That's how I'm reading it now I've had time to think about it. It seems odd, but then again many of the decisions for the KS seem odd. I'm choosing to believe that much of this is open to change as I'm positive person by nature, and we've seen KSs change mid-campaign due to backer feedback, so who knows.
I do feel that an option ot buy individual faction boxes would go a long way to making this KS a success, and have contacted SD to convey that, and ended up ina short conversation change with them which left me assured that the guys at SD are fans and want to see it succeed. I'm hoping that means they're recpetive to feedback and have the ability to adapt if needs be.
I never played confrontation but the models were always fantastic. I will probably pick some up just to pai-... let's be real, I'm not going to paint them. Just to own them I guess.
streamdragon wrote: I never played confrontation but the models were always fantastic. I will probably pick some up just to pai-... let's be real, I'm not going to paint them. Just to own them I guess.
excellent honesty there sir I approve but yeah I have a lot still in various stages of painting, but the game itself is awesome!
.Mikes. wrote: I
He says the minis will be mounted, but I didn't catch any explanation on that, maybe I heard wrong.
Huh.
Probably means that the bases will be molded on, already attached.
Not a fan of that, but I guess it isn't the worst thing though.
I *painfully* listened to the first 11 minutes... I didn't get where they talk about minis being mounted on anything. Can you be specific as to where they say that? It's really hard to follow them because they use so many english terms pronounced in parisian... it's maddening.
I thought it was around the 8 minute mark, but listening back I can't hear it. I heard him say the figures would be mounted, but like I said, maybe I heard that wrong, sorry.
So much negativity already . I think I’ll pass. I’d want the wolfen just to go into my kings of war/wrath of kings army, but not buying almost 200 figs go get the few I want.
I’m worried the big hammer of badness may drop when they announce who is casting the figs. Because it would have to be a larger company with the capacity, and I can only think of one....with two names.
I am still hopeful; for this. As others have said, I don't hate restic. Especially for the larger models. I liked the PPP confrontation minis and Have a huge collection of Wolfen, Griffin,, Lions and Dirz (thanks miniature market). I also have quite a few metal confrontation.
I would be ok with getting a giant box with some minis that I may not need as I can also find a use for a mini in an RPG or conversion. But I would prefer being able to choose. I don't like any of those goblins... And the Wolfen they have shown are not ones I was hoping for... but still excited.
I am holding off on a full Daughters of Khaine army until I see if this kickstarter is for me.
Smokestack wrote: I am still hopeful; for this. As others have said, I don't hate restic. Especially for the larger models. I liked the PPP confrontation minis and Have a huge collection of Wolfen, Griffin,, Lions and Dirz (thanks miniature market). I also have quite a few metal confrontation.
I would be ok with getting a giant box with some minis that I may not need as I can also find a use for a mini in an RPG or conversion. But I would prefer being able to choose. I don't like any of those goblins... And the Wolfen they have shown are not ones I was hoping for... but still excited.
I am holding off on a full Daughters of Khaine army until I see if this kickstarter is for me.
Cadwallon RPG for the good rpg conversions I just missed MM ditching everything, figured i had more time I actually prefer my PPP to my metals
Theophony wrote: I’m worried the big hammer of badness may drop when they announce who is casting the figs. Because it would have to be a larger company with the capacity, and I can only think of one....with two names.
For those of us who don't know (IE, me), who would this be and why would they be bad news?
Theophony wrote: I’m worried the big hammer of badness may drop when they announce who is casting the figs. Because it would have to be a larger company with the capacity, and I can only think of one....with two names.
For those of us who don't know (IE, me), who would this be and why would they be bad news?
I'm a huge Confrontation fan since back in the days when you had to learn French to play and order all of your models from a dodgy European "distributor". I own a full Orc army and most of a Acheron force. I've been eager to see this return in the hopes of playing again with others and perhaps picking up some new armies (I always loved Drunes, Goblins, Dirz and had an interest in several others). but so far the selection of models that have been shown for each faction are really unexciting. They managed to not pick any of the really interesting Wolfen choices, and left out all of my favorite goblins and Dirz. They also somehow managed to pick some of the least interesting Griffin models.
So far I'm not seeing anything I would actually want. Which is too bad and pretty surprising. Even if most of the rest of what they show really appeals to me I don't think I'll want to buy an all in one box. And I feel like I should be the target audience for this game.
Is that true? I hadn't seen that. But even if thats the case, these aren't super compelling sets. At least in my mind. It seems like it would have been smart to actually put several fan favorite models for each faction in the starting set.I know what qualifies as a favorite will vary from person to person, but right now what is being offered seems really uninspiring.
jake wrote: Is that true? I hadn't seen that. But even if thats the case, these aren't super compelling sets. At least in my mind. It seems like it would have been smart to actually put several fan favorite models for each faction in the starting set.I know what qualifies as a favorite will vary from person to person, but right now what is being offered seems really uninspiring.
The images say in the top right "Starting Selection" so I'm not sure what else that can mean.
After revealing these figur sets, it is a shame if they do not open up the possibility for individual packs. Like many other have said, some of the choices of figures are most uninspiring. I could see myself join for maybe one faction, but not for everyone since it appears like 90% are figures I dont really care that much about.
jake wrote: Is that true? I hadn't seen that. But even if thats the case, these aren't super compelling sets. At least in my mind. It seems like it would have been smart to actually put several fan favorite models for each faction in the starting set.I know what qualifies as a favorite will vary from person to person, but right now what is being offered seems really uninspiring.
They have said elsewhere that morning figures would unlocked at funding levels.
There is just no way confrontation minis translate well into some cheap plastic.
I call upon you, restic knights, to shield me in these dark times.
I mean, if the PVC isn't cast in one piece, they basically can do most of the confrontation sculpts. The detail is about on par w some of the better Others/Pantheon/Wrath of Kings figures is on par IMO.
I was a HUGE fan of confrontation back in the day simply lovely metals! But plastic, mounted bases and kickstarter are 3 big red flags. I'm really not looking for subpar versions of great models delivered god knows when. No thank you sir. That train moved away many years ago.
It's going to have new plastic castings of scanned models from the original, so already there's some suspect as to the quality; going into a market that is increasingly demanding in terms of quality of product. Ontop of that all the models are, apparently, going to be re-released in a year with brand new sculpts for the new game.
So this big boxed set is sort of trying to cover finances for the next year or so. Yet it just doesn't seem to fit into things nicely. I'd have thought if they were serious about a full re-launch in a year then I'd have expected the KS to have worked toward that, rather than going sideways.
When you factor in that they are selling off hte masters to other sculpts in the original range (sculpts that are old and won't have a market when released and thus are of questionable value). Then it looks more to me like they are trying for a quick cash flow solution - covering themselves for a year and hoping to pull two projects out of funding for one KS project. And that is a huge risk for any company, esp on that is likely not a huge team.
It's going to have new plastic castings of scanned models from the original, so already there's some suspect as to the quality; going into a market that is increasingly demanding in terms of quality of product. Ontop of that all the models are, apparently, going to be re-released in a year with brand new sculpts for the new game.
I may be misunderstanding you, but are you saying that they're planning to do new sculpts for the models that are going to be in THIS kickstarter at a later point when they release their new game? My impression was that the versions presented in this kickstarter would be compatible with the new game, and then starting with the new game they'd be sculpting brand new stuff.
Well I would assume if the models in the KS are only sold in the KS and are going to be usable in the new game then they would have to have new sculpts in the new game. Otherwise KS customers would have access to units that non-KS customers wouldn't be able to get.
Overread wrote: Well I would assume if the models in the KS are only sold in the KS and are going to be usable in the new game then they would have to have new sculpts in the new game. Otherwise KS customers would have access to units that non-KS customers wouldn't be able to get.
I suppose that makes sense... but then why not just keep those models in production for the new game? Why go to the effort of producing a second set of models for the same profiles? They'll have already sold these models to the people who are likely their target audience. many of those people either won't be interested in buying new versions of the same models or will feel put out for investing in the Kickstarter and then realizing that they like the new models better. Also, ebay will almost surely be flooded with incomplete sets from backers who only wanted some of the models, so it will likely be easir to pick up the Kickstarter Wolfen for cheap than paying full price for whatever new models they end up releasing that have the same profile.
I was wondering why I suddenly felt a burning need to check out Dakka this afternoon.
This is exciting, but I am a little leery, for all the reasons folks are mentioning. Only a little though. Rackham did some really excellent model design in terms of casting, generally avoiding sins like mold lines over high detail areas, successfully placing undercuts at separation points, etc. I suspect that with some care and 3d scanning magic PVC molds could capture the majority of quality there.
The company running it worries me more. If it was CMON, sure, I'd be setting aside a cool grand to back. (Why the hell didn't CMON do a KS for their line while they held it I wonder.) With a less well known and possibly inexperienced group, well, I am probably not going to back the first day.
I am pretty certain I will get a set, however. I might own 80-90% of the models, but I love the aesthetics and use them for conversions anyway. If they don't break up the factions and insist on one giant order, I might actually get 2-3 extra sets to break up for resale. It feels a little perverse, since I don't approve of making people buy all of them at once, but hell, I will provide the service in exchange for a good sized profit if they won't. Well, to be honest, my wife will provide the service while I sit in the corner with my daughters and coo over cool things
Do they have a hard limit of 3 good sculpts per starter? I don't understand why they keep packing these sets with sculpts that were pretty mediocre 15+ years ago. I don't get who this is aimed at, other than completionist collectors who want the equivalent of a retrospective of every faction (and those guys probably already have these in metal). Most of the sculpts they selected won't draw in any new players who aren't already on the nostalgia train, and as it isn't a board game, there's going to be a lot of pushback on forcing you to get a bunch of faction boxes you don't want or have use for.
I really want to back this, as I love Confrontation. There are just so many question marks at this point. It is keeping me from being as gung-ho as I wish I could be.
Any have any information about SD? Still haven't heard.
This stuff's going to be sold retail, right? So I guess if you're not sure now, or only want some of the mini's, that's another way to pick up the game...
Agreed, its the first one with all decent or better options. They must have lost the molds for Araqsalil the skinner, the organist and collectors/prowlers. Only explanation for not filling that pack with more weak sculpts lol.
ced1106 wrote: Any have any information about SD? Still haven't heard.
This stuff's going to be sold retail, right? So I guess if you're not sure now, or only want some of the mini's, that's another way to pick up the game...
They said that it would be KS exclusive.
The undead pack is the only one I find interresting as it contains two of the unreleased plastic gouls.
Some of the guys on French forums are collating the points costs of the released forces so far and they're a little all over the place.
From my limited experience, the Wolfen force is OK, but the Griffin force is too unbalanced. I'm assuming that there will be more added as stretch goals. I'm pretty certain that was brought up in the interviews, so the more choice sculpts could be held back for those, which make sense.
I've always liked the kelts, so these ones are by far my favorite pack thus far. I'd go so far to claim that these barbarians are up to par to any barbarian range that is being sculpted today.
I would be surprised if they weren't doing the Drunes, as they appeared to be some of the most enjoyed figures of the entire range by many people. However, I am not so sure they will do another goblin pack beside the one they already have. But I would hope they do, because there are some really awesome figures in that particular design for sure.
I think there are two things that stand out to me in terms of the models:
First, and less important, is the painting on them is remarkable. Clean line, outstanding blending, and some great color choices. Just. overall, a wonderful paint style on every one.
But, that is not about the model.
The other point is that they are imaginative. The Wolfen are not your standard werewofl. Zombies are not your standard zombie. The Dwarves of Mid-nor are unlike anything else out there.
So, at least in my opinion, that what has made the Confrontation models stand out and live so long.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I don't see how these sculpts are beloved. I made fun of MEdge for delivering better minis.
I think the aesthetics and design were more loved than the execution in many cases. At the time Confrontation came out, "fantasy" models were pretty generic medieval Europe stock. Then Rackham roared out with the Dirz, bondage werewolves, undead dwarves with a harlequin puppet motif, elementals that weren't just blobs of rock/fire/etc. They were FANTASY more akin to the Neverending Story or Labyrinth than the low fantasy we were used to. Cadwallon in particular sparked my imagination the way Planescape did. It's also worth nothing this was the first time many had seen NMM, so the paint jobs really stood out among the competition too. And every model had a studio job to aspire to or use as inspiration (less a big deal for GW customers I guess).
I think some sculpts have stood up over time and can compare to Mierce sculpts. Others, like the the minotaur that Alpharius posted... oof!
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I don't see how these sculpts are beloved. I made fun of MEdge for delivering better minis.
I think you will find that the majority of the sculpts have aged a lot better than you think. In my experience they match up quite well with more modern sculpts, and probably have a lower bad:good model ratio than most modern lines. I find them very good to paint myself. Bear in mind that many of the paint jobs in the photos are almost 20 years old, and so don't really show off the models the way a more recent professional could.
Here's a few comparison shots from my gallery. I may be pretty biased, but I would say the Rackham models are very nice compared to their compatriots.
Spoiler:
I share the concern about how well they will translate to PVC, but if they can pull off BloodRage levels of quality, these will be very nice models indeed.
Actually Corvus Belli is the first company to finally reach the level of detail in metal miniatures across their whole range Rackham had in its latter years.
What makes me wonder...
Until now we have only seen reused art and pictures from Rackham. We have not seen anything regarding the new stuff, which is, so close to the KS very strange. We have not even seen renders or pictures of the cleaned up miniatures they want to scan.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: Actually Corvus Belli is the first company to finally reach the level of detail in metal miniatures across their whole range Rackham had in its latter years.
What makes me wonder...
Until now we have only seen reused art and pictures from Rackham. We have not seen anything regarding the new stuff, which is, so close to the KS very strange. We have not even seen renders or pictures of the cleaned up miniatures they want to scan.
At this point in other Kickstarters, most miniature based projects will have renders and prototypes to show. They are scheduled to launch sometime next month, which is already a month past their originally scheduled start of first quarter this year.
My worries might be pointless once the KS starts if they show exactly what they will be delivering. But, they have not instilled any confidence that they have ever produced a single model. We have not seen -one- miniature that Sans Detour has had a hand in making. As for producing on the level of Blood Rage or Mythic Battles - I don't think it is possible at the price point they are asking. Straight out impossible. I can see a Relic Knights style disaster happening at best if they continue to promise the current price point they are.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I don't see how these sculpts are beloved. I made fun of MEdge for delivering better minis.
I think you will find that the majority of the sculpts have aged a lot better than you think. In my experience they match up quite well with more modern sculpts, and probably have a lower bad:good model ratio than most modern lines. I find them very good to paint myself. Bear in mind that many of the paint jobs in the photos are almost 20 years old, and so don't really show off the models the way a more recent professional could.
Here's a few comparison shots from my gallery. I may be pretty biased, but I would say the Rackham models are very nice compared to their compatriots.
I share the concern about how well they will translate to PVC, but if they can pull off BloodRage levels of quality, these will be very nice models indeed.
Some folks just dont like the aesthetic, personally I love Confrontations miniatures and find them in every way vastly superior to anything GW or FW have ever done.
So far, it looks like they're keeping the Clan boxes separate. Hopefully that means they'll be re-released separately? (A man can dream ... I've got the Wolfen and Tir-Na_bor Clans, but sadly missed the Goblin pirates one)
Not too impressed by the selection of the Devourers, either. My hope now goes solely to the Drunes. I dont see how they can fail there, though, as the entire line is really good.
A bunch of bland factions have been posted, but wasnt excited enough to post them here. Have been waiting for the Drunes, and finally they dropped. Good stuff.
the real prob i have, is that i have all the models from the original range that i wanted. there's only a few shown so far that i might grow to like. if there's a BRB only pledge i'll back it, if not i' not so sure.
Kickstarter starts in "April", though I don't remember exactly when in April, or if we even know yet?
Still no fixed date. :(
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bubber wrote: the real prob i have, is that i have all the models from the original range that i wanted. there's only a few shown so far that i might grow to like. if there's a BRB only pledge i'll back it, if not i' not so sure.
SD said there would be stretch goals, so you never know what could be added.
That being said, I'm still not jumping in. I want it to do well, but my eyes are firmly on an ongoing game.
That Drune set is nice, some models I actually don't have. Likewise with the Daikini and the Ophidians. I would be pretty happy to pick up those if they look pretty good.
ced1106 wrote: Yeah, nobody's explained who SD even is. Won't matter how good the miniatures are if they're not able to fulfill the project.
I thought they're using plastic? If so, then they (most likely) can't show production because the plastic molds haven't been made yet.
SD is a European tabletop RPG maker. The handle the French editions of Paranoia, Call of Cthulhu and some other stuff including a few boardgames. Pretty sure that's been mentioned earlier in this thread somewhere.
So no minis production experience that I'm aware of but they've been around for a while.
The left column basically explains what Confrontation is: skirmish, 5-20 models, 45-2h play time, played on 120x60cm board with some terrain etc.
Right column, first question is about the content of the KS box. So in April, it will go live, and contain the rules, 178 figs over 16 factions, and two "battle sets" which are designed to setup two simultaneous battles (I suppose two 1vs1 games), or a single 4 player game. There will be stretch goals like more figs, some terrain, and stuff to play (I assume tokens or similar things), which would be included in the box, and some other stretch goals will be add-ons.
2nd question is about price, basically we won't know before it launches (it's just a good old "we made sure to get the best price for you guys").
3rd question just explains that the figs will be plastic, with the same explanations we had before (metal is too heavy, resin takes to much time to produce).
All in all, I think the only new thing is the "battle sets", for 2 simultaneous games. I don't I had seen this info before.
Yep - they've been pretty consistent with that, but now they also say there are "battle sets", which I am unclear about that being a separate thing or included in the big pledge.
"What will the Kickstarter 2018 event box
contain?
At the start of the April Kickstarter, the
Confrontation Classic box will contain:
- The game rules.
- The 16 factions gathered in a single box,
and playable with a pool of points.
- Meaning 178 unique miniatures.
- Two complete Battle sets in order to set
up 2 simultaneous games, or one 4-player
game.
Of course, this box will be enhanced with all
of the stretch goals and bonuses unlocked
during the campaign: miniatures, terrain,
and other game materiel…
And importantly – some stretch goals will
be available separately, as Add-ons. The
details of these stretch goals will be unveiled
during the Kickstarter campaign.
What will be the price of
Confrontation
Classic
?
The price will be unveiled at the launch of
the Kickstarter campaign. We can already
let you know that we’ve sought the best
manufacturers for the best prices. Our goal
is to be able to offer the most complete event
box possible, and to have it be accessible to
the greatest number of beginning, fan, and
collector players as possible.
Will the miniatures be in plastic, resin, or
metal?
The
Confrontation Classic miniatures
will be in plastic. Metal and resin have
been discarded from our thoughts for the
following reasons: metal, due to its weight,
would have dramatically increased the
total of shipping fees. Resin requires longer
production delays than plastic, which is
incompatible with our determination to
deliver this project without an unreasonable
delay. In any case, our goal is to offer quality
game materiel, adapted to the requirements
of modern miniature gaming."
So the battle sets are maps and dice? Maybe soume counters? Sounds like you get 2 in the box
Aren't plastic moulds the most expensive to make? 178 new moulds is a lot since, assuming, each model will have to have one made. I can only assume that they will try to use larger moulds to double up on models or even triple up if possible to try and cut down on the number of unique moulds they'd need.
Makes me concerned that the funding price is going to be very high; which with only a large, high priced single box on offer might shoot themselves in the foot early on.
Overread wrote: Aren't plastic moulds the most expensive to make? 178 new moulds is a lot since, assuming, each model will have to have one made. I can only assume that they will try to use larger moulds to double up on models or even triple up if possible to try and cut down on the number of unique moulds they'd need.
Makes me concerned that the funding price is going to be very high; which with only a large, high priced single box on offer might shoot themselves in the foot early on.
They're not going to be injection molds like GW uses. The plastic itself will also be different.
If they let you pick one or two factions I bet they would make more money. $200 is steep for some models that you may not want. Maybe check out ebay for the faction I want when the kickstarter is over? We will see.
My concern with this one is that the whole Confrontation thing as presented today is only about the high quality sculpts.
But until I see the PVC versions, I don;t know if they are still high quality sculpts. Every image so far is of one of the original metals, or at least the images I have seen myself, including the group shots.
If they let me just by all the devourers minis for $50 it would be worth the risk. $200 for 178 minis of unknown quality. It won;t be worth the risk.
Not sure it's fair to call it misleading. PVC plastic is just as much a form of plastic as HIPS. Having backed the last couple of releases from CMON, I'd be more than happy with that level of quality.
Mysterio wrote: I suppose we can split hairs, but when someone says "plastic" in this hobby, most people are thinking something closer to HIPs and not PVC.
Maybe in your neck of the woods, but around here we have enough educated people who immediately ask “what type of plastic?” And will keep asking until we get the chemical breakdown, manufacturer name and Material Safety Data Sheets for said plastic.
I am expecting plastic one piece minis like the ones Fantasy Flight did with the Cadwallon board game. Not super high quality, but good enough for a big box of minis and a board game like experience.
If the Confrontation range would look anything like the images above, I would actually then think that the original move from metal to pre-painted plastic (which resulted in the company going under) was a good move.
Fantasy Flight had them available pre painted at one point but they were really expensive for not being very good. I would probably back for cheaper plastics like the above as I can use them in rpgs and other games.
I actually really like those and when painted up they are fine. The Cadwallon RPG allows for some good customizations. I really do prefer the pre painted plastics to my metals.
It's still a bit of a strange choice to relaunch a product brand by releasing what is a pretty major release of models and production on a line that is not actually expected to last more than the KS itself.
After the poor choices of going prepainted plastic and in effect killing their own game I guess there's some strong distrust on if they'll make the right choices now.
Hopefully the KS launches with some actual production sculpts to show the new material and detail; although why they are not building hype before the KS with such is a worrying situation (one would think that they'd at least tried and trialed the method to know it works
While the Fantasy Flight plastic stuff isn't bad, it is not what I want from a Confrontation line of miniatures. I came to love the Conf stuff because it was high quality and had an eye for detail. You cannot get that with the stuff FF made. The sculpts were not made with this material in mind, and it shows. It might not be noticeable to everyone, but I know what I want out of this line of models and it isn't anything they can do with soft plastic.
I like both the prepainted minis from Ragnarok and the plastic FF ones from Cadwallon. They would appeal to me for a bunch of cheap ready to use out of the box minis. I could get a lot of use out of them.
But... I don't think that would do them any favors for future expanding of the game. Who is this being marketed for? New people for a light game? Existing Players who want more, modelers? I would likely buy it and then throw in a corner and pull out cheap minis as needed. Am I the target audience?
It really depends on who they use for the factory, and how the account for PVC shrinkage in converting the sculpts to renders. Most of the sculpts they chose are honestly comparable to stuff I got in The Others//Rising Sun/Mythic Battles. Rackham had visionary design and was among the first to have studio NMM. The technical aspects of the sculpts themselves are fairly average these days.
CMON or Monolith could do this well. To my knowledge, these guys have no experience with PVC or 3d sculpts
Interesting part: "What will the stretch goals be? The details of the stretch goals will be revealed soon. We can already confirm that all of the stretch goals will unlock miniatures which will automatically be added to the contents
of the box. It’s worth mentioning again – the clans and the larger pieces will make their appearance!"
Kickstarter + Nostalgia brand + "Plastic" (aka PVC for cost saving production) = something that's becoming to smell funny
I didn't buy this hype about Confrontation's "resurrection" and I'm pretty sure this Kickstarter won't disappoint me on that point.
Wait and see, as always, but I really don't think it will bring back the game we loved years ago (I followed the game from its birth to its death, and even beyond - no matter what the people said, their pre-painted plastic was good - especially the last products just before everything was lost, especially when we saw what was released elsewhere in the years that followed their demise).
You can get 3 previously unreleased miniatures for Confrontation with your pledge for this kickstarter if you send through your details to the people running the Kickstarter via email. All information here.
Fenriswulf wrote: You can get 3 previously unreleased miniatures for Confrontation with your pledge for this kickstarter if you send through your details to the people running the Kickstarter via email. All information here.
That's a pretty smart way of gauging interested ahead of time. It's still not enough to drag me in, though, but I a looking orwrad to being able ot get in some games of 3rd ed when it ships. Roll on Resurrection.
It does dissapoint me that they are only having the one pledge for all 16 facions. I would have expected a single faction pledge, two faction pledge, four, eight and so on...
I'm affraid I wont be able to fork out for the whole thing.
Second concern is that in the latest beasts of war interview, it was stated that this _first_ kickstarter will be for the classic version... I though that resurrection wasnt going to be kickstarter. The way it was worded made me think otherwise :?
At the start of the April Kickstarter, the Confrontation Classic box will contain:
The game rules.
The 16 factions gathered in a single box, and playable with a pool of points.
Meaning 178 unique miniatures.
Two complete Battle sets in order to set up 2 simultaneous games, or one 4-player game.
Of course, this box will be enhanced with all of the stretch goals and bonuses unlocked during the campaign: miniatures, terrain, and other game materiel… And importantly – some stretch goals will be available separately, as Add-ons. The details of these stretch goals will be unveiled during the Kickstarter campaign.
What will the stretch goals be?
The details of the stretch goals will be revealed soon. We can already confirm that all of the stretch goals will unlock miniatures which will automatically be added to the contents of the box. It’s worth mentioning again – the clans and the larger pieces will make their appearance!
What will the rules for Confrontation Classic be ?
We took the decision to keep the historical and well adjusted rules of Confrontation (known as 3.5 by the experts). Most of the Confrontation community knows these rules, and new players can easily get hold of them. Additionnaly, we will also offer experience rules and a campaign mode (Dogs of War, for those of you who already know the game).
How were the 16 selections for Confrontation Classic made?
These starting selections had to fulfill multiple objectives, starting with the fun of discovery and great playability.
What we’ve also taken into consideration:
The best esthetic choices and visual style representative of the faction.
The variety of gameplay unique to each faction, as each one has advantages which should be used as much as possible during skirmishes.
The vote of the fans of the Facebook page to the Confrontation Hall of Fame. Their choices have often reinforced our own choices, and in other cases helped us come to a decision.
The balance of the factions against each other, so that they could face one another in any game combination, meaning exactly 200 duel possibilities! (Approx. 400 points for experienced players).
Finally, each miniature will be playable with the rules for Confrontation Resurrection, coming in 2019!
Will the miniatures be unpainted?
Yes – you’ll have to paint the miniatures, as Confrontation Classic is our way of paying homage to the great historical game from Rackham, and it’s obvious to us that we should offer the models the way players discovered them at the time.
Round base or square base?
Both! In order to allow players to use Confrontation Classic models with all Confrontation games as well as with other miniature wargames or boardgames, the event box will contain both types of bases: round and square.
Anmerkung der Redaktion: Diese Entscheidung ist zumindest zweischneidig, da die klassischen COnfrontation-Regeln eindeutig auf eckige Bases zugeschnitten sind und mit Rundbases schlechter funktionieren.
SD Sans Detours Confrontation 5
What does the Battle Set contain?
The Battle Set contains all you need to prepare your battlefield: a game map and a set of terrain. These terrain pieces will be designed by Thierry Husser. He was part of the Rackham Studio, knows the world of Confrontation, and creates superb terrain for TH Miniatures. We’re elated to count Thierry among our number as we give new life to this wonderful world.
The basic box will contain 2 Battle Sets, which will allow you to play up to 2 games simultaneously. Also, the Battle Set will be available as an Add-on. You’ll thus be able to play from 2 to 4 players, all the way to 16 players with the same basic box, simply by getting extra Battle Sets (which is useful if you’re a gaming club or a convention and want to hold tournaments!).
Will miniatures not present in the Kickstarter also get a profile for Confrontation Resurrection?
At the moment, we’re focusing our efforts on the profiles of the 178 miniatures from the basic box and (of course) those which will be unlocked through stretch goals. If, after the Kickstarter ends, we still have a few left to adapt, we’ll clarify publicly at that time.
IF this one is done well, that it has the potential to be a real dominant player in this niche part of our niche hobby, easily eclipsing similar offerings like Godslayer, Legends of Fabled Realms, Mantic's Skirmish offering, etc.
BUT, what are the odds that it IS done well, and that the material chosen for the miniatures meets expectations, and so on?
Nostalgia definitely has me rooting for them though!
Whaaaaat? A bunch of guys with no experience going all in on 160+ unique, multipart sculpts they have to digitally translate from metal casts and then will need to correct to account for PVC shrinkage? Using God knows what factory?
I don't see how this is possible, even at $400. Still looking at just under $2 per mini without counting stretch goals (which they said would be included) and the other items in the base pledge. Something that looks like Bones is not what anyone wants for Confrontation minis, in order to achieve the quality Rackham had you need to spend more than that to produce the minis and make a profit.
gonna do it. I like PVC so its a go. 178 models plus the rules to play? thats a hit all at once, but you could easily spend the same amount for 1 army in warmachine, hordes, 40k or AoS
When I started on Conf early last year I hit up the trading forums asking for rules and figs and ended up with pristine copies of 3rd ed rules and Dogs of War pretty damn cheap, and also about 25 Wolfen models through different people for quote cheap too. I assumed the game was so long gone many people just didn't bother listing the minis on ebay, btu when I asked they came out o the woodwork.
Anyhoo, the last email from SD invited people to talking about Confrontation on social media and offered credit on Cadwallon for those who did. That struck me as a fairly smart and low cost way to generate screen time, and gave something back to the fans.
Woah.... the "payment" they offer for doing what is actually their job is quite bad... I would not even turn on my computer for the payment they offer for translation. Keep in mind that the miniatures cost them way less than you have to pay credits for....
Oh man, have to say that new Facebook trailer has me mighty tempted even at this crazy price. Showing the old metal minis is super misleading though, I think I'd need to see at least a few samples of the new stuff before I put down what they are asking for this. I'll probably lock in the early bird pledge if possible then have 30 days to decide whether to back out, based on what more they tell us....
thekingofkings wrote: gonna do it. I like PVC so its a go. 178 models plus the rules to play? thats a hit all at once, but you could easily spend the same amount for 1 army in warmachine, hordes, 40k or AoS
I right there with ya on all points except for it being kickstarter. It's not the money, I'll spend that on an army and be quite happy especially with how many figures you're getting. But I have a rule: don't give a KS any money that you can't afford to never see a return on. I'd toss $100 at a KS that may or may never deliver, but $400 is just too much for a maybe. I think I'll toss in a dollar and wait for it to deliver then buy what I want off ebay.
Worse case scenario, I already have 5 factions worth of armies from metals and PPP, but nobody willing to play them (most of my firends still seethe at the word Rackham and refuse to play, even if all armies are provided). Maybe this will generate enough interest to get them to give it another shot
I'd like to take this chance to say that anyone around DC in the USA should message me if they would like to play Confrontation with our group. We have a group that plays almost weekly.
HaleysRedComet wrote: I'd like to take this chance to say that anyone around DC in the USA should message me if they would like to play Confrontation with our group. We have a group that plays almost weekly.
Nice. When the KS kicks off I'm going to see if I can drum some interest here.
thekingofkings wrote: gonna do it. I like PVC so its a go. 178 models plus the rules to play? thats a hit all at once, but you could easily spend the same amount for 1 army in warmachine, hordes, 40k or AoS
I right there with ya on all points except for it being kickstarter. It's not the money, I'll spend that on an army and be quite happy especially with how many figures you're getting. But I have a rule: don't give a KS any money that you can't afford to never see a return on. I'd toss $100 at a KS that may or may never deliver, but $400 is just too much for a maybe. I think I'll toss in a dollar and wait for it to deliver then buy what I want off ebay.
Worse case scenario, I already have 5 factions worth of armies from metals and PPP, but nobody willing to play them (most of my firends still seethe at the word Rackham and refuse to play, even if all armies are provided). Maybe this will generate enough interest to get them to give it another shot
We play a lot, but have a lot of holes in our lineup (especially rams and lions for PPP) so its still good risk for us.
- Sans Détour doesn't answer to the questions about the real material used for the production. Communication isn't their best for now, so watch what will happen in the comments section when the KS starts.
- For now, most of their interventions are pure marketing operations pushing people to gather as many backers as possible, as fast as possible.
- All of the visuals are from the old miniatures in metal, from the time Rackham was at its top. Including the paint. They are awesome, of course, but thing is...this project won't be making them in metal. So they are nowhere guaranted to be those we will really get in the end. Again, no answer from them about this.
In short ; they're fishy. I'll recommand to be careful and press them to answer when the Kickstarter is out and force them to show actual production miniatures. If they don't...well, be aware of the risks.
YouKnowsIt wrote: Did anyone receive a confirmation after e-mailing about the 3 extra miniatures?
Yes, I did in fact receive an e-mail confirmation today that I 'qualify' for the 3 extra miniatures, provided I back for the core box using the same e-mail address as the one used to get the 3 extras.
Of course, this is looking less likely now, given what we think the cost for the core box will end up being, but....I suppose we'l find out soon enough!
They have planned to launch Confrontation Resurrection in 2019, which will be a new game with new minis. They don't have a ton of information right now, but I could swear I read they would be starting it around April 2019.
But they really do need to offer a little more clarity on the miniatures, materials and castings before the end, of I think a lot of people will drop out.
I currently estimate the probability of delivery no more than 1 year late and miniature quality equal to or exceeding the old pre painted plastics to be about 20%.
Wow, I expected at least renders of the scanned miniatures and a quick summary of how they were/are going to optimise them for PVC.
The Kickstarter page literally has no info at all about the product they are selling.
It's already been said, but the fact that there are no "final product" sneak peeks, or even any info about the type of plastic makes it a pretty easy no for me.
At this price point, I can't imagine how they'd be able to make decent quality plastics... seems to me that this would be more akin to board game plastics, or something like Reaper Bone?
I'll be following to see if there are any updates on this, but I'm very skeptical.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: I am leaning back, grabbing my popcorn and watching the train wreck this is probably turning into.
This is an unhelpful and possible unhealthy attitude to have.
Couldn't you instead offer the community something more positive?
I mean sure, there are lots of...warning signs here, but actively wishing for a 'train wreck' seems unnecessarily spiteful.
You could at the very least offer us an alternative game to support instead, right?
He seems to have an unhealthily appetite for negativity, at least with regards to this project. I can only assume Confrontation stole his girlfriend.
I find that it is often the people who were initially the most excited that become the most resentful as the realities of the project are revealed.
"This is the rerelease my beloved XYZ is going to get????"
And to be fair, the only thing positive that this project has going for it is the name.
Just by the odds alone a first time KS creator from a small studio taking on a massive brand/project using new technology they haven't apparently even done a trial run with in order to produce a massive pile of miniatures in China in a notoriously difficult material doesn't exactly have a good chance of success.
I've been a long time fan of Confrontation, and I have a lot of their metal miniatures, but I am very trepidacious about this KS. I think I will likely have to skip it based on the cost of it, and how little I know about the KS materials being used to make these miniatures. If it were hard sprue plastic, I would be in. Not having any clear indication means I'll likely have to skip.
Meh, KS page has too much warning signs. Literally 0 pictures or renders of what we actually might get...milking old Conf glory to the fullest. If this was any other game I wouldn't even bother with it, after looking at page. No videos, no reviews, no rules...nothing except for the old pictures, because why bother with showing any actually product you are selling, right?
And we are not getting uraken clan...
Yea, best of luck to them. I will pick some metal models later on for cheap if I want, on top of several armies I have.
I actually worked for Rackham as a Freelancer back then.
What really made me scratch my head with SD was when the licenzed the game from another company (Stellar) that also belongs to their boss and the xact same company started to sell the masters of the first 100 minis Rackham produced. That´s a very strange thing to do.
I guess these guys are not very conscious of what they doing...
They want to produce "plastic" version of the already sculpted confrontation miniatures, well is near impossible: the old confrontation miniatures were designed for spicast metal mould, no way they can do with it pressure injection moulds, need a lot of engineering and is very hard task for a not digital sculpted model, I guess is a more cheap option if they will resculpt for plastic. The only option they have is produced in PVC, but well, again the model was not designed for PVC, so the result will be a very poor made miniature, not near the quality they had cast in metal or resin.
Nizar wrote: I guess these guys are not very conscious of what they doing...
They want to produce "plastic" version of the already sculpted confrontation miniatures, well is near impossible: the old confrontation miniatures were designed for spicast metal mould, no way they can do with it pressure injection moulds, need a lot of engineering and is very hard task for a not digital sculpted model, I guess is a more cheap option if they will resculpt for plastic. The only option they have is produced in PVC, but well, again the model was not designed for PVC, so the result will be a very poor made miniature, not near the quality they had cast in metal or resin.
Yeah, like it was mentioned before, at this pricepoint it has to be PVC.
For good results, they would need to scan the masters and rework them for the different casting method/material.
They offer no insight of what exactly they have done, though.
You should assume the worst.
Still just images of existing metal models ( the original ones painted by Rackham studio team no less), and no mention that the minis on show are not the minis being offered.
That alone is a huge red flag.
If I could pick one faction, I may have risked €50 on it. But not €300.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: They told us the miniatures would be scanned and cleaned up on the computer. But I can´t see how they are going to finance this.
Yes, totally agree, a digital cleaning process is a boring process, very boring, there is some automatic tool, but the result is far from good.
Hanskrampf wrote:Yeah, like it was mentioned before, at this pricepoint it has to be PVC.
For good results, they would need to scan the masters and rework them for the different casting method/material.
They offer no insight of what exactly they have done, though.
You should assume the worst..
Agree, they only show a Gargoyle, but this model looks like a cheap conversion and not a new sculpted model.
They remind me a company I sculpted some models, Kings Makers and they kickstarter for a game called War Prime (where they want produce plastic models and selling for a 1 $ per model)
I share most of you guys' concerns, but my main reason for not backing is the all-or-nothing deal. We've known about it for a while, but I have no interest in buying 200 minis, most of which I really don't care for.
It's a bit frustrating, as I would love to show my support for the Resurrection project. I guess this KS is in part designed to "test the water", and see how much people are interested in the game, but their setup isn't great for that.
If there were an option to buy a single faction, or at the very least a couple ones with the board/terrain (a typical starter set in the end), I would have backed it.
It's already funded, by a large margin, so at least there's some big interest for the game. Hopefully that will drive the Resurrection program forward.
fresus wrote: I share most of you guys' concerns, but my main reason for not backing is the all-or-nothing deal. We've known about it for a while, but I have no interest in buying 200 minis, most of which I really don't care for.
It's a bit frustrating, as I would love to show my support for the Resurrection project. I guess this KS is in part designed to "test the water", and see how much people are interested in the game, but their setup isn't great for that.
If there were an option to buy a single faction, or at the very least a couple ones with the board/terrain (a typical starter set in the end), I would have backed it.
It's already funded, by a large margin, so at least there's some big interest for the game. Hopefully that will drive the Resurrection program forward.
In my opinion, they cannot produce anything even if the Kickstarter will be successful. 176 model for 300 euro, if they will produce in metal (because they cannot produce in "plastic" pressure injection mould, like GW and digital refine is a mess so even PVC is not a practical option, in my opinion, I know because I'm a digital and traditional miniatures sculptor) it will barely cover the moulds cost.
I hope they can explain with concrete examples what is their plan, so happy to be wrong but IMO they have not the experience and know out for a so big mass production task.
They told one guy from a miniatures blog that there will be no production samples during the KS. And the miniatures at Studio Giraldez are resin ones and as such not identical with the final product.
I share your doubts. No way will they be able to do it even with this much money. Alone the digital cleaning up will cost them massively if done right.
So if I got it correctly, they will provide rules but not cards for models? Or will they also include every card that came with models people are getting?
Noone knows... they are not giving any details.
And the cards need at least some editing, since quite some erratas need to be included.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Don´t know whther they really have a contract. From their product plan I would say that they at best have a verbal agreement and want to put it on paper after the KS.
Overread wrote: Didn't the recaster company sign up with them? Could they just be using the recasting companies resources to produce masters for the plastic casting?
As I stated in my previous post, a model designed for spincast mould cannot be used for plastic moulds due to undercuts. They can use the same model for PVC cast, but PVC models have less crisp details, and in general, a very low quality, to avoid as much as possible PVC problem you need to sculpt the model in a different way (an example, more crisp and bold details), this mean they need to heavily retouch the actual model they just have.
There is just no way these will look like anything else then a melted lump of plastic imo.
Confrontation minis just have too much of thin filigree on armor plates etc.
Post from the creators in the comment section just now:
''Hello Adventurers,
We are reading all your comments and concerns especially about the plastic.
We will give more informations about our process soon.
And thanks again for your support ! ''
Saw no concrete info on materials and the creators are unwilling or unable to say anything other than “look at the FAQ”.
Immediately dropped pledge.
I'm following a similar program with one key difference:
Grabbed an EB.
Saw no concrete info on materials and the creators are unwilling or unable to say anything other than “look at the FAQ”.
Will hold on to pledge until near the end - if my concerns aren't addressed or if I'm still leery, will drop pledge in last few days.
Of course, you've got to be careful as after a certain point, I believe KS won't let you drop a pledge in the Nth hour if it would cause the project to not fund?
Don't want to be without a chair if/when that particular song stops...
Overread wrote: Didn't the recaster company sign up with them? Could they just be using the recasting companies resources to produce masters for the plastic casting?
As I stated in my previous post, a model designed for spincast mould cannot be used for plastic moulds due to undercuts. They can use the same model for PVC cast, but PVC models have less crisp details, and in general, a very low quality, to avoid as much as possible PVC problem you need to sculpt the model in a different way (an example, more crisp and bold details), this mean they need to heavily retouch the actual model they just have.
Almost all of these old sculpts would work for top notch PVC. They honestly aren't as sharply detailed as you remember being wowed by nearly 20 years ago. I've seen results for Mythic Pantheon, Rising Sun, etc. THAT factory could do them, if they were provided with good renders. Problem is we don't know who these guys are using, and the stretch goal pacing is too close together to give me confidence they're building good margins to correct issues later, with multiple figures lumped in one 30k stretch goal.
Overread wrote: Didn't the recaster company sign up with them? Could they just be using the recasting companies resources to produce masters for the plastic casting?
As I stated in my previous post, a model designed for spincast mould cannot be used for plastic moulds due to undercuts. They can use the same model for PVC cast, but PVC models have less crisp details, and in general, a very low quality, to avoid as much as possible PVC problem you need to sculpt the model in a different way (an example, more crisp and bold details), this mean they need to heavily retouch the actual model they just have.
Almost all of these old sculpts would work for top notch PVC. They honestly aren't as sharply detailed as you remember being wowed by nearly 20 years ago. I've seen results for Mythic Pantheon, Rising Sun, etc. THAT factory could do them, if they were provided with good renders. Problem is we don't know who these guys are using, and the stretch goal pacing is too close together to give me confidence they're building good margins to correct issues later, with multiple figures lumped in one 30k stretch goal.
Even if they're using someone like Ludofact, they still would need to rework the models. PVC shrinks a lot more than metal.
Vampire Hunters used Ludofact, and even made an update about them reworking the renders on suggestions of Ludofact, because the details were too shallow. Obviously they didn't get around to all models and/or details (or simply forgot), because a good portion of the models came out mediocre and missing details.
This looks like a complete and total poop show. Good luck to anyone who keeps their pledge. This couldn't have more red flags if they they tried. It's like they're checking off a list of every red flag we've ever seen to date.
Overread wrote: Didn't the recaster company sign up with them? Could they just be using the recasting companies resources to produce masters for the plastic casting?
As I stated in my previous post, a model designed for spincast mould cannot be used for plastic moulds due to undercuts. They can use the same model for PVC cast, but PVC models have less crisp details, and in general, a very low quality, to avoid as much as possible PVC problem you need to sculpt the model in a different way (an example, more crisp and bold details), this mean they need to heavily retouch the actual model they just have.
Almost all of these old sculpts would work for top notch PVC. They honestly aren't as sharply detailed as you remember being wowed by nearly 20 years ago. I've seen results for Mythic Pantheon, Rising Sun, etc. THAT factory could do them, if they were provided with good renders. Problem is we don't know who these guys are using, and the stretch goal pacing is too close together to give me confidence they're building good margins to correct issues later, with multiple figures lumped in one 30k stretch goal.
Even if they're using someone like Ludofact, they still would need to rework the models. PVC shrinks a lot more than metal.
Vampire Hunters used Ludofact, and even made an update about them reworking the renders on suggestions of Ludofact, because the details were too shallow. Obviously they didn't get around to all models and/or details (or simply forgot), because a good portion of the models came out mediocre and missing details.
Totally agree. Maybe I'm wrong they have a big surprise
Completely unacceptable and downright immoral to just re-use the original Rackham photographs to show off the product, very misleading... We see the many red flags because we know they're re-used, but other people will not be so fortunate and fall for this. Just overlooking the page I still haven't found any obvious disclaimers on that the pictures are not of prototypes or final product.
On top of that the video doesn't even show anyone talk about the product, all we get is some cheesy trailer and P&R as if we're back with good 'ole GW in the 2000s. Best outcome would be them working with the previous recasters (Unlikely due to plastic), worst a pile of heroclix figures. ....Unreasonable dream outcome: They already have big capital behind this, go for the long game, HIPS low part-count figures on sprues a-la GW's LotR.
From their risks, this doesn't sound too appealing either:
- We already master the various stages to manufacture the miniatures: concept-art, modeling, master, sprue-casting or complete and assembled miniatures…
Frankly, I would just as much like someone to just put out unpainted versions of the prepainted plastic Age of Ragnorok minis. Despite not being as detailed as the metals, most of the evils of those were in the bad paintjobs. Plus they wouldn't require special tooling.
Lemure wrote: I still haven't found any obvious disclaimers on that the pictures are not of prototypes or final product.
There is small lettering saying they are not “contractual” images, for what it’s worth...
Where does it say that? If I Ctrl+F I can't find it on the page. That you would write such a thing in small letters instead of just explaining it directly still seems ethically shady..
Yes, these are difinatelly not prototypes. Studio giraldez said they got resin models. So again, you are not looking at quality you will get, since they probably don't know how final product will turn out.
With the ammount of models, this will turn out 'cheaper' than CMON kickstarters price per model?, on top of that you will get hundreads of cards. Some of those models came with dozen in a blister? And all those cards in several languages...we are looking at 1000cards if not more?
Way too risky to gamble +300€, since I really don't believe they will be able to deliver quality they want you to believe you will get in the end.
But hey, if they deliver then great! I will back their new KS about new Conf if they still plan to go with that 2019.
Lemure wrote: I asked them why they re-used Rackham's photographs since it doesn't represent the product and this was their (full) reply:
Why did Rackham showed this photographs which in fact are resin painted by professionals when they sold unpainted metal miniatures in the end... ?
Oh lord, this might be one of the dangest things I've read in a long while. If they honestly can't see that there is a difference between resin/metal and resin/pvc then I've even got less faith in them. And if they do see the difference, but pretend there is none, well, none the better. So either way, with a reply like that my concerns are only increased.
Lemure wrote: I asked them why they re-used Rackham's photographs since it doesn't represent the product and this was their (full) reply:
Why did Rackham showed this photographs which in fact are resin painted by professionals when they sold unpainted metal miniatures in the end... ?
Sounds like they're butthurt.
Maybe too many people asking for the exact kind of material, production process and production prototypes?
This sounds worse and worse.
I think lots of people will be disappointed with this, there're guys on Kickstarter that defend them because they have been publishing books since 2008 but can't see a difference between publishing books and publishing miniatures.
I'm gonna stick with 1€ so I can receive their updates for the next few years.
As much as I'd love to get my hands on some Rackham stuff, this KS is looking hella fishy, with nothing to show to back it up either. It's hard not to side with everyone else's suspicions. I'll bide my time on this one for now, but things are not holding up well.
Lemure wrote: I asked them why they re-used Rackham's photographs since it doesn't represent the product and this was their (full) reply:
Why did Rackham showed this photographs which in fact are resin painted by professionals when they sold unpainted metal miniatures in the end... ?
All of rackham painted models were resin ones back in the day?
This attitude is really reasuring, coming from them,lol...somehow I feel glad I dodged the bullet and dropped the pledge
Yes they were. They paint them up while waiting for the final molds, but due to the small difference between the high quality metal mini's they made and the resin it'd be hard to spot the difference. Incomparable to using images of resin miniatures that were turned into metal that are 3D-scanned, altered and then made in PVC. Their stance on this is clear, they have no intention of being open about it:
"Well in fact it's how is working the whole industry. .... Basicaly the whole industry is lying. Do all the other editors tell they are showing resin casted minis ? (I think you know the anwser)"
Too bad, love the miniatures and wish they'd be more easily available.
The miniature above is either metal or resin. I have both versions.
The minis in the pictures of Rackham were Resin and metal, depending on when they were needed. But the difference is very small between them. Rackham could get a miniature in 30 days from sketch to mould at its best times.
I just got some calculations in from friends working for the factories that can do such miniatures. The tooling alone would cost around 1 million, that´s not production, shipping, printing of the cards in five languages etc. calculated in.
I will just let it sink in...
Lemure wrote: I still haven't found any obvious disclaimers on that the pictures are not of prototypes or final product.
There is small lettering saying they are not “contractual” images, for what it’s worth...
Where does it say that? If I Ctrl+F I can't find it on the page. That you would write such a thing in small letters instead of just explaining it directly still seems ethically shady..
They have been planning this for over a year and they just said they wouldn't touch the rulebook because it would take too much time. That's hobbyist level stuff right there. Nothing about this project screams "good news".
fwiw, Here's their FB page. References to Confrontation and SD, as well as other games. It's entirely possible that SD is just a division of LB, to separate publication distribution from miniatures production. But that still doesn't mean SD/LB has an experience in a miniatures KS. I hope Dakkanauts who speak French can do a better job of tracking down these people! (EDIT: Found another of their FB pages?)
SD's Twitter feed. https://twitter.com/EdSansDetour One of the posts says they've been around 10 years. But I'm still not seeing any miniatures production. Everything I'm seeing is either a storefront or distribution (?).
Joss, in the comments, says they're preparing a statement about the plastic.
Really, the way SD is handling this vs., say, Fireball Island or even Hellboy on BGG is night and day. No idea why it's not obvious, but if you can't give potential customers enough information to part with over $400, they won't give it to you!
****
Terrain posted on FB! Not Contractual Picture!
(Wonder what the card and rules translation will be like...)
Well, one good thing to come from this is all the Rackham miniatures I still have in shrink wrap or blister are now worth a hell of a lot more to people looking for an alternative to this.
I might go looking to see how much I can get for my Titan Dragon and Mid-Nor Court of the Abyss boxes...
Fenriswulf wrote: Well, one good thing to come from this is all the Rackham miniatures I still have in shrink wrap or blister are now worth a hell of a lot more to people looking for an alternative to this.
I might go looking to see how much I can get for my Titan Dragon and Mid-Nor Court of the Abyss boxes...
You're...not wrong!
I know I'd be interested in any Dwarves, Wolfen and Dirz you're selling!
Huh. Just stumbled across the Confrontation KS, and backed it for one <unit of currency>
Lots of folks here sounding skeptical, but it's already blown past its goal, and closing in on $800,000. I didn't realize this game was so popular!
Some of the minis are cool looking, so I'll pick and choose. Not keen on rather silly $300+ pledge (the only option? Really?), and am rather surprised it's doing so well given the high barrier to entry!
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS And this looks like the only Confrontation thread now in the News & Rumors section - I presume this is where we talk (bitch and moan?) about the KS, eh?
It is actually stagnating around 620 for the whole day. and it did make its goal, but as usual this is not what would be needed to pay for the tooling and production. They still will need more.
Way of Gamers is a crowdfunding platform published by SMART TRADING DIFFUSION, registered in the ORIAS register as an intermediary in crowdfunding (IFP) under the registration number 16001172. ... For more than 3 years, SMART TRADING DIFFUSION has been involved in corporate advisory services, particularly in the Administration and Finance Department, and more specifically in the Game Board sector, including crowdfunding operations (Editions SANS-DETOUR, Ludikbazar). , Ludibay).
I only found one project there, about a Lovecraft comic book or something?? I'm not familiar with France's crowdsourcing.
I couldn't find more info about Stellar, other than Joss' KS comment.
@thierry weigman We won't disclose the contracts we sent but yes, we contacted Nicolas, Jérome, Martin... And if you think you have legal issues to deal with the owner of the licence, feel free to contact Stellar Licencing. That's the only thing I can advise you to do.
We're still waiting on what plastic will be used. And here's an apt comment from the KS. "At PK's suggestion, I reread the risks & challenges. This is my favourite line: "We have a very clear communication plan and an excellent media relaying. " They've been so clear they're practically invisible."
Glad people were able to figure out that Ludikbazar is connected, as they've been having financial problems for quite some time.
This is the last two emails I received from them, translated by Google Translate -
18th March, 2018
"Hello everyone,
Here is a great adventure that has lasted fifteen years already, the ebay account was launched in March 2003 and the ludikbazar site at the end of 2004. When you carry out an activity such as e-commerce for more than fifteen years you learn to put a lot of things into perspective and to know ups and downs.
It's been several years since the activity became complicated, it is indeed difficult to survive in our field facing large structures such as amazon or philibert, my philosophy had always been to be close to our customers, to be fun while offering games as specialized as possible and continuing to make the opportunity (my hobby I was a collector well before launching ludikbazar) without necessarily entering a model too economic and dehumanized.
I think that the rationality of the market, the search for the price and the instantaneity requested by the customers have triumphed, it is necessary to go to the evidence it is no longer really possible for companies on a human scale like us (nine people) to survive on the new home market and the investments that would be required to stay in the race against the big players far outweigh our financial capabilities.
Our real concerns started in December 2017. What was our fault? not being able to order at Asmodée from mid-December for lack of cash (we pay in advance orders and sales on the marketplaces are that we are paid off, so the more we sell more we have to get out of money advanced). Suddenly this has led to delays on shipments and malfunctions. In the past Christmas time Asmodée society has already played the game and helped us by leaving us time, but not this time. So we had to cut hundreds of thousands of euros in turnover because we could not order the products. Situation rather ubiquitous but we will not be the first to risk dying for lack of managing seasonal variations.
I think that in fifteen years of entrepreneurship in many activities I have never seen such a torrent of violence and hatred spilled, threats, paypal blockages, mails and hate calls for delays in orders or missing products. a value often well below five euros. I completely understand the nerves of customers and our shortcomings, the whole team struggled (accounting included) so that the delay of sending parcels is filled on January, then Cédric my partner has caught up with the hundreds of late emails and we processed hundreds of sav to arrive today at a pretty stable situation with still some pre-order products to catch up. But our situation is not better, the team has struggled through this period and many people have left us unable to withstand this pressure and permanent daily. Our offer has melted and our turnover with.
We are bloodless both financially and psychologically. It's not a call for help or a need for psychological support it's just a fact and I think after fifteen years of doing this job and having personally discussed and exchanged with thousands among you, I can authorize myself to write it publicly and modestly.
But then, the future?
We have an opportunity in two months to reinvent ourselves to a new model, until we have to hold this period, pay our employees, our expenses and our rent. It is not obvious but it is possible.
We are seriously thinking of going back to our first love and what was the strength of our sites, the opportunity and the work with individuals. The new home market no longer supports diversity and we willingly give way to almost a single supplier and very soon a single reseller of games on the web, the dice are thrown at this stage and no major player in our community wants a plurality of the offer on the market. We do not have the size to fight against this inevitable trend.
What do we need to survive and try to reinvent ourselves?
In all transparency, we need to liquidate our stock to find a few tens of thousands of euros in cash and continue our business of buying and selling used products.
If you want to help us or support us?
We will not ask you to help us financially but we offer as always a win-win, take advantage of our operation of the moment, each order placed will allow us to recover some cash on our stock and give us the time we need to revive our business.
In the same way we wish to extend our second-hand activity to other domains, and here too we propose an interesting model:
We are interested in buying all the cultural products you do not want anymore: games, books, novels, bds, manga, comics, video games, consoles, collections products, figurines, coins, vinyl records, cds, dvds, computer equipment, goodies etc ...
This activity is different from the one we practice on the occasion, the idea is that you send in bulk products you do not want anymore and do not want to deal with the resale, for lack of time or because it would not be worth it the shot for you. We will take care of estimating the resale value, store and list your products and then we will pay back 20% of the resale price of the products. Of course, this will be especially interesting for things that are not interesting anymore or that seem complicated to estimate, manage. For games we continue (with a little delay this week) to establish usual estimates.
Here again is the opportunity to communicate to you, but not with good news.
First of all, I would like to thank all those who sent us messages of support and took part in the destocking operation last week, and also sorry for the pre-order mess.
Things have rushed since and our difficulties have not stopped, quite the contrary.
From the beginning I made the choice to communicate as transparently as possible about our difficulties and despite the consequences that it may have had I always think that we were right to do, a TPE remains a human adventure and that- It lasted for fifteen years, whether for me or Cédric de ludibay. You have been more than 100,000 to order on our sites from the beginning and even more on the marketplaces, we have sold millions of games and processed up to 20 000 orders per month, it's not nothing and we are very proud.
We are doing a destocking operation, it will probably be the last we do, this operation will last until stocks are exhausted.
At this point we arrive at the end of the month and have to deal with our most urgent regulations.
It is with a heavy heart that I think we have arrived at the end of this adventure, sadly because we have identified a lot of growth drivers and a new economic model that has shown great results, but without funding or sufficient resources we do not could put it in place.
We envisage the sale of our websites and our assets, we invite all those interested in a resumption of the activity whether by a direct or community approach to contact me on piotr@ludikbazar.com, all solutions are possible even the resale of a single site.
In the meantime take advantage of our latest offers and products that we have, we may put some products on sale as and when our inventory. We hope to be able to ship the latest orders on hold in order to have a situation as clean and simple as possible, as well as disable the virtual products remaining on our site.
We will continue to be active and look forward to the opportunity of either a buyer or the event we talked to you a few days ago."
They had been talking about their cash flow and business problems for quite a while, and their facebook page does seem to have a fair few complaints about orders not being fulfilled. I am even more concerned about this than I was before.
I am tempted pledging for it and asking some of the questions that I would want to be answered by every KS-Team. But probably I wont get satisfactory answers...
People should post this to KS page in comments sections, so folks up there know the situation...more red flags on top of forrest of red flags there out there.
A quick update about the rules.
In the Celebration Box, will be included two booklets (in english and in french) with "Quick Start Rules" for you to be able to explore quickly the gameplay of Confrontation.
If you want to go deeper into the game with some advanced rules then jump into the complete rules of Confrontation 3-3.5 !
You can now download those for free on our website (www.confrontation-universe.com) and they are available in french, english, italian, german and spanish.
The QSR (Quick Start Rules) will also be available on the website later.
Sounds like backers won't even get a printed copy of the full rule set, but only the QSR?
Anybody knows how molds are made for pvc miniatures?
As they will have 178 unique minis that's a lot of molds. Usually all other kickstarters have lots of duplicates.
For hard plastic I know they cut in the mold in a big piece of steel. And for metal miniatures they use a big piece of rubber which it is pressed into.
But how are pvc made?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And one curious thing, ludik bazaar sold some of the old molds for metal confrontation miniatures before. How come they had them? Kinda weird.
As mentioned before, not a good use for a fantastic IP, with gorgeous miniatures and fun gameplay...
Odds are that this one will probably not ship at all, and if it somehow manages to pull it off, the quality of the PVC minis will be...not good. At all.
that can be done via digital sculpting or scanning a traditional sculpt (and tidying up any bits that don't look right via digital sculpting)
1a. 'Cut' up the digital sculpt for casting you need lots of skill here, lots of little bits are easier but tend not to please gamers, and aesthetics are important too eg no cuts down the middle of a face even if it is easier
a good example of this is Adam from Kingdom Death personally reviewing the cuts on all his sculpts as despite their skill and experience the factory he uses still makes odd choices as to where cuts go sometimes (Adam doesn't mind lots of small pieces, but does draw the line as those messing up the look of the final piece
2. Tool a mould on a CNC machine using the digital file
the material chosen is based on how many 'pulls' you want, steel is more long lasting but takes longer = more expensive, something like aluminium makes can be used for mould needing less 'pulls'
3. attempt a test shot with your material of choice to make sure the mould fills properly, if the plastic doesn't reach all parts reliably or if the finished article is damaged being extracted back to the digital sculpt & tooling machine to refine the mould
repeat as needed (likely to be multiple passes as you refine the fit and 'pull')
4. There may be a stage of refining the material used, if you've got a tricky undercut you want to keep you could choose a softer version of the PVC that will pull out of the mould ok (some reaper bones are like this with one part done in a softer PVC than the rest), if you've got something thin that keeps bending maybe a harder version of the PVC will keep it straight
5. Send a sample to the client to ok (another tricky step as they should send random stuff off the line, but it's not uncommon to have the 'best' casts selected for the sharpest detail, minimal mould lines etc made on their most well maintained machine by their most skilled operators)
Duncan_Idaho wrote: As you can see from the description above you better know what you do and that´s were I have my doubts with SD and plastic production.
You either need experience or an unreasonable amount of dedication to your product (which Poots of Kingdom Death has). SD doesn't have casting experience. SD also has not shown much dedication to the game so far. They haven't produced anything new except some terrain renders.
To add to Orlando, here's an article about undercuts. You should get an idea why it can be hard to convert a metal figure with undercuts to plastic from it, but, if you don't, please ask. It's possible that SD has been fully assured by Chinese manufacturers that they can translate metal to plastic through scanning, but haven't been told the details so overlooked them (bad idea) because they don't have miniatures experience. SD doesn't seem to even be aware of the differences in plastics, since they didn't have an answer at the beginning of the campaign.
fyi, You can just click on a collaborator's name and click comments to see what comments they've written. Here's a shortcut to two of the collaborator comments. Not seeing answers about the plastics yet.
Man, what a downer. Looks like another attempt to revive Confrontation could really go to pot. I sincerely hope that despite all these warning signs that it goes ok for the backers.
Part of the issue concerning timing is that they announced this project back in Feb of 2017. In over one year, they have pushed back the start date of the KS (originally slated for sometime in 2017) and produced -nothing- original except the terrain.
How much does a single mold for HIPS cost to make? Because I thought it was in the 10K+ range and could fit maybe 5-8 minis on there depending on size.
Edit: They keep referring to "later" when talking about HIPS. I don't believe they are looking at this Kickstarter when referring to using HIPS, but to their next project.
Well, I was about to mention how Mythic Battles was planned to combine PVC with ABS (not sure if they ended up doing so), but Sweet beat me to it...
"I do know a lot of old Rackham sculptors have worked for a lot of kickstarters, and other companies. I also know that they sculpted work specifically for use in the material, in the case of Mythic Battles: PVC. Even then those pieces did not hold the same detail as many of the Rackham figures. I'm not saying your product will be bad. I think you can achieve something, but I don't think it will be the same as the original metals. I know you'll try."
So you guys have told me there are thousands of Confrontation miniatures, which means that this may not be the last time you'll be able to get these mini's. Mebbe SD will have another KS for more Confrontation mini's, and allow you to add-on the mini's in this KS as add-ons.
The PDF says their prices are low because the sculpts have already been paid for. But the molds have not, and they're not going to be cheap with multi-piece figures.
And even the terrain won`t look like depicted... but quite some in the comments think this.
The combination of plastics has been done with Panteon and works there, but no way it will catch the detail of Confrontation.
I also know directly from the source that some of the companies they mentioned have been asked to give them quotes but that there is no further contract.
So I would take the working with with a grain of salt.
Well theyre saying the right things, if they manage to get the CMON factory (or the Mythic one if it was a different place) to do PVC + ABD the minis should be decent (if not quite as good as the originals)
and if you want all of them the value should be ok
but as has been said plans are not final contracts, but it's certainly promising compared to what's gone before
I also know directly from the source that some of the companies they mentioned have been asked to give them quotes but that there is no further contract.
Duncan_Idaho's been working with gaming companies for at least a decade as far as I'm aware.
He has more credibility to me than whoever is behind this Confrontation project.
Duncan_Idaho wrote: .I also know directly from the source that some of the companies they mentioned have been asked to give them quotes but that there is no further contract.
Links, please.
I thought this was (sometimes) SOP with KS. You don't know how many units you'll make, you don't know how much funding you will have, so you can't write an actual contract.
You get quotes, you rely on the quotes to determine what materials you can use and the rest of your project, and you pray your manufacturer doesn't have a Death Star and change the terms.
That's part of the risk of a KS, and I've seen KS creators get screwed over by a manufacturer who increases the quote after funds have been collected. Or delays the project because the first run didn't pass QA. Or had some other altercation with the creator.
AFAIK, It's the creator's ability to get on the overseas manufacturer's arse and make sure they do the job they promised. If you backed Cthulhu Wars, you've read their updates with problems they had with overseas manufacturing.
And SD hasn't shown they have experience with this. Even Reaper Miniatures has problems with their overseas manufacturers ("Everything is okay until it isn't."). That's one of my concerns with SD.
.Mikes. wrote: If he's credible he'll be able to tell us the names of these companies then.
Why? Honestly all he's done is provide some reasons to be wary and advised against backing this. The red flags are so riddled thru on this project that nothing surprises me about it but he's just pointed out concerns. If Duncan likely has nda's and contacts and why would he risk them for you. What honestly makes you that special?
I approve 
. I think I’ll pass. I’d want the wolfen just to go into my kings of war/wrath of kings army, but not buying almost 200 figs go get the few I want.
I actually prefer my PPP to my metals 
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