a skirmish - large scale, mixed turn (I forget their term), decimal based system gives a good idea of what's to come.
Second is that your project is in GBP, I'm not sure how much attention you've paid to kickstarter in the past but projects in none USD don't generally do so well.
Do you have a source for this? It should have no impact given the automatic currency conversion.
Right now you have a Kickstarter page and a website with alot of words and pretty computer generated pictures. What you don't have is content.....
So you want them to have ready, what they need money to develop? ie. the reason kickstarter exists - to make the content after getting the money. They have the concept and some big names to show ability to produce what they're offering. I understand if it's not enough for you, but it is for me and really is the core of the kickstarter concept.
Catyrpelius wrote: First is the lack of avalible rules, it doesn't have to be your finished ruleset but you have to show me something. Show me your alpha rules or your beta rules and that would go a long way.
Understandable, however their ability to create rules systems is not in question imo. Their goals for the rules system - a skirmish - large scale, mixed turn (I forget their term), decimal based system gives a good idea of what's to come.
Past sucess does not guarantee future success.
Nothing that you've listed makes the system unique anymore. If their not bringing anything unique to the table they need to show me how their going to apply game mechanices to make something that is both enjoyable to play and different from the game systems I currently own.
CptJake wrote: However, past success is one of the biggest indicators of future performance/success.
Look at who gets promoted in most companies and gov't agencies. You don't promote the guy who fails...
While I agree in part it isn't enough to get me to back a project. I need to know more and intentions just aren't enough for me. You need to show me you've got a detailed plan about all parts of the project, from design to fufillment.
I'm not saying that eventually I won't back this project or that other's shouldn't if it's worth it to them. I'm simply saying that with the information I'm given now I'm not inclined to back this project.
@ Vain – Thanks for your honesty! good point on the long KS – should have a more streamlined version within the next couple of days. We’re working on the concept art and more right now and hope to have some stuff to start showing potentially as early as this evening (potentially!!!)
@ Tibbsy – thank you
@ Compel – see above, I’ll make it my personal goal to convert you by the end of this kickstarter!
@ Yonan – thank you! head into the backer development forums, we’re looking for info for various things right now!
@ Kingsley – thanks for your thoughts, I think the other chaps countered before I could
@pgmason – thank you for your support, and welcome on board!
@ RiTides – we thought about this and to be honest it’s not set in stone yet (see you’re having an influence already) BeGAnt was another…
@ Catyrpelius – We’re a UK company, doing it in $ would mean we have to have a USA company. You can get round that by using a shell co of course, but we didn't have time or money to do the complex legal agreements first unfortunately.
Catyrpelius wrote: Second is that your project is in GBP, I'm not sure how much attention you've paid to kickstarter in the past but projects in none USD don't generally do so well.
Do you have a source for this? It should have no impact given the automatic currency conversion.
It has an impact because non-USD Kickstarters do not support Amazon Payments. That alone would be enough to kill it for me - if I were inclined to throw money at projects with nothing to show but some big names from 20 years ago in the first place, of course.
I think, and I could be misremembering, the only option available when I backed was the Credit Card one.
Glad to see an official thread, and interaction on here as well. Looking forward to seeing where this all stands in a month, hopefully enough info gets out to get me to raise up to Starter or Feeder level.
There are various different options (in general - I don't know about GoA as I'm waiting for more info before deciding if I should pledge), I’ve funded 2 different UK kickstarters (non wargaming things) one did use a direct credit card payment and the other used PayPal. Personally I hate PayPal with a passion but that one was something I really wanted to fund so I did it using PayPals credit card payment system so that I still have credit card protection for when they inevitably mess it up.
Honestly, I don’t see a problem with the credit card system, I fail to see what makes Amazon payments any better or worse than this but to each his own and since I usually refuse to deal with companies that will only accept PayPal I can understand having a prefered payment vehicle.
As a point of interest, before I started using kickstarter I didn’t even know that Amazon had a payment service – I’m guessing this is something restricted to the USA?
Well actually Amazon is using the normal credit card system but you can use your Amazon normal account for it. This Kickstarter does accept alls major Credit Cards, so don´t worry.
And big names from 20 years ago....
Black Powder, Bolt Action and quite some rules set seem rather recent to me. Tha same goes for the artist that only recently put out some really nice miniatures.
Kev White was the name that really got me interested. Not that I don't have huge respect for the others involved, but Kev has been consistently putting out some of my favorite mini's of the past few years. It'd be very cool to get a GoA Libby.
It has an impact because non-USD Kickstarters do not support Amazon Payments. That alone would be enough to kill it for me - if I were inclined to throw money at projects with nothing to show but some big names from 20 years ago in the first place, of course.
Maybe if the KS was for a Jervis Johnson product. He hasn't done anything useful in about 20 years.
OHHH, I see what you mean. Yes, they are the _biggest names of the past 20 years_, yes. You are correct. The only way this KS could be more amazing is if Andy Chambers rolled in and developed some absurdly brilliant mechanic.
Sigh, being as this one doesn't accept Amazon payment, and only uses Debit/Credit, I'll have to pass. My bank won't let me make any overseas purchases with my card unless I call them first and unlock the card for a period of time, due to worrying that it's being stolen. I'd rather not call my bank every time I want to adjust my pledge. Maybe at the tail end of the project, after I can see what I want, I'll go in for a number that won't change, but that's the only way-can't keep calling and adjusting every week like I did with Dreadball.
Also, as I said in the now-locked thread, I'd need to see more models anyway to back. The models are the big selling point for me.
OHHH, I see what you mean. Yes, they are the _biggest names of the past 20 years_, yes. You are correct. The only way this KS could be more amazing is if Andy Chambers rolled in and developed some absurdly brilliant mechanic.
OHHH, I see what you mean. Yes, they are the _biggest names of the past 20 years_, yes. You are correct. The only way this KS could be more amazing is if Andy Chambers rolled in and developed some absurdly brilliant mechanic.
Ah jeez, I hope so, Fanticide is brilliant - fun, quick to learn, lots of tactical depth. I was mainly thinking of Starship Troopers, which is hands down the best system I've ever played by far.
Yeah, getting people to pay you for the privilege of doing your work for you is pretty neat if you can pull it off. Are there any other ideas listed? Oh yeah, percentile dice and a vague mention of an action/reaction system.
Not that seeking player input is necessarily a bad thing, of course, but usually the designers show what they have so far and ask for feedback, not ask for money with vague promises of letting you design the game.
First of all, great to see some official representation on here! Hopefully it can be a useful forum for ideas, and also a good place where people can give some feedback to the developers!
I originally wrote this reply for the other (now closed) thread, it raised a couple of important points so I hope no-one minds if I post it here!
scarletsquig wrote: It's going to be interesting to see how they handle the "faction which wins the most games gets bonuses and new weapons to use and gets new models sculpted first" thing.
Won't that make the faction which is already the most overpowered, even more overpowered?
Or possibly lead to widespread BS'ing of the battle reporting from players who want to see their faction get the new shinies first?
On the first point, as we all know game balance is an extremely delicate thing - I can't possibly imagine that they would let the results skew the balance of a game in any one factions favour, especially if one turns out to be quite effective anyway. Like you say it would lead to a snowball effect.
I'm not completely sure but I can imagine it having less of a directly tangential effect. The following is just my own idea, based on other people's comments and some of the musings on the official forums, but here we go! -
Imagine for a moment (Wayne's World style fade-in) that there is a campaign taking place for 1 calender month. Results submitted determine whether the invading force take control of the planet or not - the next month battles fought between the various factions then take place with one side perhaps having control of the 'occupying' forces - this means that they have certain force options opened or closed to reflect the make-up of their army. The 'survivors' then fighting over the next month form a kind of guerilla-warfare style army, again with certain army options opened or closed to them - they might also have missions that reflect their status (destroying communication nodes, freeing prisoners, that kind of thing), while the occupying force might have the opposite (destroy resistance pockets, etc.) - Characters in use might also be changed, in the same way that Infinity changed 'Ko Dali' in the background once she had been 'mind controlled' by the enemy forces, introducing a new miniature and rules for her (as well as changing sides!)
As I'm sure you could appreciate the scope for this kind of thing is absolutely huge - the system designers will be able to set the theme to an extent, but then you could end up with a kind of feedback where the setting changes over time according to the results. At the same time however this wouldn't necessarily make the actual gaming element unbalanced.
Regarding people BS'ing the system I think this is always going to be a problem. The most you could do I guess is to have some kind of dual-registration system, with players accounts linked to email addresses or some such like, which while not preventing fake results completely at least might make it enough of a bother that it will prevent most of it. You're never going to eliminate it completely, and there will always be losers who get a kick out of pointlessly cheating the system, but perhaps even if you achieve something like 90% accurate results then that should be able to give a close enough picture to the kind of results people are getting - rather than some kind of Russian election result.
Pacific wrote: Regarding people BS'ing the system I think this is always going to be a problem. The most you could do I guess is to have some kind of dual-registration system, with players accounts linked to email addresses or some such like, which while not preventing fake results completely at least might make it enough of a bother that it will prevent most of it. You're never going to eliminate it completely, and there will always be losers who get a kick out of pointlessly cheating the system, but perhaps even if you achieve something like 90% accurate results then that should be able to give a close enough picture to the kind of results people are getting - rather than some kind of Russian election result.
Also limit the number of 'official' submissions per email account per week. For instance, only one pairing of two email addresses per week (so I can play three different friends - submit three battle reports that week, as long as they do as well to verify that it happened, and only a maximum of those three reports since I played only those three friends)
Kickstarter has been updated with some concept sketches of various evolutions of Pnahuman within the galaxy at large, there is also a feature on the background of the BtGoA universe for flavour.
Here's something of the art, its not much for now but its a good indication of progress:
I feel like that first one should definitely have the voice of Shere Khan from the Jungle book
I really like the idea of 'pan-human' - makes me think of some of the sci-fi found in some of the Peter F Hamilton books (especially 'Fallen Dragon', with its world of post-humans who had modified all of their genomes to essentially change themselves into animals to live in the jungle )
Also, here is a question for anyone reading it: What kind of pan-human could be created on a high-gravity world, where the inhabitants have to mine in underground caverns, drink beer and ride on trikes?* Hint: Look at my avatar!
I dont get the term kitchensink sorry? Its a universe with a vast number of evolutions from humans to varying degrees of Panhuman (differently evolved, all those pictured are pans), Nuhu (Higher Humans) and Pansims (evolved from apes) aswell as other species. This gives a fantastic scope for potential.
I'm watching this with great curiousity. I don't know if I'll have the funds available to back this, and not sure if I'll want to until I hear a bit more.
Personally, in regards to the minis, I want plastics....ALL plastics. Hopefully that's something that can happen via the KS campaign. I just personally don't like metal, and I really don't care for plastic troops and metal special characters. So, if we can go all plastic....I'll strongly consider.
It's from the phrase "everything but the kitchen sink" when you talk about overpacking for a holiday or something. I'm basically starting to wonder if the setting ends up being one where anything goes and we'll see rabbit people and dwarves and demons and space knights and tentacle beasts and so on and so on. Though they all tremble before the combined might of the Squirrel People Consortium.
I believe the concept is to try and keep it as hard sci-fi as possible and still cater to a large amount of variety within the game. Bear in mind these are very early stage concept sketches and that it could be viable to change, I personally am not a fan of catman but like what seems to be a staff weapon he is wielding, the entire right hand column however look well done to me and something I am interested in.
There is actually a mistake in this pic which I've just noticed - heads will roll! - and the concept at the bottom right is actually a pansimian not a panhuman
We're exploring ideas for what they could look like at this stage, the artists have a remit of - read the copy, come up with some ideas. Once they've done that we talk about the same things as some of you've just mentioned above - what we like, does it fit within the universe etc - then start refining the concepts into better shapes and features that will form some of the style guide for that species. Only once we've done a number of iterations of that will we be happy that we're closer to something we could make into a miniature. The panhumans are at a very early stage in this cycle
Melcavuk wrote: I believe the concept is to try and keep it as hard sci-fi as possible and still cater to a large amount of variety within the game.
I just read the fiction on the panhumans/pans and there's so little in there that's hard sci-fi, I highly doubt that's really the goal. Hard sci-fi involves attention to scientific or technical detail and/or scientific accuracy and plausibility. Instead we have the modern world swept away with an untold passage of time and a mish-mash of evolution, genetic engineering, military experiments to create super-soldiers and any other explanation needed to hand wave in cat people and monkey people and whatever other kind of people you want.
If you are using technology to hand wave and justify or explain away, it's never hard sci-fi. "Transgenic engineering in the distant past" and "remnants of military experiments to create super-soldiers" are just magic words that can basically be replaced by "a wizard did it."
There's nothing wrong with space fantasy, but let's call a spade a spade.
30 minutes of sketch work unfortunately brings me no closer to supporting this $500,000 venture than the "it will be great, just donate money and YOU can help us make it!", $200 starter boxes, $100 rulebooks, or kickstarter page plastered with old models that will be "repurposed".
I thought the half million dollars being requested was supposed to create new models? How am I supposed to believe that I am an involved part of the design process if they are reusing old models? I'm mostly just flabbergasted by the combination of high costs, high goals, and compared to every other kickstarter, total lack of substance.
I hope they step up their concept art and greens sculpting over the next 60 days, because unless they can meet the bare minimum of "having products to show you" that every single other kickstarter seems able to bring, I would feel stupid giving them my money.
I thought the 're-purposing' meant that certain models would be resculpted to fit the sci-fi universe. E.g. primitive blatting stick replaced with Phased-Kinesis Carbon Tube.
It is an interesting project. The writers have good form and I like a lot of the sculptors previous work so I've backed it as far as my modest funds allow.
I just hope this is going to be fresh and interesting. Mantic seem to have moved away from playing at not-40k to come up with some interesting takes on the various sci-fi races. It is going to be very tricky to come up with anything completely original but here's hoping.
At the moment we don't have a lot to go on but almost two months to get information should be enough to get some firmer concept sketches and background ideas.
I really do hope this project ends up being a strong competitor that takes at least some of 40k's space fantasy miniature game market share away from GW.
It's about how it's being used. The presence of quantum entanglement in fiction doesn't make it hard sci-fi just because current science dealing with quantum entanglement is cutting edge. Same goes with genetic engineering.
If I make a fantastic fictional element and then explain it by saying "quantum mechanics!" in a spooky voice, it doesn't matter what the words inside the quotation marks actually are: "Genetic engineering!" "dark sorcery!" "gamma radiation!" "demon summoning!" "nano technology!"
For something to be sci-fi, especially hard sci-fi, the science has to matter. it has to have implications that are actually important. And in fiction that's just there to support a miniature game, that's no easy task. The panhuman section scratches on the surface of soft-sci-fi when it mentions how the different group accept one another (or not, in the case of the religious group), but we're no where near hard sci-fi.
It's a fun form of space fantasy though. And I hope it does well going head to head with 40k as I prefer my space fantasy to not be mired in grimdark.
I can understand why some people have been doing a spot of eyebrow-raising, whilst others have decided to adopt a "Hulk, smash!" attitude...
Speaking personally (which I try to do occasionally) I am excited by the idea of the project and the possibilities it brings - including the distinct possibility that it might actually work, by NuJingo!
I've made my pledge to the cause and am very keen to get involved in the concept stage; specifically character design, environment design and - who knows - maybe even a spot of sculpting or terrain building...
I'm more of a designer/builder than gamer, I suppose...
Well that's my first serious contribution to the development of the races - glow in the dark kittens
Up to above £40,000 now and 340 backers at the time of writing. But, this is still going to need a lot more, and I think most importantly more reasoned input from people who would like to contribute in the development.
I think well worth £1 to become a backer, and see if you can add something to the discussion. That's the keystone of this Kickstarter campaign I feel and I hope the community can try and make the most of it!
I was put off by the 'it's hard SF' claims too, as I mentioned in the other thread, because they clearly weren't true... which made me think that the game is being put together by people who have more buzz-words that they don't really understand, than they do vision, or ideas. I hope to be proven wrong, but it's a pretty faint hope right now.
I can't bring myself to be excited about this Kickstarter. The premise sounds OK, but not particularly spectacular. But with no minis (even prototypes) about, there's absolutely no draw for me.
I would very much like to get in on the development of a game, and have a hand in its evolution- and for the record- Rick Priestly hasn't put out too many dogs for games in his times at bat. He's a good egg, and one of the few Game designers I know that is consistent in quality.
I'm also with the consensous that its a heck of a project and worth a little money to get in on.
Not too jazzed on some of the races, I have a few of my own recommendations- if there is any interest.
Wow Dakka - I'll remember to link this any time someone gets upset at GW for being a miniature company and not a game company.
Luckliy we do know we will be seeing greens before this KS ends - and I hope they are absolutely terrific so everyone can be happy (though of course you can't please everybody). I really hope this will all work. Rick has a long, long long history of making games. He was doing it before 40k, and has created quite a few gems since. John S has a long history of creating, managing, or selling some of the best minis around the globe. Just look at how well Warlord Games is doing. I do not know about Rik, but he seems to be the computer/graphics (?) guy. This is different than a lot of KS that we have seen recently. This is truly a "need funding for a project type thing". Sorry, but I'm more excited to put in on this one than any of a huge group of the "pre-selling" ones that we have seen that still have to get stuff to people...in many cases many months late! I have no doubts it will be a cool game, I just hope the artist and scultptors can make this one great...after all reading this there are a lot of us who only care about the minis....
And "Hard" science fiction is very different things to different people. For me, if it does not explore social interactions/reactions or the way societies intermingle (or don't) it is almost always sci-fi instead of science fiction. Best example that most people can relate to is Armageddon vs. Deep Impact, one is science fiction, the other a sci-fi story. Of course, the one that made more money and was a bigger movie may not be the cutting edge science fiction one either........cough cough. If Rick, Rik and John can figure out a way to bring even a remote feeling of that science fiction edge it will be great.....they may do this by: special scenarios, various racial traits, racial tensions, even down right hatreds (imagine pandogs running into pancats....etc.) And hopefully they can incorporate this all into a story that can change and mutate with the flow of the game.
I'm incredibly excited about this one. In fact I jumped the gun and started the old thread as soon as I got info on this from facebook. And I backed as soon as I could.....hoping we can get enough people happy with the content and the promise of this one that we hit (or even easily hit) the goal.
The only thing about this that concerns me is the lack of initial greens. Love the idea of making the rules and stats inter compatible between mass combat, skirmish and RPG games.
Sorry, creative ideas don't start coming until I know what kind of background I'm playing with.
Well, you normally have to buy rules before you've played the game, based only on limited information from a website, back cover, or if you're lucky actually flipping through the book. Or you wait and read some reviews online, which are normally biased. In any case, given all the great and extremely fun rules Rick has created, I think this has a much better chance of being a good game than most already finished games I've paid money for in the past.
Understandably, a lot of miniatures gamers are all about the miniatures. And I can see not wanting to pledge for miniatures if you don't have any idea what they'll look like. So, if you like the idea, start out by pledging for the rules. Later on, when they've shown some concepts, you can decide if you want to pledge more for the miniatures, or use different ones, or wait until they are finished after the kickstarter to decide if you want to buy them retail. No harm in that. Though some people will pledge for the miniatures based on the history of the sculptors, like many are so willing to give the game a chance based on the track record of the author.
I've written a bit of fan fiction about some of the ideas in the background, as I understand them. Let me know what you think:
Sephareem gazed absently at his reflection in the polished stone surface before him. His bright green eyes were outlined with purple dye, and set in a long face of scaly orange skin topped with spindly shafts of quill-like hair standing up on end. He was beginning to think he might just look a bit ridiculous. This look had been the height of fashion when Sephareem had left his Concorde homeworld, but that was a long time ago now, and he thought, hoped, that the obsession with towering hair had been a passing fad.
Not that it mattered out here. He had left his mundane life on his homeworld so that he could do something more fulfilling than competing with other NuHumans to see who could best keep up with the latest fashions. Slowly, a faint suggestion, like a gentle pressure in the front of his elongated skull, forced Sephareem's attention back to the strange symbols carved into the smooth stone surface. Studying the ancient ruins on this long-forgotten world was undoubtedly of value to the shard. However, it clearly was not sating whatever unfulfilled desire had driven him to leave the comfort of his home for this life of-
He froze. There were others in the sprawling temple complex. One of the drones had just spotted them, a ragtag group of Pansimians, devolved Revers, and other undesirables. Freebooters. Pirates. They were here to pillage ancient artifacts for their own gain, in stark contrast with his desire to recover them for the benefit and improvement of the Shard. This could not be allowed. These brutes must be stopped.
Suddenly he felt a twist, like a knot deep in the core of his being, at the thought of what was to come. He had never before in his life known any kind of violence, or even the thought of it. He had spent his life under the protection of the IMTel, cradled in the safety of the Shard, but out here... Other Panhuman species might recognize the feeling as anxiety, but it was as unfamiliar to Sephareem as the markings on these ancient stones. A slight tingling intruded into the back of Sephareem's mind, and the twisting feeling was gone. Anxiety is for those who do not yet know what they will do, and worry they will do wrong. Sephareem knew exactly what he would do. He would enact the will of the IMTel, the network of intelligence that guided all, which could not be wrong.
Slowly, almost with a casual indifference, Sephareem drew his standard issue sidearm and proceeded down the crumbling passageway. The entire expedition party of scientists, researchers, and various drones all moved in concert towards their enemy. They were directed by the Integrated Machine Intelligence network formed of the countless nanomachines that saturated everything around them. Sephareem did not think about what would happen. The IMTel already had a plan to deal with the looters. He had only to do as it required of him.
Tethyr13 wrote:
And "Hard" science fiction is very different things to different people.
Nah, it's pretty much been hammered out in both academic and amateur circles for a good long time.
For me, if it does not explore social interactions/reactions or the way societies intermingle (or don't) it is almost always sci-fi instead of science fiction. Best example that most people can relate to is Armageddon vs. Deep Impact, one is science fiction, the other a sci-fi story.
There is an critical tradition of considering sci-fi as hack-work that doesn't qualify as real science fiction, so you're in good company with that distinction. The pejorative sci-fi is what I would simply call space fantasy or futuristic fantasy if space isn't involved, but higher tech is.
If they want to amp up the science fiction side of things, they need to find ways to explore the implications of the technology in their setting. Primarily through the background fiction, though also through rules and scenario design.
I'm incredibly excited about this one. In fact I jumped the gun and started the old thread as soon as I got info on this from facebook. And I backed as soon as I could.....hoping we can get enough people happy with the content and the promise of this one that we hit (or even easily hit) the goal.
I want this project to be successful. And I've come to grips long ago that truly hard science fiction hasn't been widely popular for a long, long time and may never be again. A space fantasy universe with some science fiction elements is probably the way to get the broadest appeal.
Sounds good Albino Squirrel! Actually most of the discussion going on on the forums right now is regarding the background for the various species, and especially about the PanHumans - I guess they are the concept that needs the most formation, so why not post your ideas over there if you haven't done so already?
I like this bit from the interview on BoLS
Is it an IGOUGO system along the lines of 40K?
Nope - the basic turn sequence is by alternating unit activation and individual units can be activated multiple times during a turn up to the total number of activations set for that turn - called the escalation level. As individual units take actions this can trigger reactions - such as a firefight or close quarter fighting - or opposing units can test to react with opportunity fire, return fire, and various moves including going to ground. Friendly units can also attempt supporting actions so that groups of units act together rather than in penny packets. So - no - it's certainly not an IGOUGO system - it's a fully integrated activation sequence that keeps the pace flowing and makes sure both sides are fully involved at all times.
Sounds rather like the system used for Starship troopers? Or perhaps close combat in FoW?
Pacific wrote: Sounds good Albino Squirrel! Actually most of the discussion going on on the forums right now is regarding the background for the various species, and especially about the PanHumans - I guess they are the concept that needs the most formation, so why not post your ideas over there if you haven't done so already?
This is a great point, while not everyone is happy with the concept art that is the best reason to get involved now, you can have your say over on the forums even if you're holding out on backing until you see something more to your fancy, odds are much better of seeing something you life if you get involved in the creative process.
Think of Firefly, BSG, Perry Rhodan, Stargate etc. and you still can have such a multitude of things in it that it boggles the mind.
Really? I think Hard Sci-Fi would really rule out the possibility of faster-than-light-travel. Hell, 'classic' Hard SciFi like Tau Zero essentially take their name from the troubles presented by "hard-sci-fi" space travel.
I think to most people outside of the very specific niches, 'hard' sci fi would amount to something like firefly or the reimagined battlestar. Which is probably the sort of vibe that they're going for. Not the stricter definitions of the phrase...
Truly hard science fiction hasn't been widely popular for a long time. It's a larger niche than miniature gaming, but it still doesn't have broad appeal.
Harder than space fantasy would be nice, but I don't think the background fiction to a miniature game is likely to get to the level of hard SF.
A short story about a panhuman intelligence agent getting reconstructive surgery via nanites so he can infiltrate the xenophobic religious panhuman race would be a good place to start adding some hard SF (and some soft science fiction in the form of the religio-social structure of the target) in the GoA universe though.
I see room for hard SF, but I see it being elements here and there as the game needs a broader appeal.
I think that for a lot of people, leaving aside snootiness and whatnot, when they say 'I want hard sci-fi' what they mean is that they want the feel of hard sci-fi. So they don't care much about the technological underpinnings, but they want the universe to look and feel like Aliens, which wasn't hard sci-fi - but which did feel hard (oer).
Compel wrote: I think to most people outside of the very specific niches, 'hard' sci fi would amount to something like firefly or the reimagined battlestar. Which is probably the sort of vibe that they're going for. Not the stricter definitions of the phrase...
Um. Well, Wikipedia (rightly IMO) brands both Firefly and Battlestar Galactica as 'Space Opera'. They have all the woosh of phew-phew laser guns, artificial gravity without any good technological explanation, no space-travel hazards whatsoever (even outside FTL), etc.., etc..
Don't think Wikipedia is a very specific niche.
And it's not like these series even attempt to ground things in technology in ways that would allow you say they are, perhaps, "imperfect" hard-sci-fi that's been trying to get their but took some liberties on the way. They are space-adventure stories of the most "soft sci-fi" kind. They don't want to be anything other than that.
I think that for a lot of people, leaving aside snootiness and whatnot, when they say 'I want hard sci-fi' what they mean is that they want the feel of hard sci-fi. So they don't care much about the technological underpinnings, but they want the universe to look and feel like Aliens, which wasn't hard sci-fi - but which did feel hard (oer).
Yes and no. I think Alien/Aliens was more or less a "hard-sci-fi" (of the non-ultra-nerd-variety) where it mattered, at the heart of the story of the confrontation of human vs. Alien.
Yes, they threw hard-sci-fi out of the window to set things up for the plot, such as giving the cast a FTL-jaunt across the universe into the action. But it's not integral to the story either.
But things like Firefly/Battlestar Galactica don't attempt to emulate a hard-sci-fi feel, even with liberties taken to make the story work. The head-on indulge in phew-phew laser-duels of Buck 'The Duke' Rogers in Space. The funk is what drives their stories.
[edit]
That Kheper Scale thing also puts Firefly into the category of Very Soft Sci-Fi
I think that for a lot of people, leaving aside snootiness and whatnot, when they say 'I want hard sci-fi' what they mean is that they want the feel of hard sci-fi. So they don't care much about the technological underpinnings, but they want the universe to look and feel like Aliens, which wasn't hard sci-fi - but which did feel hard (oer).
Yes I think that's what I would probably go with as well. Something like Firefly I thought of as Cowboys in Space, and more of a softer sci-fi (i.e. as was said about BGS, it was more about the plot and characters rather than the science behind it).
I could see this possibly having elements of someone like Peter F Hamilton or Iain M Banks (Culture series) - where you can tell some thought has gone into something being feasible or not, an extension of tropes that are in our own societies when extended into the future, rather than just 'X is fighting X, and has giant robot plasma arms cause it looks cool'. So, perhaps something more like Infinity (admittedly easier because it is in the near future) rather than Warhammer 40k or Warpath.
Actually, come to think of it I think this is a necessity - if there is going to be a link between player games and the affects on the game universe, there has to be some kind of causal link (and believability) in the way things work and connect with one another. The moment a hero holds up an attack on a mountain pass 'for one hundred days or nights' or 'carves a name onto the losers heart' then that impression will be shattered.
Think of Firefly, BSG, Perry Rhodan, Stargate etc. and you still can have such a multitude of things in it that it boggles the mind.
Really? I think Hard Sci-Fi would really rule out the possibility of faster-than-light-travel. Hell, 'classic' Hard SciFi like Tau Zero essentially take their name from the troubles presented by "hard-sci-fi" space travel.
Faster-than-light-travel : space time distortion, quantum tunnelling, special relativity, ...
Why wouldn't it fit into a hard scifi setting.
edit:
Oh you mean the system used in BSG, ok that's another thing :p I just tought travelling faster than light !
Actually NASA started a programm just a few weeks ago that has as its goal the development of an faster-than-light-drive. And that was no joke by NASA.
Some poeple seem to mix up todays technological level with hard scifi.
Most of the technology in BSG and and Firefly are not that difficult to explain most of the knowledge and technology we even posses today. One of our main problems today is mainly the energy source that delivers enough energy to drive such vessels. But with ITER (Tokamak, 1st generation reactor) and Wendelstein VII (Stellerator, 2nd generation) fusion reactors being tested and improved such energy sources are only a matter of time not if.
Oh and the modern BSG did not use any futuristic weapons. Nearly all weapons were ballistic systems and ships were protected by armor rather than shields. Also the vector-drive systems of the smaller ships are already in use in a more primitive form in space shuttels and SU-37/Typhoons military-jets. The battles were very reminiscent of the battles we know from WWII attacks on carriers or battleships.
So far from whats on hand? There are more then enough actions starting that we have a good jumping off point to get in on the ground floor with. Even with the conversation at hand, we can add in the Gibson, Ellison, Abrahms stuff in along for the ride.
The humanoid races seem to be evolving pretty well, yet I see a good nitch for additional races, such as the larger humans because of the lighter gravety on the plant, the smaller ones, based on the feeble diet, the scrounging space pirate scavengers, the slaver race that is looking for slave stock, etc.etc.etc.....
Not to mention the supercomputer using humans as the rats in a giant maze, and evolution experiments, or the souless frankenstien abomination.
Theres an ongoing thread going on from some holier then thou cat, but I'd like to see a few evil devil women, or some just plain arbitrarily mean ones that are just going to kill stuff ala Hostel.
Stacked to the gills, but ready to kill. Maybe even some that make a few skinsuits, or some ripped off face masks.
Maybe even some of these hard evil wenches with some cyber implants that are evolved and use the computer in a symbiotic relationship, maybe even a collective conciousness thing going.
More they attack, the harder they are to kill sort of Hulk thing going on.
All in all, there seems already a great amount of play in the discussion, and it seems also to be going in a pretty good direction as well.
All those in favour of "space fantasy" with "hard sci-fi elements" say, aye...
What’s going to happen here? Will we get hard-, nearly-hard-, or completely flaccid sci-fi? Or will we be subjected to a product that appeals to the masses?
To use one of my favourite footballing expressions, at the end of the day, whilst I am sure there is every good-willed intention of making the game “hard sci-fi”, what will probably happen is that it will end up primarily containing elements that have mass appeal. Hopefully this falls well short of battle-armoured super-human gene-enhanced space Vikings (and I am sure it will)! I reckon they'll sneak in at least some hard(ish) sci-fi.
At the end of the end of the day (eh?) presentation is Number One: it needs to look good. So, the miniatures need to be [expletive deleted]-ing awesome, the rulebook has to be superbly laid-out, with pant-wettingly incredible cover art, superb concept designs, the stories need to be written to a very high-calibre, no spelling/grammar mistakes etc etc and so on and so forth blah blah blah…
Whilst I – like most, I imagine – have some reservations, I am in fact very keen on the project and the idea behind it. The road ahead will no doubt be long and arduous (and paved with fools, cynics and those nasty little unoriginal ideas), but I’m up for walking it.
I'm having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around the 'online' concept here:
If, as they say, how those 'online' campaigns go will dictate what models come out, who has access to new stuff, etc, what is to prevent a massive 'runaway leader' scenario similar to 40k, where 80% of your people are playing a single race (Space Marines) that always gets updates, new toys, etc, and the other 20% are left languishing for new stuff (Eldar, Nids)?
I love the 'notion' of the online world wide campaigns, but I'm still just a bit confused by it all. Maybe I'm just thick.
Also...and I hate to be 'that guy'.... but how are the gene modified races in this game different than the ones done for the Nomads in Infinity?
Regardless, I'm interested. I'll need to see more before dropping some cheddar, but I've got it starred.
There's no particular reason that it would have to be structured as 'winning faction = all the new stuff'.
Maybe a 'losing' faction just gets pushed in a different direction. More guerilla, low tech units as they lose territory.
plastictrees wrote: There's no particular reason that it would have to be structured as 'winning faction = all the new stuff'.
Maybe a 'losing' faction just gets pushed in a different direction. More guerilla, low tech units as they lose territory.
I had not thought of that. That's a really great point!
In concept, I'm really digging it. I just need to see more minis.
plastictrees wrote: There's no particular reason that it would have to be structured as 'winning faction = all the new stuff'.
Maybe a 'losing' faction just gets pushed in a different direction. More guerilla, low tech units as they lose territory.
That could definitely work, other options could include new units developed to 'counter' certain enemy tactics, after all nothing drives scientific progress quite like warfare. Or since they will be releasing the campaign sections as chapters they could always make it so that a faction that's been doing less well up to a certain point has some sort of advantage in a given area of battle, not necessarily through ingame mechanics but driven through story. For example an enemy pushing into someone else's territory could have to gain two wins to equal every one of the faction who's territory they're fighting in to represent the sheer population density of the enemy faction in that area.
We've played games so far with up to forty models a side - divided into about eight units each - and the system works well at that size. The aim is to create a game that has the dynamic of a raid, or a localised action, or maybe an encounter betwen two fighting contingents. I'm thinking of those contingents as 'companies' but the way the background works they are really semi-independant fighting bands of about 30 individuals plus a certain amount of supporting kit - such as heavy weapons and vehicles. I imagine that once we have the opportunity we'll be playing some bigger game to make sure they flow smoothly - but the scope of the conflicts is along those lines.
I wont lie. I've always wanted to do a GW campaign that allowed me to use everything they have from Battlefleet Gothic down to a small Necromunda style raid.
Give me the option to do one piece of my battle as fleet warfare, move it into a boarding action skirmish, and then let me do a planetary assault with a larger force in one cohesive rule set and sirs, you have yourself a true believer.
As to the monthly "chapters:" I Think this could be really cool as a digital magazine of sorts.
I definitely think that a wargame where you are desperate to get another game in because you and your clubmates are reading the website, and seeing that something really critical is going down that requires you to help swing it, would be amazing.
If it worked, if it all was balanced, and if they manage to really connect the playerbase to the website, then you could have something truly next-gen. You'd want to be looking at maps on the website, reading short snips of fluff, bookmarking faction-specific subpages where it lists all of your potential warzones and why you should be trying to win them. So that instead of Antares being just a wargame that you play with your mates, it feels like you're actually part of an ongoing serious thing with repercussions.
Basically, if they pull it off then they could give it some of the feel that EVE Online manages. Without, you know, the mining.
The more indepth version is that online updates will be available for the rulebooks regularly and as a feature of the constantly evolving game, there wont be a cyclic re-release of army or corebooks but instead a steady build of new and changing information available as a download so that player armies are constantly maintained and not rendered obselete waiting for a new print book. Its a nice idea for a system to ensure that they can account for all factions in balance, and rectify something based on player feedback if they do get something wrong.
The consistent online presence, and interaction is one of the concepts of this project that most appeals to me. With the proliferation of smartphones, tablets, and reading devices, having a regularly updated, portable rulebook/unit information available for download after initial purchase is something that with this game seems quite possible. It was something that Privateer has tried with War Room in a way, and while it's launch left a somewhat bitter taste due to all the problems, I still think the idea is a good one.
Tethyr13 wrote: Wow Dakka - I'll remember to link this any time someone gets upset at GW for being a miniature company and not a game company.
Luckliy we do know we will be seeing greens before this KSends - ...
Here's my 2 cents: Though I am generally supportive of this project, and hope that it turns out great (and would be interested in getting into it if it does) the fact that they didn't have greens BEFORE the KS began to show is really very disappointing, and, I hate to say it, unprofessional. I cannot commit any real cash for only concept sketches. Even just a couple of greens would be better than none, and would certainly have generated more interest and pledges.
If we see some really great greens before the KS ends, I may still get on board, but greens now would have been much more effective in getting me, and I'm sure many others, on board. They could have postponed the KS start date a few weeks to have even a couple of greens. I'll keep an eye on this one, but with much less enthusiasm.
I agree with the above to an extent. I wouldn't say that it's unprofessional, I think it just potentially suggests a lack of commitment to a project. As much as people seem to be turned off by projects that have all their stuff together and "would happen anyway" those really demonstrate that the company/individual is commited to the project and has invested in it personally, even if that just means time in the case of one man show sculpting KS.
On a completely different note, I think the downside of the "living game world" notion is that it might alienate late comers who feel they've missed out on too much. I'm only speaking from my own attitude towards global campaigns etc. where I've tended to be all in or all out.
Folks you should get away from the notion that every KS is only about the miniatures. This one is about the game first and the minis are an additional level, but not the main focus.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Folks you should get away from the notion that every KS is only about the miniatures. This one is about the game first and the minis are an additional level, but not the main focus.
That's an odd viewpoint to take with this one, I think.
I think the best way to not alienate new players to a game is for the Living Gameworld to not have an end , for example starting from the beginning we still have the background rick and the team will write for history, starting 6 months in some of the other players battles are now in that history, but all factions are still viable and interesting, boundaries have shifted and alliances may have formed but you are still entering a vibrant and shifting universe.
From what Rick has had so far GoA seems to fall into the catagory of not having an end. GW campaigns might get near to the end and you can see planet X has fallen too far to chaos for your to make a difference, but in GoA its the universe shifting and reshaping, hopefully without annihilating a faction completely.
I assume that the lack of greens is because they want to get input from the backers about the various races. Once they have that they can make the figures.
Edit: I mean they have some concept ideas and some models they want to 'repurpose' but how close are those going to be to their final concept? How much could the aliens or weirder Pan(whatevers) change based on backer input? DSC might have this all fairly well bedded down and it is just the rules and backstory they will be seeking input on. OTOH races might get significantly altered over the next few months.
Rick Priestley has designed some wonderful games over the years, as well as coming up with the magnificence (to many of us ) that is the 40k universe. He must have been very frustrated not being able to do anything truly new at GW over the last ten years or so - really looking forward to seeing what he can create when given a blank piece of paper, no real constraints and the benefit of 30 years experience.
A big strength of his, sometimes overlooked, is that his rulebooks are very entertaining to read. Even the crunchy rule bits. Not sure how he manages that. I'm going to be sad if this one never sees the light of day.
Don't really agree with the view that there is no substance to the kickstarter or that the team want us to do all their work for them. There are no greens yet admittedly, but Rick and the team clearly have a strong vision for the universe and the gameplay and the way it will all work. We just get a chance to add to it. The website has some great details of their thoughts and I'm sure more will emerge.
I agree, I think they do want a little input from gamers to concentrate on the most popular designs. Also, from what it seems, they have got some good sculptors to sign on, but it seems that the work may be freelance. Since this is not a "pre-order" to help them expand a range (like Dreadball or Bones or Kings of War) or a more blatant preorder (like zombicide or others) I'm not really surprised they would want the feedback before they had the sculptors working on the greens.
Except for basics like the War Drones (which seems to be working right now), they are looking for some level of gauging interest. Pan-simians and Pan-felines are versions they have put out there (with a few different artwork images to find out which one people like more). Some people don't like the "furries", but more likely the Revers or one of the other factions will appeal more. The entire concept is to make it huge, so just about every variant could exist (an easy entry to use whatever company's figure you might want), while of course trying to come up with the "defined" look for the factions they will represent and sell.
Of course they will want people buying the minis from them - so they want to make them as "satisfying" as possible to the most people. This KS is trying to get some of that "defining" done through customer feedback before finalizing and sending to the freelance sculptors. It is why they are on KS. And why they have stated greens will be forthcoming and more artwork as the KS goes on (for 56 more days...) And with enough feedback they can get the art to match up with the most popular versions.
I don't think that Rick could work on this concept and not be committed to making it happen. They have a large (300,000 pound) goal, and may not make it. But they are going to get a lot of feedback and even if they fail, I expect they'll be back with another KS to make it all happen. But one of the problems is that the thing in both concept and material will be huge. In order to "flesh" out the whole universe at once is impossible but to get the scope right they need to make TONS of models just to get the "flavor" at the start. I don't think the "feel" of the game could be even close if they don't have more than two factions ready to go at launch. And I'm sure that would be beyond most of our budgets to start from scratch.
But once again, I point out that lots of people (on many different forums but Dakka too) get upset when GW states it is a mini company first and a game company second. The cry for greens, wip shots, or more artwork make it more obvious why they became successful using that as their guideline (not to mention the historical nature of the minis first games second in their own timeline. Remember 40k had almost every fantasy model included to help sell more minis - even if that made it even more space fantasy than science fiction setting back then.)
And I LOVE cool models (and own more than I ever should - from lots of manufacturers), so I'm not put off by anyone feeling that or stating it. I just find it odd for some of the posts (in the other thread too) to have such a negative connotation because of it. I understand stating you want more - but to almost bad-talk the entire concept because that is missing seems to be off the mark to me. For me, I'm very excited, and doing a bigger pledge because it seems very cool to me.....
Of course, I can't wait to see the greens. I can up the budget a little more to get the really cool ones!
And here is the update in full for anyone who hasn't access to the Kickstarter. It's rather large but well worth reading!
A heartfelt thank you to you all for backing us and believing in what we're trying to do. We have much still to do, but with you behind us, we'll work even harder!
Today's update is all about Balance, as there have been a fair few of you wondering about how we'll manage this within our Real-Time Dynamic Gaming Universe. So from the man himself:
MAINTAINING BALANCE IN A CONSTANTLY EVOLVING UNIVERSE
When it comes to realising our dream of a real-time games universe there are many things to consider– and naturally keeping a balance within the different factions is one of them. What happens if one faction becomes overwhelmingly powerful? Won’t the winner just grab all the best kit and quickly become unassailable? Questions along these lines have popped up on several forums as well as on our own DSC forum where I have posted on the subject of course. Well – I’m a little surprised that ‘game balance’ should excite folks quite so much – what about dynamic game play? What about player interaction? What about the internal tension of the game with those soaring highs and crashing lows? Then there’s narrative content, adventure, stories of battles and daring do! Sure game balance is important because a game has to be a game and not a foregone conclusion – but as a designer I know that making a fair and balanced game is achievable – at least within reasonable limits. Making a great game – making an exciting game – a game that compels – which invites innumerable strategies and is worth the hours and thought that players put into it – that is the challenge!
But balance it is Balance between the factions is the matter at hand – how to make sure that the universe evolves in a fashion that enables all the factions to continue to take part in a way that is rewarding and ultimately fair. Well, the chief tool that lies to hand (stop sniggering at the back) is the humble points value – or credit limit – call it what you will. Any material upgrades that become available will have a game value – and needless to say the more potent an upgrade is the more it is worth, and in games fought to a standard points total this will obviously change the make-up of a force without necessarily making it better. It gives a different option – opens up a dependent tactic in some cases – or it improves one aspect of the force but only at the cost of surrendering something else. So, regardless of what new kit we decide to introduce, there’s no reason for it to unbalance the game.
There is another good reason why new kit won’t unbalance actual play – and I blush to confess it – because I won’t let it. If by some terrible mischance (perhaps prompted by a sudden fever or sense of despair resulting from some new revelation of governmental incompetence) we should make an error in a points value or game value, then it is easily changed. Easily – because the upgrades will be managed as online downloads – and I’m imagining a downloadable card format here – so there is no need to endure the tedious tyranny of a printed supplement that won’t be updated for four, six or ten years depending upon some incalculable whim. In other words – yes I know it’s practically impossible to introduce new stuff and get everything exactly right all of the time – so, safety net the feature! Make sure you can change it quickly. Better still get it right and save yourself the embarrassment – but at least you know it can be sorted if necessary.
Again – I have said this before on the DSC forum – balance within the game is best achieved by designing within the parameters of the original design. It helps if you know what those are of course – and I fear that many games do suffer from power creep out of nothing but ignorance. If you understand the basic design parameters: the spread of stats and modifiers, the rigid linking structures that cannot be broken, and soft structures that can; then all you have to do is stick to those guidelines. Break them occasionally and knowingly. Introduce counter-balances to offset factors that take stats out of the ordinary range for a type. Don’t put balancing mechanics into soft mechanics that are mutable by special rules. These lessons and many more beside are there to learn from – so learn from them. Nail down the design parameters at the start – make sure than new additions sit within those parameters.
Okay that’s three basics for balance of kit and upgrades – then there’s the balance between the factions. Hardly fair if one faction leaps out in front and picks up all the joy, leaving the other guys playing a supporting role to the star performer. So what do we do about it? Well, again there are ways and means, some of which come down to the episode design – and by episode I mean the campaign or game – and some of which come down to how the data is collected and applied. I know that this latter subject has roused some curiosity, and I shall come to that in a moment, for now let’s look at episode design.
The real-time universe will run as a series of episodes and the intention is that there will be a number of episodes running concurrently. Some will be designed to last for a good while (whole wars for planets) others will be a single event lasting only a day (raids or assaults) and many others will be somewhere in between. Some of these episodes will bridge to other episodes and some will be stand-alone affairs. Within the major episodes there will be zones or areas that have to be fought over and won by one faction before the next tier is opened up, and that tier might itself lead to a further tier, and so on. It’s a basic tree structure starting with many zones, crunching down to fewer, and eventually crunching down to one and a result. Upgrades and bonuses are available within each tier and within many of the zones – and mostly these will be upgrades that are specific to that episode – so information, tech, allies, or whatever we care to include - which remain as options to players for the duration of that tier or episode. These bonuses are internal to the campaign, and in this case balance becomes a question of campaign design. This is why we aim to start off with short episodes by way of proofing the system. I’m not going to go into detail about the episode structures, except to say that the idea is to sort the factions by priority with the campaign, giving the leading factions preference of choice, but spreading the bonuses around. Upgrades and bonuses that endure beyond the episode – and these will be less common– will be handled online as already described. In addition, in most cases any upgrades won by one faction will, in time, spread to other factions, and this could be activated by results in further episodes, for example.
All right, nearly done here, only one more topic to go and the weary reader can wend his way to bed and a well-earned bout of shut-eye. This one is about the data handling – how do you set this up to make sure that results can’t be manipulated by the players? Well, the short answer is you can’t stop individuals fabricating results if they are determined enough to try. Results will need to be validated by both parties, but no system we could come up with could possibly stop players inventing games and putting in results 100% of the time. No. Now this is something I once found myself discussing with the chap who is in charge of Electron Arts Online RPG development, who is a good friend of mine and whom I have worked with on various projects over the years. So, I says to Paul… for his name is Paul… ‘how do you make sure people don’t try to skew the results’. And Paul looks pityingly upon me and says… ‘you don’t you fool… it’s all in how you sift the data’. And the secret is: one, don’t sift the data the same way all the time but vary the system, and two, don’t tell anyone how you sift the data! So – yes – we won’t necessarily treat all data equally all the time – so trying to manipulate the overall result will be quite difficult. There is also common sense at the end of the day – and there is no substitute for a suspicious mind and a cold eye.
Realistically though, with this KS sitting @$50k in three days, not even a paycheck after the holidays (i know pledges are charged at the end but psychologically it seems to be a big deal to many people...) and their obvious dedication to keep involved and actively communicat, and shape this in a way to appeal to as many backers as they can as the core of the project, there's no way this would even come close to failing.
I wrote up a quick first draft of a story idea I had that incorporates some of the ideas on the message boards for the Hansa Nairoba character, and also some of the ideas for PanHuman species. Let me know what you think of the idea.
Hansa Nairoba sat hunched over the table with the pressure of his responsibilities weighing heavily on his thoughts. Soon he would once again be taking risks and making choices that could lead them all to great success, or to early graves. Or anything in between. He sat in the officer's mess, such as it was, of his DSG class freighter. The room could hardly be said to live up to the "officer" classification, but it could certainly be called a mess. It had a very lived in quality to it, almost like a childs bedroom with toys covering every surface. Hansa never could have enough toys, though most of his were the strange relics of long-forgotten conflicts.
Slouching in his chair, Hansa hardly seemed an intimidating figure. He wasn't particularly tall as it was, even for a Rever. Nor particular well-built. His head was shaved, and he sported a black beard speckled with silver. He was the very definition of a Rever. You could almost imagine him fitting right in with the prehistoric pre-humans who first set out to explore the stars. Although, of course, noone could know what they really looked like.
Hansa looked around the table at some of the officers, or as some might call them ringleaders, of his Freebooter band. They seemed carefree as they enjoyed a typical meal of ale and curried gruel paste. He had known them a long time, trusted in their skills, and would soon lead them into the unknown once more. The three with him currently were all PanHumans, and all very different.
Standing at the table to his left was Nevik, one of his trusted Lieutenants. Nevik was a ferocious fighter with incredible reflexes and, thanks to his PanHuman anatomy, capable of great speed. His legs were short in proportion to his body and set a bit off to the side, and he never seemed to completely straighten them. His arms were relatively long and powerful, with thick meaty hands and digits. When the need arose, he was capable of running on all fours at incredible speeds, which had come in handy on many occasions. His aggressiveness had proven it self in innumerable skirmishes, though his temper could sometimes be unwelcome, and made it difficult for anyone to call him a friend.
In stark conrast, in many ways, stood J'Stalla who towered over them all. His massive, bulky, and somewhat short-limbed frame was covered in shaggy hair. Everywhere they went was too warm for him, and he was always glistening with sweat. The species of his world had adapted over long millennia of unrelenting cold to have many layers of insulation protecting their vital organs. Even his head looked like it had two layers of skull to keep his brain warm. And his personality was just as different from Nevik's as his body was. Hansa probably wouldn't have called J'Stalla friend. Not because it wasn't true, but because it would have been redundant. J'Stalla was everyone's friend. While many people dealt with Hansa and respected his abilities, he knew few of them has much else positive to say about him. But Hansa doubted an ill word had ever been spoken of the jovial J'Stalla. And he also had the virtue of being able to blast away with weapons that would look oversized on most tanks.
Then there was Smythe. His variety of PanHuman had even more disturbing features. All of his limbs were long and spindly, with extra joints. His arms, legs, fingers, and, much to the benefit of Hansa's nightmares, his toes, were all extremely long and excessively articulated. This made him extremely dextrous and agile, and creepy as hell. He didn't have much of his neck, and in the middle of his wide head sat a cluster containing an untoward humber of beady eyes. Many of them could see in different spectra, in a far greater range than Hansa could imagine. All of this make him very good at sneaking around and assassination with his favored bladed weapons. Unfortunately, it also made him very good at his favorite hobby, which was terrifying the crew with his "hilarious" pranks. Hansa would unfortunately never forget the time he got about halfway through a bowel movement before spotting Smythe hanging from the ceiling of the latrine stall, at which point he involuntarily finished the job forthwith. Hilarious.
A voice came over the comm network, mercifully pulling Hansa from his thoughts. "We're approaching the target area," came word from the bridge. Hansa paused for a moment, preparing himself to go through it all once again. "Well, let's roll the dice," he said as he stood up. They all knew what this meant, and they always wanted to be there for the coming moment. One really never got over the spectacle and excitement of it. The others took final sips or bites before making their way to the bridge behind Hansa, following him instinctively, as men had always followed him.
They arrived on the bridge to see Xander, their pilot, at the helm as usual. Another interesting PanHuman specimen, Xander, and the generations before him, had lived on a gas giant which had been colonized using massive artificial cities, which eventually grew to the size of continents. Colonizing a gas giant didn't sound easy, but the incredible abundance of them in the galaxy has evidently made it worthwhile at some time in the ancient past, and the successive generations had adapted to their inhuman environments. Coming from a place where sound was transmitted much more easily than light, many gassers relied much more heavily on their ears than their eyes. Xander's ears were large, sticking up a foot over his head, and could move to point at what he was listening for. His eyes, on the other hand, were small and black, and covered with large puffy lids of scaly skin. Despite his decreased visual acuity, Xander was an excellent pilot, and a wiz with any kind of technology.
All of them gazed out the view-port at thousands of colossal cylindrical towers, each a hundred miles across and thousands of miles long, stretching back into the abyss beyond sight. The Gates of Antares, the nexus of portals which allowed interstellar travel throughout the galaxy, and perhaps beyond space itself, if some theories are to be believed. "You were right, as usual, Captain", said Xander as he heard Hansa approach. "The area appears clear of hostiles."
This area of the hub was often traveled heavily by the Vorl, but Captain Nairoba had told his men that he'd gotten a tip the area might be clear. And for the time being, it appeared to be so. Before them lay countless gates that hadn't been traveled by man in many lifetimes. Almost anything could lay beyond any of them. Countless possibilities were now presented to Hansa, but ultimately he would have to choose the path they would take. As always, he would trust his instincts. His cast his eyes over the myriad Gates before him, like a tumbling pair of dice rolling across a table, the air heavy with a tense expectation. When they came to a stop, his fate was decided.
"That one" he said, marking his choice on a control panel. Xander acknowledged the order and set his course and increased speed. As all on the bridge looked on with a mix of excitement an uncertainty, the ship set off towards the unknown.
Bolognesus wrote: Realistically though, with this KS sitting @$50k in three days, not even a paycheck after the holidays (i know pledges are charged at the end but psychologically it seems to be a big deal to many people...) and their obvious dedication to keep involved and actively communicat, and shape this in a way to appeal to as many backers as they can as the core of the project, there's no way this would even come close to failing.
You have a point. I've never heard of a Kickstarter starting strong on the backs of the true believers and then petering out when it became clear the creators couldn't provide any real hook to casual gamers or newbies. Nope. Couldn't happen.
To go back on topic, I wonder what would happen if enough pledgers demanded a faction of limited-edition, large-breasted space strippers...
@Bob
...yeah, except this does not have an established fanbase and the folks behind it are actively working with their community here. Not exactly TTB material, now
How can you say it doesn't have an established fanbase when most of the excited posters are ...fans... of Priestley or White, and pledging based on their involvement. Are you telling me there would be anywhere near this level of interest in GoA if those names weren't attached?
Once everyone who is willing to go all-in on a new Priestley concept have pledged, this project will stall unless they get their act together and deliver something concrete. A green. Alpha rules. A set list of factions, including background and several sketches each. Something.
Well it is one thing being a fan of it for the sake of it and being a fan of the guys because they nearly always deliver good games (if they are allowed to).
Judging from the comments most of it are in it because of the strength of the idea and because they know from former experience that the guys are willing and capable of making happen what they promise.
I suppose that is an important distinction. I do hope this succeeds and becomes a great game with an entertaining backstory and tons of well-sculpted, affordable plastic miniatures. I have my doubts based on what I have seen, but maybe I'll be surprised.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: How can you say it doesn't have an established fanbase when most of the excited posters are ...fans... of Priestley or White, and pledging based on their involvement. Are you telling me there would be anywhere near this level of interest in GoA if those names weren't attached?
I don't think anyone in their right mind would claim that! Of course lots of people may have blindly pledged because of the names involved, but I think ultimately a lot more will because GoA contains some bloody good ideas.
Once everyone who is willing to go all-in on a new Priestley concept have pledged, this project will stall unless they get their act together and deliver something concrete. A green. Alpha rules. A set list of factions, including background and several sketches each. Something.
This is starting to happen now, head over to the forums
BobtheInquisitor wrote: How can you say it doesn't have an established fanbase when most of the excited posters are ...fans... of Priestley or White, and pledging based on their involvement. Are you telling me there would be anywhere near this level of interest in GoA if those names weren't attached?
I don't think anyone in their right mind would claim that! Of course lots of people may have blindly pledged because of the names involved, but I think ultimately a lot more will because GoA contains some bloody good ideas.
Once everyone who is willing to go all-in on a new Priestley concept have pledged, this project will stall unless they get their act together and deliver something concrete. A green. Alpha rules. A set list of factions, including background and several sketches each. Something.
This is starting to happen now, head over to the forums
What you see as bloody good ideas I see as a lack of content and direction.
I'm not going to back this project because they want my input to shape the game. Because truth be told they don't care what I have to add, they only want to know what I'm willing to buy. However if they show me something that I'm interested in, i.e. actual content, then I'd be willing to back this project.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: How can you say it doesn't have an established fanbase when most of the excited posters are ...fans... of Priestley or White, and pledging based on their involvement. Are you telling me there would be anywhere near this level of interest in GoA if those names weren't attached?
I don't think anyone in their right mind would claim that! Of course lots of people may have blindly pledged because of the names involved, but I think ultimately a lot more will because GoA contains some bloody good ideas.
Once everyone who is willing to go all-in on a new Priestley concept have pledged, this project will stall unless they get their act together and deliver something concrete. A green. Alpha rules. A set list of factions, including background and several sketches each. Something.
This is starting to happen now, head over to the forums
What you see as bloody good ideas I see as a lack of content and direction.
I'm not going to back this project because they want my input to shape the game. Because truth be told they don't care what I have to add, they only want to know what I'm willing to buy. However if they show me something that I'm interested in, i.e. actual content, then I'd be willing to back this project.
Well, said!
And what is all this "please note that these miniatures are NOT part of the GoA universe - though they may be at some point!" about? Is GoA a miniatures' recycling system or what?
Plus, I do not want to see what these people's potentials. I am not recruiting them for my company to be interested in their CV. They ask me to put my money in a project of theirs, but whether this project exists anywhere but in their minds is unclear to me.
I can't get how "I have an idea! Guys, give me your money to tell you what's about!" is a pure kickstarter. No money from me, till I see something more solid than games industry celebrities marketing!
Today we have a new kickstarter update with progress made on the limited edition Hansa model aswell as insight into progress the team is making in other fields:
Today we have a various bits of information to share with you, first up is a look at some of the upcoming updates we're planning:
Hansa Model - When we announced GoA we also opened up a section in our development forums asking for feedback on Hansa the Exclusive Kickstarter Miniature - in line with our backer development program. I'm glad to say we had a great response with over 77 replies so far and so have initiated work on him. We briefed Kevin White this morning and he will be starting work on the model in earnest on monday. Just like we said we would, we're going to show you the process of development in various updates over the next 2-4 weeks as he creates him. So you'll get to see how Kev goes about creating his great models and get graphic detail on each stage. We're extremely happy to be announcing this so that we can hopefully start to put some minds at ease and actually just can't wait to show you his work!
Turn sequence - Lots of people have asked about how our game plays, so we're about to start sharing with you the various elements we have. We playtested the pre-alpha game last night in John's War room over pizza, and Rick is busy putting the finishing touches to the turn sequence from that session so that we can share it with you. We'll also open up a section in the development forums for you to discuss and feedback.
Custom Army update - there have been a number of questions on how these work, what are the choices etc so we're busy putting together a more detailed description so that you have a clearer picture of what figure options you will have, customisations, weapons and so on
WarDrones - We're going to open up a section in the development forums for you to start discussing these beauties. They will play a big part in our universe so lets get into them
Weekend Service - we've been working round the clock over the last 4 weeks as we prepared for launch and then launched our Kickstarter, all of which has been hugely exciting for us so we haven't even noticed really, but our families have and are starting to miss us a little. So over the weekend we'll still be sending out updates and answering direct questions through KS messages, but you probably wont see us as much on the forums or comments sections. Hope that's ok, it's a marathon this one, no good sprinting the whole race - normal service will be resumed first thing on Monday morning.
Singularity Feeder Special - don't forget if you want a singularity feeder special, we're opening up 100 more of this tier at 5pm (UK time) today!
Well, some prefer pre-cooked stuff, other like to cook with those that have proven time an again that they can provide us with a delicious meal. To each its own.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: How can you say it doesn't have an established fanbase when most of the excited posters are ...fans... of Priestley or White, and pledging based on their involvement. Are you telling me there would be anywhere near this level of interest in GoA if those names weren't attached?
I don't think anyone in their right mind would claim that! Of course lots of people may have blindly pledged because of the names involved, but I think ultimately a lot more will because GoA contains some bloody good ideas.
Once everyone who is willing to go all-in on a new Priestley concept have pledged, this project will stall unless they get their act together and deliver something concrete. A green. Alpha rules. A set list of factions, including background and several sketches each. Something.
This is starting to happen now, head over to the forums
What you see as bloody good ideas I see as a lack of content and direction.
I'm not going to back this project because they want my input to shape the game. Because truth be told they don't care what I have to add, they only want to know what I'm willing to buy. However if they show me something that I'm interested in, i.e. actual content, then I'd be willing to back this project.
So, putting forward a hypothetical situation here, I'm guessing you perhaps like the idea of a persistent, developing game universe? Me too, but sadly that's going to take some serious money to create, otherwise surely they would have brought it to the table ready to sell. As far as I see it, some big game-development brains have come up with some great ideas for a new system. They have a good idea about the games creation/game mechanics (Rick + the other guys), they have the sculptors and designers ready, and the ex-computer game guys ready to implement the real-time systems. Now, they need it to be financed, and the gaming community to help make those financial decisions on what to make - and that's where the KS comes in.
Pacific wrote: Sounds good Albino Squirrel! Actually most of the discussion going on on the forums right now is regarding the background for the various species, and especially about the PanHumans - I guess they are the concept that needs the most formation, so why not post your ideas over there if you haven't done so already?
I like this bit from the interview on BoLS
Is it an IGOUGO system along the lines of 40K?
Nope - the basic turn sequence is by alternating unit activation and individual units can be activated multiple times during a turn up to the total number of activations set for that turn - called the escalation level. As individual units take actions this can trigger reactions - such as a firefight or close quarter fighting - or opposing units can test to react with opportunity fire, return fire, and various moves including going to ground. Friendly units can also attempt supporting actions so that groups of units act together rather than in penny packets. So - no - it's certainly not an IGOUGO system - it's a fully integrated activation sequence that keeps the pace flowing and makes sure both sides are fully involved at all times.
Sounds rather like the system used for Starship troopers? Or perhaps close combat in FoW?
This sounds like the Order/ARO system from INFINITY.
Pacific wrote: So, putting forward a hypothetical situation here, I'm guessing you perhaps like the idea of a persistent, developing game universe? Me too, but sadly that's going to take some serious money to create, otherwise surely they would have brought it to the table ready to sell. As far as I see it, some big game-development brains have come up with some great ideas for a new system. They have a good idea about the games creation/game mechanics (Rick + the other guys), they have the sculptors and designers ready, and the ex-computer game guys ready to implement the real-time systems. Now, they need it to be financed, and the gaming community to help make those financial decisions on what to make - and that's where the KS comes in.
I think there's more to it than money.
There's no point stumping up a load of cash through investment and remortgaging your house and the traditional stuff that people do to bootstrap if the whole thing hinges on an ongoing community supporting a living game.
To have a living system they need a really solid foundation for their community and the best way to get that is to create engagement. Not just 'I will sign up to that because the minis look good' but people who have involved themselves in the design process, who will be advocates, who will love it like they made it themselves...because they kinda did.
The bit that I think is hardest, beyond rules and greens: Fostering that collaboration and allowing it to have influence whilst also coming to an end result that is coherent, considered and, well, awesome. That needs a strong design lead, who they have in Rick. The bit that worries me is how they manage that community and they are making a start with their moderators, who could well be defining the culture for the fan community itself by the way they moderate. That's what I'll be watching most closely since I trust we'll see great starter rules, awesome art and sweet greens before the end of the KS anyway.
There's over a month left, surely you could wear your optimism hats for a little while longer ;-)
It's the reason the Dreadball Kickstarter was so great, because it instantly created a worldwide network of players, so that leagues were forming before the first box arrived (Especially since they releases the rules pdf to the backers for free before pledges shipped).
Same with this game. There will be a worldwide network of players who have been alpha/beta testing the game all year so when it launches, there's whole communities of gamers who already know the rules and will be participating immediately.
judgedoug wrote: There will be a worldwide network of players who have been alpha/beta testing the game all year so when it launches, there's whole communities of gamers who already know the rules and will be participating immediately.
It's rather brilliant.
Yes, for sure. It is brilliant for a company that is releasing a product, yes it is.
And it is not just this game, many other games does the same thing, and videogame companies too.
They are so cool that they accept people to PAY for testing their unfinished products, for helping them and then release the final version.
Am I the only one who sees this kind of manouver a bit annoying. I mean... don't you think that we, geeks all over the world, are being completely used by companies in order to, not only playtest for free, some people are even paying for playtesting!!!
You know... that old fashioned system that was about releasing a product when it was already finished...was that so wrong? are we moving to this era of "you have the privilege to test my crude ideas" without any benefit? Is this becoming the standard system of releasing a game?
I can tolerate a few grey areas in a rules system, I can understand a new edition of a rulebook, I think that the feedback of gamers is crucial... but...
I have a few friends working as game-testers in the videogame industry and they are being fired, because we, geeks, are so slowed that are willing to do their job for free.... and some slowed geeks are even willing to pay for it.
Don't you think that a game should be heavily tested by the company that is releasing it?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: How long do you think Priestley, White, et al will pay attention to GoA before becoming bored and moving on to other projects?
about 21 years judging by his creation and term of service working with 40k.
THOSE JERKS.
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BobbaFett wrote: Don't you think that a game should be heavily tested by the company that is releasing it?
Absolutely! Maybe for a year, with a huge amount of playtesters finding and exploiting loopholes that can be fixed before final publication.
Either that, or they could do the phenomenally successful Games Workshop method, where Matt Wardor Robin Cruddace scribbles down some cool stats while sitting on the toilet and GW publishes it the following week, and then the gaming community playtests it after it's printed and published.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: How long do you think Priestley, White, et al will pay attention to GoA before becoming bored and moving on to other projects?
about 21 years judging by his creation and term of service working with 40k.
THOSE JERKS.
He spent 21 years on Bolt Action and another 21 years on Hail Caesar and another on Black Powder??? He must be at death's door! No way he's got another 21 years left!
I guess he made it pretty clear he was committed to this project long-term when he showed up with a binder full of names and a briefcase full of napkin sketches and unrelated minis.
Really, I want him to succeed, too, but it really just embarrasses me when everyone acts like this is the thuper therial project Kickstarter and Priestey have waited their whole lives for. They just didn't bring their A-game and it shows. Doesn't mean they won't win, but it does mean you can't tell me they're better than Jordan.
On BP and HC he was asked to write the rules for others and according to my knowledge he still plays it and is involved in it so it might still take some tome befor he stops playing them. Also in a way he has been playing them way more years than most imagine. At least BP and HC are directly derived from Warmaster and that game has quite some years on its back.
The problem with many games out there today is: They are to the liking of the designer but that might not be the truth with many gamers. You can go either high risk and try this approach and might probably sink a lot of money in it that you never will recover or you directly ask the gamers in an intelligent way what it is they want.
The most important thing for a new game these days is a good set of rules. Dust Warefare would not have been that succesful if the rules were not avove average, though the minis are still above standard. Rick has quite some of the rules written, but there is a point in game design where they need to be tested. And believe me the best way to test it is to let as many people play the game as possible. A limited playtester group will only get you limited results.
Minitures in contrast are more expensive to produce, but they are an aditional layer and not the founding stone. Get the founding stone wrong and then try to replace it... that´s near impossible.
Really, I want him to succeed, too, but it really just embarrasses me when everyone acts like this is the thuper therial project Kickstarter and Priestey have waited their whole lives for. They just didn't bring their A-game and it shows. Doesn't mean they won't win, but it does mean you can't tell me they're better than Jordan.
And it embarrasses me that people cant have some faith and patience. Instead of nay saying all the time , wait and see what they release during the KS and if/when it fails then you can be like 'well they failed because....'.
There´s nothing DSC can do about this. They would either need to open up an american daughter company or Amazaon would need to change its politics. Neither is going to happen soon.
Guys, we get that you are not interested in the kickstarter, but why do you feel the need to drag down the official thread with your own negative opinions stated repeatedly? If you don't like it, fine, but I don't understand why you want to start arguments with those who do. I don't have any interest in the Kingdom Death thing, but I don't go into the thread to complain about it.
And it embarrasses me that people cant have some faith and patience. Instead of nay saying all the time , wait and see what they release during the KS and if/when it fails then you can be like 'well they failed because....'.
Anyone can be a smartass after the fact. You know that investors will research the viability of a business before they put money in it, not after it has already crashed and burned, right?
There's plenty of clues written between the lines here to figure out how the project will look in the near future. For example, every faction having access to Wardrones for the simple reason that DSC doesn't expect to have the resources to produce more than 1 plastic kit in the foreseeable future. Which is a freakin' travesty given the many all-plastic kickstarters in the past few months.
Charles Rampant wrote: Guys, we get that you are not interested in the kickstarter, but why do you feel the need to drag down the official thread with your own negative opinions stated repeatedly? If you don't like it, fine, but I don't understand why you want to start arguments with those who do. I don't have any interest in the Kingdom Death thing, but I don't go into the thread to complain about it.
This is the 6th crowd-funding I've backed, the other 5 were no different, so unfortunately you just have to grit your teeth, shake your head and wade through it.
There is nothing inherently bad with negative opinions, that said repeating them isnt exactly going to help. At this stage DSC are being amazingly receptive to feedback so posts of "I dont like it because..." are an opportunity for them to engage and effect a change if possible. Aslong as people are polite and give feedback (good or bad) in a concise way then it only goes to further the project and help it reach its goal.
I am psyched about this project and would hate for it to be brought down by people repeatedly expressing negative opinions, debate is fine.
There's plenty of clues written between the lines here to figure out how the project will look in the near future. For example, every faction having access to Wardrones for the simple reason that DSC doesn't expect to have the resources to produce more than 1 plastic kit in the foreseeable future. Which is a freakin' travesty given the many all-plastic kickstarters in the past few months.
Ahem, many of them are resin and not plastic, which is cheaper to work with.
Every faction using drones is mainly because most races have a common technological ground, not mainly because they do only one kit. And they never mentioned that they won´t do another plastic kit in the foreseeable future.
It is one thing to check whether a project is viable. But some folks complaining here seem more to be complainin because their now-favored system gets some competition. The first is applaudable, the second to be ridiculed.
Interestingly I do not find many complainin here on the DSC-forum stating their fears. That leaves the question: Why if they are so interested in the game as they claim to be, are they not using the means available to them to make sure it turns mor in the direction they want it to be taken?
At this point there's really no point in sharing my opinion besides making myself feel better. Complaining on their forum won't magically give them the ability to mass produce plastic.
I honestly wish them all the best, it would be really nice to have a viable alternative to 40k in the same engagement size (which seems to be what they're aiming for) but it looks like this particular project is currently a few years away from being worth looking at.
lord_blackfang wrote:At this point there's really no point in sharing my opinion besides making myself feel better. Complaining on their forum won't magically give them the ability to mass produce plastic.
Regarding the material being used, here was a post from Rick on the main forum:
We're currently aiming to use a mix of plastic, metal and resin - because that's what we do at Warlord and we're used to the versitility. We are planning on making the WarDrones in plastic to start with - and most of the other figure in metal - and then the funding level will pretty much determine whether we do extra models in plastic from the start or resin or metal. For example, we have ideas for different kinds of vehicles which we'd like to make in plastic - but we'd need to hit some of our proposed stretch goals before we can afford that. But we could also make the same vehicles in resin initially - as we have with the Warlord range for example.
My preference would be for metal over resin for individual figures - but that's just me I guess!
So by the sounds of things as much as possible in plastic for the unit types, but the exact amount will depend on the funding level this KS receives.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:How long do you think Priestley, White, et al will pay attention to GoA before becoming bored and moving on to other projects?
In the back of my mind I have the feeling this is what Rick might have wanted 40k to be, and perhaps would have done had today's communications technology existed in the 80's. He had been doing historical projects for years (and in fact got them off the ground for GW), so you could say that Black Powder et al are just extensions of that really. Also, by their very nature historical projects will simply not be anything like as involving in this - having to create a game universe, the concepts within it, design the mechanics for that, and then to link it into the realtime development of that universe. Contrast that with producing a historical ruleset - absolutely loads of those are released constantly, put onto the market and then exist there for fans of historical wargaming to pick up at leisure.
From the comments on their forums, KS releases etc. it sounds like the whole bunch of developers are working pretty hard with this - I certainly don't think it's some kind of half-arsed diversion to give them something to do while crappy Xmas TV is on, only to be thrown to one side when they get bored as you seem to be implying.
Discussion threads about a Kickstarter should be open to the whole range of opinions on the project. It's not off topic to express an opinion that's not positive. And the posts of the last page or so have actually been fresh and new.
Like pointing out the one plastic kit they've said will be included is universal to all factions. Or pointing out that Rick Priestly recently has a track record of producing a set of rules and then going on to the next project. And really, how much post-publication support do you really expect? Will this whole "living world"/online support thing really require his full time attention? It'll probably be very little work compared to actually writing the core rules.
agustin wrote: Or pointing out that Rick Priestly recently has a track record of producing a set of rules and then going on to the next project. And really, how much post-publication support do you really expect? Will this whole "living world"/online support thing really require his full time attention? It'll probably be very little work compared to actually writing the core rules.
Unless he lives on air I imagine income would determine that. If it succeeds and has the player base it needs to sustain the business. There's all the ongoing episode stuff not to mention further product development. I wonder how Dust or Infinity occupy themselves with so 'little work'? And I'm sure all GW and PPs employees are bored out of their minds.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: How long do you think Priestley, White, et al will pay attention to GoA before becoming bored and moving on to other projects?
about 21 years judging by his creation and term of service working with 40k.
THOSE JERKS.
He spent 21 years on Bolt Action and another 21 years on Hail Caesar and another on Black Powder??? He must be at death's door! No way he's got another 21 years left!
I guess he made it pretty clear he was committed to this project long-term when he showed up with a binder full of names and a briefcase full of napkin sketches and unrelated minis.
Technically, 21 years for 40k, 2 years of development for Bolt Action, at least 13 years on Warmaster/Black Powder/Hail Caesar.
Thankfully the binder full of names was also a binder full of rules (which they are currently testing). I think that briefcase is full of the knowledge of what works and what doesn't work (did I mention 21 years of 40k!)
If there's any man in this industry who has delivered time and again, that's Rick Priestly. Having faith in someone who is constantly a success and has developed many people's favorite games is all that many people ned to click that 'back this project' button.
And you're right, how dare a Kickstarter that has miniatures show it's backers related works. They should just have a picture of a series of question marks and a note saying "we don't know what these sculptors can do at all!"
Really, I want him to succeed, too, but it really just embarrasses me
You do? Doesn't sound like it. And how are you possibly embarassed that OTHER people are supporting something that you don't care about?
agustin wrote: Or pointing out that Rick Priestly recently has a track record of producing a set of rules and then going on to the next project. And really, how much post-publication support do you really expect? Will this whole "living world"/online support thing really require his full time attention? It'll probably be very little work compared to actually writing the core rules.
Unless he lives on air I imagine income would determine that. If it succeeds and has the player base it needs to sustain the business. There's all the ongoing episode stuff not to mention further product development. I wonder how Dust or Infinity occupy themselves with so 'little work'? And I'm sure all GW and PPs employees are bored out of their minds.
It also sounds like some people don't understand what contract work is. Did Black Powder die the moment Rick Priestley sent the final copy to Warlord? Nope, their developers (specifically Peter Brown) then produced The Last Argument of Kings, the first supplement to Black Powder.
Unless he lives on air I imagine income would determine that. If it succeeds and has the player base it needs to sustain the business. There's all the ongoing episode stuff not to mention further product development. I wonder how Dust or Infinity occupy themselves with so 'little work'? And I'm sure all GW and PPs employees are bored out of their minds.
You've inadvertently pointed out something interesting: Warlord is shifting business models with this project.
Their previous games have been a complete rulebook and then maybe an expansion. Bolt Action, in their partnership with Osprey has multiple expansions, none of which are written by the original authors of the game.
If the principal designers for this game are going to continue to be involved in a major way, it'll represent a shift in Warlord's approach.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wanted to add:
If the Wardroids make good stand ins for Space Marines, they may be one of the smartest things to make as the first (and right now only) hard plastic kit that's part of this project.
Here's hoping their posability and appearance gives them a broad appeal.
agustin wrote: You've inadvertently pointed out something interesting: Warlord is shifting business models with this project.
Their previous games have been a complete rulebook and then maybe an expansion. Bolt Action, in their partnership with Osprey has multiple expansions, none of which are written by the original authors of the game.
If the principal designers for this game are going to continue to be involved in a major way, it'll represent a shift in Warlord's approach.
Hasn't Rick written both expansions for Hail Caesar?
agustin wrote: I thought he wrote one of the expansions, but not both. Could be wrong though as I don't have both of them.
It just seems like he's involved in a lot of projects. Perhaps this one will be him actually working on one on a dedicated basis?
I know he wrote Biblical & Classical lists for Hail Caesar, but not sure of the Medieval supplement.
He's been working on the Warmaster system since 1999, from Warmaster through Warmaster Ancients, Black Powder and Hail Caesar. I don't think longevity is a problem as some are trying to make it out to be. Or any problem at all. Does Rick have a history of abandoning projects? He's exploded with creativity and activity as soon as he left GW. Probably had a lot of ideas he kept under wraps for fear of them being owned and summarily killed by GW (such as Warmaster 2.0). In the 2.x years since leaving GW he's had some contract work for Fanticide but has mainly kept stable with Warlord, who are all ex-GW employees anyway.
Actually after the first batch of boxes/codizes for 40K Rick wanted to go with 40K in a direction that is more similar to GoA but was not really allowed to. So you can say that this game has been on his radar for a very long time.
Actually quite some games out there are what happens when former GW designers are free to do what they want.
FoW was developed and even offered by former GW staff to GW but GW declined cause they thought it would not generate enough money.
Confrontation and AT-43 werde developed by former GW staff that were unhappy with the way GW handled WHFB and 40K
Starship Troopers even was originally ment to be the blueprint for 40k 3rd but was declined and Chambers than took it and refined it into SST. Some element of it can even be found in Dust Warfare.
And it embarrasses me that people cant have some faith and patience. Instead of nay saying all the time , wait and see what they release during the KS and if/when it fails then you can be like 'well they failed because....'.
Anyone can be a smartass after the fact. You know that investors will research the viability of a business before they put money in it, not after it has already crashed and burned, right?
It's more in keeping with what Kickstarter is meant to be. We've been a little bit spoiled with the projects so far. Kickstarter jump up and down about how they are not a store, that they're about supporting creative ideas and developing them and, crucially, that there is risk: You may be investing in something that does not exist yet and potentially could come out not how you wanted. That's the trade off for supporting a creative idea that otherwise could never be.
I get that it makes people reluctant to put money into it, of course it will and it should! But it's only odd because so many mini companies have basically used it as a pre-ordering system.
As for business models: Oh absolutely. I'm waiting for the subscription model ones, and the freemium. It can only be a matter of time.
Hi All - just joined up as you will see - but long time lurker. Thought I'd just say a few words about my new project and comment on some of the observations that have been made here. Watched with interest and paid attention to I may add!
Yes I have designed a lot of games over the years - in greater part for Games Workshop - but bear in mind I had numerous jobs and roles during my 28 years with the company. For a large part of that time I was either relatively junior (so I worked on what I was told to work on!) or I was too senior (and only worked on side-projects and took no part in the main work of the studio). In between, when I could have worked on anything and pretty much determined what GW made, that was a very short period during which I ran the studio as well as being part of the management team - roughly 1992-1998. Even at the end of that period decisions about what we made were starting to be heavily influcenced by the sales and financial side of the business (rather than the creative side in the studio). Of course, when I was studio manager I also had the studio to manage - so writing games, doing all the support personally, organising all the promotion for a game and doing everything myself wasn't really practical. I had other things to do - like developing the plastic ranges, launching the 'big box' format for games (with plastics for the first time), launching the army book and codex formats (new back then) and such dull stuff as managing production, print, packaging, buying, the licensing team, Warhammer Records (part of the studio!) and even more tedious stuff such as admin, recruitment and so forth. I still managed to design a few games in my spare moments - editions of Warhammer and 40K as well as Necromunda spring to mind.
So - the point I'm trying to make here is you shouldn't read into the fact that I've worked on lots of projects is any indication that GoA is some here today gone tomorrow affair. Yes I have undertaken some historical projects for Warlord - I thought I might as well - I was unable to work on what GW considered 'competing' projects for a period after I left. That was a contractual issue I couldn't do anything about. Historical proejcts were not considered to be competing. Lucky for the Perrys I say!
I see GoA as practically my last chance to do something I actually own - I don't own 40K although I invented it - and I receive no royalties or payments on account of any of the things I created for GW - from games such as WH and 40K to 'IP' such as the Imperium, Space Marines, and so on. With GoA I intend to retain the copyrights as would the author of any work of fiction - for example - and from that I hope to manage an income that will support myself and my wife over the next twenty years (and I'm 54 this year so let's not tempt fate!). I've been designing games and creating worlds since I worked with my friend Richard Halliwell to create the Reaper game in 1977. Beyond the Gates of Antares will be the first thing I've done that I actually own. So - no - I don't intend to give up on it! Sure we might expand the universe with other games - all of which will roll in to the real-time online metagame - but this one is for keeps.
So - committment - yes 100% - and we know there is a lot of hard work ahead and sometimes things won't go as quickly or as well as we'd hope. It is a dream. But it's not a bad dream though I say it myself. With the help of our backers it's a dream I know we make make happen. Please take a look at our website here at Dark Space Corp http://www.darkspacecorp.com/ and back our kickstarter if you can - we're doing really well so far but the more we can raise the more quickly we can move forward with plastics, full online metagame development, extra sculpting and the unending process of support and innovation.
Thanks for posting Rick. I've been gaming (on and off) since the late 80's and your work has given me some of my best experiences - frankly anyone fantasy wargaming today owes you a living! I think the criticisms about the amount of rulesets you've worked are absurd - no one carps when Pratchett keeps writing books (or a train driver keep driving trains, and so forth). I've already backed GoA and I'm looking forward to seeing the rules develop.
All that said, the initial funding goal for this campaign is pretty high - closer to many videogame KS targets than recent miniature campaigns - and how the money will be spent is a little muddy. Is it largely for the unglamourous back end - the web presence/game feedback/loop - and associated staffing? Marketing to get the game on shelves and selling beyond the KS early bloom? Biscuits? I think a lot of people would be happier to contribute (and invest emotionally) if there were a better presented plan for a lasting and sustainable community.
Alright. I stand corrected. You and the guy with a squat avatar have pretty much convinced me that this project has legs and deserves more attention. But be careful with me; I've been hurt before. ( I bought a lot of Ex Illis stuff.)
As the Kickstarter progresses, I hope to see a lot of fleshing out to this universe because it definitely has potential. Most importantly, though, I hope to see some nice miniatures and pledges that focus on them. I'll put in a token pledge for now so that I can participate, but can go in for a bit more when the setting and the models start taking off.
Here we go then Rick. You have more people willing to pledge but you are going to have to get some more concepts up, some very rough versions of rules (pre alpha?) and some greens (even if its just the war drones). I know we still have a long way to go and a lot is still quite malleable, but I feel the sooner this is done the more pledges you will get. You got mine from day one, im at Singularity Feeder Special plus t-shirt. Also as a quick question it might be quicker if you got some digital concepts up (if any of your guys can do it) and get some quick prototypes via 3D printing, surely there must be someone here in tbe UK that can do it?
And Rick has added an update about game turns. There still WIP and says they seem to hold up to playtesting but still need some work (well thats the whole point of Alpha and Beta rules). I reslly like the look of them they seem quite interesting, though I think you need to limit the amount of times a unit can activate per game round (like DB you have 6 players but only 5 actions and 2 actions can be spent on one player). Anyway head over to the forums if you are intrested to get some mord ideas of what is going on.
Point taken - I do understand that people expect to see visuals or at least are reluctant to invest without seeing something concrete - and that's something we'll be trying our best to address as we go forward. We do have a way to go yet!
Insightful first post Mr Priestly. I've read a few of your online interviews and often concurred with your views on game mechanics. Furthermore, I did of course greatly enjoy the 1990s output of GW. Consequently, I'm watching this with great interest.
Rick Priestley wrote: ...people expect to see visuals or at least are reluctant to invest without seeing something concrete...
Especially those war drones... We have one piece of artwork which doesn't really give a detailed impression - There must be something more you can post without too much of a hassle? Some concept sketches, WiPs of concept sketches if need be, half-finished sculpts... anything
Oh darn it, my mate ended up talking me into giving in. That's 1 more 'double action feeder special' down.
I was wondering if there would be an add on to upgrade to the 'collectors edition' of the rulebook though. Or maybe some equivalent of that for the double...
Best bet is to back the 190 for the singularity feeder special, and then get the addon second feeder box. That way you get your collectors book and one feeder in the singularity.
Personally I joined in from the start for one sole reason, I am eager to see what Rick Priestley can create without the "shackles of GW" on him, I enjoy game design tremendously and I have an extended collection of games I never intended to play because I collected the rules.
For me the lineup of names is promising, all are accomplished veterans in their field, this does not guarantee anything of course, but I am quite eager to see what they can deliver.
So for me, its worth supporting because if only for the experiment.
Now as far as miniatures, game system ectr, while I do understand fleshed out things are appealing to the eyes, I think this is what kickstarter is about or should be about, not finished products in virtual preordering but rough things that will go to be refined, personally I would be more interested in the big picture, games overall system direction, games universe IP and miniatures release structuring, not how the miniatures or a single miniature will look.
Personally I am hesitant if I should join the site and give ideas on the game, I would really like to see what mr Priestley can create without my personal bias in it, I for example beleive that 40 miniatures per side and/ or any vehicles are way too much for a 28mm wargame played in a 4x6 board.
I liked that latest post. It is a very modern feel to the rules; both players taking part, units giving the impression of being able to react. I also like the idea of the tide of war ebbing and flowing, with a low roll sucking some of the energy out of the fight, while both sides hunker down and try to recover, and a high roll leading to carnage and a push forward.
I also posted a poll on the official forum, prompted by this update, concerning death and morale as the main determiners of combat status; I'm curious to know which way people lean, and perhaps it'll help the rules man to know as well!
Its a solid game turn structure, two things I do not like is prior sacrifice for support actions and the 12" firefight range, they could be more modern the CIL is quite nice rule but again in my opinion needs some work.
The main thing preventing me from going to singularity feeder up from normal feeder is the fact that the limited edition rulebook is essentially slapping on another £65-70 just to get a second copy of the rulebook when the feeder box already contains one. I'm guessing these are meant to sit on the shelf and look pretty but I've always just taken my limited / collectors edition stuff along to games and used it, afterall where's the fun if you can't show it off a little right!
Have the GoA crew thought about doing the whole 3d thing like DFG did with their plastic Eisenkern? It worked really well for them, the renders were great beforehand and I was surprised to see the plastics turn out so accurate to them.
Yonan wrote: Have the GoA crew thought about doing the whole 3d thing like DFG did with their plastic Eisenkern? It worked really well for them, the renders were great beforehand and I was surprised to see the plastics turn out so accurate to them.
That would involve different artists for the sculpts, all listed are traditional artists.
Everyone has access to the forums. After the KS is finished only backers will have access to the development forum. ATM the development forum is open to all.
Note that the rest of the forum is a normal forum and is open to all.
As stated above, most of the artists (and I think most of Warlord's plastics) have all been made the "traditional" way of 3ups/pantograph/mold. Warlord already are equipped for this, I do not think they are fully set up for a 3d digital workshop, and it would take some money to make this happen. However, I would not be surprised if eventually they also developed this.
And Rick's post is why I am in at the Feeder Hansa+ - knowing the job he has done before, and thinking about the job he'll do if he is given the chance for him to actually OWN his creation.
@BobtheInquisitor - I understand being "burned". But Rick has been one of the "Rocks" of gaming for a long time - and the success of projects like BP and HC he did as contract work should attest to that. Lots of Historical gamers are playing those rules because they are good - even if he did not write the supplement. Also THIS IS NOT EXILLIS! The concept Rick has put forth for Episodes and results may seem nebulous, but is completely different than lets play a computer game on a real table - which ExIllis always seemed to me. Glad to see you've been convinced to give it a shot.
Everyone has access to the forums. After the KS is finished only backers will have access to the development forum. ATM the development forum is open to all.
Note that the rest of the forum is a normal forum and is open to all.
Please make sure you sign up to the forum with the same email address as your Kickstarter account. This will be used to determine whether you retain access to the development section after the kickstarter closes.
I grabbed the last Early Backer Feeder Special. It is only a minor savings but after KD:M any savings will help .
I have faith that the creator of 40K and Warhammer will not allow his brainchild to be anything but great. Not to mention I like the idea of a network of gamers from around the world influencing the game's universe .
Being that this game is Rick's brainchild and what he most likely wanted 40k to be I have no doubt the models will be of the highest quality.
Everyone has access to the forums. After the KS is finished only backers will have access to the development forum. ATM the development forum is open to all.
Note that the rest of the forum is a normal forum and is open to all.
Please make sure you sign up to the forum with the same email address as your Kickstarter account. This will be used to determine whether you retain access to the development section after the kickstarter closes.
Is that really a requirement? I login to kickstarter through facebook rather than having a kickstarter account, so how are they going to match that up to my account on the DSG forums?
Everyone has access to the forums. After the KS is finished only backers will have access to the development forum. ATM the development forum is open to all.
Note that the rest of the forum is a normal forum and is open to all.
Please make sure you sign up to the forum with the same email address as your Kickstarter account. This will be used to determine whether you retain access to the development section after the kickstarter closes.
Is that really a requirement? I login to kickstarter through facebook rather than having a kickstarter account, so how are they going to match that up to my account on the DSG forums?
Good question. I'll try and find an answer for you on that one... (while I check...) I would assume that if you have used Facebook to sign up, you just need to use the same email address as Facebook instead. The integration between Kickstarter and Facebook is likely to pass this information across, otherwise you'd never get any update emails from Kickstarter.
I don't think it's an issue for the time being. The blurb on the forums says...
Currently open to all, these are our open development forums where we'll be guiding you through the development process as we (and YOU) make the game.
This is gonna be fun!
This area will become locked and only accessible to Backers after our Kickstarter campaign (PLEASE USE THE EMAIL YOU REGISTERED WITH KICKSTARTER TO REGISTER WITH US)
I've just confirmed with Rik that if you've signed up to Kickstarter using Facebook, use the same email address that you use for Facebook notifications when signing up to the GoA forums.
If you've already subscribed to the forum with something else we can sort that when it comes to securing the dev forum access at the end of February, so it's not a big deal.
Sorry this is a bit of a late post, but as no-one else has mentioned it a further detail on some of the races/factions involved:
Hope everyone had a great weekend!
We're all nice and refreshed thanks to some sleep and seeing our families again, so its time to get back to business.
We have lots of interesting updates to share with you this week, including the start of Kev's Hansa modelling and some more details on the initial figure list we'll have for launch so lets get into it with this:
AN OUTLINE OF FACTION FORCES
Concord factions - CoCom strike units are recruited and provisioned by the CoCom and have a military level of equipment - because all Concord fighting troops are volunteers (or in effect mercenaries) they tend to comprise Revers, various types of Pans - mostly from within the Concord but not exclusively - ditto types of Sims - and a significant element of sentient machines notably WarDrones. Concord exploratory and mission specific units are more likely to be mercenary units (effectively warbands or professional hired fighters) and have a more variable but individual level of equipment and fewer sentient machines. NuHu can appear in both - but have a role of 'special advisors' and sometimes as technicians or investigators. For example, a mission might be to accompany a NuHu survey team to a newly discovered world to project it whilst it conducts a cultural analysis of the native population, a bio-assessment, or some such task.
Isorian faction - the Isorians are essentially a breakaway group of the Concord and they are similar in respect of how the forces operate.The difference is that the Isorians have direct contact with a different group of alien and have developed some unique technologies that are incompatible with the Concord (for various reasons - but mostly I think of this as a giant 'software bug'). This includes Isorian phase-armour - which is the basic armour type for the military arm of the Isor.
Freebooters - Shard and ExCon - these are traders, gunrunners, occasional mercenaries, criminal gangs, and working adventurers - in other words guys whose prime motivation is to look after themselves. I have made these two separate factions corresponding to those who work within the Concord and those who don't - but I'm tempted to amalgamate them, as I'm not sure there's enough essential difference. In the meta-game some of the episodes would invite the Freebooters to enter results for one of the other factions -and they would pick up the benefits from the faction they support. This would neatly divide Freebooter factions anyway, and would enable Freebooter players to 'play the field' - making them really mercenary and opportunistic - which I rather like! Anyway - mostly Revers but also Pans, Sims and renegade aliens - some sentient machines but not universal.
Determinate - I currently have this as one faction in the game - but really it's representing a loose alliance of mostly Pan civilisations that maintain their independence outside of the Concord and Isorian Shards. Their forces would be mostly made up of the Pan or Sim type specific to one world - and might have a military or mercenary type of organising depending upon type. The potential here is for a huge number of distinct armies - as well as mixed 'allied' forces for players who prefer to mix - but some of the Determinate forces will be extreme isolationists - such as the Gwar. To start with we'll make models for Determinate forces that are less rabidly specie-ist (is that a word!) as otherwise we have to make very large numbers of models to facilitate play. There is obviously the potential for us to divide Determinate forces into separate factions - but the players can drive that i.e. if enough players want a 'Gwar' faction then the Gwar will go it alone.
Vorl Orde - the Vorl - and most pure alien species - will have forces of that species - these might include mercenary human types in some cases - but not on the whole. The Vorl shock troops are A-G troops (anti-grav) and these are the troops most likely to be encountered in military type conflicts. I am picturing the Vorl as quite a militarised race – divided into a number of Orde which might occasionally fight amongst themselves, especially where the Prime Orde (if that is the term) is weakened in some fashion.
So I think what we are seeing here is a general outline of how the different factions are comprised in the background universe.
- The 'Concorde' are essentially the main faction, which can comprise of lots of different types of unit.
- Isorian Faction are similar, but have a unique and differentiating 'alien tech'.
- Freebooters are again similar to the above, with a kind of 'Firefly/Millenium Falcon' vibe, and with the ability to 'play the field' (although not in the sense it is usually meant in - perhaps! )
- Vorl Orde - the only true alien race? The description makes me think of things which are perhaps insectoid, or else have a society that functions in a particular way. perhaps like ants/wasps - a communal society, but also one where the warriors (and therefore faction) can be divided?
It looks also like there will be a lot less of a hard and fast divide between the way the different factions are set out - certainly we know this from the Wardroids at least, and the talk of modelling opportunities (and add on bits?) which alter according to which faction you play.
I think another really interesting thing here is the mention of 'Episodes' as to how some of these factions will work in the game - especially the Freebooters who can work for either faction. I like the sound of some of the missions also - research on alien worlds etc. (who no doubt run into an enemy faction there), will give a great deal of scope for varied forces, and for also adding a depth and complexity both in army lists (might include non-combat units?) and also a 'mission' beyond 'everyone set up 24" apart - shoot each other until 1 remains"
Also looking forward to the first images of 'Hansa', whenever that might be! Hopefully not too far away!
For those of you that are work blocked, here's the image from said update with the first piece of Kev's work on the Hansa model. He will keep showing previews of the work as it goes along.
Looks like a fantastic start and the first kind of concept of weaponry in the game, like the sleek look and hope it continues through the miniatures. Looking forward to seeing more developments on this model and the rest of the range.
The Freebooters are a collection of rabble pirates into a mercenary army/fleet who would sell their services to the highest bidder or act in their own interests to secure wealth/ships/arms/stuff. Essentially anything from murderous pillages, fame seeking mercenaries, or rogues and outcasts grouped together for survival and profit. (thugs, mercs, rogues, pirates)
The determinate is made up of independent factions defending their homesteads, they are the small colonies with no desire to be forced into someone else's empire, the farmers defending their homestead, the xenophobes fighting against foreign influences and the nanite-phobic paranoid in sterile suits in ships. Essentially grouping together to stand a chance against two pushy empires (Isorian and Concord) who would seek to integrate them into something they want not part in. (militia, private armies, variety of tech levels)
I didn't know the space Confederacy was made up of Boba Fett types.
Joe Browncoat: "There are things you don't know about me, Dottie. Things you couldn't know. Things you shouldn't know. You don't want to get mixed up with a guy like me. I'm a rebel, Dottie. A loner."
Sergeant: "Alright you maggots, shut up and get in formation!"
I think the issue is it's not clear what faction your actually referring to.
A mercenary faction is hardly a strange or new concept and and the Determinate is a Rebel underdog faction a loose coalition of diverse worlds which holds the potential to "promote" sub factions from within the Determinate to full factions.
KarlPedder wrote: I think the issue is it's not clear what faction your actually referring to.
A mercenary faction is hardly a strange or new concept and and the Determinate is a Rebel underdog faction a loose coalition of diverse worlds which holds the potential to "promote" sub factions from within the Determinate to full factions.
Freebooters - Shard and ExCon - these are traders, gunrunners, occasional mercenaries, criminal gangs, and working adventurers - in other words guys whose prime motivation is to look after themselves. I have made these two separate factions corresponding to those who work within the Concord and those who don't - but I'm tempted to amalgamate them, as I'm not sure there's enough essential difference. In the meta-game some of the episodes would invite the Freebooters to enter results for one of the other factions -and they would pick up the benefits from the faction they support. This would neatly divide Freebooter factions anyway, and would enable Freebooter players to 'play the field' - making them really mercenary and opportunistic - which I rather like! Anyway - mostly Revers but also Pans, Sims and renegade aliens - some sentient machines but not universal.
Sounds like teamwork to me. You can always trust the discipline and sincerity of the men behind you, unless you think they'd be able to salvage something valuable from your corpse.
Honestly, I'm just really sick of the whole Pirates, Smugglers, Bounty Hunters, Assassins chic, and I just can't buy into the whole "honor among thieves" thing, let alone in a setting that claims to be hard science fiction. The technological effects of the setting on society are well-developed, but there's a faction based on the appeal of Disney movies (Pirates otC, Star Wars)? Maybe if they all work for Space Keyser Soze. Maybe, at the end of the day, I'm just the kind of guy who liked Boba Fett better when he died in the Sarlacc pit and liked Mal better when he was just a bitter outlaw raging against an uncaring, ambiguously moral Space North (before the movie validated his obvious bias).
Then again, it worked for the Deathstalker series. That was hard sci fi, right? :V
The more I think about it, the more this den of thieves with hearts of gold makes sense. Financial sense. I know a dozen fandalorians cosplayers alone who would dive right into this.
Forget I said anything.
Also, there should be a steampunk faction and a zombie race.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS: All but one of the factions (The Orde) fields mercenaries already. You can easily have your Hammer's Slammers fight your Space Expendibles teamed up with Space Mafia troops if that's what you want. You wouldn't even need a pure Mercenary cut-throat Maverick faction to do it.
The background is mostly good, but I think making Firefly/Han Solo a major faction kind of misses their point.
I don't think that they are an united faction. The Freebooter/Determinate factions look more like "army classes" than true factions.
If it's played like this, and not as if there is a coherent society of smooth criminals, then I'll be totally OK with it.
Was Priestley talking about the background of the factions, or the background of the types of skirmishing units you can choose?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Agamemnon2 wrote: No, you don't come across as confused. Bitter and spiteful, maybe.
I said I loved the gun and liked the background, except for one faction. That's bitter and spiteful?
People then pressed me to explain, the enablers.
I want the game to be good. Is the best method for accomplishing that to limit one's feedback to cheers and "yes sir"s?
On a more positive note, I love all the far-future Iain Banks, Peter F. Hamilton, Dan Simmons and post-singularity flavors already apparent in the fluff. I want to see more of that. Less WWII in Space and more "This is what Skynet is thinking," please.
We'll I've called the different basic groups ‘factions’ - and remember Rik is from the video games industry where the term gained its currency. I think of them as essentially a point of entry for the player collecting a force - an army list even - and I've worked them around these big political structures to flesh out a backstory. So, though I have six factions set out to begin with, they don't all fit into the backstory the same way.
Concord and Isorian Shard are two big monolithic structures - overbearing - utopias or dystopias depending on your point of view - where humans are freed from all burdens of responsibility and work. Within these huge structures the combat forces are partly machine and partly human - but the human elements are by definition outsiders and fringe members of the society. The faction represents the military arms of those structures - in the case of the Concord the Concord Combined Command - which I usually abbreviate to CoCom - though I'm also using CCC as it's more distinctive on the page - perhaps C3 - anyway - the 'faction' in this case is the Concord Combined Command which identifies threats and opportunities to the Concord within Antarean space and assembles forces to act accordingly.
The Vorl Orde are a classic single-species militaristic alien race - and I included these as an example of the many alien races that exist in Antarean space - some hostile, others less so - I wanted to show form the start that the game and background have aliens. The Vorl are also powerful enough to be a threat to the Concord/Isorian ambitions - competing for new worlds, exploration, and colonies. In this case the faction is the Vorl race – although even the Vorl are prone to internal division during times when the Prime Orde falls or is challenged for supremacy.
The Determinate is a cover-all description for a huge swathe of independent worlds and small empires populated by humans of various kinds - it is not a united poitical entry - in fact the only thing that unites it is each world's/empire's desire to retain its independence. The Concord/Isorians are not necessarily aggressive conquerors - but their technology is such that other human worlds they come into contact with become absorbed within the Concord's/Isorian's Integrated Machine Technology network (IMTel). This isn't deliberate or planned - it's just the way the Concord/Isorian societies function - they are like a virus that spreads by integrating the technological basis of other societies they touch. Their separateness arises from a basic incompatibility resulting from a period of Isorian isolation and contact with technologically advanced alien societies whose technology they absorbed in this way. The Determinate faction could easily be any number of factions, but to begin with I wanted to sketch out the broad idea. The backstory also allows for the concept of mixed forces, with different worlds getting together, or single species forces of highly isolationist, zenophobic species.
Freebooters is a coverall description for bands of individuals of all kinds who exist beyond the immediate control of any planetary or larger scale of government. They are not all the same, and they are not all mercenaries as such, some would be traders, explorers and merchantmen plying the gates and turning their hand to whatever opportunities arise. That might include fighting as mercenaries on behalf of the other factions, or banding together with other Freebooters to mount a big raid. I don’t imagine them as in any way forming an organised political body as a whole – they are the glue and the facilitators that ensure trade and technology can move between the Concord/Isorian Shard and worlds within the Determinate. Most of them are ordinary humans, and therefore able to work without the aid of the IMTel that permeates Concord/Isorian societies, so they can move between the nano-sterilizers that act as barriers between IMTel enabled forces and worlds within the Determinate. The faction represents these free agents – in all their forms – and I identify it as a faction because technology and information is traded freely within it. I initially had these as two separate factions (based out of the Concord/Determinate) but I'm increasingly thinking there isn't sufficient difference to make a clear distinction - so one faction works better.
Of course – some of these touch upon or potentially touch upon archetypes which have proven popular subjects for models and games – I make no apologies for that – I would sooner make models that people want to buy and design games that folks want to play – and if that means making provision for the familiar alongside the innovative and outlandish I don’t see that as a bad thing. Not everyone likes exactly the same thing – and the success in any miniatures range and game often rests upon providing a variety of experience both in the model ranges and gameplay.
The C3 background is great so far. I think there's a lot of room for interesting characters and ideas. In a society that elevates humanity beyond its animal needs, what makes some people choose to fight and die? No doubt there's a lot of material there.
I also like your explanation of the Freebooters. It reassures me that more thought went into the background than in most games that feature freebooters.
I really, really love the concept behind this KS. I love the slight The-Culture-vibes in some of the background.
But - in my humble opinion - the numbers are grim.
It needs ~ GBP 4.500,- in pledges a day to succeed by the end. It hasn't done that in some 4 days.
At the current average pledge level per backer, that is some 45 new backers each day. Hasn't done that either in the last 4 days.
That "stretch-goal-&-new-options-escalation-dynamic" that drives the highly successful (e.g. CMON) Kickstarters isn't going to be there, except for the very end. And even than, "more credits" is cool, but not as - um - entertaining as "what's behind the next Reaper-Tombstone" or "what-could-that-latest-KD-silhouette-be"?
Rivet Wars is raking in more than BGaA.
If I sound gloomy, than I do so because I'd really, really love to have "Rick Priestly's-heart-blood-game". But this needs some serious ideas on baiting in more people, and soon.
I think the lack of a more defined vision in both the rules and models may be hurting this at the moment, but I got in very early because I have faith in Rick and his crew delivering the goods. when more models are shown and also some of the more rounded out rules appear I think this could gain some yards.
Most kickstarters continue adding rewards. Ideally I'd like to pick up more models during the kickstarter, so will do so if I get the option. I dumped $800 on minis in the DFG Eisenkern kickstarter, most of which were stretch goals and/or added in later.
Most kickstarters also have a huge influx in the last days of the kickstarter. This one is in great shape.
Zweischneid wrote: That "stretch-goal-&-new-options-escalation-dynamic" that drives the highly successful (e.g. CMON) Kickstarters isn't going to be there, except for the very end. And even than, "more credits" is cool, but not as - um - entertaining as "what's behind the next Reaper-Tombstone" or "what-could-that-latest-KD-silhouette-be"?
It also doesn't help that the credits aren't very big. If you're pledging at the $100 level, those first $80,000 worth of stretch goals only get you a single standard trooper.
Once the company is able to show what Hansa and the war drones look like, there will be much more backers. I am still optimistic that this project will go through.
I agree, alot of people are waiting on solid greens to see what the theme and models of this project look like, I'm confident when they've been shown there will alot more enthusiasm from people currently on the fence.
Alpharius wrote: Maybe?
It probably will, but you never know when a potentially great Kickstarter could suddenly get mediocre all of a sudden, ala Wyrd's Through The Breach.
I haven't been following it, do you mind messaging me (don't wanna take the thread offtopic) and giving me a quickie synopsis as to how it got mediocre? Interested in that, because I know it had a huge spike in the first few days.
I have £300+ set aside for this, I trust Rick with the rules but I do want to see at least some 3D rendings of the miniatures.
I also agree that so far the bonuses are a bit weak. If there was an amazing first bonus I could see a lot of people (myself included) taking that first step....I personally thought Sedition wars did well with the bonuses.
Lets start again, if nothing changes in the sculptors lineup, there will not be any 3D renders because all of them are traditional miniature sculptors, that means sculpting epoxy of their choice, sculpting tools and time.
Agreed that I think though the pace is relatively steady once that hand model is finished and maybe a bit more concept art is released that more people will pledge
It's rather unfortunate, as it's proven that a competent 3D sculptor can outclass most traditional sculptors, esp when it comes to sci-fi (Dreamforge, cough cough)
PsychoticStorm wrote: Lets start again, if nothing changes in the sculptors lineup, there will not be any 3D renders because all of them are traditional miniature sculptors, that means sculpting epoxy of their choice, sculpting tools and time.
Didn't Bob Naismith do a digital sculpt for Blackwater Gultch?
judgedoug wrote: It's rather unfortunate, as it's proven that a competent 3D sculptor can outclass most traditional sculptors, esp when it comes to sci-fi (Dreamforge, cough cough)
It is also odd because all that next-generation-digital-Wargaming-3.0 (even with all the "It'll-not-be-Ex-Illis-caveats) is one of the things they are pushing. Yet sculpting and miniatures they do like it's 1985?
judgedoug wrote: It's rather unfortunate, as it's proven that a competent 3D sculptor can outclass most traditional sculptors, esp when it comes to sci-fi (Dreamforge, cough cough)
It is also odd because all that next-generation-digital-Wargaming-3.0 (even with all the "It'll-not-be-Ex-Illis-caveats) is one of the things they are pushing. Yet sculpting and miniatures they do like it's 1985?
A decent digital sculptor can be equal to a decent traditional sculptor, but each trade has its pro and con in different situations, as the progress of Digital Art has not eclipsed the traditional painting so the 3D sculpting will not eclipse the traditional sculpting, A good company should know the differences and take the best of each field for their miniatures.
It is also odd because all that next-generation-digital-Wargaming-3.0 (even with all the "It'll-not-be-Ex-Illis-caveats) is one of the things they are pushing. Yet sculpting and miniatures they do like it's 1985?
Hmm a few ideas on the take
1. Its what they are used to. They started the hobby doing sculpting, they're probably gonna keep on sculpting
2. They're british, the vast majority of british companies do this
3. For purposes of plastics anyways, the producer of the minis may have requested this format
Today's update is all about one of the other species we've found in Antarean space - the Pansimians, or sims for short.
PANSIMIANS - SIMS
When Humans spread out into the galaxy in ages past they did not go alone. They took with them domesticated species, wild animals, plants and entire bio-systems from Old Earth. Worlds were terra-formed or built anew in the form of orbital rings or hollow artificial worlds called spheres. The bio-systems of Old Earth were replicated and adapted throughout the galaxy. By the time that humans had spread, multiplied and diversified into the untold Panhuman species that exist today, another group of intelligent creatures from Old Earth had also joined them. These were the descendants of Old Earth apes. Like Panhumans, their evolution had been transgenically enhanced to some extent, boosting their intelligence considerably as well as adapting them to many different environments. Maybe by the time this happened apes had already gained parallel status to humans as fellow sentient creatures, or possibly they were deliberately engineered to undertake tasks felt too dangerous or too difficult for humans. This all happened in the far distant past, and it is impossible to guess at the motives of those long-dead pioneers of Antarean space. Either way, the Spill encompassed not only human and Panhuman societies but societies of Pansimians – commonly called Sims - the descendants of bio-engineered apes.
Today there are numerous Sim worlds throughout the Spill as well as Sim enclaves on human worlds. Sims make excellent fighting troops and can be found amongst even the Concord’s armed forces. As with the various kinds of humans, most Sims would think of themselves of belonging to a particular species or coming from a particular world. For example, K’b Ngo is one such world, whose inhabitant belong to two distinct Pansimian populations: the huge warrior K’bir and the smaller but more intelligent Ngora. Like most Sim worlds K’b Ngo is an independent world that has loose associations with the Free World Determinate. Unlike most Sim civilisations, K’b Ngo has settled other worlds and established its own colonies, The K’b Ngoran Utopica.
The appearance of Sims is – if anything – even more diverse than that of the myriad human species, but few would be recognisable to their primitive ape ancestors of Old Earth. Some are human enough in appearance they can pass as Panhumans, whilst others are savage and monstrous, creatures whose transgenic DNA has mutated unexpectedly. A few are hyper-intelligent, but none are able to exploit the Concord’s IMTel technology in the way of NuHumans. This alone makes it difficult for Sim worlds to integrate with either the Concord or Isorian Shard, and most are independent ExCon planets associated with the Free World Determinate. This does not mean they are technologically backward though. Sim worlds vary a great deal in their development, much as do Panhuman worlds throughout the spill.
Individual spare faring Sims mix fairly freely with humans and can be found throughout Antarean space. They are numerous amongst the ExCon Freebooters, where they often form entire mercenary companies. They also fight as part of the Concord Combined Command (CoCom), the Isorian Shard, Shard Freebooters, and Determinate forces. They are mostly stronger and more robust than practically any human species, and include some of the most accomplished warriors in the whole Spill.
We have lots of ideas about what these chaps look like, but we'd really like to hear your thoughts so head over to the forums if you fancy talking about them or even posting a possible concept for them.
It is also odd because all that next-generation-digital-Wargaming-3.0 (even with all the "It'll-not-be-Ex-Illis-caveats) is one of the things they are pushing. Yet sculpting and miniatures they do like it's 1985?
Hmm a few ideas on the take
1. Its what they are used to. They started the hobby doing sculpting, they're probably gonna keep on sculpting
2. They're british, the vast majority of british companies do this
3. For purposes of plastics anyways, the producer of the minis may have requested this format
In terms of bang-for-the-buck, however, digital sculpting for plastic production is like an order of magnitude cheaper.
UNLESS the rumors are true that Warlord is moving plastics production in-house; their recent 3-ups of Caesarian Romans might be scanned on their own pantograph? Perhaps a chunk of this KS's money is to help fund in-house plastics production? That'd be a hell of an update.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Lets start again, if nothing changes in the sculptors lineup, there will not be any 3D renders because all of them are traditional miniature sculptors, that means sculpting epoxy of their choice, sculpting tools and time.
Didn't Bob Naismith do a digital sculpt for Blackwater Gultch?
He did the gatling gun in 3D, but his men have all been traditional greenstuff sculpts so far. But, he'll likely be doing 3D for a different non-BWG project in the works
I do have a couple of other digital sculptors though I think both formats are just as good, when you get down to it it's all about skill weather it's skill with putty or pixels.
Also Bob Naismith has experience sculpting traditional 3-up plastics. Like most of Mantic's plastics and a huge amount of Victrix and Warlord plastics.
I'm definitely appreciating the extra info, and the glimpses of sculpts.
For me, though, there's no kicker yet... no unique selling point that makes me think I must have this game. My favourite Rogue Trader era game was Space Hulk, so I don't have the nostalgia factor going on. The setting doesn't really grab me -- I feel like I have Infinity for naturalistic SF (not really hard SF, but at least, internally consistent, mostly plausible, etc., rather than space fantasy), and 40K, still, for space fantasy. The minis... can't grab me, yet, because there are none. The rules sound good, but I'd need to read more detail, and play the game, before being sure, I think.
I might not be the target market though. I dunno. I have funded several Kickstarters... I'm just not really grabbed by this one yet.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: There are also quite some really shoddy 3D-sculpted minis out there, so it really depends on how good the sculptor is in his field.
The DFG ones were ridiculously awesome though, not to mention the quality of the plastic produced from them - comparison pics to GW showed them as much crisper detail. With theoretical equally skilled sculptor and 3d designers, which will be translated better to plastic with current tech? Or is it just a matter of cost with similar quality produced.
I find the background very intriguing now. There's a sort of Fire Upon the Deep vibe with the IMTeL technology and nanotech everywhere.
I hope they put up some sketches, or at least lengthy descriptions about what look each faction should have. With all the technology and AI's, I hope they don't focus too much on the human body form. It might work for drones meant to use human-standard equipment, but any robots built strictly for fighting should be something like a gun, an engine/repulsor and a small brain/sensor suite. In fact, just about anything weird and nonhuman should work--mechani-squids, tank-robits, asymetrical hovering doodads, depending on what role it performs.
I would love to see a merging of the biological and the technological that is smooth, rather than just tubes and lenses sticking out all over. If everyone is covered in nanotech, they could blend seamlessly into their armor and weapons, or have textured armor embedded in their skin. Think T-1000 or some of Stephan Martiniere's tech paintings. The Orde should have something that fits much more into their background, like the soldiers literally fitting together like parts of a greater machine, maybe? The Freebooters would need layers of protection against C3 nanotech discovering them or maybe overwriting their brains, stuff like masks and visors and electric meshes, biohazard gear, etc.
Basically, I would want to see something that respects the background instead of cramming "Hyper-intelligent AI-designed battledrone" into "looks like ceramic anime babe". I want to see high tech done without tubes and borg parts. I would like to see the same level of care put into the designs as put into the background...if not more. Perhaps a coherent vision that we can see forming between the background, the aesthetic, the rules, and the interaction would help the Kickstarter take off.
It probably will, but you never know when a potentially great Kickstarter could suddenly get mediocre all of a sudden, ala Wyrd's Through The Breach.
But, as you say, once we can actually see more and know more, it should be OK.
Frankly, I think that if they had actual greens of the minis when they started the KS, it wouldn't be in any danger of not getting funded. I think many people are gun shy when the miniatures in a MINIATURE GAME are sight-unseen.
I'm a touch worried by the progress as well. I agree that there probably does need to be more to grab people - too many responses have been 'I need to see models' or ever 'I need to see the rules'.
Of course, I think that the reason that they have such a long run is in order to give themselves time to develop and show those things.
Bob, you seem to have some really good ideas. Why you don´t visit the Dev-Forum at DSC-website and help us building the game. Your visions will be apreciated.
It also doesn't help that the credits aren't very big. If you're pledging at the $100 level, those first $80,000 worth of stretch goals only get you a single standard trooper.
Now to be fair in this scenario you would get 2 standard troopers....that said in comparison to other similar Kickstarters this is not all that fantastic and like it or not such comparisons will be a factor for many people I would imagine.
Maybe if someone PMs me the link so I don't have to back track through the thread, I could convince my tired, angry bones to move again.
(Are you sure I'm wanted? Apparently I've said some mean things.)
I wouldn't say mean so much as perhaps not fully informed......
Besides you should see some of the things I've said and I'm moderating the DSC forums......I keep harping on that they NEED to release some info on what the basic funding goal will actually fund in terms of the selection of models you get to select your "custom army" from if not specifics (though they would be better) at least reaching the basic funding goal will produce X number of models composed of X 10 credit, X 20 credit, X 30 credit etc. Also that the stretch goals need to be better fleshed out not just in terms of rewards but again what reaching stretch goal x will fund. And where is the + model CR addon....so yeh...
It also doesn't help that the credits aren't very big. If you're pledging at the $100 level, those first $80,000 worth of stretch goals only get you a single standard trooper.
Now to be fair in this scenario you would get 2 standard troopers....
If you're buying Ngoras, sure. But they're one of the smaller races - the Revers seem to start at 20 credits.
AlexHolker wrote: If you're buying Ngoras, sure. But they're one of the smaller races - the Revers seem to start at 20 credits.
Yep you have me there I'd hoped that the Revers listed were special weapon type upgrades and that was why they were 2 peace 20 Credit models and that there would be a single peace "basic" weapon Rever which would only be 10 CR but that doesn't seem to be the case since the basic weapon is apparently the mag/plug gun.....
But it could just be an example of the problems with the examples given for the "custom army" and there will be a 1 peace Rever and why I keep going on about giving us a list.
imho, 3d is a win win (example is Dark Potential, i supported with my hard earned cash but the models are faaaar away from concepts, like from '80). I wish to support this one but at the moment is just another TT gaming systems and, I don't see nothing special about it... yes going to D10, yes to Chess approach ( you-go-i-go), yes for community inputs to the system , all that is superb but how many peoples will actually play that system?
Market is loaded with GW, PP, unfortunately. And every new stuff GW or PP issues out peoples throwing money at...
Its a bit different to board games that I love and always support kiks, they are designed as a dust collectors and to be use once every blue moon...
but I wish them GL want a good Kickstarter, design board game with nice models.
Frankly, I think that if they had actual greens of the minis when they started the KS, it wouldn't be in any danger of not getting funded. I think many people are gun shy when the miniatures in a MINIATURE GAME are sight-unseen.
===
Yeah. This. I am a sucker for monkeymen. If I had a better idea of what the Pansimians would look like, I'd probably be in. I get that they are super-excited about the design process, and that they think that is what will set them apart. But the Kickstarter is all concepts and bullet points. If you want me to buy into a miniature game, it would be a good idea to have at least sketches of the main factions, if not some greens/3-D models.
I realize there is a chicken-and-egg thing going on with development and funding. But it seems like the whole thing needed a few more months of development before going to Kickstarter. Dreadball/Relic Knights/Kingdom Death were able to crank out new concept sketches for new stuff every couple of days. But it seems like here they are still in the broad concept stages of deciding what is what.
I mean...the Kickstarter-exclusive model wasn't even sketched, much less sculpted, before beginning the Kickstarter? Huh?
I wish them luck, but this seems a little half-baked.
Whilst I agree hte kickstarter exclusive is something that could have been done I think the point is that they are wanting to design how the fans see them, and not how they themselves might. Indeed, the "catmen" scetches that are on here, I am sure that in the early days of the forum (a few days before the KS started) someone suggested that one of the races should be "catmen" and lots of people agreed, it would appear that the scetches - and no doubt the eventual models are a direct result of that. (of cause it's also possible that they had always intended to have "catmen" and the comment was just luck/planted, but that seems like a lot of effort when they could have just said "we have catmen -here is what they look like).
the point is, I don;t think they could have had sketches/greens as it is the community that is deciding what things should look like (to some degree - I', sure if you suggested something completely outside the universe then it wouldn;t get in - no matter how popular it was). However as the KS goes and the ideas start to come in they can then start to give sketchs/greens that match what people want. At least that is my understanding of the process.
As has been said above, I think at this stage the Kickstarter could definitely benefit from a single, high quality sculpt to show off. We know that the 'Wardroids' are going to be one of the most important units - I think a cool sci-fi robot, with some customisation, would be a great draw at this stage.
I think the real draw however, and something I think could be a real boon to the Kickstarter, would be further details on how the real-time universe will operate, and perhaps even an example of it (good computer guys on the team? Lets have some kind of well produced animation). Arguably this is the jewel in the crown of this project - something that has not been seen in any other wargame, and IMO is the one thing that has the potential to make this game become tremendously popular. Seriously, I don't have a terribly vivid imagination, but even for my own limited outlook the thought of a community influenced, evolving universe with a real-time website (showing maps of ongoing conflicts, complete with little flash animations!), of players receiving emails with that week's missions (and of course, features on individual player battles in a previous week) - then the results of that carrying on to influence it's development..*whhooooshhhhh*. Well, let's just say I find the concept of that mind blowing!
But anyway, I think the above needs to be a bit more publicised - otherwise it is well within the realms of possibility that this Kickstarter will fail. In my mind that would be a terrible shame not just for Rick and the GoA team, because I think they have had some wonderful ideas here regardless of what you think about the execution, but really I think for the wargaming industry in general; GoA could be precisely what the 'hobby' needs to position itself as a viable form of entertainment for the increasingly computer and technologically savvy new generations, who have more choices than ever for them to spend their money on.
I think that getting the name out there is one of the real challenges of this kickstarter (aside from needing greens and stuff) and the team seem to be trying their best but any suggestions of new and better ways to get their name out would definately be welcome, it has alot of potential and the more people that hear of the kickstarter the better the chance of that potential turning into something real.
AlexHolker wrote: If you're buying Ngoras, sure. But they're one of the smaller races - the Revers seem to start at 20 credits.
Yep you have me there I'd hoped that the Revers listed were special weapon type upgrades and that was why they were 2 peace 20 Credit models and that there would be a single peace "basic" weapon Rever which would only be 10 CR but that doesn't seem to be the case since the basic weapon is apparently the mag/plug gun.....
But it could just be an example of the problems with the examples given for the "custom army" and there will be a 1 peace Rever and why I keep going on about giving us a list.
Hey Guys - we're just putting the finishing touches to the funding goal army list with credit costs, so expect it in tomorrows update - we are listening, just taken us a little while to put together and make sure its right
Great stuff, looking forward to when those appear!
Update number 13 from the Kickstarter has just arrived:
Hi Everyone
Wanted to say that it’s great to see so many of you so active in our forums. You've been contributing some brilliant ideas and thoughts in the development areas and interestingly the total posts in the dev forums have now overtaken the general forums, so clearly we’re not completely mad in thinking that you guys would like to be involved!
One thing to remember is that it takes a long time to make a game properly, you have to get it right and sometimes that means redoing all the work you just did and sometime the magic just happens first time. We’re listening to your posts and rapidly working on lots of areas of the game right now and we’re trying to get information and models out to the as soon as we can, but we do need to do it right, so please bear with us
Right, onto Kev's Hansa model Part 2:
Like the idea of an integrated, high-tech combat suit I have to say!
Hansa looks good so far, like the gun but would'nt mind seeing more armour on the guy as a whole. Either way its still WiP, hopefully when this is done it'll pull in a few more backers, I really want to see this project get funded.
P.s, it nice to see Kevin being so generous with the guys *ahem* equipmeant.
Out of question is there a list to how do these credits stack up in relation to the miniatures? i.e 100 credits being worth 3 small base minis or 1 medium base minis etc.
Out of question is there a list to how do these credits stack up in relation to the miniatures? i.e 100 credits being worth 3 small base minis or 1 medium base minis etc.
On the KS page they have "sample" minis on what credits can buy.
Spoiler:
YOUR FISTFUL OF CREDITS!
10 Credit Models
10 credits typically gets you a single-piece model of a Pan, Sim or Drone. Think of these as useful extras to have along or as the basic troopers making up larger, lightly equipped forces
Examples
Sim Ngora
Hunter Drones
Targetter Drones
Pan Boramites
20 Credit Models
Typically 20 credits gets you either a larger single-piece model of one of the larger species of Pan or Sim, or a multipart model which may have separate weapons, head, packs and so forth. Think of this as your standard Pan or Sim trooper fully-equipped for battle.
Examples
Rever Hiredgun armed with Plug Gun
Pan Gwar trooper armed with plasma carbine
K’bir shock trooper
30 Credit Models
Think of these as your ‘heavies’ or as supporting troops and weapons.
typically gets you one of the largest species of Panhumans including NuHu – which we aim to make about 40mm tall – or a more standard sized Pan or Sim trooper or WarDrone equipped with a substantial heavy weapon or items of heavy equipment.
Examples
SuspensorDrone with Plasma Cannon
Rever Hiredgun with Fractal Cannon
Shard Trooper in Isorian Phase-Armour
40 Credit Models
40 credits typically gets you a character model representing an individual leader, company captain, or a customisable personality figure – these will be multi-part models with head, weapon and other options where appropriate.
Examples
Rever Gun Runner Captain toting a Customised Compression gun with AG Armour
A larger humanoid creature, in the 50mm range
Alien – in the 50mm range – such as a Vorl Th’kal.
50 Credit Models
This level will typically give you one of our finest character models – a named individual from our game universe with all the separate pieces required to create a dynamic or superbly equipped character – a sturdy gaming model and a show piece for painters and collectors.
Examples:
a larger ‘monstrous’ creature
Pan or Sim mounted on a Grav-Bike or similar vehicle.
Example Custom Army (default Dark Energy Reward Tier)
1 x Rever Captain with Grippler LCG Compo gun 40 credits
1 x NuHu Mission Ambassador 30 credits
2 x Pans with Mag guns 40 credits
2 x Pans with Plasma carbines 40 credits
2 x Rever with Mag guns 40 credits
1 x Rever with Plasma carbine 20 credits
1 x Rever with Fractal Cannon and Mag pistol 30 credits
Total 240 Credits
We'll be sending out a survey once the Kickstarter has finished so that you can tell us your army selection and if we hit our various stretch goals we’ll be adding more models to our initial range, including more plastic kits, and all of these will also be available to select.
So, as a way of reference we are possibly talking here:
- Simple/smaller models as £12.50 for a pack of 10.
- Multi-part, customisable and larger models at £24 for a pack of 10
- 40mm models (Tau battle suit size? fully loaded terminators as a way of comparison perhaps?) - a box of 5 for between £18-20?
- A character, or 50mm monster, for around £5 (this can't be right surely? ) - with a named character £6-7?
If this is the case, depending on the finished product of course, these prices are extremely reasonable.
We've also been told that more or less will be made in plastic, depending on the success of the Kickstarter, so that might affect things to an extent.
On a separate note, there is now a pretty interesting discussion going on regarding the development of the real-time universe/player interaction with GoA on the official forums. This is the most exciting part of the project for me, so I think well worth having a read with if you have some ideas!
The new price listing for credit purchases has been updated on the kickstarter, obviously without army list planning and weapon stats it is hard to nail down an exact list but you can get a general idea as to how much bang for your buck you'd get aswell as the options available at the very start:
Custom Army List
NOTE: Each pose or variant is a separate model and costs the same credit amount shown next to model name.
Rever Mercenaries
Revers are old-fashioned humans who form a significant portion of the armed forces of all human factions.
20 Credits - Rever Mercenary with plasma pistol and grenades – 2 poses
20 Credits - Rever Mercenary with plug carbine – 3 poses
30 Credits - Rever Mercenary with fractal cannon – 1 pose
30 Credits - Rever Mercenary Captain with plasma pistol and tech-harness (1 alt parts)
NuHu
NuHu are the masters and most profiles species of the Concord and of the Isorian Shard – but rarely are they seen putting themselves in danger. Those that must are volunteers of unusual temperament and courage for their species. NuHu don’t form units of troopers but specialist individuals within a force.
CoCom has developed shield-base battle armour fields that afford protection and mobility. These are activated by pack generators and the field is held by light metallic plates attached to the trooper’s battlesuit. These will be Rever types or will have alternate heads representing different Pans and helmets.
20 Credits - CoCom Trooper in battle armour with plasma carbine – 3 poses
30 Credits - CoCom Trooper in battle armour with X-Launcher – 1 pose
30 Credits - CoCom Trooper in battle armour with plasma cannon – 1 pose
30 Credits - Isorian Shard Battle Leader (1 alt parts)
Drones
These include all kinds of sentient machines including WarDrones. All human factions have type of drones and can have WarDrones, although not all factions have equally effective WarDrones.
N/A - WarDrone Plastic set – plastic multi-posed kits with a choice of weapons and head variants.
20 Credits - CoCom WarDrone armed with plasma carbine – 3 variants
10 Credits - Hunter drones – 2 variants
10 Credits - Targetter drone – 1 variant
Algoryn Troopers
The Algoryn Prosperate is a powerful group of worlds within the Determinate and one of the chief enemies of the Gwar. The Algoryn are adapted to high levels of radiation and very hot temperatures, with thick, gnarly skins, dense musculature and bony outgrowths over their eyes that shield them from the radioactive glare of the Algoryn suns. They have a relatively high civilisation level and trade Concord technology through Freebooter traders.
20 Credits - Algoryn trooper with plasma pistol and grenades – 2 poses
20 Credits - Algoryn trooper with plug carbine – 3 poses
30 Credits - Algoryn trooper with plasma cannon – 1 pose
30 Credits - Algoryn Prosperate Captain with plasma pistol and tech-harness (1 alt parts)
Isorian Shard Troopers
The Isorians have developed numerous unique technologies through contact with advanced alien species – amongst these advances is the phase armour worn by Shard Troopers. These will be Rever types or will have alternate heads representing different Pans and helmets.
30 Credits - Isorian Shard Trooper in phase Armour with fractal cannon – 1 pose
30 Credits - Isorian Shard Trooper in phase Armour with X-Launcher – 1 pose
20 Credits - Isorian Shard Trooper in phase Armour with plasma carbine – 3 poses
30 Credits - Isorian Shard Battle Leader (1 alt parts)
Boramites
The Boramites originated in the Boram Asteroid mines of Gar’Xu. They have now spread throughout many of the mining colonies of the Spill and can be found throughout Antarean Space. Boramites are a Panhuman species that is highly dimorphic in nature – with a small subtype a well as a larger ruling caste.
I personally think that the list is quite well done - a whole bunch of stuff there for different people to get interested in, plenty of room for expansion, and there seems to be already a nice level of variance between different races/creeds.
By my calculation, it would take 1000 credits to get one of each unique sculpt. Of course some of them, like Hunter/Targetter drones, or the standard troopers, you might want multiples of.
My plan is to get enough for two forces. I'll probably do an Isorian force that uses most of the plastic drones, plus the Isorian trooper models, and some kind of NuHu thrown in. The other maybe a Freebooter force with a few plastic drones, plus a mix of rever, algoryn, and boramite models to get a good variety and rag-tag feel to it.
@Duncan, thanks for the link. I've signed up on their forums, but I won't have time to write up anything coherent (er... coherentish) until later tonight or tomorrow. I don't think my own particular style of pithy comments would make for a good introduction, so I'll read a bit of what's already going on and see what I can add... or vehemently oppose.
So.. maybe I missed it... does the starter box (£65) come with a full printed but not hardback rulebook or is it just a quickstart guide kind of thing? If I want the full rulebook do I have to get the Feeder level? Or is feeder for just if you want a whole lot of minis?
I'm sorry but that list just does not do it for me. I need visuals to even get mildly interested in this KS. Although it is nice to see that there is finally some solid direction, it is not yet enough to get my money. Hopefully soon we will be shown some images and I can really get an idea of what is going on!
Necros wrote: So.. maybe I missed it... does the starter box (£65) come with a full printed but not hardback rulebook or is it just a quickstart guide kind of thing? If I want the full rulebook do I have to get the Feeder level? Or is feeder for just if you want a whole lot of minis?
It took me a moment to figure that out myself. The (£65) "Dark Energy" Level only comes with the official rules in PDF format(and a basic book it looks like similar to GW has in their boxes I think?). Feeder level has a real "paper" rulebook.
You can add a the rulebook to the starter box for £25.
It sounds like most of these models are not multi part? I'm more a modeler/fluff whore than a gamer so that's probably enough of a turn off to cancel my pledge I think. Will wait and see though, plenty of time left.
Yonan wrote: It sounds like most of these models are not multi part? I'm more a modeler/fluff whore than a gamer so that's probably enough of a turn off to cancel my pledge I think. Will wait and see though, plenty of time left.
I've definitely been painting/modelling more than playing the last couple years, but if you look at the list there seems to be about 50 different models(when variants and poses are included), not including the drones.
Yonan wrote: It sounds like most of these models are not multi part? I'm more a modeler/fluff whore than a gamer so that's probably enough of a turn off to cancel my pledge I think. Will wait and see though, plenty of time left.
The numbers don't help either. With only 6-7 poses per human faction, you can't even fill out a basic 240 credit squad without either doubling up or spreading out.
Is that unreasonable though considering the scale of the game? If we are saying around 50 miniatures on the tabletop for a standard game, I can't think of any other games played at that scale where there is not at least some repetition among their poses. If they are component pieces as well then there should be some room for customisation in any case.
Pacific wrote: Is that unreasonable though considering the scale of the game?
The old metal Valhallans had twenty sculpts. So did the Eschers.
Some people might be upset at the lack of sculpts, on the other hand some people won't be playing the game for the wide array of sculpts and more for the tactical side of the game, each to their own I guess.
For me, it's not just that they should have waited a bit longer... it's partly about them putting more time and effort in, themselves. I find myself wondering why I should have the faith to invest £100 or so in a Kickstarter when the sculptor hasn't had the faith to invest £100 in sculpting time before it starts.
Kevin White (from, among others, Hasslefree Miniatures), started working on the exclusive mini a few days ago. They have been posting regular updates, and the mini is starting to take shape. You can see his progress on Kickstarter and on the forum.
Image in the spoiler.
Oh, yeah, I saw that. Kev's a great sculptor, and Hasslefree are one of the nicest companies in the UK. But him starting work on the exclusive mini a few days ago... it's a bit like me opening a pizza delivery shop, but only buying the pizza dough when I get my first delivery order from a customer.
so, let me get that right, at the moment they have in their team 1 ONE sculptor? Who designed (well still wip) ONE model in last week or so?
if I throw money into this Kick, how many YEARS I would have to wait for this system? There is no rules, no models, just a couple of concepts, and one mini on their way.
Don't get me wrong, its good project for kickstarter, but they have to be clear and realistic about delivery times. in my opinion we looking at 2014 early 2015 of having something that we could use as a tabletop game. ....
Alpharius - I've spent a lot of time reading about this project mate, so let me educate you haha! As ridiculous as it sounds, I don't think this most important thing of this game is the miniature range, or at least I don't think it's that vital to be focused on at this point. Let me explain - we know that GoA has got some extremely talented sculptors working for it. As well as the names who have already listed with the project, no doubt Rick has collected many brownie points over the years that he will be able to (perhaps is already) cashing in with various people within the game development community. As such, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that these miniatures probably aren't going to look like a cat's bottom!
The real clincher for me, and sorry for sounding a bit like a broken record with this, is the real-time and developing game universe, and the level of interaction between the game developers and the playing community. We haven't seen anything like it before - the massive, world wide campaigns run by GW in the past have given a hint of what was possible, but with today's technology it could take the same principle to a much further level. There are some really exciting ideas being floated around on the official forum about this - and now a section with a 'trial episode' planned, so hopefully we will see something soon of what the development team have got planning! I think with ex-EA staff on board, and a knowledge of how massive this kind of 'community universe' can become, GoA has the potential to be big - perhaps truly massive - on that basis.
Anyway, it's got my excited, and I tend to be an extremely jaded and difficult-to-please git at the best of times
god.ra wrote: so, let me get that right, at the moment they have in their team 1 ONE sculptor? Who designed (well still wip) ONE model in last week or so?
if I throw money into this Kick, how many YEARS I would have to wait for this system? There is no rules, no models, just a couple of concepts, and one mini on their way.
Don't get me wrong, its good project for kickstarter, but they have to be clear and realistic about delivery times. in my opinion we looking at 2014 early 2015 of having something that we could use as a tabletop game. ....
They need the investment before they start making plastic molds and working full-time on sculpts?
This is Kickstarter. Not a preorder.
The rules are actively being discussed and demonstrated to the backers. The alpha testing begins in April.
Pacific wrote: I don't think this most important thing of this game is the miniature range, or at least I don't think it's that vital to be focused on at this point.
Not to sound like a sour grape, I mean I kind of do want this to succeed, but then if the miniatures are secondary then why do they need 300,000 GBP (481309.16 USD currently). Thats video game territory of funding goals and I doubt that making an online table top connection is as complicated as even some basic video games
Obviously the majority of those funds must be going towards miniatures, thus they are the most important aspect funding wise
Once again not trying to be the sour grape, but technically giving money in advance for the probable chance of gaining a future product is a pre order no? Unless theres an unlikely chance of getting said product in which case it may be considered a speculative investment. I mean its a bit like all these video game KS. Many of them in a similar situation to GoA, concept arts and not too much actual finished video game content. However since there is a likely chance of getting a product in the end I do consider that a pre order even if its still quite in the development stage.
Yes I admit I am nick picking, I'll go get a cardboard sign .
judgedoug wrote: They need the investment before they start making plastic molds and working full-time on sculpts?
Sculpting? They haven't even finished the concept sketches yet. And $500,000 for one plastic kit isn't very good value when Dreamforge managed a dozen for $200,000.
Pacific wrote: I don't think this most important thing of this game is the miniature range, or at least I don't think it's that vital to be focused on at this point.
Not to sound like a sour grape, I mean I kind of do want this to succeed, but then if the miniatures are secondary then why do they need 300,000 GBP (481309.16 USD currently). Thats video game territory of funding goals and I doubt that making an online table top connection is as complicated as even some basic video games
Exactly!
Miniatures may or may not be the most important part of the game/rule set as a whole, but they appear to be a rather big part of this Kickstarter.
judgedoug wrote: They need the investment before they start making plastic molds and working full-time on sculpts?
Sculpting? They haven't even finished the concept sketches yet. And $500,000 for one plastic kit isn't very good value when Dreamforge managed a dozen for $200,000.
Glad you agree with me. They should finish all of the concepts before sculpting.
Also glad to see everyone understands that this KS is not a preorder for a product from an established company, but actually funding the company and the development of it's product lines.
Well the exclusive miniature is looking excellent! Great face details and the armour looks perfect.
I find it odd how it is being made as the KS page goes on about the different stages of concept sketches to wire frame to finished sculpt and the very first model is being sculpted without any artwork at all! That is of course, unless I am missing the sketch?
judgedoug wrote: Glad you agree with me. They should finish all of the concepts before sculpting.
They should have finalised the concepts before asking for money. They could have posted up all their first iteration concept art on their forum, used fan feedback to improve them, and then start the Kickstarter complete with art of everything they are wanting to make.
I'm still hanging in there at Feeder level I'm prepared to wait and see where this goes, Hansa is off to a good start but I'm inching closer to changing to the Inflationary Epoch level for £25 so I can get Hansa and the rulebook and then just adding £24 for 200 credits for a few miniatures to start with - I have loads of stuff that can be proxied into the current army types to get me started still plenty can happen in 48 days.
judgedoug wrote: Glad you agree with me. They should finish all of the concepts before sculpting.
They should have finalised the concepts before asking for money. They could have posted up all their first iteration concept art on their forum, used fan feedback to improve them, and then start the Kickstarter complete with art of everything they are wanting to make.
And they should have sculpted everything first, and had the rules complete. And they should have set a really small funding goal, like $10,000, to fund the ltd ed figure. And then stretch goals every 10k to "unlock" models that were already sculpted and scheduled to be released anyway. But only as add-ons. And then we could all be complaining that it was a preorder.
so, let me get that right, at the moment they have in their team 1 ONE sculptor? Who designed (well still wip) ONE model in last week or so?
if I throw money into this Kick, how many YEARS I would have to wait for this system? There is no rules, no models, just a couple of concepts, and one mini on their way.
Don't get me wrong, its good project for kickstarter, but they have to be clear and realistic about delivery times. in my opinion we looking at 2014 early 2015 of having something that we could use as a tabletop game. ....
Well, the game is due for full release in December 2013, according to the kickstarter page. Alpha rules will be released for playtesting around April 2013, with Beta rules due in August. Seems like a sensible amount of time for them to do a great job developing the rules and miniatures. And not too long to wait really.
Kickstarter lists three sculptors on their team, rather than one. Not including Karol Rudyk. Work on the Hansa model only just started because their concept is to give the backers a chance to give feedback on how they think the model should look (which has been done in detail on the forum), and then watch every stage of the process. Personally, I absolutely love this.
god.ra wrote: so, let me get that right, at the moment they have in their team 1 ONE sculptor? Who designed (well still wip) ONE model in last week or so?
if I throw money into this Kick, how many YEARS I would have to wait for this system? There is no rules, no models, just a couple of concepts, and one mini on their way.
Don't get me wrong, its good project for kickstarter, but they have to be clear and realistic about delivery times. in my opinion we looking at 2014 early 2015 of having something that we could use as a tabletop game. ....
They got Bob Naismith on there team, who sculpted around 16 figures for us in a month (December, so xmas) while also doing stuff for Mantic and a few others.
Yonan wrote: It sounds like most of these models are not multi part? I'm more a modeler/fluff whore than a gamer so that's probably enough of a turn off to cancel my pledge I think. Will wait and see though, plenty of time left.
The numbers don't help either. With only 6-7 poses per human faction, you can't even fill out a basic 240 credit squad without either doubling up or spreading out.
I think the model list only covers what they will produce at the time the game is released. It's actually a bit of a longer list than I expected. They would obviously add lots more over time, if the game does well, so variety shouldn't be a problem.
As regards the factions, I get the impression that many of the models will be useable by lots of factions, meaning your choice isn't necessarily restricted to the few models listed under each heading (ie an Isorian Shard force wouldn't just be made up of the 6 poses listed under that heading - they might also be joined by a load of drones, maybe a NuHu Ambassador and some mercenaries or whatever).
Necros wrote: Bob Naismith is a sculpting beast. I betcha he could have a whole army done by tuesday if you asked nicely.
He is a sculpt machine and a really nice guy by all accounts.
However, doing all that work makes his quality suffer, IMO. He definitely doesn't sculpt to the best of his ability most of the time.
Love the WIP figure. A few more good ones and I will likely kick in on this project. I really like the artwork for the Drones. Some of the WIP concept art looks decent but none of it is blowing my skirt up yet.
Well I have never taken part in a kick starter before, however a good few of my mates would like a different game to 40k as they mostly play blood bowl, so a good well developed boxed game would be of interest, I missed out on sedition wars so I'm diving in this time.
Went for £190 option to get the set of mini's and collectors rule book, I'm a sucker for good books.
Hopefully this will work out and I can be part of developing something I will eventually have in my hand
I'd really like to see this one succeed, and I'd really like to see and help Rick Priestly realise his dream and retirement safety net, and it really is a "true" kickstarter as opposed to a CMON pre-order... but...
I'd potentially be willing to pay for the rules. But I'm not really interested in making them myself. OK that part is easy. but...
I'm not really willing to pay hundreds of dollars, sight unseen for figures I may or may not have any interest in - especially when I've already got thousands of dollars worth of proxies in my 40k collection, not to mention stuff like the Kev White sculpted Sedition Wars figures coming in a month or two. If a huge chunk of that cash is for figures, then I want to at least see concepts up front.
Strong concepts that the designers are open to feedback on for modification. I'm not really interested in "design by committee" figures from the people on their forums. Well, they might turn out to be cool, but I'm not paying for them upfront, sight unseen(!)
The other thing of course is that even if I do go in on this, I won't pledge money for this until the last minute (sorry guys!) The reason being the lack of Amazon Payments. I'm not giving my CC details to another dispersal company with permission to maybe debit me for a few hundred bucks. Not sure why KS can't use Amazon.co.uk, but anyway.
I guess these are a couple of things that puzzle me. While I'm not scared of foreign currency and buy things in US$ and GPP all the time, we all do know that American consumers are more likely to be scared off by foreign currencies, and that correspondingly campaigns in US$ do better than those using other currencies. I'm sure if the campaign was run on KS-US it would have made enough more to offset currency conversion costs.
Rick mentioned that they didn't have the "time" to set up a shell company? I dunno. I'm sure it's a fair bit of dicking around, but just like the lack of concept art (What do the Wardrones look like at least?) it seems a little bit rushed/half-arsed in a lot of ways.
While I do trust Rick to be able to come up with good rules, and I'm personally pretty indifferent about the amazing evolving universe (TM), it seems that if the campaign had been delayed by another month or so to get some concept art, some pre-renders of the wardrones, Kev's sculpt finished, and a US KS account it would be that much closer to success, and as such, I'd be a lot more likely to invest in it.
Great, you made me review my own transformer collection for kibbles
Though I did go through the topic a bit. It seems that even the drones technically dont have a set thing. Some people on their forums seem to want quad leg drones for example.
I am suddenly reminded of wgf forums for some reason
Also, half the point of the game is player interaction with the game designers. They didn't want to have concept art, or any finished models because they wanted to ask the players what the wanted to see first.
For example the Hansa model that has been shown in this forum, was sculpted after a lengthy discussion on the forums with interactions with Rick himself. Kevin White read that forum, and base on that feedback he is making the sculpt.
The same with all of the races and factions. There are discussions on how each race will look like, and how the various factions work (or don't work!) together.
We have already changed the nature of the game. There was a long discussion on whether this game was going to be 'hard science' or not. And at the end of that talk, it was decided (after defining what hard science is) that the game will not be hard science since it would be impossible to guess what our technological level will be in 7000 years. And so, 'hard science' was removed completely from the Kickstarter page/ website.
It's a new idea, it is a grass-root design system that has never been done before, where we see our suggestions work out in real time, and the game designers actually respond!
I think my opinion after some thought over the last week or so is that I hope this project gets funded, but it won't be getting funds from me. There's just not enough there yet. And the concept art so far has not helped. Not a fan of noisy kibbly design.
It's a new idea, it is a grass-root design system that has never been done before
I would add "successfully" to the end of that. I think that quite a few companies have advertised the customers/gamers will aid the designers of the game or miniatures which is why I had that wgf forum comment, remembering the days back when they originally attempted the LauL. I'm sure sometime in the past perhaps other fresh companies like Mantic or Defiance had some similar propositions.
Thanks for the info Cosmic, been lurking around the GoA forums but haven't been able to gauge how much of a impact the players are having on the development of this game so far, it's great to hear there is genuine change taking place and player feedback is having an positive effect. Like others I have been a little worried that this is going to be a repeat of WGF all over again, in the sense that those who scream the loudest get what they want.
One thing I am very curious about is how much player content will make it into the game, if any. There's a lot of activity in places like the "Species General" part of the forums with people creating some pretty decent little ideas for races, which with some work could become sub-factions/mercenaries/one-off units in the game.
Now as great as this is, is it actually going to have an effect? Are they ever going to be in the actual game/rulebooks as a "cannon" part of the GoA universe?, Or is player created content going to be limited to "foot-notes" in the fluff? I guess what I would like to know is the GoA "concept" as a whole going to expand to include outside ideas as a part of the development process or is it strictly limited by the creators vision in which the community is simply giving a "yay" or "nay" to pre-established ideas?
Well maybe that's a bit far off to answer right now, but I'm sure someone understands what I'm getting at here or I'm just being an over-active jerk again......
Either way I'm still tempted to try and help out a bit with this project, if I get round to it I might throw up some Pan-Human concepts (and any else I create that could be of use)in the development forums, I'm not a writer by any margin, but I can draw (to an "okay" degree) and sculpt.
Cosmic_Seth wrote: Also, half the point of the game is player interaction with the game designers. They didn't want to have concept art, or any finished models because they wanted to ask the players what the wanted to see first.
For example the Hansa model that has been shown in this forum, was sculpted after a lengthy discussion on the forums with interactions with Rick himself. Kevin White read that forum, and base on that feedback he is making the sculpt.
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It's a new idea, it is a grass-root design system that has never been done before, where we see our suggestions work out in real time, and the game designers actually respond!
That is certainly an interesting concept, but unfortunately doesn't mesh well with me paying £190/AU$300 (which would otherwise probably be my "most wanted" level) for unseen models. Design-by-committee doesn't inspire confidence.
I could potentially go in for the rulebook, perhaps.
Cosmic_Seth wrote:For example the Hansa model that has been shown in this forum, was sculpted after a lengthy discussion on the forums with interactions with Rick himself. Kevin White read that forum, and base on that feedback he is making the sculpt.
You mean the discussion that reached consensus on a grizzled veteran à la Han Solo or Mal Reynolds, the polar opposite of the armoured cyborg brute we're getting? That discussion?
We have already changed the nature of the game. There was a long discussion on whether this game was going to be 'hard science' or not. And at the end of that talk, it was decided (after defining what hard science is) that the game will not be hard science since it would be impossible to guess what our technological level will be in 7000 years. And so, 'hard science' was removed completely from the Kickstarter page/ website.
They were called on their bs and they backed down. Call me crazy but I'm not sure that qualifies as a game-changer.
It's a new idea, it is a grass-root design system that has never been done before, where we see our suggestions work out in real time, and the game designers actually respond!
It's the same design system we've seen over and over again, with the same illusion of input from the punters beyond serving as brainstorming monkeys. But now with regular internet polls. Woo. Hoo.
god.ra wrote:There is no rules, no models, just a couple of concepts, and one mini on their way.
Some of the models will have been sculpted years ago. The Boramites, for example, sound like an excuse to recycle Hasslefree Grymm.
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I want to like this project but the creators need to be honest about where they are in the design process so we can offer feedback based on that. Otherwise it's just the usual suspects uselessly beating their hobby horses.
judgedoug wrote: Also glad to see everyone understands that this KS is not a preorder for a product from an established company, but actually funding the company and the development of it's product lines.
Regardless of what people call it, it is me (or you) giving money to a company and getting ??? in return. For Sedition Wars it was giving money for cutting molds, switching paper components to plastic, making even more molds. In return, we are being given product. With KD, we have a similar situation. And also with DreamForge as well. With Malifaux, we... well, I still don't know what they were expecting with that one.
Regardless, you cannot expect people to go into a kickstarter of any sort, freely handing over their money without any expectation of a return of some sort on their investment.
I've had a browse and I really like that you're listening to people's input and taking their thoughts on board at such an early stage of the project. 
Good luck, and I hope it goes well!
) that is the 
Well, let's just say I find the concept of that mind blowing!
