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 CKO wrote:
We play with a six-sided die, each minus is 16.6666667%. Going from a 2 to 3 is literally 16.666667% worse for them.

36 shots
bs 2=30 hits 15 saves
bs 3=24 hits 12 saves

12/15=0,8 it's the relative difference that matters.

I have no clue why Orks is in this conversation

I said -1 to hit or wound hurts them a lot.

Because -1 to hit hurts Orks a lot (-50%) and Custodes a little (-20%).

If the praetors charge Skorpekhs they can eliminate the +1 to wound lance ability with the stratagem, instead of wounding on 2+ they wound on 3+ which is huge! Skorpekh Destroyers can easily survive the charge because of that stratagem. With flayed ones, the minus one to hit makes 33% miss and this time they only have 12 attacks so that once more helps out a lot.

Man o man......Mathhammer has to be the worst subcreation of the hobby all time.

if you have a 98.68% chance of doing something and a 1.32% chance of not....will you care if about the 98.68% if you roll into the 1.32% category?

Mathhammer is the perfect, "Cool Story Bro" scenario. It's a game that really only cares about the fun parts.

Having said that it doesn't discount those who get off on crunching numbers, but I just can't help feeling a little sad for those who can't see the forest for the trees......and yes, my strawman is fluffy and cute, but I can't take him anywhere in the California summer.

 Da-Rock wrote:
if you have a 98.68% chance of doing something and a 1.32% chance of not....will you care if about the 98.68% if you roll into the 1.32% category?

Yes, you can play perfectly and lose or make mistakes that win you the game. You cannot know the future, only the probability.

Mathhammer is the perfect, "Cool Story Bro" scenario. It's a game that really only cares about the fun parts.

What?

I just can't help feeling a little sad for those who can't see the forest for the trees.

What big picture am I missing?

seems like this channel has a europe vs US divide, time to start a new thread it seems.

 Manchild 1984 wrote:
seems like this channel has a europe vs US divide, time to start a new thread it seems.

This is a debate, I have no ill feelings towards anyone, we are just discussing tactics.

@vict0988 you are missing the point completely but at the same time proving my point for me. Yes, orcs will are hurt more by the stratagem but it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt Custodes. In your example, you have 5 salvo launchers which cost 425 points shoot at a 6 man squad of Skorpekh Destroyers which is 180 points. No, save no need to roll damage just a dead skorpekh, right? If you use the stratagem then they need a 4+ to wound that is a 50% chance of doing nothing! If the dice gods are not interfering and statistics prevail again the Custodes will kill 3 destroyers with one reanimating! 425 points to kill 60 points of a Necron army that is the power of the stratagem.

It is an elite army and when your opponent's 425 point unit goes from supposed to wipe the squad out to only 60 points worth of damage the stratagem is pretty powerful. Not to mention a technomancer reviving the destroyer making the damage even less efficient.

The strongest abilities in the game are re-rolls or +/- to the dice roll-related. That's my opinion and stats say I have a strong case, but it is not set in stone!

You guys are wild.

Is anyone running the silent king right now? How many armies force him to hide or die?

S14 that can ignore invulns.. that kind of takes it to a new level.

Yes, orcs will are hurt more by the stratagem but it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt Custodes.

You are not arguing for Custodes being hurt, you are arguing for -1 to hit/wound being a Custodes counter when it is anything but. I am not saying the FO or Skorpekh Stratagems are useless against Custodes or that the units are bad against Custodes, I am saying that -1 to hit is not a counter. You keep forgetting the units that actually have -1 to hit all the time, which should be counters according to your theory of Custodes needing every hit to win the game. Sadly Custodes just don't need every hit to win the game right now, 4/5 hits is plenty to deal with our relatively overcosted Tomb Blades, Canoptek Acanthrites, Flyers and Ophydian Destroyers.

The strongest abilities in the game are re-rolls or +/- to the dice roll-related. That's my opinion and stats say I have a strong case, but it is not set in stone!

I'm not seeing it, Drukhari ran Raiders instead of Venoms, while AdMech and Ork Flyers were OP, it wasn't true for Eldar, Drukhari, Necrons or Space Marines Flyers. The strongest ability is being undercosted, I don't care whether your minis have poop on sticks or golden chainsaws this one trick works every time.

If you use the stratagem then they need a 4+ to wound that is a 50% chance of doing nothing!

It's a 25% reduction in damage, you make it sound like it's something more. It's still good for a 1CP Stratagem, but it's only worth using in some circumstances. It might not be worth using if your opponent is only shooting 2 salvo launchers at your Skorpekhs and the rest are fired at SK, then your opponent can fire some other units at your Skorpekhs until they feel confident that even with -1 to wound they can delete the unit without Reanimation in melee. MSU attacking Skorpekhs makes it unlikely that Skorpekhs get to Reanimate because of the silly non-linear way that multi-wound Necrons Reanimate, maybe you can spend an extra 2CP to interrupt with some of your models, but oh-oh reap-blades don't one-shot bikes.

Cauthon wrote:
Is anyone running the silent king right now? How many armies force him to hide or die?

S14 that can ignore invulns.. that kind of takes it to a new level.

Silent King is very popular, the price reduction makes him an auto-include IMO, he also combos really well with Flayed Ones and Skorpekhs which are really cheap at the moment.

I know this is going to sound wild but nobody runs Hammerheads AFAIK, I still think it's an OP unit it's just that Tau have more OP units than that.

(I think Skorpekhs benefit less from the SK because they have reroll 1s to hit. Wraiths benefit a lot because they hit worse.)
Edit: it's ok for both.

 Manchild 1984 wrote:
I think Skorpekhs benefit less from the SK because they have reroll 1s to hit.

Wraiths benefit a lot because they hit worse.

SK's Phaeron of Blades ability lets you re-roll wound rolls in melee, Wraiths do benefit more from SK's MWBD, but Skorpekhs hitting on 2s with re-roll 1s and re-roll all wounds is still brutal. Add a Plasmacyte and Stratagems and you start getting multiplicative instead of just additive damage.

SK's Phaeron of Stars ability works for hit rolls in shooting, which is why he doesn't synergize with Lokhust Destroyers.

ok I read the Blades aura wrong. That keeps the the Skorpekh ability relevant.

Lokhust Destroyers seem kinda bad anyway. Heavy Lokhusts I don't know. gonna edit the other post.

Edit: I think plasmacyte isn't good enough

hi all,
I'm sorry if this is in here already but i want to run an infantry heavy list, immortals, warriors etc...
what should i add for some anti tank heavy fire power?

The "glasscannon" option seems to be the heavy lokhust, and even then it's so so. The Doomstalker does less damage, not sure how useful the overwatch is. The Doomsday Ark has quantum shielding, but can be ignored by the opponent.

3 Chronomancers with lances might also be viable in that role.

thanks manchild... im gonna look at chronomancers.

its a little odd to me since they're characters but maybe that will work and it keeps up with the foot theme.

ive yet to ever get the overwatch thing off for my doomstalkers. For one, everything except lokhusts wanna move every turn and they dont, so they end up being left alone with maybe a small scarab squad for anti-deepstrike purposes.
They arent that hard to kill unless your 4++ luck is strong, so generally they just get shot to death.
Which is fine, since thats kinda what i brought them for (shoot them not my 3W dudes with the nasty guns)

I'm that player that always brings the distraction unit who CAN do some damage if ignored but generally their purpose is LOOKATME LOOKATME!!

hot take: distraction units don't exist

A SK list won first place at a GT this last weekend, using Novohk, 20 Reaper Warriors, 40 Flayed Ones as the main attractions. So that's pretty neat.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
thanks manchild... im gonna look at chronomancers.

its a little odd to me since they're characters but maybe that will work and it keeps up with the foot theme.

1) They'll also benefit from "Look Out Sir".
2) There's no reason not to consider taking other AT units as well - Doom Stalkers/Arks or heavy lokhusts (each has it's own pros/cons)
3) Don't forget about the Doom Scythe.

 vict0988 wrote:

Yes, orcs will are hurt more by the stratagem but it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt Custodes.

You are not arguing for Custodes being hurt, you are arguing for -1 to hit/wound being a Custodes counter when it is anything but. I am not saying the FO or Skorpekh Stratagems are useless against Custodes or that the units are bad against Custodes, I am saying that -1 to hit is not a counter. You keep forgetting the units that actually have -1 to hit all the time, which should be counters according to your theory of Custodes needing every hit to win the game. Sadly Custodes just don't need every hit to win the game right now, 4/5 hits is plenty to deal with our relatively overcosted Tomb Blades, Canoptek Acanthrites, Flyers and Ophydian Destroyers.

When did I say it was a counter? Here is my exact post.

 CKO wrote:

v0iddrgn wrote:
Does anyone here know what Custodes' weaknesses are that we can exploit?

They dislike ap 2, making their saves 4+ is huge. Minus 1 to hit or wound stratagems hurt them a lot as each attack is very important for them.

I did not say anything about a direct counter to an entire army. This is my last response in this Custodes debate so you can have the closing statement. You are putting words into my mouth at this point, I have given examples with numbers and you refute them with words.

The strongest abilities in the game are re-rolls or +/- to the dice roll-related. That's my opinion and stats say I have a strong case, but it is not set in stone!

I'm not seeing it, Drukhari ran Raiders instead of Venoms, while AdMech and Ork Flyers were OP, it wasn't true for Eldar, Drukhari, Necrons or Space Marines Flyers. The strongest ability is being undercosted, I don't care whether your minis have poop on sticks or golden chainsaws this one trick works every time.

That is my opinion feel free to voice yours, but Admech has abilities to increase their entire army ws/bs by 1, I wonder if that is the reason why they were able to dominate when they originally came out?

 vict0988 wrote:

If you use the stratagem then they need a 4+ to wound that is a 50% chance of doing nothing!

It's a 25% reduction in damage, you make it sound like it's something more. It's still good for a 1CP Stratagem, but it's only worth using in some circumstances. It might not be worth using if your opponent is only shooting 2 salvo launchers at your Skorpekhs and the rest are fired at SK, then your opponent can fire some other units at your Skorpekhs until they feel confident that even with -1 to wound they can delete the unit without Reanimation in melee. MSU attacking Skorpekhs makes it unlikely that Skorpekhs get to Reanimate because of the silly non-linear way that multi-wound Necrons Reanimate, maybe you can spend an extra 2CP to interrupt with some of your models, but oh-oh reap-blades don't one-shot bikes.

I win you see the power!

 vict0988 wrote:
It's still good for a 1CP Stratagem

I explained the power of these stratagems using math, which forces you to write up a scenario where you discover yourself the power of the stratagem and come to the conclusion it's good! :thumbs-up:

At the end of the day you can't beat math.

 iGuy91 wrote:
A SK list won first place at a GT this last weekend, using Novohk, 20 Reaper Warriors, 40 Flayed Ones as the main attractions. So that's pretty neat.

Goonhammer has a good write up for it.
https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-too-much-warhammer-too-often-pt-1/

Notable aspects, vis-a-vis the discussion points so far in this thread:

This list beat Custodes, Tau, etc. on its way to the win.
The list features a Canoptek Reanimator
The list features big blocks of Warriors alongside the Flayed Ones
For anti tank, it uses the Lokhust Heavies

Thoughts for how this list could be improved?

 iGuy91 wrote:
A SK list won first place at a GT this last weekend, using Novohk, 20 Reaper Warriors, 40 Flayed Ones as the main attractions. So that's pretty neat.

Great!

Just played against Custodes yesterday. Tried to play keep away shooting them to bits on the way in but in the end it all fell apart. 4+ vs MW's is atrocious. I probably won't bother with tournaments if GW doesn't errata that OP garbage.

I am thinking about 2 C’tan again now that tau and custodies are more popular, since I think they will both struggle to kill one in a single turn and the C’tan can potentially crush an expensive unit in one turn. Any thoughts on this bones of a list:



I am going to try something like this out in a couple weeks at game day, but I would appreciate thoughts.

You cannot have two ctans in one detachment. Only one per detachment. This also means a second ctan costs you at least 2CP.

Thoughts for how this list could be improved?

Skorpekhs.

I am going to try something like this out in a couple weeks at game day, but I would appreciate thoughts.

Time's Arrow on one C'tan, switch out the other C'tan's power for Time's Arrow to deal with Custodes.

 p5freak wrote:
You cannot have two ctans in one detachment. Only one per detachment. This also means a second ctan costs you at least 2CP.

Cannot have 2 Troops and 4 Elites for less than 2CP anyways.

Reanimator without Ghost Ark? SIgs gonna be pissed.

The 10 Warrior unit might be better as Immortals + 5 Flayed ones (5 points more ofc)

I think ill adopt the tripple heavy Lokhusts

This is a list that I will be taking to a local tournament and I would love to get everyone's opinion especially @vict0988, @wuestenfux, and @sasori.

Secondaries: Code of Combat, Retrieve Nachmund Data, Engage On All Fronts


++ Supreme Command Detachment +3CP (Necrons) [21 PL, 6CP, 420pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost [3CP]

Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Nephrekh

+ Primarch | Daemon Primarch | Supreme Commander +

The Silent King [21 PL, 3CP, 420pts]
. 2x Triarchal Menhir: 2x Annihilator Beam

++ Battalion Detachment -3CP (Necrons) [83 PL, 8CP, 1,580pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Nephrekh

+ HQ +

Chronomancer [5 PL, -1CP, 90pts]: Dynastic Heirlooms, Entropic Lance, Relic: Veil of Darkness

Technomancer [5 PL, 80pts]: Canoptek Cloak, Relic: Voltaic Staff

+ Troops +

Immortals [4 PL, 85pts]: Gauss Blaster, 5x Immortal

Immortals [4 PL, 85pts]: Gauss Blaster, 5x Immortal

Necron Warriors [6 PL, 130pts]
. 10x Necron Warrior (Gauss Reaper): 10x Gauss Reaper

Necron Warriors [6 PL, 130pts]
. 10x Necron Warrior (Gauss Reaper): 10x Gauss Reaper

+ Elites +

C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer [19 PL, 370pts]: Power of the C'tan: Transdimensional Thunderbolt

Flayed Ones [8 PL, 180pts]
. 18x Flayed One: 18x Flayer Claws

Skorpekh Destroyers [8 PL, 150pts]: Skorpekh Destroyer (Reap-Blade)
. 4x Skorpekh Destroyer (Thresher): 4x Hyperphase Threshers

+ Fast Attack +

Canoptek Scarab Swarms [2 PL, 45pts]
. 3x Canoptek Scarab Swarm: 3x Feeder Mandibles

Canoptek Scarab Swarms [4 PL, 60pts]
. 4x Canoptek Scarab Swarm: 4x Feeder Mandibles

Canoptek Wraiths [12 PL, 175pts]
. 5x Canoptek Wraith (Claws): 5x Vicious Claws

++ Total: [104 PL, 14CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

I use Nephrekh for translocation the ability is really underrated being able to advance an auto 6 and move through enemy models and terrain helps me get engaged or retrieve easier, and the 6++ sometimes makes a difference. The deep striking stratagem is also really good. 10 Warriors with 20 shots bs 3 re-rolling because the Silent King catches a lot of people off guard and helps get my secondaries. The Nightbringer is in the list and he does what he does, having a second big threat besides the Silent King helps that way there are more options for their anti-tank weapons.

You cannot Advance and perform an action.

I don't like the big block of Flayed Ones outside Novokh, split them into 3x6 and consolidate the Warriors into 20 for Stratagem/Veil of Darkness/Reanimation purposes.

I completely forgot the 6++, what a weird dynasty, I can see how that'd be kind of nice on Flayed Ones, but then I'm questioning why you need a Chronomancer.

What are you translocating and why not just take 2x6 Flayed Ones instead of 10 Warriors and then run Novokh? I'd try replacing the Wraiths with Ophydians if you stay Nephrekh, see if they fit your playstyle.

What is thunderbolt good against in your meta?

Necrons are getting a new lease of life. They are actually really good into custodes. Literally one of the few good counter matchups against Custodes. Because custodes armies these days don't bring that much horde clearing guns, going for salvos instead. And Necrons get to keep on using their reanimation protocols when fighting custodes. And despite each model counting as 2 models, custodes will still not outnumber a big necron warrior bloc on a point.

A big bloc of necron warriors or flayed ones on an objective point endlessly fighting some custodes while reanimating constantly is a nightmare for the custodes player.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

A big bloc of necron warriors or flayed ones on an objective point endlessly fighting some custodes while reanimating constantly is a nightmare for the custodes player.

So you would play the obsec dynasties for the Flayed Ones? I will stick to Novokh I think, better overall.

There were much debate about the Necron tier.
Art of War placed them at tier A due to the Necron treatment recently: