senor_flojo wrote: It really opened my eyes to competitive play. As much as people talk about it on here, it really takes getting a good kick in the ass to learn.
But now I completely understand all the complaints about the chapter. It’s one thing if you’re playing fluff games for fun at the house. But outside of that, there’s a glaring flaw, and it’s not just the geneseed.
Now I’m coming up with lists that lack any BA-specific units, and I’m wondering, what’s the point? I have a Stormtalon I can never use. I want to run a lieutenant, but we’re stuck with the primaris variety. The op razorbacks makes me thankful that I magnetized the side sponsons on my Baal pred.
I totally see why everyone was saying devistators. And scouts seem much more useful than tacticals when filling in battalions.
This is what I’ve come up with, but aside from Mephiston, nothing is stopping me from playing as another chapter:
Spoiler:
++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [39 PL, 847pts] ++
+ Flyer + Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 326pts]: Twin lascannon, Twin multi-melta, Two Hurricane Bolters, Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers
Stormraven Gunship [15 PL, 326pts]: Twin lascannon, Twin multi-melta, Two Hurricane Bolters, Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers
Stormtalon Gunship [9 PL, 195pts]: Twin assault cannon, Two Lascannons
Devastator Squad [7 PL, 115pts] . Space Marine: Lascannon
. Space Marine: Lascannon
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
Devastator Squad [7 PL, 115pts] . Space Marine: Lascannon
. Space Marine: Lascannon
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
Devastator Squad [7 PL, 82pts] . Space Marine: Heavy flamer
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
I really like this list of Russian player from this year ETC, looks innocent but has options nearly against all armies and has strong board controll. You can easily outmanever your oponent in all respects. Its not easy list to play, it punish your mistakes more than flyer spam.
Spoiler:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ TEAM: Russia
+ PLAYER 8: Stepan Zotov
+ PLAYER TOURNEYKEEPER PROFILE: Stepan Zotov, 1556
+ ARMY FACTION: Imperium
+ TOTAL COMMAND POINTS: 8
+ TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000 pts
+ ARMY FACTIONS USED: Blood Angels, Inquisition, Officio Assasinorum
+ TOTAL REINFORCEMENT POINTS: Not Applicable
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
== Supreme Command Detachment == Blood Angels [490pts] +1 CP HQ1: Commander Dante [215pts] – WARLORD (Tenacious Survivor)
HQ2: Mephiston, Lord of Death, Blood Boil, Shield of Sanguinius, Unleash Rage [145pts]
HQ3: Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack (86), Combi-Melta (19), Thunder Hammer (25) [130pts]
== Vanguard Detachment == Inquisition, Officio Assasinorum, Blood Angels [322pts] +1CP
HQ4: Inquisitor (55), Storm Bolter (2), Psyker, Terrify [57pts]
Elites1: Culexus Assasin <Officio Assasinorum> [85pts]
Elites2: Eversor Assasin <Officio Assasinorum> [70pts]
Elites3: 5 man Company Veteran Squad with Jump Packs (95), 4 Chainswords, Storm Shield (5), 5 Storm Bolter (10) [110pts]
==Batallion Detachment== Blood Angels [1188pts] +3CP
HQ5: Captain with Jump Pack (93), Combi-Melta (19), Thunder Hammer (25) [137pts]
HQ6: Primaris Lieutenant (70), Master Crafted Auto Bolt Rifle (4) [74pts]
Troops1: 6 man Scout Squad (66), 2 Sniper Rifles (8), Sergeant: Sniper Rifle (4) [78pts]
Troops2: 5 man Scout Squad (55), 1 Sniper Rifle (4), Sergeant: Sniper Rifle (4) [63pts]
Troops3: 5 man Scout Squad (55), Sergeant: Sniper Rifle (4) [59pts]
Elites4: 5 man Company Veteran Squad with Jump Packs (95), 4 Chainswords, Storm Shield (5), 5 Storm Bolter (10) [110pts]
FA1: 5 man Assault Squad with Jump Packs (80), 2 Meltaguns (34), Sergeant: 2 Chainswords, Melta Bomb (5) [119pts]
FA2: 5 man Assault Squad with Jump Packs (80), 2 Meltaguns (34), Sergeant: 2 Chainswords, Melta Bomb (5) [119pts]
HS1: 5 man Devastator Squad (65), 2 Lascannons (50), Armorium Cherub (5), Sergeant: Bolter (0) [120pts] in DT1
DT1: Razorback (65), Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter (17) [82pts]
HS2: 5 man Devastator Squad (65), 3 Lascannons (75), Armorium Cherub (5), Sergeant: Bolter (0) [145pts] in DT2
DT2: Razorback (65), Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter (17) [82pts]
ARMY REINFORCEMENT POINTS : 0
ARMY REINFORCEMENT FACTION : NONE
sossen wrote: I agree, terminators are overpriced for what they bring. Between plasma, cyclic ion blasters, earthshaker cannons, blastmasters, malefic lords and so on, terminators are in big trouble once exposed. Good opponents have enough wit and tools to allow them to block off any feasible deepstrike options. Even if the termies get into a desirable melee their damage output is nothing special. I have tried to use terminators in competitive settings and tournaments, with and without transports. They have not been competitive for me or any other SM player that I have seen at tournaments.
Yeah, the plethora of 2 Damage weapons with at least -1 AP is staggering. Normal Marines are expensive per model and fragile enough as it is, and the 5+ Invul is nothing to write home about. Sure the 3+ Invul with Storm Shields is pretty good, but then they lack any ranged capabilities so MUST get their charge off to even be remotely effective. I can't justify using, unless it is in a casual Narrative Play game.
It's hard enough running a Successor Chapter and losing access to the BA special characters, I don't need to gimp my list even further with overly expensive and fragile models that are so easily blown away with Smite spam and Plasma.
I really like this list of Russian player from this year ETC, looks innocent but has options nearly against all armies and has strong board controll. You can easily outmanever your oponent in all respects. Its not easy list to play, it punish your mistakes more than flyer spam.
Spoiler:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ TEAM: Russia
+ PLAYER 8: Stepan Zotov
+ PLAYER TOURNEYKEEPER PROFILE: Stepan Zotov, 1556
+ ARMY FACTION: Imperium
+ TOTAL COMMAND POINTS: 8
+ TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000 pts
+ ARMY FACTIONS USED: Blood Angels, Inquisition, Officio Assasinorum
+ TOTAL REINFORCEMENT POINTS: Not Applicable
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
== Supreme Command Detachment == Blood Angels [490pts] +1 CP HQ1: Commander Dante [215pts] – WARLORD (Tenacious Survivor)
HQ2: Mephiston, Lord of Death, Blood Boil, Shield of Sanguinius, Unleash Rage [145pts]
HQ3: Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack (86), Combi-Melta (19), Thunder Hammer (25) [130pts]
== Vanguard Detachment == Inquisition, Officio Assasinorum, Blood Angels [322pts] +1CP
HQ4: Inquisitor (55), Storm Bolter (2), Psyker, Terrify [57pts]
Elites1: Culexus Assasin <Officio Assasinorum> [85pts]
Elites2: Eversor Assasin <Officio Assasinorum> [70pts]
Elites3: 5 man Company Veteran Squad with Jump Packs (95), 4 Chainswords, Storm Shield (5), 5 Storm Bolter (10) [110pts]
==Batallion Detachment== Blood Angels [1188pts] +3CP
HQ5: Captain with Jump Pack (93), Combi-Melta (19), Thunder Hammer (25) [137pts]
HQ6: Primaris Lieutenant (70), Master Crafted Auto Bolt Rifle (4) [74pts]
Troops1: 6 man Scout Squad (66), 2 Sniper Rifles (8), Sergeant: Sniper Rifle (4) [78pts]
Troops2: 5 man Scout Squad (55), 1 Sniper Rifle (4), Sergeant: Sniper Rifle (4) [63pts]
Troops3: 5 man Scout Squad (55), Sergeant: Sniper Rifle (4) [59pts]
Elites4: 5 man Company Veteran Squad with Jump Packs (95), 4 Chainswords, Storm Shield (5), 5 Storm Bolter (10) [110pts]
FA1: 5 man Assault Squad with Jump Packs (80), 2 Meltaguns (34), Sergeant: 2 Chainswords, Melta Bomb (5) [119pts]
FA2: 5 man Assault Squad with Jump Packs (80), 2 Meltaguns (34), Sergeant: 2 Chainswords, Melta Bomb (5) [119pts]
HS1: 5 man Devastator Squad (65), 2 Lascannons (50), Armorium Cherub (5), Sergeant: Bolter (0) [120pts] in DT1
DT1: Razorback (65), Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter (17) [82pts]
HS2: 5 man Devastator Squad (65), 3 Lascannons (75), Armorium Cherub (5), Sergeant: Bolter (0) [145pts] in DT2
DT2: Razorback (65), Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter (17) [82pts]
ARMY REINFORCEMENT POINTS : 0
ARMY REINFORCEMENT FACTION : NONE
I am 99% certain that ETC was played without codex space marines in effect. Meaning that there was more incentive to play Blood Angels back then.
I really like this list of Russian player from this year ETC, looks innocent but has options nearly against all armies and has strong board controll. You can easily outmanever your oponent in all respects. Its not easy list to play, it punish your mistakes more than flyer spam.
Spoiler:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ TEAM: Russia
+ PLAYER 8: Stepan Zotov
+ PLAYER TOURNEYKEEPER PROFILE: Stepan Zotov, 1556
+ ARMY FACTION: Imperium
+ TOTAL COMMAND POINTS: 8
+ TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000 pts
+ ARMY FACTIONS USED: Blood Angels, Inquisition, Officio Assasinorum
+ TOTAL REINFORCEMENT POINTS: Not Applicable
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
== Supreme Command Detachment == Blood Angels [490pts] +1 CP HQ1: Commander Dante [215pts] – WARLORD (Tenacious Survivor)
HQ2: Mephiston, Lord of Death, Blood Boil, Shield of Sanguinius, Unleash Rage [145pts]
HQ3: Sanguinary Priest with Jump Pack (86), Combi-Melta (19), Thunder Hammer (25) [130pts]
== Vanguard Detachment == Inquisition, Officio Assasinorum, Blood Angels [322pts] +1CP
HQ4: Inquisitor (55), Storm Bolter (2), Psyker, Terrify [57pts]
Elites1: Culexus Assasin <Officio Assasinorum> [85pts]
Elites2: Eversor Assasin <Officio Assasinorum> [70pts]
Elites3: 5 man Company Veteran Squad with Jump Packs (95), 4 Chainswords, Storm Shield (5), 5 Storm Bolter (10) [110pts]
==Batallion Detachment== Blood Angels [1188pts] +3CP
HQ5: Captain with Jump Pack (93), Combi-Melta (19), Thunder Hammer (25) [137pts]
HQ6: Primaris Lieutenant (70), Master Crafted Auto Bolt Rifle (4) [74pts]
Troops1: 6 man Scout Squad (66), 2 Sniper Rifles (8), Sergeant: Sniper Rifle (4) [78pts]
Troops2: 5 man Scout Squad (55), 1 Sniper Rifle (4), Sergeant: Sniper Rifle (4) [63pts]
Troops3: 5 man Scout Squad (55), Sergeant: Sniper Rifle (4) [59pts]
Elites4: 5 man Company Veteran Squad with Jump Packs (95), 4 Chainswords, Storm Shield (5), 5 Storm Bolter (10) [110pts]
FA1: 5 man Assault Squad with Jump Packs (80), 2 Meltaguns (34), Sergeant: 2 Chainswords, Melta Bomb (5) [119pts]
FA2: 5 man Assault Squad with Jump Packs (80), 2 Meltaguns (34), Sergeant: 2 Chainswords, Melta Bomb (5) [119pts]
HS1: 5 man Devastator Squad (65), 2 Lascannons (50), Armorium Cherub (5), Sergeant: Bolter (0) [120pts] in DT1
DT1: Razorback (65), Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter (17) [82pts]
HS2: 5 man Devastator Squad (65), 3 Lascannons (75), Armorium Cherub (5), Sergeant: Bolter (0) [145pts] in DT2
DT2: Razorback (65), Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter (17) [82pts]
ARMY REINFORCEMENT POINTS : 0
ARMY REINFORCEMENT FACTION : NONE
I am 99% certain that ETC was played without codex space marines in effect. Meaning that there was more incentive to play Blood Angels back then.
Ah that makes sense, I just play them for fun and just expect to get pounded by a Codex army when those games arise. Tried two tournaments with them, it didn't go well... But I won Best Sportsmanship both times! Woohoo (I guess).
It's almost like I know what I'm talking about. There's no reason to discuss scrubs who let terminators walk up and punch their fire base. That's just not happening against worthy opponents.
I play against a guy with 100 fire warriors. Imagine how well your assault terminators are going to work there.
However, I'm offering a partial fix here. It's boring and dumb, but it's the reality of marines in 8th. Shooting is the only solution that your opponent can't 100% foil in their movement phase. Sometimes they can with LoS blocking terrain, but with 48" lascannons there will almost always be a target. If your opponent can hide all their wyverns and manticores, you have already lost more than likely.
I feel stormravens are a very BA thign to take honestly. Putting death company and a death company dread inside a stormraven is something I've seriously considered doing; only thing that stopped me was lack of a dread, but it'd be the only reason I'd buy a dread.
Hopefully the codex will make DC more worthwhile to bring, but for now I’m leaving them out. Maybe at some point, remodel 10 to have no jump packs and throw them in a Stormraven with Lemmy and a DC dread.
I don’t plan to use either Stormraven as transportation for time being, just fast dakka.
I've found death company have performed fairly well, as long as they're not over-equipped. They can be equipped as ASM with boltguns and more attacks, and they're fairly good at being that.
senor_flojo wrote: Hopefully the codex will make DC more worthwhile to bring, but for now I’m leaving them out. Maybe at some point, remodel 10 to have no jump packs and throw them in a Stormraven with Lemmy and a DC dread.
I don’t plan to use either Stormraven as transportation for time being, just fast dakka.
Are typhoons better than multimeltas?
Yes, because of range. The whole shooting game right now is ranged anti-tank.
20 ppm is a bitter pill for a model with the capabilities of DC, imo.
Gotcha, I’ve always run meltas due to the -4 ap, but I guess -2 for 4x the range isn’t that bad of a compromise, and you still have the option to shoot 2d6 into weaker hordes.
It's a big race to shoot wyverns, basilisks, manticores, predators, russes, etc off the table from long range, because you can't DS against them, can't assault them, can't melta them in 8th.
Martel732 wrote: It's a big race to shoot wyverns, basilisks, manticores, predators, russes, etc off the table from long range, because you can't DS against them, can't assault them, can't melta them in 8th.
Agreed. Unless they are just playing poorly, it's a shooting game... Which we will most likely lose. Thankfully most of my group is very casual now that we got tournament play out of our system and just play to roll dice and push dudes around. A few of us build more optimized lists, but nothing that could be considered tournament worthy.
Hey guys, my GF is going to play with blood angels for the first time tomorrow (500 points). Unfortunately it will be a 2v2 and I don't think people will take into account she is quite new and never built an army before. What are strong 500 points lists that do not include a stormraven?
Interesting list. I would possibly drop one of the twin autocannons from the dreadnought, or just go for a vanilla dread (CC & Assault cannon). It can be helpful to deter DSing terminators or the like from jacking up your tanks.
I love autocannons. A dread CC weapon is very powerful in CC, but if you dont get into CC with it the points are wasted. You can always shooting at something 48" away, making the points count. Im not scared of anything deepstriking. Making the 9" charge is not very likely, its only 28%.
p5freak wrote: I love autocannons. A dread CC weapon is very powerful in CC, but if you dont get into CC with it the points are wasted. You can always shooting at something 48" away, making the points count. Im not scared of anything deepstriking. Making the 9" charge is not very likely, its only 28%.
This is true, but I usually face things that allow re-rolls of the charge or something comparable. It is also good to have just in case you have something that rushes you to get in your face. The CC may be wasted for a turn or two, but it is definitely a solid deterent. The trade off is some shooting. I tend to have better luck with the assault cannons over the autocannons personally anyway.
senor_flojo wrote: I don’t plan to use either Stormraven as transportation for time being, just fast dakka.
Are typhoons better than multimeltas?
Yes, because of range. The whole shooting game right now is ranged anti-tank.
I tend to disagree here. Storm Ravens pay a lot for being a fast platform that ignore the -1 to Hit for moving and firing heavy weapons. I would say they are a great place for MMs since they are the easiest way to get them into range quickly.
If you want long ranged anti-tank you can get a Dev squad with 4 Lascannons and park them in cover in your back field and blaze away all day. Long ranged weapons by their nature don't need to be on fast platforms to be effective (although it does depend to some extent on how much LOS-blocking terrain you have).
I think the AC/MM loadout with Hurricans is best for the Storm Raven. At the end of the day, magnets rule.
There are 22" of enemy models between me and the artillery. Because they've got 90-180 conscripts on the table. And no gaps for the raven. They'll see the MM raven and make sure that they are spread out as much as possible, too. Typhoon/lascannon raven can't be denied. For the marines, it's 48" guns or go home in a body bag.
Look tbh martel, if your entire competitive scene comprises solely of these 100+ conscript armies, yeah hold off until the codex. Life's pretty poor for you at the moment, and I say that without sarcasm, I can appreciate that your gaming experience is very bland and depressing as a BA. I guess just do your best, but that's not really going to be a whole lot until codex/chapter approved. Without being too rude, if you're only basing your experience off one army, of course people are going to be a bit rude and dismissive. They have just cause. It's not your fault that you're facing such painfully spammy opponents 24/7, but for offering criticism to others who are not against such forces I think there are a few more options available.
Personally, against anything that doesn't deny you 22" of board space, I think the melta is very strong. The movement and durability of the vehicle almost totally negates the downsides of the melta, at least for the purposes of turn 1/2 tank hunting fun. I take the HB for points and to counter MEQ, which is still very prevalent for local competitions, but I completely see the upsides of the melta.
senor_flojo wrote: I’m so glad I’m not regularly playing against IG.....
I played my Guard army a few times, enough to realize that it wasn't really fun for either me, or my opponent. I normally just play my BA Successor until I get tired of losing games, and will whip out the Tallarn for a game or two to cheer me up again.
The amount of Mortal Wound spam this game has developed makes playing anything Space Marine (without Bobby G) incredibly tough. Our resilience of having a 3+ armor save is almost worthless this edition too, with how easily accessible AP-2 or higher weapons are and things that can throw buckets of dice (Leman Russ Punisher) forcing more saves. When we are paying in points over three times the cost of a Guardsman, those kinds of losses hurt us far more.
Martel732 wrote: Not having to race your SR across the board has its advantages as well. You can outrange a lot of Xeno weapons with 6 shots.
And that's my Devastators are always MVP of my army. Even though they aren't super competitive since they all have Missile Launchers, and are squishy, they do more work than anything else. I am looking forward to using my Twin Assault Cannon Razorback though, my army is lacking some mid range anti infantry.
You can only load one dread on a gunship. DC with power weapons, HQ to buff them (lemartes, astorath, corbulo), DC dread or librarian dread. These embark on the gunship. Some (empty) razorbacks with lascans, assault cans, captain and primaris lieutant to reroll 1s to hit and wound. Company veterans with stormbolters/plasmaguns and chainswords/powerweapons for deepstriking. A captain with them can reroll 1s when they overcharge plasma.
Honestly I think with THAT setup, you'd be spending a bit much on all those named characters.
Chaplain, Sang Priest w/Axe, Company Ancient w/Axe, 7xDC w/Axes and Boltguns, DC Dread w/flamers, Stormraven kitted out for anti-tank plus hurricanes. 910 points.
Compare that to Astorath, Lemartes, Corbulo, 5xDC w/Axes and Boltguns, DC Dread w/flamers, Stormraven kitted out for anti-tank plus hurricanes-- 1019 points.
I'm not convinced that Astorath and Lemartes' bonuses are worth the two additional bodies (jump pack units take up two slots), though Corbulo would make a good exchange for the sang priest (additional attacks on 6s to-hit might be worth it with how many attacks are rolled on the charge, even at 21 points and corbulo being weaker than a sang priest w/axe offensively). Ancient + Chaplain gives Ld10, Ancient might also give a few extra attacks as you take losses (but probably not, in my experience)-- mostly I was trying to fill out the third elite slot due to mild OCD.
Martel732 wrote: Not having to race your SR across the board has its advantages as well. You can outrange a lot of Xeno weapons with 6 shots.
Other backfield units can do that for cheaper. Not using the transport capacity, -1 to hit or hurricane bolters is a pretty significant loss of value.
Not if it lives another 3 turns.
Yeah I see your point. Personally, I think if you're not using the SR to full effect, you're just shooting yourself in the foot. May as well take 5 devs with LC in a las-back. They can claim objectives, and provide significantly more dakka output. Whilst the SR offers late game flexibility, ie swooping a unit onto an objective, I think the most value comes from playing it offensive. If you're taking a SR, you may as well actually use it. I doubt you'll fully make points back out of your army. Sure the bird might improve on its value by like, 50%, but the enemy will just tear your other stuff apart, so you'll lose point value overall.
Swooping it in, if you've gone anti-infantry, you can get close to equal value, moreso with melta. However, you also enable your CC units and dreads to get more value. If it draws fire, and dies before making back points, you've likely got enough backfield stuff to relieve that deficit.
I think it's very much a case of what you're vs'ing, and personal experience.
I still think that six 48" shors at full bs on the move is very useful. You always have the option of ramming it down people's throat. Melta is not that great anymore anyway.
p5freak wrote: I didnt mean all 3 HQ, i meant 1 or 2. Buffing characters arent very useful when there arent a lot of models to buff.
That's definitely fair.
I'd stick with just corbulo and a chaplain for this kind of deployment, myself, or if it was intended as nearly the sole thing you're deploying in a 1k game, adding in an ancient for the additional slot. Veterans with plasmas might also work? But I'm really not fond of them.
Martel732 wrote: Not having to race your SR across the board has its advantages as well. You can outrange a lot of Xeno weapons with 6 shots.
Other backfield units can do that for cheaper. Not using the transport capacity, -1 to hit or hurricane bolters is a pretty significant loss of value.
Not if it lives another 3 turns.
Yeah I see your point. Personally, I think if you're not using the SR to full effect, you're just shooting yourself in the foot. May as well take 5 devs with LC in a las-back. They can claim objectives, and provide significantly more dakka output. Whilst the SR offers late game flexibility, ie swooping a unit onto an objective, I think the most value comes from playing it offensive. If you're taking a SR, you may as well actually use it. I doubt you'll fully make points back out of your army. Sure the bird might improve on its value by like, 50%, but the enemy will just tear your other stuff apart, so you'll lose point value overall.
Swooping it in, if you've gone anti-infantry, you can get close to equal value, moreso with melta. However, you also enable your CC units and dreads to get more value. If it draws fire, and dies before making back points, you've likely got enough backfield stuff to relieve that deficit.
I think it's very much a case of what you're vs'ing, and personal experience.
I feel the middle ground may be the way to go here.
Use your stormraven from a distance for a turn or two before rushing it forward to deploy it's cargo. You may not have the option to wait if your enemy has the firepower to shoot it out of the sky while your keeping the SR at a distance, but that'll be apparent at that time and you can act accordingly.
Martel732 wrote: Maybe, but the unit on board is contributing nothing while waiting to be deployed. I'd rather have it outside shooting away.
Yeah...I find as I continue painting and waiting for the codex to drop, my lists have less and less points dedicated to melee centric BA units and opt for more long range firepower. I DO still want to have a Librarian Dread, Mephiston, and some other unit in the Stormraven, but that's basically just me being stubborn at this point.
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, it's easy for your opponent to turn those units off with screens.
My latest 2K list has 16 lascannons and zero assault elements. Welcome to 8th.
I feel / hope that our codex specific stratagems will define a few playstyles that will make sense to BA and at least be "somewhat" competitive for those of us that have stuck it out and keep painting red power armor. I'd assume special bonuses on the turn jump pack / terminator units arrive would make sense, but looking back at Angel's Blade and Shield of Baal, they threw all kinds of different formations against the wall. None of them really stuck or gave us a winning identity, so it's hard to prepare for what's ahead.
All this uncertainty has given me some free time, however. I finally painted that stupid Plasma Obliterator so my Dev squad had a proper place to squat and I'm about to start on the Vindicator I purchased who knows how many years ago. I doubt either would make the cut if I had to win the game I was playing, but I refuse to put together and paint up any more Death Company (or Sanguinary Guard) until I have a codex in my hand...
So happy. What a great day. I told my buddy Codex Too Hot and Codex So Not are the last two books of the year. I’m hoping we are the former. Cover looks good at least. Better than the traitor in green on the other book.
You know, we can't honestly be worse off than we are now, I cannot wait to crack this book open and take a look. I began prepping for our Codex a while back, and built a double Battalion Detachment army at 2,000 points, leaving room for add ons like extra Storm Bolters on my Rhinos, and a Jump Pack on my Sanguinary Priest.
I'm hoping for some good info and fun strategems to be teased soon. Relics, too.
More flavor and more fun tricks to allow for added melee shenanigans and unique builds, from Archangels/first company + Sanguinary Guard to Descent of Angels style to mech heavy with rhinos and razorbacks, to death company heavy. I want each to be fun and viable.
Here's hoping it'll be a fun codex.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Automatically Appended Next Post: Additional info from the News and Rumors section:
Apparently the Blood Angels Chapter Tactic is +1" added to any Charge rolls and Advance rolls for any infantry and Dreadnoughts.
Take it with a grain of salt. I for one wouldn't mind this, and actually prefer it over the much more conditional +1 strength/furious charge of previous editions. Assuming it's correct or true, of course.
NH Gunsmith wrote: You know, we can't honestly be worse off than we are now
Touch wood
Well, if the Codex makes us worse, we will likely lose as many games as we do now, maybe a few more, so it won't change much for me anyways.
Yeah this is true... but one can hope! If we're not top tier that isn't a big deal, just really hoping we can at least pull off something fun and cheesy at some point. Who knows, maybe we'll even become a viable codex :p serious touch wood.
Got tabled by astra militarum yesterday night. Game could have been over already after turn 2 but I managed to steal the initiative with a command re-roll. I was already bleeding after his turn 1 shooting phase but we decided to keep on playin: morale of the story: at the end of turn 6 I just had a single lascannon marine alive. We were playing the relic mission.
Here is what I used:
Battalion detachment:
captain jump pack, power sword and stormshield
captain jump pacl, power sword and stormshield
5x death company (why did I even use them? Oh yes because they are painted beautifully and I just love them even if they suck and they indeed sucked), jump pack: boltgun chainsword and 1x TH
As espected he bubble wrapped all his precious tanks which fires tons of shot without line of sight and with 200" range (LOL?) with tons of conscript. He also had some nasty scions (they even fire 1 more shot if they roll a 6 to hit LOL?).
I basically had to deep-strike my plasma squad close to the only leman russ which wasn't bubble wrapped.
Altought i rolled pretty good with my company veterans and, thanks to their ss, they absorbed tons of damage (have to say I got really lucky with dice tehre) I rolled so badly with my stormraven who basically did nothing and quickly died on turn 1. I m stobborn but I think I have to play 2 of them. That -1 to hit isn't enough to protect it from all the dakka around. During his turn 1 he dropped his scions, dealt tons of damage and start hammering with these, I dont know how they are called tanks that do not require line of sight. DC, who was embarked onto the raven, died miserabily against 20 conscript, while they were desperately tryin to reach the tanks.
I also have 0 expectations for the new codex, right now I feel so pissed that I always get tabled every game I play with BA. I know I'm not playing poorly because we have 2 very experienced players in our group (the one I played yesterday) and they both agree that, no matter the BA list you bring, they suck even if you carefully select the priority targets.
Apparently the Blood Angels Chapter Tactic is +1" added to any Charge rolls and Advance rolls for any infantry and Dreadnoughts.
That would be slightly underwhelming. I am hoping that this is only half of the trait. It is not bad and is fairly fluffy but on its own it is not going to make much of a difference.
Why bother with meat shields ? Shoot the tanks directly. Did you have a captain near your lascan razorbacks/dev squads/tac squads ? If no, your first tactical fault. Did you have a primaris lieutenant near your lascan razorbacks/dev squads/tac squads ? No, another tactical fault. I usually manage to kill a leman russ in one turn with 4 lascan shots, rerolling 1s to hit and 1s to wound. Hopefully we will get normal lieutenants who can embark on razorbacks, reducing the number of deployment units. You didnt give your captains any shooting capabilities. They have BS2+. If i decide to deepstrike i always have some (rapid fire) guns, if i fail the charge (chance of fail is 72%) i at least had some shooting.
Right now BA sucks at CC, hopefully the soon to be released codex will change that.
p5freak wrote: I usually manage to kill a leman russ in one turn with 4 lascan shots, rerolling 1s to hit and 1s to wound.
That's quite optimistic. 4 Lascannons will statistically deal 5 wounds to a Russ on their own. If you add in rerolls of 1 both to hit and to wound that goes up to about 6.5 on average.
Russes have 12 wounds so even with rerolls of 1s both to hit and wound, you will on average need 8 lascannon shots to kill a Russ.
Apparently the Blood Angels Chapter Tactic is +1" added to any Charge rolls and Advance rolls for any infantry and Dreadnoughts.
That would be slightly underwhelming. I am hoping that this is only half of the trait. It is not bad and is fairly fluffy but on its own it is not going to make much of a difference.
Agreed...I’d have to do some math but that just seems straight up worse than Black Templars re-roll charges.
Well, played against a 2,000 Sisters army today that had Celestine, couple squads of Seraphim, Melta squads up the wazoo in that Forge World tank that allows them to fire out of it, a few Battle Sister Squads in Rhinos, and a squad with Heavy Bolters.
Tactical Squad [5 PL, 107pts] . 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Special weapon): Meltagun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Inferno pistol, Power axe
Tactical Squad [5 PL, 107pts] . 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Special weapon): Meltagun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Inferno pistol, Power axe
Tactical Squad [5 PL, 107pts] . 3x Space Marine
. Space Marine (Special weapon): Meltagun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Inferno pistol, Power axe
+ Fast Attack +
Assault Squad [11 PL, 190pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Sergeant: Lightning Claw, Plasma pistol
. 7x Space Marine w/ bolt pistol and chainsword
. Space Marine w/ special pistol and chainsword: Plasma pistol
. Space Marine w/ special pistol and chainsword: Plasma pistol
+ Heavy Support +
Devastator Squad [11 PL, 209pts]: Armorium Cherub
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Missile launcher
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine: Boltgun
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun
It was an absolute beatdown, and he conceded after the top of Turn 2. We played Big Guns Never Tire, and even though I had a lackluster first turn of shooting and managed to only put two of his organ gun tanks in their mid damage tier, I dropped my Assault Marines and Chaplain 9" away from the third one and tied it up in melee with a successful charge, to avoid eating as many AP-4 attacks as I could. Kept my Librarian in my deployment zone to grant a 4+ Invul on one squad of Devastators.
He focused way too much on trying to kill the Assault Marines and Chaplain he barely did any damage to the rest of my army, and diverted Celestine away from doing anything valuable. The MVP's of the army were:
-Devastators
-Tactical Squads with Inferno Pistol/Melta
-Twin Assault Cannon Razorback
Those 6 units mulched whatever was in front of them, and the Plasma Squads mopped up.
I am very interested to see what out Codex brings, the +1 to charge distances would be very welcome since I do quite a bit of charging with my squads to tie up vehicles and big targets while grabbing objectives.
Martel732 wrote: +1 to advance and +1 to assault WITH being allowed to assault after advancing would be worthwhile.
Yes, that would be worthwhile although I am not sure I can see it being army-wide. Eldar Banshees get that rule but it is one fairly fragile unit in a fast army.
Reduction in price of things to match the core SM book.
Inclusion of some units that are in the SM book but not in BA Chapter tactic of some sort
Buff to a few units that GW considers "key" to BA
Which tbh is enough to make me look forward to it.
p5freak wrote: Chapter tactics are for bikers, dreadnought and infantry only.
Yep, because marines don’t know how to drive or pilot vehicles as well as every other race, including standard humans, for...reasons lol.
I do find it hilarious how it seems like GW thinks that Chapter Tactics on vehicles and flyers would somehow be gamebreaking for the Marines... But not everybody else. Silly super soldiers apparently forget everything about how the Chapter operates when they buckle themselves into a vehicle.
p5freak wrote: I guess its because flyers and vehicles already are somewhat strong.
True, but if every non-Marine army is going to have their faction traits apply to their vehicles, what is the difference? Flyers and hover tanks with -1 to hit when shooting at them, or with a 6+ Feel No Pain, and rerolling 1's to hit Leman Russes that can accept orders doesn't make the situation any better. It just makes everybody else's vehicles and flyers that much stronger.
The early Codexes this edition feel like they were far too cautious with them compared to later releases. And since the early books were Marines and Chaos Marines, they kind of screwed later Marine Codexes because if they make the Blood Angels and Dark Angels Chapter Tactic apply to everything, than Codex Marine and Chaos Marine players will be upset.
p5freak wrote: I guess its because flyers and vehicles already are somewhat strong.
True, but if every non-Marine army is going to have their faction traits apply to their vehicles, what is the difference? Flyers and hover tanks with -1 to hit when shooting at them, or with a 6+ Feel No Pain, and rerolling 1's to hit Leman Russes that can accept orders doesn't make the situation any better. It just makes everybody else's vehicles and flyers that much stronger.
The early Codexes this edition feel like they were far too cautious with them compared to later releases. And since the early books were Marines and Chaos Marines, they kind of screwed later Marine Codexes because if they make the Blood Angels and Dark Angels Chapter Tactic apply to everything, than Codex Marine and Chaos Marine players will be upset.
I agree. It seems like since the Astra Militarum book was released the power level of codexes have dramatically increased. Traits work on everything.
p5freak wrote: I guess its because flyers and vehicles already are somewhat strong.
True, but if every non-Marine army is going to have their faction traits apply to their vehicles, what is the difference? Flyers and hover tanks with -1 to hit when shooting at them, or with a 6+ Feel No Pain, and rerolling 1's to hit Leman Russes that can accept orders doesn't make the situation any better. It just makes everybody else's vehicles and flyers that much stronger.
The early Codexes this edition feel like they were far too cautious with them compared to later releases. And since the early books were Marines and Chaos Marines, they kind of screwed later Marine Codexes because if they make the Blood Angels and Dark Angels Chapter Tactic apply to everything, than Codex Marine and Chaos Marine players will be upset.
I agree. It seems like since the Astra Militarum book was released the power level of codexes have dramatically increased. Traits work on everything.
Thankfully traits not affecting vehicles and flyers doesn't hurt my army too badly. Besides a few Rhinos and a Razorback, everything in my army is infantry, jump infantry or a Dreadnought. I do feel fore Marine players who run a more mechanized/airborne force though.
No, start collecting and standard tactical units were still on the shelf. Stuff like sanguinary guard, assault, vanguard vets, and sternguard were all being set aside to ship.
senor_flojo wrote: No, start collecting and standard tactical units were still on the shelf. Stuff like sanguinary guard, assault, vanguard vets, and sternguard were all being set aside to ship.
Yeah, I still feel weird benching my sanguinary guard and death company, but all I can do is wait and hope.
I originally was running with a lieutenant, but can't stand the single primaris sticking out like a sore thumb, unable to ride around in a razorback.
I shifted tactics to try and keep the two captains in the two assbacks along with the tactical squads working independent of each other. Sternguard on one corner, lasback on the other. Air support where they can fit. Bring in the third captain and vets late game for precision strikes. Scouts in elevated cover for (usually ineffective) character assassination.
I feel the plasma kinda synergizes with the bolters since they're all rapid 24", but I'll consider expanding for more las in the future.
Guys black templars can re-roll charge sitances as a doctrine. If we want to re-roll a charge with DC we need Lemartes. I really hope they ll somehow be able to buff these units oterhwise my blood angels will become blood ravens and they'll be played as normal spaces marines.
So I have been thinking, do tou guys think we will end up with a single Chapter Tactic for the Blood Angels? Or do you think we will end up with a Chapter Tactic for successor Chapters like the Flesh Tearers?
It will be a copy paste from our previous codex. The OP +1S is meaningless in an even heavier shooty edition, unless you have some dedicated melee god-like units which BA don't have at the moment.
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, I'm not sure how they are gonna make assault meq viable.
I'm not sure how they're going to make MEQ viable at all. XD
It's all about dem vehicles right now. Them and Bobby are like the only things holding the astartes up.
Martel732 wrote: Shooting meqs are okay because they can get 2+ armor for free.
Yeah. 8th has taught me that melee is generally a burden unless you build for it... And even than it is pretty lackluster. So, my now extinct (according to the new Nids fluff) Knights of Blood will be a mainly shooting army.
Yeah I'm not a fan of those lists that are "technically BA." It's clearly just a spam of good marine vehicles accompanied by other imperial elements, and Dante could easily be replaced by a jump captain/chapter master from the standard codex except that the player wants to be registered as BA.
I definitely don't see much legitimacy in current ITC rankings or tourney faction results due to this, never mind that some of the ITC rankings are from 7e.
Thankfully I don't really play in tournaments, a lot of the lists for the big tournaments just look terrible to me. I would rather lose with a list I enjoy running, versus win with a list that isn't fun.
One thing they could give us in the codex is an improved wings of sanguinius power which should work the same as the chaos space marin power: deep strike 9" move again then charge
How have you guys been running your Dreadnoughts? I have tried running mine with Multi-Melta/Dread CCW... but it has been very lackluster. It misses far too much for my liking when it inevitably has to move to get into range, rarely gets anything worthwhile in Melta range, and with the single Melta shot, I tend to burn Command Points that could be better used elsewhere trying to get it to wound its target. So, how have you guys been running your Dreads? I feel like Twin-Las/Dread CCW will be a better option for the better range, strength and additional shot. It will also allow me to keep my Dreads a little further back and use them as a second wave to hit big targets like Daemon Princes/Primarchs in melee since they are the only high strength, consistent damage melee units my army has.
Anything that has 36"+ range. My dreads usually are long range fire support. Usually no CC weapons unless i face CC heavy armies like tyranids or orks, who can get close pretty fast. Also remember you are not limited to normal dreads, you can mix and use a venerable dread from another SM chapter. Those will hit on 2+ and have 6+ FNP.
NH Gunsmith wrote: How have you guys been running your Dreadnoughts? I have tried running mine with Multi-Melta/Dread CCW... but it has been very lackluster. It misses far too much for my liking when it inevitably has to move to get into range, rarely gets anything worthwhile in Melta range, and with the single Melta shot, I tend to burn Command Points that could be better used elsewhere trying to get it to wound its target. So, how have you guys been running your Dreads? I feel like Twin-Las/Dread CCW will be a better option for the better range, strength and additional shot. It will also allow me to keep my Dreads a little further back and use them as a second wave to hit big targets like Daemon Princes/Primarchs in melee since they are the only high strength, consistent damage melee units my army has.
So, how do you guys run your Dreads?
I run a Librarian Dread, typically armed with a Heavy Flamer (Though, the Meltagun option is also a decent one). In addition, I've got a Death Company Dreadnought in the works that I intend to run with a pair of Fists (since re-rolling to-hit naturally with a fixed 3 damage per swing is better than D6 damage with no re-roll to hit unless there's a chaplain close-by). Though, I am planning on magnetizing the hands so I can run fists or talons depending on what the new codex has in store.
As for standard non-furioso/unique BA dreads, I do think that a pair of lascannons and a missile launcher is a good option, or a pair of lascannons and a fist with a heavy flamer if you plan on dealing with melee often. The other options are good, but that twin lascannon is tough to beat in my opinion.
First round was against a Tau army with three Stormsurges and.some Pathfinders. Lost the rolloff to go first. It was a fun battle, but I had no answer for the super heavies and ran out of time after bottom of the third.
Second round was a Blood Angels army with maybe 8 razorbacks with mixed assault cannon and lascannon, Dante, Celestine, some assassins, and some assorted infantry. Had the initiative seized from me. This battle was interesting because I caught on that my opponent was rerolling missed hits and missed wounds. I thought it might have been Celestine or something, but caught on late match because she wasn't around and Dante was. I could have said something then, but at this point it didn't really matter considering how much it affected the outcome of the rolls. But afterwards I asked about the rerolls for wounds and he said it was from Dante. I showed him the index.
After that, I kinda had the wind knocked out of my sails for the day, but still had one match to go. A beautiful Space Wolf army (won best painted) consisting of maybe 80% character models. It was equally fun and annoying. Don't really have much else to say about it. Nice guy, annoying army.
All in all, not a terrible day. Still need to work on tactics, need more games under my belt. Going second every round, even though itc claims to make it more advantageous objectively, didn't really work for me and I found units getting crippled before I could do anything with them a bit frustrating. But sometimes you eat the bar, and sometimes the bar eats you.
senor_flojo wrote: Eh, I find it a little underwhelming. I hope they have some better news next week....
Me too. I am starting to get a bit impatient knowing our Codex is just around the corner, but it feels like they are dragging its release out. I was hoping it would have been available for pre order this week, hopefully next week.
senor_flojo wrote: I think someone on bolter & chainsword was predicting preorder on the 2nd and release on the 9th
Ugh. That's awful. Did they say it it was going to be dual release? That doesn't leave a lot of time to get the Dark Angels book out before the end of the year.
NH Gunsmith wrote: You guys see the spoilers yet?! Our book looks like it's gonna be good.
I was thinking the opposite. Nothing I saw is going to do too much to help my army, jump pack heavy marines. None of the issues with playing melee marines was solved at all and there's not much that helps Red shooting marines either. You can clearly see that GW's take on the BA is melee marines, which i've said before, yet the major issues holding them back are still there. Hopefully there is a lot more to come....
EDIT: I want to ammend this post a little. Red Thirst is a fine rule, I think it's actually pretty good, IF you can get into CC and that's where we have the biggest issue. If you can't reliably get into CC, then +1 to wound rolls in CC doesn't do anything. Still need to see more of what's in the book.
NH Gunsmith wrote: You guys see the spoilers yet?! Our book looks like it's gonna be good.
I was thinking the opposite. Nothing I saw is going to do too much to help my army, jump pack heavy marines. None of the issues with playing melee marines was solved at all and there's not much that helps Red shooting marines either. You can clearly see that GW's take on the BA is melee marines, which i've said before, yet the major issues holding them back are still there. Hopefully there is a lot more to come....
EDIT: I want to ammend this post a little. Red Thirst is a fine rule, I think it's actually pretty good, IF you can get into CC and that's where we have the biggest issue. If you can't reliably get into CC, then +1 to wound rolls in CC doesn't do anything. Still need to see more of what's in the book.
I am pretty happy with what I have seen, I run a fairly balanced force with a healthy mix of Tactical , Assault and Devastator squads. The Red Thirst makes me want to consider a few more assault based elements to make better use of it. Even 10 Assault Marines with the +1 Attack Psyker power on them, and a Chaplain would do a pretty decent job of carving stuff up.
Makes them wound most vehicles with Chainswords on 4, most other Marines on 3, and Toughness 3 units on 2. Even without AP on Chainswords, forcing that many saves will accomplish something. If they are Vanguard Vets... Yeah, hordes be gone! 4 Attacks each with Unleash Rage on them, 5 if The Sanguinor is nearby, rerolling to hit and wounding on 2... See ya later chaff unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit. I was including a Chaplain in the above example.
Makes them wound most vehicles with Chainswords on 4, most other Marines on 3, and Toughness 3 units on 2. Even without AP on Chainswords, forcing that many saves will accomplish something. If they are Vanguard Vets... Yeah, hordes be gone! 4 Attacks each with Unleash Rage on them, 5 if The Sanguinor is nearby, rerolling to hit and wounding on 2... See ya later chaff unit.
Edit. I was including a Chaplain in the above example.
And how much does all that cost you to remove your opponents "chaff" unit? I count about 350 points, and that's just for a 5 man VV squad with NO upgrades, a chappy with JP, no upgrades and the sanguinor. You literally just showed exactly how inefficient BA is at doing something like removing a chaff unit to get at a unit that actually matters, and tbh, your not going to kill large blobs of chaff unless you go to 10 models, which means your pushing 500 points at that point. So between 400 and 500 points with wargear to remove chaff units.
Khorne Berzerkers can accomplish the exact same thing for half that. That's a probelm imo.
Makes them wound most vehicles with Chainswords on 4, most other Marines on 3, and Toughness 3 units on 2. Even without AP on Chainswords, forcing that many saves will accomplish something. If they are Vanguard Vets... Yeah, hordes be gone! 4 Attacks each with Unleash Rage on them, 5 if The Sanguinor is nearby, rerolling to hit and wounding on 2... See ya later chaff unit.
Edit. I was including a Chaplain in the above example.
And how much does all that cost you to remove your opponents "chaff" unit? I count about 350 points, and that's just for a 5 man VV squad with NO upgrades, a chappy with JP, no upgrades and the sanguinor. You literally just showed exactly how inefficient BA is at doing something like removing a chaff unit to get at a unit that actually matters, and tbh, your not going to kill large blobs of chaff unless you go to 10 models, which means your pushing 500 points at that point. So between 400 and 500 points with wargear to remove chaff units.
Khorne Berzerkers can accomplish the exact same thing for half that. That's a probelm imo.
True. But even if you take away The Sanguinor (I don't own him since I run a Successor), and replace him with more Vets/Assault Marines that is a ton of attacks into other units I would rather not reach my backfield (like Genestealers). I plan on running a full 10 man squad with a Chaplain and using them to counter quick moving units targeting my Devs by deploying them more towards the back, hidden in my deployment zone. The new Strategem to teleport them for 1 CP is fantastic for making them more useful in an array of different roles. My army has 9 CP at 2,000 so cheap Strategems like that are great.
I am liking the "Flying Librarian Dreadnought" psychic power--that's something that might make me finally assemble and paint that model.
I also like the "redeploy" Strategem for 1 CP--that should allow me to keep my Death Company alive if they get stuck in a bad situation or pinned down.
Sanguinary priest goes nicely with the red thirst, wounds T4 on 2+ and even T8 on 4+.
Wings of sanguinius sounds fun, would you use it with Mephiston or Librarian dread, dunno. That's Mephy's lacking jump pack that I've always wanted. Lib dread in SR advances heavily on T1, and has 18" move distance and add some charge there and you should get your dread where you want on T2, whether it's too late and aldready shot down is another story
I hope those rumours about +1 charge distance is true, that with Lemartes should go nicely hand to hand.
Last I hope that index options are still valid. I want to try a a suicide squad of T2+ suicide plasma threat. Jump pack and combi-plasma for a lieutenant and a captain accompanying some plasma, storm shield company veterans with jump pack. Atleast opponents need to deploy to deny deep strike of such an unit, rerolling 1's on hits and wounds with bunch of rapid firing plasma shots. Atleast this is BA exclusive.
Hope that Baal pred goes down in points, it was already too expensive and twin AC gone up and flamers being overpriced. About flamers, who would ever take a 17 points possibly 1 hit weapon for other than fluff reasons...?
Please mr. Sanguinius, let it be even close to mid-tier, please! I'll be a nice person atleast a day..
The pistol and fist weapon profiles of the Boltstorm Gauntlet both come under the one weapon name right? If so, does that mean our warlord trait to gain +1 dmg to a weapon of our choice would apply to both profiles?
Anyone notice battlescribe acting weird? I have a sternguard squad of 5 with two lascannons, and the index shows it should be okay, but BS gives me an error that there's too many heavies.
That would make our Gravis Captains really good. 3 shots of 2dmg and the fist at d3+1 sounds amazing
As someone who painted his start set Blood Angels scheme, sounds awesome indeed.
I do hope we get a 'speed' spell, would love to make good use of Aggressors with the ez build and ba kit sets, and the reivers seem much better with the tactic.
That would make our Gravis Captains really good. 3 shots of 2dmg and the fist at d3+1 sounds amazing
As someone who painted his start set Blood Angels scheme, sounds awesome indeed.
I do hope we get a 'speed' spell, would love to make good use of Aggressors with the ez build and ba kit sets, and the reivers seem much better with the tactic.
Unfortunately I think Wings of Sanguinius is our speed spell, which is only good for the psyker. I'd love to see a different one though, maybe something that lets a unit charge even if it advanced in the same turn.
But I agree, our Chapter tactic is pretty sweet. I keep realising how many things suddenly seem really good with it haha
I'd love to see some sort of advance modifying strategem for sure. But yes it really puts that Primaris 2 attack statline to work - Lieutenants will be a must take for BA armies using infantry, A simple Intercessor squad + Lieutenant will be wounding T3 on 2+ rerolling ones without any sort of CP spend.
Halfpast_Yellow wrote: I'd love to see some sort of advance modifying strategem for sure. But yes it really puts that Primaris 2 attack statline to work - Lieutenants will be a must take for BA armies using infantry, A simple Intercessor squad + Lieutenant will be wounding T3 on 2+ rerolling ones without any sort of CP spend.
Wounding even T4 units on 3's, which is awesome. And lieutenants definitely seem like a great choice for us. Glad we're getting an awesome model to boot. Chaplains will be amazing for us as well. I'm think I'm always going to have a Chappy and Lt in pretty much all of my lists from now on.
I can't wait to see the Sanguinor and a librarian giving a unit +2 attacks, from the aura and spell, to an assault terminator squad and then charging with it. Whatever is on the other end of that is well dead, even if they all had claws.
In fact, even an intercessor squad could do quite a lot in melee with that, especially if a Lieutenant and chaplain were along for the ride. A lot of heroes haha, but they'd all suit a BAngel list very well.
Librarian dread with (unleash rage & wings of sanguinius spells) buffed with artisan of war damage upgrade. Has a melee profile of: S10 WS2 ap -4 D4 A4 (+1 from successful unleash rage)
So it would damage predators (11.111dam average) and damaging land raiders at (9.259 average)
Doesn't sound that bad. Atleast it's better than average captain or priest with hammer and jump pack. -1 to hit for war of artisan weapon isn't that intriguing when you have a force halberd near by. Taking those spells only has a minus factor, you can't cast 5+ inv. save for your dread, so it won't last long you your "screeners" die.
I'd much rather run Wings of Sanguinus and Shield of Sanguinius on my Dread, make the high Toughness model harder to kill with the 4+ invul save. Put Unleash Rage on a nearby foot/jump pack Librarian to buff the Dread or other melee character (Captain, etc) and let him roll with another power as well, since you can only attempt one non-smite power only once per turn in matched play anyway.
I am interested in trying out my Primairs force as blood angels and I was wondering how you guys think the previewed rules and abilities work for Primaris. I really do like the look the Red Thirst tactic and feel it would help the primaris out in melee a lot. In addition the sanguinary priests look like absolute stars with their ability to bring back dead primaris models such as hellblasters, inceptors or aggressors all the while giving out an aura of the oh so great +1 strength. On top of that the priests are HQs making it even easier to get those precious command points.
I really like their banner relic as well especially so for Primaris models due to their two wounds. Their command point relic will work really nicely alongside a grand strategist Imperial Guard warlord with Kurovs Aquila in a small AM detachment.
GodsCronik wrote: I'm really feeling the power that will come from meph and a lib dread winging their way downfield with the codex
It's honestly making me consider running my Knights of Blood as Blood Angels. I don't have much paint on the army right now, so repainting a few models would be easy.
I really want to have access to Dante, Mehpiston and the Sanguinor.
Am I the only one dissapointed with todays spoiler on Facebook?
Bobafett012:
Did you notice any other big changes? Now that is some good news about some great points drops. I have been thinking of building a Librarian Dread, and that pretty much sells me on the idea, since a regular Librarian with Jump Pack doesn't really hold a candle to that kind of offensive power.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Am I the only one dissapointed with todays spoiler on Facebook?
Bobafett012:
Did you notice any other big changes? Now that is some good news about some great points drops. I have been thinking of building a Librarian Dread, and that pretty much sells me on the idea, since a regular Librarian with Jump Pack doesn't really hold a candle to that kind of offensive power.
I came in about halfway through so I missed some stuff, but those point cost reductions stuck out quite a bit. sounds like black rage is the same as it is in the book. they talked about a relic weapon. A sword that is users strength, -3 AP and damage , but against monsters it's D3 damage, and against daemons it's D6 damage. thats ok. They talked about a strategem that made the BA tanks go faster, and baals got even more of a bonus from it. I thought I heard them say there was a strategem that allowed BA to charge longer distances but I could be wrong on that one.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Am I the only one dissapointed with todays spoiler on Facebook?
Bobafett012:
Did you notice any other big changes? Now that is some good news about some great points drops. I have been thinking of building a Librarian Dread, and that pretty much sells me on the idea, since a regular Librarian with Jump Pack doesn't really hold a candle to that kind of offensive power.
I came in about halfway through so I missed some stuff, but those point cost reductions stuck out quite a bit. sounds like black rage is the same as it is in the book. they talked about a relic weapon. A sword that is users strength, -3 AP and damage , but against monsters it's D3 damage, and against daemons it's D6 damage. thats ok. They talked about a strategem that made the BA tanks go faster, and baals got even more of a bonus from it. I thought I heard them say there was a strategem that allowed BA to charge longer distances but I could be wrong on that one.
Now THAT is some interesting information. I have been running a double Battalion army in preparation for the new Codex, since having 9 CP would allow me to use our Strategems more and potentially maximize the damage output of my army early on in the game. With the rumored points drops I end up with a good chunk of leftover points that could be used for a Librarian Dread, or upgrading my Assault Marines to Vanguard Vets. I cannot wait.
I want to know if the DC Dread dropped in points to?
And wanted an opinion on this. From what I've seen TH will go down to 16 points but with the change to Inferno pistols dropping to 9, would it be worthwhile to drop the TH for a chainsword/inferno pistol? Have more attacks for horde but can still fire it in combat and you'd get 2 pistols for 2 more points than the TH. Of course you'd loose shots from the bg/bp but have the chance at putting out a lot more wounds. Also, with the +1 from red thirst you'd be wounding most everyting on 2/3+.
Or even mix and match inferno pistols and pf in a squad. Also this is all in reference to DC. I didn't hear them say anything about their points.
ILegion wrote: I want to know if the DC Dread dropped in points to?
And wanted an opinion on this. From what I've seen TH will go down to 16 points but with the change to Inferno pistols dropping to 9, would it be worthwhile to drop the TH for a chainsword/inferno pistol? Have more attacks for horde but can still fire it in combat and you'd get 2 pistols for 2 more points than the TH. Of course you'd loose shots from the bg/bp but have the chance at putting out a lot more wounds. Also, with the +1 from red thirst you'd be wounding most everyting on 2/3+.
The problem with pistols is that if you charge, your going through 2 CC phases before you can take a single shot with a pistol, that's why the melee weapons are more important. They get your damage done. However, I don't think having a couple inferno pistols is a bad idea in a DC squad at all. I generally run mine with a TH or 2, some axes, although with the +1 to wound, all axes in my army will likely change to swords. Which is good and bad, the good is you don't necessarily need sanguinary priests since your hitting on 3's most of the time anyways, the bad news is, you don't need sanguinary priests which is a huge part of BA army/fluff etc etc.
Yeah I've been running mine with TH and PS with a priest. I'm not sure what I'm gonna do with my priest now. Only thing I can think of is it could put the TH up to str 9 if you need to charge a T8 model.
I haven't used the pistol just because it's so expensive but I think i'm about to have a couple in my dc squad now.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Am I the only one dissapointed with todays spoiler on Facebook?
Bobafett012:
Did you notice any other big changes? Now that is some good news about some great points drops. I have been thinking of building a Librarian Dread, and that pretty much sells me on the idea, since a regular Librarian with Jump Pack doesn't really hold a candle to that kind of offensive power.
I came in about halfway through so I missed some stuff, but those point cost reductions stuck out quite a bit. sounds like black rage is the same as it is in the book. they talked about a relic weapon. A sword that is users strength, -3 AP and damage , but against monsters it's D3 damage, and against daemons it's D6 damage. thats ok. They talked about a strategem that made the BA tanks go faster, and baals got even more of a bonus from it. I thought I heard them say there was a strategem that allowed BA to charge longer distances but I could be wrong on that one.
I thought I heard the same thing about longer charge distances. Tried to get clarification but they didn't see it. Hopefully it's true. There was also a thing about moving Death Company before the game starts. Could be a thing.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Am I the only one dissapointed with todays spoiler on Facebook?
Bobafett012:
Did you notice any other big changes? Now that is some good news about some great points drops. I have been thinking of building a Librarian Dread, and that pretty much sells me on the idea, since a regular Librarian with Jump Pack doesn't really hold a candle to that kind of offensive power.
I came in about halfway through so I missed some stuff, but those point cost reductions stuck out quite a bit. sounds like black rage is the same as it is in the book. they talked about a relic weapon. A sword that is users strength, -3 AP and damage , but against monsters it's D3 damage, and against daemons it's D6 damage. thats ok. They talked about a strategem that made the BA tanks go faster, and baals got even more of a bonus from it. I thought I heard them say there was a strategem that allowed BA to charge longer distances but I could be wrong on that one.
I thought I heard the same thing about longer charge distances. Tried to get clarification but they didn't see it. Hopefully it's true. There was also a thing about moving Death Company before the game starts. Could be a thing.
I would be good with that as i am generally using my CPs to re-roll dice for charge distance anyways, and if one of them isn't at least a 5 or 6, I don't bother, so maybe this would be what BA needs to ensure charges off DS. Here's to hoping.
What I didn't hear any talk about was anything to make ASMs even remotely worth taking over VV, DC, command squad with JPs, and that's a shame. they needed a boost within BA otherwise I see no reason to bother with them.
Would arming my intercessors with Auto bolt rifles be a good idea? Being able to charge up the board while still shooting seems like a good thing to have for BAngels
Tabletop Tactics put up a bat rep with the new BA Codex 1 hour ago! Watching it now for the pre-game Codex review.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, it is confirmed that the Chapter Approved points changes are in the BA Codex! Woo-hoo!
They start talking about the Codex at roughly the 16 minute mark if you want to skip the talk about the World Eaters army.
Here is a list I came up with for the new Codex, I apologize in advance for it being hand written, but BattleScribe isn't updated with the new points costs and added units like the LT (surprise surprise, the book isn't even out yet!).
I really like Vanguard Vets with The Red Thirst, I didn't run a Chaplain with them since it seemed to be way too many points to sink into supporting them when they aren't likely to live long past Deep Striking in. With 40 attacks (the Librarian will be dropping with them), I am willing to play the odds that they can kill what they need to/tie up enough units to be of worth.
The new Strategem giving a Jump Pack unit a 3D6 charge range the turn they drop in will make charges with them far more reliable, and allow them to potentially push far into enemy lines and get more models into combat.
I feel that focusing purely on melee still won't be a great option for us BA players, so heavy weapons is still a must for us. What are you guys coming up with for our new book?
Hah, yeah I found that one after I posted up about the Tabletop Tactics bat rep. I was just so happy that there was apparently some kick-butt Strategens and points drops for our book.
Man. Looks like we lucked out with our Codex, it could have been far worse, but I actually look forward to pre ordering the book now.
I'm loving the look of Primaris BA as well. My starter is all painted up BA ready to go.
Probably going to build around a core of 6 Aggressors(3 BA kit + 3 EZ Build) backed up by Primaris Libby, Primaris Chaplain and Primaris Ancient with the relic banner. 4++ and 5+++ on T5 2W goes a lomg way as my experience with Blightlords shows.
One thing that seems pretty interesting to me is a Librarian with Jump Pack casting Wings of Sanguinius on themselves for 24" of movement. Should make for great late turn objective grabbing, or meeting up with other assault units to pass out buffs, or snipe a wounded character with Smite.
It also seems to have some utility with buffs applied to himself as a decent assassin against lower powered buff characters. Applying the buffs to himself before casting Wings should allow him to somewhat stay out of deny range before boosting in and assassinating something.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What I saw in WintersSEO's review of the Relics seems like kind of a letdown. From what he said it does seem that BA Successors only get access to a single relic, while others seem like they could very useful.
Having a relic that allows a back field buff character to deny a Psychic Power seems like it could be incredibly useful. That kind of makes me think about going Blood Angels over a Successor, since if my buff bot Captain is in melee, he is probably dead anyways.
NH Gunsmith wrote: One thing that seems pretty interesting to me is a Librarian with Jump Pack casting Wings of Sanguinius on themselves for 24" of movement. Should make for great late turn objective grabbing, or meeting up with other assault units to pass out buffs, or snipe a wounded character with Smite.
Can cast 2 powers, so could cast wings and the quickening giving them 24" of move 2D6+3" of charge, +D3 attacks. so that's a possible 39" charge and if you gave him the jump pack relic, he gets to re-roll charge range and no over watch.
EDIT: so Blood Talons got fixed. they are now +4 str, -2 AP, 3 damage, and you get to re-roll all hits AND wounds. now that makes me consider them over fists.
Halfpast_Yellow wrote: I'm loving the look of Primaris BA as well. My starter is all painted up BA ready to go.
Probably going to build around a core of 6 Aggressors(3 BA kit + 3 EZ Build) backed up by Primaris Libby, Primaris Chaplain and Primaris Ancient with the relic banner. 4++ and 5+++ on T5 2W goes a lomg way as my experience with Blightlords shows.
Yeah this looks pretty good. I'd be tempted though to chuck the aggressors into a repulsor and charge it up the board using one of the new stratagems, allowing a vehicle to move an additional 6"
I am really hopeful with these new stratagems and the red thirst. Among other things I plan to field a 15 man DC unit with various weapons, supported by Lemartes and maybe a JP Lieutenant with the new Death Visions of Sanguinius stratagem. That DC unit is going to hit a lot harder now with the new +1 to wound on the charge and above all their prior 50/50 of landing the charge from deep strike is now a 93% with Descent of Angels. This strategy is vulnerable to an opponent with scouting units blocking your deepstrike but even then you have to option of deploying them regularly and rushing them across the field with the DC stratagem. As long as you get the first turn this gives you a 24+d6'' move and then a regular charge, basically another way of landing that turn 1 charge but vulnerable to the turn rolloff. Another vulnerability could be morale damage given the size of the unit. If that turns out to be a problem it can be ignored if you choose to bring a JP Lieutenant and make him your warlord with the fearless aura trait.
Now while it's sad that DC don't get to attack twice in melee like the rumor mill suggested, they can still do so with the use of another stratagem - pricy at 3 CP but possibly gamewinning. At that point you will have burned through 6-7 CP which is a big investment, but consider that none of this is more expensive in terms of pts. It's all just stratagems and a warlord trait - given that BA weren't doing much with their CP previously it's a free upgrade in my book.
I've heard differing accounts of whether DC actually changed price or not. I think winters said they were unchanged around his 19 minute mark, but the TTtactics guys mentioned them getting cheaper.
That aside I'm thinking that my common basic list blueprint will be a vanguard detachment of:
-Big unit of DC to take free move and then move again and try a charge t1.
-Lemartes to DS in near the DC to make their charge rerollable and reroll hits. He's only a coin flip at making his own charge, but with a big unit of DC, someone can stay back in his aura.
-Big unit of SG to descent of angels charge t1.
-SG ancient to give the SG reroll 1's to wound, fearless, and hold the relic FNP 5+ banner. Probs be the warlord so the SG can also reroll hits for him being nearby. Not sure what trait he'd want yet. Maybe just the 6" intervention.
That seems like one of the best "core" blueprints at around 800ish points for the max size squads depending on exact wargear, and after that I'd just adjust to fit the point level. Obv need at least two more units to start on the table so that 3 can DS, which could be as little as a couple scout squads to fit in under 1k easily, but against all but the most elite armies, probably looking at having less deployments for +1 to first turn roll. This blueprint does want to spend ALL 4 of it's CP immediately though.
Probs want to get a battallion mixed in for more CP at 2k. Thinking Mephy or libby dread would make a great deployed HQ for another detachment as a move + wings + quickening could threaten another early charge.
I'm looking forward to the terminator-specific stratagem. Because getting rerolls on ALL attacks on a turn of shooting+charge is lookin' pretty damn good.
Another thing I thought of, is Deep Striking a Jump Pack Librarian with the relic Jump Pack in with a squad of Vanguard Vets. Cast Unleash Rage on the Vets, and Wings of Sanguinius on himself to set up an impossible to fail charge and stop Overwatch so the Vets can come in unmolested.
I will be trying that out next week when the book is out, it seems like it can be very powerful when trying to charge units with auto-hitting weapons.
The more I think about that relic banner that let's you get a CP on a 5= when you use a strategem, the worse I think it is. I mean, many of the good BA strategems are 2CPs, and if you only have 5 or 6 CPs to begin with, it's just not going to be very efficient. Now if you had 6+ CPs and only used 1 CP strats, then i'd say it might be worth it.
I think the FnP banner, the Thunder Hammer, and the JP relics are the best ones.
Martel732 wrote: I've heard DC are the same price, but have more rules.
Not from the couple codex reviews i've seen. same points, same rules.
Melissia wrote: I'm looking forward to the terminator-specific stratagem. Because getting rerolls on ALL attacks on a turn of shooting+charge is lookin' pretty damn good.
I've found that to be one of the weaker strategems the BA have. Cost 2 CP to give them an ability that many characters, like Dante already give. If you take assault terms then you miss out on the shooting, and if you fail the charge, the entire strategem is wasted. If you take tactical terms, you get the shooting but if you fail your charge your paying to CPs to re-roll storm bolters and a heavy weapon. Just not worth 2, i'd rather DS Dante next to them and get the same benefit plus have a CC beast to charge in next turn.
I don't use dante. In fact, I don't use any named characters, on principle-- yes, I know I know, "rename them to someone else", nah, no thanks.
Regardless, I'm using terminators primarily (along with some scouts and jump pack death company) so anything that's specific to them is something I like.
I'm no Martel, so obviously my word counts for very little, but I'm really looking forward to this book. The points cost changes, the stratagems, the relics, all are good.
That's a matter of you, the player, positioning your units right pre-charge.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BlaxicanX wrote: Do you see a primarily melee build being viable?
Far more than before, at least. Making the charge is easier than before, and the damage you do on the charge is much, MUCH higher than before. Your characters have better versatility, and your stratagems and librarian powers allow for some superb alpha strikes.
Oh, and you can have a flying death company librarian dreadnought. So you have that going for you.
Visions of sanguinius is only for capt, lieutenants or chaplains.. so no flying DC librarian dreads :( Would have been cool though.
It seems that for some stupid reason sanguinary priests can't have jump packs or any weapon upgrades. Mine is built with magnets for arm and jump pack option.. Don't really want to use the index version.
Does anyone happen to know if our company veterans have still access to jump pack?
Codex feels promising so far, although CP's will burn fast.. Veritas vitae feels an auto-include.
p5freak wrote: The problem of making the charge still remains. Yes we can reroll now or use 3D6 with stratagems, but that's only for one or two units.
Yes, but we are in a far better spot than we are currently. Currently, your only hope is DC along with Lemartes. Now we can still do the DC with Lemartes, and maybe a lucky charge but also Sang guard, which got 8 points per model cheaper!!, or VV using the 3D6 strategem, or use the DC pre game move to get a first turn charge, then bring another squad with Lemartes in via DS, another squad, either Sang guard or VV with the 3D6, and a Libby dread with wings and the quickening on top of all that. i mean, if you could pull off 3 or 4 alpha strike charges, we're good to go. Back all that up with maybe some of the cheaper flyers we have access too from the space marine book or the cheaper AC/LC preds or tri-las preds for fire support and I think we might have something.
Some of our psychic powers, and relics can really help with all of this. i think we got 3 good psychic powers, and 3 good relics.
I'm more upbeat that I was before, i will say that for sure. I really wish Decent of angels was an ability of JP models rather than a strategem, but I guess i'll take what i can get.
Xirax wrote: It seems that for some stupid reason sanguinary priests can't have jump packs or any weapon upgrades. Mine is built with magnets for arm and jump pack option.. Don't really want to use the index version.
No reason you should feel awkward about using the index stuff. It's fully legal and supported by GW.
Xirax wrote: Codex feels promising so far, although CP's will burn fast.. Veritas vitae feels an auto-include.
Agreed about burning though CPs, disagree about Veritas Vitae. How many CPs will our lists have on average? 5 or 6 maybe? so if your using some 2 CP strats, say 2, and 2 1 CP strats, on average, your going to get back exactly 1 CP. Do you think that's worth a relic spot? I don't. there's 3 others that are far better and will do more over the course of a game than a single CP.
So Shield of Sanguinius Psypower is 5++. That's a bit of a blow.
Seems very CP hungry. Some amazing tools, but can only really pull them off once. For example, relocating the Jump DC and rolling 3D6 charge is 4CP. If you're already using CP to get them in the first time, on top of an extra relic, or boosting your warlord...
For that reason I can see the Veritas Vitae being the default for any army that's planning to use a big Jump DC or Sang Guard or VV.
I'm just wondering the best way to pull off a double Battalion.
Seems very CP hungry. Some amazing tools, but can only really pull them off once. For example, relocating the Jump DC and rolling 3D6 charge is 4CP. If you're already using CP to get them in the first time, on top of an extra relic, or boosting your warlord...
For that reason I can see the Veritas Vitae being the default for any army that's planning to use a big Jump DC or Sang Guard or VV.
Again, this doesn't make sense to me. I hear all the you tubers saying it, after you think about it it doesn't make sense. If you using lot's of 2 or eve some 3 CP strats, your not going to get hardly any CPs back. It's only when you use a strategem, and regardless of the CP cost, you roll a single D6, and get a single CP back on a 5 or 6. I think your scenario is wrong though, relocating JP squad is 1 point, and 3D6 harge is 2 CP so 3, but even still, that scenario you've spent 3 CPs and only have a %66 chance to get 1 back. That just seems super inefficient to me, for an army that has expensive units, and expensive strategems. Too many other good relics to choose form
Melissia wrote: That's a matter of you, the player, positioning your units right pre-charge.
Right, sure, please tell me how i position my units right pre-charge when i deepstrike with JP. I havent seen anything about the rumored +1 to charge rolls. Or did i miss that ?
Seems very CP hungry. Some amazing tools, but can only really pull them off once. For example, relocating the Jump DC and rolling 3D6 charge is 4CP. If you're already using CP to get them in the first time, on top of an extra relic, or boosting your warlord...
For that reason I can see the Veritas Vitae being the default for any army that's planning to use a big Jump DC or Sang Guard or VV.
Again, this doesn't make sense to me. I hear all the you tubers saying it, after you think about it it doesn't make sense. If you using lot's of 2 or eve some 3 CP strats, your not going to get hardly any CPs back. It's only when you use a strategem, and regardless of the CP cost, you roll a single D6, and get a single CP back on a 5 or 6. I think your scenario is wrong though, relocating JP squad is 1 point, and 3D6 harge is 2 CP so 3, but even still, that scenario you've spent 3 CPs and only have a %66 chance to get 1 back. That just seems super inefficient to me, for an army that has expensive units, and expensive strategems. Too many other good relics to choose form
It's a matter of getting anyCPs back. They're one of the most scarce resources available with very limited ways to obtain more. When your army is hungry on CPs, just having an extra one, maybe two is excellent. If you're going all in on Jump pack assaulters, why wouldn't you take it as default.
Sure, it's more questionable to grab as a second and definitely third, but otherwise there's really nothing better. The banner is a great relic, but is skornegistic with Death Company.
It's a matter of getting anyCPs back. They're one of the most scarce resources available with very limited ways to obtain more. When your army is hungry on CPs, just having an extra one, maybe two is excellent. If you're going all in on Jump pack assaulters, why wouldn't you take it as default.
Mainly because I'd rather have half the rest of them because I think they are just better and will do more work. The FnP banner, the non-unweildy Thunder hammer, the no over watch, re-roll charge JP i think are all much better and will be more beneficial than possibly getting back 1 or 2 CPs.
Getting CPs is not that hard. You can include an AM detachment with an officer who uses the kurovs aquila relic. Whenever your opponent spends a CP you can roll a dice, on a 5+ you gain 1 CP. Add that to our 5+ roll to get 1 CP back and your chances of getting CPs went up.
p5freak wrote: Getting CPs is not that hard. You can include an AM detachment with an officer who uses the kurovs aquila relic. Whenever your opponent spends a CP you can roll a dice, on a 5+ you gain 1 CP. Add that to our 5+ roll to get 1 CP back and your chances of getting CPs went up.
Correct, but now your talking about allying in other armies. I'm playing Blood Angels, not any other shenanigans to take advantage of this particular relic. In that particular build I would agree it has more value, but in a standard Blood Angels build, certainly a JP heavy one, your not getting a bunch of CPs to start with. In my head I can't make the math tell me it's worth taking over a few of the other relics, I think they have much more value to the army.
I don't have the codex yet. Still processing my chapter approved book.
Regardless of the specifics, ask, "Can this codex deal with screens?". If the answer is "better than before", it's an improvement. If the answer is "No, we still autolose to screens", then the codex doesn't do jack.
What I am planning on doing is taking the Veritas Vitae and a company commander with the aquila and make said commander my warlord with the grand strategist warlord trait. That way every time I use a stratagm I get two 5+ dice to gain a command point on top of the grand strategist warlord trait applying to each individual CP. Throw in Kurov's aquila and thats another 5+ to steal a command point every time the other guys uses one. Thats some healthy extra CP.
I agree with you boba. The fact that the codex leans more towards stratagems that cost multiple CP makes the relic less than optimal unless you are bringing like 8+ CP. If you read the stratagem it says that you only get one(cp) back PER stratagem not CP used.
Also this codex brings about a significant increase in mobility, especially, flying mobility. This means you can bypass screens with the majority of your hammers and apply them directly to the opponent's forehead. Also of note, with the +1 to wound on the charge screens will melt like hot butter to chainsword wielders, specific mention goes to DC.
p5freak wrote: If you have 6 CPs you get 2 back, at a roll of 5+.
this is only true if you use 1 CP stratagems all game. If you use 2 3 CP strats you don’t even average 1. The book is looking good but I find it pretty funny that our combo of CP regen and deny the witch relic/trait makes us look like discount brand ultramarines. Also disappointed by the cost on Baal Preds. Already seems like we need a FAQ on Lucifer engines. Also funny is how god awful that relic sword is.
I'm just wondering the best way to pull off a double Battalion.
I have been running a double Battalion Detachment army for a while now to prepare for our Codex. It has performed admirably well with Assault Marines over Vanguard Vets, but with the points cuts I am now taking Vanguard Vets and dropped a Missile Devastator Squad and replaced it with two Twin-Las/CCW Dreads.
The Relics and Strategems available to us, along with the Red Thirst put my army in the best place it has ever been since 8th dropped. Went down to the store today to pre-order my book, and ended up talking for 3 hours with the other players about tactics and the overall feel of the book. I am very confident in my army's ability to hold it's own on the table now.
For that reason I can see the Veritas Vitae being the default for any army that's planning to use a big Jump DC or Sang Guard or VV.
I honestly have no plan to use this Relic. The Jump Pack, and Relic that gives a character the ability to deny Psyker powers will be the winner for my army. I only have a single Librarian with Jump Pack, so always felt under equipped to combat Psykers.
The Dread Librarian looks amazing, but I am still not sold. I would rather Unleash Rage go into a max unit of Veterans/Sanguinary Guard over the Dread himself, and he seems to be slow UNLESS you get Wings of Sanguinius off. I would rather use him to support my units and occasionally use Wings to go in and assassinate something. If the Libby Dread is buffing only himself than the units around him will start to fall apart pretty quickly, leaving him stranded. I like the idea of my Librarian acting as an assassin that can threaten 24+ inches between normal movement and Wings, it will force opponents to think about where they place their weaker buff characters, and potentially make them stay back further and not be boosting their front lines while I apply buffs to my assault units.
Edit. I kept thinking the ability to deny a Psyker power was a Relic, nope... a Warlord Trait. Even better!
As awesome as a Libby Dread is, Wings and the +d3 attacks power screams Termy Libby instead to me. Deepstrike into cover near where you want to be, Wings past screens, and hit any support/ranged that isn't closely screened easily. With axe and shield, that's 3+d3 swings wounding T4 or less on 2s. With the 3++ from the shield, he'll be hard to remove without something dedicated. Worst case, solid distraction 'fex or it forces your opponent to clump their screen tighter.
JDarion wrote: As awesome as a Libby Dread is, Wings and the +d3 attacks power screams Termy Libby instead to me. Deepstrike into cover near where you want to be, Wings past screens, and hit any support/ranged that isn't closely screened easily. With axe and shield, that's 3+d3 swings wounding T4 or less on 2s. With the 3++ from the shield, he'll be hard to remove without something dedicated. Worst case, solid distraction 'fex or it forces your opponent to clump their screen tighter.
I suppose but there is a slight problem with that. I don't believe Terminator libbys can take storm shields anymore. I know they can't in the space marine book, which means you have to go back and use the index and they are over costed by 25 points in that book. 145 points instead of the new 120 points so that kind of sucks...
JDarion wrote: As awesome as a Libby Dread is, Wings and the +d3 attacks power screams Termy Libby instead to me. Deepstrike into cover near where you want to be, Wings past screens, and hit any support/ranged that isn't closely screened easily. With axe and shield, that's 3+d3 swings wounding T4 or less on 2s. With the 3++ from the shield, he'll be hard to remove without something dedicated. Worst case, solid distraction 'fex or it forces your opponent to clump their screen tighter.
I suppose but there is a slight problem with that. I don't believe Terminator libbys can take storm shields anymore. I know they can't in the space marine book, which means you have to go back and use the index and they are over costed by 25 points in that book. 145 points instead of the new 120 points so that kind of sucks...
That is kind of a bummer. Don't we also have a Strategem that gives +D3 attacks to a character as well? The amount of hate my Jump Pack Librarian is going to be throwing out when we get our Codex makes me happy.
What are people's thoughts on giving Intercessor Squads Auto Bolt Rifles and a Chainsword on the Sergeant? It seems like they would do pretty well as they can keep on the move and charge if needed.
With the Red Thirst, I am considering taking Power Swords instead of Power Fists on my Assault Squads.
Also, with Lucifer Pattern Engines, since you have to use it before advancing, but it isn't predicated on you actually Advancing, could you just use LPE and not advance, and get the extra movement?
Lastly, I definitely am taking a Librarian. Casting Wings and Quickening on a JP Libby is a good way to ruin someone's day.
Power swords and power axes doubled in point costs in CA, which is stupid. A power sword is now 8 pts., and it does S+0, AP-3 and D1. Compare that to a powerfist for 12 pts.which is S*2, AP-3 and D3 roll for damage.
p5freak wrote: Power swords and power axes doubled in point costs in CA, which is stupid. A power sword is now 8 pts., and it does S+0, AP-3 and D1. Compare that to a powerfist for 12 pts.which is S*2, AP-3 and D3 roll for damage.
Look again, Power Swords and Power Axes remain the same. Force Swords and Force Axes went down in points!
p5freak wrote: Power swords and power axes doubled in point costs in CA, which is stupid. A power sword is now 8 pts., and it does S+0, AP-3 and D1. Compare that to a powerfist for 12 pts.which is S*2, AP-3 and D3 roll for damage.
Look again, Power Swords and Power Axes remain the same. Force Swords and Force Axes went down in points!
p5freak wrote: Power swords and power axes doubled in point costs in CA, which is stupid. A power sword is now 8 pts., and it does S+0, AP-3 and D1. Compare that to a powerfist for 12 pts.which is S*2, AP-3 and D3 roll for damage.
Look again, Power Swords and Power Axes remain the same. Force Swords and Force Axes went down in points!
You're right
Red Thirst has drastically increases my desire to run Power Swords on my Assault Squad Sergeants. Power Fists took a major hit.
p5freak wrote: Power swords and power axes doubled in point costs in CA, which is stupid. A power sword is now 8 pts., and it does S+0, AP-3 and D1. Compare that to a powerfist for 12 pts.which is S*2, AP-3 and D3 roll for damage.
Look again, Power Swords and Power Axes remain the same. Force Swords and Force Axes went down in points!
You're right
Red Thirst has drastically increases my desire to run Power Swords on my Assault Squad Sergeants. Power Fists took a major hit.
Oh? I must have missed that, how much did Force Swords go down? And, I guess the Lightning Claw on my Assault Squad Sergeants might not be as terrible as it has been pre-Codex.
Vanguard veterans with a pair of lightning claws and the sergent with the relic sword and plasma pistols look juicy enough for me now. I'm disappointed that DC still have that rubbish 6+ FnP...
Spado wrote: Vanguard veterans with a pair of lightning claws and the sergent with the relic sword and plasma pistols look juicy enough for me now. I'm disappointed that DC still have that rubbish 6+ FnP...
I for one am glad my tactical squad sergeant has a lightning claw & Combiflamer combo.
DC have the 6+ save, and I do wish it was 5+, but it is what it is. It's not great vs multiple damage weapons, but does at least give you a shot at saving against mortal wounds or the odd single wound that makes it through.
Can't wait to get my hands on the codex next weekend. Really looking forward to it.
The really hard part is going to be writing lists with enough CP. Given what they have it seems like they can go cheetah mode and have a decent burst of power, but only while chewing through CP faster than a pedophile. (Heh.) Once those run out we lose a lot of power.
Example in a 1x SG unit and 1x DC unit list, you're throwing 4 CP turn one to get a 3d6 charge on the SG and an easy charge for the DC, not to mention 1 for an extra relic if taken, 1 to make a character a DC, and a probable reroll on something like a psychic power such as wings, or a die out of the 3d6SG charge. T2 if they weren't able to deal with all 3 of the early charges, one of the surviving units will want to go berserk in the middle of their forces with 3 CP for a double fight, not to mention that a specialist squad such as company vets with melta/plasma may want to use wings of fire for 1 CP to relocate somewhere. That's anywhere from 7-11 CP in two turns, which leaves very little to be used on the likes of combat interrupts, hellfire shells, flakk missiles etc.
And of course building to accommodate for this massive CP expenditure rate means that other than the workhorse squads, everything else will be MSU spam, becoming a liability in kill points and hindering the chances of getting first turn.
I daresay most CPs in any armies I run will be burnt after the first turn, between Decent of Angels and the Death Company's extra movement. Suppose it's not too rough at least knowing where they'll go
I'm not so sure on that, I seem to recall Death Company gaining some buff from being near Sang Guard (not entirely sure, might be entirely wrong).
In any case, I'm keen to run list where Death Company charge up the board, while Sang Guard deep strike in. With luck get two first turn charges off.
Coyote81 wrote: Does anyone know if Blood Angels will be getting standard Lieutenants that can take JPs? This seems like it could be really big.
Per one of the reviews, yes they will have the basic Lieutenant. The Codex Space Marines version can take a Jump Pack, so I don't see why the Blood Angels one wouldn't be able to.
Darkseid wrote: So I if were to go for a pure Primaris army; is there a reason to use the new BA rules over vanilla marines?
Yes. Blood Angels have some pretty sweet rules. The Red Thirst will be great with Reivers or even Intercessors (who can take a Chainsword on the Sergeant). The Upon Wings of Fire Strategem actually sounds like it will work incredibly awesome with either type of Inceptor. I am going to run a squad of Plasma Exterminator Inceptors just because now. You can still do Floating Murder Bus (Aggressors, Lieutenant, Gravis Captain, and an Apothecary inside a Repulsor) to decent effect. About the only unit that doesn't really work out well for Blood Angels is Hellblasters. However, charging those Hellblasters is going to be bad news.
So while they won't have some of the Blood Angels toys, they will still be good.
niv-mizzet wrote: The really hard part is going to be writing lists with enough CP.
My current list will have the following: Battleforged +3, Battallion +3, Vanguard +1, Vanguard +1. That's a respectable amount. But I don't imagine many others will use that many scouts (you need at least 15 scout models). People like to downplay scout snipers too much.
niv-mizzet wrote: The really hard part is going to be writing lists with enough CP.
My current list will have the following:
Battleforged +3, Battallion +3, Vanguard +1, Vanguard +1. That's a respectable amount. But I don't imagine many others will use that many scouts (you need at least 15).
I have found Intercessors to be worth the investment over Scouts. Right now I am trying to debate how I want to equip my Blood Angels ones though.
Do I want to give them regular Bolt Rifles and have them sit in my backfield, or do I want to give them Auto Bolt Rifles and have them running around?
I can't afford to "upgrade" my scouts to intercessors without having to remove a unit, causing me to lose one of those vanguard detachments. The additional CP is far more important.
Melissia wrote: I can't afford to "upgrade" my scouts to intercessors without having to remove a unit, causing me to lose one of those vanguard detachments. The additional CP is far more important.
Yeah, you're right. It sucks so bad that our Strategems are so expensive. They should be 1CP max. It isn't like they let us drop right in, we can still fail our Charge on Descent of Angels and Forlorn Fury is not a guarantee for a charge either.
Martel732 wrote: Don't use SG and DC in the same list. That helps right there.
Ding Ding Ding! I understand the excitement but there really is no way to run both in a 2k list AND have enough CP's to guarantee everything and honestly thats a good thing. If they auto assaulted with both turn 1 and had CP's to burn after we would just have another codex in need of a nerf bat. Personally I think points can be saved across the entire army now by taking the humble powers sword in concert with character support thanks to the red thirst. The red thirst makes a standard marine in range of a priest wound most infantry on a 2+ and beat every vehicle on 4+ including t8... Heaven help them if they charge in new units to help since it keeps the ability triggering.
I think the Sanguinary guard are the hardest hitting unit, maybe in the game. Just don't take TH and PF on them anymore, there is no point lol. Sword encarmines across the board with the odd inferno pistol to shoot into walkers.
I think the key will be finding the proper build around one of the said units to provide enough support and CP's. I think if you force them to deal with a brick of SG or DC for the first 2-3 turns you should be locking up the objectives in the meantime.
Melissia wrote: It does. But on the bright side, once I get the book in front of me I'll see what I can do.
Unfortunately, none of the primaris characters can get the best BA relic...
Which relic is that? Veritas Vitae seems pretty decent and it could help keep some CP in the bank.
The hammer or the jetpack are the only ones I think.
Definitely good. The hammer is pretty great on a Terminator Captain (what's this? There is a model for that? And I have him painted!). I am probably going to run the Veritas Vitae instead of the Jump Pack just to make sure I don't run out of CP. I decided I am going to add some Black back into my list (a 15-man murder squad) and they need Lemartes to be running alongside them.
Martel732 wrote: Don't use SG and DC in the same list. That helps right there.
Ding Ding Ding! I understand the excitement but there really is no way to run both in a 2k list AND have enough CP's to guarantee everything and honestly thats a good thing. If they auto assaulted with both turn 1 and had CP's to burn after we would just have another codex in need of a nerf bat. Personally I think points can be saved across the entire army now by taking the humble powers sword in concert with character support thanks to the red thirst. The red thirst makes a standard marine in range of a priest wound most infantry on a 2+ and beat every vehicle on 4+ including t8... Heaven help them if they charge in new units to help since it keeps the ability triggering.
I think the Sanguinary guard are the hardest hitting unit, maybe in the game. Just don't take TH and PF on them anymore, there is no point lol. Sword encarmines across the board with the odd inferno pistol to shoot into walkers.
I think the key will be finding the proper build around one of the said units to provide enough support and CP's. I think if you force them to deal with a brick of SG or DC for the first 2-3 turns you should be locking up the objectives in the meantime.
There's absolutely a way to run both in 2k and still have 9-10 CP. Lemmy, a sanguinary ancient with relic banner, a full DC and a full SG squad only come out to 800ish depending on gear. You can make that a vanguard and fit two battalions in the other 1200. That's the list I'm probably going to be trying out at first, with a possible blitz of SG, DC, and Mephy in t1 for 4 CP, and then if something gets into their guts and lives to t2, charge everything around and burn 3 CP to double fight.
I am however considering doing two SG squads and staggering their arrivals across t1 and 2 instead though, as the DC strat wants first turn and the SG using the 3d6 charge out of deep strike don't care who went first. That would let me knock out Lemmy and do some other support things with the HQ slot like have a captain in the backfield with some ranged elements.
Jump pack relic. Denying overwatch to a huge swath of shooty armies is extremely powerful.
Oh definitely. I want to rush that guy forward and have him be flanked by a murder squad of some sort. He gets in, then no one gets Overwatch against them. Take that Tau!
Or Guard for that matter. Oh, I'm sorry, 3 Leman Russ Punisher tanks parked too close together, who moved forward to try to get in range to obliterate my entire army in one turn, you don't get your 69 shots of overwatch. Also feth you too.
Upon wings of fire question. So they way I read this stratagem is that you can set up your unit more than 9” away and then still move. This is because it is done at the beginning of the movement phase and does not say the unit counts as moving. Any other interpretations? This is clearly RAW but I am curious if it is RAI.
broxus wrote: Upon wings of fire question. So they way I read this stratagem is that you can set up your unit more than 9” away and then still move. This is because it is done at the beginning of the movement phase and does not say the unit counts as moving. Any other interpretations? This is clearly RAW but I am curious if it is RAI.
You'll have to post exact wording if you want a %100 answer or close to it but every single thing I've read on it and seen from others is that they don't get to move, you pick them up off the table (beginning of movement phase maybe?), Then place them at the end of the move phase just as you would for DSing units.
broxus wrote: Upon wings of fire question. So they way I read this stratagem is that you can set up your unit more than 9” away and then still move. This is because it is done at the beginning of the movement phase and does not say the unit counts as moving. Any other interpretations? This is clearly RAW but I am curious if it is RAI.
You set them up at the end of the phase. So you won't be able to move. I plan on trying it with a squad of Inceptors (probably Plasma).
on Wings of Fire: 1 CP, use this stratagem at the beginning of your movement phase before moving a Blood Angels Jump Pack unit. Remove the unit from the battlefield and then set it up at the end of the phase, anywhere on the battlefield more than 9″ from any enemy models.
broxus wrote: on Wings of Fire: 1 CP, use this stratagem at the beginning of your movement phase before moving a Blood Angels Jump Pack unit. Remove the unit from the battlefield and then set it up at the end of the phase, anywhere on the battlefield more than 9″ from any enemy models.
Yep at the end of the phase.
One thing it does allow is blasting off out of combat, landing on the opposite side of the field, and laying down a bunch of shooting. I am going to try it with some Inceptors with Plasma Exterminators.
broxus wrote: on Wings of Fire: 1 CP, use this stratagem at the beginning of your movement phase before moving a Blood Angels Jump Pack unit. Remove the unit from the battlefield and then set it up at the end of the phase, anywhere on the battlefield more than 9″ from any enemy models.
Yep at the end of the phase.
One thing it does allow is blasting off out of combat, landing on the opposite side of the field, and laying down a bunch of shooting. I am going to try it with some Inceptors with Plasma Exterminators.
It also seems handy for teleporting an assault unit back to your lines to take care of enemy units, and be healed by Sang Priests/Apothecaries before charging back into the fray.
Without having the Strategems in front of me to carefully read, how does it interract with the Strategem that allows 3D6 charge range after arriving from Reserves. Because, wouldn't On Wings of Fire technicaly place them back into Reserves based off the Reserves wording? It probably doesn't work that way, but it sure as heck would be sweet.
Ok,
So I've scheduled two small games for next sunday. 1250 points armies to test chapter approved new missions. I'm testing my DG list and for the second game I'll try out the new BA. I've got tons of models, but for such a small match I'm having second thought what new combo I could easily pull.
What do you guys feel does the new codex seem that have competitive stuff for smaller games? Fast dreads.. If I burn all the CP at T1 I could try to get two charges in..
I was doing some mathammer and found power axes a bit disappointing atleast with my DC. Tried bunch up setups 15man blob with different weapons, with sang priest, with unleashed rage, against T4-8. power swords better ap seemed better than +1 to wound against T4 in the big picture. Also I'm trying to understand the complaints about BA and power fists.. Similar thoughts?
Anyways, if you want to know more about my next sunday's match and help me a bit, check the spoiler. Otherwise, let's end it here.
12man death company + jump packs + thunder hammer + 3x power sword
Biggest threat feel in the RG list: hellblasters and army wide -1 to hit. make a screen with my troops and wait the inceptors to get killed before I engage other units. DC for T1 charge, hopefully something else than a single intercessor squad, they won't last a round of shooting from the hellblasters. I might change the unleash rage to shield of sanguinius to protect my DC?
the_scotsman wrote: I don't see them in the last few changes, but here are the major points changes you blood angels folks will be seeing (from the MWG video
Huh. Than that is interesting Martel. Getting off 2 long bomb 3D6 charges off with the same unit in a single game seems like it could be very good (if thr unit survives after the first one).
the_scotsman wrote: I don't see them in the last few changes, but here are the major points changes you blood angels folks will be seeing (from the MWG video
Assault marines now get melta and plasma guns
I wonder what this means exactly. 1 per five? 2?
Dunno. I assume it works like their normal flamers, so 2 in the unit? I just wrote down things as the MWG guy said them, and I think with this he just said "And assault squads get meltas and plasmas again, which is nice as they always have had them".
the_scotsman wrote: I don't see them in the last few changes, but here are the major points changes you blood angels folks will be seeing (from the MWG video review)
Gabriel Seth - bunch of buffs including Chapter Master, extra AP, extra hit on 6 in the Fight Phase
No more sang Priests with jump pack/bike in codex. Still in index. Ditto for tons of other index-only options.
lib dread 20pts cheaper
termie lib down 25pts
Chaplain termie down 15pts
Astorath's weapon +1s
Tycho the Lost new "dead mans hand" (Melee S:user AP-2 Dd3)
Cpt Tycho also gains dead man's hand
termie captain down 15pts
16 new units (lieutenants, primaris stuff, planes, anti air vehicles, etc)
techmarine down 13pts
Tactical squad - sergeant may now take a Melta Bomb
Sanguinary Guard down 2 points
Chapter Banner nerfed - was immune to morale, now +1LD. Bonus to wound rolls stays the same.
Sanguinary Novitiate new unit (identical to basic apothecary with Bloody Blood blood name)
DC Dread down 38pts
Terminator Ancient new unit
Company Champion down 16pts
Terminator assault squad down 5ppm
Furioso Dread down 52 points
Blood Talons now S+4 -2AP 3Damage, reroll failed hit and wound rolls for this weapon
Assault marines now get melta and plasma guns
So, looks like we're talking about dreadnoughts again...yowza....
Assault Marines could always take Melta and Plasma...
Gutted about Sanguinary Priest and lack of JP/Bike. I wanted a JP Assault Army and Sanguinary Priests were the way to buff that up to wounding on 3+ (2+ now on charge turn).
Optimistic though. Not sure what to make of Sanguinary Guard being 2pts cheaper...hopefully Death Company are Fearless this time around lol.
the_scotsman wrote: I don't see them in the last few changes, but here are the major points changes you blood angels folks will be seeing (from the MWG video review)
Gabriel Seth - bunch of buffs including Chapter Master, extra AP, extra hit on 6 in the Fight Phase
No more sang Priests with jump pack/bike in codex. Still in index. Ditto for tons of other index-only options.
lib dread 20pts cheaper
termie lib down 25pts
Chaplain termie down 15pts
Astorath's weapon +1s
Tycho the Lost new "dead mans hand" (Melee S:user AP-2 Dd3)
Cpt Tycho also gains dead man's hand
termie captain down 15pts
16 new units (lieutenants, primaris stuff, planes, anti air vehicles, etc)
techmarine down 13pts
Tactical squad - sergeant may now take a Melta Bomb
Sanguinary Guard down 2 points
Chapter Banner nerfed - was immune to morale, now +1LD. Bonus to wound rolls stays the same.
Sanguinary Novitiate new unit (identical to basic apothecary with Bloody Blood blood name)
DC Dread down 38pts
Terminator Ancient new unit
Company Champion down 16pts
Terminator assault squad down 5ppm
Furioso Dread down 52 points
Blood Talons now S+4 -2AP 3Damage, reroll failed hit and wound rolls for this weapon
Assault marines now get melta and plasma guns
So, looks like we're talking about dreadnoughts again...yowza....
Assault Marines could always take Melta and Plasma...
Gutted about Sanguinary Priest and lack of JP/Bike. I wanted a JP Assault Army and Sanguinary Priests were the way to buff that up to wounding on 3+ (2+ now on charge turn).
Optimistic though. Not sure what to make of Sanguinary Guard being 2pts cheaper...hopefully Death Company are Fearless this time around lol.
He didn't mention that they were, and he was mentioning rule changes that he found from Index to Codex. I'm sure there are some FAQ level changes - maybe the meltas and plasmas were one of those. He did say he hadn't checked the faqs, just the two books he had.
I mean, with the JP/bike, you can just use the index values for them. They didn't go anywhere - its the same as every single other faction losing the "no models no points" options. I didn't even bother to list out all the things that changed from that, as to me I don't consider them actually lost, just not in the codex.
IMO, Death Company are likely to overshadow standard assault squads and sanguinaries given these changes. with the ability to bring a character along in the Black Rage Party, if you're going to run classic Blood Angel Jump Pack Boogaloo, you might as well bring Death Company and Lemartes along with a death companified captain to grant them all charge re-rolls. Encarmine swords do work pretty well with Red Thirst letting Sanguines chop up tanks fairly easily, but...not 33ppm well, lol. Death Company with Lemartes for the win.
What do you think of captain with jumpack, pair of LC + artisan of war. Then you can give him DC keyword if you want and some tasty relic like the special jetpack.
It's easily as good or better than dante vs most of the stuff. And for twice cheaper.
And for vehicle/big stuff the same version with TH and inferno pistol or SS.
Most competitive lists just see Dante as "dude with the chapter master buff that you can have keep up with your fast stuff." It's why you pretty frequently see the old standard SM tourney lists run as "Blood Angels" (using only Dante as the sole BA specific unit then just assbacks and stormravens). Guilliman's to wound buff wasn't worth his inability to keep up with the stormravens to them.
If you are taking Dante, you're running gunline-angels, IMO. Which, honestly, seems pretty bad compared to gunline-DA with Azrael, so I don't know why you'd do that.
I'm guessing the standard "takin my BA to a tournament" type list is going to involve Death Company, Lemartes, a libbydread, and a fun-sized 400pt IG battalion to bring 3 more CPs to the table for the Death Company to snack on.
Will it work? Ehhhh, maybe. Recent tournament I went to basically everything was coming up Genestealers and Eldar, not a screened gunline in sight, and DC do have the option to forgo deep strike in favor of the 1cp "sprint up the board" stratagem - that might actually be half decent in the matchup against the dark reaper forwarned boogeyman list. Similar to how Genestealers are good against that list - you take the Swarmlord and a Trygon and depending whether the opponent has forewarned you either use Swarmy to get the stealers up the board or if they don't you bring them in with the Trygon.
As someone looking to get into Blood Angels (want to match my Orks for Armageddon fluff) is there anything worth getting now model-wise or is it just better to wait? The start collecting box seems kind of underwhelming
PandatheWarrior wrote: What do you think of captain with jumpack, pair of LC + artisan of war. Then you can give him DC keyword if you want and some tasty relic like the special jetpack.
Nothing. Why waste his BS 2+ ? Give him JP, inferno pistol and the thunderhammer without -1 to hit. He can shoot the pistol in the shooting phase, charge, fight with the hammer, shoot the pistol next turn, or disengage from CC if needed and still shoot. 1 CP for black rage, and gift of foresight for 5+++.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dendarien wrote: As someone looking to get into Blood Angels (want to match my Orks for Armageddon fluff) is there anything worth getting now model-wise or is it just better to wait? The start collecting box seems kind of underwhelming
Furioso librarian, DC dreads, DC, veterans with JP, captains and lieutenants.
the_scotsman wrote: Most competitive lists just see Dante as "dude with the chapter master buff that you can have keep up with your fast stuff." It's why you pretty frequently see the old standard SM tourney lists run as "Blood Angels" (using only Dante as the sole BA specific unit then just assbacks and stormravens). Guilliman's to wound buff wasn't worth his inability to keep up with the stormravens to them.
If you are taking Dante, you're running gunline-angels, IMO. Which, honestly, seems pretty bad compared to gunline-DA with Azrael, so I don't know why you'd do that.
I'm guessing the standard "takin my BA to a tournament" type list is going to involve Death Company, Lemartes, a libbydread, and a fun-sized 400pt IG battalion to bring 3 more CPs to the table for the Death Company to snack on.
Will it work? Ehhhh, maybe. Recent tournament I went to basically everything was coming up Genestealers and Eldar, not a screened gunline in sight, and DC do have the option to forgo deep strike in favor of the 1cp "sprint up the board" stratagem - that might actually be half decent in the matchup against the dark reaper forwarned boogeyman list. Similar to how Genestealers are good against that list - you take the Swarmlord and a Trygon and depending whether the opponent has forewarned you either use Swarmy to get the stealers up the board or if they don't you bring them in with the Trygon.
I don't know. Deep strike him in with terminators and that alone saves you 2 CP. And he is permanent. And a crazy beat stick. I like him. Maybe I'm sentimental. He also can save your plasma dudes vs -1 to hit.
the_scotsman wrote: Most competitive lists just see Dante as "dude with the chapter master buff that you can have keep up with your fast stuff." It's why you pretty frequently see the old standard SM tourney lists run as "Blood Angels" (using only Dante as the sole BA specific unit then just assbacks and stormravens). Guilliman's to wound buff wasn't worth his inability to keep up with the stormravens to them.
If you are taking Dante, you're running gunline-angels, IMO. Which, honestly, seems pretty bad compared to gunline-DA with Azrael, so I don't know why you'd do that.
I'm guessing the standard "takin my BA to a tournament" type list is going to involve Death Company, Lemartes, a libbydread, and a fun-sized 400pt IG battalion to bring 3 more CPs to the table for the Death Company to snack on.
Will it work? Ehhhh, maybe. Recent tournament I went to basically everything was coming up Genestealers and Eldar, not a screened gunline in sight, and DC do have the option to forgo deep strike in favor of the 1cp "sprint up the board" stratagem - that might actually be half decent in the matchup against the dark reaper forwarned boogeyman list. Similar to how Genestealers are good against that list - you take the Swarmlord and a Trygon and depending whether the opponent has forewarned you either use Swarmy to get the stealers up the board or if they don't you bring them in with the Trygon.
I don't know. Deep strike him in with terminators and that alone saves you 2 CP. And he is permanent. And a crazy beat stick. I like him. Maybe I'm sentimental. He also can save your plasma dudes vs -1 to hit.
Yeah, he's definitely useful if you're taking a bunch of shooty elements, but if you're all assault, Chaplains/Lemartes give the same buff for half the price. Dante's certainly not terrible (we know he's at least good enough to warrant a spot in a few top table tournament lists at least) but he becomes progressively less useful the more you lean yourself towards the classic Blood Angel playstyle of heavy assault+flame weapons.
But yeah, pair him with Hellblasters, Intercessors, Flyers, Predators, Devastators, what have you and he's definitely a solid choice. Provides your standard Chapter Master mix of value shooting buff and counter-assault goodness in a package that has double the move value of most other chapter master equivalents. Plus with the "pick him up and drop him 9" away" stratagem, in a pinch he really can be wherever you need him.
On the subject of Intercessors and new BAngels, are you feeling like the Tallboyz may be the new go-to troop now that they're 18ppm? My thoughts are between them and knifescouts, given that neither require transport to be effective, but the intercessors would seem to provide a utility that your typical BA assault list isn't going to have - backfield objective holding and a bit of ranged anti-chaff fire.
Yea, but I would rather lose a 13 point per model Marine vs an 18 point per model Marine to the Plasma spam that seems to dominate my local play group.
Tyranids, Guard, Orks, Death Guard and Eldar care not for Scouts. They would die along with the Intercessors. And now your essentially paying 29 points for an Intercessor if they need Scouts in front of them to survive. I would rather take budget Plasma Tac Squads in Rhinos. The Rhinos themselves are a fast credible threat to charge units with, block line of sight to your Tac Squads while they Plasma something to death, and provide decent fire support with 2 Storm Bolters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If Intercessor Marines had a cheap transport to go with them I would consider using them. But right now they are just asking to be shot. They are also just so slow now.
The new Strategem that allows us to rocket a vehicle forwards will be great for sending a 5 man Tac Squad in Rhino off to claim an objective, or push a weak part of the enemy's army.
The only Primaris I will honestly consider (still) is Hellblasters in place of Devastator Squads. All of our other options fill the roles we need them for in our army better,
Assault units? Vanguard Vets, Death Company and Sanguinary Guard... what Primaris option comes close to these with the same utility and speed and reliability the new Strategems give them when getting into close combat?
Troops. Sure Intercessors can work, they get decent range and have AP -1 on their guns, but you lose far more per model against the plethora of 2 damage weapons in the current state of the game. Once your vehicles die within the first 1-2 turns, it becomes far less beneficial to pop a 1 wound Tac Marine with a Lascannon than an Intercessor.
The Striking Scorpion review while lackluster has a page by page view of all the important bits. I just took a couple screen shots for now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have been thinking about how to equip a cheap buff aura Captain, and Storm Bolter/Chainsword actually seems like it might be useful for him. Puts out a decent amount of shots to plug away at hordes, and a Chainsword with the +D3 attacks Strategem along with The Red Thirst seems to be a pretty decent last ditch resort for 76 points. I have been running mine with a Power Sword since 8th began, but if he is really ever in melee he is dead, and if I am going to be using a 1 Damage weapon, I would rather just get it for free anyways.
I really don't see my Captains being my melee threat/assassin anymore, Librians of all shapes and sizes seem to be the best option for that unless your running a Special Character.
Tyranids, Guard, Orks, Death Guard and Eldar care not for Scouts. They would die along with the Intercessors. And now your essentially paying 29 points for an Intercessor if they need Scouts in front of them to survive. I would rather take budget Plasma Tac Squads in Rhinos. The Rhinos themselves are a fast credible threat to charge units with, block line of sight to your Tac Squads while they Plasma something to death, and provide decent fire support with 2 Storm Bolters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If Intercessor Marines had a cheap transport to go with them I would consider using them. But right now they are just asking to be shot. They are also just so slow now.
The new Strategem that allows us to rocket a vehicle forwards will be great for sending a 5 man Tac Squad in Rhino off to claim an objective, or push a weak part of the enemy's army.
The only Primaris I will honestly consider (still) is Hellblasters in place of Devastator Squads. All of our other options fill the roles we need them for in our army better,
Assault units? Vanguard Vets, Death Company and Sanguinary Guard... what Primaris option comes close to these with the same utility and speed and reliability the new Strategems give them when getting into close combat?
Troops. Sure Intercessors can work, they get decent range and have AP -1 on their guns, but you lose far more per model against the plethora of 2 damage weapons in the current state of the game. Once your vehicles die within the first 1-2 turns, it becomes far less beneficial to pop a 1 wound Tac Marine with a Lascannon than an Intercessor.
I see your point but 3 intercessors squads are cheaper than 3 tactical squads in rhinos. Moreover, yes plasma is surely ruining your plan when fielding intercessors btu the enemy is forced to overcharge and he's probably doing this only if a captain is nearby. He's actually investing some points to kill a single 5 man squad. Moreover, intercessors can screen better your heavy guns just behind, either hellblasters or devastator squads. Additionally, if the enemy is trying to break through you can use that 1 CP to get your death company /sanguinary guard all the way back to the field.
For sure I won't use scouts again. They are great for deep strike denial but they always give a free first blood away and honestly you don't pull out evnough 6's to justify their use (according to me).
About the DCHQ thingie, can we give it to a capt in termie armour? 2+/4++/5+++ sounds resilient to me or throw a storm shield in there for 3++... I've had capt Karlaen model lying around in the bitz box since shield of Baal. Jump pack is definately more competive because of the mobility, but idea of DC in s termie outfit... Just spitting my balls here too..
I'm actually thinking some infantry gunline builds with captain/LT/ancient with the relic FNP banner and some primaris could be interesting, at least as the part of the list that isn't going deep strike charging.
Dunno if this will be efficient but have a look at this:
Librarian with jump pack that prevents overwatch. Drop him 9" from enemy line and use wings of sanguinius to move 12" and have a guaranteed charge. Drop near him your warlord who happens to be a dc captain with the baal thunderhammer relic (no penalty to hit), a storm shield and the warlord trait that let you have FnP 5+ rerolling 1s. You multicharge a veihcle and that annoying bubble wrap troop with your librarian, then you go in with your warlord. Should be fun.
I see your point but 3 intercessors squads are cheaper than 3 tactical squads in rhinos. Moreover, yes plasma is surely ruining your plan when fielding intercessors btu the enemy is forced to overcharge and he's probably doing this only if a captain is nearby. He's actually investing some points to kill a single 5 man squad. Moreover, intercessors can screen better your heavy guns just behind, either hellblasters or devastator squads. Additionally, if the enemy is trying to break through you can use that 1 CP to get your death company /sanguinary guard all the way back to the field.
For sure I won't use scouts again. They are great for deep strike denial but they always give a free first blood away and honestly you don't pull out evnough 6's to justify their use (according to me).
My two cents
Yeah, I just like that my Rhinos can act as mobile LOS blockers and charge fodder. My meta has Death Guard lists running TONS of 5 man Plasma Squads with rerolls, an Eldar army that has multi damage weapons up the wazoo and a Plasma/Artillery spam Guard army. I just have a hard time finding any value in a unit that can be annihilated so easy without having some form of transport that can keep them alive... Plus it doesn't help that I have a bias against all things Primaris.
Hope DC still have access to boltgun & chainsword combo, because I changed like 15 bolt pistols into boltguns after 8th ed.
Now I'm looking at my plasma vets with jump pack:
2x with plasmagun and storm shield
1x with combi-plasma and other hand pointing forward.
2x plasmaguns with magnetized backs
1x combi-plasma with magnetized back
Only if drop pods had some validness...
Any idea what I could do with those storm shield and plasmaguns? One pointing the hand could be a lieutenant, but to accompany him with what??
You guys are saying that it's ok to use index version of the sanguinary priest to get a jump pack. Do you think that your local tournament organizers would let you bring index versions of company veterans (with jump packs in this case)?
I'm curious - ignoring the fact that you could use the index to get the company vets and what have you with jump packs, what's the benefit of using those vs for instance Sanguinary Guard? I was just looking at the numbers for 10 Sanguinary Guard if you give them an Ancient with the Banner of Sacrifice and declare him the warlord, and it's pretty impressive. They carve through 9 terminators, deal 17 wounds on average to a standard T7/3+ medium tank/monster, and 11 wounds on average to a T8/2+ heavy tank/monster, just equipped with Swords and nothing else. with the relic banner they have a 63% chance of surviving a wound from an overcharged plasma gun, and it takes 26.5 rapid firing FRFSRF lasguns to take one down if your opponent is inclined to go the volume of fire route.
Martel732 wrote: I'm steering away from index-only stuff, as I assume it will be gone in 9th.
Even no jump packs with sanguinary priest? For how long they have had access to them?
Other thing.. what's the deal with the DC chaplain model, chaplain with visions to do it DC or does the codex have an own entry for DC chap? It's so great model.. I've been proxying it as Lemartes though.
the_scotsman wrote: I'm curious - ignoring the fact that you could use the index to get the company vets and what have you with jump packs, what's the benefit of using those vs for instance Sanguinary Guard? I was just looking at the numbers for 10 Sanguinary Guard if you give them an Ancient with the Banner of Sacrifice and declare him the warlord, and it's pretty impressive. They carve through 9 terminators, deal 17 wounds on average to a standard T7/3+ medium tank/monster, and 11 wounds on average to a T8/2+ heavy tank/monster, just equipped with Swords and nothing else. with the relic banner they have a 63% chance of surviving a wound from an overcharged plasma gun, and it takes 26.5 rapid firing FRFSRF lasguns to take one down if your opponent is inclined to go the volume of fire route.
In the index the Ancients are Elites not HQ so they couldn't be your warlord, which means you have to put even more eggs into that, already expensive basket. I was kind of thinking the sanguinor with a smaller squad of SG would be sufficient, plus of course other threats as well, maybe either 1 big or 2 smaller DC squads with Lemartes nearby and a Libby Dread. Back all that up with either AC/LC preds, tri-las preds or a couple flyers, probably storm talons.
If your going heavy JP list, i think the key is being able to get enough charges off in your alpha strike that if they fall back they are down too much fire power to hurt your advance enough, or just be able to wipe out a couple squads.
the_scotsman wrote: I'm curious - ignoring the fact that you could use the index to get the company vets and what have you with jump packs, what's the benefit of using those vs for instance Sanguinary Guard? I was just looking at the numbers for 10 Sanguinary Guard if you give them an Ancient with the Banner of Sacrifice and declare him the warlord, and it's pretty impressive. They carve through 9 terminators, deal 17 wounds on average to a standard T7/3+ medium tank/monster, and 11 wounds on average to a T8/2+ heavy tank/monster, just equipped with Swords and nothing else. with the relic banner they have a 63% chance of surviving a wound from an overcharged plasma gun, and it takes 26.5 rapid firing FRFSRF lasguns to take one down if your opponent is inclined to go the volume of fire route.
In the index the Ancients are Elites not HQ so they couldn't be your warlord, which means you have to put even more eggs into that, already expensive basket. I was kind of thinking the sanguinor with a smaller squad of SG would be sufficient, plus of course other threats as well, maybe either 1 big or 2 smaller DC squads with Lemartes nearby and a Libby Dread. Back all that up with either AC/LC preds, tri-las preds or a couple flyers, probably storm talons.
If your going heavy JP list, i think the key is being able to get enough charges off in your alpha strike that if they fall back they are down too much fire power to hurt your advance enough, or just be able to wipe out a couple squads.
Your warlord can be any model. If they are a character, they gain a warlord trait. Is there some other section in the rules that requires them to be an HQ?
Xirax wrote:Hope DC still have access to boltgun & chainsword combo, because I changed like 15 bolt pistols into boltguns after 8th ed.
Yes, they still have that. You already have 9th ed. ?
Xirax wrote:
You guys are saying that it's ok to use index version of the sanguinary priest to get a jump pack. Do you think that your local tournament organizers would let you bring index versions of company veterans (with jump packs in this case)?
Yes, GW allows the use of the index. But what is allowed at a local tournament, and whats not, is completely up to the local tournament organizers.
Your warlord can be any model. If they are a character, they gain a warlord trait. Is there some other section in the rules that requires them to be an HQ?
Kitted the way it is, is what 99 points. You could make it DC and give 5+ fnp or make the crozius 3 damage.. for it's point not bad.
But, earlier I was wondering what would a captain that has fallen into the black rage look like model wise. I started thinking that should I ever counter people who wouldn't let me use the DC chap model as one. Give him relic/artisan of war special thunder hammer and why not, the special hammer couldn't look like that.. Am I being too optimistic?
Stupid index begone thing, what the heck I'm supposed to do with those models with jump packs and storm shields, they have no helmets and have plasma guns in the other hand, but it can be easily snapped off. Tons of warm thoughts to a person who has a good suggestion. I'm pretty sure that other BA players besides me modeled some plasma gun, SS jump packers when we saw the company vets dataslates and now it's gone.
Martel732 wrote: I'm steering away from index-only stuff, as I assume it will be gone in 9th.
Same...I'm a shark. No neck...only moving forward.
Agreed. I popped the Jump Pack off my Priest last night and gave him his old backpack. Thankfully there wasn't any paint on him. I am avoiding Index options with this army since my Guard have a good chunk lf points from it... Still annoyed my 20 Rough Riders are likely to disappear at some point. Those cost a fortune to collect the Tallarn sculpts all new in blister/box.
Kitted the way it is, is what 99 points. You could make it DC and give 5+ fnp or make the crozius 3 damage.. for it's point not bad.
But, earlier I was wondering what would a captain that has fallen into the black rage look like model wise. I started thinking that should I ever counter people who wouldn't let me use the DC chap model as one. Give him relic/artisan of war special thunder hammer and why not, the special hammer couldn't look like that.. Am I being too optimistic?
Stupid index begone thing, what the heck I'm supposed to do with those models with jump packs and storm shields, they have no helmets and have plasma guns in the other hand, but it can be easily snapped off. Tons of warm thoughts to a person who has a good suggestion. I'm pretty sure that other BA players besides me modeled some plasma gun, SS jump packers when we saw the company vets dataslates and now it's gone.
I was thinking of using raphen from raphens death company as the cpt
Can't company veterans take plasma gun stormshields and jump packs and if it's not in the codex you can use the index
And 
