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so, let me get that right, at the moment they have in their team 1 ONE sculptor? Who designed (well still wip) ONE model in last week or so?
if I throw money into this Kick, how many YEARS I would have to wait for this system? There is no rules, no models, just a couple of concepts, and one mini on their way.
Don't get me wrong, its good project for kickstarter, but they have to be clear and realistic about delivery times. in my opinion we looking at 2014 early 2015 of having something that we could use as a tabletop game. ....

Alpharius - I've spent a lot of time reading about this project mate, so let me educate you haha! As ridiculous as it sounds, I don't think this most important thing of this game is the miniature range, or at least I don't think it's that vital to be focused on at this point. Let me explain - we know that GoA has got some extremely talented sculptors working for it. As well as the names who have already listed with the project, no doubt Rick has collected many brownie points over the years that he will be able to (perhaps is already) cashing in with various people within the game development community. As such, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that these miniatures probably aren't going to look like a cat's bottom!

The real clincher for me, and sorry for sounding a bit like a broken record with this, is the real-time and developing game universe, and the level of interaction between the game developers and the playing community. We haven't seen anything like it before - the massive, world wide campaigns run by GW in the past have given a hint of what was possible, but with today's technology it could take the same principle to a much further level. There are some really exciting ideas being floated around on the official forum about this - and now a section with a 'trial episode' planned, so hopefully we will see something soon of what the development team have got planning! I think with ex-EA staff on board, and a knowledge of how massive this kind of 'community universe' can become, GoA has the potential to be big - perhaps truly massive - on that basis.

Anyway, it's got my excited, and I tend to be an extremely jaded and difficult-to-please git at the best of times

 god.ra wrote:
so, let me get that right, at the moment they have in their team 1 ONE sculptor? Who designed (well still wip) ONE model in last week or so?
if I throw money into this Kick, how many YEARS I would have to wait for this system? There is no rules, no models, just a couple of concepts, and one mini on their way.
Don't get me wrong, its good project for kickstarter, but they have to be clear and realistic about delivery times. in my opinion we looking at 2014 early 2015 of having something that we could use as a tabletop game. ....

They need the investment before they start making plastic molds and working full-time on sculpts?

This is Kickstarter. Not a preorder.

The rules are actively being discussed and demonstrated to the backers. The alpha testing begins in April.

Again, this is Kickstarter. Not a preorder.

 Pacific wrote:
I don't think this most important thing of this game is the miniature range, or at least I don't think it's that vital to be focused on at this point.

Not to sound like a sour grape, I mean I kind of do want this to succeed, but then if the miniatures are secondary then why do they need 300,000 GBP (481309.16 USD currently). Thats video game territory of funding goals and I doubt that making an online table top connection is as complicated as even some basic video games

Obviously the majority of those funds must be going towards miniatures, thus they are the most important aspect funding wise


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 judgedoug wrote:

Again, this is Kickstarter. Not a preorder.

Once again not trying to be the sour grape, but technically giving money in advance for the probable chance of gaining a future product is a pre order no? Unless theres an unlikely chance of getting said product in which case it may be considered a speculative investment. I mean its a bit like all these video game KS. Many of them in a similar situation to GoA, concept arts and not too much actual finished video game content. However since there is a likely chance of getting a product in the end I do consider that a pre order even if its still quite in the development stage.

Yes I admit I am nick picking, I'll go get a cardboard sign .

 judgedoug wrote:
They need the investment before they start making plastic molds and working full-time on sculpts?

Sculpting? They haven't even finished the concept sketches yet. And $500,000 for one plastic kit isn't very good value when Dreamforge managed a dozen for $200,000.

 kenshin620 wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
I don't think this most important thing of this game is the miniature range, or at least I don't think it's that vital to be focused on at this point.

Not to sound like a sour grape, I mean I kind of do want this to succeed, but then if the miniatures are secondary then why do they need 300,000 GBP (481309.16 USD currently). Thats video game territory of funding goals and I doubt that making an online table top connection is as complicated as even some basic video games

Exactly!

Miniatures may or may not be the most important part of the game/rule set as a whole, but they appear to be a rather big part of this Kickstarter.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
They need the investment before they start making plastic molds and working full-time on sculpts?

Sculpting? They haven't even finished the concept sketches yet. And $500,000 for one plastic kit isn't very good value when Dreamforge managed a dozen for $200,000.

Glad you agree with me. They should finish all of the concepts before sculpting.

Also glad to see everyone understands that this KS is not a preorder for a product from an established company, but actually funding the company and the development of it's product lines.

Well the exclusive miniature is looking excellent! Great face details and the armour looks perfect.
I find it odd how it is being made as the KS page goes on about the different stages of concept sketches to wire frame to finished sculpt and the very first model is being sculpted without any artwork at all! That is of course, unless I am missing the sketch?

 judgedoug wrote:
Glad you agree with me. They should finish all of the concepts before sculpting.

They should have finalised the concepts before asking for money. They could have posted up all their first iteration concept art on their forum, used fan feedback to improve them, and then start the Kickstarter complete with art of everything they are wanting to make.

I'm still hanging in there at Feeder level I'm prepared to wait and see where this goes, Hansa is off to a good start but I'm inching closer to changing to the Inflationary Epoch level for £25 so I can get Hansa and the rulebook and then just adding £24 for 200 credits for a few miniatures to start with - I have loads of stuff that can be proxied into the current army types to get me started still plenty can happen in 48 days.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Glad you agree with me. They should finish all of the concepts before sculpting.

They should have finalised the concepts before asking for money. They could have posted up all their first iteration concept art on their forum, used fan feedback to improve them, and then start the Kickstarter complete with art of everything they are wanting to make.

And they should have sculpted everything first, and had the rules complete. And they should have set a really small funding goal, like $10,000, to fund the ltd ed figure. And then stretch goals every 10k to "unlock" models that were already sculpted and scheduled to be released anyway. But only as add-ons. And then we could all be complaining that it was a preorder.

so, let me get that right, at the moment they have in their team 1 ONE sculptor? Who designed (well still wip) ONE model in last week or so?
if I throw money into this Kick, how many YEARS I would have to wait for this system? There is no rules, no models, just a couple of concepts, and one mini on their way.
Don't get me wrong, its good project for kickstarter, but they have to be clear and realistic about delivery times. in my opinion we looking at 2014 early 2015 of having something that we could use as a tabletop game. ....

Well, the game is due for full release in December 2013, according to the kickstarter page. Alpha rules will be released for playtesting around April 2013, with Beta rules due in August. Seems like a sensible amount of time for them to do a great job developing the rules and miniatures. And not too long to wait really.

Kickstarter lists three sculptors on their team, rather than one. Not including Karol Rudyk. Work on the Hansa model only just started because their concept is to give the backers a chance to give feedback on how they think the model should look (which has been done in detail on the forum), and then watch every stage of the process. Personally, I absolutely love this.

 god.ra wrote:
so, let me get that right, at the moment they have in their team 1 ONE sculptor? Who designed (well still wip) ONE model in last week or so?
if I throw money into this Kick, how many YEARS I would have to wait for this system? There is no rules, no models, just a couple of concepts, and one mini on their way.
Don't get me wrong, its good project for kickstarter, but they have to be clear and realistic about delivery times. in my opinion we looking at 2014 early 2015 of having something that we could use as a tabletop game. ....

They got Bob Naismith on there team, who sculpted around 16 figures for us in a month (December, so xmas) while also doing stuff for Mantic and a few others.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
It sounds like most of these models are not multi part? I'm more a modeler/fluff whore than a gamer so that's probably enough of a turn off to cancel my pledge I think. Will wait and see though, plenty of time left.

The numbers don't help either. With only 6-7 poses per human faction, you can't even fill out a basic 240 credit squad without either doubling up or spreading out.

I think the model list only covers what they will produce at the time the game is released. It's actually a bit of a longer list than I expected. They would obviously add lots more over time, if the game does well, so variety shouldn't be a problem.

As regards the factions, I get the impression that many of the models will be useable by lots of factions, meaning your choice isn't necessarily restricted to the few models listed under each heading (ie an Isorian Shard force wouldn't just be made up of the 6 poses listed under that heading - they might also be joined by a load of drones, maybe a NuHu Ambassador and some mercenaries or whatever).

They just posted a basic gameplay video. Of course, the minis used are just place-holders.

On Kickstarter and on the forum.

Bob Naismith is a sculpting beast. I betcha he could have a whole army done by tuesday if you asked nicely.

 Necros wrote:
Bob Naismith is a sculpting beast. I betcha he could have a whole army done by tuesday if you asked nicely.

He is a sculpt machine and a really nice guy by all accounts.

However, doing all that work makes his quality suffer, IMO. He definitely doesn't sculpt to the best of his ability most of the time.


Love the WIP figure. A few more good ones and I will likely kick in on this project. I really like the artwork for the Drones. Some of the WIP concept art looks decent but none of it is blowing my skirt up yet.

Keeping an eye on the project for sure though.

~Eric

Well I have never taken part in a kick starter before, however a good few of my mates would like a different game to 40k as they mostly play blood bowl, so a good well developed boxed game would be of interest, I missed out on sedition wars so I'm diving in this time.

Went for £190 option to get the set of mini's and collectors rule book, I'm a sucker for good books.

Hopefully this will work out and I can be part of developing something I will eventually have in my hand

I'd really like to see this one succeed, and I'd really like to see and help Rick Priestly realise his dream and retirement safety net, and it really is a "true" kickstarter as opposed to a CMON pre-order... but...

I'd potentially be willing to pay for the rules. But I'm not really interested in making them myself. OK that part is easy. but...

I'm not really willing to pay hundreds of dollars, sight unseen for figures I may or may not have any interest in - especially when I've already got thousands of dollars worth of proxies in my 40k collection, not to mention stuff like the Kev White sculpted Sedition Wars figures coming in a month or two. If a huge chunk of that cash is for figures, then I want to at least see concepts up front.

Strong concepts that the designers are open to feedback on for modification. I'm not really interested in "design by committee" figures from the people on their forums. Well, they might turn out to be cool, but I'm not paying for them upfront, sight unseen(!)


The other thing of course is that even if I do go in on this, I won't pledge money for this until the last minute (sorry guys!) The reason being the lack of Amazon Payments. I'm not giving my CC details to another dispersal company with permission to maybe debit me for a few hundred bucks. Not sure why KS can't use Amazon.co.uk, but anyway.

I guess these are a couple of things that puzzle me. While I'm not scared of foreign currency and buy things in US$ and GPP all the time, we all do know that American consumers are more likely to be scared off by foreign currencies, and that correspondingly campaigns in US$ do better than those using other currencies. I'm sure if the campaign was run on KS-US it would have made enough more to offset currency conversion costs.

Rick mentioned that they didn't have the "time" to set up a shell company? I dunno. I'm sure it's a fair bit of dicking around, but just like the lack of concept art (What do the Wardrones look like at least?) it seems a little bit rushed/half-arsed in a lot of ways.

While I do trust Rick to be able to come up with good rules, and I'm personally pretty indifferent about the amazing evolving universe (TM), it seems that if the campaign had been delayed by another month or so to get some concept art, some pre-renders of the wardrones, Kev's sculpt finished, and a US KS account it would be that much closer to success, and as such, I'd be a lot more likely to invest in it.

 scipio.au wrote:
What do the Wardrones look like at least?

Based on the first iteration concept art, the answer is "kibbly".

 AlexHolker wrote:

 scipio.au wrote:
What do the Wardrones look like at least?

Based on the first iteration concept art, the answer is "kibbly".

Great, you made me review my own transformer collection for kibbles


Though I did go through the topic a bit. It seems that even the drones technically dont have a set thing. Some people on their forums seem to want quad leg drones for example.

I am suddenly reminded of wgf forums for some reason

Also, half the point of the game is player interaction with the game designers. They didn't want to have concept art, or any finished models because they wanted to ask the players what the wanted to see first.

For example the Hansa model that has been shown in this forum, was sculpted after a lengthy discussion on the forums with interactions with Rick himself. Kevin White read that forum, and base on that feedback he is making the sculpt.

The same with all of the races and factions. There are discussions on how each race will look like, and how the various factions work (or don't work!) together.

We have already changed the nature of the game. There was a long discussion on whether this game was going to be 'hard science' or not. And at the end of that talk, it was decided (after defining what hard science is) that the game will not be hard science since it would be impossible to guess what our technological level will be in 7000 years. And so, 'hard science' was removed completely from the Kickstarter page/ website.

It's a new idea, it is a grass-root design system that has never been done before, where we see our suggestions work out in real time, and the game designers actually respond!

I think my opinion after some thought over the last week or so is that I hope this project gets funded, but it won't be getting funds from me. There's just not enough there yet. And the concept art so far has not helped. Not a fan of noisy kibbly design.

Cosmic_Seth wrote:

It's a new idea, it is a grass-root design system that has never been done before

I would add "successfully" to the end of that. I think that quite a few companies have advertised the customers/gamers will aid the designers of the game or miniatures which is why I had that wgf forum comment, remembering the days back when they originally attempted the LauL. I'm sure sometime in the past perhaps other fresh companies like Mantic or Defiance had some similar propositions.

Thanks for the info Cosmic, been lurking around the GoA forums but haven't been able to gauge how much of a impact the players are having on the development of this game so far, it's great to hear there is genuine change taking place and player feedback is having an positive effect. Like others I have been a little worried that this is going to be a repeat of WGF all over again, in the sense that those who scream the loudest get what they want.

One thing I am very curious about is how much player content will make it into the game, if any. There's a lot of activity in places like the "Species General" part of the forums with people creating some pretty decent little ideas for races, which with some work could become sub-factions/mercenaries/one-off units in the game.
Now as great as this is, is it actually going to have an effect? Are they ever going to be in the actual game/rulebooks as a "cannon" part of the GoA universe?, Or is player created content going to be limited to "foot-notes" in the fluff? I guess what I would like to know is the GoA "concept" as a whole going to expand to include outside ideas as a part of the development process or is it strictly limited by the creators vision in which the community is simply giving a "yay" or "nay" to pre-established ideas?

Well maybe that's a bit far off to answer right now, but I'm sure someone understands what I'm getting at here or I'm just being an over-active jerk again......

Either way I'm still tempted to try and help out a bit with this project, if I get round to it I might throw up some Pan-Human concepts (and any else I create that could be of use)in the development forums, I'm not a writer by any margin, but I can draw (to an "okay" degree) and sculpt.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 scipio.au wrote:
What do the Wardrones look like at least?

Based on the first iteration concept art, the answer is "kibbly".

Looks like they need my help on their forums more than I thought...

Someone should definitely say "no" to those gobots. That someone may even need to roll up a newspaper.


The background deserves better models!

Cosmic_Seth wrote:
Also, half the point of the game is player interaction with the game designers. They didn't want to have concept art, or any finished models because they wanted to ask the players what the wanted to see first.

For example the Hansa model that has been shown in this forum, was sculpted after a lengthy discussion on the forums with interactions with Rick himself. Kevin White read that forum, and base on that feedback he is making the sculpt.
....
It's a new idea, it is a grass-root design system that has never been done before, where we see our suggestions work out in real time, and the game designers actually respond!

That is certainly an interesting concept, but unfortunately doesn't mesh well with me paying £190/AU$300 (which would otherwise probably be my "most wanted" level) for unseen models. Design-by-committee doesn't inspire confidence.




I could potentially go in for the rulebook, perhaps.

Cosmic_Seth wrote:For example the Hansa model that has been shown in this forum, was sculpted after a lengthy discussion on the forums with interactions with Rick himself. Kevin White read that forum, and base on that feedback he is making the sculpt.

You mean the discussion that reached consensus on a grizzled veteran à la Han Solo or Mal Reynolds, the polar opposite of the armoured cyborg brute we're getting? That discussion?

We have already changed the nature of the game. There was a long discussion on whether this game was going to be 'hard science' or not. And at the end of that talk, it was decided (after defining what hard science is) that the game will not be hard science since it would be impossible to guess what our technological level will be in 7000 years. And so, 'hard science' was removed completely from the Kickstarter page/ website.

They were called on their bs and they backed down. Call me crazy but I'm not sure that qualifies as a game-changer.

It's a new idea, it is a grass-root design system that has never been done before, where we see our suggestions work out in real time, and the game designers actually respond!

It's the same design system we've seen over and over again, with the same illusion of input from the punters beyond serving as brainstorming monkeys. But now with regular internet polls. Woo. Hoo.

god.ra wrote:There is no rules, no models, just a couple of concepts, and one mini on their way.

Some of the models will have been sculpted years ago. The Boramites, for example, sound like an excuse to recycle Hasslefree Grymm.

_____

I want to like this project but the creators need to be honest about where they are in the design process so we can offer feedback based on that. Otherwise it's just the usual suspects uselessly beating their hobby horses.

Well, it's Rick Priestly who is awesome. 3rd Edition WFB is awesome and so is Rogue Trader. I think I'll go for this.

 judgedoug wrote:
Also glad to see everyone understands that this KS is not a preorder for a product from an established company, but actually funding the company and the development of it's product lines.

Regardless of what people call it, it is me (or you) giving money to a company and getting ??? in return. For Sedition Wars it was giving money for cutting molds, switching paper components to plastic, making even more molds. In return, we are being given product. With KD, we have a similar situation. And also with DreamForge as well. With Malifaux, we... well, I still don't know what they were expecting with that one.

Regardless, you cannot expect people to go into a kickstarter of any sort, freely handing over their money without any expectation of a return of some sort on their investment.