A delay can only be good. Back to Back to Back to Back to Back to Back to Back kickstarters isn't a great way to have successful and supported tabletop wargames.
Triszin wrote: I'm happy they decided on a delay for Deadzone 2.0 and Warpath 2.0. I loved the line and if they can spend an extra year getting better digital/actual sculpts before the kickstarter and verify if they will be in hard plastic all the better.
I really want mantic to become the company that threatens GW, so GW becomes scared. Having competition is nothing but good for the consumers.
You're not alone. For me, Deadzone was a massive disappointment. To be perfectly honest, I had actually completely written them off as a second rate knockoff company. The designs are kinda middle of the road.. similar to stuff from Puppetswar and Studio McVey.. and the rules to Deadzone.. eeesh.. what a travesty. Just the whole thing felt extremely sloppy.
HOWEVER..
I got that first batch of hard plastic zombies.. I think with wave 2 if I remember correctly. That, to me signalled that maybe these guys are capable of rising to a higher level. The gaming community really held their feet to the fire though.. and then bam.. Those Enforcers.. and Forgefathers.. I didn't even want to like the Forgefathers.. my instinct was that they were just an easy gimmick to trope in some Space-Tolkien. Those models are fantastic though, and getting that wave 3, man I wish I'd gone in heavier on some FF now.
The problem with this.. is as far as we can tell.. Mantic does well when, like I said.. we hold their feet to the fire. Left alone, they do things like designing half-wolf jeep things... and we have to do something about those tiny hands and feet.
When they do finally step up the Warpath 2.0, I hope they take the time to really tighten up the rules and production release. I like "hard sci-fi" and having a good default ruleset for that is something a lot of us are looking for.
As for GW being scared..
Change in management, change in policies, knee-jerk overhauls to flagship products, token gestures in mail orders, cashing in their IP with video games.. I dunno.. I would say panic mode is already on them. Mantic are not the only wolves at their door either.
Because I've largely heard quite high praise for Deadzone's rules (apart from possibly the balancing of some units, requiring revisions/errata), I'd be really interested in specifically what you found objectionable about them - it doesn't have to be specific rules or anything, it could be to do with the 'feel' or flow of the game.
For example, some friends of mine really don't like the "comparing successes" system of Dreadball, for a boardgame. Perhaps they haven't played enough of it to become intuitive, but they're far happier rolling against a target number. It breaks mental flow for some reason, and they're much happier rolling a bucket of dice in Arcadia Quest.
The models I think are going to be heavily subjective - I have a massive affection for 90s-era stuff, so I like wonky sculpting if the subject is strange enough. And honestly, value for money is key for me - not least because it makes getting friends into a system much, much easier!
I have to admit I was also very dissapointed with deadzone. Rules seemed decent from what I read of them. Problems with rebs being seemingly useless aside. However after a little time cleaning and assembling some of the models it has set in a box untouched since.
I was also planning on getting into Dreadball after Deadzone but I decided against it and havent backed a mantic kickstarter since. The models were not awful but they were very dissapointing after the long wait.
The restic pieces I recived with wave 1 sapped all enthusiasm I had for the game sadly. Mantic has the potential to create some really great stuff. The hard plastic Undead from Kings of War, the Hard plastic undead from Deadzone (I'm sensing a pattern) but I really hope they cut back on shoveling out kickstarters and focus on fleshing out KOW and Warpath with hard plastic core troops. Warpath has been around for years now and barely has two armies worth of models for it and KOW is coming into its second edition with plenty of troop profiles without models for them (Kingdoms of Men being an obvious and intentional exception)
If its all hard plastic, with tight rules I could certainly see myself getting into warpath in the future. Maybe not enough that I would back another kickstarter but I really want the game to do well.
Yes, I think the (single piece & presassembled) Dreadball Xtreme models are night and day compared to DBO! They are possibly less dynamic, but there's tons of detail and very little in the way of mould lines by comparison. And they're not really bendy at all, unlike Mars Attacks - it helps that they don't have weapons.
It now feels more like an actual board game product - I wonder if they will re-do some of the models for DBO in this style, as that remains the "entry-level" system.
All the hard plastic stuff to come out of deadzone has been really nice! Restic stuff isn't inherently bad, but it is more work to put together than hard plastic. Honestly though The 'Board game" plastic they used for dbx seemed even better than restic. I don't think this material is gone but I don't want to work with it in such large quantities again.
My Hopes for deadzone 2.0:
-Some plastic troops for every faction
-some specialists in the 'board game' restic
-slightly cleaned up rules (alot of weird cases that arn't really explained in the rules, alot addressed in FAQ so getting that into a rule book at least!)
-better rules for 100pt games? A lot of the missions fall apart outside of 70 pts, I'd like a way to scale them.
My only concern's for DZ 2 is that I have very little interest in the 'main box' factions which look like they are going to be veer'myn and pathfinders? Hopefully they have 2 other factions like the first kickstarter.
My biggest hope for DZ2 in terms of the starter box is that it be different enough to justify buying the 'same' game again after ouly a couple of years.
Which, frankly, if it's HP Enforcers vs Veer-Myn, would be fine. No doubling up on stuff from the first box (except terrain, can't have too much of that!) and essentially a whole new Faction Starter with the VM. Sure beats the GW 'have more Marines' starters!
From what I understand, Mantic is not going to use PVC/Restic for anything anymore. Hard plastic for any infantry, metals/resins for characters, and the boardgame plastic for Dreadball/Mars Attacks/Dungeon Saga/boardgames.
I'm also hoping there's no more hybrid kits like the Jotun Urban Demolisher - if they want to add new weapon arms for the Strider, make the out of restic; Stuntbot and Iron Ancestor, resin; whatever they make the new vehicles out of, etc
I suppose resin arms for restic bots and tracks aren't so bad but please, no metal bits, I can't stand that.
NTRabbit wrote: I'm also hoping there's no more hybrid kits like the Jotun Urban Demolisher - if they want to add new weapon arms for the Strider, make the out of restic; Stuntbot and Iron Ancestor, resin; whatever they make the new vehicles out of, etc
I suppose resin arms for restic bots and tracks aren't so bad but please, no metal bits, I can't stand that.
I could see the strider going plastic in the future since it's now used for three factions, would make sense if they were going to be included in a new warpath starter set (Heavily rumoured to have plastic corp troops in it)
I'm happy to hear of their departure from restic. I honeslty can't fathom how people can defend it.. I find it's the biggest pain in the ass to work with.
I personally don't mind metal bits but they do require a bit more work and anything to make modeling easier is good with me
I hope they make the striders plastic.. Those had me so excited and man.. they have big plugs in really really crappy places. I've honestly been afraid to try to clean mine for fear of how the restic will react to removing such large pieces.
Okay.. this next part.. someone specifically asked me what I disliked.. so please.. remember that reading this. I would not have ranted like this if I wasn't specifically asked. I'm not trying to pick a fight or have my opinion swayed. I'm just venting over why I'm pissed off at my $300 pile of paper and restic.
The rules for Deadzone were okay at a first glance.. but there are situations I don't care for.. assaulting elevated units as an example. Armies seem to be designed into a pigeon hole. For instance.. I was asking around about how to actually win with Enforcers and the answer was suppression and play the objectives.. Really? Use the terrain to your advantage was another thing.. okay.. I am not new to tactics. However, when terrain doesn't favor you then what? You just lose because terrain sucked? Plague.. rawr.. my options are run in and assault everything or run in and take the objectives.. and use terrain to your advantage.. Wait.. what? That's it?
Maybe I'm oversimplifying but my own personal experience with the game very much had it feeling like Rock Paper Scissors and rebels.. which is auto-lose. Don't even get me started on how crappy Assault Enforcers are. I was told by numerous people that they're actually quite good.. well.. maybe compared to the other Enforcers.. but compared to where the bar is set by actual assault units.. no.. they suck... hard.
Aside from the rules and lack of a meaningful campaign.. and lack of clarity on equipment.. there were the staggered releases and lack of actual card support. There is actually a thread on the Mantic Forum with instructions to custom print the missing cards. I backed waaaaay too much into that freaking KS to not get the proper cards for everything.. that's a joke and a half.
The cube thing is a neat idea but I think it muddies up the immersion/realism of the game.. which is already pretty low for my own taste.
The people who backed and got a PDF for the expansions.. also a joke.. I spent soooo much on that game and the rules "expansions" which are more like parts of the rulebook that were just not ready in time.. got released as expansions to us? That was extremely off-putting for me. The "art print" was a freaking post card, the counters split while being removed from the sheets (I didn't even have that problem with Sedition Wars), the restic models which have already been lamented. The connectors for the terrain snapping making it very "not modular".
The last few bits of models were literally the only thing about the KS that didn't piss me off. The battlezones are not terible. In fact, for what they are and the kickstarter price they are pretty good.. I would never pay full retail for any of them now though. They're comparable to a Platformer system only Platformer is far cheaper.
Sorry guys.. /rant.
If you're going to try to counterpoint, I just want to tell you I'm probably not going to read it. I've had this conversation with Mantic apologists and from people who genuinely wanted to win me over.. and I tried their suggestions.. and I keep coming back to the same conclusions..
MLaw wrote: If you're going to try to counterpoint, I just want to tell you I'm probably not going to read it.
Thanks for pooping in the pool!
My reasoning for not reading it was explained. If someone has a reasoned response that isn't counterpoint, I could read that.. but when people sit there going through line by line I don't feel like they're actually trying to have a discussion so much as just tell me how wrong I am.
Fair enough. Dude gave his reasons when he was asked why he didn't like it. Thanks Pretre.
Truth be told, I kind of let Deadzone go by the wayside myself, due to the rules. However, the real reason for that was because the Mars Attack rules were much simpler and smoother to get into, straight out of the box, with no fuss involved. My kids were able to play and remain attentive, which would have been quite difficult with Deadzone.
I've enjoyed my Deadzone stuff though. Finished almost all of my Marauders in fact, a large swathe of Plague, and a considerable chunk of Rebs. Haven't touched any Enforcers yet, or any of the bigger stuff like the Striders. Still waiting on my missing Forge Fathers, and have resorted to painting gobs of Mantic dwarfs in their absence.
The kids have REALLY enjoyed the battlezones. We've built modular "cores" of buildings that they stack/ have me clip together, and have had all sorts of playtime with them. To me, the amount of time and enjoyment they got out of the materials has really made me feel I got my money's worth out of this campaign.
I look forward to seeing the DZ 2.0 rules, as I hope it tightens up all the loose ends and gives me a very defined campaign system that's worth continuing to play.
Highlord, have you not had any of the connectors break? I know I'm not alone on them breaking because I've seen others with the exact same problem. Do you have some sort of technique you use to prevent the breakage? I assembled a few buildings with my core set and after a few games I tried to take them back apart and started snapping the connectors.. I tried pushing them out with tools and everything.. I don't mind the terrain like I said.. it's certainly got it's uses. I just can't seem to get mine to actually behave in a modular fashion.
For pushing things out, I usually use the point of one of the lampposts. That tends to work.
For putting the models together, I think a pair of long nose pliers is the best bet.
It's not truly modular, sure. But it's modular enough that, if you wanted to redo your scenery in 6 months time, or remake walkways etc, you can do it quite happily.
I usually only broke connectors when I got lazy and or grumpy.
It's worth saying, I do have some experience with making the terrain...
I used to have them break. For a lot of similar reasons others here mentioned.
I've gotten better at taking them out and putting things back together. I've been trying to put all the tiles inside the game box, and have used those lamp posts along with pliers too.
I've also tried switching out my original DZ clips with the Mars Attack ones. Big difference. I have no idea why either. Those Mars Attacks one have withstood my daughter tearing buildings to pieces and hamfisting her way into smushing them back together, with no breakage at all.
We tend to build tall rather than spread out when we use our DZ stuff too. I like containing everything to one mat, so our gamespaces tend to go up 4 or 5 cubes tall sometimes. I'll have to snap some photos next time we build a sprawl.
Glad to hear Mantic are potentially permanently stepping away form Resic for Warpath/Deadzone, although I think I'm one of the rare few around here that
aren't completely abhorrent to resnic, its not that bad after all. But I do love converting minis to make my armies a bit me personal/unique and Resic is
just god-awful for that, it just doesn't cut well, although the hot water bending is pretty good if limited.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we see plastic Striders in the Deadzone V.02 campaign or very early in the warpath KS. If anything I
could see them adding a 4th variant for the Veer-Myn faction, perhaps a repurposed construction Strider with a Chem-thrower and Power-lifer
(Aliens) style CC claw.
If Mantic could get all that as one HiPs kit were golden.
To be honest I quickly gave up on the idea of talking apart my battle zones and instead glued them together into cool blocks. I'm more than happy with the scenery I've made by ignoring the rebuild aspect
When I opened my box of Mars Attacks, I was almost taken back to my days when I picked up and opened up a few of those MARX Green Army men sets. The stuff is amazing!!!
It's kinda weird.. I told them I was missing my bases for that shipment.. I listed everything that was in it and they sent a gazillion thick restic discs that I haven't seen before. They're all the larger size though. I will probably just use my Sedition Wars bases on them since the techno zombie things are just going to be put on 25mm bevelled bases anyway.
MLaw wrote: It's kinda weird.. I told them I was missing my bases for that shipment.. I listed everything that was in it and they sent a gazillion thick restic discs that I haven't seen before. They're all the larger size though. I will probably just use my Sedition Wars bases on them since the techno zombie things are just going to be put on 25mm bevelled bases anyway.
Those sound like the grey 40mm bases they sent out for the Valkyr bikers, which for some reason did not get the thin black plastic 40mm bases that all the other larger minis got
They are hard plastic, and have been sent with all newer large-size Deadzone stuff! Like Peacekeepers ordered in the 3rd wave, for example. Like them or lump them! I think they fit in better with the solid standard-type bases at least.
I really like the hardback. I kind of wish for a reformat to make it actually feel like a compendium and not just 4 books mashed together... even a single added page to tell you what order the books were in and how many pages they were maybe.... But other than that... pretty sweet. Just the right size too, the 40k 6th edition book was too big, so heavy and chunky, I like the smaller 'comic book sized' MA rulebooks and compendium.
I think we got a good price in the KS then? I only got the pair as part of the large pledge level, but they were 3 for $75 as an add on iirc
Also I got my hardback the other day as well, corners a little dinged thanks to either transit or the postie jamming it into my letterbox, but otherwise nice.
We always tend to get a good price on Mantic stuff during Kickstarters - not least because they're selling the stuff direct and without any packaging, so they must have greatly improved margins!
That $18 Martian Dredd price is funny though - at least in the UK, it's "only" the equivalent of $15.50 and comes with 3 extra dead models.
Also nice to know that there's going to be an easy way to get Supreme Regents, Standard Bearer & Beloss Bel.
Those prices for boardgame style pieces.. BSR gets a pass because it looks to be higher detail but the rest.. haha.. wow.. I actually thought the MAKS prices on the boardgame pieces (I refuse to call them miniatures) and expansions and stuff were bordering on absurd.
I would have paid those prices for actual miniatures. All day and twice on Sunday. Just not what they ended up producing.
The prices do seem high to me, too. 20 bucks per mutant bug is unfeasible in a post-Bones miniature market. At 15 before discount, they would be more attractive. However, it seems like the Tiger Corps are the same price they were in the pledge manager, which means I paid more than I should have. Oh well, I'll just sedition wars a few boxes via Miniature Market's clearance sale.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It occurs to me that Mantic is pricing their minis with an eye towards massive sales, artificially inflating the MSRP so that the miniatures will look far more attractive when reduced to a more realistic price.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The prices do seem high to me, too. 20 bucks per mutant bug is unfeasible in a post-Bones miniature market. At 15 before discount, they would be more attractive. However, it seems like the Tiger Corps are the same price they were in the pledge manager, which means I paid more than I should have. Oh well, I'll just sedition wars a few boxes via Miniature Market's clearance sale.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It occurs to me that Mantic is pricing their minis with an eye towards massive sales, artificially inflating the MSRP so that the miniatures will look far more attractive when reduced to a more realistic price.
I agree with this.. and the bit about catching it on clearance. A lot of their stuff ends up there.. especially on Miniature Market.
They have a lot of good things going as a company but I really don't understand their current version of a business strategy. If you just look at it from face value.. it seems they've shifted their business model to reliance on Kickstarters with post-sales being a secondary thought.
At the flgs, it seems like Mantic products just don't move at MSRP. So they get clearanced, which trains us customers to just wait for the clearance sales.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The prices do seem high to me, too. 20 bucks per mutant bug is unfeasible in a post-Bones miniature market. At 15 before discount, they would be more attractive. However, it seems like the Tiger Corps are the same price they were in the pledge manager, which means I paid more than I should have. Oh well, I'll just sedition wars a few boxes via Miniature Market's clearance sale.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It occurs to me that Mantic is pricing their minis with an eye towards massive sales, artificially inflating the MSRP so that the miniatures will look far more attractive when reduced to a more realistic price.
Bones should not be a comparison to anything. For me it was a throwaway material similar to pencil erasers. It bends, it's squishy, doesn't bond well, and once misshapen I can never get it to repose no matter how much hot water I use.
To me it's right up there with Finecast and Restic, except Reaper actually priced it correctly. Cheap materials should be cheap products.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The prices do seem high to me, too. 20 bucks per mutant bug is unfeasible in a post-Bones miniature market. At 15 before discount, they would be more attractive. However, it seems like the Tiger Corps are the same price they were in the pledge manager, which means I paid more than I should have. Oh well, I'll just sedition wars a few boxes via Miniature Market's clearance sale.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It occurs to me that Mantic is pricing their minis with an eye towards massive sales, artificially inflating the MSRP so that the miniatures will look far more attractive when reduced to a more realistic price.
Bones should not be a comparison to anything. For me it was a throwaway material similar to pencil erasers. It bends, it's squishy, doesn't bond well, and once misshapen I can never get it to repose no matter how much hot water I use.
To me it's right up there with Finecast and Restic, except Reaper actually priced it correctly. Cheap materials should be cheap products.
You've had a bad experience. My Bones minis were mostly great, and I had the bad ones replaced. If you are throwing Bones away, I will pay postage for you to send them to me. After HIPS, Bones is my favorite medium, possibly tied with Mantic's board game plastic. In fact, the two materials seem very similar to me, which might be why I think they should be priced similarly. If Bones is garbage to you, I am honestly surprised you think Mars Attacks minis should be so pricey as they are. That's just mind-blowing.
Huh. I like the bones material. Bendy means almost zero chance of drop breaks, except on the biggest multipart models like cthulu and what not. I'm having no trouble getting paint to stick to it either. And I've had pretty good look straightening stuff out with near-boiling water.
The mars attacks stuff seems to be a slightly stiffer (or much stiffer, depends on the color of mars attacks plastic it seems) variant of the bones material. The details aren't as crisp as infinity, malifaux, gw, or some other companies, but they aren't god-awful bad either. I really like painting my MA stuff.
Cleaning it is a pain though, same with bones. Basically the same technique as restic but with less cursing... not nearly as fun as hard plastic though.
I agree that the MA retail prices are a bit high. Kind of depends on what you're buying them for, but even in a vacuum a box of 10 monopose minis of the softer plastic persuasion is a bit bitter of a pill at $25. Maybe a bit better than buying a lower end sculpting metal squad box, but it could be better too.
Mantic has always seemed to be best when got in bundles or sales/clearance though.
Also that cheap materials should be cheap products... isn't hard plastic one of the cheapest materials? I guess I'm twisting words and you maybe meant cheap production costs... or something.
I just got my Bones II stuff in last week and the dragon from Dragons Don't Share is gorgeous. This batch from the latest Kickstarter underwent a lot more rigorous QA. They also made the mix slightly more rigid.. which I didn't think they were actually going to do.. but it seems to have helped with detail retention on a lot of the pieces.
However, a lot of Bones stuff is a righteous pain right out of the box and a huge percentage of them end up with really soft details.
As far as Mantic.. yeah.. I've learned that there are two major things you need to know about dealing with them.
1) If it's a kickstarter throw in a dollar, wait for pictures of production models, then make your decisions during surveys.
2) Clearance.
I would also throw in never buy their restic but that would rule out Striders and a couple of other things that I really like the designs on.. and are unfortunately only available in that wretched material.
In my mind, Mantic is leveraging a couple of things they have going for them.
First, the KickStarters I'm sure mostly pay for the tooling/sculpting of the models themselves. Maybe not the HIPS stuff fully, but the restic/board-game plastic stuff almost assuredly. This does make it were the secondary sales are somewhat just gravy versus a traditional model where there's an investment that must be recovered with each release. The on-going production costs are comparatively low, and they side-stepped interest and other issues of traditional financing quite neatly. On the flip-side, consumers get to purchase at wholesale prices which works a mild bit in their favor. A decent enough exchange, and it frees Mantic up a bit from the feast-and-famine cycle that plagues smaller companies who can't afford to take a chance on something that may/may not sell.
Second, some of the market leaders (e.g. - GW for miniatures and FFG for boardgames-with-minis) have what some would call absurdly high prices which leaves plenty of space for them to inflate the MSRP a bit with an eye towards Internet discounters. For comparison, the upcoming Rebel Troopers pack for Imperial Assault carries an MSRP of $15 (or $50 for a squad of 10 for even model count comparisons). Board game plastic, monopose, and while they come with lots of bibs and bobs beyond just the figures, how many of those are useful in duplicate is certainly questionable. I don't think I even need to mention GW's prices as being rather high. So for Mantic it's not about "price what they cost", it's about "price where we're not the most expensive" and then they have tons of room to do crazy discounts and the like without having a disastrous effect on their bottom line. Sure, people are conditioned to expect sales and reserve buying outside of them, but if the "crazy insane sale" price point is still turning a profit.........
Where this plan runs awry is in dealing with FLGS, who typically don't like dealing with margins like that, nor with a product where the supplier will undercut you frequently (and at times where you'd normally be doing really good sales such as Christmas). I don't think it's entirely coincidental that Mantic is trying really hard to get FLGSes on board with their referral program, because that's a segment that the above two overall advantages they have become a problem.
However, that's an issue for expanding reach. So long as the bills are getting paid and the work improves, it's hard to say they have a flawed model. There may come a point where KS doesn't bring in the cash they need though, and at that point not having a fallback of a more traditional model could be problematic. Not sure we're at that stage yet, though past performance is not a guarantee of future results, etc. etc.
I think a lot of FLGS have strong resentment towards Kickstarter and companies that continually send product there. I"ve heard both Mantic and Reaper mentioned specifcially. New release sales are usually huge for these types of stores along with pre-orders. A lot of time this pushes retailers away.. or.. forces them to buy in at kickstarter prices just like the rest of us.. just so they can have the merchandise when it hits the streets.
Which leads me to another thing.. When Mantic's practices have set in, it drives up secondary retailers like e-bay stores and whatnot.. who buy into the kickstarter and then undercut Mantic. There's a tiny profit margin for these guys unless they're breaking kits down into bits but I'm seeing a lot of this type of thing. Plastic Enforcers from Deadzone being an example. Those are going for about $15 a sprue on ebay. IIRC in KS they were $5 a sprue. In Mantic's Webstore, they're $20 a sprue.
I can only guess as to the long term effect of this but at first glance, it would seem like they're creating an artificial gap in their sales. Miniature Market, as an actual retailer does appear to be in on this type of sales strategy as well. They have 2 remaining sprues of plastic enforcers at $16ea. I am unsure as to whether or not their pricing will have to go back up when their KS stock runs out but I think it's worth studying, just to see what kind of patterns emerge.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The prices do seem high to me, too. 20 bucks per mutant bug is unfeasible in a post-Bones miniature market. At 15 before discount, they would be more attractive. However, it seems like the Tiger Corps are the same price they were in the pledge manager, which means I paid more than I should have. Oh well, I'll just sedition wars a few boxes via Miniature Market's clearance sale.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It occurs to me that Mantic is pricing their minis with an eye towards massive sales, artificially inflating the MSRP so that the miniatures will look far more attractive when reduced to a more realistic price.
Bones should not be a comparison to anything. For me it was a throwaway material similar to pencil erasers. It bends, it's squishy, doesn't bond well, and once misshapen I can never get it to repose no matter how much hot water I use.
To me it's right up there with Finecast and Restic, except Reaper actually priced it correctly. Cheap materials should be cheap products.
You've had a bad experience. My Bones minis were mostly great, and I had the bad ones replaced. If you are throwing Bones away, I will pay postage for you to send them to me. After HIPS, Bones is my favorite medium, possibly tied with Mantic's board game plastic. In fact, the two materials seem very similar to me, which might be why I think they should be priced similarly. If Bones is garbage to you, I am honestly surprised you think Mars Attacks minis should be so pricey as they are. That's just mind-blowing.
While Mantic's pricing structure isn't ideal (I'll admit that) they're constantly improving their sculpts and plastic quality from what Dreadball (Almost all freaking restic *Shudder*) started with and they do offer deals, bundles, sales, and whatnot from time to time. Even still I don't find the price all that bad compared to industry standards.
Mostly I'm just tired of hearing that Bones is the new saving grace of the industry and is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I've worked with it tried to love it and failed miserably. What i will give it is the price is bang on for what it is, it's a great material for testing and beginning painters, and it strips wonderfully well due to all you have to do is bend it around like Gumby till all the paint falls off, also it's durable as heck.
Still, like I said, even with all my complaints it's still leagues better than Finecast or Restic. I'm just worried that Reaper is trying to start a race to the bottom pricing structure for minis. You know a sort of "Why buy from another company when you can buy bucket loads of subpar stuff from us?". That kind of stuff leads to great consumer prices but horrible times for the companies that produce stuff.
Some of these are pretty good paintjobs but a lot of them are pretty standard tabletop quality.
While the details are not on par with industry leading miniatures, they are definitely above a LOT of the smaller guys out there (Centerstage, Black Cat, that type of company).
I own a lot of Bones now.. but only a few of them are from the first KS. The quality has gone up.. some of the ones I got in.. if I were to paint them up next to their pewter counterpart, you would be hard pressed to figure out which one was the original. I actually do have a few models of both the pewter and Bones.. and if I get time I will in fact do this exact thing. Like I said above.. there are major consistency issues.. but the models that really work well in Bonesium turn out very usable.
The Bonesium (it's PVC right?) material is not superior to metal, quality styrene, or well done resin.. but it IS capable of producing very usable miniatures and not just boardgame wannabe pieces.
This is pretty off topic for a Mantic thread though. .. that said.. if Mantic did go the route of Bones for single piece static pose Mars Attacks and similar.. and priced it like Bones.. I'd be all over it.
I didn't go very far into pledging on Dungeon Saga because of the material.. I do want to own resin copies of a few of the more individual pieces but I personally think their QA allows too much to slip through on the boardgame material they use and it's a major turnoff. If I see some photos from people once the main game ships and we can see actual production copies from actual retail packages.. not hand-picked best of the batch.. then I'll reconsider but after the bad reviews I saw of Mars Attacks boardgame pieces... it's hard to fall in love with.
That's another thing.. they can't make up their mind with Mars Attacks.. they label it as a tabletop/miniatures game but in the same breath refer to it as a boardgame. They get a pass on pricing it like a tabletop game because of this gray area and they get a pass on lax quality in the figures because "eh they're just boardgame pieces". Which is it? Deadzone is very similar in nature and there is no such distinction issue or write-off on quality.
Well since bones minis run 2-3 dollars for a single human sized model... technically the martian/human/tiger corps unit boxes *are* right in line with that.
Mantic does seem to be a little.... crazy?.... about pricing individual models though. Martian Dred for 18 dollars? I realize he comes with the dead figures but even $5 a piece for individual MA figures is a bit much.
Oh and the bug+handler is a bit nuts... would hope to see those at like 10 bucks maybe.. not what they are.
That's retail.
At Mini-Market the 3 packs of bones human infantry will set you back $4.87.
I'm not sure what to look for to compare that to the Mars Attacks packs. On this issue, I'm not trying to argue.. I actually would like to know what the price comparison adds up to.. but like I said I'm not really sure what to look at :/
I see a pre-order for the Tiger Corps Expansion and it's listed at $20 pre-order .. but I can't seem to find any info on what that includes so I can't do a breakdown for comparison.
EDIT: Also.. MSRP On Martian Dredd is $20, not $18.
My mistake on dredd. I knew it was too high is all.
Tiger corps is 10 models, 5 named tiger corps heroes, corax, and 4 bounty hunters. Or something close. Some of the better detail retaining sculpts of the whole release.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Best I can do on math between bones 3packs and MA is 10 3packs vs 3 Ma 10-man sets... ~49 at MM for the 30 bones minis you mention, 60 for 39 MA figures.
Bones is about 16-17% cheaper in that case.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Its personal taste a bit I do feel that tiger corps poop all over something like IMEF, and they scale better with my other models.
Someone know what is the limit date for missing parts claim on deadzone 3rd wave stuff? I did not get any of my stuff yet, and im starting to get worried...
GrimDork wrote: My mistake on dredd. I knew it was too high is all.
Tiger corps is 10 models, 5 named tiger corps heroes, corax, and 4 bounty hunters. Or something close. Some of the better detail retaining sculpts of the whole release.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Best I can do on math between bones 3packs and MA is 10 3packs vs 3 Ma 10-man sets... ~49 at MM for the 30 bones minis you mention, 60 for 39 MA figures.
Bones is about 16-17% cheaper in that case.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Its personal taste a bit I do feel that tiger corps poop all over something like IMEF, and they scale better with my other models.
Yeah, Tiger Corps are not really the ones I'm complaining about, outside of the fact that the PM price was the same as the retail price. Those are probably the best minis out of the whole Mars Attacks KS. However, 5 Stealth Martians/Martian Marines/elites for $20 is a bit ridiculous, though, especially since the Martians seem to be the weakest casts. The bugs are even worse, selling for a price comparable to a Bones dragon. A Bones mini of the same size and complexity would be half the price or less.
The Dwarf Wolf wrote: Someone know what is the limit date for missing parts claim on deadzone 3rd wave stuff? I did not get any of my stuff yet, and im starting to get worried...
I'm just glad I kickstarted Mars Attacks, getting most of the expensive stuff for free or dirt cheap. With the credit system, I basically spent $125 on DZ terrain (which I was going to get anyway) and then got 68 MA minis (base game + bonus minis) for $15. The value on that one was extremely good.
In other news, dbx teams should be getting dbx rules as a download soon. Can't wait to use my Brokkrs!
Apparently Mantic haven't contacted a guy who pledged $700+ for a Design Your Own Figure reward level in the DBX kickstarter, and haven't responded to anything he's sent them. I mean that ended nearly a year ago and has already had two waves of product shipped out. What's going on there, eh?
There seem to be plenty of people who back KS and then forget to fill out the pledge manager (or can't fill it out as they don't have net access for one reason or another)
or
they may not be getting emails from him for whatever reason (eg his email address or whole ISP ended up blacklisted by mantic or their ISP) and he's made no real effort to get in contact by other means as Pretre says Mantic (and Ronnie) do respond on facebook, or via phone or letter
or
there has been contact, but the character the backer wants is one they can't do for one reason or another (IP, taste and decency etc) and there's a behind the scenes deadlock
I heard the telephone was invented a few years ago...
I'm still waiting on my missing Forgefather sprue but they did message me last month to say they are sending one. I did get a replacement model for the one that was missing an arm from the DBX boxed set.
The Dwarf Wolf wrote: Someone know what is the limit date for missing parts claim on deadzone 3rd wave stuff? I did not get any of my stuff yet, and im starting to get worried...
Submit it now. Everything shipped already.
I've been trying to get in touch with Mantic about this for about two months. Best I've managed is two replies saying "hey, we'll get to you soon" followed by radio silence. Cool to see them getting so much new stuff out while they can't manage existing orders.
And while Titan Forge came out of the gate with a bad reputation, Mantic is just too established to be this hard to reach. Reaper's busier but manages to keep in touch pretty much 90% of the time.
My deadzone order went missing due to some kind of error. I think I wound up getting my stuff about 2 months late due to things being out of stock by the time they realized the error.
They did eventually get it all out to me but I never had this problem getting in touch with them though so I can't say much about that...
I always had decent comms. Missing stuff turnaround seems to be getting better too, I got DBX replacements within a week, and with a dispatch notice, too.
Some people are really clumsy with this stuff, too. It's not all on Mantic.
lord_blackfang wrote: I always had decent comms. Missing stuff turnaround seems to be getting better too, I got DBX replacements within a week, and with a dispatch notice, too.
Some people are really clumsy with this stuff, too. It's not all on Mantic.
If you want to ping them for me I'd appreciate it I don't even have broken stuff -- just not enough stuff.
Well, they sent me my missing mvp's/free agents bag and a replacement roster pad, alright - along with a second, identical mvp/agents bag, and two 'frenzy team' bags; I now have 12 limited frenzy dice and double maxed out teams of rebs, sphyr, brokkr, and hobgoblins that I never ordered. Oh Mantic... you never cease to amuse me.
Bolognesus wrote: Well, they sent me my missing mvp's/free agents bag and a replacement roster pad, alright - along with a second, identical mvp/agents bag, and two 'frenzy team' bags; I now have 12 limited frenzy dice and double maxed out teams of rebs, sphyr, brokkr, and hobgoblins that I never ordered.
Oh Mantic... you never cease to amuse me.
Well, if you wanna sell any of those extra maxed out teams for cheap, let me know Doug
Bleh, still waiting on a response to the missing parts form I sent in October last year.. the annoying thing is, I also asked in the form if I could purchase a few extra things and I'm sure when they get back to me in the summer, they'll be all like "Oh, yeah, well you could have done if only you asked us sooner. We ran out of those in December 2014!"
In March we are going to be unveiling the secrets behind Exham IV and the infestation that has blighted the planet…
We'll be holding a week on the Mantic Blog starting on Monday 16th March, dedicated to Deadzone. This will include the launch of the new community website.
To get you in the mood you can exclusively download The Hunt by Michael Grey for free. This Deadzone short story is part of our Containment Protocols compilation or Digital Compendium available through Mantic Digital. Give it a read and keep an eye out for Deadzone Week starting 16th March! *Squeek*
I'm hoping it will include a revised rulebook that will include the Psi and other stuff.. Still not happy with how that worked out.
It's likely I'll back it for odds and ends. I know it's a precursor to Warpath but too much foreplay just leads to sore feelings.
Sweet the only things on that list I have remote interest in are DZ2.0 and Warpath if it happens. Good deal!
I *really* hope the Warpath tanks end up having a unique/harder scifi/higher tech aesthetic or a certain Russian company is going to be getting a bulk order from me instead. I really hope they drop the whole look-like-gw-sponsons-are-a-thing-in-the-future approach. Just thinking on the 2.0 rules that's all. With any luck that gets thrown out along with classifying and statting the new biggie-sized Striders as something a bit more tank-like and not as overpriced weaker-than-peacekeeper units what with a bigger gun.
Look what’s coming to a Deadzone near you… If you’ve been looking for some great female sci-fi minis, your prayers have been answered!
Here’s an eclusive just for BoLS readers!
Manticgames is launching their Deadzone: Infestation Kickstarter in March and sent over a taste of just some of the minis that will be in there. These Pathfinders are coming in hard plastic on sprue and will have many additional bits including heads and more.
I think you can see the quality of Mantic sculpts keeps going up and up. In particular the female figure is very well done, with the subtle changes to the bodyshape to reflect gender. Regardless of whether you are a Deadzone fan, or just want to spruce up your minis collection, these Pathfinders should fill the bill.
I like them alot. What is the thing under the rifle barrel though? Some kind of n00b t00b? But the opening on the end of it looks a bit small for 'nades.
GrimDork wrote: I like them alot. What is the thing under the rifle barrel though? Some kind of n00b t00b? But the opening on the end of it looks a bit small for 'nades.
This is probably nowhere near accurate.. but.
If they are firing high velocity rounds, I could see those being recoil compensators/stabilizers.
In my mind it's something like the ones on hunting bows
I could be waaaaaaay off base.. in fact, I'd bet on it just being an awkward underbarrel system of some kind like the aformentioned tag system.
GrimDork wrote: I like them alot. What is the thing under the rifle barrel though? Some kind of n00b t00b? But the opening on the end of it looks a bit small for 'nades.
This seems like a really odd idea to put it in March. Are they sure they really want to do that? There are a lot of other KS going at that time and no matter how unique/different this one may be from the others, it is still going to cut into their profits a fair bit. You can only have so many big name KS going on at once until they all start to hurt each other. I think they should wait till April, even April 1st would be better. Oh well, not my call but if they do it in March, not sure I am going to bother to pledge/ have any money to do so.
ClockworkChaos wrote: This seems like a really odd idea to put it in March. Are they sure they really want to do that? There are a lot of other KS going at that time and no matter how unique/different this one may be from the others, it is still going to cut into their profits a fair bit. You can only have so many big name KS going on at once until they all start to hurt each other. I think they should wait till April, even April 1st would be better. Oh well, not my call but if they do it in March, not sure I am going to bother to pledge/ have any money to do so.
Could it perhaps be so they can get it out in time for Xmas? DZ1 was around May/end of April and launched(properly) the following Jan/Feb, so assuming similar lead times for the first wave, a March KS would get it out just in time for Christmas. That way, they have Dungeon Saga as their 'Summer Blockbuster', DBX tiding them over until then, and can put out DZ2 for Christmas. That way, people get the plastics in their hands, in time for them to go all-in on a Warpath KS early next year.
All speculation, but that could have something to do with it.
It might be intentional too. The latest Kings of War kickstarter seemed to be very much managed to make sure not to go huge. Mantic probably have a similar scale for this one.
ClockworkChaos wrote: This seems like a really odd idea to put it in March. Are they sure they really want to do that? There are a lot of other KS going at that time and no matter how unique/different this one may be from the others, it is still going to cut into their profits a fair bit. You can only have so many big name KS going on at once until they all start to hurt each other. I think they should wait till April, even April 1st would be better. Oh well, not my call but if they do it in March, not sure I am going to bother to pledge/ have any money to do so.
Could it perhaps be so they can get it out in time for Xmas? DZ1 was around May/end of April and launched(properly) the following Jan/Feb, so assuming similar lead times for the first wave, a March KS would get it out just in time for Christmas. That way, they have Dungeon Saga as their 'Summer Blockbuster', DBX tiding them over until then, and can put out DZ2 for Christmas. That way, people get the plastics in their hands, in time for them to go all-in on a Warpath KS early next year.
All speculation, but that could have something to do with it.
Fair point. That being said, it does seem like they are going to launch it at the end of March. Wouldn't just waiting another week for some of the other KS to clear out, let people recover and at least get another paycheck in help their overall bottom line? I mean we all know its going to go crazy and be a success but it could be a bigger success by waiting a week or so. Also, I have always kind of wondered this but since Mantic knows this is going to succeed do they really need to wait for all the money to come in, couldn't they just do some ball-parking after a few days and go from there? That way they wouldn't loose anytime in the production step even if they did delay it by a week.
I like the looks of that female Enforcer. Can't tell if they're wearing sleeves this time around though.
I'm also REALLY hoping that the Enforcer drop ship will be a part of this Kickstarter rather than the Warpath one.
I'm also rather curious what other factions they're going to include. Because we all know that Mantic A)doesn't actually do small Kickstarters and B)they've yet to do one that only has two factions available.
I think the goal of DZ2.0 is to get hard plastic troop sprues in line for various factions, which would allow WP to focus on tanks, bundles, and expanding specialists/factions/whatever.
I definitely would like some redesigned plastic Corporation troops. Shame I'll have to wait on them. Were the new Forgefather Steel Warriors going to show up here, or are they coming later as well?
Sphyr that retain the aesthetic of the Dreadball team would be absolutely badass, but they're already covered in the Rebs. Though, I wouldn't mind seeing them do various specific race expansions for the Rebs.
I would buy a few steel warriors. I've got a bunch of the half and half dudes and I still like them, basically the same kit but all scifi would get some of my money.
I won't say no to hard plastic corp marines either but.... i just dunno. I don't want any if they look like the corporation marine zombies you can make out of the zombie kit. Those things have heads at least twice the size of a corporation marine... I mean bulging muscles and whatnot is one thing.. but the helmets are *huge* comparatively. I don't want corporation marines with helmets that big and such wonky proportions. Though if they match the current guys, it'll make their zombie kit seem a bit weird. Not sure whats going down there.
The photos above are Enforcer pathfinders, they belong to the Enforcer faction and technically to the larger GCPS/Corporation faction. While not linked in the last couple of days, the whole point of the next deadzone KS is the Veermyn, making the name infestation appropriate since they're human sized anthropomorphic rat people.
The two factions in the starter box/game box/core buy-in will be enforcer pathfinders and veermyn.
Not that multiple human factions would be a bad thing, but the pathfinders belong to a preexisting faction, as a lighter infantry/scout unit.
How about this time they save the human factions until last and make all those great alien factions first?
Surely if more human factions is such a popular choice they should be saved for when the funds need a massive boost? Sarcasm!
GrimDork wrote: I really hope they drop the whole look-like-gw-sponsons-are-a-thing-in-the-future approach.
The best way to replace the sponsons is with unmanned remote weapon systems. Mount one of those on each side of the tank, and it could plausibly be for hosing down any infantry stupid enough to think they can sneak up on the tank.
I'm glad Mantic are releasing more hard plastic stuff for Deadzone, but I wish the Plague would get some of the attention. The old Plague models looks (mostly) ridiculous compared to the new Enforcers.
I guess I really need to open and go through my W3 stuff pretty soon. Not too worried about a new KS. $1 buy-in and go up if I can afford it, PM Wave 1 (or 2, or 3) if not.
Aliens vs. Aliens is a hard sell for a boxed game, a human faction in there makes it easier to relate to.
Also, with the pathfinders in hard plastic, Enforcers will have almost 100% hard plastics coverage in place for their faction before the Warpath KS even starts. And some of us will have painted armies already sorted.
Not sure if everything from Deadzone will make it to Warpath, some of the more niche restic and metal stuff (special characters, sentry guns etc.) might not be suited to it.
Were the new Forgefather Steel Warriors going to show up here, or are they coming later as well?
Most likely the Warpath Kickstarter for those. The sculpts are already done, and have been for a while.
I am not sure on the timeline for Infestation, think it might be a while off, possibly April?
I disagree, I think it's humans are an easy option that wouldn't sell well as a stand alone so it gets chucked in the box instead, and a sadly GW inspired style decision.
Mantic have come up with some amazing alien races, they'd have no trouble selling in a boxed game.
Break the mold Mantic!
Joyboozer wrote: I disagree, I think it's humans are an easy option that wouldn't sell well as a stand alone so it gets chucked in the box instead, and a sadly GW inspired style decision.
Mantic have come up with some amazing alien races, they'd have no trouble selling in a boxed game.
Break the mold Mantic!
It's not quite as clear cut as that.
Humans act as a grounding element. To a new customer, this world of myriad new species and silly names has utterly no meaning. But humans - you know what a human is. So it's an opening into the world - then people break off and find their space. This is why sci-fi games tend to open with humans and why every GW starter set has space marines.
Mantic is trying/hoping to attract new customers in the way that GW used to and has abandoned. This will include younger players, and so Humans vs Aliens in Desperate Battle is a narrative that almost anyone can relate to.
The alternative would be to do a series of two player starter sets to cover all options, to stop the inevitable "but why isn't my alien race in a box", but that vastly increases the number of SKUs, which is something stores hate.
Finally got to go through all my DZ W2/3 shipment over the weekend. I was shocked to discover the only error was that, although they sent me the missing FG sprue in W3, they didn't send one at all in W2 (I believe I get two due to getting the full Starter + 2x Booster + Specialist deal). Considering I had random arms, heads etc missing from within packets for W1, I was pleasantly surprised, and with mission control it didn't take me any where near as long to check either.
The thing is DZ already gave us a box of Human vs Alien. So Couldn't DZ 2 be something different? I'm sure lots of people are interested in aliens exclusively.
Personally I like the enforcers when they are covered in powered armour but don't really care to see any with uncovered human parts.
I thought it was nice of Mantic that when I needed a replacement Natalya (the Novas Virae lady standing on one leg?), they tossed in a whole other bag of Novas Virae.
I think my Deadzone pledge is finally, completely, OFFICIALLY done. Just in time for the next KS, right?
Still unsure just how many Forge Fathers I'm supposed to have. I'd gotten a starter and a booster. 10 Forge Guard? Not even sure.
Lukez wrote: The thing is DZ already gave us a box of Human vs Alien. So Couldn't DZ 2 be something different? I'm sure lots of people are interested in aliens exclusively.
I agree it would be nice, but I think for sales to young folks, you really need the "heroic" humans. Plus, it looks like the Enforcers are poised to become for Deadzone what Space Marines are for 40k. That is, the flagship faction and the frequently-seen protagonists who of course are (mostly) human.
I've personally got no interest in the enforcers, but I think the strategy above it makes the best sense business-wise for Mantic.
Not sure when they'll release them to the general public, but the Veer-myn sculpts for Infestation look very nice. It's been a while since I saw them, but I'm definitely looking forward to getting a few sets of them.
They seem to be taking a step away from the "scrap and rags" appearance, and now look like they're wearing actual vacuum-sealable suits. The guns also look much more like they're chemical flamethrowers than gothic rayguns.
darkPrince010 wrote: Not sure when they'll release them to the general public, but the Veer-myn sculpts for Infestation look very nice. It's been a while since I saw them, but I'm definitely looking forward to getting a few sets of them.
They seem to be taking a step away from the "scrap and rags" appearance, and now look like they're wearing actual vacuum-sealable suits. The guns also look much more like they're chemical flamethrowers than gothic rayguns.
How you tease with those words. For shame.
These new ones still may end up hanging out with my Skyre guys though...
I'm not sure I'll ever warm up to the idea of space rats. Granted, I'm not a big fan of the Skaven idea either, so maybe I'm just not in the demographic.
I am looking forward to this one even if I don't get insane like I did with DeadZone 1.0 mainly because I won't let Scarletsquig talk me into it this time.
There've been two Veer-myn renders floating around on the internet since the last Mantic open day, as well as a concept drawing of a large rat monster called a "beast." Here's one of the renders:
I'm guessing Mantic insiders have seen quite a bit more than this image and the other two I mentioned?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Beasts of War just put up some new Veer-myn renders, including what looks like a heavy weapons guy:
They also posted the other render I mentioned that's been circulating since the last open day:
So far I still prefer Remy's restic Veer-myn, (I prefer the original less-streamlined, ragged, covered-arms look), but these aren't bad at all. I'll be on board for at least a base pledge including Veer-myn and Pathfinder starters whenever the KS launches. Beasts of War is also saying it will happen sometime this month, incidentally.
Those are all the renders I've seen for the Veer-myn.
I like the new high-tech look, it makes them a more credible threat and ties in better with their new background material (which I can't talk about, but Mantic probably will fairly soon).
I like the new high-tech look, it makes them a more credible threat and ties in better with their new background material (which I can't talk about, but Mantic probably will fairly soon).
I like the new high-tech look, it makes them a more credible threat and ties in better with their new background material (which I can't talk about, but Mantic probably will fairly soon).
Hmm... Can you confirm or deny that the name will be changing?
One thing I'm cautiously optimistic for is that both the Veer-myn and Pathfinder renders look well-suited to having single-piece hips with both legs already attached, like the Plague zombies. The hard plastic enforcers with two independent legs that fit best in a particular configuration with a particular torso are a bit of a pain.
I like the new high-tech look, it makes them a more credible threat and ties in better with their new background material (which I can't talk about, but Mantic probably will fairly soon).
Hmm... Can you confirm or deny that the name will be changing?
There was a petition from, basically, all the different rules committees.......the end result hasn't been made known (at least not to the committees, individuals may know).
When something new of importance gets posted here that everyone is talking about, can someone (anyone) click the 'notify moderator' button on the first post where that thing is mentioned and in the comments field just say something along the lines of: 'please update thread title with this info'.
That way a moderator can update the thread's title to say what page the newest discussion starts on, so anyone interested in the new Mantic hotness can figure out where to jump right in even if they haven't been keeping up with this thread regularly.
- Sprue of hard plastic counters.
- Sprue of hard plastic crates, just as good as the DBX ones (they are awesome).
- Light Infantry Veer-myn sprue with lots of options.
- Heavy Infantry Veer-myn sprue with lots of options.
- Pathfinder sprue.
- Industrial Battlezone.
- Completely new set of rules which cut down on the complexity, keeping the good stuff like the grid, simple LoS etc. Somewhere in-between DZ 1 and Mars Attacks in terms of complexity.
- Card quick reference sheet.
- New mat design.
That's for starters, making the set have quality components before moving on to:
The initial launch was rushed and low quality, the second KS will offer a chance to go over the entire range again while introducing a new faction, new setting. With the added bonus of getting some serious groundwork in place before the Warpath Kickstarter.
The chances of this happening in DZ2 are unfortunately in "Hail Mary" territory, which makes me sad as they're my favourite DZ models and I definitely want an army for WP, even though we haven't had the list for play-testing yet.
Iwould agree with all of that figure-wise except the Rebs; rather than see a generic 'human' sprue (as much as it would be great for doing an army of Browncoats!), I'd rather see something with 3 humanoid setups (with various alien heads/arms to create humanoids) and then a couple of more outright alien body types, maybe one Grogan-sized for a Heavy Gunner and one Soark/Yndij-sized for a scout/infiltrator-type unit. By far the best thing about the Rebs compared to almost any other sci-fi range out there is that they are a complete hodge-podge of different alien races, I think the sprue needs to represent that to do really well for DZ and especially WP (where I would really rather see mixed units based on role than forced 'Grogan' unit or 'Human unit' setups)
As for rules, I honestly hope they don't change much. I certainly don't want to have to rebuy anything I already have, so I don't want any of the current profiles to change. The core rules seem fine to me, I could perhaps see stuff like cards or Command points being made optional 'advanced rules' for faster games, but I really wouldn't want to see anything outright cut or drastically altered.
The problem with mixed race sprues is that you're basically giving up the main advantage of HIPS, modularity. What is the point of having one of each alien on there? You'll end up with a horde of identical Grogans, identical Yndij, etc and end up with an army that actually looks worse than if you just had 3 different poses in restic.
lord_blackfang wrote: The problem with mixed race sprues is that you're basically giving up the main advantage of HIPS, modularity. What is the point of having one of each alien on there? You'll end up with a horde of identical Grogans, identical Yndij, etc and end up with an army that actually looks worse than if you just had 3 different poses in restic.
Like I said, Grogan/Yndij-size, rather than just one configuration. So your big or little guys can still be in different species with head/arm options. For example, you could have a Grogan-sized gunner with an ape-like head (think Infinity Morats) or something reptillian, similar options for the smaller one. And then the humanoids obviously have different heads/arms in various configurations.
Basically, the WGF Survivors sprue but for Aliens.
- Sprue of hard plastic counters.
- Sprue of hard plastic crates, just as good as the DBX ones (they are awesome).
- Light Infantry Veer-myn sprue with lots of options.
- Heavy Infantry Veer-myn sprue with lots of options.
- Pathfinder sprue.
- Industrial Battlezone.
- Completely new set of rules which cut down on the complexity, keeping the good stuff like the grid, simple LoS etc. Somewhere in-between DZ 1 and Mars Attacks in terms of complexity.
- Card quick reference sheet.
- New mat design.
That's for starters, making the set have quality components before moving on to:
The initial launch was rushed and low quality, the second KS will offer a chance to go over the entire range again while introducing a new faction, new setting. With the added bonus of getting some serious groundwork in place before the Warpath Kickstarter.
My wishlist has a lot of similar points, tho I could take or leave the new factions so I'd much rathe rhave the other sprues you listed, Though I'm not sold on a rebel humans sprue, would be good for warpath I suppose. I think they really dropped the ball when deciding against the cypher sprue for dz1, it would have been much better for them in the long run.
I would also like to see a rules rewrite though more for a cleanup than a simplified version(two version would be ok though!) Certain things just don't make sense, like the beast rule which is totally useless since units with no shoot score can't pickup anyway. I'd also like to see better support for migher points games, code 13 rules break a lot of the missions, especially the item gathering and objective missions.
My (probably unlikely) hope is that we will get Crystallens as a faction, I can see them having some really neat beast/weapons that could be showcased in DZ.
lord_blackfang wrote: The problem with mixed race sprues is that you're basically giving up the main advantage of HIPS, modularity. What is the point of having one of each alien on there? You'll end up with a horde of identical Grogans, identical Yndij, etc and end up with an army that actually looks worse than if you just had 3 different poses in restic.
Like I said, Grogan/Yndij-size, rather than just one configuration. So your big or little guys can still be in different species with head/arm options. For example, you could have a Grogan-sized gunner with an ape-like head (think Infinity Morats) or something reptillian, similar options for the smaller one. And then the humanoids obviously have different heads/arms in various configurations.
Basically, the WGF Survivors sprue but for Aliens.
While I would love a mixed aliens sprue I don't think this method would work great. The body types are just too different, the only ones maybe close enough would be human and yndiij.
Except different heads. And different arms. And subtly built pouches that can go over the hole in the back of the coat that would be where an optional tail could go. And cut the body at the knees to allow for boots or alien feet. They have a huge opportunity here. And those are only the thoughts that existed in the span of a minute.
Seems like rebs would do better with like a team of yndij infiltrators, sorak shock troops, human basic line infantry, maybe grogan engineering/support team.
For warpath rules maybe adding a weapon to a to human infantry sqaud you'd get a grogan heavy or could take a tk/zero team.
timetowaste85 wrote: Except different heads. And different arms. And subtly built pouches that can go over the hole in the back of the coat that would be where an optional tail could go. And cut the body at the knees to allow for boots or alien feet. They have a huge opportunity here. And those are only the thoughts that existed in the span of a minute.
I just can't see it being possible without the end product looking like absolutely terrible mish mash of compromises
I could see alternate funny heads for multi-pose humans working okay.
But not a single Grogan body with different funny heads. It's still the same pose.
The WGF Survivor sprue isn't exactly a great example - most of the models there can only be build one way (different heads aside), some have a second set of arms on the accessory sprue, but that's it. Once you've built one of each guy, the variety mostly stops.
^Without greenstuff and some talent, which is pretty much why I talked myself out of buying the box. I'm too much of a snowflake to wanna make them all stock.
timetowaste85 wrote: Except different heads. And different arms. And subtly built pouches that can go over the hole in the back of the coat that would be where an optional tail could go. And cut the body at the knees to allow for boots or alien feet. They have a huge opportunity here. And those are only the thoughts that existed in the span of a minute.
Exactly.
Look at the Cantina scene in A New Hope, or the prison scene in Guardians of the Galaxy, everyone there is a human in pretty simple prosthetics (in terms of what they alter) and yet you get a very diverse looking array of aliens that share the same body type, with the main difference in head/hands. Something like that would be fine and very doable, I think. Yes, some of it could be achieved by just painting humans different colours, but dedicated options would be easier.
While specific aliens in certain roles might work in a 5-man strike team, I honestly think the whole idea of a multi-species coalition with as many races as the Rebs would be wasted if, in a whole army, certain species get pigeonholed into certain jobs.
lord_blackfang wrote: I could see alternate funny heads for multi-pose humans working okay.
Yep, it's what I suggested for Gates of Antares way back when. To put it in Mass Effect terms, you make a single sprue for both Asari and human women wearing the same style of armour, and put enough heads on the sprues to support both.
The problem with this is that the currently established reb races aren't all exactly humanoid, and it's why I like them. Sorak have 4 arms no feet, and walk differently to people, grogan are fairly larger, Yndij have reversed joints don't they? Zees are half-sized, terratons are giant turtle people... none of the currently existing rebs races are the same profile as a human. It seems like they'd have to make an extremely fiddly multipart kit to allow you to change out the hands, heads, feet, optional tails.... for every model on the sprue.
The whole headswap/paint a different color like Star Trek aliens would be kind of boring to me, personally, I really liked that the rebs existed outside that. Could just be that the diverse arrangement of the rebs doesn't suit a larger scale battle, by nature they operate on battlefields of the Deadzone size--there probably aren't enough of them to even have armies thereof.
I'm pretty curious to see which route they take, and if they manage to pull off this jigsaw puzzle some of you are after then all the better I suppose
GrimDork wrote: The problem with this is that the currently established reb races aren't all exactly humanoid, and it's why I like them. Sorak have 4 arms no feet, and walk differently to people, grogan are fairly larger, Yndij have reversed joints don't they? Zees are half-sized, terratons are giant turtle people... none of the currently existing rebs races are the same profile as a human. It seems like they'd have to make an extremely fiddly multipart kit to allow you to change out the hands, heads, feet, optional tails.... for every model on the sprue.
The whole headswap/paint a different color like Star Trek aliens would be kind of boring to me, personally, I really liked that the rebs existed outside that. Could just be that the diverse arrangement of the rebs doesn't suit a larger scale battle, by nature they operate on battlefields of the Deadzone size--there probably aren't enough of them to even have armies thereof.
Let me put it this way: you are not getting the existing Reb species on a mixed sprue. You're just not, unless you make the sprue utter gak to enable it. If you want hard plastic Terratons you should wait until Mantic can afford to do them properly, and not just waste resources on a half-assed sprue that does nothing well.
When did I ever say that I wanted a mixed sprue? I just said it seemed a bit daft to add several new races when the rebs already have half a dozen or more cool races that are actually alien.
My original suggestion is that each of the main rebs races would need it's own sprue to come out worth a damn.
Neither of the two options I've seen here would work given how rebs currently are. You can't make parts interchangeable for sorak/grogan/yndij, and why in the world would they make up a bunch of generic races that were humans+headswap. Just buy some 3rd party heads for that.
I'm still thinking the diverse nature of the rebs really doesn't lend itself to the 40k-scaled game, unless you're going to have separate units and boxes for each type. Human line troopers, yndij scouts, grogan heavies, etc blah blah. The mix n' match you get in deadzone is great but it makes less sense to me on a larger scale.
The models in Deadzone by and large almost all grouped by race and weapon type, anyway. Heavy weapons on Grogans, blasters on Soraks, etc. I think the basic rifle is shared between Humans and Yndij, but that's about it. One sprue for each type, and Deadzone will be a mix of them all.
GrimDork wrote: What, Alpharius, you like hairless rats? Like those hypoallergenic cats? Who are you, Dr Evil? Might explain a few things.... Ehh, they're ok as rendered. If any of us want more fur, it's one of the easier things to sculpt/press mold.
You're a madman! Well, you'd have to be a madman to be willing to sculpt hair on to a large horde of space rat models.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
scarletsquig wrote: My DZ2 wishlist:
- Sprue of hard plastic crates, just as good as the DBX ones (they are awesome).
Should they not just be able to recycle the DBX ones if they're any good? It'd save money on tooling, etc - and make it easier all round on their end.
They kind of have explosion counters on the underside of the lids... but yeah I mean if it were an add-on option that could kind of solve some problems.
scarletsquig wrote: My DZ2 wishlist:
- Sprue of hard plastic crates, just as good as the DBX ones (they are awesome).
Should they not just be able to recycle the DBX ones if they're any good? It'd save money on tooling, etc - and make it easier all round on their end.
I bought extra DBX ones purely for this reason. 6 packs of 'em iirc, can't go wrong with that stuff. If they make another set I'll pick a bunch of those up too I imagine haha.
I nearly jumped onto the DBX KS just for the crates, but the shipping for them alone was silly. If they're on the DZ2 KS I'll definately be all over them.
I always pledge the maximum i'm willing to spend on the first day to help with momentum. If they fail to impress me by close, I reduce later while things are still moving along.
Somewhat excited. Not a lot of money to throw around, but I also know better than to get duplicates of stuff unless I'm sure I want them this time. I somewhat regret getting 2x strike team as a lot of that will sit in stasis forever... but still looking forward to this.
Yeah, the most I can pledge isn't going to be a lot. It'll be floating on the card till it gets paid off but I do like a good Mantic kickstarter... And some of the add-ons were genuinely a *lot* cheaper during the campaign. Stuntbot, pathfinder, striders especially.
DS was a mini KS and look how that turned out I think they will fund Veer-Myn, Pathfinders, Industrial terrain and a lot more besides.
My guess of the 20th was correct and I happen to have the day off work I've been putting money aside for this since Christmas - although the euro dollar exchange rate has me wondering if I go all in now or split 50/50 between KS and PM in the hope the rate improves later (but money in pocket is easily spent)
I found out the 20th is a student free day, so I'll be sitting and listening to a bunch of old school marms prattling on while furiously smashing the F5 key on my laptop.
In a perfect world some of these veermyn would be able to sneak their way into my Clan Skyre engineer ranks for other skirmish games we like to play.
pretre wrote: Who is going to take charge of this one? If no one else, I'm sure I can give it a shot.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, what's our chance of getting a V2.0 of the rules/stat cards on this one?
Go for it! You could make a new thread now if you like since it launches in a week. I'll be too busy be with the rules dev on this one to manage a thread.
No idea on v2 of the rules/ stat cards currently, rules committee has made lots of good suggestions for the current deadzone ruleset, but we haven't gotten hold of any new material to critique or test. We know just as much as everyone else currently, since our main task is to critique and balance rulesets as they are written, rather than creating them from scratch.
I did hear from a friend who chatted to a Mantic staffer at a tournament that they are considering re-writing the whole thing, possibly removing the grid and overhauling a lot of other stuff. Apparently it has been through a lot of internal playtesting at Mantic and they are looking to roll it out to see what the public think. Take that with a heaping dose of salt though, since it's a third-hand rumour, and I haven't seen anything to confirm it.
We will all know for sure in a week, one way or the other! Really looking forward to it.
Hmm, I dunno whats wrong with the grid itself, though removing it would make my current jungle themed board a lot more usable for DZ...
The grid does seem like a big part of it, not measuring is cool. Although...measuring ranges never killed anyone either. Could go with some kind of range sticks like x-wing and similar... though you'd need kind of big ones.
pretre wrote: Who is going to take charge of this one? If no one else, I'm sure I can give it a shot.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, what's our chance of getting a V2.0 of the rules/stat cards on this one?
Go for it! You could make a new thread now if you like since it launches in a week. I'll be too busy be with the rules dev on this one to manage a thread.
No idea on v2 of the rules/ stat cards currently, rules committee has made lots of good suggestions for the current deadzone ruleset, but we haven't gotten hold of any new material to critique or test. We know just as much as everyone else currently, since our main task is to critique and balance rulesets as they are written, rather than creating them from scratch.
I did hear from a friend who chatted to a Mantic staffer at a tournament that they are considering re-writing the whole thing, possibly removing the grid and overhauling a lot of other stuff. Apparently it has been through a lot of internal playtesting at Mantic and they are looking to roll it out to see what the public think. Take that with a heaping dose of salt though, since it's a third-hand rumour, and I haven't seen anything to confirm it.
We will all know for sure in a week, one way or the other! Really looking forward to it.
I really hope this is true.. I hate hate hate the grid thing. It's a neat idea but imposes some incredibly ridiculous situations and makes elevation a nightmare unless you are only using official deadzone plastic terrain. The sad thing is, people who backed the first one and got a rulebook will basically have a pointless stack of paper. Yeah that's true for any new edition but like I said from the first time I read the final print.. it was not ready. I sincerely hope that they dot and cross the appropriate letters before sending this next edition to press. I also am hoping that close combat is overhauled. IMO you're either amazing at it or utterly horrible at it in the current set up, with very little margin for anything other than those very polarized sides.
I guess.. yeah.. I'm excited that the rules are changing. I don't play Deadzone, despite liking the concept and most of the miniatures.
Personally, I hope the core rules stay largely untouched, maybe with a few tweaks/clarifications, and the focus here is on expanding upon the rather great core of the game, adding new stuff rather than changing what's already there. Similarly, I hope we don't get new cards/decks for existing models, the current ones are fine.
Whether it's GW or Mantic, I really hate the idea of paying again for rules I've already bought.
Totally agree with Paradigm on this one, with the caveat that I have not played more than 30 games and in my gaming circles nobody has tried to be game breaking or WAAC.
GrimDork wrote: Although...measuring ranges never killed anyone either
Measuring and not measuring is the difference between getting some friends to play it, and it never leaving the shelf. Using a tape measure instead of a boardgame like grid is a deal breaking hurdle.
The grid makes DZ unique. Dropping it would be a terrible idea. As it is, it needs some rebalancing, maybe a few rules changes (Im looking at you, blast... <.< )
Stream line some things, maybe reduce counter clutter a bit. And fix the campaign system a bit.
(I also wouldt mind if vehicles were changed a bit, I always felt as if they should have relatively low survive, no tough, but loads of armour... would make high AP weapons a lot more useful)
I have played so many games using a tape measure watching my opponent moving whilst going through my head is 'did he just move more than he should have'
The grid is awesome, same as Blood Bowl, you move X squares/cubes there is no grey area its black and white.
For me it takes so much frustration out of the game
