I love the Isorian faction badge. I've saved the image in my pictures folder. So at least I've gotten something out of this kickstarter, even if it doesn't get fully funded.
The content of the Kickstarter is getting better, but it's still not at the point where you want it for when you *start* the kickstarter. So I'm still waiting and not pledging, hoping Rick & company finally clue in and get busy delivering real content worth supporting to completion as a real product.
Alpharius wrote: I don't think "Space Hobos" really did it for many...
Now trending towards 69% of goal.
I can't believe that the people behind this project aren't 'getting it'.
Maybe at the start, but not now!
I keep expecting them to unleash something spectacular... any day now?
The longer this goes on, the less I'm convinced they have something to show. Maybe they're still wrangling on the forums over what to do next and the crucial poll is indecisive? I keep checking back, but nope, just the same clutch of concepts.
For now, personally, I'll keep checking but any money that I have left to support this is increasingly being used to support or buy other things. I suspect that others are thinking the same which is another big issue for this. Backers who are backing this and have budgeted may be beginning to think that this won't succeed and are planning to use their money for something else.
It's far too little, too late. I'd be very surprised if they break 50%, with the new pledges flatlining like that. The only question remains is whether or not they'll try again in a few months with maybe something concrete to show and one tenth of the initial limit.
Well, I still think they should try going from small to large (not the other way around).
1) Do an Antares knock-off/version of Necromunda/Space Hulk(or sci-fi Blood Bowl!!) to give people a low-mini-count entry into the world. Create basic skirmish rules. Develop factions with a handfull of sculpts each side.
2) Than do an Antares version of something like Gorkamorka; e.g. develop vehicle rules and integrate them into the game. Add one or two vehicle-kits per faction and expand other miniatures.
3) Than, perhaps, do a pen-and-paper RPG to really flesh out the background and universe.
4) And only than, do the not-40K.
And almost as a byproduct, you'll be building yourself a committed community to provides feedback and opinions along the way, without having to drum it up as some sort of unique KS-privilege.
I want to be proven wrong as I like Rick Priestly but this KS really smells of idea on a napkin.
Surely getting feedback from the community and then working towards concepts and something of more substance should have been the prelude to this KS not part of it?
Zweischneid wrote: Well, I still think they should try going from small to large (not the other way around).
This, the system is meant to be highly scalable anyway so the core mechanics should work in the smaller games and in theory it would have been a case of adding more detail that you associate with small/skirmish games. Get a small range of models out for 4 of the factions and start to build from there. The online scoring system should work fine at any level.
As I've said earlier I will wait and see what this week brings, I.e Friday, as they have stated what they want to do this week, so have to give the benefit of the doubt, if by sat we are not seeing much of anything, I may start to think its not going to happen.
Ah we'll there is £190 earmarked for toy soldiers, there is always warriors of chaos to start fantasy again :-)
We've also got an update on what kind of force build ups there will be:
EXAMPLE FORCES
The following examples are selected to a total value of 240 credits and illustrate a possible combination of forces for the Concord, Isorian Shard, Algoryn Prosperate, Boromites, and Freeborn. To each of these we would add 20 WarDrones, and Hansa Nairoba as the forces overall leader.
CONCORD
The Concord Combined Command – or CoCom – has at its disposal a highly trained force of elite troops. As elite troops 240 credits stretches to a complete squad of ten CoCom troopers– although this could be divided for tactical purposes into smaller squads for deployment.
CoCom Squad
1 CoCom Commander = 30
6 CoCom Troopers with Plasma Carbines = 120
2 CoCom Trooper with Plasma Cannon = 60
1 CoCom Trooper with X-Launcher = 30
= 240
Alternatively, a CoCom force could consist entirely of Mercenaries hired from the Freeborn, or a mixture of CoCom troopers, Mercenaries, and some physically distinctive pans of the Corcord such as the Boromites. Here is an example of such a force. It comprises three separate squads of CoCom, Boromite and Freeborn Mercenaries led by a NuHu Contact team Leader.
1 NuHu Contact Team Leader = 30
2 CoCom Troopers with Plasma Carbines = 40
1 CoCom Trooper with Plasma Cannon = 30
1 Boro Engineer = 20
2 Boromite Miners with Mass Compactors = 20
1 Boromite Miner with Frag Borer = 10
3 Freeborn Troopers with Plug Carbines = 60
1 Freeborn Trooper with Fractal Cannon = 30
= 240
ISORIAN SHARD
The military of the Isorian Shard operates in the same way as the Concord, with a core of elite troops and the option of mixing in other pans or mercenary Freeborn. They are elite fighters and this squad could easily be deployed as two very effective units.
Isorian Squad
1 Isorian Battle Leader = 30
6 Isorian Troopers with Plasma Carbines = 120
2 Isorian Troopers with Fractal Cannon = 60
1 Isorian Trooper with X-Launcher = 30
= 240
An Isorian force could consist entirely of Mercenaries hired from the Freeborn, or a mixture of CoCom troopers, Mercenaries, and some physically distinctive pans of the Concord such as the Boromites. Here is an example of such a force. It comprises three separate squads of CoCom, Boromite and Freeborn Mercenaries led by a NuHu Ambassador.
1 NuHu Ambassador = 30
2 Isorian Troopers with Plasma Carbines = 40
1 Isorian Trooper with Fractal Cannon = 30
1 Boro Overseer with Chain Lash = 20
2 Boromite Miners with Mass Compactors = 20
1 Boromite Miner with Core Charge = 10
3 Freeborn Troopers with Plug Carbines = 60
1 Freeborn Trooper with Fractal Cannon = 30
= 240
ALGORYN PROSPERATE
The Algoryn are just one distinctive species of pans – they have established colonies and control a number of worlds forming the Algoryn Prosperate. Their forces are well trained and equipped. Here is a typical Algoryn squad:
Algoryn Squad
1 Prosperate Captain = 30
6 Algoryn Troopers with Plug Carbines = 120
1 Algoryn Troopers with Plasma Cannon = 30
3 Algoryn Troopers with Plasma Pistols + Grenades = 60
= 240
Alternately, an Algoryn force could include a mix of Freeborn mercenaries and Algoryn, and it could also include Boromites from the Asteroid colonies on some of the Prosperate’s outlying worlds. Here’s what that might look like.
1 Prosperate Captain = 30
2 Algoryn Troopers with Plug Carbines = 40
1 Algoryn Trooper with Fractal Cannon = 30
1 Boro Overseer with Compression Carbine = 20
2 Boromite Miners with Mass Compactors = 20
1 Boromite Miners with Core Charges = 10
3 Freeborn Troopers with Plug Carbines = 60
1 Freeborn Trooper with Fractal Cannon = 30
= 240
FREEBORN
Freeborn forces belonging to one of the great houses – or Vardo – form a fighting army in their own right, able to go into battle on behalf of their Vardo. But the Freeborn also hire their troops out to anyone willing to pay for them. Indeed – one of the chief commodities traded by the Freeborn is its own military. Here is what a typical Freeborn mercenary squad might look like.
Freeborn Mercenary Squad
1 Freeborn Captain = 30
6 Freeborn Troopers with Plug Carbines = 120
1 Freeborn Trooper with Fractal Cannon = 30
3 Freeborn Troopers with Plasma Pistols + Grenades= 60
= 240
Alternatively, here is a 120 credit force that could be added to the Boromite WarGang – there are many Boromites amongst the Freeborn, some operating mining and construction projects on behalf of their Vardo.
1 Freeborn Captain = 30
3 Freeborn Troopers with Plug Carbines = 60
1 Freeborn Trooper with Fractal Cannon = 30
= 120
CONCORD, ISORIAN, FREEBORN OR DETERMINATE BOROMITE WARGANG
The Boromites spread throughout the Spill long before the Seventh Age, and can be found mining the asteroids of systems throughout space. As such there are Boromites in different armed forces – even amongst the Freeborn – and here is one possible make up for a Boromite Wargang. This comes to 120 credits, and could be doubled if you are really fond of Boromites, or mixed with another 120 credits of another faction to make a mixed force.
Boromite Wargang
1 Boro Overseer with plasma pistol and chain lash = 20
6 Boromite Miners with Mass Compactors = 60
3 Boromite Miners with Core Charges = 30
1 Boromite Miner with Frag Borer = 10
= 120
Wait, did Rick basically say they weren't going to make (any/many?) female models because they wouldn't sell as well as the male models? Yeah, that'll win people over I'm sure.
Rick said they wouldnt be the primary focus because commercially they dont sell as well, he didnt rule out female miniatures nor say there would be none in the initial figure list. He then went on to say that when they are looked at they will be in proportion and realistic without having to go into overly erotic.
Bromsy wrote: I'd be interested in animal people so long as they aren't done in a cutesy way, but frankly that vibe will probably be satisfied by the ape folks.
Ape/monkey-based primate factions are the stupidest trope ever. Hugely over-used in SF.
Melcavuk wrote: Rick said they wouldnt be the primary focus because commercially they dont sell as well, he didnt rule out female miniatures nor say there would be none in the initial figure list. He then went on to say that when they are looked at they will be in proportion and realistic without having to go into overly erotic.
They don't sell we'll because they're seldom DONE well. People love the female sedition wars models because they look like actual females in armor and they don't all look like Briene of Tarth.
they said they didn't want to make female models that were over the top. They didn't want a pin up style or scantily clad female in the game. How many people would put money into a regular looking female soldier? Maybe a few but not many..
scipio.au wrote: Chris sure likes his zombies. He's telling the former Rackham sculptor in the Simon Miniatures thread (where the sculptor is sculpting brilliant, Rackham-esque things) that "he should just make like a line of zombies or pirates or ninjas; core stuff that sells to fans" instead...
@Chris - here you go mate. Check these out for starters...
It's a valid point of view. The figures he sculpts are great from a technical perspective, but I would never buy any. If Confrontation was so great, why didn't it succeed. I respect the fact that he's sticking to his own style and sculpting things that interest him, but you can never have too many "bread and butter" figures that pay the bills while you sculpt the more esoteric stuff. In movie terms, summer blockbusters pay for all the art-house films.
All the zombie figures are wrong for various reasons, either they are 25mm or small 28mm, or the Mantic zombies are fantasy zombies and not modern zombies, the Reaper ones are metal (but I hope they re-release them in Bones plastic) the zombies from Zombies!!! are solft plastic which I can't stand and the Zombie Vixens are great, but I need male zombies to go with them.
AlexHolker wrote: And personally, I think it's rather ridiculous to pretend that people who would have themselves and all their descendants turned into the creations of Doctor Moreau are so common that they could support multiple subspecies.
*shrug* I buy it, furry or not. Batman Beyond had supervillains that used animal gene-tech to alter themselves and d20 Modern / d20 Future had the Moreau species. It stands to figure they could breed.
Really I think we're getting into the worst parts of sci-fi, one person's view doesn't fit with another (Ireally love zombies, for instance) and it becomes a big argumentative mess.
Alpharius wrote: I don't think "Space Hobos" really did it for many...
Now trending towards 69% of goal.
I can't believe that the people behind this project aren't 'getting it'.
Maybe at the start, but not now!
I keep expecting them to unleash something spectacular... any day now?
That Wardrone had really better be the best thing ever, it's really the half-million dollar sculpt now.
Agamemnon2 wrote: It's far too little, too late. I'd be very surprised if they break 50%, with the new pledges flatlining like that. The only question remains is whether or not they'll try again in a few months with maybe something concrete to show and one tenth of the initial limit.
The really should have just done a 100K kickstarter, and sunk all the money into plastic core infantry kits. Release the rulebook for free like Void did, and go from there.
Confrontation did succeed. It's success helped secure a several million euro investment into AT-43, and it's demise helped secure the fate of Rackham and Rackham Entertainment. Confrontation's success is why Confrontation 3/3.5 is coming back.
agreed confrontation was a success but it seems french companies make the worst gaming investments.. cant wait for that cool mini kickstarter to come up ill admit.
It's a valid point of view. The figures he sculpts are great from a technical perspective, but I would never buy any. If Confrontation was so great, why didn't it succeed. I respect the fact that he's sticking to his own style and sculpting things that interest him, but you can never have too many "bread and butter" figures that pay the bills while you sculpt the more esoteric stuff. In movie terms, summer blockbusters pay for all the art-house films.
You really should educate yourself about the failings of Rackham if you're going to comment. It had very little to do with the metal confrontation sculpts.
Cerealkiller195 said
they said they didn't want to make female models that were over the top. They didn't want a pin up style or scantily clad female in the game. How many people would put money into a regular looking female soldier? Maybe a few but not many..
There is an entire thread started by a female poster (the thread is about sexism) who also wants realistic female mini's. The point being that female gamers would want those mini's not only to supplement their 40k armies (or others), but also to feel like they can relate to a character or unit. Saying that not many people would be interested is doing a disservice to all those who want a more integrated army or game, not your generic "This is a Man's Mans' Man Thing, and icky girls aren't wanted!!"
That being said a whole unit of lady warriors might not be very popular, but it would fill a niche, and it might invite more people into our hobby. Even if they are "icky girl people".
cerealkiller195 wrote: they said they didn't want to make female models that were over the top. They didn't want a pin up style or scantily clad female in the game. How many people would put money into a regular looking female soldier? Maybe a few but not many..
Back in the day, with the original Rogue Trader Imperial Army (pre-guard) metal models, there were several female Imp Army figures. They were just mixed in with the males. No fuss or trumpeting. No need to call them the Foxxxy Division or the Xenas or any of that BS. Just some female soldiers mixed in with the rest of the range. Sedition Wars seems to be the closest thing since then in this genre, excepting several dark/eldar torsos and the Wyches. When was that? 1987?
Cerealkiller195 said
they said they didn't want to make female models that were over the top. They didn't want a pin up style or scantily clad female in the game. How many people would put money into a regular looking female soldier? Maybe a few but not many..
There is an entire thread started by a female poster (the thread is about sexism) who also wants realistic female mini's. The point being that female gamers would want those mini's not only to supplement their 40k armies (or others), but also to feel like they can relate to a character or unit. Saying that not many people would be interested is doing a disservice to all those who want a more integrated army or game, not your generic "This is a Man's Mans' Man Thing, and icky girls aren't wanted!!"
Just one thing. If they're made, they will have huge tits. Same reason almost all 28mm figures also have disproportionate hands, heads, feet, guns and in figures like Hansa's case, male musculature. They don't need to be hanging out, though.
Chris - from your reply, I'm sure his Zombies wouldn't be good enough for your exacting tastes. They'd be too big, for one thing (based on the Rackham metal scale). I don't know what you're thinking to suggest that Pirates and Ninjas are the "bread and butter" for this industry though.
About 60-70% of the story he got right. Most of the wrong stuff is towards the end.
Let´s just say that Rackham was on its way up again when the investor bought it.
Sadly the last investor that bought Rackham was a company that was itself in financial trouble and needed the money that came with Rackham to hide its troubles. They let the team believe that they could order products and produce stuff but when the invoices came they never payed since the money had already been squandered to hide their own financial trouble. This fraud killed a Rackham that would otherwise have been able to start anew.
Rackham had made some bad business decissions but never that bad that they would have been beyond rescue. As far as I know the case is still investigated and it will take years to unravel the whole thing.
Sidstyler wrote: Wait, did Rick basically say they weren't going to make (any/many?) female models because they wouldn't sell as well as the male models? Yeah, that'll win people over I'm sure.
What if they're zombies with cat heads? And posed like strippers?
So, Planet of the Apes rip-offs have wide market appeal, but 50+% of the population doesn't appeal to gamers.
How about walking breast-monsters? We can have them fight Woody Allenites with tentacle penises or something to show we're mature patrons of the arts.
I honestly don't care what races are in the game. It could be furries and cybersmurfs and CVzombies and s&m lollipop ladies for all I care. I want a good, generic, sci fi wargame. None exist right now that fills that void. The closest would be Stargrunt and Tomorrow's War, but these have their own share of problems (I do like a point system for pick up games, don't always have the time to create balanced scenarios). I am in this project because I trust Priestley's rules writing abilties, as I'm in love with the last half-dozen rulesets he's written. I already own large forces of Urban War Viridians, Pig Iron troopers, and Copplestone Assault Troopers, all with mixes of Antenociti's Workshop vehicles, etc.
I haven't seen anything where GoA requires you to use their miniatures when playing the game; what's to stop anyone from using pre-existing furry minis or greenstuffing tails onto the plastic wardrones?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Basically I'm thinking (and wishing) GoA is the same thing as Hail Caesar and Black Powder and Warmaster and Bolt Action; well written and highly adaptable rules for any miniatures you want to use for the period that it represents. In this case, sci-fi. Most other time periods are covered by the aforementioned excellent systems.
There's so much wrong with that article, but, it's an opinion piece. AT-43 was in development for years. Hell, I've got some of the original beta test cards and such ("White Stars Trooper", etc, from 2004/2005). AT-43 was a huge project for Jean Bey, and was actually making them money. Now, take this with a grain of salt, as this is a "I heard this from someone who talked to someone in the company" kind of things, but the collapse of R-E occurred when they couldn't pay the bills for Wave 1 Confrontation AoR plastics after Wave 2 had shipped; and management made a terrible gamble by releasing most of the AT-43 Cogs first instead of the Oni. Apparently sales of the Oni stuff were through the roof with two production waves selling out almost immediately, but it wasn't enough to keep R-E afloat; they couldn't afford to pay to have another Oni production run made of the Wave 1 figures. Red Blok and UNA were constant revenue streams; many of the models were unavailable shortly after launching them and they had problems keeping up with demand for them throughout 2007-2008.
Now all the AT-43 steel molds are slowly rusting in a warehouse in China. They're apparently available for sale, to the tune of like 400k euro.
Melcavuk wrote: Rick said they wouldnt be the primary focus because commercially they dont sell as well, he didnt rule out female miniatures nor say there would be none in the initial figure list.
I've heard this song before. But as long as women are stuck with monopose metals for their rank and file while men have dozens of dedicated plastic kits for theirs, that's never going to change.
Yeah. Wargaming is a "man's game", but it's mostly because the people selling the models want to keep it that way, and it seems DSC, despite all it's talk of wanting to take risks, shake up the industry and push wargaming in a new direction, is really no different in the end. If you really wanna make a positive change then start acknowledging that women not only exist and actually want to engage in stereotypically nerdy, male-dominated hobbies (despite massive resistance from said dominant, nerdy males), but that they want to be as important as the men, they don't want to be stuck forever in the background as eye-candy for the prepubescent nerds or as the sexy sidekick to the real, male hero, who inevitably ends up becoming his "prize" in the end when the day is won. And that's the best-case scenario, if you want to see the your other options as a woman then go read Mat Ward's Grey Knight fluff, or his other fluff piece in the Blood Angels book about Flesh Tearers where even more Sisters were slaughtered by the so-called "good guys" with absolutely no consequence, other than the fact that other chapters kinda look down on them for their tendency to murder friend and foe alike and they're trying to change their reputation.
And it's a little disheartening considering that this new game is supposed to be all about player input. We're being told we can finally have a say in how things go down and influence the development of the game, it's the whole fething point of their Kickstarter ("...and YOU!"), and they just flat out tell us they're not going to do something because it won't sell well, or that it isn't a "priority" but if they do make them then they'll do them right and not sell us the same tired cheesecake gak like everyone else does. While I'm glad that means I'll probably have more of this to look forward to in the future, andnotthis, it seems odd to me to deliberately choose not to take an opportunity to prove that you really are interested in what the community wants, and I assume there are a decent amount of people who want this or he wouldn't have wasted time addressing the question in a video in the first place. "Not a priority"...just sounds strange when you consider that getting ANY minis done at this point should be a priority, considering how abysmal their project is doing. You'd think they would be falling head over heels to try and include as many people as possible, they need the fething money, but no, women (and men who want realistic and diverse armies) and furries need not apply I guess.
I just don't see any reason why they can't include female soldiers from the start. That's the funny thing about his comment: it's not really something that has to take "priority" over anything! Instead of releasing a unit of all-male soldiers make one or two of them female, problem solved. What, are you going to tell me Kev White doesn't have experience sculpting women or that he just plain doesn't want to or something? We've seen his work on the Sedition Wars game so we know it's possible. You don't have to make a big deal out of it, making them a special unit with their own background or going to the extreme and making an all-female army to appease us, just mix them in here and there, and give us a female character or leader now and then. "They don't sell" is a bs excuse, you could make people buy them by doing male and female sculpts and boxing them together. Dark Eldar apparently sold very well when they were finally released, despite both core troops and just about every other unit in fact having a fairly even split of male/female heads/bodies, and they were pretty much universally praised even though all the pimply nerds were being "forced" to buy female models. There was a minority of people who didn't think wyches were "sexy" enough and thought male wyches were weird, but they could have easily been ignored. It was one of those rare times where it seemed like everyone was happy, the "haters" and the "fanboys" were both in agreement and the Games Day thread that year was basically just a huge, multi-page thread of "Oh gak, Dark Eldar! Jes is the man!" over and over. Even the prices were kinda decent at the time...although it kinda went to gak when the metal beasts came out a few months later. But yeah, I'd almost kill for $30 sets of metal incubi now.
Keep in mind here also that I'm only praising the Dark Eldar models, the rules are abysmal and GW can go straight to hell for dicking an army over so badly in such a short span of time, after letting them rot in limbo for over a decade. Barely two years after their release, which also marked the last time GW made a big deal out of any release and had actual previews and time spent leading up to it with videos, concept art, etc., and they're already irrelevant again. What the feth, why? Why waste all that time and money just to do that? Whatever, moving on...
I used to be one of those guys that thought modern-day feminism was all a load of bs, but sexism in geek culture has been a pretty hot topic here lately and after reading Melissia's thread in particular it's starting to make more sense now. For all the progress we've supposedly made in the past few decades, it still looks like sexism is alive and well if something as simple as equal representation for half the population is literally impossible to achieve. It's kinda sad when the best we can possibly hope for, from a company basing its entire existence on listening to fans and including them in the design process, is that if they do female models then they probably won't be cheesecake. And honestly I don't expect that to last, either, I'm almost willing to bet money we'll see some sexy concept art go up before the end when the team realizes their project just isn't going to make it and they start getting desperate.
Oh, and as for that whole "women can't be warriors" thing, because "It's just biology!", we're talking about a setting that takes place possibly millions of years in the future, where extreme gene manipulation is painless and apparently very commonplace. You have people turning themselves into animal hybrids just for kicks, I think the idea of women being augmented or taking advantage of the technology available to become good fighters is not exactly a fething stretch of the imagination, is it? You can literally wake up one day and decide you want to be a bird, or a lizard, but if you're a woman who wants to kick ass, now that's a pipe dream.
Sidstyler wrote: Wait, did Rick basically say they weren't going to make (any/many?) female models because they wouldn't sell as well as the male models? Yeah, that'll win people over I'm sure.
One more reason he should talk to DreamForge. Mark put the Ada "Kickstarter-special" mini up and people went wild for it, asking for entire female Sturmtruppen squads, which he ended up doing based on fan-feedback!!!
Sidstyler wrote: You don't have to make a big deal out of it, making them a special unit with their own background or going to the extreme and making an all-female army to appease us, just mix them in here and there, and give us a female character or leader now and then. "They don't sell" is a bs excuse, you could make people buy them by doing male and female sculpts and boxing them together. Dark Eldar apparently sold very well when they were finally released, despite both core troops and just about every other unit in fact having a fairly even split of male/female heads/bodies, and they were pretty much universally praised even though all the pimply nerds were being "forced" to buy female models.
I don't agree with this. I don't want to be forced to buy male sculpts to get the female sculpts, I want it to be just as easy to build an all-female army as it currently is to build an all-male army, and that means dedicated kits. Let people buy the two in whatever ratio they please.
I think the main issue with cat-folks et al and female soldiers is that they will have lots of historical sales and marketing data and from what their joined manufacturing team will be telling them, these dont sell as well as the main "guys in spppaaaccceee!" ever will.
So i can understand a reluctance to go and make these and find all they do is sit on shelves for years.
However in saying this i Rick didnt rule any of this out entirely, on women he said he was wary of ending up with the over emphasised female form\erotic side, as that wasnt the aesthetic, however stretch goal development could see the availability of female troops, anthropomorphic aliens etc etc.
Its not set in stone and once the set is complete thats it.
Sidstyler wrote: You don't have to make a big deal out of it, making them a special unit with their own background or going to the extreme and making an all-female army to appease us, just mix them in here and there, and give us a female character or leader now and then. "They don't sell" is a bs excuse, you could make people buy them by doing male and female sculpts and boxing them together. Dark Eldar apparently sold very well when they were finally released, despite both core troops and just about every other unit in fact having a fairly even split of male/female heads/bodies, and they were pretty much universally praised even though all the pimply nerds were being "forced" to buy female models.
I don't agree with this. I don't want to be forced to buy male sculpts to get the female sculpts, I want it to be just as easy to build an all-female army as it currently is to build an all-male army, and that means dedicated kits. Let people buy the two in whatever ratio they please.
Well, in a perfect world maybe. But when faced with these options: a) having no female sculpts at all, or b) having female sculpts come later, after all the men are done (which will take x amount of months/years/etc. and could potentially not happen at all), or c) having both male/female sculpts in the same box from the start, I think I would prefer having both in the same box from the start. Yeah, it might "force" people to buy models they might not want, but it didn't seem to negatively impact sales of Dark Eldar models when GW did it with them, so I don't think it would do so here, either. If the models are good enough they'll sell regardless.
If you want it done your way you're going to be kept waiting for a while, because for some reason men have to take "priority" over women and we simply can not design and sculpt both at once, that would be crazy.
Pfft, stretch goals? I don't think we'll be seeing any of that, they set the goal so stupidly fething high we might not even see it get funded, let alone make beyond what they're asking.
If financing a company in the right way and not half-way is stupid I now start to understand why so many companies hit the wall after 3 years latest.
And once again:
I don´t have a problem with critizism, but what some do here is very close to activly hurting the KS campaign by distributing a doom and gloom full 30 days before the KS ends. This KS is not what you want? OK, you voiced it, we heard it, but I am loathe to hear it page after page after page after page...
Guess why most of the more positive guys have moved on to the DSC forums. And, no, not the loudmouths dictate the direction, it´s the DSC team that does choose the direction, but it listens to the really good suggestions and they made it quite clear from the beginning that it will work this way.
And as with DakkaDakka, there is 1 interesting comment for 10-50 stupid ones most of times. Still I would not dare to call DakkaDakka a lost case...
Duncan_Idaho wrote: If financing a company in the right way and not half-way is stupid I now start to understand why so many companies hit the wall after 3 years latest.
You keep claiming that GoA has somehow magically superiour accounting than CMON, McVey, Mantic Games, etc.. . But other than your personal bias, I've seen no evidence of that yet. Where does this come from?
If you could back-up that claim with transparent, bias-free evidence, it wouldn't be the worst argument to make in favour of GoA.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: I don´t have a problem with critizism, but what some do here is very close to activly hurting the KS campaign by distributing a doom and gloom full 30 days before the KS ends. This KS is not what you want? OK, you voiced it, we heard it, but I am loathe to hear it page after page after page after page...
If you didn't expect this on Dakka then you probably haven't been reading a lot of the other Kickstarter topics. Dakka should not make or break a Kickstarter though, and TBH being so defensive and belligerent about it is IMO (as a neutral party who would like to see it funded but doesn't have any emotional investment in it and has spunked on too many other KS to make a big £ pledge) not helping either.
It surly helps more than your doom and gloom. And if you can´t stand the heat get the hell out of the kitchen .
@Zweischneid
Ask anyone that does plastic kits... if you ask nicely they will tell you how much this stuff costs.
What most of you still don´t get: SW, and many of the other KS are done out-house when it comes to fabrication. GoA is more of an in-house thing though Warlord will do the production stuff. That costs more in the beginning but later saves you a lot of money and you can react faster towards increasing demand.
@Zweischneid
Ask anyone that does plastic kits... if you ask nicely they will tell you how much this stuff costs.
Well. I am asking you.
If you're a decade-long veteran of the game industry, as you claim, and privy to insights into the inevitable financial doom of companies such as McVey or Mantic Games, which seem themselves yet unaware of their bleak future, I'd kindly ask you to enlighten us.
@production
out-house you rent the time at a factory which costs you much less then building the production department yourself. Drawbacks are: Moulds are not owned by you unless you agreed otherwise, you have to book production time, you have to have on guy that now and then visits the factory to make sure everything is still running it is working out as expected.
in-house is more expensive in the beginning, but allows you to scale much better with the demand and you can produce stuff whenever you need it and not when a time-slot is free. Also changes to the moulds are much easier to do and you save on transport.
I never said that McVey and Co are going to hit the wall. And for what they now produce this way does work out quite well. But somewhere in the future they will have to move production in-house when they reach a certain demand level. DSC at this point in time will have an advantage cause they had it in-house all the time. Also SW and other products are still small games that get extended box by box, but GoA is a full blown TT. The investment in the latter is higher in the beginning. And 300.000 is quite a normal budget if you start with a TT that starts at the intended size.
It´s the same as with LGS. Sure you can open up a shopt with 30.000, but a shop that starts with more realistic 80.-100.000 will do better much sooner.
Rick_1138 wrote: I think the main issue with cat-folks et al and female soldiers is that they will have lots of historical sales and marketing data and from what their joined manufacturing team will be telling them, these dont sell as well as the main "guys in spppaaaccceee!" ever will.
So i can understand a reluctance to go and make these and find all they do is sit on shelves for years.
However in saying this i Rick didnt rule any of this out entirely, on women he said he was wary of ending up with the over emphasised female form\erotic side, as that wasnt the aesthetic, however stretch goal development could see the availability of female troops, anthropomorphic aliens etc etc.
Its not set in stone and once the set is complete thats it.
It looks like the "guys in spppaaaccceee!" aren't selling at the moment. Which I think is part of the overall thing that there are so many SF lines on the market now, it is difficult for them all to be well supported.
Though to be fair, lots of Kickstarters go through a long period of low pledges in the middle of the campaign, and zoom up in the last few days.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Also SW and other products are still small games that get extended box by box, but GoA is a full blown TT.
Perhaps. But what is wrong with starting with a smaller game and scaling up interest and demand to a full-blown TT. Not least by not planting a new factory into the British Midlands on the arrogant assumption that one will be the next 40K in a year or two.
Sedition Wars (if it proves popular enough) WILL be a full-blown TT in an (ex-GW-employee-made) full-fledged sci-fi wargaming universe. And when that time comes, it can launch it on years of (a) fan-feedback, (b) proven delivery of products, (c) established, organically grown background. Warpath is even further along the road (and Alessio Cavatore isn't any less "open" to fan-feedback than Rick Priestley).
And to me, not building the factory right away, in case you might not become the next Warhammer 40K and perhaps remain a more niche-company sounds like a rather smart business decision for a start-up. Because having your own in-house production might be easy to scale-up. It's rather hard to scale-down however.
You're whole "GoA is doing it better" is based on the fallacy that GoA will, inevitably, be the 40K-Killer that hasn't materialized for the last 25 years and - not unlikely - may not materialize for another 25 years. Utopian dreaming like that is not a "good business practice"
Sidstyler, agreed. Miniatures wargaming is one of the worst geek cultures when it comes to excluding women. Even videogames, which are often appallingly sexist, have made it to a point where almost half the gamers are women. Miniatures wargaming still feels like a boys' club that deliberately tries to stay that way.
There's a huge demand for well-done female SF / near future soldiers because pretty much no-one is doing them, particularly in affordable multi-part plastic kit form... I don't see anyone being put off by including say 2 women in a 10-person infantry pack. Old-school sexist wargamers can swap or sell their 'spare' women infantry. Gamers wanting an all-women army for whatever reason will ensure there's a demand for that. Most people won't mind either way.
Perhaps. But what is wrong with starting with a smaller game and scaling up interest and demand to a full-blown TT. Not least by not planting a new factory into the British Midlands on the arrogant assumption that one will be the next 40K in a year or two.
Too many companies out there that offer small lines. You need to offer more if you want to survive and more minis right at the beginning helps a lot. Just have a look at Dust, without the huge number of plastic kits within 1-2 years they would be just another Weird War game trudging along. But now they are ahead of companies that have been producing such miniatures for years. And they don´t need to build a huge factory, the production facility Warlord invests in will do for the time being and can grow with the demand.
Sedition Wars (if it proves popular enough) WILL be a full-blown TT in an (ex-GW-employee-made) full-fledged sci-fi wargaming universe. And when that time comes, it can launch it on years of (a) fan-feedback, (b) proven delivery of products, (c) established, organically grown background. Warpath is even further along the road (and Alessio Cavatore isn't any less "open" to fan-feedback than Rick Priestley).
Some time in the future, yes. Though I assume SW will get there earlier than Warpath. But if everything works out DSC will move there much faster.
And to me, not building the factory right away, in case you might not become the next Warhammer 40K and perhaps remain a more niche-company sounds like a rather smart business decision for a start-up. Because having your own in-house production might be easy to scale-up. It's rather hard to scale-down however.
Actually Mantic quite wished they had a small factory when they ran into problems ith Renedra time-booking and the Goblin-problem. Factory does not mean a big 900x900ft block, it just needs to be a bigger garage with some casting machines inside. Besides, when the machines are not needed for GoA they do the job for Warlord.
You're whole "GoA is doing it better" is based on the fallacy that GoA will, inevitably, be the 40K-Killer that hasn't materialized for the last 25 years and - not unlikely - may not materialize for another 25 years. Utopian dreaming like that is not a "good business practice"
Sorry, but you have to be quite stupid to assume that any company will "kill" GW in the next 5-7 years. At the moment GW is it´s own worst enemy and Rackham was the only company that came even close to being a GW-killer were it not for Rackham being somtimes its own. worst enemy. You don´t need to kill the market leader. But you better make sure in any business that you are among the 3-4 leading companies in that business rather earlier than later cause only then you have a chance to get to the top.
Only just stumbled into this so I haven't had much time to read up. But while a bundle with models would make the most sense to pledge for in terms of actually playing the game eventually, the lack of ready models is a problem for me personally. Whether or not I like the models (like how Warmachines has well-made miniatures but the style just doesn't appeal to me on the whole) is basically a make or break thing for me in a miniature game, regardless of how good the rules are. Spending £125 for example for the Feeder level just doesn't seem such a good idea taking that into consideration!
£65 Dark Energy provides rules (start and PDF, no hardback), dice, templates, limied ed model and by the latest sample lists either one average army, or two small armies. Its a reasonable starting point.
Bear in mind more greens/concept art are on the way soon, personally Feeder is a good level for me as it give you the option of 2 decent sized armies (ideal for you and an opponent)
Well, I suppose the question with the difference between Dark Energy and Feeder is one of army sizes in general, as in how big of an army you need to play effectively.
Plus in my case I might just need enough models for two armies, so that I could actually lure someone into playing with me. Very unlikely anyone local would fund this KS and thus have an army of his own to start with.
Well, that's pretty much what I expected, and why I was thinking of Feeder if I were to pledge. I suppose I'll just keep an eye on this and read more about it to decide, but I must admit I'm quite skeptical at this point.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Sorry, but you have to be quite stupid to assume that any company will "kill" GW in the next 5-7 years.
I distinctly remember some people saying Rick intended to rival 40k with this game. It was in fact being heralded as the new "40k-killer", though I don't know if Rick himself said as much or if it was just some over-enthusiastic supporters saying things they probably shouldn't have.
Sidstyler wrote: I distinctly remember some people saying Rick intended to rival 40k with this game. It was in fact being heralded as the new "40k-killer", though I don't know if Rick himself said as much or if it was just some over-enthusiastic supporters saying things they probably shouldn't have.
Trying to be a "40k-killer" in the wargaming industry is basically the same as trying to be a "WoW-killer" in the MMO industry. It just isn't going to happen.
For me, this emphasises one of the problems with this kickstater - the defensive attitude a lot of the backers have (eloquently demonstrated by Duncan). The retrenchment into an isolated community that rapidly becomes an echo chamber and those with the temerity to criticise or ask questions are immediately accused of not getting it.
The question I ask is - why should I drop my money on this? Yes, Rik is involved, and for that you have held my attention and piqued my interest. However, why should I, or any other, give patronage? What makes this so special above any other game? The driven by the community thing, for me, is a turn off. It sounds like designed by committee to me. What else do you have to offer? Fluid Combat status - well this comes across a bit like unit activation (akin to Epic:A) as opposed to the UGOIGO we're all accustomed to. Nothing new there. Where's the art direction? Where's the atmosphere?
For me, this emphasises one of the problems with this kickstater - the defensive attitude a lot of the backers have (eloquently demonstrated by Duncan). The retrenchment into an isolated community that rapidly becomes an echo chamber and those with the temerity to criticise or ask questions are immediately accused of not getting it.
The question I ask is - why should I drop my money on this? Yes, Rik is involved, and for that you have held my attention and piqued my interest. However, why should I, or any other, give patronage? What makes this so special above any other game? The driven by the community thing, for me, is a turn off. It sounds like designed by committee to me. What else do you have to offer? Fluid Combat status - well this comes across a bit like unit activation (akin to Epic:A) as opposed to the UGOIGO we're all accustomed to. Nothing new there. Where's the art direction? Where's the atmosphere?
Sorry I posted the link because I thought it was help, I didnt mean that to be involved in the project it was in any way a requirement to join the site (I got over eager I guess).
At this stage I'm guessing you've already seen hansa and the freeborn for their art direction and want to see a more broad and universal art style as demonstrated by various in-universe pics and model art/greens? (hopefully that'll be coming soon as it was on the list of upcoming updates). As for atmosphere of the game that is one aspect that hasnt been explored too well yet I agree, we know a basis for some of the factions and why they fight, but no real state of the universe in play, the approach to battles etc that can give you a good thematic theme to your games. Its something the team could do with clarifying.
I agree that there are some very passionate pro/anti GoA backers that can draw attention away from those more subdued or informative ones but please do not assume that everyone is shouting down ideas, contrary to popular belief the forums at this stage arent ruled by those who shout the loudest.
To summarise I really do like this project and want to see it succeed, the art/greens/information thus far appeals to me and to some other backers but it is completely understandable to want more before making a sizable investment. I do however hope that those people wanting more will keep checking back as more updates come out and I'll post them up here so that you dont have to check the kickstarter page daily.
I dont think Rick stated he wanted to rival GW with this, well not at least for a good few years if its succesfull.
A lot of people jump on the 'GW-slayer' type wagon with MMO's saying they will all kill WOW etc, in the end they all dont, as wow was the first big one and is set in its ways, its comfy as it were.
Most new MMO's do okay and trickle on with the odd big success, i.e. guild wars.
With this i think its just start something new and see how it goes.
At this stage I'm guessing you've already seen hansa and the freeborn for their art direction and want to see a more broad and universal art style as demonstrated by various in-universe pics and model art/greens? (hopefully that'll be coming soon as it was on the list of upcoming updates). As for atmosphere of the game that is one aspect that hasnt been explored too well yet I agree, we know a basis for some of the factions and why they fight, but no real state of the universe in play, the approach to battles etc that can give you a good thematic theme to your games. Its something the team could do with clarifying.
I agree that there are some very passionate pro/anti GoA backers that can draw attention away from those more subdued or informative ones but please do not assume that everyone is shouting down ideas, contrary to popular belief the forums at this stage arent ruled by those who shout the loudest.
To summarise I really do like this project and want to see it succeed, the art/greens/information thus far appeals to me and to some other backers but it is completely understandable to want more before making a sizable investment. I do however hope that those people wanting more will keep checking back as more updates come out and I'll post them up here so that you dont have to check the kickstarter page daily.
Thanks
Indeed, and I was in for the limited rulebook and I do keep checking up on it. But it is missing that feeling, that compelling draw of the universe, that attachment to a certain faction that grows as your collection does. That's whats missing at present. It's very logical and clinical but not very emotional (if that makes sense)...
It would be more relevant IMO to look at Privateer Press, as a recent entrant into the market. Founded in 2000. Shocking I know, it seems like yesterday.
It has taken them at least 10 years to explode, develop and to attain their short term goals, they continue to push onwards and grow their business.
If BGoA/DSc, and their supporters want it to take off then they need to be in it for the long haul.
zedmeister wrote: But it is missing that feeling, that compelling draw of the universe, that attachment to a certain faction that grows as your collection does. That's whats missing at present. It's very logical and clinical but not very emotional (if that makes sense)...
Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. Aside from not a whole lot of models to show there's no "draw" to the universe yet.
My sort-of-first-contact with 40k was the reviews of the original Space Hulk video game. The pics and the reviews oozed a feel of a desperate, doomed battle, Space Marine terminators fighting in cramped metal corridors against a relentless xeno onslaught. Suitably "grimdark", as it were! And despite not even playing the game, that feeling always stuck with me and surfaced when I thought of 40k. It took me 'til 2012 to actually get into 40k (and realistically I wouldn't have had people to play with prior to 2006 anyway unless I had bought the armies for my brothers to play with), but the draw was always there ever since Space Hulk. Both to play and to expand my knowledge of the setting. And then when I got my hands on Space Marine during summer (I dabbled a few missions of DoW II even prior to Space Marine - but I'm not that much into RTS games as a genre so SM grabbed me more) the deal was sealed, so to speak.
For me, this emphasises one of the problems with this kickstater - the defensive attitude a lot of the backers have (eloquently demonstrated by Duncan). The retrenchment into an isolated community that rapidly becomes an echo chamber and those with the temerity to criticise or ask questions are immediately accused of not getting it.
Lets be honest, while there are some legitimate concerns one may have with this kickstarter, a lot of the criticism, especially in the last few pages, has been bordering on the ridiculous, and coupled with repeated chants of imminent doom about the project, really make it appear that some, who likely never would have invested in it anyway, are in many ways rooting for it to fail.
Vaktathi wrote: Lets be honest, while there are some legitimate concerns one may have with this kickstarter, a lot of the criticism, especially in the last few pages, has been bordering on the ridiculous, and coupled with repeated chants of imminent doom about the project, really make it appear that some, who likely never would have invested in it anyway, are in many ways rooting for it to fail.
Really?
You have an example for someone rooting for it to fail from those "last few pages"?
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Sorry, but you have to be quite stupid to assume that any company will "kill" GW in the next 5-7 years.
I distinctly remember some people saying Rick intended to rival 40k with this game. It was in fact being heralded as the new "40k-killer", though I don't know if Rick himself said as much or if it was just some over-enthusiastic supporters saying things they probably shouldn't have.
The only thing Rick P has said regarding 40k is that he'd consider GoA a tremendous success if they made it to 1% of GW (which I guess 1% of 200 million pounds eh?)
It's very interesting, this talk about how there isn't demand for female miniatures. Just a few moments ago I received an email from raging Heroes about their upcoming campaign on kickstarter, with the following point;
What happened to our other projects?
In the past year, we shared some of our plans for several upcoming releases. But many of them never made it to market. We thought you'd like a follow-up on this.
So, what's happened with our 7-Sins project, with our big monsters (dragon, phoenix, etc.), and with the damned and doomed Akzeltolt?
Well, in a simple rude phrase that we don't much like : lack of profitability.
Ouch, we've said it.
They're tough choices to make, but in the end, we do have to pay the rent every month :-(
And that's why, for now, we are focusing on our female miniatures because you seem to like them quite a bit, and you're finding many ways of including them in your games.
So you can expect to see many more of these in the next few months, in both Fantasy and SciFi.
(And if you want something specific in the female category, we are listening !)
Looks like its 100% guaranteed that the one thing that interested me about this project from the start isn't going to happen. I know its a niche field and maybe a little sad of me, but I really wanted to see an anthropomorphic race or at the very least a small squad of characters, mainly because it would fulfil an interest of mine I can't currently buy elsewhere. But after seeing crap like this http://www.darkspacecorp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=99&start=110" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.darkspacecorp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=99&start=110 (Page 12, 6th post), its obvious to say this project is moving quite squarely in the direction of "he who shouts the loudest, wins" and going by the attitudes of various posters in the GoA community, I think it's obvious I'm not going to ever click with this game and its crowd, hell just read the whole thread. At the end of the day it's not actually the whole "No Furries" thing that bugs me, it's just the inevitable blandness this game is going to turn into as a whole, so many people are so obsessed with throwing up "because Hard-Science" every two seconds as an excuse for their personal grievances that any unique or interesting ideas this project could have are dying a slow death. ...
That thread, along with the comments about female miniatures, is an excellent example of everything that seems wrong with this project. "hard scifi" is not a term used to shape the universe, but a cudgel for opinionated people to use to beat down things that they don't like (never minding how hard scifi in no way supports their arguments).
Every few pages I swing by this thread for updates to the KS and I'm constantly seeing furry comments and even made a joke about it earlier. Whats with all the furry interest in this project that you don't see in existing game threads and other kick starters? Is it just a vocal minority that heard about the whole "help us design the game" idea and thought that this was their moment or was/is there some sort of anthropomorphic theme in this game besides just space monkeys?
warboss wrote: Every few pages I swing by this thread for updates to the KS and I'm constantly seeing furry comments and even made a joke about it earlier. Whats with all the furry interest in this project that you don't see in existing game threads and other kick starters? Is it just a vocal minority that heard about the whole "help us design the game" idea and thought that this was their moment or was/is there some sort of anthropomorphic theme in this game besides just space monkeys?
I dunno. But I think it ties in with the idea of body-modification and transhumanism and having factions that don't look like they fell out of a drunken fight in a Weatherspoons carpark between groups of Firefly, Mass Effect and Generic Space Hobo cosplayers. Which is understandable. People want variety, and realistic-looking "furry" body-modders would certainly be different. And by people, I have no idea who I mean. I just assume people like having a bigger selection of stuff.
For what it's worth, I don't have a horse in this race. I'd like to see it succeed, but I'm content to wait for the rules to show up in the shops, as I'm already backing Rivet Wars and the new Warriors of Chaos are wondering if I'd like to finally start that chess-themed Tzeentch army. I will say what I have seen isn't bad (The green? Great stuff!) but hardly earth-shattering or enough to make me throw money at the screen. But the mechanics? Setting be damned, if the rules allow for easy conversion to other settings, I'm happy to pick it up. But I'm not hugely interested in helping the crowd build the setting - either my ideas are so terrible I'd never inflict them on anyone, or (I think) they're so brilliant I hoard them like precious gems. Except the intelligent housecats with opposable thumbs in humanoid robot battlesuits. That one's pure gold, but you're welcome to it, internet.
wildger wrote: They should have designed the green for War Drones first.
If enough people like it the KS soars to new heights. If too many don't it crashes and burns. But yes, given the importance of the WD's to so many armies....
Melcavuk wrote: Concord update will be coming today with Wardrones coming in tomorrow according to the kickstarter. Might be a little late but looking forward to both
Looking forward to that too.
I think they need to "learn" to create momentum with their updates though. The Space-Hobo thing was nice. Everyone like it. Than things went silent again.
I dunno. They just need to get a kind of Kickstarter-narrative going. Monday to Thursday, artwork updates. Friday a big public poll on which artwork should go to the sculptors first. Saturday a fluff/game-mechanic update. Sunday a first early green from a tired sculptor based on the friday-poll. Next Monday, start again. Get a wave going.
I know people have been asking for updates, especially of the visual kind. And they are nice. But once a week without "follow-up" tied to the artwork makes them fizzle.
Yes I agree Zweischneid, think they could definitely do with a few more project managers. Sadly I've not been able to bring any news from the KS the last few days - Sedition Wars arrived, and I attended a miniature convention so have been up to my neck in new toys already
Melcavuk wrote: Concord update will be coming today with Wardrones coming in tomorrow according to the kickstarter. Might be a little late but looking forward to both
warboss wrote: Every few pages I swing by this thread for updates to the KS and I'm constantly seeing furry comments and even made a joke about it earlier. Whats with all the furry interest in this project that you don't see in existing game threads and other kick starters? Is it just a vocal minority that heard about the whole "help us design the game" idea and thought that this was their moment or was/is there some sort of anthropomorphic theme in this game besides just space monkeys?
For me it was this picture:
I am NOT into Furrys. Not my thing. But as I posted earlier, I've always thought the Kzinti, and a few other cat like Alien races were cool. The cat like critter in the picture made me think that it would be fun to have a Kzinti like army, which would be unique for games out there.
What isn't unique is generic muscle men with guns.
warboss wrote: Every few pages I swing by this thread for updates to the KS and I'm constantly seeing furry comments and even made a joke about it earlier. Whats with all the furry interest in this project that you don't see in existing game threads and other kick starters? Is it just a vocal minority that heard about the whole "help us design the game" idea and thought that this was their moment or was/is there some sort of anthropomorphic theme in this game besides just space monkeys?
The theme is kinda baked right into the cake. That is, the official concept art is difficult to describe as anything but anthro. There is not a lot of concept art of anything, but they bothered to do some for some feline-humanoids.
Spoiler:
EDIT: beat to it! Anyway, yeah, the furry references are based on the fact that the Panhuman faction is... as near as anything as been described, having some things that are, prima facia, human-animal hybrids.
The start of drone greens is now up on the kickstarter:
Hi brilliant backers! Thank you very much for being a part of this, we're constantly humbled by the shear amount of creativity within the forums and the support you guys are giving us, we'll make it yet!
Today's update is the one you've been waiting for - Kev has started on our WarDrone model! We'll be modelling a number of WarDrones as we refine towards our plastic version. The others will be used for faction specific WarDrones or specific function WarDrones like the Hunter or Targetter WarDrone. This is stage 1, and just like Hansa, Kev will be taking us through his creative thought process as he builds it(him?).
Would like to see more anthro-cats (and no, I'm not a furry, but I don't think there's anything wrong with either furries or anthro-cats), and some female soldiers.
The wardrones looks like it's off to a good start, I wonder how many opitions the plastic kit will come with, also very curious to see how the whole "solid, but see-through" element comes through in the final sculpt, sounds like a difficult idea to get right.
I honestly don't care what races are in the game. It could be furries and cybersmurfs and CVzombies and s&m lollipop ladies for all I care. I want a good, generic, sci fi wargame. None exist right now that fills that void. The closest would be Stargrunt and Tomorrow's War, but these have their own share of problems (I do like a point system for pick up games, don't always have the time to create balanced scenarios). I am in this project because I trust Priestley's rules writing abilties, as I'm in love with the last half-dozen rulesets he's written. I already own large forces of Urban War Viridians, Pig Iron troopers, and Copplestone Assault Troopers, all with mixes of Antenociti's Workshop vehicles, etc.
I haven't seen anything where GoA requires you to use their miniatures when playing the game; what's to stop anyone from using pre-existing furry minis or greenstuffing tails onto the plastic wardrones?
That's a great idea! I honestly didn't think of it that way, even if the GoA sculpts/concepts are only half decent at the very least they could make good conversion fuel, alter what you don't like, bring in a few counts-as miniatures, maybe even create a bits pack to covert the wardrones (similar to all the space marine resin bits that are around) and BAM you have the army of monsters/aliens/furries/space zombies/space cats you want. As long as the rules are good and the conversions fit the general look of the universe it should be very possible to do and quite fun. Awesome I'll make sure I get a pledge in for the rulebooks (and maybe a few miniatures) at the very least.
But fluffy tails on wardrones?...... now that's just silly.
-----Edit-----
Ugh... just re-read the post I made last night, wow I really was in a bad mood, I wrote a whole load of unfounded and frankly unnecessary BS. Sorry guys, honestly really sorry, just edited it.
-----Edit-----
So, is the Wardrone sculpt based on a particulat concept that has been tossed around on the development boards? Last I saw were some concepts that had some decent ideas, but mostly looked like Go-Bots stole some weapons from the masters of the universe.
Due to public demand the team have opened up a poll on the inclusion of female models in the kickstarters rewards, there has been a significant number of people expressing interest in the option of the team reconsidering so the poll with gauge if there is a true demand:
Rick's stated goal is for the women in this game to be as equally integrated into the background as the men, and for their proportions to be anatomically realistic as opposed to the approach some other companies have taken. He commented on how the production of female miniatures would not be as much of a launch priority due to female miniatures historically having proven to be less desirable purchases. There has been some posting in various locations that there may be a higher level of interest in female figures than they are aware of, however, and DSC has said they are willing to reevaluate their position and produce female miniatures faster if there is sufficient interest. Keep in mind, this is to help steer production plans, NOT a contract graven in stone. Here's a link to the poll and discussion on the inclusion of female miniatures: http://www.darkspacecorp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1055
Thanks for the heads up Melcavuk, just put a vote in "for up to 50%", it would be a shame not to see a decent female presence in this universe, who knows if we really push our luck we could get a female leader.
Vaktathi wrote: Lets be honest, while there are some legitimate concerns one may have with this kickstarter, a lot of the criticism, especially in the last few pages, has been bordering on the ridiculous, and coupled with repeated chants of imminent doom about the project, really make it appear that some, who likely never would have invested in it anyway, are in many ways rooting for it to fail.
Really?
You have an example for someone rooting for it to fail from those "last few pages"?
Here you go:
chris_valera wrote: I'm having fun over at the Gates of Antares official forums:
<SNIP>
I am going to laugh so hard when this thing fething fails.
"Here we are / We sail on a ship made of dreams / Going fething nowhere..."
Sidstyler wrote: Oh big deal, one guy outright says he wants it to fail, hardly means the entire forum is wishing doom on this thing.
Is that what Vaktathi said?
Not to be pedantic, but what Chris said isn't that he wanted it to fail, but rather that it was stupendously likely to fail and it would be funny ("I am going to laugh so hard when this thing fething fails"). there is no accounting for humor, but his assessment is difficult to dispute.
Spoiler:
Not to say it deserves to fail, but surely it's now reached the point of being objectively true that this campaign has been badly managed.As an example, consider that poll posted above... posted by a random user here, posted by a random backer in the comments section of the campaign. Why? This is theoretically a huge deal, why isn't the poll in an update, which would direct the attention of the entire backer base to it, and would be readily available to be seen by non-backers. The managers didn't push it because... something.
It also reinforces the painfully raw impression that the managers don't know what they are doing. Rick mentions that there probably isn't enough commercial appeal for female models the way they want as part of the initial campaign. Okay, he's the professional, presumably that statement was based on something. But now, suddenly, public demand has caused them to reassess this? Where? In the Kickstarter forum on their own forums*? Why did Rick just rethink this? Was he just making it up earlier? Had a little snoot full and made something up? They do a 180 on a very expensive and difficult topic, because...?
Yeash.
*As an aside, perhaps one of the reasons this campaign is sputtering along is that it's intensely focused on the community aspect... but has one of the most poorly laid-out forums I've ever seen. Seriously, those are just terrible...
Dang, say what you will about CMON's origins, they know how to run a kickstarter.
GoA definitely needed to have sculpts for everything ready to show.
Although I wonder if their difficulties also has something to do with the fact this GoA is actually more of a traditional wargame, with more set factions.
What I mean is, a lot of kickstarters out there that have done super well are for board game-like experiences, basically more of a boxed game. Then, each goal they have can just add on more stuff to the box, or for higher level pledges. Everyone gets the same extra things and can make use of them.
The Kingdom Death Monster KS is an example of this. It's definitely a minaitures game, but also very much a boxed board-game style game.
I wonder if there have been some really succcessful kickstarters for traditional faction based games.
Vertrucio wrote: Dang, say what you will about CMON's origins, they know how to run a kickstarter.
GoA definitely needed to have sculpts for everything ready to show.
Although I wonder if their difficulties also has something to do with the fact this GoA is actually more of a traditional wargame, with more set factions.
What I mean is, a lot of kickstarters out there that have done super well are for board game-like experiences, basically more of a boxed game. Then, each goal they have can just add on more stuff to the box, or for higher level pledges. Everyone gets the same extra things and can make use of them.
The Kingdom Death Monster KS is an example of this. It's definitely a minaitures game, but also very much a boxed board-game style game.
I wonder if there have been some really succcessful kickstarters for traditional faction based games.
The best example is probably Relic Knights, which is a complete relaunch of a mostly established gaming system, so there were loads of models and concept art to show off.
The reality of the situation is that, but for a single, stupendously foolish decision, this campaign would be an unqualified success: that decision was setting the funding level at 300k GBP. Based on little more then Priestly's name they raised 85k or so, which, let's put in perspective, would already be pretty high for a niche release. But they didn't want a niche release: they have basically committed to not just doing everything that something like Dreamforge did, they want to do that times 3 (or however many factions they have).
Seriously, Dreamforge took $200k (about, 130k GBP?) to basically release a single faction of the Iron Core universe in total in plastic. But the second faction and the game are parceled out to upcoming campaigns. Beyond, in contrast, is doing the entire thing all at once.
Edit: Dang, got ninja'd hard on the Relic Knights reference. But if you want a pure table top non-skirmish game, Iron Core may be the closest you'll find, and even that was basically just the Eisenkern faction (a single, LE model for the second faction).
I am the only one who gets more interested in this as time goes on?
The concept art is coming together and the new Wardrone sculpt is starting the look very nice already (reminds me of the good Tau stuff from FW).
Furries or not there look to be enough factions to keep me interested and this game could be the one that finally cures my 40k addiction (surely worth a few hundred quid on its own?).
They actually appear to be listening to requests for more concept art, greens etc (my only hope is that this gets the project moving).
The only potentially terminal failure is a £300K startpoint with no growth - an extra mini or two to sweeten the deal might be needed at this stage.
02Laney wrote: I am the only one who gets more interested in this as time goes on?
My interest hasn't waned at all since I pledged to this Kickstarter. I'm not commenting because I don't have much to say that would actually contribute to the conversation, and I'm not all that anxious for zombies in the game, but I enjoy watching the project develop.
Buzzsaw wrote: It's very interesting, this talk about how there isn't demand for female miniatures.
The funniest thing about that? "You can't get enough female miniatures in our opinion." And where's that from?
Dun dun dun......
From the BTGOA kickstarter page!
Not that I don't believe you, but where?
Can you quote it for us?
Ouch!
Buzzsaw wrote: Not to say it deserves to fail, but surely it's now reached the point of being objectively true that this campaign has been badly managed.As an example, consider that poll posted above... posted by a random user here, posted by a random backer in the comments section of the campaign. Why? This is theoretically a huge deal, why isn't the poll in an update, which would direct the attention of the entire backer base to it, and would be readily available to be seen by non-backers. The managers didn't push it because... something.
It also reinforces the painfully raw impression that the managers don't know what they are doing. Rick mentions that there probably isn't enough commercial appeal for female models the way they want as part of the initial campaign. Okay, he's the professional, presumably that statement was based on something. But now, suddenly, public demand has caused them to reassess this? Where? In the Kickstarter forum on their own forums*? Why did Rick just rethink this? Was he just making it up earlier? Had a little snoot full and made something up? They do a 180 on a very expensive and difficult topic, because...?
Yeash.
Hey sorry, The Poll was posted up by a forum mod on the Dark Space Forums because it was decided that gauging community interest after a few people both here and there stated that there was a real demand for female miniatures. I then cross posted it both on Dakka and Kickstarters, whilst I am a moderator over on Dark Space forums I a just a random backer both here and Dakka. In short yes whilst it appears the transfer of the polls and the spread of information was random it was undertaken by members of the forum team over there to here.
02Laney wrote:I am the only one who gets more interested in this as time goes on?
The concept art is coming together and the new Wardrone sculpt is starting the look very nice already (reminds me of the good Tau stuff from FW).
Furries or not there look to be enough factions to keep me interested and this game could be the one that finally cures my 40k addiction (surely worth a few hundred quid on its own?).
They actually appear to be listening to requests for more concept art, greens etc (my only hope is that this gets the project moving).
The only potentially terminal failure is a £300K startpoint with no growth - an extra mini or two to sweeten the deal might be needed at this stage.
I'm in and hope this gets moving!
Laney
You arent the only one, there are alot of people very happy with the updates that are coming out, and yet more hoping that the finished wardrones are enough to make them pledge. It may seem like alot of negative comments but those are the ones that spark alot of debate. In short, I think the number of people who want to see the project fail are in the minority, there are however alot who would like to see some things done differently (forum organisation, more greens etc).
To all the guys freaking about this only being a 1/3rd of the way there, isn't this how, well, all kickstarters work?
I remember people predicting doom and gloom for the Dreamforge one because a month out it was real low, and in the last week or so it shot up like crazy.
A lot of people wait until "the last minute" to pledge, or pledge a very low amount and then add to it once they're sure what they want. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see the kickstarter pledges ramp up as the release date gets closer.
As for the game itself, what's going to make or break it for me is the models. Other guys at my store are showing interest in it (including some VERY die hard 40k players) so a good miniature line is what will sell me on it. The heavy reliance on drones worries me, as I'd like to use 100% human forces if possible. Maybe they'll have a rebel/wastelander/pirate faction that can't afford drones though. That would probably be the push I need to go in.
Could care less about the furry "issue". I hate eldar but I never whine about that. Some people like them, and it doesn't hurt anything by them being in. If you end up facing one, you get to crush them on the battlefield, so its a win win. Don't see why everyone has their panties in a knot over it. Live and let Live.
scarletsquig wrote: I find it hilarious how this thread is being held up as an example of "Dakka is being really mean and nasty to a KS".
You guys have never spent 5 minutes in a Mantic KS thread, have you?
Compared to those, this thread is really tame and highly positive/ supportive of the project.
True.
Or, probably more appropriately, Blue Table Painting. It's the only Kickstarter I remember where people (not only Dakka, but including Dakka) actively worked to bring it down. Or, as it were, rooting for it to fail.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MrMoustaffa wrote: To all the guys freaking about this only being a 1/3rd of the way there, isn't this how, well, all kickstarters work?
I remember people predicting doom and gloom for the Dreamforge one because a month out it was real low, and in the last week or so it shot up like crazy.
Perhaps.
But DreamForge didn't just "shoot up like crazy" without doing anything. The published 2 to 3 digital render updates a day. They actively included stuff people were asking for. They walked the extra mile (or 10, or 100), and were rewarded with success.
Can GoA do a comeback? Sure. But these don't just "happen" (and not all succeed, see ShadowSea).
But like other comeback Kickstarters, they need to change the way they do things to make that comeback. And for that, above all, it would be worthwhile looking at other successful Kickstarters. Which they continuously refuse to do.
They tried to re-invent how these things work. Kudos to them for having the balls to do it differently. But it is clear that it isn't working, nor is there enough time to experiment with yet another "new way of doing things". To copycat the framework provided by others is their best bet now (And isn't that the best thing about Kickstarter? It offers a comparably easy to understand rote-template for raising start-up cash for your game!). Entrepreneurs 10 years ago would've sold their grandmother for such a near-fool-proof raise-money-by-numbers approach).
To be fair, Chris does a lot of trolling anyway. This is a post of him gloating that he's going to troll elsewhere. He's hardly representative of those of us who would like it to succeed but find the campaign flawed (Buzzsaw, Zwei, Alph, myself, etc)...
MrMoustaffa wrote: As for the game itself, what's going to make or break it for me is the models. Other guys at my store are showing interest in it (including some VERY die hard 40k players) so a good miniature line is what will sell me on it. The heavy reliance on drones worries me, as I'd like to use 100% human forces if possible. Maybe they'll have a rebel/wastelander/pirate faction that can't afford drones though. That would probably be the push I need to go in.
You don't *have* to use Drones for anyone. The example lists they put up don't use any drones at all. If you're looking for more of a rebel/wastelander faction then you'd be looking at the Freeborn, a loose alliance of smaller worlds that can't really interface properly with the high end technology like the Wardrones.
You don't *have* to use Drones for anyone. The example lists they put up don't use any drones at all. If you're looking for more of a rebel/wastelander faction then you'd be looking at the Freeborn, a loose alliance of smaller worlds that can't really interface properly with the high end technology like the Wardrones.
Doesn't change the fact that you still get shipped 40 drones with each Feeder pledge.
Zweischneid wrote: Doesn't change the fact that you still get shipped 40 drones with each Feeder pledge.
Yeah, it'd make more sense to just add more credits with which to buy drones or something else. Gotta at least hope that the drones will look cool.
Though I'm thinking I'll wait until the 28th of February to see if I'll pledge anyway. I assume the pledging ends at midnight of some timezone or another? Can't pledge on the 27th since I'll only have money on the 28th And for this month, other things to spend on!
You don't *have* to use Drones for anyone. The example lists they put up don't use any drones at all. If you're looking for more of a rebel/wastelander faction then you'd be looking at the Freeborn, a loose alliance of smaller worlds that can't really interface properly with the high end technology like the Wardrones.
Doesn't change the fact that you still get shipped 40 drones with each Feeder pledge.
If you don't like the drones you could pledge for the rulebook and add credits instead.
You don't *have* to use Drones for anyone. The example lists they put up don't use any drones at all. If you're looking for more of a rebel/wastelander faction then you'd be looking at the Freeborn, a loose alliance of smaller worlds that can't really interface properly with the high end technology like the Wardrones.
Doesn't change the fact that you still get shipped 40 drones with each Feeder pledge.
Depending on how good they look, drones should be pretty eacy to trade or sell.
Honestly i'm not even interested in a "GW/WOW killer".
All I'd like to see is a decent set of rules in an expansive universe with something that you can actually throw down on the table and have fun with.
What am I seeing in this KS? Star Mogul.
Unless they have something on tap, why exactly should I have to wait around kicking sand waiting for vaporware?
Serious as a heart attack, is it too much to ask for just 3 or 4 base units, and a character or two to go with? And wait around for a rules set? Whats that about?
I can go online right now and crank out seven to ten other scifi games out there that have online pdf's available right this second.
I really wish Rick would step up the game here, especially when you throw down the gauntlet on something that looks like they want to do the EVE tabletop miniatures game.
Hansa is ok, don't get me wrong, but I might as well pick up a few units of those space dwarf guys from Kev White, if I really want to get down to brass tacks.
the squatties and thier mech.
I'm on it for Sedition wars, as a matter of fact, What is this particular project going to bring to the table that THAT one doesn't have???
Grot 6 wrote: Honestly i'm not even interested in a "GW/WOW killer".
All I'd like to see is a decent set of rules in an expansive universe with something that you can actually throw down on the table and have fun with.
What am I seeing in this KS? Star Mogul.
Unless they have something on tap, why exactly should I have to wait around kicking sand waiting for vaporware?
Serious as a heart attack, is it too much to ask for just 3 or 4 base units, and a character or two to go with? And wait around for a rules set? Whats that about?
I can go online right now and crank out seven to ten other scifi games out there that have online pdf's available right this second.
I really wish Rick would step up the game here, especially when you throw down the gauntlet on something that looks like they want to do the EVE tabletop miniatures game.
Hansa is ok, don't get me wrong, but I might as well pick up a few units of those space dwarf guys from Kev White, if I really want to get down to brass tacks.
the squatties and thier mech.
I'm on it for Sedition wars, as a matter of fact, What is this particular project going to bring to the table that THAT one doesn't have???
Hold on, I'm confused, we are waiting for the rules set because it doesnt exist yet, thats the main point of the KS, to develop a game system and rules using D10 and base a set of miniatures and a game universe around it.
This isnt just a models KS, its creating a whole game system. Okay originality is very difficult nowadays, but EVE online is a pretty good analogy and its a great universe (too many hours lost mining in that game!)
Stating you can go online and get 10 pdf rules is fine, but they wont be the rules for GoA, its like saying you can get infinity rules so why do GW make any, im not trying to be antagonistic, im just curious why you seem to think the rules are a bit of a waste and it should be models first.
You can pick up as many or as few models as you want, but that would be when they go on general sale, the KS bundles are always a bit of a set box i have found, apart from stretch goals, which we dont know if GoA will be doing. And we are supposed to be getting pdf versions of the alpha - beta etc rules once funded so we should see them in March.
Hold on, I'm confused, we are waiting for the rules set because it doesnt exist yet, thats the main point of the KS, to develop a game system and rules using D10 and base a set of miniatures and a game universe around it.
Basically if I want rules, I have to pledge, even though the rules may end up not being to my taste?
The factions seem okay, and may be worth putting in for when I see a few greens, if at all.
If you don't like the drones you could pledge for the rulebook and add credits instead.
Or I could simply pledge for the rulebook and buy miniatures when they are released. Or wait entirely. Its kinda missing the point that Drones are a major part of the Feeder box deal that's supposed to reel in new backers.
Depending on how good they look, drones should be pretty eacy to trade or sell.
Sure. So why aren't you pledging on the Rivet Wars Kickstarter? If you don't like it, you might try to trade it for some GoA stuff next Winter. Or Space Marines. Or whatever.
The Kickstarter is for a generic sandbox game. Scifi, with a little bit of this and that in it.
You want to sell a game, you need to have AT THE MINIMUM, 3 or so sets, and a couple of extra characters. So it is written, so it is done.
I didn't make that up, you need to have a baseline to start from, and this deal about "HE who shouts the loudest gets the attention" might work well on that side of the pond, but in my world, you get what sells.
I want to have something like trenchcoat raider here, I want to know what hes going to bring to the table. Is that a multipart kit? can I add him into other units? Is he some sort of special weapon troop? etc.etc.etc...
And Yeah, What this is looks to me like EVE on the tabletop. You want to make it into, "I want such and such a amount of money to make a couple of guys and a rules set? Like I said, Rules sets are not brain surgery here. I commented about the ten off the top of my head based solely on how ... Generic... rules sets really are.
Along with that, THIS isn't a video game we're talking here, either. You are saying pretty much that the master of rules design NEEDS such and such, based on a rules set that doesn't exist.
Yes, D 10's, some fluff, and a couple of greens are in order, but come on, are you seriously going to sit there and say that "YOU THE COMMUNITY..." are going to do it all? and without even a decision of a left and right limit on what exactly your project is?
I can see it as "Yes, I have a set of rules, this is the generic system, YOU out there need to decide on what your interested in as far as the structure of the units and army. Do you want A or B? If so, what about B and C or A and C."
What I think the hardest thing I see is that it is taking so slow to get to the point where you even have the 2 units, and 2 special characters.
WHY exactly, when your supposed to be funding a game that it has nothing in the pipe? I want to wait around for this because......?
The rules already exist, your mistaken there. Just because we haven't seen them doesn't give much when there is already discussion and talk about exactly how the game plays.
The main part of the KS is the sticking point as well...
Like I said, we're looking at EVE on the table here. You can backpeddle it, spin it, or whatever, but your looking at a few factions, no known unit types, weapons, or structure, and a vision for a universe with some gate structure with a reason to push these guys altogether. If not EVE, then your looking at War planet, where you have a battlefield, 3-4 armies, and a reason to fight over some resources.They can start with sticks and stones, for all I care, how exactly am I going to get some kills here? Do I get a tank to go with my units?
And UNLESS I see something of this nature, I honestly don't see a whole lot that needs that much money, Time not included.
Want to sell me on a kickstarter? You better have at least two factions, minimum, or three units of troops already, two or three special characters, and options for each.
You want to fund a "WOW killer" tabletop? Then have miniatures to bring to the table before you show anything else.
Heck, even throw the Kev White squattie guys with mechs in there, at least then you have something to base the game off of as far as structure and something tangable, not to mention a structured faction ready made for the table and a place to go from.
If not the squattis, then so be it for a base line human army.
"Here is the troopers, heres a special character, he comes from the degba system, and he's a swampie." WHY SHOULD I CARE ABOUT THIS GUY, BY THE WAY? What makes him unique? How many of the special guys can I get with each unit? etc.etc.etc.
THIS late in the game? There has to be something of substance. By now in past KS's, we're already into the Add X,Y, or Z for $20.00-25.00. This should be the time where people are contacting thier friends to kick in, because "Hey, you have to check this out!!!"
Look at how the KD game went. Yes, you already have it as a given that Adam there seems to have a ample supply and established rep for high end minis, but the intangibles were put out there and laid to rest within WEEK 1.
No mention of vehicles, no mention of flyers, no mention of ships, transports, animals for planet X, nothing but a couple of pictures of troop A, B, C. Then one green.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not the one trying to be a troll here, but I actually was interested in this one... UNTIL i started reading through the fluffie fluff, and reading some of the stuff on thier forum.
Want a laugh, go on over and see how it goes as how there is no structure whatsoever or serious discussion on tangibles.
Want to sell me a rules set? Then bring more to the table then some dice and pictures at this point. WEEKSA of nothing is not bodeing well for progress, even IF you get funding.
It is bottom line about generating interest and pushing forward with what you have on hand. Even with a 100.00, I could have had thre or four things on paper, and developing BEFORE I even cosidered putting in for a KS project.
"I want to do this..." yes, thats fine, but what do you have already developed? Supposedly this is somnething special? How special is it, then. Obviously special enought that you have some tangible efforts on deck? More then just talk about what you want to do?
Aside from something clever like... "I hope they have some special dice for us special people that FUNDED the project, hope to have TWO special dice and a book."
Not trying to sound hostile, I'm serious as a heart attack. I can see at least five things at least that would generate interest.
Want more money to the KS? How about a unit of the leather jacketed syndacate guys, then. How about a team of the freebooter rebels.
"5 guys in a team, this is what they have for a gun, this is their ability for the army set. They have a bot, he does this."
Whats so wrong with gathering up a couple of minis, and playing out some basics, anyway? "This is how you shoot someone, you take this dice, you ride it with this ability, you roll a number, and this is a hit. You lose a arm, or take a wound or whatever...."
I want to do this, but because you won't bite, I can't"... is not going to even get more then a look, then move on to my other KS with a couple of minis, a set of dice, a PDF thats already avalable, and units A, B, and C as add ons for $20.00.
Your confused, as well rick.
The rules are already there. We're supposedly funding intangables here if you didn't read the material on hand.
(Your left and right limit is that you get the armies, and send in some stuff that worked, basic playtesting/ development stuff.)
The confusion is in the design of the KS, where in point of fact the general structure of the project is lacking, if there at all.
-edited, because i'm pretty hot after reading through the stuff available and seeing the lack of direction blaitently obvious to someone who isn't tied to it, BUT wants it to succeed, based on some of the stuff I'd seen in the beginning. Seriously, Add more to the site, or pull this project until you have at a minimum one unit per base faction, with more in the kittie, and a couple of special characters.
Grot 6 wrote: Honestly i'm not even interested in a "GW/WOW killer".
All I'd like to see is a decent set of rules in an expansive universe with something that you can actually throw down on the table and have fun with.
What am I seeing in this KS? Star Mogul.
Unless they have something on tap, why exactly should I have to wait around kicking sand waiting for vaporware?
Serious as a heart attack, is it too much to ask for just 3 or 4 base units, and a character or two to go with? And wait around for a rules set? Whats that about?
I can go online right now and crank out seven to ten other scifi games out there that have online pdf's available right this second.
I really wish Rick would step up the game here, especially when you throw down the gauntlet on something that looks like they want to do the EVE tabletop miniatures game.
Hansa is ok, don't get me wrong, but I might as well pick up a few units of those space dwarf guys from Kev White, if I really want to get down to brass tacks.
the squatties and thier mech.
I'm on it for Sedition wars, as a matter of fact, What is this particular project going to bring to the table that THAT one doesn't have???
Hold on, I'm confused, we are waiting for the rules set because it doesnt exist yet, thats the main point of the KS, to develop a game system and rules using D10 and base a set of miniatures and a game universe around it.
This isnt just a models KS, its creating a whole game system. Okay originality is very difficult nowadays, but EVE online is a pretty good analogy and its a great universe (too many hours lost mining in that game!)
Stating you can go online and get 10 pdf rules is fine, but they wont be the rules for GoA, its like saying you can get infinity rules so why do GW make any, im not trying to be antagonistic, im just curious why you seem to think the rules are a bit of a waste and it should be models first.
...
....
Yes but what is going to be different about GoA? What will make it any more worthwhile to play than other games.
I'm another person who has 10 SF rulesets already on the shelf. If I am to punt £25 I would like to see more than a couple of high level concepts.
I think they have some good stuff but there is too little detail at the moment to know.
Aye, the Syndicate guy looks pretty good, but what does he do?
What happened to the "Scruffy nerf herder" guys? Whats the timeline on that drone green/ casting?
Etc.etc.
and Viridians is right. I picked up one such game VOID, as well, only to see IT die on the vine before it could even go anywhere because of all the scattergun techniques of throwing up a hairball.
Guy who sold it to me SWORE it was going places, and was great! Had another game, with a few UN troopers and some terminator type army that's name escapes me.... Even yet another one with roman Legion in space with hover tanks....
Thats the thing, though. so many ideas... so little resources to push the idea with.
Base question for a race is - What is that? What does it do? How many do I need? What do they have for guns/ weapons?
How about that for the ones we've seen so far? ANy open discussion on the forum for each? How about some theory-hammering of them, then?
In hindsight, I might sound off like I'm trying to be some sort of assclown over this project. I apologise if that seems the case, but the efforts and work so far are just really offputting that it is really putting a kick in the hindquarter to the KS project to not really be seeing much of anything, other then a tease picture that you could throw off in a few minutes...
So I'm sorry if it seems harsh, but we're looking at something on KS that made itself out to be something it isn't. Especially with the high expectations, I do wish to see MORE.
Well, yeah, I have plenty of cool models from other systems I use with anything; I'm not brainwashed by the 40k HHHHobby mentality. I'm in this for the rules and maybe cuz I'll get some cool models. Looks like there's a good chance I will get another sci-fi army for my collection with the 3C troopers. Just need matching vehicles...
Large volume of points i shant re-print with the quote
.
Fair enough i was simply confused as i thought you meant that the rules set shouldnt have been part of the KS, i read you wrong twas all.
I think the EVE online 'not IINNN SSPPAACCEE!' view is valid and actually would have been a more interesting hook, though CCP would obviously have made it more interesting in terms of funding and being THEIR licence etc.
However a solid rule set will be something i would like to see, especially if they can make it balanced, as many of my gaming mates have stopped playing 40k/fant and stick to blood bowl, they would like a good skirmish game that is easy to balance, and thats what i am in this KS for.
I have said before this week will kill or make this KS, if the wardrones and more concept art, followed by greens about that art keep coming thick and fast then many will be appeased and will fund, however if the wardrone comes out, then another week of not much, then another green of say a rever\great cloak guy, thats only 3 greens for a box that is supposed to contain what 35 odd mini's?
So i am giving the game the benefit of the doubt, i like thge fluff, i like hansa but if the drones and more progress doesnt come out about variety of standard guys, not just characters, i may pull funding i hope not, i have seen some great ideas on the forums, but they are a bit disjointed, the "...and YOU" bit could be a curse for Dark Space Corp, they may have been better saying, these are our factions, and basic rules, we want you to help design the faction look etc, that way its the shiny bit most see that the community has a hand in, and then work out playtesting one the rules have been released.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Every sketch and concept I have seen so far for this game reminds me of some other game or scifi genre.... at43, star wars, planet of the apes, 40k, etc....even the bald dude mini reminded me of the german mechanic from indiana jones that went in the propelker......
warboss wrote: Every few pages I swing by this thread for updates to the KS and I'm constantly seeing furry comments and even made a joke about it earlier. Whats with all the furry interest in this project that you don't see in existing game threads and other kick starters? Is it just a vocal minority that heard about the whole "help us design the game" idea and thought that this was their moment or was/is there some sort of anthropomorphic theme in this game besides just space monkeys?
For me it was this picture:
I am NOT into Furrys. Not my thing. But as I posted earlier, I've always thought the Kzinti, and a few other cat like Alien races were cool. The cat like critter in the picture made me think that it would be fun to have a Kzinti like army, which would be unique for games out there.
What isn't unique is generic muscle men with guns.
Zweischneid wrote: Doesn't change the fact that you still get shipped 40 drones with each Feeder pledge.
Yeah, it'd make more sense to just add more credits with which to buy drones or something else. Gotta at least hope that the drones will look cool.
Though I'm thinking I'll wait until the 28th of February to see if I'll pledge anyway. I assume the pledging ends at midnight of some timezone or another? Can't pledge on the 27th since I'll only have money on the 28th And for this month, other things to spend on!
Funding for the project ends at Thursday Feb 28, 6:00pm EST.
krazynadechukr wrote: Every sketch and concept I have seen so far for this game reminds me of some other game or scifi genre.... at43, star wars, planet of the apes, 40k, etc....even the bald dude mini reminded me of the german mechanic from indiana jones that went in the propelker......
That's it! I knew Hansa reminded me of someone, but couldn't put my finger on it. Unintentional, I'm sure, but striking nonetheless. On a sidenote, where is that second picture from? That looks like a cool system.
A few posters here have really hit the issues of this kickstarter on the head. Why should I give money to GoA and not someone else? Sci-fi rulesets are easy to find, and rulesets in general are easy to adapt. My club did it all the time in high school. That leaves the miniatures. If they're good, I'll get some. If not, I'll go with someone else's minis. The problem is, though, that I have no idea either way. There is one decent model, and a few generic sketches. A beautiful model range could come from this, but it could all be awful just as easily. It all begs the question: Why GoA? Why not Sedition Wars, or Infinity, or hell, why not good old-fashioned 40k? There just isn't anything compelling here.
krazynadechukr wrote: Every sketch and concept I have seen so far for this game reminds me of some other game or scifi genre.... at43, star wars, planet of the apes, 40k, etc....even the bald dude mini reminded me of the german mechanic from indiana jones that went in the propelker......
That's it! I knew Hansa reminded me of someone, but couldn't put my finger on it. Unintentional, I'm sure, but striking nonetheless. On a sidenote, where is that second picture from? That looks like a cool system.
krazynadechukr wrote: Every sketch and concept I have seen so far for this game reminds me of some other game or scifi genre.... at43, star wars, planet of the apes, 40k, etc....even the bald dude mini reminded me of the german mechanic from indiana jones that went in the propelker......
That's it! I knew Hansa reminded me of someone, but couldn't put my finger on it. Unintentional, I'm sure, but striking nonetheless. On a sidenote, where is that second picture from? That looks like a cool system.
Melcavuk wrote: Due to public demand the team have opened up a poll on the inclusion of female models in the kickstarters rewards, there has been a significant number of people expressing interest in the option of the team reconsidering so the poll with gauge if there is a true demand:
Rick's stated goal is for the women in this game to be as equally integrated into the background as the men, and for their proportions to be anatomically realistic as opposed to the approach some other companies have taken. He commented on how the production of female miniatures would not be as much of a launch priority due to female miniatures historically having proven to be less desirable purchases. There has been some posting in various locations that there may be a higher level of interest in female figures than they are aware of, however, and DSC has said they are willing to reevaluate their position and produce female miniatures faster if there is sufficient interest. Keep in mind, this is to help steer production plans, NOT a contract graven in stone. Here's a link to the poll and discussion on the inclusion of female miniatures: http://www.darkspacecorp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1055
Buzzsaw wrote: Not to say it deserves to fail, but surely it's now reached the point of being objectively true that this campaign has been badly managed.As an example, consider that poll posted above... posted by a random user here, posted by a random backer in the comments section of the campaign. Why? This is theoretically a huge deal, why isn't the poll in an update, which would direct the attention of the entire backer base to it, and would be readily available to be seen by non-backers. The managers didn't push it because... something.
It also reinforces the painfully raw impression that the managers don't know what they are doing. Rick mentions that there probably isn't enough commercial appeal for female models the way they want as part of the initial campaign. Okay, he's the professional, presumably that statement was based on something. But now, suddenly, public demand has caused them to reassess this? Where? In the Kickstarter forum on their own forums*? Why did Rick just rethink this? Was he just making it up earlier? Had a little snoot full and made something up? They do a 180 on a very expensive and difficult topic, because...?
Yeash.
Hey sorry, The Poll was posted up by a forum mod on the Dark Space Forums because it was decided that gauging community interest after a few people both here and there stated that there was a real demand for female miniatures. I then cross posted it both on Dakka and Kickstarters, whilst I am a moderator over on Dark Space forums I a just a random backer both here and Dakka. In short yes whilst it appears the transfer of the polls and the spread of information was random it was undertaken by members of the forum team over there to here.
Okay, wait... Who are the people being talked about here? Are DSC employees (that is, people paying bills/being paid) reconsidering this decision, or is this simply lobbying by the forum team, or...?
Who posted the poll and who is looking at it is important, and the fact that it was done in such a way that a miniscule number of people are aware of it is not a point in favor of organization. As a point of reference, right now this campaign has an anemic 920 backers, but that poll has a truly miniscule 57 votes (~6% of backers). This issue is a major, major undertaking, without a really big sample, how can they make an informed decision?
Melcavuk wrote: The poll was approved by the DSC team (not forum team) to be posted. It was posted up by a mod but only with the approval of a member of DSC staff.
Ah, good info. Might want to poke the guys that make the updates and point out they need to put a link to that poll in an update so more causal backers/potential backers are aware it exists.
Melcavuk wrote: The poll was approved by the DSC team (not forum team) to be posted. It was posted up by a mod but only with the approval of a member of DSC staff.
Ah, good info. Might want to poke the guys that make the updates and point out they need to put a link to that poll in an update so more causal backers/potential backers are aware it exists.
Melcavuk wrote: The poll was approved by the DSC team (not forum team) to be posted. It was posted up by a mod but only with the approval of a member of DSC staff.
Ah, good info. Might want to poke the guys that make the updates and point out they need to put a link to that poll in an update so more causal backers/potential backers are aware it exists.
Good idea
Agreed
As much as we like "official forums", a surprising amount of people never actually visit them.
Heck even unofficial forums arent the end all be all, I bet a good majority of KS supporters arent even aware of sites like Dakka or Warseer
Damn right. They need to stop fething around and just get their armoured space troopers / space marines / gears / spartans out there in both concept art and greens form.
scipio.au wrote: Damn right. They need to stop fething around and just get their armoured space troopers / space marines / gears / spartans out there in both concept art and greens form.
Hmmm. You can almost see these coming. I reckon one of the next concepts will be of the hi-tech trooper trope - similar to FW Elysians or SW Samaritans. They're almost getting to the point of phoning these in from the pub
Edit:
I know the Wardrones are early days yet, but is anyone else getting a Star Wars battledroid feeling off of it?
As much as I like Kev's work, I honestly want to see MORE!
That poll is a nonissue, by the way. Your asking something like that when every tom dick and harry is trying to go about putting out some females. Most of them are stripper bodies, with a gun. Contrary to poluar belief, Women don't fight like that.
Want to make them a little more realistic, with less proportional, and just a little smaller, with some armor or forge them something that they actually bring to the table aside from a set of tits.
(This one is an infiltrator, this one is a sniper, this one is a gearead, she can cobble together equipment for your teams....)
I'll throw the gauntlet down too, If I see a woman on the table, I'd be targeting her, or making it a point to snatch her up. You put her on the battlefield, she's apriority target to me. ( SHe's out there for some reason, I'll grease her and worry about why later.)
The "Females", need to just be honestly part of the unit (ANY unit) at this point, not that we know what exactly a unit comprises of.
Of course they are going to end up with the obliquitous G string armor with an additional stripper poll for 5 bucks.
How may named characters, aside from Hansa are we expecting? Why not have one of the special characters ( A second, or third) be female, and give her some sort of special weapon, and call it a day?
Those Furries, too. When exactly are we looking to see some greens for those?
The wardrones look ok. How many weapons loadouts can they have? Do you put some team equipment on them to carry around? Are they in the same vain as a mech? DO I drive it around?
How about setting up a section on the website for the factions, and whats on deck right now?
How about an update on the units, as thier progression moves forward?
At this point, its rules discussion, and greens time. PLEASE, expand on what we have seen so far and not worry so much about more open ended theory hammer.
You have a solid baseline to start from with what we have seen on hand. Its time to push on and start the greens for at the vary least one of each.
Even starting work picks would be a heck of an update.
How about the background for one of the planets, or the Astroid Belt, or one of the war zones?
What are we looking at for ships and vehicles, by the way?
IMO, the new Sedition Wars females should be a good bar for what female plastics should be. They're great looking models, are proportiohnate, and actually look like they can handle themselves without being over-the-top.
We've been working on many things during the last 30 days since we launched our Kickstarter and one of the things we've been wanting to do is to give incentives to clubs & stores to back us. So we racked our brains and came up with a plan. Today we reveal the start of that plan in the form of Global Club Stretch Goals!
It's a simple system that tracks backers and gives points based on pledge amount + a bonus for when you backed us(the earlier the bigger the bonus!) + a bonus for certain levels of backers in your club. Those points are then pooled together to form stretch goals with which we award rewards, those rewards are Global rewards in that EVERY backer gets to take part in them. Here's a graphic that explains it:
Please bear with us, we're still developing the page - as you'll notice. The next phase of this plan will be to roll out the Individual Club Rewards and we're hoping to do this later this week. If you happen to spot any issues please PM a moderator on the forums.
If every backer joined up right now, we'd smash through the 1.5m goal and give all the previous rewards instantly to everyone! Hurrah!
If your club isn't in the drop down list on your user profile, simply go here and follow the instructions
See you later for our Boromite update
Rik
Sorry about the large picture size all, its the only one availble, sounds like Boromite concepts will be up later as well so stay tuned.
Alpharius wrote: The pose of the helmeted females is a bit over the top though, don't you think?
Don't get me wrong - I love the models in the set too!
Well you land of a fundamental problem, all things equal, a female human in realistic combat gear should look the same as a slim male, more so if hard armour is applied add to that a wargames scale and you land on a big question of how to distinguish a female and a male model ont he tabletop.
Making the armour curvy and more "celebratory" to the female body is one end of solution, applying a more "female" posture is the other and of course an in between approach in not half bad too.
Grot 6 wrote: As much as I like Kev's work, I honestly want to see MORE!
That poll is a nonissue, by the way. Your asking something like that when every tom dick and harry is trying to go about putting out some females. Most of them are stripper bodies, with a gun. Contrary to poluar belief, Women don't fight like that.
Want to make them a little more realistic, with less proportional, and just a little smaller, with some armor or forge them something that they actually bring to the table aside from a set of tits.
(This one is an infiltrator, this one is a sniper, this one is a gearead, she can cobble together equipment for your teams....)
I'll throw the gauntlet down too, If I see a woman on the table, I'd be targeting her, or making it a point to snatch her up. You put her on the battlefield, she's apriority target to me. ( SHe's out there for some reason, I'll grease her and worry about why later.)
The "Females", need to just be honestly part of the unit (ANY unit) at this point, not that we know what exactly a unit comprises of.
Of course they are going to end up with the obliquitous G string armor with an additional stripper poll for 5 bucks. .
Are you being sarcastic? That was THE ENTIRE POINT of the topic they have had on the GoA Forum.
Alpharius wrote: The pose of the helmeted females is a bit over the top though, don't you think?
Don't get me wrong - I love the models in the set too!
Because she's sticking her bottom out a little bit? Yeah, I guess I can see that, but I honestly didn't even notice until you mentioned it. I think it was an easy way to distinguish the model as female, as that's clearly not a male stance.
It does kind of break what was otherwise an promising model a bit. Still, good models, all of them. And at least the characters are quite sensible
Automatically Appended Next Post: It does kind of break what was otherwise an promising model a bit. Still, good models, all of them. And at least the characters are quite sensible
Alpharius wrote: The pose of the helmeted females is a bit over the top though, don't you think?
Don't get me wrong - I love the models in the set too!
Because she's sticking her bottom out a little bit? Yeah, I guess I can see that, but I honestly didn't even notice until you mentioned it. I think it was an easy way to distinguish the model as female, as that's clearly not a male stance.
Really?
You didn't notice?
That's why this issue is such a problem. Because the stance is only silly when we make men do it.
We've been working on many things during the last 30 days since we launched our Kickstarter and one of the things we've been wanting to do is to give incentives to clubs & stores to back us. So we racked our brains and came up with a plan. Today we reveal the start of that plan in the form of Global Club Stretch Goals!
It's a simple system that tracks backers and gives points based on pledge amount + a bonus for when you backed us(the earlier the bigger the bonus!) + a bonus for certain levels of backers in your club. Those points are then pooled together to form stretch goals with which we award rewards, those rewards are Global rewards in that EVERY backer gets to take part in them. Here's a graphic that explains it:
Please bear with us, we're still developing the page - as you'll notice. The next phase of this plan will be to roll out the Individual Club Rewards and we're hoping to do this later this week. If you happen to spot any issues please PM a moderator on the forums.
If every backer joined up right now, we'd smash through the 1.5m goal and give all the previous rewards instantly to everyone! Hurrah!
If your club isn't in the drop down list on your user profile, simply go here and follow the instructions
See you later for our Boromite update
Rik
Sorry about the large picture size all, its the only one availble, sounds like Boromite concepts will be up later as well so stay tuned.
It's... it's uncanny.
This campaign is following the example of the Through the Breach campaign so closely it's... it is too close to be a coincidence. Moving the conversation from the campaign page to the private forums and interacting in big infodumps? Check! Huge redundant videos? Check!
Now? Ooooh, a non-stretch goal stretch goal that's a) not based on money, and b) opaque to the casual viewer of the campaign. Awesome!
Wait.... so we have a campaign that needs more new backers... and the new announcement is to.... give them the finger by saying "join us, but all this stuff over here.... yeah you can't have it"
This system gives EVERY backer more rewards, not just the ones in the clubs. We realise that there are many potential backers in clubs around the world so we wanted to build something that would get them more interested and give everyone benefits if they do. you don't actually have to be part of a club to take part, just assign yourself to one and your points count towards the total and it's the total that drives the rewards. Hope that helps!
Alpharius wrote: The pose of the helmeted females is a bit over the top though, don't you think?
Don't get me wrong - I love the models in the set too!
Because she's sticking her bottom out a little bit? Yeah, I guess I can see that, but I honestly didn't even notice until you mentioned it. I think it was an easy way to distinguish the model as female, as that's clearly not a male stance.
Really?
You didn't notice?
That's why this issue is such a problem. Because the stance is only silly when we make men do it.
Well....
When you put it that way.....
But I have to ask...in this picture is ScarJo really pushing her butt out? I dont htink she is. I think she's just curvy.. I mean, her torso is pretty vertical....
This system gives EVERY backer more rewards, not just the ones in the clubs. We realise that there are many potential backers in clubs around the world so we wanted to build something that would get them more interested and give everyone benefits if they do. you don't actually have to be part of a club to take part, just assign yourself to one and your points count towards the total and it's the total that drives the rewards. Hope that helps!
In fairness, it was my initial assumption that early backers received a bonus as well. In retrospect, "It's a simple system that tracks backers and gives points based on pledge amount + a bonus for when you backed us(the earlier the bigger the bonus!)" is simply opaque. The bonus is based on the backer, but goes into the system through a club, to be distributed to the whole, when the goals are reached. It's so simple and straightforward!*
*For the sarcasm impaired, it is neither simple nor straightforward.
Oh I get that its convoluted, I think the basic summary is:
Everyone benefits,
The earlier and more you pledge the more "backer points" you contribute
When each "total" is reached in backer points every single backer gains a reward.
So the more people that join up faster, the higher the potential backer points get, and thus everyone gets a little bit more.
Seems like one of the main points of this system is to create some early MMO style "Guilds", obliviously their using this to start up/gauge interest to the online aspect of this game. It does seem a little weird to do this now, your basically pledging your allegiance to the games factions (and game system itself) while baring knowing anything about them, bit of a blind leap of faith. Of course I could be wrong, so take that idea with a grain of salt.
I'm sure there will be a way of changing this later so it won't be a big issue, just a very odd decesion to make at this stage in the project.
I work it out as an additional 60 credits to feeder boxes, 40 to dark energy boxes, an alternate Hansa model and a Boromite diarama if the maximum goal is reached
Just a way to add some extra value to the game, without admitting fault. I don't care how they do it, if it adds backers and people see that the result is a better deal all round. Hopefully, they've seen errors in the Through the Breach kickstarter and are moving to fix the other perceived issues nice and fast (still time!)
AlexHolker wrote: The first stretch goal kicks in at 50,000 pounds-equivalent. What are they planning to do if they don't reach the 300,000 pound goal?
They haven't really mentioned anything yet, I would imagine they will continue the developmeant of the project for a few months (say 6-8) and create a new kickstarter with that content. Regardless of exact plans, I doubt Rick & Co will let this project fall into vaporware.
Nice to see tunnel creatures/miners that are not space dwarves. I its a nice hanger of page not too sure if I would of gone all rock type skin but I do like the head as something pretty different.
I was thinking about Playing the boromites so im looking forward to some more work in progress shots
Rolt wrote: The guns are cool, the Boromite himselve kinda looks like the Thing with down's syndrome, but at least its not a space dwarf.
On to the next update we go.
Darn it, I wanted to be the first to say it looked like the Thing!
Cool idea though, nice to see that we are finally seeing some progress after all this waiting.
Now if they had started with some of these concepts instead of wasting half the kickstarter then maybe it would have been funded by now. I for one am not going to back this. I like kev's work and rik's systems, but the fact that it took 30 days just to get a rough concept out of them has left a bitter taste.
I know from reading posts here and other forums that others are frustrated too. I hope the game comes out and is a big success, and everyone enjoys it. But I just can't get excited over what I have seen so far.
Wow! Today hasn't been too bad and there is still 6 1/2 hours left in the kicktraq day. And this isn't the current total. It's about 200 short of the current. Although still a far cry from what is needed daily, at least it's not almost zero
Methinks the boromites (and possibly the promise of extra credits) might have generated some interest.
Don't know if anyone else noticed this on the kickstarter, updated info about the Global Club:
Hey everyone!
We had LOADS of feedback on the Global Club Stretch Goals and have refined the wording and added a new club called "The Ronin" for those of you that aren't attached to club but still want to get involved and help to hit the goals to get more goodies! I should stress again that these rewards benefit EVERY backer, not just backers in clubs. The good news is that we've gone over 325,000 global points already (with only 120 backers currently playing) and if another 30-50 of you get involved tonight, we could hit the first stretch goal! check it out here
We still have a software bug which we're trying desperately to fix where the club you selected is registered as the club below in the list - but I have it on good advice that this will be fixed this evening! (it doesn't affect the total) We'll also be adding the Grand Total global points which should make it a little easier to see how far we've got to go to hit the next stretch goal. Phew.
The KS is up to £99,014 with 28days left, we could get lucky.
cincydooley wrote:Anyone else thing that boromite looks like Thing mixed with a Star Trek Ferengi?
Commander Cain wrote:
Rolt wrote: The guns are cool, the Boromite himselve kinda looks like the Thing with down's syndrome, but at least its not a space dwarf.
On to the next update we go.
Darn it, I wanted to be the first to say it looked like the Thing!
Cool idea though, nice to see that we are finally seeing some progress after all this waiting.
Yes. Yes we did!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am also not sure what to make of the "stretch goals" on one hand it seems stupid that they have them despite not even being a third of the way to their minimum goal but it is also nice in that they obviously realize that even if they do successfully fund, it will probably be by the skin of their teeth!
Commander Cain wrote: I am also not sure what to make of the "stretch goals" on one hand it seems stupid that they have them despite not even being a third of the way to their minimum goal but it is also nice in that they obviously realize that even if they do successfully fund, it will probably be by the skin of their teeth!
Stretch goals are good at generating excitement for kickstarters. They also serve as good talking points for the community, helping spread the word and make it more visible to the uninformed. DSC may be trying to increase 'revenue' by building excitement with pseudo stretch goals; if these goals are met it will also generate an illusion of progress and increase perceived value of the pledge levels, things which could then cause more people to go in as backers.
I'm getting more and more into this kickstarter as time goes on, to be honest. I can't help but think the way my opinion is forming is a good way for us 'grassroots' folk to advertise the kickstarter.
My opinion pretty much can be summed up as, "I'm fed up now of Games Workshop screwing me around, so it's time to put my money where my mouth is."
Admittedly, that's not something that Rick and DSC can really advertise as an official selling point of the game but still...
I mean, come on, £3 for a plastic model, crazy expensive big kits, terrible 40k flyer rules. It's no good just whinging about it, try to do something about it, like support Gates of Antares more.
Well, in any case, that's my spin on why I've put my money down.
Look folks. Posting polite constructive criticism is perfectly fine. If you don't like the project or how the kickstarter is being run, then explaining why you feel this way is absolutely fine to do in this thread.
However, your criticism needs to be polite and it needs to be constructive. If you cannot manage to abide by those two basic principles, then please refrain from posting in this thread (and on Dakka in general).
Finally, if you've already expressed your opinion on why you think this project isn't working or how they've mismanaged the campaign five, six, seven or more times in this thread, you really don't need to post yet again saying a slightly different version of the same thing.
Once again, if you've already expressed your opinion on why you think this project isn't working or how they've mismanaged the campaign five, six, seven or more times in this thread, you really don't need to post yet again saying a slightly different version of the same thing.
All I really want to know is how much are the minis going to cost later? If the money is going towards "plastic tooling" does that mean plastic minis? And if it is being paid for by the "fan base" then does that mean we are going to be able to buy the minis for something close to the 75p that it costs to print the sprue? Or are we going to be paying £35 for 5 guys like at GW.
I'm all for supporting new projects, but if this thing gets off the ground, are you going to pass some of the profits back to the "fans" who made it happen? Or is this just a way for you to charge £12 a model, and put 11 in your pocket.
judgedoug wrote: The plastic wardrones are part of many of the pledges.
Yeah but anyone who gets into the game is going to want more than whatever they got with their pledge. If it's anything like 40k there will be a whole load of armies and races to collect beyond what is in the starter set. I would like to know how much that is going to cost.
All I ever hear about GW is how expensive the plastic tooling equipment is, and how they need to charge loads to cover the investment. But with this GoA if the plastic tooling is being paid for by the kickstarter backers (the people who play the game). Then are these same people also going to be charged £12 a model for miniatures made with the equipment they helped pay for? It seems to me GoA kits should be way cheaper than GW for many years to come. Yet somehow I doubt that will be the case.
But I have to ask...in this picture is ScarJo really pushing her butt out? I dont htink she is. I think she's just curvy.. I mean, her torso is pretty vertical....
But, that being said....point very well taken.
But how often does a serious fighter stand with his (or her) butt towards the enemy? Her pose was clearly designed to let you see her curves, rather than to demonstrate badassery like the others. If you can't imagine a serious action dude standing in a woman model's pose, then it is probably ridiculous and should be rethought.
Well you land of a fundamental problem, all things equal, a female human in realistic combat gear should look the same as a slim male, more so if hard armour is applied add to that a wargames scale and you land on a big question of how to distinguish a female and a male model ont he tabletop.
Making the armour curvy and more "celebratory" to the female body is one end of solution, applying a more "female" posture is the other and of course an in between approach in not half bad too.
What exactly is a "female" posture? Like a cowboy's, but with the elbows and knees inward? The SW women had obvious curves without the armor being silly. Only their poses and the gratuitous butt crack armor hurt the models.
GatesofAntares wrote:Ronin
I'm sure enough of you remember how I felt about the TtBreach Kickstarter, so I'll just say, I have a bad feeling about this.
Their sketches look decent, but not jaw-dropping or "different" enough to capture the imagination. They are failing to capitalize on the key aspects of the fluff that make their world different from the other big SF games' worlds--the omnipresent nanotech, the diversity of humanity and total integration of the technological and the biological in a harmonious, Kurtzweilian whole. Really, now that I have Mantic and SW and DFG and DG and WGF and TFM, with free or cheap rules from dozens of companies and fan-sites, why do I want to buy GoA's stuff again?
All their designs look like burly white men wearing Hollywood SF-style costumes. Way to think outside the box.
I really do want this to succeed because the fluff has potential and online participation guarantees story advancement, and there might be some nice minis maybe eventually possibly.
Yeah but anyone who gets into the game is going to want more than whatever they got with their pledge. If it's anything like 40k there will be a whole load of armies and races to collect beyond what is in the starter set. I would like to know how much that is going to cost.
All I ever hear about GW is how expensive the plastic tooling equipment is, and how they need to charge loads to cover the investment. But with this GoA if the plastic tooling is being paid for by the kickstarter backers (the people who play the game). Then are these same people also going to be charged £12 a model for miniatures made with the equipment they helped pay for? It seems to me GoA kits should be way cheaper than GW for many years to come. Yet somehow I doubt that will be the case.
That all kind of depends on whats going to be plastic. I am a bit confused on what is and is not plastic besides the robos
I assume the KS exclusives are metal? Otherwise we'll have another case of "Limited GW Plastic Kits" all over again (assuming HARD PLASTIC and not restic)
BobtheInquisitor wrote: But how often does a serious fighter stand with his (or her) butt towards the enemy?
It is actually quite a decent guard position. Getting kicked in the butt is as good blocking, and far better than being kicked in the nuts. The knee is turned away if it gets stepped on. Shoulder protects chin. Possibility of distracting enemy with your butt... What serious fighter wouldn't stand that way?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: But how often does a serious fighter stand with his (or her) butt towards the enemy?
It is actually quite a decent guard position. Getting kicked in the butt is as good blocking, and far better than being kicked in the nuts. The knee is turned away if it gets stepped on. Shoulder protects chin. Possibility of distracting enemy with your butt... What serious fighter wouldn't stand that way?
Apparently the Hulk, Captain America, Iron Man...
Anyway, I was just trying to illustrate why the SW women look odd in their Sir mix-A-Lot poses.
So long as Kev White doesn't sculpt the GoA women so that even NuHu got ta shout Baby Got back, I'll be happy.
But I have to ask...in this picture is ScarJo really pushing her butt out? I dont htink she is. I think she's just curvy.. I mean, her torso is pretty vertical....
But, that being said....point very well taken.
But how often does a serious fighter stand with his (or her) butt towards the enemy? Her pose was clearly designed to let you see her curves, rather than to demonstrate badassery like the others. If you can't imagine a serious action dude standing in a woman model's pose, then it is probably ridiculous and should be rethought.
I always do enjoy seeing that one picture, it's an excellent little demonstration of the fundamentally unserious approach hipsters take to issues. After all, there is no significant difference between the genders, certainly not in the area of secondary sexual characteristics or indicators of nubility/virility (no doubt racist/imperialist/patriarchal constructs, those...).
Sadly, the problems with BtGoA are much less of a laughing matter.
Spoiler:
Over this week the Per Day To Succeed seems to have been on an inexorable march upwards (which is bad). While it's certainly understandable that there is a desire to shift discussion to their own forums, the effect has been to starve the campaign site of activity. The half-way point is passed, there are over 900 backers but only... 514 comments? Similarly, the most recent model revealed, the WIP "Boromite", that is a...? Boromites are labeled a panhuman, so they work for which faction? Who now? What what?
Those answers are there... somewhere. The more a casual viewer has to look, the fewer are going to make the effort. To be honest, what exactly they should be doing at this point in the game isn't entirely clear, there is simply so much verbiage on the official forums that condensing it seems almost impossible.
The inclusion of female characters is a plus for me. I like the female Commisar that GW did as a promo figure, it was well-sculpted without being cheesecake or pinup material.
A commissar with a tight bustier that make her breasts practically hit her chin, a slit up her dress most of the way to the hip that would make Angelina Jolie jealous, and knee high leather boots isn't cheesecake or pinup material???? Her look fits more with a Firefly whorehouse than a grimdark IG battlefield. You apparently have some impossibly strict standards as to what is bad enough to qualify as cheesecake.
I always do enjoy seeing that one picture, it's an excellent little demonstration of the fundamentally unserious approach hipsters take to issues. After all, there is no significant difference between the genders, certainly not in the area of secondary sexual characteristics or indicators of nubility/virility (no doubt racist/imperialist/patriarchal constructs, those...).
Sadly, the problems with BtGoA are much less of a laughing matter.
Did you seriously just "First World Problems LOL" me on sexism and immediately move on to "Rich, Famous White Guy Can't Get Enough Free Money, HELP"? Really?
And minimalization of the issue always makes you look classy. The picture is an easy demonstration that works BECAUSE it is funny. There are indeed physiological and mental differences between the genders, but I'm not sure exactly which part of the second X chromosome requires booty-pouting or whatever you call it. It's hardly a polemic to suggest that female soldiers look like they are competent soldiers and not Little Miss Soldiers, is it?
Over this week the Per Day To Succeed seems to have been on an inexorable march upwards (which is bad). While it's certainly understandable that there is a desire to shift discussion to their own forums, the effect has been to starve the campaign site of activity. The half-way point is passed, there are over 900 backers but only... 514 comments? Similarly, the most recent model revealed, the WIP "Boromite", that is a...? Boromites are labeled a panhuman, so they work for which faction? Who now? What what?
Those answers are there... somewhere. The more a casual viewer has to look, the fewer are going to make the effort. To be honest, what exactly they should be doing at this point in the game isn't entirely clear, there is simply so much verbiage on the official forums that condensing it seems almost impossible.
I think they need to start some sort of concept elimination tournament. They can use Better 1 or Better 2 style polls between the most commonly promoted ideas so that they can finally find a direction and move in it.
As for the cost of the miniatures as discussed some posts up... well, consider that at this point the cheapest additional credit thing on the KS page is £85 for 800 credits. Based on the listed credit prices, figures seem to vary between 10-30, with most being 20 or 30. This would lead to 26-80 miniatures for £85. Or, £1,06-3,27 per miniature. Even taking £2 as an average, you'd be paying about £20 for 10 minis. That's cheaper than, say, a Tactical squad, but the quality and customizability will remain to be seen.
Oh, and one more thing about the Club stretch goal thing, since it's apparently not even mentioned no the KS page, and I'm lazy about going to the official site at this point. Since it is meant to somehow boost early pledgers, does that in effect mean that only those who had pledged and been part of the stretch when a threshold was crossed get that particular bonus? So that if one joins say, a week before the deadline and no further stretch goals are met after that, no bonuses for that person? If it's not like that, I'm not sure what the bonus is for adopting early. If it IS like that, well... too bad for me I guess, since at this point I'd only pledge the minimum really, because as mentioned I can't - nor do I know yet if I want to - really "properly" pledge before the 28th.
And as Buzzsaw points out, the progress on reaching the goal has been poor as a whole. In the few days that I've been following this, there's been maybe a couple thousand £ worth of pledges added, which does not bode well.
tvih wrote: Oh, and one more thing about the Club stretch goal thing, since it's apparently not even mentioned no the KS page, and I'm lazy about going to the official site at this point. Since it is meant to somehow boost early pledgers, does that in effect mean that only those who had pledged and been part of the stretch when a threshold was crossed get that particular bonus? So that if one joins say, a week before the deadline and no further stretch goals are met after that, no bonuses for that person? If it's not like that, I'm not sure what the bonus is for adopting early. If it IS like that, well... too bad for me I guess, since at this point I'd only pledge the minimum really, because as mentioned I can't - nor do I know yet if I want to - really "properly" pledge before the 28th.
The bonus appears to be a "discount" on unlocking stretch goals - the earlier you sign up, the more points your pledge adds.
Since Warlord will do the production side I think a good gues would be to go over to their shop and have a look what miniatures cost over there.
Droids will be plastic, rest will be metal for the time being and if I remember correctly first vehicles will be made of resin.
@Chris
Well, when I started in the Sedition Wars thread to be not so touchy -feely those guy over there that are not so in favor of touchy-feely over here were among the first to hit the mod-button. I think this explains a lot (As long as they are not at the receiving end its fine for them but....)
Well they did it. After a month of really only being interested in the rules and not caring about the fluff/background/factions/etc, they got me interested. That Isorian concept very unique and now I'm paying a lot closer attention. If they keep this trend up my wallet will probably open more as a lot of the concepts get transformed to actual sculpts. Took long enough, haha.
We've hit our first stretch goal in the Global Club rewards!
This one boosts EVERY feeder box with an extra 10 credits so the feeder box now has 510 Custom Army Credits! Nice!
If you're not involved in this yet all you need to do is register on the forums and fill in a couple of fields, and your current pledge level will be counted towards the Grand Total which will then count towards hitting these targets and give you all more rewards!
Go here to find out what's going on (graphic at bottom of page)
Thank you everyone!
Well I have to say that Isorian guy is pretty cool, he remainds me of the collector armour from Mass Effect, love the extended spine and head cap, all it needs now is a great looking helmet. This guy and the C3 trooper now makes two concepts/armies I'm really intrested in, if only they had these right from the start we would probley be looking at a very different Kickstarter.
It is a very long kick starter so when you look back on it what of the first half was the taking suggestions of what people wanted to see where as the second half has art concepts and greens of what was asked for the most?
I have to admit I wasn't interested in that faction at all till I saw this update!
4 Factions (Concord, Freeborn, Determinate and Isorians) to start.
Races have more scope, there's nuhu (hyper evolved humans), Pans (genetically engineered from humans, many sub species), Sims (genetically engineered from monkeys, many species), Reavers (standard humans), and drones thus far.
I love this thread! Everytime I see a concept, I know I saw it somewhere before.... Riddick was a cool movie, those necromongers! Reminds me of skyrim too. There was a genestealer cult model way back that looked similar too. Dark elderish. Prometheus dude. Naruto.....
In all fairness its hard to design anything these days without it reminding someboby somewhere of another design, what matters more is how well the design stands on its own feet, so far the GoA concepts are doing a pretty good job. All in all I'd rather see designs that vaugly remind me of other stuff than another batch of "not-popular movie/game/40k/whatever because we changed two small details".
I love this thread! Everytime I see a concept, I know I saw it somewhere before.... Riddick was a cool movie, those necromongers! Reminds me of skyrim too. There was a genestealer cult model way back that looked similar too. Dark elderish. Prometheus dude. Naruto.....
In all fairness its hard to design anything these days without it reminding someboby somewhere of another design, what matters more is how well the design stands on its own feet, so far the GoA concepts are doing a pretty good job. All in all I'd rather see designs that vaugly remind me of other stuff than another batch of "not-popular movie/game/40k/whatever because we changed two small details".
That would support my view that the SF market is saturated.
I don't think it's that saturated. Only problem is that most scifi design isn't that visionary anymore, most stick to what they already know instead of trying some actual new stuff.
Most scifi soldiers look like medieval knights with some tech gear glued on them.
If we look at Prometheus we see that in the far far future IKEA still produces furniture, the characters are dressed up as if it's 2011 and the tech seems to be from around 2013-2016.
The whole concept of the spaceship hasn't changed that much either, we've grown stuck with the idea that it should be like some sort of submarine (in the way it works).
Alienwise, the most visionary thing in decades seems to have been Giger's alien, the stuff afterwards all seem to be copies of that design somehow. Where is the new stuff? I doubt Giger's alien is the only truly frightening design out there...
Today we have a couple of updates for you, the first one is part 2 of the Boromite Overseer Diorama - thank you to those that pointed out my spelling mistakes!
The Global Club Stretch Goals are rapidly progressing and we're well on our way to the next goal!
Thank you to everyone that has taken part so far! Just a quick note: As so many of you have selected The Ronin as your club it's not easy to tell if you're being counted or not, there are a number of you that have put your backer name down in the forums but it's not the exact same as the Kickstarter one, so your pledge is not being counted currently and you're not getting your bonuses! The easiest way to check if yours is working is to go into your user profile and select one of the drop down test options (at the bottom of the lists) in either guilds or factions (check no-one else is using it first on the league table) and then hit refresh on the league table. If your selected test appears, then you're all good and being counted! If not, check if your KS name is the same with no spaces at the end or the beginning, and PM one of the moderators if you need any help - Thank you!
Bah that's the first thing I'm definitely not a fan of, I'll wait till it's finished before I write it off completely, still you can't expect to love everything in a setting there's certainly parts of the 40k universe I wouldn't touch with a barge pole. Still holding out on the optimism for an increase in pledges, it's funny that people don't up their pledge due to being nervous about kickstarters not being funded, if they aren't then your money won't be going anywhere.
Sidstyler wrote: Well if that's the case then surely there'd be no problem with one person pledging the remaining £200,000 to get it funded and pulling out later then.
Is it possible to pledge £200,000, see all of the stretch goals for a KS, then reduce ones pledge back down to a low level for the basic rulebook or something?
Sidstyler wrote: Well if that's the case then surely there'd be no problem with one person pledging the remaining £200,000 to get it funded and pulling out later then.
Ye gods that's not what I meant! I'll go back to painting before someone thinks that sounds like a bright idea and I get the blame
Let me qualify my statement and say that the current market for SF games is not diverse enough.
The accepted paradigm is already over-represented.
Agreed.
Just think that this game is trying to please everyone, which can't happen. I would rather see someone say "here is my kick butt idea, minis, game system, like or hate it, but I did it my way".....
Just think that this game is trying to please everyone, which can't happen. I would rather see someone say "here is my kick butt idea, minis, game system, like or hate it, but I did it my way".....
Imho.
We've had many of those, no? Kingdom Death, Relic Knights, hell, even Rivet Wars. Love em or hate em, they all certainly did "their thing".
We’re looking for high quality sculptors to join us as we embark on our journey into a new Science Fiction game – Beyond the Gates of Antares!
Written by one of the most successful names in wargames design, Rick Priestley (designer of Warhammer 40,000, Warhammer fantasy, Hail Caesar, Black Powder and many more), this exciting project has already attracted some of the best sculptors in the game and now we’re looking to add fresh, new blood to our ranks.
We’re looking for freelance sculptors capable of meeting mutually agreed deadlines and lavishing every last ounce of their creativity into their work! Successful applicants will be helping us design and illuminate the Antaran universe with their enthusiasm, commitment and creative genius!
If that sounds like you, and you’re interested in working with some of the biggest names in the business please send us images of your previous sculpting work along with your availability to Paul Sawyer at paul.sawyer@warlordgames.com and we’ll take things from there.
The team have posted up some details of how the real time dynamic universe will be working and a small video to explain them. Its one of the unique hooks of this game that seems to evolve wargaming a little more (if done right) and worth a look:
Alpharius please stop it mate, I keep thinking you're making a self-fulfilling prophecy there :( We need to lie about that kind of stuff and build up a kind of false impression, and get people roped in with a tide of positivity
That's interesting kenshin620, looks like this project will most likely be going ahead anyway, even if the KS fails possibly?
For me this is the big one - more details on how the real-time game universe is going to work. I think it only needs a little imagination to see how this kind of thing could be immensely cool, and for me this is the one, really important (revolutionary?) thing about the GoA project.
Sorry for the big pic, but I think this is definitely worth reading!
Kilkrazy wrote: I am intrigued by the campaign idea, and I would very much like to see their plans for prevention of cheating.
This was my first thought when I read about the campaign thing. Seriously, what's to stop people from forging battle results and inputting those to boost their faction? I mean I don't see how that's fun in any way to do, but that's just the kind of crap some people like to pull.
I believe there has been talk of different ways of limiting the number of results able to be submitted in a day, an option of needing a second player (your opponent) to verify a battle report for the system, and that the team has other ideas in mind to limit the potential for cheating.
I'm not overly technical myself so it does seem as though people might try to abuse such a system (trying to weight wins for their favourite faction, or logging a loss as their most hated faction etc) but the team do have some previous online game experience (video games I think) so they are likely more knowledgeable about such things (hopefully)
I observed blatant cheating in the 40K summer campaigns, and they need to find a way around that or the key selling point of the universe will be lost.
Those charts make me think of games like Planetside
Still no idea if its any good. Besides gw has there really been any other "worldwide" campaign war games? (well first theres the problem of getting "big" enough like warhams)
Duncan_Idaho wrote:There are several fail-saves built in to prevent this, some hidden, some open.
I suppose it's a fairly straightforward thing to make cheating difficult. It's certainly not feasible to make it impossible, but I think make it difficult enough and you will stop all but the biggest losers from cheating. If they can get something like a 90% genuine rate then that should at least give a mostly correct result - I think it will also benefit if there is no obvious 'goodie' faction. You're not going to have thousands of 11 year-olds posting false results for a Space Marine victory (because they want them to win), so possibly the cheat will be more balanced out?
Anyway I find the prospect of this kind of real-time universe extremely exciting! I'm already thinking about the prospects for club gaming (which can be represented as 'guilds' in this game) and a lot of interaction with the gaming universe. Look at how some MMO games have developed, how the personalities of some of those universes have developed over time, and how really those human elements often become the coolest and most memorable parts of those games - I think it really has the potential to add another dimension to the gameplay, and definitely make some other games look positively stale by comparison.
I think they need to give every backer a Santana. It's the only way.
Honestly, I don't know what percentage of the population is really pledging for the "and YOU" aspects of the game, yet that seems to be what GoA has been banking on. It might also be why the goal is so ridiculously high. Maybe they can save this thing by writing WGF, DFG, TFG (or somebody with an established line of models) a blank cheque.
Yeah, I'm not real excited about this figure, but that's ok - I don't have to like every figure to like the game, etc. I just wish they'd had one of each faction sculpted before they started - yes, including the anthro-furries - a nice Kilrathi figure.
I still think they need some armoured "space marine"-type figures if they want this to have a chance of success.
Melcavuk wrote: I believe there has been talk of different ways of limiting the number of results able to be submitted in a day, an option of needing a second player (your opponent) to verify a battle report for the system, and that the team has other ideas in mind to limit the potential for cheating.
That would be easy to break. Limiting the number per day wouldn't stop false reports, you just wouldn't be able to post so many of them. I imagine there would also be cases of people playing lots of games legitimately and not being able to report them all. Both players needing to report will inevitably lead to a lot of legitimate battles not counting, as the losing player simply won't verify that the game ever took place so it doesn't hurt their faction/his win/loss record.
In the end I think they might moderate it better than GW ever did with their global campaigns (which isn't that hard), but they're not going to be able to stop people from being cheap and dirty. No matter what game you play, there are always people out there who care way too much about those pointless numbers, and when you add in an aspect like this where the results could have a real effect on the game, rewarding a faction you like/punishing one you don't, it just makes things even worse.
Melcavuk wrote: I believe there has been talk of different ways of limiting the number of results able to be submitted in a day, an option of needing a second player (your opponent) to verify a battle report for the system, and that the team has other ideas in mind to limit the potential for cheating.
That would be easy to break. Limiting the number per day wouldn't stop false reports, you just wouldn't be able to post so many of them. I imagine there would also be cases of people playing lots of games legitimately and not being able to report them all. Both players needing to report will inevitably lead to a lot of legitimate battles not counting, as the losing player simply won't verify that the game ever took place so it doesn't hurt their faction/his win/loss record.
In the end I think they might moderate it better than GW ever did with their global campaigns (which isn't that hard), but they're not going to be able to stop people from being cheap and dirty. No matter what game you play, there are always people out there who care way too much about those pointless numbers, and when you add in an aspect like this where the results could have a real effect on the game, rewarding a faction you like/punishing one you don't, it just makes things even worse.
They could do what LotFR does and limit the results to official tournaments and events, of course that means that they have to have official tournaments and events first...
What the...? No wonder they are looking for new sculptors, that thing is really badly sculpted! I just hope they rely more on Kev and less on this guy because comparing both sculpting is like a pearl vs a turd.
Go to the dozens of Wi Fi Hotspots within 20 miles, upload
Heck maybe even use proxies
I do wonder what the reward for winning is. If it is actually "tangible" (like "hey get 100 or so wins and your faction will get a vehicle) then I could imagine people willing to go the extra mile to get those extra wins
I'm imagining it something more like. Secure the factory planet, the winners get a new vehicle. The other factions then gain access to 'resistance ambush units.'
So no side gets unfairly stronger / better but the factions flavour evolves depending on the battle results.
I think it's something like depending on how much your faction wins you get a certain percentage of the spoils, everyone gets something. take the Quark Tech for example, if you are the overall winner you get a lot of EXP towards unlocking Quark Tech, and if you unlock it I'm guessing the other people will get a chance to get it later without you being able to claim more of it. like say the Isorians are winning big time, well next episode everyone gangs up the isorians until balance is restored. that's the thing, like in an MMO there are mods (Rick and Rik) who are ultimately like a DM in a D&D game. if someone gets too big for their britches they may see themselves in difficult situations.
Melcavuk wrote: I believe there has been talk of different ways of limiting the number of results able to be submitted in a day, an option of needing a second player (your opponent) to verify a battle report for the system, and that the team has other ideas in mind to limit the potential for cheating.
That would be easy to break. Limiting the number per day wouldn't stop false reports, you just wouldn't be able to post so many of them. I imagine there would also be cases of people playing lots of games legitimately and not being able to report them all. Both players needing to report will inevitably lead to a lot of legitimate battles not counting, as the losing player simply won't verify that the game ever took place so it doesn't hurt their faction/his win/loss record.
In the end I think they might moderate it better than GW ever did with their global campaigns (which isn't that hard), but they're not going to be able to stop people from being cheap and dirty. No matter what game you play, there are always people out there who care way too much about those pointless numbers, and when you add in an aspect like this where the results could have a real effect on the game, rewarding a faction you like/punishing one you don't, it just makes things even worse.
Hey, they might have some IP checking as well. So if I were to play games with my casual-gamer friends where I supply both forces and we do the reports from here, they'd be filtered out. Likewise if I play with my wife, or any pairs of brothers play at home, fathers and sons.. etc.
I see my analogy of EVE on tabletop isn't that far out of reach.
I'm chomping at the bit to see some more sculpts, though. Are these figures going to be kits, blocks, or squad/ platoon options? Are the weapons going to be changeable? are we going to see more specific fluff for the armies? Are we going to see more characters, and troops anytime soon?
Can we start playing the game with our own figures, and then add in more later on? Wheres the test rules set located? How can we start on the universe upgrades, mining, and production facilities, and such?
Melcavuk wrote: I believe there has been talk of different ways of limiting the number of results able to be submitted in a day, an option of needing a second player (your opponent) to verify a battle report for the system, and that the team has other ideas in mind to limit the potential for cheating.
That would be easy to break. Limiting the number per day wouldn't stop false reports, you just wouldn't be able to post so many of them. I imagine there would also be cases of people playing lots of games legitimately and not being able to report them all. Both players needing to report will inevitably lead to a lot of legitimate battles not counting, as the losing player simply won't verify that the game ever took place so it doesn't hurt their faction/his win/loss record.
In the end I think they might moderate it better than GW ever did with their global campaigns (which isn't that hard), but they're not going to be able to stop people from being cheap and dirty. No matter what game you play, there are always people out there who care way too much about those pointless numbers, and when you add in an aspect like this where the results could have a real effect on the game, rewarding a faction you like/punishing one you don't, it just makes things even worse.
The problem with any internet based reporting is that a user wanting to cheat can simply make 50 gmail accounts and use them to report 25 games a day, verified by both "players". I don't see how this can be avoided without some kind of real world monetary based verification of the accounts. Perhaps players should be required to hold a verified PayPal account and use that to log in to the campaign by payment of a nominal fee. You can immediately see objections to that, of course.
The campaign side of it is one of the most interesting parts, and that is part of why they are asking for £300,000, to be able to set up that infrastructure. Cheating will almost certainly happen and it will spoil the campaign for honest players, so GoA need to think of a way to deal with it.
if people want to go through all that trouble just to "win" at a game... well it speaks for itself doesn't it? Im sure that the developers will put a few fail safe methods in there to weed out false reports. But there is only so much you can do some will get through.
I dont even mind if there is no bonus but just permanent changes to the story.
The other problem with trying to compare this to MMOs in terms of anti cheating is that people have to pay for online games. These MMO subscription are used to support everything. This global campaign, from what i can see, is not funded beyond buying the minis. I can see several problems with this:
- anti cheating controls won't be effective enough without a dedicated subscription system
- I wouldn't be surprised to see a subscription system being set up to participate in the global campaigns - the logistics in trying to run it are huge
- I can see model proxying being demonised very rapidly if the purchase of minis is used to support the global campaigns
- I can see model proxying being demonised very rapidly if the purchase of minis is used to support the global campaigns
I must admit I am curious to know if proxies would at all be welcomed in GoA
Yes the game seems to be aiming for "Generic Sci Fi", but if I just pick up the rulebook or even share off of a friend and just use my normal collection of minis should my wins and losses still be counted? Even worse if say an entire club adopted the game but didnt use official minis, heck maybe even played it at a different scale like 15mm. Would this "free riding" be frowned upon since these people arent contributing?
Glad I'm not the only one to think the Boromite looks like a turd holding a gun. Yikes.
I think in order to curb cheating they'll need a subscription type service AND some kind of judging system. Which seems totally reasonable because, you know, they've totally proven with this KS they're capable and equipped to handle something with such expansive scope.
Wait... There's talk about a global campaign that will affect the storyline of the world, with online submission support, and we still have been shown minimal miniature previews and almost no rules?
Some of the concepts have me hopeful, but between this and the interview I saw the transcript of I can't help but feel I'm looking at a cart who wasn't just put before the horse but is waiting for it to be born.
They've said he's standing on a drone, though haven't clarified what kind of drone (could be a mining droid or something I believe).
As to the work on the living universe at the same time as the greens. I think the living universe is the most unique hook the game has, to have it fleshed out as the development goes along is what will hopefully make this game stand out more from the crowd.
Heh. A single very obvious typo in the 2nd paragraph of their first publicly released mock-up of the interface of their Unique Selling Point. So the writer missed it (kind of implying they didn't bother re-reading their own work), the editor missed it (if they have one), the graphic designer missed it, and the web designer missed it. It's not that big a deal other than that as part of the pattern -- a rushed project that even the creators can't really be bothered to invest that much time and effort in, let alone money.
I know what both of you mean, actually, though my viewpoint is that materials presented now are like the application latter and CV of a job candidate.
If they contain any weaknesses or mistakes, it might reduce the regard you would have for that candidate, but you might overlook minor problems if there were compensating advantages.
Ian Sturrock wrote: Heh. A single very obvious typo in the 2nd paragraph of their first publicly released mock-up of the interface of their Unique Selling Point. So the writer missed it (kind of implying they didn't bother re-reading their own work), the editor missed it (if they have one), the graphic designer missed it, and the web designer missed it. It's not that big a deal other than that as part of the pattern -- a rushed project that even the creators can't really be bothered to invest that much time and effort in, let alone money.
/shrug
GW's latest, shiny Dark Angels Codex is littered with typos too. So that inference would apply equally to them (and virtually every company in this business).
IMO; there's enough to glean from the things they do intentionally to form an opinion, IMO.
fficial&source=lnms&tbm=isch&
