Cheers for the confirmation that the NB is just a lot more badass. I agree that the VD's model is far cooler though. I want to add more billowing cloak-type stuff to my Nightbringer, plus some lightning, to bring it up to that level. Will be a challenge.
The VD is also on a far larger base, which is a disadvantage. NB gets to sneak around on a 40mm one so it can fit in much smaller places.
It can be argued that a larger base is an advantage for range of powers to the sides and behind. A Nightbringer's ideal targets are big expensive monsters, heavy elite infantry and characters whereas the VD's ideal targets are vehicles but is also pretty decent against monsters and elite infantry as well. You can make a case that as a faction we are worse at dealing with vehicles than elite infantry. Light tanks and transports are becoming a bigger part of the meta now so it's not a waste to bring one.
I prefer the VD for the versitility and being slightly harder to kill. Had difficulty building the model though
The issue between the two is the VD is meant to kill vehicles and the NB is meant to kill single model deadly things. But the way they made the VD kill vehicles, the NB is just as good outside of the self-heal potentially tipping him over the threshold to require another full phase to kill. Which ive had happen, it sometimes makes people flatout ignore the VD. That doesnt normally happen though, he needs to either be sitting at 5w when your turn begins for example or facing someone with multiple tiny vehicles (i.e. Orks or Admech really) and kill multiples in one go. Not something to plan on happening.
I think what they should have done is A) the VD's power should be D3+3 against vehicles not D6 mortals and B) NB's power should have reduced effect against vehicles. Cause right now they step on each other too much, and 3D3 mortals on a 4+ each is better than a 2+ check for a single D6imo Even in Melee, the VD basically bumps up to "slightly better" than the NB's normal strike. But lacks the invul killing part so its still inferior. Yeah vehicles usually dont have a melee invul but the more elite dreads often do.
I'd certainly be in favour of the VD (and Deceiver, and T.Ctan) getting a buff rather than the NB being nerfed against vehicles, considering they are all overpriced by around 50 points anyways IMO. But it's not going to happen for at least a few years
I'd love to try out the Deceiver. It looks like you have to build an army around him though. Combining him with eternal expansionists you'd have enormous flexibility on deployment. He's also a great way to get 10 Lychguard into reserve to use the night scythe strat.
What loadout would you take? I'm not sure any of them are ideal
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I'm hoping we get a big points drop on the deceiver and a moderate one on the VD when the next points fix happens.
Wonder when that will be. It seems like half our army could use a points reduction. Beyond Warriors, CCB, TSK and Chronomancers I don't see much that is truly cost effective
A Doom Scythe fires 3 shots, 2 Sentry Pylons fire 2 shots. The Doom Scythe also has a twin tesla destructor and hasn't gotten any top 4s at a GT yet AFAIK, what makes Sentry Pylons worth it? The only viable artillery unit is Mek Gunz AFAIK, you get 2,5 smasha gun hits for every focussed death ray hit and 15 wounds distributed across 2,5 models instead of 8 on a single model, making the Sentry Pylon an easy kill for an Eradicator Squad.
The gauss exterminator has a role at least and doesn't cost more, while the heat cannon kicks a moderate amount of ass, it is also a lot more expensive relatively.
If you play on a board with a lot of terrain against a mobile enemy you'll be relegated to deep strike, otherwise you won't be able to see anything because of the immobility, while the Doomscythe can look for opportunities to snipe characters that aren't enveloped in dudes.
Comparing 1,4 death ray Pylons to a Doomstalker you don't get an invul, you get fewer wounds, 1 more Toughness, 25-30% less damage on average. I'd say the mobility is similar on the two units and the Doomstalker has the Guardian Construct ability and a twin gauss flayer in addition. All in all I'd say the death ray and heat cannon are terrible, the gauss exterminator is really bad but it has a little bit of play into Aircraft, they all need a 20-30 point reduction before they become competitive.
It won't be too long until I start testing FW, I might totally change my mind. At least the death ray isn't as big a joke as it was last edition.
They can't help you score primary, they can't help with action secondary or board supremacy secondaries. Taking them is essentially locking yourself into taking a kill secondary, and vs many list that's just not an option. (Consider your typical space marine list. If you table them, you get, say 9 for assassinate, 5 for thin the ranks, maybe 1 or 2 for bring it down?)
9th edition's big deal is obscuring terrain. The lists doing well are all highly mobile, so shooters can get around the sides of the terrain and fighters can get up and go through. Immovable arty just doesn't work right for that.
The stats/points balance on them isn't, like, awful, but it's not what it would need to be at to ignore the fact that they don't move. An annihilation barge or one of those praetorian spider walkers is a much better shooting platform.
Are scarabs the solution to the Dark Eldar situation, or at least helpful? I was thinking it help work to essentially cram the mid board with 405 points worth of eternal expansionist scarabs in turn 0. Force the wyches and incubi to hack through them and then fire lots of gauss at whoever’s left alive. What do you reckon?
The DE infantry isn't a big problem for us, Warriors melt them and Flayed Ones trade fairly well, as would Scarabs in certain dynasties. The problem is the transports and I don't think we have a good answer to such a powerful, cheap and numerous unit
Regarding Sentry Pylons maybe they have use in move blocking, the base is quite big? Deep strike down and block off a lane between terrain
Cynista wrote: The DE infantry isn't a big problem for us, Warriors melt them and Flayed Ones trade fairly well, as would Scarabs in certain dynasties. The problem is the transports and I don't think we have a good answer to such a powerful, cheap and numerous unit
Regarding Sentry Pylons maybe they have use in move blocking, the base is quite big? Deep strike down and block off a lane between terrain
What melee units would you rather engage with a Sentry Pylon than a Ghost Ark? Ghost Ark go brrr.
It seems to me that scarabs would do a far better job of move blocking than sentry pylons. I’m not sure what anyone hopes to achieve by deep striking pylons in agains DE. That’s far too late to block anything.
I agree the transports are the problem. Necrons do not have a solution to them. All our big guns are bad and/or static, so will never have LoS.
The point of the scarabs is to force the infantry out of their transports. Cover lots of the board in obsec bodies that are fast and fly, and which the enemy will struggle to shoot dead. Maybe bully the occasional backfield objective unit now and then, or self-destruct at enemy characters. Generally don’t let them play the game they want.
Cynista wrote: The DE infantry isn't a big problem for us, Warriors melt them and Flayed Ones trade fairly well, as would Scarabs in certain dynasties. The problem is the transports and I don't think we have a good answer to such a powerful, cheap and numerous unit
Tesla Destructors eat raiders. When used in combination with our meh dedicated anti-tank options, it does horrible things to Drukari. My last two games I removed 5 raiders and 3 raiders + a ravager respectively in the first turn. Bonus is TDs also do terrible things to Drukari infantry as well.
Cynista wrote: The DE infantry isn't a big problem for us, Warriors melt them and Flayed Ones trade fairly well, as would Scarabs in certain dynasties. The problem is the transports and I don't think we have a good answer to such a powerful, cheap and numerous unit
Tesla Destructors eat raiders. When used in combination with our meh dedicated anti-tank options, it does horrible things to Drukari. My last two games I removed 5 raiders and 3 raiders + a ravager respectively in the first turn. Bonus is TDs also do terrible things to Drukari infantry as well.
Tesla Destructor does an average of just under 3 Wounds to a raider, 4 with Mephrite half range. The Annihilation Barge with Gauss Cannon and Mephrite Half Range is a bit over 5.
It's an useful tool, but you got incredibly lucky.
I'm honestly baffled by the annihilation barge. A load of AP0 D1 shots don't seem to be at all what you want in 9th. I guess they'd be pretty useful against DE infantry, but obviously not against any kind of vehicle.
It looks to me like the best approach is to try and outscore the Primary, forcing the DE out of their paper planes. I don't know if that would work but I do know you can't reliably kill a load of raiders with tesla.
As I said, in conjunction with our other anti tank. So DDAs, Stalkers, Doom Scythes, etc. depending on the build. Firing in the correct order is important as you hit with your large damage dedicated AT guns first to try and get spikes then clean up with a barge, shoot the next one with a dedicated AT, clean up with a barge, rinse and repeat. This also mean deploying well to set up your shots correctly.. Often a Doom Scythe will take one out all on its own. Pop a few of them and you have decent chances of getting an explosion which they are often bunched up because of trying to get behind cover. That adds a few more wounds to the mix. A well timed mephrit strat helps out as well.
Mandragola wrote: I'm honestly baffled by the annihilation barge. A load of AP0 D1 shots don't seem to be at all what you want in 9th. I guess they'd be pretty useful against DE infantry, but obviously not against any kind of vehicle.
It looks to me like the best approach is to try and outscore the Primary, forcing the DE out of their paper planes. I don't know if that would work but I do know you can't reliably kill a load of raiders with tesla.
Tesla bounces off especially against bikers.
DE infantry is vulnerable. But the transports are fast and often only need to survive for one turn to bring their load in close proximity to an appropriate target.
I understand there will be more raiders than doomscythes but that’s got to be our best option yeah? 2 doomscythes each pop a transport with their doom ray and they each shoot a third target with the Tesla, maybe you’ll get 3 transports round one, that should make a difference.
Cauthon wrote: I understand there will be more raiders than doomscythes but that’s got to be our best option yeah? 2 doomscythes each pop a transport with their doom ray and they each shoot a third target with the Tesla, maybe you’ll get 3 transports round one, that should make a difference.
That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works.
You have to determine points efficiency and compare with alternative units and not just say "ah yeah that'll kill a unit" just because it fires 3 BIG DAMAGE shots.
A doomray does 5,56 damage to a Raider, a twin tesla destructor does 3,33 (4,44 if Mephrit is taking effect).
2 Doomscythes are unlikely to kill more than 1, let alone 3.
Maelstrom808 wrote: While I agree that firing the Teslas off at another target is a mistake, by your own math, a Mephrit Doom Scythe kills exactly one raider on average.
Still unlikely to kill 2 (probably 30% chance) and 3 is never happening. Getting 2 Raiders low enough your ABs can pick them off? Super likely. I'm just trying to be realistic, I still haven't used a flyer in 9th.
Maelstrom808 wrote: While I agree that firing the Teslas off at another target is a mistake, by your own math, a Mephrit Doom Scythe kills exactly one raider on average.
Still unlikely to kill 2 (probably 30% chance) and 3 is never happening. Getting 2 Raiders low enough your ABs can pick them off? Super likely. I'm just trying to be realistic, I still haven't used a flyer in 9th.
What else are you going to use that can do it better?
Maelstrom808 wrote: While I agree that firing the Teslas off at another target is a mistake, by your own math, a Mephrit Doom Scythe kills exactly one raider on average.
Still unlikely to kill 2 (probably 30% chance) and 3 is never happening. Getting 2 Raiders low enough your ABs can pick them off? Super likely. I'm just trying to be realistic, I still haven't used a flyer in 9th.
What else are you going to use that can do it better?
Heavy Lokhust Destroyers, they'll kill one each in shooting and another one in melee. /s
You'll have to wait a month if you want me to math it out.
3 heavy destroyers put out 3 strength 10 shots for 6 damage.
1 doom scythe puts out 3 shots at strength 12 for 5 damage.
Doom scythe also has the Tesla.
Doom scythe is cheaper.
I don’t think your math is going to favor the heavy destroyers squads but I’ve been wrong before.
I’ll take the wounding on 2’s vs t6 and the mobility. Heavy destroyers degrade worse than doomscythes when you take into account the stellar alignment strat.
The heavy destroyers will also have a harder time having los. At -1 to be shot at and +1 toughness the doomscythe is at least as survivable as heavy destroyers. The heavy destroyers can hide but then how much work are they getting done?
How come I cant say doomscythes can kill raiders but you get to claim heavy destroyers can do it better? Where’s your points efficiency comparison?
I wasn’t expecting to kill three a turn, was a maybe, best case scenario, pie in the sky. If your doom ray comes up short then put the Tesla into that raider as well, obviously.
Otherwise raiders make almost as good a target for Tesla as anything, especially considering we don’t have many options to take them out and it needs to happen at long range to be worthwhile.
One doomscythe and a unit of heavy destroyers would probably be better than two of either but I’m personally not investing in heavy destroyers.
How about having throwaway scarab swarms on objectives. If he puts transports on the mid objectives, the scarabs will win over the transports in numbers plus we can make our scarabs obsec if we wish to.
So, he is then forced to charge his infantry into our scarabs. Then on our turn, we kill their infantry with our infantry shooting. Just make sure bring royal wardens and veil of darkness so that he cannot do cheap stuff like charge an empty transport into our warrior blob to stop its shooting.
I feel that our heavy weapons are our weak point. We over pay for them and our platforms for heavy weapons are simply not that great. (doom scythes and such). They are too easily killed by other equivalent anti tank. Each raider can pack a dark lance. With just one or two ravagers plus a few transports, the Drukhari player can pack more dark lances than we can have in equivalent heavy weapons and the raiders double up as transports too. In short, we cannot beat the Drukhari in a heavy weapons arms race. They can easily pack 8 to 10 dark lances without breaking a sweat.
I am more in favour of giving them zero good targets for their dark lances. So, run only characters, C'tan. infantry and swarms and one unit of wraiths. And rely on shooting their infantry only after they have disembarked. Our front line will be scarab swarms. Keep our infantry well back until their infantry is committed. We have veil of darkness anyway, and once their infantry starts to advance and charge on turn 2, we will have lots of targets no matter where our infantry are.
Well, against Drukhari, the enemy will most likely have several Venoms and Raiders, eventually supported by Ravagers and flyers - at least, this is how my army has looked like in the 8th ed.
Raiders are the biggest threat these days when loaded with passengers. For Necrons, it seems not be possible to take down all Raiders at first sight. Taking down two or three Raiders seems possible. Then you have to deal with DE infantry at midfield or in your face. Here Necrons are more durable and have much better shooting. Necrons should be able to win a protracted fight vs. DE. The longer the fight takes, the better for the Necrons. So no need to despair at this point.
/s idicates the end of a sarcastic sentence. Heavy Lokhusts are bad IMO. Try mathing particle and tesla TBs, Doomstalker, DDA and Lokhust Destroyers.
Tournament stats say 30% WR vs DE, your build should be prepared if you want to win an event with 4+ rounds. Siegler put up a fight aginst Nanavati's DE with Warrior spam and a couple of ABs.
Eldenfirefly wrote: How about having throwaway scarab swarms on objectives. If he puts transports on the mid objectives, the scarabs will win over the transports in numbers plus we can make our scarabs obsec if we wish to.
So, he is then forced to charge his infantry into our scarabs. Then on our turn, we kill their infantry with our infantry shooting. Just make sure bring royal wardens and veil of darkness so that he cannot do cheap stuff like charge an empty transport into our warrior blob to stop its shooting.
I feel that our heavy weapons are our weak point. We over pay for them and our platforms for heavy weapons are simply not that great. (doom scythes and such). They are too easily killed by other equivalent anti tank. Each raider can pack a dark lance. With just one or two ravagers plus a few transports, the Drukhari player can pack more dark lances than we can have in equivalent heavy weapons and the raiders double up as transports too. In short, we cannot beat the Drukhari in a heavy weapons arms race. They can easily pack 8 to 10 dark lances without breaking a sweat.
I am more in favour of giving them zero good targets for their dark lances. So, run only characters, C'tan. infantry and swarms and one unit of wraiths. And rely on shooting their infantry only after they have disembarked. Our front line will be scarab swarms. Keep our infantry well back until their infantry is committed. We have veil of darkness anyway, and once their infantry starts to advance and charge on turn 2, we will have lots of targets no matter where our infantry are.
This is basically my plan. 18 bases of Eternal Expansionist scarabs all over the middle of the board. 270 points. The DE will have to get rid of them if they want the objectives and then I'll be able to hit them back... in theory at least.
I quite like the Scarab approach in theory. Clogging up the middle with 40mm bases that their Dark Lances are bad against so the infantry must deal with them, have Warriors hang back and shoot the next turn
Cynista wrote: I quite like the Scarab approach in theory. Clogging up the middle with 40mm bases that their Dark Lances are bad against so the infantry must deal with them, have Warriors hang back and shoot the next turn
Sounds like a tactics, but plans often fail with the first enemy contact.
It may also work against other armies, even Marines.
Using rad-wreathed, the enemy will have a hard time in melee against Scarabs.
Cynista wrote: I quite like the Scarab approach in theory. Clogging up the middle with 40mm bases that their Dark Lances are bad against so the infantry must deal with them, have Warriors hang back and shoot the next turn
Sounds like a tactics, but plans often fail with the first enemy contact.
It may also work against other armies, even Marines.
Using rad-wreathed, the enemy will have a hard time in melee against Scarabs.
Rad-wreathed is kind of iffy on Scarabs unless you get a canoptek control node near them because of the auto-wound on hits of 6 and 4+ WS. 1,33 hits per base benefit, 2 if you have a control node.
Without the node you are getting 0,22 extra wounds per base against T3, T4 and T6, taking you from 1,33 wounds to 1,55 wounds per base against T3, 1,11 to 1,33 vs T4, 0,88 to 1,11 vs T6.
Art of war had a Necron vs Drukhari battle report recently. Richard Siglar took a list that had just mostly necron warriors, scarabs and Anni barges against Nick's Drukhari. It was a very close game where he lost by less than 5 points. One or two moves or dice rolls during the game probably cost him the game.
Shows that this method can work against a Drukhari list.
It’s not specifically tailored for them, it’ll only be my second game with current Necrons and first time seeing new Drukhari, but this is the list I’m looking at taking vs a friend’s force this weekend.
Necrons Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment ( 6CP - 380PT )
SUB-FACTION: Nephrekh
LORD OF WAR Monolith (380) 4 X Death ray
STRATAGEMS
Dynastic Heirlooms (1CP)
Total Command Points: 7/15
Reinforcement Points: 1
Total Points: 1999/2000
Likely make the Overlord a Phaeron, but the app doesn’t recognize the CCB as a valid target for that Strat. Monolith and Warscythes will be deep striking, with the Warscythes using Prismatic. If I have time to build it I may replace the Warden with another Technomancer.
Interesting. A monolith. Let us know how it goes. I am always keen to know about people trying out units like the Monolith which many Necron players have written off as uncompetitive.
I don't think Nephrekh is particularly strong in general, but 60 Warriors get a lot of mileage out of the 6++. It saves having to have chronomancers. You could probably do with some cheap units for screening, objectives, and actions, like Scarabs and Cryptothralls. Scarabs do very well out of Nephrekh as they like having a 6++, and the extra advance helps them grab objectives better.
I've played several games against the new Dark Eldar. I don't think Necrons do too badly against them compared to most. They struggle to clear a whole Warrior brick in one go, so if you can resurrect, then fall back and shoot, they fail to trade the way they want to. Small Scarab units are also difficult for them to trade against, 5 feels like a good size. Cheap, fast, ObSec units like 3 x Particle Tomb Blades, 3x Wraith and Scarabs do well, as long as you can hide from the Liquifiers a bit. I tried Annihilation barges and they were ok, I'm not sold.
Recently awakened Overlord here! I just picked up 3 Indomitus halves (a killer deal too!) and a box of Lychguard/Praetorians and Im really excited to start purging the galaxy of all these parasites.
What would you suggest to be a good start from here?
I have noticed that Command Barges and triarch stalkers seem very popular. Also Im keen on Mephrit rules so far as I am thinking of doing 40 Reapers and 20 flayers with my warrior blobs since the reapers seem to be good all rounders for my objective holders.
Is Warriors +warden+ Skorpect + Scarabs = Profit a good baseline?
AduroT wrote: It’s not specifically tailored for them, it’ll only be my second game with current Necrons and first time seeing new Drukhari, but this is the list I’m looking at taking vs a friend’s force this weekend.
Necrons Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment ( 6CP - 380PT )
SUB-FACTION: Nephrekh
LORD OF WAR Monolith (380) 4 X Death ray
STRATAGEMS
Dynastic Heirlooms (1CP)
Total Command Points: 7/15
Reinforcement Points: 1
Total Points: 1999/2000
Likely make the Overlord a Phaeron, but the app doesn’t recognize the CCB as a valid target for that Strat. Monolith and Warscythes will be deep striking, with the Warscythes using Prismatic. If I have time to build it I may replace the Warden with another Technomancer.
The CCB doesn't have the 'Overlord' keyword, so I assume it's not actually a valid target for the "Hand of the Phaeron" stratagem. The Overlord entry does have the keyword, so it seems intentional. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though.
AduroT wrote: It’s not specifically tailored for them, it’ll only be my second game with current Necrons and first time seeing new Drukhari, but this is the list I’m looking at taking vs a friend’s force this weekend.
Necrons Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment ( 6CP - 380PT )
SUB-FACTION: Nephrekh
LORD OF WAR Monolith (380) 4 X Death ray
STRATAGEMS
Dynastic Heirlooms (1CP)
Total Command Points: 7/15
Reinforcement Points: 1
Total Points: 1999/2000
Likely make the Overlord a Phaeron, but the app doesn’t recognize the CCB as a valid target for that Strat. Monolith and Warscythes will be deep striking, with the Warscythes using Prismatic. If I have time to build it I may replace the Warden with another Technomancer.
The CCB doesn't have the 'Overlord' keyword, so I assume it's not actually a valid target for the "Hand of the Phaeron" stratagem. The Overlord entry does have the keyword, so it seems intentional. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though.
Command Barge does have the Overlord keyword, or at least does in the app.
AduroT wrote: It’s not specifically tailored for them, it’ll only be my second game with current Necrons and first time seeing new Drukhari, but this is the list I’m looking at taking vs a friend’s force this weekend.
Necrons Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment ( 6CP - 380PT )
SUB-FACTION: Nephrekh
LORD OF WAR Monolith (380) 4 X Death ray
STRATAGEMS
Dynastic Heirlooms (1CP)
Total Command Points: 7/15
Reinforcement Points: 1
Total Points: 1999/2000
Likely make the Overlord a Phaeron, but the app doesn’t recognize the CCB as a valid target for that Strat. Monolith and Warscythes will be deep striking, with the Warscythes using Prismatic. If I have time to build it I may replace the Warden with another Technomancer.
The CCB doesn't have the 'Overlord' keyword, so I assume it's not actually a valid target for the "Hand of the Phaeron" stratagem. The Overlord entry does have the keyword, so it seems intentional. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though.
Command Barge does have the Overlord keyword, or at least does in the app.
My mistake! I looked right past it in the list, you're definitely right that it has the keyword so Phaeron to your heart's content
Since you have a large number of Lychguard, it could be to your benefit to take a Psychomancer to benefit them while in cc. Could be a useful way to remove ObSec while also providing an easier time cleaning up via morale. Just a thought.
Psychomancers are available again in the UK. I've got one and it's a properly weird model, with probably more bits than any other "infantry" model I've built. I suppose they do combo quite nicely with Lychguard, which don't need the help of a Chronomancer. Stick Eternal expansionist Lychguard on an objective and make whatever enemy turns up not obsec. Good times.
AduroT wrote: What are the thoughts on Royal Warden vs second Technomancer?
As you have a lot of non-Novokh Warriors, you need ways to fall back and still shoot. Dark Eldar in particular can shut down all those warrior blobs trivially by charging them with Raiders. Even without a Royal Warden you have the Veil of Darkness, Dimensional Corrider strategem, and Protocol of the Conquering Tyrant, so you might be able to get away with it, but I think you will be glad to have him.
I found a Hexmark and Psychomancer without too much difficulty by just going to the various 3rd party websites to see who had stock. Sadly I have not managed to get the Psychomancer to do anything useful when I've used it.
Counter-temporal nanomines are there to halt a unit that I am planning to shoot but not kill with 18" RF Warriors, then I'll be within 16", unless the target has a large amount of Movement a charge will be impossible.
generalchaos34 wrote: Recently awakened Overlord here! I just picked up 3 Indomitus halves (a killer deal too!) and a box of Lychguard/Praetorians and Im really excited to start purging the galaxy of all these parasites.
What would you suggest to be a good start from here?
I have noticed that Command Barges and triarch stalkers seem very popular. Also Im keen on Mephrit rules so far as I am thinking of doing 40 Reapers and 20 flayers with my warrior blobs since the reapers seem to be good all rounders for my objective holders.
Is Warriors +warden+ Skorpect + Scarabs = Profit a good baseline?
See if you can't get Command Barges second hand, they used to hand them out like candy.
Something i recently discovered. The 6" pre turn move from relentless expansionists doesnt affect DDAs and doomstalker, because they dont move in their movement phase. You can use this to hide them, or pop them out from cover, and still use the high power profile.
Counter-temporal nanomines are there to halt a unit that I am planning to shoot but not kill with 18" RF Warriors, then I'll be within 16", unless the target has a large amount of Movement a charge will be impossible.
generalchaos34 wrote: Recently awakened Overlord here! I just picked up 3 Indomitus halves (a killer deal too!) and a box of Lychguard/Praetorians and Im really excited to start purging the galaxy of all these parasites.
What would you suggest to be a good start from here?
I have noticed that Command Barges and triarch stalkers seem very popular. Also Im keen on Mephrit rules so far as I am thinking of doing 40 Reapers and 20 flayers with my warrior blobs since the reapers seem to be good all rounders for my objective holders.
Is Warriors +warden+ Skorpect + Scarabs = Profit a good baseline?
See if you can't get Command Barges second hand, they used to hand them out like candy.
Thanks! I'll assume these are solid because of mobility and close combat hijinks?
Counter-temporal nanomines are there to halt a unit that I am planning to shoot but not kill with 18" RF Warriors, then I'll be within 16", unless the target has a large amount of Movement a charge will be impossible.
I like this list. You've got a lot of firepower there and it should be reasonably accurate, at least if you need to kill one particular target. A technomancer with a controller thingy would of course be useful but as Sautekh you can sort of manage without, and you get to spread your doomstalkers out as a bonus.
A slightly weird thing with Sautekh is that they really buff ghost arks, thanks to the 18" rapid fire, but those kind of want reaper warriors inside and they don't benefit much at all. So I guess one ghost ark makes sense.
I wonder if overall you'd be better off just taking DDAs instead of Doomstalkers and using them as good all-rounders, with 20 rapid fire shots at 18" as well as a good hammer shot for big stuff. Unlike the Doomstalkers, DDAs are good against hordes.
I've been looking at a very different list myself. It features almost no firepower butr it's a lot meaner up close. It plans to aggressively take control of the midboard with fast, tough, obsec models. I threw a lot of stuff in here and it pleasingly came to exactly 2k:
Spoiler:
Eternal Expansionist Battalion
Catacomb Command Barge
Gauss Cannon
Res orb
Enduring Will
Voltaic Staff
Chronomancer
Veil of Darkness
2 Cryptothralls
5 Immortals (Gauss)
20 Warriors (Reapers)
20 Warriors (Reapers)
10 Lychguard
C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer
5 Wraiths
9 Scarab Swarms
9 Scarab Swarms
One thing I quite like about this list is that almost everyone can do the Ancient Machineries action. I think I'd take that secondary in any mission that had three midboard objectives, unless the enemy looked like they were going to zerg at me themselves.
p5freak wrote: Something i recently discovered. The 6" pre turn move from relentless expansionists doesnt affect DDAs and doomstalker, because they dont move in their movement phase. You can use this to hide them, or pop them out from cover, and still use the high power profile.
Yep. I've tinkered with Eternal Expansionist/Pitiless Hunters custom dynasty will also let them get that pre game 6 inch move, and then sit in midfield rapid firing out to 24" hopefully all game.
p5freak wrote: Something i recently discovered. The 6" pre turn move from relentless expansionists doesnt affect DDAs and doomstalker, because they dont move in their movement phase. You can use this to hide them, or pop them out from cover, and still use the high power profile.
Yep. I've tinkered with Eternal Expansionist/Pitiless Hunters custom dynasty will also let them get that pre game 6 inch move, and then sit in midfield rapid firing out to 24" hopefully all game.
Unfortunately Pitiless Hunters only benefits infantry.
So utter crushing by the Dark Eldar. He went first, and his initial Dark Lance barrage from the five Raiders only killed one Lychguard and one Warrior who the Technomancers promptly brought back. Veiled Warriors on mine wiped out five mans of Mandrakes and Wracks on his back line while rest of my shooting two thirds killed one Raider. Turn two is all went to poop. While his nine iirc Liquifiers only managed to drop five Lychguard thanks to incredible save rolls, a unit of Hellions wiped the whole twenty Warrior veiling unit in one go, denying their resurrections. I was being cute and going for the 5+ overwatch protocol, but DE have a Strat that denies overwatch, so I was just getting +1 to hit in melee. Really should have stuck with my initial thought of the fallback and shoot one. Overall I was holding up better in melee than I expected other than that one glaring exception, and just misplayed a couple things, but that is to be expected given it’s my second Necron game vs my first Drukhari opponent.
I was going with Linebreaker and Teleport Homers, so getting into and holding onto his backside was a main goal. That unit falling apart so spectacularly made that plan fail utterly. The dice on it just made it so much worse too. He had fourteen guys in melee. Rolled the first five, killed like ~five Warriors. Rolled the second five, killed another ~four. Feeling pretty good at this point. He rolled the last four, spiked it Hard, wiped the remaining ~eleven Warriors. Just built my hope up to crush it entirely, and losing out on that much reanimation potential is the worst feeling.
I quite like pitiless hunters for immortals. A few squads of those guys in the back field could be pretty effective and relatively difficult to get rid of.
On the whole though I don’t think it’s worth taking across an army as a whole. Not enough stuff benefits and it’s not as big an upgrade as obsec, especially in 9th. You really want to be moving and claiming objectives, not sitting back still.
You could possibly do this if taking a soup list. You can certainly argue that command protocols don’t do that much. That’s especially true if you were going for two C’tan, since they don’t get protocols anyway.
If you had two patrols you could have one eternal expansionist set with a couple of reaper warriors squads and a CCB, then a second with a couple of squads of pitiless hunter immortals and maybe Anrakyr as the hq, since he’d buff everyone in both detachments.
I’ve got a slightly different idea, which is to make the second detachment be Sautekh and have Imotekh lead it. The plan is to lean heavily into mortal wounds and bring 20 warriors that could rapid fire at 18”.
As I am now building up my army I was wondering if DE release or any others have changed the analysis on Lychguard v Praetorians as a good second hard-hitting flexible unit next to Skorpekhs and which weapon option if Lychguard.
teamtigerstripe wrote: As I am now building up my army I was wondering if DE release or any others have changed the analysis on Lychguard v Praetorians as a good second hard-hitting flexible unit next to Skorpekhs and which weapon option if Lychguard.
It looks like people mostly favour Lychguard and pretty much always give them shields. The fact they come with a 2+/4++ on a relatively cheap model makes them pretty good at sticking around to control the midfield, though it does arguably make them more of an anvil unit than what you’re describing. They’ll make a reassuringly messy wreck of not 1w infantry they hit though, with good strength and ap on many attacks. They’re a very buff-able unit too, being core, but can manage ok unbuffed if needed.
Praetorians are kind of cool but I struggle to figure out what to do with them. Big units look pretty vulnerable and not all that fantastic as a hammer squad. Small ones might work ok to go off and bully objective-holders and stuff, but they’re not all that great at getting there. You can’t use a chronomancer to give them an invulnerable save as they’re not <Dynasty>, though Orikan can.
I’m not really sure if there’s a role for Lychguard with scythes. They seem a bit too fragile and not really hard hitting enough to me. I think units like wraiths and skorpekhs do a slightly better job of the same thing. There’s a case for having them come out of a night scythe with the strat, but I’m not sure that’s really all that great, given the cost you pay.
AduroT wrote: I do sythes out of Prismatic for the 6” charge. 9” Veil charge is much riskier.
Charge of 9'' I usually fail to do so.
So for me its not a worthwhile tactics.
One reason for me to go without Lychguard. Too slow and too unreliable.
I've always used Wraiths in the 6th and 7th ed and they never have let me down.
I think I’d probably still want sword and board Lychguard, even coming out of the prismatic strat. Essentially I think the vast increase in durability is worth the loss in damage output. Now that the shield gives a 2+ armour save as well as the 4++ the unit is substantially more resilient against small arms and melee.
If anything, scythe Lychguard are a bit happier if they can be buffed by a chronomancer. Part of the downside of the strat is that the unit appears too late in the turn to be buffed, leaving them very vulnerable to retaliation. I like how sword and board Lychguard don’t really need those buffs.
Another factor is that you might not want to be locked into using the strat. There’ll be games where it’s amazing but others where the more important thing is to dominate the mid board early on, so you want your guys on the table. If you take a unit with shields then they can do either job.
Taking shield guys obviously sacrifices a lot of alpha damage output. But which is better - a unit that does a ton of damage and then dies, or one that sticks around much longer, while actually doing pretty serious amounts of damage. Personally I want the durable unit in 9e, where the important thing is to live through your opponent’s turn to score objectives and complete actions. And anyway a unit with 30 S6 ap-3 attacks is hardly harmless.
Mandragola wrote: I think I’d probably still want sword and board Lychguard, even coming out of the prismatic strat. Essentially I think the vast increase in durability is worth the loss in damage output. Now that the shield gives a 2+ armour save as well as the 4++ the unit is substantially more resilient against small arms and melee.
If anything, scythe Lychguard are a bit happier if they can be buffed by a chronomancer. Part of the downside of the strat is that the unit appears too late in the turn to be buffed, leaving them very vulnerable to retaliation. I like how sword and board Lychguard don’t really need those buffs.
Another factor is that you might not want to be locked into using the strat. There’ll be games where it’s amazing but others where the more important thing is to dominate the mid board early on, so you want your guys on the table. If you take a unit with shields then they can do either job.
Taking shield guys obviously sacrifices a lot of alpha damage output. But which is better - a unit that does a ton of damage and then dies, or one that sticks around much longer, while actually doing pretty serious amounts of damage. Personally I want the durable unit in 9e, where the important thing is to live through your opponent’s turn to score objectives and complete actions. And anyway a unit with 30 S6 ap-3 attacks is hardly harmless.
Not sure if you really need sword and board Lychguard.
One issue is delivery and getting the charge.
In opposition to Skorpekh and Wraiths they are too slow.
I'll leave them home for other viable options.
Shieldguard don't need to be fast. Turn one, 5"+Advance. If that doesn't get you on an objective, Turn two, 5"+Charge onto the objective. Then the shieldguard's job is to say "ok, now get me off of it, I dare you."
I started playing crons again after skipping them completely in 8E. I'm looking at the Dynastic Advisers ability for crypteks. I think it means if I have a battalion with 2 lords I can have 2 crypteks as well even though that exceeds the number of hq slots in the detachment. Am I misreading that?
necron99 wrote: I started playing crons again after skipping them completely in 8E. I'm looking at the Dynastic Advisers ability for crypteks. I think it means if I have a battalion with 2 lords I can have 2 crypteks as well even though that exceeds the number of hq slots in the detachment. Am I misreading that?
Yes, but you cannot have a Cryptek and 3 Lords or 2 Lords, Orikan and a Cryptek.
necron99 wrote: I started playing crons again after skipping them completely in 8E. I'm looking at the Dynastic Advisers ability for crypteks. I think it means if I have a battalion with 2 lords I can have 2 crypteks as well even though that exceeds the number of hq slots in the detachment. Am I misreading that?
Yes, but you cannot have a Cryptek and 3 Lords or 2 Lords, Orikan and a Cryptek.
Can I have 2 lords and 2 crypteks? I built a battalion in battlescribe and it's saying I have too many hq's :(
Detachment has Noble? Yes
Detachment has one Cryptek? Yes
Get free Cryptek slot for non-unique Cryptek.
In battlescribe it would go in the bit above HQs to avoid it yelling at you for too many hqs. If thats a battalion then yeah you can have 2 lords and 2 crypteks since its normally 3 HQs and the cryptek taking 1 slot allows a free slot for another cryptek.
Not sure if you really need sword and board Lychguard.
One issue is delivery and getting the charge.
In opposition to Skorpekh and Wraiths they are too slow.
I'll leave them home for other viable options.
Footslogging melee units no longer need a delivery system in 9th ed. They don't need to move more than 12" all game to play their part. Not that being faster isn't useful, it's just not essential like in previous editions where you needed to be able to cross the table and charge a gunline in two turns.
Yeah if they need to move more than 12-16" at most either you deployed them way too far back or your opponent is not even trying to take the midfield objectives.
Lychguard with shields either charge something moving up the board, or park it on objectives and say "Hit me, i dare you" with their 2+/4++ in cover in some cases making it even harder and RP backup. They simply dont go down easily and will either keep holding that objective, blender whatever was there, or soak a considerable amount of firepower to get removed.
The amount of times my opponent just gave up trying to kill them is amusing, especially with a technomancer floating around.
Yeah I’m not too worried about their speed, especially since they’ll be eternal expansionists. They’ll get to where they need to be.
They have some non-obvious benefits too. Nowadays they’re an unusually powerful model to be on a 32mm base. They’ll also continue to protect characters for longer, thanks to being a 10-bot unit instead of 5 or 6 skorpekhs or wraiths.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah I’m not too worried about their speed, especially since they’ll be eternal expansionists. They’ll get to where they need to be.
They have some non-obvious benefits too. Nowadays they’re an unusually powerful model to be on a 32mm base. They’ll also continue to protect characters for longer, thanks to being a 10-bot unit instead of 5 or 6 skorpekhs or wraiths.
But they have just two wounds each.
There are weapons out there with two damage like heavy bolters and so can eliminate single models in one volley.
Nah not auto take, just a really good unit worth considering in any list, and if you buy the kit they are the best thing to build with it (for now). They also fit well into both of the most common Necron lists; Eternal Expansionists and Novokh Warriors.
Speaking of which, I decided to try abandoning Command Protocols and combine both of these approaches into the same list:
Thanks to being Dynastic Agents, Anrakyr and Szeras can buff units from both detachments. They support the core of Novokh Warriors and ObSec Lychguard that hold a couple of primary objectives and score WWSWF. The Obsec Scarabs and Tomb Blades jump onto enemy primary objectives to prevent them scoring in their command phase, whilst also being good for Engage or Domination. The Cryptothralls Deploy Scramblers/Raise Banners/Engage.
I had a game against Space Wolves that went fairly to plan. We both scored well on secondaries, but I was able to prevent him scoring the primary by sacrificing a couple of 75pt Obsec units a turn. Having to clear those units out also prevented my opponent from focusing enough attention on my big blobs. Szeras was able to tidy up any chip damage that did go through, and got a bit lucky putting +1 T onto both Warrior blobs (Lychguard got BSlol). I think Anraky is worth it for the +1 A aura, but the only time it came up this game was when a Warrior Blob charged a Dreadnought and I gave them 60 attacks just to make sure.
Lych are good. Mainly because they are durable. I prefer spiders for a slow melee unit as they have good shooting to boot and can kill vehicles too. Plus the cool abilities like phylactery hive - repairing themselves - and reanimating scarabs...Love them.
It is hard for lych to have a bad game though. Send them at an objective - they are gonna get stuck into melee for many turns.
And yes, theres 2d guns out there. Vast majority of them are not going to want to fire at lychguard since they only got 1ap, or have way more AP so the invul kicks in and blocks half of it. Generally such guns are going after my tombblades, destroyers, or vehicles/canopteks i got in the list. They do die. The thing is they have RP backing them up if they do, as i have never, ever lost more than 5 in a single volley and that was a mega expensive unit that shot them (more than they cost in the first place). Which case 2 just stood right back up. Themore that die w/o wiping the unit the more stand back up and make it less impactful of a shot.
That 4++ prevents any real hard counter to T5 2W models from completely removing them long enough for RP to kick in. Barring some really gak luck on your end of course. i'd say theyre a contender for the most durable unit in the game that isnt a character.
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: There is an image floating around of alleged CA21. As I am unsure of the legality of uploading it, you will have to trust my word.
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: There is an image floating around of alleged CA21. As I am unsure of the legality of uploading it, you will have to trust my word.
Inmortals to 16-17 (gauss-tesla)
Warriors 14.
That all that changed?
Pic is only focused on those vales. No idea about what will happen
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: There is an image floating around of alleged CA21. As I am unsure of the legality of uploading it, you will have to trust my word.
Inmortals to 16-17 (gauss-tesla)
Warriors 14.
That all that changed?
Pic is only focused on those vales. No idea about what will happen
Eventually point adaption - but this is nothing new.
I built my first list utilizing the silent king yesterday which makes this the first list I built on Battle Scribe using a supreme command detachment. My understanding was that the supreme command detachment was 0CP initially but would become +theOtherDetachmentsCost to effectively make it 0. Am I misunderstanding that? The reason I ask is because the silent king ability should give me 3 CP but I don't see it being reflected in Battle Scribe.
so this is kinda funny and throws that "leaked points change" for a whack.
The last article claims that "Immortals were outshined by their more numerous cousins the warriors.Now they only cost a measily 4pts more!"
....cough... warriors are 13ppm immortals are 17ppm right now, thats 4ppm difference already. Before any points changes. They didnt say what the new points was for them, just that they cost 4pts more.
edit: apparently, according to the FB post, its referring to Tesla no longer costing extra. Rather stupid way to point that out if thats the truth.
necron99 wrote: I built my first list utilizing the silent king yesterday which makes this the first list I built on Battle Scribe using a supreme command detachment. My understanding was that the supreme command detachment was 0CP initially but would become +theOtherDetachmentsCost to effectively make it 0. Am I misunderstanding that? The reason I ask is because the silent king ability should give me 3 CP but I don't see it being reflected in Battle Scribe.
When you take the Supreme command Detachment it costs 0. With the pt cost value in there and your warlord being the silent king this should change to +3 which negates the -3 from the batallion cost starting you with 12cp. I just checked and it's working on my battlescribe that way.
As for the pt cost changes, I would take all leaks with a ton of salt at this point if not from gw. The de raider one has already been proved a fake, it came from 4chan to troll people because that's what 4chan does. The official leaks gw just put out I am ok with, 17 for an immortal with tesla? Yeah baby. Lol.
Thats not how that works. Supreme Command refunds one batallion or patrol or brigade if your warlord is in it (in the Supreme that is)
You have to set a Detachment Command Cost for the detachments if its not there, including the Supreme Command one. Once you set the Silent King as your Warlord (which is automatic since he HAS to be), the Detachment Command Cost goes to 3 (as in, positive) and Silent King himself also says 3CP, so that detachment has a +6CP. The battalion still shows a -3CP cost because thats just how they chose to deal with the refunding mechanic.
Silent King and 1 detachment is 15CP to start with. Mine shows this just fine.
Vineheart01 wrote: ...apparently, according to the FB post, its referring to Tesla no longer costing extra. Rather stupid way to point that out if thats the truth.
Especially when said article claims it is highlighting the "Five Biggest Points Changes..." :-p
I mean... maybe Warriors are now 1ppm and Immortals are 5ppm???
Based on the "leaks" from today, I'd say these are unlikely since they seem to think immortals being the same points as before is a big change if they make tesla free...Somehow I think they missed their own goals with points changes.
Based on the "leaks" from today, I'd say these are unlikely since they seem to think immortals being the same points as before is a big change if they make tesla free...Somehow I think they missed their own goals with points changes.
Don't even know what to think after reading those leaks...
I could get behind flayer warriors costing 12ppm and reaper warriors costing 13ppm. However if the leaked image is correct and Warriors are 14ppm that is really, really stupid and would negate other point drops
iGuy91 wrote: Based on warhammer community article, they said that:
Tesla is going to cost the same as gauss for immortals.
Immortals are going to 16
Immortals are only 4 points more than warriors.
So the leak image was wrong about warriors going up, but was right about immortals going down.
I don't think anything in there actually said immortals will be 16 points. Currently they're 17, warriors are 13, so already 4points more per model (what they stated). The only stated change is that tesla is 0 points now instead of 2.
iGuy91 wrote: Based on warhammer community article, they said that:
Tesla is going to cost the same as gauss for immortals.
Immortals are going to 16
Immortals are only 4 points more than warriors.
So the leak image was wrong about warriors going up, but was right about immortals going down.
I don't think anything in there actually said immortals will be 16 points. Currently they're 17, warriors are 13, so already 4points more per model (what they stated). The only stated change is that tesla is 0 points now instead of 2.
Tesla change makes sense and makes Immortals even more attractive.
I have 20 Immortals w/ tesla and they were always an asset in my former lists.
LD and LHD were the top thing I felt needed to be lower so yay? Certainly a lot more could have been tweaked downward but since this was printed months and months ago, not at all shocked. I guess maybe Christmas time we may finally be more compelled to use the crescent shaped stuff again.
The nerfs? They weren't needed but they aren't surprising. CBB and Lance are comparably better, by the amounts they were raised arguably...just would have been better if adjustments down of comparable things were done rather than nerfs.
yeah gotta love it when they nerf the better of 2 options instead of buff the weaker.
Overlords arent anything ridiculous. Not even close. CCB made him actually do something for ~50% more points so it was way worth it if you didnt need the infantry keyword on the overlord somewhere.
Nope, nerf CCB. Not even an outshining unit, just better of 2 options.
Least 10pts isnt that big a deal.
Lance point cost increase was totally merited. (Your character can either have a 1 damage gun or a dark lance, same cost!)
CCB feels a bit mean spirited. That thing's already struggling to be worth it at the existing cost, now it's up 10? Time to switch to Overlord, I think.
About the supposed immortal points cost change. I think it bears looking into. I still think Necron warriors should be an important feature in a Necron list. But with the points drop in immortals. I would definitely have two squads of those in my backfield. They are cheaper to guard home objectives compared to a squad of warriors. And model for model, they shoot better than Necron warriors too.
Given the two most powerful codexes released till date so far look like its going to be Admech and Drukhari, Both of which can do enormous amounts of damage, we need so called "layers of defense"
The firepower output of these two codexes is such that if we give them juicy targets to focus on, they will very likely blow them off the field. I need to do the math on rangers firing on necron warrior blobs. But for a squad of 20 rangers to be ble to fire 80 shots sounds extremely scary and it gives them a very good chance (I haven't done the math) of wiping an entire squad of 20 necron warriors off the board not giving them any chance to reanimate at all.
I still think Necron warrior blobs are really strong in their own right. But I think cheaper costed immortals in our backfield will only add to our firepower and increase the firing headaches for our opponents.
So, do you target the big blob of 20 warriors, fail to kill it, and have half coming back? Or you go for the immortals at the backlines which are steadily doing damage every turn if you ignore them.
Oh yeah i agree the lance going up is totally expected. That gun was shockingly effective.
Feel they should have made him cheaper to make the other variant even better. Even at +10pts, i'll never use it over the lance lol
Cynista wrote: Reasonable? We needed points reductions across the board and instead my list is getting 20 points more expensive. Awesome. GW are on drugs.
Catacomb Command Barge [9 PL, 145pts]
Selections: Relic: Veil of Darkness, Staff of Light, Tesla Cannon, Warlord, Warlord Trait (Codex 4): Thrall of the Silent King
Technomancer [4 PL, 80pts]
Selections: Canoptek Cloak, Staff of Light
Technomancer [4 PL, 80pts]
Selections: Canoptek Cloak, Staff of Light
So, like, remember that the most common result of a good balancing change is your list getting more expensive.
The stuff we are playing is the best stuff in the dex (that's why we are playing it), so if anything is getting a points bump, it will be that. The stuff we didn't take is getting a decrease, because it isn't even worth taking.
That said, I think the biggest change to the Necron codex wasn't in our points, it was in those secondaries. The new version of 'thin their ranks' counts wounds on stuff that isn't a monster or a vehicle. Everyone with 3 scarab units gonna be giving up the 15 on that strat, every game.
Silver Tide style lists (or whatever we are calling the 3 max scarabs, 2 max warriors, 2 c'tan, 3 plasmancers, etc) style lists may have been pushed off the edge by that. Not sure they can fight uphill through that kind of secondary deficiency.
Edit: Re, comments for wuestenfux's list... instead of Rad Wreathed, I might take the phalanx one (infantry units that haven't moved get +1 to all saves as long as the weapons shooting are 1 damage). Everything in your list is infantry, so it can all be affected. Half your games you'll be going second, so everyone will just get +1 to save vs 1 damage weapons, full stop. On those cases where you don't go second, you've still got a lot of models that can get by with the old 'remain stationary, charge' kind of situation, and a lot of objective sitters who don't need to move after 1. I think it's worth a try. (Remember those LHD will be 10 points cheaper each!)
If this is accurate, that pretty much confirms the DDA as the better option over the Doomstalker, right?
From my testing I would say yes. 3 DDAs is 510, 3 Doomstalkers with a Cryptek is 510. The Cryptek's healing and shooting do not measure up to QS and the increased number of gauss shots. The Cryptek is 90 pts for 140 pts of firepower assuming you are having him babysit 3 Doomstalkers. If anything I think I would have liked to see Doomsday Arks stay the same and Doomstalkers go down 5 pts.
40kenthusiast wrote: So, like, remember that the most common result of a good balancing change is your list getting more expensive.
The stuff we are playing is the best stuff in the dex (that's why we are playing it), so if anything is getting a points bump, it will be that. The stuff we didn't take is getting a decrease, because it isn't even worth taking.
That said, I think the biggest change to the Necron codex wasn't in our points, it was in those secondaries. The new version of 'thin their ranks' counts wounds on stuff that isn't a monster or a vehicle. Everyone with 3 scarab units gonna be giving up the 15 on that strat, every game.
Silver Tide style lists (or whatever we are calling the 3 max scarabs, 2 max warriors, 2 c'tan, 3 plasmancers, etc) style lists may have been pushed off the edge by that. Not sure they can fight uphill through that kind of secondary deficiency.
Erm, its still 10W for 1 VP right? A minimum squad of 3 scarabs is 12 wounds so will just give up 1 VP, and 3 squads would give up 3VP. If you bring 3 min squads, I don't think its an auto 15 points for your opponent. Its only a problem if you bring 3 squads of like max number of scarabs, then thats gonna be an autotake for your opponent.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I wonder if heavy destroyers are worth it now at 60 points for one. Serious consideration.
Like two will usually reliable kill a tank if they both hit. Unless the said tank has an invul save and makes it. Two shots hitting will probably kill a Redemptor Dreadnaught too.
Two now cost 120 points. Which is more or less equal to what a tank in any faction costs these days.
Even if they die straight afterwards after killing said tank, you traded 120 points for killing a tank or a Redemptor Dreadnaught. Seems like a fair trade? And they fly move reasonably well, so you can hide them behind obscuring before flying them out only when there are good targets for them. They are like one shot weapons for taking out tanks. Everything after the turn you shoot them, if they are still around to shoot, its a bonus.
Both Destroyers are still too expensive, they need to drop another 5-10 points. The doom scythe needs a 40 points decrease. The monolith needs at least 50. I dont understand what GW is thinking. A monolith is pretty much immobile without FLY, unless there is no terrain on the table. They could have made it a fortification instead of a LOW, would be the same.
Now that tesla immortals are a bit cheaper, I am looking at the gauss ap and still liking it a bit more. What would be a better unit of 10 to support two blocks of warriors, or is it still a third block of warriors?
Necrons are really getting hit hard by the new secondaries and new armies that put out enough dakka to wipe 20-man warrior squads in a single activation. The codex is really being exposed at this point as an example of the typical GW pattern of making the early codexes in an edition underpowered compared to the later codex creep. Compare doomstalkers to lascannon chickens, it's a literal joke.
That's the same as for Orks and Dark Angels, 9x more than Aeldari, 3x more than tyranids, twice as much as Blood Angels, etc. It's a respectable, middle of the pack, kind of showing.
So, to say we are underpowered, you must be saying that that's going to change, going forward, yeah?
I'm just not sure I buy that. Like, the changes aren't particularly singling us out, and the Ad Mech aren't any worse than Drukhari in terms of being stronk. I think we'll soldier on, continue as a middle of the road codex.
40kenthusiast wrote: So, to say we are underpowered, you must be saying that that's going to change, going forward, yeah?
I'm just not sure I buy that. Like, the changes aren't particularly singling us out, and the Ad Mech aren't any worse than Drukhari in terms of being stronk. I think we'll soldier on, continue as a middle of the road codex.
AdMech are a problem because they can delete 20 Warriors in a single shooting or melee attack pretty easily, making Reanimation Protocols useless. Drukhari have fewer ways of doing that much damage. Incubi, Drazhar, 2 liquefiers and Kabalites/Trueborn all cannot do that, the units that can kill more than 10 are melee units. 20 Vanguard (170 pts) point at a block of Warriors, pay 1CP and makes them disappear in a puff of smoke with 21 unsaved wounds. Kastelan Robots also have the firepower to end a unit of Warriors without RP. DDAs are resistant to the new and improved lascannons which is nice, but Drukhari are the new meta, if you look at winning lists they really have adapted to Drukhari, it's 90% anti-Drukhari. As the meta share of Drukhari and AdMech consumes everything Necron win rates will fall. What is the chance that an army can beat Drukhari or AdMech but not Necrons? Basically zero, no new codex is going to bring balance to the force.
I see 9 mentions of Necrons in the top 4's.
Look at the win-rate and TWIP, Necrons are just really popular, they won't be when they stop being middle of the pack and become bottom of the pack, we'll be back to 8th edition.
yukishiro1 wrote: Necrons are really getting hit hard by the new secondaries and new armies that put out enough dakka to wipe 20-man warrior squads in a single activation. The codex is really being exposed at this point as an example of the typical GW pattern of making the early codexes in an edition underpowered compared to the later codex creep. Compare doomstalkers to lascannon chickens, it's a literal joke.
Underpoweredness can become an issue as codex creep is a fact.
But playing an army also depends on the General itself and here you should rely on tactics, experience and faith.
I like those kind of challenges. Going to a tourney with an ''underpowered'' army and doing well.
So new faqs dropped and they kinda messed with the fighting order.
Charging now counts as "fight first" rule.
Impending tons of arguments about the Silent King's aura being 'negated' by charging, even though it does not say anything about "fight last" edit: nvm, apparently they included his aura in the "examples of fight last mechanics"
Seriously? SK better get a price drop at some point then since his aura literally does nothing now on the first round of combat.
C'tan seems very good against Admech. A pure admech list has no psykers and many admech players and lists seem to focus mainly on only shooting. Especially since Rangers and vanguard are so good now.
One or more C'tan can literally stand in front of an admech army and survive for 4 turns or possibly more. Because it doesn't matter how good your shooting is if you can only do 3 damage maximum to a C'tan during that phase.
The smart Admech players will bring in an inquisitor and run at least one or two melee units, but then it won't be quite so shooty anymore. Even psykers can be played around by having something infront of the C;tan to absorb the smites. Psychic happens before shooting.
Eldenfirefly wrote: C'tan seems very good against Admech. A pure admech list has no psykers and many admech players and lists seem to focus mainly on only shooting. Especially since Rangers and vanguard are so good now.
One or more C'tan can literally stand in front of an admech army and survive for 4 turns or possibly more. Because it doesn't matter how good your shooting is if you can only do 3 damage maximum to a C'tan during that phase.
The smart Admech players will bring in an inquisitor and run at least one or two melee units, but then it won't be quite so shooty anymore. Even psykers can be played around by having something infront of the C;tan to absorb the smites. Psychic happens before shooting.
Most AdMech lists run at least one melee unit, your C'tan won't survive past turn 3. Delivering 3 wounds per shooting phase is an afterthought. It takes 4 Vanguard to deal 3 damage to a C'tan. That's 32 points. So your opponent is spending less than 65 points to plink 3 wounds off 2 C'ta n. For the rest of your 1300 point list he now has 1930 points of shooting. Enough to kill a unit of Warriors and a Doomsday Ark per turn. Turn 3 you'll be tabled, turn 2 if you are running your C'tan aggressively and Doomstalkers instead of DDAs.
Voltagheist Field (Fulgurite Electro-Priests): All models in this unit have a 5+ invulnerable save. When this unit completes a charge move, pick one of the target units you charged and roll a D6 for each model in the charging unit. Any rolls of 6 inflict a mortal wound on the unit you picked.
That's not, like, a useful way to measure how fast C'tan die. (You could make the same argument with a mob of ork boys or gaunts)
The problem isn't that the Admech melee unit gets them on turn 3 (surely it's not alive on turn 3, yeah?), it's that anything can melee 3 wounds off a C'tan.
But in a game where, increasingly, an enemy that gets shooting line on your units, or charge distance on them, picks them up, the C'tan are a piece that they have to access two or 3 times.
Using C'tan right takes a bit of practice, but they have a high skill ceiling. I dunno if they are good or not vs. Ad Mech yet, but it's a much more complicated question than whether or not Ad Mech shooting can do 3 wounds to them per phase.
The new Chapter Approved is changing the Command Benefit of the Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment to give you +2cp if it’s Faction matches that of your Warlord’s, so long as it isn’t one of the blanket ones like Imperium, Aeldadi, ect.
Has anyone been thinking about LHDs and LDs in a Mephrit list after reductions? I would love some input on how a unit or a couple singles might be useful to add to a mostly middle of the board force.
I don't typically, with Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers want the Mephrit -1 AP bonus. I'd usually prefer the 6+ invul save/pregame move for a list that was heavy on that kind of deal.
In any case, the fact that a pair of Heavy Destroyers is now just slightly cheaper than an Annihilation Barge, while having the same total # of wounds, strikes me as interesting. My list is Mephrit, so I still prefer the barge, but I could well imagine a Szarekhan or custom dynasty making the opposite choice.
40kenthusiast wrote: I don't typically, with Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers want the Mephrit -1 AP bonus. I'd usually prefer the 6+ invul save/pregame move for a list that was heavy on that kind of deal.
In any case, the fact that a pair of Heavy Destroyers is now just slightly cheaper than an Annihilation Barge, while having the same total # of wounds, strikes me as interesting. My list is Mephrit, so I still prefer the barge, but I could well imagine a Szarekhan or custom dynasty making the opposite choice.
Well, I'm more into infantry these days and so I'd consider Destroyers in the first place.
Individual Lokhust Heavy Destroyers are even more appealing as action monkeys now.
40pts for 2 Cryptothralls is the baseline cost of action monkeys for crons, so an extra 20 to have a giant gun doesn't seem bad. After they have raised banners, or done the home quarters for the new scramblers, they can start blasting.
AduroT wrote: Auxiliary Super Heavy Detachment going down to 1cp. Monolith stock going up?
Maybe, maybe.
I could see a place for the Necron super heavies for only 1cp....They're just overcosted in points now.
The monolith is actually quite good for it points to stats comparison. Probably the best unit in the codex if you look at it by those stats alone. In practice though...it doesn't get dynasty traits unless you bring 3 of them can barely move on the table. Big issues. If it was a HS choice at it's current point level though - every army would be running 3 of them. They are damn good for their points.
Though with DDA coming down in points (which also makes no sense - it was already our best HS choice) that might not be accurate anymore.
I feel that the Monolith is actually a skew unit. Some armies may find it extremely difficult to kill and to have something like that for just 360 points is not bad. But against other armies it will be a liability because they have the tools to kill it or they can play their mission fine while ignoring it.
Don't forget it has a 2+ armor save and T8. Low AP shots are a bad matchup for it and Str 8 guns only wound it on a 4+.
Position it strategically to block a chokepoint, and unless your opponent has fly, nothing on his side may be able to get through that chokepoint.
Or place it alone on a rear objective to guard that objective all 5 turns while still shooting all 5 turns. Its probably immune to many of the units that typically go after rear objectives.
AduroT wrote: Man I wish they got Dynasty Traits. The Nephrekh 6++ and +6” ignore terrain run would be sweet.
They do if you take them in a Superheavy Detachment.
I think we have enough going for us in LoW that we could probably come up with a viable list that uses 3 of them.
Quite what that is I am not sure, but I'm certain it can be done
Szarekh and two monoliths, I guess? I don't think the vault makes the cut even for this kind of list and the obelisk definitely doesn't. Of course if the SK is your third LOW then that has to be a Szarekhan detachment which isn't amazing for the monolith.
Szarekh and two monoliths, I guess? I don't think the vault makes the cut even for this kind of list and the obelisk definitely doesn't. Of course if the SK is your third LOW then that has to be a Szarekhan detachment which isn't amazing for the monolith.
Isn't Szarekh a Dynastic Agent? So he doesn't prevent other units in his detachment from gaining a Dynastic Code, so you can still get 2 Nephrekh Monoliths.
I did the math once on a King and Monolith Pair army and I think it was just more points that I wanted to put into it. I dunno. I’m currently painting my Monolith, and in a moment of foolishness I got a King but haven’t assembled him yet. Maybe once he’s painted I’ll say F it and grab a second Monolith just to do a heavy skew.
I just… I just wanna Dimensional Corridor a unit 17” off the Deployment Line turn one. That’s practically a second Veil.
*Page 262 – Difficult Ground
Change this rule to read:
‘If a unit makes a Normal Move, Advances or Falls Back, and any
of its models wish to move over any part of this terrain feature,
subtract 2" from the Move characteristic of every model in that
unit (to a minimum of 0), even if every part of this terrain feature
is 1" or less in height. If a unit declares a charge, and any of its
models wish to move over any part of this terrain feature as
part of its subsequent charge move, subtract 2 from that unit’s
charge roll, even if every part of this terrain feature is 1" or less
in height. These modifiers do not apply if every model in the
moving unit can Fly. These modifiers do not apply if every model
in the moving unit is Titanic and this terrain feature is less than
3" in height. The height of a terrain feature is measured from the
highest point on that terrain feature.’
*Page 262 – Difficult Ground
Change this rule to read:
‘If a unit makes a Normal Move, Advances or Falls Back, and any
of its models wish to move over any part of this terrain feature,
subtract 2" from the Move characteristic of every model in that
unit (to a minimum of 0), even if every part of this terrain feature
is 1" or less in height. If a unit declares a charge, and any of its
models wish to move over any part of this terrain feature as
part of its subsequent charge move, subtract 2 from that unit’s
charge roll, even if every part of this terrain feature is 1" or less
in height. These modifiers do not apply if every model in the
moving unit can Fly. These modifiers do not apply if every model
in the moving unit is Titanic and this terrain feature is less than
3" in height. The height of a terrain feature is measured from the
highest point on that terrain feature.’
*Page 262 – Difficult Ground Change this rule to read: ‘If a unit makes a Normal Move, Advances or Falls Back, and any of its models wish to move over any part of this terrain feature, subtract 2" from the Move characteristic of every model in that unit (to a minimum of 0), even if every part of this terrain feature is 1" or less in height. If a unit declares a charge, and any of its models wish to move over any part of this terrain feature as part of its subsequent charge move, subtract 2 from that unit’s charge roll, even if every part of this terrain feature is 1" or less in height. These modifiers do not apply if every model in the moving unit can Fly. These modifiers do not apply if every model in the moving unit is Titanic and this terrain feature is less than 3" in height. The height of a terrain feature is measured from the highest point on that terrain feature.’
Uh... I dont wanna sound agressive, but how doesn't it?
Not aggressive at all, you're just taking "These modifiers do not apply if every model in the moving unit is Titanic and this terrain feature is less than 3" in height." which refers to the rules about subtracting 2 from your movement and charge distance for difficult ground and applying it as if it says "A TITANIC model can be moved over terrain features that are 3" or less in height as if they were not there – any vertical distance up and/or down that they would have to make to traverse such terrain features is ignored." which is not what the rule says. You still have to go up, over and down terrain features like barricades, you just ignore the -2 penalty for difficult ground if it's less than 3" tall.
Not aggressive at all, you're just taking "These modifiers do not apply if every model
in the moving unit is Titanic and this terrain feature is less than 3" in height." which refers to the rules about subtracting 2 from your movement and charge distance for difficult ground and applying it as if it says "A TITANIC model can be moved over terrain features that are 3" or less in height as if they were not there – any vertical distance up and/or down that they would have to make to traverse such terrain features is ignored." which is not what the rule says. You still have to go up, over and down terrain features like barricades, you just ignore the -2 penalty for difficult ground if it's less than 3" tall.
Which helps a little, but not much. Titanic models should ignore all terrain that is less than 3" in height.
The other problem with the monolith is it has solid shooting but to fully make use of the points, you really have to maximize use of the portal and related strats, and it takes a lot of points to do that as well. In addition, ignoring the movement problems, getting it into position to apply guys through the portal in time for it to make a difference is strongly dependent on match up and the stars aligning correctly. There are a lot of restrictions on when you can use these abilities that don't play well together. "Can't be used in the first turn." "Can't be used if you moved this turn."
What is the best character to put a VoD on? I currently have it set up on my chronomancer, but I don’t want it to teleport alongside the warriors because it will be nuked immediately after, and even if not, it is out of position for buffing the rest of my army in subsequent turns.
teamtigerstripe wrote: What is the best character to put a VoD on? I currently have it set up on my chronomancer, but I don’t want it to teleport alongside the warriors because it will be nuked immediately after, and even if not, it is out of position for buffing the rest of my army in subsequent turns.
Royal Warden/Destroyer Lord - aggressive
Any other character - defensive
For defensive purposes, you want to be able to split your fall back + shoot, for offence the melee of Destroyer Lord, RF of Royal Warden + his buff is more valuable so close to the enemy than any other buff.
I’d still call the Royal Warden defensive. He’s just keeping out of melee of you’re worried about getting tied up. Chrono/Technomancer for their obvious benefits. Plas/Psychomancer are what I’d call the offensive ones, as well as Lords.
AduroT wrote: I’d still call the Royal Warden defensive. He’s just keeping out of melee of you’re worried about getting tied up. Chrono/Technomancer for their obvious benefits. Plas/Psychomancer are what I’d call the offensive ones, as well as Lords.
Why put the Veil on a Royal Warden instead of another character in your list if you want to use the Veil defensively? The only reason I can think of would be because you are giving the other character the Voltaic Staff.
What? I never use a Veil defensively, I’m just referring to how the character itself acts when it gets there. Is it lending its weigh to the offense or working to protect the unit it transported. The Warden, Chrono, and Techno utilize their abilities to defend their charge, while the Plas, Psycho, and Destroyer Lord more just go murder happy when they get there.
AduroT wrote: What? I never use a Veil defensively, I’m just referring to how the character itself acts when it gets there. Is it lending its weigh to the offense or working to protect the unit it transported. The Warden, Chrono, and Techno utilize their abilities to defend their charge, while the Plas, Psycho, and Destroyer Lord more just go murder happy when they get there.
It ensures your good melee unit doesn't end up tarpitted and have to waste time finishing off remnants of squad rather than hunt in for bigger fish.
AduroT wrote: What? I never use a Veil defensively, I’m just referring to how the character itself acts when it gets there. Is it lending its weigh to the offense or working to protect the unit it transported. The Warden, Chrono, and Techno utilize their abilities to defend their charge, while the Plas, Psycho, and Destroyer Lord more just go murder happy when they get there.
Defensively it what sense?
You could veil a unit to occupy a mission objective outside of your deployment zone. If the objective is close to your zone or in midfield, no need to veil in general. If it's in the enemy deployment zone, your unit is exposed to a lot of incoming enemy fire. I'd think twice to do so. It depends on terrain and the distribution of the enemy army on the battle field. This could be useful in mid- or endgame when the enemy has moved part of its army forward.
AduroT wrote: What? I never use a Veil defensively, I’m just referring to how the character itself acts when it gets there. Is it lending its weigh to the offense or working to protect the unit it transported. The Warden, Chrono, and Techno utilize their abilities to defend their charge, while the Plas, Psycho, and Destroyer Lord more just go murder happy when they get there.
Defensively it what sense?
You could veil a unit to occupy a mission objective outside of your deployment zone. If the objective is close to your zone or in midfield, no need to veil in general. If it's in the enemy deployment zone, your unit is exposed to a lot of incoming enemy fire. I'd think twice to do so. It depends on terrain and the distribution of the enemy army on the battle field. This could be useful in mid- or endgame when the enemy has moved part of its army forward.
Why are you asking me? I’m not the one who said using a Veil defensively.
Warden is awesome for veil because generally unless you are facing someone that can effortlessly wipe a 20man necron unit, theyre gonna end up in melee if anything just to stop them from shooting.
Warden just lets them back off freely.
Vineheart01 wrote: Warden is awesome for veil because generally unless you are facing someone that can effortlessly wipe a 20man necron unit, theyre gonna end up in melee if anything just to stop them from shooting.
Warden just lets them back off freely.
It really has to be the chronomancer. A 20 man warrior without the 5++ is a waste.
Vineheart01 wrote: Warden is awesome for veil because generally unless you are facing someone that can effortlessly wipe a 20man necron unit, theyre gonna end up in melee if anything just to stop them from shooting.
Warden just lets them back off freely.
It really has to be the chronomancer. A 20 man warrior without the 5++ is a waste.
This man speaks truth. The 5++ is the thing that makes 20 man squads last long enough to actually make use of RP, technomancers, and res orbs.
Oh yeah theres that too, i usually end up using the Chrono but sometimes i opt out of that since that usually shoe-horns him to ONLY buffing THAT squad instead of moving on to a less-damaged squad later on.
Thanks for the ideas. Follow-up question: I was not previously thinking about the warden because my starting build is Mephrit and runs the warden using the conduit of the stars. Is the conduit a good enough relic to justify the VoD on someone else like the chrono in a Mephrit list?
teamtigerstripe wrote: Thanks for the ideas. Follow-up question: I was not previously thinking about the warden because my starting build is Mephrit and runs the warden using the conduit of the stars. Is the conduit a good enough relic to justify the VoD on someone else like the chrono in a Mephrit list?
Auto-include Relics: Veil of Darkness. Relics worth paying 1CP for: Blood Scythe, Conduit of Stars, Gauntlet of the Conflagrator, Infinity Mantle, Solar Staff, The Orb of Infinity, Voidreaper and Voltaic Staff. Bad Relics: Nanoscarab Casket, Sempiternal Weave, The Arrow of Infinity, The Sovereign Coronal and The Vanquisher's Mask.
Triple relic armies don't make sense unless you test your list and find that you never use all your CP, Voltaic Staff is probably the second-best relic we have.
I always take a Voltaic Staff, I don’t always take a Veil depending on the army. I have triple reliced once to get Voltaic, Veil, and a Solar Staff into a 2k list.
Also I’ve not run any Chronomancers. Haven’t bothered to convert any and the models just ain’t been readily available, plus I play Nephrekh so I’ve already got army wide 6++.
Irdiumstern wrote: If I have a spare character, I'm probably taking the veil even without CORE Infantry, just to have someone that can jump around lategame if necessary.
VoD can interrupt enemy plans and is actually a must-have.
Warriors and Lychguard are the main targets for deep-striking, although I've seen several games in the previous edition where Darius' veiling of Lychguard resulted in a failed charge.
AduroT wrote: I always take a Voltaic Staff, I don’t always take a Veil depending on the army.
Mistake IMO, unless you're not running Core Infantry. Voltaic Staff has too many things going for it to not include it, 4,5x damage vs Raiders.
Wait… Are you arguing For or Against the Voltaic Staff? Or did you misread my post?
Veil of Darkness is the first thing you should take if you want to win, then if you have a character that can take Voltaic Staff, you should pay 1CP to do so.
I played my first couple of games with my Necrons (new army, long time 40K player). Aside from challenges of learning a new army, I found myself using less CP than my other army, Craftworld. By turn 5, I would have 3-4 CP left to use on the final turn. This is in stark contrast to my Craftworld army.
Sarigar wrote: I played my first couple of games with my Necrons (new army, long time 40K player). Aside from challenges of learning a new army, I found myself using less CP than my other army, Craftworld. By turn 5, I would have 3-4 CP left to use on the final turn. This is in stark contrast to my Craftworld army.
What are other's experiences in CP usage?
Almost every stratagem is 1 CP. Every turn I spend 2 cp to get exploding 6's and 6's auto wound on a unit of infantry. Anytime Lych get into melee I give them +1 attack. The rest of the time its pretty much command rerolls.
I never ever have found paying a CP for rolling 6's worthy.
No return of investment. Not enough shots to make a difference..
On what unit do you use it?
Krull wrote: I never ever have found paying a CP for rolling 6's worthy.
No return of investment. Not enough shots to make a difference..
On what unit do you use it?
Does it matter if you otherwise end up with CP leftover if you don't just spend them, even on bad Stratagems?
(First time poster - read the entire thread though)
I tend to use my CP for Solar pulse to strip cover from a unit I plan on shooting with multiple units of my own, as it's a debuff that lasts the entire shooting phase.
I've also used 6's to hit are auto wounds on large warrior blobs, this does add a few wounds especially vs dreadnoughts for example, where the -2 AP of the reapers is also pretty decent (it's an emergency type of thing, not a plan A). I don't rate the 6's to hit are extra hits very high, as you still need to wound with those, and that stratagem is only for rapid fire weapons, so does not work on reaper warriors.
I also think that the Skorphek stratagem is really good if you have Skorpheks.
Mephrit mortal wound strat
Ignore Cover Strat
6's auto wound strat (on reaper warriors)
Tomb Blades advance + shoot strat
Basic Rule Book reroll strat
C'tan change power strat
Strats I keep in mind for rare occasions
Auto explode my vehicle strat
Cryptek heal 2 units strat
Character resurrect on 4+ strat
C'tan extra power strat
In general, though, I find we have fairly garbo strats compared to a lot of other codexes. I'm often fine spending those CP on formations, warlord traits and relics, if I can find any decent ones.
Unfortunately I think the answer is probably just "more Chronomancers". The unit veiling across the board wants the buff and so does the rest of your army. 2+ is probably the way to go.
Basically whenever I'm looking at a support character for Necrons I ask if a Chronomancer wouldn't be a better pick. It always feels like it would be.
Voltaic staff goes on the Overlord. Chronomancers have a good gun already.
Mandragola wrote: Unfortunately I think the answer is probably just "more Chronomancers". The unit veiling across the board wants the buff and so does the rest of your army. 2+ is probably the way to go.
Basically whenever I'm looking at a support character for Necrons I ask if a Chronomancer wouldn't be a better pick. It always feels like it would be.
Voltaic staff goes on the Overlord. Chronomancers have a good gun already.
The only exception to the "is a chronomancer better" is usually when I think about whether I want to veil Lychguard with shields. Generally speaking, it's not an amazing move since you lose the buff (no more +1 attacks strat) but sometimes planning a game around a psychomancer veiling with Lychguard can actually be pretty strong. If the plan is more about objective control than damage output, the psychomancer's moral phase powers can be pretty awesome. Again, someone will likely point out better options, but this is a fun move on occasion since the shield-guard don't need the invuln.
I appreciate the input. Damage output was another area that intrigued me. I'm building 10 Lychguard and dropping Skorpek Destroyers and some Scarabs. The army does not seem to deal as much damage as my Craftworld. However, it is much easier to score 40-45 points for Primary. It has been interesting how different this army plays.
Sarigar wrote: I appreciate the input. Damage output was another area that intrigued me. I'm building 10 Lychguard and dropping Skorpek Destroyers and some Scarabs. The army does not seem to deal as much damage as my Craftworld. However, it is much easier to score 40-45 points for Primary. It has been interesting how different this army plays.
Eldar kin is rather fragile - speed is their armour. But this causes problems when it comes to primaries.
Therefore, I'm sticking with Necrons atm. Lychguard, e.g., are hard to shift.
Mandragola wrote: Unfortunately I think the answer is probably just "more Chronomancers". The unit veiling across the board wants the buff and so does the rest of your army. 2+ is probably the way to go.
Basically whenever I'm looking at a support character for Necrons I ask if a Chronomancer wouldn't be a better pick. It always feels like it would be.
Voltaic staff goes on the Overlord. Chronomancers have a good gun already.
The only exception to the "is a chronomancer better" is usually when I think about whether I want to veil Lychguard with shields. Generally speaking, it's not an amazing move since you lose the buff (no more +1 attacks strat) but sometimes planning a game around a psychomancer veiling with Lychguard can actually be pretty strong. If the plan is more about objective control than damage output, the psychomancer's moral phase powers can be pretty awesome. Again, someone will likely point out better options, but this is a fun move on occasion since the shield-guard don't need the invuln.
This is very true, and a major argument in favour of sword and board lychguard. I think they might actually be the stand out unit in our book. There's just not very many things that are really tuned to deal with them and you can make them obsec. They're also by far the best unit for coming on from reserve (through whatever method) because they don't need to have been there in the command phase to collect buffs.
The Psychomancer is probably the most interesting Cryptek. He doesn't have the simple power of the Chronomancer but it's true that, in a game that's about scoring objectives, he looks like he has skills that you want. I've built one and, as a random aside, I think it had more pieces than any other infantry model I've ever seen. There's also something kind of cute about a model with fly and a 5" move.
Krull wrote: I never ever have found paying a CP for rolling 6's worthy.
No return of investment. Not enough shots to make a difference..
On what unit do you use it?
Warriors and Immortals. Take max squads. It pays off.
I find this combo more than doubles the damage of an immortal unit. Which is a big deal if we are talking about ap -3 gauss.
Mandragola wrote: Unfortunately I think the answer is probably just "more Chronomancers". The unit veiling across the board wants the buff and so does the rest of your army. 2+ is probably the way to go.
Basically whenever I'm looking at a support character for Necrons I ask if a Chronomancer wouldn't be a better pick. It always feels like it would be.
Voltaic staff goes on the Overlord. Chronomancers have a good gun already.
The only exception to the "is a chronomancer better" is usually when I think about whether I want to veil Lychguard with shields. Generally speaking, it's not an amazing move since you lose the buff (no more +1 attacks strat) but sometimes planning a game around a psychomancer veiling with Lychguard can actually be pretty strong. If the plan is more about objective control than damage output, the psychomancer's moral phase powers can be pretty awesome. Again, someone will likely point out better options, but this is a fun move on occasion since the shield-guard don't need the invuln.
This is very true, and a major argument in favour of sword and board lychguard. I think they might actually be the stand out unit in our book. There's just not very many things that are really tuned to deal with them and you can make them obsec. They're also by far the best unit for coming on from reserve (through whatever method) because they don't need to have been there in the command phase to collect buffs.
The Psychomancer is probably the most interesting Cryptek. He doesn't have the simple power of the Chronomancer but it's true that, in a game that's about scoring objectives, he looks like he has skills that you want. I've built one and, as a random aside, I think it had more pieces than any other infantry model I've ever seen. There's also something kind of cute about a model with fly and a 5" move.
I'd take a hexmark destroyer over any of that nonsense.
Mandragola wrote: Unfortunately I think the answer is probably just "more Chronomancers". The unit veiling across the board wants the buff and so does the rest of your army. 2+ is probably the way to go.
Basically whenever I'm looking at a support character for Necrons I ask if a Chronomancer wouldn't be a better pick. It always feels like it would be.
Voltaic staff goes on the Overlord. Chronomancers have a good gun already.
The only exception to the "is a chronomancer better" is usually when I think about whether I want to veil Lychguard with shields. Generally speaking, it's not an amazing move since you lose the buff (no more +1 attacks strat) but sometimes planning a game around a psychomancer veiling with Lychguard can actually be pretty strong. If the plan is more about objective control than damage output, the psychomancer's moral phase powers can be pretty awesome. Again, someone will likely point out better options, but this is a fun move on occasion since the shield-guard don't need the invuln.
This is very true, and a major argument in favour of sword and board lychguard. I think they might actually be the stand out unit in our book. There's just not very many things that are really tuned to deal with them and you can make them obsec. They're also by far the best unit for coming on from reserve (through whatever method) because they don't need to have been there in the command phase to collect buffs.
The Psychomancer is probably the most interesting Cryptek. He doesn't have the simple power of the Chronomancer but it's true that, in a game that's about scoring objectives, he looks like he has skills that you want. I've built one and, as a random aside, I think it had more pieces than any other infantry model I've ever seen. There's also something kind of cute about a model with fly and a 5" move.
I'd take a hexmark destroyer over any of that nonsense.
I think the Hexmark Destroyer has it's place as a counter DS unit or an easy secondary scoring unit, but I don't think veiling Lychguard (regardless of the type of cryptek) generally fill the same role or purpose exactly. You don't want to be positioning your guard somewhere obscure even when they're going to perform an action for a turn. They need to be able to get near something quickly since they're such an impactful unit or even have them tarpit a primary objective for a while which a hexmark can't do. There's definitely some overlap there, but I think saying you'd take a hexmark over using the Lychguard + veil combo in every situation wouldn't quite cover things.
I can't really see any scenario where I'd use a hexmark destroyer. I'd take normal deathmarks first pretty much 100% of the time.
I don't really think I'll be veiling Lychguard much. For me, their strength is in an eternal expansionist force, contesting the midfield. They'll be relatively hard to get rid of in that role. I'm contemplating swapping out a block or two of 20 warriors for 10-man squads of these guys.
I'd then take something like one unit of 20 reaper warriors with a Veil Chronomancer (or possibly psychomancer) and a couple of immortal squads to fill out my troops and hold backfield objectives. With a CCB Lord, some scarabs and wraiths to zoom around and the nightbringer to kill tough things, I think that could be a decent enough army.
I'm actually not sure the psychomancer makes all that much sense to take the veil. Switching off obsec is mostly going to be useful in midfield, fighting over those central objectives. It doesn't do so much to remove it from back field units, which you'd expect the warriors to either kill or, in the unlikely event they manage a charge, massively outnumber anyway. But removing obsec from someone else's tough midfield unit could make a lot of difference.
Mandragola wrote: I can't really see any scenario where I'd use a hexmark destroyer. I'd take normal deathmarks first pretty much 100% of the time.
I don't really think I'll be veiling Lychguard much. For me, their strength is in an eternal expansionist force, contesting the midfield. They'll be relatively hard to get rid of in that role. I'm contemplating swapping out a block or two of 20 warriors for 10-man squads of these guys.
I'd then take something like one unit of 20 reaper warriors with a Veil Chronomancer (or possibly psychomancer) and a couple of immortal squads to fill out my troops and hold backfield objectives. With a CCB Lord, some scarabs and wraiths to zoom around and the nightbringer to kill tough things, I think that could be a decent enough army.
I'm actually not sure the psychomancer makes all that much sense to take the veil. Switching off obsec is mostly going to be useful in midfield, fighting over those central objectives. It doesn't do so much to remove it from back field units, which you'd expect the warriors to either kill or, in the unlikely event they manage a charge, massively outnumber anyway. But removing obsec from someone else's tough midfield unit could make a lot of difference.
One main reason I mentioned that the Hexmark Destroyer doesn't really fit into the same role is that it is a character, so it can take the Gauntlet artifact which people like to do a lot. This is used so that you can prevent an opponent DS 5 man unit from scoring an action secondary since it gets to shoot them on the opponent's turn and can definitely kill 5 models with its 6 pistols + bonus shots AND the gauntlet MWs. Doing that is kind of gimmicky, but if your opponent doesn't have a unit for that purpose, you can also use yours to do the same move to them (plus put out some not awful shooting).
You're definitely right about the midfield being the most likely place for Lychguard to shine (especially w/ the no obsec psychomancer ability) but quite a few missions don't have a centered objective, which means if you deploy to a side and your opponent audibles on you to avoid your guard, you may want the veil to move them to the other end of the board for maximum value. This isn't a particularly rare possibility either. Again I don't think it's a requirement that you take a psychomancer for this job but veiling lychguard is a fully viable option in situations like this. I find that the psychomancer pairs more effectively with the lychguard than with warriors since as you said, warriors will outnumber your opponent's units for the most part, whereas lychguard may not and depending on your dynasty may not be obsec themselves.
Driesel wrote: (First time poster - read the entire thread though)
I tend to use my CP for Solar pulse to strip cover from a unit I plan on shooting with multiple units of my own, as it's a debuff that lasts the entire shooting phase.
I've also used 6's to hit are auto wounds on large warrior blobs, this does add a few wounds especially vs dreadnoughts for example, where the -2 AP of the reapers is also pretty decent (it's an emergency type of thing, not a plan A). I don't rate the 6's to hit are extra hits very high, as you still need to wound with those, and that stratagem is only for rapid fire weapons, so does not work on reaper warriors.
I also think that the Skorphek stratagem is really good if you have Skorpheks.
I use the extra hit sometimes with 10 gauss immortals IF I'm in RF range. 20 shots so some 6's and S5 means wounding on 3+ often. If target is important to kill that can be worth it.
Compare to auto wound 2 hits at 3+ vs 1 auto wound. 2 hits wins.
My kind of stratagem. Can be good but not auto use. I hate auto use stratagems.
Mandragola wrote: I can't really see any scenario where I'd use a hexmark destroyer. I'd take normal deathmarks first pretty much 100% of the time.
I don't really think I'll be veiling Lychguard much. For me, their strength is in an eternal expansionist force, contesting the midfield. They'll be relatively hard to get rid of in that role. I'm contemplating swapping out a block or two of 20 warriors for 10-man squads of these guys.
I'd then take something like one unit of 20 reaper warriors with a Veil Chronomancer (or possibly psychomancer) and a couple of immortal squads to fill out my troops and hold backfield objectives. With a CCB Lord, some scarabs and wraiths to zoom around and the nightbringer to kill tough things, I think that could be a decent enough army.
I'm actually not sure the psychomancer makes all that much sense to take the veil. Switching off obsec is mostly going to be useful in midfield, fighting over those central objectives. It doesn't do so much to remove it from back field units, which you'd expect the warriors to either kill or, in the unlikely event they manage a charge, massively outnumber anyway. But removing obsec from someone else's tough midfield unit could make a lot of difference.
One main reason I mentioned that the Hexmark Destroyer doesn't really fit into the same role is that it is a character, so it can take the Gauntlet artifact which people like to do a lot. This is used so that you can prevent an opponent DS 5 man unit from scoring an action secondary since it gets to shoot them on the opponent's turn and can definitely kill 5 models with its 6 pistols + bonus shots AND the gauntlet MWs. Doing that is kind of gimmicky, but if your opponent doesn't have a unit for that purpose, you can also use yours to do the same move to them (plus put out some not awful shooting).
You're definitely right about the midfield being the most likely place for Lychguard to shine (especially w/ the no obsec psychomancer ability) but quite a few missions don't have a centered objective, which means if you deploy to a side and your opponent audibles on you to avoid your guard, you may want the veil to move them to the other end of the board for maximum value. This isn't a particularly rare possibility either. Again I don't think it's a requirement that you take a psychomancer for this job but veiling lychguard is a fully viable option in situations like this. I find that the psychomancer pairs more effectively with the lychguard than with warriors since as you said, warriors will outnumber your opponent's units for the most part, whereas lychguard may not and depending on your dynasty may not be obsec themselves.
I don't think the hexmark is all that likely to kill a 5-man squad. That obviously depends what kind of unit we're talking about, but if it's anything with two wounds base then it'll live. He can do quite a it of damage vs stuff like GSCs popping up I guess - not that those are particularly common. And the gauntlet won't help all that much against a small squad - it'll probably kill one guy. In general he'll do a bunch of damage to a T3 1W unit without much armour but very little to MEQs... which are extremely common.
He's interesting in that he's our only non-HQ character. So you can use him to get CPs into the enemy deployment zone if you want. Overall though I think he's very hard to justify. Like quite a lot of the new necron characters he suffers from having weapons that just aren't all that amazing, and which lack any kind of relic version to upgrade to. He just needs a D2 weapon, basically.
Fair point on the lack of a central objective, though it's still very common to find objectives on the centreline of the board, or near it. In any case, it does quite a lot of good to control the middle, as it lets you decide where to go from there - though obviously you should go towards one of the objectives most of the time.
I'd be quite interested to see if there was a version of silver tide where you used Lychguard instead of Warriors. I don't know if they're really good enough to use in this way, but it would be interesting to see how well you'd get on running 30 of the things. I'm a bit less interested in building and painting them though, I'm sorry to say.
Got my Deceiver onto the table for the first time over the weekend, 1000pt game vs Sisters.
Technomancer, pair of thralls, Deceiver, and the rest Warriors.
Morgan Vale (sp), Cannoness, “Chaplain”, 4 meltagun unit in rhino, 4 multi melta unit, new shields, and rest basic sisters with no specials.
Long and short of it, man that guy really dishes out the damage. Warriors didn’t do Nothing, but the Deceiver killed over half the opposing army by himself. Still lost in the end as he ended up Not Quite in the correct position to contest one objective. He traumatized my opponent though with the range he could effect things with his not attacks that didn’t give her many saves or counters. And this is considered the Weak one!
I'm just saying I'd rather use a veil hexmark over-
Warden/Psycho/or Chrono for lych.
Warriors should get a chrono without thinking twice IMO.
Giving a hexmark veil is interesting though. Think about these shenanigan's. If the opponent has a deep strike threat put him in reserve. Bring him down in their turn with the strat - get some shots into them and if you get locked in melee - Veil the unit out of CC so it can shoot. It's kind of like having a warden available for all the core units in your army.
If they don't have any deep strikes - you aren't losing anything for putting him on the table anyways...So this gives him a way to start shooting turn 1. This guy is so incredibly good vs DE and Quinns and admech....I think you gotta take one.
I am actually considering a Destroyer heavy list with an attack wing including 3 hexmarks Destro lord - I just don't know what screening unit to use for it. Can a Ctan screen for them?
AduroT wrote: I wanna get one, but the flgs has been unable to restock them since that first release weekend.
He is quite rare. You are gonna have to order 3rd party most likely.
I bought one online the day I was able and then my friend got me one as a gift within the same week or so for my birthday, lol. I ended up with two but so far I haven't seen two in a list being as useful as I'd like although I haven't built a list around multiple so who knows.
The Psychomancer is probably the most interesting Cryptek. He doesn't have the simple power of the Chronomancer but it's true that, in a game that's about scoring objectives, he looks like he has skills that you want. I've built one and, as a random aside, I think it had more pieces than any other infantry model I've ever seen. There's also something kind of cute about a model with fly and a 5" move.
Regarding Crypteks, the thing for me is that the Chronomancer just seems to do far more than the others.
Let's assume that its buff is roughly equal to the Psychomancer's debuff.
- The Chronomancer has better weapons.
- The Chronomancer has better movement.
- The Chronomancer gets a 4+ invulnerable save.
If the Psychomancer at least had the same 8" move and 4++ as the Chronomancer I'd probably rate it better (especially since it needs to get close to the enemy, whilst the Chronomancer only needs to be close to your own units). Otherwise, that 10pt difference seems to buy the Chronomancer a hell of a lot extra.
I also don't like that the Psychomancer's effect happens at the end of your turn - so if it fails then you have no opportunity to react and alter your plans before your opponent's turn.
The Psychomancer is probably the most interesting Cryptek. He doesn't have the simple power of the Chronomancer but it's true that, in a game that's about scoring objectives, he looks like he has skills that you want. I've built one and, as a random aside, I think it had more pieces than any other infantry model I've ever seen. There's also something kind of cute about a model with fly and a 5" move.
Regarding Crypteks, the thing for me is that the Chronomancer just seems to do far more than the others.
Let's assume that its buff is roughly equal to the Psychomancer's debuff.
- The Chronomancer has better weapons.
- The Chronomancer has better movement.
- The Chronomancer gets a 4+ invulnerable save.
If the Psychomancer at least had the same 8" move and 4++ as the Chronomancer I'd probably rate it better (especially since it needs to get close to the enemy, whilst the Chronomancer only needs to be close to your own units). Otherwise, that 10pt difference seems to buy the Chronomancer a hell of a lot extra.
I also don't like that the Psychomancer's effect happens at the end of your turn - so if it fails then you have no opportunity to react and alter your plans before your opponent's turn.
Aside from the obvious. No.
My best Idea is to take him and 3 hexmarks and put them behind something really durable just dropping shots with impunity. Scarabs with a chrono? This is sure getting expensive....
In a Destroyer list I would certainly include 1 or 2. Destroyers just aren't good enough to build heavy around though. Except for maybe skorpeks.
The Lokhust Lord is arguably the best guy to carry the voltaic staff, thanks to all his rerolls. He can take a res orb too. I guess there could be a place for one in the lychguard spam list I’m contemplating, as there’s a good case for bringing Anrakyr as my Lord. Of course, I could take a technomancer instead, or just not take the staff.
It’s true that the chronomancer is less of a weakling than other crypteks, but that’s not saying much. He’s still going to be pretty dead if an enemy unit gets hold of him. His speed is definitely useful though.
The psychomancer needs trying out, which I haven’t done. The Atavindicator is an interesting added bonus too, essentially a targeted smite, and potentially a good combo with C’tan chucking mortal wounds around.
In a way, these units aren’t in competition with each other. I’m not talking about dropping my Chronomancer. It’s about whether to bring a psychomancer as well, or possibly a second chronomancer, or just more bodies.
Techno IMO is auto include. Chrono is auto include if you bring brincks of warriors.
I agree that a destro lord is great for putting voltaic on. So is a techno...For 80 points the canoptec cloak techno is a steal. He revives a lychgaurd a turn and since I typically play as szarekahn he can heal the SK as well.
Mandragola wrote: The Lokhust Lord is arguably the best guy to carry the voltaic staff, thanks to all his rerolls. He can take a res orb too. I guess there could be a place for one in the lychguard spam list I’m contemplating, as there’s a good case for bringing Anrakyr as my Lord. Of course, I could take a technomancer instead, or just not take the staff.
Has anyone tried converting a Lokhust Destroyer into a Lord?
My only complaints about the destroyer lord is no MWBD.
Mandragola wrote: The Lokhust Lord is arguably the best guy to carry the voltaic staff, thanks to all his rerolls. He can take a res orb too. I guess there could be a place for one in the lychguard spam list I’m contemplating, as there’s a good case for bringing Anrakyr as my Lord. Of course, I could take a technomancer instead, or just not take the staff.
Has anyone tried converting a Lokhust Destroyer into a Lord?
My only complaints about the destroyer lord is no MWBD.
I made one out of CCB overlord and a LHD. He looks okay. I have a lot of complaints...not a noble even though hes a lord. No MYBD. Low AF attacks. BS3+.
Mandragola wrote: The Lokhust Lord is arguably the best guy to carry the voltaic staff, thanks to all his rerolls. He can take a res orb too. I guess there could be a place for one in the lychguard spam list I’m contemplating, as there’s a good case for bringing Anrakyr as my Lord. Of course, I could take a technomancer instead, or just not take the staff.
Has anyone tried converting a Lokhust Destroyer into a Lord?
My only complaints about the destroyer lord is no MWBD.
I made one out of CCB overlord and a LHD. He looks okay. I have a lot of complaints...not a noble even though hes a lord. No MYBD. Low AF attacks. BS3+.
I've half done one combining a LHD and a Skorpekh Lord. I'm not sure what weapons to give him and to be honest he's unlikely to see the table, so I've been working on other things.
Mandragola wrote: The Lokhust Lord is arguably the best guy to carry the voltaic staff, thanks to all his rerolls. He can take a res orb too. I guess there could be a place for one in the lychguard spam list I’m contemplating, as there’s a good case for bringing Anrakyr as my Lord. Of course, I could take a technomancer instead, or just not take the staff.
Has anyone tried converting a Lokhust Destroyer into a Lord?
My only complaints about the destroyer lord is no MWBD.
I made one out of CCB overlord and a LHD. He looks okay. I have a lot of complaints...not a noble even though hes a lord. No MYBD. Low AF attacks. BS3+.
I've half done one combining a LHD and a Skorpekh Lord. I'm not sure what weapons to give him and to be honest he's unlikely to see the table, so I've been working on other things.
Voltaic staff or the relic warscythe are both good options. Res Orb if you want. You can also make him pretty tough with WL trait and relic combos too.
Mandragola wrote: The Lokhust Lord is arguably the best guy to carry the voltaic staff, thanks to all his rerolls. He can take a res orb too. I guess there could be a place for one in the lychguard spam list I’m contemplating, as there’s a good case for bringing Anrakyr as my Lord. Of course, I could take a technomancer instead, or just not take the staff.
Has anyone tried converting a Lokhust Destroyer into a Lord?
My only complaints about the destroyer lord is no MWBD.
I made one out of CCB overlord and a LHD. He looks okay. I have a lot of complaints...not a noble even though hes a lord. No MYBD. Low AF attacks. BS3+.
Destroyer Lords not being Lords seems to be a big issue in general - I tried running a Skorpekh Lord the other day but it just feels bad how all of our killy HQ stuff is incompatible with our killiest HQ because he isn't a Noble.
It's really really hard to make fighting Necron characters match up to other codex's characters. They just don't fight all that hard. You pay > 100 points for 4 attacks with limited rerolls that cost CP's.
Yeah I think fighty characters are basically a waste of time. Necrons aren't a particularly lethal army anyway, but what threat we do have comes from units, not characters. So my dilemma with the Lokhust Lord was whether to make him with the voltaic staff or the relic scythe. I could potentially try and make some sort of magnetised option, but a staff is a difficult shape for that.
I'm not sure when I'd ever take him though. Even if I did take a special character Overlord and I wanted a caddy for a res orb and the voltaic staff, I'd almost certainly be better off taking a normal Overlord or CCB. I do actually have 12 Skorpekhs so I guess I could run him with the scythe and aim for melee, but I'm not convinced that's actually a very good army. It would probably need a Chronomancer for each Skorpekh unit too. You kind of only want one Skorpekh squad so you can use the strat on it, but in that case it's not really justified to bring a Lord to buff them.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah I think fighty characters are basically a waste of time. Necrons aren't a particularly lethal army anyway, but what threat we do have comes from units, not characters. So my dilemma with the Lokhust Lord was whether to make him with the voltaic staff or the relic scythe. I could potentially try and make some sort of magnetised option, but a staff is a difficult shape for that.
I'm not sure when I'd ever take him though. Even if I did take a special character Overlord and I wanted a caddy for a res orb and the voltaic staff, I'd almost certainly be better off taking a normal Overlord or CCB. I do actually have 12 Skorpekhs so I guess I could run him with the scythe and aim for melee, but I'm not convinced that's actually a very good army. It would probably need a Chronomancer for each Skorpekh unit too. You kind of only want one Skorpekh squad so you can use the strat on it, but in that case it's not really justified to bring a Lord to buff them.
In the 6th and 7th eds, especially in tourneys, I played two Destroyer Lords leading some Wraith units.
Today, I'd use an Overload with barge. If used right, this guy can wreck havoc behind enemy lines.
Mandragola wrote: I do actually have 12 Skorpekhs so I guess I could run him with the scythe and aim for melee, but I'm not convinced that's actually a very good army.
I have tried out a lot of wacky lists, 3x6 Skorpekhs + 2 Lokhust Lords among them, you can find 3 short battle reports with the list in the battle report section of Dakka. Short version is that Skorpekhs are a lot better than Ophydians and can help carry casual games. Lokhust Lords are pretty meh, but they are not terrible either, you are getting a lot of toughness for not that many points and our other HQs provide pretty measly buffs.
Mandragola wrote: I do actually have 12 Skorpekhs so I guess I could run him with the scythe and aim for melee, but I'm not convinced that's actually a very good army.
I have tried out a lot of wacky lists, 3x6 Skorpekhs + 2 Lokhust Lords among them, you can find 3 short battle reports with the list in the battle report section of Dakka. Short version is that Skorpekhs are a lot better than Ophydians and can help carry casual games. Lokhust Lords are pretty meh, but they are not terrible either, you are getting a lot of toughness for not that many points and our other HQs provide pretty measly buffs.
My take on Lokhust Lords so far is that they're only worth it when fielding a heavy amount of Lokhust Destroyers and LHDs since you can far more easily keep him alive, and the range/strength of LHDs alone benefit massively from more consistency. Even then it's a fairly hefty tax for the value you gain but the output can be pretty solid. LDs and LHDs are unfortunately still a bit 'meh' for the cost but fun in a non-competitive game. Again, all from my anecdotal experience rather than statistics or large-scale testing.
I just started building a Necron army and am looking to do a classic horde of warriors with some support units.
I'm thinking, maybe around 50-60 warriors. I was thinking about supporting them with 1 or 2 doomstalkers and a Monolith, some Skorpekh Destroyers for fast attack (i.e. carnifex distraction), for HQ choices I like the idea of a Skorpekh Lord leading the destroyers, an Overlord to support the warriors and a Chronomancer.
oni wrote: I just started building a Necron army and am looking to do a classic horde of warriors with some support units.
I'm thinking, maybe around 50-60 warriors. I was thinking about supporting them with 1 or 2 doomstalkers and a Monolith, some Skorpekh Destroyers for fast attack (i.e. carnifex distraction), for HQ choices I like the idea of a Skorpekh Lord leading the destroyers, an Overlord to support the warriors and a Chronomancer.
Thank you for any comments and advice.
There's been quite a few lists created in the 'army list' forum focused on 'warrior spam' which you could reference for some ideas. There's a lot of conversation on the value of certain units that goes on there so I'd suggest taking a look through those at least briefly.
oni wrote: I just started building a Necron army and am looking to do a classic horde of warriors with some support units.
I'm thinking, maybe around 50-60 warriors. I was thinking about supporting them with 1 or 2 doomstalkers and a Monolith, some Skorpekh Destroyers for fast attack (i.e. carnifex distraction), for HQ choices I like the idea of a Skorpekh Lord leading the destroyers, an Overlord to support the warriors and a Chronomancer.
Thank you for any comments and advice.
If you are just starting out with crons. I think you might want to consider Immortals over warriors. Warriors are good but they have a lot of limitations that immortals don't.
Cynista wrote: The 2 Destroyer Lords are the most dissapointing units in the whole codex tbh, especially the Skorpekh Lord
DGDP w/ sword and plague spewer is 155 vs Skorpekh Lord for 130. 8W 3+ 5++ DR vs 6W 3+ 4++ LM. 6A S8 AP-3 3D vs 8A S6 AP-1 1D RR 1s to hit and to wound or 4A S8 AP-4 3D RR 1s to hit and to wound. 3,5 hits 12" S5 AP-1 vs 4 hits 18" S6 AP-1 1D.
Skorpekh Lord seems to be roughly 3/4ths of a DG Daemon Prince that would make him worth 115 points, needing a 15 pt or 12% cost reduction to be competitive is enough to say that you don't want to be taking two of them every game or something like that, but I think most disappointing unit in the codex has to be an overstatement unless you believe no units in our codex is trash tier or you were hoping that 9th was going to be Skorpekh Lord meta.
oni wrote: I just started building a Necron army and am looking to do a classic horde of warriors with some support units.
I'm thinking, maybe around 50-60 warriors. I was thinking about supporting them with 1 or 2 doomstalkers and a Monolith, some Skorpekh Destroyers for fast attack (i.e. carnifex distraction), for HQ choices I like the idea of a Skorpekh Lord leading the destroyers, an Overlord to support the warriors and a Chronomancer.
Thank you for any comments and advice.
Well, I'd support the Warriors by The Silent King as he some buffs for them and this guy is hard to shift.
Cynista wrote: The 2 Destroyer Lords are the most dissapointing units in the whole codex tbh, especially the Skorpekh Lord
DGDP w/ sword and plague spewer is 155 vs Skorpekh Lord for 130. 8W 3+ 5++ DR vs 6W 3+ 4++ LM. 6A S8 AP-3 3D vs 8A S6 AP-1 1D RR 1s to hit and to wound or 4A S8 AP-4 3D RR 1s to hit and to wound. 3,5 hits 12" S5 AP-1 vs 4 hits 18" S6 AP-1 1D.
Skorpekh Lord seems to be roughly 3/4ths of a DG Daemon Prince that would make him worth 115 points, needing a 15 pt or 12% cost reduction to be competitive is enough to say that you don't want to be taking two of them every game or something like that, but I think most disappointing unit in the codex has to be an overstatement unless you believe no units in our codex is trash tier or you were hoping that 9th was going to be Skorpekh Lord meta.
The Daemon prince has 6 attacks (plus a claw) compared to the Skorpekh's 4. It has an aura that lets DG core units within 6" reroll 1s to hit and he's a psyker. He probably has wings rather than the gun, and is generally just a really different unit. It's probably just not a great comparison but the DP seems way more badass as an HQ, and brings much more utility, than the Skorpekh does.
The Lokhust Lord brings something else important though: a res orb. I think that's a big advantage and something that makes him much more worthy of consideration than the Skorpekh. He starts out with much worse weapons than the Skorpekh but the fact he's got access to relics probably tips that back in his favour. He can also fly, which is pretty useful and might make him a better action monkey.
Lokhust destroyers don't really need a lord's support unless you're really spamming them. They already have a strat to reroll all wounds, after all. They'd probably benefit more from having a Chronomancer nearby to give them a 5++.
Mandragola wrote: The Daemon prince has 6 attacks (plus a claw) compared to the Skorpekh's 4.
Skorpekh Lords kill more Intercessors than plague spewer DPs do on average in melee.
I don't like you bringing up wings and claw, the plague spewer isn't terrible and wings are not mandatory. The sword and spewer DGDP is very similar to a Skorpekh Lord.
Mandragola wrote: The Daemon prince has 6 attacks (plus a claw) compared to the Skorpekh's 4.
Skorpekh Lords kill more Intercessors than plague spewer DPs do on average in melee.
Are you sure? By my math, the Skorpekh Lord kills 3 and the Daemon Prince kills 4.
Using best weapon in both cases (Harvester for the Lord, Sword for the Prince):
Lord: 7/9 x 35/36 x 1 x 4 = ~3 dead intercessors
Hits on 3s, rerolling 1s; then wounds on 2s, rerolling 1s; Marines get no save; it does 2+ damage (so each successful wound kills a marine); and the lord has 4 attacks.
Daemon Prince: 5/6 x 35/36 x 5/6 x 6
Hits on 2s; wounds on 2s; Marines get a 6+ save; it does 2+ damage (so each successful wound kills a Marine); and the Prince has 6 attacks.
Mandragola wrote: The Daemon prince has 6 attacks (plus a claw) compared to the Skorpekh's 4.
Skorpekh Lords kill more Intercessors than plague spewer DPs do on average in melee.
Have I erred somewhere?
You are right, I forgot the -1 to hit on the Skorpekh Lord. DGDP does not get re-roll hits though.
My math was 4*7/6*7/6*6/5 for the re-roll 1s to hit and to wound and going through the 6+ but I forgot the *4/5 for the -1 to hit from the weapon. The Sautekh Stratagem could improve it, but that's a reach.
I just had my first encounter with grey knights and psychic powers deleting my units. It is really painful when your chronomatron unit of warriors just picks up a handful of models without saves or res protocols. Then when I shoot back they have a strat to give invulnerable saves, combined with a few things goes to a 2++ on a unit I need to focus on. Finally there is a heavy weapons squad with a psychic power to ignore LoS and cover. Are there any tips that a new player like me can use to help?
teamtigerstripe wrote: I just had my first encounter with grey knights and psychic powers deleting my units. It is really painful when your chronomatron unit of warriors just picks up a handful of models without saves or res protocols. Then when I shoot back they have a strat to give invulnerable saves, combined with a few things goes to a 2++ on a unit I need to focus on. Finally there is a heavy weapons squad with a psychic power to ignore LoS and cover. Are there any tips that a new player like me can use to help?
An army list I like taking against GK currently would have both 10 shield Lychguard as well as 6 Skorpekh Destroyers. If you can get your destroyers into CC (being the ones to charge) they can actually delete some terminators very effectively. Lychguard can also do the same and they're very sticky. I take a chronomancer with the skorpekhs for the 5++ and re-roll to charge to give them a much better chance.
Unfortunately, the "Astral Aim" psychic power is SUPER deadly and there's very little you can do to combat it except have some extra fast units get to them first. If you take wraiths to tie up a terminator squad for a turn while you get your other units in range, that can work too. I've also tried a LD list against them which worked fairly well, but I think I won that mostly on misplays from my opponent who didn't clear out my MSU immortal squads that were performing actions and holding objectives which gave me a lot of flexibility. Regardless, GK termies are scary and the best counter is either being really far away from them, MW spam, or getting to charge them first (and having invuln saves).
The correct answer is Scarabs. Let them smite the Scarabs then kill them with anything with decent AP, Grey Knights are not very durable for their cost. Check your opponents rules on the 2++ save trick, they can do it but only in very specific circumstances on the right unit.
So I've been a long time (6-7 years) reader, but never posted on Dakka before. I've been collecting and playing Necrons for about 15 years now, but don't have a huge amount of experience playing the game. I really average about 2-3 games a year, and the ever-changing Warhammer editions keep my head spinning. That said, I've been reading this entire Tactic Thread and am up to pg. 30. Its slow going, but there's a ton of useful information.
My friends and I are planning a Crusade set of games over the July 4th weekend and I'm looking for some input to a 50 PL list. My friends will claim they're not competitive, but let's be honest...we all are. So I'm looking to build a solid army but not be a spammy/WAAC list either. Since its Crusade, I think going semi-fluff would be appropriate. My biggest hang-up is selecting a Dynasty. I'm circling through Mephrit, Novokh, or a custom one with a combination of either Relentlessly Expansionist and Rad-Wreathed or Eternal Conquers. Right now I'm gathering that realistically, I would do fine with any of those options, though the list I'm working with is Novokh.
Since we're playing PL 50, the list is around 1000 points, and I variety of models to choose from, but not always huge numbers of those models. The list is being built as a Patrol Detachment and currently includes:
20 Gauss Reaper Warriors
6 Wraiths with claws/particle casters
6 Tomb Blades with shieldvanes, nebuloscopes and gauss blasters
After that, there's about 15-20 PL to play with that I'm not sold on anything else. I've thought about adding:
1 Doomstalker
1 Doom Scythe
5 Lychguard
1 Canoptek Tomb Stalker
I have other units too, but these are the stand-outs that I'm toying with.
I've gone back and forth with HQ units too tossing around an Overlord, Chronomancer, or Royal Warden. Since its Crusade, I can outfit those as need be based on my Requisition Points, etc.
The armies the rest of my friends playing in the Crusade include: Custodes, Salamanders, Dark Angles, Tyranids, and Harlequins. I'll be facing a lot of 3+ armor saves and a little bit of horde; the space clowns will be all over the place and I have no idea how to crack the Custodes. Let me know if you have any questions about my picks.
Any of your collective experience is appreciated, and as always, thank you in advance!
So I've been a long time (6-7 years) reader, but never posted on Dakka before. I've been collecting and playing Necrons for about 15 years now, but don't have a huge amount of experience playing the game. I really average about 2-3 games a year, and the ever-changing Warhammer editions keep my head spinning. That said, I've been reading this entire Tactic Thread and am up to pg. 30. Its slow going, but there's a ton of useful information.
My friends and I are planning a Crusade set of games over the July 4th weekend and I'm looking for some input to a 50 PL list. My friends will claim they're not competitive, but let's be honest...we all are. So I'm looking to build a solid army but not be a spammy/WAAC list either. Since its Crusade, I think going semi-fluff would be appropriate. My biggest hang-up is selecting a Dynasty. I'm circling through Mephrit, Novokh, or a custom one with a combination of either Relentlessly Expansionist and Rad-Wreathed or Eternal Conquers. Right now I'm gathering that realistically, I would do fine with any of those options, though the list I'm working with is Novokh.
Since we're playing PL 50, the list is around 1000 points, and I variety of models to choose from, but not always huge numbers of those models. The list is being built as a Patrol Detachment and currently includes:
20 Gauss Reaper Warriors
6 Wraiths with claws/particle casters
6 Tomb Blades with shieldvanes, nebuloscopes and gauss blasters
After that, there's about 15-20 PL to play with that I'm not sold on anything else. I've thought about adding:
1 Doomstalker
1 Doom Scythe
5 Lychguard
1 Canoptek Tomb Stalker
I have other units too, but these are the stand-outs that I'm toying with.
I've gone back and forth with HQ units too tossing around an Overlord, Chronomancer, or Royal Warden. Since its Crusade, I can outfit those as need be based on my Requisition Points, etc.
The armies the rest of my friends playing in the Crusade include: Custodes, Salamanders, Dark Angles, Tyranids, and Harlequins. I'll be facing a lot of 3+ armor saves and a little bit of horde; the space clowns will be all over the place and I have no idea how to crack the Custodes. Let me know if you have any questions about my picks.
Any of your collective experience is appreciated, and as always, thank you in advance!
~Maestroode
If you've got large blobs of warriors, you can't really go wrong with a Chronomancer (or multiple) since they benefit massively from the 5++. People generally agree that Lychguard w/ shields are legit and synergize decently well w/ warrior heavy lists. Again, people will tell you doomstalkers are underwhelming unless you take a technomancer to buff their hit rolls by +1 so there's some tax there to make them feel strong. I don't usually play 1k games so I honestly don't know what will feel good/bad otherwise but I can tell you that buffing warriors and keeping making each unit/model as hard to kill as possible is your optimal strategy.
What are some of the tools and strategies against deathguard, no Mortarion? Particularly at 1k points, but generally as well is helpful. I seem to see them everywhere and they just seem tough as hell.
teamtigerstripe wrote: What are some of the tools and strategies against deathguard, no Mortarion? Particularly at 1k points, but generally as well is helpful. I seem to see them everywhere and they just seem tough as hell.
Warriors with gauss reapers, Nightbringer, Doomsday Arks and Scarabs.
I think a Chronomancer with the Veil of Darkness is an obvious pick to go with that Warrior blob.
Then you probably want some kind of Noble to be your Warlord. An Overlord seems appropriate if you're being fluffy, and you want someone a bit fancy to put the Crusade upgrades on, consider giving him the Voidreaper relic, or just a Voidscythe.
If you go Mephrit, your Warriors benefit a lot form the +3 inch range, and if you do take an overlord, their unique Warlord trait makes him quite potent in combat.
Scarabs are very important to any list also.
I've been struggling with the whole "paralysis through analysis" syndrome where I'm trying to account for EVERYTHING without really having a lot of 9th ed. games under my belt.
I'm leveling in on the warriors and chronomancer along with 5 lychguard and a royal warden. Relics and wargear is yet to be determined, but I like the veil for sure...throwbacks to the 3rd edition codex! I could drop the tomb blades for some scarabs instead, but then I really have one shooting unit of the warriors. But I agree, scarabs are quite an important component to the list synergy. I'm also trying to fit everything into a Patrol Detachment, so keeping to 2 units of each and getting the CP back. That said, I've thought of doing an Outrider to get all 3 fast attack; at 50PL though, something would have to give elsewhere.
Right now I'm sitting on Novokh for the dynasty; giving them a boost where they're weak instead of pushing a strength further. Thoughts on this? I'm also really eyeing the custom dynasty for ObSec and 6" Move. What I'm gathering is that between these three, you really can't go wrong...does that sound fair?
I know most people use large 20x Warrior squads as the backbone of their army lists. Does anyone have much experience using 20x Flayed Ones squads....
I was looking at a list of two 20x Flayed Ones squads. The rest of the army will consist of three 10x Warriors squads, loads of scarabs, Nightbringer, other choppy filler, and the usual HQ/relics.
or should I just stick to the shooty warriors? thanks for the feedback
I'm not sure what the Flayed One blobs would do that the reaper warriors don't do better; I suspect there might be merit in 5x flayed one squads to drop in for secondary scoring but I haven't had the opportunity to test that yet.
jpjupiter wrote: I know most people use large 20x Warrior squads as the backbone of their army lists. Does anyone have much experience using 20x Flayed Ones squads....
I was looking at a list of two 20x Flayed Ones squads. The rest of the army will consist of three 10x Warriors squads, loads of scarabs, Nightbringer, other choppy filler, and the usual HQ/relics.
or should I just stick to the shooty warriors? thanks for the feedback
I made 3 battle reports on the subject. I came away really liking Flayed Ones, they are a tonne more pts-efficient than in 8th. Mono Novokh is unfortunately mandatory if you want to make them work and that constricts the rest of your list more than the 6" move + ObSec custom dynasty that I have yet to test with Warrior spam. 60 Warriors is the most I ever ran and I ran them alongside the Flayed Ones, I did not feel like the Warriors were outshining the Flayed Ones. Part of that is that Flayed Ones have two of our best Stratagems.
They are brutally expensive IRL though, it'll be a long while before I can afford to get a horde of them. There is also a 20% chance of failing 3 8+ charge rolls, so it's riskier than Warriors, it can pay off though.
I've ran 10x Flayed Ones with Novokh; with their deep strike like entrance and +1" on charge; they drop in, charge/mulch and then score. Not quite as durable as warriors but I like the flexibility and for a smaller and initially more mobile unit I think they are a solid choice.
Arachnofiend wrote: I'm not sure what the Flayed One blobs would do that the reaper warriors don't do better; I suspect there might be merit in 5x flayed one squads to drop in for secondary scoring but I haven't had the opportunity to test that yet.
Access to fight twice and -1 to hit. 20x flayed one blobs are absolutely brilliant. They'll do the same job as warriors for holding midfield objectives but will blend anything they touch with the slight drawback of having less effective RP
I made 3 battle reports on the subject. I came away really liking Flayed Ones ...They are brutally expensive IRL though...
I'm glad they're playable now, I also really like the idea of a Novokh list with one big blob of them to threaten charges or hold the midfield. Maybe three units of 5 could also be useful as flexible and cheap objective holders that can either just perform actions out of the way, deepstrike onto lightly defended backfields, or tie things up midfield.
Also, unless something changed and conversions aren't allowed anymore they're just as cheap as warriors and IMO are one of the easiest conversions imaginable. Just snip off a warrior's hands, glue some blades on instead (like the copious bayonets we get attached to our warrior and immortal weapons) and then drape several thin scraps of green stuff all over the model to paint up as fleshy bits. Easy, cheap, and still would look good.
How do 20 flayed ones compare to 10 Lychguard? It seems to me the Lychguard are an awful lot tougher and have quite a few other advantages. Deep strike is the obvious benefit flayed ones bring of course. Is there much else?
Also, unless something changed and conversions aren't allowed anymore they're just as cheap as warriors and IMO are one of the easiest conversions imaginable. Just snip off a warrior's hands, glue some blades on instead (like the copious bayonets we get attached to our warrior and immortal weapons) and then drape several thin scraps of green stuff all over the model to paint up as fleshy bits. Easy, cheap, and still would look good.
I made about 10 of them for a Kill Team and that's what I did. You can re-pose the legs and arms from the original (2003 or 2004) kit to make them running and lurking about; slap some BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD technical paint on and away you go. Yeah, I'll second that it's a pretty cost effective way to build them.
Arachnofiend wrote: I'm not sure what the Flayed One blobs would do that the reaper warriors don't do better; I suspect there might be merit in 5x flayed one squads to drop in for secondary scoring but I haven't had the opportunity to test that yet.
Access to fight twice and -1 to hit. 20x flayed one blobs are absolutely brilliant. They'll do the same job as warriors for holding midfield objectives but will blend anything they touch with the slight drawback of having less effective RP
I'll admit I forgot about the -1 to hit stratagem, that does sound quite appealing. Might have to give them a go myself, then.
Mandragola wrote: How do 20 flayed ones compare to 10 Lychguard? It seems to me the Lychguard are an awful lot tougher and have quite a few other advantages. Deep strike is the obvious benefit flayed ones bring of course. Is there much else?
260 pts vs 280 pts.
20x1W T4 4+ vs 10x2W T5 2+ 4++. Note that RP is better on 1W models.
2,5x hits vs 1x hits. Flayed Ones are much better against hordes.
Multiply x by 1 and 2,2 against Intercessors. Flayed Ones are better against Intercessors. Flayed Ones also benefit more from +1 S and +1 AP from Novokh and the right Command Protocol.
Lychguard's only advantage is durability, which is somewhere between better (against plasma) to enormously better (against S4 AP-) and prolonged combats against Terminators where the Novokh AP wears off. Lychguard are good in both the custom dynasty everyone takes and Novokh and they're not even bad in Mephrit if you just need a durable objective-holder/counter-charge unit, IMO you will have a bad time playing Flayed Ones outside Novokh.
Flayed Ones are disturbingly expensive. One of the reasons im glad i dont play tournaments so i dont have to worry about that stupid 3D printing rule. I just slapped some new finger-blade arms to warriors and stretched greenstuff over them for skin (havnt finished that yet since my urge to paint is extremely low atm). Its shocking how many warriors you end up with those indom and starter boxes Marines are pawning off for cheap lol
Gesundheit wrote: I Played a small 16 Player tournament at my local Store...
You forgot to say how you did and how you felt about your list, what changes you would have made in hindsight. Easy and tough matchups and training up to the event.
Gesundheit wrote: Yeah I edited this ***** text 6 times and it does not take the changes. Half the text ist cut of and I don’t know why!
Just create a new post. I'm especially curious if you felt Nanoscarab Casket was better than Veil of Darkness would have been. Also were you happy with Butchers? Did you outflank or why did you feel the +1 to charge was better than the additional damage you can do with Rad-wreathed or the ability to steal or hold objectives with conquerors. Too many Skorpekhs or just enough? Did blast come up against them? Did you try to hide two units to make the most of the -1 to wound Stratagem? How was terrain at the tournament and in your training environment?
Gesundheit wrote: Yeah I edited this ***** text 6 times and it does not take the changes. Half the text ist cut of and I don’t know why!
Just create a new post. I'm especially curious if you felt Nanoscarab Casket was better than Veil of Darkness would have been. Also were you happy with Butchers? Did you outflank or why did you feel the +1 to charge was better than the additional damage you can do with Rad-wreathed or the ability to steal or hold objectives with conquerors. Too many Skorpekhs or just enough? Did blast come up against them? Did you try to hide two units to make the most of the -1 to wound Stratagem? How was terrain at the tournament and in your training environment?
In fact, we are rather curious how the tourney went.
Arachnofiend wrote: I'm not sure what the Flayed One blobs would do that the reaper warriors don't do better; I suspect there might be merit in 5x flayed one squads to drop in for secondary scoring but I haven't had the opportunity to test that yet.
Access to fight twice and -1 to hit. 20x flayed one blobs are absolutely brilliant. They'll do the same job as warriors for holding midfield objectives but will blend anything they touch with the slight drawback of having less effective RP
I'll admit I forgot about the -1 to hit stratagem, that does sound quite appealing. Might have to give them a go myself, then.
Try them with Rad Wreathed, it is how I run them and it can be extremely brutal. It brings just about everything you would throw them against down a S/T breakpoint
My Text is totally gone. I just write it in short words.
1. Won against Tau first turn charge for me made the game onesided.
2. Won against Adeptus Custodes was the closest game and I won by 2 or 3 points
3. Won against Eldar he made mistake turn 1 wich snowballed me to the end
4. Lost against DG by like 7 Points. I played it bad! It was only my fault I lost this! I was to scared to just fight his poxwalker and I shouldn’t have shoot into the PBC!!!
And again half the Text gone! **** this I wait till I arrive at home and write it again!
I am really sorry guys!
Chronomancer [4 PL, 80pts]: Aeonstave, Chronotendrils, Relic: Gauntlet of the Conflagrator, Warlord, Warlord Trait (Codex 4): Thrall of the Silent King
Chronomancer [4 PL, 80pts]: Aeonstave, Chronotendrils, Relic: Gauntlet of the Conflagrator, Warlord, Warlord Trait (Codex 4): Thrall of the Silent King
Solid concept. I'd probably swap the doomstalker for a couple spiders with prisms, upgrade the Chronomancer's weapon, and switch to Relentless/Obsec since nothing would have it otherwise.
As a side note, the chosen warlord trait doesn't do anything for a chronomancer since his ability isn't an aura, it's a 'choose 1 unit within x range' which isn't buffed by thrall. And since you don't get command protocols that's not relevant either (although it too would be unaffected by thrall from my understanding). I'd probably go either 'Immortal Pride' for the FNP vs MWs or 'Honorable Combatant' for extra attacks against characters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's the version I think I'd run.
I havent tried 3x9 scarabs since the change to no prisoners, but in theory, if they gain more VP than they give away i would go for it. Your opponent can get 10VP from them, but they can easily score 20 or even more VP when they camp on markers as eternal conquerors.
who cares about No prisoners?
Necrons gave that maxed out before the changes anyway. You cannot avoid making that secondary enticing for your opponent, dont hamstring your list because you wanted to block the extra 2-3 points they'd get from maxing it out as opposed to nearly maxing it out.
another try with a feedback.
I played against SM with the following list:
Spoiler:
Patrol Detachment 0CP (Necrons)
Selections: Circumstance of Awakening: Relentlessly Expansionist, Dynastic Tradition: Eternal Conquerors,
HQ Chronomancer
Selections: Aeonstave, Dynastic Heirlooms, Relic: Veil of Darkness
Overlord
Selections: Relic: Orb of Eternity, Resurrection Orb, Warlord, Warlord Trait (Codex 4): Thrall of the Silent King, Warscythe
Troops
Necron Warriors
20x Necron Warrior (Gauss Flayer)
Selections: 20x Gauss Flayer
Elites
C'tan Shard of the Void Dragon
Selections: Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars
Skorpekh Destroyers
2x Skorpekh Destroyer (Reap-Blade)
Selections: 2x Hyperphase Reap-Blade
4x Skorpekh Destroyer (Thresher)
Selections: 4x Hyperphase Threshers
Patrol Detachment -2CP (Necrons)
Selections: Circumstance of Awakening: Relentlessly Expansionist, Dynastic Tradition: Eternal Conquerors,
HQ Skorpekh Lord
Troops
Necron Warriors
20x Necron Warrior (Gauss Flayer)
Selections: 20x Gauss Flayer
Elites
C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer
Selections: Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor
Skorpekh Destroyers
2x Skorpekh Destroyer (Reap-Blade)
Selections: 2x Hyperphase Reap-Blade
4x Skorpekh Destroyer (Thresher)
Selections: 4x Hyperphase Threshers
It went ok. I won by 23 Points. The VD is much to expensive for the thinks he does. I would cut him and buy more Skorpekh and another Chronomancer.
And again the best units where my Skorpekh. They always feel like they overperform. Test them guys! They are awesome. :-)
Were you missing the +1 to charge? Happy with Nightbringer? Do you think your list would be better with 3x5 vs 2x6+3 Skorpekhs? Have you tried Wraiths?
Well, yeah sometimes I missed the +1 to charge, but I think if you just got 2 x 20 Warrior you need the OS! The Nightbringer is a beast and totally worth his points! He takes a lot of attention and just won’t die like all c‘tan. Besides that he is pretty killy! Yeah I already thought about the 3x5 but I would miss the second great weapon I think.
I did not tried it yet with the wrath, but the test will follow soon.
Even witht he No Prisoners change I think Scarabs are fine when taken as units of 4-5 bases for securing objectives and tying down enemy units. Maxing out on them is now a lot worse, I think, because of how easily they give up VPs and how many they give up. There's also a certain threshold above which it's worth your opponent concentrating on them and I find units of 4-5 bases fall below that threshold for hte most part.
Slipspace wrote: Even witht he No Prisoners change I think Scarabs are fine when taken as units of 4-5 bases for securing objectives and tying down enemy units. Maxing out on them is now a lot worse, I think, because of how easily they give up VPs and how many they give up. There's also a certain threshold above which it's worth your opponent concentrating on them and I find units of 4-5 bases fall below that threshold for hte most part.
another try with a feedback.
I played against SM with the following list:
Spoiler:
Patrol Detachment 0CP (Necrons)
Selections: Circumstance of Awakening: Relentlessly Expansionist, Dynastic Tradition: Eternal Conquerors,
HQ Chronomancer
Selections: Aeonstave, Dynastic Heirlooms, Relic: Veil of Darkness
Overlord
Selections: Relic: Orb of Eternity, Resurrection Orb, Warlord, Warlord Trait (Codex 4): Thrall of the Silent King, Warscythe
Troops
Necron Warriors
20x Necron Warrior (Gauss Flayer)
Selections: 20x Gauss Flayer
Elites
C'tan Shard of the Void Dragon
Selections: Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars
Skorpekh Destroyers
2x Skorpekh Destroyer (Reap-Blade)
Selections: 2x Hyperphase Reap-Blade
4x Skorpekh Destroyer (Thresher)
Selections: 4x Hyperphase Threshers
Patrol Detachment -2CP (Necrons)
Selections: Circumstance of Awakening: Relentlessly Expansionist, Dynastic Tradition: Eternal Conquerors,
HQ Skorpekh Lord
Troops
Necron Warriors
20x Necron Warrior (Gauss Flayer)
Selections: 20x Gauss Flayer
Elites
C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer
Selections: Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor
Skorpekh Destroyers
2x Skorpekh Destroyer (Reap-Blade)
Selections: 2x Hyperphase Reap-Blade
4x Skorpekh Destroyer (Thresher)
Selections: 4x Hyperphase Threshers
It went ok. I won by 23 Points. The VD is much to expensive for the thinks he does. I would cut him and buy more Skorpekh and another Chronomancer.
And again the best units where my Skorpekh. They always feel like they overperform. Test them guys! They are awesome. :-)
Void dragon needs vehicles to eat. Marine vehicles suck. There you go. THe healing ability can be soul crushing though. Skprpekhs are great vs marines and are substantially worse against most other factions.
Void dragon needs vehicles to eat. Marine vehicles suck. There you go. THe healing ability can be soul crushing though. Skprpekhs are great vs marines and are substantially worse against most other factions.
I even had great success with the Skorpekh‘s against other factions! They need to be answered, are pretty tanky with a chronomancer in the back, are fast enough to be in your face turn 2 latest and deal tons of damage!
Yeah the problem with the VD is, that if the enemy got less then 3 vehicles he got nothing to do and even then he won’t kill them all, cause he is to slow to hunt vehicles. The worst thing is that 10 grots bind him 2 rounds at least….. that sucks realy hard!
Void dragon needs vehicles to eat. Marine vehicles suck. There you go. THe healing ability can be soul crushing though. Skprpekhs are great vs marines and are substantially worse against most other factions.
I even had great success with the Skorpekh‘s against other factions! They need to be answered, are pretty tanky with a chronomancer in the back, are fast enough to be in your face turn 2 latest and deal tons of damage!
Yeah the problem with the VD is, that if the enemy got less then 3 vehicles he got nothing to do and even then he won’t kill them all, cause he is to slow to hunt vehicles. The worst thing is that 10 grots bind him 2 rounds at least….. that sucks realy hard!
They actually don't seem that tanky in my experience. They die very easily to high AP weapons. Since such weapons are wasted on QS targets and warriors, skorpekhs catch them all! Lances in particular are bad bad news. Their damage isn't impressive vs DG and they physically can't assault the actual drukhari because necrons can't destroy the boats at range. I find wraiths better in almost every circumstance.
Oh you don't let grots touch your VD. Keep VD surrounded by scarabs at all times to prevent charges and psychic attacks.
I am on 6-game winning streak, the longest I have had in 9th after 43 2k games, my previous record was just 4. Nothing amazing about a 6-game win-streak, what is amazing is the units I used. 3 games won with a triple Canoptek Reanimator list and 3 games won with triple Obelisk, units that I thought were among the worst.
Reanimators are too expensive, you're very rarely going to be making 36 Reanimation Protocol rolls units buffed by a Reanimator (which would pay back the 6 Warriors you could have had instead of the Reanimator), resurrection orbs are pretty much the only hope of getting up to that number. The offense and defense of the Reanimator is borderline useless because when it dies its buff is gone so you have to keep it safe, if you do go on the offense with it then it dies for almost nothing. All that said, 80 pts isn't THAT much and it is fun to have borderline immortal Warriors if your opponent's list isn't built to take out a brick of Warriors in one shot.
Obelisks shoot a surprisingly large amount and 2 damage is really good against some things, they are still overcosted because there are some things that counter them really hard Deathwing Terminators, Death Guard, Dreadnoughts, melta, dark lances, laser chickens, but if they don't get countered and you get to sit still and shoot with them then they are not at all bad.
C'tan Shard of the Void Dragon [18 PL, 350pts]: Canoptek Tail Blades, Power of the C'tan: Time's Arrow, Power of the C'tan: Voltaic Storm, Spear of the Void Dragon
I would encourage people to test these units out if you haven't already given them a chance, trying out new units has been massively fun for me and my expectations have been exceeded with these units, if only because my expectations were really low. If you have already tested them out now that the codex has been out for a good while, what have your experiences been? I could see myself taking a Reanimator regularly, without Mephrit I can't see myself taking an Obelisk and running 3 LOW is way too much and will be terrible on "competitive" terrain.
What armies did you play against?
Assuming not playing againsts Sisters, DEldar, or Admech.
I looks like even going up against a dred list or anything with vehicles both lists will fold to.
Pyrothem wrote: What armies did you play against?
Assuming not playing againsts Sisters, DEldar, or Admech.
I looks like even going up against a dred list or anything with vehicles both lists will fold to.
Against End of the Naogeddon Colony Custodes brought 4 Dreadnoughts, SM brought 2 Leviathan Dreadnoughts, Orks brought 2 Battle Wagons and 2 Trukks. Enough gauss reaper shots will take down a Dreadnought with Stratagems, even a T8 one, flayers can help take down T7 Dreadnoughts and the Void Dragon shard was very good at taking out vehicles.
Against Solar Sepulchre CE brought 2 Wave Serpents (basically the same as a Dreadnought) and 2 other vehicles, the Doom Scythes took out the Serpents no problem allowing the Obelisks to shine against the remaining vehicles without being reduced from 2 damage to 1 damage. Space Wolves only brought a single character Dreadnought and a Rhino. Necrons brought the Nightbringer, a Doomscythe and a Doomsday Ark.
Solar Sepulchre would be okay into Sisters assuming you get to overwatch against Repentia and they don't charge from behind a wall, terrible into DE and AdMech, especially on GW's tournament terrain. End of the Naogeddon Colony is pretty close to the standard Warriors spam list, the Reanimators would be okay into Sisters, good into DE and terrible into AdMech.
Umbros wrote: Any thoughts on the list below? (it is the standard Eternal Expansionists)
Spoiler:
Necrons Battalion Detachment ( 3CP - 2000PT )
HQ WARLORD: Catacomb Command Barge (185) Tesla cannon, Resurrection orb
TRAITS: Immortal Pride
RELICS: Voltaic Staff
STRATAGEMS: Dynastic Heirlooms
Plasmancer (70)
RELICS: Veil of Darkness
Technomancer (80) Canoptek cloak
TROOPS
Immortals (170)
10x Immortals
Necron Warriors (260)
20x Necron Warrior
Necron Warriors (260)
20x Necron Warrior
Necron Warriors (195)
15x Necron Warrior
ELITES
C’tan Shard of the Void Dragon (350)
POWERS: C'tan Shard of the Void Dragon - Voltaic Storm, Sky of Falling Stars
FAST ATTACK
Canoptek Scarab Swarms (120)
8x Scarab Swarm
Canoptek Scarab Swarms (135)
9x Scarab Swarm
Canoptek Wraiths (175)
5x Canoptek Wraiths
STRATAGEMS
Dynastic Heirlooms (1CP)
Total Command Points: 4/15
Reinforcement Points: 0
Total Points: 2000/200
Remember to put it in spoilers. Remove 5 Immortals and 1 Plasmancer, add 1 Scarab Swarm, 1 Chronomancer and 5 Warriors. Consider grabbing whip coils on one or two Wraiths, remove the less useful weapon depending on the opponent as models in the unit are destroyed. I know Sky of Falling Stars has hype behind it but you could end up in a match where neither Voltaic Storm or Sky of Falling Stars is great. Antimatter Meteor is never going to let you down and lets you focus down a vehicle very quickly if it is the closest enemy unit.
I like the reanimator list. I'd like to do something like the following. Probably end up switching immovable phalanx for eternal conquerors. What do y'all think? Thinking of dropping some combination of some scarbs and Hexmark to add a ghost ark to help reanimate more warriors, and be a distraction for the reanimators. I like the idea of the revenge of the doomstalker strat though. Maybe a Squeeze in hypermaterial ablator to help with immovable phalanx for the frontline unit; to give warriors a 2+ save for more than the turn I use eternal guardian. ( I would enjoy both being able to also fire Overwatch on 5+ for that turn and have a 2+)
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Necronwarrior12 wrote: I like the reanimator list. I'd like to do something like the following. Probably end up switching immovable phalanx for eternal conquerors. What do y'all think? Thinking of dropping some combination of some scarbs and Hexmark to add a ghost ark to help reanimate more warriors, and be a distraction for the reanimators. I like the idea of the revenge of the doomstalker strat though. Maybe a Squeeze in hypermaterial ablator to help with immovable phalanx for the frontline unit; to give warriors a 2+ save for more than the turn I use eternal guardian. ( I would enjoy both being able to also fire Overwatch on 5+ for that turn and have a 2+)
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What relic is supposed to go on the second HQ? Gauntlet of the Conflagrator is popular on Hexmark Destroyers, you should consider that and maybe move the Voltaic Staff onto the second HQ and leave the Technomancer bare, if everything goes well he might never get in range.
I think a Chronomancer will serve you better than the second Reanimator.
[spoiler]What relic is supposed to go on the second HQ? Gauntlet of the Conflagrator is popular on Hexmark Destroyers, you should consider that and maybe move the Voltaic Staff onto the second HQ and leave the Technomancer bare, if everything goes well he might never get in range.
I think a Chronomancer will serve you better than the second Reanimator.
I really like the idea of the gauntlet on Hexmark(really would like to try this). I mainly wanted veil on one Lord and a Voltaic staff on someone. I don't care about immortal pride at all. Thought thrall f the silent would be important on cryptech for aura and control node. Maybe 3 relic and only one warlord trait? I feel like a chronomancer is really only beneficial to the scarabs. I'm going for armour saves for warriors. I don't have spiders to help keep them going
A single unit of 3x LHDs
or
3x Units of single LHDs
Which is better?
Been getting feedback elsewhere that a single unit of 3 is harder to hide and once exposed easier to be destroyed.
Where as 3 single LHDs are easier to hide and once exposed destroying all three is tougher as the enemy will either over or under commit fire.
3 singles. You can commit one shot at a time, minimizing chance of overcommitment. Only reason not to is having a Cryptek that can resurrect one or lack of HS choices. RP is never going to happen. It's also better for doing actions.
A single unit of 3x LHDs
or
3x Units of single LHDs
Which is better?
Been getting feedback elsewhere that a single unit of 3 is harder to hide and once exposed easier to be destroyed.
Where as 3 single LHDs are easier to hide and once exposed destroying all three is tougher as the enemy will either over or under commit fire.
There are two niche cases to be made for 1x3.
You can back them up with a phylactrine hive technomancer, use the 20 point wargear to rez your 60 point model (assuming they aren't wiped out).
Otherwise, could can technically benefit a 1x3 with a chronomancer chronometron if you're not using warrior or scarab blobs in your army, which considering how deadly some of the game is getting, is a possibility.
In an upcoming 1k tournament, I am thinking of cheesing a bit. Not that if I know it Will be any good but I kind of wanna bring them anyway.
The Silent King or a C'tan that is.
Whats your guys opinion about those in a 1k point army?
I'm messing around a bit on Battlescribe, but just cant get a list that feels comfortable enough to play. I mostly do 2k lists, and 1k is such a restriction.
Hiddius wrote: In an upcoming 1k tournament, I am thinking of cheesing a bit. Not that if I know it Will be any good but I kind of wanna bring them anyway.
The Silent King or a C'tan that is.
Whats your guys opinion about those in a 1k point army?
I'm messing around a bit on Battlescribe, but just cant get a list that feels comfortable enough to play. I mostly do 2k lists, and 1k is such a restriction.
Thoughts?
Especially in smaller games the Lanchester square law applied in WW2 comes in.
E.g. in view of tanks, doubling the number of tanks required to 4-fold the number of antitank weapons.
In your case, a large monster or vehicle like TSK will be hard to remove at the 1000 pt level.
Thats an interesting way to see it. I Think the one thing that troubles me the most is VP. Currently the list is TSK, 20 warriors with reapers and a chronomancer with veil. A technomancer to support TSK/Warriors is interesting, and I am thinking of going with two single LHD and Szarekhan or Mephrit. Szharekhan really helps the chronos Lance, and the single unit LHD. But Thats about it atm. 1k is such a hassle..
I am always keen to know about people trying out units like the Monolith which many Necron players have written off as uncompetitive.
