I really hope they don't go the space dwarfs route with the Boramites as the mining colonists type set up is something I'm very interested in and forms a good chunk of my 500 credits but not if they are a dwarf race - in fact it could be a deal breaker for me.
The times I do explode are not many, but after reading the last page it is about time... So excuse the rant, but it is well-deserved.
And they should have sculpted everything first, and had the rules complete. And they should have set a really small funding goal, like $10,000, to fund the ltd ed figure. And then stretch goals every 10k to "unlock" models that were already sculpted and scheduled to be released anyway. But only as add-ons. And then we could all be complaining that it was a preorder.
I don´t attack the above poster, he only put it all together conveniently and this makes it easier for me to tackle the bullets.
Sorry, but why oh why, does it seem that with guite some gamers there is only place for one concept within their mind? What the above quote describes is ONE possible way of doing it and not THE way of doing it. Read again what it says on the mission statement of the kickstarter page and you will find out that they are interested in seeing kickstarts developed in many different ways, depending on the kickstarter.
The above quote works fine with a board game that really does suffer when it is not fully developed and presented, but this thing is much more cpmplex and a simple approach does not do it justice?
> Sculpted?
Great idea when it is your basic idea that the gamers should be drawn in to decide what they want to be sculpted. So on the one hand many complain that GW does not listen what the gamers want and when one company starts to listen to them and asks them and sculpts the mninis they want then suddenly they were too lazu to sculpt something in advance?
> Rules complete?
If I do complain abot something, then I at least try to inform myself abot the topic I complain about. But that seems to be below them for quite some... The core rules are complete as stated on the forums, but they are still open for discussion and in case playtesting finds out that something does not work out it is going to be changed. So the basic skeleton is there, at the moment wer are fleshing it out with the parts we gamers want to see in the game. Oh, and don´t try it with: They should have playtested it to death before going public. As a game designer I do know that you can playtest as much as you want, one guy somwhere still will find a loophole you never even imagined. So only a full-blown field test will really do justice to some rules and guess what they are deoing from April and September on?
> 10.000 funding goal?
A white lie is still a white lie. Noone can start such a project with 10.000. 300.000 is the real number you need to achieve and I applaud them for being quite honest with it. Yeah, some TTKS do have such low goals, but If you ask them how much they really needed to get the thing running, then it quickly rises to six digit numbers. Also, according to my knowledge no TT of this scale has been realised on KS up until now. It was either board games, add-ons to existing lines or very small skirmish-systems, but now full-blown sf-tt like GoA.
> 10k stretch goals for KS minis
And with what money they would have funded the book, the infrastructure for the online meta-game, the forms for the miniatures, the money they have to pay Warlord Games for distribution. Folks, get real! KS minis are nice, but not so nice if you can´t fund the stuff you really need for the game.
Also having only one limited mini is quite a good idea, this way even those folks that die not participate in the KS do not have to worry about a deluge of rare minis they would love to field but can´t (or even worse, they would need it to make their faction working, as happnede with some other games in the past).
You mean the discussion that reached consensus on a grizzled veteran à la Han Solo or Mal Reynolds, the polar opposite of the armoured cyborg brute we're getting? That discussion?
Than we do read different forums. And if you would have read the fluff going with his faction you would know that he is not a cyborg but that this stuff on his body is part of the technology his faction uses.
They were called on their bs and they backed down. Call me crazy but I'm not sure that qualifies as a game-changer.
Oh, it is so convenient if you can put it the wy you want. The way I remember it we got asked what we wanted and after quite some discussions most of us agreed on something. Now calling this them backing away from their plan is really opportunistic. You claim they do not listen to the gamers and then you when they do listen you call them away-backers? Man, what do you want! Either decide to be on one side of the fence or the other, but don´t jump over it all the time. It´s those fencejumpers that I really hate.
It's the same design system we've seen over and over again, with the same illusion of input from the punters beyond serving as brainstorming monkeys. But now with regular internet polls. Woo. Hoo.
Again, one the one hand complaining about big GW not doing justice to their promises and when someone starts to change something about it they are the same as GW. Ye olde fencejumper again...
They already explained how it works and this system for a change does work since it already works in computer games, which surprise, surprise, one of the guys working for this company had to do with when working on computer games. They only need to transfer it to TTs.
That is certainly an interesting concept, but unfortunately doesn't mesh well with me paying £190/AU$300 (which would otherwise probably be my "most wanted" level) for unseen models. Design-by-committee doesn't inspire confidence.
Read the whole thread on their forum and you will find out that the picture has to do nothing with the direction the concept goes. Also, the sketches where only a first idea what could be possible. They present us with some fluff and pictures and we decide if we like them or not. That´s at least something we can start from and not working in empty space. Btw. most people can´t really express what they want, only what they don´t want. This forum is the best example for my claim.
And one last thing:
Some folks are willing to risk quite some money with some guys that already have tanked a company before and robbed people of their money only because they present some new shiny renders and some guys that have delievered quality work over the course of 3 decades, have always been very nice when spoken to in public, have been quite helpful when it came to problems with their games rules, have an stellar reputation when it comes to keeping their promises, those guys are less trustworthy than the first guys. If that really should be the case then something really is wrong in the state of TT-Denmark!
There are way more risky KS out there and the one that really has some guys that always delivered gets ridiculed as being untrustworthy? How long do you now wait for some of the KS stuff from some companies that got quite hyped with less credentials to their name. In one case I can remember it is one year already....
Duncan_Idaho wrote: I don´t attack the above poster, he only put it all together conveniently and this makes it easier for me to tackle the bullets.
Sorry, but why oh why, does it seem that with guite some gamers there is only place for one concept within their mind? What the above quote describes is ONE possible way of doing it and not THE way of doing it.
What the quote describes is a strawman. I suggested that the "ask for fan feedback to finalise the concept sketches" step should have come before the "asking for money" step instead of after, so that anyone pledging wouldn't have to worry about the rug being swept out from under them when the cat people are replaced with dog people, and Doug responded with that rant.
They were called on their bs and they backed down. Call me crazy but I'm not sure that qualifies as a game-changer.
Oh, it is so convenient if you can put it the wy you want. The way I remember it we got asked what we wanted and after quite some discussions most of us agreed on something. Now calling this them backing away from their plan is really opportunistic. You claim they do not listen to the gamers and then you when they do listen you call them away-backers?
DSC's plans were never for hard science fiction - from the start, they were talking about a universe where humans have replicators and bigger-on-the-inside TARDIS tech, awkwardly stapled around a skirmish game. The background hasn't changed, they've just stopped using the factually untrue claim that it makes sense.
I don´t attack the above poster, he only put it all together conveniently and this makes it easier for me to tackle the bullets.
READ my posts please in FULL!
Ahrg...
DSC's plans were never for hard science fiction - from the start, they were talking about a universe where humans have replicators and bigger-on-the-inside TARDIS tech, awkwardly stapled around a skirmish game. The background hasn't changed, they've just stopped using the factually untrue claim that it makes sense.
Please don´t mix up what some people in the forums write/want and what the team itself wrote. Also read the "definition of what is hard SF" thread.
I'm actually shocked that this is still pulling in £2K a day. Already only trending to 120%, it will likely drop below a 100% trend soon imo.
They need sculpts (or at least decent art), and they need them badly...
And Duncan, before I get bullet-pointed to death to me there is a difference between taking fan feedback on what people want sculpted... and asking for fan feedback AND MONEY before doing any sculpting . I'd love to give feedback to a company on what they put out- but I'm not going to pay in advance sight unseen, for concepts that might change, not even based on art, etc. With this project I would have less of an idea of what I'd be getting for my money than any other project I've backed.
You can go a long way on a clear idea, a few sculpts, and lots of concept art. But to have little to no art, no sculpts, and not even a clear idea... it is Not unfair to say that this is a Much riskier Kickstarter than most. Riskier than any I've seen, really, because while they may well deliver, What they will deliver is highly unknown at this point (and seemingly will remain that way "by design" throughout the campaign).
So, there's a difference between taking fan feedback, and asking fans to Fund (not just provide feedback on) things that are still in the early concept stages, imo.
Sorry, why should some people that have nearly all their life delivered on their promises sudenly stop doing so?
And why do some quite more quacky people get money thrown after them?
I guess I know the answer... but it does not bode well for other aspects of life.
Actually we do have sketches and minis of what the sculptors/artists have done in the past on a regular basis. And please explain to me again how a mini that is developed with the community supposed to have greens and sketches in advance?
The project itself is quite advanced when it comes to the core, but now the fleshing out is needed.
On the other hand, there is a difference between pure consumers and people that create something.
There's nothing about the kickstater that holds my interests. In general I love Kevin's sculpts but despite his amazing talent I'd like to see actual pieces for the game particuarly if they have near or non-human factions. Just because an artist might be a sculpting god does not mean that I am going to love a particular faction's design. There's no strong concept art showing any sort of broader range, to the artist the quick sketches can be meaningful but for those who aren't inside the artists head they look like scribbles on a dinner napkin.
No sampling of sculpts or range of artwork means there's no visual excitement to be had, making it very hard to sell your ideas. If you were trying to propse a building developement to a group of investors you'd have lots of concept art and maybe some scale models set up. Giving them a pile of blue prints and bulllet pointed lists won't sell the design, you need to make them "see" your idea and I think that where BGoA is falling short.
I threw in for Sedition Wars and Zombicide because I had lots of visuals to help me get inside the headspace of the game designers. There were pictures of enough models that i could establish as base line of what the range would look like and project what the unfinished pieces would look like. It was a bit of a shot in the dark on the rules end, but based on how complete their artistic vision was I didn't think they could drop the ball too badly.
I love sci fi games and I'd like to contribute but nothing about this seems particuarly organized and confident. It gives the feeling of a limp handshake and that's not good.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Sorry, why should some people that have nearly all their life delivered on their promises sudenly stop doing so?
Underlined the part where I addressed this
RiTides wrote: And Duncan, before I get bullet-pointed to death to me there is a difference between taking fan feedback on what people want sculpted... and asking for fan feedback AND MONEY before doing any sculpting . I'd love to give feedback to a company on what they put out- but I'm not going to pay in advance sight unseen, for concepts that might change, not even based on art, etc. With this project I would have less of an idea of what I'd be getting for my money than any other project I've backed.
You can go a long way on a clear idea, a few sculpts, and lots of concept art. But to have little to no art, no sculpts, and not even a clear idea... it is Not unfair to say that this is a Much riskier Kickstarter than most. Riskier than any I've seen, really, because while they may well deliver, What they will deliver is highly unknown at this point (and seemingly will remain that way "by design" throughout the campaign).
I'm not saying they won't deliver Something. I'm saying that what that "something" is a big unknown. You can point to past work as to their abilities, but that doesn't mean that whatever they make (and I'm sure they'll do a good job of it) is going to line up with what I want to buy.
For example, the above poster who is interested in the mining colonies (?) but not if they're dwarfs. When I buy / pledge towards a faction of a particular game, I like to have at least a general idea of what that faction is / will look like / etc!
Now that we have the initial figure listings posted I thought I'd just explain, especially for those who were eager to see how we were doing with the Vorl and Sims, how we arived at the initial list. I'd also like to stress that is IS the initial list, and in fact I've already drawn up a fairly extensive listing that covers additional models - including Vorl and Sims as well as much else.
With our target of 300K we figured out we could make about 50 models in all - with a mix of relatively simply single piece models, more complex multi-pieces with alternate parts, and character sculpts and larger models. Given that, we have concentrated out efforts to produce a first wave of models that covers as many bases as we can, primarily Revers and Pan types that can be used in all five human factions (which could be four as I am aiming to meld the Freebooters together - not quite worked that out yet). That's enough to provide sufficient troop types to produce a playable game with enough pose variation so that units can take on a varied appearance. I thought we should include at least some NuHu to start with as they are pivotal to two of the factions and also to the back story.
So - the Sims and Vorl are awaiting progress with the kickstarter or will become a priority once we are trading - depending on how well we do with the kickstarter and what finds are available. It is plainly impossible to do everything at once, and so we have cut our cloth accordingly.
Amongst the Sims and Vorl planned are some already mentioned as examples in our custom credit system - and these are - of course - included to give you an idea of what the various credit levels amount to. If we can get past our initial target then we can start to expand out the range.
With our target of 300K we figured out we could make about 50 models in all - with a mix of relatively simply single piece models, more complex multi-pieces with alternate parts, and character sculpts and larger models.
And I'll say again: that's not good value for your Kickstarter dollar. There's a reason kickstarters for metals are usually so cheap, and it's because the up-front costs for metal are low. Even if we allocate $150,000 for the wardrones and $50,000 for the rules, that's still $6,000 per 28mm metal model added to the line.
With our target of 300K we figured out we could make about 50 models in all - with a mix of relatively simply single piece models, more complex multi-pieces with alternate parts, and character sculpts and larger models.
And I'll say again: that's not good value for your Kickstarter dollar. There's a reason kickstarters for metals are usually so cheap, and it's because the up-front costs for metal are low. Even if we allocate $150,000 for the wardrones and $50,000 for the rules, that's still $6,000 per 28mm metal model added to the line.
I'm not sure how much having the living universe system online costs and the custom hansa.
AlexHolker wrote: There's a reason kickstarters for metals are usually so cheap, and it's because the up-front costs for metal are low. Even if we allocate $150,000 for the wardrones and $50,000 for the rules, that's still $6,000 per 28mm metal model added to the line.
It depends if they are calculating the cost of spincasting equipment into that. A typical 32mm model will likely cost around $1,000 to have sculpted and molded (maybe $1,500 if factor in a top end artist) However a commercial grade metal spin caster is likely going to run 16-20k by itself (and they still need to buy melters and vulcanizers). If they want a good size production capacity they will need several, 3-4 machines can easily eat up as much as a third of their projected 300k goal.
You can get second hand equipment cheaper but that's not something you want to gamble on if you are launching a large scale venture. Outsourcing the casting works but costs more, and leaves you dependant on the other company which might lead to supply issues. Which is why when Privateer started up they opted to do casting in house.
I wish they had chosen some actual diversity in their model range. "Futuristic humans" is the last thing they need to stand out from the crowd, especially since Kev White already sculpts two different competing lines.
Honestly, I was hoping for something different. Every idea they seem to throw out there becomes less interesting. Simians? Sure, let's hit that saturated market. Cat people? That won't put this company in an uncomfortable niche! Future humans? Someone has to try and sell some, might as well be us and 100 other companies. Robots that look like transformers rejects? That's what's hot right now!
Firstly, gameplay video - definitely looks interesting and as a friend of mine commented, very flowing. The interrupt mechanic doesn't look as stop-start as something like Infinity (which it gets away with because of the small miniature count) but perhaps something more like Starship Troopers? Personally I like the look of this as being done at a 'squad level' (like Ambush Alley/Tomorrow's War) rather than something like 40k which sits uneasily between the mechanics for a skirmish level game and one being done at squad/platoon level.
And Hansa Part 3, don't know if anyone else has posted this yet?
++EDIT++ And guys, the whole purpose of this KS having a 2-month run time was so that feedback could be put forward regarding design concepts, and the way the game works. So far the people who have pledged the money to this KS are the ones who like the concept of its background, the idea of helping develop the universe on their forums, and perhaps the idea of an evolving real-time universe. This isn't the same as the kind of KS which works to get funding for a miniature line already largely created, but I would expect the amount pledged to go up a great deal once the first completed greens/concepts are posted, the first alpha-versions of the rules and also trial online-episodes are revealed (which, from what I gather, should all be during the course of this Kickstarter).
I think a lot of complaint here is from people who don't fully understand the targets and method plan that has been put forward for GoA.
Many people are forgetting what kickstarter originally stood for.
Kickstarter isn't a pre-order service =) IMHO this is one of the most real wargaming kickstarter projects i've seen sofar.
Kickstarting a game that already has a range of models and rules...is actually missing the point of kickstarter, what doesn't mean it's a great way of expanding the range and income.
I wanted to post here before I did anything else this evening
We know we're doing something a little different from the other table top guys, and hats off to them for wisely using Kickstarter in a way that's beneficial to them. Kickstarter can be utilised in many different ways, and one of the ways is to get new ideas off the ground that wouldn't normally get the chance, which is what our kickstarter is all about.
We know that not everyone will buy in or even like the idea, but we're on KS so that we can find out. We put a long time frame on our KS so that we could adapt if we needed to and of course, because we're asking for so much money. The 300k is the minimum required to create a game (from where we are) with a decent enough miniature range which is of great quality - we ran the numbers a billion times to make sure. We thought about doing it the 20k route, but that would have meant that we couldn't have legally gone onto KS and offered the whole range of rewards that we have, which would have reduced us to simply offering the book until we got there and then only offering a couple of miniatures per stretch, all of which, we thought, would completely hamper our ability to hit the 300k we actually needed to make the game. So we put the min at 300 so that if it does come off (and fingers crossed there!) we get to make the great game we have planned.
We would have loved to have more concepts and miniatures out there, but we just didn't have the money in order to pay for that. All of the people involved have worked the last 5 months without getting paid - and I'm not complaining here, I'm happy to bet my life on things I believe in - so regardless of how much time we'll applied to GoA we still wouldn't have had more things to show. So we did a deal with a very kind company who said they would lend us some money to start paying some sculptors and artists, but they wanted it launched and wanted to see how it would go first. I'm happy to say they lent us the money, so we started Kev and a number of others off in order to respond to the feedback we've been having and hopefully gather some more pace on KS. It's not much money, but if we use it wisely it's hopefully enough to cover some of the main concerns and get us funded.
We get lots of comments saying we should just put more concepts out, and we do have the option of rushing things out, but to be honest, we're not really into that. We don't think you'll respond well to us doing that anyway, so we're trying to make sure that we do it right, which unfortunately just takes a little time. We do have things in the pipe now that we hope will impress and have some great updates coming through that will show you what we've been up to and give everyone the chance to play the pre-alpha game (by the end of next week if all goes to plan!) as we know that’s a big concern to some people too.
Ultimately we're in your hands, if you decide you'd like to be part of GoA then thank you, we truly appreciate your support. If not, no worries, thanks for reading this anyway, please remember that we're just a small company right now, we're only human and we're trying our hardest to make this successful.
Personally, I understand and feel this is how kickstarter can (should?) be used in its purest form.
I am more interested in the potential of this and what it will mean by succeeding that the little details of it, I understand that from a design perspective the miniatures are not really important, that is important are the rules, internal and external balance and the "fluff", the miniatures and artwork are the least important thing, the most time consuming and expensive, but also what people are drawn into.
For anyones whos intrested theres a "Game Rules - Actions Explanation Video" just been added to the update section of the KS page. BTW thanks for the post Rik, would love to see this project be sucessful, hopefully the pleages will pick up a bit as the updates flow in.
On the other hand, there is a difference between pure consumers and people that create something.
Oh Duncan. You make me laugh so. Your "game designers can do no wrong/I hate the punters" mentality is always good for a laugh when I see your otherwise-ignored posts through someone else quoting you.
I love sci fi games and I'd like to contribute but nothing about this seems particuarly organized and confident. It gives the feeling of a limp handshake and that's not good.
That's because you're a pure consumer. Not someone who creates anything!
With our target of 300K we figured out we could make about 50 models in all - with a mix of relatively simply single piece models, more complex multi-pieces with alternate parts, and character sculpts and larger models.
And I'll say again: that's not good value for your Kickstarter dollar. There's a reason kickstarters for metals are usually so cheap, and it's because the up-front costs for metal are low. Even if we allocate $150,000 for the wardrones and $50,000 for the rules, that's still $6,000 per 28mm metal model added to the line.
Finally managed to get off my bum and manually enter my cc information! I bet if every time you had wanted to pledge if you had to enter your cc number that people would not be as quick to pledge.
Im in at the feeder level which is a nice little chunk of change for me. I have wanted to pledge since day one but i was lazy to put in that info i admit.
Watching the game play videos i am very pleased of how the mechanics of the game are starting to shape up. I have been looking for a game that maxes out around 30-40 miniatures to give it that fire fight /escalating skirmish type of feel of a game.
And I agree with most of the people that are scared they did not see many concepts and fear that they may be pledging blind. That is all understandable but as it was explained to us just now i figured that they have a very small budget to begin with so they weren't able to fully put into action what they wanted to show us without further funding.
Do i think it would of been better to start low/minimal and start adding factions as stretches? Not too sure though it would of seemed great at least we know from the start that if we do hit the goal that we will get a load of variety in miniatures from almost all of the mentioned factions.
Even if you pledge a minimum to add some input on the kickstarter why not go for it? You can always retract your bid if things are not how you wanted them to be after all its still a month and change away till finish. If you dont have any more room why not contribute via the forums hey maybe they will add something in there that you really like and then decide its worth pledging.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Personally, I understand and feel this is how kickstarter can (should?) be used in its purest form.
I am more interested in the potential of this and what it will mean by succeeding that the little details of it, I understand that from a design perspective the miniatures are not really important, that is important are the rules, internal and external balance and the "fluff", the miniatures and artwork are the least important thing, the most time consuming and expensive, but also what people are drawn into.
I agree that it is a very "pure" kickstarter. From a design perspective the miniatures may not be that important, but when you're asking people to take a £200 leap of faith, well, most of that £200 is for miniatures. Otherwise it'd be for £30 and £50 books. I'd also argue that the aesthetics of the miniatures are more important then the fluff. I care more about good models than pages of fanfic about cat people, monkey people, or the latest round of biotech humans. I just can't justify one of the larger pledges with unseen models that could be anything at this stage. I can perhaps justify a basic rulebook under the heading of "support Rick Priestly". The fact that this is as much as I can justify to myself at this stage is a real shame.
Scipio, game designers can do a lot wrong and you should hear me rant when some crashes his company due to pure stupidity or financial ignorance.
BUT: I have too much a practical background in diverse fields that I can ignore statements that are absolutly wrong.
And noone asks you to pledge 200 pounds, pledge as much as you want and pledge more or less until the KS ends.
What I really don´t get is that quite some people that complain all day on Dakka, suddenly get the chance to change something but then don´t do anything or even deride it because it means change.
I don´t have problems with people that are not interested in the KS. But I do have problems with people that more or less openly want this KS to fail. And there are some in this thread.
For those crunching the numbers: I expect that the funding goal includes setting the company up - an office, staff costs, etc.
It is good that the company have noticed the desire for more information, and are trying to accommodate. I can imagine that they are between a rock and a hard place, so it is good that they are managing to come through and help the KS with some solid information and whatnot. As others have said, it is a 'pure' kickstarter; but that still doesn't mean that people don't want to know what it is that they are getting...
Quite an interesting poll at the moment on how morale/unit breaking will function.
At the moment a mixed system, with damage determining fighting effectiveness of 'machine' type units, and 'morale' for organics seemingly quite popular
PsychoticStorm wrote: Personally, I understand and feel this is how kickstarter can (should?) be used in its purest form.
I am more interested in the potential of this and what it will mean by succeeding that the little details of it, I understand that from a design perspective the miniatures are not really important, that is important are the rules, internal and external balance and the "fluff", the miniatures and artwork are the least important thing, the most time consuming and expensive, but also what people are drawn into.
I agree that it is a very "pure" kickstarter. From a design perspective the miniatures may not be that important, but when you're asking people to take a £200 leap of faith, well, most of that £200 is for miniatures. Otherwise it'd be for £30 and £50 books. I'd also argue that the aesthetics of the miniatures are more important then the fluff. I care more about good models than pages of fanfic about cat people, monkey people, or the latest round of biotech humans. I just can't justify one of the larger pledges with unseen models that could be anything at this stage. I can perhaps justify a basic rulebook under the heading of "support Rick Priestly". The fact that this is as much as I can justify to myself at this stage is a real shame.
We know. You've posted this at least 17 times now in the thread now, to the point where it's not so much you've told everyone, but more like a Vinnie-special 2-legged tackle to the rear . While we are not at 'Kroothawk in a Mantic thread' stage yet, you're getting dangerously close
We know. You've posted this at least 17 times now in the thread now, to the point where it's not so much you've told everyone, but more like a Vinnie-special 2-legged tackle to the rear . While we are not at 'Kroothawk in a Mantic thread' stage yet, you're getting dangerously close
The gist of it (before I repeated myself) was that I disagree that the miniatures are less important from a design perspective than the "fluff". In the Good Old Days(tm) of GW, the sculptors made cool models and the rules guys made rules for them based on the models. Fluff can be nice when it's well done, but the aesthetics of the models is far more important.
Duncan - the thing is I actually would like to pledge £200 for the "sweet spot". With apologies to Pacific, there's just not enough on show for me to do so at this stage. Which is why this KS makes me sad.
Pacific wrote: Quite an interesting poll at the moment on how morale/unit breaking will function.
At the moment a mixed system, with damage determining fighting effectiveness of 'machine' type units, and 'morale' for organics seemingly quite popular
I get the impression from Rick's replies that it will likely remain the same for both types for the moment - I've heard 'compute' rather than 'morale' being the term for inorganics. Of course, this is likely to change during beta testing if people prefer two different kinds.
Rik, don't know if I've missed this somewhere, but could you explain what the "Big Bang Reward Tier" is about that is mentioned at the Singularity level, please?
We know. You've posted this at least 17 times now in the thread now, to the point where it's not so much you've told everyone, but more like a Vinnie-special 2-legged tackle to the rear . While we are not at 'Kroothawk in a Mantic thread' stage yet, you're getting dangerously close
The gist of it (before I repeated myself) was that I disagree that the miniatures are less important from a design perspective than the "fluff". In the Good Old Days(tm) of GW, the sculptors made cool models and the rules guys made rules for them based on the models. Fluff can be nice when it's well done, but the aesthetics of the models is far more important.
Duncan - the thing is I actually would like to pledge £200 for the "sweet spot". With apologies to Pacific, there's just not enough on show for me to do so at this stage. Which is why this KS makes me sad.
And that for me is a fundamental flaw in the entire GW ecosystem Models > Fluff> Rules is the wrong way to go, Rules > Fluff > Models is the correct way to have a balanced functioning ecosystem were the background is correct and consistent and trust me any decent concept artist and miniature sculptor can make a great model from an established rules and background, making a great model and then figuring our how to stick it to the established fluff and rules needs a master game designer to pull it off and even then it is really hard to do so.
In my belief of course when you want to establish an IP and an ecosystem, the models is the least you need to worry, hire decent sculptors, have an established background for the concept artist to work with and its a really short time you need until you have them in your hands, on the other hand, to making the background and rules stand for themselves and above the competition is both time consuming and more industrious because you set everything the artist needs to work from.
If the models were the focal point of this kickstarter, like every other model oriented kickstarter a loose background, or no background at all would be needed and a concept for each miniature unlocked at each level would be available.
What I really don´t get is that quite some people that complain all day on Dakka, suddenly get the chance to change something but then don´t do anything or even deride it because it means change.
I don´t have problems with people that are not interested in the KS. But I do have problems with people that more or less openly want this KS to fail. And there are some in this thread.
@Duncan,
People on this Forum have the choice to make a change to the current state of the hobby. If they are unhappy with GWs pricing structure, processes and figure quality, then they should do something. Show a vote of no confidence in GW's management with their wallets and STOP BUYING TOYS, as an organisation GW are getting to the point where hard core gamers re really questioning if they can justify the costs involved in making ongoing purchases when the costs keep going up for no appreciable reason other than GW's greed and policy of alienating older gamers and not supporting them.
The trouble with that is, people won't stop buying toys, they will maybe buy less of them, which puts GW in a position where in order to make the same amount of money for its shareholders they need to charge more to generate the same level of profit.
Sadly, no-one seems to have told the bean counters that if they reduced the prices, people would return to the hobby and buy more toys, ah well....
As for the KS
I don't think anyone here actually wants to see this KS fail, there's just an awful lot of things that they are doing that seem a bit half @rsed and badly thought out. Look at it form a purely sales perspective here. "We've got this great idea for a game, its going to be Sci-Fi, small to medium scale with a full new miniature line, we want the public to help drive the story arc" Sounds awesome so far, so show me some models or some concept sketches, excite me.... Ah, we can only show you stuff that our sculptor has done for other people? And that cool alien is a conversion/hodgepodge of stuff from other companies figs" Its not a particuarly convincing sales approach...
They are drip feeding stuff to the "investing" public now, but they've missed out on the initial buzz and thats putting them into a bad position. The stuff they are putting out now is ok'ish, but still not enough to get a mini junkie like me frothing at the mouth and getting my wallet out.
The updates have been few and far between and for something that is taking ideas and suggestions from the buying public aren't great, they are asking for our engagement and then NOT engaging with us.
This is why I think a lot of people are giving them such short shrift, we've seen other kickstarters go stellar, and this just isn't ticking those boxes right now.
Is Rik likely to produce an exciting and interesting games system, yes, clearly.
Can Kev sculpt cool and exciting mini's, yes.
Two ticks in boxes, nice, well done, however, don't tell me what you are going to do, show me. If they went to a bank with the pitch they put onto kickstarter, even with the pedigree of Rik, they would have been laughed out of the place and told to come back when they had some better information and more of a plan.
I hope it works, as I think that the hobby space is crying out for a new Sci-Fi system with a well thought out and beautifully crafted background, I just don't believe that at the moment this delivers.
Have I pledged, yes.
Do I believe I will have to make good on that pledge? Sadly not.
And that for me is a fundamental flaw in the entire GW ecosystem Models > Fluff> Rules is the wrong way to go, Rules > Fluff > Models is the correct way to have a balanced functioning ecosystem were the background is correct and consistent and trust me any decent concept artist and miniature sculptor can make a great model from an established rules and background, making a great model and then figuring our how to stick it to the established fluff and rules needs a master game designer to pull it off and even then it is really hard to do so.
Rules don't need 300k pounds to fund though -_- At that level of funding, I think people expect to see some miniatures. Plus they're not just selling rules are they? Their pledges have miniatures in them, so despite what you say, obviously the miniatures are going to be important.
PsychoticStorm wrote: And that for me is a fundamental flaw in the entire GW ecosystem Models > Fluff> Rules is the wrong way to go, Rules > Fluff > Models is the correct way to have a balanced functioning ecosystem were the background is correct and consistent and trust me any decent concept artist and miniature sculptor can make a great model from an established rules and background, making a great model and then figuring our how to stick it to the established fluff and rules needs a master game designer to pull it off and even then it is really hard to do so.
In my belief of course when you want to establish an IP and an ecosystem, the models is the least you need to worry, hire decent sculptors, have an established background for the concept artist to work with and its a really short time you need until you have them in your hands, on the other hand, to making the background and rules stand for themselves and above the competition is both time consuming and more industrious because you set everything the artist needs to work from.
There are two good reasons why we think the miniatures are more important than the rules. One, as players we do not have access to the capital and infrastructure necessary to produce our own multipart plastic kits, while we do have the tools we need to write or modify a ruleset. Two, making different models of equal quality expands our options, by letting us buy what we think looks best. Making different rulesets of equal quality reduces our options, by causing Balkanisation of the player base and thus making it harder to find someone who knows how to play the same game as you.
Let's just assume that the rules and the background are absolutely beyond doubt the best thing since sliced bread.
That would make the current GBP 25,- pledge the sweet spot of this Kickstarter.
For GBP 25,-, I would get a ~270 page full-colour rulebook with all those amazing Rick Priestly rules, the great fluff, AND I get the one miniature that is Kickstarter exclusive on top.
I am in. I am a backer. The snippets of rules, background and Hansa have convinced me to pledge 25 quid.
Now.... they need to convince me to pledge more, because frankly it wont fund, if the "sweet-spot" of this Kickstarter is a measly GDP 25,- per backer.
However, I haven't seen anything that convinced my to pledge more, for something in addition to the book and the Hansa figure.
It looks like the project has really stalled out over the last few days, which is unfortunate. I think maybe the folks at DSC need to step back if momentum can't be regained soon and reassess the pitch.
A thought if I may. Scale back the KS to the rules (along with the collectors edition of them), allow miniature credits as an add-on, but not the primary focus and maintain the current timeline. This should get you up and running for the alpha and beta as well as give some level of basic funding towards development of the miniatures. Work on the concept art and fluff for some of the factions in the meantime. During the alpha, launch a second KS around the focused factions to bring those into development and then a third KS during the beta.
The biggest problem I see here is that KS is different things to different people and the current appeal is only to folks who want to jump in and be part of something when it's still just an idea. Given the amount you're looking for, there really needs to be crossover into the folks who use KS for pre-orders and those who look to fund the final polish of a mostly complete idea.
The rules will cater to the first group. Focus on a set of factions during the alpha will appeal to the second group and the final push during beta will appeal to the third.
From the consumer's perspective the miniatures are a solid interchangeable functional piece that has the most value, I am not arguing that many if not most here will be far more interested in the miniatures than anything else, if the resent kicstarters are anything to go by most joined for the miniatures to use them on something else.
But from the companies perspective, the ones who do not want to just sell miniatures for something else but create their own IP and establish themselves, the miniatures are not that important, yes they are important, because this is what you will sell to the consumers and this is what will attract the consumers, but the entire ecosystem (rules and background) that the miniatures will promote it the fundamental part, what will diversify the company from the others.
For me I see in front of me a paradox, people complained all this time that CMON's kickstarters are a glorified preorder that the kickstarter was not needed and they do it for promotional mainly with some slight benefit in making some components better like card counters to plastic and the you have a pure "we intend to do this" kickstarter as I said earlier a "pure" kickstarter and people complain that it is not near completion (and a glorified preorder).
I have a decade to touch publishing (so prices must have fallen) and my country was always on the expensive side, but, publishing a book is quite expensive, beyond the actual writing and editing, there is layout, illustration and of course printing and of course storage and distribution, they do add up, not sure if they would add up to 300k but half of that or more would not surprise me at all.
The sum is, yes I can understand that miniatures are great to see, but I also understand why the game mechanics and background are seen as more important (or more pressing) to the company.
There are several other KS where the cost of publishing a book doesn't come to 300k pounds. The closest I can think of right now is http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1176616619/shadows-of-esteren-a-medieval-horror-rpg-prologue where for a goal of 3,000usd you get a 140 page RPG book. And there's also malifaux which ended recently, which required less minimum cash and had about the same amount of pages iirc.
And there's a difference between a glorified pre-order and you know, actually having something on the table. It's like if you're a teacher and one of your students comes up to you with his big project and instead of showing you anything, he tells you 'this project can be whatever you want it to be'
For me, the gold standard of game book publishing via Kickstarter was the Robin D. Laws 'Hillfolk' RPG -- started out with modest goals ($3,000) but offered so many stretch goals and bonuses, and looked so damn good, and built on so many years of work, that it pulled in nearly $100,000. For a tabletop RPG book, not tied to an existing IP, that's incredibly, outrageously successful.
Dysartes wrote: Rik, don't know if I've missed this somewhere, but could you explain what the "Big Bang Reward Tier" is about that is mentioned at the Singularity level, please?
The Big Bang reward tier is listed on the Kickstarter site and is the £1 level. This gets you access to the Alpha and Beta PDF documents and access to the development forum after the Kickstarter finishes.
I am in. I am a backer. The snippets of rules, background and Hansa have convinced me to pledge 25 quid.
Now.... they need to convince me to pledge more, because frankly it wont fund, if the "sweet-spot" of this Kickstarter is a measly GDP 25,- per backer.
However, I haven't seen anything that convinced my to pledge more, for something in addition to the book and the Hansa figure.
I see your point, but the way I look at it is that I'm happy to put in more because I really want to see the project happen. In other words, a low pledge might make sense from a "risk" point of view, since we don't yet know exactly what we're buying, but if everyone puts in low pledges we risk not seeing the game/book/fluff/models at all.
I'm pretty sure that the onus is on the company if they want they money to show us stuff that will actually get us to pledge that amount of money and not on us to back it just because 'hey, this might turn out to be something good'
Here's my problem: if they went through normal investment channels, this wouldn't be funded. There isn't enough tangible information. They'd require concept art. They'd require a better sense of the sculpts. They'd need a draft look at the rules. So far, this KS offers little of that.
I think its more of an issue of the economy, established players on the field and the general reluctance of all to commit on the sci fi field instead of the yet another sword and sorcery world for some reason.
Beyond that normal channels demand parts of the IP and have "creative input" on what you will do, something kickstarter bypasses.
I am in. I am a backer. The snippets of rules, background and Hansa have convinced me to pledge 25 quid.
Now.... they need to convince me to pledge more, because frankly it wont fund, if the "sweet-spot" of this Kickstarter is a measly GDP 25,- per backer.
However, I haven't seen anything that convinced my to pledge more, for something in addition to the book and the Hansa figure.
I see your point, but the way I look at it is that I'm happy to put in more because I really want to see the project happen. In other words, a low pledge might make sense from a "risk" point of view, since we don't yet know exactly what we're buying, but if everyone puts in low pledges we risk not seeing the game/book/fluff/models at all.
And that would be a real shame.
I want to see it get funded, too...if for no other reason than a hope that they will put their money where their mouth is and finally make a true competitor for 40k. I'd like to see a company come out of nowhere and make GW sweat for once, and all the better if said company has former GW employees heading it. But it's perfectly sensible for people to hold on to their money at this point, I feel, and I don't want to start seeing people get shamed for not putting down more.
Edited this to sound less confrontational, lol...maybe I overreacted a bit, I dunno.
In any case I tried to pledge £25 for the rulebook and Hansa, since that's really all I can afford to risk, but it won't take my credit card for some reason. Just keep getting an error telling me to try again.
Good post. On top of all this, if the project does not get funded (which is a real possibility) then there's nothing stopping them from working on it in the meantime with the community they're already building and trying again in 6 months - only more prepared and better worked out with more concept art, more greens, a US-based shell company, etc etc.
Sidstyler wrote: I want to see it get funded, too...if for no other reason than a hope that they will put their money where their mouth is and finally make a true competitor for 40k. I'd like to see a company come out of nowhere and make GW sweat for once, and all the better if said company has former GW employees heading it. But it's perfectly sensible for people to hold on to their money at this point, I feel, and I don't want to start seeing people get shamed for not putting down more.
I feel very similarly. At this point I would like very much for them to create a true competitor for GW. However, with the way they present their business I think this is essentially impossible. My true hope for them to reach greatness is for them to fail to achieve funding, for them to have to seriously crack down and figure out what their business needs to beat GW, get some product or concept to show for it, and then to come back with a vengeance and get as much funding as they need.
Well, I'm in fro 125 GBP. It may be ill-considered, but they sound like they have their heads in the right place. There is still time for them to impress the world with WIP.
Surely you might as well bid at the level you want to bid at?
You don't lose the money until it gets funded.
If it doesn't get funded, no money is taken.
If it does end up getting funded and you, for example, don't like the look of the models once they're shown, you change your pledge level lower down.
Therefore, you might as well pledge the level that you genuinely want in 'best case circumstances' to ensure that the project is funded after all...
Compel wrote: Surely you might as well bid at the level you want to bid at?
You don't lose the money until it gets funded.
If it doesn't get funded, no money is taken.
If it does end up getting funded and you, for example, don't like the look of the models once they're shown, you change your pledge level lower down.
Therefore, you might as well pledge the level that you genuinely want in 'best case circumstances' to ensure that the project is funded after all...
You can't change your funding once the thing finishes, or at least you can't reduce it.
And you know what's even more logical? Not funding for things you're uncertain of.
The extension of that logic is that you may as well pledge beyond your best case, to ensure that it gets funded. You can always drop it down at the last moment. Let's all go pledge thousands of dollars now!!1!
No. better to pledge what you're happy and comfortable with spending at the time you pledge. If it doesn't hit the goal then there's something wrong with the campaign or what's on offer.
This kickstarter is in many ways different from others. Most of the other KS did show us no, few or limited game rules. i.e. the nature of the games limited them to not as many pages for the core rules as the usual TT has. And this is a full-blown
The problem i see: how else can you transfer that much information without loosing the interest of of the gamers and don´t be mistaken, gamers are a fickle crowd that goes for the TT of the week if it is shiny and new. I`ve wittnessed this much too often.
So, starting the info-campaign earlier might have been possible, but if you do not have anything at stake you normally don´t care as much. But if you invest money into something you much more care that it turns out positive. There might be some mistakes in this campaign. But since it is the first of its kind (a full-blown gaming universe and TT) there had to be some mistakes.
Also: We do have 2 months to go and in my opinion there is no need to break records, it just needs to reach its goal. Suddenly there seems to be a competition going on on KS to be the next one KS that sets the bar higher. I don´t see the need for this. So, if we somehow hit the 300.000 or just a little more that wil kickstart the engine of this company. And from what I know it has everything in it to run from then on without too many problems.
What many don´t see: DSC has made its homwork in the not so shiny areas of gaming, that is thorrough financial plans, logistics and core game structure. Problem is: that´s hard to sell. Tentacle Bento might have been quite successfull, but to be honest the game is absolutly boring and only shines through its graphics and theme. Maybe we sometimes let us too much be fooled by shiny things.
Think the plate-style armour works well, and as has been said the 'tache could easily bump GoA above the required £300,000 all on its own
The moral/fighting capacity mechanic seems very interesting. Again it's something that has worked well with Ambush Alley and other squad-based systems, and I can imagine it combining very well with the reaction mechanic. You'll get squads sprinting for cover, with another trying to hit an opposing squad (so they keep their head down) while they do so. In other words, a lot of potential for tactical input, or mistakes to be made, on behalf of the player. Means I will most likely suck at the game but what can you do?
It's still not something I care to own, but I think the shaved head + moustache looks quite interesting. It certainly makes him stand out as a special character.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: This kickstarter is in many ways different from others. Most of the other KS did show us no, few or limited game rules. i.e. the nature of the games limited them to not as many pages for the core rules as the usual TT has. And this is a full-blown
The problem i see: how else can you transfer that much information without loosing the interest of of the gamers and don´t be mistaken, gamers are a fickle crowd that goes for the TT of the week if it is shiny and new. I`ve wittnessed this much too often.
So, starting the info-campaign earlier might have been possible, but if you do not have anything at stake you normally don´t care as much. But if you invest money into something you much more care that it turns out positive. There might be some mistakes in this campaign. But since it is the first of its kind (a full-blown gaming universe and TT) there had to be some mistakes.
Also: We do have 2 months to go and in my opinion there is no need to break records, it just needs to reach its goal. Suddenly there seems to be a competition going on on KS to be the next one KS that sets the bar higher. I don´t see the need for this. So, if we somehow hit the 300.000 or just a little more that wil kickstart the engine of this company. And from what I know it has everything in it to run from then on without too many problems.
What many don´t see: DSC has made its homwork in the not so shiny areas of gaming, that is thorrough financial plans, logistics and core game structure. Problem is: that´s hard to sell. Tentacle Bento might have been quite successfull, but to be honest the game is absolutly boring and only shines through its graphics and theme. Maybe we sometimes let us too much be fooled by shiny things.
But Duncan, its the shiny things that sell games. I play Miniature wargames, without the miniatures I personally won't play the game, and I'm not alone in this. If all you are looking for is a concept of something cool, I can probably sell you a bridge from London?
Well, Kicktraq changed their projections to reflect the previous day in pledges.
By the pledges this is currently getting, it will not get there. Fact.
Kicktraq's trending 323.000 GDP, somewhat over the goal. But it obviously includes the first few days and has been falling since. I expect it to fall below the goal tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.
Yes, I know that many, if not most Kickstarters get a "final days rally". But that is where the problem is. Those final-days rallies are an expression of the cascade of an ever-better-deal fueled by Stretch-goals and the "entertainment" of being glued to the screen, figuring out what the next "stretch-goal" might be.
Without a stretch-goal in sight, except for the final days, and with stretch goals being rather abstract, rather than "OMG! OMG! OMG! What could it be?", it will (in my humble opinion) not get that final-days-rally.
More of my thoughts on this in my sig.
And no, I don't want this project to fail. Yes, I am a backer. Thus, I am worried because I believe it will fail, not because I want it too.
Nope, not a member of this team, but after over a decade in the gaming business as a freelancer that has worked for quite some of the small, middle and big companies I simply do my homework.
Sadly still way enough TT companies are still gamers/artists and do not pay as much attenttion to the business side. So I am quite happy when I discover a company that gets the not so shiny parts right. This will allow them to be around quite longer.
And to be honest, I do have my doubts that some of the more successful KS will be as positive for the companies involved as they intended. For several reasons I will not give any names, but anyone who has some production background and knows the numbers normally involved can do the math. That does not mean that I think the KS product will not be delievered, but it might hurt those companies in a way they did not expect.
And to be honest, I do have my doubts that some of the more successful KS will be as positive for the companies involved as they intended. For several reasons I will not give any names, but anyone who has some production background and knows the numbers normally involved can do the math. That does not mean that I think the KS product will not be delievered, but it might hurt those companies in a way they did not expect.
That sounds like a good quality to have, if you're offering your "backers" equity in your company or a solid annual ROI
Seems largely irrelevant if you are offering your "backers" shiny products in return for their pledge.
For a company that wants to convince "investors" with sound accounting, rather than "shiny-toys", Kickstarter.com seems an odd place to go instead of .. for example., www.rbs.co.uk or www.hsbc.co.uk/
For all the business smarts you see in them, they might've simply picked the wrong place to pitch their project based on their own internal SWOT-analysis or whatever.
I like the direction Hansa is going in, love the moustache, do not love the round buttplates. ^^ But Kev can and likely will change those.
All in all, the prospect of influencing the project leave me quite cold, I play what I like and there is no lack of choice nowadays. And in case I wanted a certain ruleset, I´d do it myself. But I am lazy and as I said there are soooo many good rules out there, I don´t care. So I am in the boat of give me more miniature goodness or the like, the project being closer to the real intent of kickstarter or not.
Round buttplates are bad. I'm really not sure why they were thinking watching this miniature develop would bring in the pledges. It's very niche and has elements that can easily turn people off.
agustin wrote: Round buttplates are bad. I'm really not sure why they were thinking watching this miniature develop would bring in the pledges. It's very niche and has elements that can easily turn people off.
Well, the cynical part of me wonders if it isn't because they really don't have anything else to show us at the moment so they're forced to feed us one miniature drip by drip so as to distract us with the 'oooh shiny' part.
agustin wrote: Round buttplates are bad. I'm really not sure why they were thinking watching this miniature develop would bring in the pledges. It's very niche and has elements that can easily turn people off.
Well, the cynical part of me wonders if it isn't because they really don't have anything else to show us at the moment so they're forced to feed us one miniature drip by drip so as to distract us with the 'oooh shiny' part.
According to Rick they really did not have anything to show us other than the concept art you see. He has just now got a loan to begin getting stuff together to show us, I trust in his vision, however, Hansa is kind of proof that they are not taking player feedback seriously. Most player feedback I saw he was leaning toward being a Han Solo/Malcolm Reynolds kind of smaller yet smarter and more cunning than brawny mix, yet he is turning into a Arnold Schwarzenegger/Wyatt Earp mix. I am going to keep my feeder pledge locked in however if they do not get more concept art and gameplay videos + provide proof of player feedback making a difference I am going to pull my pledge.
They need a loan to get a few bits of concept art done?
You'd think they'd have a few hundred quid in the kitty to get some concepts done, that's all that's really needed... if they're having to borrow money to make progress on something as dirt cheap as concepts then that's a bit sad. :(
For £100 I could happily knock out concept sketches for an entire faction in the space of a day. It's just pencil + paper, not rocket science.
Freelance illustrators are not that expensive and can get an insane amount of work done in a single day if given a strong brief.
Surprised they didn't get an illustrator on day 1 as soon as people started asking for more concepts of the minis. We could be looking at a complete rough set of concept art for all the minis in all the factions at this point, for backers to get excited about and discuss.
According to Rick they really did not have anything to show us other than the concept art you see. He has just now got a loan to begin getting stuff together to show us,
Which is kinda odd in itself.
These guys, after all, aren't 18-year-olds starting up in dad's basement. Most of them are in some way involved in professional miniature companies out there. The entire branding - e.g. the videos, logos, graphics, website, etc.. - is all spotless and finished to a high polish. Allegedly, a whole team of seasoned pro's has been working on this for half a year or so (if without pay). And yet, there are no sculpts, while every "give-me-2000-dollar-for-my-niche-mini-indiegogo" ever has no issue coughing up a handful of WIP-sculpts?
agustin wrote: Round buttplates are bad. I'm really not sure why they were thinking watching this miniature develop would bring in the pledges. It's very niche and has elements that can easily turn people off.
Well, the cynical part of me wonders if it isn't because they really don't have anything else to show us at the moment so they're forced to feed us one miniature drip by drip so as to distract us with the 'oooh shiny' part.
According to Rick they really did not have anything to show us other than the concept art you see. He has just now got a loan to begin getting stuff together to show us, I trust in his vision, however, Hansa is kind of proof that they are not taking player feedback seriously. Most player feedback I saw he was leaning toward being a Han Solo/Malcolm Reynolds kind of smaller yet smarter and more cunning than brawny mix, yet he is turning into a Arnold Schwarzenegger/Wyatt Earp mix. I am going to keep my feeder pledge locked in however if they do not get more concept art and gameplay videos + provide proof of player feedback making a difference I am going to pull my pledge.
Isn't he partnered with an established company? I would imagine that if they were so confident in his vision, they would have fronted the money for some concept art/miniatures
As it is, I'm not sure he should get the loan since I'm not sure he would actually be able to fund the project
According to Rick they really did not have anything to show us other than the concept art you see. He has just now got a loan to begin getting stuff together to show us,
Which is kinda odd in itself.
These guys, after all, aren't 18-year-olds starting up in dad's basement. Most of them are in some way involved in professional miniature companies out there. The entire branding - e.g. the videos, logos, graphics, website, etc.. - is all spotless and finished to a high polish. Allegedly, a whole team of seasoned pro's has been working on this for half a year or so (if without pay). And yet, there are no sculpts, while every "give-me-2000-dollar-for-my-niche-mini-indiegogo" ever has no issue coughing up a handful of WIP-sculpts?
This, your earlier comments, and your blog (linked in sig) are all spot-on. If they had spent half of the time and effort put into the website on just a handful of greens, I really think things would be going much better. As it is, I see this project plateauing, quite a distance from the goal. I would like to be proven wrong, since I would love to see a viable 40K alternative (that isn't Privateer Press, which is fine, I just don't like their design sensibility), but I am not going to bet money that it will.
Hopefully this won't be a fatal mistake for Priestley's efforts, but a lesson learned. Perhaps he and his team can come back with a more cohesive and developed (in-progress) product for a proper Kickstarter soon.
scarletsquig wrote: They need a loan to get a few bits of concept art done?
.
The central premise of the KS, and one that people keep missing, is that it is feedback-dependent. Hansa has been designed with feedback concerning what people want to see, at each stage of his sculpting for instance.
That being said, it might have made sense to have had a couple of mock-concept art and miniature greens made up in advance (perhaps 3 or 4 variations on a theme?) which then people could vote on.
I'm seriously considering putting a substantial amount on this. I believe strongly that if this KS succeeds, then it will give the whole industry the kick in the bum that it might well need if it is going to continue to prosper into the future. And, well a lot of my time is spent with the wargaming hobby - I guess I should put my money where my mouth is, so to speak.
The central premise of the KS, and one that people keep missing, is that it is feedback-dependent. Hansa has been designed with feedback concerning what people want to see, at each stage of his sculpting for instance.
No.
People are not missing the central premise of this KS.
People are pointing out that this central premise is setting the KS up for failure.
People are pointing this out, because they generally sympathize with the goals/ambitions of this KS as much as you do and do not want it to fail.
Lol, those butt-plates are funny, lets hope its not done at that end! I love the mustach, I do hope he is bald, but it sounds like they'll be adding hair. I hope they add detail to the base, I love it when they have something to the base, a dead alien head maybe...
I can't hep but compare BGoA to Rivet Wars Kickstarter. I know they are really different games but the Rivet Wars has been taking in 19k a day on average, and the only sculpts seen were the ones in the game play video from the box. The rest of the stretch goals are in cartoony art drawings. BGoA would benefit greatly from some kind of visual goal for some of the factions. If they end up looking different in the end from fan feedback well and good. At least we know there was a vision everyone could share.
Rivet wars was pretty much "done" when before the kick starter launched. As I believe the game play video was up on the second day or so they already had the game pieces, cards and board.. In addition to that the first few stretch goals were more of the same figures added to the pledges. I'm not bashing rivet wars at all since it is on my list to back on kick starter just that the only thing both kick starters have in common is that they run the same time more or less.
If the kick starter fails I hope that Rick tries again maybe with limited factions aim for the book and a few miniatures. With the stretch goals being other forces or more models.
The central premise of the KS, and one that people keep missing, is that it is feedback-dependent. Hansa has been designed with feedback concerning what people want to see, at each stage of his sculpting for instance.
No.
People are not missing the central premise of this KS.
People are pointing out that this central premise is setting the KS up for failure.
People are pointing this out, because they generally sympathize with the goals/ambitions of this KS as much as you do and do not want it to fail.
You say that, but look back over this thread and you will see an awful lot of 'why didn't this KS start with a range of concept drawings and miniatures already completed?' Which is to miss the object of what this project was trying to accomplish.
The benefit of hindsight will show whether this was a good idea or not, or Rick and the other guys should have done more of the development/fan input bits and pieces prior to the kickstarter taking place.
scarletsquig wrote: They need a loan to get a few bits of concept art done?
.
The central premise of the KS, and one that people keep missing, is that it is feedback-dependent. Hansa has been designed with feedback concerning what people want to see, at each stage of his sculpting for instance.
Game design and miniature design by committee are bad ideas, particularly from the ground up. You disenfranchise some people who don't like the direction, and don't think they're being heard, or a vocal minority drive the ship (wargames factory greatcoats, I'm looking at you).
They need more greens and concepts, and more of the rules fleshed out for people to respond to. I feel like they're dropping the ball in that regard.
When I first saw this this thread (and linked website) before the KS went live I was really excited about the idea. I still love the concept and really like the Hansa model, I have about £250 ready to drop on the double feeder set, but the reason I have not and I am sure it is similar for a lot of people is as follows -
I have three kids, not the cheapest of things at the best of times, and run most of my 'little men' purchases as the missus calls them past her. I get the usual complaining and eye rolling every time I go into GW as she knows I will usually buy something. I managed to convince her to let me spend about £250 on SW as I could actually show her the figures, what the boxed game looks like and the concept sketches. basically she could see I was going to get (I think) value for money and a high quality end product.
Now before everyone starts quoting "this is not that kind of KS...etc...", the problem I have is selling this to the missus, she has asked to see the models and at this stage I can show her only one incomplete figure, ok she said "what are the rest going to look like?"....erm...."humans, possibly cat people, possibly something like planet of the apes"...."so you have no idea" was the reply. "Well the collective gaming community has not decided on the exact details yet" argument did not work either.
I mentioned 3D renderings earlier in this thread and was quoted with the usual snipey comments, I did know that this was not how these sculptors work, but at least I would have something to show the missus and therefore gained permission to back this KS. As others have mentioned, some greens, anything would really have helped. For once I think my missus is right (does not happen often), when she said "Would you be happy if I spent £250 on some clothes, that I have not seen, have not been designed or even properly described, but the dressmaker is a great person and I'm sure it will work out in the end".
I REALLY hope this KS will run, and my £250 is still waiting, but please Rick and the rest of the team, give my missus a reason to say yes beyond a great concept and a good reputation. I think this is where a lot of people are balking at, in these hard economic times putting money into something on faith alone is hard.
Could you sell the missus on the rulebook though? That's a pretty reasonably-priced investment, including the figure and would at least be a step on the road to getting this thing out there.
I really hope this project can get funded. I have a lot of interest in the project as it stands but it's obvious that they need to get more eye-candy out there in order to pull in the kind of funding it really needs. That, or they need to reboot the project with redefined goals as has previously been discussed.
In Summary/ TLDR - Beasts of War interview should be up in the near future.
- range of dice used, but most commonly D10's (although interestingly there is one less 'check' roll than might commonly be expected in something like 40k).
- Using 'equal or less' (similar to Infinity) rather than 'at least' for the dice rolls for checks
- Stats are fairly comprehensive, from 1 to 10, the higher the number the better. 5 is average for a normal human or equivalent.
- Important to note that these are WIP for testing purposes at present.
Evening everyone - We've just got back from a great trip down south to see Warren and the chaps at Beasts of War, who were very welcoming and gave us rather a lot of tea and chocolate!
They've very kindly done a rather large interview with us which should be going out quite soon.
Our game rules update today is all about the Dice and Stats, so lets get into it shall we:
DICE AND STATS
Before we can start to work with the initial game development we need to know how the basic dice rolling works, and how the stats of the models affect dice scores and game play. At this stage we do not need to flesh out the detail for dice roll modifiers, or restrictive qualifiers such as movement affecting whether a model can shoot or not. So, here’s the basics to get us started. This just leaves the descriptions of basic weapon stats, actions and reactions and we will have enough to play an outline game – sufficient to work with the overall dynamic and scope.
Types of Dice
D10s are used to make tests against stats, and this includes the basic rolls to hit a target, to resist damage, to undertake reactions to enemy actions, and to check combat status. A number of D10s are required and it is helpful to have a few distinctly coloured dice as this helps greatly with hit allocation from weapons with different strike qualities, for example where a unit shoots plasma carbines and a plasma cannon at the same target.
D4s, D6s, D8s and D12s are also used to generate random values, most commonly for weapons with blast effects. One of each will be enough – or values can be generated using D10s and working down, for example generate 1-8 by re-rolling 9s and 10s. We’ll also be using D3 (half D6 roll) and D5s (half D10 score) and such-like variations – but I’ll assume we are all familiar enough with that kind of thing.
Dice Tests
The D10 dice is also used to make tests against a model’s stat or the stat of an item of equipment or weapon. In most cases these stat values will also be affected by situational and unit status modifiers, but for purposes of explanation we can ignore those for now. The basis stat test works as follows:
To test against a stat value, roll a D10 and if the score is equal to or less than the value you are testing against the test is a success. We sometimes refer to this test as a ‘check’. For example, to make a check against a value of 5 simply roll 5 or less on a D10 for success. In this case a roll of 6 or more is a fail.
Regardless of any modifiers applied to the stat under test, a D10 dice roll of a 10 is always deemed a failure. If the score required is less that 1 then it is still possible to succeed if you roll a 1, in which case roll the dice again and if another 1 is rolled the test is a success anyway. So, to summarise, a roll of a 10 is always a failure regardless, and if you need to roll any number less than 1 to succeed you need a 1 followed by another 1 ( a 1% outside chance).
Another principle that will be applied throughout the rules is a dice roll of a 1 counts as a critical success. This rule doesn't apply if the score required is 1 or lower, in which case it is impossible to generate a critical success result, but so long as you are testing against a value of 2 or greater any roll of a 1 on the D10 is considered a critical success. A critical success affects the results of some tests, and this varies depending on the test that is being made. In the case of shooting it affects how casualties are allocated. Some tests are binary and critical success makes no difference, they either pass or fail, but in general look out for the 1s as they often mean something special.
GAMES VALUES AND STATS
Every model has a set of associated game values representing its own skills and abilities. In the case of most troopers, henchmen, drones and other ‘grunts’ these will be basic values for their species, whilst leaders and heroic individuals are likely to have enhanced values that separate them from their more ordinary fellows.
These values are commonly called ‘stats’ (statistics) and are written in a stat-line together with the description of the model and its designated type. For example, here is the work-in-progress stat-line for a standard human fighter – a Rever or basic Panhuman.
Unit Type Ag Acc Res StrInit Cou Tech Com Sp
Rever Inf 5 5 5 5 5 7 1 2 *
The unit column just lists the model – an ordinary Rever fighter in this case – and the Type is a basic definition for rules purposes – in this case ‘infantry’. Different types have different rules in respect to movement, damage effects, and so on but we are only concerned with the standard fighter types at this stage.
All of the stats are scored out of 10 with 1 being the lowest value possible and 10 the highest for this type. Values lower than 5 are relatively weak and values in excess of 5 are relatively powerful.
Agility (Ag). The Agility stat is a measure of an individual’s ability to traverse terrain, climb, and bounce about in an athletic fashion. It is used mostly for movement tests in demanding situations. It is used by some individuals with special skills for close combat.
Accuracy (Acc). The accuracy stat is a basic measure of how capable the individual is when it comes to handling and shooting a weapon. The higher the value the better shot the individual is. This stat is used for all shooting included ranged shooting, firefights and assaults.
Resist (Res). The resist stat indicates the individual’s ability to withstand a blow, weapon strike or physical trauma – the higher this value the tougher or ‘harder’ the individual is: the more easily the individual can resist damage. This value is affected by armour of various kinds as well as cover.
Strength (Str). This stat is a measure of brute strength. Brute strength is not an important consideration unless it comes down to grappling at close quarters when it is very important indeed! Strength is also important should it come to tasks requiring sheer power; such as lifting a heavy object or forcing open a heavy airlock seal.
Initiative (Init). The initiative stat is a measure of alertness and speed of reactions, and as such it is the key value that we test against when a unit reacts to an enemy’s action. Troops with high values will be more easily able to return enemy fire or go to ground quickly when shot at.
Courage (Cou). Courage is a measure of how cool the individual is under stress, how steady his nerves are, or how brave he is when things get tough. We test against this value when checking Combat Status, which means it affects a unit’s ability to fight in most situations. Courage is one of the most important stats in the whole game – because technology can compensate or augment other stats but there are few (safe) ways to bolster your courage!
Technology (Tech). This value is a measure of an individual’s technical skills – which may be innate or which may result from belonging to an IMTel Shard. This skill is used as a measure and test when it comes to operating some technological devices including some kinds of weapons.
Compute (Com). This stat is a measure of an individual’s facility with logical calculation, and it is far more important for machine intelligences than for living creatures. Although it is occasionally used where a test of pure intelligence is called for, the principle use is for WarDrones and other kinds of sentient machines, where compute is generally used instead of courage.
Special (Sp). This isn’t a stat – the column at the end of the stat-line is a placeholder used as a memory jogger for any special rules than might apply to that particular model.
Comment on Stats
This is a work in progress stat line and it is intended to establish a base level for purposes of game balance and working out variable parameters. It seems to be holding up quite well at the moment in our games, although bear in mind that modifiers do generally tend to take the probabilities down a bit, and all the more so for units that have suffered reduction of their combat status.
Well, at my gaming club last night, I asked the usual 40k crowd and none of them had heard of the kickstarter. Funnily enough, the fantasy guys all knew about it, due to them being fans of Rick. However, it's a bit concerning in general and I can't do much about it either - I can't even convince the guys to visit the clubs website, nevermind start a new game!
Agility (Ag). The Agility stat is a measure of an individual’s ability to traverse terrain, climb, and bounce about in an athletic fashion. It is used mostly for movement tests in demanding situations. It is used by some individuals with special skills for close combat.
Initiative (Init). The initiative stat is a measure of alertness and speed of reactions, and as such it is the key value that we test against when a unit reacts to an enemy’s action. Troops with high values will be more easily able to return enemy fire or go to ground quickly when shot at.
I know they are not exactly the same, but it feels like some overlap/redundancy here for a full wargame-scale miniatures game (as opposed to a RPG or something more Necromunda-style" in scope).
Is there going to be significant amounts of units that pivot on high agility and low initiative (or vice versa)?
Technology (Tech). This value is a measure of an individual’s technical skills – which may be innate or which may result from belonging to an IMTel Shard. This skill is used as a measure and test when it comes to operating some technological devices including some kinds of weapons.
Compute (Com). This stat is a measure of an individual’s facility with logical calculation, and it is far more important for machine intelligences than for living creatures. Although it is occasionally used where a test of pure intelligence is called for, the principle use is for WarDrones and other kinds of sentient machines, where compute is generally used instead of courage.
Same. Seems like 'Compute' could be handled well through Tech (and Courage for Drones).
I think using difference sized dice for different things is a pretty good idea, much more versatile than just using D6, where a single point difference means a 15% change in probability.
D10's are probably easier to use for most things, equation better to percentages.
But there's maybe too many in use: D3,4,5,6,8,10,12 are mentioned, and that might overcomplicate things.
Agility touches more the bodily reaction while initiative touches the mental reaction. Depending on the situation those can be two very different things. And what I know from the game there will be situations where you will need to test the one or the other to achive different things.
Same goes for Tech and Compute. Tech is more for working with the hardware and compute for the software section of technologs. A good mechanic/egineer might not be that good a hacker.
Herzlos wrote: I think using difference sized dice for different things is a pretty good idea, much more versatile than just using D6, where a single point difference means a 15% change in probability.
D10's are probably easier to use for most things, equation better to percentages.
But there's maybe too many in use: D3,4,5,6,8,10,12 are mentioned, and that might overcomplicate things.
Read and you will understand (It´s even in the text posted above):
The Dx are only needed for certain template weapons and special effects and except for the D12 you can substitute them with your D6 and D10 by just re-rolling the numbers going above the dice-value.
And since it is for template weapons normally 1-2 dice of each should suffice if you really need the real McCoy and you will not roll them that often.
Also this is still zeta test phase and dice that are nott needed can be phased out during testing process.
As is often the case.
Agility touches more the bodily reaction while initiative touches the mental reaction. Depending on the situation those can be two very different things. And what I know from the game there will be situations where you will need to test the one or the other to achive different things.
Same goes for Tech and Compute. Tech is more for working with the hardware and compute for the software section of technologs. A good mechanic/egineer might not be that good a hacker.
I know they represent different things.
But for a game (!), it raises the question of how much abstraction is needed (or too much). To go to the extreme other end, a full-fledged roleplaying game would clearly have those (and more, say, breaking down tech even further to different technologies, software-suits, technology-types like military, civilian, etc..).
But is this level of verisimilitude needed for a wargame, or will it bog down gameplay in overcomplication.
One can make the case that - on this scale - an abstraction that simply equates .. say.. agility and initiative into one stat could speed things up. A being that is mentally fast, but lacks the bodily agility to act on it is just as slow as a being with great physical agility, but a slow mind that registers things only in its own time. The odd exception could well be covered by a special rule, etc.. .
I can see why someone would split these skills/stats. I could even see, in a different scenario, splitting them up even further into even more stats/skills.
But for the type of game-play they envision, it strikes me (personally) as redundant.
With all the talk of them asking for a lot up front and not having many stretch goals – I think what we may be seeing is a difference of approach between UK and US attitudes to Kickstarter.
Granted I only have 4 to go on (2 UK and 2 US) but my experience has been that the UK kickstarters have priced themselves at an initial level that will allow them to do everything they wish to do, while US kickstarters tend to price themselves at a level where they can at least release a “minimum required” and then release anything extra as stretch goal. I’m not saying one method is better than the other – just a cultural difference that results in a different approach. I will say, from my not very scientific example of 1 (i.e. me) I prefer the UK approach, it means that I know up front what I would be pledging for and can take a little time to decide what I want and then pledge to that level and “forget” about it (i.e. I don’t have to be watching 2/3 times a day to see what else they will be adding and then making a rush decision in the last hour as to weather my pledge is worth it or not), whilst (again going only on what I see on forums) people in the US prefer the excitement of seeing what next can be unlocked and it’s almost a form of entertainment – obviously on this one I only know how much of something I’ll get, and not what it will actually look like which means I’m not prepared to spend as much as I would if I had seen the miniatures and liked them, but I can make a judge on the cost of each individual miniature and what I know to the skill/style of the sculptors.
So, whilst the £300k may seem like a lot, I actually think that any new wargame is looking for a similar amount, but the US puts their initial “bid” lower and if they don’t unlock stretch goals would then do something like release with only 1 unit for each army – or a few units but only for 1 army, whilst the UK goes “we need this to make enough for everything”. Again, I’m not saying one method is better than the other – this is just what I have seen.
Personally I’m in at the feeder level on this – The gameplay video looks ok, but I’m not sure about the whole “realtime world” thing, if I wanted that I’d play video games, a lot will depend on the implementation. Then again I am presuming that that side is optional. Whilst I have not seen the miniatures yet I have a great respect for the sculptors they have that makes me believe that they will release something I like the look of (in much the same way that I will go see any film with Kevin Spacey in, because I trust him to only be in films I will enjoy)
There is of cause a cynical side of me that says that maybe they actually want the KS to fail, this may sound odd but hear me out. KS is at the moment quite a big thing in the miniature world, a lot of new games are getting launched by it and everyone is talking about the “new KS”. Is there a better way at the moment to get your game talked about? As far as I’m aware you only pay KS money if your project actually gets funded – so if the project isn’t funded you actually just had a bunch of free advertising which, if you can then pull the money to do the project from elsewhere, is not a bad thing at all. Even if the project doesn’t get funded BtGoA has now got a group of people actively using their forum and helping them drive the direction of the game, so if they can get funding elsewhere they will have the best of both worlds. The more rational side of me says that thats silly – but there is a little voice in the back of my head asking the question.
And where would they get that funding with the banks burning through billions of dollars?
@Zweischneid
It might seem complicated, but once you´ve played it it gets second nature quite qickly. I consider 40K stats to be more complicated to read than GoA stats.
You can only mash them together in one stat in 40K cause it is scifantasy, with pure scifi it makes sense and avoids having to introduce later a lot of extra rules like 40k did.
There is of cause a cynical side of me that says that maybe they actually want the KS to fail, this may sound odd but hear me out. KS is at the moment quite a big thing in the miniature world, a lot of new games are getting launched by it and everyone is talking about the “new KS”. Is there a better way at the moment to get your game talked about? As far as I’m aware you only pay KS money if your project actually gets funded – so if the project isn’t funded you actually just had a bunch of free advertising which, if you can then pull the money to do the project from elsewhere, is not a bad thing at all. Even if the project doesn’t get funded BtGoA has now got a group of people actively using their forum and helping them drive the direction of the game, so if they can get funding elsewhere they will have the best of both worlds. The more rational side of me says that thats silly – but there is a little voice in the back of my head asking the question.
This isnt as silly as it sounds, though i doubt very much this is actually going on, but i do wonder why there was so little concept art about to give a better ide for the background of the universe etc. It always makes folks uneasy handing out cash without seeing goods, but if they dont reach the goal, then no money is taken.
Having pledged £190 level i would like to see it work, but we will see.
There is of cause a cynical side of me that says that maybe they actually want the KS to fail, this may sound odd but hear me out. KS is at the moment quite a big thing in the miniature world, a lot of new games are getting launched by it and everyone is talking about the “new KS”. Is there a better way at the moment to get your game talked about? As far as I’m aware you only pay KS money if your project actually gets funded – so if the project isn’t funded you actually just had a bunch of free advertising which, if you can then pull the money to do the project from elsewhere, is not a bad thing at all. Even if the project doesn’t get funded BtGoA has now got a group of people actively using their forum and helping them drive the direction of the game, so if they can get funding elsewhere they will have the best of both worlds. The more rational side of me says that thats silly – but there is a little voice in the back of my head asking the question.
I doubt that.
1) Kickstarter fees aren't that different from banking fees/interests (especially of the UK kind) for the entire year. Much less the demands for equity of angel investors, etc.. .
2) People will be far more invested in playtesting if they have money "in the game" already.
3) The very reputation of KS-failure, especially one tied to the "celebrity-name" of Rick Priestley carries costs too. If you are "the game that failed" (see Ex Illis), it's that much harder to claw your way back. The "Ever wanted to help design and create a new science fiction wargame universe with Rick Priestley? Well now you can." tagline is a one-shot weapon.
didn't Rick say that GoA is also a universe and that he picked the d10 because it could easily be turned to a d100? I bring this up because i remember also saying that he wanted to bring the level of the game from 30-50 miniatures to a handful for a skirmish/rpg setting essentially using the same "stats".
Also seems on par with the amount of stats to remember as most other games so it isn't a big leap of faith to remember a few..
Looks like they're really going to need to get a bit more specific and start showing things as well as perhaps adding more 'value', as they've dropped below a projected success now:
There is of cause a cynical side of me that says that maybe they actually want the KS to fail, this may sound odd but hear me out. KS is at the moment quite a big thing in the miniature world, a lot of new games are getting launched by it and everyone is talking about the “new KS”. Is there a better way at the moment to get your game talked about? As far as I’m aware you only pay KS money if your project actually gets funded – so if the project isn’t funded you actually just had a bunch of free advertising which, if you can then pull the money to do the project from elsewhere, is not a bad thing at all. Even if the project doesn’t get funded BtGoA has now got a group of people actively using their forum and helping them drive the direction of the game, so if they can get funding elsewhere they will have the best of both worlds. The more rational side of me says that thats silly – but there is a little voice in the back of my head asking the question.
I doubt that.
1) Kickstarter fees aren't that different from banking fees/interests (especially of the UK kind) for the entire year. Much less the demands for equity of angel investors, etc.. .
2) People will be far more invested in playtesting if they have money "in the game" already.
3) The very reputation of KS-failure, especially one tied to the "celebrity-name" of Rick Priestley carries costs too. If you are "the game that failed" (see Ex Illis), it's that much harder to claw your way back. The "Ever wanted to help design and create a new science fiction wargame universe with Rick Priestley? Well now you can." tagline is a one-shot weapon.
Whilst I agree with point 1&2 (and actually I don’t really think they want the KS to fail, it’s just an idle question in the back of my head they they “could” want it to fail and are just using it as free advertising) I have to question point 3 – do we really know that a failed kickstarter would put people off the project? If, after the kickstarter they announced on their forums (which now have a reasonably large following to say that the game isn’t out yet)say that they intend to push ahead with the project but only release 2 armies now with other coming in the future due to cost issues, would that really put the people who are there voicing their opinion off the game? Especially when they could be seen as “following the community lead” and release the 2 factions that are most popular from the forum members. I guess what I’m saying is it’s too early in the life of KS (it has only really taken off this year afterall) to know what the true effect of a failed KS is, “Is it better to KS and fail than to have never KS at all?”
Of cause, thats all idle thought, I don’t think for a minute that they actually want the KS to fail.
Where is the money coming from to release the two factions? There are no sketches, no greens, no concept art because of lack of funding. That's what the Kickstarter is for, funding the project.
JudgeShamgar wrote: Where is the money coming from to release the two factions? There are no sketches, no greens, no concept art because of lack of funding. That's what the Kickstarter is for, funding the project.
Its really not hard to get a few sketches done, and a green or two.
Herzlos wrote: I think using difference sized dice for different things is a pretty good idea, much more versatile than just using D6, where a single point difference means a 15% change in probability.
D10's are probably easier to use for most things, equation better to percentages.
But there's maybe too many in use: D3,4,5,6,8,10,12 are mentioned, and that might overcomplicate things.
Oh, I disagree... if it's anything like Stargrunt's sliding dice scale, that's a brilliant mechanic. Doesn't really slow anything down... you wind up eliminating multiple dice rolls and dice checks and such in favor of one or two sliding scale dice scale rolls.
JudgeShamgar wrote: Where is the money coming from to release the two factions? There are no sketches, no greens, no concept art because of lack of funding. That's what the Kickstarter is for, funding the project.
/shrug
Where did Mantic Games start to get funding for making concepts (and actual miniatures) for their Warpath sci-fi game, as well as community-beta-testing their Warpath rules for the better part of 2 years now? (Warpath 2.0 Beta Test Feedback Forum)
Where did "no-prior-connection-to-any-major-game-company" guys like Thon the Game get their funds? (as well as also running an extensive pre-Kickstarter beta development on their rules).
Where did (also ex-GW) Mike McVey start building his alternative sci-fi wargaming universe (wisely going from the "small" game to the increasingly larger one, rather than jumping straight into the deep end)?
Where did British companies for sci-fi miniature games actually get funds to start up without Kickstarter at all, like Drop Zone Commander. Headed by a guy not even half the age of Rick Priestely I might add.
And if you are truly so desperate for half a million dollars of Kickstarter, why didn't they use a CMON-style formula that we all know works!!!??
Seriously, isn't that the best thing about Kickstarter from an entrepreneurs perspective? It's fairly formulaic. E.g. it's a rote-system that is (relatively) easy to replicate for getting the money. It's not rocket-science! Why don't you do it than?
New company with no rules yet, but some nicely painted models, and some photoshopped pictures. Interested? Sure. They look good and unique for a futuristic solder kind of unit.
BGoA has none of this. They have admitted they haven't been paid for the work they have done on the project. I can only guess the lack of images and sculpts are from lack of funding.
And yeah...Why don't they do it? The formula is out there for everyone to see. Why can't they?
And you still can end belly up when you do have a lot of PR. Just take DZC, in Germany the game is more or less allready dead. And I doubt that without huge changes regarding their prices they will get a second chance over here.
GoA-KS does need to improve in some areas, there is no discussing it. But the project is much more sound than some of the really hyped games from 2012 which never were able to really get a grip after the hype.
GoA-KS does need to improve in some areas, there is no discussing it. But the project is much more sound than some of the really hyped games from 2012 which never were able to really get a grip after the hype.
Duncan
You're a truly steadfast fan of GoA. I admire that. GoA needs people like you and it needs more people like you.
More importantly however, GoA needs to get in over GBP 5.000,- every single day for the next 43 days to "just scrape in" a success.
- GBP 5.000,- a day!
- Every day!
- For 43 Days!
- Absolute Minimum!
Currently it is making a few hundred a day at best. And every "sub-par" day, the benchmark rises
Therefore, it doesn't need to "improve in some areas". It needs an all-out, no-holds, no-mercy turnaround that burns all bridges to the last two weeks. And it needs it now.
Yes it has dropped pretty badly recently - I usually enjoy refreshing the KS page for this kind of thing (I'm really sad like that ) but its made depressing viewing the past few days.
I am actually very close to pulling my pledge. As much faith as I had in Rick, I just do not see this game heading in a direction that really grabs me.
True race concept arts and more gameplay videos can easily change this but at the rate information and content updates is coming out is just too slow.
I think Rick just needs to talk to mark at dreamforge games, Rick help make a killer system for the amazing minis mark already has, and mark already has the background fleshed out. This tag team would kill GW overnight.
Starting with that 'stache. DAMN. It's cool. The Hansa figure is looking great and it was a nifty idea to get lots of feedback to guide the dude's development.
But with regards to the whole KS project as funding an idea that would then get fleshed out... I hope this will be a learning experience for the B'GoA team. KS projects that succeed are full of eye candy, and tangible stretch goals.
The example that comes to mind is the recent Kingdom Death boardgame that, even prior to posting *any* gameplay information broke into the top 10 boardgames funded. I can only assume that this was based on the quality of the miniatures, of which there were lots of examples, art, and computer mock-ups. The KD guy had been touting his figure line for a few years, and had a (modest perhaps?) reputation for some oddball but really cool figures - but importantly he had product to show off. And when he posted gameplay videos for IMHO a rather bland game, the KS project blew up, more than *doubling* the next highest boardgame's take! The Reaper Bones KS is another good example: they weren't even selling rules (though you eventually got a set through the nutty stretch goals), just minis! The Reaper KS became such a crazy good deal, that it became foolish to not buy in and the snowball effect was nutty!
So Rick et al.: If this doesn't work out, do come back. But come back armed with lots of eye candy. Eye candy goes a long way to selling your product. If you get us a great ruleset along with the nifty miniatures, all the better!
I ended up pledging for 65 GBP, and will be disappointed if it doesn't make its goals, but really do hope the team processes our feedback and comes back with some figures to show off. It's often the miniatures that sell the game, not the rules (yes, lousy rules are a turn off, but I have enough faith in the team to know they likely won't put out lousy rules)
I don't think there's any need to pull pledges. Might as well stay in and get updates right to the end.
But yeah, it pains me to see this flat-lining. I think they overestimated the pull of their star power. I can't deny that they had really very little tangible to show people. And it's not as if there's exactly a dearth of decent games right now...
Automatically Appended Next Post: To echo pancakeonions... you need to appeal to a large audience to really succeed.
Cool models and visuals: Appealing to 90% of your audience.
Background Fluff: Appealing to 30% of your audience.
Game Mechanics: Appealing to 10% of your audience.
And they're spending time and effort marketing the game mechanics. Which is only to be expected from a group of designers, I guess, but still - that's not what's going to grab the mass market appeal they need for that kind of money.
pancakeonions wrote: So Rick et al.: If this doesn't work out, do come back. But come back armed with lots of eye candy. Eye candy goes a long way to selling your product. If you get us a great ruleset along with the nifty miniatures, all the better!
100% agree with this. While great world/rules/etc. will make people stay, first you need eye candy to get people there. I'm an illustrator for comics, and always see the gut reaction of the visuals, followed by people eventually getting in to the story, if they stay.
I think the issue is its a kickstarter that wants to shape a system and a world, while people do not want to shape a system and a wall, but see nice eye candy.
I am assuming if and when concept art and maybe greens appear it may get a big rush of backers.
PsychoticStorm wrote: I think the issue is its a kickstarter that wants to shape a system and a world, while people do not want to shape a system and a wall, but see nice eye candy.
I am assuming if and when concept art and maybe greens appear it may get a big rush of backers.
Frankly, it goes beyond "eye-candy" vs. "help-shape-the-system" (which is denigrating the successful past Kickstarter in ways they don't deserve).
There are, I believe, intrinsic limits to a full-blown "grass-roots-build-system".
Kickstarters like Kingdom Death took off not only because of the eye-candy (though I am sure it helped). Kingdom Death took off because it genuinely offered a highly unique, compelling vision of a world, a miniature line and a game with a strong internal coherency that "people-didn't-even-know-they-wanted", combined with a cooperative monster-slaying game-idea that, likewise, was (and is) fresh and has no current equivalent.
Seriously, just as a test. Go and watch the first two minutes of the Kingdom Death Kickstarter video. Than watch the first two minutes of the GoA Kickstarter video. Than tell me again who is selling "hot air without depth".
“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”
- Henry Ford
The same goes for most other successful KS. If you had made a poll early last year, would you have thought there'd be a million dollars in a skirmish game with Anime/Soda-Pop aesthetics? That a cutsy-WWII-game like Rivet Wars could take off like that?
There is coherency of vision, spleen and love for the "off-the-beaten-tracks" in all of those that you will never, ever be able to recreate in a grass-root-driven-campaign.
That is why, IMO, a fundamental flaw in the very idea of trying to grow it all, conceptually, from the crowd. The result will inevitably be less divisive than things like Relic Knights or Kingdom Death. But it will also be less compelling.
Not necessarily "the lowest common denominator", but still prone to having "outside-the-box" ideas being shot down by a "hating" minority (and frankly, 90% of the talk on the GoA forums is about what they do NOT want, rather than what they want, and a lot of it feels more like "fixing 40K", not like "let's create something truly new").
GoA doesn't need just "eye-candy". It needs an aesthetic core of design and vision, from which people may or may not fork off some community/fan-driven elements that build on the central design.
Zweischneid wrote: GoA doesn't need just "eye-candy". It needs an aesthetic core of design and vision, from which people may or may not fork off some community/fan-driven elements that build on the central design.
I agree with your sentiment, but to clarify: I do very strongly think the kickstarter project needs primarily "eye candy." I believe it would be well served to put this candy on prominent display. Us rules-nerds could dig a bit, and learn more about the game mechanics.
I have faith that Rick and his team have good vision and will create a strong design, but to get the true crowd in for this crowd-funded deal, you need the visual appeal that Kingdom Death provided. KD was unique and very interesting (though ultimately the pin-up female models that probably drew in many backers were what kept me away, I think I was in the minority and didn't back that KS project because of the silly girls! That and the annoying scale choice that makes those miniatures useless for the other games I play).
Draw us in with lots of really creative and interesting miniatures. We'll stay for the ruleset. That's what got KD two million bucks (and I'm not really even sure about the ruleset part...!)
Edit: and I reckon it's worth noting that many (most?) KS projects go through their doldrums early on and/or somewhere along the middle. Who knows? Maybe this one has yet to explode???
PsychoticStorm wrote: I think the issue is its a kickstarter that wants to shape a system and a world, while people do not want to shape a system and a wall, but see nice eye candy.
I quite enjoy talking about worldbuilding possibilities, and used to do it quite a bit on the Defiance Games forum. But that does not mean I'm willing to buy their product before I know what the peanut gallery settled on. Hell, even when I did know and I bit the bullet and bought Sedition Wars, it still sounds like they fethed it up and didn't bother to check if the basic infantry sculpt actually fit together.
Most recent update mentions showing off a buncha greens next week including the Wardrones. So perhaps everyone asking for more mini info will get it soon!
It's a setting with prevalent genetic engineering. You do the math.
And on that point, I find it far more believable that we'd have a bunch of Greek gods and goddesses running around than furries (Pan) and androgynies (NuHu).
To be honest: KD got most if its pledgers because of the eye candy. I can´t see the game itself to be more than something bolted onto the KS as an afterthought.
The monsters and pinups have an eye candy angle, but (in my opinion) there's no question that most of the player pieces were designed specifically as game pieces. They have relatively basic poses and a lot of equipment options: that reads as important as functional, not as a display piece.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: To be honest: KD got most if its pledgers because of the eye candy. I can´t see the game itself to be more than something bolted onto the KS as an afterthought.
You'd be wrong. Kingdom Death launched one of the most innovative and uniquely new board/miniature game concept in a decade at least. That's why it got featured on things like Wired.com, etc.. .
His pin-ups are nice, but nekkid girl-miniatures are plentify. That's not what made it explode.
As said, I admire your tenacity in sticking with GoA. But your argument isn't strengthened by trying to denigrate other people's efforts.
And Rick Priestley wasn't much older than Adam Poots is now when he made his first big splash.
Folks, when writing "game itself" I ment the rules.
And sorry, the information we got about the rules do not have anything innovative. Sure, the adding-on thing on the minis is nice (has been done before, but with small success, was a robo game half a decade earlier), but does not really have anything to do with the rules. That´s still eye candy.
And I have no intention to mock his work, but I am too long in the business to see in a standard level rule set more than an standard-level rule set. Take Tentacle Bento. The rules are nothing to write home about and only the eye candy saves the game somehow. With KD the rules we got until now are rather pedestrian. The minis are technically great, though they are not to my taste.
And I can assure you in two years time not many will play the KD rules. That´s not me, judging it, that´s the market that decides. And after a few years you get a feeling for which ideas will survive in the long ran and which don´t. And I have seen similar ideas like the KD rules, but they mostly tanked. From my point of view KD has reached most of its audience with the KS, there will not be that many more after the KS to draw into the game. It´s too niché for that. You can sell Sedition Wars, Antares or 40K in a toy store but not KD. And that´s where the money lies.
Back to topic:
Evening all - Had an interesting day today, planning out the rest of the month and kicking off a number of new sculpts, including the WarDrones!!! These are a critical component to our Kickstarter and more importantly to your army's so we've taken a number of steps to ensure they're brilliant - more on those puppies next week! Thank you all for your feedback on the forums, it was very helpful.
Kev's been busy with Hansa and many of you mentioned that you liked him bald, so we're toying with that idea and that tash is definitely growing on us... and him!
spiralingcadaver wrote: The monsters and pinups have an eye candy angle, but (in my opinion) there's no question that most of the player pieces were designed specifically as game pieces. They have relatively basic poses and a lot of equipment options: that reads as important as functional, not as a display piece.
Yes, but it just so happens that many think of them as some of the most beautiful, imaginative and finely crafted miniatures to have ever been made. Is that too much of an exaggeration? They certainly have to be the large part of why that KS made so much money.
I guess there can be many reasons why someone can pledge to support a KS. At present, the evidence seems to show that greens/sculpts are more of a pull than reputation of the game creator, a gaming system or innovative method of play (with the developer - gamer interaction) - or all of these factors combined of course.
Of course, if GoA can show a couple of awesome looking sculpts over the next few weeks, then it might get the benefit of backing from both groups!
Speaking of which think Hansa is looking great! With a couple of little accessories that Kevin is talking about (perhaps some kind of 'Vegeta' style eye piece making him over 9000) might make him look even better perhaps?
Theophony wrote: I think Rick just needs to talk to mark at dreamforge games, Rick help make a killer system for the amazing minis mark already has, and mark already has the background fleshed out. This tag team would kill GW overnight.
This may be the best idea I've read on Dakka in a while. Mark's concepts and actual finished pieces (arriving soon!!!) are really top-notch, but the game development hasn't caught up yet (and who could blame him, pushed to the limit already creating great minis). And this Gates of Antares project seems completely sunk into the game development and the minis haven't caught up yet.
And sorry, the information we got about the rules do not have anything innovative. Sure, the adding-on thing on the minis is nice (has been done before, but with small success, was a robo game half a decade earlier), but does not really have anything to do with the rules. That´s still eye candy.
If the creators of this Kickstarter think like that, they deserve to fail.
You act as if pledging for miniatures was some dirty business one had to tolerate to sell rules. Well, nuts to that. The rules are just the grognard candy. The models are what sell these games. Just ask Sedition Wars, Dreadball, KDM, ...you know, Kickstarters that were actually successful.
Not necessarily "the lowest common denominator", but still prone to having "outside-the-box" ideas being shot down by a "hating" minority (and frankly, 90% of the talk on the GoA forums is about what they do NOT want, rather than what they want, and a lot of it feels more like "fixing 40K", not like "let's create something truly new").
GoA doesn't need just "eye-candy". It needs an aesthetic core of design and vision, from which people may or may not fork off some community/fan-driven elements that build on the central design.
Sure and that is why several companies went under. Nice minis sell a certain amount but the group that buys a game only for its minis is rather small but very vocal. It is the whole package that sells the game. And if you don´t have good rules going with the nice minis you will land in the artist/display niché with your minis. Nothing wrong when you are specialised on such things, but very bad if you design a game.
Oh, and if you mention SW, the minis are really good, but still quite some people are thinking they are crap. I know they are wrong and you do probably, too. But it shows how fickle the mini-lover group can be, much more fickle than the group that goes for the whole package. In the worst case it can even turn into outright hatred as we can see on the Rivet Wars forum. Minis invole a lot of taste, rules less so, they can be much easier proven to be good or bad and you have less problems with the rule crowd because of this.
Oh, and if you mention SW, the minis are really good, but still quite some people are thinking they are crap. I know they are wrong and you do probably, too. But it shows how fickle the mini-lover group can be, much more fickle than the group that goes for the whole package. In the worst case it can even turn into outright hatred as we can see on the Rivet Wars forum. Minis invole a lot of taste, rules less so, they can be much easier proven to be good or bad and you have less problems with the rule crowd because of this.
Perhaps there are people who complain about the minis (as there are a lot of people who complain about GW minis.. endlessly).
A lot of people are also very happy with them and Mike McVey is nearly 1 Million Dollar+ into building his version of an "alternative sci-fi wargaming" universe. The next expansion 'Arms of Sorrow' is on its way, giving yet more depth to the factions. Maybe another expansion or a smaller skirmish game set in the Sedition Wars universe. And perhaps in a year or two a massive Kickstarter for the "full" Sedition Wars war-game, with all the existing fan-base and community already on board (or even a "kickstarter-free" release.. gasp!).
Seems a lot smarter to build your "not-40K" from the smaller "Space-Hulk/Necromunda" equivalents (or Blood-Bowl-equivalent in the case of the upcoming Warpath) leading up to the "big plunge", instead of starting straight from the deep end (while fantasizing about smaller future spin-off and/or roleplaying games).
If I had to bet on who has the better chances to build a "sustainable", long-term gaming-IP there (which you keep saying is GoA's main advantage), it wouldn't be GoA from where I am looking at it.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: You forget that SW already had a company that was churning out minis for the collectors for quite some time.
Which sounds smart. You make it sound as if actually being prepared for a Kickstarter would in itself disqualify the Kickstarter. Kingdom Death's Adam Poots prepared three years for his Kickstarter, founding a company to sell boutique miniatures to get there. Three years!
Also, Rick Priestley had/has a business writing rules for various games (Fanticide, Bolt Action, etc..) before going Kickstarter.
JudgeShamgar wrote: Where is the money coming from to release the two factions? There are no sketches, no greens, no concept art because of lack of funding. That's what the Kickstarter is for, funding the project.
As much as I would love to see this succeed, for something like this they need to have invested in themselves a lot more. I'm pretty sure that the names involved here have more money banked than I do, and earn more than I do. I just bought a new fridge and dishwasher. It involved putting a bit of money aside from a couple of paydays and then buying the products. They should have put some money aside and paid for a half-dozen greens and a dozen pieces of concept art. You'd think that if there was anyone in the industry that could call in a few favours it would be Priestly and Stallard. They've over-relied on "...and YOU."
I think Mantic's KOW-style "here are some concept drawings for the Celestians - let us know what you like or dislike" is a better way to get player feedback. (Which they also used for some of the Dreadball stuff). Presenting some choices with a solid artistic direction to them rather than throwing it wide open. The result of that has been a moustachioed muscleman in a skintight bodysuit with buttplates while others complain that he's not the Mal Solo character they hoped for... Oh, and Mr Buttplates is the only thing they have to show so far. And even he's only a WIP..
I guess there can be many reasons why someone can pledge to support a KS. At present, the evidence seems to show that greens/sculpts are more of a pull than reputation of the game creator, a gaming system or innovative method of play (with the developer - gamer interaction) - or all of these factors combined of course.
If it was just for a rulebook by Rick Priestly with a new gaming system and an innovative method of play - and they were asking for $50k (dollars, not quid) to get it published then they would have had it in three days without a problem.
They're asking for and promising a whole lot more, with very little to show for the rest of it. And therein lies the issues that this is having.
It is COLD! not sure how everyone else is feeling but its rather cold here in Nottingham at the moment!
Anyway, Hansa is almost finished!.
One of the big things that wasn't even an idea when we started Hansa was his current baldness. Kev always does the hair last as he holds the figure at the top when he's sculpting, but as we were developing him lots of you said that you really like him bald and to be honest, so did we, so we've decided to keep him like that. You guys have already had a big impact in many areas of development, from the easy "we need more greens and artwork" (which we're working on!) to Hansa's baldness, the action turn name and a whole bunch of other tweaks we've made listening to your comments and feedback. Though we may not spend much time replying on the forums, we do read them avidly every second we get the chance to and you will see that start to shape the game as we develop it over the next number of months. Thank you all for this, it's brilliant to be making this with you and long may it continue!
I like the cabling. His eyepatch looks like a nightmare to paint though.
I'm hoping that when they get those extra greens up and running, people will be willing to give it another look. I know that my local gaming group just are not interested: no models, no rules. They've started rectifying the latter, but not the former just yet.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: It is COLD! not sure how everyone else is feeling but its rather cold here in Nottingham at the moment!
Anyway, Hansa is almost finished!.
One of the big things that wasn't even an idea when we started Hansa was his current baldness. Kev always does the hair last as he holds the figure at the top when he's sculpting, but as we were developing him lots of you said that you really like him bald and to be honest, so did we, so we've decided to keep him like that. You guys have already had a big impact in many areas of development, from the easy "we need more greens and artwork" (which we're working on!) to Hansa's baldness, the action turn name and a whole bunch of other tweaks we've made listening to your comments and feedback. Though we may not spend much time replying on the forums, we do read them avidly every second we get the chance to and you will see that start to shape the game as we develop it over the next number of months. Thank you all for this, it's brilliant to be making this with you and long may it continue!
Congratulations to everyone that's backed this project with a desire to help shape the direction of the univierse. Way to go, you guys have helped name a mechanic. It's clear your all full time developers now.
I think part of the apathy towards it will change in the next week or so, once we get more green progress, specifically the wardrones etc, this KS is a long one, and we arent into the usual 30 days of most of them yet.
If by the 2nd week in feb, more greens have appeared and art, with more rule development vids, and still no one is pledging in a greater frequency i will worry, but from what i have seen with Hansa over the last few days i know the design and talent is there, its just a case of seeing it now.
Hansa's background is that he's a Rever, a technological throwback. He's biologically immune to the nanotech that infuses the more advanced cultures, hence needing physical cabling to connect him to his smartgun. He's basically a primitive. This has pros and cons - he can't access the IMTel networks with a thought, like more 'modern' panhumans or nuhus, but equally he's not vulnerable to all the insidious nanotech electronic warfare attacks than can affect more advanced people.
pgmason wrote: hence needing physical cabling to connect him to his smartgun.
And to his but armour as well! [sorry, couldn't resist]
pgmason wrote: Hansa's background is that he's a Rever, a technological throwback. He's biologically immune to the nanotech that infuses the more advanced cultures, hence needing physical cabling to connect him to his smartgun. He's basically a primitive. This has pros and cons - he can't access the IMTel networks with a thought, like more 'modern' panhumans or nuhus, but equally he's not vulnerable to all the insidious nanotech electronic warfare attacks than can affect more advanced people.
Thanks to the reply, that explains it perfectly then.
Well, glad to see the whole "designed by the community" mechanic in action already, namely the part where they ignore all of the forum suggestions and do what they want. The fans asked for a Han Solo/Mal Reynolds type of character, who gets by on wit rather than combat skill, which sounds awesome and which I might have actually ponied up some cash for. Instead, we got a bodybuilder with a porn 'stache and a BFG. Count me out.
Edit: not saying that it's a bad model (technically), it just isn't to my taste, and not what the official forum asked for. I'd be really interested in seeing the brief that was sent to Kev.
Guildsman wrote: Well, glad to see the whole "designed by the community" mechanic in action already, namely the part where they ignore all of the forum suggestions and do what they want. The fans asked for a Han Solo/Mal Reynolds type of character, who gets by on wit rather than combat skill, which sounds awesome and which I might have actually ponied up some cash for. Instead, we got a bodybuilder with a porn 'stache and a BFG. Count me out.
Edit: not saying that it's a bad model (technically), it just isn't to my taste, and not what the official forum asked for. I'd be really interested in seeing the brief that was sent to Kev.
Got a link to that discussion? Or is it on the KS page?
Guildsman wrote: Well, glad to see the whole "designed by the community" mechanic in action already, namely the part where they ignore all of the forum suggestions and do what they want. The fans asked for a Han Solo/Mal Reynolds type of character, who gets by on wit rather than combat skill, which sounds awesome and which I might have actually ponied up some cash for. Instead, we got a bodybuilder with a porn 'stache and a BFG. Count me out.
Edit: not saying that it's a bad model (technically), it just isn't to my taste, and not what the official forum asked for. I'd be really interested in seeing the brief that was sent to Kev.
Actually that's not completely true, there was a fair amount of opposition to the 'rogue in space' and requests for more of a hard sci-fi look IIRC
Well, glad to see the whole "designed by the community" mechanic in action already, namely the part where they ignore all of the forum suggestions and do what they want. The fans asked for a Han Solo/Mal Reynolds type of character, who gets by on wit rather than combat skill, which sounds awesome and which I might have actually ponied up some cash for. Instead, we got a bodybuilder with a porn 'stache and a BFG. Count me out.
Didn´t we get the exact same comment a few pages back by another user?
And no, that is what in the end the majority wanted. Hence he is now bald and not got hair, etc.
Very interesting concept. A bit too 'out there' of a name I think, that fits more with a book.
But this 'community designed' element is at least an interesting experiment. Hoping to see it take off, even if it naturally can't satisfy everyone. But there has to be SOME central design cohesion to be maintained, which makes it complex as hell.
Well, glad to see the whole "designed by the community" mechanic in action already, namely the part where they ignore all of the forum suggestions and do what they want. The fans asked for a Han Solo/Mal Reynolds type of character, who gets by on wit rather than combat skill, which sounds awesome and which I might have actually ponied up some cash for. Instead, we got a bodybuilder with a porn 'stache and a BFG. Count me out.
Didn´t we get the exact same comment a few pages back by another user?
And no, that is what in the end the majority wanted. Hence he is now bald and not got hair, etc.
X2
Granted he is more muscular than "I" expected, but that isn't a porn stache. It's a style used by quite a few badasses..which just so happened to be on the list of requests in that same thread.
fullheadofhair wrote: Nice to see good trigger discipline on a model! While I likte the model overall the butt armor is really ridiculous.
Sure and that is why several companies went under. Nice minis sell a certain amount but the group that buys a game only for its minis is rather small but very vocal. It is the whole package that sells the game. And if you don´t have good rules going with the nice minis you will land in the artist/display niché with your minis. Nothing wrong when you are specialised on such things, but very bad if you design a game.
The whole package might sell a game, but my wife and I, my brother, and many of my friends do not buy games. We buy models. If we want to play a game with them, there are already more than enough rule sets. Heck, we use them for Monopoly. There just happens to be a nontrivial demographic interested in buying models without rules necessarily being attached. I disagree with you about the size of this demographic. I think it's much larger than you believe.
Still, I hope the people who want a complete package are enough to make this KS a success. I really would like to see another large scale SF game with fluff based as much on modern SF as 40k was based on Dune.
Oh, and if you mention SW, the minis are really good, but still quite some people are thinking they are crap. I know they are wrong and you do probably, too. But it shows how fickle the mini-lover group can be, much more fickle than the group that goes for the whole package. In the worst case it can even turn into outright hatred as we can see on the Rivet Wars forum. Minis invole a lot of taste, rules less so, they can be much easier proven to be good or bad and you have less problems with the rule crowd because of this.
On the other hand, literally dozens or hundreds of people bought SW to use the models in other games, such as 40k.
Guildsman wrote: Well, glad to see the whole "designed by the community" mechanic in action already, namely the part where they ignore all of the forum suggestions and do what they want. The fans asked for a Han Solo/Mal Reynolds type of character, who gets by on wit rather than combat skill, which sounds awesome and which I might have actually ponied up some cash for. Instead, we got a bodybuilder with a porn 'stache and a BFG. Count me out.
Edit: not saying that it's a bad model (technically), it just isn't to my taste, and not what the official forum asked for. I'd be really interested in seeing the brief that was sent to Kev.
Got a link to that discussion? Or is it on the KS page?
The Mal Reynolds suggestion was an early suggestion and one of many. One early suggestion that did get picked up was a tech gauntlet interface. Another suggestion from the thread was the "wired" systems necessary due to not being compatible with the nano-tech.
I think you'd be hard-pressed to find any real consensus in that thread - there was certainly no consensus on having a Mal Reynolds character (unless you stopped reading in the middle of page 1). There was MUCH bigger interest in having Hansa resemble Rick Priestley, and somewhere among all the ideas being bounced around, Kev White (Hasslefriesian) posts in there (page 9) and I think you can see that he's been hit by inspiration.
If you just look at the head of Hansa, I think it could be considered a likeness of Rick.
Guildsman sounds like he is more disappointed because the miniature didn't turn out how HE wanted.
I think this is probably one of the main difficulties/issues with "...and YOU." in that people will latch onto one ot two popular ideas, and then when you have a couple of popular, competing ideas, the group that doesn't get chosen feel personally slighted and becomes disenchanted and disengaged.
I reviewed the kickstarter and so far, I don't know, I'm skeptical. The talent team they have is great and the decimal mechanics are a plus, but going by the video, I'm far from sold. I already have Infinity, Mantic's stuff *and* the stuff from Urban Mammoth and Defiance Games. why would I need another sci-fi game?
Also, what *is* Beyond the Gates of Anatres? Is it realistic sci-fi like the Alien universe? Maybe more action like Riddick or The Fifth Element? Mixed in with some ape-humans and cat-humans, so maybe it's like Avatar or the cantina scene in Star Wars. But we know it's not fantasy sci-fi like Warhammer 40,000. But I already have Infinity. Or maybe it's like that one wargame which was on the market for like two second with the ape-like simians in the futuristic Tau-like armor?
Going by the figures it looks like hard sci-fi like Infinity or Alien or Avatar, with just a few alien races mixed in. I'd prefer if it was modular, like a sister ruleset to d20 Modern, or d20 Future. I like the separate heads that Hasslefree and Heresy do.
"Every backer that selects the ‘Inflationary Epoch(£25)’ tier and above receives a the Exclusive Kickstarter Hansa Nairoba model."
Er... so what does this awesome LE figure look like? It's like, "Well, Chef, where's this amazing thing you were going to show us??"
The green they *do* have looks great, but it's just one figure and I've seen a lot of stuff that looks great over at Hasslefree, Heresy, and Defiance games.
I also didn't see a lot of work-in-progress stuff, even sketches or work-in-progress art. It's a lot to ask to buy into a new game system sight-unseen. Granted the talent they have is great, but it's a lot to ask.
Scale? Looks like 28mm, right? Oh no, it's 32mm scale. Well, um, hope it's a smaller 32mm scale, and not huge like Privateer Press' stuff...
If they don't have custom force/figure creation system like Vor: the Maelstrom I'm out.
If they were really smart, they'd have a "plague" faction which are just modern-day zombies. Or maybe an "alien" faction, like xenomorphs or grendelspawn or the smaller Abberants from Trinity: Battleground. Everybody loves generic zombies and aliens. You could raise money for a plastic sprue of that, no problem. I know I'd love 28mm zombie figures that are on par with the Zombie Vixens box set, and those Heroclix xenomorph Aliens are getting hard as hell to find.
Going by the gameplay video, I'm not really sure I like the action system,or the colored markers, which are too "kindergarten" for my taste. I also don't like rolling "low" it feels more natural to want to roll high. I do however, like the "everything is on overwatch" feel to the game.
I like the fact that it's percentile-based, I liked Trinity: Battleground, which ran on d10s. I found it hilarious why Rick Priestley goes on and on about the superiority of d10, when at Games Workshop they were telling us for years that D^s were fine.
As for figures, what do they look like? All the talk of Rever Mercenaries, NuHu, CoCom Troopers, Drones, Algoryn Troopers, Boramites and Echo and the Bunnymen means nothing if I haven't seen the figures. I don't remember Infinity surprising us like this. Defiance Games, for all their flaws, provided tons of images of what they did have, during development.
The chaos mutant guy and the green of the mutant with the claws and the giant spike on his head do look good though. The big walker looks great, although I doubt they will actually be able to pull it off.
Hansa is my exclusive pre-release figure. Sounds great - so what does he look like? Oh goody, and link to a fourm where they *still* don't have an idea. Or an image. Just a ton of waffling about what he looks like. Er... this design by committee gak is getting old. Why not just pony up the cash for the backers to sculpt two or three really stellar figures, and then let the fans pick? I know *I'd* want to see what my pre-release stuff looks like before plonking down my heard-earned money.
Images of the starter box are also lacking images. Wonderful. None of the stuff 70 pounds and above look worth it. The 125 pound Feeder looks okay though, I guess it doubles up what you get. Hope you're really into this game, because at this point, you're buying sight unseen on all of it.\
Apparently I can tack on extra drones with my pledge, but since I have no idea what they are what they do, or what they even look like, it's a no-go for me.
All in all, I didn't really see anything here that grabbed me.
What really would have put my mind at ease was images of the figures and something I found in the designer's notes for Starship Troopers, where Andy Chambers basically said, "This is the game Warhammer 40,000 could have been." Starship Troopers was very innovative, and very good, and was only killed by Mongoose Publishing ham-handed handling of the game. But I digress. I was waiting for them to say something like, "Every innovative idea we couldn't include in Warhammer 40,000 made it into this game" or "every *really* good idea we ever had while working at GW, we secretly put it on the back burner, and that's this game."
chris_valera wrote: I
"Every backer that selects the ‘Inflationary Epoch(£25)’ tier and above receives a the Exclusive Kickstarter Hansa Nairoba model."
Er... so what does this awesome LE figure look like? It's like, "Well, Chef, where's this amazing thing you were going to show us??"
The green they *do* have looks great, but it's just one figure and I've seen a lot of stuff that looks great over at Hasslefree, Heresy, and Defiance games.
That green IS Hansa.
chris_valera wrote: I
Hansa is my exclusive pre-release figure. Sounds great - so what does he look like? Oh goody, and link to a fourm where they *still* don't have an idea. Or an image. Just a ton of waffling about what he looks like. Er... this design by committee gak is getting old. Why not just pony up the cash for the backers to sculpt two or three really stellar figures, and then let the fans pick? I know *I'd* want to see what my pre-release stuff looks like before plonking down my heard-earned money.
Well, the front page of the kickstarter was updated with Hansa's latest update, so I guess you haven't actually looked at the page for some time. If you're that opposed to the whole project, it's probably not for you, but if you ARE interested, AND you like the figure (which you sort of said you did) then maybe the £25 pledge would be the right spot for you - that way you get to help bring this project to life, you get the rules (which are hopefully going to be good) and you get a nice figure (that IS good).
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scipio.au wrote: I think this is probably one of the main difficulties/issues with "...and YOU." in that people will latch onto one ot two popular ideas, and then when you have a couple of popular, competing ideas, the group that doesn't get chosen feel personally slighted and becomes disenchanted and disengaged.
Yeah, I think there's been a lot of discussion on that in this thread, but my personal opinion is that "design by committee" can fail hard when some small minority shouts louder than the others to get their way - or storms off in a huff when they don't.
The nice thing about the Hansa feedback thread (in my opinion) is not that one group of backers or another got to "design" Hansa; it's rather that every voice in that thread took part in a brainstorming session that produced ideas. Some of these ideas were discarded, while others made it in. Even the ones that were ultimately discarded served a purpose, and in the end Kev was inspired enough to make the figure he did. That's a win in my book. It's too bad not everyone sees it the same way.
Alright, I feel I should apologize. I was probably overly harsh in my judgement of Hansa. However, after reading the design thread on the GoA forum, the vision of Hansa that seemed to be prevailing is very different from what Kev eventually created. It just seems to me that the bigwigs discarded most of the suggestions from the community.
That being said, it's still a very good figure. The mustache is... not a choice I would have made, but the rest of the model is very nice. I guess I'm disappointed, since the competing design was, IMO, much more interesting and characterful.
I don't. What I want in my SF is characters to root for. Zombies and xenomorphs aren't much more than glorified animals, and presenting them as more of a threat than they have any right to be just drags everyone else down to their level of impotence.
I love how he's like, howling in agony and clenching his right fist yet somehow all fingers on his left hand are pressing buttons. That's some superior multitasking. Seriously, this RPG has some of the worst best art I've ever seen - looks like the crap everyone doodled on the sides of their notes in school - superheroes with motorcycle helmets and flaming fists - and this game was published. The 80's were a strange time for RPG's...
I'd double my pledge immediately if Gates of Antares added this alien race in. I'd triple my pledge if the rectum became a hit location.
For those of you behind the project, what can Dark Space Corp do to kick it up a notch? What are the sort of new, GW-challenging story elements or gameplay mechanics can turn things around? I really want to hear some fresh new material from them in the month they have left, because I'd love a reason to support a GW alternative.
EDIT: Or maybe I just haven't read up on the forums enough, have they announced any planned reveals that I am just missing or something? I'm starting to get a bit nervous from the lack of new material coming forth. For the record I do not consider multiple updates worth of one green to be more than once piece of new material.
EDIT: (changed image to link to be less negative)
I barely have time to play games that I know I like, I certainly don't have time to bury myself elbow deep in a fledgling rule set and engage in my 1/2000th share of a world building exercise to the extent that would engage me enough to put money down on a handful of concept art and one mostly decent but hardly ground breaking green.
They have a lofty goal and are appealing to a niche of a niche.
What is happening right now could have been happening months prior to the KS starting, engaging and building a strong evangelical core.
Well I think the fact that the money spiked after completed Hansa was posted shows this is the way things need to go. I think you are right plastictrees, even though there has been a lot of knicker-wetting from people wanting to make a game with Rick/help create the game universe, really this is only ever going to be a niche of a niche and obviously not draw in enough money to hit that 300,000 mark.
There has been a lot of discussion on the War-droid sculpts for the last few weeks. What this KS needs now is some really cool looking greens for those, ideally before the 30 day mark, for it to capture the more general wargaming communities imagination.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: OK, we now know that quite some think that they could have had more stuff in the beginning, no need to repeat it over and over andover and over...
You seem to be very passionate about this particular KS and as such your attitude regarding less supportive posts is completely understandable, but your posts are coming across as a bit confrontational and that might drive some prospective backers away like it did in the Wyrd KS, just an FYI.
Having Dark Space Corp know that a fair amount of people might be interested to pledge if they go for the extra effort of presenting more of their concepts can never be a bad thing.
You seem to be very passionate about this particular KS and as such your attitude regarding less supportive posts is completely understandable, but your posts are coming across as a bit confrontational and that might drive some prospective backers away like it did in the Wyrd KS, just an FYI.
Having Dark Space Corp know that a fair amount of people might be interested to pledge if they go for the extra effort of presenting more of their concepts can never be a bad thing.
DSC is following this thread and there is no need to repeat the obvious page after page, 3 times a page. Especially if it is done by mostly the same people over and over.
You seem to be very passionate about this particular KS and as such your attitude regarding less supportive posts is completely understandable, but your posts are coming across as a bit confrontational and that might drive some prospective backers away like it did in the Wyrd KS, just an FYI.
Having Dark Space Corp know that a fair amount of people might be interested to pledge if they go for the extra effort of presenting more of their concepts can never be a bad thing.
DSC is following this thread and there is no need to repeat the obvious page after page, 3 times a page. Especially if it is done by mostly the same people over and over.
But Phantom is right - you are not giving an entirely positive impression to the thread with your posts. I think that the point has been made by both sides, and hopefully next week we'll have more greens to chatter about!
The miniature is quite a nice model. It's also entirely generic, and nothing about it suggests that this game has anything new to offer aesthetically.
And this is the problem. For all the arguments about how revolutionary this is, all we have is a basic game system and a fairly sketchy background, plus some very uninspired 'new' races. It's all very well to talk about involving the internet in the design process, but you need to make it clear where you're going. Otherwise you're either going to ignore most contributions (very risky given how fickle and opinionated the internet is) or end up trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator. This miniature is a good example - it's very safe, and wouldn't look out of place in a WH40k army), but it doesn't provide any insight into what GoA is going to be.
To have any chance of capturing any sustained support, the designers need to come out with a range of much stronger images and ideas - and a coherent aesthetic - and only involve the internet in fleshing all of that out. Give us images of new aliens, weaponry and worlds - this is what forms the basis of a sci-fi game. At the moment it feels as though they got as far as 'wouldn't it be good if we used different dice' then ran out of ideas.
Currently, this project is on a disturbing downward trend - and remember Zweischneid's statement that they'd need £5000 a day in order to hit their funding goal?
That number's gone UP since then!
And they're now projected to hit 90% of their goal, which is also a number that's been going down.
Clearly there's time to rectify all of this - but... not that much time!
They need to get moving, make some changes and show... something!
plastictrees wrote: I barely have time to play games that I know I like, I certainly don't have time to bury myself elbow deep in a fledgling rule set and engage in my 1/2000th share of a world building exercise to the extent that would engage me enough to put money down on a handful of concept art and one mostly decent but hardly ground breaking green.
They have a lofty goal and are appealing to a niche of a niche.
What is happening right now could have been happening months prior to the KS starting, engaging and building a strong evangelical core.
You seem to be very passionate about this particular KS and as such your attitude regarding less supportive posts is completely understandable, but your posts are coming across as a bit confrontational and that might drive some prospective backers away like it did in the Wyrd KS, just an FYI.
Having Dark Space Corp know that a fair amount of people might be interested to pledge if they go for the extra effort of presenting more of their concepts can never be a bad thing.
DSC is following this thread and there is no need to repeat the obvious page after page, 3 times a page. Especially if it is done by mostly the same people over and over.
I'd really like to see this take off but I don't think it's going to make it in it's current state. But now that they got the name out there and word of mouth going, I really think the best way to go would be for them to pull the plug, take a month or 2 to sculpt preliminary figs for the first 2 factions, and then restructure an all new campaign that's more like "Fund our starter set!" instead of "fund our whole game and company!". So the starter gets funded, you add stretch goals to it to find the rest of the game. Start with the minimum needed for the main product, and then add to it... because in general you'll get more backers if they see the campaign is already a success. The word is already out there so one of the hard parts is already done, just restructure things and it'll go really well. Copy off Cool Mini or Not, cuz they're projects work and if it ain't broke, don't fix it
Are we on some weird competition where every new KS has to set a new record?
Duncan, I've gotta agree that you're taking comments a little too personally and confrontationally changing the context. Can you scale it back a little bit?
My take on what Necros was getting at had nothing to do with a "competition". It was a comment about, in his opinion, a way to run a better and successful Kickstarter campaign ... throughout the campaign and not solely about the end pledge amount.
I agree with him. DSC isn't asking for a few thousand dollars to kick off a project. They are hoping for a large sum of money and they are looking to crowdfunding to provide that. To reach that goal, they should provide more "meat" that we "investors" can bite into. I agree with Necros that this KS campaign seems premature.
And, personally, I feel that the tactic of offering pledgers a voice during development to counter the fact that there isn't really much of substance is hollow and not worth my money. A project idea so underdeveloped, if taken to an investment group, would be quickly sent away and told to return with more concrete ideas worthy of investment dollars. This campaign seems to be pandering to hardcore niche fans and is resting on a developer's name rather than on an actual product. Show the product and the money will come.
@Duncan - Your approach is counter-intuitive to getting more backers, remember how the hardcore Wyrd fans reacted to criticism on that KS project, it really didn't help.
Always stick to promoting the positives when you're a fan of something.
There's plenty of time left for this to recover, I've seen other KS projects that had negative daily totals at some points in the middle, but still managed to get funded thanks to a lot of effort put in by the creators causing a last-week surge.
It's just plain up to DSC whether it succeeds or fails at this point. They've got the advice loud and clear and have a fairly straightforward list of things they need to do (concept art for ALL miniatures being sold, and some greens).
It certainly seems like there are things the Dark Space Corp team could have done differently that would have made the Kickstarter more popular more quickly. From the comments on here, it seems like having more of the visual design (either finished artwork or model sculpts) would have gotten more people to back right away. They could have build the community on their forums for a while first, and got some figures sculpted slowly over time, and did the kickstarter later. They could have done a more modest kickstarter, to fund just the rules and maybe two factions, and added on other factions on the whole (likely expensive) online evolving universe component later. Who knows what would have worked best.
However interesting it may be to ponder these things, it is largely irrelevant. They did it the way they did it, and we now have the Kickstarter they created. We can't change that now, although the feedback can certainly influence what they do from here on out. For example, it sounds like they are focusing much more on getting some sculpts done as early as possible since it seems like that is what the holdouts are really waiting for.
At this point, we are just left to decide whether to back or not the Kickstarter they have. I have really good reason to believe I will like the rules, so I am backing because I want the rules to be created. Simple as that. I'm willing to pledge for some models, since I expect them to be good and appear to be a good deal. I can always lower my pledge later if they models they show don't look good. You could easily take the opposite approach of pledging only for the rules now, and upping your pledge later if you end up liking the models they show. Or, if you don't care much about rules and are only interested in new miniatures, which I'm sure a lot of miniature gamers are, I can see how you'd probably just wait until some miniatures are shown to even pledge at all. Since there seem to be a lot of such people, I think Dark Space Corp will make progress on the miniatures a higher priority.
Yeah, I am pledging because I have pretty much loved everything Rick Priestley has made. The minis to me are secondary (I already have huge forces of Copplestone troopers, Urban War Viridians, Pig Iron troopers; along with 1/48 armor and Antenociti vehicles and tanks). It's just a matter of finding a good ruleset for it all... Tomorrow's War didn't do it for me. I honestly have barely played any sci fi stuff, other than AT-43, in the last few years. That makes me really sad, because I started miniatures gaming with Space Hulk and 40k 2nd edition and loved loved loved it.
Let me put it his way: I had barely any interest in historicals - just a bit of Warhammer Ancient Battles - until Hail Caesar and Black Powder came out. Now I have a big Greek army for HC and I'm working on the Blenheim battle (WSS) for Black Powder. I have a giant (300 model) 28mm force of Parliamentarian New Model Army for the adapted Pike & Shotte rules. It was singlehandedly Rick's excellent rulesets that made me excited to game in historicals. I have no doubt in my mind that Rick will come through again and Gates of Antares will invigorate me with sci-fi the same way HC and BP did for historicals.
That alone is worth my 100-something gbp pledge, regardless of models.
Currently, this project is on a disturbing downward trend - and remember Zweischneid's statement that they'd need £5000 a day in order to hit their funding goal?
That number's gone UP since then!
And they're now projected to hit 90% of their goal, which is also a number that's been going down.
Clearly there's time to rectify all of this - but... not that much time!
They need to get moving, make some changes and show... something!
Looking over a lot of kicktraq, that is a common trend. Most projects receive a ton at the beginning, and a ton at the end.
Look at Pathfinder MMO, people were 100% sure it was going to fail...and BAM, the last 3 days hit. Success. The best part is Kicktraq still had it trending to failure when it had already succeeded.
I do think they need to show more, but they stated days ago that they are going to.
Hmm well I have been thinking since no one has brought it up but...
Just how connected is DSC is to Warlord? Is DSC receiving any funds/facilities from WL? I ask because it has been repeated that this KS seems to be staring a whole company so I'm wondering just how much of a company DSC is currently without the KS.
Nowhere is this labelled on the kickstarter.l Or is if it is, I didn't see it.
> Well, the front page of the kickstarter was updated with Hansa's latest update, so I guess you haven't actually looked at the page for some time. If you're that opposed to the whole project, it's probably not for you, but if you ARE interested, AND you like the figure (which you sort of said you did) then maybe the £25 pledge would be the right spot for you - that way you get to help bring this project to life, you get the rules (which are hopefully going to be good) and you get a nice figure (that IS good).
> I haven't looked at the pages at all, just the kickstarer, as I suspect a lot of people are going to do. And judging by the kickstarter itself, this is woefully lacking in execution.
And "hopefully" the rules will be good? Well you know what they say, hope in one hand, gak in the other, see which fills up first.
I don't. What I want in my SF is characters to root for. Zombies and xenomorphs aren't much more than glorified animals, and presenting them as more of a threat than they have any right to be just drags everyone else down to their level of impotence.
There's a fan-made d20 Aliens supplement called Alians: Game Over that provides rules and stats, and going by what we know now, the Aliens are bio-engineered predators and are indeed quite dangerous. There are no shortage of zombie movies proving the same about zombies. Remember, this kickstarter is a rare opportunity to have plastic figures made. I believe the best figures, and the ones most likely to sell in bulk are plastic unit figures. And if you want cheap unit figures, which I do, zombies and aliens are where its at.
If you want sci-fi characters Hasslefree, Infnity, Alpha Forge, and to a lesser extent Reaper have you covered. If you want cheap unit figures, which I do, zombies and aliens are where its at.
Currently, this project is on a disturbing downward trend - and remember Zweischneid's statement that they'd need £5000 a day in order to hit their funding goal?
That number's gone UP since then!
And they're now projected to hit 90% of their goal, which is also a number that's been going down.
Yup. Shoulda gone with indiegogo, which lets you keep the cash, even if the target isn't reached.
Alpharius wrote: They need to get moving, make some changes and show... something!
I agree. I'm new to all this, but the time to show proof-of-concept was when the kickstarter first started.
chris_valera wrote: I agree. I'm new to all this, but the time to show proof-of-concept was when the kickstarter first started.
Yeah... they should have learned from Through the Breach (which I did support, not just ragging on it) that proof of concept at the beginning is way more exciting than concept in the middle-end...
Nowhere is this labelled on the kickstarter.l Or is if it is, I didn't see it.
It says 'Hansa' at the top of the picture, which is reasonably clear.
I haven't looked at the pages at all, just the kickstarer, as I suspect a lot of people are going to do. And judging by the kickstarter itself, this is woefully lacking in execution.
The green is placed on the kickstarter front page. Though if I were them, I'd put it right at the top, not halfway down.
Looking over a lot of kicktraq, that is a common trend. Most projects receive a ton at the beginning, and a ton at the end.
Look at Pathfinder MMO, people were 100% sure it was going to fail...and BAM, the last 3 days hit. Success. The best part is Kicktraq still had it trending to failure when it had already succeeded.
I do think they need to show more, but they stated days ago that they are going to.
There isn't a single post in this discussion that says this Kickstarter will fail because Kicktraq "says so".
Everyone is using Kicktraq to illustrate (!) the financial challenge they have to overcome, as people have done with Pathfinder. Pathfinder stepped up their game and succeeded. GoA can do likewise. Everyone here hopes they will do likewise.
But we use Kicktraq as a visualization of the issues at hand.
By claiming people use Kicktraq as a prediction, rather than a visualization, you are detracting from the critical issues that need to be addressed with this Kickstarter (symptoms of which can be visualized with Kicktraq) and ultimately hurting the GoA-Kickstarter by diverting attention from the critical issues everyone here posting Kicktraq stats has tried to communicate.
Was just trying to say, they'll probably do much better showing off several figures and trying to get a starter set funded, with a lower goal up front and expand upon it.. than ask for a big sum up front that makes the majority of potential customers think it's unattainable. Fund the idea for the first couple of factions vs fund the whole the universe.
Necros wrote: Was just trying to say, they'll probably do much better showing off several figures and trying to get a starter set funded, with a lower goal up front and expand upon it.. than ask for a big sum up front that makes the majority of potential customers think it's unattainable. Fund the idea for the first couple of factions vs fund the whole the universe.
Actually, I think they should've gone with several (!) Kickstarters to build a "whole universe" the way that McVey or Mantic Games are doing it.
Start with a smaller, more board-game-style game (Alabaster, DreadBall) that gives a first glimpse into the universe, as well as get people to buy into the universe with the first set of miniatures. Than, from that, expand, build and, eventually, do the "big" Kickstarter.
It's all the more puzzling because the GoA-team mentioned in several instances that they are looking forward to "smaller" Necromunda-style spin-offs and/or pen-and-paper roleplaying games.
Anyone else think this hamza mini is a rip off of solid snake or is it just me?Slap some hair on add and bobs your uncle.I only say this as it was the first thing that sprang to mind as soon as i saw it.
Well it's sci far armor with typically has the same theme to it (skin tight with armor plating and techie stuff) and he the was actually going for this look just sci-fied up.
Also, one of my favorite illustrations of an alien, ever.
This whole rectum/alien episode really made me laugh, thanks judgedoug. I badly need to get hold of that rpg book.
My wife, sitting across the room, asked what I was laughing at, so I had to show her. She is not at all interested, but laughed her ass off anyway.
Glad to help. This should assist in your search: http://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/109201/space-infantry-rule-book simply the most awful great amazing terrible RPG ever. Worth trying to nab a copy; every illustration is as good/bad if not better/worse as the one I posted. Good luck in your hunt!
When discussing GoA with some people I game with, I found it a pain to direct them to specific information...well the small amounts of existing information of course. The website and the forums both need a good bit of reorganizing.
Small example is that factions are actually under the species tab on the main website.
I never said anyone was claiming failure of GoA due to Kicktraq, I was simply stating the interesting front and backend loads on fundraising in response to people quoting numbers. I apologize if I expressed it poorly, but I would request you send any further discussion on this through PM as to not derail the topic.
Also, one of my favorite illustrations of an alien, ever.
This whole rectum/alien episode really made me laugh, thanks judgedoug. I badly need to get hold of that rpg book.
My wife, sitting across the room, asked what I was laughing at, so I had to show her. She is not at all interested, but laughed her ass off anyway.
Glad to help. This should assist in your search: http://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/109201/space-infantry-rule-book simply the most awful great amazing terrible RPG ever. Worth trying to nab a copy; every illustration is as good/bad if not better/worse as the one I posted. Good luck in your hunt!
Yes! Thank you! I will begin my epic journey to owning this truly terrible masterpiece
They don't seem to be warming to me too much. I have that effect on people I guess they tapped into the sort rampant fanboyism GW enjoys, except there's no actual product, or even much information for this supposed kickstarter. So I don't know what they're getting all excited about. Rampant fanboyism, I guess.
But I do represent the "average" person; someone that stopped in, looked at the kickstarter and based on the lack of info decided it wasn't worth my time. Going by the fourms, there was even less there before. Rick and pals really should have been more prepared than they were. As one poster said, why should I pledge $100, when they weren't even willing to cough up $100 to produce a green?
I like the one poster who essentially said, "Oh, I guess he paid the money just to rant" as if we're not all going to have different opinions, and like that the kickstarter really isn't short on details. There's no getting through to these clowns.
I also like how my ideas for plastic zombies are dumb, when just a box of plastic zombie was one of the few kickstarters that succeeded, and going by (failing) kicktraq, this supposedly unique futuristic universe can't have them. No zombies and xenomorphs allowed you guys! Plastic zombies are also doing well for Wargames Factory, who made two boxes of them, as well as Mantic Games.
I am going to laugh so hard when this thing fething fails.
"Here we are / We sail on a ship made of dreams / Going fething nowhere..."
They don't seem to be warming to me too much. I have that effect on people I guess they tapped into the sort rampant fanboyism GW enjoys, except there's no actual product, or even much information for this supposed kickstarter. So I don't know what they're getting all excited about. Rampant fanboyism, I guess.
But I do represent the "average" person; someone that stopped in, looked at the kickstarter and based on the lack of info decided it wasn't worth my time. Going by the fourms, there was even less there before. Rick and pals really should have been more prepared than they were. As one poster said, why should I pledge $100, when they weren't even willing to cough up $100 to produce a green?
I like the one poster who essentially said, "Oh, I guess he paid the money just to rant" as if we're not all going to have different opinions, and like that the kickstarter really isn't short on details. There's no getting through to these clowns.
I also like how my ideas for plastic zombies are dumb, when just a box of plastic zombie was one of the few kickstarters that succeeded, and going by (failing) kicktraq, this supposedly unique futuristic universe can't have them. No zombies and xenomorphs allowed you guys! Plastic zombies are also doing well for Wargames Factory, who made two boxes of them, as well as Mantic Games.
I am going to laugh so hard when this thing fething fails.
"Here we are / We sail on a ship made of dreams / Going fething nowhere..."
That kind of attitude might go some way to justify why people arent warming to you so much, alot of people want this project to succeed and are contributing in a constructive and helpful way. If you dont want to be a part of it then joining a forum to express negative opinions and start cursing over there isnt a constructive method. I respect the opinions of alot of the people in this thread both constructive and critical of the project, however your post is insulting to the supporters of the project and serves little/no purpose.
I just wish they would release a pic of one model from each faction. Not knowing if the models of a faction will actually appeal me is enough to keep my $100 in my wallet.
BlueDagger wrote: I just wish they would release a pic of one model from each faction. Not knowing if the models of a faction will actually appeal me is enough to keep my $100 in my wallet.
No kidding!
Same here, by the way.
I want this to succeed and I want to pledge, but so far, there isn't enough of anything that makes me hit "OK".
Seeing the wardrone greens will go some way into letting us know exactly what people will be getting (especially given that the drones make up a considerable % of higher value pledges), but it would be nice to get a feel for the various factions presented, alot of gamers invest based on aethetics without looking at rules/fluff (others dont, not saying everyones that same). I model/paint more than I play so the model choice available would define how much I invest.
Frankly, the latest update makes me a bit worried game-play wise too
STAT FORMAT
This is the basic stat format I am working with – I may need an extra column for special rule annotations but for now I’ve just made notes beneath each stat bloc.
Type of Weapon: Just that really!
Shoot: The number of shots – in some cases also the multiplier for blast weapons but we’ll come to them some other time. The number shown is the number of dice rolled and therefore the potentially number of hits that can be scored each time the weapon fires.
Range: The range bands in inches – it is generally easier to hit at effective range than at long or extreme range – but the actual modifiers vary depending upon the type of fire (Firefight, Range, Opportunity, Return).
Strike Value: The modifier applied to the target’s Resist roll to avoid taking damage from the hit – e.g. SV 1, Resist stat is at –1.
Why are they using "40K-style" multiplies of 6 for weapon ranges, when the whole system runs on a D10, not on a D6. I *cough* would've tried doing something more "organic" to the D10. Like modifies of -/+ 1 or 1D10 with each 10" or so.
Why are they using "40K-style" multiplies of 6 for weapon ranges, when the whole system runs on a D10, not on a D6. I *cough* would've tried doing something more "organic" to the D10. Like modifies of -/+ 1 or 1D10 with each 10" or so.
That´s easy, many are used to multiples of 15cm/6inch and this makes it easier for them to adapt to the game. AT-43 did multiples of 10 but used the Universal Table and used D6 (Universal Table made D13 out of it). So there really does not need to be any connection between D and ranges. And when measured in cm it IS multiples/halves of 10.
> That kind of attitude might go some way to justify why people arent warming to you so much, alot of people want this project to succeed and are contributing in a constructive and helpful way. If you dont want to be a part of it then joining a forum to express negative opinions and start cursing over there isnt a constructive method. I respect the opinions of alot of the people in this thread both constructive and critical of the project, however your post is insulting to the supporters of the project and serves little/no purpose.
Yeah, but represent the average guy on the street. I've contributed to kickstarters in the past, and I *want* to like this kickstarter, but so far it's so poorly done and has so little information attached to it, I'm *really* not all that positive about it. Deal with it. A lot of people want this project to succeed is fine, but this "ship of dreams" fanboy attitude is very tiring, especially considering Rick and pals, couldn't be bothered to put in the initial legwork.
BlueDagger wrote: I just wish they would release a pic of one model from each faction. Not knowing if the models of a faction will actually appeal me is enough to keep my $100 in my wallet.
This. I wish they would, you know, put in a decent amount of effort, considering that they're you know, asking for money and all..
That "just fork over your fething cash" attitude we get from GW doesn't fly too far, out here in the real world.
BlueDagger wrote: I just wish they would release a pic of one model from each faction. Not knowing if the models of a faction will actually appeal me is enough to keep my $100 in my wallet.
No kidding!
Same here, by the way.
I want this to succeed and I want to pledge, but so far, there isn't enough of anything that makes me hit "OK".
See, I'm not the only one. I'd like to get a new sci-fi game but there's just nothing here. 25 bucks for an LE figure and a digital rulebook (read: free) is a bit much
kenshin620 wrote: Hmm well I have been thinking since no one has brought it up but...
Just how connected is DSC is to Warlord? Is DSC receiving any funds/facilities from WL? I ask because it has been repeated that this KS seems to be staring a whole company so I'm wondering just how much of a company DSC is currently without the KS.
Rick Priestley is a major shareholder of warlord games so there is quite a tight link there. I imagine warlord will promote and distribute the game at the very least, and I would presume that they would fund it or supplement funding if the KS did not succeed (though that is 100% conjecture on my part).
They don't seem to be warming to me too much. I have that effect on people I guess they tapped into the sort rampant fanboyism GW enjoys, except there's no actual product, or even much information for this supposed kickstarter. So I don't know what they're getting all excited about. Rampant fanboyism, I guess.
[...]
I am going to laugh so hard when this thing fething fails.
"Here we are / We sail on a ship made of dreams / Going fething nowhere..."
Do you feel that you are presenting a good image of yourself here? I can't say that I'm impressed by what I see.
shingouki wrote: Anyone else think this hamza mini is a rip off of solid snake or is it just me?Slap some hair on add and bobs your uncle.I only say this as it was the first thing that sprang to mind as soon as i saw it.
I think that you need to expand your exposure some. I would guess that you are younger and mainly got exposure to sci-fi through video games. No insult intended there, just a bit of speculation. There have been many, many bodysuit-with-armor wearing characters, and honestly the details of this figure don't look much at all like the character you posted.
chris_valera wrote: I'm *really* not all that positive about it. Deal with it.
You certainly don't have to be positive about it, but you could dial back the confrontational attitude about it a bit. It's not doing you any favors, and certainly won't help get you heard by the "fanboys".
As for the BGoA game and Kickstarter:
But I need to see more. A couple of the names attached to this project don't inspire confidence in me and I'll need to see more actual product before I pony up cash.
chris_valera wrote: I'm having fun over at the Gates of Antares official forums:
I also like how my ideas for plastic zombies are dumb, when just a box of plastic zombie was one of the few kickstarters that succeeded, and going by (failing) kicktraq, this supposedly unique futuristic universe can't have them. No zombies and xenomorphs allowed you guys! Plastic zombies are also doing well for Wargames Factory, who made two boxes of them, as well as Mantic Games.
If WGF makes zombies, and Mantic makes zombies, and even a successful, unnamed kickstarter makes zombies, why would DSC want to make more zombies? I agre that they need to put something out there, but that something needs to be the wardrones that every faction in the game will use. That will be the backbone of their miniatures line, and the much-needed shto int he arm for this project.
chris_valera wrote: I'm having fun over at the Gates of Antares official forums:
I also like how my ideas for plastic zombies are dumb, when just a box of plastic zombie was one of the few kickstarters that succeeded, and going by (failing) kicktraq, this supposedly unique futuristic universe can't have them. No zombies and xenomorphs allowed you guys! Plastic zombies are also doing well for Wargames Factory, who made two boxes of them, as well as Mantic Games.
If WGF makes zombies, and Mantic makes zombies, and even a successful, unnamed kickstarter makes zombies, why would DSC want to make more zombies? I agre that they need to put something out there, but that something needs to be the wardrones that every faction in the game will use. That will be the backbone of their miniatures line, and the much-needed shto int he arm for this project.
They need to make zombies because the male zombies that WGF makes are true 25mm scale and the ones Mantic makes are 28, but they're clearly fantasy zombies. There's a market for 28mm zombies, and zombies are things you need a ton of, anyway.
Also, I now know why I didn't realize Hansa was the promo fig, the figure itself looks completely different than the sillohuete shown on the various backer levels images. The sillohuete shows the guy totian a massive chain-gun or something, Hansa has just a rifle. They may wanna fix that, actually put his picture on the various backer images.
Also, they might want to add a five-pound option for people who want to order just the LE figure, or multiples of him. From what little I've seen of the rules, I'm not down for the rules either. The Hansa figure looks okay, the 70s porn-stache and silly butt-plates notwithstanding.
Also, I now know why I didn't realize Hansa was the promo fig, the figure itself looks completely different than the sillohuete shown on the various backer levels images. The sillohuete shows the guy totian a massive chain-gun or something, Hansa has just a rifle. They may wanna fix that, actually put his picture on the various backer images.
Those silhouettes are just representational, they are not meant to look like the figures.
The Hansa figure looks okay, the 70s porn-stache and silly butt-plates notwithstanding.
Reading today's update on weapons/armour, it seems as if the butt-plates might just be part of the harness used to generate Hansa's hyper-light forcefield. Somehow, knowing they're not supposed to be actual armoured arse cheeks, makes me like them a lot more.
chris_valera wrote: There's a fan-made d20 Aliens supplement called Alians: Game Over that provides rules and stats, and going by what we know now, the Aliens are bio-engineered predators and are indeed quite dangerous. There are no shortage of zombie movies proving the same about zombies.
I disagree. There is no shortage of zombie movies proving that writers will cheat their asses off to make zombies suck less, but it is only that cheating that allows a slow, stupid, clumsy beast that can't even reproduce without human assistance to be a threat to any civilisation that has invented the Maxim gun.
Remember, this kickstarter is a rare opportunity to have plastic figures made. I believe the best figures, and the ones most likely to sell in bulk are plastic unit figures. And if you want cheap unit figures, which I do, zombies and aliens are where its at.
If you want sci-fi characters Hasslefree, Infnity, Alpha Forge, and to a lesser extent Reaper have you covered. If you want cheap unit figures, which I do, zombies and aliens are where its at.
Nobody wants "cheap unit figures", they want cheap unit figures for specific units they'd like to build. I want plastic kits for female infantry; plastic kits for xenomorphs or dead people are not a substitute. You want plastic kits for zombies and xenomorphs; plastic kits for female infantry are not a substitute.
shingouki wrote: Anyone else think this hamza mini is a rip off of solid snake or is it just me?Slap some hair on add and bobs your uncle.I only say this as it was the first thing that sprang to mind as soon as i saw it.
I can't say I did. The first thing that sprang to mind for me was that he's got the same sort of HUD as my avatar on their forum.
They need to make zombies because the male zombies that WGF makes are true 25mm scale and the ones Mantic makes are 28, but they're clearly fantasy zombies. There's a market for 28mm zombies, and zombies are things you need a ton of, anyway.
They need to make zombies since you want them to make zombies. Mantic zombi-parts are that generic that it was no problem turning them into nazi zombies. And excuse me, but why from a financial pov does it make sense when nearly everyone else does make zombies, even space zombies. If the zombies bring something new to the topic they might be an investment with a future, but simple the 1100st zombie-line won´t do it. And propably ther just waits another valera round the corner that would deride them because they are doing zombies all over again that others have already done.
I look forward to seeing how this KS runs over the coming weeks. I feel that it is too early for people to be commenting on whether or not the company made a mistake with their timing, when they came out and told everybody that they have a schedule in place and it is slow. It may seem too slow for the people looking in, but the schedule may be working for the actual creators. Some people also are debating whether a collaborative effort is worthwhile. The nice thing about the company offering this effort, is it makes feedback seem more important, even if others choose not to use it. I also don't understand people supporting projects only for minis that they plan on using for something else, I would think that the styles used by each group would be meant to work with their own project rather than mishmashing minis together. To be fair I'm very new to the wargaming hobby, and I am interested in seeing what else is available (not just the GW, PP offering). I was very interested that some of the people from the project took the time to join us here at Dakka and tell us what they thought of all of our ramblings, especially since they have their own forums to keep track of. I think that shows a commitment to the user/gamer and it is a good attribute for a mini company to have. I hope everybody else stays interested in this thread, and we continue to offer new ideas to BtGoA and each other.
Also, I now know why I didn't realize Hansa was the promo fig, the figure itself looks completely different than the sillohuete shown on the various backer levels images. The sillohuete shows the guy totian a massive chain-gun or something, Hansa has just a rifle. They may wanna fix that, actually put his picture on the various backer images.
Those silhouettes are just representational, they are not meant to look like the figures.
The Hansa figure looks okay, the 70s porn-stache and silly butt-plates notwithstanding.
Reading today's update on weapons/armour, it seems as if the butt-plates might just be part of the harness used to generate Hansa's hyper-light forcefield. Somehow, knowing they're not supposed to be actual armoured arse cheeks, makes me like them a lot more.
As an illustration it damn well should look like the model your getting. The guys on the forum hand-waved it, like oh, those are the old illustrations, before we had the figure green. That's a very GW way of doing business. These guys don't have GW's track record, nor should they be saying, "Oh don't worry about the lack of proof-of-concept, just hand over your cash, kids!"
Futuristic technology or not, the butt-armor is still dumb.
>I disagree. There is no shortage of zombie movies proving that writers will cheat their asses off to make zombies suck less, but it is only that cheating that allows a slow, stupid, clumsy beast that can't even reproduce without human assistance to be a threat to any civilisation that has invented the Maxim gun.
I disagree with your disagreement. Look at New Orleans, and how quickly things go to hell if there's no authority, or if there's a panic. There's no law and order, and food and water at a grocery store run out very quickly, and resupplies don't happen for some time.
They need to make zombies because the male zombies that WGF makes are true 25mm scale and the ones Mantic makes are 28, but they're clearly fantasy zombies. There's a market for 28mm zombies, and zombies are things you need a ton of, anyway.
They need to make zombies since you want them to make zombies. Mantic zombi-parts are that generic that it was no problem turning them into nazi zombies. And excuse me, but why from a financial pov does it make sense when nearly everyone else does make zombies, even space zombies. If the zombies bring something new to the topic they might be an investment with a future, but simple the 1100st zombie-line won´t do it. And propably ther just waits another valera round the corner that would deride them because they are doing zombies all over again that others have already done.
They can be converted but that takes time and effort. The mantic zombies can be combines with the corporation troopers as part of their deal, but it still takes a ton of work.
For zombies being over-saturated, they actually do quite well on kickstarter. Zombicide far exceeded its goals, and there was a box of zombie plastics that met its goals on indiegogo as well. Zombies are popular, especially now and it's as close to a sure thing as you can get on kickstarter.
Rolt wrote: For anyones whos intrested, Beast of War just posted a video interview with Rick Priestly about GoA
He does point out this kickstarter is more in the spirit of kickstarter, unlike other kickstarters which are basically a pre-order system, and let you see more.
He says it's truly innovative, but we haven't seen enough to tell whether it's truly innovative.
The interviewer should have asked them why they scrubbed all mention of "hard" sci-fi from their kickstarter page.
Should have asked them if they got tired of all the nerds going on about Clarke and Asimov on their forum, or maybe they just realized that this game isn't gonna sell if it does have plasma guns and railguns, and damn the sci-fi nerds' opinions. He mentions space opera near the end.
Should have asked them why the promo figure is a burly guy with a porn-star moustache, when so many people wanted a slim, dashing Han Solo, or Captain Sparrow type leader.
Rick mentions nanotechnology and force fields, should have expanded on that. Nano-machines in the water that make a cloud AI that decides on everything?
Again with the genetically engineered apes. I love zombies, but is there really that much a fanbase for futuristic ape-men?
AT-43 had better starting alien races, with the Therians and all. Of course, we haven't really seen much of the aliens yet. Or much of anything, for that matter.
They talk about interactive campaigns, but GW's track records wasn't too great with those. I remember Ork throwing quite a monkey wrench into the world during the Eye of Terror campaign.
No new images, either. No talk of any new greens being sculpted.
Talk of the action pool is nice, the Combat Intensity Level, and the action pool. Apparently they're structuring the game around 5-10 figures, like early Rogue Trader or Infinity. I like Infinity, but this doesn't interest me one bit.
They mention the Hansa figure butt-plates near the end! They say they're getting rid of them! That alone was worth sitting through the entire video.
They talk about a "pre-alpha" rulebook coming very soon.
I'm not picking any fight here, but the comments about zombies does again make me worried about the "you design it" aspect.
Everyone is gonna think that they can use this company (and other similar attempts such as wargames factory, etc) to make their own pet projects or dream products
"But isnt that the point of this? To have fans help develop the game?"
Well yes and no. While giving ideas is what these companies intend, they have to fit in the framework of what the creators of the game intended. Otherwise well guess what someone is gonna yell "Hey can you make Sci Fi Greatcoat Germans?" And even if they could technically fit in, other people can provide an alternative, an alteration, or an argument against them. After all I could stroll right in the GoA forum and propose an all female clone army in skintight stealth suits armed with beam katanas (btw I would really love to have that....dont judge me). More plausible than say sci fi greatcoats or zombies? Possibly. Would the forum community/developers feel comfortable with that idea? I'm gonna go on a limb and say no.
Though as others pointed out majority rules can have its downsides. Design by committee can have some hazardous results, the early WGF forum days provide an excellent example. And at times it can be frustrating to have your ideas shot down by the majority, taking another example from WGF is their topic on Power Armor in which if you dare speak anything different then the same group of people will remind you with the same 5-6 images that have been posted over and over again on what the PA should be (no idea of WGF will even get around to that stuff). Reminds me a bit from Mass Effect 2 where there was a comment about the beauty of democracy, even if it made some people uncomfortable.
In the end I'm not saying "ooh dont suggest anything!", just keep in mind the general thought process of the community and the universe the devs have created. Who knows, maybe there might be a "totally a textbook zombie but they're not called zombies" race/disease in GoA.
kenshin620 wrote: I'm not picking any fight here, but the comments about zombies does again make me worried about the "you design it" aspect.
Everyone is gonna think that they can use this company (and other similar attempts such as wargames factory, etc) to make their own pet projects or dream products
"But isnt that the point of this? To have fans help develop the game?"
Well yes and no. While giving ideas is what these companies intend, they have to fit in the framework of what the creators of the game intended.
Due to the lack of info, the creators haven't intended much. It started out as hard sci-fi, like Asimov and Clarke, then that got scrubbed, and Rick mentioned space opera. So I guess Firefly, or a more realistic Star Wars?
We got some info about nano-technology that's in everything and a cloud AI in this video, but what little fluff there is is scattered across forum posts. It's a terrible way to try and launch a product. The lack of attention and planning at product launch was woeful.
Agree with you on design by committee, but if you come up with something, and the designer shoots it down, is it really a collaborative effort? Am I really designing a game with Rick Priestley, as they advertise? Rick really hasn't provided much of a framework to go by.
At this point, no one even knows what the game is supposed to be, other than sci-fi. It's not 40K, we know that, and it's not toy-like over-detailed models, which I'm guessing is a slam on Infinity and maybe Privateer Press, or maybe AT-43.
chris_valera wrote: but if you come up with something, and the designer shoots it down, is it really a collaborative effort?
Well there can be an outrankign position. Just because someone does have a button to say "Sorry no" doesnt mean its not collaborative.
Its like say a congress or some other similar governing body passed a bill after some collaborating but a president or prime minister veto'd it. Another example is the video game company Valve and their Steam Workshop for their games Team Fortress 2 and Dota 2. People create things, other people can rate them on how much they like it but even the most highly voted items still have to be approved by Valve. These systems allows collaborating to create something but with position comes privileges and power. While this power could technically be abused I highly doubt someone like Rick or what have you would outright refuse anything.
Though irl congress is a bunch of blithering idiots who couldnt agree on how to tie a shoe and valve just keeps accepting the same people over and over again while ignoring some really well thought out submissions sometimes....
ok I admit those are some bad examples but I hope I didnt destroy my original comment
Btw though I do agree though that there still needs to be some concrete examples of what exactly is going on in this universe. I'm still quite skeptical on this project
chris_valera wrote: but if you come up with something, and the designer shoots it down, is it really a collaborative effort?
Well there can be an outrankign position. Just because someone does have a button to say "Sorry no" doesnt mean its not collaborative.
Its like say a congress or some other similar governing body passed a bill after some collaborating but a president or prime minister veto'd it. Another example is the video game company Valve and their Steam Workshop for their games Team Fortress 2 and Dota 2. People create things, other people can rate them on how much they like it but even the most highly voted items still have to be approved by Valve. These systems allows collaborating to create something but with position comes privileges and power. While this power could technically be abused I highly doubt someone like Rick or what have you would outright refuse anything.
Though irl congress is a bunch of blithering idiots who couldnt agree on how to tie a shoe and valve just keeps accepting the same people over and over again while ignoring some really well thought out submissions sometimes....
ok I admit those are some bad examples but I hope I didnt destroy my original comment
Btw though I do agree though that there still needs to be some concrete examples of what exactly is going on in this universe. I'm still quite skeptical on this project
Rick and the higher-ups being the final arbiter of what gets in remind me a little too much of GW's mishandling of the various player campaigns. It's lie, just have the stones to say your battles really do have an impact.
Look at d20. Aside from some base ground rules, they were no ground rules. You could create whatever. The game's been out for 10 years and 3.5 still gets play. Pathfinder, which is 3.75 essentially, is outselling D&D 4th edition and no-one seems to be very excited over the upcoming 5th edition. They too say they're taking fan imput very seriously, but i haven't heard much good about it.
Meanwhile, I just posted some design for the new Gulfstream G650 and the relatively new Boeing 787 Dreamliner, a plane notable for being the first plane since 1979 to be grounded due to ongoing technical issues. d20 Modern had been out for ten years now.
A collaborative effort doesn't mean that every idea will, can or should be accepted. To be fair, no-one is pledging to collaborate with Chris Valera on making a new ruleset, nor is it likely to get much in pledges.
The problem is in fact that using the word "collaborative" instantly creates a sense of entitlement and butthurt, so it's a poor choice of words on the part of Priestly, et al. Then again, they need a way to say "we'll take your ideas onboard, and listen to your feedback, BUT anything you help us create you hereby rescind your own creative rights to that IP,, etc etc.
I wouldn't buy Zombies. I despise zombies, and note that I even play Tomb Kings, so this is a very specific hatred. However, I am interested in ape people and potentially interested in cat people, final aesthetic determining. I don't want Furryporn, but I would like interesting transhumanist models to paint.
I'm not sure why you're so keen on zombies, Valera. Considering that I struggle to think of many sci fi universes with them in - The Borg are one, though somewhat disguised, example; Sunshine* got slammed for being another example. Whereas I can think of several examples of uplifted animals, so they are in fact appealing to the sci-fi crowd here. Just not you. Perhaps you should get over it, rather than taking this thread up with endless confrontations.
* Great movie, but undeniably let down by the weirdly action-focused last segment. If it had kept on the mental disintegration angle, it would have been a better movie.
Actually I planned to give you an point by point answer, but your reactions towards others convinced me that it would be not worth the time since you would find another way to weasel your way out of a real discussion.
Just let me say that you want a lot but do not have that much experience with the production side of tabletop and nothing anyone of us will say will change your pov.
@AT-43
The apes were one of the races that really sold extremly well, so there must be a demand when done right. And actually the first "alien race" in AT-43 is not an alien race. If we count the Karman as human relatives the Cogs were the ONLY alien race in AT-43 (Kryg never went beyond sketches).
shingouki wrote: Anyone else think this hamza mini is a rip off of solid snake or is it just me?Slap some hair on add and bobs your uncle.I only say this as it was the first thing that sprang to mind as soon as i saw it.
I think that you need to expand your exposure some. I would guess that you are younger and mainly got exposure to sci-fi through video games. No insult intended there, just a bit of speculation. There have been many, many bodysuit-with-armor wearing characters, and honestly the details of this figure don't look much at all like the character you posted.
I think you need to wind your neck in a bit mate.The model is clearly a copy or in the very least "inspired by"solid snake .I want cool looking mini's as much as the next man not rip offs or dare i say the dreaded words ip infringement.The last thing we need is this projct getting funding from the community and then getting hammered by Konami.
I am a fan of the pedigree of the designers ( I have a signed copy of the original Rogue Trader!), but I don;t see enough meat in this kickstarter to make me want to pledge for it. Which is too bad, really.
I sure hope the committee can design the perfect troop transport for them.
That's pretty ironic, because the M2/M3 Bradley is arguable the best IFV in the world. It's fast, can bring infantry anywhere they're needed, is well-armored, and is powerful enough that a single Bradley can engage and defeat tanks. They are very robust, quick, and easy to repair; so much so that the US Government hasn't bought any in a decade or longer because any that are damaged are quickly repaired and back on the field.
I sure hope the committee can design the perfect troop transport for them.
That's pretty ironic, because the M2/M3 Bradley is arguable the best IFV in the world. It's fast, can bring infantry anywhere they're needed, is well-armored, and is powerful enough that a single Bradley can engage and defeat tanks. They are very robust, quick, and easy to repair; so much so that the US Government hasn't bought any in a decade or longer because any that are damaged are quickly repaired and back on the field.
So yeah give me a whole army of Bradleys.
So, design by committee and lowest common denominator don't always fail, I guess. It still made for a humorous 10 minutes.
In either case, this thread is demonstrating why it might not be ideal for model design...
I want my zombie pirate Boba Fett with fedora and trench coat or I'm out!
Compel wrote: They might take the Nano-Cat Ninjas as an actual idea...
Samurai Pizza cats?
I love Infinity, I would buy Samurai Pizza Cat figures. The Daktari for Infinity sold very well. It's a bit furry, but it sold triple what any other figure sold. Corbus Belli know how to sculpt power armor, too.
AegisGrimm wrote: I am a fan of the pedigree of the designers ( I have a signed copy of the original Rogue Trader!), but I don;t see enough meat in this kickstarter to make me want to pledge for it. Which is too bad, really.
This. Way too many people are saying things like this and it worries me. Rick and co should be putting in some long hours to get that pre-alpha rulebook done. I told my friend who knows nothing about Warhammer about Gates of Antares, and he concurred with me; everything they're doing now they should have done before the launched the kickstarter.
I think you need to wind your neck in a bit mate.The model is clearly a copy or in the very least "inspired by"solid snake .I want cool looking mini's as much as the next man not rip offs or dare i say the dreaded words ip infringement.The last thing we need is this projct getting funding from the community and then getting hammered by Konami.
I'm not sure what that means. Again, no offense was intended. And your new picture reinforces my earlier guess and my point that Hansa and Solid Snake only vaguely resemble each other. Sorry.
Hansa looks more like a Mass Effect character to me. But then, only vaguely at that.
Either way, I want to see more greens and finished art.
kenshin620 wrote: After all I could stroll right in the GoA forum and propose an all female clone army in skintight stealth suits armed with beam katanas (btw I would really love to have that....dont judge me). More plausible than say sci fi greatcoats or zombies? Possibly. Would the forum community/developers feel comfortable with that idea? I'm gonna go on a limb and say no.
I'd be in favour as long as I got my multipart plastics, but reading the thread about including women in the game you can see the same divide between the two types of feminist as, for example, when you look at the discussion around Tropes Versus Women.
judgedoug wrote: No ammo or fuel either. I plan to confound my opponent into their eventual surrender.
kenshin620 wrote: After all I could stroll right in the GoA forum and propose an all female clone army in skintight stealth suits armed with beam katanas (btw I would really love to have that....dont judge me). More plausible than say sci fi greatcoats or zombies? Possibly. Would the forum community/developers feel comfortable with that idea? I'm gonna go on a limb and say no.
I'd be in favour as long as I got my multipart plastics, but reading the thread about including women in the game you can see the same divide between the two types of feminist as, for example, when you look at the discussion around Tropes Versus Women.
That woman in war thread is funny. If we went by how it really was today, female soldiers would have to be S2, would cost the same as the male troopers, and would never see major front line combat.
Yeah ran across that thread about a week ago, read about 10 pages so far, were not getting female troops guys, ever. At this rate the only female troops we will get are non-offensive head swaps.
But even then I'm sure somone will find an issue with it. The worst thing is this mentallity will probley spread across any race or suggested idea that features "female" concepts of any kind.
Looks like were not getting any "furry" troops either, seems like that idea is being slowly turned against, unless it looks like thunder cats that is.
Rolt wrote:
Looks like were not getting any "furry" troops either, seems like that idea is being slowly turned against, unless it looks like thunder cats that is.
Well it is the internet. Anthropomorphic beings are usually viewed in negative light because of some of the associated fans
Egads... that thread may be the single best argument against design by committee ever. The number of times posts have stated that the game should adopt a particular position to intentionally drive people away... Who in the world wants a game designed by committee, especially when the committee is those people?
The campaign needs to make 5,295 GBP per day every day that remains, in the last week, they only broke 2,500 GBP once. Realistically, they should be throwing a furry beach party.
The thing that really boggles my mind is the 300,000 GBP funding threshold. Whaaa? What in the world justifies that price point? 300,000 GBP ($476,266) is more then twice what DFG ended up making, and it's very difficult to see where that money is going.
It's not that it's a terrible deal, it's just that you can't tell what the heck it's supposed to be.
Spoiler:
Nice graphics, nice layout, decent price point... but everything is so helter skelter...
Well it is the internet. Anthropomorphic beings are usually viewed in negative light because of some of the associated fans
Yeah I know, its just the way it is, a few "bad examples" ruin it for everyone else, same thing happens with anime, comics, sci-fi and even miniature wargames. Not really a hugh deal to me to be honest, after all if I really really wanted furry characters in my army I'll just convert/custom sculpt them, no need for a middle man.
Now the female representation thread is the part that worries me. On one hand I'm really imtrested in this project and love the idea of helping to create a miniatures game, now I can't write for the life of me, but I can draw and sculpt, so at least I'd try bring somthing to the table and be useful (maybe). But that "Tropes Versus Women" thread really sums up how I feel about joining in and the GoA community so far, its hard to describe but there just seems to be this werid "mentality" going on in the forums that I'm not clicking with, I really wish I could put it into words, sorry.
Who knows maybe its just me.
P.s go to the "Tropes Versus Women" thread that Melcavuk linked and check out the last post on page 5, go on, you can trust me....
Looks like were not getting any "furry" troops either, seems like that idea is being slowly turned against, unless it looks like thunder cats that is.
...
Argggggggh. Stupid F'ers...
Why would they want to please a fandom that would throw veritable buckets of money at them. Who wants that? Not These guys, hell no, money is for Lutherans...
There is a huge non-fetish based furry fandom out there (a fandom, incidentally, that seems to be predominantly young women), a fandom that is, to the best of my knowledge, not served by any other TT gaming line. Court them? Nah, let's make the early highlight of the campaign a human male that is the very definition of generic. Seriously, anyone want to argue there is something that would preclude using the Hansa in 40k? Infinity? Heck, Relic Knights? He's a 'stache, a big gun and a pair of reverse chaps.
Rolt wrote:
Looks like were not getting any "furry" troops either, seems like that idea is being slowly turned against, unless it looks like thunder cats that is.
Well it is the internet. Anthropomorphic beings are usually viewed in negative light because of some of the associated fans
There is a huge non-fetish based furry fandom out there (a fandom, incidentally, that seems to be predominantly young women), a fandom that is, to the best of my knowledge, not served by any other TT gaming line. Court them? Nah, let's make the early highlight of the campaign a human male that is the very definition of generic. Seriously, anyone want to argue there is something that would preclude using the Hansa in 40k? Infinity? Heck, Relic Knights? He's a 'stache, a big gun and a pair of reverse chaps.
Sigh...
You know that people read this board from work, right?
The picture is better off being removed and left with a manual link since this thread doesn't otherwise require a NSFW tag. I wouldn't want that to suddenly be in my browser cache if I were reading Dakka from work.
There is a huge non-fetish based furry fandom out there (a fandom, incidentally, that seems to be predominantly young women), a fandom that is, to the best of my knowledge, not served by any other TT gaming line. Court them? Nah, let's make the early highlight of the campaign a human male that is the very definition of generic. Seriously, anyone want to argue there is something that would preclude using the Hansa in 40k? Infinity? Heck, Relic Knights? He's a 'stache, a big gun and a pair of reverse chaps.
Sigh...
Just throw them at us, I'm happy to take people's money.
If there was enough demand for a sci-fi version of Brushfire, we'd develop it.
There is a huge non-fetish based furry fandom out there (a fandom, incidentally, that seems to be predominantly young women), a fandom that is, to the best of my knowledge, not served by any other TT gaming line. Court them? Nah, let's make the early highlight of the campaign a human male that is the very definition of generic. Seriously, anyone want to argue there is something that would preclude using the Hansa in 40k? Infinity? Heck, Relic Knights? He's a 'stache, a big gun and a pair of reverse chaps.
Sigh...
Just throw them at us, I'm happy to take people's money.
If there was enough demand for a sci-fi version of Brushfire, we'd develop it.
Hehe, true enough. Just out of curiosity, what material are Brushfire miniatures, all metal still, I presume?
Edit: Whoa! I clearly am not up on what is going on in Brushfire... Never knew that big thing even existed...
Why would they want to please a fandom that would throw veritable buckets of money at them. Who wants that? Not These guys, hell no, money is for Lutherans...
You know, I just thought about this - if Furries didn't fit the overall vision for the game, I think it'd be fair enough. The problem with this is that they apparently have little to no vision for the game, so it's devolving into "whoever yells loudest on the internet, wins!"
Why would they want to please a fandom that would throw veritable buckets of money at them. Who wants that? Not These guys, hell no, money is for Lutherans...
You know, I just thought about this - if Furries didn't fit the overall vision for the game, I think it'd be fair enough. The problem with this is that they apparently have little to no vision for the game, so it's devolving into "whoever yells loudest on the internet, wins!"
Yup. Seems to be the problem with this campaign in a nutshell. Okay, in fairness, one of the problems.
Why would they want to please a fandom that would throw veritable buckets of money at them. Who wants that? Not These guys, hell no, money is for Lutherans...
You know, I just thought about this - if Furries didn't fit the overall vision for the game, I think it'd be fair enough. The problem with this is that they apparently have little to no vision for the game, so it's devolving into "whoever yells loudest on the internet, wins!"
Yeah, but it's Dark Space Corp that pushing the monkey-men and dog-people. Is it any wonder the furries aren't that far behind?
There is a huge non-fetish based furry fandom out there (a fandom, incidentally, that seems to be predominantly young women), a fandom that is, to the best of my knowledge, not served by any other TT gaming line.
Brushfire Rodentia is pretty awesome if you want a game with anthro minis.
Either google it or PM Cyporiean if you'd like some more info, she runs the company that makes it and is very active on Dakka.
Just throw them at us, I'm happy to take people's money.
If there was enough demand for a sci-fi version of Brushfire, we'd develop it
Good point Cyp, why aren't you creating a skirmish miniatures game with furry, human and alien characters all working together fighting bizarre sci-fi monsters and robots. Well Cyp get to it.
If you ever want help with a project like that,' I'd be very interested.
There is a huge non-fetish based furry fandom out there (a fandom, incidentally, that seems to be predominantly young women), a fandom that is, to the best of my knowledge, not served by any other TT gaming line. Court them? Nah, let's make the early highlight of the campaign a human male that is the very definition of generic. Seriously, anyone want to argue there is something that would preclude using the Hansa in 40k? Infinity? Heck, Relic Knights? He's a 'stache, a big gun and a pair of reverse chaps.
Sigh...
Just throw them at us, I'm happy to take people's money.
If there was enough demand for a sci-fi version of Brushfire, we'd develop it.
Though Brushfire is already pretty steampunky:
These are decent, but not great. The proportions are all off, some figures aren't large enough, while some are way too large, the figure on the right, for example. And I don't know what's up with the mech-suit...
There is a huge non-fetish based furry fandom out there (a fandom, incidentally, that seems to be predominantly young women), a fandom that is, to the best of my knowledge, not served by any other TT gaming line. Court them? Nah, let's make the early highlight of the campaign a human male that is the very definition of generic. Seriously, anyone want to argue there is something that would preclude using the Hansa in 40k? Infinity? Heck, Relic Knights? He's a 'stache, a big gun and a pair of reverse chaps.
Sigh...
Just throw them at us, I'm happy to take people's money.
If there was enough demand for a sci-fi version of Brushfire, we'd develop it.
Hehe, true enough. Just out of curiosity, what material are Brushfire miniatures, all metal still, I presume?
Edit: Whoa! I clearly am not up on what is going on in Brushfire... Never knew that big thing even existed...
Its getting to be an even split between metal and resin, the bigger stuff is Resins and most of the smaller kits are still metal. We're slowly working towards getting away from metal. The big thing is a 'Valkyr' clockwork mech, piloted by Gerbils.
Furry faction, no some models representing humans done extreme prosthetic surgery, yes, even then there is only a single unit that could really be described close to furrie.
If all Nomads, or indeed any faction were all "furries" the point of an individual going to the extreme (something like somebody going to extreme tattoo/ piercing at present day) as are the Bakunin moderators or Chimeras would be lost and it would simple be something normal and mundane.
Now can anthropomorphic factions exist in any setting or indeed wargame? yes, question is how soft or hard one wants the setting to be.
Gate of Antares, despite my positive comments here has an identity crisis to the outside observer and does not give enough information to were it wants to head,
There is a huge non-fetish based furry fandom out there (a fandom, incidentally, that seems to be predominantly young women), a fandom that is, to the best of my knowledge, not served by any other TT gaming line.
Brushfire Rodentia is pretty awesome if you want a game with anthro minis.
Either google it or PM Cyporiean if you'd like some more info, she runs the company that makes it and is very active on Dakka.
Oh, you misunderstand, it's less an interest in an as yet unfilled desire of mine, as pointing out that given the funding needs of Beyond, it's folly to turn away anyone.
They aren't at the "Priestly is turning tricks* in the alley" stage, but they are not looking good for actually funding this.
*I'm not sure if that idiom exists outside of the US, "turning tricks" is a somewhat older slang for engaging in acts of prostitution.
Its getting to be an even split between metal and resin, the bigger stuff is Resins and most of the smaller kits are still metal. We're slowly working towards getting away from metal. The big thing is a 'Valkyr' clockwork mech, piloted by Gerbils.
to me there is a difference between taking fan feedback on what people want sculpted... and asking for fan feedback AND MONEY before doing any sculpting 
. I'd love to give feedback to a company on what they put out- but I'm not going to pay in advance sight unseen, for concepts that might change, not even based on art, etc. With this project I would have less of an idea of what I'd be getting for my money than any other project I've backed.
