Melissia wrote: Oddly enough, the primary anti-tank would probably be thunder hammers. Which I guess isn't ideal. I'll think on it.
I can tell you from playing some 8th games, TH are not going to cut it for anti-vehicle. You need a decent amount of long range high str, good AP weaponry or shorter range on fast units. This will be compounded immensely if they bring a super heavy or a Knight etc etc. Personally I wish super heavies weren't even allowed in 40K but whatever.
Another option to consider that is much cheaper, but much more fragile, would be a couple of Land Speeders deep striking in with a pair of multimeltas, one mounted underneath and one mounted to the gunner's seat. Pretty brutal dropping 4x Multimeltas on a target inside of 12". Secondly you could run a Multimelta and a Cyclone Missile Launcher on the speeders for more potential hits and wounds at the cost of AP (-2 on the missiles vs.-4 on the multimeltas).
Where do you see Land Speeders are able to DS? Also, those configurations are still pretty expensive for as fragile as LS's are now. Double MM being 134 points and MM+Typhoon missiles being 157. They have no mitigation at all, just T5 and 6W which doesn't take much to mulch. If I was going to spend 314 points to bring 2 LS's, i'd just find the extra 86 or 88 points and bring either 2 Tri-las or Pred AC/Las preds.
I do think 2 Stormraven's or LR's could outfitted with Anti-tank stuff would work fine if you are planning on using them for delivery systems, but they are both extremely expensive.
I'm also not nearly as sold on DC dreads or Furiosos as you guys are. They are expensive, can't use regular DPs anymore, which even if they could would be almost 300 points for 1 DC dread. They still only have 4 attacks, so at max kill 4 models a turn, and thats if you roll perfect and the opponent misses every save, so 2 or 3 is more likely a turn. Blood Talons are so utterly worthless and over shadowed now by Blood fists it's ridiculous. Blood Talons used to be the infantry killing option, and now they don't even have the properties of LCs, which is what they were supposed to be, hugh LCs. I think i'd just rather have another VV squad that can DS if need be and be outfitted to whatever I want.
bobafett012 wrote: Double MM being 134 points and MM+Typhoon missiles being 157. They have no mitigation at all, just T5 and 6W which doesn't take much to mulch. If I was going to spend 314 points to bring 2 LS's...
Melissia wrote: Oddly enough, the primary anti-tank would probably be thunder hammers. Which I guess isn't ideal. I'll think on it.
I can tell you from playing some 8th games, TH are not going to cut it for anti-vehicle. You need a decent amount of long range high str, good AP weaponry or shorter range on fast units. This will be compounded immensely if they bring a super heavy or a Knight etc etc. Personally I wish super heavies weren't even allowed in 40K but whatever.
Agreed, certain weapons can work but they better be for finishing off said big model. I don't mind knights or other large models provided they aren't spammed constantly. Three or more Knights in a single list is a touch excessive in my opinion. But, to each their own.
Another option to consider that is much cheaper, but much more fragile, would be a couple of Land Speeders deep striking in with a pair of multimeltas, one mounted underneath and one mounted to the gunner's seat. Pretty brutal dropping 4x Multimeltas on a target inside of 12". Secondly you could run a Multimelta and a Cyclone Missile Launcher on the speeders for more potential hits and wounds at the cost of AP (-2 on the missiles vs.-4 on the multimeltas).
Where do you see Land Speeders are able to DS? Also, those configurations are still pretty expensive for as fragile as LS's are now. Double MM being 134 points and MM+Typhoon missiles being 157. They have no mitigation at all, just T5 and 6W which doesn't take much to mulch. If I was going to spend 314 points to bring 2 LS's, i'd just find the extra 86 or 88 points and bring either 2 Tri-las or Pred AC/Las preds.
I do think 2 Stormraven's or LR's could outfitted with Anti-tank stuff would work fine if you are planning on using them for delivery systems, but they are both extremely expensive.
I'm also not nearly as sold on DC dreads or Furiosos as you guys are. They are expensive, can't use regular DPs anymore, which even if they could would be almost 300 points for 1 DC dread. They still only have 4 attacks, so at max kill 4 models a turn, and thats if you roll perfect and the opponent misses every save, so 2 or 3 is more likely a turn. Blood Talons are so utterly worthless and over shadowed now by Blood fists it's ridiculous. Blood Talons used to be the infantry killing option, and now they don't even have the properties of LCs, which is what they were supposed to be, hugh LCs. I think i'd just rather have another VV squad that can DS if need be and be outfitted to whatever I want.
I'll be honest, I haven't looked at the Land Speeder Entry but drew an assumption that they were still able to deep strike in like in prevous editions. If that's mistaken, then derp on my part I've always liked Land Speeders which have been notoriously fragile since forever. Yea they're easy to take out but they punch way above their weight class and that's why I like them. If you run them as anti-tank flankers, hiding them so your larger anti tank models can take the opening salvo, they can come in and cripple or finish off already damaged hard targets.
As for Dreads, I think I do also prefer the fists over the Claws more often than not. Better to-hit with the reroll at a flat 3 damage per hit is superior to the claws random D6 damage.
Though, there is one bonus point on the DC Dread. It benefits from the Black Rage, which is a Bonus 5th Attack on the Charge and a 6+ wound ignore on any lost wound. That's in addition to an 8" base move. Being delivered via Storm Raven makes this thing a pretty beastly prospect, as it deploys 3" from the SR, moves 8", and then charges 2D6 with 5x ST:12 attacks.
How do you all feel currently about running 2 to 3 Xiphon Interceptors? For 160 points they look really good on paper and are cheaper than a Predator. I feel like Xiphon's help us answer the current flyer meta we have going on and we still can stay in BA faction.
Sm Flyers gonna get a beating anyway, i would say wait and see. And prepare your death company squad with hammers and jet pack + lemartes for that insta gib on flyer.
Red Comet wrote: How do you all feel currently about running 2 to 3 Xiphon Interceptors? For 160 points they look really good on paper and are cheaper than a Predator. I feel like Xiphon's help us answer the current flyer meta we have going on and we still can stay in BA faction.
I am SERIOUSLY debating getting one of these to join my Storm Raven in the skies.
I absolutely love the way they look and they are quite effective at hunting armor. Price to purchase is steep, but one of them isn't terrible for the size of the model you get.
Red Comet wrote: How do you all feel currently about running 2 to 3 Xiphon Interceptors? For 160 points they look really good on paper and are cheaper than a Predator. I feel like Xiphon's help us answer the current flyer meta we have going on and we still can stay in BA faction.
I am SERIOUSLY debating getting one of these to join my Storm Raven in the skies.
I absolutely love the way they look and they are quite effective at hunting armor. Price to purchase is steep, but one of them isn't terrible for the size of the model you get.
Certainly something worth considering for sure.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
The problem is getting two twin las cannon razorbacks is still a much better option.
The problem is getting two twin las cannon razorbacks is still a much better option.
I'd debate that. the Xiphon is harder to hit, and has the extra unique missile launcher option on it as well. You can reserve it, so first turn it doesn't take shots if you wind up going second, and then fly on to drop 4x Lascannon and the Rotary Missile launcher at a target to do pretty withering damage.
That allows your Razorbacks to carry more anti-infantry/generalist weapons like a twin assault cannon (My preference), or twin heavy flamer.
Has anyone else tried out Bike Squads in this edition? I had a full 9 man bikesquad with 4+ inv save just did a pretty great job of tanking a mass of firepower and destroying units after unit against greyknights. My army was have jumpers half bikes.
Coyote81 wrote: Has anyone else tried out Bike Squads in this edition? I had a full 9 man bikesquad with 4+ inv save just did a pretty great job of tanking a mass of firepower and destroying units after unit against greyknights. My army was have jumpers half bikes.
I don't hae any bikes and at the moment I dont want to use them. In my opinion they are better suited if you play dark angels or white scars
bikers equipped with chain swords would have 2 attacks a piece and if you dropped in The Sanguinor, they would have 3 attacks, plus pretty good survivability with T5 and a couple wounds.
Or have a Libby on a bike rolling around with them casting shield and unleash rage on whatever units need it.
Might be a thought, my only concern would be the cost of the unit, bikers are a good chunk of points per unit.
brokbrok wrote:With the chapter tactics leak I'm legitimately scared we won't get a favorable assault tactic since it seems they were already handed out.
Also, is it a typo that Lemartes doesn't provide the standard chaplain buff for regular BA units?
Correct, Lemartes only helps Death Company. I'm optimistic that we will get a good melee oriented chapter trait, hopefully something charge or fighting related.
Frozocrone wrote:How do people feel about Relic Blades?
Kind of tempted to stick one on a Jump Pack Captain and see what happens.
I run one on my Captain and it works amazingly well so far. Far better than a standard power swords and they work a lot better than they did in 7th Edition too.
If my captain didn't come with a massive thunder hammer in his right hand already-- which was tied to his cape-- I'd have a relic blade. still I'm happy with TH/SB.
Spoiler:
He's assembled, now to clean him up and move on to the next termies.
brokbrok wrote: With the chapter tactics leak I'm legitimately scared we won't get a favorable assault tactic since it seems they were already handed out.
As much as I like GW's direction, I'm confident that the BA chactic will suck. They'll probably just give them furious charge again and call it a day, which would be very weak in the current rules. Even a passive always-on +1 strength army wide would struggle to compare to some of the other leaked codex chactics.
With the 6e lack of a 'dex, the 7e crapdex, shield of baal, and angel's blade, you can tell that they just don't have a rules writer who enjoys the BA. All of those rules were very phoned in, as if they had a group straw-draw, and whoever drew the short one had to spend their afternoon that day writing BA rules instead of what they were actually interested in. Say what you want about Ward, but you could tell he actually enjoyed the chapter and representing it on the table. I just don't think GW has gotten anyone else who gives two shakes about the BA, so we're probably going to get another short straw one-afternoon effort.
Kind of tempted to stick one on a Jump Pack Captain and see what happens.
Pretty good. Works pretty much like a budget Dante but considering Dante is pretty pricey, I would say it is worth a go.
Although on a Captain, I would be tempted by the Thunder Hammer. 5 points cheaper, +2S, 3 Damage rather than D3. The -1 to Hit penalty is mitigated by the Captain's WS2+ and built-in rerolls of 1.
Against multi-wound models, the advantage of the Thunderhammer is clear. Even against MEQs, the TH is actually about equal as it hits on a 3+ and wounds on a 2+ whereas the relic blade hits on a 2+ but wounds on a 3+.
I'm actually hoping we do get the old Furious Charge and Angels Blade bonuses for our CT. +1S on charge is baller, wounding on 3+ against T4 is great, and not game breaking. Plus, at half strength, if units became fearless (or ignored morale per the new jargon) there'd be no threat of attrition, and everything would fight just that much harder with rerolls to hit, even once our characters start being picked off. Not game greaking, just neat little buffs I'm starting to miss from 7th. Just my two cents
We will not be getting +1 str as our chapter tactic. The Sanguinary Priest already gives that to us and I doubt GW wants us to have str 6 models on the charge.
I imagine it will be related to deep striking, or something to represent our ariel superiority.
I wouldnt mind if BA could place a dreadnought in a drop pod. Drop pods are kinda obsolete now, with VV or CV with JP there is not much need for a drop pod. Deepstriking 9"-W3 would be nice too.
This is true. Myself and the other BA player at my flgs are completely sans Drop Pods now, it would be nice to have something cheaper than a Stormraven to get them over the table.
On that note, has anybody had any luck or got any tips for running Dreads across a table? I just bought a Librarian, Furioso and Death Company Dreads, and I'd like to run all three, but don't want to invest in three Stormravens for them. Any unit combos that will get them where they need to go?
Crimson Devil wrote: We will not be getting +1 str as our chapter tactic. The Sanguinary Priest already gives that to us and I doubt GW wants us to have str 6 models on the charge.
I imagine it will be related to deep striking, or something to represent our ariel superiority.
Characters most likely won't stay the same from the index to codex changeover. We already have seen this from the standard marine leaks.
We're getting furious charge. Yes it will suck compared to almost every other faction tactic out there. No GW won't realize that. This will absolutely become true unless a dedicated BA rules writer who actually shows interest in the army shows up.
diepotato47 wrote:On that note, has anybody had any luck or got any tips for running Dreads across a table? I just bought a Librarian, Furioso and Death Company Dreads, and I'd like to run all three, but don't want to invest in three Stormravens for them. Any unit combos that will get them where they need to go?
My Furioso walks most games. Shield of Sanguinius and good terrain works well for me.
niv-mizzet wrote:
Crimson Devil wrote: We will not be getting +1 str as our chapter tactic. The Sanguinary Priest already gives that to us and I doubt GW wants us to have str 6 models on the charge.
I imagine it will be related to deep striking, or something to represent our ariel superiority.
Characters most likely won't stay the same from the index to codex changeover. We already have seen this from the standard marine leaks.
We're getting furious charge. Yes it will suck compared to almost every other faction tactic out there. No GW won't realize that. This will absolutely become true unless a dedicated BA rules writer who actually shows interest in the army shows up.
On that note, has anybody had any luck or got any tips for running Dreads across a table? I just bought a Librarian, Furioso and Death Company Dreads, and I'd like to run all three, but don't want to invest in three Stormravens for them. Any unit combos that will get them where they need to go?
Librarian Dreadnought is easy. He is a Character and so cannot be targetted unless he is the nearest model. Just advance him a bit behind your other units while he casts psychic buffs on them. Once he gets up close, he can charge into combat and start mincing things.
DC Dread really needs to go in a Storm Raven. Furioso is odd man out, I can't really figure out a use for him now.
I was thinking the same thing. We haven't seen any of the characters at all. They only have given us chapter traits, and hints at what the relic and warlord trait might be, neither of which has anything to do with the characters abilities, as they are all completely separate things.
I agree with you and hope that we get something that benefits CC and Jump Packers. Might get a little of both if we get a decent of angels and red thirst rules back, but we'll see. I will not be playing Razor spam as I find it not fun to play with so even though assault marines aren't always the most competitive, it's what I like to play.
Which edition's furious charge are we talking about?
Cause +1s +1a on the charge, IIRC, was a thing in past editions. And THAT as a global buff to all infantry, characters, and dreads would be a niceCT. Would make even tactical marine charges something to fear.
I was thinking the same thing. We haven't seen any of the characters at all. They only have given us chapter traits, and hints at what the relic and warlord trait might be, neither of which has anything to do with the characters abilities, as they are all completely separate things.
I agree with you and hope that we get something that benefits CC and Jump Packers. Might get a little of both if we get a decent of angels and red thirst rules back, but we'll see. I will not be playing Razor spam as I find it not fun to play with so even though assault marines aren't always the most competitive, it's what I like to play.
Agreed with that Bobafett, I don't prefer razor spam either and love jump packs (though not exclusively, I like my tactical squads too). I'm currently trying to decide if I want to build the 5 jump pack models I have into a 5 man assault squad or flesh out my Company Veterans squad from 3 models to 5 models and then use the remaining 3 models for more Death Company. We shall see.
This is for fun, but if I'm gonna do a tournament, I'm switching out the Stormtalon for Astorath, giving me two detachments:
Vanguard - Lamartes, 2 Death Company squads, DC dread, and the Stormraven
Battalion - Librarian and Astorath, two tactical squads, one scout squad, and the rest of the army.
The idea is to have both tactical and scout squads supported on the board by the Predator with Astorath and 5 man DC and DC dread in the Stormraven, and the rest of the army deep strike in.
However, that leaves me with 59 extra points. Any ideas to fill that gap?
Right now, Stormtalons can't be <Blood Angels>, so you may want to wait until the codex comes out before you buy one. Hopefully it'll let us have one with the <Blood Angels> chapter tag.
Rumors currently have it that you don't get chapter tactics unless your entire detachment has the same <Chapter> tag, so sadly this is a thing you have to consider.
Melissia wrote: Right now, Stormtalons can't be <Blood Angels>, so you may want to wait until the codex comes out before you buy one. Hopefully it'll let us have one with the <Blood Angels> chapter tag.
Rumors currently have it that you don't get chapter tactics unless your entire detachment has the same <Chapter> tag, so sadly this is a thing you have to consider.
Read my comments after the list, Stormtalon is for fun, replacing with Astorath if/when it matters.
Sadly, I already have a Stormtalon built and painted BA theme.
I get the feeling that the proliferation of jump packs in our list has predicated a lack of flyers, with the exception of the Storm Raven obviously.
The thing that miffed me, speaking of things omitted, was the lack of Cataphracti Terminator armor of any kind in the Blood Angels list. I have five of them from my Betrayal at Calth box that I can't really use unless I field them as regular terminators. Which I could do, but would rather not as it's not technically WYSIWYG, which I strive to have in my army.
Still, I'm curious to see what we get in our own codex, hopefully some good surprises, at least.
I don't have faith in GW rule writers, as it seems none loves the men in red. They'll probably just give us the red thirst and that's it. We won't get any useful melee oriented trait because GW hates us.
I hope they lower the cost of our infernopistol and flamepistol. They are expensive as hell. Look at the eldar fusion pistol. Same thing, cheaper and can be spammed by harlequins that all can fall back and shoot as their armyrule. And I also hope they don't forget their own words on chapter tactics, so it will benefit the whole army and not only special builds. Yeah and please give us access to the new terminator variants. We are a 1st founding chapter. Maybe we wasted them all boarding space hulks? The addition of stormtalons would be also welcomed. Why does't GW want to get money from us buying things they already sell?
Yes. Hand flamer is way overpriced. Sisters are complaining about this too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I noticed to my dismay that the Terminator Ancient is basically just a chaplain who can take something other than the Crozius Arcanum, but lacks a 4+ save.
Sad. But I guess it makes him a bit more of a beatstick and leaves the HQ slot open for someone else or something. But Chaplain being an HQ opens up space for detachments...
Question about fielding Astorath and Lemartes together:
So let's say I have both characters within 6" of a Death Company squad that's attacking. Astorath has Litanies of Hate that lets you reroll failed hit rolls for nearby Blood Angels, and Lemartes had Fury Unbound that also rerolls failed hit rolls for Death Company.
Do they stack, allowing me two opportunities to reroll a failed hit for my Death Company?
You can't reroll a reroll, it's in one of the margins in the core rules/battle primer.
Page 4, top left side of the page in the margin:
"Re-rolls
Some rules allow you to
re-roll a dice roll, which
means you get to roll
some or all of the dice
again. You can never
re-roll a dice more than
once, and re-rolls happen
before modifiers (if any)
are applied."
In other words, I'd let Astorath effect one one group of assaulters with his Litanies, and let Lemartes boost your Death Company.
Replace Astorath or Lemartes with Brother Corbulo. Replace 10 DC with 10 CV, with two Chainswords, and you get 41 attacks, at S5. The seven 6s you roll, you get seven additional attacks, rerolling failed attacks. BC can revive dead models, or heal characters.
p5freak wrote: Replace Astorath or Lemartes with Brother Corbulo. Replace 10 DC with 10 CV, with two Chainswords, and you get 41 attacks, at S5. The seven 6s you roll, you get seven additional attacks, rerolling failed attacks. BC can revive dead models, or heal characters.
Problem there though is that Corbs has to foot slog or ride in a transport? Surely a normal jump pack priest would be better? You lose out on a few attacks but it would end up cheaper/more flexible? Also wouldnt one squad of 10 vanguard vets be better than 2, 5 man company vets in this case?
I wonder if I can model a chaplain helmet and crozium-carrying hand on the BA Ancient model. I get an extra CP if I swap my Termie Ancient for a Termie Chaplain and split my terminators off from my main force-- I don't really like the idea but it looks like CP are going to be super-important.
Red__Thirst wrote: You can't reroll a reroll, it's in one of the margins in the core rules/battle primer.
Page 4, top left side of the page in the margin:
"Re-rolls
Some rules allow you to
re-roll a dice roll, which
means you get to roll
some or all of the dice
again. You can never
re-roll a dice more than
once, and re-rolls happen
before modifiers (if any)
are applied."
In other words, I'd let Astorath effect one one group of assaulters with his Litanies, and let Lemartes boost your Death Company.
p5freak wrote: Replace Astorath or Lemartes with Brother Corbulo. Replace 10 DC with 10 CV, with two Chainswords, and you get 41 attacks, at S5. The seven 6s you roll, you get seven additional attacks, rerolling failed attacks. BC can revive dead models, or heal characters.
Problem there though is that Corbs has to foot slog or ride in a transport? Surely a normal jump pack priest would be better? You lose out on a few attacks but it would end up cheaper/more flexible? Also wouldnt one squad of 10 vanguard vets be better than 2, 5 man company vets in this case?
Yes, Bro Corb would need to walk, or be in a transport. If you want to go all JP, and deepstrike, a normal priest would be better.
I am working on building the full 3rd Company, and my back story for it is that the Captain Machiavi of the 3rd gave up all rights to any of the Primaris reinforcements to be alloted a larger tithe of Gene-Seed and recruits from their successor Chapters and the other Companies. Along with a larger allotment of basic equipment, which is why my Company will not really have any of the unique Blood Angels equipment and units.
I imagine that even though the Blood Angels were grateful to receive reinforcements, unless Rowboat dropped off a massive amount of equipment and ammo to produce all of the new weapons, armor and supplies the Primaris Marines use, it will be a huge undertaking to integrate them into Chapter. The Chapter has been producing the same weapons with very little change for literally 10,000 years, having to learn how all the Primaris equipment operates, how to make it, understand the specs of the weapons and build the machines to make it all won't be a quick task. Along with potentially retraining all the Primaris Marines to better fit into the culture and mentality of the current Blood Angels Chapter.
Which is why I think the higher-ups of the Chapter like Dante would see it smart to get about half the Companies to full strength with regular Space Marines while they undertake the integration and training of brand new troops, and train the current troops to work with the capabilities of the new Primaris Marines as well.
Have to finish building the second Rhino, and have a few more bits to get onto the models (pin the Storm Bolter on the Captain, modify where the backpack goes onto for the current style, finish getting the backpacks in the Missile Devastators, and finish cleaning the mould lines off of the Jump Packs for the Assault Marines... plus two are missing arms), and I currently don't have the standard bits for the Company Ancient (will be ordering them online on the 1st).
Hoping to get all the weapon barrels drilled out this following week and start painting!
NH Gunsmith wrote: Well, here is the 1,500 point list I will be running for my first game of 8th Edition Saturday, don't know what I will be playing yet.
I am working on building the full 3rd Company, and my back story for it is that the Captain Machiavi of the 3rd gave up all rights to any of the Primaris reinforcements to be alloted a larger tithe of Gene-Seed and recruits from their successor Chapters and the other Companies. Along with a larger allotment of basic equipment, which is why my Company will not really have any of the unique Blood Angels equipment and units.
I imagine that even though the Blood Angels were grateful to receive reinforcements, unless Rowboat dropped off a massive amount of equipment and ammo to produce all of the new weapons, armor and supplies the Primaris Marines use, it will be a huge undertaking to integrate them into Chapter. The Chapter has been producing the same weapons with very little change for literally 10,000 years, having to learn how all the Primaris equipment operates, how to make it, understand the specs of the weapons and build the machines to make it all won't be a quick task. Along with potentially retraining all the Primaris Marines to better fit into the culture and mentality of the current Blood Angels Chapter.
Which is why I think the higher-ups of the Chapter like Dante would see it smart to get about half the Companies to full strength with regular Space Marines while they undertake the integration and training of brand new troops, and train the current troops to work with the capabilities of the new Primaris Marines as well.
Have to finish building the second Rhino, and have a few more bits to get onto the models (pin the Storm Bolter on the Captain, modify where the backpack goes onto for the current style, finish getting the backpacks in the Missile Devastators, and finish cleaning the mould lines off of the Jump Packs for the Assault Marines... plus two are missing arms), and I currently don't have the standard bits for the Company Ancient (will be ordering them online on the 1st).
Hoping to get all the weapon barrels drilled out this following week and start painting!
All that metal brings a smile to my face, looking good so far, looking forward to the paint job. Going blood angels, or a successor chapter?
All that metal brings a smile to my face, looking good so far, looking forward to the paint job. Going blood angels, or a successor chapter?
I plan to do Blood Angels, I have finished collecting enough of those old buggers to do the entire 3rd Company, just short a few bits here and there. I had a tiny Blood Angels force in 3rd edition I never finished (like many of my armies), and always wanted to own a complete Battle Company. Starting collecting all this about 3-4 months ago, I can't believe how much the price of bits has gone up online! Dang scalpers on eBay for plastic! But, it's been real fun building both this army and my other one as a blast from the past, and both armies I wanted as a kid be could never afford. That's one of the reasons I have been so sparing with actual Blood Angels bits, I more or less wanted the army to look like it came right out of 3rd edition (the first edition I ever played), minus the fact that all those 25mm bases are all round lipped bases, along with the bases for the Dreadnoughts. I love round lipped bases if I am doing my own basing and not buying specialty ones, plus since they are solid plastic (minus the slots on the 25mm ones) they add a decent amount of weight to the bottom to help them keep from tipping over.
Can't wait to see how they do Saturday! Most guys in the area run more elite style, low model count lists besides the Genestealer Cult player. I don't think anybody is expecting a 50+ model count Marine army that is still a surprisingly few amount of deployment drops.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I found it shocking just how good those old models can look with current bits. Besides a few strange fitment issues with the heavy weapons so far, it has all gone on surprisingly easy!
NH Gunsmith wrote: Well, here is the 1,500 point list I will be running for my first game of 8th Edition Saturday, don't know what I will be playing yet.
I am working on building the full 3rd Company, and my back story for it is that the Captain Machiavi of the 3rd gave up all rights to any of the Primaris reinforcements to be alloted a larger tithe of Gene-Seed and recruits from their successor Chapters and the other Companies. Along with a larger allotment of basic equipment, which is why my Company will not really have any of the unique Blood Angels equipment and units.
You're really close to being able to run a Vanguard Detachment and a Battalion Detachment for a total of 7 command points, you might want to consider making room for one more HQ unit.
You're really close to being able to run a Vanguard Detachment and a Battalion Detachment for a total of 7 command points, you might want to consider making room for one more HQ unit.
Huh, I didn't even think of that! I will probably keep it as is for now. I will tweak my 2,000 point list and post it up. Thanks for three heads up though!
I am really liking the idea of 5 man Vanguard vets with jump packs coming down with two Plasma pistols a piece for 160, ten shots with a 24" threat range.
Nice looking force Gunsmith! Be sure to start up a painting blog in the P&M Blogs forum so we can follow along!
I'm going to be trying to start working on some Primaris marines in the near future I suspect. I need the extra boots on the ground and I figure they'll make a fun diversion from painting Jump Pack models/Death Company. I'll also be putting a Death Co. Dread into the queue soon as well once the Storm Raven is finished up. Magna Grapple and paired Fists with a Heavy Flamer and Meltagun. Should be fun for sure.
fatbudda319 wrote: So, has anyone thought much about including the new primaris marines in their blood angels army? The new dread looks awfully pretty in red..
Tempted.
Will have to envision Flesh Tearer colours.
I may end up just painting my army red...because I know that Sanguinius will be released as soon as I paint them in Flesh Tearer colours
fatbudda319 wrote: So, has anyone thought much about including the new primaris marines in their blood angels army? The new dread looks awfully pretty in red..
Tac squads have always been a bit lacklustre in a BA army so I am planning to experiment with a couple of 5-man intercessor squads as backfield objective campers. Twice as many wounds to chew through, longer ranged weapons and -1AP on their bolt rifles. Or I could just give up on Battalions and their extra CPs and run Vanguard detachments.
I am not convinced the other units give us anything we cannot get elsewhere. Inceptors are very expensive, even after the points drop in the Marine codex (which we cannot take advantage of unless we run them as "Red Angels" :(). Hellblasters look quite nice but really need a Captain to hold their hands to minimise overheats. Aggressors look OK but need a transport to get those weapons up close. I am not convinced they bring anything we cannot get more cheaply with Van Vets or Comp Vets whose jump packs give them the mobility they need much more cheaply. Reivers look interesting but it is not as if we are short of good assault units.
I've passed on including any Primaris stuff in my army yet, as nothing released so far is dedicated to close combat. On Intersessors v Tacticals I just use a 10 man Tactical Squad, which has the advantage of more shots and a heavy flamer.
So is the optimal way to run Death Company 2x Chainswords on basically everyone? Possibly with a fist on one to help bust up big stuff now that fists are a lot cheaper than before (and actually cheaper than a Thunder Hammer).
Depends on what you want to kill and whether or not you're using an accompanying sanguinary priest.
Power axe with an accompanying sanguinary priest will wound T3 models on a 2+, and ignores GEQ armor saves.. Power maul with a priest will let you cause wounds to most vehicles on a 4+ or better, though you do lose out on armor saves. Still, you can wound T6 on a 3+ with it, which is excellent. Power swords with a priest will let you wound MEQ on a 3+ and render MEQ armor saves to a 6+ and completely removes lesser armor saves. Without a priest, barebones with 2xchainsword is a nice 4 attacks on a charge each, which is pretty beefy and wounds T3 on a 3+ still.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So is the optimal way to run Death Company 2x Chainswords on basically everyone? Possibly with a fist on one to help bust up big stuff now that fists are a lot cheaper than before (and actually cheaper than a Thunder Hammer).
I'm aware that the Power Fist was changed in SM, but was it FAQ'd for BA?
Hadn't realised that Death Company were running Chainswords for days. I thought you only get +1 attack for Chainswords. Can you split attacks between weapons or something?
casvalremdeikun wrote: So is the optimal way to run Death Company 2x Chainswords on basically everyone? Possibly with a fist on one to help bust up big stuff now that fists are a lot cheaper than before (and actually cheaper than a Thunder Hammer).
I'm aware that the Power Fist was changed in SM, but was it FAQ'd for BA?
I know that BA can use SM unit cards and their reduced prices for equipment. Not sure if this applies to death compan.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So is the optimal way to run Death Company 2x Chainswords on basically everyone? Possibly with a fist on one to help bust up big stuff now that fists are a lot cheaper than before (and actually cheaper than a Thunder Hammer).
I'm aware that the Power Fist was changed in SM, but was it FAQ'd for BA?
Hadn't realised that Death Company were running Chainswords for days. I thought you only get +1 attack for Chainswords. Can you split attacks between weapons or something?
In the FAQ regarding the SM Codex, they said use the new numbers wherever the overlap. So anything that has a Datasheet or Wargear option in the SM Codex can be overridden. Since I will have the SM Codex for my other main army (Crimson Fists), I am going to use the new values.
Yes, you can split the attacks between the two weapons, so you effectively get +2 Attacks if using two Chainswords.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So is the optimal way to run Death Company 2x Chainswords on basically everyone? Possibly with a fist on one to help bust up big stuff now that fists are a lot cheaper than before (and actually cheaper than a Thunder Hammer).
I'm aware that the Power Fist was changed in SM, but was it FAQ'd for BA?
Hadn't realised that Death Company were running Chainswords for days. I thought you only get +1 attack for Chainswords. Can you split attacks between weapons or something?
In the FAQ regarding the SM Codex, they said use the new numbers wherever the overlap. So anything that has a Datasheet or Wargear option in the SM Codex can be overridden. Since I will have the SM Codex for my other main army (Crimson Fists), I am going to use the new values.
Yeah, this makes me super freaking happy.
It saves me 55 points. CAn give my other two sniper squads camo cloaks and have 25 points left over for upgrades. Thinking some combiweapons if I can get some.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So is the optimal way to run Death Company 2x Chainswords on basically everyone? Possibly with a fist on one to help bust up big stuff now that fists are a lot cheaper than before (and actually cheaper than a Thunder Hammer).
I'm aware that the Power Fist was changed in SM, but was it FAQ'd for BA?
Hadn't realised that Death Company were running Chainswords for days. I thought you only get +1 attack for Chainswords. Can you split attacks between weapons or something?
In the FAQ regarding the SM Codex, they said use the new numbers wherever the overlap. So anything that has a Datasheet or Wargear option in the SM Codex can be overridden. Since I will have the SM Codex for my other main army (Crimson Fists), I am going to use the new values.
Yeah, this makes me super freaking happy.
It saves me 55 points. CAn give my other two sniper squads camo cloaks and have 25 points left over for upgrades. Thinking some combiweapons if I can get some.
Yup. Lots of stuff got cheaper. By my estimate, my BA list went down 32 pts just from Power Fists alone. I still like that Power Fists are actually worth taking over Thunder Hammers in some cases (they are 4 pts cheaper now).
Oh wow, I guess that means I will have room for relics and more Storm Bolters on Rhinos once our Codex finally drops! I am just going to use my Index until we get our Codex, don't want to pay for something I won't use.
But, one thing I have been thinking about it is, if we do get Furious Charge as our Chapter Tactic... Wouldn't Tactical Marines be better than their Primaris alternative just from the sheer number of attacks you get when charging?
NH Gunsmith wrote: Oh wow, I guess that means I will have room for relics and more Storm Bolters on Rhinos once our Codex finally drops! I am just going to use my Index until we get our Codex, don't want to pay for something I won't use.
But, one thing I have been thinking about it is, if we do get Furious Charge as our Chapter Tactic... Wouldn't Tactical Marines be better than their Primaris alternative just from the sheer number of attacks you get when charging?
Relics don't cost points. So you will already be able to do that.
I'm intensely interested in seeing what our Relics are, and what kind of additional psychic powers we can look forward to.
I'm honestly hoping for a weapon of some kind, hopefully a sword. In addition, I hope we can improve our Captain's armor save to a 2+ for a point increase, as Blood Angels are renowned for having artificer armor on many of their leaders, as well as the Sanguinary Guard obviously.
We shall see. I'm going to be working on a squad of 5 basic primaris marines with their upgraded bolters soon, as a back line holder, to go with my standard tactical squad marines. I play 5th battle company, so it makes sense to have some 'replacements' coming in the form of Primaris ranks after the events in the Angel's Blade book came to pass.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Oh wow, I guess that means I will have room for relics and more Storm Bolters on Rhinos once our Codex finally drops! I am just going to use my Index until we get our Codex, don't want to pay for something I won't use.
But, one thing I have been thinking about it is, if we do get Furious Charge as our Chapter Tactic... Wouldn't Tactical Marines be better than their Primaris alternative just from the sheer number of attacks you get when charging?
Relics don't cost points. So you will already be able to do that.
Sort of.
Relics cost CP. You can take up to three. First one costs zero CP. Second one costs one CP. Third one costs two CP, for a total of 3 CP for 3 relics.
Ah, I gotcha. I haven't gotten a great look at the Space Marines Codex reviews, do we know if wargear options like Artificer Armour are coming back for HQ choices?
I can't wait to see our new book, the entire 3rd Company the way I am fielding them come in at 3,009 points with transports. Hoping to get them all in at just under 3k. The standard game size here is 1,500 so it will be cool to play a 3 person game with two players versus the entire Blood Angels 3rd Company once they are assembled if there is an odd number of players on 40k night.
Ruchy wrote: I am really liking the idea of 5 man Vanguard vets with jump packs coming down with two Plasma pistols a piece for 160, ten shots with a 24" threat range.
Must be very special plasma pistols with 24" range, the ones in my index imperium 1 are only 12".
Bad choice anyway. 5 Company veterans with JP are 95, add 5 combi plasmaguns for 75, and you are at 170, plus 5 chainswords for 0. With combi plasmaguns you have 10 shots at 12" and 5 shots at 24". Your pistols only shoot at 12". You can shoot both the bolter and plasma, if you want, 4 shots at 12", or 2 shots at 24", with -1 BS. You can fire overwatch with 4 shots per model, hitting on 6s, the -1 modifier does not count. The chainsword adds +1 attack to each model. You can also replace the chainsword for a stormshield for 5 points per model if you want to improve their chances of staying alive longer.
Ruchy wrote: I am really liking the idea of 5 man Vanguard vets with jump packs coming down with two Plasma pistols a piece for 160, ten shots with a 24" threat range.
Must be very special plasma pistols with 24" range, the ones in my index imperium 1 are only 12".
Bad choice anyway. 5 Company veterans with JP are 95, add 5 combi plasmaguns for 75, and you are at 170, plus 5 chainswords for 0. With combi plasmaguns you have 10 shots at 12" and 5 shots at 24". Your pistols only shoot at 12". You can shoot both the bolter and plasma, if you want, 4 shots at 12", or 2 shots at 24", with -1 BS. You can fire overwatch with 4 shots per model, hitting on 6s, the -1 modifier does not count. The chainsword adds +1 attack to each model. You can also replace the chainsword for a stormshield for 5 points per model if you want to improve their chances of staying alive longer.
Ruchy wrote: I am really liking the idea of 5 man Vanguard vets with jump packs coming down with two Plasma pistols a piece for 160, ten shots with a 24" threat range.
Must be very special plasma pistols with 24" range, the ones in my index imperium 1 are only 12".
Bad choice anyway. 5 Company veterans with JP are 95, add 5 combi plasmaguns for 75, and you are at 170, plus 5 chainswords for 0. With combi plasmaguns you have 10 shots at 12" and 5 shots at 24". Your pistols only shoot at 12". You can shoot both the bolter and plasma, if you want, 4 shots at 12", or 2 shots at 24", with -1 BS. You can fire overwatch with 4 shots per model, hitting on 6s, the -1 modifier does not count. The chainsword adds +1 attack to each model. You can also replace the chainsword for a stormshield for 5 points per model if you want to improve their chances of staying alive longer.
As Frocozone said, they have a 12" move and have 12" range on the pistols, so 24" threat range.
Also, the pistols are superior on Vanguard Vets compared to the Combiplasma, and here's why.
You shoot with the paired Plasma Pistols, then charge in, attack, and the following turn if your opponent stays in melee with you, you can then shoot the pistols in the shooting phase while still fighting in the fight phase, so you don't have to jump out of combat to use the weapons as you would with a Combiplasma. I'd rather take the two plasma pistol shots hitting on 3+ (and able to fire both in and out of melee) and two ST:4 attacks in melee at 3+ to hit and keep a unit tied up/forcing them to fall back than have two additional bolter shots from a combi plasma that force me to hit on 4+ with both the bolt shots and plasma shots.
You shoot with the paired Plasma Pistols, then charge in, attack, and the following turn if your opponent stays in melee with you, you can then shoot the pistols in the shooting phase while still fighting in the fight phase, so you don't have to jump out of combat to use the weapons as you would with a Combiplasma. I'd rather take the two plasma pistol shots hitting on 3+ (and able to fire both in and out of melee) and two ST:4 attacks in melee at 3+ to hit and keep a unit tied up/forcing them to fall back than have two additional bolter shots from a combi plasma that force me to hit on 4+ with both the bolt shots and plasma shots.
Ok, less attacks, less range, but better hit chance, and more damage, more AP.
You shoot with the paired Plasma Pistols, then charge in, attack, and the following turn if your opponent stays in melee with you, you can then shoot the pistols in the shooting phase while still fighting in the fight phase, so you don't have to jump out of combat to use the weapons as you would with a Combiplasma. I'd rather take the two plasma pistol shots hitting on 3+ (and able to fire both in and out of melee) and two ST:4 attacks in melee at 3+ to hit and keep a unit tied up/forcing them to fall back than have two additional bolter shots from a combi plasma that force me to hit on 4+ with both the bolt shots and plasma shots.
Ok, less attacks, less range, but better hit chance, and more damage, more AP.
Wait? What? More damage? More AP? What are you smoking? Can I have some?
It's literally the same strength (2x plasma pistol shots at the same strength and AP as 2x plasma gun shots, and the space marine's melee attacks are the same as the bolter's, ST:4, AP:-).
The difference is that the combi plasma can put one shot out to 24" (Or 36" if you're factoring in movement, which we have been) so you have a greater threat range, with reduced amount of threat (5x shots vs. 10 shots inside 12" or 10 shots with 2x plasma pistols each). Also, as I said, you can fire both parts of a combi plasma but it reduces your to-hit to a 4+ instead. Not ideal.
If you get stuck in melee, you don't have to leave combat, exposing yourself to more enemy fire and removing the ability to charge back in on your turn. Yes you can shoot, but I'd MUCH rather stay in melee, and fire the pistols at 3+ to hit at the targets I'm engaged with, and then attack with 3+ to hit with two melee attacks per model. Hell, the Sergeant gets a third attack if memory serves, so you get slightly MORE potential damage output staying in melee and blasting with the plasma pistols before then smashing the enemy with them in the fight phase. Force the enemy to fall back away from you if they have to.
There's no place where, on Vanguarrd Veterans anyway, a combi plasma is superior to paired plasma pistols except for range, and I don't care about range, as the Vanguard Vets can drop in with jump packs and light a target up.
Ruchy wrote: I am really liking the idea of 5 man Vanguard vets with jump packs coming down with two Plasma pistols a piece for 160, ten shots with a 24" threat range.
Must be very special plasma pistols with 24" range, the ones in my index imperium 1 are only 12".
Bad choice anyway. 5 Company veterans with JP are 95, add 5 combi plasmaguns for 75, and you are at 170, plus 5 chainswords for 0. With combi plasmaguns you have 10 shots at 12" and 5 shots at 24". Your pistols only shoot at 12". You can shoot both the bolter and plasma, if you want, 4 shots at 12", or 2 shots at 24", with -1 BS. You can fire overwatch with 4 shots per model, hitting on 6s, the -1 modifier does not count. The chainsword adds +1 attack to each model. You can also replace the chainsword for a stormshield for 5 points per model if you want to improve their chances of staying alive longer.
As Frocozone said, they have a 12" move and have 12" range on the pistols, so 24" threat range.
Also, the pistols are superior on Vanguard Vets compared to the Combiplasma, and here's why.
You shoot with the paired Plasma Pistols, then charge in, attack, and the following turn if your opponent stays in melee with you, you can then shoot the pistols in the shooting phase while still fighting in the fight phase, so you don't have to jump out of combat to use the weapons as you would with a Combiplasma. I'd rather take the two plasma pistol shots hitting on 3+ (and able to fire both in and out of melee) and two ST:4 attacks in melee at 3+ to hit and keep a unit tied up/forcing them to fall back than have two additional bolter shots from a combi plasma that force me to hit on 4+ with both the bolt shots and plasma shots.
Just my opinion on that.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
So after you shoot and charge in melee, you can shoot your plasma pistols during your opponents shooting phase next turn?
So after you shoot and charge in melee, you can shoot your plasma pistols during your opponents shooting phase next turn?
No no no no no no...
Your opponent gets their turn, and you would get to attack with your Vanguard Vets with their melee attacks when you activate them, provided your opponent doesn't flee from combat in the movement phase.
If the enemy remains engaged with your Vanguard Vets on their turn, and they are still engaged with you on your next shooting phase, you can again blast them with paired plasma pistols without having to leave combat on your own movement phase (though you can jump out and still shoot if you wish thanks to the Fly keyword, you lose out on the attacks in melee, but if you're trying to prevent further melee casualties, I can see this being viable).
Wait? What? More damage? More AP? What are you smoking? Can I have some?
Lets assume that by some miracle no one dies, and play this through.
I deepstrike, shoot four times (hitting at 4+), charge in, get 16 attacks in CC (chainsword +1 attack), in my enemys turn i also get 16 attacks in CC. In my next turn i jump out of CC, and shoot again four times, hitting at 4+. That gives me 20 attacks at S4 DS0, W1, hitting at 4+. 32 attacks hitting at 3+, with S4, DS0, W1. And 20 attacks at S7 DS-3, W1, hitting on 4+. I can charge in again, and attack in CC.
You deepstrike, shoot twice, charge in, get 11 attacks in CC, in your enemys turn again 11 CC attacks, in your turns shooting phase you get to shoot twice again, in CC. You get 20 shots at S7, AP-3, W1, and 22 CC attacks at S4 AP0, W1. Always hitting on 3+. You stay in CC.
In total i have 72 attacks, you only have 42 attacks. My chance to hit is worse with some of them, and i do less damage with some of them. But i have 30 more attacks than you do.
If you get stuck in melee, you don't have to leave combat, exposing yourself to more enemy fire and removing the ability to charge back in on your turn.
No, i dont have to leave combat, but my enemy could, exposing me to enemy fire. So it doesnt really matter.
There's no place where, on Vanguarrd Veterans anyway, a combi plasma is superior to paired plasma pistols except for range, and I don't care about range, as the Vanguard Vets can drop in with jump packs and light a target up.
I find company veterans superior to vanguard veterans. Its not just the combi plasma, i also get a chainsword for free, which gives +1 attack in CC. And i can fire 20 shots of overwatch, the -1 modifier to hit does not count, with pistols its only 10. And i have 24" range. I get all of that for just 10 more points, for 5 models, compared to the vanguard veterans.
So who here is planning on taking Lieutenants to buff the damage of your jump troops?
That guy's pretty cheap for a quick and easy reroll-1s on to-wounds aura, and not too shabby in close combat (4 wounds, 3 attacks, WS2+) for 78 points. And according to GW, we absolutely can take units like the Lt without losing BattleForged.
He's only WS3+ unfortunately. Shame. If he were 2+ (like a WGBL) he might be worth taking with a TH.
For a few more points you can take a Sanguinary Ancient who comes with a JP, 2+ save and allows nearby units to ignore Morale as well as allowing rerolls to wound of a 1.
An Ancient is better with JP units IMHO but a Lieutenant is not too shabby baby-sitting some Devastators.
Death Company [10 PL, 100pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company [20 PL, 200pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company Dreadnought [11 PL, 212pts]: Furioso fist (pair), Heavy flamer, Meltagun, Smoke launchers
Went with 100 PL. (I'm usually a points person but it seems in my new area there are more PL players.)
2x libby-nought
3 ASC/melee dreads, one with heavy flamer
2 Las/missile dreads
1 FW relic contemptor dread with ASC/melee
1 twin HB razorback
3 auto/las preds
Beat tyranids with 2 swarms of gants, tervigon, swarmlord, genestealer pack, broodlord, 3 'fexes, 2 groups of 3 warriors, and a prime. He got in a t1 charge with swarmlord on the 'stealers and a successful long-bomb charge, but the 3 ASC dreads that got dragged in made him pay for it, and none of them dropped. Dice were kind of cold turn 1, but my turn 2 all the lascannons went hot, and every successful wound pulled down 6 damage. Many of the big bugs were heavily wounded, and then dropped turn 3. He took out 3 dreads and damaged almost everything else except for the corner-shooting las/missile dreads, but was down to gaunts only on turn 4.
Played against death guard with 50 PL 1 libby nought
3 ASC/claw dreads, 1 heavy flamer
2 las/missile dreads
1 razorback
He came in with 60 poxwalkers, typhus, another psyker, two of the bell-dudes, and a unit of plague marines. Needless to say with no transports, the first couple turns were pox units getting crippled, however once he got to combat, his dice went blazing-go-to-vegas-right-now hot. His psyker took 9 unsaved wounds TWICE from a dread ccw, and the fnp 5+ made him take only 3 of the 18. 4 Poxwalkers lived through dread ccw attacks by rolling triple 5+'s, Typhus passed every invuln save, he passed every psychic test all game on a 10 or 11, (but not 12!) and he got d6's on smite 4 times, all of which rolled 5+. At the sight of this, my dice started packing up and going home. Dreads were getting 0-1 hits in melee, the shooty dreads were completely whiffing, I rolled under 7 on every psychic test and got denied on literally every power all game. The crazy part is that at the bottom of 7, I still could've won if I could've killed 4 pox walkers with a las/missile dread and the razorback, or if one of the previous dreads in a melee mosh-pit had exploded, as several of his characters were on 1-2 wounds.
Sad days on that one. That may have been the most lucky opponent I've ever played against. My dice go cold all the time so that part wasn't a surprise, but when he started back-to-back having poxes and 4 wound no-invuln characters tanking dreadnought attacks, I was floored.
So +1 and -1 on the Konor score for imperium. At least I didn't do damage to us I guess.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So is the optimal way to run Death Company 2x Chainswords on basically everyone? Possibly with a fist on one to help bust up big stuff now that fists are a lot cheaper than before (and actually cheaper than a Thunder Hammer).
I'm aware that the Power Fist was changed in SM, but was it FAQ'd for BA?
Hadn't realised that Death Company were running Chainswords for days. I thought you only get +1 attack for Chainswords. Can you split attacks between weapons or something?
In the FAQ regarding the SM Codex, they said use the new numbers wherever the overlap. So anything that has a Datasheet or Wargear option in the SM Codex can be overridden. Since I will have the SM Codex for my other main army (Crimson Fists), I am going to use the new values.
Yes, you can split the attacks between the two weapons, so you effectively get +2 Attacks if using two Chainswords.
I read thru the FAQ's can't find any mention of this, Could you post the link and what page?
Karhedron wrote:
For a few more points you can take a Sanguinary Ancient who comes with a JP, 2+ save and allows nearby units to ignore Morale as well as allowing rerolls to wound of a 1.
The rerolls to wound on a 1 are only in the fight phase.
senor_flojo wrote:So I'm planning a new list, looking to get feedback.
I think chainswords on veterans are wasted, you should give them some power weapons to make their 2 attacks count. Maybe remove some models from your death company.
Remtek wrote:
I read thru the FAQ's can't find any mention of this, Could you post the link and what page?
casvalremdeikun wrote: So is the optimal way to run Death Company 2x Chainswords on basically everyone? Possibly with a fist on one to help bust up big stuff now that fists are a lot cheaper than before (and actually cheaper than a Thunder Hammer).
I'm aware that the Power Fist was changed in SM, but was it FAQ'd for BA?
Hadn't realised that Death Company were running Chainswords for days. I thought you only get +1 attack for Chainswords. Can you split attacks between weapons or something?
In the FAQ regarding the SM Codex, they said use the new numbers wherever the overlap. So anything that has a Datasheet or Wargear option in the SM Codex can be overridden. Since I will have the SM Codex for my other main army (Crimson Fists), I am going to use the new values.
Yes, you can split the attacks between the two weapons, so you effectively get +2 Attacks if using two Chainswords.
I read thru the FAQ's can't find any mention of this, Could you post the link and what page?
The FAQ I've seen says he's wrong.
[url]https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/
[/url]
There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?
While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range.
There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example. Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.
Based on how this reads, there is no swapping of points back and forth between the codex and index. If you use the Codex, you use codex points/rules. If you use the index, you use index points.
senor_flojo wrote:So I'm planning a new list, looking to get feedback.
I think chainswords on veterans are wasted, you should give them some power weapons to make their 2 attacks count. Maybe remove some models from your death company.
Good call, just went back and magnetized the squad!
Death Company [10 PL, 100pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company [20 PL, 200pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
Death Company Dreadnought [11 PL, 212pts]: Furioso fist (pair), Heavy flamer, Meltagun, Smoke launchers
Coyote81 wrote: Based on how this reads, there is no swapping of points back and forth between the codex and index. If you use the Codex, you use codex points/rules. If you use the index, you use index points.
If you have a Deathwatch army, the same applies. For the Deathwatch, as well as new units, if you have the new Codex: Space Marines, feel free to use the full range of powers from the Space Marines Librarius Discipline in there for your Librarians. You’re equally welcome to stick with the Index powers if you prefer.
Or in other words, a Deathwatch Librarian can pick an choose whether or not to use the new librarian rules or the index ones for Deathwatch. Which I take as a permissive supporting my philosophy of "take the codex where it applies, the index where it doesn't".
I'm building my BA as generic space marines (no chapter tactics, but generic relics) from C:SM, save that I'm using the sanguinary discipline from the index and potentially sanguinary guard and sanguinary priests, as well. I don't like using named characters so those are out anyway for me.
So this is in response to some of the lists I've seen posted. Take what you want to take, the point is to have fun, but this is some pseudo math hammering that I do when I'm looking at different list options so I can try and make sure I'm bringing enough tools to not get pantsed. It's not real mathhammer, I'm just charting the strength and number or shots I get from my ranged weapons. I don't count pistols or melee attacks because they're not "reliably" going to go off every turn. I'm posting this because it's really easy to get caught up in chain sword spam so I'm hoping it helps some burgeoning list builders out there start reppin' for The Emperors finest.
The first thing is to consider your opponents. Let's pretend they're MEQ because odds
Based on the internet, everyone is in love with assbacks and vehicles again. Basically every vehicle is T7, so I want to know I can handle T7 with my shooting.
If something, flamers, has a random number of hits just count it as four per d6. You want an idea, not accuracy.
If something gets a re-roll to hit, either total or just on 1, add an asterix. You should be pessimistic when determining final damage, so mentally you should halve all your shots to determine hits. This asterix tells you that those four lascannon shots could actually be three or four hits instead of two.
Anything lower than T7 I'm going to assume I'll be punching in the face, because BA.
Try to justify your choice of being BA. If your list would perform better as a different Chapter, then go be that different chapter. Don't be strawberry vanilla. Granted, this is currently difficult, but try.
Now I make a chart on paper because it's easier to process when written instead of typed. In the header column I have the names of the lists, then in the subsequent columns I have S4 through S9, these are what count unless you're going outside of the codex. Still don't take vindicators, they're not worth the points yet.
The first list was very dakka and flavorful. It has Meph, Lemartes, a Sanguinary Priest, DC, DC Dread, and a descent accompaniment of armor. I love this list and I'm definitely gonna fun run it. It lacks on the re-roll security however, and a lot of its anti vehicle could get locked in combat cause they're jump pack meltas that I plan on using turn 2 when the dread is flown in. So overall the list lacks alpha capability as well as the reach out and touch someone feel of lascannons. It makes up for it in combat, but that's unreliable. This list probably won't kill a tank turn one.
V2 I think I hit a good blend of BA guilt and generic units with this one. I dropped the assbacks for lasbacks so a captain could babysit my long range communications and added a hellblaster squad so I could play with the new toys and have a high powered death bubble around the captain. Still got a lot of death company so I don't feel guilty about dropping Meph. Also stripped the tacticals down to just objective sitters. This list has the lowest low power shots, which is theoretically what BA combat is for, but the highest number of high powered re-rolls to take on the vehicle meta. This list probably will kill a tank turn one.
V3 Is me trying to add more primaris marines to the core. I swapped a couple of the bare tacticals for intercessors, added a priest to increase the DC punch, dropped the auto preds for a baal pred. I advice against baal preds but wanted to add back in unique BA units and figured a bully flamer tank backing up the DC could be cute. Then added another lasback to the captains retinue. This list probably will kill a tank turn one.
For competitive I'm probably going to go with V2 because I was able to maximize its high strength reliable shooting while still keeping half the army assault based. As BA I think we need to thread the needle of assault and shooty. If we're gun lines we're wasting our potential, but if we're assault based we risk bad match ups. The lists aren't posted because the post is about counting out what you're really bringing to the table and iterating on your initial idea instead of fantasizing about angry marines punching things and ending up disappointed in their performance.
Anyway, sorry for rambling and I hope this helps some newer players.
I usually count flamers as 3.5 hits, as they average between thre and four technically (each result, 1-6, has an equal chance of resulting technically, so (1+2+3+4+5+6)/6 = 3.5). Rounding it up to four does make them appear slightly stronger than they actually are, so be aware of that.
Coyote81 wrote: Based on how this reads, there is no swapping of points back and forth between the codex and index. If you use the Codex, you use codex points/rules. If you use the index, you use index points.
If you have a Deathwatch army, the same applies. For the Deathwatch, as well as new units, if you have the new Codex: Space Marines, feel free to use the full range of powers from the Space Marines Librarius Discipline in there for your Librarians. You’re equally welcome to stick with the Index powers if you prefer.
Or in other words, a Deathwatch Librarian can pick an choose whether or not to use the new librarian rules or the index ones for Deathwatch. Which I take as a permissive supporting my philosophy of "take the codex where it applies, the index where it doesn't".
I'm building my BA as generic space marines (no chapter tactics, but generic relics) from C:SM, save that I'm using the sanguinary discipline from the index and potentially sanguinary guard and sanguinary priests, as well. I don't like using named characters so those are out anyway for me.
Well if your group agrees, you can do whatever you want, even if it stretches the rules alot. My group will allow the deathwatch librarians to use either discipline, because Deathwatch don't have their own codex, so they can use either Librarian, but they can't mix and match. And especially not having them be a blood angel successor and using the C:SM datasheet and special rules, which is clearly called out in the C:SM as not allowed before the special rules start.
I don't see this what I'm doing as stretching the rules beyond GW's intent.
I quote from the same page:
Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves army lists in Index: Imperium 1 all let you use units from the Space Marines section of that book. If you own the new codex, you should feel free to use those same units’ Datasheets from that book instead, until your own codex comes out.
Emphasis mine.
Blood Angels use a lot of units from the generic Space Marine section of the index. Games Workshop explicitly said that if you have the codex, you can take units from the codex that are updates to the generic units of the index.
Melissia wrote: I don't see this what I'm doing as stretching the rules beyond GW's intent.
I quote from the same page:
Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves army lists in Index: Imperium 1 all let you use units from the Space Marines section of that book. If you own the new codex, you should feel free to use those same units’ Datasheets from that book instead, until your own codex comes out.
Emphasis mine.
Blood Angels use a lot of units from the generic Space Marine section of the index. Games Workshop explicitly said that if you have the codex, you can take units from the codex that are updates to the generic units of the index.
You can use the space marines the same way you did in the index, which means you get none of the space marine codex special rules, just the updated datasheets. So no C:SM relics etc and such things from that book. Only datasheets, and especially not taking C:SM librarians using c:ssm benefits while taking the sanguinary discipline, that straight cheating imo. The deathwatch used the basic librarian discipline to start, so it makes since that they can take the expanded one. The blood angel sections says specifically that you have to take the sanguinary discipline, but that only counts if your a blood angel or successor. If you use any special rules form c:sm, your not a blood angel.
In other news, what are people's thoughts on having access to all of the primaris stuff? That repulsor tank seems rather cool, outclasses our baal predator by miles imo.
Aggressors would look beautiful in red imho, and the flamer weapons are calling out to me... Plus Inceptors with the plasma guns look pretty neat, and would fit well with a drop army. My main issue again with the Primaris stuff is nothing is really made for close combat, except maybe Reivers. Plus with our Sergeants having no power weapons, eh, not interested yet.
Aggressors would look beautiful in red imho, and the flamer weapons are calling out to me... Plus Inceptors with the plasma guns look pretty neat, and would fit well with a drop army. My main issue again with the Primaris stuff is nothing is really made for close combat, except maybe Reivers. Plus with our Sergeants having no power weapons, eh, not interested yet.
diepotato47 wrote: Aggressors would look beautiful in red imho, and the flamer weapons are calling out to me... Plus Inceptors with the plasma guns look pretty neat, and would fit well with a drop army. My main issue again with the Primaris stuff is nothing is really made for close combat, except maybe Reivers. Plus with our Sergeants having no power weapons, eh, not interested yet.
What I'd give for Primaris Death Company...
Given that the Gene Seed is meant to be more stable though, can't see it happening.
I'm after jump and bike Primaris units. Interceptors are awesome models, but an army of 18" Heavy Bolters is a bit meh.
Primaris Death Company have to happen, otherwise all the people saying it's the death of Marines as we know it would be wrong I'm sure at some point down the track there will be a more "Assault Marine" Primaris varient, at the moment Inceptors are more like Drop Centurions than anything else
Primaris Death Company won't ever happen because there are no genetic flaws in these new super-humans and 8th edition is just like 7th edition, you simply cannot just think to make a full CaC army because you ll be utterly smashed.
brokbrok wrote: So this is in response to some of the lists I've seen posted. Take what you want to take, the point is to have fun, but this is some pseudo math hammering that I do when I'm looking at different list options so I can try and make sure I'm bringing enough tools to not get pantsed. It's not real mathhammer, I'm just charting the strength and number or shots I get from my ranged weapons. I don't count pistols or melee attacks because they're not "reliably" going to go off every turn. I'm posting this because it's really easy to get caught up in chain sword spam so I'm hoping it helps some burgeoning list builders out there start reppin' for The Emperors finest.
The first thing is to consider your opponents. Let's pretend they're MEQ because odds
Based on the internet, everyone is in love with assbacks and vehicles again. Basically every vehicle is T7, so I want to know I can handle T7 with my shooting.
If something, flamers, has a random number of hits just count it as four per d6. You want an idea, not accuracy.
If something gets a re-roll to hit, either total or just on 1, add an asterix. You should be pessimistic when determining final damage, so mentally you should halve all your shots to determine hits. This asterix tells you that those four lascannon shots could actually be three or four hits instead of two.
Anything lower than T7 I'm going to assume I'll be punching in the face, because BA.
Try to justify your choice of being BA. If your list would perform better as a different Chapter, then go be that different chapter. Don't be strawberry vanilla. Granted, this is currently difficult, but try.
Now I make a chart on paper because it's easier to process when written instead of typed. In the header column I have the names of the lists, then in the subsequent columns I have S4 through S9, these are what count unless you're going outside of the codex. Still don't take vindicators, they're not worth the points yet.
The first list was very dakka and flavorful. It has Meph, Lemartes, a Sanguinary Priest, DC, DC Dread, and a descent accompaniment of armor. I love this list and I'm definitely gonna fun run it. It lacks on the re-roll security however, and a lot of its anti vehicle could get locked in combat cause they're jump pack meltas that I plan on using turn 2 when the dread is flown in. So overall the list lacks alpha capability as well as the reach out and touch someone feel of lascannons. It makes up for it in combat, but that's unreliable. This list probably won't kill a tank turn one.
V2 I think I hit a good blend of BA guilt and generic units with this one. I dropped the assbacks for lasbacks so a captain could babysit my long range communications and added a hellblaster squad so I could play with the new toys and have a high powered death bubble around the captain. Still got a lot of death company so I don't feel guilty about dropping Meph. Also stripped the tacticals down to just objective sitters. This list has the lowest low power shots, which is theoretically what BA combat is for, but the highest number of high powered re-rolls to take on the vehicle meta. This list probably will kill a tank turn one.
V3 Is me trying to add more primaris marines to the core. I swapped a couple of the bare tacticals for intercessors, added a priest to increase the DC punch, dropped the auto preds for a baal pred. I advice against baal preds but wanted to add back in unique BA units and figured a bully flamer tank backing up the DC could be cute. Then added another lasback to the captains retinue. This list probably will kill a tank turn one.
For competitive I'm probably going to go with V2 because I was able to maximize its high strength reliable shooting while still keeping half the army assault based. As BA I think we need to thread the needle of assault and shooty. If we're gun lines we're wasting our potential, but if we're assault based we risk bad match ups. The lists aren't posted because the post is about counting out what you're really bringing to the table and iterating on your initial idea instead of fantasizing about angry marines punching things and ending up disappointed in their performance.
Anyway, sorry for rambling and I hope this helps some newer players.
As someone who's brand new to list building, this is super interesting to read. I would love to see some more theory/strategy articles about list building, got any suggestions?
Try Battlescribe, it makes building lists super easy. All you need is click what you want and the program does all the calculations for you, and you can print your list later. And the best thing is, its free. Awesome tool.
Oh please let us have Stormtalons. I have a pair already and I will run them as "Red Angels" if I have to but I would so love to be able to field a proper BA Air Wing detachment.
But since this is Games Workshop, you can calculate the chances of it happening by rolling a D6, dividing by the day of the week and multiplying by the colour purple.
Karhedron wrote: Oh please let us have Stormtalons. I have a pair already and I will run them as "Red Angels" if I have to but I would so love to be able to field a proper BA Air Wing detachment.
But since this is Games Workshop, you can calculate the chances of it happening by rolling a D6, dividing by the day of the week and multiplying by the colour purple.
I'd love to get my hands on a Stormhawk interceptor with Blood Angels chapter tactics. I love the Stormhawk model (the Storm Talon, not so much) and would love to have one on the board down the road.
We'll see what happens, fingers crossed we'll get it.
Red__Thirst wrote: I'd love to get my hands on a Stormhawk interceptor with Blood Angels chapter tactics. I love the Stormhawk model (the Storm Talon, not so much) and would love to have one on the board down the road.
We'll see what happens, fingers crossed we'll get it.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Stormhawk is better for air-to-air combat, Stormtalon for air-to-ground
Stormhawk is better for air-to-air combat, Stormtalon for air-to-ground
Yea... I know. It's fairly obvious what their roles are. I have two Storm Ravens for air to ground if need-be. I want a dedicated anti-air that can also work ground targets over if need be.
PandatheWarrior wrote:Stormtalon is low tier atm anyway, even vs ground stormhawk is more cost/efficient.
Exactly this. Nothing against the Storm Talon, I think it's suited for it's role, I have just never been a fan of the model; especially when compared to the newer Stormhawk model.
Well, after my first two games with Blood Angels at 1,500:
-The first against Tau (lots of firewarriors with some pathfinders, cadre fireblade?, battlesuit commander, riptide and the suit with missiles on missiles).
TROOPS
-5x Tactical Marines w/ Hand Flamer, Powerfist, Flamer
-10x Tactical Marines w/ Hand Flamer, Powerfist, Flamer, Heavy Flamer
-10x Tactical Marines w/ Combi-Plasma, Chainsword, Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon
FAST
-10x Assault Marines w/ 3x Plasma Pistol, Lightning Claw
HEAVY
-10x Devastators w/ 4x Missile Launchers
TRANSPORTS
-2x Rhinos w/ Storm Bolter
We played Kill Points, and although I made some bad plays (this being my first game of 8th), this game felt very winnable. I went first and the missile Devastators deleted 12 Fire Warriors with Frag Missiles and a little help from the Plasma Squad(it felt great). The Devastators were the all-stars this game. Killed his Battlesuit Commander, kept hammering his other Fire Warrior squads in cover and nearly killed his missile suit.
I ended up losing due to Kill Points, but learned:
-The vets were useless. Easy Kill Points
-Company Ancient didn't make a difference
-Don't shoot at what you plan to charge with Assault Marines, they will most likely pull their casualties from the front. Assault Marines swiftly died after shooting three Pathfinders
-Sanguinary Novitiate was useless as well.
I tweaked my list for the game I had the following week.
I played against Craftworld Eldar with Harlequins (Farseer, Troupe Master, 2 10 man Guardian squads, 5 man Harlequin squad, Solitaire, 3 Wave Serpents, Harlequin transport, Falcon and Fire Prism). I didn't stans a chance at all. We rolled for mission and got Kill Points, and I just spent the game getting hammered and charged by Wave Serpents that fell back in his turn and shot while the other vehicles that didn't charge last turn did it all over again.
I could barely do anything to his vehicles, the Harlequins didn't really do much though. They charged, killed a few Marines and died quickly. I am beginning to think against Eldar I need some small Melta squads that are bubble wrapped so that one squad can fall back while that squad hits them with Melta. Assault Marines are also super pillow fisted and easily tied up by lightning fast Wave Serpents. Chaplain was great though, killed the Farseer after nearly finishing off a Wave Serpent.
Well, two vets cant do much if you dont equip them right. Get 4-6, give them combiplasma, stormshield, JP. Add a captain with the same loadout. Deepstrike, supercharge plasma, reroll 1s, and watch those serpents die.
Rhinos suck, to expensive. Go razorback(s), with whatever heavy weaponry you like. No need for devastators anymore. Razorbacks can move further, are tougher, have more wounds, and can carry 6 models.
Its much better to shoot your enemy from far away, melee is no longer a viable option. As you said, models from the front are removed, next turn your unit gets wiped out by gunfire.
p5freak wrote: Well, two vets cant do much if you dont equip them right. Get 4-6, give them combiplasma, stormshield, JP. Add a captain with the same loadout. Deepstrike, supercharge plasma, reroll 1s, and watch those serpents die.
Rhinos suck, to expensive. Go razorback(s), with whatever heavy weaponry you like. No need for devastators anymore. Razorbacks can move further, are tougher, have more wounds, and can carry 6 models.
Its much better to shoot your enemy from far away, melee is no longer a viable option. As you said, models from the front are removed, next turn your unit gets wiped out by gunfire.
This is so sad to hear and yet true. My Orks have felt this and I'm hesitant to restart my BA army (except for 30k).
Shooting with a Melee army? Taken from the front to increase charge range.
Charging with a Melee army? 2CP to mitigate damage somewhere and auto fall back exposing one self.
I might have been OK with this...if the twin linked from last edition didn't basically double the amount of shots and get re-rolls from somewhere else (also Overwatch for shooting armies but no melee Overwatch for units that want to stay in combat?)
NH Gunsmith wrote: Well, after my first two games with Blood Angels at 1,500:
-The first against Tau (lots of firewarriors with some pathfinders, cadre fireblade?, battlesuit commander, riptide and the suit with missiles on missiles).
TROOPS
-5x Tactical Marines w/ Hand Flamer, Powerfist, Flamer
-10x Tactical Marines w/ Hand Flamer, Powerfist, Flamer, Heavy Flamer
-10x Tactical Marines w/ Combi-Plasma, Chainsword, Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon
FAST
-10x Assault Marines w/ 3x Plasma Pistol, Lightning Claw
HEAVY
-10x Devastators w/ 4x Missile Launchers
TRANSPORTS
-2x Rhinos w/ Storm Bolter
We played Kill Points, and although I made some bad plays (this being my first game of 8th), this game felt very winnable. I went first and the missile Devastators deleted 12 Fire Warriors with Frag Missiles and a little help from the Plasma Squad(it felt great). The Devastators were the all-stars this game. Killed his Battlesuit Commander, kept hammering his other Fire Warrior squads in cover and nearly killed his missile suit.
I ended up losing due to Kill Points, but learned:
-The vets were useless. Easy Kill Points
-Company Ancient didn't make a difference
-Don't shoot at what you plan to charge with Assault Marines, they will most likely pull their casualties from the front. Assault Marines swiftly died after shooting three Pathfinders
-Sanguinary Novitiate was useless as well.
I tweaked my list for the game I had the following week.
I played against Craftworld Eldar with Harlequins (Farseer, Troupe Master, 2 10 man Guardian squads, 5 man Harlequin squad, Solitaire, 3 Wave Serpents, Harlequin transport, Falcon and Fire Prism). I didn't stans a chance at all. We rolled for mission and got Kill Points, and I just spent the game getting hammered and charged by Wave Serpents that fell back in his turn and shot while the other vehicles that didn't charge last turn did it all over again.
I could barely do anything to his vehicles, the Harlequins didn't really do much though. They charged, killed a few Marines and died quickly. I am beginning to think against Eldar I need some small Melta squads that are bubble wrapped so that one squad can fall back while that squad hits them with Melta. Assault Marines are also super pillow fisted and easily tied up by lightning fast Wave Serpents. Chaplain was great though, killed the Farseer after nearly finishing off a Wave Serpent.
I don't think it's so much that vets are useless, chainsswords are useless, you really need vets with powerswords and a priest and the'll get stuff down. Chainsword take to long to kill stuff by weight of numbers, Especially when those units can just leave close combat on a whim.
Full disclosure, I don't know anything cause I haven't had a chance to play yet, but shouldn't melee work just fine in this addition if you have a properly balanced force? Of course you shouldn't shoot something you're about to charge if it's going to lose you the charge, but you have the option to shoot a different target in this addition so your guns aren't wasted.
brokbrok wrote: Full disclosure, I don't know anything cause I haven't had a chance to play yet, but shouldn't melee work just fine in this addition if you have a properly balanced force? Of course you shouldn't shoot something you're about to charge if it's going to lose you the charge, but you have the option to shoot a different target in this addition so your guns aren't wasted.
The main problem is that is really hard to lock down units in melee in this edition. You need to kill what you charge, or suffer the wrath of the rest of the army next turn without having accomplished your goal.
brokbrok wrote: Full disclosure, I don't know anything cause I haven't had a chance to play yet, but shouldn't melee work just fine in this addition if you have a properly balanced force? Of course you shouldn't shoot something you're about to charge if it's going to lose you the charge, but you have the option to shoot a different target in this addition so your guns aren't wasted.
There are a number of factors working against melee this edition.
-Overwatch is not only still here, but can be attempted by every unit, even vehicles, old blast weapons etc, and they can overwatch every unit that charges until one makes it in. It's all fun and games until a quad las predator hits multiple times on overwatch against your furioso dread.
-Units that don't like the combat can waltz right on outta there. This means against any target you want to hit, you get one turn of swings. You no longer get to stick in and fight it out unless your opponent is happy to let you, which is probably bad news for your dudes. In older editions you could expect combat BAMF's like Dante to get their swings twice if they made it in. Now just once, and getting into combat and then being left there most likely put you in a more compromising position than you'd like.
-Screening blob units are very powerful right now, due to an extreme lack of weapons and units that can get them out of the way efficiently. You would think "flamers and blasts" naturally, until you play against say, conscripts, and have a flamer roast one dude and a rapid fire battle cannon drop like 3. And since you can't get them out of the way, melee guys either waste themselves jumping into the screen, or chill until an unacceptably late time in the game when you've finally got them out of the way. At that point, the damage has been done, and your melee force is a day late and dollar short, assuming they're even still alive.
-Cover is harder to get and does less. Melee used to be a relevant solution to knocking out weak guys who had obnoxious cover saves, assuming you weren't playing one of the several armies that could ignore it. Now people rarely rely on those types of units, so via supply and demand, the bully units that always wanted to go after them are mostly out of a job. In addition, cover being more difficult to grab hurts melee units trying to make it to ranged units, but doesn't hurt ranged units who are facing down melee units.
-A minor point, but the unit that you got to does still get to smack you back, sometimes before you swing depending on the CP situation or their abilities. This is another thorn in the side of the old "bully" units, as they tend to be just a little stronger than their targets, and after being whittled, can very realistically lose in melee.
-Any gun that used to be twin-linked is now deadlier. And depending on the melee unit in question, any amount of AP is now deadlier.
-It's easier to make a good shooting formation get buffs from characters than it is to get a melee group to access similar buffs while also trying to pile in and swing with as much as possible.
Because of the way melee works now, it's not really that inaccurate to view it as a shooting phase where all your "guns" have 1" range. A marine with a chainsword for example is throwing 2 s4 ap- swings, which is the exact same damage output as a bolter at 12".
The end result of the current rule set is that melee units that do not hit like trucks are very...questionable in their usefulness. The role of "pestering and tying up enemy units" hardly exists anymore, so chaff melee units like assault marines are having existential crises. And with shooting power rising, even good melee units are forced to answer a very plain question. Can you reliably get to the enemy suffering no more than 1 shooting phase and 1 overwatch, and then will you kill what you hit? If the answer is no, on the shelf it goes.
What that means is that it's difficult to be a deathstar unless you're the best deathstar.
Have you tried massed assault? You can easily fit three death company with jump packs and mixed weaponry, and a sanguinary priest for 400-500 or so points (three squads with 1 hammer 4 axes each is 420; three less, obviously, with swords). Two of those detachments plus a main detachment of longer-ranged firepower to support them isn't a terrible core, and can spread out or focus its charge as needed.
Melissia wrote: What that means is that it's difficult to be a deathstar unless you're the best deathstar.
Have you tried massed assault? You can easily fit three death company with jump packs and mixed weaponry, and a sanguinary priest for 400-500 or so points (three squads with 1 hammer 4 axes each is 420; three less, obviously, with swords). Two of those detachments plus a main detachment of longer-ranged firepower to support them isn't a terrible core, and can spread out or focus its charge as needed.
I was rocking a dual-threat list early in the edition with a firebase sitting back, while the other half of the army was Lemartes, Sanguinor, a priest, and several DC squads. It worked against the less competitive lists, but as soon as I started seeing 'scripts, brims, stormravens, quantum shield walls, scions, etc, they just kinda tried to wait for the optimal timing, were forced to come in t3, and then got mowed down.
Against conscripts you really have no choice but to focus if you want to get rid of them for what thy're protecting. Thankfully it's trivial to charge them with a lot of units as they're such a large squad.
As far as stormravens go, actually you CAN charge them as they're flyers. Don't forget that. The enemy does have to keep them moving and that doesn't always give the enemy a chance to keep their flyer out of the way, unless they're in hover mode-- in which case they're eaiser to hit to begin with.
Scions I... yeah, scions fething hit like a truck and by the time you can kill them they've already done a lotof damage. Not sure.
Oh I know what to theoretically do against them (sans the scions) it's just that it tends to not work anyway. The DC don't hit hard enough to down a raven that they charge if they miraculously catch it, and it flies away with no penalties. The conscripts tanking a mass charge still take up enough board space that the surviving melee units can't get to the backlines before all the shelling brings them down. And that's assuming I pass the amount of charges I need to make to actually cripple the 'scripts. More often they'll have the back ranks left especially when using good wound allocation to knock some DC out of striking range.
I've pretty much switched back to "red shooty marines stealing some chapter tactic" for the time being. Hopefully the codex will bring us some more punch.
Bear in mind, the stormraven is T7 with 14 wounds and a 3+ save. So you'll want something like thunder hammers, power fists, and the like hitting it if you charge it.
Anything less and you'll be wounding on a 5+, where powerfists and thunder hammers wound on a 3+. Since there's no reason for a non-character to go with a fist when it could have a hammer, I'll do some math for the hammer.
With three attacks on the charge hitting on 4+ (remember, the -1 to hit only applies to shooting, so just this is only the standard -1 to hit for being a hammer), wounding on 3+, reducing save to 6+, and doing 1d6 damage, each thunder hammer death company would do on average three damage in the charge turn, requiring on average a full squad to kill it outright in one turn.
Obviously getting a squad of thunder hammers to it alive to hit it all in one turn is difficult, but any damage your shooting does to it before that would require less. Of course doing thunder hammers this makes these units less powerful against hordes.
This assumes one squad unsupported. A chaplain accompanying them increases their average to four and a third damage per turn, meaning you'd only need three or four thunder hammers to charge in one turn. Similar result for a librarian casting unleash rage, with the benefit of range at the risk of all psychic powers. Both used together to buff the thunder hammers would mean, two or three thunder hammers would be needed on average to take it down in one turn.
These are just averages of course, taken in a vacuum. I'm just saying... the right tool for the job. Hopefully once we get a codex fists and hammers will be reduced price and taking them will be much less intimidating...
During the games where I was using the dual-threat list, I was using DC squads with a sword and a thunder hammer out of every 5 models. As you say, the hammers (and fists) are prohibitively expensive on 1 wound dudes, so anything more than that in wargear and they just become giant priority targets. Getting 3 of those squads with a character aura to melee a stormraven that moves almost quadruple their speed is quite a task.
I appreciate that you're trying to speak politely and be helpful, but I am a very experienced player. (I don't bother going into my resume on forums unless someone specifically asks.) I understand the basics, and having them repeated to me as if they're new information is ...flustering? Not on any serious scale, but it's there. I just wanted to let you know I'm not a newbie.
Additionally, the thunder hammer is flat 3 damage, not a d6. Doesn't affect your calculations considering you used an average of 3 anyway.
niv-mizzet wrote: Additionally, the thunder hammer is flat 3 damage, not a d6. Doesn't affect your calculations considering you used an average of 3 anyway.
For some reason I was thinking 1d6, not 3. Given that I have the rules in front of me, I guess I was kinda distracted
And to be fair, I'm not just doing it for your sake, but for a lot of other people too.
niv-mizzet wrote: Additionally, the thunder hammer is flat 3 damage, not a d6. Doesn't affect your calculations considering you used an average of 3 anyway.
For some reason I was thinking 1d6, not 3. Given that I have the rules in front of me, I guess I was kinda distracted
And to be fair, I'm not just doing it for your sake, but for a lot of other people too.
I'm one of the people benefitting from this conversation, so thank you.
In the games I've played and watched it seemed that the player that was able to dictate the flow of the game by placement of infiltrating troops and using drop/terminators really had a leg up. Even on some of the blobbier armies such as IG and orks. I'm trying to craft my list around that idea with some early game infiltrators (scouts) and armor (razorback with DC or melta assault) on the board. I've got additional DC and assault marines, as well as drop pod carrying tacticals or devastators. It all feels very "Blood Angels" to me.
I just haven't played in forever and the games have been a learning experience to say the least. I also am using models I own, so some things haven't made the table yet like Stormravens and SG.
The main problem is that is really hard to lock down units in melee in this edition. You need to kill what you charge, or suffer the wrath of the rest of the army next turn without having accomplished your goal.
I think that melee needs to be used differently in this edition. A glorious charge into the heart of the enemy only works if you have units with Berserker levels of damage output. Charging units on the flanks is much safer as there is less mutual support available to shoot you if your target withdraws from combat. Assaulting with multiple units also works as then several units are either stuck in combat or lose a turn's shooting as they withdraw. This requires a lot more co-ordination. Then there are opportunistic assaults which you do finish off a mauled unit or to take a heavy weapons unit out of action for a crucial turn, even if it potentially costs you the attacking unit. Lastly there are horde units like big mobz of boyz which can drown opponents in buckets of dice and con't really care about retaliation as they can afford to lose half a dozen models without even blinking.
Melee works differently in 8th and using it in the same way we did in 7th edition is going to give disappointing results. It takes time to adjust to the new rules but it will happen. Basically we need to remember that assault is no longer a surefire way of locking down units in a meat-grinder of attrition.
Melissia wrote:
Obviously getting a squad of thunder hammers to it alive to hit it all in one turn is difficult, but any damage your shooting does to it before that would require less. Of course doing thunder hammers this makes these units less powerful against hordes.
A 5 model DC unit with 5 thunderhammers and JP is 200 pts. If you deepstrike, and dont make the 9" charge you do nothing. If you make it the flyer is in serious trouble. You cannot reroll one die for the charge anymore, you must reroll both now. This reduces your chance to make the charge.
A 5 model company veteran unit with combiplasma and powerswords are 190 pts. They deepstrike, get 10 shots at the flier, hitting on 4+. Then they can charge, if they make it they get another 11 attacks, hitting on 3+. They can at least do damage with plasma, if they fail the charge. They are better against hordes, four shots per model.
A sanguinary priest with the same gear can revive killed models, if you decide to supercharge, increasing plasma damage output significantly, but you will blow up on 1 or 2 against hard to hit flyers.
Melee works differently in 8th and using it in the same way we did in 7th edition is going to give disappointing results. It takes time to adjust to the new rules but it will happen. Basically we need to remember that assault is no longer a surefire way of locking down units in a meat-grinder of attrition.
You need orc level numbers of models, with orc level numbers of attacks to make melee successful. Not a viable option for BA. Its possible, but it costs a lot of points.
You need orc level numbers of models, with orc level numbers of attacks to make melee successful. Not a viable option for BA. Its possible, but it costs a lot of points.
That depends entirely on your target. If you are simply thinking of a full frontal assault then you are probably right. If you are thinking about attack the flanks, bullying weaker units or forcing someone off an objective then melee is still viable for us.
We need to stop thinking of melee as the fastest and most efficient way to crush an entire army because you are right, it certainly is not that. Rather it is a tool in the box for attacking the enemy under specific conditions.
I have erased melee from my play. Maybe the BA codex will change that, but right now, its not worth it. To many problems to solve. First you need to get close, then you need to make the charge. If you manage that a smart opponent will remove casualties from the front. On his next turn he will fallback, or maybe he doesnt even have to, because there is no CC anymore, due to losses. Another problem is LOS. Only 1 model needs to be visible to enemy units, and your entire unit can be attacked. You will have a hard time hiding 15 models. If you take less models your chances of doing damage in melee drops.
You need orc level numbers of models, with orc level numbers of attacks to make melee successful. Not a viable option for BA. Its possible, but it costs a lot of points.
That depends entirely on your target. If you are simply thinking of a full frontal assault then you are probably right. If you are thinking about attack the flanks, bullying weaker units or forcing someone off an objective then melee is still viable for us.
We need to stop thinking of melee as the fastest and most efficient way to crush an entire army because you are right, it certainly is not that. Rather it is a tool in the box for attacking the enemy under specific conditions.
I think the overall point they are making is that they want to play a melee army, and it's not really viable. You can include melee in your balanced list, or as a token force in a heavy shooty list, but a full assault army, I think not. I actually played against a full assault Nids list today. It was very easy to out maneuver, and piecemeal shoot apart, and use my token melee force to clean up.
" You cannot reroll one die for the charge anymore, you must reroll both now."
I think you still can with command rerolls since it specifically says one die. But Orks and Black Templars have to do both. Doesn't really change much, though.
I think you still can with command rerolls since it specifically says one die. But Orks and Black Templars have to do both. Doesn't really change much, though.
You are right. I misunderstood the update 1.1 of the rulebook. So, you still can reroll a single die from the charge. If one die is a 5+ your chance is at least 50% making it.
brokbrok wrote: Full disclosure, I don't know anything cause I haven't had a chance to play yet, but shouldn't melee work just fine in this addition if you have a properly balanced force? Of course you shouldn't shoot something you're about to charge if it's going to lose you the charge, but you have the option to shoot a different target in this addition so your guns aren't wasted.
There are a number of factors working against melee this edition.
-Overwatch is not only still here, but can be attempted by every unit, even vehicles, old blast weapons etc, and they can overwatch every unit that charges until one makes it in. It's all fun and games until a quad las predator hits multiple times on overwatch against your furioso dread.
-Units that don't like the combat can waltz right on outta there. This means against any target you want to hit, you get one turn of swings. You no longer get to stick in and fight it out unless your opponent is happy to let you, which is probably bad news for your dudes. In older editions you could expect combat BAMF's like Dante to get their swings twice if they made it in. Now just once, and getting into combat and then being left there most likely put you in a more compromising position than you'd like.
-Screening blob units are very powerful right now, due to an extreme lack of weapons and units that can get them out of the way efficiently. You would think "flamers and blasts" naturally, until you play against say, conscripts, and have a flamer roast one dude and a rapid fire battle cannon drop like 3. And since you can't get them out of the way, melee guys either waste themselves jumping into the screen, or chill until an unacceptably late time in the game when you've finally got them out of the way. At that point, the damage has been done, and your melee force is a day late and dollar short, assuming they're even still alive.
-Cover is harder to get and does less. Melee used to be a relevant solution to knocking out weak guys who had obnoxious cover saves, assuming you weren't playing one of the several armies that could ignore it. Now people rarely rely on those types of units, so via supply and demand, the bully units that always wanted to go after them are mostly out of a job. In addition, cover being more difficult to grab hurts melee units trying to make it to ranged units, but doesn't hurt ranged units who are facing down melee units.
-A minor point, but the unit that you got to does still get to smack you back, sometimes before you swing depending on the CP situation or their abilities. This is another thorn in the side of the old "bully" units, as they tend to be just a little stronger than their targets, and after being whittled, can very realistically lose in melee.
-Any gun that used to be twin-linked is now deadlier. And depending on the melee unit in question, any amount of AP is now deadlier.
-It's easier to make a good shooting formation get buffs from characters than it is to get a melee group to access similar buffs while also trying to pile in and swing with as much as possible.
Because of the way melee works now, it's not really that inaccurate to view it as a shooting phase where all your "guns" have 1" range. A marine with a chainsword for example is throwing 2 s4 ap- swings, which is the exact same damage output as a bolter at 12".
The end result of the current rule set is that melee units that do not hit like trucks are very...questionable in their usefulness. The role of "pestering and tying up enemy units" hardly exists anymore, so chaff melee units like assault marines are having existential crises. And with shooting power rising, even good melee units are forced to answer a very plain question. Can you reliably get to the enemy suffering no more than 1 shooting phase and 1 overwatch, and then will you kill what you hit? If the answer is no, on the shelf it goes.
Dear Niv your analysis is outstanding and really explains very well why 8th edition CaC still sucks unless you have god-like troops such as berserkers who can literally wipe out an entire unit.
Even if one plays let's say 2 units of DC and lemartes you still only have 30% chance to make it into combat and if you fail you are starring at a lot of points who ll be utterly smashed and even if you charge we dont deal enough damage to wipe out the enemy unit. Company veterans with combi-plasma and either power sword or stormshield are so much better!
Since I removed all my CaC units I started to win a couple of matches (vs death guard and vs necron). A razorback with TL assault cannon and 5 assault marines outclass both DC and SG by a mile and the above mentioned company vetetans are, according to me, the best unit we have right now in our index.
Then you're not making the best use of your list, and IMO barring your local meta being different from the one here locally you're going to lose a lot.
Marines pay for being good at shooting and being good at assault. Use your full potential, or you will always be inefficient.
Given support: Three devastator squads can't take down a conscript squad in one turn of shooting. Three supported assault squads can't do it in one turn of assault. But three supported tactical squads can very much do it in one turn of rapid fire shooting and a charge.
Think about that. Most people dismiss the tactical squad, yet of the three basic squads it's the most efficient way to deal large numbers of wounds. This may not be true for BA-- perhaps death company is for BA, after all DC are a unique thing. Haven't really done the math for the various ways you can kit out BA, after all. But you should always know to yourself that if all you're doing it shooting, you're wasting points, even if you're slapping down an army of devastators.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact let's see... idle musing on my part so I'm gonna put this in spoilers.
Spoiler:
Roughly equivalent in points (10 points less) than the 3 flamer/combiflamer tacticals + lieutenant + captain + rhino combo I came up with...
Vanguard detachment, chaplain w/croz and bp, 3 death company w/PSword/Boltgun each, 2 Rhinos.
Shooting: Assuming Rhinos forgo shooting in order to pop smoke the turn before, thus making sure at least one survives.
Total average around 40 wounds vs conscripts. Not quite as efficient as fully supported tacticals due to lack of flamer equivalents (3.5 auto-hits per flamer rerolling 1s to-wound is superior to a boltgun in damage), but still devastating. Spend 84 points to get power axes and a sanguinary priest in there and you wipe them out in one turn due to upgrading to S6 while still ignoring armor (unlike power mauls, the other way to get to S6).
I will grant this is very much an in-the-vacuum mathhammer. Just demonstrating the point of making good use of our entire statline, not just part of it.
Compare that to an equal number of points of devastators. 5 dev squads with 4 hbs each, all firing from max distance-- 22.222 unsaved wounds. Granted, this is unfair; the heavy bolter is really not meant to take down T3 models but rather T4 ones. But barring the ML or the grav cannon-- both of which also come with a substantial increase in price-- it's the most efficient one devs get. It's weight of hits that really wears down hordes. Mind you this is pulled from various mathhammers I did vs conscripts because of the long-ass freaking debate with people whining about conscripts, but them's the breaks.
... which is to say, unlike khornate berserkers, blood angels need to rely on shooting to assist their melee, and melee to assist their shooting. They can do a startling level of damage if they don't forget that they're still generalists, far more than they'd be able to do if they rushed forward focusing on assault or stayed back focusing on shooting. Use every part of your statline and you'll do a lot better.
niv-mizzet wrote: Because of the way melee works now, it's not really that inaccurate to view it as a shooting phase where all your "guns" have 1" range. A marine with a chainsword for example is throwing 2 s4 ap- swings, which is the exact same damage output as a bolter at 12".
Well put, I think this is something that GW has misunderstood when setting the pts cost for BA melee options. Melee units/weapons are discounted in terms of the potential damage output once you get close, but for BA they are generally not discounted enough to account for the disadvantages of extremely short ranged weapons. If forcing enemy units into melee had more intrinsic value then this would be fine, but your post details why this isn't the case.
Only if they don't make use of their entire statline.
Like I demonstrated, if you DO use the entire statline you are capable of doing things other lists aren't.
But that would require playing like Space Marines instead of wanting to play like orks or eldar.
Not in practice. Your opponent has a lot to say about this issue. As I said, marines have ALWAYS had this problem, and they've really tended towards low or middle tier because of it.
That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying it that it's trivial to exploit the dual nature of marines. Specialist lists make you fight their melee to keep their shooters shooting. This usually works out historically because the throw weight of marine lists is usually quite poor.
BA were better than marines in 5th because we could better specialize in that edition. BA were worse in 6th/7th because we had not strong formations or deathstars, which were other ways to get around the weakness of being a generalist.
The intercessor is actually a tiny step in the right direction, but they still fail.
Martel732 wrote: What I'm saying it that it's trivial to exploit the dual nature of marines.
It's just as easy to exploit the weaknesses of specialist lists. You choose not to because of your defeatist attitude and instead ask the world to be given of you. FFS, before 8th edition finally gave Sisters a much needed buff, Sisters were far below Marines, yet the Sisters tactica was still focused on how to use what we have to try to win and improve our chances of winning. Listening to you, you'd think Marines never have ever had a good chance of winning, which is redonkulous.
Sisters were better than BA in 6/7th. Don't believe otherwise. They'd have been better than the other marines too without gimmicks.
What part of low/middle tier did you not get? That's plenty of winning power. Just not enough to get through the average tournament. I saw basically no vanilla marine lists doing well in 5th. GW "fixed" this with some of the worst methods available.
BA were solid garbage tier in 6th/7th. That's because the good marine units in 7th weren't marines, and BA didn't get them. BA had to try to win with actual marines, which was laughable in 6th/7th. That's where the defeatism comes from. Looks like little has changed, really except the floor is not as low as it was. Which helps, but there are no real good options in the current meta for BA. Either IG or Mechdar will roll your BA list. You can't compete with both. I'm not completely convinced that BA can hang with IG even with a tailored list, but I'm assuming here they can.
He's not wrong. I did a LOT of tourney testing and play in 7th. Properly built sisters were terrifying, especially when you could have the flesh tearers drop pod rental service throw down your rending heavy flamers and ignore cover meltas that, unlike marines, didn't bother throwing points at stats that wouldn't matter, so you could afford a very decent size army to support them.
Being the same effective durability against all the s6 spam, more durable against ap3, and having the same firepower, with the option to go more focused and be more efficient with that firepower, all for a points decrease and having their melee go from awful to slightly more awful made them better than rank and file marines at event tables. Just another occurrence of specializing defeating generalizing. The only reason you didn't see more of them is, despite the myths, every tourney player ever does NOT have spare mountains of cash for the game just to go try and win a few hundred bucks at an event or two. (Which could still be wrecked by bad matchup/dice luck.) Well two reasons actually. The second being: If you are willing to drop some bills meta-chasing, why would you not just go for the top table stuff like riptide trios and a bunch of wolves and bikers?
Of course i'm wrong. I really haven't played ba since the 90s and i really don't carefully consider lists or game turns. I'm just looking for something to blame my losses on. That's totally it. This thread is full of ba players just laying the wood to ig players and i'm just not willing to adapt. Just like i didn't try 15+ different lists last edition trying to adapt to eldar/tau/demons. I need to get with the program and netlist all those top ba lists.
So anyway, I like the idea of DC with bolt guns instead of doing that tactical squad math you mentioned earlier.
Company vets and vanguard vets are so much better than assault marines and cost basically the same in this edition.
As for conscription wrapping, I agree that we have to find a way to generalize. That's just what BA are going to be pushed to. If you want to specialize there are better armies you can do with minimal paint swapping.
I think the issue is the focus on alpha striking. If you listen to the FLG podcast on the BAO meta. The winner talks about his focus on surviving the first turn. There's probably something in the idea of bringing enough dakka to severely hurt the enemy bubble wrapping so you can get the deep strikes in subsequent turns and lay down the hurt. That's all the guy did with his list, he would create openings and then drop a plasma squad in to take out valuable targets. BA are totally capable of that, with the addition of tying up the shooting of units as well. Of course if you try and alpha strike it's going to backfire, this would be a terribly boring edition if alpha strike melee was reliable.
I definitely think 1-2 units depstriking late in the game is more viable than 5+ on turn 1, as good lists are going to have some kind of bubble wrap. Playing maelstrom objectives also helps a lot, since it forces people to move up and leave things open to deepstrike.
brokbrok wrote: So anyway, I like the idea of DC with bolt guns instead of doing that tactical squad math you mentioned earlier.
Every time I do the math, Death Company with boltguns and power weapons (either swords or axes for most applicability, but a single TH is a good choice for anti-tank power even at the current price) shows itself to be an amazingly versatile unit (the TH marine can be the one throwing the grenade, so it doesn't reduce your shooting too much anyway!)
Boltguns cost zero points after all, but allow a five-man DC squad to have the same bolter firepower as a tactical squad. The cheap power weapons along with the DC special rules then allow them to function as a superb assault squad, especially after a good shooting phase. Add in a Rhino (one per two squads), Razor (with the ability to carry an HQ as well) or jump packs, and they become mobile enough to matter.
As another note, I'd actually pick rhinos over jump packs, for three reasons; first is it makes it easier for your force to go first, second is SM vehicles can pop smoke, making them survivable on the way over to the enemy, and third is the rhino can then charge first in order to absorb overwatch, allowing for no-risk assaults. Rhinos, especially on the turn they pop smoke, are actually extremely durable. Sure they got a lot more costly, but they're worth every point.
But if you do go for jump packs, one thing you might consider is some barebones jump ASM squads or stormraven-carried assault dreadnoughts to absorb overwatch for your death company. Because you want to make sure your DC make it to combat unharmed, or you're wasting points on those power weapons.
brokbrok wrote: So anyway, I like the idea of DC with bolt guns instead of doing that tactical squad math you mentioned earlier.
Every time I do the math, Death Company with boltguns and power weapons (either swords or axes for most applicability, but a single TH is a good choice for anti-tank power even at the current price) shows itself to be an amazingly versatile unit (the TH marine can be the one throwing the grenade, so it doesn't reduce your shooting too much anyway!)
Boltguns cost zero points after all, but allow a five-man DC squad to have the same bolter firepower as a tactical squad. The cheap power weapons along with the DC special rules then allow them to function as a superb assault squad, especially after a good shooting phase. Add in a Rhino (one per two squads), Razor (with the ability to carry an HQ as well) or jump packs, and they become mobile enough to matter.
As another note, I'd actually pick rhinos over jump packs, for three reasons; first is it makes it easier for your force to go first, second is SM vehicles can pop smoke, making them survivable on the way over to the enemy, and third is the rhino can then charge first in order to absorb overwatch, allowing for no-risk assaults. Rhinos, especially on the turn they pop smoke, are actually extremely durable. Sure they got a lot more costly, but they're worth every point.
But if you do go for jump packs, one thing you might consider is some barebones jump ASM squads or stormraven-carried assault dreadnoughts to absorb overwatch for your death company. Because you want to make sure your DC make it to combat unharmed, or you're wasting points on those power weapons.
I agree, it does seem more and more pointless to run pistols over boltguns on DC now, although my biggest grip is all my DC are modeled with BP/CCW already and the models don't come in such a way short of hacking them them up to make them wysiwyg.
So on the rhino over JP front, reason number 1 is going to be somewhat less a factor after the announcement today, which basically just adopts the +1 to go first rules that all the tournaments are. agreed on 2, just have to hold out hope that we get rules or maybe a psychic power to help JP marines survivability. Agreed on 3, but again, we've seen rules/gear/traits, such as the ravenguard stuff, that doesn't allow overwatch, so maybe we get something like that.
Unfortunately, the last time I remember BA being even remotely viable as a jump pack army was when DC had 5+ FnP, furious charge was +1 str +1I, and even then it wasn't top tier, and razor spam was still better.
The reason I started playing BA in the first place was because I love JPs and they were the JP army, and I feel like BAJP armies need some major overhaul/help to them become relevant. I don't really have any faith in GW as they haven't been able to write fair/balanced/decent rules, like ever, so I assume we'll get more of the same. This might come from the fact that my main army is Deathwing and they've been gak on in almost every edition since i started in 2nd edition really.
jcd386 wrote: I definitely think 1-2 units depstriking late in the game is more viable than 5+ on turn 1, as good lists are going to have some kind of bubble wrap. Playing maelstrom objectives also helps a lot, since it forces people to move up and leave things open to deepstrike.
If you don't deep strike by turn 3 in matched play you're auto dead, no leaving peeps off the table for last turn objective grabbing anymore. But holding off for a turn 3 drop in some situations can be useful yes.
bobafett012 wrote: So on the rhino over JP front, reason number 1 is going to be somewhat less a factor after the announcement today, which basically just adopts the +1 to go first rules that all the tournaments are.
Link to said announcement? Haven't seen it and couldn't find it on a quick scan of news and blogs.
bobafett012 wrote: The reason I started playing BA in the first place was because I love JPs and they were the JP army
They still are the JP army. Unfortunately BA are an index still and not a codex, so their JP army isn't as good as it should be.
bobafett012 wrote: So on the rhino over JP front, reason number 1 is going to be somewhat less a factor after the announcement today, which basically just adopts the +1 to go first rules that all the tournaments are.
Link to said announcement? Haven't seen it and couldn't find it on a quick scan of news and blogs.
bobafett012 wrote: The reason I started playing BA in the first place was because I love JPs and they were the JP army
They still are the JP army. Unfortunately BA are an index still and not a codex, so their JP army isn't as good as it should be.
Give everyone objective secured option, flyer units don't hold objectives at all, and whoever finishes first just gets +1 to the roll off, but people can still seize the initiative.
Been playing a couple games a week since 8th was released. Started in an escalation league at 500 that went to 2,000 at the local GW and now I've been playing in the Konor Campaign at 2,000 points. Here's what I've been running at 2,000:
I'm redoing my army for 8th Edition so this isn't entirely optimized. Ideally I would want another Troops unit in here for the extra 3 Command Points. I run Mephiston, Corbulo, the Assault Squad, and the Death Company Dread in the Storm Raven. Assault Squad definitely isn't optimal compared to Death Company or Vanguard Vets, but with Meph giving the unit a 4+ invulnerable, Corbulo giving everyone +1 Strength and +1 attack on a roll of 6 and resurrecting Assault Marines or healing Meph with a 4+ rerollable, they are a very tough nut to crack.
Meph is an absolute beast. He's killed a Knight, a couple Gorkanuts, Berzerkers, Deff Dreads, War Bosses, and a ton of other stuff. He's a must include for me. I typically fly the Raven in close on turn 1 and unload the payload turn 2. Death Company typically Deep Strike at the end of turn 2 or turn 3 to mop up. I don't normally try and assault out of Deep Strike. Both Lemmy and the DC never both make the charge which sucks, so I deploy out of LOS or in an area where everything is crowded. Death Company took a bit of a hit with Feel No Pain dropping to a 6+, but they still draw a TON of fire and do the job with Lemmy around. I have a good amount of firepower to deal with most stuff. I've only had one bad loss to a Ynnari tournament list getting tabled in turn 3 (Dark Reapers w/ Soulburst are gross and 1 shotted my Raven and Dread turn 1), but otherwise all the games I've played in have been wins or super close at the end. I've been pretty happy with how this has been working out.
I'm working on another version of this list where I add Primaris Marines. Going to add a Captain, a Lieutenant, Intercessors, Hellblasters, and Reivers. I'll post that list once I get all the models done and I give it a try. This thread is pretty thin compared to some of the other tactics threads so I thought I'd jump in and add my 2 cents. I'm curious what has been working for other people.
bobafett012 wrote: So on the rhino over JP front, reason number 1 is going to be somewhat less a factor after the announcement today, which basically just adopts the +1 to go first rules that all the tournaments are.
Link to said announcement? Haven't seen it and couldn't find it on a quick scan of news and blogs.
Coyote got it. Warhammer community site releases a lot of info almost everyday, most of the blogs and such just put up the stuff they release.
Melissia wrote: They still are the JP army. Unfortunately BA are an index still and not a codex, so their JP army isn't as good as it should be.
Not really, every SM army can do the exact same thing with detachments at this point, many of which can even do it better.... All the other editions saw regular assault squads being unlocked as troops, which very few, if any, other chapters could do. On top of that, since we actually had to use a force org that required troops choices, it made them a decent investment to take, plus they weren't terrible either.. We currently have zero reason to run regular assault squads, they basically got nerfed fairly heavily. We used to get 3 attacks per model on the charge with them, now we're down to 2 and that's pretty devestating considering DC and vanguard have more attacks, far better weapon options for close to the same cost, and that CC as a whole is, again for another edition, not great. Objective secured will be worthless for them because they just get shot to pieces out of CC and aren't really worth a damn in CC.
So yeah, you can hope the codex will fix the myriad of issues we have with our army currently, which are mostly the same issues we had in 7th edition, 6th edition, and part of 5th edition. I didn't play BA before that so I can't speak prior, I played deathwing.
jcd386 wrote: I definitely think 1-2 units depstriking late in the game is more viable than 5+ on turn 1, as good lists are going to have some kind of bubble wrap. Playing maelstrom objectives also helps a lot, since it forces people to move up and leave things open to deepstrike.
If you don't deep strike by turn 3 in matched play you're auto dead, no leaving peeps off the table for last turn objective grabbing anymore. But holding off for a turn 3 drop in some situations can be useful yes.
Yeah, i guess i consider turn 2 or 3 to be pretty late in the game, lol.
I think for BA a unit of 10 or so DC and Lemartes in some kind of mech list can be very effective.
Alright folks I'm on holiday and this afternoon I'm going to try to save the planet of Konor from a robot invasion (necrons).
We're going to play at 100 (he has a 101 list so mine is 101 aswel) power level and here is what I'm going to bring:
Outrider detachment
Captain, JP, relic blade and combiplasma
3x assault squads each with 2x plasmagun, sergent with plasma pistol and power axe
3x razorback with TL assault cannon
Vanguard Detachment
Lemartes
2 squads of DC (5 each) with boltgun, JP, 1x PF and 4x power axes
2 squads of Company veterans with JP, combi-plasma, ss
2 x predators, auto-cannon, lascannon sponsons
Lemartes will be my warlord and I will give him the +1 attack trait so that he ll make 7 attacks on the charge! (if he manages to reach them lol)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm back from the game and I m quite disappointed because I've been utterly destroyed by the necron player. At the end of the game I had 1 predator with a single wound left and a razorback with 6 wounds, while he still had 2x 10 man immortal squad a spider and both his HQ's.
My impressions after 10 games are the following:
assault squads are too weak even with the special weapons, what shall I replace them with?
DC never pay their points back. They only killed a single spider and then died.
LEMARTES is a beast he destroyed the necron flyer all by himself but what s the point of taking him if I'm benching the DC?
Company veterans with combi-plasma and ss are the real MVP, they obliterated a full squad of immortals in cover and then took off some wounds from the monolith.
I didn't bring the stormraven this game but I think that at least 1 is a must since she brings a lot of dakka.
The predators are really good but the quantum shielding makes you cry xD.
Does anyone of you tried out the land raider? Was thinking about using the classic one in my next game.
I will also replace my DC with vanguard veterans, what is the best load out for CC weapons? I was thinking claws th and SS, relic blade and ss on the sergent.
I'd replace the assault squads with vanguard vets then run them the same way you did before. More attacks, sparklier helmets, minimal points shuffle.
You did great with the company vets, I kit them out like they were blood angel sternguards. Assault squads are really just a chaff unit now that you can minimal kit and use for board control.
I don't think you should drop the DC, just reprioritize them to being bullies and anti horde. Anything above a t4 youd want to send the company vets and tank guns after.
I'd be interested to hear if you have land raider success. I stopped bringing termies in 5th cause I'm an above average 1 roller.
I'd be interested to hear if you have land raider success. I stopped bringing termies in 5th cause I'm an above average 1 roller.
Lol I hear you, I play Deathwing too, although the 2 wounds plus CPs have helped tremendously with those errant 1's. I see people using CPs to try and make their 5++ saves, but thats crazy, use the re-rolls on the 1's when you just need 2+'s, almost guaranteed, plus Shooty terms are MUCH better now with storm bolters that put out 4 shots a piece at 12" and assault cannons that put out 6 shots. Though with BA, Corbulo, maybe a terminator ancient or chaplain and a squad of 3-4 LCs and 1-2 TH/SS seems like they might be pretty good. I wonder though if terms would be better in the stormraven instead to give them more mobility and get them where you need them faster.
Stormraven termies is so metal. (ʘ言ʘ╬) It's no deep striking land raider, but if we make enough sacrifices to the emperor we'll get that back.
Any excuse to bring Corbulo is fantastic. I didn't realize he can re-roll his healing every turn until someone pointed it out a few posts back. Talk about ridiculous staying power.
brokbrok wrote: Stormraven termies is so metal. (ʘ言ʘ╬) It's no deep striking land raider, but if we make enough sacrifices to the emperor we'll get that back.
Any excuse to bring Corbulo is fantastic. I didn't realize he can re-roll his healing every turn until someone pointed it out a few posts back. Talk about ridiculous staying power.
On top of extra attacks for every 6 to hit off your terms, so if you run 3-4 LC's and a couple TH's, your looking at 14ish attacks and probably an extra 2-3 and with a chaplain your re-rolling all those hits. It'd all be pretty expensive though, in the 700's.
brokbrok wrote: Stormraven termies is so metal. (ʘ言ʘ╬) It's no deep striking land raider, but if we make enough sacrifices to the emperor we'll get that back.
Any excuse to bring Corbulo is fantastic. I didn't realize he can re-roll his healing every turn until someone pointed it out a few posts back. Talk about ridiculous staying power.
You have to pay for those he ressurrects, though. That's not so hot.
brokbrok wrote: Stormraven termies is so metal. (ʘ言ʘ╬) It's no deep striking land raider, but if we make enough sacrifices to the emperor we'll get that back.
Any excuse to bring Corbulo is fantastic. I didn't realize he can re-roll his healing every turn until someone pointed it out a few posts back. Talk about ridiculous staying power.
You have to pay for those he ressurrects, though. That's not so hot.
you absolutely do not. only when creating NEW units do you have to pay for them. Apothecaries only resurrect guys you've already paid for or add wounds back onto wounded models. all 3 questions about making new units, adding to old units, and transforming one model into another were put in the 40k rulebook FAQ.
Martel732 wrote: So Nids don't pay to add termagants to old units?
If you're "replace up to ten models lost earlier in the battle in an existing units of Termagants," then no, those are free.
If you're adding a new unit of up to ten gants, then you pay for those.
Really unit summoning is just a different wording for Reserve mechanics. Summoning daemons is mechanically the same as setting up terminators in the teleportarium.
p5freak wrote: Couple of smites with the psyker boosting strategem in the SM codex and your termi gang dies very quick.
5 Termies and Corbs leaves one transport slot free for a Librarian to help stop psychic trickery like this and cast Unleash Rage on the the Termies. Mephiston would make for an even bigger beatstick!
5 Termies and Corbs leaves one transport slot free for a Librarian to help stop psychic trickery like this and cast Unleash Rage on the the Termies. Mephiston would make for an even bigger beatstick!
That would be possible, but the psyker boosting stratagem adds 2 to my roll. Your librarian can only counter one. Mephiston could counter two. I need three psykers, they can cast six psyker spells.
Do blood angels get access to the different hellblaster load outs and as a result the cheaper rapid firing hellblasters? As they come in at 165 in the codex marines vs 190 in the index?
fatbudda319 wrote: Do blood angels get access to the different hellblaster load outs and as a result the cheaper rapid firing hellblasters? As they come in at 165 in the codex marines vs 190 in the index?
I think Games Workshop said yes to this (but I wouldn't bother buying the codex for BA since all the relevant units will be in BA).
5 Termies and Corbs leaves one transport slot free for a Librarian to help stop psychic trickery like this and cast Unleash Rage on the the Termies. Mephiston would make for an even bigger beatstick!
That would be possible, but the psyker boosting stratagem adds 2 to my roll. Your librarian can only counter one. Mephiston could counter two. I need three psykers, they can cast six psyker spells.
Sure but how many SM armies have the 3 librarians needed to use the strat? Not very many. So on the off chance you run into it, you might have to use different tactics. Otherwise it is not really worth worrying about.
fatbudda319 wrote: Do blood angels get access to the different hellblaster load outs and as a result the cheaper rapid firing hellblasters? As they come in at 165 in the codex marines vs 190 in the index?
I think Games Workshop said yes to this (but I wouldn't bother buying the codex for BA since all the relevant units will be in BA).
Yes they do. I believe the new Hellblaster boxes come with a sheet including points for matched play for use by non-codex Chapters. Pretty sure there will be a scan of it up on the web by the end of the weekend.
Sure but how many SM armies have the 3 librarians needed to use the strat? Not very many. So on the off chance you run into it, you might have to use different tactics. Otherwise it is not really worth worrying about.
I was thinking about using it. Either with JP, or put them in a RB, with company veterans as bodyguards.
With all the assault buffs we see so many different codex and chaos armies getting, it's hard to imagine what they're going to give Blood Angels to make them be amazing and on par with the World Eaters, while trying to keep their rage in check so they can still live in polite society. I think I got it.
Army wide, I want that ability that Wulfen have where they attack back when they die. Death frenzy?
That way we're still codex marines, we don't have overpowered assault but can still buff up with ICs, but we are unquestionably good at hand to hand. When we get charged by khorne berserkers, yes we die, yes they're still great, but we make them pay for every casualty. This also wouldn't be overpowered cause non assault armies can fall back and shoot. like they would be doing anyway.
I think this is perfectly fluffy, strong, and rewarding. I know it won't happen, but gosh I want it and can't think of anything better.
With all the assault buffs we see so many different codex and chaos armies getting, it's hard to imagine what they're going to give Blood Angels to make them be amazing and on par with the World Eaters, while trying to keep their rage in check so they can still live in polite society. I think I got it.
Army wide, I want that ability that Wulfen have where they attack back when they die. Death frenzy?
That way we're still codex marines, we don't have overpowered assault but can still buff up with ICs, but we are unquestionably good at hand to hand. When we get charged by khorne berserkers, yes we die, yes they're still great, but we make them pay for every casualty. This also wouldn't be overpowered cause non assault armies can fall back and shoot. like they would be doing anyway.
I think this is perfectly fluffy, strong, and rewarding. I know it won't happen, but gosh I want it and can't think of anything better.
I personally don't want our special ability to rely on the death of my marines. Maybe that works for DC, but I'd rather not have that be what makes my army special. I'd much rather have some sort of +S or + A or advance/charge rule. Maybe something for JP.
I'd prefer the DC retain the bonus to attack on the charge and the 6+ ignore wound roll and then give an army wide rule that allows charging after advancing if a model is equipped with a Jump Pack.
Let us get in and chop while making the best use of our aura abilities.
IDK, that kinda screws over assault terminator BA armies, and they're a thing that I really like. I know a lot of people have no memory, knowledge of the lore, or good taste, and basically say BA should never use termies, but they are in fact a thing associated with BA.
(no sirree, I'm not tired of having random non-BA players tell me "you're not playing a real BA army" all the time after they see my BA terminator force, making me bitter and annoyed at the judgmental nonsense, not at all)
Melissia wrote: IDK, that kinda screws over assault terminator BA armies, and they're a thing that I really like. I know a lot of people have no memory, knowledge of the lore, or good taste, and basically say BA should never use termies, but they are in fact a thing associated with BA.
(no sirree, I'm not tired of having random non-BA players tell me "you're not playing a real BA army" all the time after they see my BA terminator force, making me bitter and annoyed at the judgmental nonsense, not at all)
Oh, don't fret, I hated the abomination that was the 5th edition BA codex. The Archangels were and always have been a predominantly Terminator armored force.
I have the same bitterness when fielding my battle company and people asking me why I have tactical marines instead of running all assault squads.
Because that's not exclusively what Blood Angels are about, they're a codex adherent chapter. I like tactical marines, too, to be clear.
I like the thought of a bonus similar to what Blood Angels get in 30k as an alternative option. When Rolling to wound in the Fight phase, Blood Angels models require 1 less to wound than normal on their to-wound roll. So if your model would wound on a 4+, it instead wounds on a 3+. If it requires a 5+ to wound, you instead wound on a 4+, etc. This of course does not apply to wounding on a 2+, and you still calculate the to wound as normal, then modify it.
In my mind this represents the Blood Angels martial prowess.and ability to strike hard and true. I think it could be a nice bonus, though I also like the advance and charge option (perhaps as a strategem).
We'll see. Hopefully it'll be something useful and fun.
Buy some extra jump packs. Trade for some sheathed swords. Then buy the BA tactical marines kit, and equip them with all boltguns save for the sarge who'd get the drawn power sword.
Paint them all up as death company equipped with boltgun and power sword.
Not sure if I'll go through with it, but it'd be a nice addition to my force. Then again, so would a squad of tacticals. So who knows? But certainly while htere's some nice sculpts in the DC box, the BA tactical box is such a good bargain in comparison... though I'd really be missing the thunder hammer-carrying DC sculpt.
The last two posts really hit it home for me. My version of Blood Angels, going back to the beginning of my hobby time, was strong tactical squads backed by fearsome hand-to-hand in the form of DC and characters. I love tacs, and definitely love termies. That being said, my first project of 8th has been getting some assault marines painted. Next up will be some more tacticals. I want to have a strong anvil for my hammer...
Yes yes yes, we get it, you hate everything martel.
brother_b wrote: The last two posts really hit it home for me. My version of Blood Angels, going back to the beginning of my hobby time, was strong tactical squads backed by fearsome hand-to-hand in the form of DC and characters. I love tacs, and definitely love termies. That being said, my first project of 8th has been getting some assault marines painted. Next up will be some more tacticals. I want to have a strong anvil for my hammer...
It's a good choice. Tacticals doing a rapid fire + charge are deceptively powerful for their points, and being able to ObSec is going to be important once those rules circulate through the meta.
I dont like termis either. They are slow, very expensive, their ranged attack capabilities are poor, they are ok in melee, but they first need to get there. Which means they also need transportation. I can do almost the same damage they can do in melee with plasmaguns, from a distance, and without a transport.
They... don't necessarily need a transport-- certainly they need it less than a five-man combiplasma sternguard squad, which pretty much demands a razorback or rhino in order to use it properly since the loss of cheap drop pods. If you don't give htem that, they'll get pounded by ranged fire on the way to being able to hit anything and thus take losses or even lose the entire squad before they do damage; if you do, they're just as expensive as terminators anyway.
Actually, I think a squad of tactical termies shooting and then assaulting will almost always do more damage to a vehicle than the combiplasma squad. I'll have to mathhammer it sometime.
Termis are mostly melee units. You can teleport them on the battlefield, but then you need to make that 9" charge. If you fail one assault cannon and four stormbolters wont do much damage. Assault termis will do 0 damage when they dont make the 9" charge. Thats why they need a transport, to get them closer, to make the charge easier. 220 or 260 pts is to much for a unit which heavily depends on getting into CC, its much harder without a transport. Maybe it will be easier to make the charge when the BA codex comes out, maybe not.
For 303 pts i can get 5 company vets with JP, combiplasma and stormshield, plus a captain with combiplasma to reroll 1s to avoid supercharge blowups. No need for a transport. No need to make a 9" charge, 12" movement, the ability to fallback from CC and still shoot. At 12" the vets plus captain can do 24 damage, assault termis can do 33, if they make it into CC. If not its 0. Normal termis will do less than 24 damage when shooting, and 0 when they fail the charge.
Especially when given a heavy weapons trooper, Tactical Termies are something like 40% shooting 60% melee. If you don't use that 40%, you're not really using their stats very well.
As for your 303 points... well, yeah. If you spend a full 111 points more, you'll definitely get more. Even with an assault cannon, though, tactical termies are only 211 points, substantially less than you spent.
For what you spent, the tactical terminator squad would be eight-strong, or seven with an assault cannon and a chainfist.
You also forget the fact that assault termi are insaleny tought against most weapons but plasma spam. Even 1 or 2 left is a pain in the ass. While after the alpha yours vets will be killed by mere saturation of bolters and represent nothing on the board.
Both units have their use, i'm more dubious for the regular termis without good ++ save vs plasma.
Agreed, the Sanguinary Discipline is amazing. I love Shield of Sanguinius on my Librarian Dread. Unleash Rage on charging Death Company makes them just heinous in melee, and even Blood Boil is useful since you can cherry pick a unit within 18" to generally inflict one or two mortal wounds (against MEQ anyway) or even 3 if you're lucky. It's fun to use against characters especially.
I'm sorting out how I want to build the next part of my army now. More bolters and big guns are the order of the day so far, after finishing up my Death Co. Dread I'll be building more tactical marines, some Primaris marines, and Death Company.
I'll also be building at least one Razorback soon as well. Hopefully two, depending on funds.
Looking forward to seeing more discussion here in the mean time.
PandatheWarrior wrote:You also forget the fact that assault termi are insaleny tought against most weapons but plasma spam. Even 1 or 2 left is a pain in the ass. While after the alpha yours vets will be killed by mere saturation of bolters and represent nothing on the board.
They are insanely tough against lascannons, grav, disintegration, meltas, rocket launchers, power weapons. flamestormcannons ? Enough small arms fire will kill you, you will roll those 1s. You have no chance against an orc boyz mob of 30.
I can play it relatively safe and deepstrike 12-24" away, on a flank, maybe in cover. That will put me out of range from most enemy fire, and give me a 2+sv, reducing my damage output at 12"+ though. Your assault termis have to get into CC, which is not easy right now.
Melissia wrote:At least you can still up their save to 4++ with a librarian if you're worried about it. The sangiunary discipline is so good.
Vets can have SS too and 10 overcharged plasma shots in the face rerolling 1s if the captain is nearby can deal massive damage.
Don't get me wrong I FUCKIN LOVE HAMMERETORS but what If I fail the charge? Moreover they always have the -1 to hit so they would need the help of a chaplain to get some help too
I don't get the comparaison, both are different uses and TH termies are significantly tougher /points.
Instead of basing yourself on the charge just play one unit one time.
The exemple for the vets are so bad when they get wiped by auspec or if they DS far, they are just gonna hit with 5 pathetic plasma shots for 200 pts + captain.
I'm definitely not saying they are op but they are not trash.
The exemple for the vets are so bad when they get wiped by auspec or if they DS far, they are just gonna hit with 5 pathetic plasma shots for 200 pts + captain.
5 plasma shots hitting on 3+, rerolling 1s, with 3-4 hits, doing 6-8 damage are better than failing the 9" charge and do 0 damage.
Doesn't make the statement less true. Grav was too good. Before that, plasma was too good. Before that, krak missiles were probably too good (2nd). None of these facts ever made terminators less ass.
Even without plasma, there's a plethora of 2 damage weapons and sources of mortal wounds (OMG tyranids) that are exceedingly efficient vs terminators. Even the humble autocannon is quite fearsome.
I'm just pointing out that terminators are still in an awkward cruch-based position. You'd have to remove half the weapons in the game before they became worthwhile.
Terminators, and indeed heavy infantry in general, are in a weird place where there isn't really a wrong weapon to shoot at them, compared to vehicles or lighter infantry, except maybe small arms fire, but even enough of that can work in a pinch since they are not usually t5 and have to rely on armor saves and 2 wounds to stay alive.
I just finished a kill point game against a sister player and I've been tabled out at turn 4 while he still had about half his army fielded. I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong since my current win % with BA this edition is terrible: after this loss my record is 2W and 8L.
Here is the list I used today, a vanguard and a fast attack detachment:
Captain, JP, combi-plasma and relic blade
5 men assault squad, 2 plasmagun, sergeant with power axe and plasma pistol
5 men assault squad, 2 plasmagun, sergeant with power axe and plasma pistol
5 men assault squad, 2 plasmagun, sergeant with power axe and plasma pistol
5x DC, JP, boltgun, 4x power axes and 1 power fist
5x company veterans, JP, 5 combiplasma and ss
5x company veterans, JP, 5 combiplasma and ss
5x devastator squad, 4x lascannon
5x devastator squad, 4x lascannon
Captain and veterans were on reserve, the assault squads were on the razorback and I embarked both the priest and the DC inside the SR.
I managed to do a lot of damage to his vehicles but once we drew blades in combat he was basically wiping out entire units with her cute saint and some sort of naked berserkers who deals 2xd3 attacks, have 2 wounds each and a 5+ save. They spitted on my DC too xD.
I don't think I'm doing terrible mistakes in game as also my previous buddy opponent who plays necrons told me I played really good so I guess that the problem is more related to list building.
Do you guys have any precious suggestion I could use to improve my win rating?
I just finished a kill point game against a sister player and I've been tabled out at turn 4 while he still had about half his army fielded. I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong since my current win % with BA this edition is terrible: after this loss my record is 2W and 8L.
Here is the list I used today, a vanguard and a fast attack detachment:
Captain, JP, combi-plasma and relic blade
5 men assault squad, 2 plasmagun, sergeant with power axe and plasma pistol
5 men assault squad, 2 plasmagun, sergeant with power axe and plasma pistol
5 men assault squad, 2 plasmagun, sergeant with power axe and plasma pistol
5x DC, JP, boltgun, 4x power axes and 1 power fist
5x company veterans, JP, 5 combiplasma and ss
5x company veterans, JP, 5 combiplasma and ss
5x devastator squad, 4x lascannon
5x devastator squad, 4x lascannon
Captain and veterans were on reserve, the assault squads were on the razorback and I embarked both the priest and the DC inside the SR.
I managed to do a lot of damage to his vehicles but once we drew blades in combat he was basically wiping out entire units with her cute saint and some sort of naked berserkers who deals 2xd3 attacks, have 2 wounds each and a 5+ save. They spitted on my DC too xD.
I don't think I'm doing terrible mistakes in game as also my previous buddy opponent who plays necrons told me I played really good so I guess that the problem is more related to list building.
Do you guys have any precious suggestion I could use to improve my win rating?
Cheers,
Christian
Sisters are a top tier army, non-gimmicky SM armies including BA are probably below average in this edition. So the main problem might be the matchup.
My suggestions: Cut those assault squads. They don't do enough even with the plasma guns. I'm not sure what to replace them with, I wouldn't say it's necessary to put anything in the razorbacks.
Add some chaff devastators to those squads, it's too easy to eliminate the lascannons. I'd consider running quad-las predators instead.
I'm not sure about the rest, it looks fairly competitive to me.
I think you might need a couple fodder/speedbump units in your list of you aren't taking melee type units. Because once most of your list gets into combat, it will probably die, and if not, they definitely lose a lot of effectiveness until it can shoot again.
Scouts and rhinos work pretty well for me, getting in things way and charging things to stall until i am ready to shoot and charge things on my own terms.
Alternatively, maybe just add more of a melee element.
x5 Death Company, Jump packs, boltguns, x4 power swords, thunderhammer with Sanguinary Priest with Power sword.
Or
x5 Death Company, Jump packs, boltguns, x4 power axes, thunderhammer with chaplain.
Im trying to decide if S5 with AP-3 and the ability to bring people back beats S5 AP-2 re-rolling hits? They cost roughly the same give or take a few points.
Even if you don't have +1 str you still want powerswords. I'd go with chaplain in this configuration, tho it's a bit much to have a character buff 5 guys, what is the rest of your army.
Str4 ap3 is very similar dmg to Str5 ap2 against most t4 infantry except t-shirt saves, and vs many of the t-shirt save units they are T3. Vs T7/T6 veichles, str4 powerswords are much better.
Drop the priest and get four more DC models. The priest can only revive one model each round, and the chance is 50%. If he fails he cannot fight. Why not start with four more models in the first place ? Four models will give you 8 attacks (12 when charging), instead of 3 for the priest. Go with poweraxes, for +1 str. Makes wounding easier.
jcd386 wrote: I think you might need a couple fodder/speedbump units in your list of you aren't taking melee type units. Because once most of your list gets into combat, it will probably die, and if not, they definitely lose a lot of effectiveness until it can shoot again.
Scouts and rhinos work pretty well for me, getting in things way and charging things to stall until i am ready to shoot and charge things on my own terms.
Alternatively, maybe just add more of a melee element.
Are you running the battalion detachment? Are you using sniper scouts? I only tried them once and I felt disappointed and they are pretty damn expensive.
Remtek wrote:Even if you don't have +1 str you still want powerswords. I'd go with chaplain in this configuration, tho it's a bit much to have a character buff 5 guys, what is the rest of your army.
Str4 ap3 is very similar dmg to Str5 ap2 against most t4 infantry except t-shirt saves, and vs many of the t-shirt save units they are T3. Vs T7/T6 veichles, str4 powerswords are much better.
I thought Id seen a math hammer that suggested axes were generally better other than against T3 thats why I went with them. I've added my list, its currently in the army list section but any help with it is appreciated. The Chaplain is to go with the DC in Raven or atleast that was the plan.
Spoiler:
Vanguard Detachment +1 CP
+ HQ +
Captain [6 PL, 105pts]: Jump Pack, Plasma pistol, Power axe
Company Veterans [10 PL, 162pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Plasma gun
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Plasma gun
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Plasma gun
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Plasma gun
. Veteran Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
Company Veterans [10 PL, 162pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Plasma gun
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Plasma gun
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Plasma gun
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Plasma gun
. Veteran Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
Death Company [10 PL, 136pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Thunderhammer
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power sword
. Death Company Marine: Boltgun, Power sword
p5freak wrote:Drop the priest and get four more DC models. The priest can only revive one model each round, and the chance is 50%. If he fails he cannot fight. Why not start with four more models in the first place ? Four models will give you 8 attacks (12 when charging), instead of 3 for the priest. Go with poweraxes, for +1 str. Makes wounding easier.
Yeah i suppose that might be a better idea, I was planning on having them in the raven but I guess I might be better off just running them up the board?
fatbudda319 wrote: I thought Id seen a math hammer that suggested axes were generally better other than against T3
Axes buffed by a sanguinary priests are in fact better against T3 with 5+ saves. Axes that aren't buffed by priests are no better than power swords against T3 5+ saves.
Each S6 axe does 0.556 wounds per attack (before rerolls). S5 axes, S5 swords, or S4 swords all do 0.444 wounds per attack.
It isn't strength 5, but strength 6 you're aiming for. S6 axes are better against everything T3 than S5 axes, because of the new to-wound chart (S5 wounds T3 the same as T4-- on a 3+-- but S6 wounds T3 on a 2+).
fatbudda319 wrote: I thought Id seen a math hammer that suggested axes were generally better other than against T3
Axes buffed by a sanguinary priests are in fact better against T3 with 5+ saves. Axes that aren't buffed by priests are no better than power swords against T3 5+ saves.
Each S6 axe does 0.556 wounds per attack (before rerolls). S5 axes, S5 swords, or S4 swords all do 0.444 wounds per attack.
It isn't strength 5, but strength 6 you're aiming for. S6 axes are better against everything T3 than S5 axes, because of the new to-wound chart (S5 wounds T3 the same as T4-- on a 3+-- but S6 wounds T3 on a 2+).
Sorry I meant that I thought the sword was only better vs T3 whilst the axe is better at chopping marines right?
jcd386 wrote: I think you might need a couple fodder/speedbump units in your list of you aren't taking melee type units. Because once most of your list gets into combat, it will probably die, and if not, they definitely lose a lot of effectiveness until it can shoot again.
Scouts and rhinos work pretty well for me, getting in things way and charging things to stall until i am ready to shoot and charge things on my own terms.
Alternatively, maybe just add more of a melee element.
Are you running the battalion detachment? Are you using sniper scouts? I only tried them once and I felt disappointed and they are pretty damn expensive.
What are you running inside the rhinos? DC?
Cheers and thanks to both of you
Just bolter scouts. 2 or 3 x5 is an easy way to help fill the battalion. And they don't do a ton every game, but they are cheap and are great at slowing down deep striking units and standing between the enemy and your shooty units. As long as they don't die during your turn when they charge, they will at least force a unit to fight them or fall back, and a lot of the time that's worth it.
The rhino can be for anything, really. Scouts, tacs, DC, even assaults or just characters as it can also help you go first. You should think of a rhino as a monstrous creature that you can use to lock people up, keep deep strikers off your stuff, and soak up anti tank fire, as well as hold a bunch of guys ready to plasma something.
Each hit with an axe wounds 66.7% of the time.
Each hit with a sword wounds 50% of the time.
However.
The axe reduces the armor save to 5+, resulting in 0.444 kills per hit. The sword reduces the armor save to 6+, resulting in 0.417 kills per hit. The axe is marginally better than the sword against MEQ. Whether or not this is enough to bother iwth the additional point is up to you. You can get a better result by having a sanguinary priest near the swordsman; each S5 sword hit makes 0.667 wounds, of which 0.556 are unsaved.
In practice, this doesn't matter much as your melee dudes get ripped apart by shooting to the point of ineffectiveness. You need boards where there is enough terrain to hide jumpers, but not so much that the IG can hide 4+ artillery tanks. That's a bit of a fine line.
You must be really, really bad at using melee in order for that to be the case. Plenty of players are reporting success with their melee armies, and I've seen plenty of that first hand watching games while shooting the breeze at the store getting advice on painting.
Many, many more are reporting success with gun lines. Because they're just better. Also remember I typically play against people who are very proficient.
I'd be curious to see what people would consider a competitive marine melee focused army, because I'm not sure i see it. Without some kind of heavy shooting to soften up the bubble wrap or kill off the backfield units, I don't really see how you get into combat with the deadly shooting units of your opponent's army. All of the competitive lists I've seen so far with any marine book are shooty.
Martel732 wrote: Many, many more are reporting success with gun lines.
I don't see more people reporting success with "gunlines" than assault armies. Actually, it's mostly mobile short-ranged shooting armies (Tau commanders, deep striking scions spamming plasmaguns, MSU mechanized SoB, etc) reporting success-- and these aren't gunlines, and many of their players have stated their biggest threat doesn't come from another shooting army but rather a well played melee army (such as genestealers or horde boyz).
Martel732 wrote: Also remember I typically play against people who are very proficient.
I gotta be honest, I don't even know what that looks like. I think lists need a minimum threshold of standoff weapons in 8th. Because things like plasma bugs happen. That makes melee really hard.
Martel732 wrote: Many, many more are reporting success with gun lines.
I don't see more people reporting success with "gunlines" than assault armies. Actually, it's mostly mobile short-ranged shooting armies (Tau commanders, deep striking scions spamming plasmaguns, MSU mechanized SoB, etc) reporting success-- and these aren't gunlines, and many of their players have stated their biggest threat doesn't come from another shooting army but rather a well played melee army (such as genestealers or horde boyz).
Martel732 wrote: Also remember I typically play against people who are very proficient.
Comparatively speaking, I'm sure.
Genestealers and horde boyz are way more efficient than marine assault units.
It's even more likely we're operating at a level you don't understand, hence you think BA are still viable in their current form in 8th. They aren't.
Marine assault elements are still paying for stats they really can't use well like BS. It all goes back to 40K heavily punishing generalists, regardless of what some posters will have you believe. Marines were a crap list in 6th/7th without magical formations of free units and superfriends death stars. BA were the embodiment of that, having no useful formations, nor any death stars. Because the marine statline was/is not efficient.
You want specialists. It's why Eldar have been strong since... forever it seems. IG now have specialists aplenty. That's why they dominate.
Vanguards and DC are better, but still not competitive against the best units in the game. Plasma scions, for example, will always be able to first strike them. They also just don't have the killing power to get through Orks/gaunts/conscripts/brimstone horrors.
A very important thing to consider in the shooty vs assaulty is the LOS blocking terrain in your metas. It makes a huge difference on the effective of shooting armies.
Apparently, a lot of people put tons of LoS blocking terrain on the board, when I've never seen GW itself do that. GW prefers area terrain, or terrain that has lots of gaps like windows and holes blasted in to walls.
IMO, GW has it right. There should be more area terrain than LoS blocking terrain; unless you're playing with city fight rules, LoS blockers should be the exception, not the norm.
That's the functional equivalent of planet bowling ball, though. As I said, BA really need LoS to hide jumpers, but not so much that artillery becomes immortal.
Martel732 wrote: That's the functional equivalent of planet bowling ball, though.
Not really. Because having a lot more area terrain means you ahve a lot more protection vs shooting units, especially marines with their small squad sizes (just try getting a cover save with 30 boyz on the move!). Having a lot of area terrain benefits assault armies more than shooting armies when using the basic terrain rules, and still arguably benefits assault armies more than shooting armies when using the advanced rules (though it's more even there, since woods, craters, and obstacles halve charge distance, though the latter only against specific kinds of units and they don't provide cover).
Having mostly LoS blocking terrain, to the point that your enemy can position multiple tanks in such a way taht they cannot be fired at by any single unit in your deployment zone, is definitely overdoing it.
I agree with Martel, area terrain doesn't help assault marines anymore than it did in past editions. they don't have the survivability to jump across the table and make it into CC with enough bodies to not only defeat the squad your aiming at, but continue on to more. You need to be able to not get shot with LoS blocking terrain. Frontline discussed this today and was saying the exact same thing. Tables need a couple large pieces of LoS blocking terrain or games are too up and down.
Tabled one game, table your opponent the next.
At least back in 5th, DC had a 5+ FnP on top of their armor save. That was barely enough to see them into CC, now with terrain in it's current incarnation, +1 to armor save ain't going to do gak for them against squads of rapid firing plasma and armies of conscripts pouring shots into them. Your just going to lose too many guys to be effective.
Short of Khorn berzerkers, marines just aren't the greatest CC units, they don't have the numbers, stats or rules.
We need some pretty damn good rules in the codex if anyone expects our assault to be very good, or competitive.
bobafett012 wrote: , now with terrain in it's current incarnation, +1 to armor save ain't going to do gak for them against squads of rapid firing plasma and armies of conscripts pouring shots into them.
Raising an MEQ's 3+ save to 2+ means it will take on average 50 shots for a conscript to deal one damage to it (50 shots, 16.667 hits, 5.556 wounds, 0.924 kills, rounded up to one to be generous to the conscripts). So if the conscript squad is completely undamaged-- which is incredibly unlikely, in spite of Martel's incessant whining about conscripts supposedly being nigh unkillable it's quite easy to cause them enough casualties to noticably reduce their firepower with anything even so simple as bolter shock-- it might on average kill two marines who are in cover within 12" of the conscript squad. This compared to out of cover where they might kill just shy of four marines. So... it actually does help against conscripts. It helps a lot, in fact, basically cutting their damage output in half.
Rapid fire plasma is still a problem of course; the cover save goes from 0.694 to 0.556 kills per rapid fire overcharge-- not a substantial increase compared to the conscripts, but it's still noticeable in that you get a 5+ save instead of a 6+. Being so terrified of the enemy forces that you forego smart tactical decisions doesn't make you a good commander. Massed low-power shooting is exactly the kind of thing that cover saves help against, especially for MEQ.
But, you have to have a lot of on foot marines in your army to really start noticing / taking advantage of the savings.
In mech lists, i don't think i have much more than 10 marines down on the table at a time, so most lists can probably kill them, cover or no, even if it takes them 100% or 50% more fire power to do so than if they weren't in cover. Then whatever left over anti infantry fire they have mostly bounces off my tanks. So did cover help? Sure but not much. I'd still try to get in it, though.
If you have 70 marines on foot, cover becomes a lot more noticable, as there isn't anything else to shoot at, so you really get to make the most out of the cover, reducing the incoming damage to your army by x% depending on the AP of the weapon. Losing 60 marines to bolters goes down to 30 if you are in cover. Assault cannons killing 60 goes to 40. This can be game changing as it means a large percentage of your army still alive.
This is why it's usually a good idea to either go mostly tanks or mostly infantry, since you can mostly ignore a lot of the enemy firepower.
bobafett012 wrote: , now with terrain in it's current incarnation, +1 to armor save ain't going to do gak for them against squads of rapid firing plasma and armies of conscripts pouring shots into them.
Raising an MEQ's 3+ save to 2+ means it will take on average 50 shots for a conscript to deal one damage to it (50 shots, 16.667 hits, 5.556 wounds, 0.924 kills, rounded up to one to be generous to the conscripts). So if the conscript squad is completely undamaged-- which is incredibly unlikely, in spite of Martel's incessant whining about conscripts supposedly being nigh unkillable it's quite easy to cause them enough casualties to noticably reduce their firepower with anything even so simple as bolter shock-- it might on average kill two marines who are in cover within 12" of the conscript squad. This compared to out of cover where they might kill just shy of four marines. So... it actually does help against conscripts. It helps a lot, in fact, basically cutting their damage output in half.
Rapid fire plasma is still a problem of course; the cover save goes from 0.694 to 0.556 kills per rapid fire overcharge-- not a substantial increase compared to the conscripts, but it's still noticeable in that you get a 5+ save instead of a 6+. Being so terrified of the enemy forces that you forego smart tactical decisions doesn't make you a good commander. Massed low-power shooting is exactly the kind of thing that cover saves help against, especially for MEQ.
Mathhammer is great, I it use all the time, but i've also played so many games since the late 90's and understand how straight math doesn't paint the whole picture either. Your scenario assumes the best case for those BA jumpers, that there is in fact area terrain right near by that conscript blob (or any unit for that matter), they take only 1 round of shooting , no overwatch, no HQs that provide auras like re-roll 1's for their shooting, no orders to provide re-rolls for wounds or shooting, You know what's even better than losing 1-4 marines to massed fire or plasma etc weapons? Losing none because you can jump behind a building that blocks line of sight to some or all units.
This is all really beside the point anyways, my point was that shooting overall, not just conscripts is currently going to make playing assault JPBA armies an uphill battle at best unfortunately. They don't have the punch that dedicated CC units have, they don't have the survivability either, just as it has been the last few editions of 40k for the BA jumpers armies. Actually, I don't know much about 7th because i didn't play in that edition but from what I've read, BA were bottom tier in 7th, and they were definitely bottom tier in 6th.
jcd386 wrote: Cover is great, and if you can be in it, you should be.
This is why it's usually a good idea to either go mostly tanks or mostly infantry, since you can mostly ignore a lot of the enemy firepower.
Of course, I don't anyone is advocating not using cover every chance you get, we're mainly talking about LoS blocking terrain because losing zero units compared to any is better.
The problem with the mostly tanks or mostly infantry with BA jumpers is that you have no answer to high toughness monsters/vehicles etc. It's even worse now because with this 9" DS, you will not be able to DS in close enough to utilize things like melta and such and anything important will be bubble wrapped anyhow.
bobafett012 wrote: Your scenario assumes the best case for those BA jumpers
Your complaints about them assumes the worst, which is not helpful at all-- and furthermore, mine actually assumed the best case scenario in that the conscripts haven't taken any damage whatsoever. By rounding up I actually gave conscripts the benefit there. RErolling 1s to hit on those conscripts is a hilarious waste of an order.
And you know what's better for a shooty army than cover? Being able to hide their ignores-line-of-sight units behind terrain that makes them impossible to be shot at. And that's actually more useful to them than the assault army ,because of the assault army is hiding behind los blocking terrain, it's not doing any damage, where the ignores-los unit still is.
I'm not even disagreeing here, just trying to tone down the damn hyperbole. Jump ASM are definitely not the most powerful unit around. Especially not in that minimum 5-man squad with a bare bones sarge I see so often. I simply think they're still potentially useful.
You'd probably be better off with tacticals rather than ASM regardless-- tacticals have a better alpha strike than most people give them credit for (in fact, one of the better examples on how to kill a conscript squad in one turn involved a trio of tactical squads, people really underestimate TSMs); even barebones bolter shock to charge is equivalent to what assault marines get, except they do more damage before overwatch than the asm do, though they do less damage in subsequent turns of combat... and that's before you add in equipment. Put a pair of squads in a rhino or one squad and a character in a razor, and they're just as mobile. Can still even use them as an assault unit, you just need to make sure to preface their assault with a round of shooting.
Chaplain will be if you want more dmg, priest if you want to rez, but rezzing is kinda meh on DC. But you should be planning to buff more than 5 guys to justify the character investment for just 5 guys they might as well go alone then. If your on foot Corbulo > Chaplain the rez is 75% success with re-roll and bonus attacks on sixes. But then again on foot Meph can give 4++ and +1 attack and does good dmg himself.
Dedicated elite assault units are in a bad spot atm, hopefully the codex will address that.
(no aura)
VS MEQ:
15 Powersword attacks: 4,17
15 Poweraxe attacks: 4,444
VS Conscripts:
15 Powersword attacks: 6,667
15 Poweraxe attacks: 6,667
VS Dreadnought/Rhino
15 Powersword attacks: 2,78
15 Poweraxe attacks: 2,22
Vs TEQ 15 Powersword attacks: 3,33
15 Poweraxe attacks: 3,33
Vs Bike MEQ:
15 Powersword attacks: 2,78
15 Poweraxe attacks: 3,33
(Chaplain re-roll aura)
VS MEQ:
15 Powersword attacks: 5,56
15 Poweraxe attacks: 5,93
VS Conscripts:
15 Powersword attacks: 8,889
15 Poweraxe attacks: 8,889
VS Dreadnought/Rhino
15 Powersword attacks: 3,70
15 Poweraxe attacks: 2,96
Vs TEQ 15 Powersword attacks: 4,44
15 Poweraxe attacks: 4,44
Vs Bike MEQ:
15 Powersword attacks: 3,70
15 Poweraxe attacks: 4,44
(Priest str aura)
VS MEQ:
15 Powersword attacks: 5,56
15 Poweraxe attacks: 4.44
VS Conscripts:
15 Powersword attacks: 6,667
15 Poweraxe attacks: 8,33
VS Dreadnought/Rhino
15 Powersword attacks: 2,78
15 Poweraxe attacks: 2,22
Vs TEQ 15 Powersword attacks: 4,44
15 Poweraxe attacks: 3,33
Vs Bike MEQ:
15 Powersword attacks: 4,17
15 Poweraxe attacks: 4,44
@ Melissia: are you using a full CC list? My only two victories have been achieved via a simple and sad shooty list like if I was an ultramarine: the other 8 games I tried to play as a blood angel and got tabled.
We re a group of around 10 people playin the game, two of them started back in 4th edition and they all agree that our index is quite garbage. My buddy tried 4 games with BA and got also tabled and he decided to bench them and carry on with his tyranid army.
However I'm open-minded and if you re having great success with your CC list, I want to try it out too.
Here is a batrep showing how "great" assault termis are. Two 5 model units with claws did 0 damage, 400pts wasted. The ones with SS and TH did pretty good, though.
The problem with the mostly tanks or mostly infantry with BA jumpers is that you have no answer to high toughness monsters/vehicles etc.
Thats wrong.
Sorry, said that wrong, mostly tanks can easily deal with high toughness, mostly jumpers can't
Thats still wrong.
No it's very correct, and has been for a long time. At least before with the old DS rules you could risk the mishap to get close, now armies just spread out squads to deny DS anywhere of substance. I played many games now in 8th where my opponents just deployed squads like cultists or the like and i literally didn't have anywhere that was 9" away to DS. If you try to jump across the board, they just get shot to pieces before you get there.
The current cover rules often force you into the choice of staying in cover or getting into optimal assault position. LoS blocking is so much better for assault units, especially jump assault units.
No it's very correct, and has been for a long time. At least before with the old DS rules you could risk the mishap to get close, now armies just spread out squads to deny DS anywhere of substance. I played many games now in 8th where my opponents just deployed squads like cultists or the like and i literally didn't have anywhere that was 9" away to DS. If you try to jump across the board, they just get shot to pieces before you get there.
Its wrong. There is no need to go into CC to do damage. In 8th BA jumpers can take ranged weapons. Company vets with JP can take Combiplasma, deepstrike, and shoot up to 24", or twice at 12". Add a captain to reroll 1s, to minimize supercharged plasma blowups to almost 0. Vanguard assault vets can take two plasma pistols each, 20 shots of plasma at 12" will hurt high toughness units. Add a captain to reroll 1s, to minimize supercharged plasma blowups to almost 0. There is always space between the deployment zones to deepstrike.
They dont need a captain babysitter. They can shoot plasma without supercharging. The captain makes them so much better. A 5 model unit of comp vets with comb plas is 155 pts., the captain doubles their damage output for only 77 pts.
Spado wrote: @ Melissia: are you using a full CC list?
A mixture of CC and shooting.
Spado wrote: My only two victories have been achieved via a simple and sad shooty list like if I was an ultramarine: the other 8 games I tried to play as a blood angel and got tabled.
This is wrong in so many ways. BA use tacticals, tanks, and sternguard just as much as any codex adherent chapter, they aren't all freaking assault marines with jump packs in the lore.
Still you want some BA-special units. And most of the time they feel like you are weaken your army. As a BA-Player for twenty years this hurts so much. :(
Covenant wrote: Still you want some BA-special units. And most of the time they feel like you are weaken your army. As a BA-Player for twenty years this hurts so much. :(
Its wrong. There is no need to go into CC to do damage. In 8th BA jumpers can take ranged weapons. Company vets with JP can take Combiplasma, deepstrike, and shoot up to 24", or twice at 12". Add a captain to reroll 1s, to minimize supercharged plasma blowups to almost 0. Vanguard assault vets can take two plasma pistols each, 20 shots of plasma at 12" will hurt high toughness units. Add a captain to reroll 1s, to minimize supercharged plasma blowups to almost 0. There is always space between the deployment zones to deepstrike.
That's laughable at best. 1 damage weapons, 2 if you want to kill your own guys, to be your dedicated vehicle killers. 12" range on double pistols, lol, I couldn't get within 20" of my opponents tanks last game because of his positioning and deployment,. And then I have to take a captain with a JP just to babysit and use the 2 damage option.
Yeah your going to wipe those hellhammers and knights and other high toughness, high wound models with those plasma pistols, come on now.
And who said anything about CC to kill these things? I used to run 3 AC/LC preds to kill stuff, I'll probably switch over to Trilas peds now.
Is mechdar even any good? Either way you'd want Las, missiles, or melta in any list, assaulty or not. Right? I don't think anyone is planning on killing vehicle lists with plasma. Maybe 1-2, but not 8.
jcd386 wrote: Is mechdar even any good? Either way you'd want Las, missiles, or melta in any list, assaulty or not. Right? I don't think anyone is planning on killing vehicle lists with plasma. Maybe 1-2, but not 8.
Exactly. Maybe in a scions list thats running 40+ plasma guns, but your not taking out Vehicles, monsters, or any amount of vehicles with plasma other than in a pinch. In my experience so far in 8th, armies need anti-high toughness/high wound weapons. Period.
jcd386 wrote: Is mechdar even any good? Either way you'd want Las, missiles, or melta in any list, assaulty or not. Right? I don't think anyone is planning on killing vehicle lists with plasma. Maybe 1-2, but not 8.
Exactly. Maybe in a scions list thats running 40+ plasma guns, but your not taking out Vehicles, monsters, or any amount of vehicles with plasma other than in a pinch. In my experience so far in 8th, armies need anti-high toughness/high wound weapons. Period.
Yeah i can't think of many (any?) exceptions. I have had success with 8-12 las cannons or equivalent, depending on the rerolls i have available. I also like enough D2/D1-3 damage to wipe 10 or terminators a turn, and 2-3 twin assault cannons or their equivalent for killing lighter infantry.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: The marine list with say 15 plasma guns that rely on them for say half their anti tank is basically an autoloss to mechdar.
Martel732 wrote:
It takes away the 2 damage option, which is the whole point of plasma. Because base plasma is very meh, imo.
No need to overcharge then. Saves the captain points for something else. More plasma guns, for example
bobafett012 wrote:
Exactly. Maybe in a scions list thats running 40+ plasma guns, but your not taking out Vehicles, monsters, or any amount of vehicles with plasma other than in a pinch. In my experience so far in 8th, armies need anti-high toughness/high wound weapons. Period.
I wonder how i managed to kill a hellhound in one turn and next turn a chimera with my 5 model company veteran squad with combi plasma and a captain with the same gear,
bobafett012 wrote:
Exactly. Maybe in a scions list thats running 40+ plasma guns, but your not taking out Vehicles, monsters, or any amount of vehicles with plasma other than in a pinch. In my experience so far in 8th, armies need anti-high toughness/high wound weapons. Period.
I wonder how i managed to kill a hellhound in one turn and next turn a chimera with my 5 model company veteran squad with combi plasma and a captain with the same gear,
Yes at 2 damage a pop, but you have to be within 12", your risking killing your own guys, and your talking about light tanks. How about a land raider, a knight, bane blade or the like. A predator sitting in his back lines with no where close to DS. It's silly to think plasma is a good anti tank weapon. It's fine in a pinch, but you need consistent and high damage anti vehicle to handle many of the tougher vehicles and monsters in this edition.
Hellhound is a light tank with T7 11w and a 3+ save.
A squad of five with combiplasmas and a captain with combiplasma could theoretically kill it in one turn (average 6.049 unsaved wounds at two damage each), assuming none of them killed themselves on the first shot and you shot the captain last to ensure his survival. That said, at 236 points, needing to be undamaged within 12" and firing overcharge (thus presenting a danger to yourself)... being able to kill a 101 point hellhound in one turn is about right.
bobafett012 wrote:
Yes at 2 damage a pop, but you have to be within 12", your risking killing your own guys, and your talking about light tanks. How about a land raider, a knight, bane blade or the like.
How am i risking killing my own guys ? The chance of rolling two ones on one die is 3%.
bobafett012 wrote:
It's silly to think plasma is a good anti tank weapon.
Six plasmaguns are 65 pts. Show me ranged "consistent and high damage anti vehicle" weapon(s) for 65 pts., which can do the same, killing a light tank in one turn.
Personally, I'd rather have 5 devastators with 4 Las cannons, a Signum and cherub for 170 points that can sit in cover and shoot 48" across the board. They live longer, can handle higher toughness models, and can so a lot more damage, specially when you use CPs to reroll low damage rolls.
I'd probably also rather have a tri Las pred or AC/LC pred for 190/189 points as well.
Looking through the book, what are you looking at that your loading up plasma guns or combi plasma on the whole squad? Sternguard vets?
bobafett012 wrote: Looking through the book, what are you looking at that your loading up plasma guns or combi plasma on the whole squad? Sternguard vets?
Sternguard for combiplasma, though honestly sternguard are decent enough with just hte base special-issue boltguns. But for plasmaguns, it's company veterans.
Either one you pay a premium for over tacs or devs. 155 points for five combiplasma sternguards, or 147 for four plasgun company vets with combiplas sarge. Compare that to four lascannons and a cherub on a dev squad for 170 points, which has four times the effective range, isn't risky to fire, and hits harder per shot. The plasma will potentially do more damage against T7 or lower if you can get them in to 12" rapid fire range, but they also take more risk in doing so or give up a turn of shooting from needing to disembark. If you include the rhino necessary for the plasma team to move up, you need 308 points total for the combiplas team mentioned above. For 340 points you can instead have ten lascannon shots turn one.
tl;dr: both are valid. But each one has its drawbacks. I'd say though I think lascannons do a better job supporting an assault army than plasma vets. It allows you to focus the assault portion of your army on killing infantry.
Yeah to kill a tank with plasma you have to get close, so it's a lot more than 65 points to kill a tank. Not even mentioning you need need an HQ aura, a unit with deepstrike, or a rhino to get them in range, it gets to cost a lot more to kill that tank.
Plus, deepstrike isn't reliable against armies with scouts or enough chaff units to keep your units off their good stuff, so it's not like you want to have 15 plasma guns off in deepstrike, each with at least a 16 point marine attached to it depending on the unit, waiting for the other player to give you a good target while 2k of his list shoots 1700 of yours when you can just have 12 Las cannons.
And if they are in rhinos, that's like two turns to shoot at all, and maybe never against backlive tanks like predators.
Plasma guns can be used as anti tank in a pinch, but i don't think you can rely on it against good players and lists.
510 points of dedicated anti-tank (3 4-las dev squads with cherubs) is probably fairly well spent, considering first turn you get 15 shots then 12 shots after, barring casualties. That's enough to do almost 20 damage on the first turn alone, erasing one or more tanks-- and that's assuming T7 3+ saves. It's even enough to, on average, annihilate a stormraven in one turn. And that's without character support.
Granted this assumes you're going to be going first; marines usually do, though.
Greetings fellow BA players. Tomorrow evening I'm going to play very likely against an ynnari player. This is the list I have in mind:
Battalion detachment:
HQ
Captain, relic blade, storm shield, JP [5]
Captain, rleic blade, combiplasma, JP [5]
Troops
5x tactical space marines, heavy flamer, sergeant with combiflamer [5]
5x tactical space marines, heavy flamer, sergeant with combiflamer [5]
5x tactical space marines, heavy flamer, sergeant with combiflamer [5]
Elites
5x company veterans, combiplasma, JP, ss [10]
5x company veterans, combiplasma, JP, ss [10]
Flyer
Stormraven [15]
Heavy support
5x devastator squad, 4x lascannon [7]
Predator quadra-lascannon [9]
Predator lascannon sponsons and autocannon [9]
Dedicated transport
Razorback, TL assault cannon [5]
Razorback, TL assault cannon [5]
Razorback, TL assault cannon [5]
Plan:SR as well as the three rb with my tacticals rush forward and burn some xeno's. One of the captain stays close to the devastator squad and one of the predator to reroll 1's. Company veterans and the other captain are in deep strike.
I don't know whether I should replace the assault cannon with the heavy flamer? Consider that I will rush forward it might get severely damaged already and the flames might be better. What do you think?
As usual I'll let you know how it goes.
For Sanguinius!
Martel732 wrote: This seems better done with a vanilla chapter, but sure.
What's on the SR?
THIS!
This is the problem with trying to fall back to the old idea that blood angels are indeed a codex chapter and should be run like one. They don't do anything better then a codex chapter when playing this style. If you play to the BA strengths, then we start looking a lot better. Does that mean all melee, no, not at all. But a much more balanced list then the all shooty codex chapter armies from C:SM.
This is the problem with trying to fall back to the old idea that blood angels are indeed a codex chapter and should be run like one. They don't do anything better then a codex chapter when playing this style. If you play to the BA strengths, then we start looking a lot better. Does that mean all melee, no, not at all. But a much more balanced list then the all shooty codex chapter armies from C:SM.
According to the fluff we like to deepstrike with JP, we like flamers, and we like melee. And what of this can we do better than any other chapter ? Nothing. So, what are those BA strength you are talking about ? Black rage ? Nice to have, but nothing spectacular.
This is the problem with trying to fall back to the old idea that blood angels are indeed a codex chapter and should be run like one. They don't do anything better then a codex chapter when playing this style. If you play to the BA strengths, then we start looking a lot better. Does that mean all melee, no, not at all. But a much more balanced list then the all shooty codex chapter armies from C:SM.
According to the fluff we like to deepstrike with JP, we like flamers, and we like melee. And what of this can we do better than any other chapter ? Nothing. So, what are those BA strength you are talking about ? Black rage ? Nice to have, but nothing spectacular.
I've always liked Land Speeders which have been notoriously fragile since forever. Yea they're easy to take out but they punch way above their weight class and that's why I like them. If you run them as anti-tank flankers, hiding them so your larger anti tank models can take the opening salvo, they can come in and cripple or finish off already damaged hard targets. 
