The superior artisans custom trait will really help your few single shot options, combine with relentlessly expansionist for positioning and you should have some decent efficiency.
Hiddius wrote: Thats an interesting way to see it. I Think the one thing that troubles me the most is VP. Currently the list is TSK, 20 warriors with reapers and a chronomancer with veil. A technomancer to support TSK/Warriors is interesting, and I am thinking of going with two single LHD and Szarekhan or Mephrit. Szharekhan really helps the chronos Lance, and the single unit LHD. But Thats about it atm. 1k is such a hassle..
This list is not bad.
TSK as center-piece model is very hard to shift at the 1000 pt level thanks to the Lanchester square law.
His matchups:
1. Mechanicus W
2. Adeptus Sororitas W
3. Drukhari W
4. Custodes W
5. Drukhari L
6. Adeptus Sororitas W
7. White scars W
8. Sean Naydens mixed eldar L
I like the list a lot, other than I am not into immortals (modelling wise not ruleswise...they are superior in the current meta I think). Plays the primary well, has a resonable To the Last option. Seems like this something like this is about the best chance we have until admech gets rebalanced.
I think TSK might be hard to earn his points back at 1k; I really tried to make him work at 2k and the number of space marine multi meltas was a PITA and to benefit from his 450 points, you need to build around him.
A C'Tan, however, I think is a strong option at 1k and will be hard to deal with (eg a bit of cheese) but with some of the shenanigans available to the top tier armies right now, I think it would be okay.
Curious about that fully melee kitted Lokhust Lord and how it was used. Seems like a lot of investment between the third relic and the second warlord trait so it must have been for something.
Arachnofiend wrote: Curious about that fully melee kitted Lokhust Lord and how it was used. Seems like a lot of investment between the third relic and the second warlord trait so it must have been for something.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: 9 immortals and 9 lychguards per unit? Seems like an odd number. Is it to save points?
Probably cuz of Blast.
Personally more curious about what weapons on the immortals he uses.
About TSK not making his points back, a valid argument. But the game is about Victor points, and playing the objective is Always what I aim for. To be honest, the main reason I want to bring TSK is because I need to paint him up.
I think bringing a C'tan is actually worse in 1k lists, his plot armor doesnt translate well to lower point games. It still just takes a few shots to bring them down, and I'd lie if I told you that I know how to properly play a C'tan ett.
I think to your point about TSK, at 1k he's a huge model that is almost half your army, not all that fast and only buffing the units near him. I totally support the motivation to paint him, I really enjoyed doing so and an escalation league was part of that motivation.
C'Tans can be tricky, I like running Void Dragon as I tend to need more anti tank and there are not that many psykers at my local club. I wish they were fast or had an advance/charge option, but with the powers and smaller profile I find him a good fit.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: 9 immortals and 9 lychguards per unit? Seems like an odd number. Is it to save points?
Probably cuz of Blast.
Personally more curious about what weapons on the immortals he uses.
Sorry was a little zealous cleaning up the battlescribe noise. Immortals all had Gauss.
I suspect the 9 mans were for points. The list is pretty lean.
Curious about that fully melee kitted Lokhust Lord and how it was used. Seems like a lot of investment between the third relic and the second warlord trait so it must have been for something.
I agree with Cynista, gives you a character killer that can hide amongst the durable bodies but is easier to position and use then a CCB. Drukari and similar mostly, ignoring FNP can help there with a 3 damage weapon with rerolls to hit and wound, something like 6.8 avg wounds against T3 4++. That is in addition to having a clutch res orb and granting rerolls to wound to plasmacyted skorpekhs (which are just mulchers, done crazy things with all that buffage).
If the Lokhust Lord had become 2+ to hit and kept 10" movement then I love the idea of it as a character hunter. As it is I think it's overpriced by 20 points but can obviously still do work
That's a very interesting list. It feels like an incentive to finish my Lokhust lord conversion. I think he does make sense with the voidreaper and some Skorpekhs to hide with/buff. I'm surprised there's no Chronomancer for them though.
Well. With the nerfs to Admech via the FAQ today...
Loss of 'core' for Balastarii, and Dragoons
Lucius dogma only applies if the unit isn't in cover,
Acquision at any cost is 1/game requiring the unit to be wholly within 6 of an objective.
An enriched rounds going to 2cp if the unit is 11+ models, and only auto wounding on 5s
Are warrior bricks and vehicles back to being usable?
iGuy91 wrote: Well. With the nerfs to Admech via the FAQ today...
Loss of 'core' for Balastarii, and Dragoons
Lucius dogma only applies if the unit isn't in cover,
Acquision at any cost is 1/game requiring the unit to be wholly within 6 of an objective.
An enriched rounds going to 2cp if the unit is 11+ models, and only auto wounding on 5s
Are warrior bricks and vehicles back to being usable?
Rangers are still going to one-shot Warriors unless their Stratagem has been nerfed as well. I don't think Necron vehicles were too worried about Balastarii and losing core isn't the end of the world for them anyway, I'd think Balastarii counter Destroyers more than Doomsday Arks. At least I can stop refusing AdMech games knowing they've gotten the first round of nerfs, I am just shaking my head at how predictable this was, playtesters knew. Bombers are still really good and that's bad news for C'tan and anything that cannot fly can get bogged down by a few cavalry units.
Ranger strat was nerfed, its Heavy 2 -> Heavy 3 now.
So only 50% more shots and doesnt negate the movement penalty issue. It does work at full range now though so theres that.
Da-Rock wrote: How do you guys draw the line between Tournament Play - Competitive Play and Casual Play when it comes to List and Unit advice?
I don't think there is any difference between Tournament Play and Competitive Play. If you have a 9/10 list then I will want to make recommendations to make it 10/10, if you make a 2/10 list then I'll want to make recommendations to take it to a 5/10 list, because taking it to a 10/10 list will take it too far away from your list. For competitive play you shouldn't bring a list that is worse than 7/10 and for a casual game I don't think you should bring a list better than 7/10. I often try to make things work, so I go in with a starting challenge of making Nihilakh or triple Monolith work, someone telling me that I will never make a 10/10 Nihilakh or triple Monolith list isn't helping and you never know if Nihilakh is somehow the secret 11/10 dynasty or Monoliths unlock their hidden power when you take 3 at once.
If you post a list here looking for advice I assume you want to improve it, if you are already winning 70% of your games in your casual environment and you mainly play against fluffy Astra Militarum and fluffy Iyanden Craftworld Eldar then why even post the list? I recommended people try Obelisks and Canoptek Reanimators in casual games a page or two back, I do think you can learn something from playing in more casual games, while also realising that if you play in a competitive environment there is basically no chance you will have the success I had with those units. The game is pretty awful competitively at the moment with four armies where Necrons have less than 33% chance of winning, I just don't see the fun in that.
So, curious what you guys would think of throwing a Hexmark Destroyer with the Gauntlet relic into lists to help combat the Ad Mech DSing blobs of death. He can intercept them before they delete our Warriors... just a thought.
I'm leaning towards full vehicle with obsec + interplanetary invaders. We have the tankiest vehicles in the game, every wound protected by transhuman + a 4++ either naturally or with 1cp.
I can fit 9 while keeping action monkeys for retrieve octarius.
CCB
3 dday arks
3 tessie arks
2 annihilation barges
Patrol + spearhead
5 gauss immortals, 2x5 flayed ones for retrieve, with a chrono or techno ferrying the immortals with veil
Round it out w 3x4 scarabs for screening and engage on all fronts.
Should be interesting: painting the last models now.
DogHeadGod wrote: I'm leaning towards full vehicle with obsec + interplanetary invaders. We have the tankiest vehicles in the game, every wound protected by transhuman + a 4++ either naturally or with 1cp.
I can fit 9 while keeping action monkeys for retrieve octarius.
CCB
3 dday arks
3 tessie arks
2 annihilation barges
Patrol + spearhead
5 gauss immortals, 2x5 flayed ones for retrieve, with a chrono or techno ferrying the immortals with veil
Round it out w 3x4 scarabs for screening and engage on all fronts.
Should be interesting: painting the last models now.
Definitely an archetype and was basically the best list for Necrons in 8th (sans doom crecents). This type of list has made a few runs in GTs and majors lately. I think hardest thing will be fitting everything in some deployment zones and objective game, since you will often get outnumbered by obsec.
Da-Rock wrote: How do you guys draw the line between Tournament Play - Competitive Play and Casual Play when it comes to List and Unit advice?
I don't think there is any difference between Tournament Play and Competitive Play. If you have a 9/10 list then I will want to make recommendations to make it 10/10, if you make a 2/10 list then I'll want to make recommendations to take it to a 5/10 list, because taking it to a 10/10 list will take it too far away from your list. For competitive play you shouldn't bring a list that is worse than 7/10 and for a casual game I don't think you should bring a list better than 7/10. I often try to make things work, so I go in with a starting challenge of making Nihilakh or triple Monolith work, someone telling me that I will never make a 10/10 Nihilakh or triple Monolith list isn't helping and you never know if Nihilakh is somehow the secret 11/10 dynasty or Monoliths unlock their hidden power when you take 3 at once.
If you post a list here looking for advice I assume you want to improve it, if you are already winning 70% of your games in your casual environment and you mainly play against fluffy Astra Militarum and fluffy Iyanden Craftworld Eldar then why even post the list? I recommended people try Obelisks and Canoptek Reanimators in casual games a page or two back, I do think you can learn something from playing in more casual games, while also realising that if you play in a competitive environment there is basically no chance you will have the success I had with those units. The game is pretty awful competitively at the moment with four armies where Necrons have less than 33% chance of winning, I just don't see the fun in that.
Good points, I like the 7/10 to be at min for Competitive and max for casual. I do wish that people would step back from that ever common "In a vacuum" advice on units. Tunnel vision with advice in this day and age causes many people to not even look at a unit because "Many" think its a trash unit.
I can't tell you over the years of playing since 3rd edition how many "Auto Include" units have been the worst buys and most unfun models to play. That statement doesn't take away from how effective a unit is overall.....it just means that you have to know what works for you more than what works for others on average. The "Dice gods" also laugh at the crowd speak units.
I am switching from warriors with Reapers to Flayers on one because EVERY single game a unit sits there just out of range and does nothing. That Str 5 AP -2 means nothing if you aren't in range.
Tournaments are about winning
Competitive, (Gameshop Play) is about having fun while winning
Casual play requires everyone to check that everyone is having fun win or lose
All of these have a place. I hope to see more advice that crosses all of these perspectives.
winterman wrote: So Necrons made it to the semi finals of the Lone Star Open this weekend, losing to Nayden. Surprised no ones chatting that yet. Cool list
EDIT added wargear ref for Immortals, they had Gauss
Spoiler:
Marshall Peterson - Lone Star Open
Battalion Detachment: 101 PL, 2,000pts, 7CP
Eternal Expansionist combo
Lokhust Lord: Voidreaper, Resurrection Orb, Warlord Trait Honourable Combatant
Overlord: Hand of the Phaeron, Orb of Eternity, Warlord Trait Implacable Conqueror, Warscythe
Technomancer: Canoptek Cloak, Veil of Darkness
His matchups:
1. Mechanicus W
2. Adeptus Sororitas W
3. Drukhari W
4. Custodes W
5. Drukhari L
6. Adeptus Sororitas W
7. White scars W
8. Sean Naydens mixed eldar L
I like the list a lot, other than I am not into immortals (modelling wise not ruleswise...they are superior in the current meta I think). Plays the primary well, has a resonable To the Last option. Seems like this something like this is about the best chance we have until admech gets rebalanced.
Relentless expansionist is pretty much autowin if you go first. But not great if you go second. I assume he took objective secured for the second trait. I bet this guy went first in most of his games he won and lost the ones he went second.
I figured out a long time ago immortals are superior to warriors. They don't require a babysitter chrono / dont need to be in suicide range to get 2 shots. Put them behind lychgaurd and they are free to shoot all game and are hard to remove with 3+ T5 and reanimate. The 2 5 man immortals IMO would be better off being a 10 man but I assume with experience playing the list a lot he figured he needed another unit for objective squatting. IMO immortals are a waste for this. I'd much prefer a LHD or scarab. Then again - In my necron lists I focus much more on killing than I do objective control.
DogHeadGod wrote: I'm leaning towards full vehicle with obsec + interplanetary invaders. We have the tankiest vehicles in the game, every wound protected by transhuman + a 4++ either naturally or with 1cp.
I can fit 9 while keeping action monkeys for retrieve octarius.
CCB
3 dday arks
3 tessie arks
2 annihilation barges
Patrol + spearhead
5 gauss immortals, 2x5 flayed ones for retrieve, with a chrono or techno ferrying the immortals with veil
Round it out w 3x4 scarabs for screening and engage on all fronts.
Should be interesting: painting the last models now.
A list that I am working on with the lots of Quantum Shielding vehicle idea:
Using the CCB gives more mobility to put the Command Protocols where it might be needed and is a shooting platform.
Ghost ark and Necron Warriors is an Objective secured nested doll. Since many objective secured units, that are not ork or nid, typically are minimal sized of 5, starting with a single model Obsec to steal away from non-obsec units then having 10 body obsec as back up.
Dooms Scythe is used to get behind their obscured terrain to get at those non-line of sight shooters. If placed right and they do not shoot it down, should have two turns of shooting anything in their back line. Then if they bother destroying the DS after you placed it within multiple enemy units gives you an auto explode for 1cp D3 mortal wound source.
Heavy L.Destroyers can hide and do Retrieve data first two turns. Then ideally the Warriors can do the third. I recognize this only getting 3 of the 4 quarters.
The most recent test game with this list tabled a pure World Eaters CSM on turn 4 getting 90 points in total between having max Primary (45), Retrieve data (8), Purge the Vermin (15) and Grind them Down (12) + paint. Need to remember when not playing a tournament timed game, to keep at least one unit around to kill on turn 5...
winterman wrote: So Necrons made it to the semi finals of the Lone Star Open this weekend, losing to Nayden. Surprised no ones chatting that yet. Cool list
EDIT added wargear ref for Immortals, they had Gauss
Spoiler:
Marshall Peterson - Lone Star Open
Battalion Detachment: 101 PL, 2,000pts, 7CP
Eternal Expansionist combo
Lokhust Lord: Voidreaper, Resurrection Orb, Warlord Trait Honourable Combatant
Overlord: Hand of the Phaeron, Orb of Eternity, Warlord Trait Implacable Conqueror, Warscythe
Technomancer: Canoptek Cloak, Veil of Darkness
His matchups:
1. Mechanicus W
2. Adeptus Sororitas W
3. Drukhari W
4. Custodes W
5. Drukhari L
6. Adeptus Sororitas W
7. White scars W
8. Sean Naydens mixed eldar L
I like the list a lot, other than I am not into immortals (modelling wise not ruleswise...they are superior in the current meta I think). Plays the primary well, has a resonable To the Last option. Seems like this something like this is about the best chance we have until admech gets rebalanced.
Relentless expansionist is pretty much autowin if you go first. But not great if you go second. I assume he took objective secured for the second trait. I bet this guy went first in most of his games he won and lost the ones he went second.
I figured out a long time ago immortals are superior to warriors. They don't require a babysitter chrono / dont need to be in suicide range to get 2 shots. Put them behind lychgaurd and they are free to shoot all game and are hard to remove with 3+ T5 and reanimate. The 2 5 man immortals IMO would be better off being a 10 man but I assume with experience playing the list a lot he figured he needed another unit for objective squatting. IMO immortals are a waste for this. I'd much prefer a LHD or scarab. Then again - In my necron lists I focus much more on killing than I do objective control.
This list is already here: 40kstats.com.
Objective control is the big thing in the 9th edition - killing not so much.
I'm wondering a bit about the Lokhurst Lord as it looks similar to the Skorpekh Lord.
The difference lies basically in the Lokhurst's warscythe that he has buffed to a voidreaper.
winterman wrote: So Necrons made it to the semi finals of the Lone Star Open this weekend, losing to Nayden. Surprised no ones chatting that yet. Cool list
EDIT added wargear ref for Immortals, they had Gauss
Spoiler:
Marshall Peterson - Lone Star Open
Battalion Detachment: 101 PL, 2,000pts, 7CP
Eternal Expansionist combo
Lokhust Lord: Voidreaper, Resurrection Orb, Warlord Trait Honourable Combatant
Overlord: Hand of the Phaeron, Orb of Eternity, Warlord Trait Implacable Conqueror, Warscythe
Technomancer: Canoptek Cloak, Veil of Darkness
His matchups:
1. Mechanicus W
2. Adeptus Sororitas W
3. Drukhari W
4. Custodes W
5. Drukhari L
6. Adeptus Sororitas W
7. White scars W
8. Sean Naydens mixed eldar L
I like the list a lot, other than I am not into immortals (modelling wise not ruleswise...they are superior in the current meta I think). Plays the primary well, has a resonable To the Last option. Seems like this something like this is about the best chance we have until admech gets rebalanced.
Relentless expansionist is pretty much autowin if you go first. But not great if you go second. I assume he took objective secured for the second trait. I bet this guy went first in most of his games he won and lost the ones he went second.
I figured out a long time ago immortals are superior to warriors. They don't require a babysitter chrono / dont need to be in suicide range to get 2 shots. Put them behind lychgaurd and they are free to shoot all game and are hard to remove with 3+ T5 and reanimate. The 2 5 man immortals IMO would be better off being a 10 man but I assume with experience playing the list a lot he figured he needed another unit for objective squatting. IMO immortals are a waste for this. I'd much prefer a LHD or scarab. Then again - In my necron lists I focus much more on killing than I do objective control.
This list is already here: 40kstats.com.
Objective control is the big thing in the 9th edition - killing not so much.
I'm wondering a bit about the Lokhurst Lord as it looks similar to the Skorpekh Lord.
The difference lies basically in the Lokhurst's warscythe that he has buffed to a voidreaper.
And that the L-Lord has fly to get through or over enemies to charge into characters.
The who goes 1st wins is a reality no matter what army you have or Dynastic code. Its something we all wish we had an answer for.
10 Immortals is good, but I have found the 20 man much harder to remove than a 10 man immortal so I guess it just comes down to the style your list uses.
I have found 10 Deathmarks to be great, but when I play someone with big stuff and not as much T4 characters they don't perform as well.
I think Immortals have a place just like 20 man Warrior squads do.
Relentless expansionist is pretty much autowin if you go first. But not great if you go second. I assume he took objective secured for the second trait. I bet this guy went first in most of his games he won and lost the ones he went second.
I figured out a long time ago immortals are superior to warriors. They don't require a babysitter chrono / dont need to be in suicide range to get 2 shots. Put them behind lychgaurd and they are free to shoot all game and are hard to remove with 3+ T5 and reanimate. The 2 5 man immortals IMO would be better off being a 10 man but I assume with experience playing the list a lot he figured he needed another unit for objective squatting. IMO immortals are a waste for this. I'd much prefer a LHD or scarab. Then again - In my necron lists I focus much more on killing than I do objective control.
Yeah he used the usual combo, 6" move and obsec. Even if you go second, you can back pedal to better positions and at that event it was player placed terrain (on your half of the board, with rules for spacing from other pieces and such) heavily skewed with obscuring keyword. I think that was a huge reason this list could flourish.
For objective babysitters, he's got the scarabs and thralls, LHD though...I see where you are coming from there, at 60 points they are good, but the durability, double count for objectives and general flex you have with 5 models vs 1 has merit.
I'm wondering a bit about the Lokhurst Lord as it looks similar to the Skorpekh Lord.
The difference lies basically in the Lokhurst's warscythe that he has buffed to a voidreaper.
Don't forget fly as Draco765 mentions, and can take the res orb.
I suspect its the res orb that seals the deal though. Getting two chances to bring back Lychguard in a list like this, but still buff the skorpekhs, better all around for the list then meh shooting and durability that the skorpekh lord provides.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also the list gets another shot at greatness this weekend. Another really good Necron player is taking it to the Charity Hammer 32 person event. Which is a bracketed, streamed tourney with some of the strongest players in North America in attendance. Don't think he will go far but will be fun to see nonetheless.
winterman wrote: So Necrons made it to the semi finals of the Lone Star Open this weekend, losing to Nayden. Surprised no ones chatting that yet. Cool list
EDIT added wargear ref for Immortals, they had Gauss
Spoiler:
Marshall Peterson - Lone Star Open
Battalion Detachment: 101 PL, 2,000pts, 7CP
Eternal Expansionist combo
Lokhust Lord: Voidreaper, Resurrection Orb, Warlord Trait Honourable Combatant
Overlord: Hand of the Phaeron, Orb of Eternity, Warlord Trait Implacable Conqueror, Warscythe
Technomancer: Canoptek Cloak, Veil of Darkness
His matchups:
1. Mechanicus W
2. Adeptus Sororitas W
3. Drukhari W
4. Custodes W
5. Drukhari L
6. Adeptus Sororitas W
7. White scars W
8. Sean Naydens mixed eldar L
I like the list a lot, other than I am not into immortals (modelling wise not ruleswise...they are superior in the current meta I think). Plays the primary well, has a resonable To the Last option. Seems like this something like this is about the best chance we have until admech gets rebalanced.
Relentless expansionist is pretty much autowin if you go first. But not great if you go second. I assume he took objective secured for the second trait. I bet this guy went first in most of his games he won and lost the ones he went second.
I figured out a long time ago immortals are superior to warriors. They don't require a babysitter chrono / dont need to be in suicide range to get 2 shots. Put them behind lychgaurd and they are free to shoot all game and are hard to remove with 3+ T5 and reanimate. The 2 5 man immortals IMO would be better off being a 10 man but I assume with experience playing the list a lot he figured he needed another unit for objective squatting. IMO immortals are a waste for this. I'd much prefer a LHD or scarab. Then again - In my necron lists I focus much more on killing than I do objective control.
This list is already here: 40kstats.com.
Objective control is the big thing in the 9th edition - killing not so much.
I'm wondering a bit about the Lokhurst Lord as it looks similar to the Skorpekh Lord.
The difference lies basically in the Lokhurst's warscythe that he has buffed to a voidreaper.
And that the L-Lord has fly to get through or over enemies to charge into characters.
Now I have a quite similar list for testing. Marshall's list (M. Peterson – Lone Star Open) is a good starting point:
When do we hit the point where you are throwing too many points at supporting the unit? What do you think is the 'right' amount? In what combination?
Marshall's list above has shown that one can be successful without Warriors as Immortals have better stats.
My hypothesis is that its not worth atm to bet on Warriors.
iGuy91 wrote: So - Thought experiment for you guys. Interested to get your thoughts.
How best to support a warrior brick?
What do we have available to us?
Chronomancer
Technomancer
Reanimators
Ghost Arks
Overlords/Lords
Rez Orbs
Silent King Reroll bubbles.
Royal Warden fallback
When do we hit the point where you are throwing too many points at supporting the unit? What do you think is the 'right' amount? In what combination?
Depends on how many warriors and the dynasty in my opinion.
Number of warriors determines how much of your list is relying on them, which in turn determines both how much a buff will get used and how much you can afford. I would include very different things for 1x20 then I would for2x20 or 4x20 or more. A guy in another group wanted to run 120 warriors, at that point is a technomancer or ghost ark bringing back a couple warriors worth it at all? I'd say no.
Dynasty also matters. Mephrit for example like to fall back and shoot, so Silent King (to manipulate and double dip for fall back protocol) or Royal Wardens are good picks. Whereas Novokh gets a bit more mileage from a Chronomancer from the reroll charge then Mephrit would.
After that, you should weigh how the item will contribute to the list as a whole. An 80 point reanimator is a great buff to warriors, but doesn't do anything else of note. Where as a Ghost Ark provides a lot more than just returning models (excellent screen, respectable shooting, mobility, transport). The reanimator may still be the better choice for other reasons though (cost, easier to hide, buff works at time of roll rather than relying on unit surviving to get revivals), you just have to weigh the cost and benefits.
With all that, here's the short answer for each one
Chronomancer - Solid pick, better for Novokh or any army with assault elements that could use the inv. Some say no brainer...consider currently how much of the meta is relying on massed AP0-1.
Technomancer - Wouldn't take unless he's also supporting something else (like +1 to hit for Doomstalkers) or variety of units he can rean/heal (lychguard, vehicles).
Reanimators - If you can hide them they have merit. If you know that will be hard, don't bother.
Ghost Arks - Solid pick but mostly for screening.
Overlords/Lords - Rez orb caddys mostly, the extra move and hit buff still worth having.
Rez Orbs - At least one Orb of Eternity if you have 40+ warriors.
Silent King - Not as great in the current Admech dominated meta but he brings a lot to the table. Not mandatory, but ibrings a lot to the table.
Royal Warden - Great in Mephrit, decent with other dynasty. Not a must for me
I don't think you will ever have a list with all the things, but most lists with a lot of warriors will have at least one noble with a res orb and one chronomancer.
I am not as big a fan of any 5++ because I simply fail more than 75% of the roles. (Its the same problem I have with the Nightbringer, out of the last 4 games, I have made the 2+ role for Thunderbolt only twice total).
I will say that a Chronomancer is pretty good all around and that charge reroll paid off more than the 5++. Plus the 10 point gun upgrade is pretty nice, (I seem to hit that all the time and then point to the Nightbringer and say, "See, that's how its done!").
As for just the Warrior support portion of your question.......a Chronomancer, Technomancer and Ghost Ark are all good at supporting them defensively while an Overlord/Lord/Silent King, Royal Warden support their offense.
I have to have a lumbering "War of the Worlds" bot on my battlefield so I use my 3 Reanimators as Doomstalkers, (need to find two more Heavy Death Rays to use as the guns).
Automatically Appended Next Post: On another note, I had a scratch that needed itching so I modified my Annihilation Barge to be a CCB. That triggered me to modify the look of my unbuilt Tomb Blades.....
Long story short - Has anyone had fun running a CCB with 5, 6 or more Tomb Blades and if so, what build did you use?
Mathematically, TBs are an amazing way to get mobile Immortal Gauss on the board at a comparable cost.
In reality, I find them to be an immediate target, a bit too fragile even with the 3+, and too expensive with the 3+/5++. For an expensive bit of kit which competes with a scarab slot, I just haven't found a good use for them other than providing a target for my opponent's anti infantry.
Having more threats to be targeted is needed because too much is going at my Nighhtbringer and Skorpekh Destroyers. This and my Doomstalkers should pull off some shots while the 20 and 20 warrior mobs push up.
I agree that it sucks to have to pump up a unit cost wise in order to make it worth while.......my 4 up warriors have been better saving than my opponents 3 up save. :-)
BillyN831 wrote: What is good necrons for crusade? Thankee thankee.
Ehhh if you're playing crusade and you're not trying to min-max the progression system then just take what you like/what fits the theme of the Necrons you have. Crusade (as GW intends) is a means of facilitating a narrative and telling a story, tactics and list-building don't really matter as much if you and your gaming group are playing with that intent as well.
wuestenfux wrote: How about a pure DESTROYER cult or CANOPTEK cult army besides the troop units?
Any ideas or results with those kind of armies?
Well destroyer cult is easy. Destroyers and Skorpekhs have pretty high damage outputs, so it should be a pretty killy force, and they have a couple of HQ units to go with it.
Canoptek I'm not sure about. I guess take crypteks and start buffing units? You'll want Doomstalkers for damage output and scarabs will be your bread and butter.
Scarabs should really be troops instead of fast attack, imo. They are supposed to be the most ubiquitous part of a necron force, even more so than warriors.
Has anyone had any experience or at least can mathhammer some numbers for the FW Sentry Pylons?
Unfortunately they’re fortifications but do have deep strike and at only 100 points per sentry with the gauss exterminator you’re getting:
BS 3+ T7 W8 SV3+
48" Heavy 2 S8 AP-3 D D6 -Each time an attack is made with this weapon against an AIRCRAFT unit, add 2 to that attack's hit roll.
D6 damage still sucks but for only 100 points? I’m definitely intrigued.
Edit: Figured I’d add the other weapon options for comparison.
Focused Death Ray 36" Heavy 1 S12 AP-4 D D3+3 -
Heat Cannon (25pts) 36" Heavy D6 S8 AP-4 D D6 -Each time an attack made with this weapon targets a unit within half range, that attack has a Damage characteristic of D6+2
Mixzremixzd wrote: Has anyone had any experience or at least can mathhammer some numbers for the FW Sentry Pylons?
No, but I doubt this is the edition to start using them.
Sentry Pylon is 12,5 pts per T7 SV3+ vs DDA is 11,4 pts per T6 QS Sv 3+/5++ wound, tonnes better.
50 pts per gauss Sentry shot vs 49 pts per DDA shot. Heavy D6 has its ups and downs, but when you add the 2 flayer arrays it's not even remotely fair. Deep strike is not that strong unless you are using the heat cannon.
Heat cannon is the only thing that has any chance of being remotely viable unless you are playing on planet bowling ball, if you want to test it out take 6, all with heat cannons. The trouble is that the pricing on the weapons is pretty much perfect, getting within 18" is dangerous for a model this expensive with no invulnerable save. Consider playing it in a glass cannon build so your opponent cannot take out all the teeth of your list by busting down your Sentry Pylons. The base cost is about 25 too high compared to a DDA.
wuestenfux wrote: How about a pure DESTROYER cult or CANOPTEK cult army besides the troop units?
Any ideas or results with those kind of armies?
There's a destroyer cult list that has had some success in the western USA.I think it has a bad time into admech though.
He uses one each skopekh and lokust lord, 2x5 skopekh destoyers, 2x5 ophidian destroyers, 2x 5 Lokhust Destroyers, 2x 3 Lokhust H Destroyers w/ Enmitic and 1x 3 Lokhust H Destroyers w/ Gauss Destructor. Later build was single spearhead using +1 charge and 6" move custom dynasty, another build split the detachments, novokh for choppy, mephrit for shooty. I talked to him a bit about it at my last event, his plan was basically win primary by blowing people off objectives. Forgot to ask him about his secondaries.
I have been considering a canoptek build personally (mostly wraiths and scarabs, some support from doomstalker and spyders potentially). Haven't seen anyone build a pure one but the units all seem to make their way into lists, so could be something there.
Mixzremixzd wrote: Has anyone had any experience or at least can mathhammer some numbers for the FW Sentry Pylons?
No, but I doubt this is the edition to start using them.
Sentry Pylon is 12,5 pts per T7 SV3+ vs DDA is 11,4 pts per T6 QS Sv 3+/5++ wound, tonnes better.
50 pts per gauss Sentry shot vs 49 pts per DDA shot. Heavy D6 has its ups and downs, but when you add the 2 flayer arrays it's not even remotely fair. Deep strike is not that strong unless you are using the heat cannon.
Heat cannon is the only thing that has any chance of being remotely viable unless you are playing on planet bowling ball, if you want to test it out take 6, all with heat cannons. The trouble is that the pricing on the weapons is pretty much perfect, getting within 18" is dangerous for a model this expensive with no invulnerable save. Consider playing it in a glass cannon build so your opponent cannot take out all the teeth of your list by busting down your Sentry Pylons. The base cost is about 25 too high compared to a DDA.
Thanks for the breakdown. Ugh I really don't wanna touch the DDA kit ever again so I'm trying to find any silver lining to avoid it.
If you're trying to avoid the Doomsday Ark you're probably better off looking at Heavy Destroyers, they've still got a pretty serious fragility problem but their shooting is pretty good for the points and if you keep them in 1-model squads you can hide them.
I am concerned whether you have enough anti-vehicle, I'd think that'd be an extra large concern fighting Iron Hands. Gauss cannon on your CCB is definitely better than tesla cannon since you have the 5 points anyway, although I can understand if WYSIWIG is an issue.
I think Voltaic Staff is a much better relic than Voidreaper, I can see it might be better against IH Dreadnoughts but I don't build lists for just one opponent.
I am concerned whether you have enough anti-vehicle, I'd think that'd be an extra large concern fighting Iron Hands. Gauss cannon on your CCB is definitely better than tesla cannon since you have the 5 points anyway, although I can understand if WYSIWIG is an issue.
I think Voltaic Staff is a much better relic than Voidreaper, I can see it might be better against IH Dreadnoughts but I don't build lists for just one opponent.
Thanks for the comments. Indeed, gauss cannon brings the list to 2000 pts on the dot.
My concern with the Skorpekhs is that they have no inv. save while in my list I have six cc units with 4++ save. CCB is more geared towards cc and so I prefer the void reaper as it does not allow rolls of feel no pain.
Why should it be FAQed ? Its an ability from the unit. Skorpekh and Ophydian are different units, with different abilities. Just because they share the same weapon doesnt mean they can do the same with it.
p5freak wrote: Why should it be FAQed ? Its an ability from the unit. Skorpekh and Ophydian are different units, with different abilities. Just because they share the same weapon doesnt mean they can do the same with it.
Because the ability has the name of the weapon and it makes no sense why Ophydians would be better at using the weapon.
p5freak wrote: Why should it be FAQed ? Its an ability from the unit. Skorpekh and Ophydian are different units, with different abilities. Just because they share the same weapon doesnt mean they can do the same with it.
Because the ability has the name of the weapon and it makes no sense why Ophydians would be better at using the weapon.
It makes sense that a unit is better with a weapon than another unit. An overlord hits on 2+ with a staff of light, a technomancer only hits on 3+. A CCB hits on 2+ with a gauss cannon, lokhust destroyers hit on 3+.
p5freak wrote: Why should it be FAQed ? Its an ability from the unit. Skorpekh and Ophydian are different units, with different abilities. Just because they share the same weapon doesnt mean they can do the same with it.
Because the ability has the name of the weapon and it makes no sense why Ophydians would be better at using the weapon.
It makes sense that a unit is better with a weapon than another unit. An overlord hits on 2+ with a staff of light, a technomancer only hits on 3+. A CCB hits on 2+ with a gauss cannon, lokhust destroyers hit on 3+.
What you're saying is that Ophydians have a higher skill to use the reap-blades than the Skorpekhs.
Makes not much sense if you ask me.
p5freak wrote: Why should it be FAQed ? Its an ability from the unit. Skorpekh and Ophydian are different units, with different abilities. Just because they share the same weapon doesnt mean they can do the same with it.
Because the ability has the name of the weapon and it makes no sense why Ophydians would be better at using the weapon.
It makes sense that a unit is better with a weapon than another unit. An overlord hits on 2+ with a staff of light, a technomancer only hits on 3+. A CCB hits on 2+ with a gauss cannon, lokhust destroyers hit on 3+.
An Overlord is better at using ALL weapons in melee than a Technomancer, an Ophydian Destroyer is better at using one specific weapon than Skorpekh Destroyers. To what degree are you certain that GW didn't just forget to copy-paste the ability?
p5freak wrote: Why should it be FAQed ? Its an ability from the unit. Skorpekh and Ophydian are different units, with different abilities. Just because they share the same weapon doesnt mean they can do the same with it.
Because the ability has the name of the weapon and it makes no sense why Ophydians would be better at using the weapon.
I always thought it was because a single Ophydian has 2 Reap-blades on the model as opposed to the 1 carried by a Skorpekh. Made sense to me cause the special rule on the Ophydian datasheet has Reap-blades pluralised.
Tactically, Wraiths and Lychguard could work together as follows:
After Relentlessly Expansionist, one Wraith unit and one Lychguard unit are side by side.
In round 1, both units move forward.
Suppose Wraiths are able to charge. Lychguard advances being ready for the next turn.
In round 2, Lychguard unit moves forward and Wraith unit falls back.
Then both, Lychguard unit should be able to charge the unit left behind by the Wraith unit. Wraith unit benefits from Slinging Strike and should be able to charge another unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On another note, I had a scratch that needed itching so I modified my Annihilation Barge to be a CCB. That triggered me to modify the look of my unbuilt Tomb Blades.....
Long story short - Has anyone had fun running a CCB with 5, 6 or more Tomb Blades and if so, what build did you use?
I have been running 3x5 gauss bikes in a mephrit detachment. With a CCB that has the void reaper and +1 attack and strength warlord trait. It’s not the best but at str 8 he at least has a chance at getting a few wounds into something tough, with voidreaper so a chance to actually kill something. Also a technomancer with cloak.
The volume of fire is pretty decent IMO. The extra 1.5” range on the double tap made a difference.
5 bikes is 20 shots hitting on 2’s, wounding pretty much everything I shoot at on 5’s at -3 d1. Using the strat to make 6’s to hit auto wound seems like decent value. If there arnt vehicles I’m worried about (probably rare) then they do well against elite infantry as well, with lots of units getting t5 these days.
I went with shields and scopes, I wouldn’t argue with anyone who preferred the 5++ though, metta pick I guess.
Technomancer with cloak. If someone is split firing your squads down he can revive bikes in both units and heal wounds on your ccb perhaps. Bikes are the most valuable revive unless you’re rolling hot on d3 warriors, which I’m not taking.
Barge lord is fairly durable but Im aware he’d get punked by lots of stuff. I need the anti tank though, he’s maneuverable enough I should be able to choose what to put him into. Both my bikes and ccb would be focused on my anti tank if vehicles are going to be a problem so I don’t have to worry about the barge and the bikes wanting to be doing different things. Both units also have large footprints. Rites of reanimation has a 6” range and techno doesn’t mind missing out on a staff of light to advance. Including scarabs I havnt had issues with various unit speeds. Everything flies of course.
My other detachment is full board control so that’s basically all of my shooting/ anti tank. Multiple dynasties has been well worth the loss of protocols, especially not having to worry about having enough character coverage.
On another note, I had a scratch that needed itching so I modified my Annihilation Barge to be a CCB. That triggered me to modify the look of my unbuilt Tomb Blades.....
Long story short - Has anyone had fun running a CCB with 5, 6 or more Tomb Blades and if so, what build did you use?
I have been running 3x5 gauss bikes in a mephrit detachment. With a CCB that has the void reaper and +1 attack and strength warlord trait. It’s not the best but at str 8 he at least has a chance at getting a few wounds into something tough, with voidreaper so a chance to actually kill something. Also a technomancer with cloak.
The volume of fire is pretty decent IMO. The extra 1.5” range on the double tap made a difference.
5 bikes is 20 shots hitting on 2’s, wounding pretty much everything I shoot at on 5’s at -3 d1. Using the strat to make 6’s to hit auto wound seems like decent value. If there arnt vehicles I’m worried about (probably rare) then they do well against elite infantry as well, with lots of units getting t5 these days.
I went with shields and scopes, I wouldn’t argue with anyone who preferred the 5++ though, metta pick I guess.
Technomancer with cloak. If someone is split firing your squads down he can revive bikes in both units and heal wounds on your ccb perhaps. Bikes are the most valuable revive unless you’re rolling hot on d3 warriors, which I’m not taking.
Barge lord is fairly durable but Im aware he’d get punked by lots of stuff. I need the anti tank though, he’s maneuverable enough I should be able to choose what to put him into. Both my bikes and ccb would be focused on my anti tank if vehicles are going to be a problem so I don’t have to worry about the barge and the bikes wanting to be doing different things. Both units also have large footprints. Rites of reanimation has a 6” range and techno doesn’t mind missing out on a staff of light to advance. Including scarabs I havnt had issues with various unit speeds. Everything flies of course.
My other detachment is full board control so that’s basically all of my shooting/ anti tank. Multiple dynasties has been well worth the loss of protocols, especially not having to worry about having enough character coverage.
Yeah it’s been fun.
Have you thought about including Szeras for buffs to the TBs? I'm considering a list that would focus on immortals and TBs buffed by Szeras w/ some elite choices holding up the cc and denial (hex + gauntlet, skorpekhs, T C'tan, spyder + prism) and then taking 3x1 LHDs w/ gauss all in a Szarekhan dynasty (considering the potential massive increase to MWs w/ new GK and TSons).
I should also clarify that I think this list would be best if taking secondaries that force the opponent to come to you -- Purge is a must, you could possibly run ROD since TBs are fast as feth and you have the hex for an optional move, Could opt for mission secondary some games or assassinate/bring it down potentially. Might struggle if you go for stranglehold/banners as I don't think there's a huge amount of long-term survival on mid-field objectives so you're going to need to hold your opponent to 10 points primary and match it each turn by trading out immortal squads efficiently and then winning on secondaries.
Havnt thought of that, would run counter to the dynasties I was planning on using though.
I think a big squad of bikes or two would go very well next to silent king. +1 to hit and rerolling is a little redundant until you’re dealing with cover.
Well, Szeras buff is random so my thought is that play slightly will adjust based on what the TBs get and be more aggressive or passive based on the buff for each immortal squad. +1 T on TBs seems pretty decent honestly.
I'm gonna just post the list I'm thinking about so you can have more context and critique/compare if you feel like it.
I'm not sold on specifics of my own list as I haven't tested any of this yet so feel free to pick things apart that you don't like. The TBs I'm not sure if I'd rather have ignore cover or invulns, I am also toying w/ the idea of trying to fit the Hypermaterial Ablator to use on the TBs exclusively to give them a 2+ all the time (basically). I think that'd be quite hard to achieve so I'm not really sure it's worth but probly worth testing.
Transcendent C'tan [14 PL, 270pts]: Fractured Personality: Cosmic Tyrant, Power of the C'tan: Seismic Assault, Power of the C'tan: Transdimensional Thunderbolt
Da-Rock wrote: I tested out Blades in various forms - 3, 5 and 6 in qty and with 5++, 3+, and Particle Beamer.
5++ is just not in my dice.....just as with my Chronomancer escorting my Skorpekh Destroyers, they just always fail the 5++
3+ save is nice, but not enough for the points since so much has -1 and -2 AP.
I did enjoy the 6 shots at 18" from Particle Beamer. Massed shots did work, but as always that varies per target.
I am in Love/Lust over Doomstalkers.........x3 and a Technomancer is too much for the casual games, but I found x2 and a Techno are still really good.
I guess my thought was more in context of goals. The math can be worked out but I'm curious if they'll accomplish what I want them to. That might be something I'll only know once I've had a chance to playtest though.
Cauthon wrote: How does ap-1 and 2 make shields not worth it? Cheaper than the invuln with better or equal saves. There’s also a lot of ap- dash.
Shields are cheaper than the invuln so they are “better” until you hit ap3. The question is what you’re expecting so see more of. Ap3 or less than.
If you like the 5++ then more power to you. It’s not better vs ap1 and 2 though.
True, I made a slight adjustment to the list in that direction as well replacing the invulns w/ ignores cover to 8/9 of them and then giving the 'counts as cover' cryptek upgrade to the chrono so the TBs will effectively be 2+ save until I decide to veil of darkness something and he's too far away. Since I plan on the list playing cagey I think that's a good starting point and if it doesn't feel like something I can easily maintain then I'll see about moving points around a bit.
Cauthon wrote: How does ap-1 and 2 make shields not worth it? Cheaper than the invuln with better or equal saves. There’s also a lot of ap- dash.
Shields are cheaper than the invuln so they are “better” until you hit ap3. The question is what you’re expecting so see more of. Ap3 or less than.
If you like the 5++ then more power to you. It’s not better vs ap1 and 2 though.
I may have misspoke in that....I hate 5++ because it fails so often for me, but damn I can role a 4+ :-)
I see far too much -2 and my 3+ saves would all go to 5+ which I am piss poor at. My point was towards more bodies used with the points over better saves. It was the same with my Chronomancer and his 5++ save for my Destroyers.....just never panned out and having a Techno with the ability to bring back a Destroyer worked out better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: * add on question here - are two 3 man Skorpekh Destroyers better than one 6 man?
I have seen some issues where a ton of fire hits and kills them all....having them have to guess with the split fire would have saved a few.....or is it just better overall to have the 6 man?
* add on question here - are two 3 man Skorpekh Destroyers better than one 6 man?
I have seen some issues where a ton of fire hits and kills them all....having them have to guess with the split fire would have saved a few.....or is it just better overall to have the 6 man?
The consideration is basically buffs vs board control. The advantage of small squads is moving separately and controlling more board space. The downside is you can't defend both units w/ the -1 to wound strat nor with a chrono 5++ since you'd need 2 at that point. Some argue that 5 man squads is best, but I'm not sure of that either tbh since you lose quite a large amount of output. Could be better if you expect large amount of blast weapon firepower, otherwise I think it's worse.
Well, new list for testing soon. Using relentlessly expansionist, there is no need for troops.
So I play Lychguard and Wraiths in pairs supported by ABs and LHDs.
Played against the new 1000 Sons. Getting hard punked on every Psychic phase really sucks for Necrons.
I don't like altering my list just to deal with that. I want to design something that can handle them, (going to be playing against them a lot in future), but I do need to do something.....
My first thought was 10 Deathmarks and using the Abhor the Witch secondary. The second was using two CTan and Deathmarks. (This would require me pulling my Skorpekh Destroyers and two Doomstalkers).
I won on Points due to Obsec and the 6" pre battle move, but I didn't have much left alive.
Anyone else have ideas for dealing with the increased Mortal Wounds?
Da-Rock wrote: Played against the new 1000 Sons. Getting hard punked on every Psychic phase really sucks for Necrons.
I don't like altering my list just to deal with that. I want to design something that can handle them, (going to be playing against them a lot in future), but I do need to do something.....
My first thought was 10 Deathmarks and using the Abhor the Witch secondary. The second was using two CTan and Deathmarks. (This would require me pulling my Skorpekh Destroyers and two Doomstalkers).
I won on Points due to Obsec and the 6" pre battle move, but I didn't have much left alive.
Anyone else have ideas for dealing with the increased Mortal Wounds?
You don't need to have much left alive. Deathmarks are a bad idea, if you are not spamming Warriors then Scarabs are amazing, even if you are spamming Warriors then Scarabs will probably still make your list better into the 1kSons matchup. You could also consider running The Silent King.
Da-Rock wrote: Yes, spamming warriors and scarabs to the max amount I own.
Why are Deathmarks bad at 10 models and having Ahbor the Witch Secondary?
Abhor is an auto-take, but you cannot rely on Deathmarks to kill characters, they've got an extra wound now and it wasn't exactly easy previously. I played 30 Deathmarks against the old Thousand Sons and they managed to kill only 1 or 2 characters over the course of an entire game. It's not that Deathmarks are bad against Thousand Sons, they are just either bad or terrible against anything else and basically mediocre against Thousand Sons. Try it out, see if it works for you. The Auspex Scan Stratagem they get might be amazing depending on terrain.
Maybe its just my rolling a lot of 6s with them. I tend to do 2 to 3 with actual weapon and 2 to 3 in mortals.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Do you guys think more of everything is the answer? I like a double Star God list with lots of warriors and scarabs, but it seems the only basic answer is Silent King with his Dynastic code etc.
Could be just me, but double C’tan feels like a waste against any psychic heavy army because they will reliably be able to get the 3 damage in the psychic phase in addition to shooting/melee against both C’tans. There would be situations where they could reasonably threaten both C’tans in one turn if they hit you with a psychic early on.
True, but its far easier to shield them from melee against 1000 Sons. I bubble wrap them with 6 to 8 Scarab squads.
It also distracts from objectives most often and I can divert my other resources to getting them. It also tends to spread out specific units that they need to deal with the C'Tan.
Sure, C'tan's are not ideal against armies that can threaten in every phase. You take them for other lists, that are primarily confined to one or two phases.
The issue is that new codexes seem to bring with them more opportunities for unusual damage (e.g impact hits). Ad Mech used to struggle with them, but found ways to get around it, for example.
That said, I will never argue against the C'tain. They just do something unique. And Voidy is gorgeous
Umbros wrote: The issue is that new codexes seem to bring with them more opportunities for unusual damage (e.g impact hits). Ad Mech used to struggle with them, but found ways to get around it, for example.
That said, I will never argue against the C'tain. They just do something unique. And Voidy is gorgeous
As I've been reminded over and over throughout any game I've played in which I didn't bring the NB: He's too important as a deterrent to not take. As much as his price point absolutely blows, his presence is such an important deterrent especially against armies like new GK. If they're playing a heavy DK list, you're REALLLYYY going to want him in there to clean up in combat. 4+ invulns on those guys is legitimately so hard to chew through if your list isn't tailored specifically for it.
I'm just praying that the next point adjustment sees -100ish to all of our ctan cause they're really just that bad for their points cost relative to everything else that's new.
I like the attrition game to a point, but after playing against the new 1000 Sons I really really dislike watching half my models go each Psychic phase.
I will try my NightVoid list and see if they both evaporate too quickly. :-)
I just found a great purchase of 9 Wraiths, 15 Scarabs and 3 Spyders........
I made a new list with this as my center piece............any list suggestions for the above? Is rolling with just 2 Technomancers as HQs ok?
Also: I was trying to build a pirate version of the Silent King out of a Ghost Ark and Logan Grimnar's Santa Sled......then I discovered a picture of the Tesseract Ark...........is that any good?
Da-Rock wrote: I just found a great purchase of 9 Wraiths, 15 Scarabs and 3 Spyders........
I made a new list with this as my center piece............any list suggestions for the above? Is rolling with just 2 Technomancers as HQs ok?
Also: I was trying to build a pirate version of the Silent King out of a Ghost Ark and Logan Grimnar's Santa Sled......then I discovered a picture of the Tesseract Ark...........is that any good?
Tesseract Ark is one of the highest value vehicle available to Necrons for their points. Unfortunately they're about $100 each but that's a separate problem.
Da-Rock wrote: I like the attrition game to a point, but after playing against the new 1000 Sons I really really dislike watching half my models go each Psychic phase.
I will try my NightVoid list and see if they both evaporate too quickly. :-)
I don't see Necrons as competitive, even Tsons seem just better
Wraiths and Lychguard go in pairs.
Wraiths are faster able to engage an enemy while Lychguard lacks behind.
But Wraiths' slinking strike allows them to fall back taking on another enemy unit while at the same time Lychguard should be able to charge the enemy unit left behind by the Wraiths mopping up the remnants.
You'll have to let me know how 15 Wraits and Lychguard rolls and if the Heavy Lokhust perform.
I have 12 Wraiths and 18 Scarabs, but I am trying to find a ranged heavy hitter response, but I do not own Lokhust. x3 Doomstalkers is nice, but expensive.....
The only thing that is going to keep Necrons in the game vs 1KSons or GK is gonna be the Szerakhan dynasty code to get the 5+++ vs Mortal wounds, paired with scarab screens to absorb smites efficiently.
I think that we'll lack staying power at this point sticking to the same tired Relentless/Eternal Conqueror combo.
Necrons are new to our group so that isn't tired. The Silent King's Dynasty was my go to as I would have army wide 5+++, reroll a wound roll per unit, x3 Psyker spell counters and the 1 cp spell counter stratagem.
I just didn't want to go full "Slow Jack" towards 1000 Sons. I guess it will depend on everyone else's list.
Play tested a new list to see the flow and while I like it it seems to be less my style. Maybe I need to get out of my "shooty" theme more.
Question: If I am running a Technomancer with a Control Node to help my 12 Wraiths and a CCB with Relic Orb to bring a number of them back, (also have x2 Reanimators to get 3+ with Orb....if that is correct), do you find it as har as I do to keep the Technomancer and CCB in range of everything that wants it?
Other Question.....Novok or 6" pregame move and Obsec......opinions when it applies to a heavy Wraith, Spyder and Scarab list?
RP cannot be modified more than +1. Give the technomancer thrall of the silent king to increase his control node range to 9". I prefer pregame move and obsec. Novokh does nothing when you dont reach melee.
Thank you for the info. Reanimators are nice, but after looking at what I had, the Nightbringer just looked too good, so he is back in.
CCB just seems like a massive waste of points when it doesn't give much to a Canoptek list. Bumped it down to a Lord with relic Orb. Already had Node on Technomancer.
If I ever play the CCB I think I will always want Tomb Blades with him. My CCB always sucks wind in Melee so no wasting Voltaic on him.
I am liking more Scarabs and more Wraiths now. :-)
Typically I do Eternal Guardian turn one, choosing Cover if I’m going second and Steady/Defend if I’m going first. Turn two is Conquering Tyrant to let me Fall Back and shoot, generally wasted if I ended up going first. Turn three is Sudden Storm if I’ve got Actions in that game. Otherwise Undying Legions and Vengeful Stars wrap me up with just some nice bonuses.
russellmoo wrote: Decided to just pull out the necrons
My question is
What is the best order for protocols?
And what are the list factors that determine a shift?
Meaning is it dependent on what dynasty is being run or should vengeful stars and hungry void always be used between turns 2-4?
T1 Guardian - survivability is crucial in the early game and you can deploy your forces out in the open instead of compromising position to get cover or stack the bonus on top of the -1 to hit from a forest. If enemy shooting or T1 charges are not a concern, Storm is good for board control and Stars is good against heavily-armoured enemies.
T2 Legions - same role as Guardian, it comes after Guardian because if you go first then you won't have any damaged vehicles. Using Storm T2 is good if you have shooty deep strike units that need to perform an action. Against heavily armoured shooting factions Stars is good T2 since shooting armies are better able to ensure that none of our units survive in a damaged state.
T3 Tyrant - You'll probably have shooting unit in melee T3, T2 would be more impactful in some circumstances, but leaving it for T3 makes it give more reliable value. If you don't have shooting units then I would move Tyrant to T5.
T4 Void - Even our slowest or rearguard units will have made it into combat by now. If you are running a list with only vehicles or something silly then you should go for Stars instead.
T5 Storm - Get to the objectives and do the actions, killing enemy units and surviving here is not as important.
I leave Tyrant for T6 when I use the Silent King, that enables me to use it when it can have the largest impact, whether that is T2 or T4.
Void T2 when using Novokh for deep striky killy goodness.
Reroll a Reanimation dice has been great turn one or turn two as keeping things like my Wraith alive is vital, but to be honest............all of these really depend so much on what your army has and what your opponent has.
Some like getting to do actions depend on if that is in your plans and I always thought getting it off early when you can dictate it easier is better than waiting latter when you won't know what is alive and where on the board it will be.
The more I play the less I like Protocols due to the need to be within range of a character.................my damn Wraiths movement ALWAYS puts them out of reach of everything....including a CCB with orb!
Plasmancers are simply amazing. I took out the five Lychguard in my Crusade force for a pair of them and they just get So Much Work done. Just a steady stream of Mortal Wounds the opponent can’t Deny. Get closer to them and they do Even More.
AduroT wrote: Plasmancers are simply amazing. I took out the five Lychguard in my Crusade force for a pair of them and they just get So Much Work done. Just a steady stream of Mortal Wounds the opponent can’t Deny. Get closer to them and they do Even More.
I used them and they are good, cheap and worthy of the Veil of Darkness, but in my Wraith/Scarab list they are far too slow......My double C'Tan can barely keep up. If I had a different/slower list I think they would be awesome behind Warrior mobs and scarabs that were pacing themselves.... :-)
So I tried something I have been having issue with in a play test, but was wondering if people could poke holes in it.............
I run a heavy Wraith and Scarab list with Nightbringer and Skorpekh Destroyers........my Technomancer with Control Node and one regen of canoptek model has a massive issue with speed. He is never in position due to his 5" move. I run him and do all that I can to keep him in range, but as you all know, Wraiths go through stuff while the walking Technomancer has to walk/run around it.
I've tried CCB with Orb, but even its often not fast enough, has a big foot print and is always just outside of the needed 6" in the command phase for Orb.
My solution = put Veil of Darkness on Technomancer and have a 10 man Warriors squad escort him in the jump to 9" away from enemy. Wraiths are already near that and on charge will be within the need 9" +1 Attack range and 6" Reanimate range.
Da-Rock wrote: So I tried something I have been having issue with in a play test, but was wondering if people could poke holes in it.............
I run a heavy Wraith and Scarab list with Nightbringer and Skorpekh Destroyers........my Technomancer with Control Node and one regen of canoptek model has a massive issue with speed. He is never in position due to his 5" move. I run him and do all that I can to keep him in range, but as you all know, Wraiths go through stuff while the walking Technomancer has to walk/run around it.
I've tried CCB with Orb, but even its often not fast enough, has a big foot print and is always just outside of the needed 6" in the command phase for Orb.
My solution = put Veil of Darkness on Technomancer and have a 10 man Warriors squad escort him in the jump to 9" away from enemy. Wraiths are already near that and on charge will be within the need 9" +1 Attack range and 6" Reanimate range.
You could just give him the deep strike wargear or outflank him if you don't need him T1. You could also take a Ghost Ark or Night Scythe. Technomancers are Infantry so they can walk through ruins. Veil of Darkness being great isn't news, perhaps you should consider taking 5 Immortals instead of 10 Warriors to save points.
Play Nephrekh and you can Deepstrike him for 1 CP, and then when he runs he always gets the extra 6” and can move thru terrain! And if he doesn’t run you can give him the staff that denies your opponent Overwatch!
1st Turn I am one turn away from charging and I've taken damage to my Wraiths/Destroyers.....
Rites of Reanimation is Command Phase so I need a 1st turn Veil jump to be there on Turn 2 Command phase and within 6". (I love a 20 point, "Bring back a Wraith or Destroyer" ability). I reanimate and then send them in. I have the Thrall of the Silent King as that is mandatory.
Each mission and terrain dictates a lot, but often there is a midfield Objective and I like veiling in 10 to 15 warriors. The Technomancer is more reliable than an Orb, (in all my games) as it can revive D3 warriors, but not Immortals, (sucks!). 5 vs 10 to 15 leans to Warriors.
Finished game six of the Crusade League, the last of the 500pt games. Sidelining the Lychguard for the pair of Plasmancers was definitely the smartest decision. Those two just carry my games, and after being tabled the first two games I went on to three wins and a draw I Should have won but for absentminded model placement on my part after their inclusion. And they’re only getting Better, with one having gotten the once per game roll three extra dice for Mortal Wounds, and both nearing level three where they’ll pick up some Arkana to deal even more Mortals.
Meanwhile I realized after game four I had been cheating in games 2-4 when I gave my Phaeron a Crusade Relic he can’t have until Heroic tier because I missed a single line header at the top of the page. It was only actually Used in one of the games, being a relic that grants my Phaeron a Deny The Witch attempt and only one of the three games having an opposing psyker, but it was also that draw, so maybe that one Shouldn’t have been a victory. I’ve been piling the bonus three exp on my Phaeron most games, plus he demonstrated Nephrekh’s dominance over the vile Novokh Dynasty in game six (in large part to a lucky roll to go first) to earn that bonus five exp, so he’s actually already just a mere one game away from being able to repurchase the Relic, plus a second Relic of the same rarity at the same time. I think he’s going to earn the name Taneleer for his habits, and take the bonus exp for killing characters with Relics trait from the list he gets to choose from for that third victory.
With the ability to use Harb of Destruction twice a turn makes them a good choice.
Able to get reroll ones as well makes them damage dealing far more consistent.
They only get to double Harbinger once per game though, so that’s Nice, but not Great. In general it’s just the pair of them sitting there rolling six dice between them and doing a Mortal Wound for every 4+. No Deny the Witch. If you get up and engage their Warrior “meat” shield in melee, something they typically don’t like, that’s Another two 4+ Mortal Wounds, except now it’s again each target in range, not just the closest, and that goes off in Both players’ turns. There’s been a couple times where something engaged the Warriors, and I didn’t have to fall back to be able to shoot because the Plasmancers just cleaned up. For Arkana I’m planning on the Quantum Orb ital strike, and the one that does yet more Mortal Wounds for ending a Charge Move near them. The opponents are suddenly discovering a love for the Artisan Bionics Crusade Relic for its 5+ save vs Mortal Wounds for their Warlords.
Quick question, would a unit killed by the Triarchal Menhirs count for the Code of Combat secondary since they don't have the Noble keyword but are part of a unit that does? My interpretation is no but I want to be sure.
Mixzremixzd wrote: Quick question, would a unit killed by the Triarchal Menhirs count for the Code of Combat secondary since they don't have the Noble keyword but are part of a unit that does? My interpretation is no but I want to be sure.
KEYWORDS (SZAREKH): VEHICLE, CHARACTER, FLY, SUPREME COMMANDER, PHAERON, NOBLE, DYNASTIC AGENT, THE SILENT KING
KEYWORDS (TRIARCHAL MENHIRS): VEHICLE, FLY, DYNASTIC AGENT, THE SILENT KING, TRIARCHAL MENHIRS
Score 3 victory points at the end of the battle for each enemy unit that was destroyed by a NECRONS NOBLE unit from your army.
I'd say it counts if my opponent was using it, it was destroyed by a unit with the NOBLE and NECRONS keywords. I'd ask the TO/my opponent before choosing it myself though.
More appropriate for UMDC forum, this is way too biased a place to show your opponent "well the internet says this" which is sort of weak in the first place. "Necron players agree, it should be interpreted in the way that benefits Necrons" is maybe exaggerating but that's how I'd feel if a Grey Knights player tried to convince me about a rules interpretation from a GK tactics thread.
Mixzremixzd wrote: Quick question, would a unit killed by the Triarchal Menhirs count for the Code of Combat secondary since they don't have the Noble keyword but are part of a unit that does? My interpretation is no but I want to be sure.
Yes. Allow me to quote the Core Rules:
"While a unit has models with different keywords, it is considered to have all the keywords of all of its models"
Since Szarekh has the Noble keyword, the entire unit is considered to have the Noble keyword. Code of Combat does not require a Noble "model" to destroy an enemy unit - it requires a Noble "unit". Therefore, units destroyed by either the Menhirs or Szarekh will qualify for Code of Combat.
Mixzremixzd wrote: Quick question, would a unit killed by the Triarchal Menhirs count for the Code of Combat secondary since they don't have the Noble keyword but are part of a unit that does? My interpretation is no but I want to be sure.
Yes. Allow me to quote the Core Rules:
"While a unit has models with different keywords, it is considered to have all the keywords of all of its models"
Since Szarekh has the Noble keyword, the entire unit is considered to have the Noble keyword. Code of Combat does not require a Noble "model" to destroy an enemy unit - it requires a Noble "unit". Therefore, units destroyed by either the Menhirs or Szarekh will qualify for Code of Combat.
That's brilliant thanks. I don't have the BRB on hand but do you have the page number for this so I can make a note of it?
Mixzremixzd wrote: Quick question, would a unit killed by the Triarchal Menhirs count for the Code of Combat secondary since they don't have the Noble keyword but are part of a unit that does? My interpretation is no but I want to be sure.
Yes. Allow me to quote the Core Rules:
"While a unit has models with different keywords, it is considered to have all the keywords of all of its models"
Since Szarekh has the Noble keyword, the entire unit is considered to have the Noble keyword. Code of Combat does not require a Noble "model" to destroy an enemy unit - it requires a Noble "unit". Therefore, units destroyed by either the Menhirs or Szarekh will qualify for Code of Combat.
That's brilliant thanks. I don't have the BRB on hand but do you have the page number for this so I can make a note of it?
I would like to report that im very happy with conqueror/expansionists 3x9 scarabs and two spyders hiding behind obscuring terrain. The spyders reanimates one destroyed model every turn, while the scarabs score take and hold, and ancient machineries. The scarabs make more points than they give away.
For 600 pts total so far. For the last 400 points I've been considering adding 10 more warriors (or maybe 8 to make room for some gear options for the tomb blades) and a Ctan Transcendent.
I've been aiming for either a heavy shooting army with some melee for counter and screening or a mixed force approach.
For 600 pts total so far. For the last 400 points I've been considering adding 10 more warriors (or maybe 8 to make room for some gear options for the tomb blades) and a Ctan Transcendent.
I've been aiming for either a heavy shooting army with some melee for counter and screening or a mixed force approach.
Thoughts or any other suggestions?
Transcendent C'tan are probably a bit better once you get up to higher point values, as far as I understand one of the main things that make them good right now is Sky of Falling Stars, which needs lots of targets to be good, you're not going to find that at smaller point levels. Transcendent C'tan also cost an arm and a leg unless you're going to proxy or get one second-hand because they're only found as a bonus in the Obelisk kit.
Don't get invulnerable saves on Tomb Blades and don't get ignore cover on gauss Tomb Blades.
You could get 10 Warriors, 3 Scarabs, 1 Chronomancer and 1 Ghost Ark (magnetize it so it can be a Doomsday Ark as well).
Transcendent C'tan are probably a bit better once you get up to higher point values, as far as I understand one of the main things that make them good right now is Sky of Falling Stars, which needs lots of targets to be good, you're not going to find that at smaller point levels. Transcendent C'tan also cost an arm and a leg unless you're going to proxy or get one second-hand because they're only found as a bonus in the Obelisk kit.
Don't get invulnerable saves on Tomb Blades and don't get ignore cover on gauss Tomb Blades.
You could get 10 Warriors, 3 Scarabs, 1 Chronomancer and 1 Ghost Ark (magnetize it so it can be a Doomsday Ark as well).
Went to the hobby shop today to pick up a new model and lo and behold their only models in stock (necron-wise) were SK, tomb blades, doomstalkers, overlords, and spyders. It'll be at least a week til they get some more variety in stock. Which bums me out since they are the only hobby shop in my area besides GW and I do not feel like shelling out full retail prices. Fortunately, I spied a Lady Olynder kit on the shelf and picked her up as she'd make a nice proxy for a Ctan Transcendent. (Along with a pot of Fenrisian Grey)
So it looks like I had to do a detour on my list development.
Also, don’t buy a box of Warriors, buy the small starter box if you can instead. It costs $5 more than a box of Warriors but comes with an additional Necron Royal Warden, plus Space Marine Primaris Assault Intercessors and Bladeguard Lieutenant, and the box makes decent terrain.
Transcendent C'tan are probably a bit better once you get up to higher point values, as far as I understand one of the main things that make them good right now is Sky of Falling Stars, which needs lots of targets to be good, you're not going to find that at smaller point levels. Transcendent C'tan also cost an arm and a leg unless you're going to proxy or get one second-hand because they're only found as a bonus in the Obelisk kit.
Don't get invulnerable saves on Tomb Blades and don't get ignore cover on gauss Tomb Blades.
You could get 10 Warriors, 3 Scarabs, 1 Chronomancer and 1 Ghost Ark (magnetize it so it can be a Doomsday Ark as well).
Went to the hobby shop today to pick up a new model and lo and behold their only models in stock (necron-wise) were SK, tomb blades, doomstalkers, overlords, and spyders. It'll be at least a week til they get some more variety in stock. Which bums me out since they are the only hobby shop in my area besides GW and I do not feel like shelling out full retail prices. Fortunately, I spied a Lady Olynder kit on the shelf and picked her up as she'd make a nice proxy for a Ctan Transcendent. (Along with a pot of Fenrisian Grey)
So it looks like I had to do a detour on my list development.
This is interesting as I had the same thought to use her as a Nightbringer ctan proxy
Transcendent C'tan are probably a bit better once you get up to higher point values, as far as I understand one of the main things that make them good right now is Sky of Falling Stars, which needs lots of targets to be good, you're not going to find that at smaller point levels. Transcendent C'tan also cost an arm and a leg unless you're going to proxy or get one second-hand because they're only found as a bonus in the Obelisk kit.
Don't get invulnerable saves on Tomb Blades and don't get ignore cover on gauss Tomb Blades.
You could get 10 Warriors, 3 Scarabs, 1 Chronomancer and 1 Ghost Ark (magnetize it so it can be a Doomsday Ark as well).
Went to the hobby shop today to pick up a new model and lo and behold their only models in stock (necron-wise) were SK, tomb blades, doomstalkers, overlords, and spyders. It'll be at least a week til they get some more variety in stock. Which bums me out since they are the only hobby shop in my area besides GW and I do not feel like shelling out full retail prices. Fortunately, I spied a Lady Olynder kit on the shelf and picked her up as she'd make a nice proxy for a Ctan Transcendent. (Along with a pot of Fenrisian Grey)
So it looks like I had to do a detour on my list development.
This is interesting as I had the same thought to use her as a Nightbringer ctan proxy
AoS has quite a few model that make good proxies for Ctan. In fact a lot of the Death Army could be used as bits or some sort of stand-in for Necrons. Reikenor the Grimhailer would make for a pretty good Nightbringer..
The Kurnoth Hunters from the Slyaneth could make for a whole Ctan set with their different weapon options.
Incidentally, I came across these two models as possible Void Dragon proxies on Etsy.
Only issue with these two is their size. The first one goes from a 25mm base up to a 40mm base, while the second one goes from a 40mm base up to a 100mm base.. I'm kind of leaning towards the first one as my preference for Void Dragon but I'm not sure if he's big enough.
So I'm relatively new to Necrons, and was wondering how valuable Command Protocols are. I was formulating a list using 2 detachments each with a different dynasty, Mephrit for all my shooty stuff, and Novokh for the stabby stuff. While I gain potential access to more relics, statagems and warlord traits, I lose access to command protocols.
Is this a poor trade off, or worth it for having each detachment with a dynasty that suits the roles of the units in it?
Kcalehc wrote: So I'm relatively new to Necrons, and was wondering how valuable Command Protocols are. I was formulating a list using 2 detachments each with a different dynasty, Mephrit for all my shooty stuff, and Novokh for the stabby stuff. While I gain potential access to more relics, statagems and warlord traits, I lose access to command protocols.
Is this a poor trade off, or worth it for having each detachment with a dynasty that suits the roles of the units in it?
I don't really think multi-dynasty is ever a good idea, Command Protocols are nice, but not huge for the most part, it's just that the only unit that is married to a dynasty is mass Flayed Ones and Novokh, but they also want protocols IMO, so if you spam Flayed Ones you'll want mono-Novokh. Our remaining units are either as good or better when taken in the custom pre-game move + ObSec dynasty compared to competing dynasties, so you can just keep everything in the same custom dynasty and get Command Protocols for free. I don't think the Mephrit or Novokh relics, Strats or WL traits are amazing, you'll do fine without.
I almost always run two dynasties even though they are both custom -
Relentlessly Expansionist + Eternal Conquerors for Scarabs, troops and anything else I need to grab objectives....
and then
Relentlessly Expansionist + Rad Wreathed for my 12 Wraiths, Skorpehk Destroyers and others to help destroy things that are Toughness 4 and 5.
Command protocols are way to cumbersome and lack any real strength to be bothered witrh......I have enough to think about during a game to have to remember what I set this turn and whats close to a character.
Da-Rock wrote: I almost always run two dynasties even though they are both custom -
Relentlessly Expansionist + Eternal Conquerors for Scarabs, troops and anything else I need to grab objectives....
and then
Relentlessly Expansionist + Rad Wreathed for my 12 Wraiths, Skorpehk Destroyers and others to help destroy things that are Toughness 4 and 5.
Command protocols are way to cumbersome and lack any real strength to be bothered witrh......I have enough to think about during a game to have to remember what I set this turn and whats close to a character.
This isn't that far off how I like to run my combat units. Might try this my next game.
LDs are overpriced by ~10 points. Their stratagem has been nerfed. Reanimating them is almost impossible with 3W, a smart opponent will only kill 1 or 2 with a unit.
Yeah LD's are kinda meh. They arent unusable by any means but theyre bad enough where unless you have them already and love using them you have 0 reason to go get some.
Theyre one of the few units i own 0 of, since i started with this codex for necrons. And i have no interest to get any because...why?
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah LD's are kinda meh. They arent unusable by any means but theyre bad enough where unless you have them already and love using them you have 0 reason to go get some.
Theyre one of the few units i own 0 of, since i started with this codex for necrons. And i have no interest to get any because...why?
I like my LHD. They're just so much more darn consistent than a DDA or Doomstalker. (d6 shots/3+, 3+ d6 damage is just not good enough).
Easier to hide too.
Anyone have advice for a meme Triple C'tan list? I'm thinking Eternal/Expansionist combo, with lots of scarabs to screen them from psychic powers, and to actually play objectives, and a brick of warriors. Not optimal, but probably fun.
Da-Rock wrote: I almost always run two dynasties even though they are both custom -
Relentlessly Expansionist + Eternal Conquerors for Scarabs, troops and anything else I need to grab objectives....
and then
Relentlessly Expansionist + Rad Wreathed for my 12 Wraiths, Skorpehk Destroyers and others to help destroy things that are Toughness 4 and 5.
Command protocols are way to cumbersome and lack any real strength to be bothered witrh......I have enough to think about during a game to have to remember what I set this turn and whats close to a character.
Two dynasties as Patrol detachments?
Everything else would cost too many CP.
Add the Core keyword to the Keywords section of
the following datasheets: Canoptek Acanthrites
(see Imperial Armour Compendium); Canoptek
Reanimator; Canoptek Wraiths; Flayed Ones; Lokhust
Destroyers; Lokhust Heavy Destroyers; Ophydian
Destroyers; Skorpekh Destroyers; Triarch Praetorians
"Add the Core keyword to the Keywords section of
the following datasheets: Canoptek Acanthrites
(see Imperial Armour Compendium); Canoptek
Reanimator; Canoptek Wraiths; Flayed Ones; Lokhust
Destroyers; Lokhust Heavy Destroyers; Ophydian
Destroyers; Skorpekh Destroyers; Triarch Praetorians."
So, does that mean you kan put Skorpekh Destroyers into the transport plane, and use PRISMATIC DIMENSIONAL BREACH
to charge from reserve? :-) Or flayed once?
Legitimately, they just fixed one of the 2 biggest flaws in the necron army. One being lack of reliable anti-tank (unless it can somehow attack without moving our antitank is pretty lacking) Other being our codex is so massively limited by the Core keyword that if it isnt Core its probably garbage or meh.
There is SO MUCH STUFF that just opened up.
Also i wanna point out that for some reason they didnt specify that Destroyers take multiple slots in the Scythe lol....
Suddenly the urge to run 2 Scythes is strong (one will probably explode very fast the instant the idea of Skorp Destroyers just appearing out of nowhere becomes common knowledge)
Vineheart01 wrote: Legitimately, they just fixed one of the 2 biggest flaws in the necron army.
One being lack of reliable anti-tank (unless it can somehow attack without moving our antitank is pretty lacking)
Other being our codex is so massively limited by the Core keyword that if it isnt Core its probably garbage or meh.
There is SO MUCH STUFF that just opened up.
Also i wanna point out that for some reason they didnt specify that Destroyers take multiple slots in the Scythe lol....
Suddenly the urge to run 2 Scythes is strong (one will probably explode very fast the instant the idea of Skorp Destroyers just appearing out of nowhere becomes common knowledge)
NGL, the ability to slap heavy destroyers with MWBD now, since they're core, makes them hit on 2s, rerolling 1s. Thats a big efficiency buff.
Like 90% of my complaints about Skorps revolved around lack of core. THEORYCRAFTING BEGINS!!! The Skorps shall reign supreme!
It always bugged the crap out of me that Gravis Armor gets Core but Destroyers didnt...when theyre essentially the same thing (seriously, look at the stats, theyre the exact same thing and even do similar roles, though we dont have a flyboy destroyer that deepstrikes on its own)
i mean i already have 12 of them due to marine idio- er i mean friends buying those combo boxes and punting the necron half to me for cheap.
i painted 6 and assembled the other 6 but left them unpainted because i had 0 urge to use them.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’m not seeing that as a bad thing. Can someone who actually knows owt weigh in with just how much this shakes things up?
Not much as there is the trait ''Eternal Conquerors'' in Ancient Dynasties which gives units with this code the Objective Secured ability.
My Necron army is usually run with Eternal Conquerors and Relentlessly Expansionist.
What is useful is that Eternal Conquerors can now be replaced (without regret) by Rad-Wreathed (aura).
Necrons have gotten a lot of fine positions in tournaments, if you played through 8th then 9th edition isn't that bad.
I just did a ctrl+f on our units to look for synergy.
Overlord, Lord, Technomancer, Royal Warden, Silent King, Illuminor Szeras, Nemesor Zahndrekh, Anrakyr the Traveller, Monoliths and Night Scythes.
The biggest thing to me is Veil of Darkness getting buffed and My Will Be Done + Technomancer on various Destroyer units.
Skorpekhs don't really need Veil of Darkness, it's a lot more interesting on Lokhust Destroyers IMO, that was a standard play in 8th. If you want to veil an infantry unit you might as well go with Lychguard since they are just as likely to make the charge, but more durable in case of failure.
Silent King armies are going can be more diverse, but I am not convinced they'll be more powerful for it.
Flayed One spam lists are going to want to include Anrakyr, it'll make them better, but not by much. The +1 S Strat is going to be huge once in a while.
A Night Scythe transporting fast melee infantry like Ophydians or Skorpekhs makes it more interesting, 20 is a huge amount of capacity for expensive models, 3x5 Destroyers + 5 sacrificial Immortals.
Monoliths are still too clunky and vulnerable to melta/lances.
Hypermaterial ablator gets more targets, phylacterine hive fewer.
Implacable Conqueror becomes a lot better if you are running Skorpekhs or Wraiths.
Ancient Machineries can be done by Destroyers, whatever.
Vineheart01 wrote: Legitimately, they just fixed one of the 2 biggest flaws in the necron army.
One being lack of reliable anti-tank (unless it can somehow attack without moving our antitank is pretty lacking)
Other being our codex is so massively limited by the Core keyword that if it isnt Core its probably garbage or meh.
There is SO MUCH STUFF that just opened up.
Also i wanna point out that for some reason they didnt specify that Destroyers take multiple slots in the Scythe lol....
Suddenly the urge to run 2 Scythes is strong (one will probably explode very fast the instant the idea of Skorp Destroyers just appearing out of nowhere becomes common knowledge)
NGL, the ability to slap heavy destroyers with MWBD now, since they're core, makes them hit on 2s, rerolling 1s. Thats a big efficiency buff.
Szarekhan was my go to for wound rerolls so I did single models only, but this does tempt me to do a unit of 3 instead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oooh. Full reroll charges WLT, too...mmm.
Vineheart01 wrote: i mean i already have 12 of them due to marine idio- er i mean friends buying those combo boxes and punting the necron half to me for cheap.
i painted 6 and assembled the other 6 but left them unpainted because i had 0 urge to use them.
Certainly going to be taking a Phaeron more often now. Being able to give Wraiths and Destroyers +1 to hit is really good. Especially with Rad-Wreathed.
Darsath wrote: Certainly going to be taking a Phaeron more often now. Being able to give Wraiths and Destroyers +1 to hit is really good. Especially with Rad-Wreathed.
Oooh right! I had forgotten about that previously useless strat...tempting.
Yeah i only bothered with Phaeron before when i had 3+ warrior blobs and another core unit floating around (usually lychguard or tombblades)
It just didnt matter as beyond T1 usually the 2nd MWBD was slapped on a unit that was about dead so really didnt benefit that much, if there even was one in range at all.
Now, a larger bulk of the stuff i wanna use are core.
technically speaking theyre not in the scythe at all. That was an 8th edition thing to make it a 'normal' transport, it used to only deploy from reserves
Vineheart01 wrote: technically speaking theyre not in the scythe at all. That was an 8th edition thing to make it a 'normal' transport, it used to only deploy from reserves
Ackshually, it started out as a transport, then went to teleporting in 8th and went back to its transport origins in 9th. Good riddance, the writing on the teleportation rule was awful. Is 20 Destroyers too much? Yeah, it feels a little much, it should probably be 6 Destroyers, but I don't see anything wrong with it being able to transport some Destroyers.
iGuy91 wrote: This new update opens up tons of stuff. Paging through the dex quickly.
This is like a lovely little christmas gift.
Something interesting that was pointed out on FB group. Most of this applies to dynasty units. So triarch praetorians gain very, very little from the change. Disruption field stratagem for +1S is one of the few things they gained from core.
iGuy91 wrote: This new update opens up tons of stuff. Paging through the dex quickly.
This is like a lovely little christmas gift.
Something interesting that was pointed out on FB group. Most of this applies to dynasty units. So triarch praetorians gain very, very little from the change. Disruption field stratagem for +1S is one of the few things they gained from core.
Szeras can heal and improve them. Anrakyr can give them +1 to hit, an extra attack and allow them to re-roll charges. Using those two characters with Praetorians was something I loved in 8th.
Vineheart01 wrote: Scarabs getting core would be kinda bonkers...theyre already good enough to expect a points hyke eventually
Nah, they're basically fair. There are plenty of comp builds that don't spam them and they leak VP like a sieve now.
MannyMcCoconut wrote: Any thoughts on combining the new core changes with The ancient stir COA for a canoptek build?
Wraiths getting +1" from Ancient stir and +1" from relentless march. Would be a quick list.
Unless you play Ancients Stir as 7" pile in and consolidate then it's trash compared to a 6" pre-game move. The extra 1" helps the pre-game dynasty a lot more I think.
Vineheart01 wrote: technically speaking theyre not in the scythe at all. That was an 8th edition thing to make it a 'normal' transport, it used to only deploy from reserves
Ackshually, it started out as a transport, then went to teleporting in 8th and went back to its transport origins in 9th. Good riddance, the writing on the teleportation rule was awful. Is 20 Destroyers too much? Yeah, it feels a little much, it should probably be 6 Destroyers, but I don't see anything wrong with it being able to transport some Destroyers.
"Unlike the armoured carriers employed by other races, the Night Scythe does not have a transport compartment as such. Instead, it deploys its troops by means of a captive wormhole whose far end is anchored on a distant Tomb World."
It has literally never actually held any troops inside of it. It's only a "transport" as far as rules go. So arguing about how many models it can "fit" is pointless.
That update was really really needed and unexpected, I'm back in. Already thought Flayed Ones were good, now I think they might be the best unit in our codex
Im not spending 160 points on a model with random buffs. Plus, he has no inv, which is hilarious for a 160 pts. HQ model. Even a company commander for 35 pts. gets a 5++. I can almost get 5 more destroyers for those 160 points.
p5freak wrote: Im not spending 160 points on a model with random buffs. Plus, he has no inv, which is hilarious for a 160 pts. HQ model. Even a company commander for 35 pts. gets a 5++. I can almost get 5 more destroyers for those 160 points.
With the ability to permanently bring 2 big models back each turn I think he has a fine comparison to a Chief Apothecary. 110 pts + 1CP vs 160 pts. Bring 1 model back + healing + FNP aura vs bring 1 model back from 2 units + random buff each turn. Szeras is more durable, has a gun and is a lot scarier in melee. To me being Dynasty agnostic isn't a big deal, but for the people that want to run multi-Dynasty lists he has an additional upside over Technomancers, I do think Technomancers will be more popular though, bringing 2 models back is a bit niche and there is always the Stratagem in case you have a good opportunity once every 3 games.
gibbindefs wrote: "Unlike the armoured carriers employed by other races, the Night Scythe does not have a transport compartment as such. Instead, it deploys its troops by means of a captive wormhole whose far end is anchored on a distant Tomb World."
It has literally never actually held any troops inside of it. It's only a "transport" as far as rules go. So arguing about how many models it can "fit" is pointless.
It's more a question of how many units it can fit through its Wormhole in a turn, that answer being 6 units of 3 Destroyers and 2 Skorpekh Lords is new. I think some of us are just saying that if you want to run this legally you might want to do it sooner rather than later.
this FAQ is great, but perhaps not as great as it initially seems. Many of the new synergies it allows are not worth it at the end of the day.
Night Scythes / Prismatic Dimensional Breach are a prime example. 18 Skorpekhs and 2 Skorpekh lords in one plane is obviously a terrible idea. The new core units enable Necrons to bring various close combat units in with Scythes, but you could already do that with Lychguard, and nobody was. A min unit of skorpekhs to flip a backfield objective for 35pts less than a min unit of Lychguard is the only improvement here.
Anrakyr: +1 attack is a bigger buff the less attacks you start with. A 6th attack on a Skorpekh is nowhere near as big a deal as doubling attacks of a Novokh Warrior. Plus he's a bit slow.
Szeras: He's much better now that he can res destroyers, but so are normal technomancers. He costs the same as 2 Techs with cloaks, but they are faster, can be in two places at once,
and have access to Arkana.
Both of these guys still nave a niche in mixed dynasty lists though.
The Silent king: His only new target for the reroll to hit buff is Lokhusts, but they don't need it- MWBD is enough. The wound reroll aura will be nice if your Skorpekhs aren't killy enough already. His best buffing is still letting Tesla and Gauss fish for exploding 6's, or 5+rerolled overwatch.
The abilities that really do make use of this change are the basic ones: MWBD, Lords Will, Relentless March, Rites of Reanimation, Adaptive Strategy, and the Veil of Darkness.
I think the best lists will continue to be Eternal Expansionists with Lychguard, Skorpekhs, Wraith, and Scarabs. But there may be extra Overlords and Technomancers thrown in. Veiling MWBD + Extermination Protocols Lokhusts may become a thing, but they still seem a little pricey.
TL,DR: The fanciest uses of the changes to core probably aren't worth it. It's a nice buff for the basic HQs that will boost, but not dramatically alter, the most competitive lists.
yeah im running into the usual issue of i hate the command phase....
Almost everything i can think of utilizing Core falls flat because it happens after the command phase. God i hate the command phase....virtually everything in there needs to be at the end of movement...its so dumb that if an Overlord gets out of a transport he cant MWBD anybody that turn.
Best i can think of is to kinda cheese the flayed ones with the scythe. Scythe flies behind the enemy T2 like 5" away from something and dumps 20 Flayed Ones for 1cp that were in reserves. Guaranteed charge, and also major panic inducing lol. Ideally some skorps in the transport but then they wont see any fighting till T3 and theres a pretty good chance the scythe will blow up before they get out.
Prismatic Dimensional Breach just requires to much investment into something too fragile to rely on. It's minimum 145pts + 1 CP + the CP required to reserve whatever you want to bring out. The more you invest, the more likely your opponent is to try and pop the Scythe turn 1 (or turn 2 if you go 2nd).
Maybe you could put 3 Skorpekhs in reserve along with two units of Cryptothralls that you were reserving anyway to ROD. Total power level is 9 so it's still only 1 CP. Then turn 2 you can use PDB on the Skorps to flip someones home objective/ assassinate a character/ pick on a shooty unit. It's a minimal investment and might not attract as much of your opponents attention.
A big part of the problem with PDB is that Necrons don't really need transports, so you have to force a 145pt unit into your list that you don't really want. It might be a nice option to have if Scythes were a common feature of lists to begin with.
HQ:
90 - Chronomancer - Entropic Lance, Veil of Darkness
110 - Technomancer - Canoptek Cloak, Fail-Safe Overcharger
95 - Overlord - Staff of Light, Hand of the Phaeron [-2CP], Warlord, Thrall of the Silent King
Heavy Support
170 - Doomsday Ark
180 - Lokhust Heavy Destroyers - (3) Gauss Destructors
180 - Lokhust Heavy Destroyers - (3) Gauss Destructors
2000/2000 pts, 10 CP
Basic Game Plan:
Overlord and Hypermaterial Ablator Technomancer sit back with DDA and LHDs, overlord gives both MWBD (hitting on 2s rerolling ones), and technomancer can rez destroyers and heal DDA, and will give cover to strong backline firepower
Chronomancer is to Veil in Skorpekhs, and give reroll charges
Technomancer with overcharger is to go with Wraiths, strong counter charge or just charge forward, techno can rez the wraiths and is giving +1 attack
Lychguard for durable holding the middle of the board
Immortals are for holding objectives and doing actions
Cryptothralls are for actions, flayed ones can DS and ROD or charge and flip objectives
Nihilakh for ObSec and extra durability on the backline, also strat for shoot and actions (Immortals, LHDs), but could easily do Obsec and pregame move instead
General plan is Purge the Vermin, Banners, + kill secondary by opponent or mission specific. ROD and stranglehold could easily be subbed in if opponent will be charging forward quickly (Drukhari, White Scars, etc). List could be tweaked to make the backfield shooting TTL units.
Concerns: Not enough units, I feel the list is killy and does both secondary and primary well, but trading is very poor as most units are large and expensive. Making the Wraiths and Skorpekhs 2 units of 3 could work, but then won't be as strong for Veil and the overcharger, so I don't think it's worth changing. Also with this list Banners is probably better than ROD, so crypothralls and flayed ones may be dead weight, so maybe a hexmark with gauntlet could sub in for extra shooting. I also originally had a Triarch Stalker instead of the Lychguard, but thought the obj holding would be more worth it than sometimes giving the DDA rerolls.
I don't think you can get many more units than what you've got, you're already very heavily in the MSU department. So many that I don't see why you would need the Nihilakh Stratagem.
I am not sure why Flayed Ones are in if you're not planning on doing Octarius Data.
I feel like Wraiths need MWBD the most, they get 33% more hits where most other units get 25% (yes even Heavy Destroyers only get 25%). Maybe I am starting to think of a different list here but Hand of the Phaeron for 2 units Heavy Destroyers seems like overkill.
DDAs to enable defensive playstyle with expansionist for a bit of repositioning to gain LOS without moving T1, Technomancer and Immortals for raising banners. Fail-safe Overcharger + MWBD + Lord's Will for 1x*5/4*4/3*7/6=1,94x damage multiplier on a unit of Wraiths each turn, you can play defensively and just trade out a unit of obscenely buffed-up Wraiths each turn.
Nihilakh is just a fluff dynasty I think, I think you should try out both and tell us if you prefer Nihilakh. What's your terrain like?
Slipped my mind that Characters can Raise Banners, because of that I agree, Nihilakh probaby isn't better. The defensive buff it provides is minimal anyways. So you can probably do more with the pregame move with this list.
Flayed Ones are there for redundancy, some missions and lists won't be great for banners, (Battle Lines, Scouring) so ROD can be switched to easily. However they won't do as much in a regular match, so you could replace them with say a Hexmark
I feel that Necrons lack consistent Anti-Tank and the overlord ensures the shots are hitting, the wraiths will probably do well with 30 attacks anyways. If the overlord was changed to a CCB it could be flexed to either the wraiths or the LHDs depending on the matchup. Would need to drop something (flayed ones) to fit the switch in.
Your list is definitely moving to a different one haha but I do like it, seems simple and effective.
Wraiths can theoretically put some good damage on T7 vehicles with the Disruption Fields Stratagem on top of Lord's Will, MWBD and Overcharger. Personally, I'm confident in my DDA rolls against T8 units and Wraiths can pull off a few wounds in a pinch.
Another option would be going ham on melee Destroyers with a Lokhust Lord and using MWBD+Plasmacyte on them with the option of Disruption Fields you could get Ophydian Destroyers to S6, with the +2 from the big weapons they can take down a Knight in one fell swoop. -1 to hit in melee is actually pretty cool against CSM now, it's a niche benefit but it's a 40% damage reduction instead of 25%.
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah im running into the usual issue of i hate the command phase....
Almost everything i can think of utilizing Core falls flat because it happens after the command phase. God i hate the command phase....virtually everything in there needs to be at the end of movement...its so dumb that if an Overlord gets out of a transport he cant MWBD anybody that turn.
Best i can think of is to kinda cheese the flayed ones with the scythe. Scythe flies behind the enemy T2 like 5" away from something and dumps 20 Flayed Ones for 1cp that were in reserves. Guaranteed charge, and also major panic inducing lol. Ideally some skorps in the transport but then they wont see any fighting till T3 and theres a pretty good chance the scythe will blow up before they get out.
For 2 cp you can put scythe in reserve. Cp hungry but no blowing up before and easier to get to right spot than with 20" movement and 90 degree pivot
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah im running into the usual issue of i hate the command phase....
Almost everything i can think of utilizing Core falls flat because it happens after the command phase. God i hate the command phase....virtually everything in there needs to be at the end of movement...its so dumb that if an Overlord gets out of a transport he cant MWBD anybody that turn.
Best i can think of is to kinda cheese the flayed ones with the scythe. Scythe flies behind the enemy T2 like 5" away from something and dumps 20 Flayed Ones for 1cp that were in reserves. Guaranteed charge, and also major panic inducing lol. Ideally some skorps in the transport but then they wont see any fighting till T3 and theres a pretty good chance the scythe will blow up before they get out.
For 2 cp you can put scythe in reserve. Cp hungry but no blowing up before and easier to get to right spot than with 20" movement and 90 degree pivot
So thats 2CP to put the flayed ones in strategic reserve, 2CP to put the scythe in strategic reserve, and 1CP to teleport them in. Thats a total of "only" 5CP for one unit.
Yeah, its too much cp. Really stupid that strategic reserves cost cp.
This edition was supposed to be "Everyone gets more cp!" and they across the board made it even more limited.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah, its too much cp. Really stupid that strategic reserves cost cp.
This edition was supposed to be "Everyone gets more cp!" and they across the board made it even more limited.
It's not more limited, everyone that didn't use CP batteries do get more CP and strategic reserves is fine as is. You're not supposed to put Night Scythes into reserves, they're transports, you don't put Rhinos into reserves either. If you want the breach to work then take 2 Night Scythes, put some reasonable units inside them, if the Night Scythes get destroyed then just arrive normally with your reserved unit.
Putting 1 Night Scythe (8PL) + 6 Skorpekhs (10PL) into reserves costs 2CP. You're never paying more than 1CP to put a Night Scythe into reserves, 0 if you've got 10, 11, 20, 21, 30 or 31 PL in reserves already.
The Overlord supports the Gauss Immortals, the Chronomancer supports the Triarch Praetorians (Honourable Combatant is just for a laugh, as it literally triples his attacks with a D3 weapon), the Technomancer supports the Destroyers and the CCB supports the Wraiths.
As I said, I've been very much out of the loop with regard to necrons and the meta in general, so does this look at all viable?
Also, are Destroyer Lords still rather pointless? I was contemplating taking one in place of the Overlord but they seem far less flexible (especially with the changes to Core) and it didn't seem to add a whole lot.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah, its too much cp. Really stupid that strategic reserves cost cp.
This edition was supposed to be "Everyone gets more cp!" and they across the board made it even more limited.
It's not more limited, everyone that didn't use CP batteries do get more CP and strategic reserves is fine as is. You're not supposed to put Night Scythes into reserves, they're transports, you don't put Rhinos into reserves either. If you want the breach to work then take 2 Night Scythes, put some reasonable units inside them, if the Night Scythes get destroyed then just arrive normally with your reserved unit.
Putting 1 Night Scythe (8PL) + 6 Skorpekhs (10PL) into reserves costs 2CP. You're never paying more than 1CP to put a Night Scythe into reserves, 0 if you've got 10, 11, 20, 21, 30 or 31 PL in reserves already.
Scythe + 15 flayed ones is 2CP to put them into strategic reserves (PL 8+9=17), plus 1CP to teleport them in, 3CP total. 20 flayed ones (PL 8+12=20) would be 4CP total. You could use the deceiver to place three units in strategic reserves for free.
Well, I'm not enthusiastic about the Necron codex although the latest update goes in the right direction.
I played Necrons in local tourneys in the 6th and 7th edition with good success, e.g. 3x5 Wraiths were nearly indestructable.
I've also seen successful Necrons in editions prior the 6th one.
But in the new edition, Necrons are not found at top tables.
No capable army lists in sight. No psychic protection (as always) but this can hurt a lot.
I'm toying with the idea to shelf them for future updates, play GK until the new Eldar codex comes out ...
All of these gimmick teleportation and 6" charge ideas are so tiring hearing about a year after the Codex dropped. You do not need to do them and they will always be a waste of points and CP.
With the average board sizes and the mission layouts you're better off footslogging rather than trying to play 4D chess and work out esoteric bs with nightscythes. Just walk up the board and be in combat turn 2 while having all of your buffs. Even 5" move Death Guard can manage it so pre-game moving Flayed Ones, Wraiths and Skorpekhs that are also getting +2" move in turn 1 should have no issues.
I mean, a veil and a chronomancer for the charge re-rolls have a solid chance of getting any unit you want into combat first turn. My mate used it to get a chunky unit of Skopechs into combat first turn. Had to spend my entire army to shift them and the lord. A solid way to get control of the early game.
Bosskelot wrote: All of these gimmick teleportation and 6" charge ideas are so tiring hearing about a year after the Codex dropped. You do not need to do them and they will always be a waste of points and CP.
With the average board sizes and the mission layouts you're better off footslogging rather than trying to play 4D chess and work out esoteric bs with nightscythes. Just walk up the board and be in combat turn 2 while having all of your buffs. Even 5" move Death Guard can manage it so pre-game moving Flayed Ones, Wraiths and Skorpekhs that are also getting +2" move in turn 1 should have no issues.
That's nice if you have opponent that lets you do what you want without doing anything. Most play vs opponents that try to win though.
Blndmage wrote: Any chance the Monolith could somehow make a comeback with the new changes?
None, the Eternity Gate ability is useless, using Breach on a melee unit is not superior to reaper Warriors. Laser Chickens are still scary efficient against Monoliths and replacing Drukhari with TS and GK doesn't help Monoliths, not to mention the possibility of a Ravager resurgence. Most importantly terrain suggestions have not changed and most tournaments use too much terrain for Monoliths to make a comeback. If you play in a meta with less obnoxious terrain and nobody spams melta or D3+3 damage weapons then it's okay, but the balance dataslate does not change enough.
Bosskelot wrote: All of these gimmick teleportation and 6" charge ideas are so tiring hearing about a year after the Codex dropped. You do not need to do them and they will always be a waste of points and CP.
With the average board sizes and the mission layouts you're better off footslogging rather than trying to play 4D chess and work out esoteric bs with nightscythes. Just walk up the board and be in combat turn 2 while having all of your buffs. Even 5" move Death Guard can manage it so pre-game moving Flayed Ones, Wraiths and Skorpekhs that are also getting +2" move in turn 1 should have no issues.
That's nice if you have opponent that lets you do what you want without doing anything. Most play vs opponents that try to win though.
The exact same comment applies to trying to Breach a unit in via a Night Scythe, your Night Scythe can get gunned down or you can get screened out of outflanking anywhere interesting with your Night Scythe. Being dismissive of Night Scythes makes sense, we still haven't seen one top 4 in 9th and I have never heard of anyone having great results with one, Night Scythes being viable is entirely theoretical, Skorpekhs, Wraiths and Lychguard have worked for many posters in this thread and have made top 4 appearances.
Bosskelot wrote: All of these gimmick teleportation and 6" charge ideas are so tiring hearing about a year after the Codex dropped. You do not need to do them and they will always be a waste of points and CP.
With the average board sizes and the mission layouts you're better off footslogging rather than trying to play 4D chess and work out esoteric bs with nightscythes. Just walk up the board and be in combat turn 2 while having all of your buffs. Even 5" move Death Guard can manage it so pre-game moving Flayed Ones, Wraiths and Skorpekhs that are also getting +2" move in turn 1 should have no issues.
That's nice if you have opponent that lets you do what you want without doing anything. Most play vs opponents that try to win though.
I play 40k pretty much exclusively competitively. So, sorry, I am playing vs opponents who are trying to win.
Even before the core changes, as vict0988 says, footslogging Skorpekhs, Wraiths and Lychguard made regular appearances in top Necron lists. In my last game vs Tsons my Skorpekhs were in combat on turn 2 with their full suite of buffs up.
If you play on terrible boards with little obscuring or LOS-blocking then the Night Scythe potentially has a niche. But even then how is it going to survive 1 round of shooting vs any top lists? You really expect it to stand up to DW/IH dread spam? 5 NDK's? 20 Scarab Terminators and 2 Volcons?
What are peoples thoughts on Lokhust Destroyers now? Specifically the non heavy version.
I think they are the unit that has gained the most from the Core update, but I'm not sure it's enough to make them worth it.
The most important gain is the ability to use the Veil of Darkness on them to go instantly from safely hidden, to an optimum firing position. MWBD gets them to 2's to hit rerolling 1's, which might make their reroll wounds strat worth the 2CP. They can also benefit from a Technomancers Hypermaterial Ablator and Rites of reanimation to help survive any retaliation.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: What are peoples thoughts on Lokhust Destroyers now? Specifically the non heavy version.
I think they are the unit that has gained the most from the Core update, but I'm not sure it's enough to make them worth it.
The most important gain is the ability to use the Veil of Darkness on them to go instantly from safely hidden, to an optimum firing position. MWBD gets them to 2's to hit rerolling 1's, which might make their reroll wounds strat worth the 2CP. They can also benefit from a Technomancers Hypermaterial Ablator and Rites of reanimation to help survive any retaliation.
If you put a LHD in the unit and give them the ablator, they're pretty tough. You can tank 3 damage hits on the LHD to cost them a lot of efficiency, and then just res him again when he dies with a technomancer. I think with MWBD access again and the LHD embedded, Lokhust are a bit interesting.
The bonus protection against D3 weapons is nice, although it does mean that their shooting is a little less specialised. Bringing a 60pt model back with a technomancer will feel extra naughty!
I think it's got to be the Gauss Destructor on LHD. Single model units of them were great before the core buff, and now bigger units may be worth it too.
The Destroyer lord(s) look less apealing after this update, simply because the other HQs got a buff while they stayed the same. The extermination Protocols strat makes their aura redundant for Lokhusts too.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: What are peoples thoughts on Lokhust Destroyers now? Specifically the non heavy version.
Still too expensive, not enough resilience. They need a lot of support. A chronomancer and a technomancer to give them 5++ and raise one from the dead, or a reanimator, and MWBD to give them +1 to hit. Thats almost doubling the cost of the unit. 300 points for 6 LDs, plus 80+80+100 for technomancer (or reanimator), chronomancer, overlord. And if you want to be able to shoot after falling back you need a royal warden for 75.
6 LD + 1 LHD cannot even kill one redemptor dreadnought. You would need stratagems to do that.
I think it's got to be the Gauss Destructor on LHD. Single model units of them were great before the core buff, and now bigger units may be worth it too.
The Destroyer lord(s) look less apealing after this update, simply because the other HQs got a buff while they stayed the same. The extermination Protocols strat makes their aura redundant for Lokhusts too.
Yeah, that was my thought as well. I was really hoping to be wrong, though.
Guess my favourite Necron HQ will be spending another edition on the shelf.
Still too expensive, not enough resilience. They need a lot of support. A chronomancer and a technomancer to give them 5++ and raise one from the dead, or a reanimator, and MWBD to give them +1 to hit. Thats almost doubling the cost of the unit. 300 points for 6 LDs, plus 80+80+100 for technomancer (or reanimator), chronomancer, overlord. And if you want to be able to shoot after falling back you need a royal warden for 75.
6 LD + 1 LHD cannot even kill one redemptor dreadnought. You would need stratagems to do that.
Isn't that a bit excessive, though?
Surely Destroyers don't need a Technomancer *and* a Chronomancer *and* an Overlord? I'd think just a Technomancer with the Veil would be sufficient.
i've been trying to avoid triplestacking HQ buffs because that tends to lead to a "death ball" In old 40k, that would have been fine since tabling meant objectives were pointless. Not the case in 9th, if you dont play the objective you are gonna lose most of the time. So that deathball wont score other than killing secondaries. Primary can outpace the 2 killing objectives you got really easily.
Lokhusts are probbaly best with just a techno and a chrono OR overlord, but not both. Also note that a techno can also be buffing a Doomstalker or two at the same time. In the past it wasnt very favorable to do that because thats an HQ for parkinglot duty, paying for a rule that he never uses.. Now he's pulling double or even triple duty AND theres something in front of the doomstalkers to deter charging because of the free overwatch.
5++ for defense, or 2+ to hit. Take your pick, not both. Preferebly for me the 2+ to hit because i really want that Chrono buff on stuff that might be charging or has crap defense in the first place.
That's the issue that still lies at the core (heh) of the army despite the changes.
Yes, the core keyword changes are fantastic, but so much of the army is still very expensive points-wise that in order to really see the effects you'll have to invest too much into them, unless you're already running very character heavy builds.
Points drops in MFM would go a long way into really helping a lot of the army click and really come into its own finally.
Surely Destroyers don't need a Technomancer *and* a Chronomancer *and* an Overlord? I'd think just a Technomancer with the Veil would be sufficient.
They need them if you want them to survive, and not get blasted from the table T2. And if you want to kill something. Destroyers with a technomancer would only barely scratch a redemptor dread. And marines have three of those. The return fire from those redemptors would easily wipe out your destroyers.
Surely Destroyers don't need a Technomancer *and* a Chronomancer *and* an Overlord? I'd think just a Technomancer with the Veil would be sufficient.
They need them if you want them to survive, and not get blasted from the table T2. And if you want to kill something. Destroyers with a technomancer would only barely scratch a redemptor dread. And marines have three of those. The return fire from those redemptors would easily wipe out your destroyers.
Obviously S6 D3 damage shots are not great vs. T7 -1 damage, you're picking one of the worst things to put them against, but even then, a full unit of 6 LD + 1 LHD with MWBD + EP does ~15 wounds to a Redemptor.
Adding on the cost of all the HQs that can buff them is never particularly helpful either. Your army will almost certainly have an Overlord, (possibly a Phaeron now) the destroyers will cost you one of your MWBD uses. It's not unreasonable to add most of the cost of a veil caddy to the unit though.
I have now played both with and against a unit of 6 Lokhusts + 1 Heavy Lokhust supported by a Technomancer with a Veil ( I added the Hypermaterial Ablator to mine). They are quite terrifying to face. The damage output can be massive, it's hard to avoid due to the Veil + 24" range, and they can be really hard to shift - if they have veiled sensibly and deleted one unit it can be hard to counter-attack. If you don't wipe the unit out that Technomancer is popping out 50-60pts of models a turn.
All that being said, they cost somewhere between the price of a C'tan and The Silent King, so I'm not sold on them just yet.
Not that the skorpehks dont look cool, but I never understood why they didnt just make a melee profile for floaty destroyers.
Imagine a squad of 9 flying foward with a destroyer lord and sporting one of the following 2 weapons:
Galvanic Blades- These deadly blades made of the Necrons unique living medal are suffused with a galvanic pulse and paired for deadly effect.
12" Pistol 2 str5 - 1 Every unmodified hit roll of a 6 inflicts 2 additional hits.
- S+1 AP-3 1 Each time you attack using these weapons you get an additional 3 attacks.
Gausse Bhuge- This massive 2 handed polearm has an extremely potent Gausse feild at the end that acts as a disentigration blade.
- S+4 AP-2 3 Each time you attack using these weapons you gain an additional attack for each point of toughness your opponent has over 5
Not that the skorpehks dont look cool, but I never understood why they didnt just make a melee profile for floaty destroyers.
Imagine a squad of 9 flying foward with a destroyer lord and sporting one of the following 2 weapons:
Galvanic Blades- These deadly blades made of the Necrons unique living medal are suffused with a galvanic pulse and paired for deadly effect.
12" Pistol 2 str5 - 1 Every unmodified hit roll of a 6 inflicts 2 additional hits.
- S+1 AP-3 1 Each time you attack using these weapons you get an additional 3 attacks.
Gausse Bhuge- This massive 2 handed polearm has an extremely potent Gausse feild at the end that acts as a disentigration blade.
- S+4 AP-2 3 Each time you attack using these weapons you gain an additional attack for each point of toughness your opponent has over 5
dewd11 wrote: Has anyone had a chance to try out the Newcrons with the core changes? Any stand out units?
I've had several games. Lokhust Destroyers have gone from zero to (possibly still overpriced) hero. A unit of 7 with a veil is a real headache for opponents.
Wraith are probably the next most improved unit as they can now actually kill stuff with MWBD and Disruption Fields, which makes a Fail Safe Overcharger more viable.
Anything that buffs core has improved, with Tehnomancers and Overlords being the most improved. The hand of the Phearon strat, and Thrall of The Silent King warlord trait are now much more appealing.
dewd11 wrote: Has anyone had a chance to try out the Newcrons with the core changes? Any stand out units?
I've had several games. Lokhust Destroyers have gone from zero to (possibly still overpriced) hero. A unit of 7 with a veil is a real headache for opponents.
Wraith are probably the next most improved unit as they can now actually kill stuff with MWBD and Disruption Fields, which makes a Fail Safe Overcharger more viable.
Anything that buffs core has improved, with Tehnomancers and Overlords being the most improved. The hand of the Phearon strat, and Thrall of The Silent King warlord trait are now much more appealing.
dewd11 wrote: Has anyone had a chance to try out the Newcrons with the core changes? Any stand out units?
I've had several games. Lokhust Destroyers have gone from zero to (possibly still overpriced) hero. A unit of 7 with a veil is a real headache for opponents.
Wraith are probably the next most improved unit as they can now actually kill stuff with MWBD and Disruption Fields, which makes a Fail Safe Overcharger more viable.
Anything that buffs core has improved, with Tehnomancers and Overlords being the most improved. The hand of the Phearon strat, and Thrall of The Silent King warlord trait are now much more appealing.
dewd11 wrote: Has anyone had a chance to try out the Newcrons with the core changes? Any stand out units?
I've had several games. Lokhust Destroyers have gone from zero to (possibly still overpriced) hero. A unit of 7 with a veil is a real headache for opponents.
Wraith are probably the next most improved unit as they can now actually kill stuff with MWBD and Disruption Fields, which makes a Fail Safe Overcharger more viable.
Anything that buffs core has improved, with Tehnomancers and Overlords being the most improved. The hand of the Phearon strat, and Thrall of The Silent King warlord trait are now much more appealing.
Do the lokhusts just get wiped after?
Why would they get wiped?
360 points of 22 T5 3+ wounds that will shoot again next turn. So either your opponent is wise enough to invest assets in wiping them or isn't going to be much of a challenge in the first place.
360 points of 22 T5 3+ wounds that will shoot again next turn. So either your opponent is wise enough to invest assets in wiping them or isn't going to be much of a challenge in the first place.
It depends what else is going on. I don't think I've had them fully wiped immediately after their 1st volley. I've had them taken down to 2-3 models that then slink off to find a technomancer without having much more impact on the game. I've had them get 2 full rounds of shooting off, then get wiped. And I've had them survive at full strength in games that were either very cagey, or I won big.
dewd11 wrote: Has anyone had a chance to try out the Newcrons with the core changes? Any stand out units?
I've had several games. Lokhust Destroyers have gone from zero to (possibly still overpriced) hero. A unit of 7 with a veil is a real headache for opponents.
Wraith are probably the next most improved unit as they can now actually kill stuff with MWBD and Disruption Fields, which makes a Fail Safe Overcharger more viable.
Anything that buffs core has improved, with Tehnomancers and Overlords being the most improved. The hand of the Phearon strat, and Thrall of The Silent King warlord trait are now much more appealing.
Do the lokhusts just get wiped after?
Why would they get wiped?
360 points of 22 T5 3+ wounds that will shoot again next turn. So either your opponent is wise enough to invest assets in wiping them or isn't going to be much of a challenge in the first place.
Ah, I see. So this is one of those games where:
We've apparently forgotten to put terrain on the table.
The Necron player has neglected to invest in dealing with those anti-Lockhurst units who're close enough to wipe the unit.
And all the dice have run hot & cold as needed to for the wipe to occur.
Ah, I see. So this is one of those games where:
We've apparently forgotten to put terrain on the table.
The Necron player has neglected to invest in dealing with those anti-Lockhurst units who're close enough to wipe the unit.
And all the dice have run hot & cold as needed to for the wipe to occur.
No, just a basic understanding of how line of sight, range and trading work in 40k is required. Although, it depends on the quality of opposition as stated. Perhaps I'm too used to high quality opponents. I could see them beating down in casual play quite well.
I'm used to playing the 445 point 10 Time Scarab Occult terminators build with 30 wounds, T4, -1 to hit, -1 to damage against shooting if required, a 1+ against 1 damage weapons, and a 2+/4++ against everything else that can res a model per turn, so much better defensive stats, they also have slightly better damage output overall into a mixture of targets, way better melee and slightly better threat range and the back pocket teleport just the same as the destroyers. My experience is they can still fold like paper to many opponents.
I'm used to playing the 445 point 10 Time Scarab Occult terminators build with 30 wounds, T4, -1 to hit, -1 to damage against shooting if required, a 1+ against 1 damage weapons, and a 2+/4++ against everything else that can res a model per turn, so much better defensive stats, they also have slightly better damage output overall into a mixture of targets, way better melee and slightly better threat range and the back pocket teleport just the same as the destroyers. My experience is they can still fold like paper to many opponents.
Funnily enough 3 of my recent games were against Tsons featuring said Scarab blob. Destroyers are nowhere near as good as them, but I don't have that kind of Scarab in my codex.
Im excited to run two units of 7 lokhust destroyers and a unit of 3 lokhust heavy destroyers. The technomancer with cloak seems a much better option now. Resing 1 or two with strat a turn and healing D3 wounds. Catacomb command barge with relic orb to pop on a heavily depleted unit. Excited for the new changes. Still hope we get some points drops.
Having taken up Imperium mag subscription I find myself with an abundance of Necrons. Initially I planned to sell these on, however I have VERY quickly taken a liking having painted a few and now find myself with yet another 40k army
For those who don't know what imperium entails, at this point, i currently have the following.
1 overlord
1 royal warden
20 Warriors (10 more to come with Imperium at some stage)
6 Scarab swarms (3 more on the way)
6 Skorpekh destroyers
I'm just wondering what direction to take next? Having played Eldar the thing standing out to me is the Necron's lack of movement potential so I am tempted by Canoptek Wraiths or Tomb Blades to bring some speed to the list.
Based on what I currently have I also note a lack of anti-tank
Having taken up Imperium mag subscription I find myself with an abundance of Necrons. Initially I planned to sell these on, however I have VERY quickly taken a liking having painted a few and now find myself with yet another 40k army
For those who don't know what imperium entails, at this point, i currently have the following.
1 overlord
1 royal warden
20 Warriors (10 more to come with Imperium at some stage)
6 Scarab swarms (3 more on the way)
6 Skorpekh destroyers
I'm just wondering what direction to take next? Having played Eldar the thing standing out to me is the Necron's lack of movement potential so I am tempted by Canoptek Wraiths or Tomb Blades to bring some speed to the list.
Based on what I currently have I also note a lack of anti-tank
Interested to get your views though!
Thanks all
Lokhust Heavy Destroyers for some anti-vehicle is probably a good idea. If you have another army you are happy to play then you should wait for Chapter Approved, Doomscythes might come back as the most cost-effective anti-vehicle option for Necrons. Lokhust Heavy Destroyers inability to do Octarius Data in the new mission set is going to hurt them. Tomb Blades are a nightmare to assemble and they have a terrible $ to pts conversion rate.
Dunno if everyone saw it, but Necrons were the lowest performing army overall at the GWGT this last week. Not sure what the sample size was, but the only real *outliers* were Drukhari still being OP, and Necrons underperforming.
Seems like the dex still needs some love/point drops.
p5freak wrote: Yes, i saw it. Adding CORE to some units is a small boost, but it will not make us medium/top tier. We need point drops.
In terms of points, one of the things I often look at are Crypteks. Their rules imply you're supposed to be taking multiples of them but their cost is prohibitive. Especially for models with 1 attack and (in all but one case) only a 4+ armour save and no invulnerable or FNP.
It's a similar issue with the Necron Lord, except that it's even worse because it's an expensive melee HQ with no invulnerable save.
I miss the Royal Court from 5th edition (I also miss Destroyer Lords not playing second-fiddle to Overlords but I guess those days are long behind us).
p5freak wrote: Yes, i saw it. Adding CORE to some units is a small boost, but it will not make us medium/top tier. We need point drops.
That’s the point: The FAQ was really a good update in terms of making Necrons more fun to play as it allowed tons of new interactions. But while it was an overall improvement to Necrons, it barely boosted their performance in terms of competetive play. A point drop could help here but I think we will have to wait some months until it drops
p5freak wrote: Yes, i saw it. Adding CORE to some units is a small boost, but it will not make us medium/top tier. We need point drops.
That’s the point: The FAQ was really a good update in terms of making Necrons more fun to play as it allowed tons of new interactions. But while it was an overall improvement to Necrons, it barely boosted their performance in terms of competetive play. A point drop could help here but I think we will have to wait some months until it drops
The strength of Necrons in the previous incarnation of the codex was based on the ''Decurion'' providing a resilient Necron force to reckon with.
Something like ''Decurion'' would help to improve Necrons beyond any point reduction.
Well that's what it boils down to. Either they make necrons way more resilient, or they reduce cost so we can bring more units to retain table presence as we take casualties. The resilience thing has shown (specifically with the Decurion) that they become boring and frustrating to play against, so point drops are the best option imo.
p5freak wrote: Yes, i saw it. Adding CORE to some units is a small boost, but it will not make us medium/top tier. We need point drops.
That’s the point: The FAQ was really a good update in terms of making Necrons more fun to play as it allowed tons of new interactions. But while it was an overall improvement to Necrons, it barely boosted their performance in terms of competetive play. A point drop could help here but I think we will have to wait some months until it drops
Point adjustments are done twice a year. The next adjustment is supposed to happen in january, when chapter approved is coming out.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: The Lokhust lord perplexes me.
Its no longer the beat stick option because that role is taken by the Skorpekh Lord, but it still has its melee options and no real ranged option.
I guess I have to swap out the scythe for a staff of light now, because paying extra for a build that seems redundant is pointless.
Maybe they'll update the destroyer lord to be shootier or something, idk.
Goonhammer said he liked the Lokhust Lord because he wields the Voltaic Staff well.
I think he means the ability to reroll 1s is stronger with the Voltaic Staff because you get more 6s.
The Overlord treats a [2] as 1 hit and the Lokhust lord treats a [1] as 1/6*3+3/6*1 = 1
= the same
for Staff of Light the Overlord hits better, while Lokhust Lord wounds better.
I'm only new to Necrons and admittedly haven't played a single game yet, but the one thing i'm noticing a serious lack of in comparison to other 9th ed armies is invun saves.
There are a lot of units that can be taken out without anything stopping it by a single lascannon shot. Prime example, heavy lokhust destroyers.
Any tips on keeping things such as this alive? As an Eldar player first and foremost I would rely on things like Fire and Fade for this but I'm struggling with Crons.
Crafter91 wrote: I'm only new to Necrons and admittedly haven't played a single game yet, but the one thing i'm noticing a serious lack of in comparison to other 9th ed armies is invun saves.
There are a lot of units that can be taken out without anything stopping it by a single lascannon shot. Prime example, heavy lokhust destroyers.
Any tips on keeping things such as this alive? As an Eldar player first and foremost I would rely on things like Fire and Fade for this but I'm struggling with Crons.
Just take Lychguard with sword and shield having 2+ and 4++ saves.
As Lychguard is rather slow add Wraiths having 4++ save.
So there are two great units out there in the Necron codex resilient in melee.
Crafter91 wrote: I'm only new to Necrons and admittedly haven't played a single game yet, but the one thing i'm noticing a serious lack of in comparison to other 9th ed armies is invun saves.
There are a lot of units that can be taken out without anything stopping it by a single lascannon shot. Prime example, heavy lokhust destroyers.
Any tips on keeping things such as this alive? As an Eldar player first and foremost I would rely on things like Fire and Fade for this but I'm struggling with Crons.
Add a chronomancer, he is only 80 points. Isnt that great ? 80 points to give one unit a 5++ ? GW thinks we dont need inv, we have reanimation.
Crafter91 wrote: I'm only new to Necrons and admittedly haven't played a single game yet, but the one thing i'm noticing a serious lack of in comparison to other 9th ed armies is invun saves.
There are a lot of units that can be taken out without anything stopping it by a single lascannon shot. Prime example, heavy lokhust destroyers.
Any tips on keeping things such as this alive? As an Eldar player first and foremost I would rely on things like Fire and Fade for this but I'm struggling with Crons.
It is one of a number of issues with the codex. The Chronomancer gives you a way to give other units a 5++. It can be given to any unit of the same DYNSATY (there are a few non DYNASTY units that can never get it). It is generally best to put it on a unit costing as many points as possible to get some efficiency out of it. So, you might want to give it to a unit of 3 Heavy Lokhusts or a unit of 6 Normal + 1 Heavy Lokhusts, but then you are potentially giving your opponent the efficiency of putting their shots/stabs into a big unit.
I do think/hope a 10% point drop is coming in January. C'tans going to 333/315/243, Skorpekhs/Ophydians/Wraiths going to 31, Warriors to 12, Immortals to 15, Lychguard to 25, Lokhusts to 45/54 all sound plausible. An extra 220 points at current points values would get you 1 biggish unit or 2 small units, which either adds some punch or some utility to give you a chance into the top 8 codexes.
Crafter91 wrote: I'm only new to Necrons and admittedly haven't played a single game yet, but the one thing i'm noticing a serious lack of in comparison to other 9th ed armies is invun saves.
There are a lot of units that can be taken out without anything stopping it by a single lascannon shot. Prime example, heavy lokhust destroyers.
Any tips on keeping things such as this alive? As an Eldar player first and foremost I would rely on things like Fire and Fade for this but I'm struggling with Crons.
the 6++ dynasty, which is too weak.
For heavy Lokhust you might be better in a mixed squad with normals ones(unit size 6) and have Technomancers or Chronomancers.
Crafter91 wrote: I'm only new to Necrons and admittedly haven't played a single game yet, but the one thing i'm noticing a serious lack of in comparison to other 9th ed armies is invun saves.
There are a lot of units that can be taken out without anything stopping it by a single lascannon shot. Prime example, heavy lokhust destroyers.
Any tips on keeping things such as this alive? As an Eldar player first and foremost I would rely on things like Fire and Fade for this but I'm struggling with Crons.
Add a chronomancer, he is only 80 points. Isnt that great ? 80 points to give one unit a 5++ ? GW thinks we dont need inv, we have reanimation.
Reanimation works only for 1W models such as Necron Warriors and Immortals.
For models with 2W or 3W it is rather disappointing.
Reanimation works only for 1W models such as Necron Warriors and Immortals.
For models with 2W or 3W it is rather disappointing.
No, no, you are doing it wrong. You need three reanimators, they will give you +1 to reanimation rolls. Three if one, or two are killed. And the orb of eternity, which will also give you +1 to reanimation rolls. But you cant combine them, that would be OP.
Reanimation works only for 1W models such as Necron Warriors and Immortals.
For models with 2W or 3W it is rather disappointing.
No, no, you are doing it wrong. You need three reanimators, they will give you +1 to reanimation rolls. Three if one, or two are killed. And the orb of eternity, which will also give you +1 to reanimation rolls. But you cant combine them, that would be OP.
I mean, we have at least some units with an invuln. Wraiths, Board Lychguard, Tesseract Vault, Canoptek Stalkers. But yeah, out meele destroyers lack them althrough they would need them the most. Not beeing able to use REAP on 2+ wound models effectively would be fine if Rite of Reanimation wouldn’t be capped at 1 model per unit. At this point I wish they made REAP just a FNP roll instead of the current complex mess which is striktly worse. Or just enable REAP to heal models and bring models with not full health back.
Reanimation Protocols is not strictly worse than FNP since you get free movement, FNP was super boring when we had it.
Bosskelot wrote: Reanimators are excellent in Warrior heavy builds, to the point where I wouldn't leave home without one if taking 40+ warriors.
If you're not doing that sort of build then they absolutely stay at home.
Nah, still terrible. You would be better off including 6 more Warriors. A Reanimator dies to a well-placed melta shot, it's too expensive for how easily it dies and the fact that it provides next to nothing other than support. You need 36 Reanimation rolls on units that have been buffed by the Reanimator, while Warriors get to re-roll 1s that's still 31 rolls. It's not impossible for a Reanimator to earn its keep, I have used them and saw how against certain lists a Reanimator buffed block of Warriors becomes impossible to shift, there are just too many drawbacks at its current cost. It is 15-25 pts overcosted, that makes it hard to notice in a 2k list, but if you tried using 3 you would see how little they help and if you contrasted with a list with 0 there is no need to take Reanimators and 15-25 pts is a relatively large chunk of 80.
Manchild 1984 wrote: Reanimator is just defensive Support, if the unit is not attacked, the Reanimator just shoots its gun.
If the Reanimator has range and LOS to anything then it gets destroyed next turn. Every other unit in the codex has character protection or deals more damage per point invested than a Reanimator does with its wimpy guns.
Manchild 1984 wrote: Reanimator is just defensive Support, if the unit is not attacked, the Reanimator just shoots its gun.
If the Reanimator has range and LOS to anything then it gets destroyed next turn. Every other unit in the codex has character protection or deals more damage per point invested than a Reanimator does with its wimpy guns.
I mostly care about Aura based buffs, SK, Anrakyr, Destroyer Lords. These can also fight a bit. I dont respect the Crypteks that much.
vict0988 wrote: Reanimation Protocols is not strictly worse than FNP since you get free movement, FNP was super boring when we had it.
Bosskelot wrote: Reanimators are excellent in Warrior heavy builds, to the point where I wouldn't leave home without one if taking 40+ warriors.
If you're not doing that sort of build then they absolutely stay at home.
Nah, still terrible. You would be better off including 6 more Warriors. A Reanimator dies to a well-placed melta shot, it's too expensive for how easily it dies and the fact that it provides next to nothing other than support. You need 36 Reanimation rolls on units that have been buffed by the Reanimator, while Warriors get to re-roll 1s that's still 31 rolls. It's not impossible for a Reanimator to earn its keep, I have used them and saw how against certain lists a Reanimator buffed block of Warriors becomes impossible to shift, there are just too many drawbacks at its current cost. It is 15-25 pts overcosted, that makes it hard to notice in a 2k list, but if you tried using 3 you would see how little they help and if you contrasted with a list with 0 there is no need to take Reanimators and 15-25 pts is a relatively large chunk of 80.
I've been using Reanimators pretty solidly for the past few months and they've been excellent. It's actually not that difficult to hide them from enemy fire while still retaining LOS to the Warrior unit they're buffing. Yeah it means you might be stringing Warriors out and so losing shots, but realistically Warriors aren't killing much anyway. All you need them to be is a tarpit objective holder and a Reanimator facilitates that excellently. It doesn't even need to statistically bring back its amount of Warriors back, it just needs to make that one specific unit of Warriors that much more difficult to shift, forcing more and more firepower to be poured into it and subsequently being able to increase the effectiveness of a rez orb.
If you're playing in a meta with heavy out of LOS shooting or you're playing on planet bowling ball they really do fall off, but in all other circumstances they're really quite decent to the point where I've stopped taking them in casual games because they + Warriors can honestly feel oppressive.*
*Which is itself an issue with how the Codex in general is designed.
You should definitely not feel bad about including Reanimators in casual games, they are bad and they have not had any Grand Tournament top 4 placements and they are not common in tournament lists. Not to mention that Necrons are a bottom tier faction at the moment and that a lot of our company at the bottom are about to be updated and probably buffed.
A screen of 5 Scarabs in front of your Warriors will do far more. Blocking tonnes of Smites and making DS charges into the Warriors impossible and maybe even preventing units from going into melee with the Warriors depending on how much shooting your opponent has and how much room the Scarabs have to position themselves in front of the Warriors.
vict0988 wrote: You should definitely not feel bad about including Reanimators in casual games, they are bad and they have not had any Grand Tournament top 4 placements and they are not common in tournament lists. Not to mention that Necrons are a bottom tier faction at the moment and that a lot of our company at the bottom are about to be updated and probably buffed.
A screen of 5 Scarabs in front of your Warriors will do far more. Blocking tonnes of Smites and making DS charges into the Warriors impossible and maybe even preventing units from going into melee with the Warriors depending on how much shooting your opponent has and how much room the Scarabs have to position themselves in front of the Warriors.
Such a Scarab unit should protect the Warriors for one round as the Scarab screen needs to be shot down or taken down in melee before the Warriors could be taken on.
vict0988 wrote: Reanimation Protocols is not strictly worse than FNP since you get free movement, FNP was super boring when we had it.
Bosskelot wrote: Reanimators are excellent in Warrior heavy builds, to the point where I wouldn't leave home without one if taking 40+ warriors.
If you're not doing that sort of build then they absolutely stay at home.
Nah, still terrible. You would be better off including 6 more Warriors.
It doesn't even need to statistically bring back its amount of Warriors back, it just needs to make that one specific unit of Warriors that much more difficult to shift, forcing more and more firepower to be poured into it and subsequently being able to increase the effectiveness of a rez orb.
FYI, the metric of ‘making its points back’ in this context is relevant. The reason a ‘reanimator has to bring back its amount of warriors’ is because if it didn’t, using your standard of being ‘harder to shift’, that many points in more warriors would have been harder to shift than the reanimator-backed list.
I love the model and the concept of the reanimator.
But I don't really see the point in them since the only value they bring is their mediocre buff. Which is single target so your opponent can avoid targetting the unit.
I like how they made the railgun really good, I wonder if we can get some love with our Doomsday weapons? Necrons you guys get more units with core, Tau you get an str 14 ap 6 d d3+6 3 mortal wounds ignore invulnerable save weapon, ok that's fair.
CKO wrote: I like how they made the railgun really good, I wonder if we can get some love with our Doomsday weapons? Necrons you guys get more units get core, Tau you get an str 14 ap 6 d d3+6 3 mortal wounds ignore invulnerable save weapon, ok that's fair.
Off topic, whine thread is on 40k General Discussion.
CKO wrote: I like how they made the railgun really good, I wonder if we can get some love with our Doomsday weapons? Necrons you guys get more units get core, Tau you get an str 14 ap 6 d d3+6 3 mortal wounds ignore invulnerable save weapon, ok that's fair.
Off topic, whine thread is on 40k General Discussion.
It was more of a joke, I can see how it can come off as whining. I actually like the railgun becoming a potent weapon like it is in the fluff, our doomsday weapons in the fluff is equally as deadly but in the game, it doesn't meet the description. A simple change to the damage of the gun to d3+3 will make the doomsday weapons comparable to recent weapon profiles, d6 damage is an early 9th edition profile.
CKO wrote: I like how they made the railgun really good, I wonder if we can get some love with our Doomsday weapons? Necrons you guys get more units get core, Tau you get an str 14 ap 6 d d3+6 3 mortal wounds ignore invulnerable save weapon, ok that's fair.
Off topic, whine thread is on 40k General Discussion.
It was more of a joke, I can see how it can come off as whining. I actually like the railgun becoming a potent weapon like it is in the fluff, our doomsday weapons in the fluff is equally as deadly but in the game, it doesn't meet the description. A simple change to the damage of the gun to d3+3 will make the doomsday weapons comparable to recent weapon profiles, d6 damage is an early 9th edition profile.
Wish-listing, joking out of context of a current discussion without bringing anything to discuss tactics-wise, game design discussion and fluff discussion is all off-topic. I was not trying to snipe at you for whining, I don't hate you for being for off-topic, it's fine, it's just that if nobody brings things back on topic then the thread will be derailed for 2 pages. It's even too early to discuss how to counter Tau, because we don't know whether marker lights will allow Hammerheads to shoot without line of sight or something crazy like that, there is just no reason to theorize in this particular thread at this particular point in time IMHO.
I see your point vict I just went to that thread and I see why you don't want to bring it up and create a whine feast. The way I open the subject came off wrong but there is nothing wrong with discussing the most popular rumor in 40k. I believe that we are not fearful of railguns because of our quantum shields. They are paying a premium for a shot that has a 50% chance of doing nothing to our vehicles. The Silent King has his Menhirs to soak up at least 2 shots. Our C'tan will only take 3 wounds regardless. The railgun is not as deadly to us as it might be to other factions.
How good are the Wraiths with Whip Coils against armies with -1 damage?
We would probably need some Novokh strats to boost strength.
Could be good against Thoughness 7 dreadnoughts maybe.
CKO wrote: I see your point vict I just went to that thread and I see why you don't want to bring it up and create a whine feast. The way I open the subject came off wrong but there is nothing wrong with discussing the most popular rumor in 40k. I believe that we are not fearful of railguns because of our quantum shields. They are paying a premium for a shot that has a 50% chance of doing nothing to our vehicles. The Silent King has his Menhirs to soak up at least 2 shots. Our C'tan will only take 3 wounds regardless. The railgun is not as deadly to us as it might be to other factions.
I believe tau will get an auto wound stratagem, like we have. Or at least something that lets them reroll failed wound rolls.
Manchild 1984 wrote: How good are the Wraiths with Whip Coils against armies with -1 damage?
We would probably need some Novokh strats to boost strength.
Could be good against Thoughness 7 dreadnoughts maybe.
Manchild 1984 wrote: 8 hits wounding on 5+ not good enough?
seems better then 4 hits wounding on 4+
You have *2 attacks *2/3 wounding *2/3 armour penetration (8/9 or 89% of your regular damage when you downgrade to whips), so you always do less damage and with +1 Strength Stratagem the non-whip can do a bit more damage. Either way, Dreadnoughts do not die to Wraiths. You want Heavy Destroyers, Warriors or Doomsday Arks.
Vs dreads it's dead even but without cp spending. Better vs death guard infantry. Albeit it's niche but with all -1 flat 2 has lost it's appeal a lot to a point even d3 can be preferable.
tneva82 wrote: Vs dreads it's dead even but without cp spending. Better vs death guard infantry. Albeit it's niche but with all -1 flat 2 has lost it's appeal a lot to a point even d3 can be preferable.
ye, d3 -1 is 1/3+1/3+2/3 which is more then flat 2 -1
Im not a believer of having 6 very specific units for every case. I want a plan B for every unit I take.
In my opinion mephrit gaussbikes are our best/ most reliable shooting. I’m also expecting health points drops. 36 ish points is costly and don’t you dare compare them to things outside our book because...
I was wondering about a direct comparison to destroyers and heavy destroyers output. Could someone run the math for me?
The bikes have the advantage in range, mobility, consistency (pending math) and are a much less valuable target to an opponent than heavy destroyers. Bikes can have a 5++ without support.
Bikes can expect the extra ap but not the destroyers.
High volume of strength 5 ap3 shooting that ignores all the -1 dmg which seems to be getting pretty popular.
Not ideal going into heavy armor but 28 shots (I like squads of 7) hitting on 2’s wounding on 5’s with disintegration capacitors auto wounding... seems more efficient than a doomsday arc hoping to get lucky or heavy destroyers trying to play peak a boo with targets that outrange them.
What do you guys think ?
I was all set to give me old destroyers a run but couldn’t get over the 24” range or the points cost.
Reasonable that both units would get points drops so let’s compare them to each other now and see what happens?
Killing 5 Tactical Marines costs 280 pts for Tomb Blades, 290 pts for Destroyers.
Killing 1 Drukhari Raider costs 560 pts for Tomb Blades, 320 pts for Destroyers.
Killing 1 Dreadnought costs 450 pts for Tomb Blades, 410 pts for Destroyers.
That's with Tomb Blades in RF, no Mephrit. Gauss blasters are not anti-tank, they are anti-Marine. Gauss cannons, gauss destructors and gauss blasters have different roles, each outperforms the others at its intended task of killing light vehicles, killing Dreadnoughts and killing heavy infantry.
Some numbers to keep in mind: *Destroyers hit 17% more than Tomb Blades. *S6 increases damage against T5/6 by 33%/50% *Damage D3 is an average of 2, but will leave a Marine alive one third of the time for an average damage of 1,33 and will do 2 damage to a model that reduces damage by 1 one third of the time for an average of 1,5. *Going from 3+ to 4+ Sv increases damage by 50%, 4+ to 5+ increases damage by 33%, 5+ to 6+ increases damage by 25%, 6+ to 7+ increases damage 20%.
vict0988 wrote: *Going from 3+ to 4+ Sv increases damage by 50%, 4+ to 5+ increases damage by 33%, 5+ to 6+ increases damage by 25%, 6+ to 7+ increases damage 20%.
I did say that bikes are not ideal going into heavy armor.
I said I think they’re the best shooting UNIT we have. All around.
The lethality seems pretty comparable. The points might be the same for killing marines but the bikes can go get those marines from almost anywhere. The destroyers have to be deployed somewhat close and have to worry about exposing themselves. Heavy destroyers don’t want to play that game. Volume is more consistent than quality in such an instance. (Right?)
Are you really killing a meaningful amount of raiders in any necron list? Before they do their job? How tailored would you have to be?
The bikes having volume of fire, with the autowounding strat and the mephrit strat for 3 mortal wounds don’t really have a target they just hate shooting at.
Destroyers into a screen or marines doesn’t feel so great. Destroyers into anything -1 damage or anything with a good invuln, doesn’t feel so great. I can be ok wounding up to t8 on fives with a fistful of dice. Probably with the same ap (though not a given).
The breakpoint of wounding t3 on 2’s doesn’t feel substantial because what’s t3 that you want to shoot with destroyers? Heavy destroyers will be wounding t5 elite infantry on 2’s but youve only got three shots, decent ceiling low floor.
I guess heavy destroyers are about the very last thing a unit of ork buggies (t5 right?) wants to see but that’s pretty niche and there is a fair chance of good counter play (non los or just fast).
The bikes can go kill a unit off an objective and then hold that objective. Either with ap-3 or obsec, you’re getting things done. Go ahead and shoot me, I like it. Actually have a chance of reanimating and the -1 to be hit helps you get to roll for it. Same t5 but I’ll always have my 5++.
If in relentless expansionists, turn 1 they would have Pre game 6” plus 1 each for relentless March and sudden storm on top of their 14” move. 22”+d6 and you could pop their strat to maybe get a cheeky character snipe or ace a backfield objective holder, or open a spot for a deepstrike or murder the hell out of a screen. If you had a min squad that could be some serious bad touch potential.
The destroyers/ heavy destroyers just get to sit there looking cool hoping for good targets. They have good movement but they only care about cover and angles, they don’t go do things. It’s hard to pass up the buff bots (overlor, destroyer lord, maybe a techno)for destroyers or heavies which are all great but expensive and shoehorn you into a play style. The bikes only want +1 to hit and a slap on the ass and are ready to go do work. If we are talking about a ccb then he gets to go around doing things with the bikes or just being a maneuverable asset. Overlord on foot makes more sense for the destroyers but now he’s static.
I feel like there is a much greater chance of playing into a list that has not much armor than not much infantry. Vs a parking lot? We’re in trouble regardless and only going to win by playing objectives.
I’m not saying destroyers or heavy destroyers are bad I just don’t think they’re as good as bikes. I think a lot of people are kind of sleeping on bikes. (The models suck)
There would clearly be room for both destroyers/ heavies and bikes in the same list but now we are getting into gun line territory instead of being complimentary, especially with the support that turns the destroyers into monsters.
In such a list I imagine the destroyers would do more damage into favorable targets but that you would get much more value from your bikes. If there wasn’t heavy armor on the table then it doesn’t feel like much of a discussion.
Next to an overlord, destroyer lord and maybe a technomancer, a unit of destroyers and a unit of heavies all hanging out within range of each other and a juicy target(s)... it doesn’t get better than that. If you’re wanting to be able to delete any one thing in any one round of shooting that’s your best bet. That sounds like 8th edition though.
Incredibly resource intensive. That’s your whole hq contingent, way lots of points, creates a very valuable target for your enemy that pretty much needs a screen and hopefully the mission allows for castles.
You HAVE to have units to play the mission. You do not always HAVE to have (ranged) anti tank. Clearing screens and knocking small backfield units is going to be needful much more regularly than pure anti armor.
If the destroyers were d3+1, had range 30 without such sticker shock I think I’d maybe feel differently, they just arnt good enough at what they’re good at and don’t bring anything else to the table. Glass hammers to the max.
Happy to be “proved” wrong I just think the bikes bring a lot of non quantifiable elements and are right up there in the damage output department. Much more flexible.
vict0988 wrote: *Going from 3+ to 4+ Sv increases damage by 50%, 4+ to 5+ increases damage by 33%, 5+ to 6+ increases damage by 25%, 6+ to 7+ increases damage 20%.
I'm new to playing necrons, but I play against them quite frequently. And with that experience I tend to agree with your point. Bikes are durable, fast, and shooty. Whereas they may not be the best in any of those departments, the fact that they possess all three means that they have value, especially if they are spammed.
I spam the Ork bikes currently. Their stats are pretty comparable with Tomb Blades, the notable exception in their favor being they are 3w, but I think that is countered by the fact that they have low BS and LD. (Same points cost btw). People don't know what to do with the speed and durability in their face T1. I'm planning on building a similar necron list (27 tomb blades as the core) but I'm not sure what else I should be looking at the back it up. Ideas?
I'm new to playing necrons, but I play against them quite frequently. And with that experience I tend to agree with your point. Bikes are durable, fast, and shooty. Whereas they may not be the best in any of those departments, the fact that they possess all three means that they have value, especially if they are spammed.
I spam the Ork bikes currently. Their stats are pretty comparable with Tomb Blades, the notable exception in their favor being they are 3w, but I think that is countered by the fact that they have low BS and LD. (Same points cost btw). People don't know what to do with the speed and durability in their face T1. I'm planning on building a similar necron list (27 tomb blades as the core) but I'm not sure what else I should be looking at the back it up. Ideas?
you could do the all invul route with wraiths and Lychguard. Heavy Support not needed I don't think. Maybe the Command Barge.
Play a better faction in tournaments is what I do and just roll out the Necrons for the lulz occasionally. The main thing is I'm not buying/building/painting new units based on power, just on what I want in my collection for the future. They'll come good eventually right?
Tomb Blades vs Warbikers is a good example of where the Necrons are lacking.
A 25 pt Tomb Blade has a BS3 18" Assault 6 S5 AP0 gun and has WS3 1A AP0 in melee. Defensively it is -1 to hit 2W 4+, res protocols and living metal. And a Ld of 10.
A 25 pt Warbiker has s BS5 18" Dakka 10/6 S5 AP0 gun (half the BS but "twice" the shots) and has WS3 3A AP1 in melee. Defensively it is -1 to hit 3W 4+. Ld 7. Also has re-roll charges. The Nob also has +1S +1A +1W.
But, then you start looking at chapter tactics, Eternal Conquerors/Relentlessly Expansionist is probably better, but I think I would quite happily try out Freebooterz / Goffs / Blood Axes / Deathskulls / Snakebites (replace SQUIG with DESTROYER) as Necrons. Deathskulls are Szarekhan with obsec for Skorpekhs and Lychguard.
And then you look at super doctrines, Command Protocols (good luck staying within 6" of a character with your 14" move Tomb Blades) vs Waaagh (lets not have Ghaz call it and you just pick between two turns of either global range +1A melee or -1AP shooting). That is the issue Necrons have, they are missing that extra layer of free rules strength as their rules were so poorly written.
It is fixable. They are missing free rules, so the solution is a points drop to compensate or the most OP factions all getting points increases.
To that point, doesn't command protocol activate in the command phase? So we can assume being within 6" T1 is no problem. WAAAGH only lasts 2 turns (the second one being less effective). So it seems like it is pretty equitable to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm with Cauthon, I think that TB's are a slept on option for Necrons. They offer alot of what seems to be lacking in the codex (again, this is from the perspective of someone who doesn't play Necrons, so take all this with a hand full of salt lol) which is speed.
When I proposed the idea of my ork biker spam to my other community, people aid it wouldn't be good for various reasons. But currently, I can't play it at my FLGS because no one has an answer to it and I don't want to be a WAACTFG
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: To that point, doesn't command protocol activate in the command phase? So we can assume being within 6" T1 is no problem. WAAAGH only lasts 2 turns (the second one being less effective). So it seems like it is pretty equitable to me.
Command Protocols are declared start of each battle round, but the unit has to be within 6" of a character when that protocol is useful. So T1 Sudden Storm can be decent for that +1" move, but after you've moved away from your characters it's not as easy. Ones like Vengeful stars don't care if you started within 6" of a character, it cares if you are still there when you're shooting.
Waagh may only last for 2 turns, but the boss that declares it could be sitting in a corner while the boyz, bikers, and other units are all in the front lines. They don't need a babysitter character to get their rules.
There's also something to be said for actually having the Command Protocols arranged in an order that actually benefits you. Hungry Void is worthless if nothing is even able to make it to combat that turn, and that's something you have to decide before the game begins.
I'm new to playing necrons, but I play against them quite frequently. And with that experience I tend to agree with your point. Bikes are durable, fast, and shooty. Whereas they may not be the best in any of those departments, the fact that they possess all three means that they have value, especially if they are spammed.
I spam the Ork bikes currently. Their stats are pretty comparable with Tomb Blades, the notable exception in their favor being they are 3w, but I think that is countered by the fact that they have low BS and LD. (Same points cost btw). People don't know what to do with the speed and durability in their face T1. I'm planning on building a similar necron list (27 tomb blades as the core) but I'm not sure what else I should be looking at the back it up. Ideas?
If I was going heavy into bikes like that I would consider taking an outrider to also have wraiths and some scarabs. The wraiths have similar move as bikes but are more durable and have a little chop to them. If you had a mind to, a unit of wraiths and a unit of bikes, with their t1 +2 movement, you could really put a lot of pressure on a flank turn one. You could also deploy balanced and then jump over to one side or the other t1 leaving a cpl enemy units doing the travolta meme.
They go do a thing, make your opponent react. next turn you still have two squads of bikes to go out and get something done. (Because phaeron is buffing two units at a time, missiles away x2)
Scarabs are a wonderful backfield objective holder and zoning. Cheap as chips, ton of wounds and a huge footprint.
I would look at something like an outrider with ccb (reroll charges for core warlord trait) technos or maybe a chronomancer if you have the points (you don’t) 3 units of bikes, two units of wraiths a unit of scarabs. A unit of skorpekh to play linebacker, easy to hide but they move fast enough to be a problem solver, nightbringer and a squad or two of immortals for (new) rod.
Having wraiths and bikes for immediate pressure, your nightbringer and skorpekh can afford to chill so they can come out later in the game. If you can afford to just hang back with the nightbringer for a bit it really reduces the enemy’s ability to knock him out. He will be on their mind even if he’s not moving up the board. Your backfield scarabs have the option to keep doing what they do or you could bring them up to screen for nighty turn three perhaps. They are fast enough and don’t mind advancing if they go into screen mode.
None of this is really fun to shoot at. Your skorpekh would get lit up so they have to be cagey, if they have a 5++ and -1 damage, pretty not bad. They can easily ace a vehicle if need be but really can’t afford to get interrupted on.being able to move 8” in any direction plus charge (rerolling) you have a massive threat radius in your backfield while also threatening a center objective if there is one. All depending on cover of course.
It’s amazing how often my opponents think they HAVE to take out scarabs ASAP. Chronomancer makes that not appetizing and they will bring great value to your skorpekh when it’s their turn to dance.
You won’t have a ton of cp but you won’t need a bunch to make your army operate.
1 cp puts 10 immortals into strategic reserve. You will need the skorpekh to rod once. Feasible that skorpekh get both of your corners and the immortals walk onto the rest. Not the easiest but pretty doable. Especially if your bikes shoot out some of their zoning to make it easy to walk on. Engage and rod are my (and most peoples?) go to. Banners is out. If you don’t have the points for the immortals then you’ll have to do a no mercy secondary.
1 for the bikes advance and shoot strat if you want to blow someone’s mind with your threat radius.
1 or two cp for skorpekh whirling dervish
2-3 cp to let your bikes auto wound on 6’s
1 for a clutch nightbringer spell
1 or two to ignore cover.
Your mileage may vary but those are what I keep in mind.
I’d recommend 7 bike squads but I like where your heads at. The problem is they’re so damn clunky, you really can’t hide 9 behind anything. Gauss all day everyday.
If running a pair of bike squads with the ccb to roll around with the +1 to hit, a techno can spend to revive models in two squads and heal the ccb but you’d be counting on a misplay by your opponent to take wounds off two squads without killing one. You could get clever with your model pulling though. He can pretty much keep up, just don’t give him the relic staff of light so he doesn’t care about advancing. That’s a lot of points but it’s fast enough to work the flanks or just bail out if threatened
I’m pretty split on the dynasty. I’d probably go mephrit because your bikes are your workhorse but a pregame move for them would be tasty and jumping out 22 inches before charging with obsec could absolutely steal an objective they thought you couldn’t possibly. The mephrit warlord trait is a bit of a trap, you can buff the hell out of a ccb but it only makes it ok-ish in combat. Fair chance he’d get punked regardless.
My napkin math says if you want nightbringer that’s really going to cut into your secondary hq’s, would limit the bikes squad size a little. I think he’s a great compliment though. Scarabs can get dropped too, they’re just so cheap..
I think a list like this would be fun and you’d raise some eyebrows when you say you’re running necrons and pull this out, plays like elder lol. (Not really but kinda)
I have a competitive list in the forum that has a similar build, just no bikes.
Yeah points are going to change but you can still figure out what you WANT to run. Can come up with a play style you like or figure out what units you like. Hard to imagine some units going up in points, not like we have anything broken. I feel like if you came up with a list you really liked, you’re only going to drop in points. Not like bikes are going up in points while destroyers come down.. it’s all coming down. I could see scarabs going up, maybe? It’s not like they are going to drop destroyers down from 55 to 40 making me dumb for not taking them. They’ll be a lot more worth taking but I’m not seeing them go to an auto include because they still have real drawbacks besides their price tag.
Yes points changes are going to change things, they would have to do something insane like dropping warriors to 11 points before we had a net list to rule them all. Possible but not worth waiting on. See what you like, see if it works, see if it drops in points.
Hard to imagine some units going up in points, not like we have anything broken.
I used to think that before the last update when ccb and the Chronomancer lance went up 10 points. And neither was broken.
Is the Chronomancer weapon worth 10 points?
Why wouldn't it be? D3+3 damage is pretty great. The other weapon is cute but it doesn't really do anything. CCBs weren't being spammed, but I think Chronomancers were spammed to a degree, nerfing CCBs was the wrong decision, but if you don't think the weapon is worth 10 pts just take the other one.
Cauthon wrote: I went ahead and wrote up that bike list.
You'll enjoy it.
Make sure & magnetize/pin your weapons though. That way you're flexible as stats/pts/etc shift. It's a PITA to magnetize 81 sets of guns, but it's well worth it in the end.
One thing they could do to help us a lot is to allow us to pick our protocols at the beginning of the turn like Admech canticles it is literally the same thing, right?
CKO wrote: One thing they could do to help us a lot is to allow us to pick our protocols at the beginning of the turn like Admech canticles it is literally the same thing, right?
The protocols need a complete rework for me. If you want an example of a good army wide special look at the Strands of Fate rule Eldar are getting. It's really fluffy BUT it's simple to unlock (just have a pure craftworld Eldar army), it's easy to use in game, it will almost always provide you with some benefit and that benefit (turning a dice result into a six) is strong. Plus it can't be switched off.
Compare that to command protocols:
Must be mono necron faction AND must have a noble as your warlord AND units only benefit if they are close to a character.
The buffs are mediocre at best and situational at worst and you have to choose them and the order of them before you know turn order. So difficult to use and get the best out of them.
Then, you can shoot characters to essentially switch off the army wide bonus.
I’m my opinion I don’t think szeras will get a points drop. He will have been highly represented in our tourney lists that do “well”.
Things that are powerful in our book may see slights points increase for the purposes of internal balance.
Which is how I’d explain the ccb and chronomancer getting slight points increases.
At the time both were total auto includes.
I’m having a hard time believing in a 15 point increase on wraiths. Yeah they’re really great now but there hasn’t been enough time between the rules update and whenever they adjusted our points for it to show up I’m tournament results. 35-50 points is a ginormous leap. Especially x 5-6 dudes per squad.
The leaked photos show 45 for wraith. All of our HQs need a 10% drop. Actually, our entire army needs a 10% drop. Protocols are useless, RP is useless on multi wound models.
I just dont understand why szeras is 160. He has two useless abilities. His buff is random (which is ridiculous for a necron with millions year of experience), he has no inv. A 160 pts. HQ with no inv ?? He dedicated his life to improve necrons, but he didnt improve himself ?
I just dont understand why szeras is 160. He has two useless abilities. His buff is random (which is ridiculous for a necron with millions year of experience), he has no inv. A 160 pts. HQ with no inv ?? He dedicated his life to improve necrons, but he didnt improve himself ?
The no invuls hurts a lot. He is like 2 Technomancers (to non dynasty stuff) but without relics. The Buff is only good on Praetorians because they benefit from every outcome. But you would need 30...
