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Post by: Overread
Cadwallon are making their own game and I'd honestly hope they abandon the recasting and jsut focus on their own product. I do agree that itsa rare case where the recasters are coming off better than the actual "firm" legit casting these models.
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Post by: Monkeysloth
 ced1106 wrote:
Well, Stellar owns the license, and San Detour is the licensee but both companies are, more or less, owned / operated by the same people. Or are you referring to how Stellar originally got the license from Rackham?
.
The Sodapop Miniature set up. Where you run a KSer then pay a large amount of money from what was earned in licensing fees to yourself. Considering the accountant is the same guy that owns your IP via a shell company I think my original statement is true is spirit.
Rackham hasn't existed since it went bankrupt. Cyanide, the video game publisher, had owned the rights if I remember correctly (and were the ones that licensed it out to Legacy/CMoN) after they bought them during the bankruptcy but Stellar stated they bought the rights and the old masters (thus why the sold some of them off). While not a huge IP it's more then likely way more money then Stellar/San/Ludick could afford without some unknown investors or money that was supposed to go elsewhere that they shifted in hopes of making enough to pay back everything owed. Since Stellar is in China maybe they convinced some well off person(s) there to give them whatever amount needed? It's hard to really say how they got the money.
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Post by: Monkeysloth
It's kind of sad reading the BBG post from 2014 about how Dust (via the Legacy label) CMoN and FFG (boardgames) being involved as a positive sign--which is understandable back then. That was right before the Duct and FFG fallout and the start of FFGs short attention span for games, and Dusts burning though partners and good will.
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Post by: Wirecat
They have promised their backers so much for their dollar that a single dollar is all they have got from me. I am still waiting in the KS comments for these ardent supporters of old to point me towards a sane and feasible way to make a single reasonably sized mold for injecting plastic with less than 5K (not in bitcoins, obviously).
A shame, though...
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Post by: HaleysRedComet
If we are discussing whether SD is pulling a scam or just incompetent - there are a whole lot of things to consider. First - this is a company that has never produced a miniature (and is currently outsourcing the casting to multiple firms). They made claims that they would be able to produce the minis in plastic (an unknown kind of plastic) that would hold the same amount of detail as the original metals. That's either a lie, or they just really don't grasp the very basics of miniature production. Either may be true. They are now producing metal miniatures (which from their pictures do look good).
Sans Detour also has never really commented on the game they are selling. They linked the third edition rulebook on the KS page, but haven't talked about the basics of the faction abilities or how the game works. Their faction sets are nowhere near equal by any measure - though this may change with a new edition. Anything is possible I suppose. So when they went to make unit cards they decided to make a change and instead of listing abilities through text they would use symbols. This would allow for a single card to be used for multiple languages much easier. However, there are somewhere around 100 abilities, so I have no idea how you would begin to look one up for reference. That is most likely incompetence.
Next there was a recent pledge to communicate more frequently, with one update every two weeks. This happened exactly one time, and it has been since October 15 since an update. None of the news shared here has been mentioned by anyone at Sans Detour in the Kickstarter, though it certainly seems relevant. This could be incompetence, but based on how they have a history of shady business dealings (not paying Chaosium then starting a Kickstarter that got shut down because it continued to use IP from Chaosium), I think malice is more likely.
I'm a huge fan of Confrontation, I continue to play it with some regularity and they are my favorite minis to paint to this day. I want Confrontation to come back, but Sans Detour isn't qualified to do it and has a history of insanely shady business practices. There's probably a bit of both malice and incompetence going on, but I don't think they knew quite how much they had to know to get this off the ground enough for the scam to take hold and for them to ship cheap product right before they start another KS that would build off the assumed success of this one.
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Post by: Aulë
According to comments on kickstarter it seems that Josselin Moureau, Project Manager of Confrontation has said in a facebook's group of beta testers of resurrection that he has resigned from the project and from Sans Détour
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Post by: Overread
Sounds like SD is falling apart if their project manager is jumping ship. Esp since small miniature firms means that he's likely doing a lot more than just project managing behind the scenes.
Of course that might just be Resurrection, however considering that SD took all that money for a fan-service release of models; then failed to actually make it in the material they said they would; its likely meant all money for Resurrection has vanished. Which is somewhat what I and others predicted a good while back. It was a real oddity that they'd run a KS for one game whilst saying they had background funds for a totally different version of the same game. It was another one of those warning signs that made you think either they've got someone rich bankrolling them; or they've got their numbers wrong.
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Post by: Fenriswulf
Yep, I was worried that this might eventuate as it has, and my concerns have, unfortunately, become reality. They were on shaky ground from the start, with no real clear way of being able to supply what they had promised. The smart people either didn't back, or dropped out early before the game closed, the others have just been taken for a ride.
It's a shame to see Confrontation end out like this. They were one of my favourite miniature manufacturers, so to see them end up like they have is disappointing.
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Post by: Sarouan
It's the end, Sans Détour is in judicial liquidation since 04/08/2020.
https://www.societe.com/societe/sans-detour-504290206.html
Didn't go with a bang, barely a wet fart.
Of course, nothing was announced so far. It's just people who found out by reading the information elsewhere.
RIP.
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Post by: Overread
A huge shame for any who backed, but I'm not surprised. Considering that many of their other firms did exactly the same thing the big thing now will be if the licence comes up for sale (who knows those Ukrainian recasters might legit buy the licence now - though they've their own game now); or if they manage to keep repeating their old tricks of killing off one firm and starting another. A pattern which at some point surely has to get spotted by authorities and come to an end.
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Post by: Sarouan
 Overread wrote:(who knows those Ukrainian recasters might legit buy the licence now - though they've their own game now)
Since the license was always in the hands of Stellar ( https://www.stellarlicencing.com/), that doesn't matter if Sans Détour disappeared. Stellar is not impacted by the liquidation.
And since its founder is Piotr's buddy...well, maybe they're not buddies anymore after this debacle, but I wouldn't count too much about getting the license in competent hands for cheap...
Rumors from french people said Sans Détour is already empty anyway or left with worthless garbage. There's nothing much to scavenge on its corpse.
Pretty much sure the backers are completely fethed up. There are no miniatures hidden in some secret storage room anywhere.
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Post by: Overread
Considering how efficient they are with stripping companies of assets and closing and opening new ones its really hard to think that this is just incompetence.
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Post by: Alpharius
I do feel badly for anyone who has lost money here.
The red flags were many, and really obvious, but I still almost pledged - I loved Confrontation and would love to see it return.
But now, it is almost as if the Confrontation game is cursed or something! 
€403,575 raised here, plus whatever extra in the PM - last update on the KS page was in October... just awful...
Still, per KS T&C's, they've now got some explaining to do, right?!?
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Post by: Monkeysloth
Boy Miniature Market is probably upset as well as it seams like they invested into the line as well.
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Post by: angryboy2k
This looked inevitable right from the get go. I would not be surprised if it was the plan all along, given the histories of the actors involved.
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Post by: warboss
 Alpharius wrote:€403,575 raised here, plus whatever extra in the PM - last update on the KS page was in October... just awful...
Still, per KS T&C's, they've now got some explaining to do, right?!?
Not sure if you're kidding. KS T&C will at best allow them to request an update explaining the situation with no enforcement if they don't (or just post BS). You're really just throwing your money into the wind and hoping that your rewards will arrive on a future gust.
Wasn't the amount significantly higher at one point? I remember red flags being raised during the campaign and the funding amount backsliding significantly with them paradoxically promising more to slow the descent but I only followed it peripherally.
Yeah, the writing was on the wall with this from Day One just like with the Heroquest crowdfunder. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Monkeysloth wrote:Boy Miniature Market is probably upset as well as it seams like they invested into the line as well.
Were they foolish enough as business to put up a large sum of money up front sight unseen?
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Post by: Coenus Scaldingus
 warboss wrote:Wasn't the amount significantly higher at one point? I remember red flags being raised during the campaign and the funding amount backsliding significantly with them paradoxically promising more to slow the descent but I only followed it peripherally.
Yeah, the writing was on the wall with this from Day One just like with the Heroquest crowdfunder.
Absolutely - they ended up with less funding than they got on Day 1. Total used to be 50% more than the final number, or viewed from the peak they lost 1/3rd. https://www.kicktraq.com/projects/996665814/confrontation-classic-the-legendary-skirmish-game/
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Post by: Overread
Yeah a lot of red flags were raised. Especially as they were talking about doing all this in plastic with just the KS funds alone and then also dumping all the models and making another whole set for a re-release of the game. Basically plans that just sounded really insane and like they would only have worked if they'd raked in millions to afford all those plastic moulds.
That and almost every subsidiary company they own/use/work with tends to end up folding. Far as anyone can see they are basically just opening companies; getting investment; ferreting the money away into other companies that friends/companions own and then killing off the core company. It's hard to give them benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to inexperience when issues were raised in the first weeks of funding and when they appear very well practised at this whole process of liquidation and ferreting away the money/assets.
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Post by: Monkeysloth
warboss wrote: Alpharius wrote:€403,575 raised here, plus whatever extra in the PM - last update on the KS page was in October... just awful... Still, per KS T&C's, they've now got some explaining to do, right?!?
Not sure if you're kidding. KS T&C will at best allow them to request an update explaining the situation with no enforcement if they don't (or just post BS). You're really just throwing your money into the wind and hoping that your rewards will arrive on a future gust. Wasn't the amount significantly higher at one point? I remember red flags being raised during the campaign and the funding amount backsliding significantly with them paradoxically promising more to slow the descent but I only followed it peripherally. Yeah, the writing was on the wall with this from Day One just like with the Heroquest crowdfunder.
My Brother just finished up a successfully KSer and he was telling me last night was was surprised with his interactions with the KSer people. He said they're really clueless about how people use their platform and what people running campaigns actually want functionality wise. I mentioned they're pretty clueless about backers too. We came to the conclusion they don't really know why they're such a popular platform and don't want to change anything too much in fear of everyone just going somewhere else.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
So, what you’re saying is that the system worked exactly as designed?
Any chance there will ever be legal consequences to this type of behavior?
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Post by: Overread
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:So, what you’re saying is that the system worked exactly as designed?
Any chance there will ever be legal consequences to this type of behavior?
The problem is each person only has a small amount of money invested which is typically too small to make it worth going through legal channels. For many they'd have spent more than they lost just getting to a stage of trying to get the company to go to court let alone actually battling it out in court. Plus organising a class action is difficult; especially because it crosses international boarders. Again the costs just become too large and the potential rewards are low. In most cases when things fail its because the company has missmanaged or didn't have an income stream for when the project went over its deadlines etc... So basically even if you did win there isn't all that much left to get your money back from.
In very scam heavy situations the issue would be that it would be hard to ferret out where the money went and, again, whilst its a big sum of money, its small by professional levels.
Finally its hobby money. So this isn't peoples life investments or insurance or such; its their "play money" that they spent on the hobby. It's important to them, but its not life or death to them. So for many its easier to write it off than it is to go through the whole mess of going through the courts.
I suspect the only way it would ever get off the ground is if someone who was a backer is also a lawyer in the right field to actually just do the legwork themselves and get the ball rolling. Or if someone with significant personal finances wants to make a point and is willing to spend more to get a company to court just to make the point.
So in a way what makes KS work also acts as a sort of protection that, sadly, works for the benefit of those who might want to scam
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Post by: GreenScorpion
The issue is that in such cases the only party with enough money for a legal solution would be Kickstarter itself, which doesn't really know what people are doing behind the scenes or whether something is an honest company suffering delays and unforeseen costs or a scammer just going about stealing money.
One way to help prevent those issues would be for Kickstarter to do background checks, but that just means you might be unable to get your project funded because you have no background in the area for example and are thus a liability, even if your campaign is adequately structured.
Essentially the only way to reduce this issue is to cut on potentially shady creators, throwing out many good people along as well. There is no perfect solution.
One of the things that I have thought when thinking about using crowd funding for future projects is precisely whether or not I would be able to deliver what I promised, but that is not always the case.
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Post by: Overread
Aye a lot of the KS are run by people who have no or limited background and are using it specifically to start something. Or they have a background in one area (eg making a comic) and are using the KS to start up something in a new direction (books of the comic).
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Post by: ced1106
Monkeysloth wrote:Boy Miniature Market is probably upset as well as it seams like they invested into the line as well.
I read the KS comments, and MM supposedly would only buy the overstock. Since there's no overstock, MM isn't out any money.
Drew (Odinson) in the comments is good in providing information. If anyone really wants to know what's going on, I recommend reading it.
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Post by: odinsgrandson
ced1106 wrote: Monkeysloth wrote:Boy Miniature Market is probably upset as well as it seams like they invested into the line as well.
I read the KS comments, and MM supposedly would only buy the overstock. Since there's no overstock, MM isn't out any money.
Drew (Odinson) in the comments is good in providing information. If anyone really wants to know what's going on, I recommend reading it.
Thank you.
In this particular instance, I don't know anything about the specific deal between Miniatures Market and Sans Detour, and I think the person who originally posted that was speculating.
But it is probable. Retailers generally don't pay up front for pre-orders because they need to constantly use their sales to purchase new stock (so they can't spend money on something that doesn't go on the shelves right away). Not paying full price up front is the main feature of CMON's retail pledge program for this reason.
So it is possible that Miniatures Market did pay a portion up front. I've been told that Confrontation was a big deal in the local scene for MM, so it isn't impossible that they talked themselves into attempting to bail out the game.
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Post by: Alpharius
warboss wrote: Alpharius wrote:€403,575 raised here, plus whatever extra in the PM - last update on the KS page was in October... just awful...
Still, per KS T&C's, they've now got some explaining to do, right?!?
Not sure if you're kidding. KS T&C will at best allow them to request an update explaining the situation with no enforcement if they don't (or just post BS). You're really just throwing your money into the wind and hoping that your rewards will arrive on a future gust.
Yeah, I was mostly kidding.
Sans Detour is *supposed* to know detail where the money went, but, yeah, probably not going to happen.
Still, there have been cases in the past where legal means were brought to bear against KS campaigns that went belly up like this... who knows?
(No breath holding though please! )
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Post by: odinsgrandson
Overread wrote: BobtheInquisitor wrote:So, what you’re saying is that the system worked exactly as designed?
Any chance there will ever be legal consequences to this type of behavior?
The problem is each person only has a small amount of money invested which is typically too small to make it worth going through legal channels. For many they'd have spent more than they lost just getting to a stage of trying to get the company to go to court let alone actually battling it out in court. Plus organising a class action is difficult; especially because it crosses international boarders. Again the costs just become too large and the potential rewards are low. In most cases when things fail its because the company has missmanaged or didn't have an income stream for when the project went over its deadlines etc... So basically even if you did win there isn't all that much left to get your money back from.
In very scam heavy situations the issue would be that it would be hard to ferret out where the money went and, again, whilst its a big sum of money, its small by professional levels.
Finally its hobby money. So this isn't peoples life investments or insurance or such; its their "play money" that they spent on the hobby. It's important to them, but its not life or death to them. So for many its easier to write it off than it is to go through the whole mess of going through the courts.
I suspect the only way it would ever get off the ground is if someone who was a backer is also a lawyer in the right field to actually just do the legwork themselves and get the ball rolling. Or if someone with significant personal finances wants to make a point and is willing to spend more to get a company to court just to make the point.
So in a way what makes KS work also acts as a sort of protection that, sadly, works for the benefit of those who might want to scam
Ah- legal action against Kickstarter creators. Here's how this goes:
- If the local legal authorities decide that a criminal case has merit, they can press charges. This is what happened with The Doom That Came to Atlantic City. There are many reasons why this might not happen, though.
- Backers can persue a civil lawsuit against the company, but I haven't yet seen one get off the ground. The closest was against Prodos, but apparently Prodos moved offices out of the UK before it could come to fruition.
- With the company out of business, people they owe are out of luck. There's really no company left to sue for damages.
Usually this only affects business partners, but it happens to customers in traditional retail models as well. I mean, if you had a pre-order or gift card with Mediaplay, Sears or K-Mart when they went out of business, you were out of luck. A little closer to home are the customers of New Wave Mail Order or Maelstrom Games who never got what they were owed.
Obviously, Kickstarter creats a situation where this is all more visible, but it isn't like this never happened before.
- Fixing crowd funding to be a safer place for backers seems like it would necessarily make it a less friendly place for new creators and defeat its purpose of eliminating gatekeeping. At least I don't see a way to have one without the other.
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Post by: Monkeysloth
 odinsgrandson wrote: ced1106 wrote: Monkeysloth wrote:Boy Miniature Market is probably upset as well as it seams like they invested into the line as well.
I read the KS comments, and MM supposedly would only buy the overstock. Since there's no overstock, MM isn't out any money. Drew (Odinson) in the comments is good in providing information. If anyone really wants to know what's going on, I recommend reading it.
Thank you. In this particular instance, I don't know anything about the specific deal between Miniatures Market and Sans Detour, and I think the person who originally posted that was speculating. But it is probable. Retailers generally don't pay up front for pre-orders because they need to constantly use their sales to purchase new stock (so they can't spend money on something that doesn't go on the shelves right away). Not paying full price up front is the main feature of CMON's retail pledge program for this reason. So it is possible that Miniatures Market did pay a portion up front. I've been told that Confrontation was a big deal in the local scene for MM, so it isn't impossible that they talked themselves into attempting to bail out the game.
My speculation was based off of the KSer update https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/996665814/confrontation-classic-the-legendary-skirmish-game/posts/2540914 Even your comment in that update states that MM probably paid some amount for the boxes they reserved. There's no way SD would make a big deal out of a no cash upfront reservation on non-existing product. Lets also not forgot MM made a big deal about them having the confrontation minis at their gencon booth last year. They had a webpage, no longer around nor on the wayback machine, all about them. Also MM does distribution too and distributors will sometimes pay in advance for pre-orders. I don't think they paid SD a hundred grand for those boxes but they gave them something I'm sure. Even letting SD use their name is a form of capital that SD could use to get more orders.
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Post by: odinsgrandson
You make some good points. It is entirely possible that Miniatures Market is out a lot of money over this.
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Post by: ScarletRose
odinsgrandson wrote:You make some good points. It is entirely possible that Miniatures Market is out a lot of money over this.
Another sale on Warmahordes coming up then?
---
I gotta say this came as no surprise. I got burned on Robotech and now I'm cautious on any KS that promises the moon.
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Post by: Theophony
odinsgrandson wrote:You make some good points. It is entirely possible that Miniatures Market is out a lot of money over this.
Which could be a really GOOD thing. I don't wish them bad, they are my local shop being only a couple miles away. But if they did put in a lot of money and then it doesn't deliver there is always the chance they could sue for compensation, which could lead to them acquiring the right to Confrontation  . That would be a huge boon for the game as MM could then have the game as their flagship. They bought the game All Quiet on the Martian Front, so another game isn't out of the question. Also with their obvious connection to CMON, they could go full boardgame plastic with it.
all just hopeful speculation.
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Post by: Monkeysloth
I just question if there's really enough demand for Confrontation to bring it back in plastic? I love me some good PVC minis but so many people have been burned by it, even from the original Rackham shutting down, I just don't see how the game can ever come back after multiple attempts and failures.
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Post by: Vertrucio
It's an opportunity to make use of all that varied sculpting talent to create a new game without the baggage, where the miniatures are focused on a similar stylized aesthetic.
As it stands, it's a 15 year old game, Rackham collapsed 10 years ago. I think miniature companies of today could do better than to follow in the footsteps of 2 different companies that ran themselves into the ground.
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Post by: Monkeysloth
I mean that was the point of CMoN Way of Kings. After they gave up on Confrontation Phoenix they just took the Ex-Rackham talent they had and put them on that game.
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Post by: ced1106
 Vertrucio wrote:It's an opportunity to make use of all that varied sculpting talent to create a new game without the baggage, where the miniatures are focused on a similar stylized aesthetic.
\\
Also, Legends of Signum? Sans Detour, of course, decided to go after the creators of that game for their recastings after funding.
Automatically Appended Next Post: odinsgrandson wrote:- Fixing crowd funding to be a safer place for backers seems like it would necessarily make it a less friendly place for new creators and defeat its purpose of eliminating gatekeeping. At least I don't see a way to have one without the other.
I keep wondering, though, how many more backers KS would have if KS didn't have the "wild west" risk of backers losing all their money with little recourse.
Creators, of course, have their own problems with KS. Something like 10% or 15% of pledged money isn't collected. Backers who cancel their pledges through their credit card result in the creator paying refund charges and lower their credit reputation (?). And, of course, KS doesn't help the creator find a retail channel, nor a way to reprint product with uncertain demand (eg. expansion sets).
From a Gloomhaven thread, I got the impression that retail pre-orders only reserved a copy of an existing print run. Anyone know if there's a pre-order system that funds the publishing company before their product is made, but with a guarantee that the product will be delivered or your money back?
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
ced1106 wrote:
From a Gloomhaven thread, I got the impression that retail pre-orders only reserved a copy of an existing print run. Anyone know if there's a pre-order system that funds the publishing company before their product is made, but with a guarantee that the product will be delivered or your money back?
Nothing that would work, anything were the money is actually needed would be subject to the same problems of a company failing to make the items for whatever reason (scam, overoptimistic costings, getting stiffed by their manufacturer, unforeseen crisis etc) and your left with a business in administration and nobody to pay the refund
anybody large enough not too need the money at all to pay for the product/design/staff etc is probably not going to use the service as it ties them into release dates nd what product actually gets made far more than is ideal
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Post by: Sarouan
 Theophony wrote: odinsgrandson wrote:You make some good points. It is entirely possible that Miniatures Market is out a lot of money over this.
Which could be a really GOOD thing. I don't wish them bad, they are my local shop being only a couple miles away. But if they did put in a lot of money and then it doesn't deliver there is always the chance they could sue for compensation, which could lead to them acquiring the right to Confrontation . That would be a huge boon for the game as MM could then have the game as their flagship. They bought the game All Quiet on the Martian Front, so another game isn't out of the question. Also with their obvious connection to CMON, they could go full boardgame plastic with it.
all just hopeful speculation.
Unfortunately, since SD doesn't own the Confrontation license, MM can't buy anything from them as compensation.
Let's not forget the license is in the hands of Stellar licensing. Basically they can say "so long suckers!" and you can't do anything about it.
But I guess Stellar licensing could make a deal with another society to sell Confrontation miniatures, sure. I wonder if there will be many willing to do so after the bad reputation of the SD's kickstarter, though...
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Post by: Overread
I'd wager since they've made a load of models at some stage Stella will licence it out to another firm managed by someone else in their friend/business circle with the hope of making a big amount of noise in a year or two. Basically try and pull the wool over people's eyes.
Honestly I'd say go buy into Legends of Signum - same aesthetic designs and the team behind it seem far more competent! https://signumgames.com
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
I think Stella Licencing is owned by one of the San Detour owners (the finance director?) so unless there is criminal finding against him which leads to its seizure I can't see it going anywhere (or anybody sensible wanting to hand money over for the use of it)
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Post by: .Mikes.
Monkeysloth wrote:I just question if there's really enough demand for Confrontation to bring it back in plastic?
Given how much and how cuikly funding came in for this KS before the rat started smelling there absoluetly is.
I've been saying for a while that game fo Confrontation is dead, mostly thanks to the inept crookedness of the people holding the licence. However, if someone were to create their own game based heavily on the 3rd ed rules (which, while great, are 15 years old and creaky so need some tidying) and spread the word far and wide as to the aim I do think, done properly, it would do well.
One of the main issues in the past are the rpesence of recasters, but much of the old Rackham line is just that, and there's plenty of opportunity to grow from those old sculpts into new ones, which would also sideline places like Cadwallon.
I half jokingly spoke to Pete at Demented Games (who make twisted) that they should get the licence to do just that as they're known for making great models people just love to paint even if they don't play the game (a la Conf), but he said it's not going to happen. And he also pointed out quite a few of the Conf rules made it into Twisted.
Anyway, yes there's a market for a return of Conf if it's done right.
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Post by: ced1106
Mike, do you think Legends of Signum, Twisted, or another game will be a "successful" spiritual successor to Confrontation? i guess by "successful" I mean will have a devoted following or something like that...
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Post by: Alpharius
Twisted! could be, it has similar rules and FANTASTIC miniatures, but it is a small outfit at this point, based in Australia - it definitely deserves to be more...popular/successful/etc.!
But yes, I agree with .Mikes. - Confrontation could still be a player in the market, if it could somehow land in the hands of a reputable company.
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Post by: Sacredroach
I concur, and not just due to nostalgia. When Confrontation was new and only in French, me and some friends began buying for the sculpts. When we found translated rules, we began playing. When Nemesis came out, we played the hell out of it. At-43? We still play a few times a year, as it is a damn good game...and we own all the armies. Ragnarok? Well, an attempt was made...
Did we pledge? Yes...3 of us did, and after about 4 days 2 dropped it and I stayed at 1€. Will we go after a new edition by someone reputable? Yes.
Aarklash is a wonderful setting, and just the right kind of fantasy world. Currently Mierce and Signum are filling that void for Rackham, but we are always hoping...
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Post by: Alpharius
HA!
I wish Mierce's ruleset was "only" as complex as Confrontation's was!
But yes, their miniatures are, for the most part, brilliant.
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
I think it'll take a dedicated effort to see this game come back, like Para Bellum is doing with Conquest. Put the legwork in and play the long game.
It'd be great to see Twisted get to a similar level, but I don't know if they could levy the resources necessary to do that.
Signum has the model quality and output but their flagship game is more of ccg hybrid- although I believe the Dragon hunter one they made plays a bit different.
I think they'd rather continue to carve out their own niche game- wise these days and move away from the stigma of being known as a Rackham ripoff.
I also think they'd do better to focus their attentions on the war game crowd rather than board and card gamers who are a bit more loathe to build models, but that's their prerogative.
Or you go the Wrath of Kings route, where you make a game that carries on the spirit with nice models, rules, and fluff- but hopefully with more support! Or just bring it back. I don't mind.
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Post by: Overread
I honestly hope the Signum team does well and moves fully away form being recasters into supporting their own game full time. I'm not one to support recasting in general, however as a team they are showing a passion for the hobby and ploughing resources back into the industry through their own game.
I also recall that when the Confrontation KS got underway they did also stop selling the Confrontation models on their site; even after the Confrontation team then sabotaged the Signum Kickstarter for a while (which still funded well).
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Post by: Monkeysloth
 .Mikes. wrote: Monkeysloth wrote:I just question if there's really enough demand for Confrontation to bring it back in plastic?
Given how much and how cuikly funding came in for this KS before the rat started smelling there absoluetly is.
I've been saying for a while that game fo Confrontation is dead, mostly thanks to the inept crookedness of the people holding the licence. However, if someone were to create their own game based heavily on the 3rd ed rules (which, while great, are 15 years old and creaky so need some tidying) and spread the word far and wide as to the aim I do think, done properly, it would do well.
One of the main issues in the past are the rpesence of recasters, but much of the old Rackham line is just that, and there's plenty of opportunity to grow from those old sculpts into new ones, which would also sideline places like Cadwallon.
I half jokingly spoke to Pete at Demented Games (who make twisted) that they should get the licence to do just that as they're known for making great models people just love to paint even if they don't play the game (a la Conf), but he said it's not going to happen. And he also pointed out quite a few of the Conf rules made it into Twisted.
Anyway, yes there's a market for a return of Conf if it's done right.
I think there's demand for the game but not in plastic as the person I was replying too was talking about. Especially after this KSer just cost a lot of people money. The demand isn't going to be as high next time.
I mean SD were crooked as hell but CMoN wasn't (well at least at the time they had the licenses as we're still waiting for their audit review) but dropped it do to recasters causing them too much of a headache (official reason) but probably also a strong pushback from their rules rewrite as Confrontation fans aren't really welcoming of change from my experience. This is not really uncommon with groups that keep a dead game alive for like 15 years.
I'm sure Peter would love to bring it back, I've known him since the old days of Dragon Painting (though FB friends haven't talked with him much over the years), but I think him and Sebastian are happy doing their own thing. That brings a bigger issue that creatives want to be creative without the baggage of the expectations of a very well established fan group. You're restricted quite a lot in making new stuff without really causing an uproar so it takes someone that really, really wants to live exclusively in those very firm and set expectations (or one of the original designers/creators) to take on the project.
Also if we're listing out games with Confrontation rules inspirations Bushido has many as well and the designers have stated Rackham closing down the catalyst for them creating the game.
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Post by: Sarouan
Honestly, recasters don't have anything to do with keeping Confrontation from being reborn again. Recasters just provide miniatures that aren't available somewhere else. I call it BS on Cmon's official reason to get rid of the license - seeing what they did with Wrath of King, I believe the true reason is more about Cmon not knowing what to do with it to make it profitable for them.
And it is tied to the fans of Confrontation, in the end. When the Kickstarter was done, it was all about nostalgy - bringing back the miniatures and rules of the past days. Even though SD (and Joss) talked about the next step of making a new game, I believe they knew as well the real difficulty is to bring something new with Confrontation that won't make the nostalgic fans mad.
We see it with GW's Blood Bowl new season changing the rules (even if it's not a complete overhaul) - veterans aren't happy with it at all, because that's not what they wanted. They just wanted the same teams than before with the same rules they know. I think Confrontation's problem is that as well.
That's why the most interesting things that happen from Confrontation are actually games that are inspired from it, but aren't Confrontation. The license in itself is just too burdensome - you can't do anything too new, yet you have to bring something new to make it profitable. It's easier to make a whole new license, really. At least, you won't have to suffer the comparison with its past.
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Post by: Overread
As I recall Cmon also put some very high prices on the few models for Confrontation that they did sell - I seem to recall one of the dragons at something like $300 or so. Ergo they went very high end with the price that likely cut out a huge portion even of the nostalgic market.
I think the issue with old fans only wanting the old game is valid, but like Bloodbowl once its out, provided it takes off, then it should grow with new fans. Plus sometimes the anti-change is just random fear of change and once its done people move on.
The real issue Confrontation has had is missmanagement and that's been present since before its demise (since it helped contribute to it). Since its demise its had terrible management. It's hanging on, but it lacks the right attitude, and finances, behind it to get it off the ground again.
Sadly at this stage SD have likely killed it in a terrible way. The KS didn't just fail its folded like all their other firms and that's going to leave a huge sour experience for what is supposed to be the biggest core of fans. That will only be restored with a new firm taking over - perhaps even only a big established name that has a good track record. Not SD or any of their other licence firms - that bridge is burned and honestly I hope it remains burned when you look at how used to closing, folding and killing off firms they are.
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Post by: Monkeysloth
Overread wrote:As I recall Cmon also put some very high prices on the few models for Confrontation that they did sell - I seem to recall one of the dragons at something like $300 or so. Ergo they went very high end with the price that likely cut out a huge portion even of the nostalgic market.
They did but at first everyone was fine with it as the first few items were models that had never been released or had been really rare. It was the one two punch of charging really high prices for the gargoyles, the fionnas (easily available things at the time on ebay) and then they released the dragon which they weren't even casting but were from a wharehouse and were all from the Rackham days at a really high price over what it originally was that people got upset and CMoN saw the sales really drop as people were pretty sure CMoN paid pennies on the dollar for those dragons. If it had been closer to the original MSRP people probably would have been fine with the dragon but not at like double the price it was expected at.
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Post by: Duncan_Idaho
The Rackham IP by now is dead. SD really nailed it (pun intended). The rights are all over the place and chances of getting all of them are close to nil.
Best thing is to take the rules, tidy them up and create a similar but different universe.
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Post by: .Mikes.
*taps mic* is this thing on?
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Post by: Sarouan
It is. I was reading the thread since its beginnings, it's interesting with the insight from now. Fun too, when you interacted with Duncan_Idaho at the time you were a supporter of the KS and doubting his words about his knowledge of how the industry works. 
On other news, we have some words from Christian Grussi, the artistic director from Sans-Détour, who confirms he received his letter of dismissal and can now "speak freely". He said he wasn't part of the Confrontation KS's team, but he was working on the Aventure's project on Ulule. Of course, it's in french, but you can have a general idea with Google Trad.
Source : https://rafiot-fringant.com/retour-sur-sans-detour/?fbclid=IwAR3w-Pso5rf9qvenkVDowUKgBvYYHrjG8qYnKSTyJr8hXk9MIK7Fz4MMQIE
Google Trad
I am finally officially free, released from any obligation, after 12 years. I received the termination letter. The Sans-Détour period, a company I helped found, is now part of my past. And I am relieved. So much so that it's hard to imagine. So yes, there were some very beautiful things, but unfortunately overshadowed by a descent into Hell.
What I'm sharing in this article is just my experience, what I know, and what don't know. I am writing these words because I have seen so many comments, questions, and true truths come and go with bombast being nothing but a tissue of rumors and unfounded allegations. It therefore seems necessary to me to put things in a factual way, because I do not put any faith in the diatribes of those who claim to know. We even hope that it will enlighten them a bit and that they can take the necessary step back.
First and foremost, it's important to understand that Sans-Détour quickly became a two-headed entity, with the production team on one side and the “big guys” with a financial vision on the other. That the employees' offices were located in Nancy, away from decision-makers, with e-mails and a quarterly meeting as the main channel of communication.
This mode of operation could very well have been viable, if the two branches of this entity had not taken different paths. How many times have I read that the books are superb, the quality is great, but the management is dire? This two-headed aspect gave the beginning of an answer to this state of affairs: a production team with the objective of releasing beautiful, quality titles. And on the other, purely financial goals.
So yes, I know it takes both for a business to run. And I have nothing against that.
Again, the problem is not so much the "structural" state of affairs of this current model. But the dichotomy that resulted from it. How many times have we received directives such as "we need a crowdfunding that has such and such a financial objective by such and such a date", all within very tight deadlines, to have to improvise in a month a project which, under normal circumstances, should have taken several.
When I think back to the year, if not more, that it took me to orchestrate the simple and collector's edition of "Par-Beyond the Hallucinated Mountains" or the first edition of "Masques de Nyarlathothep", it's a miracle of having succeeded in releasing such imposing titles thereafter, within increasingly tight deadlines. Wondering where worries like "the plastic steel criterium" or the faux duck tar leather satchel come from? Look no further: very tight deadlines and reduced production costs, all imposed in the name of profitability and profit.
Already, at this stage, as editorial or / and artistic director, I only had the title, because in fact, I was just asked to manage a project imposed by purely economic choices so that it would be the most profitable. possible, with the means at hand (yes, I know, given the sums collected, it may seem ubiquitous, but it was indeed the case). If I am writing this, it is not to absolve myself of some responsibility, because if only to accept this fact, I had it.
It went on for a while, but soon enough I couldn't take it anymore. Really more. It was all too far from my aspirations, from my philosophy. So why didn't you slam the door, you will say? Simply because to do that, you have to have the means or the opportunities. And like many, I need to fill the fridge ...
Add to that the disastrous internal communication between these two halves of the entity: not only did we no longer speak the same language, but as employees we found out through networks or external contacts what was going on. Learning about the loss of the Call of Cthulhu license along with everyone else when we were told internally that there was no problem ... It's pretty magical, after all. I know, it's hard to believe, and yet ...
Let us now move on to the thorniest subjects, which crystallized a lot of reactions, provoked a lot of debate. Adventures and Confrontation. In my opinion, these projects have concentrated all of the aforementioned flaws, and more. A logic of cavalry. Because in hindsight, I'm convinced, it was just that: empty cash registers with the urgent need to bring in cash, without any consideration for the project itself.
I was in charge of the Adventures file at Sans-Détour. And everything was going very well with Mahyar. We had passionate and productive discussions every week on the construction of the game, the editorial line, and it was going well. I even saw a rich and interesting universe looming, more than the show already allowed. In short, it was the possibility of transforming an urgent crowdfunding into a great project.
But it all came to an end when I found out through email exchanges that even other Sans-Détour writers were no longer being paid, contrary to management claims.
The legitimate requests for accounting elements to produce the game having gone unheeded, a legal procedure followed, in order to obtain these. And Sans-Détour has remained silent. Until the day of exchanges by interposed press releases. I quote: "It is with amazement and incomprehension that Sans-Détour editions have learned ..." While for several months there have been explicit, written, legal requests from Mahyar.
I believe it was at this point, which coincided with Chaosium's public announcement of the unpaid royalties on The Call of Cthulhu, that I definitely understood that there was nothing more to save. That the facade of Sans-Détour editions was no longer a game of untruths, and that even internally we did not know what was going on.
And it took two years after these incidents to finally see the conclusion. Before I get to that, I would like to talk about Project Confrontation. I didn't participate in this one, so I saw it from a distance. The only intervention the Nancy office had was limited to the graphics. Not even access to crowdfunding to possibly react to comments ... In short, we had no control at all. For us, it was incomprehensible to see the launch without any team presence on the kickstarter to answer questions from underwriters.
And even if later, according to the great financial visionaries, it was a great success, I myself had no doubts about the disaster not only of crowdfunding as such, but also of its consequences.
One of the most common questions I have seen on social media over the past two years is "where did the money go"? It must be said that it's a hell of a lot, these two cumulative funding ... Frankly, I do not know. Because even by torturing our brains with all the possible calculations, knowing that no one has been paid, or almost, by removing the amounts of known wages, the charges ... we can only ask the same question: where is it money?
After all these adventures, expectations, anxieties, here I am finally free from a more than burdensome situation. Spending years, and I weigh my words, bound by contract, unable to do anything, not able to express myself, not being able to say what I thought about the situation, is not only terribly frustrating, but destructive.
Spending two years getting paid being shelved, with nothing to do, when I offered every possible legal solution to breaking the contract, is incomprehensible to me. My only assumption: I was being pushed to resign. Which was not possible for me. I know, it's mind-boggling to think that a TPE would rather hold someone down all this time rather than come up with a quick and easy arrangement. If you don't believe me, I couldn't blame you, it's such a huge situation.
In any case, all of this will have taught me a lot. Especially the things that must not be done. At least I took advantage of this time to prepare my personal projects, under the colors of Rafiot Fringant, in line with my values.
These latent projects that I could not develop during those "Factory" years where internal creations had no place, because only potentially juicy licenses were worthy of the catalog.
So, with my freedom, I can fully express myself, let myself go, try things out, rediscover the pleasure of writing in order to write, without financial obsessions, without results objectives. Become the craftsman I never should have stopped being. Here are some projects in progress and already well advanced in my reconstruction process.
A board game with soldiers and dinosaurs, to play with the toys of our childhood, Dino Soldiers, and available in PnP.
A narrative role-playing game, based on blackjack mechanics, which is being written and will be released soon, Tribute. A UFO which I hope will find favor in the eyes of its public.
And a new edition of Arkeos, which I've been working on for a long time, is in the pipeline. Make a new look with this Indiana Jones universe that I still cherish so much.
Hoping to have enlightened you a little bit about this soap opera which will have spilled a lot of ink, and wasted years for some, money for others. Hoping to have enlightened you a little bit about this soap opera which will have spilled a lot of ink, and wasted years for some, money for others. By wishing never to see such a mess again, near or far.
And for those who would like to know more about my journey, you can read this article.
Obviously, he's speaking to defend himself here and we only have his side of the story.
But then, he's saying that Sans-Détour's management always pushed for crowdfunding with only a financial objective to achieve in a tight schedule. He's also wondering where went the money, since he's saying almost "no one got paid".
Apparently, he's also saying the employees were lied to by the management, including the Chaosium debacle that they learned mostly the same time as us backers.
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Post by: Voss
Not sure if its the translation or the 'woe to poor Artist, shackled to Base Industry,' but I got nothing out of that. Beyond that maybe financial shenanigans happened and he's pleading ignorance (and making his own games, with blackjack and dinosaurs, but I'm not sure if that's serious or just memes at this point)
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Post by: Sarouan
Voss wrote:Not sure if its the translation or the 'woe to poor Artist, shackled to Base Industry,' but I got nothing out of that. Beyond that maybe financial shenanigans happened and he's pleading ignorance (and making his own games, with blackjack and dinosaurs, but I'm not sure if that's serious or just memes at this point)
No, that's basically the summary of the french version. Google Trad is actually right on the spot on the feeling here.
And he's indeed starting his own company for games he always wanted to make.
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Post by: odinsgrandson
I think most of that was "Dude, it wasn't me! I was as in the dark as the backers."
The arrangement fits from what we can tell happened with Joss (it looks like he kept working on the rules with playtest groups, and was suddenly fired when the money ran out- or maybe they just stopped paying him).
I wonder if Sans Detour ran their whole business like a Ponzi or other scam- it was just a matter of gathering enough money to make running away worth it.
But even with all the cash that SD brought in with Confrontation, it didn't bring in enough to deliver.
 ScarletRose wrote: odinsgrandson wrote:You make some good points. It is entirely possible that Miniatures Market is out a lot of money over this.
Another sale on Warmahordes coming up then?
---
I gotta say this came as no surprise. I got burned on Robotech and now I'm cautious on any KS that promises the moon.
I completely agree. The signs that this was going to fail were there from the very start.
Still, I think people look at the game that made them so happy once upon a time and believe in it because they want it to be true.
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Post by: warboss
Voss wrote:Not sure if its the translation or the 'woe to poor Artist, shackled to Base Industry,' but I got nothing out of that. Beyond that maybe financial shenanigans happened and he's pleading ignorance (and making his own games, with blackjack and dinosaurs, but I'm not sure if that's serious or just memes at this point)
He seems to be breaking out on his own and is putting this out likely in part as a CYA to protect his reputation ahead of what is likely to be his own crowdfunding. We saw the same thing when management from Prodos broke off and did their own project crowdfunding. In the ex-Prodos case, they had to play catch up with their spin (since they forgot to scrub the conflicting public info proving otherwise) whereas he is trying to get ahead of it. It's a smart move on his part.
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Post by: Overread
I suspect we might get more of these as the company dissolves and contracts end or people simply decide that there's no "threat" in the NDA contract and break out without warning.
The real risk is that "everyone" ends up writing the same sort of "it wasn't me it was someone else" story which results in those who were responsible getting away with it all over again. The other is that some names might just vanish into the system - taking up apparent minor roles in new firms with new ideas and starts the ball rolling again.
If there was any criminal intention/company drive behind SD and its operation you can bet they'll likely do this all over again - perhaps with a new firm and new name and new IP; but you can bet if anyone has profited a lot from this they'll like as not try it again.
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Post by: JWBS
Damn that's a fairly large amount of money to lose without a trace. And looking at the promised miniatures I can understand why some were tempted. I definitely would not have backed. I love the minis, but I've been burned a tiny bit by KS and once was enough (Creature Caster), plus I own a a huge pile of metal Confrontation stuff that I got for pennies when the company caved the first time (or maybe it was the second or third). Either way I definitely wouldn't have trusted a Kickstarter / Confrontation combo no matter what they were offering so I'm unsurprised that many others were of similar disposition.
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Post by: Sarouan
Overread wrote:I suspect we might get more of these as the company dissolves and contracts end or people simply decide that there's no "threat" in the NDA contract and break out without warning.
I'm not sure. I believe most people involved would rather just forget that sad episode of their life and move on, like Josselyn. Mr Grussi did because he started a new company involved with making games and thus has more incentive to clear his name as soon as possible - especially because he was involved with the Adventure Ulule's project.
Even if, to be honest, I don't really buy his NDA justification for talking just now. I believe the rats like Piotr ran away a long time ago. He certainly could have talked sooner if he wanted to, but it was better for him to wait for the bitter end to play it safer. He's just trying to salvage his skin, here. Which is perfectly human, in the end.
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Post by: ced1106
JWBS wrote:Damn that's a fairly large amount of money to lose without a trace.
Speculation is that they used the money to fund and/or close their other companies. IIRC, Sans Detour needed even *more* money, as they solicited for investors after the Confrontation KS?
They also delivered some resins, so, technically, some backers got something.
It's unfortunate when an IP is owned or licensed by someone who doesn't give it the respect it deserves. I've learned my lesson in a Cryptozoic KS campaign to *never* base your KS decision on the IP.
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Post by: Overread
Far as I can tell the money gets spent going into other firms that then go bankrupt. One gets the feeling that the upper ends of the firm were simply opening new sub-businesses; ferreting money into them; running up debts and then closing those firms. Moving money around until no one lower down knows where the actual money is - just that there's never enough.
The other option is that the higher ups were just really really bad at business and threw good money after bad constantly whilst being unable to make anything work; getting to the point where they started new projects to fund old ones hoping that one of the older ones would turn into a cash-cow which could then fund the latter ones.
The only thing that makes me less likely to believe the second is that this wasn't just one firm chasing money; they were efficient in starting and bankrupting several sub-firms.
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Post by: Monkeysloth
Sarouan wrote: Overread wrote:I suspect we might get more of these as the company dissolves and contracts end or people simply decide that there's no "threat" in the NDA contract and break out without warning.
I'm not sure. I believe most people involved would rather just forget that sad episode of their life and move on, like Josselyn. Mr Grussi did because he started a new company involved with making games and thus has more incentive to clear his name as soon as possible - especially because he was involved with the Adventure Ulule's project.
Even if, to be honest, I don't really buy his NDA justification for talking just now. I believe the rats like Piotr ran away a long time ago. He certainly could have talked sooner if he wanted to, but it was better for him to wait for the bitter end to play it safer. He's just trying to salvage his skin, here. Which is perfectly human, in the end.
I don't know how French/ EU law is on NDAs but in some States here in the US if you're high enough in the company and break that you're screwed. In my State you have to be considered essential to the project for the NDA to be enforceable but even if your not it's a lot of money to defend yourself. So for me I can see why one would not want to speak out, not a lot of money in honest work in RPGs. I've also worked for a crap company that treated employees and customers like dirt but oddly paid pretty well and was terrified about leaving and not being employable anywhere else due to the current market and other factors. So I by that too. Paying rent and putting food on the table is a big motivator to hunker down and hope it gets better.
Now that's not to say that everything Mr Grussi says should be taking at face value, and from what it sounds like the French Tabletop community people will dig deeper, but it's a reasoning that shouldn't be automatically brushed aside either.
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Post by: Overread
Aye I can appreciate staff on a sinking ship still holding on - especially in today's working market where we've a market with far fewer job openings (and in good positions not just min wage or part time/random hours). As you say bread on the table and rent is very important to people and not everyone has the option to just up sticks and move out on principle.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
I think it's a plausible claim, but there's no proof it went down like that,
I'd also worry that any IP developed while working at SD could belong to SD and might be at risk as the firm is wound up (especially if the French state is owed any money)
(depending on how his contact was written, and if it had a ND element that was strong enough to keep him silent while he KNEW there were major problems suggests it was written by somebody with at least some legal skill)
so beware when throwing money at anything other than a simple retail transaction with him even if you do believe his claims
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Post by: Monkeysloth
There's no proof that it didn't which is always a problem in situations like this. I didn't word it very well, have a bit of a head cold, but in the past the French gaming community always digs pretty deep into drama/controversy like this (just seeing the things they find earlier in this thread shows that) so I'm sure more employee's viewpoints will come out if not just by them talking to someone and that someone putting it up on a forum. Might take a few years but there's a decent chance we'll have a better picture as it seams to be a pretty tight nit community with a lot of people knowing people and so on.
so beware when throwing money at anything other than a simple retail transaction with him even if you do believe his claims
I would think that trust would need to be earned for sure.
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Post by: Gallahad
 Gallahad wrote:I currently estimate the probability of delivery no more than 1 year late and miniature quality equal to or exceeding the old pre painted plastics to be about 20%.
I said the above in April of 2018. Glad I made the right call and didn't give them a penny.
It is interesting to go back and read this thread starting around page 16-17. The community largely did a good job trying to warn people about the risks involved in this project, despite many having a lot of nostalgia.
Not calling anyone out, we all make mistakes in judgement. One of the benefits of being on Dakka is that there is a lot of accumulated wisdom here that we can bring to bear (or ignore at our own risk.)
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Post by: .Mikes.
Sarouan wrote:
Fun too, when you interacted with Duncan_Idaho at the time you were a supporter of the KS and doubting his words about his knowledge of how the industry works.
Link to that doubting, please.
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Post by: ced1106
 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:I'd also worry that any IP developed while working at SD could belong to SD and might be at risk as the firm is wound up (especially if the French state is owed any money)
Well, the Confrontation license itself is owned by Stellar (something), although the owners can be linked to Sans Detour. As for game mechanics, I thought there was a community-driven Confrontation game, so there's still some sort of game development going on without SD?? In any case, I didn't get the impression that SD did that much game development or that it was (or wasn't) well-received. IIRC, Some backers didn't like SD's use of icons.
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Post by: Sarouan
.Mikes. wrote:Sarouan wrote:
Fun too, when you interacted with Duncan_Idaho at the time you were a supporter of the KS and doubting his words about his knowledge of how the industry works.
Link to that doubting, please.
Yes, that's what you told him : asking links for his claims. 
But sure, here you are : https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/570/717182.page
I think you can handle to scroll down a bit to find your quotes.
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Post by: Voss
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:I think it's a plausible claim, but there's no proof it went down like that,
I'd also worry that any IP developed while working at SD could belong to SD and might be at risk as the firm is wound up (especially if the French state is owed any money)
Yeah, that crossed my mind too. That's how TSR got Gary Gygax in the end. They torpedoed his 'breakout' project 'Dangerous Journeys' because he admitted to writing at least some of it on TSR company time, and his contract said if it was done on their time, it was theirs.
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Post by: .Mikes.
I ask for links. Shocking.
As a little aside, what is less shocking but more than a little saddening is the joy some have taken in the disappointment of those who have been negatively effected by the KS implosion. It shows a side of humanity we could do with leaving behind.
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Post by: JWBS
.Mikes. wrote:
I ask for links. Shocking.
As a little aside, what is less shocking but more than a little saddening is the joy some have taken in the disappointment of those who have been negatively effected by the KS implosion. It shows a side of humanity we could do with leaving behind.
Sounding not a little bit sanctimonious here man. It's almost never a good look.
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Post by: .Mikes.
Morally superior? No. Although I do find it off he decided to come out of the woodwork and attack me for a question I asked months ago to someone with no interaction between us inbetween. Although this KS has prompted a lot of odd beheviour from a lot of people.
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Post by: Sarouan
.Mikes. wrote:Morally superior? No. Although I do find it off he decided to come out of the woodwork and attack me for a question I asked months ago to someone with no interaction between us inbetween. Although this KS has prompted a lot of odd beheviour from a lot of people.
No, I was being facetious.
I just found it funny you had the exact same behaviour while these were your own quotes, and thus could have checked easily yourself the same way I did.
But I don't really blame you here, actually. That's why I said it was fun to read that with the insight from now. That's a good point of forums, you can enjoy a small trip in the past.
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Post by: Hanskrampf
Just received (because I backed for 1€ to receive updates):
ENGLISH VERSION AT THE BOTTOM
Chère Madame, Cher Monsieur,
Vous avez acheté ou soutenu la création d’un ou plusieurs produit(s) ludique(s) mis en prévente par la société SANS DETOUR dans le cadre des financements participatifs suivants :
→ « Aventures – Le Jeu » campagne réalisée entre le 02/10/2017 et le 03/11/2017 sur le site internet ULULE.COM.
→ « Confrontation – Classic The legendary skirmish game » campagne réalisée entre le 16/04/2018 et le 17/05/2018 sur le site internet KICKSTARTER.COM.
Nous vous informons que la section F2 du Parquet de Paris a ouvert une enquête préliminaire pour des faits d’abus de confiance. Cette enquête a été confiée à la plateforme d’identification des avoirs criminels, service de police judiciaire ayant compétence sur l’ensemble du territoire national.
Le résultat des investigations en cours nous conduit à vous inviter à répondre à une LETTRE CIRCULAIRE dans laquelle vous trouverez un questionnaire et un formulaire à remplir si vous souhaitez déposer plainte.
Pourquoi et comment déposer plainte ?
La plainte a pour objectif de sanctionner pénalement (prison, amende …) l’auteur des faits dont vous vous dites victime.
Le dépôt de cette plainte est gratuit.
Si vous souhaitez déposer plainte, nous vous invitons à imprimer, remplir, signer puis nous retourner la LETTRE CIRCULAIRE par voie électronique ou postale.
Comment transmettre sa lettre circulaire remplie et signée ?
Cette lettre, remplie et signée, doit nous être retournée à l’adresse suivante : avconfplainte@interieur.gouv.fr
Merci d’indiquer en objet de l'email : RETOUR LC - NOM + Prénom.
Vous pouvez également nous transmettre la LETTRE CIRCULAIRE par voie postale à l’adresse suivante :
DCPJ/OCRGDF/PIAC
101, rue des Trois Fontanot
92000 NANTERRE
Quels sont les justificatifs à joindre dans le cadre du dépôt de plainte?
→ justificatif de paiement, uniquement dans les cas suivants :
- si vous avez effectué votre achat sur le site SANS-DETOUR.com.
- si vous avez effectué votre achat sur le site BACKERKIT.com après le 15/10/2018.
Si vous avez effectué votre achat dans le cadre de la campagne initiale de financement participatif, vous n’avez pas de justificatif de paiement à nous joindre.
→ copie de vos éventuels courriels d’échange avec la société SANS DETOUR.
→ copie de votre éventuel dépôt de plainte auprès d’un service de police ou de gendarmerie.
Comment se faire indemniser ?
Suite au dépôt de votre plainte, si vous souhaitez vous faire indemniser en tant que victime, vous pouvez vous constituer partie civile tout au long de la procédure.
Si j’ai déjà déclaré ma créance auprès du liquidateur judiciaire de SANS DETOUR ?
La déclaration de créance au liquidateur judiciaire est distincte du dépôt de plainte.
Le liquidateur peut vous représenter dans la procédure en tant que créancier mais non en tant que victime.
IMPORTANT : la LETTRE CIRCULAIRE remplie et signée doit nous parvenir avant le 15/01/2021.
Dear sir, dear madam,
You bought or supported the creation of one or several entertainment products sold by the company « SANS-DETOUR » through the following crowdfunding :
- « Aventures — Le jeu » between 10/02/2017 and 11/03/2017 on the website ULULE.COM
- « Confrontation — classic The legendary skirmish game » between 04/16/2018 and 05/17/2018 on the website KICKSTARTER.COM.
Inform you that the section F2 of the court of Paris opened a preliminary investigation for breach of trust. This investigation was entrusted to the judiciary police service which has juridiction over the french territory.
The result of the ongoing investigations lead us to invite you to answer to a standard letter "LETTRE CIRCULAIRE" in which you will find a survey and a form you will need to fill if you want to press charges.
How and why file a complaint ?
The complaint is necessary to condemn (jail, fine…) the author of this crime.
Filing this complaint is free of charge.
If you want to file a complaint, you have to print, fill, sign and send us the standard letter "LETTRE CIRCULAIRE" back by mail or post.
Please find attached the standard letter "LETTRE CIRCULAIRE" and an ENGLISH NOTICE for assistance on completing the letter.
Where can I send this standard letter ?
This completed letter "LETTRE CIRCULAIRE" must be sent to the following email : avconfplainte@interieur.gouv.fr
Indicate in subject line : RETOUR LC – Last name + First name
You can also send us the letter to the following address :
DCPJ/OCRGDF/PIAC
101 rue des trois fontanot
92000 Nanterre
What are the required pieces of my complaint ?
→ proves of payment only in those specific cases :
- If you made a purchase on « SANS-DETOUR.COM » (SANS DETOUR SHOP)
- If you made a purchase on « BACKERIT.COM » after the 10/15/2018
If you only participate in crowdfunding, no proof is needed.
→ If so, copy of your emails if you exchanged with the company SANS DETOUR
→ If so, copy of your complaint filed in a police station
How can I be compensated ?
After the complaint, as a victim, you can get compensation. As to do so, you need to become a civil party all along the procedure.
If I have already made my statement of claim to the SANS DETOUR’s judicial liquidator ?
The statement of claim to the judicial liquidator is NOT a complaint.
In this procedure, the liquidator can represent you as a creditor but not as a victim.
IMPORTANT : the completed and signed standard letter "LETTRE CIRCULAIRE" must reach us BEFORE the 01/15/2021.
--
Pour une administration exemplaire, préservons l'environnement.
N'imprimons que si nécessaire.
Looks like things are moving forward as expected.
121344
Post by: Sacredroach
Got one as well. For just 1€ this has been one hell of a prize fight.
I just wish that the people involved with Sans Detour were actually responsible and morally upstanding individuals.
Confrontation deserved better than this.
Fortunately, I can still enjoy Legends of Signum as its spiritual successor. And yes, I realize the slanted levels of hypocrisy involved there...
1478
Post by: warboss
Putting in the minimum pledge just for the lulz is probably the only wise donation level. I did the same for the failed Rifts board game just so I could comment sarcastically for years to come after the Robotech debacle but it was cancelled before I posted anything.
876
Post by: Kalamadea
Got that email this morning. I've also certainly gotten my $1 entertainment out of it, but it's still sad. I miss confrontation, still have a bunch of metals and plastics and nobody willing to use them against :( Really wish somebody competent had taken it over, first Rackham then CMoN and then Sans Detour, such an awesome game doesn't deserve for such clowns to be "running" it.
I just want a time machine to go back to 2004 when I could hit up my local FLGS multiple nights a week and always have people ready for a game of Confrontation 3.0 or 4th ed 40K, often both.
77922
Post by: Overread
 Sacredroach wrote:
Fortunately, I can still enjoy Legends of Signum as its spiritual successor. And yes, I realize the slanted levels of hypocrisy involved there...
It's probably one of the few recaster situations where I'd also support them now they are no longer recasting and are making their own game and own models. Heck if I wasn't snowed under with other games I'd be getting some Signum models.
Personally I hope something does come of the legal situation surrounding SD. There's incompetence, but at the same time the speed at which they opened sub-companies; loaded them with debt and then snowballed them into administration was too fast. It was one big warning sign not just that something was wrong, but that something either grossly incompetent or nefarious was going on. Suffice to say that someone at the head end of SD and the other firms likely does deserve fines/imprisonment for something going crooked.
The sad thing is it might mean the Confrontation licence gets broken up into bits or falls into the wayside of being bought up by a random firm or just left with the debt collectors to gather dust in a draw. Who knows perhaps Warcradle or Tabletop Combat might take a lot; they've at least major stores backing them for finance; but at the same time both already have their plates full of other projects and Confrontation is a huge rescue job (and I think Warcradle already got their hands burned enough buying the old Spartan Games stuff)
119765
Post by: Limonata
Additional information can be found here
https://www.beastsofwar.com/confrontation/community-notice-french-police-investigating-sans-detour-seeking-information/
If you know someone who had been burned by the KS, there is a form you can fill out to notify the French Police
To date, most of the information regarding this has been solely in French which is why the French Assets Recovery Office has reached out to see if we can share this information to those affected who may not be aware of the ongoing investigation. Almost 10,000 people backed the two projects on the respective platforms and will have already received an email, however late backers using the store or backerkit will not so here is the current information for backers of either;
→ “ Adventures - The Game ” campaign carried out between 02/10/2017 and 03/11/2017 on the ULULE.COM website.
→ “ Confrontation - Classic The legendary skirmish game ” campaign carried out between 04/16/2018 and 05/17/2018 on the KICKSTARTER.COM website.
The Assets Recovery Office have sent a statement detailing in full the procedure to follow that can be read here on ulule.com A Letter with a questionnaire has been sent out along with a complaint form for people to complete if they wish to be included in the legal action. Filing the complaint is free, and if you are a contributor to either project and have not received the letter then you can request a copy by the following.
You can request it by sending an email to avconfplainte@interieur.gouv.for
Indicate in the subject line: REQUEST LC - Last name + First name
This completed letter must be returned to the following email: avconfplainte@interieur.go
Indicate in the subject line: RETOUR LC - Last name + First nameuv.fr
Please note that the emails are not the same
IMPORTANT: The completed and signed standard letter must reach us BEFORE the 01/15/2021.
For those contributors outside France, you can join the above legal action, so if you were unlucky enough to have backed either project I urge you to read the full press release and if you wish to be involved take the time to request and complete the forms.
77271
Post by: .Mikes.
Monolith has been granted the rights for Confrontation.
This is welcome news, but will need a lot of clarification, which will apparently come next week. The big one is much of the worldwide rights to Confrontation, including names and artwork, were purchased by Temple of the West who were planning on releasing their own game, and had already sculpted adn released several (amazing) minis based on Paul Bonner artwork. That was paused a while back due "big thing" mid last year, so it could be Monolith were in talks with them over some of those rights.
On a positive point there's a solid base of fans who conitnue to support Confrontation through their own miniatures and at least one - Cernonus Studios - have said Monolith have reached out to them already. In what way they didn't say, but it's good that Monolith mich be tapping into an existing pool of talent who love the game and the setting.
133616
Post by: Desert Dave
Wonder if they picked up AT-43 as well
77271
Post by: .Mikes.
They did, apparently.
101488
Post by: Johanxp
Great news, Confrontation deserves love.
518
Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Confrontation is dead, long live Confrontation!
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/813525.page
(closing this 7 year old thread)
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