This is the problem with trying to fall back to the old idea that blood angels are indeed a codex chapter and should be run like one. They don't do anything better then a codex chapter when playing this style. If you play to the BA strengths, then we start looking a lot better. Does that mean all melee, no, not at all. But a much more balanced list then the all shooty codex chapter armies from C:SM.
According to the fluff we like to deepstrike with JP, we like flamers, and we like melee. And what of this can we do better than any other chapter ? Nothing. So, what are those BA strength you are talking about ? Black rage ? Nice to have, but nothing spectacular.
It's good to know there are other people thinking the same currently. We really need the codex to find our identity!
@ Coyote 81: I love BA for their aggressive style but as I mentioned earlier the only two games I won I had a shooty list. This is the shootiest I've done so far and yes I'm currently playin as a vanilla marine but what are the other choices we have? We need a really CaC troop who can eradicate enemies and sadly neither DC nor SG are currently capable of doing this. Just have a look at berserkers: this is a true devoted CC unit which cost 80 points compared to the 85 of DC but can they can fight twice each round and they butch really well.
Well, we could get the option to deepstrike closer than 9", making it easier to get into CC. We could get a cost reduction on flamers, or buffed flamers. JP for less pts., more units with JPs. Imagine we could equip a dev squad with JP. Imagine we could get a drop pod which can deepstrike a dreadnought. Or get a big cost reduction on drop pods. We could get the rule that we always attack first, even when we get charged.
It's just like 7th, really. The problem is complex to the point where I'm not sure. What WAS the fix for BA in 7th? Nothing, really. A photocopy of gladius like the lions' blade would have just made us red vanilla marines.
Elite infantry is taking it up the ass again, this time for different reasons. Getting elite infantry to where it needs to be vs hordes and even pseudo hordes is basically impossible against a knowledgeable foe. You spend the whole game cutting up conscripts or gaunts, because they can give you no choice in the matter. The only helpful mechanic would be a strategem that changes the way your opponent can setup, forcing them to leave DS holes.
I have to concur with the previous statement-- if you can find a way to squeeze a cheap HQ in there, this could give you another CP. It's not heavily necessary but certainly might help.
Also, I'm sadly shaking my head at people who say BA have to be all jump packs all the time with no shooting at all. That's not BA. That's fething world eaters.
I have to concur with the previous statement-- if you can find a way to squeeze a cheap HQ in there, this could give you another CP. It's not heavily necessary but certainly might help.
Also, I'm sadly shaking my head at people who say BA have to be all jump packs all the time with no shooting at all. That's not BA. That's fething world eaters.
But if they want to play it like that, shouldn't they be able to?
Ridiculously melee-focused jump pack list with 80 jump pack troopers in 16 squads led by three HQ, for 2k points. You can do this. It can be aggressive enough to win, even, if you play it right. Hell, once the codex comes out and thunder hammers become cheaper, you can probably squeeze in another five or ten more-- in fact, I could easily find a way to squeeze in another squad of five if I wanted to. Is this the kind of list you want to use?
I find it, as noted before, ridiculous. But it seems to be the kind of list people would want BA to bring.
Well, i think that kind of army should be playable if people want it to be. I'm also fine with their being other BA builds.
What does a fluffy BA list look like in your opinion, and what sort of special rules would help seperate them from normal marines, but not pigion hole them to jump packs, while still being fluffy? I don't know a ton about BA as i prefer playing over fluff etc.
p5freak wrote: What would you like to see in the codex ?
I would like to see all infantry and Dreads get "Red Thirst: You may charge, even if you have advanced this turn".
Simple, fluffy and it shows our love for speed and getting into the enemy quickly. It also means that assaulting out of Deep Strike becomes viable (not guaranteed but viable).
Death Company should be fearless (these guys WANT to die) and should be better in CC. I am not saying Besereker-level but better than they are currently. Maybe something like Wulfen whereby when they are killed, they get to make a final CC attack before they go down.
Our CC Dreads need a big price cut (look at the Ironclad).
Sanguinary Guard need a substantial price cut too. Angelus Bolters for 9 points is daft when you can get plasma pistols for 7 which are better in just about every way. Also encarmine weapons are overpriced. They cost more than Force Weapons for equivalent rules yet are put on models with fewer attacks (and wounds).
Dante needs some decent rules to represent being the oldest Chapter Master in the Imperium.
Sort those out and we might get somewhere around mid-tier whilst actually being fluffy too.
p5freak wrote: What would you like to see in the codex ?
I would like to see all infantry and Dreads get "Red Thirst: You may charge, even if you have advanced this turn".
Simple, fluffy and it shows our love for speed and getting into the enemy quickly. It also means that assaulting out of Deep Strike becomes viable (not guaranteed but viable).
Death Company should be fearless (these guys WANT to die) and should be better in CC. I am not saying Besereker-level but better than they are currently. Maybe something like Wulfen whereby when they are killed, they get to make a final CC attack before they go down.
Our CC Dreads need a big price cut (look at the Ironclad).
Sanguinary Guard need a substantial price cut too. Angelus Bolters for 9 points is daft when you can get plasma pistols for 7 which are better in just about every way. Also encarmine weapons are overpriced. They cost more than Force Weapons for equivalent rules yet are put on models with fewer attacks (and wounds).
Dante needs some decent rules to represent being the oldest Chapter Master in the Imperium.
Sort those out and we might get somewhere around mid-tier whilst actually being fluffy too.
I would be pretty disappointed by that CT i think. It wouldn't effect deepstriking units, since they can't advance. And unlike chaos renegades, who have the same trait, BA doesn't have easy access to charge rerolls from khorne standards.
If they get any of the chaos tactics, id think it might be the night lord's.
I personally hope for something more interesting, like buffs as enemy or friendly units start dying, free attacks when models die, or not letting enemy units fall back from combat.
All the other things you mention seem fair, though.
jcd386 wrote: What does a fluffy BA list look like in your opinion
I was asking you what you were looking for.
For me, BA are a mostly codex-adherent chapter; barring the exception of sanguinary guard and death company, they still make use of a mix of tacticals, assault marines, and devastators as other chapters, with more willingness to get in to close combat than most codex-adherent chapters have.
If we're doing wishlisting now, I'd like to see BA tacticals get the option to equip a boltgun and chainsword instead of boltgun and bolt pistol, a small change that'd let them them hit harder on the charge while still keeping them similar enough to other codex adherent chapters. I'd also like to see BA special pistols (inferno and hand flamer) become useful and worth taking-- at least make them cheaper if nothing else!
jcd386 wrote: What does a fluffy BA list look like in your opinion
I was asking you what you were looking for.
For me, BA are a mostly codex-adherent chapter; barring the exception of sanguinary guard and death company, they still make use of a mix of tacticals, assault marines, and devastators as other chapters, with more willingness to get in to close combat than most codex-adherent chapters have.
If we're doing wishlisting now, I'd like to see BA tacticals get the option to equip a boltgun and chainsword instead of boltgun and bolt pistol, a small change that'd let them them hit harder on the charge while still keeping them similar enough to other codex adherent chapters. I'd also like to see BA special pistols (inferno and hand flamer) become useful and worth taking-- at least make them cheaper if nothing else!
Yeah, I'm a little afraid that BA will get the WE trait, and SW will get the EC trait (to make up for the old true grit).
I definitely think that the best BA lists right now are basically some Tacs, scouts, Devs/Preds, Dreads, with some kind of DC/SG unit dropping in to spice up the list. Seems balanced and reasonably strong to me. Libs also seem quite good. But i can see that a lot of people would think this was the same as regular marines, and without a codex, they would be kind of right except for the better powers and okayish deepstriking assault units.
p5freak wrote: What would you like to see in the codex ?
I would like to see all infantry and Dreads get "Red Thirst: You may charge, even if you have advanced this turn".
Simple, fluffy and it shows our love for speed and getting into the enemy quickly. It also means that assaulting out of Deep Strike becomes viable (not guaranteed but viable).
Death Company should be fearless (these guys WANT to die) and should be better in CC. I am not saying Besereker-level but better than they are currently. Maybe something like Wulfen whereby when they are killed, they get to make a final CC attack before they go down.
Our CC Dreads need a big price cut (look at the Ironclad).
Sanguinary Guard need a substantial price cut too. Angelus Bolters for 9 points is daft when you can get plasma pistols for 7 which are better in just about every way. Also encarmine weapons are overpriced. They cost more than Force Weapons for equivalent rules yet are put on models with fewer attacks (and wounds).
Dante needs some decent rules to represent being the oldest Chapter Master in the Imperium.
Sort those out and we might get somewhere around mid-tier whilst actually being fluffy too.
I'd agree with quite a bit on this list. I'd prefer a decent of angels ability that allows us to better chance to charge after DS, and i'm not just talking re-rolls like Lemartes gives, maybe adding to charge distance or just a closer DS. Maybe 7" instead of 9". that would make it harder for opponents to block off their side of the table and allow us more chance to charge off DS.
I totally agree about dreads, our dreads, specially the DC dread and furioso are woefully overpriced. The Hellbrute is like 30 points cheaper and has just about the same, if not better rules and stats. Currently is there any reason to even take the furioso over the DC dread other than the frag cannon? Blood Talons are utter trash compared to the blood fists and cost 15 points more!! you'd be crazy to them over the fists.
DC definitely need a little bit of a boost. They cost more than bezerkers I believe and clearly aren't close to what they are in.
Dante needs to add CPs like the other major chapter masters like calgar, abbadon, hell, even azreal adds 1 CP. He might even need something else too for 215 points, either that or a points drop.
Our wargear costs are mostly way overpriced. Angelus bolters, infernus pistols, blood talons, encarmine weapons. I don't even know that hand flamers are worth 8 points, when a plasma pistol is 7.
I definitely think that the best BA lists right now are basically some Tacs, scouts, Devs/Preds, Dreads, with some kind of DC/SG unit dropping in to spice up the list. Seems balanced and reasonably strong to me. Libs also seem quite good. But i can see that a lot of people would think this was the same as regular marines, and without a codex, they would be kind of right except for the better powers and okayish deepstriking assault units.
I'm actually just getting into BA myself. Just started around a core of tacticals, scouts and devastators with baal predator support. I intend to expand on it with some death company to support.
Reason being is that I like it fluff and game play wise. To have a solid vanilla esque space marine core with blood angels flavour seems right to me.
As I go on I'd like to explore alternatives but I'm quite happy with the current situation.
Also, the BA tactical squad is one of the better looking 10-man space marine boxes, weird space-vampire-heads notwithstanding (I don't like any of the unhelmeted heads for any space marine, regardless).
I definitely think that the best BA lists right now are basically some Tacs, scouts, Devs/Preds, Dreads, with some kind of DC/SG unit dropping in to spice up the list. Seems balanced and reasonably strong to me. Libs also seem quite good. But i can see that a lot of people would think this was the same as regular marines, and without a codex, they would be kind of right except for the better powers and okayish deepstriking assault units.
I would have waited for the BA codex, to see what changes/improvements happen. I was getting "screwed" by GW when i started with 7th ed at the beginning of this year. Rules changed, and the units i bought were useless/different. The baal predator is to expensive, same with the rhino. Razorbacks is the way to go. I also bought a drop pod, which is now useless.
I definitely think that the best BA lists right now are basically some Tacs, scouts, Devs/Preds, Dreads, with some kind of DC/SG unit dropping in to spice up the list. Seems balanced and reasonably strong to me. Libs also seem quite good. But i can see that a lot of people would think this was the same as regular marines, and without a codex, they would be kind of right except for the better powers and okayish deepstriking assault units.
I would have waited for the BA codex, to see what changes/improvements happen. I was getting "screwed" by GW when i started with 7th ed at the beginning of this year. Rules changed, and the units i bought were useless/different. The baal predator is to expensive, same with the rhino. Razorbacks is the way to go. I also bought a drop pod, which is now useless.
I'd definitely say this %100 true. At best, I've had units that went from good to not even worth playing, and at worst i've had entire army lists invalidated by new books.
On another note, I know a lot of you guys/gals think the BA should just be red marines, with a couple extra unit entries, but if that's the case, then they should just be rolled into the SM book like black Templars were, with a unit entry for DC and sanguinary guard/priests. To me the blood angels are the jump pack assault army. They are the world eaters of the imperial armies. They are about CC and they are teetering on the edge of madness, some already mad with rage, and blood lust for CC. That's how I hope they play out, as I want a heavily skewed CC army for my BA that's fairly competitive.
bobafett012 wrote: On another note, I know a lot of you guys/gals think the BA should just be red marines, with a couple extra unit entries
Chaos marines are just marines with a few chaos units added in and some chaos upgrades-- Havocs are just devastators, Chosen are just company veterans, Raptors are assault marines, and so on. Space Wolves are just wolfy marines who wolf a lot with a few wolf units added in for wolfing-- blood claws and sky claws are assault marines, grey hunters are tacticals, longfangs are devastators. Dark Angels are just marines who are emo a lot and have deathwing. Black Templars are just marines who are purging with their kin. Death Guard are just marines who are way too damn sick for their own good and gave in to that sickness because they're weak. And so on and so forth. All marines are "marines with a couple extra unit entries". Even Grey Knights can be called that, and they're the most different of any marine army. That's what makes them Space Marines. The only way to get away from this is to make them not Space Marines. Would you prefer them to be Orks, perhaps, or Eldar, or Necrons, or Guard?
BA already can be a jump pack army. However, making them "the world eaters of the loyalists" is both boring AND goes against the lore. If you want an army of crazed jump pack fanatics who are good in melee, you can play an army of death guard and chaplains-- and furthermore, it's perfectly legitimate in the current system! Lemartes, 3 death company squads, chaplain, 3 death company squads, chaplain, 3 death company squads, plus whatever support you want to bring scattered throughout the three detachments. There you go. Not for me, however, and it's a death company list rather htan a BA list. Trying to pidgeonhole the rest of us in to playing the same army as you would require a massive retcon of what the Blood Angels actually are. I didn't buy and assemble and start to paint a BA force only to see the flavor that attracted me to them be subsumed in to becoming a bland-ass World Eaters clone. They're better than that.
bobafett012 wrote: On another note, I know a lot of you guys/gals think the BA should just be red marines, with a couple extra unit entries
Chaos marines are just marines with a few chaos units added in and some chaos upgrades. Space Wolves are just wolfy marines who wolf a lot with a few wolf units added in for wolfing. Dark Angels are just marines who are emo a lot and have deathwing. Black Templars are just marines who are purging with their kin. Death Guard are just marines who are way too damn sick for their own good and gave in to that sickness because they're weak. And so on and so forth. All marines are "marines with a couple extra unit entries". Even Grey Knights can be called that, and they're hte most different of any marine army.
BA already can be a jump pack army. However, making them "the world eaters of the loyalists" is both boring AND goes against the lore. If you want an army of crazed jump pack fanatics who are good in melee, you can play an army of death guard and chaplains. Trying to pidgeonhole the rest of us in to playing the same army as you would require a massive retcon of what the Blood Angels actually are.
A vast majority of this statement is patently false. Sure, at the moment it's fairly close because many of these armies are still utilizing the index, which is as vanilla as is possible and the armies in the SM codex only vary slightly, as they are all codex adherent chapters. Can you just take tac marines and devestators, sure, but then there's no point in the playing BA over another SM faction, matter fact, you'd be much better off just playing Ravenguard or something. Just pick your favorite color and have fun.
Prior to 8th, or at least 7th since I didn't play in 7th, These armies (BA, SW, DA) not only felt different but they could do things that other space marine chapters couldn't because of force org and what slots different units filled, and their special units. No other army could run assault marines as troops, only white scars and Ravenwing could run biker armies, Deathwing could run all terminator armies, space wolves not only have many different non standard units in the codex, but their wargear and standard load outs on various units made them play very differently. And Chaos marines used to be able to take marks that made each squad play a little different based on how you equipped them and their mark.
There is ton's of BA players that want to play good jump pack armies, and probably just as many that want to play red marines. Clearly there's nothing stopping you from playing red marines with plenty of tac marines and devastators. There isn't now and won't be after the codex drops. There's also nothing stopping us from playing assault marine armies other than the fact that assault marines are terrible at the moment. They aren't troops so can't obsec, and this is only part of this issues for Jump Pack or even just CC oriented BA armies.
What I gave was MY OPINION. No where am I pushing my opinion onto anyone else. Again, MY VIEW of the Blood Angels. That's how I want MY Blood Angels to play. And even if MY blood angels play like that, YOUR blood angels can still just be red marines if you so choose. What's funny is their special rules have always favored exactly what I am saying. Getting into CC and doing damage, ALL the special units they have are geared for CC, DC dreads, DC, Sanguinary guard, Sanguinary priests, Stormravens, furiosos, Assault squads, Dante, Mephiston, Lemartes, Astorath, the sanguinor, all their rules, red thirst, priests aura, black rage, decent of angels, unleash rage etc etc It's laughable that you think their lore is not a CC leaning army yet, every single thing special in their list, rules and units, plus fluff, plus books, all contradict what your saying. I just read the Mephiston and Dante and every book contradicts what your saying. The BA specialize in the use of jump packers. That's not their only unit but every marine, JP or not, is struggling with the red thirst and the need/want to drop their guns and rush forward into combat and slay the enemy. It's why Khorn choose them to try and turn them to chaos. It's in the fluff, it's in codexes, it's in the books, it used to be in the force org, it's everywhere. They are masters of aerial assault. The only thing I would like is for us the get some decent special rules (some points drops) to facilitate these units into a cohesive list.
I'm glad you think the BA playing similar, not exactly the same, but similar to a CC khorn army would be "both boring and going against the fluff". That's just a false statement and completely your opinion, so please don't try to push it on me like it's correct.
I don't want anyone not to be able to play their Blood Angels the way they want but let me be the bearer of some bad news for you, your not going to get any special rules for BA that boost the shooting of the army. Sorry to break your heart but that's what codex space marines is for, maybe dark angels too... Expect CC oriented rules for SW, and for BA. The way it has been for many editions now, and i'll play my CCBA and you can play your red marines and the world will be good.
FYI, next time, if you want to have a real conversation about the BA, try not to be a massive donkey-cave, and maybe there is a fair conversation to be had...
It's based on a comparison of the various SM armies to non-SM armies. And it's true. And it was true all the way back to second. Each marine list is still a marine list, and is only slightly different from the next marine list compared to differences they have to non-marine lists.
bobafett012 wrote: These armies (BA, SW, DA) not only felt different but they could do things that other space marine chapters couldn't
And they still can. For example, BA can equip heavy flamers on their tacticals, hitting harder at short range than any other tactical squad. BA can also equip different pistols than plasma on their assault marines, giving options for how to equip them and give them different roles-- yes, those pistols are kinda lackluster due to point costs right now, but they exist. And there's the Baal Predator and its ability to output a ton of damage at short range, and its ability to move faster than any other predator as well. And that's just to start.
Even without a codex, BA can do things other marine chapters can't.
bobafett012 wrote: That's just a false statement and completely your opinion
Actually, no. They are, in GW's own words, one of the examples of codex-adherent chapters with minor deviations. Thus, it is not my opinion, unless you're going to try to say "well, that's just GW's opinion, nyeah!" in which case... fair enough, I guess, but that doesn't exactly lend credence to your argument.
bobafett012 wrote: I don't want anyone not to be able to play their Blood Angels the way they want but let me be the bearer of some bad news for you, your not going to get any special rules for BA that boost the shooting of the army
Actually, the index already gave rules that boost the shooting of the BA army. They could be optimized, sure, but they exist.
Your condescension is amusing, but ultimately fruitless.
Jump packs had such potential after they ripped the balls off drop pods. But GW inadvertently took deep strike out of the game in high level play. Sigh...
Martel732 wrote: The aggression just gets us killed atm. I'm not sure how the codex magically changes that.
Im having success with a 15 man JPDC squad atm, Lemartes and Sang Priest make sure they are a threat to pretty much anything, I keep them cheap at 20 pts each, chainsword and bolt pistol, 60 re roll attacks on the charge at str 5 will make a dent in pretty much anything.
I'd give them two or three few thunder hammers if you're investing that many points in the squad. Helps deal heavier damage to vehicles in a pinch. Though they do pay a bit of a premium for THs... but then again, I really like that model of a DC two-handing a thunder hammer, so
Martel732 wrote: The aggression just gets us killed atm. I'm not sure how the codex magically changes that.
Im having success with a 15 man JPDC squad atm, Lemartes and Sang Priest make sure they are a threat to pretty much anything, I keep them cheap at 20 pts each, chainsword and bolt pistol, 60 re roll attacks on the charge at str 5 will make a dent in pretty much anything.
That's close to my version of 15 man JPDC with Astorath and a libby. Mine costs more, since I'm rocking 3 X thunder hammer, 3 X power sword in the squad, but immunity to morale, plus shield of sanguinius and unleash rage are hot on 15 dudes. Plus, astorath helps other BA squads as well (if that mattered). I really feel like priests are best with multiwound units. I've never missed the reroll on the charge, and Astorath is better at punching and taking hits.
I wish sanguinary priests had the option for terminator armor.
Yes yes, I know the old rant, "but terminators suck!", but still. Making claw termies S5 would do a great deal in making them better. And while I know they can just jump pack to deep strike with termies, it just isn't as visually appealing.
Thought I would sign up and reply as I started playing 40k in the second edition, just so happens that back then I chose BA as a chapter as I couldn't paint and preferred red over blue for spraying my mk6 armour troops
I have not played for years and am now getting back into it as I have introduced my son to the game (he plays Necrons).
So, from where I came from, BA always have been just a space marine chapter, but it turns out now they are a thing!
So, some questions for you all.
I have a bunch of Apothecaries who are painted in standard issue imperial armour (white armour, red helmet with white stripe) do you think I can run these with my BA's and just say that their "official" BA apothecary outfits are in the dry cleaners?
As I mentioned, my son plays Necrons, it also turns out that he loves vehicles. What weapons would you guys take along to get past quantum shielding, the more damage I do the less likely it is to actually stick!
The current BA apothecaries are "Sanguinary Priests", which wear white armor, red shoulders, and typically go without helmets-- but red helmets would be perfectly fine.
So IMO, you could use them without having any excuse really.
Sanguinary Priests are actually better than normal apothecaries, as they give an aura of +1 strength to friendly units with a model within 6".
Automatically Appended Next Post: For reference, it's this guy:
Front:
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Back:
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However, standard apothecaries painted in BA/Apothecary colors work just fine, you'd still say they're sanguinary priests as that's what BA use as apothecaries. SM use ancestral armor all the time after all, why not use armor from previous editions?
I started back in 3rd, played some 4th and a touch of 5th. Just getting back into the hobby now. Always wanted to play BA even back in 3rd, and like the army being melee oriented but not melee-only. I love the look of devastators with red power armor and blue helmets but them moving forward on the roll of a die back in 3rd turned me off the army completely. I'd be perfectly happy playing red marines this edition with some fluffy exclusive units but I'll likely be happy with whatever the codex gives us, barring loyalist World Eaters, because as mentioned, that sounds bland.
I've just started with the Dark Imperium box so far and it's disappointing reading how poorly regarded Primaris are. Truescale 2W marines pretty much got me interested in the hobby again. I'll likely get the "get started" box next despite people saying Baal preds are overpriced and tac marines are mediocre. Seems like a good value and the minis look quite good, bare heads aside. I don't remember the vampirism aspect being so blatant in 3rd but I'm sure I just wasn't as astute back then lol, not sure I even clued into what the DA Fallen were back then. I'm somewhat nervous to buy too much before the codex comes out in case nicer new minis come out, and at this point assault marines seem like a waste of points and money.
Quick question; should primaris inceptors have yellow helmets as "close support" squads?
Martel732 wrote: The aggression just gets us killed atm. I'm not sure how the codex magically changes that.
Im having success with a 15 man JPDC squad atm, Lemartes and Sang Priest make sure they are a threat to pretty much anything, I keep them cheap at 20 pts each, chainsword and bolt pistol, 60 re roll attacks on the charge at str 5 will make a dent in pretty much anything.
That's close to my version of 15 man JPDC with Astorath and a libby. Mine costs more, since I'm rocking 3 X thunder hammer, 3 X power sword in the squad, but immunity to morale, plus shield of sanguinius and unleash rage are hot on 15 dudes. Plus, astorath helps other BA squads as well (if that mattered). I really feel like priests are best with multiwound units. I've never missed the reroll on the charge, and Astorath is better at punching and taking hits.
I just use the Priest for the STR 5 buff really, bringing back marines is just a bonus. 60 str 5 attacks on the cheap can actually hurt T6/T7/T8 on the charge pretty decently. Your setup is very nice as well.
To answer my own question about the Necron vehicles, I'm thinking I'm going to need either heavy flamers (and get close) or assault cannons as I need to deal a lot of 1 wound damage to negate the shielding.
excellent, thankfully my first re-investment in my ancient BA army was four razorbacks and a whirlwind. shame the razorbacks have las cannons on the top, but they will look cool once painted up in red
gkos wrote: excellent, thankfully my first re-investment in my ancient BA army was four razorbacks and a whirlwind. shame the razorbacks have las cannons on the top, but they will look cool once painted up in red
If you still have the heavy bolters they came with, and some extra assault cannons laying around, it's not too hard to take the turrets apart, cut off the pegs and replace them with a magnet, then magnetize the Las cannnon turret, and convert the heavy bolters into assault cannons.
I did this with 3 of mine and will probably do a couple more in the future.
I agree with Melissa that we're supposed to be a codex chapter, but an extremely aggressive codex chapter. Every time we get unique toys the smurfs take them from us and hand them out like candy. We invented viable razor spam back in fifth. All of our stuff should move faster and hit harder.
My wish list:
Return the Lucifer engines to the rhino chassis and let them shoot at full ballistic if they don't overcharge their engines.
Reduced price pistols, like storm bolter levels of reduced, as well as the other BA specific wargear people have mentioned. Seriously a storm bolter is functionally better than a flame pistol
DC should get the same death frenzy ability that Wolfen get. Don't let us attack twice like khorn berserkers because we keep the rage in check, but by the emperor we should never be denied our swings in combat. Full attack profile too, not just one swing.
More planes! No reason we shouldn't have access to a full air force.
Priests need terminator armor and bikes, because we all already have the models.
Slightly cheaper termies, but let us mix the squad types. We've got space hulks to clear out!
More artificer armor and master crafted upgrade access, we're the artists or the warhammer world.
Reduced JP cost that is reflected in JP primaris models as well.
At least 5+ FNP bubble access.
We shouldn't have the greatest combat focused units in the game, but we should be able to buff up to meet them as we work to unleash our inner Mephiston.
Baals should be able to fall back and shoot.
Wings of Sanguinius.
Also, here's a list I've been working on. It's supposed to have shooting for all the high toughness and melee units, with my melee going after scoring and squishy units that my opponent would rather didn't get charged.
Spoiler:
I think it's good for a Battalion and a Vanguard for 7 points?
Brother Corbulo
Mephiston
Captain
3x Intercessor Squad w/ bolt rifle and auxiliary grenade launcher
Furioso Dreadnought w/ 2x heavy flamers and magna-grapple
Vanguard Veteran Squad w/ JP Sergeant has thunder hammer
1x power axe and chain sword
4x dual chainswords
Hell Blaster Squad with plasma incinerators
Baal Predator with full flamers and storm bolter
2x Predators with auto cannon and las sponsons
Stormraven with default and hurricane bolters
Mephiston, the dread, the vanguard, and the baal should all be hitting at the same time so nothing is left unsupported. The Baal and the Furioso exist to soak up overwatch and to just be bully units.
The regular preds, hellblasters, captain, and Corbulo support eachother and should fight at mid range to support the assault front as well. Hellblasters will constantly be overcharged with an almost guaranteed res if they self immolate.
Would like some feedback, some choices were made for fluff reasons. For instance I'd feel bad bringing a DC dread without DC units and Lemartes.
brokbrok wrote: I agree with Melissa that we're supposed to be a codex chapter, but an extremely aggressive codex chapter. Every time we get unique toys the smurfs take them from us and hand them out like candy. We invented viable razor spam back in fifth. All of our stuff should move faster and hit harder.
While it would be great for us to have an identity, balance-wise it's completely nonsensical to make one codex chapter blatantly better than the others. We already have some pretty great and unique choices, as well as the pretty iconic chapter rules. Making our vehicles objectively better, our CC better and giving us even more fancy toys just completely knocks the other chapters off the table. If we're fast AND still have the rest, why play white scars for just the one model?
Realistically, I'd love for BA to have even more thematic rules and such, but with chapter tactics, the sanguinary discipline, access to flamers and all of our unique fancy toys we've already got a solid identity. Providing straight up buffs is a bit of a dilemma, so I reckon hold off judgement on our identity until the codex comes out.
Actually, Descent of Angels would make for a great stratagen. 2 or 3 cp, can be activated only once. When activated, during this turn only, BA jump pack and terminator models that arrived by deep strike can move normally after arriving.
I mean, maybe that's just my drowsiness-addled mind thinking but that'd be fun, maybe not balanced but...
Melissia wrote: Actually, Descent of Angels would make for a great stratagen. 2 or 3 cp, can be activated only once. When activated, during this turn only, BA jump pack and terminator models that arrived by deep strike can move normally after arriving.
I mean, maybe that's just my drowsiness-addled mind thinking but that'd be fun, maybe not balanced but...
Maybe not Move, but Advance? DS at9+ Advance, try for a charge...worth 1 or 2 CPs I think...
Melissia wrote: The fewer army-wide special rules that are tied to named characters, the better.
Guilliman and magnus can gtfo back to 30k as far as I'm concerned...
Might as well get used to them, because it certainly seems like the rest will be following shortly. Hopefully if that is their plan, they at least won't bring the dead ones back. As much as Sanguinius is one of the most bad ass primarchs of them all, he's dead and should stay that way, at least imo.
Melissia wrote: The current BA apothecaries are "Sanguinary Priests", which wear white armor, red shoulders, and typically go without helmets-- but red helmets would be perfectly fine.
So IMO, you could use them without having any excuse really.
Sanguinary Priests are actually better than normal apothecaries, as they give an aura of +1 strength to friendly units with a model within 6".
Automatically Appended Next Post: For reference, it's this guy:
Front:
(snipped image)
Back:
(snipped image)
However, standard apothecaries painted in BA/Apothecary colors work just fine, you'd still say they're sanguinary priests as that's what BA use as apothecaries. SM use ancestral armor all the time after all, why not use armor from previous editions?
This is close to correct, but allow me to make one minor correction.
The Apothecary in the standard marine codex is called a Sanguinary Novitiate, and can equip a jump pack, unlike his standard space marine counterpart. This was previously part of a Blood Angels command squad, which consisted of 3x veteran marines, a Company Champion, and the Sanguinary Novitiate. He's basically an elite version of the Sanguinary High Priest (referenced above by Melissia) and has the Narthecium, allowing him to attempt to heal models or revive slain models in a squad. The Novitiate is an Elite choice, and is a character/stand alone model. He does not have the Chalice, which grants the +1 to strength to any units within 6" of him. In the index, I don't know if the Novitiate is just called an Apothecary now, but I know in at least the last codex Blood Angels received, they were specifically called Sanguinary Novitiates.
Now, the Sanguinary High Priests, or Sanguinary Priests, are the HQ choice option and are mostly identical to the Sanguinary Novitiate, but have more wargear options, plus the cool model that Mellissia linked in her post, and also have the Blood Chalice that grants the lovely +1 Strength bonus to nearby BA units in addition to the Narthecium.
I run the Novitiate regularly with good success, he generally helps keep my Captain/Librarian and Company Champion alive for an extra turn or two once they start taking wounds. The High Priest is also extremely useful as well, especially near an assault oriented unit such as Sanguinary Guard and Death Company, or just a large squad of Assault Marines/Vanguard Veterans.
Just offering that for consideration. Take it easy.
Just a strange thought, but what is the viability of an all Dreadnought army as Blood Angels? Been tinkering with points and it looks like it could be real fun.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Just a strange thought, but what is the viability of an all Dreadnought army as Blood Angels? Been tinkering with points and it looks like it could be real fun.
I pointed out a list with 2 libby dreads and like 6 or 7 DC dreads, and currently I think our dreads are way too expensive as Panda eluded to. All the other dreads base around 80-90 for SM and chaos dreads and ours are up at nearly 130 points base, and then there is no reason to currently run a furioso over the DC dread other than frag cannon. The Blood talons also need a complete rework as they are completely and utterly inferior to the double fists, and they cost 15 points more!
I think it could be a cool, fun list, but basically, you can run (almost) as many dreadknights as you can BA dreads in a list and I'd wager the dreadknights are going to be far superior, so we'll see after a points drop and maybe some new rules/wargear for them.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Just a strange thought, but what is the viability of an all Dreadnought army as Blood Angels? Been tinkering with points and it looks like it could be real fun.
I pointed out a list with 2 libby dreads and like 6 or 7 DC dreads, and currently I think our dreads are way too expensive as Panda eluded to. All the other dreads base around 80-90 for SM and chaos dreads and ours are up at nearly 130 points base, and then there is no reason to currently run a furioso over the DC dread other than frag cannon. The Blood talons also need a complete rework as they are completely and utterly inferior to the double fists, and they cost 15 points more!
I think it could be a cool, fun list, but basically, you can run (almost) as many dreadknights as you can BA dreads in a list and I'd wager the dreadknights are going to be far superior, so we'll see after a points drop and maybe some new rules/wargear for them.
Well, I was playing around on Battlescribe and was able to get 14 Dreads in a list in three Vanguard Detachments.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Just a strange thought, but what is the viability of an all Dreadnought army as Blood Angels? Been tinkering with points and it looks like it could be real fun.
I pointed out a list with 2 libby dreads and like 6 or 7 DC dreads, and currently I think our dreads are way too expensive as Panda eluded to. All the other dreads base around 80-90 for SM and chaos dreads and ours are up at nearly 130 points base, and then there is no reason to currently run a furioso over the DC dread other than frag cannon. The Blood talons also need a complete rework as they are completely and utterly inferior to the double fists, and they cost 15 points more!
I think it could be a cool, fun list, but basically, you can run (almost) as many dreadknights as you can BA dreads in a list and I'd wager the dreadknights are going to be far superior, so we'll see after a points drop and maybe some new rules/wargear for them.
Well, I was playing around on Battlescribe and was able to get 14 Dreads in a list in three Vanguard Detachments.
3 vanguards would require 3 libby dreads which are absolute minimum 192 points a piece. DC dreads are 197 points minimum, and Furiosos are 183 points minimum. We don't have access to iron clads. So yeah you could run a bunch of cheap basic dreads out of the SM book, but what fun is that? you don't get any BA goodness other than Libby dread, and your likely to be lacking ranged anti armor.
You can get more than 14 of them if you are going twin heavy bolter and missile launcher but I just don't see they being very effective.
I think the big problem with Blood Angels is they don't have an identity. Everytime I talk to someone, I hear something different. We're the jump pack army, we're a Codex marines army, we're a fast mechanized army, we're a close combat army, etc. So which is it?
I think all the jump pack stuff comes from the 5th ed Codex where we could take them as troops. I think GW has the same issue as each Codex that comes out our rules are pretty different.
I hope our Codex makes us fast, and hard hitting. If I'm wishlisting, give us a dedicated flyer back, a close combat Primaris unit (Primaris DC please), and bring back Sanguinius (fluff-wise I'd be annoyed, but the model and rules would be so good I'd give him a pass). And of course we need all the regular stuff like points adjustments and such.
theharrower wrote: I think the big problem with Blood Angels is they don't have an identity. Everytime I talk to someone, I hear something different. We're the jump pack army, we're a Codex marines army, we're a fast mechanized army, we're a close combat army, etc. So which is it?
I think all the jump pack stuff comes from the 5th ed Codex where we could take them as troops. I think GW has the same issue as each Codex that comes out our rules are pretty different.
I hope our Codex makes us fast, and hard hitting. If I'm wishlisting, give us a dedicated flyer back, a close combat Primaris unit (Primaris DC please), and bring back Sanguinius (fluff-wise I'd be annoyed, but the model and rules would be so good I'd give him a pass). And of course we need all the regular stuff like points adjustments and such.
theharrower wrote: I think the big problem with Blood Angels is they don't have an identity. Everytime I talk to someone, I hear something different. We're the jump pack army, we're a Codex marines army, we're a fast mechanized army, we're a close combat army, etc. So which is it?
I think all the jump pack stuff comes from the 5th ed Codex where we could take them as troops. I think GW has the same issue as each Codex that comes out our rules are pretty different.
I hope our Codex makes us fast, and hard hitting. If I'm wishlisting, give us a dedicated flyer back, a close combat Primaris unit (Primaris DC please), and bring back Sanguinius (fluff-wise I'd be annoyed, but the model and rules would be so good I'd give him a pass). And of course we need all the regular stuff like points adjustments and such.
It's the same conundrum as the last two editions.
They've definitely went through some major changes. I didn't start until the white dwarf codex came out, either 4th or 5th edition. Though I do remember playing a BA player back in 2nd, and they had to go through their entire army rolling dice to see which models were overcame by the black rage and joined the Death company. It was kind of interesting.
Better assault rules in general Heavy flamers on tacs Better pistol options on sarges, ASM, and characters Faster vehicles with more close-ranged shooting Powerful assault veterans More mobility while deep striking
Does it well enough already. We need BW to make what we have _better_, but BA certainly already has an identity. And hvaing more options along these lines would help, but not to the point of being "World Eaters, but Loyalist". BA are better than that. If that's all we were, we WOULD lose our identity.
That stuff needs to add up to an "aggressive style" instead of a "speedy death". Until then, we're gimpy vanilla marines. I guess we can call it a dysfunctional identity instead of no identity.
Martel732 wrote: That stuff needs to add up to an "aggressive style" instead of a "speedy death"
I quote:
Melissia wrote: We need GW to make what we have _better_, but BA certainly already has an identity.
Already responded to your complaints, Martel.
I don't know if GW will do that. GW is incredibly inconsistent with Blood Angels. But as BA are right now, they HAVE distinguishing characteristics, we just need them to be made good enough to matter.
PandatheWarrior wrote: Yeh you were getting an extra squad, was pretty nice mechanic but definetily not easy to applicate
It was a free squad, but you did lose models from your other units which sometimes made for some interesting situations. It was fun rolling to see what models fell to the Death Company. I do remember having my overcharged engines on my Rhinos stalling a lot of times and my Devastators being forced to move and not be able to fire their weapons.
Melissia wrote:Their in-game identity isn't that hard to figure out. They are mostly codex-adherent chapter that is more aggressive in battle.
That's a pretty broad description. Aggressive can mean a lot of things: faster movement, faster in combat, more attacks, stronger attacks, closer deep strike distance, more shots, reroll charges, longer chargers, longer consolidate, etc. Most of that stuff GW has toyed with in one way or another. It's obvious they don't know what the rules should be for Blood Angels either. The best determiner we have of where we'll end up in 8th is the fluff from the rulebook:
Known for their ferocity, the Blood Angels bear within them all that is good and noble, yet their gene-seed also contains a destructive flaw. So must every Blood Angel rein in his fury, holding in abeyance the blood-madness.
Created during the First Founding, the Blood Angels are one of the oldest and proudest of all Space Marine Chapters. In the Great Crusade they established their bloodthirsty zeal, favouring aggressive tactics, close combat and the use of jump packs, and they have maintained this fierce reputation ever since. The Blood Angels are equally noted for their unceasing quest for perfection in all their endeavours – from the flawless execution of a battle plan to the aesthetics of their wargear. Yet for all their honours, for all their storied accomplishments fighting at the forefront of the Imperium’s many wars, the Blood Angels are deeply marred. Since the closing days of the Horus Heresy, when their angelic, winged Primarch, Sanguinius, was viciously killed at the hands of Horus himself, the Blood Angels have been haunted by a curse. That the Sons of Sanguinius fight on, despite the blood rage that seeks to overwhelm them, body and soul, only makes their selfless sacrifice all the nobler. Although held in awe and feared in equal measure by those they protect, the Blood Angels continue to smite the Imperium’s foes, compiling a battle history second to none.
The Black Rage On the eve of battle, Blood Angels are prone to apocalyptic visions that can plunge them into a spiral of madness. Death is the only release from this malady. It is almost inevitable that this fate will eventually overtake every Blood Angel. This Black Rage is a psychic imprint left by their Primarch Sanguinius’ death. Left in a frenzied state, those warriors suffering from the Black Rage seek only to charge and hack their foes. Over the centuries, the Blood Angels and their successor Chapters have learned how to best wield these warriors, forming them into a Death Company from which these berserkers are hurled into battles that no sane warrior would risk. It is better that they should achieve an honourable death in combat for the cause of the Imperium than face the final stages of uncontrollable fury, turning the once noble warriors into little more than snarling beasts. In the Blood Angels, those suffering from the Black Rage don black armour daubed with red crosses, signifying the wounds of Sanguinius.
However, Black Rage only applies to Death Company, making that paragraph not particularly useful for Blood Angels outside of DC. Unless you think GW is going to make everyBA marine part of death company, which... would be a very unfortunate and saddening turn of events that would honestly make me depressed enough to just make me stop playing them. Probably would make me paint my BA as Raven Guard or something, or sell them to start a new army.
Don't forget, unlike Khornate Berserkers, most Blood Angels do in fact rein in their "blood madness". That's what separates BA from melee-crazy armies. While they do favor jump packs and close combat more than most Marines, they still abide by the codex astartes-- or try to, insomuch as the temptation of the Red Thirst allows them to.
Theirs is a struggle against bloodlust, while a lot of people here say "just give, let the blood flow and stack the skulls high". That's not BA. That's WE.
I think this thread is the wrong place to discuss BA lore and identity. Currently our special rules do not separate us enough from regular SM to warrant a truly distinct playstyle in a competitive setting. That will change when the codex is released. How those special rules will be implemented remains to be seen but that discussion does not belong in the tactica thread.
I hope instead of resurrecting Sanguinius they have The Sanguinor hulk out due to the increased warp energies and he becomes a cross between Celestine and a Primarch.
sossen wrote: I think this thread is the wrong place to discuss BA lore and identity. Currently our special rules do not separate us enough from regular SM to warrant a truly distinct playstyle in a competitive setting. That will change when the codex is released. How those special rules will be implemented remains to be seen but that discussion does not belong in the tactica thread.
Fair point. I started a thread over on Bolter and Chainsword if anyone wishes to carry on the conversation there.
Heavy flamers are unfortunately not that impressive for the cost. They do autohit, which completely negates the -1 to hit, but Str 5 is not a very good strength for a horde-clearing weapon in 8th. At least, not right now.
Captain w/TH Librarian w/FAxe, BP 5 Tacticals w/HF, Combi-Flamer, Power Sword 5 Tacticals w/HF, Combi-Flamer, Power Sword 5 Tacticals w/HF, Combi-Flamer, Power Sword Razorback w/TLAC Razorback w/TLAC Razorback w/TLAC Predator w/TLAC, HB sponsons
I think this could work nicely at the points level it's at (1000 points), with higher points levels allowing for more long-ranged anti-tank and dedicated assault units to be added on to this core. Though a Lieutenant from the SM codex would actually be better here than a Captain (rerolling wounds is more valuable than to-hits unless you're trying to buff the razorbacks and predator), we don't have that yet unless we want to borrow from the SM book (which GW said we can do, but not everyone seems to care).
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Martel732 wrote: Heavy flamers are unfortunately not that impressive for the cost. They do autohit, which completely negates the -1 to hit, but Str 5 is not a very good strength for a horde-clearing weapon in 8th
Against Marines, Necrons, or Orks it's pretty solid. Wounds on a 3+, reduces armor save by one, 3-4 hits on average-- that's better htan a heavy bolter, at the cost of range and some points.
Martel732 wrote: Agreed, but those factions are fading in my meta.
Marines aren't fading in any of the the warhammer communities in my area. They're always popular.
Necrons are though, but they've kinda been struggling for a while now, as have Orks.
Regardless, I think heavy flamers are a bit overpriced, but they are certainly much more adaptable than normal flamers in the hands of a tactical squad. Then again, I also think Flamers are overpriced, so go figure.
Most marine players have another list, which they are proceeding to use this edition. I realize overall marines are still popular, but the failure of primaris made a lot of people switch over to their other lists.
Melissia wrote: Yeah, I'm not going back to BnC. Regardless...
Spoiler:
Came up with this while idly messing around with
Captain w/TH Librarian w/FAxe, BP 5 Tacticals w/HF, Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
5 Tacticals w/HF, Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
5 Tacticals w/HF, Combi-Flamer, Power Sword
Razorback w/TLAC Razorback w/TLAC Razorback w/TLAC Predator w/TLAC, HB sponsons
I think this could work nicely at the points level it's at (1000 points), with higher points levels allowing for more long-ranged anti-tank and dedicated assault units to be added on to this core.
It's certainly a lot of dakka, but this is going to struggle against mutliwound models or mech. I would change the Baal for an Autocannon Pred with Lascannon Sponsons. It would be interesting to see how this would do. There's only 17 infantry and they would get shredded in assault, but all those shots could compensate for it.
Frozocrone wrote: Heavy Flamer and Combi-Flamer could be switched out for Plasma Gun and Combi-Plasma
Not really; the HF/CF hits more times on average, and does more damage, unless the plasmagun overcharges, and the overcharge requires your force to be clustered around a captain.
HF+CF without any buffs deals 1.972 kills at 8" against MEQ (assuming an average of 3.5 hits each, plus firing boltgun at -1) Against GEQ this becomes 3.94 kills.
Plas+Combiplas buffed by a captain deals 1.728 kills at 12" against MEQ firing standard shots. Against GEQ this becomes 2.593 kills.
Plas+Combiplas buffed by a captain deals slightly less* than 2.16 kills at 12" against MEQ firing overcharge shots, doubled against two-wound models. Against GEQ this becomes 2.593 kills (there's no difference against GEQ for S7 vs S8).
So against 1-wound models, the heavy flamer / combiflamer is objectively better than plasma even when the plasma is buffed by a captain, unless buffed by a captain in overcharge mode. Buffed by an Lt, the HF/CF combo becomes 2.236 kills against MEQ, meaning it does more damage for less points even than overcharge.
*Slightly less because of the small but still existent 1/36 chance for a marine buffed by a captain to kill themselves with the first overcharged plasmagun shot, thus causing them to not be able to take the second one.
*Slightly less because of the small but still existent 1/36 chance for a marine buffed by a captain to kill themselves with the first overcharged plasmagun shot, thus causing them to not be able to take the second one.
Shots happen simultaneously. And the model is killed after all shooting attacks are resolved. If a model rolls a hit and a blowup the hit still wounds. Btw, im really good at blowing up my captain, already happened twice to me.
My strategy was this :
Priest and Chaplain boost the VV (+1S and re-roll attacks)
Captain sticks with Tacs to re-roll 1's on shooting, supported by the razorbacks
I did ok, I found I wasted a lot of shots trying to wipe out his destroyers.. they just came back with RP :(
The whirlwind did little damage.
My VV squad got into position to charge the cryptek, it took all five of them to kill him and then they got wiped out by the warriors, this was a tactical error on my part, I should have put them in CC with the warriors at the same time.
The Wraiths are tough to kill, but easier than the destroyers as they have no RP.
The Razorbacks did well, I only lost the one with the other untouched, they put out a lot of damage for the 5 power level.
At the end of the game, I had killed 1 destroyer ( I actually killed 5 but they just kept coming back) , 1 cryptek and 3 wraiths
He had killed 1 Razorback, 1 tac squad and 4 VV
If anyone has any suggestions on why this list lost, I would be glad to hear them, also, would be keen to know your thoughts on the VV setup, they seemed expensive but it was my fault not keeping them in CC, still they took 40 -1ap shots and 1 out of 5 survived!
Id probably run the VV plasma pistol / chain sword, as they do a lot more damage that way, and the SSs usually don't do much to save them in my experience.
I might also drop one of the HQ units. Having a chaplain and a priest buffing just 5 guys doesn't seem that effective when you could just bring more guys instead.
jcd386 wrote: Id probably run the VV plasma pistol / chain sword, as they do a lot more damage that way, and the SSs usually don't do much to save them in my experience.
I would go with two plasma pistols. Supercharge them, add the captain with combi plasma, reroll 1s.
as this was my first "big game" I really wanted to test the dynamics of how the buffs stack up, the +1 to strength from the priest really improved the chainsword hits.
Totally agree about the stormshields, the sheer volume of hits they took negated their influence. Jump packs proved useful for getting in close the turn after deploy from above.
The tac squad did ok due to the razorbacks being the focus of fire, they stuck around two rounds and caused damage.
I find that using power levels really allows me to go nuts on the weapons and it turns out that our local GW shop prefer to use them.
This is quite nice as a BA player as it allows the taking of some of our more exotic weaponry without fretting about the overcost.
I find that using power levels really allows me to go nuts on the weapons and it turns out that our local GW shop prefer to use them.
This is quite nice as a BA player as it allows the taking of some of our more exotic weaponry without fretting about the overcost.
PL is great and at the same time it allows some armies to just stack on huge items without worry. i just fought TAU where the guy had every single crisis suit armed to the gills.I think his points vs. PL would have been heavily in his favor. It is fun though and easy to price out and play.
My Dual Baal 50 PL list had an overwhelming victory against the Necrons!
I ignored the oppos Destroyers until last as with RP those things are just too hard to put down.
Ran the Baal preds up the table and managed to engage one in turn one, close support by the assbacks took out a squad of immortals, put baals and assbacks on the oppos Triarch Stalker on turn two and took it down, forgot to deploy troops!. Lost one Baal turn two.
Deployed troops turn three, gained captains reroll 1's and put tacs heavy flamers into range of his warriors (toasted a few but most came back on RP), lost 2nd Baal Pred and a few tacs this round but the Baals had done the job of shielding the rest of the forces deployment.
Put everything with 1 damage on the warriors on turn 4, took out 14 units which was enough for them to fail morale and clear the squad out. Plasma and missiles went into destroyers.
Melissia wrote: Yeah, the unique BA upgrades are very much overpriced to various extents. They're good, but they're not THAT good, GW.
Oh come on. 9 point Angelus Boltguns are totally worth it.
Been playing a lot using the Open War deck. I like it a lot, but man do I get hosed with PL for Death Company. I know PL is supposed to be a rough estimate, but when I build a list for points and take 7 Death Company, I'm giving up an extra 9 PL which sucks.
Melissia wrote: Yeah, you need your DC to be five- or ten-man bands to take full advantage of that, as it adds PL per five.
Yeah, it puts list building in a weird spot. I have the same issue with some other squads as well. Like on Scouts and my Devs I'll take a few extra models for wounds, but that ends up biting me. I like the Open War deck, but that bit about it irks me.
Well, I suppose you could always just grab some extra redundant models to add in so that you fill up those powerlevels if you have to play a PL game, while leaving them out of ;points games.
Melissia wrote: Well, I suppose you could always just grab some extra redundant models to add in so that you fill up those powerlevels if you have to play a PL game, while leaving them out of ;points games.
The crux of the issue is I don't play power level. Me and everyone at my store makes lists using points. When we play with the Open War deck, it rewards the army with the lower power level with an extra ability which is kinda stupid. I mean, I guess the deck wasn't made with points in mind? Either way, when you cross both systems (the BAO uses power level in point games) it causes issues.
Anyone thinking that we will get access to Lieutenants in the new Blood Angesl codex? They have access to Jump Packs in the current Space Marine codex, and most all of the weapons options.
Might be a fun idea to kit one out for melee to run along side a squad of Sanguinary Guard or Death Company perhaps (especially Death Company buffed by Lemartes) to allow for some re-roll 1's.
I'm contemplating gearing a LT out with a Thunder Hammer and perhaps a plasma pistol or some other pistol, maybe a hand flamer for fun. Of course a Death Mask would also be equipped on him if possible, as well.
Just wondering if folks were considering them as an option if we gain access to them in the new BA codex.
Red__Thirst wrote: Anyone thinking that we will get access to Lieutenants in the new Blood Angesl codex?
I hope so. An Lt and Chaplain would make our sanguard/dc way better.
Martel: Christ, man, get a hold of yourself.
Seriously Melissia, just put him on ignore. I did over a year ago and have been so much happier. The occasional tactical comment is drowned out by the constant negativity and nay-saying so it's easier to block him and pretend he doesn't exist any more.
I've got an idea for a Lieutenant, but not sure yet on it. Will have to see if we are going to get them in the new codex (I can't see why we wouldn't) before I commit to building one and painting it up.
I'd certainly run one with my Death Company though for sure, or along side some eventual Sanguinary Guard.
I have an Lt built with hammer, jump pack, and bolt pistol for my list-- actually finished building him today! The idea being he's the one leading my scouts, where the captain is leading the terminators. Admittedly, it's just an assault marine mini with a thunder hammer arm, but hey, that's all I need.
I'm leaning toward a hammer myself, though I may do something different with mine, such as a power fist and combi-melta or something along those lines. Not sure yet.
I want the hammer to be on a model with an innate reroll ability (even if it's just re-roll 1's) and with a 2+ to hit in melee so it still hits on a 3+ with the hammer.
We'll see of course. I've also go the concept of just doing up an alternative version of my Captain with the hammer and go whole-hog with it by giving him an inferno pistol along with it and making him dangerous to anything he gets close to.
Hi all, I've just got some reinforements for my BA in. A 10 man BA tactical squad and a devastator squad and upgrade pack and I'm looking for some advice on what to equip them with.
I already have 3 x 5 man Tac squads, 2x5 w/plas/c-plas, 1x5 w/ melta/c-melta, 1x 5 man Devs w/ 4x las-cannons. The tacs are usually split over a rhino and a razorback.
I think i'm wanting to add more guys to the 5 man squads to put them up to 10 as 5 has been a bit lacklustre for me so far. I was thinking of 2x10 with the plasmas and heavy flamers in rhino's and 5 with melta in a assback with 5 staying around for a home objective maybe?
The devastators are for heavier targets and I'm thinking of another 5 with 4x Missile Launchers as they do both frag and krak for options.
Not 100% convinced about either of these set-up's but do feel it's probably the best bang for my buck with these guy's.
Does anyone have any suggestions other than above? Also any recommendations on equipment? Is plasma/melta still best way to go for tacs? Also what would anyone suggest for a camping 5 man tac squad?
BATac squads are sufficiently blingy that you could use them to represent Sternguard. Put them in a Rhino or Pod and deliver those AP-2 bolters into double-tap range to really put the hurt on heavy infantry.
For a Camping squad, I would honestly go for Sniper scouts or Intercessors (don't shoot the messenger). Both have longer range than Tac squads which is useful when you are baby-sitting an objective.
You already have 6 troops, i'd go for sternguards or devastator. Otherwise i would use the heavy flamer so you can swith plasma for it if yur list need it, it's quite good vs assault armies.
Well, gave the Blood Knights (BA Successor) another try today. Needed to take a break from constantly getting their teeth kicked in the last couple of weeks, but they hit the table with some real fire today.
Today was by far the best they have done for me in this edition. Won their first game, and we played another game as a Narrative mission. Only lost the second game because I failed to kill one model in two separate units with some bad rolls. Butchered him for the most part in the second game.
The first game was a Matched Play game and ended up tabling him on my turn 4. In that game I have found that although Assault Marines are still just as pillow fisted as every other game I have used them, they made great bubble wrap. All I used them for was to surround but not engage an enemy to cut off sections of their army to make close combat more favorable for the Dreadnoughts and other units fighting in close combat. They were also great for spreading them out to deny areas for things like Daemon Princes to land and forcing Smites onto them, instead of the Dreadnoughts or Melta Squads. My opponent also discovered the horror of Inferno Pistols, he used a consolidation move with a Daemon Princes that was hacking through the lines to engage both of my melta squads thinking he'd be safe from the Melta Guns. That Prince died a horrible death to two Inferno Pistol shots... love it.
Had never tried MSU Marines before. I am a fan now.
5x Tactical Marines w/ Heavy Flamer, Power Sword
5x Tactical Marines w/ Heavy Flamer, Power Sword
5x Scouts w/ 4x Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher
5x Assault Marines w/ 2 Meltaguns, Power Sword, Melta Bombs
5x Assault Marines w/ 2 Meltaguns, Power Sword, Melta Bombs
Baal Predator w/ Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolters, Storm Bolter
Rhino w/ 2 Storm Bolters
I was tempted to go for Combi-Flamer or Hand Flamer but I felt that it was too weak and if I was close enough for a Flamer, I could charge for S5 AP-3 just because. Might as well make them jack of all trades (plus I thought it looked cool, same reason for Inferno Pistols on HQs).
Only downside is lack of Plasma, next purchase will definetely be some Dettol so I can re do my Hellblasters.
I'm really torn as to what to even recommend in 8th. Without a codex, nearly everything BA try do will be done better by vanilla marines, as has been the case for three editions now. That's why BA lists are looking like vanilla lists. On top of the difficulty of differentiating two lists with the same base troops and weapons.
I think that power armor melee troops have really been on a downhill slide for some time now as well. The final nail I think is the walking out of CC rule.
Hah, Melissia, I feel like people often forget that Blood Angels are a Codex Compliant Chapter, that happens to have a few unique units. Instead, people seem to think that the only way to play Blood Angels is nothing but Jump Packs, Death Company and Baal Predators. Wrong.
Plus, I play a Successor Chapter (Blood Knights), which the High Lords of Terra have decreed to be renegade. It would only make sense that we no longer have access to a lot of the unique and rare wargear anymore.
Besides, if that's all you bring, you're missing out on the BA Tactical Squad box, which is one of, if not THE best looking marine squad kit ever released.
Are heavy bolter sponsons worth it on a standard predator? Seems like the sort of dakka marines can get multiple other places. I'm leaning towards getting some "start collecting" boxes and Razorbacks, then swapping assault cannon to the Razors and twin lascannon to the Predator. Seems more economical than buying Crusader sprues. Is autocannon generally preferred with its consistent damage? I'll also have to get some sponson lascannons if heavy bolters are mediocre..
Melissia wrote: Besides, if that's all you bring, you're missing out on the BA Tactical Squad box, which is one of, if not THE best looking marine squad kit ever released.
All of my Blood Angels are the old metal ones, with newer plastic bits. I haven't gotten a good look at a lot of the goodies in the plastic BA box.
For a standard pred, the lascannons are definitely favored. The 2d3 autocannon shots are good against heavy infantry enough to justify heavy bolters, but usually you have plenty of other things to use for that. But having long-ranged anti-tank is just much more important for most marine lists. If you're not using a baal pred, I'd use lascannon sponsons.
Melissia wrote: Besides, if that's all you bring, you're missing out on the BA Tactical Squad box, which is one of, if not THE best looking marine squad kit ever released.
All of my Blood Angels are the old metal ones, with newer plastic bits. I haven't gotten a good look at a lot of the goodies in the plastic BA box.
They're amazing. There's so much detail and the scullpting is beautiful.
Thanks Melissia, the lascannon seemed better to me but I thought I might be missing something. I'll definitely be using a Baal Predator, I've always loved the looks of it. The flamestorm cannon doesn't interest me, the twin assault cannons seem much more versatile. I was thinking if I use a Baal Pred to fight from midfield it could also escort a Razor or two, with that many assault cannons do the sponson flamers make sense for A) protecting the transports from assault once they back, and B) close range threat deterrent in general? If there are 24-36 assault cannon shots I don't think I'll be missing the 6 from heavy bolters, but I most of what I've read thus far in 8th has been pretty negative towards all types of flamers. Any thoughts?
Plus, I play a Successor Chapter (Blood Knights), which the High Lords of Terra have decreed to be renegade. It would only make sense that we no longer have access to a lot of the unique and rare wargear anymore.
Hahaha don't you say. It was kinda oblivious they were special snowflakes.
It is nasty. Its overcharged engines allow for some tactical maneuvers at least.
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Bremon wrote: I was thinking if I use a Baal Pred to fight from midfield it could also escort a Razor or two
Or three. The razors depositing heavy flamer / combiflamer tacticals can put a lot of hurt on a lot of things very quicly, especially with baal pred support.
Bremon wrote: with that many assault cannons do the sponson flamers make sense for A) protecting the transports from assault once they back, and B) close range threat deterrent in general? If there are 24-36 assault cannon shots I don't think I'll be missing the 6 from heavy bolters, but I most of what I've read thus far in 8th has been pretty negative towards all types of flamers. Any thoughts?
This edition, flamers of all kinds are expensive for what they do. Bear in mind, they're more expensive than HBs. So your choice is 6 shots at 36" range or less (3 hits if you move, 4 if you're still), or 2d6 auto-hits at 8" or less (~7 average hits). So the heavy flamers have more potential hits than the HBs and do more damage on average-- especially on overwatch-- at the cost of less effectiveness at normal shooting due to range issues.
They're not bad mind you. But consider how you want to use them and what the local meta is first.
I'd love a Strategem where (similar to WS Bikes) Blood Angels can advance and still fire weapons (extra bonus if it's Heavy weapons as if you didn't move but I'll just take advance and shoot).
They're the ones that said BA are codex compliant. The fact that we don't have a book yet means nothing on that topic, and you're being disingenuous to suggest such.
Frozocrone wrote: Only bad thing about Assault Cannon Baal is that Overcharged Engines don't really do anything for it.
Otherwise I'm excited for mine. 20 shots (between Storm Bolter, TLAC and HB) seems nasty.
Overcharged Engines don't seem especially beneficial for the flamer options either; it gets them in range quicker but if they advance into range they still can't do anything until overwatch in the enemy turn.
Melissia wrote: It is nasty. Its overcharged engines allow for some tactical maneuvers at least.
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Bremon wrote: I was thinking if I use a Baal Pred to fight from midfield it could also escort a Razor or two
Or three. The razors depositing heavy flamer / combiflamer tacticals can put a lot of hurt on a lot of things very quicly, especially with baal pred support.
Bremon wrote: with that many assault cannons do the sponson flamers make sense for A) protecting the transports from assault once they back, and B) close range threat deterrent in general? If there are 24-36 assault cannon shots I don't think I'll be missing the 6 from heavy bolters, but I most of what I've read thus far in 8th has been pretty negative towards all types of flamers. Any thoughts?
This edition, flamers of all kinds are expensive for what they do. Bear in mind, they're more expensive than HBs. So your choice is 6 shots at 36" range or less (3 hits if you move, 4 if you're still), or 2d6 auto-hits at 8" or less (~7 average hits). So the heavy flamers have more potential hits than the HBs and do more damage on average-- especially on overwatch-- at the cost of less effectiveness at normal shooting due to range issues.
They're not bad mind you. But consider how you want to use them and what the local meta is first.
True, the cost of flamers does surprise me in some instances; they seem quite inflexible compared to often cheaper alternatives that put out more consistent hurt over the course of a game. I do like the idea of mechanized BA with a Razor rush. Even still, sponson heavy flamers are as far as I'd commit I think; the flamestorm cannon as the turret armament basically turns the tank into a small deterrent bubble. It could work, but is pricy for that purpose. Maybe I'll magnetize or proxy it before committing.
Frozocrone wrote: I'd love a Strategem where (similar to WS Bikes) Blood Angels can advance and still fire weapons (extra bonus if it's Heavy weapons as if you didn't move but I'll just take advance and shoot).
This would be cool, I have high hopes for the codex but worry GW doesn't know what to do with BA.
Hah, Melissia, I feel like people often forget that Blood Angels are a Codex Compliant Chapter, that happens to have a few unique units.
GW disagrees, we cannot use stratagems, warlord abilities, etc., from the codex space marines.
And the baal pred is way to expensive.
Maybe the way to be the most competitive right now is to play vanilla; Blood Ravens or Red Ultras, but the rule of cool has its place and sometimes things like Baal Preds are too cool not to use.
Hah, Melissia, I feel like people often forget that Blood Angels are a Codex Compliant Chapter, that happens to have a few unique units.
GW disagrees, we cannot use stratagems, warlord abilities, etc., from the codex space marines.
And the baal pred is way to expensive.
Maybe the way to be the most competitive right now is to play vanilla; Blood Ravens or Red Ultras, but the rule of cool has its place and sometimes things like Baal Preds are too cool not to use.
Yeah, even if it would be more ideal to run them as Ultramarines or one of their many successors, I can't do it. Would rather lose using my army as I want, then try and cheese a win.
All the pure crunchers claim that assault cannon razorbacks are better than Baal preds, but I think that they are moving more often, and are more likely to be assaulted, which makes them far less killy. Just my observations.
Also, a pair of Baals are more likely to stay together and suck up sweet, sweet aura buffs than razorbacks that have to drive to potentially different objectives.
Martel732 wrote: All the pure crunchers claim that assault cannon razorbacks are better than Baal preds, but I think that they are moving more often, and are more likely to be assaulted, which makes them far less killy. Just my observations.
Also, a pair of Baals are more likely to stay together and suck up sweet, sweet aura buffs than razorbacks that have to drive to potentially different objectives.
That's because you presuppose they use razorbacks like transport and not like cheaper baals wich they are. So all your points are invalid. The only thing we could advance for AC baal is access to HB sponsons.
So, how are you getting your units in such a list to objectives alive? A razorback is a transport. It should be moving forward, or at least towards an objective. If it's not, your opponent is probably advancing their game faster than you. Paying 100 pts for a single twin assault cannon doesn't cut it, imo.
Red__Thirst wrote: Anyone thinking that we will get access to Lieutenants in the new Blood Angesl codex?
I hope so. An Lt and Chaplain would make our sanguard/dc way better.
Martel: Christ, man, get a hold of yourself.
Seriously Melissia, just put him on ignore. I did over a year ago and have been so much happier. The occasional tactical comment is drowned out by the constant negativity and nay-saying so it's easier to block him and pretend he doesn't exist any more.
I've got an idea for a Lieutenant, but not sure yet on it. Will have to see if we are going to get them in the new codex (I can't see why we wouldn't) before I commit to building one and painting it up.
I'd certainly run one with my Death Company though for sure, or along side some eventual Sanguinary Guard.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Did the same. Not going to get my blood pressure up over a game with plastic soldiers.
What are the best CC units BA have now? Are Death Company good anymore? I looked at them in the index and wan't impressed but I've never seen them in action for 8th.
Hah, Melissia, I feel like people often forget that Blood Angels are a Codex Compliant Chapter, that happens to have a few unique units. Instead, people seem to think that the only way to play Blood Angels is nothing but Jump Packs, Death Company and Baal Predators. Wrong.
Plus, I play a Successor Chapter (Blood Knights), which the High Lords of Terra have decreed to be renegade. It would only make sense that we no longer have access to a lot of the unique and rare wargear anymore.
Having played with the 3.5 paper BA codex, I disagree with both of you. Your list did not have the required Death Company, which was the hallmark of BAs prior to the 5th ed push for jumppacks. You also don't Terminators, which is what the Archangel Company was originally formed around.v It no includes Jump units and terms, but we're talking old school. Our current book also doesn't have overcharged engine on anything except the Baal predator (Which for some reason doesn't have all assault weapons like it should)
As I was saying it looks like a smurf army because you don't even include the old school BA army key concepts, let alone the newer ones they've added to give the army a different flavor. Yes they are codex compliant, but they don't follow it rigidly, as they speak of often in the lore and vastly undersized tactical squads and companies always having full assault squads due to the natural tendency of BA to engage in close combat. The funniest thing is that you are playing Knights of Blood and known extra crazy successor chapter that would have more death company then most. You would also be much less likely to adhere rigidly to the codex astartes due to you crazy and renegade nature. I decided to due a little research as well, did you know they were known to be an almost entirely dedicate assault chapter. A whole chapter of assault marines basically.
It's fine if you want to make up your own lore for your custom chapter, but please don't try to use the idea that BA are a codex compliant chapter as a reason they should look just like an Ultramarine army. They are unique and different from the C:SM chapters, and my comment still stands, your list does not look like a proper BA army.
Hah, Melissia, I feel like people often forget that Blood Angels are a Codex Compliant Chapter, that happens to have a few unique units. Instead, people seem to think that the only way to play Blood Angels is nothing but Jump Packs, Death Company and Baal Predators. Wrong.
Plus, I play a Successor Chapter (Blood Knights), which the High Lords of Terra have decreed to be renegade. It would only make sense that we no longer have access to a lot of the unique and rare wargear anymore.
Having played with the 3.5 paper BA codex, I disagree with both of you. Your list did not have the required Death Company, which was the hallmark of BAs prior to the 5th ed push for jumppacks. You also don't Terminators, which is what the Archangel Company was originally formed around.v It no includes Jump units and terms, but we're talking old school. Our current book also doesn't have overcharged engine on anything except the Baal predator (Which for some reason doesn't have all assault weapons like it should)
As I was saying it looks like a smurf army because you don't even include the old school BA army key concepts, let alone the newer ones they've added to give the army a different flavor. Yes they are codex compliant, but they don't follow it rigidly, as they speak of often in the lore and vastly undersized tactical squads and companies always having full assault squads due to the natural tendency of BA to engage in close combat. The funniest thing is that you are playing Knights of Blood and known extra crazy successor chapter that would have more death company then most. You would also be much less likely to adhere rigidly to the codex astartes due to you crazy and renegade nature. I decided to due a little research as well, did you know they were known to be an almost entirely dedicate assault chapter. A whole chapter of assault marines basically.
It's fine if you want to make up your own lore for your custom chapter, but please don't try to use the idea that BA are a codex compliant chapter as a reason they should look just like an Ultramarine army. They are unique and different from the C:SM chapters, and my comment still stands, your list does not look like a proper BA army.
Sure, I used that Codex too for a while, and while I don't miss having to roll to see if a model joins the Death Company squad, but even back in 3rd, besides a Baal Predator, Death Company and some red paint, there was pretty much no way to distinguish Blood Angels from any other loyalist power armored army.
I did research on the Blood Knights too, and would like to know where you got your info. Because Lexicanum has nothing like what you are talking about from what I remember. The reason I picked them is because there was so little info on them, besides they have been decreed Renegade for a large amount of excess on a campaign. And just because a Chapter might have more Death Company then another, doesn't mean that they will be on EVERY battlefield. They could be sent off elsewhere to go die while the rest of the Company handles a more important task.
And yes, the Blood Knights do seem to be a bit more aggressive then your standard BA, is EVERY Blood Knight going to be a frothing at the mouth madman strapped to a rocket pack at all times? No, that would be pants on head stupid to think that. I also don't remember reading about them being all crazed, all the time... that would be a Khorne army (or that other BA Successor Chapter who has made a pact with a Daemon to ward off the Red Thirst). They still come to the aid of other Imperial worlds (Baal), and generally stay away from other Imperial forces to avoid butchering them as well. Oh wait, and the only vehicles they generlly use are transports to close with the enemy? Huh, guess what, that's all I use for vehicles as well. My army is aggressive though, using the Inferno Pistols to full effect in close range while pushing forwards, burning Xenos scum with Hand Flamers and Flamers, while the Assault Marines (which are pretty garbage, but it didn't seem right to not use them) charge in supported by a Sanguinary Priest and Chaplain. Just because I am not using many of the BA unique units or equipment does not make this army any less a BA army. Is a Salamanders army that doesn't take Vulkan any less a Salamanders army? Sorry I have offended you, and what you have decreed to be Blood Angels, but in all honesty I don't care.
Hah, Melissia, I feel like people often forget that Blood Angels are a Codex Compliant Chapter, that happens to have a few unique units. Instead, people seem to think that the only way to play Blood Angels is nothing but Jump Packs, Death Company and Baal Predators. Wrong.
Plus, I play a Successor Chapter (Blood Knights), which the High Lords of Terra have decreed to be renegade. It would only make sense that we no longer have access to a lot of the unique and rare wargear anymore.
Having played with the 3.5 paper BA codex, I disagree with both of you. Your list did not have the required Death Company, which was the hallmark of BAs prior to the 5th ed push for jumppacks. You also don't Terminators, which is what the Archangel Company was originally formed around.v It no includes Jump units and terms, but we're talking old school. Our current book also doesn't have overcharged engine on anything except the Baal predator (Which for some reason doesn't have all assault weapons like it should)
As I was saying it looks like a smurf army because you don't even include the old school BA army key concepts, let alone the newer ones they've added to give the army a different flavor. Yes they are codex compliant, but they don't follow it rigidly, as they speak of often in the lore and vastly undersized tactical squads and companies always having full assault squads due to the natural tendency of BA to engage in close combat. The funniest thing is that you are playing Knights of Blood and known extra crazy successor chapter that would have more death company then most. You would also be much less likely to adhere rigidly to the codex astartes due to you crazy and renegade nature. I decided to due a little research as well, did you know they were known to be an almost entirely dedicate assault chapter. A whole chapter of assault marines basically.
It's fine if you want to make up your own lore for your custom chapter, but please don't try to use the idea that BA are a codex compliant chapter as a reason they should look just like an Ultramarine army. They are unique and different from the C:SM chapters, and my comment still stands, your list does not look like a proper BA army.
Sure, I used that Codex too for a while, and while I don't miss having to roll to see if a model joins the Death Company squad, but even back in 3rd, besides a Baal Predator, Death Company and some red paint, there was pretty much no way to distinguish Blood Angels from any other loyalist power armored army.
I did research on the Blood Knights too, and would like to know where you got your info. Because Lexicanum has nothing like what you are talking about from what I remember. The reason I picked them is because there was so little info on them, besides they have been decreed Renegade for a large amount of excess on a campaign. And just because a Chapter might have more Death Company then another, doesn't mean that they will be on EVERY battlefield. They could be sent off elsewhere to go die while the rest of the Company handles a more important task.
And yes, the Blood Knights do seem to be a bit more aggressive then your standard BA, is EVERY Blood Knight going to be a frothing at the mouth madman strapped to a rocket pack at all times? No, that would be pants on head stupid to think that. I also don't remember reading about them being all crazed, all the time... that would be a Khorne army (or that other BA Successor Chapter who has made a pact with a Daemon to ward off the Red Thirst). They still come to the aid of other Imperial worlds (Baal), and generally stay away from other Imperial forces to avoid butchering them as well. Oh wait, and the only vehicles they generlly use are transports to close with the enemy? Huh, guess what, that's all I use for vehicles as well. My army is aggressive though, using the Inferno Pistols to full effect in close range while pushing forwards, burning Xenos scum with Hand Flamers and Flamers, while the Assault Marines (which are pretty garbage, but it didn't seem right to not use them) charge in supported by a Sanguinary Priest and Chaplain. Just because I am not using many of the BA unique units or equipment does not make this army any less a BA army. Is a Salamanders army that doesn't take Vulkan any less a Salamanders army? Sorry I have offended you, and what you have decreed to be Blood Angels, but in all honesty I don't care.
And yes every space marine chapter could all play exactly the same (at least the codex compliant ones) but they have distinct flavors, urges, weaknesses. Playing a specific army (If you claim to be playing them thematically, and somewhat lore-accurately) requires you to play toward those strengths and weaknesses. So play Salamanders without flamers or melta, is something they could indeed do, it's very inaccurately for theme, and just dumb for not playing to their strengths.
I just commented it wasn't very BA-like, you can play them that way, it's fine, I was only offended when you tried to act like your way is the way BA truly are, even though history and lore say otherwise.
Martel732 wrote: So, how are you getting your units in such a list to objectives alive? A razorback is a transport. It should be moving forward, or at least towards an objective. If it's not, your opponent is probably advancing their game faster than you. Paying 100 pts for a single twin assault cannon doesn't cut it, imo.
Tell me the price of a 4 HB devastator and how many shots they have. Not gonna argue all the way to the stars, it's fact that razorback AC is absurdly cost efficient.
Martel732 wrote: So, how are you getting your units in such a list to objectives alive? A razorback is a transport. It should be moving forward, or at least towards an objective. If it's not, your opponent is probably advancing their game faster than you. Paying 100 pts for a single twin assault cannon doesn't cut it, imo.
Tell me the price of a 4 HB devastator and how many shots they have. Not gonna argue all the way to the stars, it's fact that razorback AC is absurdly cost efficient.
I agree, it's really good, it's not just 100pts for a Twin AC. It's 100pts for a crazy survivable body as well.
Martel732 wrote: So, how are you getting your units in such a list to objectives alive? A razorback is a transport. It should be moving forward, or at least towards an objective. If it's not, your opponent is probably advancing their game faster than you. Paying 100 pts for a single twin assault cannon doesn't cut it, imo.
Tell me the price of a 4 HB devastator and how many shots they have. Not gonna argue all the way to the stars, it's fact that razorback AC is absurdly cost efficient.
I agree, it's really good, it's not just 100pts for a Twin AC. It's 100pts for a crazy survivable body as well.
Blood Angels do not lack for mobility so even if you do end up using your RBs as gun platforms rather than transports, that is not really a hindrance to your list.
Besides, an enemy advancing towards Objectives is less likely to be getting cover saves than if it is dug-in and will moving into range of your RBs meaning you are less likely to need to move with the attendant -1 to Hit. The enemy advancing onto objectives faster than you is only a problem if they can stay alive once they get there and cheap, durable TACRBs make that job harder.
Coyote81 wrote: Having played with the 3.5 paper BA codex, I disagree with both of you. Your list did not have the required Death Company
Ah, so all BA lists HAVE to have death company, no matter what, and any BA lists that doesn't have death company isn't a BA list no matter what else you include?
Yawn.
Actually, the list given has plenty of BA-specific things.
Coyote81 wrote: Having played with the 3.5 paper BA codex, I disagree with both of you. Your list did not have the required Death Company
Ah, so all BA lists HAVE to have death company, no matter what, and any BA lists that doesn't have death company isn't a BA list no matter what else you include?
Yawn.
Actually, the list given has plenty of BA-specific things.
I was referring to the 3.5 codex, when yes you were required to have Death Company, it was random, on a 6 you lost a member of your unit and it joined death company. You might get a really big DC or small, but it was a required roll. I'm not saying you have to have it now, but having nothing that represents the BA uniqueness is really not a BA army is it?
Looked like a BA list to me; I don't think I've seen a vanilla list with a Sang. Priest. Also has assault marines, transports, flame/melta. Looks plenty fluffy to me. I didn't realize there was such a pissing match amongst the fan base over what constitutes "real" Blood Angels. No wonder so many people complain that GW can't figure out the chapter's identity; the fanbase has multiple ideas of what their theme and identity should be. Glad I'm not writing the book.
Bremon wrote: Looked like a BA list to me; I don't think I've seen a vanilla list with a Sang. Priest. Also has assault marines, transports, flame/melta. Looks plenty fluffy to me. I didn't realize there was such a pissing match amongst the fan base over what constitutes "real" Blood Angels. No wonder so many people complain that GW can't figure out the chapter's identity; the fanbase has multiple ideas of what their theme and identity should be. Glad I'm not writing the book.
Anytime you get a group of people together there will always be those who wish to express their purity to the cause. Thus in their own mind making them better than the rest of the rabble.
Coyote81 wrote: Stop nit picking the little things d look big picture.
Funny, that's what I'm saying about you. All you're doing is furiously picking nits trying to belittle people for not playing the game how you want. That list is perfectly fine for BA. You can whine all you want about how they're not playing BA the way you want them to, doesn't change that the lore of the game supports them playing differently. And ultimately, that's all I give a damn about.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another "basic" BA list I've been mulling about.
For 1k points; six lascannons for anti-tank/monstrous creature duty that give seven shots turn one (and thus 2 shots made at 2+ turn one, three at 3+), six assault cannons, three heavy flamers, five combiflamers, and assaulting at S5 after the flamer/rapid burst due to the priest while rerolling 1s Four drops for deployment. Plenty of room for expansion off of this, making it, I feel, a good starting point for a new BA player, though converting/buying all those combiflamers might be annoying.
...I just commented it wasn't very BA-like, you can play them that way, it's fine, I was only offended when you tried to act like your way is the way BA truly are, even though history and lore say otherwise.
Sweet, thanks for that link. I decided to use my computer to look at it instead of my phone, that sight always has crap tons of pop-ups on my phone and runs like crap. But even then, it still doesn't say that they are always crazed, all the time. Yes, they love them some close combat, and tend to lose themselves in the heat of battle, but they are still loyalists who use tactics and not Khorne Berzerkers. The way the army is built still does match the way the Knights of Blood would operate: small squads due to their depleted numbers, using a lot short ranged weaponry and transports to get close with the enemy, their Sanguinary Priest and Chaplain leading the charge to work them into a fervor, Dreadnoughts charging in while using Melta weaponry and fists (instead of Lascannon and Missile Launcher). Even I use Devastators, the Knights of Blood still need to use that thing called tactics to support a charge into the heart of the enemy with covering fire.
And, I never said that my way was the only way that Blood Angels truly are, I was talking about that there are many ways to run Blood Angels (who are intelligent Space Marines, that while loving close combat, will still bring the tools required to complete the job) besides spamming Baal Predators, Jump Pack marines and Death Company.
Indeed. That's the important distinction for Blood Angels. Yes, they're bloodthirsty due to the Red Thirst and the oncoming Black Rate... but they cling to loyalty and to the Codex Astartes to fight this corruption off.
If all the non-exclusive BA unit options "weren't BA" they wouldn't be in the book to begin with. Red Devastators with blue helmets, to me, is one of the most BA things in the book. That they monitor new inductees for weakness as Devastators seems fluffy and is a reason to include devs; they're rookies and the chapter is nearly decimated; there's likely going to be a large influx of new blood.
No one harasses any UM list that doesn't include Centurions or Thunderfire cannon or other things that not every chapter has access to, so I don't see why we should nitpick. We have a few different tools in our toolbox; just because we have a bigger hammer that happens to be red doesn't mean we should use it to try to turn screws.
Melissia, that flamer/razor rush list looks like it could steamroll up a flank pretty consistently, and has plenty of troops and mobility for grabbing objectives. I could see that sort of template being what my modest force grows into.
Frozocrone wrote: Banner, 2 Swords, 1 Axe and 1 PF? All with Angelus Boltguns I presume?
I haven't. IDK, I just feel death company are more useful for cost, and easier to convert to boot (you can convert boltgun BA tacs in to DC by putting some sheathed chainswords or power swords at their hips, bam, you now have a unit of pretty damn good assaulters)
Bremon wrote: Melissia, that flamer/razor rush list looks like it could steamroll up a flank pretty consistently, and has plenty of troops and mobility for grabbing objectives. I could see that sort of template being what my modest force grows into.
Amusingly enough, it's inspired by how I would play sisters of battle in previous editions. Only instead of exorcist, it's devs and an LC razor, and instead of immolators with twin flamers, it's the far superior twin assault cannon razors. And instead of dying to assault, they're actually decent at it. You'd want to assault after blasting away with the flamers, taking advantage of that S5 against orks or marines.
I use my Sanguinary Guard together with the Death Company. The DC are shock troops and the SG are character/monster killers. The DC screen the SG and punch through the enemy lines. Then the SG can then attack the auras. Combined with a Chaplain and a Librarian it is a very powerful force that can handle most problems. I go against traditional wisdom and deploy them late to get the best choice of setting up on the table or deep striking. The rest of the army is a mobile fire base.
Frozocrone wrote: How have people used Sanguinary Guard this edition?
Thinking of picking up a box for Elites for Tale of Many Gamers (don't think my 1k list had elites).
Banner, 2 Swords, 1 Axe and 1 PF? All with Angelus Boltguns I presume?
SG are in a bit of an awkward spot right due to the Angelus being priced at a truly ludicrous 9 points. I honestly cannot see how they justify that price when a Storm bolter is only 2 points. Anyway the practical upshot of that is that it is currently best to arm SG entirely with plasma pistols as these are only 7 points making them 2 points cheaper than ABGs and a lot deadlier since they can be fired in CC. Inferno pistols are also heavily overpriced so do not bother at the moment.
SG also get to reroll any misses when they are close to the Warlord which means you can overcharge them for minimal risk as long as your Warlord is there to hold their hands. Best Warlord to accompany them is probably the Sanguinor as his +1A buff works very well on a squad with lots of expensive weapons and he is also an awesome beatstick. SG do not need the rerolls provided by Dante or a Captain as they get their own anyway.
The next best character for SG is a Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack. He can patch up wounded models and gives the whole squad +1S which is a really nice boost. If you are feeling lucky, he can even try and resurrect dead SG. He only needs to roll a 4+ twice in a game to make his points back, and that is before the buffs he brings.
Lastly, if you have slots, a Sanguinary Ancient (banner bearer) is a nice option. Rerolling 1s to wound helps and ignoring Morale is nice but less important on small elite units like SG.
So for accompanying characters my choice would be:
1. Sanguinor
2. Sanguinary Priest
3, Sanguinary Ancient (banner bearer)
For CCWs, that depends on whether you have a priest with the squad. You see on the new to wound chart for 8th edition, S5 is a bit of a sweet spot. It provides and effective +1 to wound against T4 and T5 models (most of the infantry you are likely to encounter in the game) and also just manages to wound T8 stuff like Knights and Land Raiders on a 5+ instead of a 6. For this reason, you want to get your squad to S5 if you can but the benefits of going to S6 are much smaller due to the fact that there are not too many T6 models in regular use and it gives no benefit against T7 which is where the majority of vehicles and MCs sit.
If you have a Sanguinary Priest in the squad to give a +1S bubble then I would equip the squad with Glaives. If you do not have a Priest, I would go with all Axes. A power fist may come in handy for dealing with tough targets but it is even more important for the squad to hug the Warlord in this case for rerolls since he will only be hitting on a 4+
This may all change when our codex drops though. Even if Chapter approved gives us access to 12 point power fists like other Codex chapters, they will be a better choice than Encarmine weapons as long as you have a reroll.
I'm still kinda sold on death company even after reading htat. Sang Guard do look a bit better in my eyes now, though.
Actually, I wonder if death company will get lightning claws. With a chap and priest, they'd get 4 S5 AP-2 attacks on the charge, with rerollable to-hit and to-wound, which sounds fairly impressive against MEQ (they'd average 10.535 MEQ kills per five-man squad on the charge, enough to kill any T4 squad-- including five-man intercessor squads-- in one charge, and put some serious hurt on even against TEQ). Against GEQ you'd not need to add the priest, and you'd get 15 kills on the charge.
Though I guess vanvets can kinda do that with claws, just not as good as they don't get +1 to attacks on the charge. Could give them the BA librarian buff though to get a similar result.
Bremon wrote: Are heavy bolter sponsons worth it on a standard predator? Seems like the sort of dakka marines can get multiple other places. I'm leaning towards getting some "start collecting" boxes and Razorbacks, then swapping assault cannon to the Razors and twin lascannon to the Predator. Seems more economical than buying Crusader sprues. Is autocannon generally preferred with its consistent damage? I'll also have to get some sponson lascannons if heavy bolters are mediocre..
I wouldn't say Autocannon is preferred, but I've used both and I kinda like it better with Lascannon sponsons. Gives me a bit more flexibility and the auto 3 damage is really solid.
I appreciate the tips, my next add on from the Dark Imperium set will be a dreadnought and predator I think. Lascannons likely my choice but autocannon may yet happen in the future. So far, in my limited number of games, the Intercessors provide a fairly reasonable amount of dakka. The Inceptors die fairly quickly, and I hate the flying stick on the minis so I'll likely be ditching them soon.
When I initially came back to the idea of BA I really didn't realize how many units in the vanilla book the BA miss out on; I don't remember the discrepancy being as large back in 3rd. It's nice for the purpose of making them different but when our unique stuff is so mediocre at the moment it hurts. Lack of a Ven Dread seems especially glaring, and the Furioso is embarrassing compared to an Ironclad.
Blood Angels seem to have had a poor showing at NOVA
I switched from White Scars too as I love Jump Infantry too much...
Still, can't say I'm surprised, Codexes get cream of the crop and the winning list was Conscripts, some other good AM stuff and Celestine + good stuff Imperium
I find myself having an army that has baal + 2 standard preds, 2 rhinos and a big flying thing.
I also have three marines on bikes from the last box set (so they are Dark Angels I think, whatever, they have silly looking wings on the back). I'm minded to cut the wings off, paint them red and put a few claw like things sticking up from the back of the marine and play them as tech marines on bikes.
Anyone had much experience of running tech marines in games, do they die too soon, or can they keep a vehicle firing a turn or two more?
Cheers
Automatically Appended Next Post: oh, yes.. forgot to mention, 4 Razorbacks too..
Would include a Techmarine or two for a Vehicle Heavy list.
I haven't used one myself (I much prefer Jump Infantry hence Blood Angels over White Scars).
But as an Ork player in addition to BA, my Big Meks and Meks have been crucial in keeping my Dread Mob alive. I can't see why it would be different for SM lists.
I think tech marines can be good if you have enough vehicles, have your reroll auras taken care of, and need a cheap HQ. Otherwise, healing a couple wounds on a vehicle each turn really doesn't seem that helpful to me. Most of the time my vehicles just die, or barely get hurt at all, so i can't think of many times i wish i had a tech marine.
Anyone had much experience of running tech marines in games, do they die too soon, or can they keep a vehicle firing a turn or two more?
It depends more on the type of vehicles than the number of them. Each wound repaired on a Rhino is worth 7 points. Each wound repaired on a Land Raider is worth >20 points. My feeling is a Techmarine is only of value if he is patching up a vehicle worth around 200 points upwards. As for survival, the Techmarine is a Character and so cannot be targeted if he is standing behind the vehicles he is repairing.
Sit a techmarine with conversion beamer near a couple quadlas preds and he can help them destroy the enemy's anti-tank. It's an extra eight points, but frankly it's more useful than the servo-arm if the techpriest is sitting back and repairing.
Melissia wrote: Well, my terminators performed pretty well today. Two wins, not bad all things considered. I hope BA gets their reduction in price soon...
I hope a lot of the BA specific equipment gets a price drop soon. A lot of it feels very overcosted. Has anybody heard any rumors on when our Codex might drop?
One thing I have noticed, is that my Knights of Blood perform much better in objective based games versus Killpoint games. Has anybody else had that experience?
I found an interesting topic on another site (don't know if I can post the link in here) where there's a guy who collected all the battle report he found concerning blood angels: 74 matches played and just 16 wins. Overall not even 25% win rate xD. I compared this result with my poor 2-11 record and I'm doing even worse. I will probably wait until the release of the codex and if I'm not happy with it I'll just change army. I'm sick of loosing
Melissia wrote: Well, my terminators performed pretty well today. Two wins, not bad all things considered. I hope BA gets their reduction in price soon...
I hope a lot of the BA specific equipment gets a price drop soon. A lot of it feels very overcosted. Has anybody heard any rumors on when our Codex might drop?
One thing I have noticed, is that my Knights of Blood perform much better in objective based games versus Killpoint games. Has anybody else had that experience?
Not surprised that much, BA still use the index which don't have all the special rules and bonuses that SM (and CSM by extension) got.
Coupled with overpriced stuff and killing stuff seems to be wanting.
I'm still miffed that Death Company aren't Fearless.
I've been playing against my buddy once a week, and he mostly plays Death Guard. So it's been a bit of a learning experience, but I get to deal with a combination of hoard (poxwalkers), stronger units (T5 and DR 5+ save), larger targets (rhinos, land raiders, daemon princes, etc), and smite spam.
For the life of me, I can't believe that pretty much all of DG gets 5+ and only our DC-specific units (all three) are 6+. But I'm sure I'm not the only who thinks that.
Sanguinary Guard have been clutch with a priest as warlord. Unfortunately, the model kit kinda gimps you with the included weapons, so I have 3 of the bolters, one plasma, and an inferno on my ancient. Despite what seems to be the consensus here, the assault 2 bolters aren't terrible, and it's nice having some variety for their weapons.
I've been using a spearhead detachment consisting of a Baal Pred (flamestorm) defending two Whirlwinds (both vengeance) and they've been working for me so far. Might not be optimal, but I don't play competitive.
Scouts have been helpful. I've been using two squads each equipped with two snipers, a bolter, a shotgun, and a heavy (bolted or rocket launcher). 2+ in cover has made them, at best, a nuisance for my opponent, or at the very least, a speed bump.
Death Company are hit and miss, as others have mentioned. Deep strike doesn't usually work as intended, so I've been keeping 5 with jump packs in a Stormraven with Lemmy and a DC dread. One plama/power sword, one thunder hammer, and 3 with chain swords and bolt pistols for wounds. They've been good as long as I can make the charge.
Objective Secured works against our army, I feel. It almost forces me to build an army around a battalion detachment of either two scouts and a tactical, or two tacticals and one scout. I feel like our army shines with the elite choices, so I'm hoping GW does something to make assaults or DC count as troops, but doubt that will happen.
How are you finding the flamestorm Baal Pred? Seems too close range for me, I feel like I'd have a hard time utilizing it to it's full potential.
Re: ob.sec., Tacs and scouts don't really shine in any army. Ball is in GW's court to make the rest of the army worth a damn so we can balance the shiny with objective holding power.
When I first tried using the Whirlwinds against him, he rushed them with his two bloat drones, so they were constantly retreating from melee, effectively rendering them useless.
Flamestom is good that it deters the rush with insta-hits, and I put the three vehicles in a way that they need to go through the Predator first. Again, it's probably not optimal for competitive play, but we're playing 2500 point games, so 500 points for the detachment plus the added command point don't really hurt me too much.
I hear you, my main opponent is Death Guard in a casual environment as well. I see your point about auto-hits but I would likely still be tempted to put twin assault cannons with heavy flamer sponsons instead; you still get 2D6 insta-hit overwatch for deterrent and have 24" range with a dozen shots to have a wider sphere of influence around your whirlwinds.
Ugh yeah. Death Guard. Had my first game against a full Death Guard army just a little bit ago. It was close, my long range firepower was the only thing that even gave me a fighting chance.
The amount of Mortal Wounds DG pump out makes it hard to make close combat a viable tactic... And the 5+ Disgustingly Resiliant is insane. Typhus on 2 wounds left was able to shrug off the 5 Krak Missiles that hit and wounded between his Invul and Disgustingly Resiliant rolls, he only ended taking 1 wound and lived.
I am going to have to shelve them for now if I want to have a chance in our weekly 1,500 point tournaments and play my Guard. Waiting for our Codex to try and make my army worth fielding again.
Anyone know of why all these rumors of Sanguinius being revived came about? The BA Facebook groups seem to be thinking he'll be back when the codex drops....
It's just following a trend. As we've seen so far it's been 1:1 for loyalist vs traitor primarch. The traitor ones could well correlate with their chaos god, so death guard, t-sons, world eaters, pretty marines may well get one. (kinda makes sense for the 4 chaos gods right?) Hence, there needs to be 4 worthy loyalist chapters to similarly receive a primarch. The back of the index 1 imperium lists the 4 main loyalist factions as Ultras, DA, BA, Wolves, which makes sense as they've had the most love. Each army has unique tac squads (maybe barring DA) and unique specialist squads, hence it can be safe to assume they're GW's "main" 4 loyalist chapters.
Hence, Lion, Russ and our man Sanguinius should all make a comeback, following behind Guilliman.
However, I seriously hope not.
1) If the black rage involves hallucinations of Sanguinius' death, how confused are the DC going to be when he turns up leading the force? His return would really do weird things with the DC.
2) I don't think they'd revise that bit of 40k lore. It's kinda a staple of the Horus Heresy story, and very much a part of the BA's identity.
3) We have so many frankly awesome HQs already, that can all see play and have a place in the game. I fear Sanguinius would supersede some of these, namely dante/sanguinor.
4) At least in my mind, BA are not a "character army". They need regular boots on the ground, and it's the nature of these boots (assaulty, in your face, pretty codex compliant) that really defines the army, not solely their characters. (At least in my mind, feel free to correct that.)
5) Realistically, I think other primarchs would be nice, especially if we're limited to just the 4. Jaghatai could be really good, as the White Scars could do with a bit more flavour and the fluff is pretty set up for his return.
6) If they do revive him, what are the implications for the rest of the lore? Can anyone come back from the dead? Are there ANY consequences anymore? Why should we bother caring about character deaths?
7) One thing I like about BA is they are multifaceted. A fast army of baals/razors with some tacs and foot assault is just as "Blood Angels" as a full death company force, which is similarly as "Blood Angels" as an airwing with stormravens and a bit of sanguinary guard action. However, all of these are distinctly different. I'd expect a primarch to cover everything their chapter and successors (flesh tearers?) embody. I think Guilliman does this well, but how would Sanguinius? How would the model represent all these aspects, let alone how would the rules?
It would be really, really awesome to have him back, but I think he should stay dead. Miss you Big S, miss you man.
I'm willing to bet that, GW being the business that they are, they're going to release the four primarchs tied to the four big chaos gods. Angron, Fulgrim, Mortarion, and Magnus, the latter two both already released obviously.
It is a logical step to assume the 'big four' on the loyalists side will also be the first to receive their primarchs; Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Ultramarines (Obviously once again on the Ultramarines having Guilliman released already).
These four loyalist armies make GW money. I'm willing to bet lots of money, and each primarch release thus far has sold well, selling out in many cases that I'm aware of, with people having to wait on a model to be produced in subsequent production runs to acquire. I know my local FLGS was only able to get 3 or 4 Mortarion boxes in and all were spoken for by local players.
People may hate the thought of it, but it's looking increasingly like Sanguinius will be resurrected or returned in some form via rebirth or being returned from the dead, perhaps as a darker, more sinister version of himself, battling the red thirst within himself, now amplified by the black rage, carved into his very genes by Horus's betrayal.
I like the prospect of it, to be honest. I also think, if propery explored, the return of Sangunius has a lot of potential to be an amazing bit of story.
We'll see. Odds are good we'll see the Lion, or Russ next. Sanguinius may return sooner rather than later though. It's new school GW, and curve balls may yet be thrown.
Hey all! I'm looking at potentially starting BA as my next new army. I really lack anything melee so wanted it to be a big focus of whatever list I put together. I've shoved together a little list of some of the models I really liked the look of as a basis for 1000 points:
- Lemartes
- Librarian Dreadnought
- 2 x 5 Death Company /w Jump Packs (mixed power weapons, 1 thunder hammer)
- 5 Sanguinary Guard
- Ball Predator with Assault Cannon and H.Bolters
Big problem I can already see is that I'd want more than half of these deploying in orbit, so would likely have to slog the SG up the board and hope they aren't shot to bits. This also comes in at around 950~ points, so any suggestions to move things around or top things up are welcome!
It's always nice to have some shiny cool toys but that tiny amount of miniatures means you'll be blasted off the board or swarmed with ease. The SG especially give an enemy an easy answer to "what should I shoot first?". Is your anti armour/MC basically smite and a thunder hammer?
4) At least in my mind, BA are not a "character army". They need regular boots on the ground, and it's the nature of these boots (assaulty, in your face, pretty codex compliant) that really defines the army, not solely their characters. (At least in my mind, feel free to correct that.)
I know what you're trying to say but we're a very character heavy army because at the moment we need all the special bubble-buffs to make our boots on the ground work. We've also got a whole bunch of special named and unique characters for the army, so that's my take on it all.
I'm with you though, I don't think Sanguinius should return. I do think Dante, the oldest living chapter master, should get a boost. I also would like to see the Sanguinor maybe rise to the level of an almost reincarnated Sanguinius. Who knows!? Should be interesting to see.
I'm just worried if every marine army but BA gets a lord of war level character we'll just fall off into obscurity, pretty gold suits and all.
I'm not sure we really need that much in the way of bubble-buffs. A few cheap characters with jump packs or slightly more expensive ones with terminator armor, and we're good. On a 2000 point list with one battallion and one vanguard detachment, you'll need maybe three characters to both fill out the HQ slots required, and that's about all you need for your army to perform well as well-- and none of them need to be super expensive special snowflake named characters.
Sanguinary priest, librarian, and chaplain/captain is a pretty good combination, and the three of them with jump packs are about 300 points-- 15% of your list, leaving the other 85% to be killy units these three support.
It would be really nice if some of the older model (MEPH PLEASE) got a redo, and our boys in gold got a boost.
Brother B does make a good point though. As a "big 4" army, it would suck if we didn't get some Lord of War... Dante for LoW?
Hopefully we get some compensation with Dante and friends in the codex. Red Thirst makes a good point, it *could* be good if his resurrection could was done well. I'm warming up to the idea, however GW would really need to get some quality writers on it. Hopefully the codex will clear this up?
Sanguinius coming back jumps the shark so emphatically the Sanguinius miniature would need a white tee and black leather jacket. Giving the Sanguinor the LoW treatment makes infinitely more sense. Ideally our patience with the index isn't "rewarded" with bonkers special characters and instead the codex contains a solid army with a plethora of balanced options rather than a cookie cutter list full of named characters.
Well, broke down and got a Librarian for my Knights of Blood. Been playing around with lists, thinking he will get a Jump Pack. Seems to make the mose sense to have him be mobile to support the army. Even thinking of dropping the Captain out of my list and going Chaplain and Librarian for my HQ slots.
Was thinking of giving this a try, I could probably lose a model here and there to fit in a Sanguinary Priest, but mine isn't modelled with a Jump Pack, so it would have to ride in the Razorback and walk over to the Assault Marines to buff them. Seems a waste at that point.
Tactical Squad [5 PL, 107pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Special weapon): Meltagun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Inferno pistol, Power axe
Tactical Squad [5 PL, 93pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Special weapon): Plasma gun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Combi-plasma
Tactical Squad [5 PL, 93pts]
. 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Special weapon): Plasma gun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Combi-plasma
+ Fast Attack +
Assault Squad [11 PL, 190pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Sergeant: Lightning Claw, Plasma pistol
. 7x Space Marine w/ bolt pistol and chainsword
. Space Marine w/ special pistol and chainsword: Plasma pistol
. Space Marine w/ special pistol and chainsword: Plasma pistol
Assault Squad [11 PL, 190pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Sergeant: Lightning Claw, Plasma pistol
. 7x Space Marine w/ bolt pistol and chainsword
. Space Marine w/ special pistol and chainsword: Plasma pistol
. Space Marine w/ special pistol and chainsword: Plasma pistol
+ Heavy Support +
Devastator Squad [11 PL, 204pts]
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun
Devastator Squad [11 PL, 204pts]
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun
+ Dedicated Transport +
Razorback [5 PL, 115pts]: Twin lascannon
Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Storm bolter
++ Total: [81 PL, 1500pts] ++
I get that Assault Marines seem pretty trash right now, but I want to see how they do with Librarian support.
Puganaut wrote: It would be really nice if some of the older model (MEPH PLEASE) got a redo, and our boys in gold got a boost.
Brother B does make a good point though. As a "big 4" army, it would suck if we didn't get some Lord of War... Dante for LoW?
Hopefully we get some compensation with Dante and friends in the codex. Red Thirst makes a good point, it *could* his resurrection could be done well. I'm warming up to the idea, however GW would really need to get some quality writers on it. Hopefully the codex will clear this up?
I want him to be resurrected, but not be the noble bright character he was in the Heresy.
I want him to be angry, resentful, and constantly staving off his rage at Horus's betrayal. I want to see what amounts to Death Company Sanguinius, prone to giving in to the Red Thirst and barely holding on through fits of the Black Rage that Horus himself sewed into Sanguinius's very genes.
He would see the Imperium and how far it has fallen from where it once was before Horus ignited the heresy that almost shattered the Imperium that he and his brother primarchs built alongside the emperor.
I want to watch Dante and Mephiston reconcile with their angelic primarch, once a noble and brilliant light in the darkness, instead raging mad with fury and only part of the time a picture of his once noble self. How do they, and the rest of the Blood Angels, deal with seeing their beloved primarch and gene father fall into madness and despair? Can Dante's temperance and Mephiston's conquering of the Black Rage help pull Sanguinius back to at least a shadow of his former glory?
I want to see this, as I feel like it would be riveting story telling woven within the greater story of the current minutes to midnight 40k plot and story advancement.
Just my opinion on that. Thanks for reading, and take it easy.
That would be interesting, I honestly wouldn't mind seeing essentially a Death Company Sanguinius. Unlike Rowboat who does a good amount of buffing to his army along with being good in combat, I wonder what a crazed combat only loyalist Primarch would be like? How many attacks would they give him? If he only has 9 Wounds to take advantage of the Character rules, how would they make him durable enough to stand being in the thick of the fighting in a game?
Or would he be designed as a fire and forget ballistic missile whose sole job is to crash into the enemy, killing all he can before death? I agree that if he was brought back, he should not be any where near what he was mentally.
Black Rage Sanguinius? Leading hundrets of DC into the Face of the enemy? Mephiston and Dante anime-like pulling him backwards? That would be so dumb - yet so awesome! xD
Hi guys I have quite a dramatic problem right now:
I've got 30 nice mkIII armour space marines from the burning of prospero set box and three forgeworld weapon kit, namely combi-weapons, plasma gun and heavy flamers. In my mind I wanted to have some nice looking and personalized tactical squads but what if, when our codex is out, assault troops will become again a valid troop choice? Or, even worse, what if we'll have some assault primaris who are 200 times better than our normal regular marinz and we ll succumb to them?
This game is of course also about hobby but I'd be so sad if said marinz would suddenly become useless (AND THESE FORGEWORD WEAPONS KIT ARE EXPENSIVE)
Lol Death Company Reincarnated-zombie-dust Sanguinius leading a force of "loyalist" world eaters with Dante trying to babysit the Primarch like Smithers to Mr. Burns would have me drive to the store for a spray can to cover all the red on my project table. Black...blue... I don't care. Any colour loyal to the Emperor to avenge the hypothetical death of the Blood Angels and kill the newly founded Shark Jumpers chapter that stole all their wargear :p
My favorite blood angel lists these days include basically 0 assault. This edition is almost all shooting based, especially for SM which have no fast monstrous creatures.
Storm ravens, heavy flamer Devs, plasma and every list includes Dante. If you want troops use Scions as our troops are pretty much garbage.
Hey guys,
Can anyone of you see any potent in a 3-5man company vet squads with jump packs, storm bolters and chainswords. I tried a 4man squad (84p) companying my two 3man plasma vets as a cheap vanguard and actually I was stunned how effective they were agaisnt meq. Just one game, but this 84p squad did more wounds than my rapid firing 3man plasma jump vets, although latters have a storm shield. Didn't have armored targets... So had to go against enemy dev squads..
21p, 4 shots at 12" and 3 attacks in combat. In a shooty game of 40k I'm not sure anymore should I bring these or DC with ccw&boltguns. Rough compare, but anyways what do you think, potent point wise?
I agree that our troops aren't the best, but I have had very positive results with 5 man Tactical Squads with Combi-Plasma & Plasma Gun. Two of them in a Rhino is a deceptively good and flexible firebase.
And even though Inferno Pistols are insanely expensive, I have had good results with in combat pistol sniping against Daemon Princes and characters. Along with a Meltagun in the squad, with two of those squads also in a Rhino has been very good at controlling/destroying fast elements of my opponents army (like Plague Drones).
Yeah, Scions could probably do that job better, but Toughness 4 and the 3+ Save has done wonders on keeping them alive. I really don't see my Tactical Squads as a liability anymore. It's just the rest of the army that seems lacking now. All of our specialist troops are far too expensive for what they bring to the fight, and pretty pillow fisted in a fight unless we throw tons of points in special weapons at them.
Xirax wrote: Hey guys,
Can anyone of you see any potent in a 3-5man company vet squads with jump packs, storm bolters and chainswords. I tried a 4man squad (84p) companying my two 3man plasma vets as a cheap vanguard and actually I was stunned how effective they were agaisnt meq. Just one game, but this 84p squad did more wounds than my rapid firing 3man plasma jump vets, although latters have a storm shield. Didn't have armored targets... So had to go against enemy dev squads..
21p, 4 shots at 12" and 3 attacks in combat. In a shooty game of 40k I'm not sure anymore should I bring these or DC with ccw&boltguns. Rough compare, but anyways what do you think, potent point wise?
To me the only real elite slot option that has always mananed to do his job in all games I played so far despite my absolutely garbage record (2W-12L) are company veterans with jump pack with plasmagun and either ss or chainsword. I back them up with a captain to reroll these ones because I always supercharge! You dont even need to drop 9" from enemy, you can still sit at 12" and unleash some nice damage onto basically anything. 20 plasma shots can annhilate hordes and do some pretty damage to vehicles as well. In a 100 power level game I always bring 2 5 men units and a captain.
Xirax wrote: Hey guys,
Can anyone of you see any potent in a 3-5man company vet squads with jump packs, storm bolters and chainswords. I tried a 4man squad (84p) companying my two 3man plasma vets as a cheap vanguard and actually I was stunned how effective they were agaisnt meq. Just one game, but this 84p squad did more wounds than my rapid firing 3man plasma jump vets, although latters have a storm shield. Didn't have armored targets... So had to go against enemy dev squads..
21p, 4 shots at 12" and 3 attacks in combat. In a shooty game of 40k I'm not sure anymore should I bring these or DC with ccw&boltguns. Rough compare, but anyways what do you think, potent point wise?
To me the only real elite slot option that has always managed to do his job in all games I played so far despite my absolutely garbage record (2W-12L) are company veterans with jump pack with plasmagun and either ss or chainsword. I back them up with a captain to reroll these ones because I always supercharge! You dont even need to drop 9" from enemy, you can still sit at 12" and unleash some nice damage onto basically anything. 20 plasma shots can annhilate hordes and do some pretty damage to vehicles as well. In a 100 power level game I always bring 2 5 men units and a captain.
Xirax wrote: Hey guys,
Can anyone of you see any potent in a 3-5man company vet squads with jump packs, storm bolters and chainswords. I tried a 4man squad (84p) companying my two 3man plasma vets as a cheap vanguard and actually I was stunned how effective they were agaisnt meq. Just one game, but this 84p squad did more wounds than my rapid firing 3man plasma jump vets, although latters have a storm shield. Didn't have armored targets... So had to go against enemy dev squads..
21p, 4 shots at 12" and 3 attacks in combat. In a shooty game of 40k I'm not sure anymore should I bring these or DC with ccw&boltguns. Rough compare, but anyways what do you think, potent point wise?
To me the only real elite slot option that has always mananed to do his job in all games I played so far despite my absolutely garbage record (2W-12L) are company veterans with jump pack with plasmagun and either ss or chainsword. I back them up with a captain to reroll these ones because I always supercharge! You dont even need to drop 9" from enemy, you can still sit at 12" and unleash some nice damage onto basically anything. 20 plasma shots can annhilate hordes and do some pretty damage to vehicles as well. In a 100 power level game I always bring 2 5 men units and a captain.
Yeah, I can see that being good, I just worry about building such specialized squads right now with our Codex coming in the future. Vanilla Marines lost a fair amount of options in their Codex, and I can only imagine that we will too if there isn't an out of the box miniature for that option.
The Sanguinor (6" +1A Bubble)
Chaplain (Reroll failed hits in Fight Phase)
Brother Corbulo (+1 S, on to hit rolls of 6 you generate another Attack)
with Vanguard Vets (Twin Lightning Claws)
Hear me out.....I know its pricey on points but I think its worth it. Most opponents don't see it coming and catches them off guard.
So I've been using Vanguard Vets, with the above mentioned bubbles, it gets super bloody. So, Vanguard 2A base, +1 for twin lightning claws, +1 from the sanguinor, so now your rocking S5 4As, rerolling failed hits, extra hits on 6s, and rerolling failed wounds. Don't forget to reroll your additional attacks. Often times I'm getting all MY base attacks and sometime more. Mathhammer says on average (not considering my additional attacks) my 10 man unit gets 29-36 wounds and a -2 AP.
Replace Chaplain with Astrath and use his "once per battle" ability......you now go to 32-39 wounds.
I tried to get a SM/BA librarian or Mephiston for +1A but it was already getting pricey in points.
Doubling the attacks for Vanguard make them awesome.
In essence, you could apply it to death company but your getting one more attack but NOT rerolls to wounds and I find it not worth it, IMHO.
Death Company [30 PL, 362pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company [20 PL, 182pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
The Sanguinor (6" +1A Bubble)
Chaplain (Reroll failed hits in Fight Phase)
Brother Corbulo (+1 S, on to hit rolls of 6 you generate another Attack)
with Vanguard Vets (Twin Lightning Claws)
Hear me out.....I know its pricey on points but I think its worth it. Most opponents don't see it coming and catches them off guard.
So I've been using Vanguard Vets, with the above mentioned bubbles, it gets super bloody. So, Vanguard 2A base, +1 for twin lightning claws, +1 from the sanguinor, so now your rocking S5 4As, rerolling failed hits, extra hits on 6s, and rerolling failed wounds. Don't forget to reroll your additional attacks. Often times I'm getting all MY base attacks and sometime more. Mathhammer says on average (not considering my additional attacks) my 10 man unit gets 29-36 wounds and a -2 AP.
Replace Chaplain with Astrath and use his "once per battle" ability......you now go to 32-39 wounds.
I tried to get a SM/BA librarian or Mephiston for +1A but it was already getting pricey in points.
Doubling the attacks for Vanguard make them awesome.
In essence, you could apply it to death company but your getting one more attack but NOT rerolls to wounds and I find it not worth it, IMHO.
If you have one 10 model unit of vanguard vets replace them with five units of company vets. Its a 2 model unit, same number of models (10), same points. But you get more sergeants, more attacks, for free. Remove one claw and replace it with a combibolter for 2 pts. You lose one attack, but you get four shots per model if you are within 12". The loss of attacks in CC is compensated by the additional sarges (almost) and you save 10 points.
Xirax wrote: Hey guys,
Can anyone of you see any potent in a 3-5man company vet squads with jump packs, storm bolters and chainswords. I tried a 4man squad (84p) companying my two 3man plasma vets as a cheap vanguard and actually I was stunned how effective they were agaisnt meq. Just one game, but this 84p squad did more wounds than my rapid firing 3man plasma jump vets, although latters have a storm shield. Didn't have armored targets... So had to go against enemy dev squads..
21p, 4 shots at 12" and 3 attacks in combat. In a shooty game of 40k I'm not sure anymore should I bring these or DC with ccw&boltguns. Rough compare, but anyways what do you think, potent point wise?
To me the only real elite slot option that has always mananed to do his job in all games I played so far despite my absolutely garbage record (2W-12L) are company veterans with jump pack with plasmagun and either ss or chainsword. I back them up with a captain to reroll these ones because I always supercharge! You dont even need to drop 9" from enemy, you can still sit at 12" and unleash some nice damage onto basically anything. 20 plasma shots can annhilate hordes and do some pretty damage to vehicles as well. In a 100 power level game I always bring 2 5 men units and a captain.
Yeah, I can see that being good, I just worry about building such specialized squads right now with our Codex coming in the future. Vanilla Marines lost a fair amount of options in their Codex, and I can only imagine that we will too if there isn't an out of the box miniature for that option.
I am totally on board with this tactic, I've been backing those plasma vets up with Inceptors with Assault bolters inside that captain bubble as well. I do give the vet sgt a power axe.
@ NH Gunsmith: it doesnt really matter as GW stated that one can use any release they'll be doing during the whole 8th edition and index imperium 1 is one of them so if something change concerning wargear for these company veterans I'll simply get back to the index
Spado wrote: @ NH Gunsmith: it doesnt really matter as GW stated that one can use any release they'll be doing during the whole 8th edition and index imperium 1 is one of them so if something change concerning wargear for these company veterans I'll simply get back to the index
Very true, I am probably still going to wait before committing to a build like that though. I really just want to bring two books to the table, the BRB and my Codex.
The Sanguinor (6" +1A Bubble)
Chaplain (Reroll failed hits in Fight Phase)
Brother Corbulo (+1 S, on to hit rolls of 6 you generate another Attack)
with Vanguard Vets (Twin Lightning Claws)
Hear me out.....I know its pricey on points but I think its worth it. Most opponents don't see it coming and catches them off guard.
So I've been using Vanguard Vets, with the above mentioned bubbles, it gets super bloody. So, Vanguard 2A base, +1 for twin lightning claws, +1 from the sanguinor, so now your rocking S5 4As, rerolling failed hits, extra hits on 6s, and rerolling failed wounds. Don't forget to reroll your additional attacks. Often times I'm getting all MY base attacks and sometime more. Mathhammer says on average (not considering my additional attacks) my 10 man unit gets 29-36 wounds and a -2 AP.
Replace Chaplain with Astrath and use his "once per battle" ability......you now go to 32-39 wounds.
I tried to get a SM/BA librarian or Mephiston for +1A but it was already getting pricey in points.
Doubling the attacks for Vanguard make them awesome.
In essence, you could apply it to death company but your getting one more attack but NOT rerolls to wounds and I find it not worth it, IMHO.
If you have one 10 model unit of vanguard vets replace them with five units of company vets. Its a 2 model unit, same number of models (10), same points. But you get more sergeants, more attacks, for free. Remove one claw and replace it with a combibolter for 2 pts. You lose one attack, but you get four shots per model if you are within 12". The loss of attacks in CC is compensated by the additional sarges (almost) and you save 10 points.
This leaves you vulnerable to first blood. Never thought of giving that a try, ill look into that. And did you mean stormbolter?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
p5freak wrote: You have to use the most recent rules. If the codex blood angels comes out, and veterans get nerfed, you cant go back to the index.
This is correct. If there is something that is NOT in the Codex AND is in the Index, you can use that item in the index to add to your army. Some space marine characters on Bikes did not make it in the Codex, and GW has given some clarification on this matter.
Unless there's no option for it in the current/updated codex that does exist in the Index (older model options), at which point you then use the entry in the Index for that model.
This leaves you vulnerable to first blood. Never thought of giving that a try, ill look into that. And did you mean stormbolter?
Only if you dont put them in a transport. Five 2 men units of CVs in a rhino count as one unit for deployment. Stormbolter and combibolter are the same. CVs cannot use stormbolters, according to the rules. But, doesnt really matter, its the same weapon, just a different name.
Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't Yvraine and Cawl on their way to Baal?
I know people have speculated the resurrection of Sanguinius however Yvraine didn't exactly resurrect Guiliman, his soul was still in his body. Sanguinius's soul isn't in his body. So unless his soul can be located I cant see it happening.
However it is possible that the sanguinor is an embodiment of Sanguinius's soul, the sanguinor only shows in time of desperation. Maybe, just maybe...
I could be wrong about the above, i'm not up to scratch with my lore just from what i've heard.
I am open minded in the resurrection of our primarch as long as its an extremely well written story. If they want to bring him back just for the sake of it, put him in the horus heresy and be done with it.
NH Gunsmith wrote: So, quick question on Baal Predators. Other then fluff reasons, what reason do we have to run a Baal Pred over a Twin Assault Cannon Razorback?
NH Gunsmith wrote: So, quick question on Baal Predators. Other then fluff reasons, what reason do we have to run a Baal Pred over a Twin Assault Cannon Razorback?
None. All BA stuff in the index is overpriced.
That's kind of what I figured, getting ready to finish assembling a Razorback, and considered making it a Baal Predator. Just couldn't justify the Pred over a Razorback, since it also has a transport capacity.
Well, I discovered just how great our Sanguinary Priests are... When I managed to make some insane charge rolls with my Assault Marines, a couple of Tactical Squads and two Rhinos, and was able to fully surround both a Land Raider and Land Raider Crusader in the same charge phase that were a few inches apart from each other.
Yeah, a Raider still has a 2+ save. But between the nearby Chaplain, a Librarian for the extra attacks, and the Sanguinary Priest making it so my guys are Strength 5, I was able to force through wounds by making tons of attacks. It was game over at that point though and he conceded on the top of turn 2 since one Raider was at 5 wounds, and the other had 4 Inferno Pistols and some Powerfists in melee with it.
My Twin Assault Cannon Razorbacks, Dread, and two Devastator Squads were also staring down the scraps of his two Scout squads and anti-air tank that were too far away from his Raiders to be of any use.
Probably the cheapest feeling win I have ever had, but a win is a win I guess.
It felt great I am not going to lie, both Raiders were filled with troops. The Crusader had 7 Hammernators, a Librarian and a Lieutenant, the other one had 9 decked out Vanguard Vets and a Captain. Once he realized what I did, and what was about to happen he quit. To make matters worse, I had stolen the initiative that game too.
The last two games have given me a real good feeling about how the army is starting to play as I tweak it. Shoot, I can't wait to see what our rules are. The game before this was my final game in our weekly tournament last Saturday against Ad Mech, and even though I lost that game due to time, if we would have gotten to play Turn 5 it would have been game over. My Dreadnought went on a Rampage, tearing apart three Kastellan Robots, Cawl, and 2 5 man Vanguard Squads. I still had about half of my army, and he had 2 dudes left on an objective. He slow player me, but not on purpose, he hasn't run a lot of his units yet and was getting used to their new rules. It didn't how the tournament did it's scoring was a bit goofy.
It was 10 points for the main objective (Big Guns Never Tire)
6 points for the secondary (Control the center of the board)
And 1 point for the tertiary objectives (Can't remeber what they were)
I lost by one point since he killed both of my Devastator Squads, got First Blood, and he only had 1 heavy support choice and had an objective.
I had Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker, "King of the Hill", and an objective. The rest of my army had his two dudes circled and was about to kill them though.
The power difference between Codex and Index armies is pretty noticeable.
Yeah, the difference is immense-- and, annoyingly, a lot of people who use the codex haven't even noticed how huge a gap there is. I really hope Chapter Approved narrows the gap.
Whew, we've fallen to the second page of threads. We gotta up our post numbers! With what I have seen from the new Astra Whatsitsnuts Codex, I have actually decided to keep my Knights of Blood as my main army. Call me a sadist or glutton for punishment, but I am enjoying my Marines more than my Guard right now. Each win feels much more gratifying.
What other knowledge have you guys been able to pick up in the quest for victory with your Blood Angels?
Played two games against the new IG book, one win, one loss.
The biggest problem I had during the loss was their command punisher (49 shots, even with 9 made at -1 to hit, is utterly brutal and my list lacks in long-ranged anti-tank; my missile launchers lived up to the miss in their name).
I managed to win fairly handily on the second game by playing objectives, my death company keeping their tank tied up and otherwise I just ground through their infantry as they tried to knock my scouts off of the objectives I deployed on to.
Latest findings: Don't run an all-dreadnought army. It is not good.
Besides that, same as before. Stormravens and other shooty things are great, it's just inferior to run them as BA given the lack of codex bonuses. My experience continues to suggest that unique BA units are almost all overpriced and not unique enough to warrant a different playstyle compared to SM.
That's not to say that I won't try to make it work! My latest project involves a second Stormraven and more ass termies. Death Company seem to get diminishing returns with greater numbers given that extra damage isn't important enough and the distraction effect/deep strike threat is roughly the same, a smaller contingent could have a place.
Playing 3k points tonight, bringing 6 assassins and a bunch of other dakka. Up against 1500pts of guard and 1500pts of death guard. should be an interesting game.
Has anyone been using the Warlord traits and stratagems in the space marine codex?
My mates have said that as they're for Adeptus astartes the BA/DA/SW can use them as well. Same for the strategy cards as there non-specific. Same goes for the non-specific relics?
They say the same for the points as well. I.e. the space marine index has been fully replaced by the codex. We now go to the SM codex for points.
I, being the BA player of the group, remain unconvinced. Although we could do with the help. What do you all think?
kryczek wrote: Has anyone been using the Warlord traits and stratagems in the space marine codex?
My mates have said that as they're for Adeptus astartes the BA/DA/SW can use them as well. Same for the strategy cards as there non-specific. Same goes for the non-specific relics?
They say the same for the points as well. I.e. the space marine index has been fully replaced by the codex. We now go to the SM codex for points.
I, being the BA player of the group, remain unconvinced. Although we could do with the help. What do you all think?
If my reading is correct we cannot use the codex as we will be getting a specific one ourselves. Index army for the time being.
If my reading is correct we cannot use the codex as we will be getting a specific one ourselves. Index army for the time being.
Thats right. No SM codex for us. We have to wait for our codex. If you want to play with the SM codex you can always make your own red space marine chapter, and use your BA as normal SM.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Whew, we've fallen to the second page of threads. We gotta up our post numbers! With what I have seen from the new Astra Whatsitsnuts Codex, I have actually decided to keep my Knights of Blood as my main army. Call me a sadist or glutton for punishment, but I am enjoying my Marines more than my Guard right now. Each win feels much more gratifying.
What other knowledge have you guys been able to pick up in the quest for victory with your Blood Angels?
There's not that much to say right now. There just isn't.
my 3k (actually 3200pts) list, they gave me an additional 200pts because they both have codexes currently. also my assassins are in a vanguard detachment but battle scribe didnt let me move things around that way. C&C welcome
Puganaut wrote: @Melissa have you tried running any infernos as of yet? Personally I'm unconvinced, but inferno in assault against a punisher sounds pretty brutal.
I love my inferno pistols. They do so much work for me. I hope they get a price drop though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But, I have noticed a huge difference in the usefulness of my Assault Marines now that I broke down and got a jump pack Librarian. They are now pretty much earning their points back most games if I keep a Chaplain nearby as well. Our Psychic Discipline is absolutely fantastic.
I am excited for our points drops, because I am going to end up running them as Vanguard Vets with the extra points.
Yes, we really need to have one or two characters supporting out assaults to make the best use of them. Chaplain and librarian, or chaplain and sanguinary priest are both good combinations.
Recap on my game last night, we played relic and I took the win. real MVPs were my inceptors and sang guard who deep striked right on the relic and got it out of there. However the eversors more than made their points back by taking out pasc, a squad of conscrpits and a squad of poxwalkers. the vindicators also made their points back by taking out two commissars. Overall happy with the way assassins worked with my army
I posted my list on the last page, 3,000pts only took us about 3.5 hrs to play through, and I've seen many games getting into the 2500 range in my local meta. the creep is real with this edition
Automatically Appended Next Post: But, I have noticed a huge difference in the usefulness of my Assault Marines now that I broke down and got a jump pack Librarian. They are now pretty much earning their points back most games if I keep a Chaplain nearby as well. Our Psychic Discipline is absolutely fantastic.
I am excited for our points drops, because I am going to end up running them as Vanguard Vets with the extra points.
I'd be super keen to see vanguard vets, love the models and playstyle. I kinda see them as halfway between sang guard and regular assaulties, which seems to be the best of both worlds. I hadn't really considered them (I'm a big death company advocate) but will definitely have to give them a try, especially post codex release.
I think the BA librarian is a hidden gem. Blood boil isn't much, but the other two are absolutely insane. I think a libby would make a reasonably expensive unit of DC incredibly effective. Rage gives them 5 attacks on the charge with a shainsword, which is nuts, especially re-rolling with lemartes and/or +1 strength priest. Shield absolutely fixes their survivability issues.
I might try running a libby/lemartes/priest HQ with death company. It's sinking a lot of points into one basket, but might be worthwhile?
Automatically Appended Next Post: But, I have noticed a huge difference in the usefulness of my Assault Marines now that I broke down and got a jump pack Librarian. They are now pretty much earning their points back most games if I keep a Chaplain nearby as well. Our Psychic Discipline is absolutely fantastic.
I am excited for our points drops, because I am going to end up running them as Vanguard Vets with the extra points.
I'd be super keen to see vanguard vets, love the models and playstyle. I kinda see them as halfway between sang guard and regular assaulties, which seems to be the best of both worlds. I hadn't really considered them (I'm a big death company advocate) but will definitely have to give them a try, especially post codex release.
I think the BA librarian is a hidden gem. Blood boil isn't much, but the other two are absolutely insane. I think a libby would make a reasonably expensive unit of DC incredibly effective. Rage gives them 5 attacks on the charge with a shainsword, which is nuts, especially re-rolling with lemartes and/or +1 strength priest. Shield absolutely fixes their survivability issues.
I might try running a libby/lemartes/priest HQ with death company. It's sinking a lot of points into one basket, but might be worthwhile?
It's good if the enemy doesn't have a way to bubble wrap things, or if the rest of your list is strong enough for the bomb to hold off a turn or so until a flank opens up. It might just be because i play SM and always have scouts, but I don't feel comfortable putting too much stock in any kind of deepstrike alpha strike. The other issue is that against things that are good at killing infantry, like assault cannons, heavy bolters, etc, death company die almost as easy as normal marines. So unless that first charge is absolutely army destoying-ly devastating, i have a hard time seeing the them not get wiped out by the inevitable counter punch.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But, I have noticed a huge difference in the usefulness of my Assault Marines now that I broke down and got a jump pack Librarian. They are now pretty much earning their points back most games if I keep a Chaplain nearby as well. Our Psychic Discipline is absolutely fantastic.
I am excited for our points drops, because I am going to end up running them as Vanguard Vets with the extra points.
I'd be super keen to see vanguard vets, love the models and playstyle. I kinda see them as halfway between sang guard and regular assaulties, which seems to be the best of both worlds. I hadn't really considered them (I'm a big death company advocate) but will definitely have to give them a try, especially post codex release.
I think the BA librarian is a hidden gem. Blood boil isn't much, but the other two are absolutely insane. I think a libby would make a reasonably expensive unit of DC incredibly effective. Rage gives them 5 attacks on the charge with a shainsword, which is nuts, especially re-rolling with lemartes and/or +1 strength priest. Shield absolutely fixes their survivability issues.
I might try running a libby/lemartes/priest HQ with death company. It's sinking a lot of points into one basket, but might be worthwhile?
It's good if the enemy doesn't have a way to bubble wrap things, or if the rest of your list is strong enough for the bomb to hold off a turn or so until a flank opens up. It might just be because i play SM and always have scouts, but I don't feel comfortable putting too much stock in any kind of deepstrike alpha strike. The other issue is that against things that are good at killing infantry, like assault cannons, heavy bolters, etc, death company die almost as easy as normal marines. So unless that first charge is absolutely army destoying-ly devastating, i have a hard time seeing the them not get wiped out by the inevitable counter punch.
Well, we have been starting to use more terrain on our tables at the local store. I got pretty tired of just having open shooting galleries with a woods template and a building or two. So I was cramming more stuff on the table to break up lines of sight, and people have begun doing the same since it looked like so much fun.
It has seriously helped the survivability of my Assault Marines, and I don't Deep Strike them in anymore. The 12" move (plus Advancing if it is needed), from terrain piece to terrain piece has made them a real survivable threat. The 4+ Invul has been great too, I normally drive my Razorback towards what I want the Assault Marines to charge (the Razorback has an Inferno Pistol/Meltagun Tac Squad plus a Sanguinary Priest), and have my Assaults bounce their way up the flank and hit it when the Priest will be in range to buff them. The extra attack from the Librarian and rerolls from the Chaplain have made them effective at killing a lot of stuff.
The nice thing is that if I keep the characters back a bit (since both the Librarian and Chaplain really don't hit all that terribly hard), with how cheap the Assault Marines are, it isn't that bad of a loss if they die. The characters can jump away and support other elements of the army.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But, I have noticed a huge difference in the usefulness of my Assault Marines now that I broke down and got a jump pack Librarian. They are now pretty much earning their points back most games if I keep a Chaplain nearby as well. Our Psychic Discipline is absolutely fantastic.
I am excited for our points drops, because I am going to end up running them as Vanguard Vets with the extra points.
I'd be super keen to see vanguard vets, love the models and playstyle. I kinda see them as halfway between sang guard and regular assaulties, which seems to be the best of both worlds. I hadn't really considered them (I'm a big death company advocate) but will definitely have to give them a try, especially post codex release.
I think the BA librarian is a hidden gem. Blood boil isn't much, but the other two are absolutely insane. I think a libby would make a reasonably expensive unit of DC incredibly effective. Rage gives them 5 attacks on the charge with a shainsword, which is nuts, especially re-rolling with lemartes and/or +1 strength priest. Shield absolutely fixes their survivability issues.
I might try running a libby/lemartes/priest HQ with death company. It's sinking a lot of points into one basket, but might be worthwhile?
It's good if the enemy doesn't have a way to bubble wrap things, or if the rest of your list is strong enough for the bomb to hold off a turn or so until a flank opens up. It might just be because i play SM and always have scouts, but I don't feel comfortable putting too much stock in any kind of deepstrike alpha strike. The other issue is that against things that are good at killing infantry, like assault cannons, heavy bolters, etc, death company die almost as easy as normal marines. So unless that first charge is absolutely army destoying-ly devastating, i have a hard time seeing the them not get wiped out by the inevitable counter punch.
Well, we have been starting to use more terrain on our tables at the local store. I got pretty tired of just having open shooting galleries with a woods template and a building or two. So I was cramming more stuff on the table to break up lines of sight, and people have begun doing the same since it looked like so much fun.
It has seriously helped the survivability of my Assault Marines, and I don't Deep Strike them in anymore. The 12" move (plus Advancing if it is needed), from terrain piece to terrain piece has made them a real survivable threat. The 4+ Invul has been great too, I normally drive my Razorback towards what I want the Assault Marines to charge (the Razorback has an Inferno Pistol/Meltagun Tac Squad plus a Sanguinary Priest), and have my Assaults bounce their way up the flank and hit it when the Priest will be in range to buff them. The extra attack from the Librarian and rerolls from the Chaplain have made them effective at killing a lot of stuff.
The nice thing is that if I keep the characters back a bit (since both the Librarian and Chaplain really don't hit all that terribly hard), with how cheap the Assault Marines are, it isn't that bad of a loss if they die. The characters can jump away and support other elements of the army.
Ah, i was referring more to the death company bomb with the 3 characters. Sorry if that wasn't clear. With enough LOS terrain i definitely think that mass assault marines could be decent enough in a casual environment. If only they had their 5th edition durability with so much access to 5+ FNP they would be much better.
Company Veterans [5 PL, 52pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Veteran Sergeant: Power sword, Storm shield
Death Company [10 PL, 122pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company Dreadnought [11 PL, 217pts]: Furioso fist (pair), Heavy flamer, Magna-grapple, Meltagun
Sanguinary Guard Ancient [6 PL, 126pts]: Death mask, Inferno pistol, Power fist
++ Total: [113 PL, 2000pts] ++
Planning on keeping the captain with the melta tactical squad in one assback, Mephiston with the heavy flamer tactical squad in the other assback, all DC units in the Stormraven, scouts in concealed positions, and deep strike the rest.
Haven’t really run Company Vets as the 2-unit squad, but thought it would be a good way to get an additional cp with the second vanguard detachment.
Company Veterans [5 PL, 52pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Veteran Sergeant: Power sword, Storm shield
Death Company [10 PL, 122pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company Dreadnought [11 PL, 217pts]: Furioso fist (pair), Heavy flamer, Magna-grapple, Meltagun
Sanguinary Guard Ancient [6 PL, 126pts]: Death mask, Inferno pistol, Power fist
++ Total: [113 PL, 2000pts] ++
Planning on keeping the captain with the melta tactical squad in one assback, Mephiston with the heavy flamer tactical squad in the other assback, all DC units in the Stormraven, scouts in concealed positions, and deep strike the rest.
Haven’t really run Company Vets as the 2-unit squad, but thought it would be a good way to get an additional cp with the second vanguard detachment.
Any thoughts?
I think you don't have enough anti-tank weapons beside the stormraven which will be targeted hard really quickly. I'd suggest to bring either a full laser or full missile launcher devastator squad to sit in the backfield preferably onto a ruin (if available). I'm absolutely not convincted by the sanguinary guards: they are really expensive and the two wounds dont really help tehir survivability since there are too many weapons which can one-shot them (hello, it's me, I m plasma!). To help your stormraven bring the pain and unleash his cargo onto the foe, I'd take some nasty jump pack company veterans with plasma-gun (I'd go with 2 squads) and ss accompained by a jump pack captain to punch a hole and forcing the opponent to make a decision whether to fully commit onto the stormraven or the company veterans.
My two cents. Good luck and let us know. For Sanguinius!
Company Veterans [5 PL, 52pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Veteran Sergeant: Power sword, Storm shield
Death Company [10 PL, 122pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company Dreadnought [11 PL, 217pts]: Furioso fist (pair), Heavy flamer, Magna-grapple, Meltagun
Sanguinary Guard Ancient [6 PL, 126pts]: Death mask, Inferno pistol, Power fist
++ Total: [113 PL, 2000pts] ++
Planning on keeping the captain with the melta tactical squad in one assback, Mephiston with the heavy flamer tactical squad in the other assback, all DC units in the Stormraven, scouts in concealed positions, and deep strike the rest.
Haven’t really run Company Vets as the 2-unit squad, but thought it would be a good way to get an additional cp with the second vanguard detachment.
Any thoughts?
I think you don't have enough anti-tank weapons beside the stormraven which will be targeted hard really quickly. I'd suggest to bring either a full laser or full missile launcher devastator squad to sit in the backfield preferably onto a ruin (if available). I'm absolutely not convincted by the sanguinary guards: they are really expensive and the two wounds dont really help tehir survivability since there are too many weapons which can one-shot them (hello, it's me, I m plasma!). To help your stormraven bring the pain and unleash his cargo onto the foe, I'd take some nasty jump pack company veterans with plasma-gun (I'd go with 2 squads) and ss accompained by a jump pack captain to punch a hole and forcing the opponent to make a decision whether to fully commit onto the stormraven or the company veterans.
My two cents. Good luck and let us know. For Sanguinius!
Spado
I agree, not enough AT or high damage ranged weapons. I include 2 8 man Devastator Squads (now with Cherubs) in all of my lists. They have been invaluable for taking out hard targets, or for controlling my opponents movement as they try to avoid getting blasted with heavy weapons.
I also agree that expensive 2 wound models (Sanguinary Guard) don't seem terribly worth it now with how many armies have access to and are spamming plasma and cheap 2 damage weapons. I don't bother with 2 wound models in power armour unless they have a decent invul, they juat drop too quickly.
So two wound units such as sanguinary guard supported by a sanguinary priest who can heal/revive is a bad idea? Gotcha.
Don’t have any devastators, so I guess that will be a future purchase. The only other heavy item like that I can use for tomorrow is a twin las cannon for a razorback.
I was hoping the meltas between the tactical squad and the dread would be sufficient to supplement the Stormraven.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I can do something like this:
Death Company [20 PL, 282pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Inferno pistol, Power fist
. Death Company Marine: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Plasma pistol, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company Dreadnought [11 PL, 212pts]: Furioso fist (pair), Heavy flamer, Meltagun, Smoke launchers
Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 135pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: Power axe, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: Plasma pistol, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Veteran Sergeant: 2x Lightning Claw
A priest is a bad idea because he only brings back models at 4+ in the next round and only with 1 wound. If he fails the roll he does nothing for the rest of the turn. And he costs points. It's better to bring more models for the points the priest costs from turn 1. Exceptions are very expensive models like inceptors.
Hmm, I was under the impression our buffs were BAs strength. Particularly against my usual opponent who runs Death Guard since a lot of his units are t5, I’ve found the extra strength helpful. I guess tournament building is much more shooting than anything, huh?
I don't think anything is really wrong with having a priest as long as you have enough models that are going to be in assault. Things like chainsword VV and death company benefit a lot from the +1 str.
What you don't want to rely on the priest for is healing things. Most units you can heal only have 2 wounds, and enough things do 2 damage (plasma, auto cannons, grav, etc) that you don't get to use the normal heal that much, or it ends up not mattering, and the 4+ to bring a guy back is not reliable (and probably not worth re-rolling with CP).
The issue with sang guard, like terminators, primaris marines, and any other "heavy" infantry with 2 wounds, is their durability hinges upon the enemy firing single damage weapons at them. Plasma and other 2 damage weapons are so prevalent in the current meta that if the enemy needs to kill one of these units, he most likely can point some 2 damage weapons at them, making their durability similar to that of marines (though sang guard do have a better save). For this reason i don't see them as being worth their points in most cases. 3 wounds is where things start to be truly durable, as it still takes two successful wounds from a 2 damage weapon to kill them, making things like cents, paladins, oblits, and TWC actually live up to being "heavy" infantry.
I think buff are SUPPOSED to be the strength of the BA, but they cost too many points to field atm. Melee is also a dumpster fire, so I've turned my list into a shooting list.
It really opened my eyes to competitive play. As much as people talk about it on here, it really takes getting a good kick in the ass to learn.
But now I completely understand all the complaints about the chapter. It’s one thing if you’re playing fluff games for fun at the house. But outside of that, there’s a glaring flaw, and it’s not just the geneseed.
Now I’m coming up with lists that lack any BA-specific units, and I’m wondering, what’s the point? I have a Stormtalon I can never use. I want to run a lieutenant, but we’re stuck with the primaris variety. The op razorbacks makes me thankful that I magnetized the side sponsons on my Baal pred.
I totally see why everyone was saying devistators. And scouts seem much more useful than tacticals when filling in battalions.
This is what I’ve come up with, but aside from Mephiston, nothing is stopping me from playing as another chapter:
Spoiler:
++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [39 PL, 847pts] ++
+ Flyer +
Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 326pts]: Twin lascannon, Twin multi-melta, Two Hurricane Bolters, Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers
Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 326pts]: Twin lascannon, Twin multi-melta, Two Hurricane Bolters, Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers
Stormtalon Gunship [9 PL, 195pts]: Twin assault cannon, Two Lascannons
Devastator Squad [7 PL, 115pts] . Space Marine: Lascannon
. Space Marine: Lascannon
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
Devastator Squad [7 PL, 115pts] . Space Marine: Lascannon
. Space Marine: Lascannon
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
Devastator Squad [7 PL, 82pts] . Space Marine: Heavy flamer
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
I pretty much just pull my BA out for friendly games (which is primarily all I play now), still lose quite a bit even then. The wins with them feel great though, and the games are tough. But, if I REALLY need a win to break a big losing streak, I just pull my Guard out and savagely crush a few opponents before switching back to my BA.
We're running a campaign and I haven't won a single game so far, I'm always getting tabled with this army (which is the only one I have lulz, I should definitely start something else).
I played a 50 power game this Friday against deathguard. I was basically bringing an ultramarine list with the following.
Patrol detachment:
Primaris Lieut
Commander Dante
scout squad
2x devastator squad full misile launcher
3 razorback with assault cannon
He had:
demon prince with wings with FnP 4+ and an armor which deals mortal wounds to you when you succesfully hit him
malignant plagecaster
the new tank
2 units of plague marines with plasma-gun
a drone
10 pox
I managed to steal the initiative (that's why I manged to play until turn 4 i guess lol) and kill his tank and the plaguecaster with scouts. I was feeling pretty confident until i decided to unleash commander Dante to protect my backline against his daemon prince: he smashed me and managed to table me after easily. I really don't know what to do: next week I'll be playin a 100 power game against a tau player and I'm already feeling so sad right now xD
I've had a 50/50 win/loss rate, but my BA list is not how most people build their BA-- it's an Archangels Orbital Intervention Force supported by scout snipers with missile launchers. And I think it's mostly because my opponents don't build to counter terminators (they're usually surprised to see them at all).
Melissia wrote: I've had a 50/50 win/loss rate, but my BA list is not how most people build their BA-- it's an Archangels Orbital Intervention Force supported by scout snipers with missile launchers. And I think it's mostly because my opponents don't build to counter terminators (they're usually surprised to see them at all).
If you use Termies, what is the advantage you take from the BA special rules?
Melissia wrote: I've had a 50/50 win/loss rate, but my BA list is not how most people build their BA-- it's an Archangels Orbital Intervention Force supported by scout snipers with missile launchers. And I think it's mostly because my opponents don't build to counter terminators (they're usually surprised to see them at all).
If you use Termies, what is the advantage you take from the BA special rules?
A Sanguinary priest can make their hammers/fists hit on strength 10 (or nine maybe, I forgot if the +1s comes before or after the x2 modifier), as well as make their claws hit on strength 5, and the +1 attack librarian power is still really good. Other than that, none at the moment. Still, lightning claws that wound marines on a 3+ and thunder hammers that wound T5 on a 2+ is pretty sweet, especially combined with a chaplain and librarian giving rerolls and an extra attack per model, respectively.
Mostly though, I like BA and the unique BA terminator models are beautiful.
I played a 50 power game this Friday against deathguard. I was basically bringing an ultramarine list with the following.
Patrol detachment:
Primaris Lieut
Commander Dante
scout squad
2x devastator squad full misile launcher
3 razorback with assault cannon
Pretty much everything Deathguard is OP.
Weapons are free if you play power level. Go all lascans on the devs. Lascans are better than rocket launchers. Drop one squad of devs and drop the scouts. Also drop Commander Dante. He is way to expensive for what he offers. Bring 5-10 company veterans with JP, combiplasma, poweraxe and a captain with the same gear, but with a powerfist or thunderhammer instead the poweraxe. Deepstrike, overcharge plasma, reroll 1s and watch the demon prince getting burned by plasma. If he is not dead charge him and finish him in CC. If you have pts left try another captain, he stays with the lieutenant with the razorbacks to reroll 1s to hit and 1s to wound.
I’ve been running Raven Guard until the codex lands and have been so much happier with my game options and play since. My preds are all painted red though so I’m still hoping we will get a codex soon. Stratagems and tactics are seriously needed before I dust off my BA hoards again.
Some stratagems are really good, some are ok, and some are not worth the point cost. I expect our codex in december. I guess because we are red, like santa claus
If they don't give BA something to cut through screening units with reasonable efficiency, I don't see what else matters. And before others lose their mind, DC and tac marines do not have reasonable efficiency.
There was another BA player at the event running 2 ravens, 5 razorbacks, culexis, celestine, 5 primaris psykers, 3 scout units and dante. He came in first, but he’s part of a competitive 40k group in my area.
senor_flojo wrote: There was another BA player at the event running 2 ravens, 5 razorbacks, culexis, celestine, 5 primaris psykers, 3 scout units and dante. He came in first, but he’s part of a competitive 40k group in my area.
That kind of list is the SM-based list to run right now, unfortunately there's no real reason to run it as BA. He has Dante but he would probably be better off with a JP captain and the chapter master stratagem. Any chapter tactic is better than none. I guess that player had models painted up as BA and couldn't/didn't want to run them as red marines.
senor_flojo wrote: There was another BA player at the event running 2 ravens, 5 razorbacks, culexis, celestine, 5 primaris psykers, 3 scout units and dante. He came in first, but he’s part of a competitive 40k group in my area.
p5freak wrote: Some stratagems are really good, some are ok, and some are not worth the point cost. I expect our codex in december. I guess because we are red, like santa claus
p5freak wrote: Some stratagems are really good, some are ok, and some are not worth the point cost. I expect our codex in december. I guess because we are red, like santa claus
And we deliver presents.
And those presents are easy wins for our opponents.
Martel732 wrote: If they don't give BA something to cut through screening units with reasonable efficiency, I don't see what else matters. And before others lose their mind, DC and tac marines do not have reasonable efficiency.
5 model unit company veterans, JP, stormbolters, chainswords. 20 S4 AP0 ranged attacks, 16 S4 AP0 CC attacks, 105 pts.
I'd actually favor death company with boltguns and chainswords more than that, but the storm bolters do have more firepower before the charge, thus lessening the impact of overwatch.
I'm actually planning on working on a 10 man death company squad without Jump Packs, armed with Bolters and Chainswords (With a Powerfist and a power sword or axe) mixed in that will deploy out of a Drop Pod. They hit the table and deploy out of the pod, next to a 10 man Jump Pack Death Company, led by Lemartes, sporting mostly pistols and Chainswords, arriving from Deep Strike at the same time. In addition, I'll have a Sanguinary Novitiate and a Sanguinary Priest I'll use to help offer buffs and try to bring models that die back from the dead.
I'll be using a Vanguard Detachment for this force, and it clocks in at 852 points, including the Drop Pod, for 20 Death Company Marines (10 with Jump Packs), the Jump Pack Sanguinary High Priest, Sanguinary Novitiate, and Lemartes.
No special pistols on here, it's just bolt guns on the drop pod Death Company, with an extra 2x Axes and 2x Powerfists. The Jump Pack Death Company squad (led by Lemartes) will have 2x Power Swords & Bolt Pistols, 1x Power Fist (+ Bolt Gun), and 1x Thunder Hammer.
I would take the remaining points, and build out something to go with them as an allied force, be it my Vostroyan Guard, or more Blood Angels in a Battalion Detachment.
I feel like dropping that over on a weak flank, especially with additional psychic support being available, would be able to overwhelm and put good damage on a target with the combination of a lot of ST:4 shooting followed up by a healthy dose of ST:5+ re-rolling to-hit attacks from the Death Company that are able to (hopefully) reliably get into combat with a target or two with the charge re-rolls Lemartes gives.
It's a concept I'm going to be working on soonish I hope. Fingers crossed I'll get it painted up at some point in the future.
A drop pod ? You are kidding right ?? The pod is 105 pts. Giving the 10 model DC unit JP is only 30 pts. You are wasting 75 pts. A novitiate ? He is 55 pts. You can get three more DC models for that. Why would you want to bring back one model in the next turn (only on a 4+, if you fail the novi does nothing), when you can start with three more from the beginning ??
If you really want to play DC without jump packs, embark them onto a rhino and that's it. What's the reason to play a drop pod? You have to place it 9" from the enemy and if you disembark you still have to place all your models 9" away. Blood angels already suck and if you waste your points on useless units you won't end up in a good spot.
And then I don't really understand why in general one wants to shoot the unit one aims to charge: if one kills a couple of guys of that unit one might not be able to charge since the enemy can remove casualties as he wishes.
p5freak wrote: A drop pod ? You are kidding right ?? The pod is 105 pts. Giving the 10 model DC unit JP is only 30 pts. You are wasting 75 pts. A novitiate ? He is 55 pts. You can get three more DC models for that. Why would you want to bring back one model in the next turn (only on a 4+, if you fail the novi does nothing), when you can start with three more from the beginning ??
You don't have to agree with my choices [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius].
You're also entitled to your opinion, and just because you don't agree with mine doesn't make my observations and experiences running the army how I like any less successful or valid.
I've had very good success with running a Novitiate, and it fills the third (mandatory) elite slot I have in the Vanguard detachment nicely without having to run even more Death Company. I know he's 55 points. I can read, and do math, as you may be aware. Also, yes, I know the pod is 105 points. It also puts them right where I want them along with the Jump Pack squad and provides a nice multi-wound vehicle that can sit on an objective on the turn it lands that my opponent then has to deal with or try to kill while having to contend with 20 Death Company + support characters.
Lastly, kindly step down off your high horse. You're not the god of 40k, and your opinion isn't worth -all more than mine or anyone elses.
If you want to compare notes, or offer some insight into how I'm doing things, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spado wrote: If you really want to play DC without jump packs, embark them onto a rhino and that's it. What's the reason to play a drop pod? You have to place it 9" from the enemy and if you disembark you still have to place all your models 9" away. Blood angels already suck and if you waste your points on useless units you won't end up in a good spot.
And then I don't really understand why in general one wants to shoot the unit one aims to charge: if one kills a couple of guys of that unit one might not be able to charge since the enemy can remove casualties as he wishes.
Valid points, but as I said in my previous reply, I play with a lot of objectives, and a Pod is actually pretty excellent at claiming/holding an objective that my opponent may be shooting/gunning for or defending one of my own. Being able to land near or next to an objective in the middle of the board and force my opponent to come to me is excellent. You don't have to ALWAYS get the charge off with Death Company as they're really good at area denial if you position them correctly.
You don't typically shoot the units you want to charge, at least I don't (I can't speak for you or anyone else). That said, being able to land near a soft target and drop 20 bolter shots into it does typically result in something dying and taking the heat off of the charging DC unit that lands with them.
It's all a matter of trying to see where you can use the unit and what options available to that unit can change their role up a bit and make them useful beyond one dimension of use.
@ Red_Thirst: I, by no means, want to be rude or behave like I know a lot about this game. I simply don't understand the usefulness of a drop pod at all and I apologize if you interpreted my suggestion in the wrong way. In my opinion, that set-up cannot punch a giant hole into the enemy lines and I expect them to quickly die the turn after since the opponent will disengage and shoot at them. But then again, I don't know whom you play against and the meta of your LGS. However, if you'll have the occasion to play such list I'll be interested if you'll have time to post your impressions.
Spado wrote: @ Red_Thirst: I, by no means, want to be rude or behave like I know a lot about this game. I simply don't understand the usefulness of a drop pod at all and I apologize if you interpreted my suggestion in the wrong way. In my opinion, that set-up cannot punch a giant hole into the enemy lines and I expect them to quickly die the turn after since the opponent will disengage and shoot at them. But then again, I don't know whom you play against and the meta of your LGS. However, if you'll have the occasion to play such list I'll be interested if you'll have time to post your impressions.
Spado
No harm, no foul at all sir!
Rest assured, your reply was a well thought out question and I was happy to reply to it. If I came off as rude to you, please know that wasn't my intention in the slightest. The poster before you, however, well let's just say I didn't care if I sounded rude.
You are correct, the enemy can disengage from them if they wish, and if they do, I'll just pursue, rapid fire and hopefully charge them with the foot-slogging DC squad.
This drop pod squad isn't so much designed to punch a hole as much as it's a support to the other jump pack Death Company squad that can land with, or nearby, them. The bolters can chew at something else, taking pressure off of the Jump Pack DC hopefully. The overarching goal is to put a lot of bodies near an enemy flank or critical objective and be able to be aggressive with part of it and then follow them with even more aggressive play, or hang back and still have a respectable amount of bodies ready to jump in as a second wave to reinforce the first.
Once I get the squads all built and can do a playtest, I'll happily post up my opinions and findings on it, also. If you ever care to compare notes, please don't hesitate to ask. I'm all about finding out about new & interesting ways to field my Blood Angels.
I really think it's a better idea to build a Dante-based quasi-Girlyman list and try to take out IG toys at range. I think podding in DC, jumping DC, jumping vets, or any attempt at CC at this juncture is futile. We simply can't withstand multiple turns of multiple wyverns/manticores/Russes. We have to hope we have LoS on the artillery and use lascannons. That's it. Only lascannons because they are the sweet spot for anti-MC/tank. S9 48" is simply unbeatable right now for range weapons. I currently am going to try a 2K list with 16 lascannons, and yes, 6 tactical squads. Maybe if I buy myself 6 turns to beat up conscripts I can do it with tac marines. Maybe. It's humiliating and stupid, but I don't think we can punch our way out of a paper bag this edition.
I saw a CSM list use 30 infiltrating berzerkers to kill 123 models in one turn. The next turn, he had 4 berzerkers left after beta strike and was behind in points badly. And we can't even get close that kind of efficiency. And the guy still ended up getting tabled. It doesn't matter how many screening units we chop. That's what list with screening units want. We have to take out their models that do damage. Period. They're not going to let us deep strike, and they're not going to let us assault them. There's only one choice left. That's just the way it is.
I played a BT guy with 15 assault terminators and smoked him with predators badly. Assault terminators are bad. Really bad. They lose in the movement phase of the game. I'm never going to let you assault my good units.
And I've had them tear apart predators and land raiders with ease. Frankly, given your perpetual and tiresome doomsaying, I'm going to trust my experience more than your anecdote.
Pfft, let me? Hahah, oh wow. I don't need to take you saying bullgak like how you're not gonna "let" me do anything. You have no authority to tell me what I can and cannot do on this forum, nor do you have any authority as a supposed expert on gameplay balance. Red Thirst was right.
I think you intentionally misunderstand posts so you can post angry replies.
I won't let your assault terminators assault my tanks. If we played, I guarantee you'd assault zero tanks and lose because assault terminators are terrible. I don't need to be an authority to know that.
Yeah I think you mistook his post a bit. I see where he is coming from though. My Combi-Plasma/Plasma Tac Squads shred Terminators, they really don't have much of a chance unless they kill all of my 5 man squads at the same time and make their 9" charges, half of them even longer than that since not all of my squads are just lined up.
But, I will happily sacrifice a couple 5 man Tac squads placed 4-5" away from my vehicles, Devastators and Dreadnoughts to keep them from hitting anything important. Terminators have even less of a chance to hit anything important when I am running my Guard as allies or by themselves.
I learned my lesson early on about leaving gaps for deep striking units to long bomb their 9" charges into something I don't want them too. It isn't too hard to prevent after a bit of practice now. The Terminator heavy lists at my store are in a rough spot this edition (still).
True, overcharged plasma is a thing to worry about. Problem is, most people just don't seem to like taking a lot of tactical squads, and thus they don't have enough plasma firepower to deal with a primarily terminator list. If they did take more dual plastac squads I'd probably be doing a lot worse, but they'd rather be taking tanks instead while taking bare minimum numbers of tacticals.
Melissia wrote: Pfft, let me? Hahah, oh wow. I don't need to take you saying bullgak like how you're not gonna "let" me do anything. You have no authority to tell me what I can and cannot do on this forum, nor do you have any authority as a supposed expert on gameplay balance. Red Thirst was right.
I agree, terminators are overpriced for what they bring. Between plasma, cyclic ion blasters, earthshaker cannons, blastmasters, malefic lords and so on, terminators are in big trouble once exposed. Good opponents have enough wit and tools to allow them to block off any feasible deepstrike options. Even if the termies get into a desirable melee their damage output is nothing special. I have tried to use terminators in competitive settings and tournaments, with and without transports. They have not been competitive for me or any other SM player that I have seen at tournaments.
-all more than mine or anyone elses.