Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I think Rick just needs to talk to mark at dreamforge games, Rick help make a killer system for the amazing minis mark already has, and mark already has the background fleshed out. This tag team would kill GW overnight.

I'd like to echo the sentiment expressed above.

Starting with that 'stache. DAMN. It's cool. The Hansa figure is looking great and it was a nifty idea to get lots of feedback to guide the dude's development.

But with regards to the whole KS project as funding an idea that would then get fleshed out... I hope this will be a learning experience for the B'GoA team. KS projects that succeed are full of eye candy, and tangible stretch goals.

The example that comes to mind is the recent Kingdom Death boardgame that, even prior to posting *any* gameplay information broke into the top 10 boardgames funded. I can only assume that this was based on the quality of the miniatures, of which there were lots of examples, art, and computer mock-ups. The KD guy had been touting his figure line for a few years, and had a (modest perhaps?) reputation for some oddball but really cool figures - but importantly he had product to show off. And when he posted gameplay videos for IMHO a rather bland game, the KS project blew up, more than *doubling* the next highest boardgame's take! The Reaper Bones KS is another good example: they weren't even selling rules (though you eventually got a set through the nutty stretch goals), just minis! The Reaper KS became such a crazy good deal, that it became foolish to not buy in and the snowball effect was nutty!

So Rick et al.: If this doesn't work out, do come back. But come back armed with lots of eye candy. Eye candy goes a long way to selling your product. If you get us a great ruleset along with the nifty miniatures, all the better!

I ended up pledging for 65 GBP, and will be disappointed if it doesn't make its goals, but really do hope the team processes our feedback and comes back with some figures to show off. It's often the miniatures that sell the game, not the rules (yes, lousy rules are a turn off, but I have enough faith in the team to know they likely won't put out lousy rules)

I don't think there's any need to pull pledges. Might as well stay in and get updates right to the end.

But yeah, it pains me to see this flat-lining. I think they overestimated the pull of their star power. I can't deny that they had really very little tangible to show people. And it's not as if there's exactly a dearth of decent games right now...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To echo pancakeonions... you need to appeal to a large audience to really succeed.

Cool models and visuals: Appealing to 90% of your audience.
Background Fluff: Appealing to 30% of your audience.
Game Mechanics: Appealing to 10% of your audience.

And they're spending time and effort marketing the game mechanics. Which is only to be expected from a group of designers, I guess, but still - that's not what's going to grab the mass market appeal they need for that kind of money.

pancakeonions wrote:
So Rick et al.: If this doesn't work out, do come back. But come back armed with lots of eye candy. Eye candy goes a long way to selling your product. If you get us a great ruleset along with the nifty miniatures, all the better!

100% agree with this. While great world/rules/etc. will make people stay, first you need eye candy to get people there. I'm an illustrator for comics, and always see the gut reaction of the visuals, followed by people eventually getting in to the story, if they stay.

Yes, I don't think anyone would argue with that sentiment.

GoA has some wonderful ideas, it would be a shame to see them put to bed permanently.

I think the issue is its a kickstarter that wants to shape a system and a world, while people do not want to shape a system and a wall, but see nice eye candy.

I am assuming if and when concept art and maybe greens appear it may get a big rush of backers.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I think the issue is its a kickstarter that wants to shape a system and a world, while people do not want to shape a system and a wall, but see nice eye candy.

I am assuming if and when concept art and maybe greens appear it may get a big rush of backers.

Frankly, it goes beyond "eye-candy" vs. "help-shape-the-system" (which is denigrating the successful past Kickstarter in ways they don't deserve).

There are, I believe, intrinsic limits to a full-blown "grass-roots-build-system".

Kickstarters like Kingdom Death took off not only because of the eye-candy (though I am sure it helped). Kingdom Death took off because it genuinely offered a highly unique, compelling vision of a world, a miniature line and a game with a strong internal coherency that "people-didn't-even-know-they-wanted", combined with a cooperative monster-slaying game-idea that, likewise, was (and is) fresh and has no current equivalent.


Seriously, just as a test. Go and watch the first two minutes of the Kingdom Death Kickstarter video. Than watch the first two minutes of the GoA Kickstarter video. Than tell me again who is selling "hot air without depth".

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”
- Henry Ford

The same goes for most other successful KS. If you had made a poll early last year, would you have thought there'd be a million dollars in a skirmish game with Anime/Soda-Pop aesthetics? That a cutsy-WWII-game like Rivet Wars could take off like that?

There is coherency of vision, spleen and love for the "off-the-beaten-tracks" in all of those that you will never, ever be able to recreate in a grass-root-driven-campaign.

That is why, IMO, a fundamental flaw in the very idea of trying to grow it all, conceptually, from the crowd. The result will inevitably be less divisive than things like Relic Knights or Kingdom Death. But it will also be less compelling.

Not necessarily "the lowest common denominator", but still prone to having "outside-the-box" ideas being shot down by a "hating" minority (and frankly, 90% of the talk on the GoA forums is about what they do NOT want, rather than what they want, and a lot of it feels more like "fixing 40K", not like "let's create something truly new").

GoA doesn't need just "eye-candy". It needs an aesthetic core of design and vision, from which people may or may not fork off some community/fan-driven elements that build on the central design.

 Zweischneid wrote:
GoA doesn't need just "eye-candy". It needs an aesthetic core of design and vision, from which people may or may not fork off some community/fan-driven elements that build on the central design.

I agree with your sentiment, but to clarify: I do very strongly think the kickstarter project needs primarily "eye candy." I believe it would be well served to put this candy on prominent display. Us rules-nerds could dig a bit, and learn more about the game mechanics.

I have faith that Rick and his team have good vision and will create a strong design, but to get the true crowd in for this crowd-funded deal, you need the visual appeal that Kingdom Death provided. KD was unique and very interesting (though ultimately the pin-up female models that probably drew in many backers were what kept me away, I think I was in the minority and didn't back that KS project because of the silly girls! That and the annoying scale choice that makes those miniatures useless for the other games I play).

Draw us in with lots of really creative and interesting miniatures. We'll stay for the ruleset. That's what got KD two million bucks (and I'm not really even sure about the ruleset part...!)

Edit: and I reckon it's worth noting that many (most?) KS projects go through their doldrums early on and/or somewhere along the middle. Who knows? Maybe this one has yet to explode???

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I think the issue is its a kickstarter that wants to shape a system and a world, while people do not want to shape a system and a wall, but see nice eye candy.

I quite enjoy talking about worldbuilding possibilities, and used to do it quite a bit on the Defiance Games forum. But that does not mean I'm willing to buy their product before I know what the peanut gallery settled on. Hell, even when I did know and I bit the bullet and bought Sedition Wars, it still sounds like they fethed it up and didn't bother to check if the basic infantry sculpt actually fit together.

Most recent update mentions showing off a buncha greens next week including the Wardrones. So perhaps everyone asking for more mini info will get it soon!

Why is he wearing a massive nappy/diaper? what is it with these huge codpieces?

 cyphertheory wrote:
What is it with these huge codpieces?

It's a setting with prevalent genetic engineering. You do the math.

And on that point, I find it far more believable that we'd have a bunch of Greek gods and goddesses running around than furries (Pan) and androgynies (NuHu).

To be honest: KD got most if its pledgers because of the eye candy. I can´t see the game itself to be more than something bolted onto the KS as an afterthought.

@Duncan_Idaho: Except that he created the minis 3 years ago specifically to FUND the KD:M games he's been dreaming of making.

The monsters and pinups have an eye candy angle, but (in my opinion) there's no question that most of the player pieces were designed specifically as game pieces. They have relatively basic poses and a lot of equipment options: that reads as important as functional, not as a display piece.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
To be honest: KD got most if its pledgers because of the eye candy. I can´t see the game itself to be more than something bolted onto the KS as an afterthought.

You'd be wrong. Kingdom Death launched one of the most innovative and uniquely new board/miniature game concept in a decade at least. That's why it got featured on things like Wired.com, etc.. .

His pin-ups are nice, but nekkid girl-miniatures are plentify. That's not what made it explode.

As said, I admire your tenacity in sticking with GoA. But your argument isn't strengthened by trying to denigrate other people's efforts.

And Rick Priestley wasn't much older than Adam Poots is now when he made his first big splash.

Folks, when writing "game itself" I ment the rules.

And sorry, the information we got about the rules do not have anything innovative. Sure, the adding-on thing on the minis is nice (has been done before, but with small success, was a robo game half a decade earlier), but does not really have anything to do with the rules. That´s still eye candy.

And I have no intention to mock his work, but I am too long in the business to see in a standard level rule set more than an standard-level rule set. Take Tentacle Bento. The rules are nothing to write home about and only the eye candy saves the game somehow. With KD the rules we got until now are rather pedestrian. The minis are technically great, though they are not to my taste.

And I can assure you in two years time not many will play the KD rules. That´s not me, judging it, that´s the market that decides. And after a few years you get a feeling for which ideas will survive in the long ran and which don´t. And I have seen similar ideas like the KD rules, but they mostly tanked. From my point of view KD has reached most of its audience with the KS, there will not be that many more after the KS to draw into the game. It´s too niché for that. You can sell Sedition Wars, Antares or 40K in a toy store but not KD. And that´s where the money lies.

Back to topic:

Evening all - Had an interesting day today, planning out the rest of the month and kicking off a number of new sculpts, including the WarDrones!!! These are a critical component to our Kickstarter and more importantly to your army's so we've taken a number of steps to ensure they're brilliant - more on those puppies next week! Thank you all for your feedback on the forums, it was very helpful.

Kev's been busy with Hansa and many of you mentioned that you liked him bald, so we're toying with that idea and that tash is definitely growing on us... and him!

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
The monsters and pinups have an eye candy angle, but (in my opinion) there's no question that most of the player pieces were designed specifically as game pieces. They have relatively basic poses and a lot of equipment options: that reads as important as functional, not as a display piece.

Yes, but it just so happens that many think of them as some of the most beautiful, imaginative and finely crafted miniatures to have ever been made. Is that too much of an exaggeration? They certainly have to be the large part of why that KS made so much money.

I guess there can be many reasons why someone can pledge to support a KS. At present, the evidence seems to show that greens/sculpts are more of a pull than reputation of the game creator, a gaming system or innovative method of play (with the developer - gamer interaction) - or all of these factors combined of course.

Of course, if GoA can show a couple of awesome looking sculpts over the next few weeks, then it might get the benefit of backing from both groups!

Speaking of which think Hansa is looking great! With a couple of little accessories that Kevin is talking about (perhaps some kind of 'Vegeta' style eye piece making him over 9000) might make him look even better perhaps?

Theophony wrote:
I think Rick just needs to talk to mark at dreamforge games, Rick help make a killer system for the amazing minis mark already has, and mark already has the background fleshed out. This tag team would kill GW overnight.

This may be the best idea I've read on Dakka in a while. Mark's concepts and actual finished pieces (arriving soon!!!) are really top-notch, but the game development hasn't caught up yet (and who could blame him, pushed to the limit already creating great minis). And this Gates of Antares project seems completely sunk into the game development and the minis haven't caught up yet.

Probably a fantasy, but we can always daydream...

-C6

So the Hansa mini is going to have a mullet?...
Brock Samson is pretty much the only mullet I'm willing to give any time to.

 Melcavuk wrote:
Latest progression sculpt on the limited edition Hansa model is now up:

I would have suggested giving him a backpack full of equipment (ie: extra ammo), as he looks like a commando.

I'm getting a Tom Selleck vibe...

Best Hulk Hogan Parody figure I've ever seen. Wonder if he'll have a mean looking speedboat?

Better without hair, IMHO. His head and his arms may be unarmored, but at least his butt is protected in case his chair attacks him?

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Folks, when writing "game itself" I ment the rules.

And sorry, the information we got about the rules do not have anything innovative. Sure, the adding-on thing on the minis is nice (has been done before, but with small success, was a robo game half a decade earlier), but does not really have anything to do with the rules. That´s still eye candy.

If the creators of this Kickstarter think like that, they deserve to fail.

You act as if pledging for miniatures was some dirty business one had to tolerate to sell rules. Well, nuts to that. The rules are just the grognard candy. The models are what sell these games. Just ask Sedition Wars, Dreadball, KDM, ...you know, Kickstarters that were actually successful.

Rules come and go. Minis are forever (unpainted).

 Zweischneid wrote:


Not necessarily "the lowest common denominator", but still prone to having "outside-the-box" ideas being shot down by a "hating" minority (and frankly, 90% of the talk on the GoA forums is about what they do NOT want, rather than what they want, and a lot of it feels more like "fixing 40K", not like "let's create something truly new").

GoA doesn't need just "eye-candy". It needs an aesthetic core of design and vision, from which people may or may not fork off some community/fan-driven elements that build on the central design.

A very interesting observation.

 plastictrees wrote:
So the Hansa mini is going to have a mullet?...
Brock Samson is pretty much the only mullet I'm willing to give any time to.

In my opinion, there are nothing like enough mullets and mohicans in modern war-gaming miniatures.

Rules come and go. Minis are forever (unpainted).

Sure and that is why several companies went under. Nice minis sell a certain amount but the group that buys a game only for its minis is rather small but very vocal. It is the whole package that sells the game. And if you don´t have good rules going with the nice minis you will land in the artist/display niché with your minis. Nothing wrong when you are specialised on such things, but very bad if you design a game.

Oh, and if you mention SW, the minis are really good, but still quite some people are thinking they are crap. I know they are wrong and you do probably, too. But it shows how fickle the mini-lover group can be, much more fickle than the group that goes for the whole package. In the worst case it can even turn into outright hatred as we can see on the Rivet Wars forum. Minis invole a lot of taste, rules less so, they can be much easier proven to be good or bad and you have less problems with the rule crowd because of this.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:



Oh, and if you mention SW, the minis are really good, but still quite some people are thinking they are crap. I know they are wrong and you do probably, too. But it shows how fickle the mini-lover group can be, much more fickle than the group that goes for the whole package. In the worst case it can even turn into outright hatred as we can see on the Rivet Wars forum. Minis invole a lot of taste, rules less so, they can be much easier proven to be good or bad and you have less problems with the rule crowd because of this.

Perhaps there are people who complain about the minis (as there are a lot of people who complain about GW minis.. endlessly).

A lot of people are also very happy with them and Mike McVey is nearly 1 Million Dollar+ into building his version of an "alternative sci-fi wargaming" universe. The next expansion 'Arms of Sorrow' is on its way, giving yet more depth to the factions. Maybe another expansion or a smaller skirmish game set in the Sedition Wars universe. And perhaps in a year or two a massive Kickstarter for the "full" Sedition Wars war-game, with all the existing fan-base and community already on board (or even a "kickstarter-free" release.. gasp!).

Seems a lot smarter to build your "not-40K" from the smaller "Space-Hulk/Necromunda" equivalents (or Blood-Bowl-equivalent in the case of the upcoming Warpath) leading up to the "big plunge", instead of starting straight from the deep end (while fantasizing about smaller future spin-off and/or roleplaying games).

If I had to bet on who has the better chances to build a "sustainable", long-term gaming-IP there (which you keep saying is GoA's main advantage), it wouldn't be GoA from where I am looking at it.

You forget that SW already had a company that was churning out minis for the collectors for quite some time.