Hulksmash wrote:

 .Mikes. wrote:
If he's credible he'll be able to tell us the names of these companies then.

Why? Honestly all he's done is provide some reasons to be wary and advised against backing this. The red flags are so riddled thru on this project that nothing surprises me about it but he's just pointed out concerns. If Duncan likely has nda's and contacts and why would he risk them for you. What honestly makes you that special?

Not saying there aren't questions which need to be answered with the project, and the same can be said with almost all KSs. However, Duncan has been the most prolific poster here since KS launch. Which is fine, but when he says he has no intention of backing it and almost every post is attacking the project or the creators directly and making claims of fact, he shloulde back it up or it raises questions about his motives.

If he knows companies who SD have approached and be turned down by he should be able to say whom. It's not difficult.

First, you should read better. He said that they haven't moved beyond the initial ask. He didn't say they were denied bubba. Also the project heads have brought this down on themselves and pardon if someone wants to make the risk clear to new potential backers for such a large sum.

Additionally since the KS started it hasn't felt like an attack when he posts. He's literally just supplied good info. I have zero interest in backing once I saw the price but as someone who has supported quite a few KS I'm interested in where this is going and the insane amount of red flags I see. Should I not throw my two cents in when I see them talking about doing these models essentially like cmon did but without anything like cmon's abilities, financials, or track record when they did similar materials?

If someone tells him something off the record, they could get in a lot of trouble if he started giving names, not to mention getting the person fired. I greatly appreciate the info he has given as it enabled me to make an informed decision.

Modo-France Mitarbeiter vor 15 Minuten

Je viens de relire les 10 dernières heures et je suis un peu triste de voir certains comportements et certaines réactions qui ne sont pas très constructives. Je doute que ces réactions sont dignes de gens qui veulent voir revenir Confrontation sur le devant de la scène. Je me trompe peut-être ou ces personnes doivent revoir leur façon de faire et de dire. Je suis là pour modérer mais je préfère la discussion et faire remonter vos informations et questions. Je compte sur vous car il y a malgré tout des gens présents qui donnent des avis très constructifs et ouverts à la discussion et au dialogue! Bonne journée à tous, je vais tacher de répondre au maximum aujourd'hui...
---
I just re-read the last 10 hours and I'm a little sad to see some behaviors and some reactions that are not very constructive. I doubt that these reactions are worthy of people who want to see Confrontation back in the limelight. Maybe I'm wrong, or they have to go back and do their thing. I am here to moderate but I prefer the discussion and to put back your information and questions. I count on you because there are still people present who give very constructive opinions and open to discussion and dialogue! Good day to all, I will try to answer the maximum today ... Hello to all! I'm back this morning if I can help you answer some questions ... I hope the answers on the plastic have cleared the doubts of the majority.

The tone gets harsher over there and as it seems they want people not to ask questions that are quite understandable after debacles like with Robotech and other companies that had few experiences with miniature production and relied to much on the idea that it will somehow turn out good.



Regarding my credibility. I think most here have already realized that I have been working in the industry for years and you would also be surprised how many from the industry are alos on this forum. In the past most of us have done this under our real name, but often we were called imposters if the people did not hear from us what they wanted to hear. So, many of us are here incognito by now. If you send me your email I can send you my Potfolio and you are free to contact those companies listed there and ask them who I am. But I will not release my sources, for once the NDA ask me not to do it, but also because some information is "off the record", but still good to know. I actually did work for Rackham back then and I still am in contact with many of the people from back then. I was amongst other things actually one of the guys responsible for the translation into German of all AT43-material and did also work on Confrontation. If there is one person that wants Confrontation back than it would definitely me. But then it should be done properly and not as amateurish as it is done right now. Right now this is more heading in the direction of Robotech, i.e yes it has reached its goal, but not made enough money to cover it all until the end. No big surprise there. Many KS give a lower sum and hope for a higher end-sum.

If you get your stuff done in China you better have some guy that has a close look at everything that is done at the factory or you will get great minis presented and trash delivered later, as happened with Mongoose back then. SD does not have that experience, you can tell it from most of their answers. Rackham did have that experience and they had one person whose only job was being in China every month and making sure things work out. I think I even have some pictures somewhere showing the Rackham-guy at the factory.

You do need to have more than quotes, since the factories are always booked as hell. I.e. you at least have secured a production slot, but from what they release to us they still seem to be in the quote stage, which is not good when the KS is already running. And they release way to few info how the final product will look. Again I have to point at the Robotech debacle with the less then great miniatures.

 Hulksmash wrote:


Additionally since the KS started it hasn't felt like an attack when he posts.?

You're reading different posts to me, then.

Mike, no bad feelings, I am used to be the Cassandra. I got called worse things when I warned that Mealstrom Games would collapse. My problem seems to be that I always check the numbers and when they do not add up I get a bad feeling. Btw. I warned about Mealstrom more than a year before the collapse? How was I able to do it? Well when e company starts to pay with the money of the latest customers for the orders of earlier customers, than there emerges a pattern, and that pattern ashowed up with Mealstrom.

Interestingly this pattern also showed up with Ludik Bazar or whatever their name is now. Ludik belongs to the same guy that owns SD. And the same patterns that brought Ludik down start to show up with this KS. And it is not only me talking about it. Go to the KS-comments. Really a lot people ask those questions.


Besides I do not ask questions that have not been asked from other companies during KS. Nearly all companies that were not able to reply to them ended up with messed up KS.

Thing is most people don't know the industry side of the industry. They know that "moulds cost a lot" and that plastic ones are typically more expensive than metal or resin etc.... But most have no concept of the actual numbers nor any idea where to even start finding out about that (esp since much of it is real-world stuff rather than online articles).

So most see a few hundred thousand and asume that that must be enough to run things; this is especially the case when they've no further idea of the company behind it and any resources or investments that they might also have.


Sadly KS doesn't require companies to publish all their facts and figures openly; backers do have to take a lot on faith that the numbers balance. So generlaly its not until one follows or backs a failed KS or two that they get a feel for when the KS companies are speaking all bluster with no fact; or when there are tell tale warning signs.

So sometimes warnings from others can fall on deaf ears, or be subject to more hostile replies than one might expect. Esp when people get wound up in an IP that they really like or a franchise that has a legacy behind it.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
And the same patterns that brought Ludik down start to show up with this KS.

I'll just add that, while I'm not in the industry, I have followed way too many KS and, if there's any pattern, it's that creators do *not* change their behavior when a KS funds.

Kevin Siembieda did not change when Robotech funded.
Dionisius did not change when HeroQuest 25th funded.
Jarek did not change when Aliens vs. Predator funded.
Cryptozoic did not change when Ghostbusters II funded.

And, yes, there are plenty of examples of good creators as well.

Taken alone, Duncan's later comments might not be enough to make a decision. But, even before Duncan's later comments, the flags were evident. I'm seeing enough here to say, "Eh... maybe not". Or, rather, "You want me to trust you with *HOW* much money???"

The pull of an IP is strong, but, after a disappointing result with Cryptozoic's The Walking Dead KS, I can easily say that a KS backer needs to divorce himself from the FOMO. Ask yourself if you would back the project if there was no IP involved.

Myself, I will do like I do with most First Created projects. If I don't see enough miniatures production experience, I wait until the creator's next project. From SD's announcement for the Confrontation Boardgame, and that they won't be able to produce plastic miniatures of all the Confrontation metals in this KS, suggests to me that they will offer another Confrontation KS if and once they fulfill this one.

EDIT: I also wish license holders would do a better job vetting a potential licensee, although I'm saying this in general. Or at least to the JK Rowling estate.

EDIT: I'm gonna guess everyone here already knows this, but nic-e posted this on Lead Adventurers: "that seems like a promise made by an earnest but naive creator. It's one thing to say "well we can just scan them and make them in plastic" It's quite another to actually adjust those scans in such a way as to lay them out for casting in a steel mould without MAJOR reworking. The labour involved in just getting the existing miniatures ready for tooling would be insane. Every single figure would need scanning, breaking up, reworking, slicing up again...it makes my head hurt just thinking about it. Not saying it couldn't be done, But not on the budget and time scale they seem to be promising."

Well, it is possible but very costly... in some cases it would be cheaper to completely sculpt those miniatures anew digitally. We are talking here about 6-7 digit sums.

I do not post on the Dakka forum but come often to read the posts.

However, because Confrontation was the game that got me into this hobby, I am following several forums and social media

On the Confrontation Discord Channel, the following is posted and which anyone can go and see:

HaleysRedComet - Yesterday at 4:30 PM
I question a company that has never produced a miniature.

TurboCooler - Yesterday at 4:31 PM
I agree with you. Which is my first red flag. I am happy to leave the pledge and if I miss out, oh well regardless of how badly I wanted this to work

Confrontation Universe - Yesterday at 4:41 PM
@HaleysRedComet SD may have not yet but I do have this experience :wink:

HaleysRedComet - Yesterday at 4:41 PM
Are you working for SD?

Confrontation Universe - Yesterday at 4:58 PM
I do

TurboCooler - Yesterday at 5:01 PM
What projects have you worked on for example?

Confrontation Universe - Yesterday at 5:31 PM
The Alkemy Game which celebrate its 10th anniversary this year.

TurboCooler - Yesterday at 5:38 PM
This game? [Link to BGG that I cannot post because this is my first post but you can easily find]
BoardGameGeek
Alkemy
Publisher's blurb:
Alkemy is a strategy game that takes place in a medieval fantasy world. During your Alkemy games, you will control a group of fighters represented by miniatures and you will manage them in scenario-driven encounters against an ...

Acarvius - Yesterday at 5:43 PM
Yep it must this one (here is their official website: [Link you can find on discord])

Confrontation Universe - Yesterday at 5:44 PM
It is indeed(edited)


Would and of the Industry Insiders know this person or this project?

I've not heard of it ; here is their KS of which they've had two fund

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/909359300/alkemy-blitz-miniatures-game/description

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/909359300/alkemy-blitz-starter-box

Though they are much smaller IP and based on the chatter and funding goals and amounts I'd say the majority of the market hasn't noticed these much. Or just didn't show interest.

 Overread wrote:
I've not heard of it ; here is their KS of which they've had two fund

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/909359300/alkemy-blitz-miniatures-game/description

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/909359300/alkemy-blitz-starter-box

Though they are much smaller IP and based on the chatter and funding goals and amounts I'd say the majority of the market hasn't noticed these much. Or just didn't show interest.

Alkemy is another French game that came out with some really nice sculpts, but they didn’t see the need for English translation being a good quality as being important. A lot of the work was done by the fans, and like confrontation it has gone out of business multiple times with die hard fans buying the rights and brining it back. I bought lots of the jade triad boxes (20+) for my Asian themed horde, but got them on clearance at Miniaturemarket over the past few years. Unfortunately I don’t think the game will ever become vastly popular, but it has some good quality.

Limonata wrote:

Confrontation Universe - Yesterday at 5:31 PM
The Alkemy Game which celebrate its 10th anniversary this year.

Gee, I'm glad they told us this information up front without having backers resort to asking them point blank for this information.

Anyway, here's a Dakka review of the Alkemy miniatures. Quite good, really. : https://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Alkemy%20miniatures

And here's Alkemy's FB page. Tres bien. : https://www.facebook.com/alkemy.the.game

So I guess if anyone's FOMO and on the fence, your only resort is to get onto Discord and ask these sorta questions. :yeesh:

EDIT: If SD can mention they've published RPGs through KS, they should have mentioned they've published miniatures through Alkemy. Maybe there's a reason why they can't tell us on the KS homepage, but telling us would be a step towards establishing their miniatures experience.

Alkemy is good as a game and as miniature line, although it is easy to pick up on something that is not so great about both aspects. However, Alkemy in its current incarnation is primarily resin, although they had their first endeavor with plastic in the second kickstarter - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/909359300/alkemy-blitz-starter-box. Unfortunately, I cannot comment on anything there except "things are delayed". But at least this should provide S-D with some (limited) expertise.

This project can be compared to Wrath of Kings, although this comparison is very slippery. CMON had experience. CMON had skills, tools, contracts and finances. CMON shoot for low common denominator - faction boxes, even unit boxes. And CMON did not go for so many unique sculpts, staying with duplicates and triplicates to boost numbers of miniatures per pledge. And CMON knew how to run kickstarters (and they do that still with great success, just compare their performance to others). WoK results can be seen at lots of places - shameless plug for non-wolfen Goritsi - https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-70290-45470_Goritsi%20Unboxing.html Soft in detail, with mould slippage problems and necessary hot water treatment.



Unfortunately, S-D are not CMON in all these aspects. I am inclined to throw a single penny to S-D just for some unhelpful comments about the game great for its time... but not for anything they may not deliver.

The latest comment from KS

haha I am happy to read the suggestion for the KS add-ons, because I myself suggest many of them! Art book, map of the continent, map of Cadwallon.... so lets see what they comes up with! But this is all great collecting items!!! Keep it up guys, you almost made it to the Mid-Nor clan!!!!

I believe another post said they will never change their attitude, I believe they will march forward regardless of the comments given so many seem to be jumping in without regard.

I do not believe and Art book, nor map nor map of Cadwallon will seriously move the needle.

From the KS comments, a collaborator post about the potential for including add ons given the demand:

I am happy to read the suggestion for the KS add-ons, because I myself suggest many of them! Art book, map of the continent, map of Cadwallon.... so lets see what they comes up with.

Seems weird to have one of your collaborators talking about potential add-ons and then "Lets see when they comes up with".

The person who will be in charge of the miniature production has been answering more questions on Discord.

However, I am not knowledgeable in these things to know the veracity of their claims.

They have stated that they can use all the existing "masters" to create PVC molds and "no scanning is required" nor "rework"

They also confirmed that the main body will be PVC and that weapons and other bits that need to be straight will be ABS.

So, I assume similar to how Mythic Battles was composed.

I guess if this was all true, no idea why we were not simply told this is how it would be and eliminated many questions.

Like I said, I know nothing about figure molding to know how much of this is true.

Sounds reasonable, that's one big thing this kickstarter has going for it, all models complete and ready to go.

They have stated that they can use all the existing "masters" to create PVC molds and "no scanning is required" nor "rework"

I really hope we look incredibly stupid with our doubts two years from now, but until then I don't believe this.

Well I guess they could be planning to use the older pantograph tequnique where you 'trace' a physical probe over the surface of the object and a cutter follows the movement on the mould

but typically if you're doing that you make 3-ups (3x scale) masters to ensure you get all the detail across?

(or maybe Rackham did a bunch of conversion of minis into files that the never used when they went to plastic for Ragnarock?)

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
Sounds reasonable, that's one big thing this kickstarter has going for it, all models complete and ready to go.

But they arent ready to go. The sculpts are designed for another medium, so you're going to need to convert them to 3d, account for shrinkage/detail loss, part them out, etc. There's still a ton of work to do.

The fact that they're answering questions on Discord through a questionable mouthpiece seems to me they want to circumvent what little accountability kickstarter has by not having the comments directly tied to the campaign.

Well, it is possible, but not cheap and needs a lot of expertise

I think they should allow Cadwallon to keep doing their thing, they could completely skip on the miniatures and concentrate on the rules while Cadwallon could keep making what people want and in the quantity they want.

What I wonder... who is going to buy Ressurection when it comes. Cause... forcing all backers to by the big box there will surely be quite some ebaying of that stuff and the market will be saturated to a degree. And I don´t see that many people that have just bought Classic to shell out more for miniatures that actually do replace their minis. And the forms they created for classic are wortheless after the KS since according to them they will only produce Resurrection Minis after the KS.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
What I wonder... who is going to buy Ressurection when it comes. Cause... forcing all backers to by the big box there will surely be quite some ebaying of that stuff and the market will be saturated to a degree. And I don´t see that many people that have just bought Classic to shell out more for miniatures that actually do replace their minis. And the forms they created for classic are wortheless after the KS since according to them they will only produce Resurrection Minis after the KS.

See this is the odd thing to my mind. If they are already going to relaunch next year with brand new minis why make a KS on such a scale like this one? Nostalgia can be strong, but it seems odd to do that whilst chasing a new material and method of production. It also seems odd to take all that investment money to plough into a product line that is limited

This isn't like Privateer Press's Minicrate limited release (small scale limited releases); nor like Reaper Bones (alternate material for cheap production and sales).

That said I'm sure in a year most fans will be ready to buy more models, esp if they are well designed and made. The real question is if in a year the Confrontation company will have the money to finish the KS AND The relaunch

Mid-Nor unlocked.



Next up is the Paladin of Allahan.

Well, if they keep their schedule Ressurection and the delivery of Classic wil more or less overlap to a degree.

And at the moment they hav fallen below 640K


Automatically Appended Next Post:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/996665814/confrontation-classic-the-legendary-skirmish-game/comments

Now the team accuses Frederik Wunderlich of spamming because his request for cards. Problem is... the cards were essential for the old Confro... he`s quite right.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

Well I guess they could be planning to use the older pantograph tequnique where you 'trace' a physical probe over the surface of the object and a cutter follows the movement on the mould

but typically if you're doing that you make 3-ups (3x scale) masters to ensure you get all the detail across?

(or maybe Rackham did a bunch of conversion of minis into files that the never used when they went to plastic for Ragnarock?)

Certainly possible, But it's not ideal.
There's a certain loss of detail in this method, which is why alot of manufacturers went with 3ups for plastic kits and why they switched to digital sculpting.
It's also a bit of a lost art.I know renedra still use it , But most modern manufacturers aren't going to be using a pantograph, and those that do most likely haven't got the same experience of using it on small detailed models like a 28mm master sculpt.

The fact that they say they won't need to adjust the masters for casting in a new material is a bit wobbly.
If they go with two part off the shelf castable pvc, which is closer to a resin, then they can use a mould similar to a resin mould. but given their seeming lack of experience with miniature production, They;d need to outsource this to someone experience to ensure a decent quality level.
If they go with the kind of PVC used by CMoN, then that is going to require either pantographing or scanning and adjusting to remove undercuts/pull areas/reinforce shallow detail ect ect.

The issue i see is that it seems they haven't really pinned one material or method down yet, but they've already set a budget.
If they wanted to go with HIPS then they''re really low balling it (to the point of not even scratching the surface of what it would cost to make the moulds and do all the reworking of the models.)
I do wonder if they simply got an estimate from a producer over seas and said "yeah that's the amount we'll aim for" without factoring in the many extra costs of production?
they have experience with printing, which has a whole different set of challenged and hidden costs , so they could easily not take into account the fact that sometimes a mould will go bad, a master will get destroyed in the process, whole batches of material wil be faulty and ruin a whole set of moulds ect ec.

for the price per mini they're offering I'd imagine they#d want to go for a CMoN style production, which means high yield, high cost moulds. they could do a mould per faction, or simply have one single mould for the entire lot. (could explain the main pledge being all or nothing.) and that'd cut the cost of mould production down, But it could lead to a very shoddy toy soldier style product.

I'm curious to see what they do with it either way, Mostly just out of professional interest as someone who has worked in casting and model production.

The latest reply from Discord

Confrontation Universe
@TurboCooler - Is it possible to elaborate more. Would not the molds for the PVC and ABS need metal molds, are you saying that these can be made via the masters? ---Masters are what's needed to make molds. Metal, plastic or resin. We don't need metal molds to make the plastic ones. - There is no rework that will be required? --- Maybe a bit but not that much. -For example, would not the plastic molds need deeper or bolder lines to compensate for the shrinking of the material which would be much more than metal? --- Not really no. As for Alkemy, the same masters were used to produce Plastic minis, the same in resin and even some metal samples. Not an issue at all.



¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Like I said, making miniatures is not my expertise. I have read a lot on this forum and other miniature forums. I did not realize you could use the same master mold for metal, plastic and resin. I guess, if this was all true, why was SOOO difficult to give backers this information??? Many in the comments had to pull teeth? At this point, I am out because I have no idea who is credible or what to believe anymore. I am not even sure if the question a poster asked and what was answered where talking about the same thing LOL!.

And, because I have forgotten to say so, thank you for those whom have replied. Much appreciated.

I will have have to ask my friends if they have any Alkemy figures so I can examine them.

So I'm assuming the best thing to do at this point is wait and hope until near the end that things will cleared up to a satisfying degree, but not to get too hopeful? Between the lack of clarity and the all-or-nothing nature of the kickstarter, it feels far too easy to lose so much on what could end up being so disappointing.

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
Sounds reasonable, that's one big thing this kickstarter has going for it, all models complete and ready to go.

But they arent ready to go. The sculpts are designed for another medium, so you're going to need to convert them to 3d, account for shrinkage/detail loss, part them out, etc. There's still a ton of work to do.

The fact that they're answering questions on Discord through a questionable mouthpiece seems to me they want to circumvent what little accountability kickstarter has by not having the comments directly tied to the campaign.

Then how come reaper bones could cast their metal miniatures in another medium?

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
Sounds reasonable, that's one big thing this kickstarter has going for it, all models complete and ready to go.

But they arent ready to go. The sculpts are designed for another medium, so you're going to need to convert them to 3d, account for shrinkage/detail loss, part them out, etc. There's still a ton of work to do.

The fact that they're answering questions on Discord through a questionable mouthpiece seems to me they want to circumvent what little accountability kickstarter has by not having the comments directly tied to the campaign.

Then how come reaper bones could cast their metal miniatures in another medium?

The bones I have compared to the metals have a reduced detail to them. It can be done, but you don’t get as nice of a modelasif it was still in metal. The larger models don’t lose as much detail as smaller models do (which is part of the material nature I guess), and is why people say it’s a better medium for larger more organic models.

When you combine these facts with the fact that they have the molds and keep saying that they can do this, the phrase “Put up or shut up” comes to mind. They need to put up pics of a sample or ten of the new models in the PVC compared to the old model size in metal to prove this can be done. Right now they are showing models in metal and saying this is what we are trying to get, but it might look different.

Of course it will lose detail in pvc, but a lot of people saying they must 3d scan their model and fix them to make any molds at all, maybe it aint so.

Thing is Reaper Bones is aimed at people doing DnD games or situations where they want models but where high quality isn't as important as a cheaper price. So the loss of some quality is a trade off in the material when you consider the super cheap cost; and Reaper is open about this. The idea of Bones is to be cheap but still decent quality.

And as said it also works a lot better on bigger models - which of course is great since bigger models are often very highly priced in other materials; so cutting down the price increases sales for Reaper and also lets people use a big dragon for their DnD game or similar without breaking their bank.




Confrontation though is still selling itself on high quality of the models, esp since all their marketing for this has been done with the original metal/resin/whatever models. So right up they are advertising a high grade of model quality for the product

Honestly they need a handful of side by side comparison photos comparing original to the new material and they should have LAUNCHED their KS with those photos. Even just one model made up in the new material.

It is possible to cast directly, but you need a good service provider and there are only a few of them arround.

But what bothers me is that they seem to have a lot of ideas and some quotes but not that much actual experience .

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
Of course it will lose detail in pvc, but a lot of people saying they must 3d scan their model and fix them to make any molds at all, maybe it aint so.

They didn’t say that it was the ONLY way, but that was the way they would have to do it to get quality sculpts. Look at bones compared to HIPS models, Mantic plastics or other manufacturers plastics and you can see quality differences. Most people wanting this game back want it to have quality models not blobs of plastic with lack of real detail.

Limonata wrote:
@TurboCooler - Is it possible to elaborate more. Would not the molds for the PVC and ABS need metal molds, are you saying that these can be made via the masters? ---Masters are what's needed to make molds. Metal, plastic or resin. We don't need metal molds to make the plastic ones. - There is no rework that will be required? --- Maybe a bit but not that much. -For example, would not the plastic molds need deeper or bolder lines to compensate for the shrinking of the material which would be much more than metal? --- Not really no. As for Alkemy, the same masters were used to produce Plastic minis, the same in resin and even some metal samples. Not an issue at all.

How cow. It's like those Ice Age Miniatures guys were resurfacing again.

Thanks, Limonata and TurboCooler!

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
Sounds reasonable, that's one big thing this kickstarter has going for it, all models complete and ready to go.

But they arent ready to go. The sculpts are designed for another medium, so you're going to need to convert them to 3d, account for shrinkage/detail loss, part them out, etc. There's still a ton of work to do.

The fact that they're answering questions on Discord through a questionable mouthpiece seems to me they want to circumvent what little accountability kickstarter has by not having the comments directly tied to the campaign.

Then how come reaper bones could cast their metal miniatures in another medium?

This is a post from Reaperbryan, who helps run their company, from 2013.

"I can believe that a mold *can* cost $250k. But I know that so far we have not had a mold cost over $45,000. I think our cheapest mold was right around $18,000.



There are so many factors that influence mold cost, including the size of the mold. Ours are fit for a 75 ton machine, but 25 ton, 50 ton, 100 ton, 150 ton, 200 ton and larger machines exist, each capable of holding molds only up to a given size. A 250 ton machine can use a 75 ton mold, but it can also hold a much larger mold than a 75 ton is capable of.



***more later."

So that's Reaper's cost for the mold- I'm not sure if that includes paying the artist to convert the mold over, or if it covers the whole process, but it should give you a ballpark figure, as I'd consider Reaper experts on going from metal molds to Bones style plastics. And this is after years and millions of dollars of production work- I'd think Reaper probably does it about as fast and cheap as it is possible to do it.

Would you like to know more?
http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/47575-plastic-injection-molds/

 Overread wrote:
Thing is Reaper Bones is aimed at people doing DnD games or situations where they want models but where high quality isn't as important as a cheaper price. So the loss of some quality is a trade off in the material when you consider the super cheap cost; and Reaper is open about this. The idea of Bones is to be cheap but still decent quality.

Yeah, that. I remember ReaperBryan saying that some of their customers rip off the blister and play the miniature on the table. Bones comes pre-assembled. That should give a big hint who (part of) their target audience are.

Two other differences between Reaper and SD. Reaper's been in the miniatures business for over 25 year, and I believe that was before their Bones KS.

Oh, and they showed PRODUCTION Bones miniatures during their KS campaign. Bones was their fastest growing retail product, but they still didn't have enough revenue to make as many steel molds as they wanted. So they turned to KS.

That's why I'll drop the most money on a KS project on a Reaper project. It's not the IP that's drawing me in, it's the company. I've already learned that, just because a company has an IP you want, doesn't mean you'll get anything else you want.

The fact that they're saying that the same molds can be used for metal and PVC, with no concerns at all about material differences, shrinkage, etc is the reddest of red flags to date.

Quality of miniatures - if any get delivered at all - will be disappointing. Very disappointing.

 Theophony wrote:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
Of course it will lose detail in pvc, but a lot of people saying they must 3d scan their model and fix them to make any molds at all, maybe it aint so.

They didn’t say that it was the ONLY way, but that was the way they would have to do it to get quality sculpts. Look at bones compared to HIPS models, Mantic plastics or other manufacturers plastics and you can see quality differences. Most people wanting this game back want it to have quality models not blobs of plastic with lack of real detail.

When I asked before in the thread "how are molds made to be used with pvc" I get a lengthy description in which step 1 was "1.create digital file."
Sorry for believing people

Well... dang.

The eight-miniature SG was reached, then pledges dropped to $1. 20 EBs left for anyone who's up for the risk!

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:

 Theophony wrote:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
Of course it will lose detail in pvc, but a lot of people saying they must 3d scan their model and fix them to make any molds at all, maybe it aint so.

They didn’t say that it was the ONLY way, but that was the way they would have to do it to get quality sculpts. Look at bones compared to HIPS models, Mantic plastics or other manufacturers plastics and you can see quality differences. Most people wanting this game back want it to have quality models not blobs of plastic with lack of real detail.

When I asked before in the thread "how are molds made to be used with pvc" I get a lengthy description in which step 1 was "1.create digital file."
Sorry for believing people

You asked how PVC molds are made, not what every possible way of making PVC molds are, no? I don't recall anyone claiming this was the only way to do it, simply a possible approach if you'd want good quality miniatures.
Could also make molds out of sand, for that matter, the result just wouldn't be very good.

I don't want to derail the thread any more so please continue with a productive conversation.

Limonata wrote:
The latest reply from Discord

Confrontation Universe
@TurboCooler - Is it possible to elaborate more. Would not the molds for the PVC and ABS need metal molds, are you saying that these can be made via the masters? ---Masters are what's needed to make molds. Metal, plastic or resin. We don't need metal molds to make the plastic ones. - There is no rework that will be required? --- Maybe a bit but not that much. -For example, would not the plastic molds need deeper or bolder lines to compensate for the shrinking of the material which would be much more than metal? --- Not really no. As for Alkemy, the same masters were used to produce Plastic minis, the same in resin and even some metal samples. Not an issue at all.



¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Like I said, making miniatures is not my expertise. I have read a lot on this forum and other miniature forums. I did not realize you could use the same master mold for metal, plastic and resin. I guess, if this was all true, why was SOOO difficult to give backers this information??? Many in the comments had to pull teeth? At this point, I am out because I have no idea who is credible or what to believe anymore. I am not even sure if the question a poster asked and what was answered where talking about the same thing LOL!.

And, because I have forgotten to say so, thank you for those whom have replied. Much appreciated.

I will have have to ask my friends if they have any Alkemy figures so I can examine them.

WHY is this in Discord and not, like... the kickstarter page? Are they shady or just incompetent?

They are both shady and incompetent. The insist they have nothing to do with Ludik, despite sharing a physical address and owner. They deputized people in the KS who tell people they aren't real fans. The set up a Discord and to have some questions answered there and not transfer over to the KS page. They show masters and metals all over the place while they will be casting PVC and insisting they will be identical.

I have no idea why they even like Confrontation at this point. The big reason Rackham was able to sell so many models was because they were so detailed and well done. This project just goes against the whole idea of highly detailed and high quality, which was Confrontation's place in the market. They don't even talk about the actual game played with the minis - which is another red flag.

Agreed!

I wish someone had else had acquired the licence who was realistic about how to 'bring Confrontation back'.

Either with metals or resin.

Smaller scale?

Sure!

But the quality would have been there...

This feels like it will most likely fail (either to deliver, or to deliver quality up to the name/expectation for Confrontation) and it will kill it for good.

HaleysRedComet wrote:
They don't even talk about the actual game played with the minis - which is another red flag.

Wasn't this supposed to be a purely miniature based KS?

 His Master's Voice wrote:

HaleysRedComet wrote:
They don't even talk about the actual game played with the minis - which is another red flag.

Wasn't this supposed to be a purely miniature based KS?

They provide a play mat and terrain. They also said they are providing cards and talk about how the pledge box can be used to play games. Much of what they are saying involves talking about being able to play Confrontation.

Which you can do if you have the rules from any of the previous incarnations of the game.

There's plenty that's wrong with this KS, let's not add things that were never promised to the list of grievances.

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Which you can do if you have the rules from any of the previous incarnations of the game.

There's plenty that's wrong with this KS, let's not add things that were never promised to the list of grievances.

They talk about using these minis for the game right down to how they were selected:

HOW WERE THE 16 SELECTIONS FOR CONFRONTATION CLASSIC MADE?
These starting selections had to fulfill multiple objectives, starting with the fun of discovery and great playability. What we’ve also taken into consideration:
• The best esthetic choices and visual style representative of the faction.
• The variety of gameplay unique to each faction, as each one has advantages which should be used as much as possible during skirmishes.
• The vote of the fans of the Facebook page to the Confrontation Hall of Fame. Their choices have often reinforced our own choices, and in other cases helped us come to a decision.
• The balance of the factions against each other, so that they could face one another in any game combination, meaning exactly 200 duel possibilities! (Approx. 400 points for experienced players).
Finally, each miniature will be playable with the rules for Confrontation Resurrection, coming in 2019!

This is from the FAQ. A header from the FAQ is "When will I receive my game?", another says that they will include a core rulebook.

I think it is perfectly acceptable to call this more than just a minis KS, based on what Sans Detour is putting forward.

It's confrontation classic with the rules from confrontation 3.5 they still have the rules to download on the site.

You supposedly get “quick start” physical rules, but the full rulebook will have to be downloaded.

Giving a few insights : alkemy used to produce miniatures in pvc and abs in china. Quality was very good. I can post a picture if you like, i have some at home. Only annoying stuff was that you had to use super glue.

I assume they will use the same producer - i used to be in contact with the guy a few years ago (half french half chinese based in schentzen if i remember well). It was relatively cheap - i got a quote for a project , Must be somewhere in m’y gmail.

Why do i say these things ? Well because i think people tend to be overly negative on this project - at least, regarding the feasability. Marketing seems poor to me (a bit like sovietic era : one product fits all) but i dont doubt the miniatures will be of good quality.

You don't?

I still do.

And, if it is cheap and good quality, it REALLY would have been a good idea to do this already for a few miniatures - a really small one (goblin?) and a larger one (Troll?) to show how great and achievable it is.

Would've paid them back probably many times over by now via a higher pledge total that would NOT be dropping out of the campaign eventually.

 Lemure wrote:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:

 Theophony wrote:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
Of course it will lose detail in pvc, but a lot of people saying they must 3d scan their model and fix them to make any molds at all, maybe it aint so.

They didn’t say that it was the ONLY way, but that was the way they would have to do it to get quality sculpts. Look at bones compared to HIPS models, Mantic plastics or other manufacturers plastics and you can see quality differences. Most people wanting this game back want it to have quality models not blobs of plastic with lack of real detail.

When I asked before in the thread "how are molds made to be used with pvc" I get a lengthy description in which step 1 was "1.create digital file."
Sorry for believing people

You asked how PVC molds are made, not what every possible way of making PVC molds are, no? I don't recall anyone claiming this was the only way to do it, simply a possible approach if you'd want good quality miniatures.
Could also make molds out of sand, for that matter, the result just wouldn't be very good.

If i may.


PVC is a bit of a catch all term when it comes to casting.
it;s not really a material, more a whole bunch of different materials that share the same basic make up.

Now , with regards to miniature casting there are two main ways you can go.

The first, which is cheapest but also the most labour intensive, is to use a resin PVC mix, this is essnetially a two part plastic that pours and sets like a resin but will cure with the properties of PVC. there are a few different types, some are just resin with PVC suspended in the mix, others are pure two part plastics.
casting this type of pvc uses a standard silicone or rubber mould. as such it's the cheapest way to recreate something in metal into PVC, but it also needs more experience as you have to account for slippage, shrinkage, mould failure, catalyst failure and all the other hazards that come with resin casting. a good mould maker could recast something this way and the PVC cast would have detail loss no different to the levels of loss found in high quality recasting.you also have more wiggle room when it comes to undercuts, as the mould itself can be flexed to remove any parts of the figure that would otherwise be stuck once set.

the second is industrial pvc casting. This is the kind used to make board game pieces and other pvc figures, in which PVC is pumped into a metal mould in an automated process. this has the advantage of negating the risk of slippage/miscasting, of giving uniform casts and a high turnover. But the material is closer to rubber and due to the need to machine the mould , you risk loosing more detail .
Making the mould in this case involves either using a pantograph and a pointing machine to guide a router head , direct from the object being cast, or using a digital file and an automatic router. Either way, you need someone that can break the model up to avoid undercuts and stress points, as there is no room for these things in a solid mould.

Now, can you cast HIPS in the second kind of mould? ehhhh yes.. but you shoudln't. The mould will be graded for certain temperatures and pressures, and the two materials have different qualities, flow rates and curing times that mean the process for casting one will need replacing entirely for another, you can't simply switch between the two.


(I know some people get a little confused at the term undercut. The best way to thing of it is like this. You know those stories you read of parents that let their kids dunk their hands in wet plaster, and then when it sets they can't get it out? that's an undercut. it's a form that due to its shape cannot be removed when enclosed by another material. that's why something made in a flexible mould can't simply be machined into steel, because very often the model will have elements that,when filled into a steel mould, make it impossible to remove.)

Well to have a proxy, here is a video of unpainted alkemy miniatures - it will most likely be the same plastic

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GmKMX0hHKXc

captain tanuki wrote:
Why do i say these things ? Well because i think people tend to be overly negative on this project - at least, regarding the feasability. Marketing seems poor to me (a bit like sovietic era : one product fits all) but i dont doubt the miniatures will be of good quality.

Mysterio wrote:

And, if it is cheap and good quality, it REALLY would have been a good idea to do this already for a few miniatures - a really small one (goblin?) and a larger one (Troll?) to show how great and achievable it is.

Would've paid them back probably many times over by now via a higher pledge total that would NOT be dropping out of the campaign eventually.

Tanuki this is the problem, especially when you then add to it the fact that many in the industry have said that the casting costs for this number of models is far higher than the potential funding goal. Thing is if this company didn't have the Confruntation name it wouldn't have funded by now or if it did it would have funded low as they've not actually got a single model produced to show the actual product quality. They've a lot of old-production models photographed which I think got people in fast, but now that everyone is starting to talk about what will actually be produced there's a huge silence and lack of real evidence that the models to be produced will achieve the quality promised.
If they had one model produced via this method to show before and after then it would have eased all these concerns in a huge way. Which suggests that either they've got no money to invest into producing a test model (which is a MAJOR worry when you consider that they plan to relaunch the game with new casts yet again next year); or that when they did produce one the quality was a lot less than ideal when compared to the original.

It just seems a really poor way to run a KS and when companies dodge questions or don't have answers like this then it sets off alarmbells. Better run better organised KS have failed in the past

And it looks as if the questions and concerns are starting to take their toll:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/996665814/confrontation-classic-the-legendary-skirmish-game/posts/2170369

That´s so stupid....

This just full on facepalm right now, especially from creators with previous kickstarter experience. I think I'm man overboard and swimming to shore on this one.

The last two updates were certainly...interesting.

And certainly designed to stop the bleeding here.

Well, the wording there wreaks of desperation, especially since this should have been available from the start. This is sad now. I'm hoping this doesn't kill Confrontation's model line for good.

Between this and zombicide (no zombies) in space, I am just wondering if the project managers have forgotten/ never learned how to run a successful campaign . Sure they have reached their funding goals, but we all know those were set low right?

Zombicide: Invader will deliver though, and I'd bet the quality of their PVC minis will actually be pretty good.

This one here?

Not so much.

And *IF* this things actually unlocks individual factions'?

Get ready for the funding total to collapse, double quick.

EDIT:

Zeelobby 7 minutes ago
@Stefan it has nothing to do with this. It's the ludicrous way they went about stating this. We're literally pledging more to unlock the ability to pledge less. I have NEVER heard of a KS doing this before, and to be honest, it screams of inexperience. If they estimated that 1.2 is what they'll need to stay profitable and offer the individual factions, then they're going to be sorely disappointed when 1.2 drops to 700K as everyone goes for the smaller options...

Dunno. To me, it looks like the campaign is too focused on marketing/reaching the largest number of people in hope they all take 300+ $ pledges to fund their real minimum amount so that that project can succeed.

They thought using the old visuals was enough. It's clear it isn't and they didn't go too far about the real matter - the actual production miniatures.

Their reactions in the comments is really showing what I was afraid : seeing only the praise comments and ignoring everything else, while encouraging agressive fanboy backers to "attack" the "non believers".

That's the recipe of a Super Dungeon Explore Legends toxic comments section, really.

I have since dumped my pledge.

Confrontation started me in miniature gaming but I had to sell everything off to fund college.

Now I am old and really wanted to get back into Confrontation but it is not going to happen with this company.

I have mentally cast off that idea.

So now, I have a more serious question.

What miniature range in your opinion has great miniatures and also great game play that i can consider researching?

I am interested in the painting as much as the game play. Would you have any suggestion for Fantasy Games that I might research?

Limonata wrote:
I have since dumped my pledge.

Confrontation started me in miniature gaming but I had to sell everything off to fund college.

Now I am old and really wanted to get back into Confrontation but it is not going to happen with this company.

I have mentally cast off that idea.

So now, I have a more serious question.

What miniature range in your opinion has great miniatures and also great game play that i can consider researching?

I am interested in the painting as much as the game play. Would you have any suggestion for Fantasy Games that I might research?

I like Wrath of Kings a lot. Its a fun game with fun miniatures in a style reminiscent of Confrontation.

But also...

You can still play Confrontation. There are multiple version of the rules available, including a version of 3.5 at https://cadwallon.com/ thats currently seeing some play (although its hard to tell how much). That site also offers a lot of Confrontation miniatures (including new stuff). I've ordered from them before and both their metal and resin models were nice. So if you like the models and like the game I'd say find someone to play with and just go for it.

Well, Godslayer comes to my mind if you want to go into the direction of historical fantasy. There is a KS next month which could provide you with good starter deals. The rules are for free and there is also a thread here in the news.
Gameplay reminds of Warmahordes but is way more accessible and the miniature quality is really good (There are some not so great older designs, but they are replacing them currently by better ones).

The problem with Confro will be getting the miniatures and cards again and avoiding the bad recasts.
Wrath of king looks nice, but right now it seems the line will no longer be supported in a way that other games are.

Limonata wrote:
I have since dumped my pledge.

Confrontation started me in miniature gaming but I had to sell everything off to fund college.

Now I am old and really wanted to get back into Confrontation but it is not going to happen with this company.

I have mentally cast off that idea.

So now, I have a more serious question.

What miniature range in your opinion has great miniatures and also great game play that i can consider researching?

I am interested in the painting as much as the game play. Would you have any suggestion for Fantasy Games that I might research?

If you can wait little over a month, this is REALLY worth looking at. There's loads of fluff, faction and play through videos on here... Conquest is out in June and it's crazy good value for money too. Take a look mate : Www.facebook.com/ParaBellumWarGames

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Well, Godslayer comes to my mind if you want to go into the direction of historical fantasy. There is a KS next month which could provide you with good starter deals. The rules are for free and there is also a thread here in the news.
Gameplay reminds of Warmahordes but is way more accessible and the miniature quality is really good (There are some not so great older designs, but they are replacing them currently by better ones).

What's your connection with Godslayer again? Employee? Consultant? Translator for Hire? Something Else?

I'd also suggest (possibly) Conquest too - that game looks amazing and it looks like it will actually exist someday (soon) ad s well as being straight to retail, no unsecured pre-order Kickstarter (I think!).

As for Confrontation, it looks as if confidence here continues to erode:

Limonata wrote:
I have since dumped my pledge.

So now, I have a more serious question.

What miniature range in your opinion has great miniatures and also great game play that i can consider researching?

I am interested in the painting as much as the game play. Would you have any suggestion for Fantasy Games that I might research?

I would recommend Bushido the game (GTC-Studios). That is if you like the aesthetics, since it is soley based around asian fantasy, So not everyones cup of tea.

It is somewhat related to confro, since the creators made it to make up their own loss of their favorite hobbysystem which was confro at that time (their own words).
I haven t played confro myself so i can not comment on this, but i hear from players who played both it is SOMEWHAT similar.

Just watch a demogame of it. Team covenant has a good one concerning the basic rules on YouTube.
But keep in mind the minis chosen for that demo have intentionally no synergy effects between each other to make it easier to take in. So synergyeffects would add to the complexity of the full game.

I think it's getting to the point now that there are so many great skirmish games out there, all you have to do is pick a genre you like and dive in. Most are even cheap enough where you could collect 2 or more factions at the same time and have extra minis for friends to try out the game too, if it's the kind where you only need like 10-15 minis to play a good game.

If you're looking for Fantasy, I thought Godtear was pretty cool, but I had to drop my pledge for financial reasons. Godslayer looks good too. Also, Shadespire from GW is worth looking into .. i never picked that up but keep telling myself I need it, one day I will cave.

He asked for a game that is similar and if you look around Godslayer has a lot in common with it, which is quite understandable because the creators were/are fans of Warmahordes and Confrontation. They even have a sculptor from Rackham hired now.
And it is a game that is already out and not someday in the future (You can even download the rules from The Megalith Games website). Warmahordes e.g. I would not suggest since it is very tournament orientated and I don´t think he is that kind of gamer.
Godtear I am not completly sure of, since the rules are not really finalized, you need to wait how they turn out and with Guildball turning out good and Dark Soul bad... there is no sure way to tell how Godtear will turn out.
Shadespire could become a victim of GW´s habit of killing side-systems after some time.

If he is into Asian, Bushido would be my suggestion.

I have never seen a group of people advocate so hard for an inferior remake of a project before. The comments section is incredible.

HaleysRedComet wrote:
I have never seen a group of people advocate so hard for an inferior remake of a project before. The comments section is incredible.

For some, they may believe that Bad Confrontation is better than No Confrontation, especially if they think this may be the last chance to bring it back. Which also leads to the FOMO, Fear Of Missing Out, that some might have, if they missed out on Confrontation back in the day and see this as their only chance.

http://www.sans-detour.com/actualites/detour-ouvre-capital-plateforme-raizers/

It looks like this is not their first attempt at Confrontation. And what I can find... they canceled that fundraising.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
http://www.sans-detour.com/actualites/detour-ouvre-capital-plateforme-raizers/

It looks like this is not their first attempt at Confrontation. And what I can find... they canceled that fundraising.

I remember when that was posted. I think it was here on Dakka we were having the discussion about them stating they were avoiding kickstarter for the game and looking for traditional investments only. Obviously that didn't go well.

Edit: Yep, here's the start of that discussion https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/717182.page#9210644

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

HaleysRedComet wrote:
I have never seen a group of people advocate so hard for an inferior remake of a project before. The comments section is incredible.

For some, they may believe that Bad Confrontation is better than No Confrontation, especially if they think this may be the last chance to bring it back. Which also leads to the FOMO, Fear Of Missing Out, that some might have, if they missed out on Confrontation back in the day and see this as their only chance.

Some might not be as invested in the internet as others so are not seeing the discussions like here on Dakka - many might have pledged and then not checked back on the status of the campaign and might not until the latter week of the KS (since KS tend to have the most movement of funding in the first and last days of the campaign).

Others might not be as aware of the costs and such so they are putting more trust in the developer being honest.


And some might think that if this fails then the resurrection will fail too; so they are hoping that even if this isn't great it will still fund the return of Confrontation.

Some are also french fanboys who will buy anything with the name "Confrontation" in it and are more than willing to believe it will come back in its Golden Era glory.

Nostalgia and thinking "it's a french business, so it can't fail because of their own decisions!" can do weird things to the human mind.

https://www.facebook.com/EditionsSansDetour/

Their comment section does not really build trust.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
https://www.facebook.com/EditionsSansDetour/

Their comment section does not really build trust.

Most of them complain about lack of communication, poor quality of some products they received, delays and not many answers from SD once they got their money/got funded. From their crowdfunding projects, at least.

So...definitely not trust building then?

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
http://www.sans-detour.com/actualites/detour-ouvre-capital-plateforme-raizers/

It looks like this is not their first attempt at Confrontation. And what I can find... they canceled that fundraising.

No, that was for Resurrection, not classic. It's been said from the beginning that Resurrection would not be KSed, hence private funding. And if you have any proof that this was cancelled please share it.

Man. If was an investor in SD I would be... concerned.

This link to Facebook was posted in the comments

https://www.facebook.com/darkphane/posts/10214066554272756

Stephane Guèbe
April 19 at 8:06am ·

Careful I warn mode big con activated I warn you in advance: it's a big joke this ks confrontation no visual of the quality of the figs, the entrance ticket is ultra too high and extra limited and if you want to go home now you Must Snap 320th, how to say nicely!!! It looks like a bottom lifting without warranty, made by amateurs, with a big risk and given their policy on the ks, it completely blocks the progress of ks So des goals etc..
Watch out!!! I'm probably not gonna make a news buddy but I'm down the c.... es but it's a big joke not smart guys!!!

[For whatever reason Facebook translates this to me if I like it or not, but perhaps others can see the original French]

Things are...not going in the right direction?




Pretty soon, only the most hardcore (French?) will remain?

Will that be enough to keep it from un-funding?!?

I do not believe that you can drop your pledge if doing so takes a project from funded to unfunded. You can do it if it just effects a stretch goal but not the funded total, it was to stop people fake pledging to hit the goal. Could be wrong but that's definitely what it used to be. EDIT: Looks like it's changed, you can cancel whilst it is live regardless now.

Mikes, I said attempt at Confrontation, nowhere did I say classic, so please stop putting things in my mouth.

And since you can´t find the funded campaign on Raizers, it must have been canceled, since funded campaigns are always listed.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Mikes, I said attempt at Confrontation, nowhere did I say classic, so please stop putting things in my mouth.

Be clearer then. Use your words, dude.

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
I do not believe that you can drop your pledge if doing so takes a project from funded to unfunded. You can do it if it just effects a stretch goal but not the funded total, it was to stop people fake pledging to hit the goal. Could be wrong but that's definitely what it used to be. EDIT: Looks like it's changed, you can cancel whilst it is live regardless now.

I think that only applies in the last couple of days of a campaign. Outwith that period, you can un-fund a campaign.

Applies only to the last two days afaik.

Limonata wrote:
This link to Facebook was posted in the comments

https://www.facebook.com/darkphane/posts/10214066554272756

Stephane Guèbe
April 19 at 8:06am ·

Careful I warn mode big con activated I warn you in advance: it's a big joke this ks confrontation no visual of the quality of the figs, the entrance ticket is ultra too high and extra limited and if you want to go home now you Must Snap 320th, how to say nicely!!! It looks like a bottom lifting without warranty, made by amateurs, with a big risk and given their policy on the ks, it completely blocks the progress of ks So des goals etc..
Watch out!!! I'm probably not gonna make a news buddy but I'm down the c.... es but it's a big joke not smart guys!!!

[For whatever reason Facebook translates this to me if I like it or not, but perhaps others can see the original French]

The guy basically says SD are a bunch of amateur, and the lack of any visual makes him worrisome. Also, the high cost of entry makes it hard to reach the stretch goals.
I think the most important thing is that almost everyone who replied to him agrees.The hype for confrontation was real here in France, and many still consider it as one of the best games ever. So the fact that we don't see die-hard fan trying to defend that project is yet another red flag.

Also, one of the replies mentions that the current setup will give you many factions, but none of them will actually contain enough models/pts to play a proper game.
I don't remember much about Confrontation (haven't played in over 15 years), but maybe someone here knows a bit more and can comment on that.

Looks like they FINALLY have a moderator after 8 days who is fluent in English and French. The most comprehendible replies I have seen thus far. They are promising another "Surprise" today but I am wondering if this is just too late at this point.

fresus wrote:
]
. So the fact that we don't see die-hard fan trying to defend that project is yet another red flag.

....

Also, one of the replies mentions that the current setup will give you many factions, but none of them will actually contain enough models/pts to play a proper game.
I don't remember much about Confrontation (haven't played in over 15 years), but maybe someone here knows a bit more and can comment on that.

There are plenty of the old.players still excited about the KS, in the KS comments and on Facebook, they're just not the ones being shared here. I still think the KS will succeed, but it's been out forward that maybe SD should postpone it and come back later with another approach, allowing individual faction add ons but at a higher funding level to cover the cost, and I wouldn't be against that idea. It would also give them chance to gather some example end sculpts.

As for the factions, the French forum I linked a while back broke down the units in each. They vary between 395 and 405 point Rd each, so there's enough for a force, but not always a balanced one.

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
I do not believe that you can drop your pledge if doing so takes a project from funded to unfunded. You can do it if it just effects a stretch goal but not the funded total, it was to stop people fake pledging to hit the goal. Could be wrong but that's definitely what it used to be. EDIT: Looks like it's changed, you can cancel whilst it is live regardless now.

Yes and no?

You cannot drop in the last...48 hours?....if it would cause the campaign to un--fund.

So...pay attention and be careful near the end!

The forces are not really useful. The units came often with several miniatures for a unit and they split many of those up for the KS.
I.e. though you might get a card you can´t play the unit as per 3.x-rules since you are missing the right number of miniatures.

Pointwise you could play it, but the factions vary heavily in points.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/996665814/confrontation-classic-the-legendary-skirmish-game/posts/2172208

So resin is happening? No real news on how this will work just yet.

Yeah, just that it's a collectors add-on... Think I might just bag myself some metals from Cadwallon.com and feth off this kickstarter. Something doesn't feel right about it or SD.... I don't have enough confidence to chip in with it

Not sure what that means or how'd they do it, but when they do it, expect the pledge total to drop even more.

And that's saying something as the last 4 days have seen them lose €50K.

 Davidian wrote:
Yeah, just that it's a collectors add-on... Think I might just bag myself some metals from Cadwallon.com and feth off this kickstarter. Something doesn't feel right about it or SD.... I don't have enough confidence to chip in with it

So, about Cadwallon. I assume because of this project they are no longer selling any of the original Rackham sculpts. Only things they have produced.

Thats a very exciting news. We will finally be able to purchase factions in resin. I wonder if the resin factions will be delivered earlier than the box in pvc.

Well, it looks like someone came out of the wood. Maybe the reason why some people are so much againt this KS is because the make some profit out of selling recasts. Having confrontation reborn would kill all these illegal businesses...

Yes, that looks to be the case.

Maybe when this one goes belly up they will fire up the workshop again?

Who knows?

Which is what can mostly be said about S-D and this one too.

captain tanuki wrote:
Thats a very exciting news. We will finally be able to purchase factions in resin. I wonder if the resin factions will be delivered earlier than the box in pvc.

Well, it looks like someone came out of the wood. Maybe the reason why some people are so much againt this KS is because the make some profit out of selling recasts. Having confrontation reborn would kill all these illegal businesses...

Woah woah, slow down there. They haven't said what they will be offering and at what price for what quality.

There is no reason to blame the recasters... SD made nearly every mistake in the big book of KS-NONONO!

18 month wait for the minis?

Company that's not launched any KS before?

Company that's not worked in PVC before?

That's three big red flags for me, even if the pictures of what they hope to produce, are very very pretty.

Yep. SD should have just offered the collector's resins in the first place. Less ambitious, plenty of free marketing, and a way to gain experience and trust through KS.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The forces are not really useful. The units came often with several miniatures for a unit and they split many of those up for the KS.
I.e. though you might get a card you can´t play the unit as per 3.x-rules since you are missing the right number of miniatures.

The number of miniatures in the blister is an upper limit, not a requirement. There's no problem in the rules with fielding a single Griffin Fusilier, or whatever. It might not be "optimal", but that's a different issue.

Another wolf came out of the wood. Recasting is stealing and people who buy from them are thieves. Thats not an opinion, thats simply the law.


Ian, this company has made crowdfunding before (ulule) and its team has already produced in PVC.

captain tanuki wrote:
Another wolf came out of the wood. Recasting is stealing and people who buy from them are thieves. Thats not an opinion, thats simply the law.


Ian, this company has made crowdfunding before (ulule) and its team has already produced in PVC.

Can you direct me to where I can see their PVC results?

HaleysRedComet wrote:

captain tanuki wrote:
Another wolf came out of the wood. Recasting is stealing and people who buy from them are thieves. Thats not an opinion, thats simply the law.


Ian, this company has made crowdfunding before (ulule) and its team has already produced in PVC.

Can you direct me to where I can see their PVC results?

Last example is Cthulhu Wars : https://fr.ulule.com/cthulhu-wars-vf/

What Captain Tanuki conveniently forgot to say is that the campaign had serious troubles that led with the rewards delivered not completely and a lot of backers crying desperatly to BUY the parts that they didn't receive from others willing to sell their parts.

You can browse their projects here : https://fr.ulule.com/editionssansdetour/, but a lot of comments are in french.

Best luck to those still supporting Sans Détour. Hope they won't cry too much if something really bad happens and they end up with something they didn't pledge for or worse - nothing at all and with their money forever lost.

Another wolf came out of the wood. Recasting is stealing and people who buy from them are thieves. Thats not an opinion, thats simply the law.

I love when people make assertions and pretend that's reality.

So who exactly is this "stealing" from? Rackham - the company that no longer exists? The sculptors who've moved on to other jobs?

18 month wait for the minis?

Company that's not launched any KS before?

Company that's not worked in PVC before?

That's three big red flags for me, even if the pictures of what they hope to produce, are very very pretty.

Pretty much my feelings exactly, I've been burned once on an untested company trying their hand at minis and that's enough for me. If the campaign turns out ok I'll pick up some Dirz later, but from everything I've seen I'm doubting I'll be spending anything in the future.

Thats pretty obvious - they are stealing from the people who own the rights - sans detours in this case.

That´s interesting. As far as I know the rights to the most recent German translations of Confrontation are with former Universal Cards. Did SD get them from them? Or did they revert to Rackham. The last official response from Cyanide was that they did not know who holds the German rights. And according to them the rights situation was quite a minefield. It would be interesting to know whether SD really got all rights back.

According to Stellar Licensing's website they acquired it from Cyanide and then it was licensed to SD.

edit: I mean the confrontation brand not the german translation, just wanted to give the information if anybody forgot it!

No idea how thrust worthy this all is though. Its frustrating to say the least.

I'm confused. The PVC minis in Cthulhu Wars are listed as being done by Ludikbay, which Sans Detour was adamant about being distinct from. Also did they just use the molds from the first run of Cthulhu Wars?

HaleysRedComet wrote:
I'm confused. The PVC minis in Cthulhu Wars are listed as being done by Ludikbay, which Sans Detour was adamant about being distinct from. Also did they just use the molds from the first run of Cthulhu Wars?

Yep, that project was really a messed up one. But I guess the blind defenders don't dig too deep when they're talking about SD's previous experiences in crowdfunding.

In other news, we have resin add on collectors for Confrontation Classic :

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/996665814/confrontation-classic-the-legendary-skirmish-game/posts/2172588

...that aren't part of the Celebration Box pledge and thus invite to the 1$ Pledge. Funds go up, but I suspect only until time backers understand that they usually don't need to put the pledge of the addon right now, they can just stay with 1$ and give the money when the pledge manager opens later...

HaleysRedComet wrote:
I'm confused. The PVC minis in Cthulhu Wars are listed as being done by Ludikbay, which Sans Detour was adamant about being distinct from. Also did they just use the molds from the first run of Cthulhu Wars?

The PVC minis from Cthulhu wars also aren't particularly good IMO. They're basically Bones.

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:

HaleysRedComet wrote:
I'm confused. The PVC minis in Cthulhu Wars are listed as being done by Ludikbay, which Sans Detour was adamant about being distinct from. Also did they just use the molds from the first run of Cthulhu Wars?

The PVC minis from Cthulhu wars also aren't particularly good IMO. They're basically Bones.

Yeah... that's not going to work for Rackham stuff.

Wait. Weren't their Cuthulu wars crowd funding just the french print? All the minis are just what was in the English version done by a completly different company.

 Sarouan wrote:

HaleysRedComet wrote:
I'm confused. The PVC minis in Cthulhu Wars are listed as being done by Ludikbay, which Sans Detour was adamant about being distinct from. Also did they just use the molds from the first run of Cthulhu Wars?

Yep, that project was really a messed up one. But I guess the blind defenders don't dig too deep when they're talking about SD's previous experiences in crowdfunding.

In other news, we have resin add on collectors for Confrontation Classic :

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/996665814/confrontation-classic-the-legendary-skirmish-game/posts/2172588

...that aren't part of the Celebration Box pledge and thus invite to the 1$ Pledge. Funds go up, but I suspect only until time backers understand that they usually don't need to put the pledge of the addon right now, they can just stay with 1$ and give the money when the pledge manager opens later...

So who is doing their resin casting?
Do the molds for them already exist? Are the pictures old or new? Isn't the shown Chimera the Rackham pre-painted one?

This campaign becomes more and more unfocused by the day.

Not recasting per se but Cadwallon.com were producing miniatures from the original moldes. It looks like three have ceased trading their ex-rakham range now as it is all listed as out-of-stock all of a sudden

SD seems to have asked them to stop recasting.

And somehow I do not really know if SD can handle the casting of big resin miniatures...

I think there was a post made somewhere that Cadwallon were going to work with SD officially?

 Overread wrote:
I think there was a post made somewhere that Cadwallon were going to work with SD officially?

I haven't seen where SD has said this. If they did, however, I don't think it is reassuring seeing that Cadwallon largely worked in metal models. If SD had stated this somewhere, I would love to see a link though.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Wait. Weren't their Cuthulu wars crowd funding just the french print? All the minis are just what was in the English version done by a completly different company.

Yeah Sandy Petersons game company "Peterson Games" and the minis were done in China by Panda, i own a copy and imo they are junk(apparently the minis in Cuthulu Wars Onslaught 2 & onwards are better as Panda has improved) like someone else mentioned they are a bit like "Bones" material just slightly more harder but still softer than CMONs PVC.

 Original Timmy wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Wait. Weren't their Cuthulu wars crowd funding just the french print? All the minis are just what was in the English version done by a completly different company.

Yeah Sandy Petersons game company "Peterson Games" and the minis were done in China by Panda, i own a copy and imo they are junk(apparently the minis in Cuthulu Wars Onslaught 2 & onwards are better as Panda has improved) like someone else mentioned they are a bit like "Bones" material just slightly more harder but still softer than CMONs PVC.

That's what I thought yet people are saying that Cuthulu wars shows that SD has experience with PVC miniature production when they weren't involved during the production stages at all.

Panda also produced some VERY disappointing miniatures for the Incursion Kickstarter too. This was some 3 or 4 years ago, so maybe they're a lot better...now?

The 'resin add-ons' seems to have stopped the bleeding - for now.

I know I'm tempted to add on for that Dwarf Golem.

I might still drop down to just that.

 Mysterio wrote:
Panda also produced some VERY disappointing miniatures for the Incursion Kickstarter too. This was some 3 or 4 years ago, so maybe they're a lot better...now?

The 'resin add-ons' seems to have stopped the bleeding - for now.

I know I'm tempted to add on for that Dwarf Golem.

I might still drop down to just that.

The same issues arise with the resin as there were without them - how are they making them and why haven't we seen them do it yet? Why are these all old pictures with one exception? This issue is even a little bit more ridiculous when you compare the cost and time it takes to make a resin mini compared to a PVC one.

 Mysterio wrote:
Panda also produced some VERY disappointing miniatures for the Incursion Kickstarter too. This was some 3 or 4 years ago, so maybe they're a lot better...now?

The 'resin add-ons' seems to have stopped the bleeding - for now.

I know I'm tempted to add on for that Dwarf Golem.

I might still drop down to just that.

You might be better off paying $149.00 to coolminiornot for that same model and getting it now instead of possibly getting it later. Seems they have a few of those add-one in stock still over there.
https://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/miniatures/confrontation-miniatures/confrontation-dwarf-golem-1-1.html
BeliL at least is also on the webstore.

Not a bad idea, actually!

Thanks for the reminder - and the link!

 Monkeysloth wrote:

 Original Timmy wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Wait. Weren't their Cuthulu wars crowd funding just the french print? All the minis are just what was in the English version done by a completly different company.

Yeah Sandy Petersons game company "Peterson Games" and the minis were done in China by Panda, i own a copy and imo they are junk(apparently the minis in Cuthulu Wars Onslaught 2 & onwards are better as Panda has improved) like someone else mentioned they are a bit like "Bones" material just slightly more harder but still softer than CMONs PVC.

That's what I thought yet people are saying that Cuthulu wars shows that SD has experience with PVC miniature production when they weren't involved during the production stages at all.

Not sure if it has been mentioned yet as ive not read every comment here but one of the collaborators Joss was part of the team that made the "Alkemy-Blitz" skirmish game that was KS not too long ago, so someone on board does have "experience" of PVC minis to some degree and they are also selling resin minis for the range on their webstore!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/909359300/alkemy-blitz-starter-box/posts/2131887

*Those tabs on those minis remind me of Privateer Press'es tabs with the copyright "C" and date under each foot, i wonder if its the same company making them!

 Original Timmy wrote:

Not sure if it has been mentioned yet as ive not read every comment here but one of the collaborators Joss was part of the team that made the "Alkemy-Blitz" skirmish game that was KS not too long ago, so someone on board does have "experience" of PVC minis to some degree and they are also selling resin minis for the range on their webstore!

Yes, he has. Though Alkemy totally isn't on the same scale talking about the numbers and the quality of Confrontation miniatures.

I have some of their resin miniatures. They're fine, no more, no less. Their PVC actually hurted the game the first time it was launched, before it sunk and was bought by fans who managed to resurrect it and handle it to a very small (yet living) market. Indeed, it was considered too "cheap" for a miniature skirmish wargame at the time. Completely different from Confrontation's target market, IMHO.

At the time I did the dakka review for the alkemy box (earlier posts), the PVC in that box works because the miniatures are considerably more simplle than Confrontation ones which I also collect. I cannot see any resin or pvc doing justice to the rackham metals. Even the soft metal that rakham used struggled with the extremely thin parts of the figures and would snap. One thing that Rakham did at the time was the aberration prime kit in a strong pvc but the miniature was huge scale wise and as such not as problematic as smaller ones, the details though were all there.

Was it ever stated why they don‘t just do metal models? I‘ve read that they still have the molds and as the original models were metal people would know what they by would get. The Kickstarter is even called „classic“ and for sure fans of old would mostly prefer to get the exact same models as before. It would be much lower risk and they could more easily provide options to only buy one faction instead of this big box. Never understood why gong this PVC route at all or did they expect to sell so much so that they get a bigger profit than with metal?

All I could find was they thought it would make shipping costs prohibitive due to weight.

Grimzim wrote:
Was it ever stated why they don‘t just do metal models? I‘ve read that they still have the molds and as the original models were metal people would know what they by would get. The Kickstarter is even called „classic“ and for sure fans of old would mostly prefer to get the exact same models as before. It would be much lower risk and they could more easily provide options to only buy one faction instead of this big box. Never understood why gong this PVC route at all or did they expect to sell so much so that they get a bigger profit than with metal?

Cost per figure and they have the molds, but probably don’t have the machines to do the actual metal casting.

I suspect the reason is while metal minis do sell on KS they don't appear in (many/any?) multi million pound projects,

and they don't appeal to a lot of the game in a box backers the frequent ks (One of the biggest I can find that was 'all metal' was Nakamura Tower, and they moved to plastic for their second game)

so if your running a project to go huge you probably feel you need plastic for a broad appeal (getting good contract casting done for metal is pretty straightforward as it is with resin, although capacity is more of an issue)

(it also means counterfit/recast stuff is prohibitively expensive, it will still have the potential to hurt you financially if the show up as metal/resin, but at least you don't have to worry about people complaining about stuff related to them online as you can just say 'nothing to do with us, if it's not plastic it's fake')

Let's just debunk something that I keep hearing circulating in this thread and others.

Cadwallon.com was casting with recasts, they did not have the molds when they were casting, and their models were based off of casts from metal models they purchased. The models they were 'missing' were because they didn't have the metal originals, they would search them out and purchase blisters so they could re-cast from the metals. The quality was good in some instances, questionable in others.

Sans-Detour does not have any molds that I am aware of. The molds were originally purchased by LudikBazar when they purchased all of Rackham's old stock. Ludik, during it's financial struggles, used to sell the molds as 'collector pieces,' others were likely destroyed. SD has masters, though how many and which masters they have is in question. I'm a strong believer (and would bet a sum of money that is significant to me) that they do not have all the masters, and I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't have the masters for some of the models they're producing.

The concern about this project, to me, is that with the sale, and gifting of masters, combined with the fact that SD will not commit to sell these models after the kickstarter, means that there is a very real chance that we're actually watching the death of confrontation. The removal of the recastor and the sale/destruction of masters (with molds sold or destroyed as well), the ability to revive this game will be non-existent. That may be a conscious choice by SD, so that the ONLY game in town is theirs, Resurrection.

elarquin wrote:
The removal of the recastor and the sale/destruction of masters (with molds sold or destroyed as well), the ability to revive this game will be non-existent. That may be a conscious choice by SD, so that the ONLY game in town is theirs, Resurrection.

Not saying you're wrong, but we don't know what's going on wit Cadwallon.com. Clearly they and SD have come to some kind of agreement, but their web store is still up in place with the only difference being the amounts of Conf minis being 'out of stock. It's almost as if they're not changing the website as they're just waiting for the KS to finish so they can get back in business.

Anyway, good post, thanks for the info.

I'm in total agreement, that we don't know what Cadwallon has in store and if they'll come back or if they're out.

I will say that I would be shocked if SD wants to leave them up and making models that will likely be more beloved than the resurrection stuff, and produced in the same or higher quality than the stuff SD is producing. We'll see.

The more sound financial decision for SD was really to scan the masters, and send those files to Cadwallon, having the recastor gain legitimacy and pay a continual licensing fee to SD.

Well, Cadwallon is gonna have their own KS 8th of may...Legends of Signum. So they are kinda competing in same niche.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2034410916/319726173?ref=445132&token=ceea4041

This will bleed Conf KS even more I think when it goes up.

Thing is at least Cadwallon has some casting experience and products on the market. For them cutting their illegitimate casting and going legit might be all there is for them. Ergo they were going to drop the Rackham anyway since it would harm their chances of securing further distributors outside of their own website for their new game investment.

We won't see metal at the PVC prices, that's because of a couple of factors:
1.) Production doesn't scale well as it isn't automated and a mold can only do a limited number of models in high quality (still far more then resin). So selling more doesn't really decrease total cost.
2.) Metal prices are very high compared to 15 years ago:
http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/tin/all/
3.) Weight, transport costs, etc.

elarquin wrote:

The concern about this project, to me, is that with the sale, and gifting of masters, combined with the fact that SD will not commit to sell these models after the kickstarter, means that there is a very real chance that we're actually watching the death of confrontation. The removal of the recastor and the sale/destruction of masters (with molds sold or destroyed as well), the ability to revive this game will be non-existent. That may be a conscious choice by SD, so that the ONLY game in town is theirs, Resurrection.

Yep, my biggest fear is that SD and this kickstarter will mean the ultimate end for Rackham and their models. It'd be a horrible way to lose some of the best and lively minis in gaming history.

 Fafnir wrote:


Yep, my biggest fear is that SD and this kickstarter will mean the ultimate end for Rackham and their models. It'd be a horrible way to lose some of the best and lively minis in gaming history.

It was in their time. Now, it's not really true anymore. You can see at the miniatures on the Confrontation Classic Kickstarter that some aged badly.

Mostly it's talking to veterans who knew the whole range and are pretty nostalgic to these days. The newcomers aren't really that much at a loss.

Don't worry, if Sans Détour crashes, it will be because of their horrible management. There will be plenty of room for others, be it recasters or someone serious at last.

Speaking of management, the latest update has an intro to the project team. Not only should this info have been on the KS page on the first day, but (or because of it) there's no mention of miniatures experience.
Joss, who teased (dunno if he actually said) during the Discourse chats he had miniatures experience is only the "game designer and author of the game Alkemy".
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/996665814/confrontation-classic-the-legendary-skirmish-game/posts/2174347

I thought they ran this campaign to create miniatures for the Confrontation boardgame? Well, whatever.

Dropping nearly 67k US in the last 8 days is pretty crazy. I mean, reasonable given the red flags but still crazy.

Regarding miniature quality - I am still painting old Rackham stuff. Pretty much anything they did after 2006 or 2007 absolutely holds up to today's stuff. The edges are sharp, the detail is there, and (personally) I like the art design.

https://i.imgur.com/kaOIGhe.jpg

That orc right there holds up, quality wise, to anything I am painting today from Corvus Belli, Kingdom Death, or Steamforged.

ced1106 wrote:

Joss, who teased (dunno if he actually said) during the Discourse chats he had miniatures experience is only the "game designer and author of the game Alkemy".

And let's not forget that the game Alkemy that he designed made their first company, Kraken Editions, bankrupt. If it wasn't for some very passionate fans who bought back the license, it would have been forgotten in the depths of miniature history.

Which is why I'm not really that reassured he's in this team. It's not a guarantee he knows what he's doing.

There are definitely a fair few Rackham models that haven't aged well, but there's also a lot that are still gorgeous, even by today's standards. Moreover, they really have a unique and iconic aesthetic to them. The industry has caught up, but by and large, they still haven't superseded them.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Dropping nearly 67k US in the last 8 days is pretty crazy. I mean, reasonable given the red flags but still crazy.

It's even worse than that - €70K is approximately $85K.

This one's been trending downward for 8 days except for the slight blip when they announced some rare resin add-ons.

Will it un-fund?

Initially I didn't think so, but now?

Maybe?

It probably 'deserves' to un-fund.

 Mysterio wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Dropping nearly 67k US in the last 8 days is pretty crazy. I mean, reasonable given the red flags but still crazy.

It's even worse than that - €70K is approximately $85K.

This one's been trending downward for 8 days except for the slight blip when they announced some rare resin add-ons.

Will it un-fund?

Initially I didn't think so, but now?

Maybe?

It probably 'deserves' to un-fund.

You have to lose way more than that to "un-fund". I don't think the base of french fanboys will leave their Early Birds in great numbers enough until the end of the campaign for that to happen. However, it's possible SD won't manage to reach their "real" minimum to actually make it possible and cancel the Kickstarter before the end while giving a gak reason like "since we got the attention of so many haters, we believe it's more reasonnable to leave for a while and return when the time is right" or whatever.

Well, according to one of the collaborators, people on forums are spreading lies about them. I am not sure exactly what lies, but they are very defensive about it.

https://i.imgur.com/C9RI8nL.png
https://i.imgur.com/Z3FegwE.png

It would not surprise me too much if they dropped the project due to overwhelming negativity.

HaleysRedComet wrote:
Well, according to one of the collaborators, people on forums are spreading lies about them. I am not sure exactly what lies, but they are very defensive about it.

https://i.imgur.com/C9RI8nL.png
https://i.imgur.com/Z3FegwE.png

It would not surprise me too much if they dropped the project due to overwhelming negativity.

That's....impressive I think.

 Sarouan wrote:

 Mysterio wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Dropping nearly 67k US in the last 8 days is pretty crazy. I mean, reasonable given the red flags but still crazy.

It's even worse than that - €70K is approximately $85K.

This one's been trending downward for 8 days except for the slight blip when they announced some rare resin add-ons.

Will it un-fund?

Initially I didn't think so, but now?

Maybe?

It probably 'deserves' to un-fund.

You have to lose way more than that to "un-fund". I don't think the base of french fanboys will leave their Early Birds in great numbers enough until the end of the campaign for that to happen. However, it's possible SD won't manage to reach their "real" minimum to actually make it possible and cancel the Kickstarter before the end while giving a gak reason like "since we got the attention of so many haters, we believe it's more reasonnable to leave for a while and return when the time is right" or whatever.

Well, they're losing an average of about €10K a day now, so yeah, there isn't enough time left to "UN-FUND" if that stay stable.

And you're right, the hardcore French Fanbase might stick in out until the bitter end - but you're also right in that SD might cancel it if it drops below the 'magic real number to fund' level.

Or, they might pull a version of the "Palladium Maneuver" and let it fund, try half-heartedly to make it, maybe deliver...something less then the full pledge, then claim 'we tried, but the money is gone'.

Who know?

But this one looks less and less likely to deliver what is promised as each day goes by.

They should stop listening to Kevin S and Tony Reidy on how to run successful gaming businesses.

Once the last few days draw nearer I think a larger exodus will occur as people see that extra stretch goals aren’t happening and realize that maybe the herd figured something out they didn’t know.

 Mysterio wrote:

Well, they're losing an average of about €10K a day now, so yeah, there isn't enough time left to "UN-FUND" if that stay stable.

It's actually dropping by €12.5k/day (yesterday and today) and for the next 16 days that's around €200k less, still €365k left. But these things often start as an avalanche, small, but at the end the whole mountain comes down on your head...

It would be best to stop now and start anew later... this way they only burn bridges. Regarding the rumors: Actually they created most of them due to their own inability to answer questions before and during the KS.

I offered to dig up screenshots of the many, many times questions were asked directly on Sans Detour's Facebook posts and were left unanswered. I didn't get a response to that.

HaleysRedComet wrote:
Regarding miniature quality - I am still painting old Rackham stuff. Pretty much anything they did after 2006 or 2007 absolutely holds up to today's stuff. The edges are sharp, the detail is there, and (personally) I like the art design.

https://i.imgur.com/kaOIGhe.jpg

That orc right there holds up, quality wise, to anything I am painting today from Corvus Belli, Kingdom Death, or Steamforged.

To my eyes, that guy just looks like an average miniature from Reaper (but without much of their fiddly crap) but there's nothing that would put it in the tier of Mierce, Kingdom Death, etc. If you told me it came from a CMON boardgame I honestly wouldn't bat an eye (ok, I would because I have that figure, but you get the idea). There's nothing remarkable in terms of sculpt detail or casting.

 Bossk_Hogg wrote:

HaleysRedComet wrote:
Regarding miniature quality - I am still painting old Rackham stuff. Pretty much anything they did after 2006 or 2007 absolutely holds up to today's stuff. The edges are sharp, the detail is there, and (personally) I like the art design.

https://i.imgur.com/kaOIGhe.jpg

That orc right there holds up, quality wise, to anything I am painting today from Corvus Belli, Kingdom Death, or Steamforged.

To my eyes, that guy just looks like an average miniature from Reaper (but without much of their fiddly crap) but there's nothing that would put it in the tier of Mierce, Kingdom Death, etc. If you told me it came from a CMON boardgame I honestly wouldn't bat an eye (ok, I would because I have that figure, but you get the idea). There's nothing remarkable in terms of sculpt detail or casting.

Really? I don't think I've ever seen a Reaper mini that is able to pull off something as clean as the stitching or the rats on the back of the mini as seen here.

https://i.imgur.com/Jg0PogB.jpg

There's also the undercuts on the leather armor bits. The chest and back piece get deeper undercuts than I've seen on pretty much any other minis line. I think this puts it way ahead of anything I've seen in Zombicide.

https://mustcontainminis.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Zombicide_Black_Plague_Unboxing033.jpg

Just looking at this, which is a recent example, I can see for myself that the beard and hair is not as crisp as the Rackham mini.

HaleysRedComet wrote:
Well, according to one of the collaborators, people on forums are spreading lies about them. I am not sure exactly what lies, but they are very defensive about it.

https://i.imgur.com/C9RI8nL.png
https://i.imgur.com/Z3FegwE.png

It would not surprise me too much if they dropped the project due to overwhelming negativity.

I hate it when companies blame the customers for their own failings. This is far from a well run KS.

HaleysRedComet wrote:
I offered to dig up screenshots of the many, many times questions were asked directly on Sans Detour's Facebook posts and were left unanswered. I didn't get a response to that.

Not really surprising since even for their RPG crowdfunding projects, this is a common criticism from their customers/backers when something bad happens: bad/lack of communication.

They're clearly thinking highly of themselves. Even if they pull if off, I'm sure they will make it in a way that it shows it's not their fault but the "haters talking nonsense and spreading lies" about them. Guess what they did wrong in some of their Ulule projects were also fabricated lies that never happened, huh.

HaleysRedComet wrote:
Well, according to one of the collaborators, people on forums are spreading lies about them. I am not sure exactly what lies, but they are very defensive about it.

https://i.imgur.com/C9RI8nL.png
https://i.imgur.com/Z3FegwE.png

It would not surprise me too much if they dropped the project due to overwhelming negativity.

Pure obstinate in the face of many facts and opinions to the contrary. They do not realize not only will they sink this KS but their reputation for future KS. Few will want to pledge for any future projects either.

Instead of taking the tact of saying, "okay, we screwed up, lets start again after we address the concerns" -- nope, it is everyone else's fault but theirs.

Limonata wrote:

HaleysRedComet wrote:
Well, according to one of the collaborators, people on forums are spreading lies about them. I am not sure exactly what lies, but they are very defensive about it.

https://i.imgur.com/C9RI8nL.png
https://i.imgur.com/Z3FegwE.png

It would not surprise me too much if they dropped the project due to overwhelming negativity.

Pure obstinate in the face of many facts and opinions to the contrary. They do not realize not only will they sink this KS but their reputation for future KS. Few will want to pledge for any future projects either.

Instead of taking the tact of saying, "okay, we screwed up, lets start again after we address the concerns" -- nope, it is everyone else's fault but theirs.

The difference is vast between them and say someone like Shieldwolf who has cancelled several kickstarters but the completed ones all deliver so people will still support them pretty easily. Because they were open and honest when they cancelled them.

fwiw, Right now, both US and France have about 670 backers each. That's 1340 of the 2500 backers, or about 1/4 each.

Currently at 187% of their goal, with a KickTraq trend of 415% (?).

I find their introduction of resin a *little* ironic. Backers kept saying how individual factions would drop funding. Then SD introduces expensive resins and backers decide to switch from a $400 pledge to a $160 resin. (Well, that's my guess at what happened, besides the usual exodus.)

More importantly, had SD done resins in the first place, they wouldn't be in this mess. A resin campaign would have gained them KS experience at a less expensive price than plastic miniatures, as well as provide a year-long advertising campaign for their Confrontation: Resurrection line. And, as I understand it, they were going to discontinue the plastic miniatures anyway. And, of course, they could more easily show off production samples in their campaign.

From what one could gather on the internet they thought they would get 2-3 millions with this KS. I do understand from this pov why they were aiming for plastics, but the rest is really amateurish. It is like they went for the least hassle no matter what, i.e. no sorting because of the big box, cheaper than resin and metal to ship, etc.

The problem is, they completely forgot why other KS were that succesful. Also, killing a line while it is still kickstarted is also not a good idea. And Confro Classic will be dead on arrival. They again and again stated that they only want to celebrate the game but then leave it behind and move on to Ressurection. I assume they even saw Classic only as a good way to gather money for Ressurection.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
I assume they even saw Classic only as a good way to gather money for Ressurection.

Thing is that doesn't make sense since, if they wanted this KS to fund Resurrection, why split the resources between two whole product lines in two totally different materials. Why not just have a Resurrection KS purely to fund the one long term product line that they want to turn into a proper game and business.

The only way I can see this KS helping the latter game is if they were going to use this KS to show to private investors, yet even then it still leaves one baffled (since, again, a private investor would be far more interested in a KS funding the actual game to be made rather than a huge side project - esp if they are asking for similar levels of support).


Honestly I think their plans are so obscure and strange and this KS so poorly run that it just leaves a taste in the mouth that they are going to take the money and run. Or take the bulk of it and run leaving behind a very sub-standard and cheapy made product so that the KS is "completed".
Then again I've spent the last few days watching youtube clips of "Hells Kitchen" so it kind of grounds one in remembering that some people really are totally inept in what they do and incapable of criticism/feedback from others. So it could just be incompetence.

Well, to us it does not make sense, but it seems like it made sense to them. Considering how they always repeat how they want to celebrate Classic I assume that there is a lot of blue-eyed thinking about how a Kickstarter really works.
Right now I expect a Robotech-outcome....

What's the latest on the differences? I only went by the 2017 solicitation for investors. From the solicitation, I was guessing that the Classic KS was for making models that would be used in Resurrection? Their current KS at least saves them the trouble of actually having to show a game they've been developing...

www.sans-detour.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Sans-Detour_ouvre_son_capital.pdf

• Resurrection will be the Skirmisher, but there will also be Boardgames in the world of Confrontation. The boardgame miniatures will be compatible to the skirmisher.
• There will be new exclusive models and revisioned old models (the classic line). For the boardgames, it will most likely be plastic, for the classic line Resin. Nothing set yet about the material for Resurrection, the community will be confronted with it.
• Base-size and -shape won't matter for the game. The first designs of the pre-structured bases will be shown soon.
• The rules will be more contemporary and the stats revised. Therefore, it will be either new versions of old models (see the classic line above) or new profiles.

The more time passes, the less I understand about this project. More miniatures is better than less miniatures and keeping Rackham old sculpts "in business" even if their new plastics will not be better than prepaints, is still preferred (by me) outcome of this trainwreck, but... even their resin add-ons now do not look as a safe bet. Unfortunately... I'd like to get one or two. :(

If you're looking for the resin models you can potentially pick them up from CoolMiniOrNot.

https://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/miniatures/confrontation-miniatures

They're more expensive, but they're likely going to be in a higher quality resin and would actually deliver!

elarquin wrote:
If you're looking for the resin models you can potentially pick them up from CoolMiniOrNot.

https://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/miniatures/confrontation-miniatures

They're more expensive, but they're likely going to be in a higher quality resin and would actually deliver!

I picked up the Dirz Wyrm when they were doing their clearance sale. It's pretty good, but "actually deliver" is something that was a real issue with people's orders. At least I have my little dragon though.

HaleysRedComet wrote:

elarquin wrote:
If you're looking for the resin models you can potentially pick them up from CoolMiniOrNot.

https://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/miniatures/confrontation-miniatures

They're more expensive, but they're likely going to be in a higher quality resin and would actually deliver!

I picked up the Dirz Wyrm when they were doing their clearance sale. It's pretty good, but "actually deliver" is something that was a real issue with people's orders. At least I have my little dragon though.

That sale of theirs was insane and then they all took a 3 week holiday before shipping anything .

ced1106 wrote:
I was guessing that the Classic KS was for making models that would be used in Resurrection? Their current KS at least saves them the trouble of actually having to show a game they've been developing...

This is the problem im seeing with that thinking is they have indicated several times that the big box wont be on sale in the way it is on KS as its not viable from a customers point of view, so to get around that the minis would need to be sold separately either as individuals or as factions and this is where im seeing lots of problems...

1)They said they wont sell factions in KS as the molds would need re-arranging into factions rather than their initial set up of "mix and match" that would make good use of the mold space and in their opinion the result of doing the molds in factions is that some will not be that popular and they would be left with a lot of stock left over from the "min manufacturing number" needed to make the order.
2)To make factions available separately they need to raise 1.25M Euros, which i personally think is a joke(and possibly the real funding goal needed for the basic box) considering all 178 basic box minis would have been molded at 300K Euros, it doesnt take 950K Euros to re-arrange the minis in the molds, yes i understand some of that 950K would be took for logistics etc.
3)If the KS ends funded @ what it is now and Sans Detour decides to sell faction boxes, in my opinion they will struggle as there will be a gak ton of factions and separate minis on the 2nd hand market from re-sellers or people off-loading the stuff they dont want, there could be anywhere of 2000+(#backers) copies of each mini/faction and most likely selling for less than what Sans Detour can, therefore sinking their chances of a retail market, they would be better off selling factions in the KS, that way they can have some control over the 2nd hand market ie it wont be flooded with unwanted factions backers didnt want.

Now this brings me along to the funding level and the amount of minis that need working on and producing, from what i hear from a few sources is the pvc minis will cost between 2-5K Euros each to make a mold for, with the basic box of 178 minis at 2K a mold thats works out at 356K Euros 56K above the funding target and im pretty sure that price doesnt include the digital scanning and tweeking of the sculpts, then you have to pay for production of the minis too, like it has been said that San Detour was expecting it hit the heights of a multi-million Euro campaign and more than likely had a low goal to hit funding extremely quickly to use that as a good piece of PR helping along with the reputation of Confrontation it to hit that target but its not worked out like that.

The problem is that they have told us so many things what they want to do, that noone really knows what exactly they are going to do. And what I fear is that they never realized that the flooding of the market with not wanted Classic minis might kill Ressurection instantly...

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The problem is that they have told us so many things what they want to do, that noone really knows what exactly they are going to do. And what I fear is that they never realized that the flooding of the market with not wanted Classic minis might kill Ressurection instantly...

Assuming that they can even afford to do both.

If the KS makes it to market and has poor quality models then that will seriously hinder Resurrection not just because people won't trust them to make good models; but because they'll have seriously annoyed their most loyal core market. The KS backers are the kind of people who are far more likely to push Resurrection in their local clubs; so if they get put out by bad models and a bad KS then they will most certainly not be back nor help push the new game when it comes out.


So they could find themselves in the future with a solid product line and a market which hates them. That will take years to overcome and put their launch back by years in the power it should have.




Of course the KS could work really well; the plastic could be high grade and really great and the backers get their models on time and with few errors/problems. I'm sure every backer and even those of us not backing want to see Confruntation return - but - right now its not looking hopeful (esp as they've still not even shown a single pre-production model? Nor even scanned 3D model)

 Overread wrote:

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:


Of course the KS could work really well; the plastic could be high grade and really great and the backers get their models on time and with few errors/problems. I'm sure every backer and even those of us not backing want to see Confruntation return - but - right now its not looking hopeful (esp as they've still not even shown a single pre-production model? Nor even scanned 3D model)

I do not believe they EVER intended to show anything during the campaign. It is 18 months long to receive the pledge. They are starting at zero and wanted all the money up front before they even started any work and once they had your money, the feedback does not matter as you can see in some of their RPG projects. The question of showing samples was asked many many times but the answer was either a deflection or was not ever answered. They have nothing nor planned to give you anything to see upfront. Give us money, see you in 18 months. You will love it because after all, you have no choice. Everything was "give me all your money, and trust us" This was a pure and simple money grab to fund the work on Resurrection. Since the Resurrection KS was supposed to start before they even delivered Classic they had no intention do well by Classic. Since they will be killing Confrontation and they are not even supporting the square bases in the new game (their own words) it was take the money and run while I show you this new shiny thing.

They wanted to do zero up front work. Invest zero money. They kept saying "this is what other KS do, do not be fooled"

If they do not cancel and do try to deliver, it will be a disaster. IMHO, they cannot even bring Resurrection to KS. Their reputation is shot. The best they can do is license it to someone who cares and will do the work that should have been done and just stay out of it and collect the license fees.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One other item, anyone notice that the Confrontation project has been #1 on http://www.kicktraq.com/hotlist/games/tabletop%20games/ despite the fact that they have kept loosing backers and money?

Seems fishy to me because successful projects drop at some point and then pick up steam in the last two weeks. Even the Monolith Batman project had dropped out of the Top 10 for several days and then went back up to #1.

Wondering if on top of all their other BS they are gaming kicktraq.com to goose the stats.

Limonata wrote:
IMHO, they cannot even bring Resurrection to KS.

Once more for people at the back - Resurrection was never going to be a KS.

Does Kicktraq not rank games partially by the amount of talk about them? And talk is what they definitly generated .

Also model games tend to fund pretty high anyway by KS standards; they are one of the more expensive products that tends to make it on there so it might well rank high just because a lot of other projects can fund and deliver with much lower costs.


Mikes I think the point is that if SD in a years time or less need money then they won't be able to come to KS to fund Resurrection as an option. Basically this KS has closed down that option until this KS is delivered and even then only if it delivers well.
Otherwise the only other source of investment is private investors and their own pockets. Which are both worrying as they are showing through this campaign that they don't appear to have much in the way of either (if they did they'd have the funds to have made at least one viable sample for the KS to show off).


So it leaves everyone wondering where they will get the money for Resurrection.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Does Kicktraq not rank games partially by the amount of talk about them? And talk is what they definitly generated .

One of the metrics is click through. All you have to do is go to the daily metric for "Zombicide: Invader" and you will see that for any given metric it should be above Confrontation but instead it is #2. I have been part of other KS where backers and sometimes even the creator have asked people to click through Kicktraq to goose it up. Given how consistent it has been on top a simple program in a loop to goose the metric to keep it on top is not out of the question.

Confrontation is coming back, thanks to you! -- Confrontation revient grâce à vous!

Posted by Joss (Collaborator)
Confrontation Classic is an incredible adventure, thanks to you. We are now halfway through the Kickstarter campaign and we want to sincerely thank all of you who support us and grand us their trust:

All the backers who rekindle their passion for this incredible game and indulge themselves with a load of miniatures that will be compatible with our upcoming projects, - The professionals in over 20 countries who believe in the success of our range and contacted us in order to distribute Confrontation,
The official Confrontation moderators who keep listening to you (Sylvain, Damien, Sylvano et Boris),
All the passionate players who take the time to defend their game and this project in all kindness when people are curious and ask questions,
The international communities supporting the project, most particularly the Fédé (France : http://www.conf-federation.fr/index.php) and Conf'Evo (Italy : https://www.facebook.com/confrontationevo/) whose fervor and energy we can only salute, when it comes to support Confrontations grand come-back!
And very soon:
We took your feedbacks into account and are currently revising the stretch-goals in order to include more emblematic miniatures!

Seems like they'll need to do a bit more than that:

Limonata wrote:

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Does Kicktraq not rank games partially by the amount of talk about them? And talk is what they definitly generated .

One of the metrics is click through. All you have to do is go to the daily metric for "Zombicide: Invader" and you will see that for any given metric it should be above Confrontation but instead it is #2. I have been part of other KS where backers and sometimes even the creator have asked people to click through Kicktraq to goose it up. Given how consistent it has been on top a simple program in a loop to goose the metric to keep it on top is not out of the question.

Thats what ive been thinking, i actually woke up today and see they was #1 on the chart again and ive decided to contact Kicktraq to ask them whats up and for them to explain why its been above a lot of very successful projects as it certainly is fishy they are still there, i think the highest they went was #5 and next day i checked they were back at #1 i literally laughed out loud for real

Also has anyone seen these comments asking for better SGs that were mentioned in the last update? the only comments ive seen in the last 7-10 days are asking if the SG will be re-locked, there was people asking for better SG but that was 10 days ago before the exodus started, which i think we intensify with each day and imo it will be very lucky to fund,

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/996665814/confrontation-classic-the-legendary-skirmish-game/posts/2178005

So they decided to add more stuff for free in hope people will just say, look, free minis, pledge!!!!!

This seems less and less viable. Giving more while at same time loosing backers.

Latest update:

The Celebration Pledge has become a unique item and an exclusive Kickstarter:

ALL the Stretch Goals have been unlocked up to 1 249 999 €. That's a bonus of 86 miniatures!
This include the Stretch Goal for the map of Aarklash.
The Celebration Pledge is limited to 4 000 copies worldwide (including 2 000 Early Birds).

Last but not least:
it will never be available in stores.
It will never be available as a Late Pledge.
And there will never be another Confrontation Classic Kickstarter campaign.
The 1 250 000 € Stretch Goal remains valid and will liberate all factions.

They now have a retailer pledge which is a joke. They also have changed the non-early bird pledge to limit to 2000 -- another joke to pump up the FOMO.

I find it interesting as I have been on other KS and the creators have said they are not allowed per KS to change existing pledge levels although they can add new ones.
These guys seem to have no problem changing an existing pledge level.

The funny thing is, with each update they loose more backers. I watched as they lost 2K with their latest update.

They seem to be successful only in their own minds

You can do what you want to existing pledge levels, it's not a rule of KS as a function of how the site works

so what you can't do is change the text in the bit you click on to pledge so lots of people miss the changes, so the extras you're adding as inducements don't show, or the change in delivery date etc

(but overall it's probably a good thing or scammers could promise the moon and then change the offering at the last minute)

That sounds like one of those old-school marketing letters or late-night TV ads.

"Buy now because you won't get another chance!"

"Order before the deadline and get DOUBLE the product!"


On a project where people see genuine red flags, this just adds leverage to those questioning it's feasibility.

And already another update. The celebration pledge in resin for 990€.

Now that they need to make resin molds, they finally could sell single factions.

Next update in 30 minutes?

This seems beyond desperate to save a failing campaign.

Resin is Confrontations Holy Grail.
Get your hands on the 178 unique miniatures from the Celebration Pledge in resin at the price of 990 €.
This pledge includes the 2 Battle Sets, but none of the Stretch Goals.
This prestigious edition will not be available as a Late Pledge.

They keep believing people want those Battle Sets.

The have 2 backers for it, so some people believe they will actually get delivered at a level of quality that $1,100 they are asking for the pledge.

How long does it take to make a resin cast of a mini?

The problem is the tear and wear and it takes quite longer than PVC.

Either I just had some LSD or SD is really thinking they can turn around that sinking ship with such a stupid move. That does not look promising for every other decision regarding this KS.

The newest ridiculous Red Flag is that they've unlocked ALL stretch goals up to 1.2M Euros, even though they're only at 500K Euros, and even the flawed 'trending' prediction has them not reaching 1M Euros.

But somehow this news has brought in $10K Euros today - probably because of the individual add-ons?

Which will eventually lead to the total dropping even more?

"Confused" doesn't begin to describe their KS style.

The only way they could get this KS to run now is if they've already got the money to actually do everything for the KS from another funding source and are trying to use the KS basically as a marketing pre-order system to generate hype.

Which is totally bonkers when this is supposed to be a one-print line of products. If they had that kind of money why would they sink even more of that money into a failing KS just to keep it going



Honestly right now it just sounds more and more like a scam. Not a single clear answer; no product photos that aren't from old products already produced years ago; and a continual series of updates releasing more product despite them actually having less and less money.

HaleysRedComet wrote:
How long does it take to make a resin cast of a mini?

It takes some hrs as you need to mix and pour resin into a mold, then put the mold into a vaculm chamber to get the air bubbles out, then you need to wait the the mini to go hard or hard enough to remove from mold and then left out in the air for 24hrs to cure i believe, i havent casted anything myself but i know a lot of casters in the UK and spoke with them about it all a few times, like it was mentioned by another user here, PVC is done really quickly as the machine pushes the 2 mold halves together then melted plastic balls or pellets around 2/3mm are injected into it, mold stays together for a few seconds enough for the plastic to set and then the molds separate and the minis fall out, job done.

 Original Timmy wrote:

HaleysRedComet wrote:
How long does it take to make a resin cast of a mini?

It takes some hrs as you need to mix and pour resin into a mold, then put the mold into a vaculm chamber to get the air bubbles out, then you need to wait the the mini to go hard or hard enough to remove from mold and then left out in the air for 24hrs to cure i believe, i havent casted anything myself but i know a lot of casters in the UK and spoke with them about it all a few times, like it was mentioned by another user here, PVC is done really quickly as the machine pushes the 2 mold halves together then melted plastic balls or pellets around 2/3mm are injected into it, mold stays together for a few seconds enough for the plastic to set and then the molds separate and the minis fall out, job done.

Cool. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't the crazy one for expecting that it could have been done sometime in the last year since they were planning for this Kickstarter.

 Mysterio wrote:
The newest ridiculous Red Flag is that they've unlocked ALL stretch goals up to 1.2M Euros, even though they're only at 500K Euros, and even the flawed 'trending' prediction has them not reaching 1M Euros.

But somehow this news has brought in $10K Euros today - probably because of the individual add-ons?

Which will eventually lead to the total dropping even more?

"Confused" doesn't begin to describe their KS style.

Yes its very worrying and shows they are in desperation mode, its a massive red flag but i cant believe all the praise they are getting in the update comments people are not thinking straight, it seems Confrontation fans want it back so bad they are blinkered to all the red flags that have popped up since day 1, as for the +10K thats those blinkered fans changing pledge to resin or adding the new add-ons, remember it only takes 10 to upgrade to a full resin pledge to get 10K (wrote before checking campaign page, see edit)

That was the finial nail in the coffin for me, there is no way they can produce 300+ minis from base box at their current funding and they way they have reacted to come to these updates shows a desparate company who will do anything to get this money rather than cancel, regroup, restructure and relaunch like any professional company would, it makes me wonder if some of the money will go to saving Lukidbazar as a few times the mods have mentioned a time limit that needs following so they cant cancel and relaunch

*edit just checked the campaign and only 2x 999 pledges have been taken so far

Man there cant be many willing to risk that much money on a kickstarter like the resin pledge.

Since I am a sucker for confrontation minis I actually could buy that if it was already completed and in a store and preferably divided maybe into 10 chunks 100 euro each spread out over a couple of months.

But to risk that much money on a kickstarter? No way I could do that. And that's even before all the red flags.

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
Man there cant be many willing to risk that much money on a kickstarter like the resin pledge.

Since I am a sucker for confrontation minis I actually could buy that if it was already completed and in a store and preferably divided maybe into 10 chunks 100 euro each spread out over a couple of months.

But to risk that much money on a kickstarter? No way I could do that. And that's even before all the red flags.

If it was a smooth running campaign and it was offered from the start i think it would have a fair few backers, just look at Sandy Petersons games and KD:M for high value pledges and they get quite a few backers

Aiming for "High Quality Collector Editions" is indeed the spirit of Rackham miniatures - at least in the mind of many fans of this line. It's like video games with microtransactions - you just need to catch the smaller number of "whale customers" ready to throw insane amounts of money and it would be good enough for the funding.

They should have done that from the start, pretty sure it would have been much more successful.

It's clear they're focusing on the core of fanatic base for Confrontation miniatures. That's why they're encensing them so much and why the tone of the Bounty Hunters program was set like this. They don't want people who think rationally, only those with blind faith that it will magically succeed.

Still think it was managed poorly so far. Since I don't think the number of backers will really get that high, the only answer is indeed to boost the highest pledges to gather a large amount in the end until the end of the campaign.

They've locked themselves into a weird position of only targeting the most fanatic Confrontation fans while not offering them anything they should really want to buy. If you played in the past or currently you are mostly locked into getting too much product that is (probably) worse quality than what you are used to. If you've never played - this forces you to spend an unreasonable amount of money for a full buy in of a game you've never played and this project doesn't explain. I know I might be negative, but I can't see their angle past trying to push a ton of minis for a large price while burying the game as it was entirely.

I love how they assume that those of us pointing out red flags are...

a) Total haters who just want the campaign to fail

b) Likely to start suddenly being nice if accused of being total haters

c) Never ever likely to back the campaign

For me a red flag is "Stop, assess, then potentially proceed with caution." It doesn't necessarily mean I won't back. Though by this point...

Exactly. It's like some weird tactic we're used to seeing only in politics (...shudder...).

A red flag risk of $50 is one thing, but $400? No thanks. And the way they have acted? Not even a $1.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
I love how they assume that those of us pointing out red flags are...

a) Total haters who just want the campaign to fail

b) Likely to start suddenly being nice if accused of being total haters

c) Never ever likely to back the campaign

For me a red flag is "Stop, assess, then potentially proceed with caution." It doesn't necessarily mean I won't back. Though by this point...

You forget d) Conspiracy made by the guys from Legends of Signum whose Kickstarter will start soon, to kill concurrence/for revenge to force their site Cadwallon to stop Confrontation recasts. it's a new one, but yeah, there seem to be rumors about that kind of stuff around.

What conspiracy?

From my perspective this Kickstarter seems to have even more glaring issues regarding production than Robotech RPG Tactics, Defiance Hardsuits, and gRifts the board game combined. This one looks custom built to add to the bonfire of Kickstarters that failed and backers have no recourse other than to start trying to form a lawsuit. I guess this will go on until everyone on the internet has their one Kickstarter that burned them so hard they refuse to use the platform. So I guess they'll be about 2,500 more people soured after five years caused San Detour is running pretty silent during their own campaign I can only imagine how deep and silent they'll run after the money is in the bank.

HaleysRedComet wrote:
What conspiracy?

Some people supporting Sans Detour began spreading that story most of the people being negative are in fact "supporting" the people behind Legends of Signum/Cadwallon website as if they were "hired" to do a campaign with the purpose to sink/hinder SD's Confrontation project.

The few I saw so far were in french : https://www.trictrac.net/forum/sujet/ks-avril-2018-confrontation-classic?page=9&limit=32#post-655eb83228d64494ec7f5b16a393cae64241 et http://confrontation.vraiforum.com/t3912-%5BKS%5D-Confrontation-Classic-%28avril-2018%29-.htm?start=1620

 Sarouan wrote:

HaleysRedComet wrote:
What conspiracy?

Some people supporting Sans Detour began spreading that story most of the people being negative are in fact "supporting" the people behind Legends of Signum/Cadwallon website as if they were "hired" to do a campaign with the purpose to sink/hinder SD's Confrontation project.

The few I saw so far were in french : https://www.trictrac.net/forum/sujet/ks-avril-2018-confrontation-classic?page=9&limit=32#post-655eb83228d64494ec7f5b16a393cae64241 et http://confrontation.vraiforum.com/t3912-%5BKS%5D-Confrontation-Classic-%28avril-2018%29-.htm?start=1620

I personally find it a little hard to believe that the negativity about the Confrontation KS is being significantly fueled by the Cadwallon crew. I have seen this brought up, but I know that I am not involved with them nor are any of the people I know who have been voicing concerns and criticism about the project.

I did not even know that Cadwallon existed.

And still I had a bad feeling about this one even before it started as soon as I did some research. Actually you should always research before every Kickstarter, risk of getting burned is lowered quite a lot that way.

Working in the business you just know from experience what works and what not. And here already from the first announcement things did not really add up.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/996665814/confrontation-classic-the-legendary-skirmish-game/posts/2180551

New update with a redesigned card and gameplay demo PDF. Interested to hear people's thoughts on the card design.

The card is an old design from Confro 4. There were several variants and that was one of them.

No, confrontation 4 cards looked like that : https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/232754329827_/RACKHAM-CONFRONTATION-Scorpion-Syhar-Sighthounds-Unit-Box-Game.jpg
4 stat on the left and lines on the bottom with the weapon profiles.
What SD as shown is something new. It's the layout of a conf 3 card updated with the graphical chart of conf 4.

It definitely looks inspired by them. I have asked a few times about how this new format will work with abilities that effect a model's equipment. I know the Master of Carnage, which is included in the pledge, has an ability that does different things to models with different equipment. Maybe Sans Detour will provide an answer.

The ones that got finally released look like in your link, but I also saw different designs during talks with Rackham. They were probably trying several designs.

Can anyone educate me what is the difference between Confrontation 3 and Confrontation Evo? Which one is the format for the future?

Confrontation evo is the fan version that evolved from confrontation 3/3.5 made by the italian community (and conf'fédé is the fan version made by the french community).

Sans-Détours want to publish a new game, confrontation resurrection, when they will be delivering the minis from this KS.

wildger wrote:
Can anyone educate me what is the difference between Confrontation 3 and Confrontation Evo? Which one is the format for the future?

Neither is the format for the future.

Confrontation Evo is a fan made update to the Confrontation 3.0 rules set.

Sans Detour is planning on running a kickstarter sometime next year for a new version of the game called "Confrontation Resurrection." This new version is not available through their current kickstarter.

If Confrontation has a future with Sans Detour, then Con Resur will be the standard. If they fail to deliver their kickstarter, then Evo will be the way that fans continue to play.


Sans Detour have made it clear that they wish to have two kickstarters (this one, for Confrontation "Classic" which will simply republish the old rulebook, and a new one that they'll be running sometime next year). It does seem odd that they're announcing a new edition of the game, then run a kickstarter for the old one, but it is what it is.

I haven't seen the words "Kickstarter" or "Crowdfunding" mentioned for Confrontation Resurrection. Can someone show me where SD said this is how they plan to launch it?

Not that I don't think that was their plan, but I searched the other day and wasn't able to find where they said that.

I can't find it but on their Facebook page they refereed to Confrontation Classic as "the first kickstarter" and when I asked if that meant there would be a second and what that would be, knowing that they originally said resurrection was not going to KS... No reply. They were quite chatty before that.

The original Confrontation 3.5 already has a number of imbalance issues and has proved detrimental to the game. I don't quite understand why they want to promote it again and then to have it changed to the new unknown Confrontation Resurrection while ignoring the much well re-fined Confrontation Evo.

HaleysRedComet wrote:
I haven't seen the words "Kickstarter" or "Crowdfunding" mentioned for Confrontation Resurrection. Can someone show me where SD said this is how they plan to launch it?

Not that I don't think that was their plan, but I searched the other day and wasn't able to find where they said that.

They've stated a few times now that Resurrection won't be a KS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wildger wrote:
The original Confrontation 3.5 already has a number of imbalance issues and has proved detrimental to the game. I don't quite understand why they want to promote it again and then to have it changed to the new unknown Confrontation Resurrection while ignoring the much well re-fined Confrontation Evo.

The guys who created EVO did go in and speak to San Detour last year, but they didn't go into what was discussed, so who knows, maybe they have.

 .Mikes. wrote:

They've stated a few times now that Resurrection won't be a KS.

They may have said that assuming they will get a couple of million €€ for this KS.....

This was quietly dropped into their FAQ:

What is your process for plastic production?
- We are working from the original sculpts from Rackham. 3D scanning is optional and we will only use this process for some pieces that are really fragile (The Red Lioness for example)
- But basicaly, thanks to amazing sculpts done back then, we are able to engineer molds directly for the plastic production.
- Some minor modifications might be necessary depending on the miniatures. These modifications can be done directly by the manufacturer (no sculpting is needed at this point)
- Then the molds are manufactured and miniatures cast.
- They are now ready to be packed and shipped !

That uh. Yeah...

There isn't anything really new in that statment that we don't otherwise know.

Unless you mean the last bulletpoint which isn't a statement of their current situation but part of the bulletpoint time-line - ergo once they've done all the previous points then the models will be "ready to be packed and shipped".

It's not stating that they've already done all those steps.

That statement verifies they have no intention of scanning the models.

It verifies that they're not interested in modifying their models in a way to ensure they're consistent with the new materials the models are shifting into (PVC and undercuts argument).

It verifies that they're willing to run the risk of truly damaging a master, and combining that information with the sale of the masters and distribution through the golden ticket scheme, that they're essentially salting the earth.

None of that is SURPRISING. What's interesting is that it's posted now, and truly shows how little they understand.

The last bullte simply says that they have the stuff ready for shipping, but thats really not news. I can have everything ready for shipping.

More interesting is that Stellar removed the website part about who they are.
https://www.stellarlicencing.com/index.php/en/?Itemid=147

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:

More interesting is that Stellar removed the website part about who they are.
https://www.stellarlicencing.com/index.php/en/?Itemid=147

Mh. Another shady move, it seems. Which will only lead to more questions, as usual.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The last bullte simply says that they have the stuff ready for shipping, but thats really not news. I can have everything ready for shipping.

More interesting is that Stellar removed the website part about who they are.
https://www.stellarlicencing.com/index.php/en/?Itemid=147

No legal information whatsoever actually.
Anyone wanna sue them?

 Hanskrampf wrote:


No legal information whatsoever actually.
Anyone wanna sue them?

On what grounds ?

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The last bullte simply says that they have the stuff ready for shipping, but thats really not news. I can have everything ready for shipping.

More interesting is that Stellar removed the website part about who they are.
https://www.stellarlicencing.com/index.php/en/?Itemid=147

In the UK, there's a requirement that all websites for companies must have contact details other than simply a contact form or an email address (i.e. a phone number, a physical address, that sort of thing). Is that only a UK requirement, or does it apply to the EU too?

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The last bullte simply says that they have the stuff ready for shipping, but thats really not news. I can have everything ready for shipping.

More interesting is that Stellar removed the website part about who they are.
https://www.stellarlicencing.com/index.php/en/?Itemid=147

In the UK, there's a requirement that all websites for companies must have contact details other than simply a contact form or an email address (i.e. a phone number, a physical address, that sort of thing). Is that only a UK requirement, or does it apply to the EU too?

No, it's an European thing.

Laws like that could vary from state to state here. Is it possible that the French law is different?

It definitely isn't helping their cause to have information like that become unavailable.

HaleysRedComet wrote:
I haven't seen the words "Kickstarter" or "Crowdfunding" mentioned for Confrontation Resurrection. Can someone show me where SD said this is how they plan to launch it?

Not that I don't think that was their plan, but I searched the other day and wasn't able to find where they said that.

They announced that they'd have two kickstarters last December (announcement via Facebook).

While I couldn't find the original post for you, here's the Beasts of War report on it (I remember that there was also a post on TGN for the same thing).

Looking over the things that I've found, I can't find a place where they directly said that they'd do a kickstarter for Con-Resurrection/ I'm definitely not the only one who misunderstood that point. Especially when they've got banners like this showing the two off side by side:






Basically, the cirremt kickstarter is for Confrontation "Classic" - it represents a simple reprinting of old rulebooks with no changes, old sculpts cast in PVC etc. Confrontation Resurrection is a new edition of Confrontation, and the distribution has not been announced.

The announcement isn't an absolute commitment, but it shows that this was the plan.

elarquin wrote:
Then the molds are manufactured and miniatures cast.

So it sounds like they had a meeting with an overseas manufacturer and trusted them.

An old meme, but still holds true, I suppose...! :

None of that is reassuring - at all.

So I made sure to drop my pledge today, just to make sure I don't forget and get caught out at the end - and also to make sure I don't get caught in a potential "48 Hour Unfund Stampede"!

I mean, it probably won't unfund as that would take an average over 25k per day which isn't to likely. But man it should because otherwise there are going to be some angry and very bitter gamers out there.

I suspect your right

(even if it does by some miracle go as planned when the reality of this version being dumped for Evo in a years time it's going to smart with the typical 'nope, not playing an unsupported game' crowd even though they've been told its going to happen)

Well, it does not need to bleed daily that sum.... I guess near the end quite some will drop out.

Most KS have the most movement of money in the first and last few days; with most ticking over at a standard rate during the main body of the period (depending on how their advertising and campaign goes).

The way this one is going I suspect the last day they will see a lot of people drop. If they can't repair their marketing and customer relations chances are they will see a big loss on the last day - or any gain will be offset by loss.

I get that I'm just saying that I don't think it'll unfund. Because it would need to drop significantly over the next few days because the last few days should be a wash (though maybe it'll just be a mass exodus). My guess is that this will barely fund.

Just catching up on the thread. I had some Confrontation minis back in the day as rpg character figs but never got into the actual game. I have to say that reading about all the warning signs brightly out with flashing neon lights involved with the campaign makes it impossible for me to ever consider throwing money at the project coming off of the failure of Palladium's Robotech Tactics in my case.

Regarding Ludikbay/Ludikbazaar - who were stated as "logistics contractor for Sans Detour" and share an owner (Stellar does not share the owner as far as I know, Christophe Ammirati is listed as the director) Joss, one of the SD employees said this in the comments yesterday:

"About Ludikbay : This company is closing... even if we wanted to use it for logistics (And we won't, because we have other contacts with worldwide Hubs who already deal with KS projects), we couldn't. Just because its activity is over and now controlled by a liquidator."

http://www.sans-detour.com/a-propos/

Interestingly the CFO of SD is also the CEO of Stellar, the latter has taken down their team website, so noone with a screenshot from a few days ago can get that link.

New update :

Why is the complete project definitely funded?

Confrontation Classic is funded at 300 000 €. It's a huge amount of money, much bigger than many other projects requesting far less money, and yet being successful. This funding covers all operating costs for the team up until the publication of the game, as well as the fabrication of the miniatures, both resin and plastic. As a matter of fact, we own the original miniatures allowing the manufacturing of the molds. Therefore, you pay neither for the engraving nor for the fabrication of masters! All these reasons make this project very much atypical.

So don't be surprised by the gap in prices in comparison with other projects, or by the generosity of this offer. Confrontation Classic is one of a kind.
As far as we are concerned, we only want to cover the salaries of the team, the production and the shipping costs.
You finance the reediting of an exceptional game, and instantly acquire a snapshot of its Golden Age: the complete game and a large range of gorgeous miniatures!

I honestly don't understand what they're trying to achieve with that, unless they want to shoot themselves in the foot. I mean, if we believe these words, it just confirms that they were greedy bastards at the very beginning with their artificial stretch goals. Of course, there is absolutely nothing to back their claims, so we have to trust them for that to happen.

Unsurprisingly, the funds kept dropping after that announcement.

Oh, and it's really a flaming war in the comments since then. At this point, it's not a train wreck : it's a complete disaster.

"As a matter of fact" .... usually means "I'm lieing through my teeth but can you prove it ?"

If there is one thing I trust about this project, it's that Sans Detour owns the IP (Technically Stellar, but their director is SD's financial guy) and as many master models as were available to them through the sale of that. They released another update that literally just says they will be funded. Again, without context or showing work towards making anything.
We know that SD plans to make an updated version of Confrontation with Resurrection. I don't see how management style like this, along with the ill will many seem to feel towards the company as a result of this project, is going to foster a miniature wargame.

Yes, that was certainly a weird announcement to make.

And probably didn't have the desired effect.



This campaign basically hasn't made any money past day 5.

Now sure, it made quite a bit in the first 2 days but...it hasn't done much to shift off of the "Bound to be a frustrating and disappointing - if not spectacular - trainwreck" designation its had almost from the start.

I haven't been following this one since they launched it still showing images of the original models painted by the original studio.

Have they actually shown any test shots or anything at all that they have actually produced themselves yet?

The only things that SD has made themselves that they have shown so far are the demo cards (no new rules, card redesign), a demo rulebook (simple rules of the game), and 2 original pictures in an update.
The resins they showed were made by Rackham.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
http://www.sans-detour.com/a-propos/

Interestingly the CFO of SD is also the CEO of Stellar, the latter has taken down their team website, so noone with a screenshot from a few days ago can get that link.

So no-one thought to use the Wayback Machine? https://web.archive.org/web/20171019180511/http://www.sans-detour.com/a-propos/

That one is still there, but on the Stellar-website the info-link leads you only to a 404.

Latest update has them with something like *four* Confrontation games. Yeah, because it's as easy to publish games as it miniatures. Oh, wait. These are just ideas that won't result in anything.

Too bad they didn't use their RPG publishing experience to release a Confrontation RPG in the first place. It would have been less expensive than miniatures, be within their area of experience, include fluff to promote the franchise, and help establish a foothold for the company. Maybe they could have offered some resin miniatures with production copies as well.

Confrontation Classic is the starting point for a big project: gather tomorrow's community. The miniatures we offer you with today will be compatible with a great many other games, for a long time.

Here is a quick overview of the upcoming projects, already being discussed with game designers:

All the Conf Classic miniatures will have their profile for Confrontation Resurrection in 2019 (rules are currently being designed)
Hybrid v.2, reworking of a great board game where one would fight against the Dirz alchemist's ungodly creatures.
City of Thieves, a new version of the board game taking place in Cadwallon.
Confrontation, the Role Playing Game.
And of course, Confrontation Resurrection will witness the birth of a new, very much awaited, faction: - the formidable Akkyshans Spider-elves.

RPG is not as licrative a market as miniatures, hence probably the tt-KS

I found a comment of a "true believer" that was interesting to read to understand their point of view :

Grolière Régis - French Conf'Fédération Il y a 36 minutes

Hey guys, you wanna know why I trust SD?

Because they stick to their plans no matter what the sceptics say (yell?).

I mean, even if the communication part is poor, I'm pretty confident in the way they manage this campaign:
From Day 1 people were asking for individual faction, smaller starting boxes, relaunch with a different offer, etc ad libitum...

Sans Détour did something in reards of these claims. They first explained that it was realistic to offer individual factions in regard of the financial health of this project until a certain funding is reached. But they did gave us the possibility to reach that goal.
So project didn't meet it, well so be it.

I find reassuring that SD is not trying to please everyone by promising anything, offering options that would be toxic to the project. To me it's a badge of preofessionalism.

So, the project is founded but will not skyrocket. What's the problem?
On contrary I find a few advantages to it. One of the main problem with many successful KS is the delivery time.
We all know that the greater the success, the longer we'll have to wait and that the chances to finally be delivered off schedule grow.

So, with only 2000 boxes, odds are high that they will deliver next year, maybe 12 months from now, which would be great. And with this deliver will come the beta rules for Resurrection. So we will have a look at them, will have time to test them BEFORE the Resurrection KS launch...

That's why, IMO, they didn't cancel this KS. And that's what the last update stated. Sans Détour has a business plan for the next 2 to 3 years:
2019 - Resurrection, and maybe Cadwallon RPG
2020 ? - Hybrid
2021 ? - City of Thieves

As I said, Sans Détour has a business plan, a schedule and they stick to it. To me it's it's much more trustful than running around and changing plans with every critic.

And to paraphrase an old quote: Confrontation is dead, long live Confrontation

So, your thoughts ? Is it belieavable that SD has a secret and solid business plan by sticking to this Kickstarter to the end, no matter what ? Or is it just blind faith ?

The thing is it doesn't address any of the actual issues - eg no real display of the casting results; not a single photo of anything that actually comes from the KS itself and no explanation as to how they can afford to create so many models on such a small funding target.


Sure SD have offered more to backers in response; they've stuck to their guns; they've also not over-funded to the point where it will affect their delivery (whcih is a valid point - Reaper Miniatures and Kingdom Death both suffered from having huge wait times early on (reaper is better now) due to vast order quantities).

But the thing is that post doesn't address any of the core issues identified.

As I said at the beginning.

The giant red flag here is the fact that they are using an entirely different company's product and marketing material to sell their kickstarter.

Everything else, who is behind it, what firm is related to what is largely a red herring and not worth fussing over.

The simple fact is, they are showing Resin or Metal Confrontation miniatures cast and painted by Rackham studio over a decade ago to promote what are, due to the materials proposed, an entirely different range of models that will have vastly different qualities.

Kind of reminds me of the huge online discussions when Rackham shifted from confrotation metals to Prepainted and claimed that the quality would be the same… Pointless discussion really. In all fairness I would love to see rackham metals back into production since the models deserve it but this project lacks direction. I mean highdetailed miniatures for painters cast in a material that will soften the detail work? From high quality figures to boardgame quality? Dont get who is this intended for but the old fans will not be happy with it… assuming that SD will actually produce something and deliver it.

I just logged into to KS out of grim curiosity. I cancelled my pledge last week. Since then its lost about €100,000in pledges :O

It actually has lost as of now 160k.

Btw I do have some plastics here from Rackham that were on par with their metals, but for one they were of a kind of resin similar to the one Hawk Wargames uses and they were never made in huge numbers. So it is possible to produce really good stuf that is not metal, but the costs are quite high.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
So it is possible to produce really good stuf that is not metal, but the costs are quite high.

They seem pretty adamant about the fact it can be done with 300.000 € only, persisting in saying they already own everything and that will just have to cover the costs of logistics, their own salaries and production since sculpting is already done.

And it include the resin pledges as well, with the "big monsters" and all of the stretch goals that keep being unlocked.

I got to say the fans seem so desperate to see Confrontation "return" they are forgetting all about common sense!

Im also finding a lot of contradictions with the latest being this when asked about the 200+ masters and if they will be damaged in mold making

"Joss Collaborator about 13 hours ago(24hrs by now)
@Benjamin Walter
Usually the facilities produce a couple of high resolution copies from the master to garantee the original sculpt is not destroyed in the process and they work with those copies.
Engineers in these facilities can work to cut the tricky parts on some miniatures to fit the plastic production. It has been done this way for Alkemy when it was produced in plastic (with JX)
The process we intend to use for the scanning is tomography (final resolution with this process is under 100µm) and it's ongoing."

So they are now saying the factory needs to scan all the minis and not a few like its mentioned n the FAQs!

Does any one know how many non 28mm(in height) minis will need to be molded? all the pics make it hard for someone who doesnt know the minis to see the sizes, i can see there are a few mounts and they will not cost $1K to mold, $1K will be the price of your standard 28mm mini, a lot of backers doing maths have forgot to take that into account

The Wolven and Devourer are 2-3 times bigger than the usual 28mm, so this is quite a cost factor to create the molds.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The Wolven and Devourer are 2-3 times bigger than the usual 28mm, so this is quite a cost factor to create the molds.

Thanks yeah i had a hunch they are in the troll/ogre size category

> So, your thoughts ?

Some people are going to be paid their salary, and some people aren't getting their miniatures.

 Original Timmy wrote:

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The Wolven and Devourer are 2-3 times bigger than the usual 28mm, so this is quite a cost factor to create the molds.

Thanks yeah i had a hunch they are in the troll/ogre size category

There are also all the 'giant' barbarians for the Kelts, the Formors for the Drunes, cavalry etc. Every faction has a healthy number of 'big' models.

My thoughts.... Robotech V2.0 and this time the backers got ample warnings.

 plastictrees wrote:

 Original Timmy wrote:

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The Wolven and Devourer are 2-3 times bigger than the usual 28mm, so this is quite a cost factor to create the molds.

Thanks yeah i had a hunch they are in the troll/ogre size category

There are also all the 'giant' barbarians for the Kelts, the Formors for the Drunes, cavalry etc. Every faction has a healthy number of 'big' models.

Thanks, i can imagine some of the cavalry minis come in many pieces too, so you wont be getting many to a mold as all the pieces need keeping together adding to the costs and number of molds needed!

As for my thoughts on the KS and having nothing to do with past Rackham Confrontation, i lost faith when SD went silent and pretty much ignored all constructive criticism regarding a relaunch while pretty much saying "trust us" "we can do it" without anything to back up their comments, all the while they have bleed enough money to buy a brand new Lambo or house outright, 180K isnt peanuts and a gak ton of KS creators would love to receive that sort of funding, which makes me scratch my head over why SD and their fanatics(lets be honest thats what they are) are fine with losing that much money, they must be pretty desperate for money, when a restructured relaunch could do a lot better.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
My thoughts.... Robotech V2.0 and this time the backers got ample warnings.

Even the RIFTS boardgame got 500 backers, and they only had to pledge $100 - $150!

 Original Timmy wrote:
I got to say the fans seem so desperate to see Confrontation "return" they are forgetting all about common sense!

Im also finding a lot of contradictions with the latest being this when asked about the 200+ masters and if they will be damaged in mold making

"Joss Collaborator about 13 hours ago(24hrs by now)
@Benjamin Walter
Usually the facilities produce a couple of high resolution copies from the master to garantee the original sculpt is not destroyed in the process and they work with those copies.
Engineers in these facilities can work to cut the tricky parts on some miniatures to fit the plastic production. It has been done this way for Alkemy when it was produced in plastic (with JX)
The process we intend to use for the scanning is tomography (final resolution with this process is under 100µm) and it's ongoing."

So they are now saying the factory needs to scan all the minis and not a few like its mentioned n the FAQs!

Does any one know how many non 28mm(in height) minis will need to be molded? all the pics make it hard for someone who doesnt know the minis to see the sizes, i can see there are a few mounts and they will not cost $1K to mold, $1K will be the price of your standard 28mm mini, a lot of backers doing maths have forgot to take that into account

This is just another nail in the coffin. The guys have no idea of what they are talking about. 100 µm is just 0.1mm. Scanning at this resolution will result in an enormous loss of detail. Anyway this reverse engineering process is way too expensive. I have serious doubts they will manage to use it for 200 miniatures. Anyway, for PVC miniatures they don't even need the scans to do the molds in the first place.

I am so sorry for the brand. I love Confrontation and still have almost the whole range in metal. It would have been great to see its rebirth.