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Kev White's sculpt looks awesome so far, looking forward to more progress on this

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

And that for me is a fundamental flaw in the entire GW ecosystem Models > Fluff> Rules is the wrong way to go, Rules > Fluff > Models is the correct way to have a balanced functioning ecosystem were the background is correct and consistent and trust me any decent concept artist and miniature sculptor can make a great model from an established rules and background, making a great model and then figuring our how to stick it to the established fluff and rules needs a master game designer to pull it off and even then it is really hard to do so.

Rules don't need 300k pounds to fund though -_- At that level of funding, I think people expect to see some miniatures. Plus they're not just selling rules are they? Their pledges have miniatures in them, so despite what you say, obviously the miniatures are going to be important.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
And that for me is a fundamental flaw in the entire GW ecosystem Models > Fluff> Rules is the wrong way to go, Rules > Fluff > Models is the correct way to have a balanced functioning ecosystem were the background is correct and consistent and trust me any decent concept artist and miniature sculptor can make a great model from an established rules and background, making a great model and then figuring our how to stick it to the established fluff and rules needs a master game designer to pull it off and even then it is really hard to do so.

In my belief of course when you want to establish an IP and an ecosystem, the models is the least you need to worry, hire decent sculptors, have an established background for the concept artist to work with and its a really short time you need until you have them in your hands, on the other hand, to making the background and rules stand for themselves and above the competition is both time consuming and more industrious because you set everything the artist needs to work from.

There are two good reasons why we think the miniatures are more important than the rules. One, as players we do not have access to the capital and infrastructure necessary to produce our own multipart plastic kits, while we do have the tools we need to write or modify a ruleset. Two, making different models of equal quality expands our options, by letting us buy what we think looks best. Making different rulesets of equal quality reduces our options, by causing Balkanisation of the player base and thus making it harder to find someone who knows how to play the same game as you.

/shrug

I don't see why it has to be even an "either or".

Let's just assume that the rules and the background are absolutely beyond doubt the best thing since sliced bread.

That would make the current GBP 25,- pledge the sweet spot of this Kickstarter.

For GBP 25,-, I would get a ~270 page full-colour rulebook with all those amazing Rick Priestly rules, the great fluff, AND I get the one miniature that is Kickstarter exclusive on top.

I am in. I am a backer. The snippets of rules, background and Hansa have convinced me to pledge 25 quid.


Now.... they need to convince me to pledge more, because frankly it wont fund, if the "sweet-spot" of this Kickstarter is a measly GDP 25,- per backer.

However, I haven't seen anything that convinced my to pledge more, for something in addition to the book and the Hansa figure.

It looks like the project has really stalled out over the last few days, which is unfortunate. I think maybe the folks at DSC need to step back if momentum can't be regained soon and reassess the pitch.

A thought if I may. Scale back the KS to the rules (along with the collectors edition of them), allow miniature credits as an add-on, but not the primary focus and maintain the current timeline. This should get you up and running for the alpha and beta as well as give some level of basic funding towards development of the miniatures. Work on the concept art and fluff for some of the factions in the meantime. During the alpha, launch a second KS around the focused factions to bring those into development and then a third KS during the beta.

The biggest problem I see here is that KS is different things to different people and the current appeal is only to folks who want to jump in and be part of something when it's still just an idea. Given the amount you're looking for, there really needs to be crossover into the folks who use KS for pre-orders and those who look to fund the final polish of a mostly complete idea.

The rules will cater to the first group. Focus on a set of factions during the alpha will appeal to the second group and the final push during beta will appeal to the third.

Just my .02.

From the consumer's perspective the miniatures are a solid interchangeable functional piece that has the most value, I am not arguing that many if not most here will be far more interested in the miniatures than anything else, if the resent kicstarters are anything to go by most joined for the miniatures to use them on something else.

But from the companies perspective, the ones who do not want to just sell miniatures for something else but create their own IP and establish themselves, the miniatures are not that important, yes they are important, because this is what you will sell to the consumers and this is what will attract the consumers, but the entire ecosystem (rules and background) that the miniatures will promote it the fundamental part, what will diversify the company from the others.

For me I see in front of me a paradox, people complained all this time that CMON's kickstarters are a glorified preorder that the kickstarter was not needed and they do it for promotional mainly with some slight benefit in making some components better like card counters to plastic and the you have a pure "we intend to do this" kickstarter as I said earlier a "pure" kickstarter and people complain that it is not near completion (and a glorified preorder).

I have a decade to touch publishing (so prices must have fallen) and my country was always on the expensive side, but, publishing a book is quite expensive, beyond the actual writing and editing, there is layout, illustration and of course printing and of course storage and distribution, they do add up, not sure if they would add up to 300k but half of that or more would not surprise me at all.

The sum is, yes I can understand that miniatures are great to see, but I also understand why the game mechanics and background are seen as more important (or more pressing) to the company.

There are several other KS where the cost of publishing a book doesn't come to 300k pounds. The closest I can think of right now is http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1176616619/shadows-of-esteren-a-medieval-horror-rpg-prologue where for a goal of 3,000usd you get a 140 page RPG book. And there's also malifaux which ended recently, which required less minimum cash and had about the same amount of pages iirc.

And there's a difference between a glorified pre-order and you know, actually having something on the table. It's like if you're a teacher and one of your students comes up to you with his big project and instead of showing you anything, he tells you 'this project can be whatever you want it to be'

For me, the gold standard of game book publishing via Kickstarter was the Robin D. Laws 'Hillfolk' RPG -- started out with modest goals ($3,000) but offered so many stretch goals and bonuses, and looked so damn good, and built on so many years of work, that it pulled in nearly $100,000. For a tabletop RPG book, not tied to an existing IP, that's incredibly, outrageously successful.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/robindlaws/hillfolk-dramasystem-roleplaying-by-robin-d-laws

 Dysartes wrote:
Rik, don't know if I've missed this somewhere, but could you explain what the "Big Bang Reward Tier" is about that is mentioned at the Singularity level, please?

The Big Bang reward tier is listed on the Kickstarter site and is the £1 level. This gets you access to the Alpha and Beta PDF documents and access to the development forum after the Kickstarter finishes.

 Zweischneid wrote:
/shrug

I am in. I am a backer. The snippets of rules, background and Hansa have convinced me to pledge 25 quid.

Now.... they need to convince me to pledge more, because frankly it wont fund, if the "sweet-spot" of this Kickstarter is a measly GDP 25,- per backer.

However, I haven't seen anything that convinced my to pledge more, for something in addition to the book and the Hansa figure.

I see your point, but the way I look at it is that I'm happy to put in more because I really want to see the project happen. In other words, a low pledge might make sense from a "risk" point of view, since we don't yet know exactly what we're buying, but if everyone puts in low pledges we risk not seeing the game/book/fluff/models at all.

And that would be a real shame.

I'm pretty sure that the onus is on the company if they want they money to show us stuff that will actually get us to pledge that amount of money and not on us to back it just because 'hey, this might turn out to be something good'

Here's my problem: if they went through normal investment channels, this wouldn't be funded. There isn't enough tangible information. They'd require concept art. They'd require a better sense of the sculpts. They'd need a draft look at the rules. So far, this KS offers little of that.

I think its more of an issue of the economy, established players on the field and the general reluctance of all to commit on the sci fi field instead of the yet another sword and sorcery world for some reason.

Beyond that normal channels demand parts of the IP and have "creative input" on what you will do, something kickstarter bypasses.

Please point Rick, Rik and co to this thread. Just the first post is enough:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/499888.page

Fiore wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
/shrug

I am in. I am a backer. The snippets of rules, background and Hansa have convinced me to pledge 25 quid.

Now.... they need to convince me to pledge more, because frankly it wont fund, if the "sweet-spot" of this Kickstarter is a measly GDP 25,- per backer.

However, I haven't seen anything that convinced my to pledge more, for something in addition to the book and the Hansa figure.

I see your point, but the way I look at it is that I'm happy to put in more because I really want to see the project happen. In other words, a low pledge might make sense from a "risk" point of view, since we don't yet know exactly what we're buying, but if everyone puts in low pledges we risk not seeing the game/book/fluff/models at all.

And that would be a real shame.

I want to see it get funded, too...if for no other reason than a hope that they will put their money where their mouth is and finally make a true competitor for 40k. I'd like to see a company come out of nowhere and make GW sweat for once, and all the better if said company has former GW employees heading it. But it's perfectly sensible for people to hold on to their money at this point, I feel, and I don't want to start seeing people get shamed for not putting down more.

Edited this to sound less confrontational, lol...maybe I overreacted a bit, I dunno.

In any case I tried to pledge £25 for the rulebook and Hansa, since that's really all I can afford to risk, but it won't take my credit card for some reason. Just keep getting an error telling me to try again.

Good post. On top of all this, if the project does not get funded (which is a real possibility) then there's nothing stopping them from working on it in the meantime with the community they're already building and trying again in 6 months - only more prepared and better worked out with more concept art, more greens, a US-based shell company, etc etc.

 Sidstyler wrote:
I want to see it get funded, too...if for no other reason than a hope that they will put their money where their mouth is and finally make a true competitor for 40k. I'd like to see a company come out of nowhere and make GW sweat for once, and all the better if said company has former GW employees heading it. But it's perfectly sensible for people to hold on to their money at this point, I feel, and I don't want to start seeing people get shamed for not putting down more.

I feel very similarly. At this point I would like very much for them to create a true competitor for GW. However, with the way they present their business I think this is essentially impossible. My true hope for them to reach greatness is for them to fail to achieve funding, for them to have to seriously crack down and figure out what their business needs to beat GW, get some product or concept to show for it, and then to come back with a vengeance and get as much funding as they need.

Well, I'm in fro 125 GBP. It may be ill-considered, but they sound like they have their heads in the right place. There is still time for them to impress the world with WIP.

Surely you might as well bid at the level you want to bid at?

You don't lose the money until it gets funded.
If it doesn't get funded, no money is taken.
If it does end up getting funded and you, for example, don't like the look of the models once they're shown, you change your pledge level lower down.

Therefore, you might as well pledge the level that you genuinely want in 'best case circumstances' to ensure that the project is funded after all...

 Compel wrote:
Surely you might as well bid at the level you want to bid at?

You don't lose the money until it gets funded.
If it doesn't get funded, no money is taken.
If it does end up getting funded and you, for example, don't like the look of the models once they're shown, you change your pledge level lower down.

Therefore, you might as well pledge the level that you genuinely want in 'best case circumstances' to ensure that the project is funded after all...

Butbutbutbut . . . that's too logical!

You can't change your funding once the thing finishes, or at least you can't reduce it.
And you know what's even more logical? Not funding for things you're uncertain of.

Sining wrote:
And you know what's even more logical? Not funding for things you're uncertain of.

This. Well said.

The extension of that logic is that you may as well pledge beyond your best case, to ensure that it gets funded. You can always drop it down at the last moment. Let's all go pledge thousands of dollars now!!1!

No. better to pledge what you're happy and comfortable with spending at the time you pledge. If it doesn't hit the goal then there's something wrong with the campaign or what's on offer.

Latest progression sculpt on the limited edition Hansa model is now up:

The mustache is a thing of beauty. I want that figure to go along with my Zed (from the Warstore), if nothing else.

That 'stache is commanding me to pledge, must resist.

This kickstarter is in many ways different from others. Most of the other KS did show us no, few or limited game rules. i.e. the nature of the games limited them to not as many pages for the core rules as the usual TT has. And this is a full-blown

The problem i see: how else can you transfer that much information without loosing the interest of of the gamers and don´t be mistaken, gamers are a fickle crowd that goes for the TT of the week if it is shiny and new. I`ve wittnessed this much too often.

So, starting the info-campaign earlier might have been possible, but if you do not have anything at stake you normally don´t care as much. But if you invest money into something you much more care that it turns out positive. There might be some mistakes in this campaign. But since it is the first of its kind (a full-blown gaming universe and TT) there had to be some mistakes.

Also: We do have 2 months to go and in my opinion there is no need to break records, it just needs to reach its goal. Suddenly there seems to be a competition going on on KS to be the next one KS that sets the bar higher. I don´t see the need for this. So, if we somehow hit the 300.000 or just a little more that wil kickstart the engine of this company. And from what I know it has everything in it to run from then on without too many problems.

What many don´t see: DSC has made its homwork in the not so shiny areas of gaming, that is thorrough financial plans, logistics and core game structure. Problem is: that´s hard to sell. Tentacle Bento might have been quite successfull, but to be honest the game is absolutly boring and only shines through its graphics and theme. Maybe we sometimes let us too much be fooled by shiny things.

Keep that moustache on Hansa and you have my pledge!

Think the plate-style armour works well, and as has been said the 'tache could easily bump GoA above the required £300,000 all on its own

The moral/fighting capacity mechanic seems very interesting. Again it's something that has worked well with Ambush Alley and other squad-based systems, and I can imagine it combining very well with the reaction mechanic. You'll get squads sprinting for cover, with another trying to hit an opposing squad (so they keep their head down) while they do so. In other words, a lot of potential for tactical input, or mistakes to be made, on behalf of the player. Means I will most likely suck at the game but what can you do?

Anyone else reminded of Hulk Hogan from Suburban Commando?

Not sure I like the 'stache, really.