Martel732 wrote: I'm steering away from index-only stuff, as I assume it will be gone in 9th.
Same...I'm a shark. No neck...only moving forward.
Agreed. I popped the Jump Pack off my Priest last night and gave him his old backpack. Thankfully there wasn't any paint on him. I am avoiding Index options with this army since my Guard have a good chunk lf points from it... Still annoyed my 20 Rough Riders are likely to disappear at some point. Those cost a fortune to collect the Tallarn sculpts all new in blister/box.
Pretty much. The FLG guys have been saying for awhile to not be surprised that once all the Codex books are out, the index's will go OOP and with them the rules and ability to play Index only units after that.
Fun for friendly clashes, but even potentiality for competitive scene. Most aggressive 2k thing I could pull from my minis is:
Double vanguard with batallion
Librarian dread
10man jump pack DC 10man jump pack DC 5man vanguard jump pack or assault termies
Lemartes
7man sanguinary guard
Sanguinary ancient
DC dread
Lieutenant with jump pack
DC captain with thunder hammer and jump pack (visions of sanguinius)
3x 5man scouts (melee)
Stormraven gunship (paint in DC colours)
This would be so aggressive list, should force your opponent to think deploying which DC blob might use the Forlorns fury and deep strikers have another threat via 3d6 charge stratagem.
Anti-tank comes from thunder hammers from every jump packed unit.
Sounds crazy to me, although I'm in a happy 100 years birthday Finland mood..
NH Gunsmith wrote: Yea, but I would rather lose a 13 point per model Marine vs an 18 point per model Marine to the Plasma spam that seems to dominate my local play group.
They wont shoot overcharged plasma at your regular space marines with 1 wound. But it is a problem where I play too. Hellblasters, they are so hot right now, Hellblasters. I think I have it figured out though. You need to shoot everything you got at them, take them out ASAP. A unit of 10 Tactical Termies dropping in, shooting everything they got ( 8 storm bolters 2 AC's ) with re rolls to hit isnt a bad idea with the archangels stratagem, then hopefully get a charge off on the same turn.
So i was thinking about other good was to help make the BA alpha strike even better by engaging more units, and then I got to thinking about Eversor assassins. They have 3D6 charge can infiltrate, and have a ton of attacks on the charge, like 8. Seems like a perfect addition to other JP squads coming down to assault turn 1.
If you can get 3 or 4 units into CC turn 1, I think that might be enough....
Does having duel chainswords mean you get 2 additional attacks? If so, I could see a really cheap unit of Death company armed with duel chainswords, backed up by a sang priest and chaplain to actually be quite good for the points, especially if you have a librarian giving them another attack. 6 attacks each on the charge, wounding on 2's, re-rolling hits.
EDIT: Can't seem to arm DC with duel chainswords in Battlescribe. Is that a mistake in the app? Or can you actually not?
bobafett012 wrote: So i was thinking about other good was to help make the BA alpha strike even better by engaging more units, and then I got to thinking about Eversor assassins. They have 3D6 charge can infiltrate, and have a ton of attacks on the charge, like 8. Seems like a perfect addition to other JP squads coming down to assault turn 1.
If you can get 3 or 4 units into CC turn 1, I think that might be enough....
Thought the same but will you not lose the red thirst if you have this guy in the same detachment???
Just putting my first list together from all the reveals and leaks and am not sure I'm reading the Baal predator right..... How is it 100pts base!!!!
Unless I'm missing something the base chassis is exactly the same as a normal predator with the ability to perhaps move an extra inch or two when advancing. The base predator costs 70 and the Baal costs 100, what gives?
Tiberius501 wrote:Can't seem to arm DC with duel chainswords in Battlescribe. Is that a mistake in the app? Or can you actually not?
DC cant use dual chainswords. Thats why company veterans with JP (index version) are better. They have no 6+ FNP, but they also have red thirst. DC has only 1 additional attack when they charge, vets always have +1 attack because of the second chainsword. And they can use SS for 5 pts. Downside is that their unit size is only 5.
WisdomLS wrote:Just putting my first list together from all the reveals and leaks and am not sure I'm reading the Baal predator right..... How is it 100pts base!!!!
Unless I'm missing something the base chassis is exactly the same as a normal predator with the ability to perhaps move an extra inch or two when advancing. The base predator costs 70 and the Baal costs 100, what gives?
Yes, its insane. A razorback with twin ass cannon is 114 and can carry 6 models, the baal pred is 144 with a twin ass cannon and cant carry any models. But you can advance 12"+6"+D6 with the lucifer engine stratagem, and not fire anything because all weapons are heavy
Melissia wrote:Don't forget twin assault cannons also got nerfed, pricewise.
If I had to come up with a reason that the Baal Pred is more expensive, it's gotta be that GW expects the BA Killshot with Baal Preds to be efficient enough damage to warrant the price increase.
Martel732 wrote: That makes kill shot better than I thought lol.
Two autolas + dakka baal, you can select which one needs the buff that turn.
You misunderstood killshot, it has been discussed on dakka, all three predators gain +1 to wound and +1 damage. One predator makes no sense, to expensive, but if you can afford three they will rock with killshot.
Tiberius501 wrote:Can't seem to arm DC with duel chainswords in Battlescribe. Is that a mistake in the app? Or can you actually not?
DC cant use dual chainswords. Thats why company veterans with JP (index version) are better. They have no 6+ FNP, but they also have red thirst. DC has only 1 additional attack when they charge, vets always have +1 attack because of the second chainsword. And they can use SS for 5 pts. Downside is that their unit size is only 5.
I would contend that there is a few more downsides than just the squad size. They can't use strategems that affect DC only, so no forlorn hope, A free move plus charge 24-38" on turn 1 is pretty good, Most, if not all of Lemartes abilities affect DC only, and IMO, i think he, along with DC are going to be a key component of successful BA melee forces. Astorath also has some DC only ability. You mentioned the 6+ FnP, which i contend is pretty lack luster, should have been 5+ for their cost. I don't know how much the extra attack is going to matter too much just because the DC should be wiping out whatever they charge, specially if you unleash rage them, that's 5 attacks each, or 50 attacks on the charge with a 10 man squad, with +1 to wound, and likely re-rolls to hit off Lemartes, i mean, not much is going to survive that anyways.
Bremon wrote: Does Killshot affect one Pred or all 3? Never used enough Preds to need to worry about it lol.
Edit: I understood it as P5freak does.
This is why grammar is important!
It says "all the predators' attacks." The apostrophe is the important thing here. Anytime an apostrophe comes after the s, it is both possessive and plural, therefore it is referring to more than one predator gaining the bonus. If it were written "all the predator's attacks" then it would be different.
Bremon wrote: Does Killshot affect one Pred or all 3? Never used enough Preds to need to worry about it lol.
Edit: I understood it as P5freak does.
This is why grammar is important!
It says "all the predators' attacks." The apostrophe is the important thing here. Anytime an apostrophe comes after the s, it is both possessive and plural, therefore it is referring to more than one predator gaining the bonus. If it were written "all the predator's attacks" then it would be different.
Tiberius501 wrote:Can't seem to arm DC with duel chainswords in Battlescribe. Is that a mistake in the app? Or can you actually not?
DC cant use dual chainswords. Thats why company veterans with JP (index version) are better. They have no 6+ FNP, but they also have red thirst. DC has only 1 additional attack when they charge, vets always have +1 attack because of the second chainsword. And they can use SS for 5 pts. Downside is that their unit size is only 5.
I would contend that there is a few more downsides than just the squad size. They can't use strategems that affect DC only, so no forlorn hope, A free move plus charge 24-38" on turn 1 is pretty good, Most, if not all of Lemartes abilities affect DC only, and IMO, i think he, along with DC are going to be a key component of successful BA melee forces. Astorath also has some DC only ability. You mentioned the 6+ FnP, which i contend is pretty lack luster, should have been 5+ for their cost. I don't know how much the extra attack is going to matter too much just because the DC should be wiping out whatever they charge, specially if you unleash rage them, that's 5 attacks each, or 50 attacks on the charge with a 10 man squad, with +1 to wound, and likely re-rolls to hit off Lemartes, i mean, not much is going to survive that anyways.
I think Lemartes and the Death Company are going to be important for a melee focused Blood Angels army, but I really think that the power of Vanguard Vets and a Relic Jump Pack Librarian is also going to be a key element for their points costs. Our models still die like normal Marines, even with the points drops our models are still very expensive.
bobafett012 wrote:
I would contend that there is a few more downsides than just the squad size. They can't use strategems that affect DC only, so no forlorn hope, A free move plus charge 24-38" on turn 1 is pretty good, Most, if not all of Lemartes abilities affect DC only, and IMO, i think he, along with DC are going to be a key component of successful BA melee forces. Astorath also has some DC only ability. You mentioned the 6+ FnP, which i contend is pretty lack luster, should have been 5+ for their cost. I don't know how much the extra attack is going to matter too much just because the DC should be wiping out whatever they charge, specially if you unleash rage them, that's 5 attacks each, or 50 attacks on the charge with a 10 man squad, with +1 to wound, and likely re-rolls to hit off Lemartes, i mean, not much is going to survive that anyways.
Well, there is no need for forlorn, if vets have JP and can deepstrike. Saves 2 CPs. A chaplain for 90 pts. can partially replace lemartes. He is not as good, but costs 40 pts. less. Keep in mind that black rage is only 1pt. A veteran is 16, DC is 17. Getting a 6+ FNP and +1 attack on charge for 1 pt is really not bad.
DC can be buffed like hell, but it takes a lot of points. 15 models DC are ~300 pts. A sang priest with lemartes and a librarian are another ~300 pts. You kill whatever you charge, but then what ? You are standing there, your opponent will focus fire on your DC and probably kill them all.
Raulengrin wrote:
It says "all the predators' attacks." The apostrophe is the important thing here. Anytime an apostrophe comes after the s, it is both possessive and plural, therefore it is referring to more than one predator gaining the bonus. If it were written "all the predator's attacks" then it would be different.
Unless its another screwup by GW. They are well known for bad choice of words. I wouldnt be surprised if they misplaced the apostrophe.
Bremon wrote: Does Killshot affect one Pred or all 3? Never used enough Preds to need to worry about it lol.
Edit: I understood it as P5freak does.
This is why grammar is important!
It says "all the predators' attacks." The apostrophe is the important thing here. Anytime an apostrophe comes after the s, it is both possessive and plural, therefore it is referring to more than one predator gaining the bonus. If it were written "all the predator's attacks" then it would be different.
Part of the Killshot says +1 to damage rolls. Would this affect the assault cannon and heavy bolter? Their damage is static, so you don’t really roll for it
Bremon wrote: Does Killshot affect one Pred or all 3? Never used enough Preds to need to worry about it lol.
Edit: I understood it as P5freak does.
This is why grammar is important!
It says "all the predators' attacks." The apostrophe is the important thing here. Anytime an apostrophe comes after the s, it is both possessive and plural, therefore it is referring to more than one predator gaining the bonus. If it were written "all the predator's attacks" then it would be different.
Part of the Killshot says +1 to damage rolls. Would this affect the assault cannon and heavy bolter? Their damage is static, so you don’t really roll for it
Yes, it would affect damage from the assault cannon and heavy bolter, so +1 to wound and damage rolls for 3 Baal Preds for 1CP as long as they're targeting monsters or vehicles.
A harrowing amount of potential damage, and, like I said, about the only reason I can think of for GW to keep the Baal Pred at it's elevated points cost.
Bremon wrote: Does Killshot affect one Pred or all 3? Never used enough Preds to need to worry about it lol.
Edit: I understood it as P5freak does.
This is why grammar is important!
It says "all the predators' attacks." The apostrophe is the important thing here. Anytime an apostrophe comes after the s, it is both possessive and plural, therefore it is referring to more than one predator gaining the bonus. If it were written "all the predator's attacks" then it would be different.
Part of the Killshot says +1 to damage rolls. Would this affect the assault cannon and heavy bolter? Their damage is static, so you don’t really roll for it
Yes, it would affect damage from the assault cannon and heavy bolter, so +1 to wound and damage rolls for 3 Baal Preds for 1CP as long as they're targeting monsters or vehicles.
A harrowing amount of potential damage, and, like I said, about the only reason I can think of for GW to keep the Baal Pred at it's elevated points cost.
It does make sense, the damage potential of the Baal Pred is actually pretty scary with that strategem.
The Lucifer Pattern Engines begins to make more sense...if you have 3 Baal Preds attempting to get in positions to gun down the enemy, at some point terrain, units, etc are going to get in the way and you MAY need to have one predator move the extra distance to keep pace so the Killshot strat continues to be useable. Not saying it's something that'll always happen (hell, most of the time you're going to lose a Predator before you're actually out of position) but it's a way to use an otherwise throw-away stratagem.
The Lucifer Pattern Engines begins to make more sense...if you have 3 Baal Preds attempting to get in positions to gun down the enemy, at some point terrain, units, etc are going to get in the way and you MAY need to have one predator move the extra distance to keep pace so the Killshot strat continues to be useable. Not saying it's something that'll always happen (hell, most of the time you're going to lose a Predator before you're actually out of position) but it's a way to use an otherwise throw-away stratagem.
Except you advance with the lucifer pattern engines, so you cant fire any (baal) pred weapons, they are all heavy. Except the stormbolter, which you cant fire either, because its not assault
Btw, the killshot stratagem also works on hunter seeker missiles.
p5freak wrote: Well, there is no need for forlorn, if vets have JP and can deepstrike. Saves 2 CPs.
Forlorn hope is absolutely a useful strategem. On the army list i'm looking at building right now, my issue is I have more DSing units than units starting on the board. Forlorn Hope is a perfect way for me to rectify that situation.
p5freak wrote: A chaplain for 90 pts. can partially replace lemartes. He is not as good, but costs 40 pts. less.
Yes, a regular chaplain can, we're splitting hairs now because in my list, not only is he a combat beast (6 attacks on the charge with a deadlier crozius), he allows my DC to re-roll charges, and i think i'm going to bring 2 units of 10. In your version, your probably using the decent of angels strat to get your charge off so your using 2CPs there.
p5freak wrote: DC can be buffed like hell, but it takes a lot of points. 15 models DC are ~300 pts. A sang priest with lemartes and a librarian are another ~300 pts. You kill whatever you charge, but then what ? You are standing there, your opponent will focus fire on your DC and probably kill them all.
First off, I don't think running 1 huge blob of overkill is a smart idea. I'd much rather run multiple smaller squads. That allows more chances to get your charges off to kill or tie units up, specially if they are near Lemartes, on top of which, when your striking with 3 to 5 attacks on the charge per model including the power weapons in the squad, you don't need 15 guys, that pointless and just over kill. Maybe 2 10 man squads or 3 5 man squads is where i think i want to be.
To add tho this, the whole premise of my particular list is to get AT LEAST 3 squads, but hopefully more like 4 or 5 first turn charges off. I could be wrong, but I believe if you can accomplish that, you are squads won't be able to be focus fired after they do their damage and the enemy is either dead or falling back because not only have you got 3 or 4 more units sitting right there in their face, but you likely just wiped out a nice chunk of their army.
This, for me, was the real issue with BAJP lists for a long time. You were not survivable enough to get across the table with enough models to do enough damage, and you could really only charge off DS in a few corner cases. That all changes with this book. From the Wings psychic power, to Forlorn hope, decent of angels, and wings of fire(?), you are now able to reliably (I believe), drop units in and get enough charges to gash them and still have enough stuff left for your beta strikes.
I've almost got a list done that I think might be a fairly competitive list that doesn't use all typical BS like stormravens, hellblasters, razorbacks etc. To be honest, I haven't been this excited about blood angels since 4 or 5th edition.
I'm curious how that list looks, you run into problems when your opponent uses area denial, your 3-5 squads need space. The problem of rolling a 9 with two dice remains, even with lemartes rerolling charges. Sure, you can use descent of angels, but only once per turn. Along with forlorn thats 4 CP gone.
The Lucifer Pattern Engines begins to make more sense...if you have 3 Baal Preds attempting to get in positions to gun down the enemy, at some point terrain, units, etc are going to get in the way and you MAY need to have one predator move the extra distance to keep pace so the Killshot strat continues to be useable. Not saying it's something that'll always happen (hell, most of the time you're going to lose a Predator before you're actually out of position) but it's a way to use an otherwise throw-away stratagem.
Except you advance with the lucifer pattern engines, so you cant fire any (baal) pred weapons, they are all heavy. Except the stormbolter, which you cant fire either, because its not assault
Btw, the killshot stratagem also works on hunter seeker missiles.
I understand all of this. The one pred that had to move using the Lucifer Pattern Engines wouldn't be able to shoot, but the others would. It's only a valid thing to do if it makes sense, of course...
As for the enemy just removing a predator to make Killshot null in void, I think we all knew that...I even eluded to it in my parenthetical.
I understand all of this. The one pred that had to move using the Lucifer Pattern Engines wouldn't be able to shoot, but the others would. It's only a valid thing to do if it makes sense, of course...
As for the enemy just removing a predator to make Killshot null in void, I think we all knew that...I even eluded to it in my parenthetical.
Good thing GW reduced the cost of a techmarine. He can repair D3 wounds on a vehicle.
Played my first game with the new codex tonight, against deathguard, neither list was super competitive as it was a friendly pickup game.
A few things I tried out and what I took away:
I used a sanguinary ancient as my warlord, gave him the banner and the WL trait for +1 damage on his powerfist - He was pretty boss, tanked wounds, moved around well, put the smack down on most things as he always gets to reroll to hit and wound.
Play some sang guard with him - now they are cheaper and can stand near the banner to increase their survivability they proved to be a much more viable choice.
Used multiple drop squads of DC with Lemartes, they mulched through alot of poxwalkers but went down quick to anything that focused on them. Still a great unit but still needs to get to combat intact which isn't always easy.
Mephiston - A beast as ever but doesn't have enough attacks, will be taking the quickening next time.
Shooty assault squads, I took one with two meltaguns and double melta pistol and one with two flamers and double flame pistol - both were great! Jumping out of combat to get clutch shots in where they were needed, good when charged and when charging. Cheap multiuse units that I will definitely be using again.
Scouts with knife - more dangerous than your oponent will think, our best troop choice.
One general issue I ran into was with all our buff characters and getting split up when one fails a charge, happened a couple of times and it was a pain :-/
Overall I'm really happy, our "chapter tactic" is very powerful and comes into play alot whilst also encouraging an aggressive progressive playstyle :-)
Mephiston - A beast as ever but doesn't have enough attacks, will be taking the quickening next time.
Most definitely. I think you can't use Mephy as a army buff. Take wings, quickening, and one other power of your choice. He can also use the red rampage strategem to get D3 more attacks as well. Buff him up, and send him in. I would have liked to see him get 5 attacks base, certainly because he gets no re-rolls at all so with 4 attacks, you might only end up with 2 or 3 wounds when it's all said and done with, needs more. Here's a question for someone with the book, is there anything that stops, say Meph, from unleashing rage and quickening on himself to get 4+1+D3 attacks?
WisdomLS wrote: Scouts with knife - more dangerous than your oponent will think, our best troop choice.
I was thinking intercessors with Stalker bolt guns might be our best troop now. take them in 5's, they have 2 wounds a piece, and have 2 attacks base, give the sarg a power sword, sit them on an objective, hopefully in cover for a 2+ save. If my numbers are correct, 5 intercessors with stalkers are 100, and 5 scouts with sniper rifles and camo cloaks are 90, so in that case i think the intercessors are actually the better buy but we'll see.
WisdomLS wrote: One general issue I ran into was with all our buff characters and getting split up when one fails a charge, happened a couple of times and it was a pain :-/
Have to always leave a tail for your squad to stay in that 6" range. Keep in mind, you only need to be within 1" for CC, not base to base, so just keep your squad 1" back from the enemy, then all your guys only need to be within 1" of another of your guys that can strike. So, they are back 1", from the opponents unit, plus their base is about an 1", plus another 1" between your guys, and another 1" on the base should pretty much put you into 6" aura range. I have to do that for my Deathwing terminators to make sure they are within belials aura or the banners aura.
WisdomLS wrote: Overall I'm really happy, our "chapter tactic" is very powerful and comes into play alot whilst also encouraging an aggressive progressive playstyle :-)
Me too. At first I didn't realize the magnitude of the red thirst. It's so much better than a straight strength buff, plus with all the ways we have to get into CC off DS now, i'm very pleased at least without any playtesting yet.
Point of order: unless it's been changed in the new codex (And it very well may have been), Intercessor Sergeants cannot take power weapons. Only chainswords, sadly.
It was rather frustrating to say the least, as I had converted a power sword onto my intercessor sergeant and had to swap it to a chainsword.
Red__Thirst wrote: Point of order: unless it's been changed in the new codex (And it very well may have been), Intercessor Sergeants cannot take power weapons. Only chainswords, sadly.
It was rather frustrating to say the least, as I had converted a power sword onto my intercessor sergeant and had to swap it to a chainsword.
C'est la vie.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
they can in the space marine codex, so i would hope they get it in the BA codex. That's a pretty standard upgrade, so nothing out of the ordinary, but to be honest, that's of little consequence if he can't. They are really just there to sit on objectives and shoot their -2 AP bolters.
Red__Thirst wrote: Point of order: unless it's been changed in the new codex (And it very well may have been), Intercessor Sergeants cannot take power weapons. Only chainswords, sadly.
It was rather frustrating to say the least, as I had converted a power sword onto my intercessor sergeant and had to swap it to a chainsword.
C'est la vie.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
they can in the space marine codex, so i would hope they get it in the BA codex. That's a pretty standard upgrade, so nothing out of the ordinary, but to be honest, that's of little consequence if he can't. They are really just there to sit on objectives and shoot their -2 AP bolters.
Have book in hand. They do not have power sword option.
Mephiston or Sanguinor would be the two I wold pick from. Nothing against Dante. He's pretty excellent for sure, but until he gets some Bonus CP action for his points I feel like the other two are stronger.
I'd rather run Mephiston for anti psyker ability (Denying more than 1 power a turn is pretty clutch) and beefy Psyker options (3 ppowers a turn.) I'd run him with a pure offensive loadout: Unleash Rage, Quickening, and Wings of Sanguinius (Or replace Unleash Rage with Shield of Sanguinius for added durability/defensive option). He's faster than either Dante or the Sanguinor with Wings of Sanguinius active (7" move without advancing, then 12" move in the Psychic phase, then 2D6 charge with a Reroll on the Charge dice available). He's your monster beatstick option.
The Sanguinor works great if you're going for the extra attack stack buff on multiple squads with Librarians further amplifying that on one squad with an Unleash Rage cast. He's also a stout beatstick too, but without the psychich defense and shenanigans going for him, though his Aura is amazing and makes up for that in my opinion.
In order of usefulness: Mephiston, then Sanguinor, then Dante. They're all good options, but Mephiston tkes the cake in my opinion.
Red__Thirst wrote: Mephiston or Sanguinor would be the two I wold pick from. Nothing against Dante. He's pretty excellent for sure, but until he gets some Bonus CP action for his points I feel like the other two are stronger.
I'd rather run Mephiston for anti psyker ability (Denying more than 1 power a turn is pretty clutch) and beefy Psyker options (3 ppowers a turn.) I'd run him with a pure offensive loadout: Unleash Rage, Quickening, and Wings of Sanguinius (Or replace Unleash Rage with Shield of Sanguinius for added durability/defensive option). He's faster than either Dante or the Sanguinor with Wings of Sanguinius active (7" move without advancing, then 12" move in the Psychic phase, then 2D6 charge with a Reroll on the Charge dice available). He's your monster beatstick option.
The Sanguinor works great if you're going for the extra attack stack buff on multiple squads with Librarians further amplifying that on one squad with an Unleash Rage cast. He's also a stout beatstick too, but without the psychich defense and shenanigans going for him, though his Aura is amazing and makes up for that in my opinion.
In order of usefulness: Mephiston, then Sanguinor, then Dante. They're all good options, but Mephiston tkes the cake in my opinion.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Thanks for that! Mephiston does look pretty good. He is a pretty trivial points increase from a Jump Pack Librarian to a pretty terrifying assassin.
What do you guys think of running a list that a little different. Trying to mix in a little of that BA flavor, but using some of the awesome space marine strategems we got.
2k Blood Angels: 10CP 14 deployments.
Options for CP: DC upgrade on Captain, Baal Pred movement, Autohit Whirldwinds, Kill Shot Baal Preds
Thanks for that! Mephiston does look pretty good. He is a pretty trivial points increase from a Jump Pack Librarian to a pretty terrifying assassin.
You know it! I'm still working on my Mephiston here to join my Librarian Dreadnought and jump pack librarian for a triple threat of brain pain goodness.
With quickening and Unleash Rage on him he turns into an absolute blender. He'll usually take out whatever he charges or maul it to the point of it seriously contemplating the life choices that brought it to that point.
The only way to improve him is to keep him near a captain for rerolls of 1's that inevitably come up on those to-hit dice.
Don't forget about red rampage on him, that's another D3 attacks.
I'm thinking of running triple flyer in my JP assault list. I used to run triple AC/LC preds for anti vehicle/monster, but it seems like another fast, super mobile gun platform to use as my anti-vehicle needs would be perfect.
I'd like to run 3 Xiphons but they just went up by a good margin in points and I don't know if I can get 3 in now, so that leaves 3 Storm Talons, while I like them, they are no where near as good against vehicles as the Xiphon.
Coyote81 wrote: What do you guys think of running a list that a little different. Trying to mix in a little of that BA flavor, but using some of the awesome space marine strategems we got.
2k Blood Angels: 10CP 14 deployments.
Options for CP: DC upgrade on Captain, Baal Pred movement, Autohit Whirldwinds, Kill Shot Baal Preds
Tiberius501 wrote: Has Astorath changed in the codex? I love his model so I’ve always wanted to use him but I’ve never found him to be particularly worth it
Nothing against Astorath, but I've always preferred Lemartes over him. I do see the usefulness of Astorath, and his model is very cool for sure, but Lemartes seems to be just hands down better. I've wrecked entire squads with Lemartes. His volume of attacks and the Blood Crozius being such an absolute (literal!) beatstick of a weapon just combine to make for an extremely dangerous combo.
Now that he gets +1 to wounding rolls means he'll be even more dangerous. He'll wound most big tyranid gribblies on a 3+ or 4+ on the charge. Pretty heinous for sure.
Tiberius501 wrote: Has Astorath changed in the codex? I love his model so I’ve always wanted to use him but I’ve never found him to be particularly worth it
His axe is now S+2 instead S+1. Thats all.
That’s quite good. Have a sanguinary priest nearby and he’s wounding most vehicles on 3’s. I’m happy with that and his Mass of Doom seems quite swish bang for a tasty charge phase. But he totally doesn’t achieve the number of attacks Lamartes does which is a shame. But a librarian can almost get him there haha. #TryingToConvinceMyself
So here the double Battalion list I plan on running Saturday, it is pretty much the same list I have been using, except it has an LT instead of Chaplain, and the Assault Marines upgraded to Vanguard Veterans.
However, I am wondering if Mephiston's Warlord trait is worth making him the Warlord so he always strikes first, or if making the LT or Priest the Warlord to give them Soulwarden for the fourth attempt at denying a power would be better. Also, if running both Mephiston and the Jump Pack Libby, what powers would you give them? The Libby will be dropping in with the Vanguard Vets, and Mephiston will be deploying the in Razorback with the LT.
Coyote81 wrote: What do you guys think of running a list that a little different. Trying to mix in a little of that BA flavor, but using some of the awesome space marine strategems we got.
2k Blood Angels: 10CP 14 deployments.
Options for CP: DC upgrade on Captain, Baal Pred movement, Autohit Whirldwinds, Kill Shot Baal Preds
Frozocrone wrote: Took the plunge and got 15 Death Company. They seem like they're going to be fun in the new Codex.
(also the Death company box with the dread and chaplain was just screaming out to me...)
Time to make a 1k list.
I've got to paint more Death Company. I just got another box (My 3rd) to pair with my recently acquired Death Company Dreadnought. I'm leaning toward doing a 10 to 12 man Jump Pack equipped squad and then a 10 man squad armed with mostly boltguns that will either ride in a Rhino, or possibly arrive via Drop Pod (depending on what I wind up doing with the list, once I get my hands on the codex this weekend).
The tentative plan is to move the jump pack JP squad up using the forlorn fury move for 2 CP, or have them deep strike in and use Descent of Angels for 2 CP, depending. I'll have Lemartes deep strike in as well with them, and the drop pod land adjacent so that the squad is also within 6" of Lemartes. That's ~20 Death Company + Lemartes on a flank with re-rolling charges on all of them at the very least, and one squad also possibly having 3D6 charge range. Liberal amounts of Thunder Hammers and Power Fists/Power Weapons intermixed in as well with an inferno pistol or two floating in also.
I think it'll be fun. Looking forward to hearing how the 15 man squad treats you there Frozocrone.
For me I see Lemartes gives rerolls to charges and Astorath gives anything else really and that's it, it's gotta be Lemartes every time. The difference in odds between having a full reroll+optional single die reroll vs just the single die reroll is enormous (because, as you'll remember from middle school, having zeroes in any percentage calculation really wrecks your average)
Frozocrone wrote: Took the plunge and got 15 Death Company. They seem like they're going to be fun in the new Codex.
(also the Death company box with the dread and chaplain was just screaming out to me...)
Time to make a 1k list.
I've got to paint more Death Company. I just got another box (My 3rd) to pair with my recently acquired Death Company Dreadnought. I'm leaning toward doing a 10 to 12 man Jump Pack equipped squad and then a 10 man squad armed with mostly boltguns that will either ride in a Rhino, or possibly arrive via Drop Pod (depending on what I wind up doing with the list, once I get my hands on the codex this weekend).
The tentative plan is to move the jump pack JP squad up using the forlorn fury move for 2 CP, or have them deep strike in and use Descent of Angels for 2 CP, depending. I'll have Lemartes deep strike in as well with them, and the drop pod land adjacent so that the squad is also within 6" of Lemartes. That's ~20 Death Company + Lemartes on a flank with re-rolling charges on all of them at the very least, and one squad also possibly having 3D6 charge range. Liberal amounts of Thunder Hammers and Power Fists/Power Weapons intermixed in as well with an inferno pistol or two floating in also.
I think it'll be fun. Looking forward to hearing how the 15 man squad treats you there Frozocrone.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Exactly what I was thinking! Either move the 15 man blob up T1 or DS 3 units of 5 in.
I've not seen the Codex but hoping that Death Company have something against Bravery checks now. Still including a Chaplain (don't have Lemartes right now). I'm happy the Inferno Pistol got cheaper in Chapter Approved, love the flavour behind it (even if Plasma is usually better due to range). One of the reasons why BA are my favourite Chapter.
Hopefully my current collection (bar a few bits and pieces) will be under 1k, if not I'll make some adjustments (but I have Chapter approved so it looks like I'm going to be OK).
Martel732 wrote: If you are running 15 DC, you need to take Astorath over Lemartes, unless Lemartes is giving the immunity to battle shock now.
True, that could be useful. But I think I'd still lean towards Lemartes since in a situation where I really need the immunity, and LD9 and a re-roll is not enough, and theres enough DC still alive that I don't lose the last 1-3 guys, I think i'd spend the 2cp. Though of course you can use Astorath and just commit to doing the 3d6 charge with them if you're going with a single big beefy unit of DC (which is most likely the best tacically flexible arrangement because of the once-per stratagem and psychic power rule).
They gave us some fun strats to get our assault elements into combat when and where we want, but I feel focusing too much on doing so is at our detriment. I'm going to force myself to still play with a decent firebase and shoehorn in the assault elements, as I'm having a hard time making an all out assault list that feels capable of winning most games.
For example, I could spend a ton of points turning a 15man death company squad into a super heavy glass hammer, or...I could also keep them as cheap as possible and use the 3D6 charge strat to engage as much of my opponents forces as possible in an effort to tie up his gunline / forces.
One thing that Descent of Angels does that is cool with a 15-man Squad of Death Company is that they can surround something if they make a huge charge. That way, if they have a few special pistols in there, they can blast away in the following turn.
casvalremdeikun wrote: One thing that Descent of Angels does that is cool with a 15-man Squad of Death Company is that they can surround something if they make a huge charge. That way, if they have a few special pistols in there, they can blast away in the following turn.
I don't think much, if anything, is going to survive a 15 man DC charge, specially if they have any buffs what so ever.
What's everyone's thought's on the index equipment? Is it worth keeping them or accepting the inevitable of loss of those options in the future and planning accordingly now?
casvalremdeikun wrote: One thing that Descent of Angels does that is cool with a 15-man Squad of Death Company is that they can surround something if they make a huge charge. That way, if they have a few special pistols in there, they can blast away in the following turn.
I don't think much, if anything, is going to survive a 15 man DC charge, specially if they have any buffs what so ever.
Keep in mind that 15 model DC with JP naked is 300 pts. They cannot kill a 130 pts. predator in one turn unbuffed. You would need to add a lot of power weapons and/or 1-2 buffing characters to do that. Thats ~550 pts. to kill a 130 pts. model.
why would you be charging a Predator with A) no special weapons, and B) no buffing character with DC? If your using DC for that, without the proper equipment or buffs, your doing it wrong.
You should have certain units/models in your list to take on certain things. Melta squads, las cannons, TH, power fists etc for killing vehicles, mass attacks for killing screens, infantry, etc.
Death Company taking morale damage is a real issue and I don't think you can afford to use 2 CP for morale immunity. You want to spend your CP on stratagems like Descent of Angels and fighting a second time. If morale turns out to be a consistent issue I would rather bring a JP lieutenant with the morale immunity warlord trait.
bobafett012 wrote: why would you be charging a Predator with A) no special weapons, and B) no buffing character with DC? If your using DC for that, without the proper equipment or buffs, your doing it wrong.
You said "I don't think much, if anything, is going to survive a 15 man DC charge, specially if they have any buffs what so ever." Even with special weapons and/or buffing characters you end up somewhere at 500+ points to kill a 130 pt. predator in one turn. DC is not as strong as you (or others in here) think they are.
Morale an issue? Bring a Sanguinary Ancient with minimal upgrades (Angelus Boltgun, and a Powerfist would be my choice). Autopass Morale and get the bonus re-roll to-wound rolls of 1 like a Lt. No relic? Give it the relic standard too, if you want.
Getting to use Lemartes's leadership 9 for any DC in 6" of him is pretty good, and the re-roll from ATSKNF will help mitigate some of the losses. I do agree that using 2 precious CP's to auto-pass a morale save could be worth it, but as hungry for CP as our army is, that would be an emergency option in the event something abjectly horrible happens and you're all but guaranteed to lose most if not all of your remaining Death Company to even a good to fair morale save.
I plan on running the Sanguinary Ancient along side the Death Company and/or a Command/Company Veterans squad or Sanguinary Guard. Mitigate the morale losses from the jump without issue.
Tiberius501 wrote: What's the best way to loadout a 15 man DC unit? I'd love to take that + Astorath and his Erelim (using Sanguinary Guard stats)
I would recommend a couple of Thunder Hammers to deal with big multi-wound models. You might be able to get away with power fists at a pinch if you are short on points but the fixed 3 damage of the THs is very good. I would also chuck in a couple of power swords since they are cheap and AP-3 which is handy for dealing with TEQs quickly.
The rest should probably take bolters and chainswords for maximum weight of fire/attacks. Even against Terminators your opponent will be rolling so many saves that a fair few 1s will turn up.
bobafett012 wrote: why would you be charging a Predator with A) no special weapons, and B) no buffing character with DC? If your using DC for that, without the proper equipment or buffs, your doing it wrong.
You said "I don't think much, if anything, is going to survive a 15 man DC charge, specially if they have any buffs what so ever." Even with special weapons and/or buffing characters you end up somewhere at 500+ points to kill a 130 pt. predator in one turn. DC is not as strong as you (or others in here) think they are.
I'm sure the guy that's wanting to run the 15 man DC squad isn't dumb enough to charge something that they can't kill, and my comment in that perspective is that is there things they would want to charge, aren't going to be alive long enough to stay in combat. Clearly, they aren't going to take down a Titan in that configuration, so you wouldn't charge something like that. If they all had thunder hammers, inferno pistols and were backed up by Lemartes, then maybe you would.
We'll have to agree to disagree about DC not being that powerful, then again, we'll have to agree to disagree about a lot of stuff. I don't agree with Vets over DC, a regular chaplain over Lemartes, there being no need for forlorn hope. Based on the all the youtube videos i've seen from some of the competitive and non competitive players, like frontline gaming, winterseo, striking scorpion, miniwargaming, the long war, forge the narrative etc, they are all saying the opposite of what your saying, so in that regard, I think i'm on the right track with my army.
Tiberius501 wrote: What's the best way to loadout a 15 man DC unit? I'd love to take that + Astorath and his Erelim (using Sanguinary Guard stats)
I would recommend a couple of Thunder Hammers to deal with big multi-wound models. You might be able to get away with power fists at a pinch if you are short on points but the fixed 3 damage of the THs is very good. I would also chuck in a couple of power swords since they are cheap and AP-3 which is handy for dealing with TEQs quickly.
The rest should probably take bolters and chainswords for maximum weight of fire/attacks. Even against Terminators your opponent will be rolling so many saves that a fair few 1s will turn up.
Awesome thanks, I'll go with that. I'll definitely find the points for two thunder hammers over the fists and I'll probably take 3 swords
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red__Thirst wrote: Morale an issue? Bring a Sanguinary Ancient with minimal upgrades (Angelus Boltgun, and a Powerfist would be my choice). Autopass Morale and get the bonus re-roll to-wound rolls of 1 like a Lt. No relic? Give it the relic standard too, if you want.
Getting to use Lemartes's leadership 9 for any DC in 6" of him is pretty good, and the re-roll from ATSKNF will help mitigate some of the losses. I do agree that using 2 precious CP's to auto-pass a morale save could be worth it, but as hungry for CP as our army is, that would be an emergency option in the event something abjectly horrible happens and you're all but guaranteed to lose most if not all of your remaining Death Company to even a good to fair morale save.
I plan on running the Sanguinary Ancient along side the Death Company and/or a Command/Company Veterans squad or Sanguinary Guard. Mitigate the morale losses from the jump without issue.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Unfortunately I'm fairly certain the Sanguinary Ancient only gives a +1 buff to leadership now instead of flat ignoring leadership. Which is lame, but still handy.
Really?? I missed that COMPLETELY. Hrm. Still, with Lemartes, and the Ancient you have LD:10 (using Lemartes's LD:9, + 1) which is pretty good. Where was this spoiled?
I'll be curious to see it. Will be getting the book tomorrow to check myself at least.
Tiberius501 wrote: What's the best way to loadout a 15 man DC unit? I'd love to take that + Astorath and his Erelim (using Sanguinary Guard stats)
I would recommend a couple of Thunder Hammers to deal with big multi-wound models. You might be able to get away with power fists at a pinch if you are short on points but the fixed 3 damage of the THs is very good. I would also chuck in a couple of power swords since they are cheap and AP-3 which is handy for dealing with TEQs quickly.
The rest should probably take bolters and chainswords for maximum weight of fire/attacks. Even against Terminators your opponent will be rolling so many saves that a fair few 1s will turn up.
Awesome thanks, I'll go with that. I'll definitely find the points for two thunder hammers over the fists and I'll probably take 3 swords
Axes are a great options too. only 1 point more than swords, 1 less AP but they are going to wound on 2+ with the red thirst instead of 3+, so fairly good option as well. If you have a priest, nearby, then swords all the way, if not, axe>swords specially vs MEQ.
Tiberius501 wrote: What's the best way to loadout a 15 man DC unit? I'd love to take that + Astorath and his Erelim (using Sanguinary Guard stats)
I would recommend a couple of Thunder Hammers to deal with big multi-wound models. You might be able to get away with power fists at a pinch if you are short on points but the fixed 3 damage of the THs is very good. I would also chuck in a couple of power swords since they are cheap and AP-3 which is handy for dealing with TEQs quickly.
The rest should probably take bolters and chainswords for maximum weight of fire/attacks. Even against Terminators your opponent will be rolling so many saves that a fair few 1s will turn up.
Awesome thanks, I'll go with that. I'll definitely find the points for two thunder hammers over the fists and I'll probably take 3 swords
Axes are a great options too. only 1 point more than swords, 1 less AP but they are going to wound on 2+ with the red thirst instead of 3+, so fairly good option as well. If you have a priest, nearby, then swords all the way, if not, axe>swords specially vs MEQ.
Yeah I was thinking axes but I'm going to have a priest I think so that I can buff the chainswords as well and also allow the hammers to wound basically anything on 2's too
So I'm not sure if anyone else has heard this or not, but I got the whole "A friend of a friend told me" treatment about how Malakim Phoros (FW Lamenter's character) is supposed to have the Chapter Master rule and keyword. I fired of an email to FW team myself a few minutes ago about that and a few other things I had questions about. I'm just curious if anyone else had heard the same. If so, having a pocket Guilliman for my boys in check'n'yellow seems kind of huge. I'm just trying to figure out the best method of deployment for him, and what to pair him with. Initial thought for me has been to stick him in a stormraven along with a priest and 10 vanguard/company vets + a dread of some sort on the back.. But that was before the supposed CM rule revelation. Should I use him as a gunline buff, or use him as a magical blender-buffer for frontline units?
I ordered the digital version. Still having an issue finding a few points values here or there. Can anyone tell me if the sanguinary ancient pays for a chapter banner (and therefore standard of sacrifice?)
Tpiddy wrote: I ordered the digital version. Still having an issue finding a few points values here or there. Can anyone tell me if the sanguinary ancient pays for a chapter banner (and therefore standard of sacrifice?)
The Standard doesn't cost points. It is factored into the price of the unit.
So I normally play Grey Knights, but I'm really interested in running a split GK/BA force of 750 points each. You guys are talking about Death Company which is GREAT cause I'm torn between them and Sanguinary Guard.
Can anyone suggest loadouts or opine on the differences between the two? They're both strong but is it just me or does either unit seem kinda squish? I'm worried either unit would land, kill something on a charge, then immediately get shot off the board.
If it helps, the GK side is 3 Grandmaster Dreadknights and a unit of Paladins in a Supreme Command Detachment. I'd like to keep them the Warlord too for the re-roll charge trait.
Audustum wrote: So I normally play Grey Knights, but I'm really interested in running a split GK/BA force of 750 points each. You guys are talking about Death Company which is GREAT cause I'm torn between them and Sanguinary Guard.
Can anyone suggest loadouts or opine on the differences between the two? They're both strong but is it just me or does either unit seem kinda squish? I'm worried either unit would land, kill something on a charge, then immediately get shot off the board.
If it helps, the GK side is 3 Grandmaster Dreadknights and a unit of Paladins in a Supreme Command Detachment. I'd like to keep them the Warlord too for the re-roll charge trait.
If your plan is to just drop in a single unit of DC or Sang Guard, of course they're likely to just be shot off the board the following turn. It's when you can get multiple charges off that makes it tough for your opponent to deal with them all, and i think that's where BA will excel. You could probably get 2 10 man squads of DC with some weapon upgrades, and Lemartes for under 600 points. Maybe add in a libby with JP, with Shield of sanguinius, and unleash rage and you've got a buffer for those DC as well and you well under 750 points.
Multiple charges are definitely the vital ingredient. If one unit charges, the enemy will withdraw and the rest of the army will blow them away. Now let's say you get 4 units into CC and you have just tied up a bit chunk of his army. If he withdraws them all, his firepower in the next turn will be seriously compromised and he will struggle to put them down before they charge again (more Red Thirst bonuses). Put all the charging units on one flank and it will be even harder for their mates on the opposite flank to help.
Why 4 units? Because I think that is the best you can reliably manage on Turn 1. You will 2 units of DC with Jump Packs, one in Reserve to drop and assault with DoA and one to jump up the Table using forlorn Fury. Add Lemartes for rerolls. Add a Libby with Quickening with Angels Wing in Reserve too and you have character who only needs to roll 6+ for their charge and has a built-in reroll and immunity to Overwatch. Lasty either Mephiston or a Libby Dread with Wings of Sanguinius. Moving 19" or 20" should make it easy for them to make a charge too (Mephy can ride in a pod with some suitable back-up if you wish).
That should come to under 800 points (depending on your exact loadout) but is one heck of a Turn 1 punch. Odds are that at least 3 out of 4 units should make the charge and you have plenty of points left for fire support and a second wave.
Tpiddy wrote: I ordered the digital version. Still having an issue finding a few points values here or there. Can anyone tell me if the sanguinary ancient pays for a chapter banner (and therefore standard of sacrifice?)
The Standard doesn't cost points. It is factored into the price of the unit.
This. The Ancient-- including the variants such as Terminator Ancients-- pays for the model, plus one weapon.
I’m planning on starting a second army into Blood Angles. I have the codex and I’m looking for input into units I should be buying first. Is there a rank order for units somewhere in this thread? I was particularly interested in what the BA community thought about our Dreadnoughts? I am also curious as to why I would want to take a Baal Predator over a razorback? I have many questions but any input on how to start and what to ignore is great.
LIbby dreadnought has cool shenanigans.
Furioso: I'm finding myself taking a Redemptor instead.
Regular: Cheaper than furiosos, but still seems weak compared to Redemptor
DC dread: The 6" consolidate is very nasty.
Baal predator vs razorback: Baal pred actually takes up a force org slot, and 6 heavy bolter shots is nothing to sneeze at. You are paying for the heavy bolters and the CP. Oh, and it seems like it counts for kill shot. At least for most people.
