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Made in ie
Fixture of Dakka






I really hope they don't go the space dwarfs route with the Boramites as the mining colonists type set up is something I'm very interested in and forms a good chunk of my 500 credits but not if they are a dwarf race - in fact it could be a deal breaker for me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/12 11:08:32


 
   
Made in de
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Augsburg/Germany

The times I do explode are not many, but after reading the last page it is about time... So excuse the rant, but it is well-deserved.

And they should have sculpted everything first, and had the rules complete. And they should have set a really small funding goal, like $10,000, to fund the ltd ed figure. And then stretch goals every 10k to "unlock" models that were already sculpted and scheduled to be released anyway. But only as add-ons. And then we could all be complaining that it was a preorder.


I don´t attack the above poster, he only put it all together conveniently and this makes it easier for me to tackle the bullets.

Sorry, but why oh why, does it seem that with guite some gamers there is only place for one concept within their mind? What the above quote describes is ONE possible way of doing it and not THE way of doing it. Read again what it says on the mission statement of the kickstarter page and you will find out that they are interested in seeing kickstarts developed in many different ways, depending on the kickstarter.

The above quote works fine with a board game that really does suffer when it is not fully developed and presented, but this thing is much more cpmplex and a simple approach does not do it justice?

> Sculpted?

Great idea when it is your basic idea that the gamers should be drawn in to decide what they want to be sculpted. So on the one hand many complain that GW does not listen what the gamers want and when one company starts to listen to them and asks them and sculpts the mninis they want then suddenly they were too lazu to sculpt something in advance?

> Rules complete?

If I do complain abot something, then I at least try to inform myself abot the topic I complain about. But that seems to be below them for quite some... The core rules are complete as stated on the forums, but they are still open for discussion and in case playtesting finds out that something does not work out it is going to be changed. So the basic skeleton is there, at the moment wer are fleshing it out with the parts we gamers want to see in the game. Oh, and don´t try it with: They should have playtested it to death before going public. As a game designer I do know that you can playtest as much as you want, one guy somwhere still will find a loophole you never even imagined. So only a full-blown field test will really do justice to some rules and guess what they are deoing from April and September on?

> 10.000 funding goal?

A white lie is still a white lie. Noone can start such a project with 10.000. 300.000 is the real number you need to achieve and I applaud them for being quite honest with it. Yeah, some TT KS do have such low goals, but If you ask them how much they really needed to get the thing running, then it quickly rises to six digit numbers. Also, according to my knowledge no TT of this scale has been realised on KS up until now. It was either board games, add-ons to existing lines or very small skirmish-systems, but now full-blown sf-tt like GoA.

> 10k stretch goals for KS minis

And with what money they would have funded the book, the infrastructure for the online meta-game, the forms for the miniatures, the money they have to pay Warlord Games for distribution. Folks, get real! KS minis are nice, but not so nice if you can´t fund the stuff you really need for the game.

Also having only one limited mini is quite a good idea, this way even those folks that die not participate in the KS do not have to worry about a deluge of rare minis they would love to field but can´t (or even worse, they would need it to make their faction working, as happnede with some other games in the past).

You mean the discussion that reached consensus on a grizzled veteran à la Han Solo or Mal Reynolds, the polar opposite of the armoured cyborg brute we're getting? That discussion?


Than we do read different forums. And if you would have read the fluff going with his faction you would know that he is not a cyborg but that this stuff on his body is part of the technology his faction uses.

They were called on their bs and they backed down. Call me crazy but I'm not sure that qualifies as a game-changer.


Oh, it is so convenient if you can put it the wy you want. The way I remember it we got asked what we wanted and after quite some discussions most of us agreed on something. Now calling this them backing away from their plan is really opportunistic. You claim they do not listen to the gamers and then you when they do listen you call them away-backers? Man, what do you want! Either decide to be on one side of the fence or the other, but don´t jump over it all the time. It´s those fencejumpers that I really hate.

It's the same design system we've seen over and over again, with the same illusion of input from the punters beyond serving as brainstorming monkeys. But now with regular internet polls. Woo. Hoo.


Again, one the one hand complaining about big GW not doing justice to their promises and when someone starts to change something about it they are the same as GW. Ye olde fencejumper again...
They already explained how it works and this system for a change does work since it already works in computer games, which surprise, surprise, one of the guys working for this company had to do with when working on computer games. They only need to transfer it to TTs.

That is certainly an interesting concept, but unfortunately doesn't mesh well with me paying £190/AU$300 (which would otherwise probably be my "most wanted" level) for unseen models. Design-by-committee doesn't inspire confidence.


Read the whole thread on their forum and you will find out that the picture has to do nothing with the direction the concept goes. Also, the sketches where only a first idea what could be possible. They present us with some fluff and pictures and we decide if we like them or not. That´s at least something we can start from and not working in empty space. Btw. most people can´t really express what they want, only what they don´t want. This forum is the best example for my claim.

And one last thing:

Some folks are willing to risk quite some money with some guys that already have tanked a company before and robbed people of their money only because they present some new shiny renders and some guys that have delievered quality work over the course of 3 decades, have always been very nice when spoken to in public, have been quite helpful when it came to problems with their games rules, have an stellar reputation when it comes to keeping their promises, those guys are less trustworthy than the first guys. If that really should be the case then something really is wrong in the state of TT-Denmark!

There are way more risky KS out there and the one that really has some guys that always delivered gets ridiculed as being untrustworthy? How long do you now wait for some of the KS stuff from some companies that got quite hyped with less credentials to their name. In one case I can remember it is one year already....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/12 11:10:36


André Winter
L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio 
   
Made in au
Incorporating Wet-Blending






Australia

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
I don´t attack the above poster, he only put it all together conveniently and this makes it easier for me to tackle the bullets.

Sorry, but why oh why, does it seem that with guite some gamers there is only place for one concept within their mind? What the above quote describes is ONE possible way of doing it and not THE way of doing it.

What the quote describes is a strawman. I suggested that the "ask for fan feedback to finalise the concept sketches" step should have come before the "asking for money" step instead of after, so that anyone pledging wouldn't have to worry about the rug being swept out from under them when the cat people are replaced with dog people, and Doug responded with that rant.

They were called on their bs and they backed down. Call me crazy but I'm not sure that qualifies as a game-changer.

Oh, it is so convenient if you can put it the wy you want. The way I remember it we got asked what we wanted and after quite some discussions most of us agreed on something. Now calling this them backing away from their plan is really opportunistic. You claim they do not listen to the gamers and then you when they do listen you call them away-backers?

DSC's plans were never for hard science fiction - from the start, they were talking about a universe where humans have replicators and bigger-on-the-inside TARDIS tech, awkwardly stapled around a skirmish game. The background hasn't changed, they've just stopped using the factually untrue claim that it makes sense.

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis 
   
Made in de
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Augsburg/Germany

I don´t attack the above poster, he only put it all together conveniently and this makes it easier for me to tackle the bullets.


READ my posts please in FULL!

Ahrg...

DSC's plans were never for hard science fiction - from the start, they were talking about a universe where humans have replicators and bigger-on-the-inside TARDIS tech, awkwardly stapled around a skirmish game. The background hasn't changed, they've just stopped using the factually untrue claim that it makes sense.


Please don´t mix up what some people in the forums write/want and what the team itself wrote. Also read the "definition of what is hard SF" thread.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/12 12:05:50


André Winter
L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

I'm actually shocked that this is still pulling in £2K a day. Already only trending to 120%, it will likely drop below a 100% trend soon imo.

They need sculpts (or at least decent art), and they need them badly...

And Duncan, before I get bullet-pointed to death to me there is a difference between taking fan feedback on what people want sculpted... and asking for fan feedback AND MONEY before doing any sculpting . I'd love to give feedback to a company on what they put out- but I'm not going to pay in advance sight unseen, for concepts that might change, not even based on art, etc. With this project I would have less of an idea of what I'd be getting for my money than any other project I've backed.

You can go a long way on a clear idea, a few sculpts, and lots of concept art. But to have little to no art, no sculpts, and not even a clear idea... it is Not unfair to say that this is a Much riskier Kickstarter than most. Riskier than any I've seen, really, because while they may well deliver, What they will deliver is highly unknown at this point (and seemingly will remain that way "by design" throughout the campaign).

So, there's a difference between taking fan feedback, and asking fans to Fund (not just provide feedback on) things that are still in the early concept stages, imo.
   
Made in de
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Augsburg/Germany

Sorry, why should some people that have nearly all their life delivered on their promises sudenly stop doing so?

And why do some quite more quacky people get money thrown after them?

I guess I know the answer... but it does not bode well for other aspects of life.

Actually we do have sketches and minis of what the sculptors/artists have done in the past on a regular basis. And please explain to me again how a mini that is developed with the community supposed to have greens and sketches in advance?

The project itself is quite advanced when it comes to the core, but now the fleshing out is needed.

On the other hand, there is a difference between pure consumers and people that create something.

André Winter
L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





IL

There's nothing about the kickstater that holds my interests. In general I love Kevin's sculpts but despite his amazing talent I'd like to see actual pieces for the game particuarly if they have near or non-human factions. Just because an artist might be a sculpting god does not mean that I am going to love a particular faction's design. There's no strong concept art showing any sort of broader range, to the artist the quick sketches can be meaningful but for those who aren't inside the artists head they look like scribbles on a dinner napkin.

No sampling of sculpts or range of artwork means there's no visual excitement to be had, making it very hard to sell your ideas. If you were trying to propse a building developement to a group of investors you'd have lots of concept art and maybe some scale models set up. Giving them a pile of blue prints and bulllet pointed lists won't sell the design, you need to make them "see" your idea and I think that where BGoA is falling short.

I threw in for Sedition Wars and Zombicide because I had lots of visuals to help me get inside the headspace of the game designers. There were pictures of enough models that i could establish as base line of what the range would look like and project what the unfinished pieces would look like. It was a bit of a shot in the dark on the rules end, but based on how complete their artistic vision was I didn't think they could drop the ball too badly.

I love sci fi games and I'd like to contribute but nothing about this seems particuarly organized and confident. It gives the feeling of a limp handshake and that's not good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/12 13:35:16


Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth






Shadeglass Maze

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Sorry, why should some people that have nearly all their life delivered on their promises sudenly stop doing so?

Underlined the part where I addressed this

 RiTides wrote:
And Duncan, before I get bullet-pointed to death to me there is a difference between taking fan feedback on what people want sculpted... and asking for fan feedback AND MONEY before doing any sculpting . I'd love to give feedback to a company on what they put out- but I'm not going to pay in advance sight unseen, for concepts that might change, not even based on art, etc. With this project I would have less of an idea of what I'd be getting for my money than any other project I've backed.

You can go a long way on a clear idea, a few sculpts, and lots of concept art. But to have little to no art, no sculpts, and not even a clear idea... it is Not unfair to say that this is a Much riskier Kickstarter than most. Riskier than any I've seen, really, because while they may well deliver, What they will deliver is highly unknown at this point (and seemingly will remain that way "by design" throughout the campaign).

I'm not saying they won't deliver Something. I'm saying that what that "something" is a big unknown. You can point to past work as to their abilities, but that doesn't mean that whatever they make (and I'm sure they'll do a good job of it) is going to line up with what I want to buy.

For example, the above poster who is interested in the mining colonies (?) but not if they're dwarfs. When I buy / pledge towards a faction of a particular game, I like to have at least a general idea of what that faction is / will look like / etc!
   
Made in de
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Augsburg/Germany

Initial Figure List

Now that we have the initial figure listings posted I thought I'd just explain, especially for those who were eager to see how we were doing with the Vorl and Sims, how we arived at the initial list. I'd also like to stress that is IS the initial list, and in fact I've already drawn up a fairly extensive listing that covers additional models - including Vorl and Sims as well as much else.

With our target of 300K we figured out we could make about 50 models in all - with a mix of relatively simply single piece models, more complex multi-pieces with alternate parts, and character sculpts and larger models. Given that, we have concentrated out efforts to produce a first wave of models that covers as many bases as we can, primarily Revers and Pan types that can be used in all five human factions (which could be four as I am aiming to meld the Freebooters together - not quite worked that out yet). That's enough to provide sufficient troop types to produce a playable game with enough pose variation so that units can take on a varied appearance. I thought we should include at least some NuHu to start with as they are pivotal to two of the factions and also to the back story.

So - the Sims and Vorl are awaiting progress with the kickstarter or will become a priority once we are trading - depending on how well we do with the kickstarter and what finds are available. It is plainly impossible to do everything at once, and so we have cut our cloth accordingly.

Amongst the Sims and Vorl planned are some already mentioned as examples in our custom credit system - and these are - of course - included to give you an idea of what the various credit levels amount to. If we can get past our initial target then we can start to expand out the range.

André Winter
L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio 
   
Made in au
Incorporating Wet-Blending






Australia

With our target of 300K we figured out we could make about 50 models in all - with a mix of relatively simply single piece models, more complex multi-pieces with alternate parts, and character sculpts and larger models.

And I'll say again: that's not good value for your Kickstarter dollar. There's a reason kickstarters for metals are usually so cheap, and it's because the up-front costs for metal are low. Even if we allocate $150,000 for the wardrones and $50,000 for the rules, that's still $6,000 per 28mm metal model added to the line.

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis 
   
Made in gb
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor





UK

 AlexHolker wrote:
With our target of 300K we figured out we could make about 50 models in all - with a mix of relatively simply single piece models, more complex multi-pieces with alternate parts, and character sculpts and larger models.

And I'll say again: that's not good value for your Kickstarter dollar. There's a reason kickstarters for metals are usually so cheap, and it's because the up-front costs for metal are low. Even if we allocate $150,000 for the wardrones and $50,000 for the rules, that's still $6,000 per 28mm metal model added to the line.


I'm not sure how much having the living universe system online costs and the custom hansa.

Soon his foes would learn that the only thing more dangerous than a savage three hundred pound brute is a savage three hundred pound brute with a plan - Ork Codex

30K Imperial Fist Progress
Tale of 6 Gamers - 30K

I've recently started taking on commissions, if you'd like to talk a project over feel free to PM me here, or find me at:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BasiliskStudios
Email: Basilisk.Studios@yahoo.co.uk 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





IL

 AlexHolker wrote:
There's a reason kickstarters for metals are usually so cheap, and it's because the up-front costs for metal are low. Even if we allocate $150,000 for the wardrones and $50,000 for the rules, that's still $6,000 per 28mm metal model added to the line.


It depends if they are calculating the cost of spincasting equipment into that. A typical 32mm model will likely cost around $1,000 to have sculpted and molded (maybe $1,500 if factor in a top end artist) However a commercial grade metal spin caster is likely going to run 16-20k by itself (and they still need to buy melters and vulcanizers). If they want a good size production capacity they will need several, 3-4 machines can easily eat up as much as a third of their projected 300k goal.


You can get second hand equipment cheaper but that's not something you want to gamble on if you are launching a large scale venture. Outsourcing the casting works but costs more, and leaves you dependant on the other company which might lead to supply issues. Which is why when Privateer started up they opted to do casting in house.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/01/12 15:40:02


Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

I wish they had chosen some actual diversity in their model range. "Futuristic humans" is the last thing they need to stand out from the crowd, especially since Kev White already sculpts two different competing lines.

Honestly, I was hoping for something different. Every idea they seem to throw out there becomes less interesting. Simians? Sure, let's hit that saturated market. Cat people? That won't put this company in an uncomfortable niche! Future humans? Someone has to try and sell some, might as well be us and 100 other companies. Robots that look like transformers rejects? That's what's hot right now!

   
Made in gb
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

Ok missed a few things while I was sleeping!

Firstly, gameplay video - definitely looks interesting and as a friend of mine commented, very flowing. The interrupt mechanic doesn't look as stop-start as something like Infinity (which it gets away with because of the small miniature count) but perhaps something more like Starship Troopers? Personally I like the look of this as being done at a 'squad level' (like Ambush Alley/Tomorrow's War) rather than something like 40k which sits uneasily between the mechanics for a skirmish level game and one being done at squad/platoon level.

And Hansa Part 3, don't know if anyone else has posted this yet?

++EDIT++ And guys, the whole purpose of this KS having a 2-month run time was so that feedback could be put forward regarding design concepts, and the way the game works. So far the people who have pledged the money to this KS are the ones who like the concept of its background, the idea of helping develop the universe on their forums, and perhaps the idea of an evolving real-time universe. This isn't the same as the kind of KS which works to get funding for a miniature line already largely created, but I would expect the amount pledged to go up a great deal once the first completed greens/concepts are posted, the first alpha-versions of the rules and also trial online-episodes are revealed (which, from what I gather, should all be during the course of this Kickstarter).

I think a lot of complaint here is from people who don't fully understand the targets and method plan that has been put forward for GoA.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/12 17:34:24


Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
 
   
Made in be
Dakar




Brussels

Many people are forgetting what kickstarter originally stood for.

Kickstarter isn't a pre-order service =) IMHO this is one of the most real wargaming kickstarter projects i've seen sofar.

Kickstarting a game that already has a range of models and rules...is actually missing the point of kickstarter, what doesn't mean it's a great way of expanding the range and income.

 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Nottingham

Hi everyone

I wanted to post here before I did anything else this evening

We know we're doing something a little different from the other table top guys, and hats off to them for wisely using Kickstarter in a way that's beneficial to them. Kickstarter can be utilised in many different ways, and one of the ways is to get new ideas off the ground that wouldn't normally get the chance, which is what our kickstarter is all about.

We know that not everyone will buy in or even like the idea, but we're on KS so that we can find out. We put a long time frame on our KS so that we could adapt if we needed to and of course, because we're asking for so much money. The 300k is the minimum required to create a game (from where we are) with a decent enough miniature range which is of great quality - we ran the numbers a billion times to make sure. We thought about doing it the 20k route, but that would have meant that we couldn't have legally gone onto KS and offered the whole range of rewards that we have, which would have reduced us to simply offering the book until we got there and then only offering a couple of miniatures per stretch, all of which, we thought, would completely hamper our ability to hit the 300k we actually needed to make the game. So we put the min at 300 so that if it does come off (and fingers crossed there!) we get to make the great game we have planned.

We would have loved to have more concepts and miniatures out there, but we just didn't have the money in order to pay for that. All of the people involved have worked the last 5 months without getting paid - and I'm not complaining here, I'm happy to bet my life on things I believe in - so regardless of how much time we'll applied to GoA we still wouldn't have had more things to show. So we did a deal with a very kind company who said they would lend us some money to start paying some sculptors and artists, but they wanted it launched and wanted to see how it would go first. I'm happy to say they lent us the money, so we started Kev and a number of others off in order to respond to the feedback we've been having and hopefully gather some more pace on KS. It's not much money, but if we use it wisely it's hopefully enough to cover some of the main concerns and get us funded.

We get lots of comments saying we should just put more concepts out, and we do have the option of rushing things out, but to be honest, we're not really into that. We don't think you'll respond well to us doing that anyway, so we're trying to make sure that we do it right, which unfortunately just takes a little time. We do have things in the pipe now that we hope will impress and have some great updates coming through that will show you what we've been up to and give everyone the chance to play the pre-alpha game (by the end of next week if all goes to plan!) as we know that’s a big concern to some people too.

Ultimately we're in your hands, if you decide you'd like to be part of GoA then thank you, we truly appreciate your support. If not, no worries, thanks for reading this anyway, please remember that we're just a small company right now, we're only human and we're trying our hardest to make this successful.

Right then, next update here I come

Rik

 
   
Made in gr
Thermo-Optical Spekter





Greece

Personally, I understand and feel this is how kickstarter can (should?) be used in its purest form.

I am more interested in the potential of this and what it will mean by succeeding that the little details of it, I understand that from a design perspective the miniatures are not really important, that is important are the rules, internal and external balance and the "fluff", the miniatures and artwork are the least important thing, the most time consuming and expensive, but also what people are drawn into.

   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




For anyones whos intrested theres a "Game Rules - Actions Explanation Video" just been added to the update section of the KS page. BTW thanks for the post Rik, would love to see this project be sucessful, hopefully the pleages will pick up a bit as the updates flow in.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/12 21:58:26


 
   
Made in au
Unstoppable Bloodthirster of Khorne





Melbourne .au

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:

On the other hand, there is a difference between pure consumers and people that create something.


Oh Duncan. You make me laugh so. Your "game designers can do no wrong/I hate the punters" mentality is always good for a laugh when I see your otherwise-ignored posts through someone else quoting you.


 paulson games wrote:

I love sci fi games and I'd like to contribute but nothing about this seems particuarly organized and confident. It gives the feeling of a limp handshake and that's not good.


That's because you're a pure consumer. Not someone who creates anything!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AlexHolker wrote:
With our target of 300K we figured out we could make about 50 models in all - with a mix of relatively simply single piece models, more complex multi-pieces with alternate parts, and character sculpts and larger models.

And I'll say again: that's not good value for your Kickstarter dollar. There's a reason kickstarters for metals are usually so cheap, and it's because the up-front costs for metal are low. Even if we allocate $150,000 for the wardrones and $50,000 for the rules, that's still $6,000 per 28mm metal model added to the line.


It's 300K UKP. That's US$483K.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/12 23:38:26


   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy



Dirty Jersey

Finally managed to get off my bum and manually enter my cc information! I bet if every time you had wanted to pledge if you had to enter your cc number that people would not be as quick to pledge.

Im in at the feeder level which is a nice little chunk of change for me. I have wanted to pledge since day one but i was lazy to put in that info i admit.

Watching the game play videos i am very pleased of how the mechanics of the game are starting to shape up. I have been looking for a game that maxes out around 30-40 miniatures to give it that fire fight /escalating skirmish type of feel of a game.

And I agree with most of the people that are scared they did not see many concepts and fear that they may be pledging blind. That is all understandable but as it was explained to us just now i figured that they have a very small budget to begin with so they weren't able to fully put into action what they wanted to show us without further funding.

Do i think it would of been better to start low/minimal and start adding factions as stretches? Not too sure though it would of seemed great at least we know from the start that if we do hit the goal that we will get a load of variety in miniatures from almost all of the mentioned factions.

Even if you pledge a minimum to add some input on the kickstarter why not go for it? You can always retract your bid if things are not how you wanted them to be after all its still a month and change away till finish. If you dont have any more room why not contribute via the forums hey maybe they will add something in there that you really like and then decide its worth pledging.

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Made in au
Unstoppable Bloodthirster of Khorne





Melbourne .au

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Personally, I understand and feel this is how kickstarter can (should?) be used in its purest form.

I am more interested in the potential of this and what it will mean by succeeding that the little details of it, I understand that from a design perspective the miniatures are not really important, that is important are the rules, internal and external balance and the "fluff", the miniatures and artwork are the least important thing, the most time consuming and expensive, but also what people are drawn into.



I agree that it is a very "pure" kickstarter. From a design perspective the miniatures may not be that important, but when you're asking people to take a £200 leap of faith, well, most of that £200 is for miniatures. Otherwise it'd be for £30 and £50 books. I'd also argue that the aesthetics of the miniatures are more important then the fluff. I care more about good models than pages of fanfic about cat people, monkey people, or the latest round of biotech humans. I just can't justify one of the larger pledges with unseen models that could be anything at this stage. I can perhaps justify a basic rulebook under the heading of "support Rick Priestly". The fact that this is as much as I can justify to myself at this stage is a real shame.

   
Made in de
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Augsburg/Germany

Scipio, game designers can do a lot wrong and you should hear me rant when some crashes his company due to pure stupidity or financial ignorance.

BUT: I have too much a practical background in diverse fields that I can ignore statements that are absolutly wrong.

And noone asks you to pledge 200 pounds, pledge as much as you want and pledge more or less until the KS ends.

What I really don´t get is that quite some people that complain all day on Dakka, suddenly get the chance to change something but then don´t do anything or even deride it because it means change.

I don´t have problems with people that are not interested in the KS. But I do have problems with people that more or less openly want this KS to fail. And there are some in this thread.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/13 00:19:30


André Winter
L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio 
   
Made in gb
Foolproof Falcon Pilot





Livingston, United Kingdom

For those crunching the numbers: I expect that the funding goal includes setting the company up - an office, staff costs, etc.

It is good that the company have noticed the desire for more information, and are trying to accommodate. I can imagine that they are between a rock and a hard place, so it is good that they are managing to come through and help the KS with some solid information and whatnot. As others have said, it is a 'pure' kickstarter; but that still doesn't mean that people don't want to know what it is that they are getting...
   
Made in gb
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

Quite an interesting poll at the moment on how morale/unit breaking will function.

At the moment a mixed system, with damage determining fighting effectiveness of 'machine' type units, and 'morale' for organics seemingly quite popular

 scipio.au wrote:
 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Personally, I understand and feel this is how kickstarter can (should?) be used in its purest form.

I am more interested in the potential of this and what it will mean by succeeding that the little details of it, I understand that from a design perspective the miniatures are not really important, that is important are the rules, internal and external balance and the "fluff", the miniatures and artwork are the least important thing, the most time consuming and expensive, but also what people are drawn into.



I agree that it is a very "pure" kickstarter. From a design perspective the miniatures may not be that important, but when you're asking people to take a £200 leap of faith, well, most of that £200 is for miniatures. Otherwise it'd be for £30 and £50 books. I'd also argue that the aesthetics of the miniatures are more important then the fluff. I care more about good models than pages of fanfic about cat people, monkey people, or the latest round of biotech humans. I just can't justify one of the larger pledges with unseen models that could be anything at this stage. I can perhaps justify a basic rulebook under the heading of "support Rick Priestly". The fact that this is as much as I can justify to myself at this stage is a real shame.


We know. You've posted this at least 17 times now in the thread now, to the point where it's not so much you've told everyone, but more like a Vinnie-special 2-legged tackle to the rear . While we are not at 'Kroothawk in a Mantic thread' stage yet, you're getting dangerously close

Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
 
   
Made in de
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Augsburg/Germany

Game Rules - Combat Status Explanation Video


Happy sunday everyone!

Following on from our gameplay and unit actions videos, here Rick's going to run you through the Combat Status mechanic and how it affects gameplay.

Once you've seen it why not head over to the forums to tell us what you think

http://vimeo.com/57253737

André Winter
L'Art Noir - Game Design and Translation Studio 
   
Made in au
Unstoppable Bloodthirster of Khorne





Melbourne .au

 Pacific wrote:

We know. You've posted this at least 17 times now in the thread now, to the point where it's not so much you've told everyone, but more like a Vinnie-special 2-legged tackle to the rear . While we are not at 'Kroothawk in a Mantic thread' stage yet, you're getting dangerously close


The gist of it (before I repeated myself) was that I disagree that the miniatures are less important from a design perspective than the "fluff". In the Good Old Days (tm) of GW, the sculptors made cool models and the rules guys made rules for them based on the models. Fluff can be nice when it's well done, but the aesthetics of the models is far more important.

Duncan - the thing is I actually would like to pledge £200 for the "sweet spot". With apologies to Pacific, there's just not enough on show for me to do so at this stage. Which is why this KS makes me sad.

   
Made in gb
Foolproof Falcon Pilot





Livingston, United Kingdom

 Pacific wrote:
Quite an interesting poll at the moment on how morale/unit breaking will function.

At the moment a mixed system, with damage determining fighting effectiveness of 'machine' type units, and 'morale' for organics seemingly quite popular



I get the impression from Rick's replies that it will likely remain the same for both types for the moment - I've heard 'compute' rather than 'morale' being the term for inorganics. Of course, this is likely to change during beta testing if people prefer two different kinds.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Rik, don't know if I've missed this somewhere, but could you explain what the "Big Bang Reward Tier" is about that is mentioned at the Singularity level, please?

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in gr
Thermo-Optical Spekter





Greece

 scipio.au wrote:
 Pacific wrote:

We know. You've posted this at least 17 times now in the thread now, to the point where it's not so much you've told everyone, but more like a Vinnie-special 2-legged tackle to the rear . While we are not at 'Kroothawk in a Mantic thread' stage yet, you're getting dangerously close


The gist of it (before I repeated myself) was that I disagree that the miniatures are less important from a design perspective than the "fluff". In the Good Old Days (tm) of GW, the sculptors made cool models and the rules guys made rules for them based on the models. Fluff can be nice when it's well done, but the aesthetics of the models is far more important.

Duncan - the thing is I actually would like to pledge £200 for the "sweet spot". With apologies to Pacific, there's just not enough on show for me to do so at this stage. Which is why this KS makes me sad.


And that for me is a fundamental flaw in the entire GW ecosystem Models > Fluff> Rules is the wrong way to go, Rules > Fluff > Models is the correct way to have a balanced functioning ecosystem were the background is correct and consistent and trust me any decent concept artist and miniature sculptor can make a great model from an established rules and background, making a great model and then figuring our how to stick it to the established fluff and rules needs a master game designer to pull it off and even then it is really hard to do so.

In my belief of course when you want to establish an IP and an ecosystem, the models is the least you need to worry, hire decent sculptors, have an established background for the concept artist to work with and its a really short time you need until you have them in your hands, on the other hand, to making the background and rules stand for themselves and above the competition is both time consuming and more industrious because you set everything the artist needs to work from.

If the models were the focal point of this kickstarter, like every other model oriented kickstarter a loose background, or no background at all would be needed and a concept for each miniature unlocked at each level would be available.
   
Made in gb
Araqiel



London, UK

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:


What I really don´t get is that quite some people that complain all day on Dakka, suddenly get the chance to change something but then don´t do anything or even deride it because it means change.

I don´t have problems with people that are not interested in the KS. But I do have problems with people that more or less openly want this KS to fail. And there are some in this thread.



@Duncan,

People on this Forum have the choice to make a change to the current state of the hobby. If they are unhappy with GWs pricing structure, processes and figure quality, then they should do something. Show a vote of no confidence in GW's management with their wallets and STOP BUYING TOYS, as an organisation GW are getting to the point where hard core gamers re really questioning if they can justify the costs involved in making ongoing purchases when the costs keep going up for no appreciable reason other than GW's greed and policy of alienating older gamers and not supporting them.

The trouble with that is, people won't stop buying toys, they will maybe buy less of them, which puts GW in a position where in order to make the same amount of money for its shareholders they need to charge more to generate the same level of profit.

Sadly, no-one seems to have told the bean counters that if they reduced the prices, people would return to the hobby and buy more toys, ah well....

As for the KS

I don't think anyone here actually wants to see this KS fail, there's just an awful lot of things that they are doing that seem a bit half @rsed and badly thought out. Look at it form a purely sales perspective here. "We've got this great idea for a game, its going to be Sci-Fi, small to medium scale with a full new miniature line, we want the public to help drive the story arc" Sounds awesome so far, so show me some models or some concept sketches, excite me.... Ah, we can only show you stuff that our sculptor has done for other people? And that cool alien is a conversion/hodgepodge of stuff from other companies figs" Its not a particuarly convincing sales approach...

They are drip feeding stuff to the "investing" public now, but they've missed out on the initial buzz and thats putting them into a bad position. The stuff they are putting out now is ok'ish, but still not enough to get a mini junkie like me frothing at the mouth and getting my wallet out.

The updates have been few and far between and for something that is taking ideas and suggestions from the buying public aren't great, they are asking for our engagement and then NOT engaging with us.

This is why I think a lot of people are giving them such short shrift, we've seen other kickstarters go stellar, and this just isn't ticking those boxes right now.

Is Rik likely to produce an exciting and interesting games system, yes, clearly.
Can Kev sculpt cool and exciting mini's, yes.

Two ticks in boxes, nice, well done, however, don't tell me what you are going to do, show me. If they went to a bank with the pitch they put onto kickstarter, even with the pedigree of Rik, they would have been laughed out of the place and told to come back when they had some better information and more of a plan.

I hope it works, as I think that the hobby space is crying out for a new Sci-Fi system with a well thought out and beautifully crafted background, I just don't believe that at the moment this delivers.

Have I pledged, yes.

Do I believe I will have to make good on that pledge? Sadly not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/13 14:47:26


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