p5freak wrote: The leaked photos show 45 for wraith. All of our HQs need a 10% drop. Actually, our entire army needs a 10% drop. Protocols are useless, RP is useless on multi wound models.
I just dont understand why szeras is 160. He has two useless abilities. His buff is random (which is ridiculous for a necron with millions year of experience), he has no inv. A 160 pts. HQ with no inv ?? He dedicated his life to improve necrons, but he didnt improve himself ?
I wouldn't expect too much. Large scale point drops would be a real surprise.
Necrons seems to be Tier 4 atm (see Goonhammer's list) and it appears that winning against armies in the upper bracket is a challenge.
p5freak wrote: The leaked photos show 45 for wraith. All of our HQs need a 10% drop. Actually, our entire army needs a 10% drop. Protocols are useless, RP is useless on multi wound models.
I just dont understand why szeras is 160. He has two useless abilities. His buff is random (which is ridiculous for a necron with millions year of experience), he has no inv. A 160 pts. HQ with no inv ?? He dedicated his life to improve necrons, but he didnt improve himself ?
I wouldn't expect too much. Large scale point drops would be a real surprise.
Necrons seems to be Tier 4 atm (see Goonhammer's list) and it appears that winning against armies in the upper bracket is a challenge.
If winning is a challenge why wouldn't you expect a large-scale point drop?
p5freak wrote: The leaked photos show 45 for wraith. All of our HQs need a 10% drop. Actually, our entire army needs a 10% drop. Protocols are useless, RP is useless on multi wound models.
I just dont understand why szeras is 160. He has two useless abilities. His buff is random (which is ridiculous for a necron with millions year of experience), he has no inv. A 160 pts. HQ with no inv ?? He dedicated his life to improve necrons, but he didnt improve himself ?
I wouldn't expect too much. Large scale point drops would be a real surprise.
Necrons seems to be Tier 4 atm (see Goonhammer's list) and it appears that winning against armies in the upper bracket is a challenge.
If winning is a challenge why wouldn't you expect a large-scale point drop?
that would be GW admitting they messed up a 9th book.
If we do not get point changes I want weapon profile changes. I really would like d3 + 3 damage for our weapons, why is a doomsday cannon doing 1 or 2 damage? Upgrade our weapons to the new damage formula of (x) + y would help greatly. Giving us the ability to pick protocols and remove the fluffy character requirement would make the mechanic helpful and it would be a simple fix to protocols.
CKO wrote: If we do not get point changes I want weapon profile changes. I really would like d3 + 3 damage for our weapons, why is a doomsday cannon doing 1 or 2 damage? Upgrade our weapons to the new damage formula of (x) + y would help greatly. Giving us the ability to pick protocols and remove the fluffy character requirement would make the mechanic helpful and it would be a simple fix to protocols.
Forget it. This will not happen until we get a new codex.
CKO wrote: If we do not get point changes I want weapon profile changes. I really would like d3 + 3 damage for our weapons, why is a doomsday cannon doing 1 or 2 damage? Upgrade our weapons to the new damage formula of (x) + y would help greatly. Giving us the ability to pick protocols and remove the fluffy character requirement would make the mechanic helpful and it would be a simple fix to protocols.
This is exactly what Necrons need. I don't think points changes solve the Necrons problems. Most of their problems exist at datasheet level in the core rules of units. Too many random shot, random damage guns. A complete lack of affordable but reliable anti tank (S8+) weaponry. Units that lack survivability and/or simply don't work (reanimator needing LoS for example). Poorly designed and underwhelming at best faction rules (command protocols). A lack of access to damage 2 and 3 weapons.
Yes some units are definitely overcoated (personally I think the C'Tan are or certainly the nightbringer is). However I just think there are more fundamental issues with the army.
Especially since all the new hotness coming out is apparently packed to the gills with D3+3 or D3+6 or D6+3 now for some reason.
Our strongest gun is 3D3 and comes on a model that isnt that hard to get rid of. Hell even our relic arrow isnt as strong as some of the crap coming up and its a 1shot RELIC weapon. Never understood why our Doom weapons arent D3+3 at the minimum, especially since that was right at the beginning of their kick to do such a change.
Every time i play necrons if im facing bodies i dont really struggle, its mass higher toughness (higher than 5) that give me problems because its really difficult to field stuff that wounds AND pens their armor for 15+ models with 3+ wounds. I can face a numbers marine army and be relatively fine but if they start spamming dreads i pretty much only have a chance if i had a ctan around because nothing else can hurt them reliably enough.
Its entirely possible that a unit with meh weapons becomes so cheap to compensate that their durability suddenly becomes the problem and theres no happy medium between the two.
Thats kinda why the Squigbuggy for orks got overhauled rather than tweaked. Its old incarnation was so disgustingly bad that either it was dead weight for its cost or obscenely durable for its cost with no real in-between.
I dont think anything Necrons have is in that category though imo.
Honestly i do not think you can fix everything with points drops because you are also limited in how many you can take by other means, whether by unit specific limitations (e.g. you can only field 1 of certain HQ types) or by detachment limitations. I mean to give a daft example, suppose the reanimator was dropped to 0 points. It is still an elites choice and so you can only take as many as your detachment allows and in taking up that elite slot you are forgoing taking another type of elite. I was tempted, when anticipating this point, to say i don't think you could give reanimators away even if they cost 0 points they would still be hard to justify in a list but i suspect that isn't true but being 0 points and having 2 or 3 or whatever of them does not solve the issue that it is just too easy to kill. A 4++ save like the doomstalker and/or removing the need for LoS would fix that in my opinion but that is not a points change it is a datasheet change. They have done datasheet changes in the balance dataslate when they added the core keyword to a bunch of units so they absolutely could fix these things but they simply haven't.
With the core upgrades we got more fun. Not more better. My metta thought that day of.
More units got synergy to make them playable. Doesn’t fix our weaker mechanics such as protocols and reanimation.
We were never going to jump up a tier, was quality of life.
The points drops will help but really we should be hoping for a supplement. Would be easy to fix some things that cannot be fixed with a points drop.
Crusher stampede is giving me a half chub. Gw just slapped on two of the biggest buffs in the game of -1dmg and 5++ across the board. Massive game changer. Well not the biggest buffs (-1 to wound) but very substantial.
Core is good, points drops will be good, a supplement is going to be our game changer.
In the meantime we get to git good with our uphill battles.
Honestly not having to wait 5+ years for a new book has me optimistic about our current power level. Things will get fixed. Hopefully. Reasonable to expect imo.
Cauthon wrote: Honestly not having to wait 5+ years for a new book has me optimistic about our current power level. Things will get fixed. Hopefully. Reasonable to expect imo.
Not to be a debbie downer but I honestly don't think it's reasonable to expect much of anything from GW. Their track record for correcting imbalance is woefully underwhelming and slow. They seem to be of the opinion that it's just easier not to try and instead to wait for a new edition. I definitely want to see a serious revisit to some of the most basic and fundamental parts of our codex that are lacking but I seriously doubt that anything of note will happen in 9th edition.
A lot of Necron unit got "core" keyword. How it did not help? Seriously.
For example Technomancer can now reanimate Wraiths, and all type of Destroyers.
With 1CP can reanime two models (one per different unit) per turn.
He can only reanimate when at least one model is still there. No reanimation when the unit is gone. Only dumb opponents will kill models from multiple units, which are in range of a technomancer. The goal is to wipe out one unit, to prevent reanimation.
p5freak wrote: He can only reanimate when at least one model is still there. No reanimation when the unit is gone. Only dumb opponents will kill models from multiple units, which are in range of a technomancer. The goal is to wipe out one unit, to prevent reanimation.
Xyxel wrote: So you got large bonus but still are upset that core army mechanics can be negated and call it "no help at all". ok, got it.
it's not a large bonus... the core mechanic is only relevant if you take things like Overlords...
The Destroyer Lords don't really care about core in the first place, they mostly do their own thing.
And the Technomancers/Anrakyr I mentioned.
If it takes two turns.....what exactly is the problem with that? Nightbringer can be killed in two turns, does that mean necrodermis is trash because your opponent can play around it? MAKE THEM play around it. MAKE THEM have to focus fire one squad at a time. TELL him that if you don’t wipe that squad I’m bringing dudes back, you can make that work for you.
Just because an opponent is smart or not doesn’t mean they can always just one shot all of our units every time.
What CANT be killed in two turns?
Saying strategies don’t work because opponent arnt dumb is extremely defeatist.
What does it take to wipe a 6 man wraith unit?
Warriors have 20’wounds at t4 and are lucky to get a save.
Wraiths have 18 wounds at t5 with a 4++.
The wraiths are cheaper.
Saying smart opponents pick up a squad at a time is assuming YOURE not a smart opponent either.
If you push wraiths up a flank he may not be able to shoot them with much of his army.
If they wipe one squad of wraiths do they just call that a shooting phase? Are they not going to put any shots into your other squad because they might not 1 shot the squad?
You could hide one or two in terrain, if they killed four wraiths they can no longer target the last two that are hidden.
If you can’t keep a unit of wraiths alive it’s your own fault. 14” move on turn one means they can deploy back and still get where they need to.
If you start up and have a 6 inch pregame move to either hide in terrain or move up the board... if you have 20 inches of move and can’t find some cover that’s a you problem.
Smart opponents are not able to counter every strategy every time.
Being able to be veiled, orb’d, rerolling charges, relentless March, technomancer’d and prismatic dimensional breach is a large bonus. That’s a fact.
Saying everything gets picked up every time is non sensical. Ppl have to roll dice, play objectives, shoot at what they can get in range of, target priority.
So if a unit of Tsons termies can one shot a unit of wraiths, that sucks. You got to roll your invulns and it didn’t work out. No reanimation. Sucks.
If he can do the same to say a tyranofex does that mean a 5+ fnp and -1 dmg are rules that arnt worth having? Is the tyranofex trash because it can get one shot? Maybe you just need to be careful? Maybe some games it will do great and others it will just disappear? Maybe take 2!
The game has to be played.
People have better things to do than worry about making sure we can’t reanimate.
Issue is vast majority of the core benefits are still blocked by that stupid command phase.
Virtually every dirty tactic i can think of falls flat on its face when i remember the timing doesnt work, because for some stupid reason all buffs happen in the command phase BEFORE anything moves, disembarks, or arrives from reserves.
So next to nothing involving Core actually matters unless it sat there for a turn and somehow is both A) still in range to do the nasty deed and B) didnt get obliterated before the nasty deed could happen.
Thats like the ONE real boon, as Lokhusts generally are always on the table and out of danger so easily buffed.
Other being the +1Str applies to Core, which is massive for Flayed Ones.
Outside that...either not really a benefit or cannot happen until a full turn too late.
The Core buff was definitely a help. However Necrons have precious little access to reliable S8+, reliable damage weapons and their weapons generally do not have great damage output. I still maintain that what Necrons need is to have their equipment reviewed so they have better access to none damage 1 weapons. Making the Doomstalker damage D3+3 would be a good start but really we need some affordable S8+ guns which aren't mounted on costly units like Monoliths, Doomscythes etc. Command Protocols needs reworking, some units (Reanimator) need a serious reboot. So yeah, core was good but it does not fix the faction.
So core is relevant for:
- Lord of the Pyrrhian Legions (1 per Army)
- The Lord's Will
- My will be done
- Relentless March
- Rites of Reanimation
- Adaptive Strategy
- Veil of Darkness (1 per army)
- Various Transports
- Some Stratagems
- The Phaeron of the Stars/Blades
- Mechanical Augmentation (best on Praetorians)
Some of the HQ buffs come at a hefty point cost. Veil of Darkness got the biggest buff I think, since its 0 points.
I've only played one game since the Core changes, and I must say a CCB + a Cloak Technomancer following & bufing a 6-man unit of Lokhusts up the board was ridiculous.
Single-handedly that unit wiped roughly 900 points across three turns
Next time I intend on doubling down on that midgame lump, by adding a unit of Skorpekh to the mix, and adding a Chronomancer for the Skorpekhs
I might even try buying MWBD twice on the CCB if I do that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess what I'm trying to say is I think unit wise Destroyers are the biggest winners of the Core change.
IHateNids wrote: I've only played one game since the Core changes, and I must say a CCB + a Cloak Technomancer following & bufing a 6-man unit of Lokhusts up the board was ridiculous.
Single-handedly that unit wiped roughly 900 points across three turns
Next time I intend on doubling down on that midgame lump, by adding a unit of Skorpekh to the mix, and adding a Chronomancer for the Skorpekhs
I might even try buying MWBD twice on the CCB if I do that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess what I'm trying to say is I think unit wise Destroyers are the biggest winners of the Core change.
I think 9 Lokhust without HQCCB would be more damage.
But Wraiths and Lychguard could work very well in concert.
For this, use the 6'' pregame move such that Wraiths could charge asap with Lychguard behind.
Next round, Wraiths withdraw charging forward and let Lychguard
charge the unit left blank by the Wraiths to finish it off.
From my experience with this edition Wraith really suffer from the 4+ WS. Core buff allows you to buff them with the CCB at least, but then you need more or less to dedicate the ccb to it. Canoptek Control Node is way too slow to keep up with Wraiths.
I also agree on the fact that you have to plan with multiples of a unit to make it work. A lonely LHD will be erased within seconds f.e., Canoptek Spyders scale way too good with buffs to just use a unit of 1, Stalkers and DDA’s are not reliable enough with the Heavy D6 profile to hope that 1 can take down any tank.
5 attacks with Novokh stratagem 3+ to hit if flying Technomancer will advance after them for buff and ressurection and d3 healing.
+1 to Charge and +1 to AP if any charge (-3AP) in Novokh so they murder MEQs nicely. gakky thou if they fight with 3+W oponents or dreads with damage reduction.
No, they dont. 3 attacks on 3+ is 2 hits. 4 attacks on 4+ is 2 hits.
Right.
Wraiths were never a killy unit, also not in previous editions.
But they can hold up enemy units and also withdraw without penalty.
This makes them a versatile unit.
Is anyone using Praetorians and having even a small bit of success? I need to get on assembling my 20 lychguard/triarchs and want to make at least 5 of them.
caladancid wrote: Is anyone using Praetorians and having even a small bit of success? I need to get on assembling my 20 lychguard/triarchs and want to make at least 5 of them.
2 wins and 1 loss in casual games with 2x10 rod of covenant Praetorians in a Silent King list. Silent King means a lot, especially against T5+. I think you should make 10 Praetorians, Lychguard are not a thing I would want to spam.
caladancid wrote: Is anyone using Praetorians and having even a small bit of success? I need to get on assembling my 20 lychguard/triarchs and want to make at least 5 of them.
point changes might come soon, just wait a week
Edit: Wraithguard is another reason for whips on wraiths
caladancid wrote: Is anyone using Praetorians and having even a small bit of success? I need to get on assembling my 20 lychguard/triarchs and want to make at least 5 of them.
2 wins and 1 loss in casual games with 2x10 rod of covenant Praetorians in a Silent King list. Silent King means a lot, especially against T5+. I think you should make 10 Praetorians, Lychguard are not a thing I would want to spam.
Ok thanks for the advice! These dudes have been sitting unassembled for years...its time to get on it haha.
Sword and Shield Lychguard are vastly superior to Pretorians at the moment, it would take some hefty point changes to alter that. 10 of each seems the most sensible option though, everything comes around eventually.
No, they dont. 3 attacks on 3+ is 2 hits. 4 attacks on 4+ is 2 hits.
The problem with this equation is not the math it is the assumption that 2 hits are as valuable as they once were. If everything is getting stronger and you remain the same that means you have gotten weaker. Especially with the codex creep, we are experiencing.
Manchild 1984 wrote: we should be whining about the dire avengers making fun of warriors.
Why? You could be whining about Deathshroud Terminators making fun of Warriors, that'd make more sense since that is a unit currently seeing play. The new Craftworlds codex isn't out so you don't for sure know the rules, even with the rumours it seems they will have totally different roles. A hard-hitting medium-ranged glass cannon Elites unit vs a hard-hitting close-ranged durable Troops unit.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Sword and Shield Lychguard are vastly superior to Pretorians at the moment, it would take some hefty point changes to alter that.
10 of each seems the most sensible option though, everything comes around eventually.
Without inv. save, Praetorians are rather vulnerable.
With relentless expansionist, Lychguard are not that slow if they head midfield.
I'd use Lychguard w/ shields over Praetorians any day.
Manchild 1984 wrote: we should be whining about the dire avengers making fun of warriors.
Why? You could be whining about Deathshroud Terminators making fun of Warriors, that'd make more sense since that is a unit currently seeing play. The new Craftworlds codex isn't out so you don't for sure know the rules, even with the rumours it seems they will have totally different roles. A hard-hitting medium-ranged glass cannon Elites unit vs a hard-hitting close-ranged durable Troops unit.
point costs are closer, and durabiltiy only matters when you are threatening enough, which the dire avengers will be.
And if DA get a 5++ they are almost as durable.
Psychocouac wrote: Was hoping for more than just 5 points for lokhust heavy destroyer. And -40 for the "Craftworld Obelisk..." Yeah add insult to injury.
The good thing is nothing went up in points. But because the HQ's are still a massive Tax, the Necron future might be to pay 3 CP for specialised detachements of destroyers.
Psychocouac wrote: Was hoping for more than just 5 points for lokhust heavy destroyer. And -40 for the "Craftworld Obelisk..." Yeah add insult to injury.
The good thing is nothing went up in points. But because the HQ's are still a massive Tax, the Necron future might be to pay 3 CP for specialised detachements of destroyers.
The article is called point drops. Just because some Necron units are going down in points, doesn't mean that other won't go up.
Our points drops seem to be pretty comparable to others point drops. Which is pretty not good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: However. If hive guard went up 5 per there is no way in hell wraiths are moving up 15 per. Probably 5. So my one unit of skorpekh and one unit of wraiths are going to wash out.
Yes, yes, I can domin/work with this! I wonder if our ghost arks will get a 10 point decrease because it shares the doomsday chassis and it is a means of transport like the night scythe.
Doom Scythes at 180 which is the exact same price as the admech's stratoraptor. For a flyer point cost wise it is where it should be but it's still not an optimal choice.
Night Scythes at 130 is our biggest winner! This thing is only 5 more points than an annihilation barge, I plan on using 2 in my list! The strongest stratagem in our codex is prismatic dimensional breach! Normally we can't take advantage of it due to it being a gimmicky one-trick pony stratagem. With 2 Night Scythes, your options double as your opponent will have to take out both of them compared to one. The number of core units has changed Necron Flayed Ones, Skorpekh Destroyers, and Lokhust Destroyers can use the stratagem or be transported. For 260 points we have some serious mobility shenanigans.
Doomsday ark at 160 makes it a good vehicle. The cannon is still underwhelming but think of it like this. It has the gauss firepower of 10 warriors which is 130 points, so you are paying 40 points for the cannon that needs a d3+3 profile. The reason why it is good is the thing has 14 wounds with quantum shielding. I think at 160 it may be one of the most durable vehicles in the game.
Skorpekh destroyers at 30 points are excellent. 90 points for a unit that on average can kill 5 primaris marines I will take it!
The Ophydian Destroyers are an interesting choice, they may have a role for objectives. 90 points to have a unit that hides and gathers engage on all fronts, using the stratagem to relocate you can increase the size of the unit and use them for the new ROD.
Lokhust Destroyers at 45 points is good, for 135 points you get 9 str 6 ap 3 d3 d shots. With them being core they benefit from MWBD and their shots become near auto-hits due to re-rolls from hardwired. 270 points for a squad of 6 is not back-breaking and is a unit we can rely on to do the heavy lifting, especially when combined with the re-roll wound stratagem.
Lokhust Heavy Destroyers you were once 70 points now you are 55! A unit of 3 is only 165 points compared to 2 Ironstriders with cognis-lascannon at 170! A reliable anti-tank option that doesn't break the bank. With the destroyer point decrease, they recognize we needed more firepower and the Lokhust destroyers gives us that.
The Monolith is now in the same range as our C'tan at 330. I don't like the size and lack of fly. I think it can work now but not an optimal choice. The other big boy options are still to many points.
30 point decrease to you know who the only thing I have to say is "ALL HAIL THE SILENT KING"!
Heavy Lokhusts getting a drop is helpful for competitive lists. The big question is will any of Characters or the original core units get drops? A point or two off Warriors / Immortals / Lychguard / Tomb Blades could be significant. Same for HQs and C'tan.
Points changes don’t fix broken mechanics. Reanimation is just not good. Protocols are just awful.
Making the doom scythe cheaper is great but if it’s still t6 with no quantum shielding and the same cost as much better flyers, those points drops are fairly insignificant. Being the same price as the admech flyer is not a win.
It’s a fair chunk of points but it doesn’t “fix” the unit. It might get it on the table but it doesn’t make the unit better. Especially in relation to other flyers that just have better rules.
I’d pay that 20 points every time if I could get quantum shielding. Rules matter more than points.
Points drops are great but if everything is getting cheaper then we are going to stay in the exact same place.
We will have to see the big picture, skorpekh going down is great but if bladeguard go down as well, then we are not gaining on them.
Cauthon wrote: Well that’s about as close minded as it gets.
Points changes don’t fix broken mechanics. Reanimation is just not good. Protocols are just awful.
Protocols are awful but reanimation is good. Lower your expectations and appreciate the 2-3 models you reanimate. If you think reanimating is supposed to be as good as an invulnerable save you are going to be disappointed. Technomancers can get back around 100 points worth of models a turn. I like ghost arks and often use the stratagem to get back d6 warriors combine with a technomancer who can contribute another d3.
Cauthon wrote: Making the doom scythe cheaper is great but if it’s still t6 with no quantum shielding and the same cost as much better flyers, those points drops are fairly insignificant. Being the same price as the admech flyer is not a win.
It’s a fair chunk of points but it doesn’t “fix” the unit. It might get it on the table but it doesn’t make the unit better. Especially in relation to other flyers that just have better rules.
The reason for the decrease is to make sure we are not paying more points for similar units. I agree with you that durability with our flyers is a serious issue. I hate that we can only pivot once. I am still excited about Night Scythes at 130 points you can use them to attack small units, and you can use the stratagem to get auto charges for things you put in strategic reserve.
Cauthon wrote: I’d pay that 20 points every time if I could get quantum shielding. Rules matter more than points.
I would say something negative here but I would be a hypocrite as I have been crying for a d3 + 3 damage profile for the doomsday cannon.
Cauthon wrote: Points drops are great but if everything is getting cheaper then we are going to stay in the exact same place.
We will have to see the big picture, skorpekh going down is great but if bladeguard go down as well, then we are not gaining on them.
I agree, so far we are the big winners of this chapter approve and we may get more units to go down we shall see.
Manchild 1984 wrote: Maxing destroyers seems the way to go. Tough choice will be HQ's and if we need anything besides destroyers.
This is how I feel as well. 3x6 skorp or maybe 2x6 + 1x3, 2x3 LHD, and the Silent King is what I'm thinking of as a starting point with the stuff I have. Probably lots of scarabs and wraiths too.
If reanimation is so good then why should I lower my expectations? Reanimation protocols are fine. They are not good.
I do not think they should be invulns...? Don’t tell me what I think if I didn’t say it. Please.
I think we should be able to change 1 die to a 5 per roll. You should always get at least 1 single wound model back and it shouldn’t be extremely unlikely to get a 3 wound model back.
But that’s wishlisting.
Its our signature move and it’s quite often irrelevant. It’s not useless but it’s not very strong.
My expectations are perfectly low. Sometimes it’s clutch, a lot of times it’s irrelevant.
Making warriors 11 points a model would be awesome but it wouldn’t fix reanimation protocols.
I said if you think, not you think which makes it philosophical. I never said that you think it is like an invulnerable save. I only mentioned invulnerable save because it is not quite as good as one. It is a unique ability that throughout the course of a game several points will be reanimated either normally, techno, ghost ark or via orb. Resulting in 100's of points worth of models coming back.
Old-style "5+ it comes back at the end of the phase if the unit is still around" was worthless, it almost never ever happened as it was so easy to just clear the unit.
7th FNP was ridiculous since it also circumvented insta-sporking rules for FNP, reducing it to a 6+++ instead of denying it entirely. It had no counter, and when it has no counter it gets stupid.
Current is a nice middleground. It still triggers long as the unit didnt die, but its every attack so the odds of it getting wiped out are significantly less than before (yes you usually have that 1 unit that just goes POOF but thats 1 unit not your entire army getting wiped or not hurt at all). Its strong, but counterable. The issue is it is tied to 'attack' for some stupid reason. I dont even care that its harder for multiwound models to get it im actually fine with it, but not getting RP because a tank blew up near me or someone Spiked Ram'd my unit to cause random out-of-attack mortal wounds is just stupid. In the past that would have been fine because it wasnt that likely to take heavy damage outside of an attack, but these days its pretty common *cough* Tsons *cough* If they were to change anything about RP i'd change it to "An effect that caused the unit to suffer damage/mortal wounds is complete..." instead of "after being attacked..."
Protocols are just...lame. They need a full rework which wont ever happen w/o a new codex sadly.
Manchild 1984 wrote: Point costs are almost everything, noone will convince me otherwise
How will any amount of pts drops ever fix the two glaring problems I see whenever I look at a Flayed One?
1) Flayed Ones do nothing that I want that I can't do better with something else. And to include them in a list would mean that I had to give up using something I do want to use.
2) I don't spend $ on & waste time playing with sculpts I don't like. Guess what? I've never liked Flayed One sculpts. Not the old metals & not these new plastics.
Manchild 1984 wrote: Point costs are almost everything, noone will convince me otherwise
How will any amount of pts drops ever fix the two glaring problems I see whenever I look at a Flayed One?
1) Flayed Ones do nothing that I want that I can't do better with something else. And to include them in a list would mean that I had to give up using something I do want to use.
2) I don't spend $ on & waste time playing with sculpts I don't like. Guess what? I've never liked Flayed One sculpts. Not the old metals & not these new plastics.
It's not worth it to do something with a 200 point unit if a 100 point unit can do it better. Flayed Ones can do everything, they can hold objectives, screen the board, take objectives, DS and do actions, kill enemies. That was your regularly unscheduled bit of tactics, you can go back to discussing rumours (although I'd prefer if you did it in another thread because I don't care about rumours).
Flayed Ones being worth bringing comes down entirely to points, the question is how many other models are you leaving at home for each Flayed One you bring. Just say you don't want to play them, don't act like the unit wouldn't be spammed at 9 PPM and insanely OP at 5 pts per model. Why are your opinions on sculpts relevant in a tactics thread? There are alternatives to the official sculpts like proxies and conversions.
Cauthon wrote: I don’t think flayed ones are great for their intended use but a 5 man squad with native deepstrike just got a lot more relevant with the new rod.
6 man*, don't want to accidentally fail getting data.
Flayed Ones being worth bringing comes down entirely to points, the question is how many other models are you leaving at home for each Flayed One you bring. Just say you don't want to play them, don't act like the unit wouldn't be spammed at 9 PPM and insanely OP at 5 pts per model. Why are your opinions on sculpts relevant in a tactics thread? There are alternatives to the official sculpts like proxies and conversions.
Typical thinking of economists (which I like).
I also think players are biased to what they bought, but the Overlords are really not good.
My HQ pics might be Anrakyr, Skorpekh Lord, Lokhust Lord.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Flayed Ones are 10 points now?
Well, I wasn't too enthused with the points drops orginally, seeing how I feel like the critical units that needed to get dropped got missed (I.E. Troops and HQ) but with everyone else getting dumpstered by this CA it looks like it improved our outlook.
I think with FOs at 10 points now, that 2x6 for RND is probably going to be an auto-take now. There also appears to be more actions in a lot of the Primaries for missions now as well.
2 Squads of Skorpekhs with plasmacytes seems like a pretty easy include now as well. Between the core buffs and the pts drops, they are among the best units in our army now for sure
I also suspect 2x3 LHD will be a staple now as well. That's pretty excellent Anti-tank. Lokhust Lord also seems like he should probably start being considered as well.
As for the rest of the list.. that's where it gets tricky. I love TSK, but with Tau and HG still running around I think he's still too much of a liability, but he is enticing for sure. If custodes are a top army, funny enough Warrior blobs tend to do real well into them.
Overall, I think this update does bring Necrons up. By virtue of both the points drops and several other armies getting just dumpstered by the subfaction and points changes. I still think we have some issues with some of our natural enemies out there I.E. Tsons and it doesn't bring is up to A tier or anything. I at least feel like we are playable now.
Well this sucks. Been hyped for awhile and now I’m sad.
So...skorpekh went down...? Destroyers are still overpriced. GW is handing out -1 dmg like candy. Get out of here with that d3 damage.
We are really getting somewhere on heavy destroyers.
Flayed ones went down but I can still walk 10 immortals on for 1 cp, which don’t take up your elite slot, fills a troop slot and does rod better anyway. I didn’t consider them at 13 points and I still won’t at 10 points. Plus being in the elite slot, I don’t think they will have a large impact at all. To much opportunity cost.
I’m not buying flayed ones spam. They still don’t have a delivery mechanism, still arnt core and they’re still strength 4 with ap1. Skorpekh are better in every single way, faster, cheaper, more survivable, can actually kill stuff. Access to way better strats and all the core goodies. If you could give flayed ones +1 to hit and +1 strength, they’d do the thing. If they got there.
If you think you’re going to be able to deepstrike 20 in and make your 8inch charge I think you’ll be disappointed quite often. That’s a huge footprint and if you don’t make that charge, goodbye. A melee unit with movement 5 and zero survivability and basically no ap, hard pass. 5 (or 6) man squad action monkeys, sure, maybe. 20 man blobs thinking they’re going to accomplish anything, probs not. You’re really really good at killing chaff. Woo.
Is anyone who think points matter more than rules pumped about doomsday arcs and doomsday stalkers now? Yea you could make them ridiculously cheap and they would be excellent but that’s never going to happen. If you drop it another 20 points I’d be ready to be hurt by some randomization.
Our vehicles are still garbage, our hq’s are very overcosted and will always be necessary to get what little synergy we can get.
Other factions getting similar points drops and op factions not getting touched, I don’t think we moved the needle at all.
Very disappointing.
My list dropped 40 points!! Woo
Automatically Appended Next Post: For those of you who ARE into flayed ones.
Green stuff over old warrior models with some claw hands is probably the way to go.
Cauthon wrote: Well this sucks. Been hyped for awhile and now I’m sad.
So...skorpekh went down...? Destroyers are still overpriced. GW is handing out -1 dmg like candy. Get out of here with that d3 damage.
We are really getting somewhere on heavy destroyers.
Flayed ones went down but I can still walk 10 immortals on for 1 cp, which don’t take up your elite slot, fills a troop slot and does rod better anyway. I didn’t consider them at 13 points and I still won’t at 10 points. Plus being in the elite slot, I don’t think they will have a large impact at all. To much opportunity cost.
I’m not buying flayed ones spam. They still don’t have a delivery mechanism, still arnt core and they’re still strength 4 with ap1. Skorpekh are better in every single way, faster, cheaper, more survivable, can actually kill stuff. Access to way better strats and all the core goodies. If you could give flayed ones +1 to hit and +1 strength, they’d do the thing. If they got there.
If you think you’re going to be able to deepstrike 20 in and make your 8inch charge I think you’ll be disappointed quite often. That’s a huge footprint and if you don’t make that charge, goodbye. A melee unit with movement 5 and zero survivability and basically no ap, hard pass. 5 (or 6) man squad action monkeys, sure, maybe. 20 man blobs thinking they’re going to accomplish anything, probs not. You’re really really good at killing chaff. Woo.
Is anyone who think points matter more than rules pumped about doomsday arcs and doomsday stalkers now? Yea you could make them ridiculously cheap and they would be excellent but that’s never going to happen. If you drop it another 20 points I’d be ready to be hurt by some randomization.
Our vehicles are still garbage, our hq’s are very overcosted and will always be necessary to get what little synergy we can get.
Other factions getting similar points drops and op factions not getting touched, I don’t think we moved the needle at all.
Very disappointing.
My list dropped 40 points!! Woo
Automatically Appended Next Post: For those of you who ARE into flayed ones.
Green stuff over old warrior models with some claw hands is probably the way to go.
170 pts 1CP vs 60 pts. FOs are CORE. FOs have tonnes of attacks, Novokh boosts AP to 2 and makes DS charge more likely.
Heavy Lokhusts went down 8%, DDA went down 6%, they were equal before, DDAs are alright but Heavy Lokhusts are starting to really slap.
Troops not going down sucks since missions look to favour Troops, lot to be happy about but Psychomancer, Reanimator and Deathmarks needed a buff more than Heavy Lokhusts, Skorpekhs and SK. Typical.
Flayed ones are interesting now. Shame the models are such a pain to buy and build.
There's also a steep opportunity cost for small units because elite slots are at a premium. I'm looking at a list based on two patrols and those four elite slots disappear very fast. I could potentially run a battalion instead but then I'd have to bring more troops, which doesn't really appeal.
Warriors in particular look weak now that other units have seen the core buff and points decreases. The premise of warriors is that they're tough, but actually units like Skorpekhs now give you more wounds/point, with T5 and 3+ saves. And that's before you even consider scarabs. It's not clear what role warriors really fulfil now, sadly. Immortals are kind of fine as action monkeys and objective sitters.
Destroyers seem like the way to go. Skorpekhs look pretty serious. They might be good enough to justify a Lokhust lord, maybe with voltaic staff and res orb. He'd be a bit more worthwhile in a list with some Lokhusts too.
I've been very slowly putting together a necron list since Indomitus came out. It's been a bit amusing to see these bits of plastic randomly get better and worse so many times before ever seeing a table. Luckily I'm not taking it too seriously because every time I finish a unit it seems to lose out relative to the rest of the book. At least I've got 12 Skorpekhs and a WIP Lokhust lord (based on a LHD, which might now be better than the Lord.
I didn’t think flayed ones were core. That does change things. My bad.
I said 10 immortals because that’s two squads of 5 for the purposes of rod, so 170 v 120. The immortals are t5 with a 3+ and a ranged profile, that’s natively ap2. A flayed one list probably already has min squads of immortals. Unless you’re spamming t4 4+ bodies which..
I’d pay 1 cp to fill up troop slots and avoiding wasting my elite slots. Flayed ones are cheaper but the immortals are more useful after they complete their action.
Novokh helps out skorpekh just as much if not more than flayed ones. I already gave you the 8 inch charge. You still have a giant footprint so that’s still going to kill your deepstrike opportunities.
I still don’t think flayed ones are going to get where they want to be, if they do get there how many cp will you have to spend to make them work?
Being core does make a big difference. Being able to spend cp to give +1 strength +1 attack (if novokh) and 2 cp to fight twice, that’s a lot of cp to make the flayed ones able to do their job. Fight twice is a little iffy because there is a good chance you’re going to get smacked before your second opportunity. 20 bodies is a lot to get in swinging range. You’d only want to fight twice it if you were already buffed up. That’s a lot of resources. Strength 5 ap 2 makes a big difference but that’s a lot of work and there is plenty of things you’re just going to bounce off of. Also, you can only do this on one unit at a time. 4 cp to be good..is not good.
Now that we can’t have two dynasties in a list are you going novokh to make your flayers good (playable) or do you have to many other things in your army that want to be relentless expansionists? Are you building an entire army around flayed ones? The pregame move is probably more impactful on flayers than novokh anyway, you have to get there.
I agree that things that needed buffs didn’t get them.
I'd rather take the FO for RND at 6 per model. It's a lot harder to screen out a deepstrike than 5 Immortals telegraphed walking on from SR. It's also cheaper and doesn't cost any CP.
I always already have immortals in my list. In either a battalion or an outrider. Ppl like double patrols. My outrider elite slots are usually key parts of my army.
It’s not as cut and dry as cheaper points and native deepstrike.
That brings them into the conversation which is why we are talking about it but I don’t think they are going necessary.
Immortals are a mainstay unit that’s in most lists. They do the job perfectly well and their shooting is not insignificant in my melee lists.
If your opponent has to zone out large portions of their table edge to stop a few rod points that could be beneficial. By turn 3 people tend to have other things to worry about / less army.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you bring in two units of flayed ones turn 3. All they have to do is shoot your 6 man squads just a tiny little bit to make it pretty hard to hit the rnd roll.
It’s true for immortals but to a much less degree.
T4 with a 4+ will get rocked by pistols.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you’re doing a warrior heavy list. I agree completely. Flayed ones all the way.
Can you even perform actions the turn you arrive from strategic reserve? (Or is that just for large models) I am pumped about flayed ones obviously for ROD. Fighting again to me equates to extra movement to get on objectives or tie up other units. Our HQ choices should have seen a decrease as well. Troop choices are the only thing they have remotely closed and even if they would have dropped them down by 1 point no one would have cried out heresy. I am excited about the changes we can now afford to use models that give us a better chance of winning.
You can do an action after you come in from reserves.
The problem is all your strategic reserves have to come on by turn 3. So if you got the easy two on your table side turns 1 and 2 then you need to get the last two in turns 3 and 4.
So two units comes in, one does the action and the other has to survive a turn to do their own action.
That’s not the best way to do it but just how it shakes out sometimes.
Ideally you want to get the harder zones first and then you’re reserves are just gravy. Can come in on your table side if you yeeted your army up the board.
Yeah, I was thinking of building a list around Flayed Ones, I've done it at 13 PPM, it'll be much better at 10 PPM. 1000 points in DS with Flayed Ones and Ophydians, SK and Anrakyr for the dreams of Knight obliteration and some Immortals for actions.
At the top end you've got 200 Attacks hitting on 3+ (effectively 2+ vs non-vehicles) S6 re-roll to wound AP-2 (-3 on 6s to wound) Damage 1 on 200 points of Flayed Ones with all the bell and whistles. 180 pts of Skorpekhs have 28 Attacks hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s S 8 re-roll to wound AP -4 (-5 on 6s) D2 and 12 Attacks hitting on 2+ re-rolling 1s S 10 re-roll to wound AP -5 (-6 on 6s) D3. Total damage potential is 200 vs 92. One destroys a unit, the other destroys an army. In terms of durability the Flayed Ones have access to -1 to hit and don't care about multi-damage weapons.
I already know Flayed One spam is going to be good, maybe even competitive, Skorpekhs are going to be competitive without a doubt but you hate the models so it's not like it's going to matter to you whether Flayed Ones turn out to be amazing. Like I mentioned, Skorpekhs was one of the units of ours that least needed a buff, it was already popular.
Novokh Troops buffed by Anrakyr can slap surprisingly hard, yes it's not ObSec Pre-game move but double ObSec is already a lot less of a buff than getting ObSec in the first place if you ask me.
The Reanimator has had its first top 4 in a GT, in a Nihilakh list no less. It's actually a pretty similar list to what I ran in my triple Reanimator list.
C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer [19 PL, 370pts]: Power of the C'tan: Gaze of Death, Power of the C'tan: Sky of Falling Stars, Scythe of the Nightbringer
C'tan Shard of the Void Dragon [18 PL, 350pts]: Canoptek Tail Blades, Power of the C'tan: Transdimensional Thunderbolt, Power of the C'tan: Voltaic Storm, Spear of the Void Dragon
C'tan Shard of the Void Dragon [18 PL, 350pts]: Canoptek Tail Blades, Power of the C'tan: Time's Arrow, Power of the C'tan: Voltaic Storm, Spear of the Void Dragon
Someone got top 4 with the CCB/Wraith/Failsafe combo. I can't imagine it'll continue seeing competitive play now that Skorpekhs and Ophydians are so cheap.
I think Flayed Ones want to be in Novokh and Lychguard want to have obsec and Heavy Lokhusts like Nephrek(if they reroll wounds). Hard to find a one fits all Dynasty.
Manchild 1984 wrote: I think Flayed Ones want to be in Novokh and Lychguard want to have obsec and Heavy Lokhusts like Nephrek(if they reroll wounds). Hard to find a one fits all Dynasty.
Heavy Lokhusts are okay with pre-game move, DS misses out on T1 shooting, not worth on Heavy Lokhusts I don't think, maybe on regular Lokhusts. Only Flayed One hordes want Novokh, just don't include a horde of Flayed Ones and ObSec becomes the obvious choice. I'm going to give Nihilakh a second chance, I'm just having a lot of trouble believing.
I think LHDs caught a pretty heavy nerf with the new actions that check unit size. If using one now I’d consider adding it to a unit of lokhusts rather than running it solo. Then you can just pop the strat on them to reroll wounds.
I’ve been looking at running two patrols. Maybe a better option is patrol plus vanguard. You’d have effectively limitless elite slots and only need one unit of immortals as troops.
Mandragola wrote: I think LHDs caught a pretty heavy nerf with the new actions that check unit size. If using one now I’d consider adding it to a unit of lokhusts rather than running it solo. Then you can just pop the strat on them to reroll wounds.
I’ve been looking at running two patrols. Maybe a better option is patrol plus vanguard. You’d have effectively limitless elite slots and only need one unit of immortals as troops.
worst case you could play 15 Immortals with vanguard + battalion
100 flayed ones are going to have tons of auto losses and no auto wins.
Lots of 2+ armor out there.
You can’t just count up your number of attacks and compare it to someone else’s number of attacks and act like that’s any kind of output comparison. Wounding is a thing, armor saves are a thing, multi damage is a thing.
What do you do going into t5 with a 2+ Save and 3 wounds, how many cp to get respectable output? What do the skorpekh do? What about t6 with a 3+?
The skorpekh have -1 to be wounded.
You will never, ever, ever get 100 flayed ones to swing. It’s not particularly reasonable to get a 20 man unit to get ALL OF their swings.
How are you going to deepstrike a unit the size of a dinner plate? It’s going to be where your opponent wants, not where you want.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think it sucks that gw made skorpekh auto includes.
18 skorpekh and a cpl plasmacytes is 570 points.
You could back that up with flayed ones but were talking 40 tops because you’ve got the rest of your list to build and it’s a tough metta out there.
Cauthon wrote: 100 flayed ones are going to have tons of auto losses and no auto wins.
Lots of 2+ armor out there.
You can’t just count up your number of attacks and compare it to someone else’s number of attacks and act like that’s any kind of output comparison. Wounding is a thing, armor saves are a thing, multi damage is a thing.
What do you do going into t5 with a 2+ Save and 3 wounds, how many cp to get respectable output? What do the skorpekh do? What about t6 with a 3+?
The skorpekh have -1 to be wounded.
You will never, ever, ever get 100 flayed ones to swing. It’s not particularly reasonable to get a 20 man unit to get ALL OF their swings.
How are you going to deepstrike a unit the size of a dinner plate? It’s going to be where your opponent wants, not where you want.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think it sucks that gw made skorpekh auto includes.
18 skorpekh and a cpl plasmacytes is 570 points.
You could back that up with flayed ones but were talking 40 tops because you’ve got the rest of your list to build and it’s a tough metta out there.
So, 60 Flayed ones is the max according to rule of 3.
With Novokh you have AP -2, and the unit with 2+ armor often times have a 4++ anyway. So that is perfect.
Damage 1 seems where Necrons have an advantage, so we should use it.
I was going 60 Flayed Ones and 15 Skorpekhs for 1050 points.
I was going 60 Flayed Ones and 15 Skorpekhs for 1050 points.
60 Flayed Ones are still a lot of bucks.
And Skorphekhs have no inv save.
Both choices seem semi-competitive, otherwise there is nothing wrong with it.
Cryptothralls are out for rod but action monkeys are still going to be at a premium. in
Obsec is even more of a necessity.
Some missions are meat grinders in the middle.
Impossible to make a list that plays into all the missions. Some require speed some penalize it.
Seems like the new missions are REALLY gonna shoehorn Necrons into Relentless Expansionist dynasty, and lots of small squads of flayed ones as obsec action monkeys in that dynasty.
I think we might see a meta shift toward nihilak. It still provides obsec but even before nachmund people were starting to go for this option over the eternal expansionist because the added defense is nice enough and moving out into no man's land isn't great if you're going second anyway.
Now one of the missions prevents you from using your pregame move regardless and with the focus of a lot of the secondaries being done by large troops choice squads something that we -for the most part- don't want to take that many of, the nihilak strat to perform an action and still being able to shoot could become a big deal for taking some of the pressure off your list in the struggle to balance things that do your secondaries with overall killing power.
It depends if we are talking casual pick up game play where you have a 1 in 9 chance to get any mission or tournament play where you'll have a 0% chance to get the three worst designed missions. The 6/7/8/9 round tournaments usually prefer to repeat good missions rather than touch the bad ones.
Janky missions that may be on the tournament chopping block:
11 - Where you need a pregame move or can't get 1 CP.
13 - Odd angles that many hate measuring out. Used to be in most tournaments as there were worse options.
21 - Banning pre game moves and having such a back loaded tertiary objective. Which is a shame as I love the map.
22 - Losing CP if you have a warlord who does things might prove unpopular.
My guess is on 11, 21 and 22 being dropped and maybe we are finally free from 13 too as you only need 5 for most tournaments.
EDIT: Although this could just be a UK thing, looks like LVO is playing all 9 current missions.
Had a couple of games with the new points trying out 20 Novokh Flayed ones with the King.
-They are absolute blenders -They can be pretty tough with -1 to hit, 5++, and an Orb of eternity -They can do some shenanigans with reanimation and the fight twice strat- stringing out reanimated models to get in charge range of stuff, fighting twice for 4 lots of 3" pile in/consolidate. -Because of these shenanigans opponents become hesitant to shoot at them.
I'll definitely be using them again, and they were so choppy that they might still work well in Eternal Expansionists.
Bonus lessons: Rail-Heads ain't that bad
My overall feeling on the points drops is that they don't do enough to boost existing Necron builds to a competitive level, and the only new builds they might promote is Flayed One spam, which probably won't be good enough.
My overall feeling on the points drops is that they don't do enough to boost existing Necron builds to a competitive level, and the only new builds they might promote is Flayed One spam, which probably won't be good enough.
Even in concert with other improvements of Necron units it will not suffice to play in the upper bracket in tourneys.
40kenthusiast wrote: I think the basic way is something like: Patrol + Vanguard,
Overlord w/veil or voltaic staff
second character with whichever relic overlord doesn't have
20 warriors w/reapers
2x thralls
2x min flayed ones
+ whatever you actually want to play the game with.
What are you taking Thralls for?
EightFoldPath wrote: It depends if we are talking casual pick up game play where you have a 1 in 9 chance to get any mission or tournament play where you'll have a 0% chance to get the three worst designed missions. The 6/7/8/9 round tournaments usually prefer to repeat good missions rather than touch the bad ones.
I was going to make the same point, checking the tournament pack is always important, it could be a 33% chance and then there is the added strategy in terms of whether it's the first, or final mission in the tournament and whether your personal goal is to go 3/2 or 5/0. Hopefully, we'll see a lot more top 4s with the buffs and nerfs that have gone around.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Had a couple of games with the new points trying out 20 Novokh Flayed ones with the King.
I saw Nanavati doing it on one of the Art of War streams, might be something to learn for anyone who is interested in doing something similar, assuming you're not Nanavati [quoteBonus lessons: Rail-Heads ain't that bad
Did you get hit by the 8 MW Strat? Did you have any good targets for the regular shot (non-C'tan monsters/vehicles without QS)?
I did get hit by the 8 MW strat, it went into Flayed Ones. The re-ans let me conga line out and charge fire warriors on their home objective.
I was running the Silent king and a Monolith. I got the jump on the Hammerheads before they could get a solid shot off. TSK only loses a Menhir anyway.
I am guessing you DS the Monolith to avoid shooting?
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I did get hit by the 8 MW strat, it went into Flayed Ones. The re-ans let me conga line out and charge fire warriors on their home objective.
The Stratagem is not an attack, so no Reanimation against the Stratagem.
Why would he have? Neither are very good, spamming heavy destroyers doesn’t make them more good. One or two could serve a purpose.
There is one guy running a single unit of three, he got called out by name. Not a metta pick.
Automatically Appended Next Post: He actually didn’t talk about spamming anything, all the units he put in the staple categories he was talking about taking one or maybe more of. Even his top choice the warriors, he’s good with just one squad of 20.
I thought he would say skorpeks all day but same thing.
vict0988 wrote: I am guessing you DS the Monolith to avoid shooting?
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I did get hit by the 8 MW strat, it went into Flayed Ones. The re-ans let me conga line out and charge fire warriors on their home objective.
The Stratagem is not an attack, so no Reanimation against the Stratagem.
Yeah Monolith dropped in and nuked a HHead.
I thought that might be the case with the submunition strat, but rather than look into it we decided that the big gun that shot my dudes was a shooting attack and carried on. It was the OOE reans that made the difference anyway.
vict0988 wrote: I am guessing you DS the Monolith to avoid shooting?
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I did get hit by the 8 MW strat, it went into Flayed Ones. The re-ans let me conga line out and charge fire warriors on their home objective.
The Stratagem is not an attack, so no Reanimation against the Stratagem.
Yeah Monolith dropped in and nuked a HHead.
I thought that might be the case with the submunition strat, but rather than look into it we decided that the big gun that shot my dudes was a shooting attack and carried on. It was the OOE reans that made the difference anyway.
Yeah, without a Reanimator they are only coming back on 5+ anyway, so less than 3 on average. The new mission set really rewards ObSec, if not for that I think Szarekhan would have a lot more going for it. Szarekhan Scarabs just don't care about mortal wounds one bit.
I am assuming we can take the Silent King in any dynasty due to the Dynastic Agent rule correct? The new rules will not force him to be in one dynasty.
Got an RTT coming up. Trying to decide between my recently buffed Necrons, and my as of yet untested Custodes with the new dex. Was thinking of this list since the core changes and points reductions really juiced it. Thoughts?
Spoiler:
Supreme Command Silent King
HQ Overlord, Voltaic Staff, Rez Orb, Implaccable Conqueror
Chronomancer Lance, Veil of Darkness
Technomancer with Cloak
Overlord, Chronomancer and Ghost Ark don't have much of a job in your list, 6 Skorpekhs only stick around so long, if you put the Voltaic Staff on your Cloaktek and replaced the Overlord with Scarabs or replace Wraiths with more Skorpekhs I could see the Chronomancer being more worthwhile. I think GA->DDA is an easy upgrade for 15 pts since you don't have any Warriors, alternatively, you could go with Tomb Blades which to pair well with SK.
You also forgot to list your Dynasty, I assume Szarekhan so your Cloaktek can heal SK. I really don't like SK Szarekhan melee lists because the SK melee buff and the Szarekhan trait have anti-synergy. A Tomb Blade/Scarab Swarm list makes more sense to me for that combination, otherwise I'd just give up on healing the SK and park the Cloaktek with a 3-man unit of Heavy Destroyers and a Doomsday Ark so he can do double-duty healing both.
If your Cloaktek won't be healing the Heavy Destroyers they might be better off split into loners to make better use of the Szarekhan trait. I'm not sure how many things Flayed Ones can do without ObSec or being 6-strong.
I didn’t mean they were to buff praetorians. The silent king takes care of that.
That was two separate bullet points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Correction. Praetorians can’t ride in the nightscythe or use the strat to port out of it.
I still like them with the silent king though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You could replace 8 praetorians for 7 lychguard. May be objectively better but I just like the praetorians as a strike squad. Feels good with the silent king.
Or the praetorians for a doom scythe and cortical subjugator scarabs.
5 to avoid Blast or 6 to maximize the benefit of MWBD and Overcharger. I'd rather have 7 Scarabs, 6 Flayed Ones or 3 Skorpekhs than 3 Wraiths because Scarabs are tougher, Flayed Ones and Skorpekhs have more actions available to them and are cheaper.
You can find a top 4 with every number of Wraiths, 5 and 6 seems more popular though. I actually also think 3-man Ophydians have some play now, for when you just need to kill something small and don't want to devote more than 90 pts but still want it gone.
wuestenfux wrote: Overall win ratio of Necrons at LVO was 48%. Not very promising.
48% is pretty much right in the sweet spot of where an army should be. Why do you think it's problematic?
It's true there are armies out there with win rates above 60%, but the problem there lies with those armies rather than with the ones hovering around the 50% mark.
Quick question, I'm learning to play Necrons but encountered an opponent while playing against them last night who said that there had been a recent FAQ which protected Necrons from the No Prisoners secondary.
He said that you don't score now for models which reanimate.
I'm not one for rule checking in friendly games, so I took his word for it, but I can't find this FAQ anywhere.
Crafter91 wrote: Quick question, I'm learning to play Necrons but encountered an opponent while playing against them last night who said that there had been a recent FAQ which protected Necrons from the No Prisoners secondary.
He said that you don't score now for models which reanimate.
I'm not one for rule checking in friendly games, so I took his word for it, but I can't find this FAQ anywhere.
Was he Bull sh***ing me?
Short answer: yes. Slightly longer answer: yes, and the text of the secondary itself even specifically mentions what happens with resurrecting models.
Crafter91 wrote: Quick question, I'm learning to play Necrons but encountered an opponent while playing against them last night who said that there had been a recent FAQ which protected Necrons from the No Prisoners secondary.
He said that you don't score now for models which reanimate.
I'm not one for rule checking in friendly games, so I took his word for it, but I can't find this FAQ anywhere.
Was he Bull sh***ing me?
Short answer: yes. Slightly longer answer: yes, and the text of the secondary itself even specifically mentions what happens with resurrecting models.
That's exactly what I thought but I know how harsh the secondary is on Necrons so it seemed plausible - and in the context of a friendly game i'm not one to question or accuse people of lying.
I still took the secondary and scored 8 from it but almost definitely would have maxed it had it been scored correctly.
there were armies with (eventually) higher expectations (this one went 3-3)
Spoiler:
Very hard skew list consisting of 3 doomsday arks, 3 tesseract arks, 2 doom scythes, a triarch stalker, a transcendent c'tan, and a CCB with voltaic staff.
there were armies with (eventually) higher expectations (this one went 3-3)
Spoiler:
Very hard skew list consisting of 3 doomsday arks, 3 tesseract arks, 2 doom scythes, a triarch stalker, a transcendent c'tan, and a CCB with voltaic staff.
Any system with such a high level skim (e.g., Top8 out of hundreds) will always skew Top8s toward the broken builds, since only undefeated records make it in, basically.
Any system with such a high level skim (e.g., Top8 out of hundreds) will always skew Top8s toward the broken builds, since only undefeated records make it in, basically.
Not only undefeated but also with high score wins.
Why do people do this? A simple yes or no would have sufficed but instead, you chose to answer the question in a fashion that makes me question your character. If your intentions were pure you would have said no, but instead, you answered read and find out, bad attitude from you is shocking as you are someone who always offers good advice.
I think if we change the d6 damage on some of our units to d3 + 3 we will be seriously competitive. We need all of our HQ units to become 15-30 points cheaper, a Command Barge should not cost me 30 more points than a chaplain on a bike.
I think if we change the d6 damage on some of our units to d3 + 3 we will be seriously competitive. We need all of our HQ units to become 15-30 points cheaper, a Command Barge should not cost me 30 more points than a chaplain on a bike.
you could swap all heavy support to heavy lokhust and all HQ to Technomancers
I think if we change the d6 damage on some of our units to d3 + 3 we will be seriously competitive. We need all of our HQ units to become 15-30 points cheaper, a Command Barge should not cost me 30 more points than a chaplain on a bike.
you could swap all heavy support to heavy lokhust and all HQ to Technomancers
With covid not as bad and ITC partnering with GW I plan on giving quote on quote competitive 40k a try this year. I will be using Necrons I want the number one faction ranking for the Necrons. Yes, heavy lokhust destroyers are good but C'tan weapons should be d3 + 3 and our Doomsday weapons definitely should be d3 + 3, and our HQ choices need to come down. Despite all of this I think I will be able to compete with any army, I have to start playing 2 or more games a week though, thank god for TTS.
Why do people do this? A simple yes or no would have sufficed but instead, you chose to answer the question in a fashion that makes me question your character. If your intentions were pure you would have said no, but instead, you answered read and find out, bad attitude from you is shocking as you are someone who always offers good advice.
Sorry, but I was not 100 percent sure.
Evidence can be found in the army lists.
Why do people do this? A simple yes or no would have sufficed but instead, you chose to answer the question in a fashion that makes me question your character. If your intentions were pure you would have said no, but instead, you answered read and find out, bad attitude from you is shocking as you are someone who always offers good advice.
Sorry, but I was not 100 percent sure.
Evidence can be found in the army lists.
Gotcha! :thumbs-up: The article was a good read and a nice in-depth look at the top list at LVO.
Just in case you wanna know, considering are you seeing necron armies that did well in LVO.
I played necrons and I won 5 and lost 1. I was the best necron in the tournament.
I won against Genestealer Cult, Sister of Battle, two Grey Knights and a Custode.
I lost against Tyranids Stampide. That game was impossible to win, I am afraid...
I was very happy with my list, and with the new points, I do think necron has a real change to win!!!
Just in case you wanna know, considering are you seeing necron armies that did well in LVO.
I played necrons and I won 5 and lost 1. I was the best necron in the tournament.
I won against Genestealer Cult, Sister of Battle, two Grey Knights and a Custode.
I lost against Tyranids Stampide. That game was impossible to win, I am afraid...
I was very happy with my list, and with the new points, I do think necron has a real change to win!!!
This is a very interesting list! What was your main path to victory? Move onto OBJ's round 1 and be hard to kill? Would love to take my tomb blades off the shelf for once
Just in case you wanna know, considering are you seeing necron armies that did well in LVO.
I played necrons and I won 5 and lost 1. I was the best necron in the tournament.
I won against Genestealer Cult, Sister of Battle, two Grey Knights and a Custode.
I lost against Tyranids Stampide. That game was impossible to win, I am afraid...
I was very happy with my list, and with the new points, I do think necron has a real change to win!!!
The Silent King [23 PL, 3CP, 450pts]
. 2x Triarchal Menhir: 2x Annihilator Beam
++ Total: [106 PL, 12CP, 2,000pts] ++
Congrats on playing well and representing the Necrons at LVO! Why do you feel the Tyranid matchup was so hard? I mean I understand the - 1 damage made your wraiths not as effective but do you think with heavy lokhust destroyers you can change the match up issue?
Congrats on the performance and placement!
List is quite in line with the armies fielding TSK.
Wraiths are definitely useful due to their inv save.
Units used synergize well.
Congrats on playing well and representing the Necrons at LVO! Why do you feel the Tyranid matchup was so hard? I mean I understand the - 1 damage made your wraiths not as effective but do you think with heavy lokhust destroyers you can change the match up issue?
Yes, the matchup with Tyranids was hard because my list did not have enough anti-monsters. He had a lot of monster (2 hyerodrules, 2 dimachaeron, swarmlord, tirant with wings, 6 hive guards, etc.), a lot of multi-wound damage, a lot of mortals, very fast, and everything with R8 5++ -1D. So, I literally killed just one monster and he killed almost all my army in T3 ...
But, with the new points, I am going to play a list with 6 lokhust heavy destroyers + 2 menhirs, so, I do think the problem against spam of vehicles and monsters is finally solved.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One question.
After the last FAQ I did not see anything about the problem of the one dynasty.
Do we have to set all the army in Szharekan dynasty in case we wanna play with the Silent King? Or, because He is Dynastic Agent, the Szharekan detachment that he uses does not count on the new rule?
"named characters have a pre-selected keyword, but are exempt from the restriction" Warhammer Community aka not a rules-based answer but we've seen people playing the new missions using SK in other dynasties.
I think maybe having 2x6 Skorpekhs could help punch through -1D because then you'll have 2 guys in each unit that have more than damage 1 and can get S8+ with Strats and stuff. Maybe Ophydians as well, against T8 the breakpoints are 5 and 8, getting from 5 to 8 is hard, getting from 4 to 5 is easy and the little Ophydian claws being D1 is not a downside. A big ole block of Flayed Ones will probably scissor up a monster as well if they get SK support.
The dreaded Reanimator-buffed Scarabs come. RP should have never been on a wound basis, but on a dead/alive basis just like 8th, the way it currently works is tedious.
vict0988 wrote: "named characters have a pre-selected keyword, but are exempt from the restriction" Warhammer Community aka not a rules-based answer but we've seen people playing the new missions using SK in other dynasties.
I think maybe having 2x6 Skorpekhs could help punch through -1D because then you'll have 2 guys in each unit that have more than damage 1 and can get S8+ with Strats and stuff. Maybe Ophydians as well, against T8 the breakpoints are 5 and 8, getting from 5 to 8 is hard, getting from 4 to 5 is easy and the little Ophydian claws being D1 is not a downside. A big ole block of Flayed Ones will probably scissor up a monster as well if they get SK support.
The dreaded Reanimator-buffed Scarabs come. RP should have never been on a wound basis, but on a dead/alive basis just like 8th, the way it currently works is tedious.
I don't like units of 6. I would prefer units of 5. No moral test, you can spread at maximum possible the units, no blast, etc.
I do think with the lokust destroyer we have now something against them.
I am so fething sick of gw screwing necrons and giving other factions things they took from us.
Eldar get shuriken weapons that have a mechanic that should have been used for gauss....now they get our old rules for the death ray? Not to mention, at one point, death guard got the fnp crons used to have. Tired of it.
Rant over.
I'm probably getting my hopes up, but there are rumors that the space marines are getting a new codex....so maybe crons might at some point in 2022? Doubtful, but maybe.
In the mean time I want to get some games in. Which factions has everyone found to be most difficult for necrons to have an even chance against?
Shuriken weapons always had Rending, in the past it was "counts as AP2" and i believe they had a rule where they didnt get the extra D3 for vehicle armor pen'ing. The new eldar Shuriken is more rounded so it has AP built in but 6s still have a lot of AP.
Deathguard, or Nurgle in general, literally always had a FNP until recently. Necrons only had it in 7th edition and it was pretty dumb.
vict0988 wrote: "named characters have a pre-selected keyword, but are exempt from the restriction" Warhammer Community aka not a rules-based answer but we've seen people playing the new missions using SK in other dynasties.
I think maybe having 2x6 Skorpekhs could help punch through -1D because then you'll have 2 guys in each unit that have more than damage 1 and can get S8+ with Strats and stuff. Maybe Ophydians as well, against T8 the breakpoints are 5 and 8, getting from 5 to 8 is hard, getting from 4 to 5 is easy and the little Ophydian claws being D1 is not a downside. A big ole block of Flayed Ones will probably scissor up a monster as well if they get SK support.
The dreaded Reanimator-buffed Scarabs come. RP should have never been on a wound basis, but on a dead/alive basis just like 8th, the way it currently works is tedious.
I mainly play Novokh with 2 units of Skorpekhs and they do the work against stampede.
Considering the mobility and firepower of the new Tau dex. How do we respond to something with a 39 inch threat range turn 1? (3 Devilfish Full of 10 Breachers)
My initial idea would be always grabbing the light cover protocol turn 1 in case. But I know the breach and clear strat will ignore cover, and then we're basically not getting saves on our warriors.
It seems that kind of firepower will also mulch scarab screens if we can't get out 5++ chrono buffs up. Ideas?
I don’t like to be negative but it’s pretty hard coming up with a list that plays well into the metta.
This isn’t codex creep these new books are coming through like the cool-aid man.
We just don’t have the survivability anymore..which is our thing. Yeah play the mission but you can’t if you’re dead..
There is no answer to tau. There’s nothing we can take that won’t get absolutely smoked. I don’t think we could even tailor into tau, what would that even look like?
9th would be such a great edition if every other army was the same power level as the Necron codex. As for our points drops, I thought Flayed Ones were already quite good, now I think they're excellent. Just a shame GW are so obnoxious about their pricing
Vineheart01 wrote: Shuriken weapons always had Rending, in the past it was "counts as AP2" and i believe they had a rule where they didnt get the extra D3 for vehicle armor pen'ing. The new eldar Shuriken is more rounded so it has AP built in but 6s still have a lot of AP.
Deathguard, or Nurgle in general, literally always had a FNP until recently. Necrons only had it in 7th edition and it was pretty dumb.
My point is that the shuriken weapons were updated in an applicable way. Gauss weapons weren't. The necron fnp may have been "dumb" to you, but it was at least effective. The RP we have now doesn't add enough durability to justify the costs we pay for it. The 5 inch movement and midrange weaponry isn't helping things either.
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Cauthon wrote: I don’t like to be negative but it’s pretty hard coming up with a list that plays well into the metta.
This isn’t codex creep these new books are coming through like the cool-aid man.
We just don’t have the survivability anymore..which is our thing. Yeah play the mission but you can’t if you’re dead..
There is no answer to tau. There’s nothing we can take that won’t get absolutely smoked.
The older codexes definitely aren't reflected on when making new ones, so we see huge power creep. The rules-writers seem more like fanboys than professionals to me.
I've just decided that I'm going to play casual games and avoid "that guy". I don't mind a challenge or even some unbalanced matches, but I don't like showing up to be someone's punching bag.
Every time ive taken the RW his ability is pointless.
Every time something i'd want to fall back with is in combat if they survive its only a couple of dudes anyway. And since the HQ slot is highly contested, i just leave him alone now.
On the relic topic i like putting the Volatic Staff on a technomancer. Its pretty good and the base weapon it replaces is kinda garbage lol.
It is only 18" though so its not first-pick for relics.
My biggest problem with the RW is the HQ slot he takes up. The ability is OK (though made worse thanks to the VoD, as noted above) but the cost plus slot means he's way down the list of priorities for me.
That actually sums up the Necron HQ problem in general. We've got a bunch of must-takes and then a whole lot of options that are OK at best, but which rarely see play because by the time you've taken the must-takes there's just no space for anything else.
For relics, I agree the list is quite short. VoD and Voltaic Staff are the most common ones for me. I like the staff for boosting the damage output of a Cryptek but it's also pretty decent on a Lord/Overlord. The Orb is good but I find I often lack opportunities to use it in my games.
Should suffice.
Don't overextend the veiled unit (unless you can place it in a blind spot) such that it can get fire support from other units of your army.
What are peoples' thoughts on CCB v overlords at the moment? I feel the CCB never needed a price hike, and now that there are so much more core, the most important factor for me is MWBD. The overlord can hand out MWBD almost as well as the CCB, as long as you plan your positioning carefully. That further drops the stock for CCB for me. Thoughts?
teamtigerstripe wrote: What are peoples' thoughts on CCB v overlords at the moment? I feel the CCB never needed a price hike, and now that there are so much more core, the most important factor for me is MWBD. The overlord can hand out MWBD almost as well as the CCB, as long as you plan your positioning carefully. That further drops the stock for CCB for me. Thoughts?
CCB is a must-have in my Necron army.
I usually play a fast HQ in an otherwise lumbering army.
CCB is a one-man wrecking machine if let loose.
teamtigerstripe wrote: What are peoples' thoughts on CCB v overlords at the moment? I feel the CCB never needed a price hike, and now that there are so much more core, the most important factor for me is MWBD. The overlord can hand out MWBD almost as well as the CCB, as long as you plan your positioning carefully. That further drops the stock for CCB for me. Thoughts?
I dropped the CCB to an Overlord when it got its initial price increase. With the decreases I'm now probably putting it back in. I like the extra wounds, extra gun and extra movement so it's a pretty useful addition to the army for me.
teamtigerstripe wrote: What are peoples' thoughts on CCB v overlords at the moment? I feel the CCB never needed a price hike, and now that there are so much more core, the most important factor for me is MWBD. The overlord can hand out MWBD almost as well as the CCB, as long as you plan your positioning carefully. That further drops the stock for CCB for me. Thoughts?
I like CCB with voltaic staff, really cool in a list where you need MWBD for a fast element like Wraiths or TBs and being able to shoot the voltaic staff in melee is pretty cool. Foot Overlord is fine for supporting Skorpekhs or Lokhusts. I'd probably just get a regular Lord if I was just paying the Command Protocols tax and neither in a SK list.
The CCB + Voltaic Staff + Gauss Cannon certainly makes a decent melee speedbump and shooting platform to clear small 5 man squads holding objectives. Its also fast enough to get where it needs to go to support.
Something else to remember... the CCB can shoot in combat, it is a vehicle after all. So in essence you get a really nice brick of a platform (with Enduring Will) that can front a lot of damage and deal it back on the next round.
CCB looks a lot less good once you see what everyone else gets in the HQ slot for 160 points, 1 relic and 1 warlord trait.
160 - Tau Commander with 3 Fusion Blasters, Shield Gen, punchy fist and re-roll all their hits and wounds in all phases.
175 - Dark Angel Talonmaster with twin HB, twin AC, relic sword, melee trait.
150 - TSon Exalted on Disc with 3 MW powers and a relic/trait to help them cast.
160 - Trajan Valoris, hilarious.
Shows off the overcosted chassis of the CCB, the lacklustre relics and the somehow even less impressive warlord traits on offer. Would you rather have a trait that gives re-roll wounds in combat or re-roll hits and wounds in both shooting and combat?
EightFoldPath wrote: CCB looks a lot less good once you see what everyone else gets in the HQ slot for 160 points, 1 relic and 1 warlord trait.
160 - Tau Commander with 3 Fusion Blasters, Shield Gen, punchy fist and re-roll all their hits and wounds in all phases.
175 - Dark Angel Talonmaster with twin HB, twin AC, relic sword, melee trait.
150 - TSon Exalted on Disc with 3 MW powers and a relic/trait to help them cast.
160 - Trajan Valoris, hilarious.
Shows off the overcosted chassis of the CCB, the lacklustre relics and the somehow even less impressive warlord traits on offer. Would you rather have a trait that gives re-roll wounds in combat or re-roll hits and wounds in both shooting and combat?
This is really why I asked in the first place. I do think the Necron codex still have pricing issues, not even looking at the stats/ability issues. I do appreciate all of your thoughts on the CCB, and it definitely seems to be a common addition to everyone who responded, but I still feel like it is a bit of a tax.
EightFoldPath wrote: CCB looks a lot less good once you see what everyone else gets in the HQ slot for 160 points, 1 relic and 1 warlord trait.
160 - Tau Commander with 3 Fusion Blasters, Shield Gen, punchy fist and re-roll all their hits and wounds in all phases.
175 - Dark Angel Talonmaster with twin HB, twin AC, relic sword, melee trait.
150 - TSon Exalted on Disc with 3 MW powers and a relic/trait to help them cast.
160 - Trajan Valoris, hilarious.
Shows off the overcosted chassis of the CCB, the lacklustre relics and the somehow even less impressive warlord traits on offer. Would you rather have a trait that gives re-roll wounds in combat or re-roll hits and wounds in both shooting and combat?
-1 damage and permanent transhuman is pretty cool IMO, he doesn't look bad next to a Talonmaster. Voltaic staff and Veil of Darkness are two of the best relics in the game. The Tau WL trait is insane, but a Commander is a lot squishier than a CCB.
I agree there is a tax on Nobles, but I think the Noble tax is worth paying to get Command Protocols if you're not running SK. I think they are all about equally overpriced. It barely matters that our HQs aren't worth it, if you really want to run 2 nobles that is not going to tank your list on its own.
Manchild 1984 wrote: I think the Royal warden would be worse as an Elite, where the 3 units or Skorpekh and Flayed ones live.
Mostly agree, I think he would be slightly less crowded out in Elites than HQs, but only very slightly.
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teamtigerstripe wrote: This is really why I asked in the first place. I do think the Necron codex still have pricing issues, not even looking at the stats/ability issues. I do appreciate all of your thoughts on the CCB, and it definitely seems to be a common addition to everyone who responded, but I still feel like it is a bit of a tax.
You do want to take at least one noble for MWBD and some slight use of protocols, so the extra cost over an Overlord isn't too bad. Maybe the best tax unit out of the nobles is the way to think of him?
-1 damage and permanent transhuman is pretty cool IMO, he doesn't look bad next to a Talonmaster. Voltaic staff and Veil of Darkness are two of the best relics in the game. The Tau WL trait is insane, but a Commander is a lot squishier than a CCB.
I agree there is a tax on Nobles, but I think the Noble tax is worth paying to get Command Protocols if you're not running SK. I think they are all about equally overpriced. It barely matters that our HQs aren't worth it, if you really want to run 2 nobles that is not going to tank your list on its own.
I am not saying those traits are not useful, but they simply are not good compared to other competitive choices. For instance, the -1 dmg trait is probably our best warlord trait in my opinion. That is quickly becoming a very common side rule to many other competitive models: the new Avatar (which is a better version of this, but similar in effect in many instances), crusher stampede, dreadnoughts, the entirety of Deathguard...
Permanent transhuman, I will give you as certainly a very strong ability, but again, like the -1 dmg, it is not that uncommon even if some people have to pay a CP for it. the fact that you have to pay 2 CP for phaeron more than evens out this benefit in my opinion.
I do love the voltaic staff, but I think it is far from being one of the best relics in the game. I think it is solidly in the bottom of the good relics in the game. The VoD probably is toward the high end, you are right, but when is the last time you put that on a CCB and not a cryptek?
What I am really saying is that I feel like CCBs (and Overlords really) are a tax because we need MWBD and command protocols. If we need to include them, then I wish they had a few better options or were more competitive in their own right.
In my opinion. The CCB gives you so much more value over the overlord on foot. If he’s trying to buff quicker units like wraiths or skorpkh, the ccb is an absolute must. If he’s just going to be chilling with some warriors or lychguard then you could probably go with the economic option.
I feel that Necron still suffer quite heavy from early-codex-syndrome. Compare out units to similar picks from other books and you will find a lot of frustration. As we are no Marines I see little to no odds for a Necron 2.0 dex. With current design approaches, I would expect several units simply to have other rules. I had several matchups which all ended up with opponents simply stomping my crons. The edition hit once again the point at which Necrons are no fun to play, and sadly cost reductions and core buff changed little.
I agree that the CCB is overpriced, the small increase last year was ridiculous as it was on the NB and Chronomancer. Personally I think a base CCB is worth 125 points.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: I feel that Necron still suffer quite heavy from early-codex-syndrome. Compare out units to similar picks from other books and you will find a lot of frustration. As we are no Marines I see little to no odds for a Necron 2.0 dex. With current design approaches, I would expect several units simply to have other rules. I had several matchups which all ended up with opponents simply stomping my crons. The edition hit once again the point at which Necrons are no fun to play, and sadly cost reductions and core buff changed little.
I think it's too easy to blame being early. In 8th we were one of the later codexes to be released and it was possibly the weakest book of the whole edition. I just don't think the GW rules team "gets" Necrons, and there definitely isn't a fan amongst them - whereas with other armies it's obvious to see who are favourites within the team.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: I feel that Necron still suffer quite heavy from early-codex-syndrome. Compare out units to similar picks from other books and you will find a lot of frustration. As we are no Marines I see little to no odds for a Necron 2.0 dex. With current design approaches, I would expect several units simply to have other rules. I had several matchups which all ended up with opponents simply stomping my crons. The edition hit once again the point at which Necrons are no fun to play, and sadly cost reductions and core buff changed little.
Strength of Necrons in the 8th ed came from the Decurion formation.
Decurion kept my army alive at several occasions even when it came under heavy fire.
There is nothing like this in the current edition and GW will hardly revive something like a Decurion in the current state of the game.
Only a significant improvement would bring Necrons on par with the tier 1/2 armies.
Nevertheless Necrons is still fun to play.
But in tourneys you will barely end up in the upper bracket.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: I feel that Necron still suffer quite heavy from early-codex-syndrome. Compare out units to similar picks from other books and you will find a lot of frustration. As we are no Marines I see little to no odds for a Necron 2.0 dex. With current design approaches, I would expect several units simply to have other rules. I had several matchups which all ended up with opponents simply stomping my crons. The edition hit once again the point at which Necrons are no fun to play, and sadly cost reductions and core buff changed little.
Strength of Necrons in the 8th ed came from the Decurion formation.
Decurion kept my army alive at several occasions even when it came under heavy fire.
There is nothing like this in the current edition and GW will hardly revive something like a Decurion in the current state of the game.
Only a significant improvement would bring Necrons on par with the tier 1/2 armies.
Nevertheless Necrons is still fun to play.
But in tourneys you will barely end up in the upper bracket.
Decurion was 7th.
8th crons were bad until they were point reduced so far down they became viable again.
i dont think the Warden would have a problem in Elites.
Battalions give you 6 Elite slots, and unless youre running no heavies/FA and/or running min squads of the other elites, those 6 slots arent usually filled (least for me) since they arent cheap and their supporting units arent other elites.
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: I feel that Necron still suffer quite heavy from early-codex-syndrome. Compare out units to similar picks from other books and you will find a lot of frustration. As we are no Marines I see little to no odds for a Necron 2.0 dex. With current design approaches, I would expect several units simply to have other rules. I had several matchups which all ended up with opponents simply stomping my crons. The edition hit once again the point at which Necrons are no fun to play, and sadly cost reductions and core buff changed little.
Strength of Necrons in the 8th ed came from the Decurion formation.
Decurion kept my army alive at several occasions even when it came under heavy fire.
There is nothing like this in the current edition and GW will hardly revive something like a Decurion in the current state of the game.
Only a significant improvement would bring Necrons on par with the tier 1/2 armies.
Nevertheless Necrons is still fun to play.
But in tourneys you will barely end up in the upper bracket.
Decurion was 7th.
8th crons were bad until they were point reduced so far down they became viable again.
Indeed, this was 7th ed.
This was the time when I brought Necrons to tourneys.
They were hard to defeat that time.
At that time Necrons were Tier 1 or 2. Now they are lowest Tier (Tier 4, see Goonhammer, end of 2021).
I think honestly the best thing for Crons right now is likely to get a rules patch via a Regiment of Renown type formation, giving them a new layer of rules or something. I don't know what form that would take.
iGuy91 wrote: I think honestly the best thing for Crons right now is likely to get a rules patch via a Regiment of Renown type formation, giving them a new layer of rules or something. I don't know what form that would take.
That, or its just further sustained point cuts.
RP of 4+ instead of 5+ would definitely help a lot.
But this won't happen in this edition.
iGuy91 wrote: I think honestly the best thing for Crons right now is likely to get a rules patch via a Regiment of Renown type formation, giving them a new layer of rules or something. I don't know what form that would take.
That, or its just further sustained point cuts.
RP of 4+ instead of 5+ would definitely help a lot.
But this won't happen in this edition.
4+ reanimations would be too good, but rerolling 1s across the board would help.
Bracketed reanimations would be doable though. Something like the following?
wounds characteristic of 1 is one dice on 5+ rerolling 1s
wounds characteristic up to 3 you have to successfully roll 2D6 per mini.
wounds of 4 or more would be 3D6 per mini.
being able to roll for reanimations after the last model in the unit dies would also be nice - i know it helps the attacker but theoretically i don't know why it stops at that stage.
iGuy91 wrote: I think honestly the best thing for Crons right now is likely to get a rules patch via a Regiment of Renown type formation, giving them a new layer of rules or something. I don't know what form that would take.
That, or its just further sustained point cuts.
RP of 4+ instead of 5+ would definitely help a lot.
But this won't happen in this edition.
4+ reanimations would be too good, but rerolling 1s across the board would help.
Bracketed reanimations would be doable though. Something like the following?
wounds characteristic of 1 is one dice on 5+ rerolling 1s
wounds characteristic up to 3 you have to successfully roll 2D6 per mini.
wounds of 4 or more would be 3D6 per mini.
being able to roll for reanimations after the last model in the unit dies would also be nice - i know it helps the attacker but theoretically i don't know why it stops at that stage.
A more ingenuous implementation of the RP would be highly welcome such as a bracketed RP.
Point reductions have been done recently and they don't seem to have much influence on the game.
You don't own The Silent King, 60 Flayed Ones and 18 Skorpekhs already? Well, for the low low GW price of £680 RRP you too can have 1,560 points of well balanced goodness.
Necrons just got a top 3 (pretty sure it was Adepticon) and they've had tonnes of top 4s in 9th. I don't know what was in the list. Even if Necrons are the worst army in the game proposed rules should go in the relevant forum, rather than the tactics thread, because we cannot shape our tactics around homebrew, wishlisting or rumours.
wuestenfux wrote: How good we are with 3x20 Flayed Ones?
Looks like an invasion from the enemy's point of view.
But its a lot of bucks.
I think 18 wraith moving 20" first turn sounds better. 6" pregame move, +12" move, +1" protocol, +1" from overlord.
Indeed, I guess so.
Moreover, behind 3x6 Wraiths you can field three units of Lychguard so that one Wraith unit can be deployed in front of a Lychguard unit.
Simple tactics is that a Wraith unit takes on an enemy unit asap. After one round of combat, the Wraiths withdraw and move forward and the Lychguard unit behind charges the unit left behind.
I'm not sure you take Flayed Ones for melee damage. They are just 10 point objective swampers (with the obsec chapter tactic). T4 4+ with RP and a good reactive strategem (-1 to be hit) that can be used to alter the maths of your opponent.
That is kind of the issue for Skorpekhs vs Wraiths. I love the 5 points cheaper part, but the first turn pre charge threat is 4" less at 16" not 20". But again, they've got my favourite kind of strategem, the reactive kind, with -1 to wound. I think both are a good option and they are close. I like being INFANTRY for actions on turn 1 (if not just running up the board) and light cover.
EightFoldPath wrote: You don't own The Silent King, 60 Flayed Ones and 18 Skorpekhs already? Well, for the low low GW price of £680 RRP you too can have 1,560 points of well balanced goodness.
I see Silent King as affordable (because 420 points)
Manchild 1984 wrote: has anyone tried 3 command barges with to the last? (no unit more expensive then 190 points)
I think that's the only unit I never tried to spam. But the Orbs aren't really worth it on a 190 pt unit, so you're paying a 90 pt tax to do it. I think it might be easier to make it work without the Orbs and just limiting yourself to 160 pt units.
I am almost certain you'd be better off with a Technomancer to back up the single CCB and finding different secondaries to run, you could run 3x6 Flayed Ones to do actions and stuff like that and if you were planning to run the 3x6 Flayed Ones anyway then your list is going to be really light on damage output I imagine.
If you don't want to test it yourself I can do it, but I don't play against competitive lists so I can only compare internally and give you a better idea of whether further testing is worth doing on your own.
Catacomb of Terror (Relentless Conquerors CCB spam board control list)
Manchild 1984 wrote: has anyone tried 3 command barges with to the last? (no unit more expensive then 190 points)
What will you achieve with 3 CCBs?
I regularly field one of these beauties and this is fully enough.
You can use them to bolster an assault or as one-man wrecking machine against weaker units.
Three of them is about 600 pts and a big chunk of your army with no real impact (shooting and cc).
Manchild 1984 wrote: has anyone tried 3 command barges with to the last? (no unit more expensive then 190 points)
What will you achieve with 3 CCBs?
I regularly field one of these beauties and this is fully enough.
You can use them to bolster an assault or as one-man wrecking machine against weaker units.
Three of them is about 600 pts and a big chunk of your army with no real impact (shooting and cc).
Agreed. One is handy for the extra shots to finish off things that are almost dead and you can take on smaller units in CC with them too. Having more than one doesn't seem worth it, even before you get to the point of thinking about opportunity cost.
Manchild 1984 wrote: has anyone tried 3 command barges with to the last? (no unit more expensive then 190 points)
What will you achieve with 3 CCBs?
I regularly field one of these beauties and this is fully enough.
You can use them to bolster an assault or as one-man wrecking machine against weaker units.
Three of them is about 600 pts and a big chunk of your army with no real impact (shooting and cc).
Agreed. One is handy for the extra shots to finish off things that are almost dead and you can take on smaller units in CC with them too. Having more than one doesn't seem worth it, even before you get to the point of thinking about opportunity cost.
Manchild 1984 wrote: has anyone tried 3 command barges with to the last? (no unit more expensive then 190 points)
What will you achieve with 3 CCBs?
I regularly field one of these beauties and this is fully enough.
You can use them to bolster an assault or as one-man wrecking machine against weaker units.
Three of them is about 600 pts and a big chunk of your army with no real impact (shooting and cc).
Agreed. One is handy for the extra shots to finish off things that are almost dead and you can take on smaller units in CC with them too. Having more than one doesn't seem worth it, even before you get to the point of thinking about opportunity cost.
CKO wrote: Minus 1 to hit or wound stratagems hurt them a lot as each attack is very important for them.
That's broscience advice, mathematically you can hardly find a faction that cares less than Custodes, if you tried taking Doomscythes against them you'd be in for a really bad time and they will cut Skorpekhs up for breakfast with S6 in melee. Chronomancer buffed Warriors with gauss reapers are pretty hard to remove for Custodes and have a really good profile against them. The 6+++ makes MW slightly worse than they used to be, still pretty good.
Manchild 1984 wrote: has anyone tried 3 command barges with to the last? (no unit more expensive then 190 points)
What will you achieve with 3 CCBs?
I regularly field one of these beauties and this is fully enough.
You can use them to bolster an assault or as one-man wrecking machine against weaker units.
Three of them is about 600 pts and a big chunk of your army with no real impact (shooting and cc).
Agreed. One is handy for the extra shots to finish off things that are almost dead and you can take on smaller units in CC with them too. Having more than one doesn't seem worth it, even before you get to the point of thinking about opportunity cost.
What is there besides opportunity cost?
Actual cost, for one. General effectiveness. 1 is almost always useful. 2+? Not so sure. Like, what do the second and third one actually do?
CKO wrote: Minus 1 to hit or wound stratagems hurt them a lot as each attack is very important for them.
That's broscience advice, mathematically you can hardly find a faction that cares less than Custodes, if you tried taking Doomscythes against them you'd be in for a really bad time and they will cut Skorpekhs up for breakfast with S6 in melee. Chronomancer buffed Warriors with gauss reapers are pretty hard to remove for Custodes and have a really good profile against them. The 6+++ makes MW slightly worse than they used to be, still pretty good.
Broscience advice followed by chronomancer buffed warriors with guass reapers are pretty hard to remove is funny!
Going from a 2+ re-rollable to a 3+ re-roll 1's is a significant difference. Shoot 30 bolter shots at a flayed one unit without the stratagem then do it with the stratagem you will notice the difference. The re-rolls are not guaranteed if the Praetors have to zoom off to handle the threat due to the flayed ones popping up or veiling across the table and the Captain is busy doing something else.
To keep it simple MWBD units vs non-MWBD units do you notice the difference?
CKO wrote: Going from a 2+ re-rollable to a 3+ re-roll 1's is a significant difference. Shoot 30 bolter shots at a flayed one unit without the stratagem then do it with the stratagem you will notice the difference. The re-rolls are not guaranteed if the Praetors have to zoom off to handle the threat due to the flayed ones popping up or veiling across the table and the Captain is busy doing something else.
To keep it simple MWBD units vs non-MWBD units do you notice the difference?
going from 5+ to 6+ is a big difference.
A unit of 20 Flayed Ones + Overlord is weaker then 30 Flayed Ones.
CKO wrote: Going from a 2+ re-rollable to a 3+ re-roll 1's is a significant difference. Shoot 30 bolter shots at a flayed one unit without the stratagem then do it with the stratagem you will notice the difference. The re-rolls are not guaranteed if the Praetors have to zoom off to handle the threat due to the flayed ones popping up or veiling across the table and the Captain is busy doing something else.
To keep it simple MWBD units vs non-MWBD units do you notice the difference?
going from 5+ to 6+ is a big difference.
A unit of 20 Flayed Ones + Overlord is weaker then 30 Flayed Ones.
So if you understand the power of MWBD, you should understand how taking it away is strong, right? That is what happens when you use the -1 to hit stratagem.
CKO wrote: Going from a 2+ re-rollable to a 3+ re-roll 1's is a significant difference. Shoot 30 bolter shots at a flayed one unit without the stratagem then do it with the stratagem you will notice the difference. The re-rolls are not guaranteed if the Praetors have to zoom off to handle the threat due to the flayed ones popping up or veiling across the table and the Captain is busy doing something else.
To keep it simple MWBD units vs non-MWBD units do you notice the difference?
going from 5+ to 6+ is a big difference.
A unit of 20 Flayed Ones + Overlord is weaker then 30 Flayed Ones.
So if you understand the power of MWBD, you should understand how taking it away is strong, right? That is what happens when you use the -1 to hit stratagem.
I do not understand "the power of MWBD". I think it's a waste of points. It would be different if you go from 6+ to 5+ (aka double the hits)
I do love the, "Yeah, any negative is bad and affects an army, but in my opinion saying anything other than what I think is just stupid....or Broscience."
going from 2 to 3's sucks and affects any freakin army....to say anything else is narrative building.
Da-Rock wrote: I do love the, "Yeah, any negative is bad and affects an army, but in my opinion saying anything other than what I think is just stupid....or Broscience."
going from 2 to 3's sucks and affects any freakin army....to say anything else is narrative building.
not at all, always look at it as fractions. from 2 to 3 is -20% or *0.8
CKO wrote: Broscience advice followed by chronomancer buffed warriors with guass reapers are pretty hard to remove is funny!
Yes, it's random that it's been a tournament staple before the Core change. I'm sure you're going to tell me all about how Custodes are excellent at taking out Warriors and terrible at taking out every other unit choice in the codex and how there are tonnes of units that are better suited to killing Custodes than reaper Warriors or maybe you'll explain how a Chronomancer isn't worth it against Custodes. /sarcasm
Da-Rock wrote: ...going from 2 to 3's sucks and affects any freakin army....to say anything else is narrative building.
That's a mighty fine strawman you got yourself there. /sarcasm
@vict0988 I am lost at this point. Are we both in agreement that we stated things that are obvious to us but not to the person who asked the question? When someone ask a question, you give them an answer regardless of the difficulty setting and that is what I did. You followed my response with a broscience statement about my answer. Is the question to simple in your eyes and don't deserve an answer? Was my answer not good enough, I don't know at this point. Feel free to explain you usually give out good advice. Funny thing about this situation I don't think we disagree on anything tactically but perhaps on how it was presented.
In my opinion, your answer was wrong, it is not supported by math.
If Orks get -1 to hit on their 18 autocannon shots then they miss 3 extra hits, if Custodes get -1 to hit on their 6 autocannon shots then they miss 1 extra hit. Custodes will make 4/6 hits instead of 5/6 (20% loss), Orks will make 3/18 hits instead of 6/18 hits (50% loss).
I am sorry about calling it broscience, it's obviously way out of context for a tabletop wargaming forum, I don't even work out anymore. Broscience is something that sounds like it works or makes sense but really isn't the best solution according to science. I do not mean to be disparaging towards you, I am only referring to the specific advice of loading up on -1 to hit/wound against Custodes being bad.
If you wanted to prove me wrong one way would be to do 6 games against the same Custodes list using 2 different lists, one list with lots of Chronomancered Warriors and one list with TBs and Flyers.
In my opinion, your answer was wrong, it is not supported by math.
We play with a six-sided die, each minus is 16.6666667%. Going from a 2 to 3 is literally 16.666667% worse for them.
vict0988 wrote: If Orks get -1 to hit on their 18 autocannon shots then they miss 3 extra hits, if Custodes get -1 to hit on their 6 autocannon shots then they miss 1 extra hit. Custodes will make 4/6 hits instead of 5/6 (20% loss), Orks will make 3/18 hits instead of 6/18 hits (50% loss).
I hate doing numbers but if we must, I will do it for the Newt Dynasty!
I have no clue why Orks is in this conversation, I am going to use Custodes as that is on topic. The most popular unit is their bikes, which have a hurricane bolter or salvo launcher. Hurricane bolter has 12 shots, at bs 2 that's 10 hits on average. If you use the stratagem there is a 33% chance that each shot will miss compared to just 16%. Instead of 10 hits, you get 8 hits on average then they go on to wounding which becomes a 50% chance of forcing a save on our units. Salvo Launchers are anti-tank so three shots at large infantry shots should not happen.
vict0988 wrote: I am sorry about calling it broscience, it's obviously way out of context for a tabletop wargaming forum, I don't even work out anymore. Broscience is something that sounds like it works or makes sense but really isn't the best solution according to science. I do not mean to be disparaging towards you, I am only referring to the specific advice of loading up on -1 to hit/wound against Custodes being bad.
If the praetors charge Skorpekhs they can eliminate the +1 to wound lance ability with the stratagem, instead of wounding on 2+ they wound on 3+ which is huge! Skorpekh Destroyers can easily survive the charge because of that stratagem. With flayed ones, the minus one to hit makes 33% miss and this time they only have 12 attacks so that once more helps out a lot. I did not understand the broscience comment at first, I gotcha now bro!
vict0988 wrote: If you wanted to prove me wrong one way would be to do 6 games against the same Custodes list using 2 different lists, one list with lots of Chronomancered Warriors and one list with TBs and Flyers.
I never said minus 1 to hit and wound wins you the game.
CKO wrote: They dislike ap 2, making their saves 4+ is huge. Minus 1 to hit or wound stratagems hurt them a lot as each attack is very important for them.
I said -1 to hit or wound hurts them a lot because they are an elite army. Using stratagems and abilities to interfere with their typically hitting on 2's wounding on 2's is a strategy you can use when facing them which will make your army more durable. I said ap 2 is big and who has ap 2 our warriors so why would I not include warriors? Flayed ones can use the stratagem, have a 5++, and have ap 2 with Novokh. Never underestimate the power of 16.666667% in a dice game. That's more broscience are we back where we started?
12/15=0,8 it's the relative difference that matters.
I have no clue why Orks is in this conversation
I said -1 to hit or wound hurts them a lot.
Because -1 to hit hurts Orks a lot (-50%) and Custodes a little (-20%).
If the praetors charge Skorpekhs they can eliminate the +1 to wound lance ability with the stratagem, instead of wounding on 2+ they wound on 3+ which is huge! Skorpekh Destroyers can easily survive the charge because of that stratagem. With flayed ones, the minus one to hit makes 33% miss and this time they only have 12 attacks so that once more helps out a lot.
5 Praetors with salvo launchers can destroy 180 pts of Skorpeks in one turn even if you spend 2CP, they only destroy 90 pts of Crono Warriors. Hurricane bolters are the only good horde-clearing tool Custodes have AFAIK, but it is no longer an auto-include because of salvo launchers being upgraded.
I did not understand the broscience comment at first, I gotcha now bro!
vict0988 wrote: If you wanted to prove me wrong one way would be to do 6 games against the same Custodes list using 2 different lists, one list with lots of Chronomancered Warriors and one list with TBs and Flyers.
I never said minus 1 to hit and wound wins you the game.
Just post your experience, I didn't say you needed to win, but a counter list should be a lot better.
Man o man......Mathhammer has to be the worst subcreation of the hobby all time.
if you have a 98.68% chance of doing something and a 1.32% chance of not....will you care if about the 98.68% if you roll into the 1.32% category?
Mathhammer is the perfect, "Cool Story Bro" scenario. It's a game that really only cares about the fun parts.
Having said that it doesn't discount those who get off on crunching numbers, but I just can't help feeling a little sad for those who can't see the forest for the trees......and yes, my strawman is fluffy and cute, but I can't take him anywhere in the California summer.
Da-Rock wrote: if you have a 98.68% chance of doing something and a 1.32% chance of not....will you care if about the 98.68% if you roll into the 1.32% category?
Yes, you can play perfectly and lose or make mistakes that win you the game. You cannot know the future, only the probability.
Mathhammer is the perfect, "Cool Story Bro" scenario. It's a game that really only cares about the fun parts.
What?
I just can't help feeling a little sad for those who can't see the forest for the trees.
Manchild 1984 wrote: seems like this channel has a europe vs US divide, time to start a new thread it seems.
This is a debate, I have no ill feelings towards anyone, we are just discussing tactics.
@vict0988 you are missing the point completely but at the same time proving my point for me. Yes, orcs will are hurt more by the stratagem but it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt Custodes. In your example, you have 5 salvo launchers which cost 425 points shoot at a 6 man squad of Skorpekh Destroyers which is 180 points. No, save no need to roll damage just a dead skorpekh, right? If you use the stratagem then they need a 4+ to wound that is a 50% chance of doing nothing! If the dice gods are not interfering and statistics prevail again the Custodes will kill 3 destroyers with one reanimating! 425 points to kill 60 points of a Necron army that is the power of the stratagem.
It is an elite army and when your opponent's 425 point unit goes from supposed to wipe the squad out to only 60 points worth of damage the stratagem is pretty powerful. Not to mention a technomancer reviving the destroyer making the damage even less efficient.
The strongest abilities in the game are re-rolls or +/- to the dice roll-related. That's my opinion and stats say I have a strong case, but it is not set in stone!
Yes, orcs will are hurt more by the stratagem but it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt Custodes.
You are not arguing for Custodes being hurt, you are arguing for -1 to hit/wound being a Custodes counter when it is anything but. I am not saying the FO or Skorpekh Stratagems are useless against Custodes or that the units are bad against Custodes, I am saying that -1 to hit is not a counter. You keep forgetting the units that actually have -1 to hit all the time, which should be counters according to your theory of Custodes needing every hit to win the game. Sadly Custodes just don't need every hit to win the game right now, 4/5 hits is plenty to deal with our relatively overcosted Tomb Blades, Canoptek Acanthrites, Flyers and Ophydian Destroyers.
The strongest abilities in the game are re-rolls or +/- to the dice roll-related. That's my opinion and stats say I have a strong case, but it is not set in stone!
I'm not seeing it, Drukhari ran Raiders instead of Venoms, while AdMech and Ork Flyers were OP, it wasn't true for Eldar, Drukhari, Necrons or Space Marines Flyers. The strongest ability is being undercosted, I don't care whether your minis have poop on sticks or golden chainsaws this one trick works every time.
If you use the stratagem then they need a 4+ to wound that is a 50% chance of doing nothing!
It's a 25% reduction in damage, you make it sound like it's something more. It's still good for a 1CP Stratagem, but it's only worth using in some circumstances. It might not be worth using if your opponent is only shooting 2 salvo launchers at your Skorpekhs and the rest are fired at SK, then your opponent can fire some other units at your Skorpekhs until they feel confident that even with -1 to wound they can delete the unit without Reanimation in melee. MSU attacking Skorpekhs makes it unlikely that Skorpekhs get to Reanimate because of the silly non-linear way that multi-wound Necrons Reanimate, maybe you can spend an extra 2CP to interrupt with some of your models, but oh-oh reap-blades don't one-shot bikes.
Cauthon wrote: Is anyone running the silent king right now? How many armies force him to hide or die?
S14 that can ignore invulns.. that kind of takes it to a new level.
Silent King is very popular, the price reduction makes him an auto-include IMO, he also combos really well with Flayed Ones and Skorpekhs which are really cheap at the moment.
I know this is going to sound wild but nobody runs Hammerheads AFAIK, I still think it's an OP unit it's just that Tau have more OP units than that.
Manchild 1984 wrote: I think Skorpekhs benefit less from the SK because they have reroll 1s to hit.
Wraiths benefit a lot because they hit worse.
SK's Phaeron of Blades ability lets you re-roll wound rolls in melee, Wraiths do benefit more from SK's MWBD, but Skorpekhs hitting on 2s with re-roll 1s and re-roll all wounds is still brutal. Add a Plasmacyte and Stratagems and you start getting multiplicative instead of just additive damage.
SK's Phaeron of Stars ability works for hit rolls in shooting, which is why he doesn't synergize with Lokhust Destroyers.
hi all,
I'm sorry if this is in here already but i want to run an infantry heavy list, immortals, warriors etc...
what should i add for some anti tank heavy fire power?
The "glasscannon" option seems to be the heavy lokhust, and even then it's so so. The Doomstalker does less damage, not sure how useful the overwatch is. The Doomsday Ark has quantum shielding, but can be ignored by the opponent.
3 Chronomancers with lances might also be viable in that role.
ive yet to ever get the overwatch thing off for my doomstalkers. For one, everything except lokhusts wanna move every turn and they dont, so they end up being left alone with maybe a small scarab squad for anti-deepstrike purposes. They arent that hard to kill unless your 4++ luck is strong, so generally they just get shot to death. Which is fine, since thats kinda what i brought them for (shoot them not my 3W dudes with the nasty guns)
I'm that player that always brings the distraction unit who CAN do some damage if ignored but generally their purpose is LOOKATME LOOKATME!!
its a little odd to me since they're characters but maybe that will work and it keeps up with the foot theme.
1) They'll also benefit from "Look Out Sir".
2) There's no reason not to consider taking other AT units as well - Doom Stalkers/Arks or heavy lokhusts (each has it's own pros/cons)
3) Don't forget about the Doom Scythe.
Yes, orcs will are hurt more by the stratagem but it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt Custodes.
You are not arguing for Custodes being hurt, you are arguing for -1 to hit/wound being a Custodes counter when it is anything but. I am not saying the FO or Skorpekh Stratagems are useless against Custodes or that the units are bad against Custodes, I am saying that -1 to hit is not a counter. You keep forgetting the units that actually have -1 to hit all the time, which should be counters according to your theory of Custodes needing every hit to win the game. Sadly Custodes just don't need every hit to win the game right now, 4/5 hits is plenty to deal with our relatively overcosted Tomb Blades, Canoptek Acanthrites, Flyers and Ophydian Destroyers.
When did I say it was a counter? Here is my exact post.
v0iddrgn wrote: Does anyone here know what Custodes' weaknesses are that we can exploit?
They dislike ap 2, making their saves 4+ is huge. Minus 1 to hit or wound stratagems hurt them a lot as each attack is very important for them.
I did not say anything about a direct counter to an entire army. This is my last response in this Custodes debate so you can have the closing statement. You are putting words into my mouth at this point, I have given examples with numbers and you refute them with words.
The strongest abilities in the game are re-rolls or +/- to the dice roll-related. That's my opinion and stats say I have a strong case, but it is not set in stone!
I'm not seeing it, Drukhari ran Raiders instead of Venoms, while AdMech and Ork Flyers were OP, it wasn't true for Eldar, Drukhari, Necrons or Space Marines Flyers. The strongest ability is being undercosted, I don't care whether your minis have poop on sticks or golden chainsaws this one trick works every time.
That is my opinion feel free to voice yours, but Admech has abilities to increase their entire army ws/bs by 1, I wonder if that is the reason why they were able to dominate when they originally came out?
If you use the stratagem then they need a 4+ to wound that is a 50% chance of doing nothing!
It's a 25% reduction in damage, you make it sound like it's something more. It's still good for a 1CP Stratagem, but it's only worth using in some circumstances. It might not be worth using if your opponent is only shooting 2 salvo launchers at your Skorpekhs and the rest are fired at SK, then your opponent can fire some other units at your Skorpekhs until they feel confident that even with -1 to wound they can delete the unit without Reanimation in melee. MSU attacking Skorpekhs makes it unlikely that Skorpekhs get to Reanimate because of the silly non-linear way that multi-wound Necrons Reanimate, maybe you can spend an extra 2CP to interrupt with some of your models, but oh-oh reap-blades don't one-shot bikes.
I explained the power of these stratagems using math, which forces you to write up a scenario where you discover yourself the power of the stratagem and come to the conclusion it's good! :thumbs-up:
iGuy91 wrote: A SK list won first place at a GT this last weekend, using Novohk, 20 Reaper Warriors, 40 Flayed Ones as the main attractions. So that's pretty neat.
Notable aspects, vis-a-vis the discussion points so far in this thread:
This list beat Custodes, Tau, etc. on its way to the win.
The list features a Canoptek Reanimator
The list features big blocks of Warriors alongside the Flayed Ones
For anti tank, it uses the Lokhust Heavies
iGuy91 wrote: A SK list won first place at a GT this last weekend, using Novohk, 20 Reaper Warriors, 40 Flayed Ones as the main attractions. So that's pretty neat.
Great!
Spoiler:
Battalion - Novokh
HQ Catacombe Command Barge - Voltaic Staff, Enduring Will
Chronomancer - Veil of Darkness, Entropic Lance, Photonic Transubjector
Technomancer - Canoptek Cloak
Lord - Resurrection Orb - Staff of Light, Orb of Eternity, Immortal Pride
Just played against Custodes yesterday. Tried to play keep away shooting them to bits on the way in but in the end it all fell apart. 4+ vs MW's is atrocious. I probably won't bother with tournaments if GW doesn't errata that OP garbage.
I am thinking about 2 C’tan again now that tau and custodies are more popular, since I think they will both struggle to kill one in a single turn and the C’tan can potentially crush an expensive unit in one turn. Any thoughts on this bones of a list:
Spoiler:
Dynasty: EE to try to stuff tau
HQ:
Chrono
Techno
Overlord
Troops:
20 reapers
10 flayers (to perform actions and hold objectives)
I use Nephrekh for translocation the ability is really underrated being able to advance an auto 6 and move through enemy models and terrain helps me get engaged or retrieve easier, and the 6++ sometimes makes a difference. The deep striking stratagem is also really good. 10 Warriors with 20 shots bs 3 re-rolling because the Silent King catches a lot of people off guard and helps get my secondaries. The Nightbringer is in the list and he does what he does, having a second big threat besides the Silent King helps that way there are more options for their anti-tank weapons.
I don't like the big block of Flayed Ones outside Novokh, split them into 3x6 and consolidate the Warriors into 20 for Stratagem/Veil of Darkness/Reanimation purposes.
I completely forgot the 6++, what a weird dynasty, I can see how that'd be kind of nice on Flayed Ones, but then I'm questioning why you need a Chronomancer.
What are you translocating and why not just take 2x6 Flayed Ones instead of 10 Warriors and then run Novokh? I'd try replacing the Wraiths with Ophydians if you stay Nephrekh, see if they fit your playstyle.
Necrons are getting a new lease of life. They are actually really good into custodes. Literally one of the few good counter matchups against Custodes. Because custodes armies these days don't bring that much horde clearing guns, going for salvos instead. And Necrons get to keep on using their reanimation protocols when fighting custodes. And despite each model counting as 2 models, custodes will still not outnumber a big necron warrior bloc on a point.
A big bloc of necron warriors or flayed ones on an objective point endlessly fighting some custodes while reanimating constantly is a nightmare for the custodes player.
A big bloc of necron warriors or flayed ones on an objective point endlessly fighting some custodes while reanimating constantly is a nightmare for the custodes player.
So you would play the obsec dynasties for the Flayed Ones? I will stick to Novokh I think, better overall.
What was your main path to victory? Move onto OBJ's round 1 and be hard to kill? Would love to take my tomb blades off the shelf for once
