The Overlord should almost certainly be the Mephrit warlord trait CCB with void reaper, which is a melee killing machine.
That Mephrit warlord trait is one of the weirdest things about this codex. The 8th edition one was nice and fluffy and I don't know why they changed it. The new one is a better melee trait than the Novokh one
AduroT wrote: How many relics do you take? How many CP are they each worth? If you know you’re taking the Veil first, is 1 CP worth it for the Voltaic Staff? 2 more CP for a third?
In my 2k list I think I want the Solar Staff for Overwatch denial to protect the charging Lychguard. Don’t know that I want to spend on that at 1k with no dedicated melee units. Still don’t think the Orb of Eternity feels worth it.
A second relic is ok for 1CP, but i wouldnt invest 2 more CP for a third one. Necrons dont have a lot of good relics. Veil of darkness and voltaic staff are probably the best.
As I mentioned above, I disagree specifically in Mephrit. My Novokh lists typically follow your guidance of only veil and Voltaic, though I'll field a CCB with the Novokh relic or Voidreaper when I'm not fielding the Silent King or Anrakyr.
The ability to stack a CCB up to strength 8 5 attacks with damage 3 is super worth it in Mephrit.
I also think the Royal Warden Mephrit Relic is super worth it, doubling the output versus the toughness 5 models that are so prevalent in the new books and nearly doubling Versus T3. Versus T4, the gun only has 1.5 times the output of the normal gun.
I don't usually take orb of eternity, but that's because I take reanimators pretty often after the points drop and usually only take characters (other than chronomancers) when I can take a relic that increases their output.
I just reread the Immovable Phalanx Dynastic Code and hadn't realised how odd it is before. Infantry get +1 to armour saves vs damage 1 attacks if the unit didn't move that Battle Round.
Firstly, I hadn't noticed it applies in close combat as well as shooting. Secondly, because it checks for movement in that Battle round, it's always active if you're going second (unless it's your Fight Phase and you moved that turn).
It's not great to have a trait that's only really good in half of games, but it is a very strong effect when active, and mitigates the disadvantage of going second.
If you go second and start in the guardian protocol, Warriors will have a 2+ Sv in the open vs damage 1.
Yeah, that was one of the trolly things i saw early that i decided not to do when i noticed the expansionist technically ruins it.
2+ save across the board (since you hide out of LoS things that dont benefit) turn1 is gonna really piss some alphastrikers off. 6" movement would be enough to be able to fire with all non-reaper guns too so thats why i was looking at that and mega upset when i noticed it didnt work lol
Theres another part to its oddity too: "unless that unit made a Normal Move, Advanced, or Fell Back this battle round..." so...if you didnt need to move at all to get a charge off guess what you didnt do any of those lol.... Charge movement is not a normal/adv movement. (bit gamey though so expect gruff if you try that)
Though i did not notice the melee part...interesting...
Yeah doesn't work with expansionist sadly. Immortals and destroyers in terrain will get a 1+ Sv. (Although Destroyers attract multi damage shots). Might be an interesting alternative build.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Yeah doesn't work with expansionist sadly. Immortals and destroyers in terrain will get a 1+ Sv. (Although Destroyers attract multi damage shots). Might be an interesting alternative build.
I remember watching a game way back when the codex was initially released where a dude ran a bunch of immortals with that dynastic trait alongside some melee threats like skorpekhs. It was a while ago now so I cant quite remember the list properly, but vividly remember thinking how tanky the immortals where sat up in the backfield with a 2+ at T5.
By the time the guys opponent had finished off the melee wave he had basically nothing left that went into the immortals efficiently. Bare in mind though, this was back when you could choose to go 2nd so I think its actually lost some of its potential since, but definitely seemed like it could still see play regardless. I wish I could tell you guys more about it but this was months ago now and I'm not sure I could even find the video again.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Yeah doesn't work with expansionist sadly. Immortals and destroyers in terrain will get a 1+ Sv. (Although Destroyers attract multi damage shots). Might be an interesting alternative build.
Having said this, I think I'm going to try an "Immovable Expansionists" list. My thinking is that if I go second Immovable Phalanx is pretty great, so I probably wouldn't use the free move from Expansionists on any infantry (Scarabs can get moving though). If I'm going first I can double move the infantry in the 1st turn, to have a chance of getting something out of IP later.
None of the other traits seem that great in combination with IP.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Yeah doesn't work with expansionist sadly. Immortals and destroyers in terrain will get a 1+ Sv. (Although Destroyers attract multi damage shots). Might be an interesting alternative build.
Having said this, I think I'm going to try an "Immovable Expansionists" list. My thinking is that if I go second Immovable Phalanx is pretty great, so I probably wouldn't use the free move from Expansionists on any infantry (Scarabs can get moving though). If I'm going first I can double move the infantry in the 1st turn, to have a chance of getting something out of IP later.
None of the other traits seem that great in combination with IP.
Seems like it could be quite interesting, let us know if you do run it dude, I'd love to know how the game(s) go!
In regards to comboing IP with the other traits I guess it depends on what you're running. Immovable Phalanx alongside Healthy Paranoia could be great if you're spamming immortals to really double down on their bulky backfield/fire base role. If you're running a bunch of gauss flayer warriors (because reasons) then comboing IP with Isolationists to hit S5 on their flayers within 12" would help give you a little more flexibility in how you play them, as opposed to the reaper warriors close up and punchy style.
I mean the IP combo with the Eternal Guardian protocol is a fantastic durability boost don't get me wrong, but you'd only ever have that over 2 turns max (if you're running the SK). So, personally, if I was gonna run IP, I'd probably forgo protocols and give it to a patrol of immortals or something while the rest of the army maybe went obsec. Just my 2 cents, and like said, I'm keen to hear about any games you do get in bro because currently that theory hasn't been tested you know
I think I have found a sleeper OP combo. Take a Locust destroyer lord with voltaic + 3 Hextech destroyers and just run them behind your indestructible squad of warriors. It is a pretty potent shooting combo that can't be targeted due to being characters and it rerolls practically everything. With the prevalence of quinns - it could be very effective. In any case it sounds fun cause I have always liked the lokust lord but never really had a way to use his buff consistently. This at least easy to use.
AduroT wrote: Which gun do you prefer on the Triarch Stalker?
I generally take it for the rerolls, so the particle shredder. 2 shots isn't enough to guarantee the hit. The 8 shots of the particle shredder at damage 2 and AP1 are the most broadly applicable weapon profile. The gauss is fine if I have the extra points.
Just want to take a quick sec to shout out Mephrit Tomb Blades and Annihilation Barges. I've been playing a lot of them lately, and I think they are better on the field than they are on paper.
The first -1 is the most important, after all, and with all the LOS blocking terrain in 9th, short range guns aren't as bad as they used to be. Barges and Blades do work.
Xenomancers wrote: I think I have found a sleeper OP combo. Take a Locust destroyer lord with voltaic + 3 Hextech destroyers and just run them behind your indestructible squad of warriors. It is a pretty potent shooting combo that can't be targeted due to being characters and it rerolls practically everything. With the prevalence of quinns - it could be very effective. In any case it sounds fun cause I have always liked the lokust lord but never really had a way to use his buff consistently. This at least easy to use.
Yeah, that would be grand - I like the Glocktopus a lot and seem to find a spot for him in all my lists. Unfortunately I think the difficulty would be getting them into a place where they could do much damage, Hextechs can deep strike but the Lokhust cannot, and slow-walking them up the board (even at 8"+1d6 move) leaves you vulnerable to fire.
40kenthusiast wrote: Just want to take a quick sec to shout out Mephrit Tomb Blades and Annihilation Barges. I've been playing a lot of them lately, and I think they are better on the field than they are on paper.
The first -1 is the most important, after all, and with all the LOS blocking terrain in 9th, short range guns aren't as bad as they used to be. Barges and Blades do work.
Anni barges take away slots from doomstalkers, lokhust destroyers, lokhust heavy destroyers, DDAs. Unless i play a spearhead detachment, i dont have slots for them.
Seems like it could be quite interesting, let us know if you do run it dude, I'd love to know how the game(s) go!
I had a game vs Space Wolves using Immovable Phalanx and Expansionists. I'm not going to do a battle report just list a few points:
I "lost" the roll off to go 1st, that made me very happy as Immovable Phalanx would be up all game - Making it good to lose the roll off is the best thing about IP.
Expansionists was still useful even though I didn't want to move much and lose IP: 2 big Scarab Swarms got to move as well as a unit that was out of LoS.
The Wolves didn't have much long range shooting so IP didn't do a lot first turn.
2nd turn my blob of 20 Warriors got jumped by reserved Flamer Aggressors and Bolter/Lightning Claw Terminators. Lots of 1 damage attacks which let IP do work! Sadly there were just too many attacks and the Warriors still died.
Later a unit of Skorpekh Destroyers laughed as the Aggressors shot them. 2+ save from IP combined with 6's to wound from their defensive strat.
The Terminators bravely ran away (using Desperate Breakout) from Lychguard and Skorpekhs who were not in the slightest bit bothered by Lightning claws.
Ultimately I don't think IP made a significant difference to the outcome, though it did have an effect. It's usefulness is quite match up dependent and it would be better vs an army with more 1D attacks.
Bonus info: For the second game running my Psychomancer made no useful contribution beyond being a Veil caddy. His abilities are just too situational. Even though I've been close enough to use them every turn, they haven't made a difference.
Xenomancers wrote: I think I have found a sleeper OP combo. Take a Locust destroyer lord with voltaic + 3 Hextech destroyers and just run them behind your indestructible squad of warriors. It is a pretty potent shooting combo that can't be targeted due to being characters and it rerolls practically everything. With the prevalence of quinns - it could be very effective. In any case it sounds fun cause I have always liked the lokust lord but never really had a way to use his buff consistently. This at least easy to use.
That's 330pts min(maybe 360 if you throw in a res orb for the warriors) all you get for that is 18 str 6 ap-1 shots(that's like 4 dead marines).. And the voltaic staff but your probably taking that anyways. The biggest problem is the pistols have terrible ap so they don't actually threaten much you may as well just grab 20 more reaper warriors, with ap-2 they can actually threaten a wider range of targets and can soak up a ton of firepower.
I want to like the Lokust lord as I love the design but only buffing destroyers puts him in this weird position of not being cheap enough to just throw in, and the units he buffs don't actually need his buff(if you are taking lokust destroyers your probably using the strat, similar with heavy destroyers you're probably just using the auto wound) or just aren't worth their points(the hexmark). I've tried to make the hexmark work, and in certain matchups they are fine and in others they just don't do much of anything, they pretty much need to fight something with a 5+ save to feel good, and this codex doesn't have trouble against things with a 5+ save.
40kenthusiast wrote: Just want to take a quick sec to shout out Mephrit Tomb Blades and Annihilation Barges. I've been playing a lot of them lately, and I think they are better on the field than they are on paper.
The first -1 is the most important, after all, and with all the LOS blocking terrain in 9th, short range guns aren't as bad as they used to be. Barges and Blades do work.
Anni barges take away slots from doomstalkers, lokhust destroyers, lokhust heavy destroyers, DDAs. Unless i play a spearhead detachment, i dont have slots for them.
I mean all of those units are underwhelming or overcosted so it's no great loss.
The only decent HS slot for Cron's currently is Lokhust Heavies and even then they're about 10 points too expensive.
The only decent HS slot for Cron's currently is Lokhust Heavies and even then they're about 10 points too expensive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/05 08:26:44
Truth spoken here.
Nevertheless, a well-rounded army should be able to battle the enemy at all threat ranges and here some long-range heavy-fire support is inevitable, unless the enemy plays only infantry.
p5freak wrote: I disagree, LHDs die to a stiff breeze. They arent worth 210 pts., not even 180 pts. 150 sounds ok.
150 for 3? That would be pretty good!
They are most efficient as a unit of 1 for 70pts, as they are a cheap-ish objective camper. Nothing else in the heavy slot is particularly attractive, it's our weakest slot.
p5freak wrote: I disagree, LHDs die to a stiff breeze. They arent worth 210 pts., not even 180 pts. 150 sounds ok.
What would you then suggest as HS unit for taking on heavily armored enemy units?
I still like my Doomscythes, but packing three of them is a bit difficult.
p5freak wrote: I disagree, LHDs die to a stiff breeze. They arent worth 210 pts., not even 180 pts. 150 sounds ok.
What would you then suggest as HS unit for taking on heavily armored enemy units?
I still like my Doomscythes, but packing three of them is a bit difficult.
You know what i like, DDAs. I have two, and i always use them. Yes, they are swingy. But overall its a good package, a big gun against armoured targets, 10 or 20 gauss flayer shots (which can auto wound on a roll of 6 for 1CP), heal 1 wound in my turn (2 for one turn with protocols when a character is within 6", a cryptek can heal them, or a spyder can repair them), 12" movement, FLY, QS, 4+ inv for 1CP.
The issue with DDAs for me is that they don't do the thing they are supposed to (anti-armour) well enough. They are probably the most effective overall package for the heavy slot. What I do like is that the anti tank options are all well balanced. I lean towards single LHDs but there are many disadvantages to them.
p5freak wrote: I disagree, LHDs die to a stiff breeze. They arent worth 210 pts., not even 180 pts. 150 sounds ok.
What would you then suggest as HS unit for taking on heavily armored enemy units?
I still like my Doomscythes, but packing three of them is a bit difficult.
You know what i like, DDAs. I have two, and i always use them. Yes, they are swingy. But overall its a good package, a big gun against armoured targets, 10 or 20 gauss flayer shots (which can auto wound on a roll of 6 for 1CP), heal 1 wound in my turn (2 for one turn with protocols when a character is within 6", a cryptek can heal them, or a spyder can repair them), 12" movement, FLY, QS, 4+ inv for 1CP.
I know. So the question was a bit provocative, sorry, but I think quite useful in this context. Thanks for responding!
None of our heavy support and heavy support adjacent choices are exciting, but we still need to fill the role. My main concern is a squad of 6 plasma inceptors with reroll and apothecary support wiping a unit of Warriors/Lychguard with every salvo, though Multi-meltas pointed at the SK aren't far behind on the concern list even if that isn't quite as fundamental.
I like a DDA as my single QS vehicle, especially in a Mephrit list where the Gauss has teeth. The problem I have with it, along with the randomness and static nature, is the large size making it very hard to screen and tagging it shutting off it's blast weapon. I wouldn't want to run more than one of them for that reason.
Our HQ shooting is pretty good, especially in Mephrit where the 3 inches of range pays dividends on the 18 inch chronomancer entropic lance, plasmancer gun, and Volt Staff shots. The Conduit of Stars is also quite a good ranged weapon. The SK is a bit more suspect since he needs to be hidden from the Multi-meltas that are so dangerous to him. Either way, that shooting is supplemental and not a complete solution.
Lokhust Destroyers are quite good shots if you can flood them with CP use. That's the solution I've taken in my Novokh Silent King build, and it's working quite well. They aren't very good in anything that doesn't have absurd amounts of CP available.
Lokhust Heavy Destroyers can do some corner shooting in certain matchups, but their range of effective targets is rather narrow, limiting the usefulness of that tactic. Still, a litte sniping from the back of the board might be okay in enough matchups to take a lone one to limit exposure to it's weak matchups. I do like tying one to a squad of 4 regular Lokhusts and just praying the ablative wounds gets it through the turn to shoot again.
I like Doomstalkers pretty well in a Canoptek Eternal Expansionist build. They have a narrow enough profile to be more easily screened than the DDA, but I'm certainly less inclined to take them without making a larger investment in a Canoptek wing of a list that makes more use of the support Technomancer for them and the space Canoptek Units create.
The Doom Scythe feels a little too fragile. I could see taking it if none of the other options fit your list by just dropping it in to handle a problem, but it feels like an option of last resort.
Mortals from a C'tan of some sort seem like another supplemental option, much like the HQ shooting. It's an exceedingly expensive option, though, and only the Void Dragon has the double targeted attacks versus screened low model count units to really pull it off.
That leads us to Forge World options. Besides cost and the Forge World barrier to entry, I think the Tesseract Ark is the least conditional option we have access to, and I'd like one or two to supplement my heavy firepower from range in builds where the other options don't fit. This feels like the generic option we would have hoped to be in the codex.
Acanthrites are probably too close range at 12 inches even with a good movement speed due to screening concerns, though I haven't tried it.
Tomb Sentinels seem good as a cheap option for those D6 shots, and that might be something to look into. The range is still a bit hairy.
If the tomb sentinel had QS I'd take it almost every time.
Someone made a very good point on a different thread that I've also found to be true - vehicles are only getting consistently popped when they make a push for the centre. A lot of the vehicles people are taking these days are backfield indirect fire stuff like whirlwinds and plague burst crawlers, things that can post up in a corner and spam shots out of LOS.
Initially I thought that LHDs where our best pick, and I still think their our most consistent choice in terms of anti-tank damage output, but having to expose them to get shots off on their primary targets can feel really rough some times.
Because the tomb sentinels have innate deep strike, they naturally pressure those backfield vehicles, and at 125pts aren't necessarily as much of an investment as our other HS options (even though it is a FA slot). Its still a bit of a glass cannon though, and you probs want to save a CP for it incase you need to re-roll your shots to make sure to do pop whatever you're pointing it at, so I'm not totally made up on it.
I do think it has a more consistent role though in the current meta though, and if it had quantum shielding I'd probably put one in most lists
Hypothetically, a Tomb Sentinel, Cryptek w/ Node & the DS Arcana, and a squad of flayed ones to act as bodyguard.
Everything Deep Strikes in the same turn, Stalker gets the +1 to hit it needs, flayers can also be charge threat. Sure, it makes the distraction carnifex approach more expensive, but I think people will be less inclined not to divert back to deal with something like that
EDIT: and it's only, what, 280 ish points for all of it?
IHateNids wrote: Hypothetically, a Tomb Sentinel, Cryptek w/ Node & the DS Arcana, and a squad of flayed ones to act as bodyguard.
Everything Deep Strikes in the same turn, Stalker gets the +1 to hit it needs, flayers can also be charge threat. Sure, it makes the distraction carnifex approach more expensive, but I think people will be less inclined not to divert back to deal with something like that
EDIT: and it's only, what, 280 ish points for all of it?
Not a bad investment at all imo. You could run a couple units of flayed ones too - help pull your opponent apart a little more. The fight twice strat making you hit 30 attacks with a unit of 5 is really strong for 65pts, especially when you're using them to help clear backfield stuff.
I think theres a very strong dual dynasty build out there that runs a couple c'tan, some flayed ones, a bunch of scarabs, warriors and/or immortals and maybe a sentinel alongside the usual chronomancer/cryptek suspects
Automatically Appended Next Post:
p5freak wrote: Tomb sentinels are fast attack, so they take away slots from wraiths, scarabs, tomb blades. And they only hit on 4+. Not a good idea.
You're not expecting the sentinel to do major work dont get me wrong, but its niche helps fill a gap that the standard builds otherwise struggle with.
LOS shooting is something that the warrior builds especially struggle with - theres a reason why those sort of backline vehicles are on the up take and I certainly think necrons have had their part to play in that
I didn't notice those Acanthrites deep strike as well. Is it worth paying 240 plus a 90 point deep striking Technomancer for 6 deep striking melta guns that hit on 3+?
That squad is decently capable in combat as well, so it might be a decent selection in Novokh to deep strike, shoot, then charge.
There might be some mix of Tomb Sentinels and Acanthrites that could help form that strategy.
LiMunPai wrote: I didn't notice those Acanthrites deep strike as well. Is it worth paying 240 plus a 90 point deep striking Technomancer for 6 deep striking melta guns that hit on 3+?
That squad is decently capable in combat as well, so it might be a decent selection in Novokh to deep strike, shoot, then charge.
There might be some mix of Tomb Sentinels and Acanthrites that could help form that strategy.
Do the Acanthrites have DS?? Obviously you can reserve them but I didn't know it was built into their profile? If that's the case then its a little bit more of an investment for sure, but their output is much more reliable.
A Novokh technomancer with the dimensional sanctum and the re-roll charges WL trait alongside the Acanthrites and some flayed ones sounds like a good force to have in your back pocket.
LiMunPai wrote: I didn't notice those Acanthrites deep strike as well. Is it worth paying 240 plus a 90 point deep striking Technomancer for 6 deep striking melta guns that hit on 3+?
That squad is decently capable in combat as well, so it might be a decent selection in Novokh to deep strike, shoot, then charge.
There might be some mix of Tomb Sentinels and Acanthrites that could help form that strategy.
Do the Acanthrites have DS?? Obviously you can reserve them but I didn't know it was built into their profile? If that's the case then its a little bit more of an investment for sure, but their output is much more reliable.
A Novokh technomancer with the dimensional sanctum and the re-roll charges WL trait alongside the Acanthrites and some flayed ones sounds like a good force to have in your back pocket.
Fly keyword on them. Pretty sure that means they can deep strike.
LiMunPai wrote: I didn't notice those Acanthrites deep strike as well. Is it worth paying 240 plus a 90 point deep striking Technomancer for 6 deep striking melta guns that hit on 3+?
That squad is decently capable in combat as well, so it might be a decent selection in Novokh to deep strike, shoot, then charge.
There might be some mix of Tomb Sentinels and Acanthrites that could help form that strategy.
Do the Acanthrites have DS?? Obviously you can reserve them but I didn't know it was built into their profile? If that's the case then its a little bit more of an investment for sure, but their output is much more reliable.
A Novokh technomancer with the dimensional sanctum and the re-roll charges WL trait alongside the Acanthrites and some flayed ones sounds like a good force to have in your back pocket.
Fly keyword on them. Pretty sure that means they can deep strike.
It does not, deep strike is a catch-all term for all the abilities that let you deploy your unit in reinforcements for 0 CP and lets them pop up anywhere more than 9" from enemies when they arrive. Acanthrites have FLY but no DS, Ophydians have DS but no FLY.
LiMunPai wrote: I didn't notice those Acanthrites deep strike as well. Is it worth paying 240 plus a 90 point deep striking Technomancer for 6 deep striking melta guns that hit on 3+?
That squad is decently capable in combat as well, so it might be a decent selection in Novokh to deep strike, shoot, then charge.
There might be some mix of Tomb Sentinels and Acanthrites that could help form that strategy.
Do the Acanthrites have DS?? Obviously you can reserve them but I didn't know it was built into their profile? If that's the case then its a little bit more of an investment for sure, but their output is much more reliable.
A Novokh technomancer with the dimensional sanctum and the re-roll charges WL trait alongside the Acanthrites and some flayed ones sounds like a good force to have in your back pocket.
Fly keyword on them. Pretty sure that means they can deep strike.
It does not, deep strike is a catch-all term for all the abilities that let you deploy your unit in reinforcements for 0 CP and lets them pop up anywhere more than 9" from enemies when they arrive. Acanthrites have FLY but no DS, Ophydians have DS but no FLY.
Thanks, I was quite mistaken there. Looks like I conflated some stuff.
AduroT wrote: Play Nephrekh. For 1 CP each any unit can have Deep Strike.
"Select one NEPHREKH unit (excluding VEHICLE or MONSTER units) from your army." Not exactly, but you can do it to Acanthrites. It's probably better to Outflank Novokh Acanthrites right?
AduroT wrote: Play Nephrekh. For 1 CP each any unit can have Deep Strike.
"Select one NEPHREKH unit (excluding VEHICLE or MONSTER units) from your army." Not exactly, but you can do it to Acanthrites. It's probably better to Outflank Novokh Acanthrites right?
If I was gonna runn them I probably would play them as Novokh yeah. Reserving a full squad would cost 2cp naturally though, so you may as well reserve the technomancer additionally for no extra cost. I just realised the re-roll charges WL trait is core locked too, which makes the play a little less viable. Reserving a sentinel, flayed ones and a dimensional sanctum technomancer is much cheaper at that point too, so I guess its very dependent on your local meta in terms of what you pick.
8" charge out of DS is still much more workable than a 9" though either way.
My thoughts on each unit's performance, if you don't mind spoilers.
Spoiler:
Heavy Destroyers - They actually did fairly well, getting their points back, and through careful play, avoided return fire. I think they're over priced, but they have a niche they fill.
Seraptek Heavy Construct - The forgeworld changes/unwarranted nerfs, the inability to hide it, and the inability to give it a 4++ invuln unlike almost any other knight hamstrings an otherwise impressive model. The firepower is still good. But it could drop 100 points, and still be in the 'ok' category of models. I'll stick to a ctan or the silent king in the future until something changes.
10 novokh lychguard with sword/shield are veiled T1 with an overlord, who used MWBD on them, and has the implacable conqueror warlord trait. The protocol of the hungry void is active in the first battle round. The rerollable 8" charge roll is successful. Now disruption fields and blood rites is used. Thats 40 attacks hitting on 2s with S8 AP-3 D1. AP-4 with unmodified 6 wound rolls. And 50 attacks when the overlord makes his charge as well (no rerolls), and eternal protectors is used.
How much damage do you lose if you take them as not Novokh? I can imagine getting that kind of blender in position turn one to be a colossal pain in the ass with some of the other codes on offer as well
w/o novokh, its a ~15% or whatever it was less likely charge, 10 less attacks, loss of innate +1 AP, and you gotta pick which half of the protocol you want.
They still hit hard but as novokh they hit hard enough to pummel just about anything.
p5freak wrote: 10 novokh lychguard with sword/shield are veiled T1 with an overlord, who used MWBD on them, and has the implacable conqueror warlord trait. The protocol of the hungry void is active in the first battle round. The rerollable 8" charge roll is successful. Now disruption fields and blood rites is used. Thats 40 attacks hitting on 2s with S8 AP-3 D1. AP-4 with unmodified 6 wound rolls. And 50 attacks when the overlord makes his charge as well (no rerolls), and eternal protectors is used.
It’s still a one-trick pony.
I’ve seen this kind of move too often.
Next turn, the unit is melting away.
Odds are good those Lychguard trade a cheap screen for their lives, so I wouldn't be so aggressive. They've been much more successful for me as a deterrent just behind my lines, while the rest of my army threatens midfield.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Odds are good those Lychguard trade a cheap screen for their lives, so I wouldn't be so aggressive. They've been much more successful for me as a deterrent just behind my lines, while the rest of my army threatens midfield.
Precisely how I use them. They are there to bail out warriors that have been assaulted.
This is exactly why the veil is so strong though - it let's you do something like this and expose a weakness right off the bat.
I dont think theres anything wrong with veiling early, with lychguard or otherwise, if it means you can build a strong lead from the get go.
In fact I think it's most potent either very early or very late into the game.
If you were gonna veil lychguard then novokh is a strong contender for which dynasty to run. Nihilakh could also be quite good to give them obsec, as well as a 1+ save (if your sword and board) in the eternal guardian protocol as the veil doesnt count as a "normal move" and you can still charge afterwards without this affecting the Save role either.
Personally I prefer the lychguard as a early/mid game counter punch unit. But that's more to do with the fact that I want them in range of the SKs re-roll wounds more often than not
TheNEWnew wrote: This is exactly why the veil is so strong though - it let's you do something like this and expose a weakness right off the bat.
I dont think theres anything wrong with veiling early, with lychguard or otherwise, if it means you can build a strong lead from the get go.
In fact I think it's most potent either very early or very late into the game.
If you were gonna veil lychguard then novokh is a strong contender for which dynasty to run. Nihilakh could also be quite good to give them obsec, as well as a 1+ save (if your sword and board) in the eternal guardian protocol as the veil doesnt count as a "normal move" and you can still charge afterwards without this affecting the Save role either.
Personally I prefer the lychguard as a early/mid game counter punch unit. But that's more to do with the fact that I want them in range of the SKs re-roll wounds more often than not
Typical move for me is VOD 20 man warriors. 10 Man Lych advances up behind them with TSK. If warriors get tied up. Pop the fall back and shoot protocol and engage with Lych. It works really well.
The only army I am hold lych against is quinns...Because super balanced -6" range 9" auras exist for some reason. The VOD is super helpful against quinns. Lots of ways to use it against them.
p5freak wrote: 10 novokh lychguard with sword/shield are veiled T1 with an overlord, who used MWBD on them, and has the implacable conqueror warlord trait. The protocol of the hungry void is active in the first battle round. The rerollable 8" charge roll is successful. Now disruption fields and blood rites is used. Thats 40 attacks hitting on 2s with S8 AP-3 D1. AP-4 with unmodified 6 wound rolls. And 50 attacks when the overlord makes his charge as well (no rerolls), and eternal protectors is used.
It’s still a one-trick pony.
I’ve seem this kind of move too often.
Next turn, the unit is melting away.
I dont think a unit with T5 W2 4+ inv and 2+ sv plus RP melts away. I plan to use a second threat which involves 2x5 wraith followed by a controltek. If my opponent decides to concentrate his fire on the lychguard my wraith will hit him hard.
p5freak wrote: 10 novokh lychguard with sword/shield are veiled T1 with an overlord, who used MWBD on them, and has the implacable conqueror warlord trait. The protocol of the hungry void is active in the first battle round. The rerollable 8" charge roll is successful. Now disruption fields and blood rites is used. Thats 40 attacks hitting on 2s with S8 AP-3 D1. AP-4 with unmodified 6 wound rolls. And 50 attacks when the overlord makes his charge as well (no rerolls), and eternal protectors is used.
It’s still a one-trick pony.
I’ve seen this kind of move too often.
Next turn, the unit is melting away.
I dont think a unit with T5 W2 4+ inv and 2+ sv plus RP melts away. I plan to use a second threat which involves 2x5 wraith followed by a controltek. If my opponent decides to concentrate his fire on the lychguard my wraith will hit him hard.
Yeah, don't let the veiled Lychguard stay on their own.
Combos and synergy are key.
I tend to Veil Warriors more than Lychguard but it can work great when needed.
I had a game against Orks where my Overlord veiled 10 Novokh Lychguard into combat with a bunch of Boyz on a flank. They wiped the out the Orks, then next turn used the Dimensional Corridor strat to teleport to the Monolith on the opposite flank, and wipe out another unit. Badass.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I tend to Veil Warriors more than Lychguard but it can work great when needed.
I had a game against Orks where my Overlord veiled 10 Novokh Lychguard into combat with a bunch of Boyz on a flank. They wiped the out the Orks, then next turn used the Dimensional Corridor strat to teleport to the Monolith on the opposite flank, and wipe out another unit. Badass.
2 deep strike charges. When things are going well it feels OP! I have done this exact thing against death guard and he was literally crying.
Xenomancers wrote: 2 deep strike charges. When things are going well it feels OP! I have done this exact thing against death guard and he was literally crying.
The corrolary, and why I don't simply VoD Lychguard anymore: when it goes poorly your Lychguard get blasted from existence because they failed a 9" charge.
Exception: Deceiver+Zahndrekh+Obyron 2" charges (just if you lose first turn, they murder Zahndrekh unless you Deceiver'd him with a bodyguard screen). Before RP got worse for lychguard, I used to try and get a Cryptek with a VoD (if I was running Scytheguard, with the 5+ invuln against shooting) up there as well, to VoD Zahndrekh and then follow with Obyron and the Lychguard to wipe a second unit if they survived a turn of shooting.
The corrolary, and why I don't simply VoD Lychguard anymore: when it goes poorly your Lychguard get blasted from existence because they failed a 9" charge.
Exception: Deceiver+Zahndrekh+Obyron 2" charges (just if you lose first turn, they murder Zahndrekh unless you Deceiver'd him with a bodyguard screen). Before RP got worse for lychguard, I used to try and get a Cryptek with a VoD (if I was running Scytheguard, with the 5+ invuln against shooting) up there as well, to VoD Zahndrekh and then follow with Obyron and the Lychguard to wipe a second unit if they survived a turn of shooting.
Shame they got rid of obyrons ability to drag a squad along with him when he teleports. I think it would have been the niche that tipped the pair into seeing table time. Ultimately they'll never be a better choice than imotekh as they are now.
Shame they got rid of obyrons ability to drag a squad along with him when he teleports. I think it would have been the niche that tipped the pair into seeing table time. Ultimately they'll never be a better choice than imotekh as they are now.
LiMunPai wrote: How are you guys handling squads of 6 Inceptors with Apo, reroll support, and deep strike screening?
Yeah, 36 plasma shots into your warrior bricks really hurts eh.
I don't think there's one catch all way we have to deal with them tbh, as it depends on what chapter they are and/or whether your opponent reserves them or not. For arguments sake let's say the inceptors start on the board and they're not ultramarines, in which case you'll want something with either speed, range, or both. Speed will generally be our most consistent way of dealing with them as our longer range threats are fairly mediocre.
Personally, I love wraiths for this job, especially if you go for the 6" pre game move. They've got a base 2" extra move on the inceptors and can advance into cover in the mid board if you're not gonna catch the them turn 1, while threatening to pass straight through their screens in the next turn. Fall back and charge is very powerful on a 12" move unit with innate 4++. I'm not expecting the wraiths to wipe them in a turn by any stretch of the imagination, but I want those inceptors being harassed and falling back ASAP. As long as those inceptors aren't shooting, or at least aren't shooting at your warriors, you dont have to worry about them too much while the rest of your force pushes up.
Gauss tomb blades are pretty good for tackling the inceptors too, especially as Mephrit. Transhuman doesn't matter as you're wounding on 4s anyway, plus you've got a strat to turn your gauss into assault weapons which gives you a very efficient threat range advantage over them. TBs aren't generally prime targets for the inceptors either, and I think people often underestimate how much damage Mephrit TBs can dish out, especially if you start them in range of a MWBD character.
Finally, I think gauss immortals do have leg up in dealing with them, thanks to their range - although I think you'll want to build around them more if you intend to use them this way. I've ran 30 immortals with the 3" extra range and rapid fire from stationary custom dynasty a couple times now and that's worked fairly well in dealing with inceptors. The inceptors should want to move forward at that point as you outrange them, plus they dont really go efficiently into immortals (although I'm still expecting to lose the squad dont get me wrong). Then if they have moved up, between your movement and RF at 16.5", you should be able to cripple them next turn.
LiMunPai wrote: How are you guys handling squads of 6 Inceptors with Apo, reroll support, and deep strike screening?
Yeah, 36 plasma shots into your warrior bricks really hurts eh.
I don't think there's one catch all way we have to deal with them tbh, as it depends on what chapter they are and/or whether your opponent reserves them or not. For arguments sake let's say the inceptors start on the board and they're not ultramarines, in which case you'll want something with either speed, range, or both. Speed will generally be our most consistent way of dealing with them as our longer range threats are fairly mediocre.
Personally, I love wraiths for this job, especially if you go for the 6" pre game move. They've got a base 2" extra move on the inceptors and can advance into cover in the mid board if you're not gonna catch the them turn 1, while threatening to pass straight through their screens in the next turn. Fall back and charge is very powerful on a 12" move unit with innate 4++. I'm not expecting the wraiths to wipe them in a turn by any stretch of the imagination, but I want those inceptors being harassed and falling back ASAP. As long as those inceptors aren't shooting, or at least aren't shooting at your warriors, you dont have to worry about them too much while the rest of your force pushes up.
Gauss tomb blades are pretty good for tackling the inceptors too, especially as Mephrit. Transhuman doesn't matter as you're wounding on 4s anyway, plus you've got a strat to turn your gauss into assault weapons which gives you a very efficient threat range advantage over them. TBs aren't generally prime targets for the inceptors either, and I think people often underestimate how much damage Mephrit TBs can dish out, especially if you start them in range of a MWBD character.
Finally, I think immortals do have leg up in dealing with them, thanks to their range - although I think you'll want to build around them more if you intend to use them this way. I've ran 30 immortals with the 3" extra range and rapid fire from stationary custom dynasty a couple times now and that's worked fairly well in dealing with inceptors. The inceptors should want to move forward at that point as you outrange them, plus they dont really go efficiently into immortals (although I'm still expecting to lose the squad dont get me wrong). Then if they have moved up, between your movement and RF at 16.5", you should be able to cripple them next turn.
That's a pretty solid answer; thanks for the thoughts.
I think the Inceptor problem is mostly related to TSK Novokh builds more than anything else. I think a build structure like TSK Novokh is just going to get hit with a cost of doing business tax against Inceptors. I've been using Lokhust Destroyers in my build to kill them back and just hoping my opponent hasn't doubled down on Inceptors, but it's still a painful exchange that takes some care in hiding and screening them. I think the lokhusts in the build as the 4th big squad is a good choice generally, though, with the plethora of CP available and chronomancers already supporting the build to up their durability.
For our cryptek builds, both 5++ scarabs and wraiths don't feel particularly threatened by the inceptors and can tie them up/chip away at them. Ultras, Ravenguard, and White Scars being able to fall back and shoot are mildly problematic, but the builds just screen anything that is particularly vulnerable pretty well. Just not bringing any or only 1 big squad is also an option for these builds.
An Immortal heavy build with a smaller unit size bent doesn't have as juicy targets for them. I think there's probably some Mephrit or mixed dynasty builds that do this well.
I think the lesson I take here is just to have a few different builds in my pocket to build around the metagame. That's aspirational currently, as I'm still painting up my Novokh TSK, but it certainly makes me want to dive into other builds with greater haste.
LiMunPai wrote: How are you guys handling squads of 6 Inceptors with Apo, reroll support, and deep strike screening?
Yeah, 36 plasma shots into your warrior bricks really hurts eh.
Praying or ignoring doesn't help. Necrons have nothing which come close.
When I'm desperate I'll send my Wraiths or shoot them by a concentrated effort.
Definitely one of my favorite units.
But its not easy to integrate 3 of them (2 are fine) in an army.
I am happy to run 2 and a DDa. A neat trick to use with them is to fly them off the table if suicide deep strike units are coming in the next turn.You can fly black on the next turn after they come in.
Doom Scythes are really bad against Inceptors if they use transhuman. The Heavy Death Ray hits twice, wounds 1 time, kills 1. The Tesla hits 10 times, wounds 5 times, saves down to 1.7 wounds if they don't use the strat to get a 2+ save against damage 1. If they have psychic fortress and the 3 CP in strats, it does 2.87 wounds on average. This gets significantly better if you spend your hit reroll and auto wound on it, but you could do the same with any big gun in your army. That makes the first Doom Scythe significantly better than any subsequent ones.
Under the same conditions, each Lokhust hits 2.33 times, wounds 1.75 times under the strat, saves to 1.16 through, for 2.32 damage. That makes the Lokhust 3 times as effective offensively for the points against this target, and I still don't think it's a good trade.
I didn't add an apo 6+ on top of that yet. They also come back 1 a turn if you don't wipe them due to that apo.
Gravis just have insane support options. With Inceptors having the ability to one round full units of Necrons, though, we need to get them off the board ASAP.
Doom Scythes are really bad against Inceptors if they use transhuman. The Heavy Death Ray hits twice, wounds 1 time, kills 1. The Tesla hits 10 times, wounds 5 times, saves down to 1.7 wounds if they don't use the strat to get a 2+ save against damage 1. If they have psychic fortress and the 3 CP in strats, it does 2.87 wounds on average. This gets significantly better if you spend your hit reroll and auto wound on it, but you could do the same with any big gun in your army. That makes the first Doom Scythe significantly better than any subsequent ones.
Under the same conditions, each Lokhust hits 2.33 times, wounds 1.75 times under the strat, saves to 1.16 through, for 2.32 damage. That makes the Lokhust 3 times as effective offensively for the points against this target, and I still don't think it's a good trade.
I didn't add an apo 6+ on top of that yet. They also come back 1 a turn if you don't wipe them due to that apo.
Gravis just have insane support options. With Inceptors having the ability to one round full units of Necrons, though, we need to get them off the board ASAP.
It is time you people catch on to the good ole Szarekhan (which is by far the best dynasty IMO). You get a free reroll to wound per unit. They wanna blow 2 CP to save a single inceptor be my guest.
I also use LHD. Typically 2 in my list for holding back field. Unlikely ill have vision on the gravis turn 1 though. Doom Scythes are great because they can get to the inceptors turn 1.
You are literally talking about units that wound gravis on 2's - automatically kill them with no save after that - and complaining about the gravis. LOL. The issue would be transhuman. Try to bait it on another unit.
Doom Scythes are really bad against Inceptors if they use transhuman.
It is time you people catch on to the good ole Szarekhan (which is by far the best dynasty IMO). You get a free reroll to wound per unit. They wanna blow 2 CP to save a single inceptor be my guest.
I also use LHD. Typically 2 in my list for holding back field. Unlikely ill have vision on the gravis turn 1 though. Doom Scythes are great because they can get to the inceptors turn 1.
You are literally talking about units that wound gravis on 2's - automatically kill them with no save after that - and complaining about the gravis. LOL. The issue would be transhuman. Try to bait it on another unit.
What else are you running as Szarekhan? LHDs get a lot of utility out of the dynasty for sure and I really wouldn't be surprised to see people running more stuff like this if they drop points in chapter approved, but (and I dont mean to be rude or anything) 2 of them alone doesnt seem enough to justify the dynasty pick?
Doom Scythes are really bad against Inceptors if they use transhuman.
It is time you people catch on to the good ole Szarekhan (which is by far the best dynasty IMO). You get a free reroll to wound per unit. They wanna blow 2 CP to save a single inceptor be my guest.
I also use LHD. Typically 2 in my list for holding back field. Unlikely ill have vision on the gravis turn 1 though. Doom Scythes are great because they can get to the inceptors turn 1.
You are literally talking about units that wound gravis on 2's - automatically kill them with no save after that - and complaining about the gravis. LOL. The issue would be transhuman. Try to bait it on another unit.
What else are you running as Szarekhan? LHDs get a lot of utility out of the dynasty for sure and I really wouldn't be surprised to see people running more stuff like this if they drop points in chapter approved, but (and I dont mean to be rude or anything) 2 of them alone doesnt seem enough to justify the dynasty pick?
Presumably you would run this in a multi-dynasty list. 3 LHD, a doom scythe, and a Plasmancer in a spearhead, perhaps. That's 480 solid points of heavy cracking.
I love them and think they are one of the sleeper hits in the codex because of their two strategems. The two ways I've used them is deep striking a unit of 5 near a juicy target but out of LOS (which isn't always possible) or running a squad of 15-20 up the board with a Chronomancer to contest the midfield. It does kinda feel annoying paying for DS when you don't use it though andI wish they could infiltrate like in previous editions.
The traits I take are 6" pre game move and rad-wreathed. Wounding Guardsmen and other T3 targets on 2's is brutal and wounding Custodes and Gravis marines etc on 4's is also very nice when used with the fight twice strat. I think they are just a really good all pupose infantry killer and 9th is all about infantry fighting in the mid field. Possibly one of our best answers to Death Guard too, although I haven't played them to find out.
Also the fear is mechanic is actually quite good against things that don't just ignore morale
Cynista wrote: I love them and think they are one of the sleeper hits in the codex because of their two strategems. The two ways I've used them is deep striking a unit of 5 near a juicy target but out of LOS (which isn't always possible) or running a squad of 15-20 up the board with a Chronomancer to contest the midfield. It does kinda feel annoying paying for DS when you don't use it though andI wish they could infiltrate like in previous editions
5 man units run as novokh are really good out if DS too. I dont normally like the psychomancer but he makes a good partner for them if you put the dimensional sanctum arcana on him as well as thrall of the silent king to push his nightmare shroud aura to 9". His abilities naturally synergies with the flayed ones. Being able to turn off your opponents obsec is much stronger on the smaller units after all.
As novokh you've got the ability to get 40 attacks out of a 5 man unit if you do feel like spending 3 CP, which is very efficient for a 65pt unit. Between a 8" charge out of DS and AP-2 theres not a lot of stuff that you want to put them into that isn't crippled at that point.
If you do go for 5 man units, then the obsec dynasty is also a strong choice. Again, pair them with a psychomancer and you've got a very cheap and very threatening objective based reserve force
I haven't tried big bricks of them so I cant talk on it, but rad wreathed does seem like a good choice for them there.
Yeah at first I was using them in tandem with a Psychomancer and it's trolltastic against Imperial Guard. Since then though I decided to use those points on a LHD instead
I really like the Psychomancer + Dimensional Simulacrum to drop in alongside virtually anything else.
Issue I have with it is that I detest the model.... Not that this is a modelling thread, but general concensus on using Old Szeras instead of the new thing?
Tbh I think we can be pretty liberal with Cryptek's. My Chronomancer is a kitbash I made a couple years ago. Wraith tail, Praetorian torso and Deathmark head. My Plasmancer is an AOS Cairn Wraith with various Necron bits stuck on
Who really gets to say what any particular Cryptek should look like.
I get the impression from the fluff that no two are ever really the same.
As they are mostly egomaniacs who are constantly altering their bodies and tech.
LiMunPai wrote: How are you guys handling squads of 6 Inceptors with Apo, reroll support, and deep strike screening?
Well, Lychguard with shields can at least not die in one go to five of them.
That's something I guess.
Really the issue is that Plasceptors are just an oppressive unit in general and I don't think there are many answers to them. The points increase didn't go far enough and while the above suggestions are really good, I think most armies are just in a situation where we're all kind of waiting for another points increase to hit them.
AduroT wrote: I didn’t realize Plasma Inceptors were considered that good. Haven’t really seen Marines singing their praises, just this threat lamenting them.
They are brutal.
They are also really obnoxious rules wise - lots of rollings, usually done one model at a time (due to overcharge) and therefore people tend to remember them.
AduroT wrote: I didn’t realize Plasma Inceptors were considered that good. Haven’t really seen Marines singing their praises, just this threat lamenting them.
With the option for full re-rolls to hit, wounding on 2s if they overcharge with re-roll 1s from a lieutenant, base 10" move assault weapons and blast, they're very tricky for reaper warriors to deal with. A lot of our builds include at least 1 brick of 20 warriors which the plasma inceptors eat up for breakfast, lunch, dinner and whatever other time they're feeling hungry lol
Other codexs complain about eradicators (and often attack bikes) but we really dont have the same issues thanks to quantum shielding and 5++ on a lot of our vehicles, so its swings and roundabouts I guess
AduroT wrote: I didn’t realize Plasma Inceptors were considered that good. Haven’t really seen Marines singing their praises, just this threat lamenting them.
They're really good, probably the most improved unit in the 9th edition Codex. They have two Blast D3 shot guns, which means it's really easy to get 6 shots per model and re-rolls are easy to come by in a SM list. That number of S8, D2 shots is very efficient at killing pretty much anything from light infantry all the way up to tanks. They can also natively Deep Strike and have a good enough defensive profile to need a fairly specific answer.
pretty much every marine player ive seen that doesnt abuse plasma inceptors hinges on the "if i overcharge they just die" bit.
Yeah with that many shots even with rerolls youre extremely likely to explode....uh..dont overcharge? The fact they have blast makes them ridiculous on its own.
Its the same reason as admech i flipped out when i saw Destroyers' plasma had D6 shots with blast....im like "thats a plasma i'd gladly fire at hordes..." - except the marine inceptors are even worse since theyre 2 D3 guns, so they get full shots on 6+ models (which is really dumb)
I've never seen them not suicide because EVERY time they deepstrike down behind me and overcharge against a vehicle/monster, killing 1-2 of themselves on average. And every time i facepalm lol (Marine players in my area are not that bright, im getting tired of facing them because they keep doing dumb gak like this expecting to win because marines)
A very important thing to remember, as a Necron player, is that the marines are in the same 'all marine' meta as you are.
So you are good at playing vs Marines, because it is all you do. But Marines are also good...at playing vs Marines, because it is all they do. We may have the 'only one codex' penalty vs marines and chaos, but we have the weirdo edge on our side.
36 shots bs 2 mean 6 will miss if they have re-rolls then they will only miss 1 shot.
35 str 7 hits vs 20 toughness 4 warriors
11 do not wound (unless they use Lt) so that is a dead warrior squad. If you have a 5++ you will save 8, 4 warriors will live allowing 5-7 to reanimate.
In smaller games, the Interceptors come in and kills something, and most likely that is game. If they continue to use a unit like that in small games introduce them to a C'tan! In higher point games you should be able to return fire with the blob he didn't shoot. The Silent King can kill at least 3 with his shooting alone.
The ultimate answer is one of my new favorite units DEATHMARKS!
Their main purpose is to snipe apothecaries and psykers, which win games. Secondary role is to use the stratagem and attack units such as Inteceptors before they shoot you. They have bs 2 so you are hitting on 3's when they move. Teleport near the King for bs 3 re-rolls. If you can kill 1 or 2 then the alpha strike is mitigated greatly as each dead Inteceptor is six fewer shots. Mortal wounds and -2 ap makes it easier than you may think especially if you play Mephrit making it -3 Ap.
Doom Scythes are really bad against Inceptors if they use transhuman.
It is time you people catch on to the good ole Szarekhan (which is by far the best dynasty IMO). You get a free reroll to wound per unit. They wanna blow 2 CP to save a single inceptor be my guest.
I also use LHD. Typically 2 in my list for holding back field. Unlikely ill have vision on the gravis turn 1 though. Doom Scythes are great because they can get to the inceptors turn 1.
You are literally talking about units that wound gravis on 2's - automatically kill them with no save after that - and complaining about the gravis. LOL. The issue would be transhuman. Try to bait it on another unit.
What else are you running as Szarekhan? LHDs get a lot of utility out of the dynasty for sure and I really wouldn't be surprised to see people running more stuff like this if they drop points in chapter approved, but (and I dont mean to be rude or anything) 2 of them alone doesnt seem enough to justify the dynasty pick?
The 5++ to mortals is huge as well. Think about everything that benifits and the total damage output gained.
Chronomancers entropic lance
DDA Doom Scythe
LHD
Plus throwing another wound roll into multiple additional units in shooting and melee really adds up.
It's just not as obvious as -1 AP in melee for Novak units (which is also very good) but the overall benefits of Sharekhan overweigh IMO. Silent king for example blows up on a 4+ - often this happens in a big swirling melee with multiple units from each army affected. The 5+ FNP to mortals pays huge if this happens. It absolutely won me a game vs harlequins in a tight match last week.
If you really want to maximize it and this is a pretty decent core
2 Doomscythe
1 DDA (command reroll for bad number of shots)
2 LHD
This combo of units is pretty fantastic for destroying pretty much any target you can imagine that isn't infantry.
Doom Scythes are really bad against Inceptors if they use transhuman.
It is time you people catch on to the good ole Szarekhan (which is by far the best dynasty IMO). You get a free reroll to wound per unit. They wanna blow 2 CP to save a single inceptor be my guest.
I also use LHD. Typically 2 in my list for holding back field. Unlikely ill have vision on the gravis turn 1 though. Doom Scythes are great because they can get to the inceptors turn 1.
You are literally talking about units that wound gravis on 2's - automatically kill them with no save after that - and complaining about the gravis. LOL. The issue would be transhuman. Try to bait it on another unit.
What else are you running as Szarekhan? LHDs get a lot of utility out of the dynasty for sure and I really wouldn't be surprised to see people running more stuff like this if they drop points in chapter approved, but (and I dont mean to be rude or anything) 2 of them alone doesnt seem enough to justify the dynasty pick?
Presumably you would run this in a multi-dynasty list. 3 LHD, a doom scythe, and a Plasmancer in a spearhead, perhaps. That's 480 solid points of heavy cracking.
You could do that but losing command protocols is not worth it IMO. ESP if you are using silent king who gives you 2 of the protocols you want to use plus another on demand.
Has anyone tried multiple C'tans? or at least two? How has the experience been? Thanks. I would really like to try double Transcendent C'tans in a list. But just want to know how they are before I take the plunge to buy and paint up the two models.
Anyone else think that Ophydian Destroyers are a missed opportunity both in terms of rules and aesthetic? If they only had the claws but were slightly cheaper at say 30ppm, I think they'd serve nicely as faster, harder hitting versions of Flayed Ones. As they are they just seem really confused
Cynista wrote: Anyone else think that Ophydian Destroyers are a missed opportunity both in terms of rules and aesthetic? If they only had the claws but were slightly cheaper at say 30ppm, I think they'd serve nicely as faster, harder hitting versions of Flayed Ones. As they are they just seem really confused
Absolutely. If GW were dead set on giving them two different weapons I feel like some sort of shooting attack would have been more appropriate than two completely different styles of close combat attack. A shooting attack would also help make them not completely useless if they fail their charge out of Deep Strike.
If it was me I'd make the weapons either/or instead of both, so you aren't paying for options that you won't use. And potentially a reroll charges ability/strategem.
Visually I think Ophydians with 4 claw arms would look great and I might convert some one day. Only trouble is getting mechanical claw bits....
I can't see me getting Ophydians for this exact reason. They have no real identity; despite how many different configurations make them "pretty good, theyre never great.
Which is a shame, cos their models are really starting to grow on me.
you do realize they use both weapons at once right? The claws are a free 2 additional attacks whenever "the bearer fights" - you dont opt to use them, they simply happen. Each Ophydian is making 3/4 Hyperphase (depending on which one were talking about) attacks and 2 Claw attacks. I'm not sure why people keep missing this about them, i never hear anyone complain about the other units that do this very thing.
Their durability is their only downfall, theyre quite squishy. Theyre amazing in minimum units that are meant to go after objective campers.
Vineheart01 wrote: you do realize they use both weapons at once right?
The claws are a free 2 additional attacks whenever "the bearer fights" - you dont opt to use them, they simply happen.
Each Ophydian is making 3/4 Hyperphase (depending on which one were talking about) attacks and 2 Claw attacks.
I'm not sure why people keep missing this about them, i never hear anyone complain about the other units that do this very thing.
Their durability is their only downfall, theyre quite squishy. Theyre amazing in minimum units that are meant to go after objective campers.
Nobody is missing the point. I'm saying I don't like the way their weapons are and I'm sure others agree. They are underwhelming for their points because of the split profile. Like I said above, if you could choose to have only one weapon set per model at a reduced overall cost, they'd be pretty good.
It feels like a unit that was made by a committee who managed to take a cool concept and ruin it.
Vineheart01 wrote: you do realize they use both weapons at once right?
The claws are a free 2 additional attacks whenever "the bearer fights" - you dont opt to use them, they simply happen.
Each Ophydian is making 3/4 Hyperphase (depending on which one were talking about) attacks and 2 Claw attacks.
I'm not sure why people keep missing this about them, i never hear anyone complain about the other units that do this very thing.
Their durability is their only downfall, theyre quite squishy. Theyre amazing in minimum units that are meant to go after objective campers.
Yes, I know they make attacks with both weapons. The problem is each weapon type is specialised towards killing a different type of unit so regardless of what they face it always feels like you're paying for something that you don't want. They're only good at dealing with objective campers if they can make it into combat out of Deep Strike, assuming they aren't screened out. If they don't make it to combat they likely just die. I don't think that's a great use of the points they cost.
LiMunPai wrote: How are you guys handling squads of 6 Inceptors with Apo, reroll support, and deep strike screening?
Well, Lychguard with shields can at least not die in one go to five of them.
That's something I guess.
Really the issue is that Plasceptors are just an oppressive unit in general and I don't think there are many answers to them. The points increase didn't go far enough and while the above suggestions are really good, I think most armies are just in a situation where we're all kind of waiting for another points increase to hit them.
If you buff up the 5 Plasma Inceptors to hitting on 2's and rerolling 1's, they kill 10 lychguard 50% of the time. Chapter master buff on 3's gets there a little less than that. 6 Inceptors with either buff do it almost every time. The Lychguard are just as vulnerable as 5+ invuln warriors.
More than that, chipping at either lychguard or warriors before firing the overcharged inceptor salvo is highly effective at denying RP to the majority of the unit. I think any list we field with big bricks of RP infantry in them should have a plan for dealing with buffed plasma inceptors.
Vineheart01 wrote: you do realize they use both weapons at once right?
The claws are a free 2 additional attacks whenever "the bearer fights" - you dont opt to use them, they simply happen.
Each Ophydian is making 3/4 Hyperphase (depending on which one were talking about) attacks and 2 Claw attacks.
I'm not sure why people keep missing this about them, i never hear anyone complain about the other units that do this very thing.
Their durability is their only downfall, theyre quite squishy. Theyre amazing in minimum units that are meant to go after objective campers.
Yes, I know they make attacks with both weapons. The problem is each weapon type is specialised towards killing a different type of unit so regardless of what they face it always feels like you're paying for something that you don't want. They're only good at dealing with objective campers if they can make it into combat out of Deep Strike, assuming they aren't screened out. If they don't make it to combat they likely just die. I don't think that's a great use of the points they cost.
I can't help but agree here. In Novokh, where they have the highest probability of making their deep strike charge, they still fail 1/3 of the time after using a CP reroll and usually die immediately after. They need another +1 to charge rolls from somewhere to get some play.
Yeah ophydians could definitely do with a bit of a rework.
Keep the mixed weapon profiles and 35ppm, but get rid of all this tunnelling horror bs and give them 12" move with advance and charge. Make them into a real glass cannon, not some confused flayed one that missed the memo on wearing skin. No reason they couldn't be T5 either like every other destroyer but that's by the by.
So make them even more into psuedo Wraiths...? I'd do the complete opposite personally. Drop the mixed weapons entirely, have either threshers or claws as the options and lean into a deep striking light infantry killing role. Thematically I'd even make them Necrons who have both the Flayer and Destroyer virus
Problem is because of the model sculpts, GW have married themselves to these stupid rules forever.
Hmm, is it just me or none of the heavy support choices we have for anti tank look that good? They all have some flaws, like lessor shooting when they move, or fragile (heavy destroyers and Doom scythes), or flat out not great as anti tank (barges).
I'm looking at starting up a necron force myself. I've got quite a lot of them, from 3x the necron half of Indomitus, plus the old Forgebane set.
Looking at the list I have some observations:
- The guys in Indomitus tend to not be able to access relic weapons because they start out with the wrong stuff. No blood scythe or voltaic staff, for example. But this might be fine as I need someone to carry the VoD anyway, and their equipment is sort of ok already.
- HQ slots are at a real premium. If I play a battalion I'd generally expect to use them all. The first seems to go by default to a CCB with the voltaic staff and -1D trait and the second to a pair of crypteks, at least one of which is a Chronomancer.
- The third HQ is where you start to have more options. One of the destroyer Lords might be good. A second noble of some sort (maybe even a second CCB) could also work. Maybe a Psychomancer would be handy for obsec schenanigans.
- For troops I think I want at least 2x20 warriors and more likely 3x20. I built the first ones I had split between flayers and reapers but now I feel like I'd nearly always be better off with reapers.
- There are two main options I'm considering for the rest of my list: shooty or melee. Melee means units of wraiths and skorpekhs. Shooty means doomstalkers (with technomancer), tomb blades and so on. A C'tan would be an option for either type and wraiths are always great.
- The third HQ is where you start to have more options. One of the destroyer Lords might be good. A second noble of some sort (maybe even a second CCB) could also work. Maybe a Psychomancer would be handy for obsec schenanigans.
The Destroyer lords are ok, they aren't really great. I think there was a huge missed opportunity in the codex to make the destroyer synergies better. As is they don't really buff much and aren't spectacular in combat so.. They are serviceable if you like the model(not the most competitive). Psychomancer is awkward because of the timing that he turns off obsec(comes after you score primary) so he's more difficult to use than you'd think(can be used to maybe deny your opponent primary but not guarantee yourself primary).
Don't write off the Royal Warden, he's been an all star in most games I've played. Being able to fallback, shoot and charge with a 20 block of warriors is very powerful.
- For troops I think I want at least 2x20 warriors and more likely 3x20. I built the first ones I had split between flayers and reapers but now I feel like I'd nearly always be better off with reapers.
Probably want all reapers, they are significantly better than flayers in almost every regard.
Mandragola wrote: I'm looking at starting up a necron force myself. I've got quite a lot of them, from 3x the necron half of Indomitus, plus the old Forgebane set.
Looking at the list I have some observations:
- The guys in Indomitus tend to not be able to access relic weapons because they start out with the wrong stuff. No blood scythe or voltaic staff, for example. But this might be fine as I need someone to carry the VoD anyway, and their equipment is sort of ok already.
- HQ slots are at a real premium. If I play a battalion I'd generally expect to use them all. The first seems to go by default to a CCB with the voltaic staff and -1D trait and the second to a pair of crypteks, at least one of which is a Chronomancer.
- The third HQ is where you start to have more options. One of the destroyer Lords might be good. A second noble of some sort (maybe even a second CCB) could also work. Maybe a Psychomancer would be handy for obsec schenanigans.
- For troops I think I want at least 2x20 warriors and more likely 3x20. I built the first ones I had split between flayers and reapers but now I feel like I'd nearly always be better off with reapers.
- There are two main options I'm considering for the rest of my list: shooty or melee. Melee means units of wraiths and skorpekhs. Shooty means doomstalkers (with technomancer), tomb blades and so on. A C'tan would be an option for either type and wraiths are always great.
Does it sound like I have roughly the right idea?
It's always nice to start a new project.
I'd consider a well-rounded force that can battle the enemy at all threat ranges.
In this thread you will find a lot of information about tactics and army building.
I'd start - as you said - with some Warrior units, say 2x20 or even 3x20.
They could be the backbone of your army. The enemy will target them but they are not easy to shift.
Then you need some cc units either for stepping forward approaching the enemy like Wraiths or counter-attack units like Skorpekhs.
As a warlord, you could take The Silent King or an Overload on CCB. Lumbering HQs have more downsides. *Mancers are there to bolster your army well.
It's annoying about the warriors I've built with flayers. When Indomitus came out the flayer seemed like the better option, but the codex has put the reaper way ahead. Oh well.
The Psychomancer probably doesn't help all that much with primaries, other than by sometimes denying them to the enemy. But I think it could be good for achieving secondaries like domination. I think I'll generally take the all-obsec trait so things like wraiths and even scarabs will be able to steal objectives from time to time. So essentially it's the timing is unfortunate for scoring primary, but useful for being able to do it after you've moved, shot and so on, when you can see the state of the board and intervene as needed.
I also like his upgrade that lets you do D3 mortal wounds with completely free targeting. This, combined with some splash wounds from C'tan and malevolent arcing could make life pretty uncomfortable for enemy characters. There's starting to be a bit of a trend towards big units of things like deathwing knights with a lot of characters in support, so the abilities that do MWs to all units within X" of a target unit start to look increasingly fun.
yeah its not like flayers are dead weight, they just dont do as much damage.
But if the battlefield is cluttered they can be useful, since reapers will often not be able to shoot at all.
I think the only time I'd ever run gauss flayers now is if I take the custom dynasty for full rapid fire if you stand still. It is not exactly a fun way to play but it could work.
As I was putting my list together, I ended up putting together one 20-robit squad of Flayers, which will advance with the Immortals and CCB. My intention is to put another 20-robit with Reapers and put them in a Night Scythe.
I'm picking up Nightbringer but I'm a bit worried about him lasting beyond the second turn; is the best bet just to tuck your C'tans out of LoS? Hard to see another way to keep them safe. It's 10 PM. Do you know where your Star Gods are?
Well, suppose he's out of LoS Turn 1, he'd be safe from smites, and LoS-ignoring shooting only gets 3 wounds off. Likely not loosing 3 wounds in the fight phase that turn. Turn 2, living metal gets him back to seven wounds. If your opponent can spam smites then he could loose 3 in the Psychic Phase - but it seems other than specialty lists people aren't spamming Psykers this edition. So three more wounds in the shooting phase, between 4 and 1 wounds remaining.
I suppose that gives you one more turn to get him into combat. Please let me know if I'm missing anything. I've only got to play one game of 9th ed so far, and the past 10 years I've been playing Chaos Marines and tend to overestimate a unit's durability. Cheers.
Don Qui Hotep wrote: As I was putting my list together, I ended up putting together one 20-robit squad of Flayers, which will advance with the Immortals and CCB. My intention is to put another 20-robit with Reapers and put them in a Night Scythe.
I'm picking up Nightbringer but I'm a bit worried about him lasting beyond the second turn; is the best bet just to tuck your C'tans out of LoS? Hard to see another way to keep them safe. It's 10 PM. Do you know where your Star Gods are?
Well, suppose he's out of LoS Turn 1, he'd be safe from smites, and LoS-ignoring shooting only gets 3 wounds off. Likely not loosing 3 wounds in the fight phase that turn. Turn 2, living metal gets him back to seven wounds. If your opponent can spam smites then he could loose 3 in the Psychic Phase - but it seems other than specialty lists people aren't spamming Psykers this edition. So three more wounds in the shooting phase, between 4 and 1 wounds remaining.
I suppose that gives you one more turn to get him into combat. Please let me know if I'm missing anything. I've only got to play one game of 9th ed so far, and the past 10 years I've been playing Chaos Marines and tend to overestimate a unit's durability. Cheers.
Best thing you can do is threat saturation - I put warriors and lots of other threats on the table like doom scythes and LHD - typically void dragon gets ignored. Also - I would advise void dragon or Tctan over the night bringer. Night bringer is a beast but too expensive. You want the longer range ctan spells - they have way more impact.
I think the Void Dragon is brilliant if you bring enough melee units to handle everything else. Can just sit him in midfield and bully vehicles. I'm defo going to buy one soon, shame on GW for charging over £60 for it though.
Cynista wrote: I think the Void Dragon is brilliant if you bring enough melee units to handle everything else. Can just sit him in midfield and bully vehicles. I'm defo going to buy one soon, shame on GW for charging over £60 for it though.
I had to have it right away. A few quid over priced but what isn't that GW is selling?
Don Qui Hotep wrote: As I was putting my list together, I ended up putting together one 20-robit squad of Flayers, which will advance with the Immortals and CCB. My intention is to put another 20-robit with Reapers and put them in a Night Scythe.
I'm picking up Nightbringer but I'm a bit worried about him lasting beyond the second turn; is the best bet just to tuck your C'tans out of LoS? Hard to see another way to keep them safe. It's 10 PM. Do you know where your Star Gods are?
Well, suppose he's out of LoS Turn 1, he'd be safe from smites, and LoS-ignoring shooting only gets 3 wounds off. Likely not loosing 3 wounds in the fight phase that turn. Turn 2, living metal gets him back to seven wounds. If your opponent can spam smites then he could loose 3 in the Psychic Phase - but it seems other than specialty lists people aren't spamming Psykers this edition. So three more wounds in the shooting phase, between 4 and 1 wounds remaining.
I suppose that gives you one more turn to get him into combat. Please let me know if I'm missing anything. I've only got to play one game of 9th ed so far, and the past 10 years I've been playing Chaos Marines and tend to overestimate a unit's durability. Cheers.
Best thing you can do is threat saturation - I put warriors and lots of other threats on the table like doom scythes and LHD - typically void dragon gets ignored. Also - I would advise void dragon or Tctan over the night bringer. Night bringer is a beast but too expensive. You want the longer range ctan spells - they have way more impact.
So the c'tan are in an interesting spot right now, I think if you're only planning on running 1 c'tan then the Nightbringer might not be the best, but if you're planning on running multiple then he should be a very serious contender in your list. It really depends on the role you're looking to fill, as the playstyle for fielding 1 c'tan over multiple shards is actually very different. Generally you want to play cagey with the c'tan and use them to spam mortals - the transcendent especially isnt that powerful in CC and has a tendency to get tar pitted if your opponent does get too close. The Nightbringer is obviously an exception to this, but because of this, people like to focus him down unless you do as Xenos said and present multiple threats at once on a turn you want the NB to be potentially charging. This kind of fits with the silvertides up close and punchy play style, but generally you'll get more out of the silent king in the same position if you are running a silver tide.
We've seen recently a trend toward big, durable centre piece models coming out of the new codexs - the Nightbringer is without a doubt the best individual unit we have in dealing with your opponents high wound, high toughness, high invun models. Gaze of Death is IMO the best power outside of Sky of Falling Stars. Yeah the range on it is short, but you can target enemy characters freely and, if you spike, doing 9 mortals to a single unit before charging is absolutely brutal. Multiple c'tan lists can weirdly lack this sort of super heavy focus damage without the NB, and as I mentioned earlier, can be pretty liable to tarpitting without him.
Really what I'm trying to say is that the c'tan can be very matchup dependent. If you play a lot of Dark Angels or Death Guard then the mortals from multiple shards are really gonna help make their points back quickly, or even just the threat of the NB into Morty can greatly influence the game, but you're gonna have a bad time if you play the same list into an ork army with 80+ gretchen and 18 smasha guns. As such, I don't actually think they're our most competitive choices, regardless of wether you're running multiple or not, but are on the rise at the moment because they're a great way of getting round things like permanent transhuman physiology.
I've put together a couple of lists with Nightbringer actually, one of which attempts to make use of multiple C'tan. The idea here is to throw mortal wounds around like they're going out of fashion. Hopefully this will make life pretty uncomfortable for people like apothecaries, while also hurting elite models quite a lot.
I thought my flayer warriors might work in 10-skelly blobs as Sautekh but honestly for rapid fire it looks to me like Immortals are simply better. They do more damage and are much tougher, point for point. Plus units are cheaper so they let me fit in more fun stuff, but they're easier to hide and better for actions.
C+C on this list would be most welcome. Note, I lose command protocols but I'm not sure I care.
Sautekh Battalion
Imotekh the Stormlord (Warlord) 145
Plasmancer 70
5 Immortals (Gauss) 85
5 Immortals (Gauss) 85
5 Immortals (Gauss) 85
C'tan Shard of the Void Dragon 350
Rad-Wreathed/Expansionist Patrol
Overlord 125
Voltaic Staff
Resurrection Orb
Thrall of the Silent King
I still like the idea of one, if not two C'tans in my list. The reason being that against certain matchups, C'tans are extremely hard to kill. Some armies that rely on shooting only, like Tau would have a tough time killing a C'tan. Even against armies that have shooting, melee and psychic, it depends on how you position your C'tans. You can use scarabs or necron warriors to screen out smites and prevent C'tans from being hit by melee.
A C'tan moving up behind a massive Necron block of warriors can survive a long time if the opponent cannot get into the C'tan melee engagement range or smite the C'tan due to the melee block. 4 or even 5 turns of that C'tan spamming its two powers every turn would be potent. (Not to mention it can serve as a counter charge to anything threatening the necron warriors in melee).
Also, we are seeing more and more "unkillable" or extremely hard to kill stuff like Mortarion, big bloc of deathwing termi, etc. where mortal wounds are better served than any anti-tank weapon we might have. (And let's be honest, our heavy support choices aren't exactly the best either).
I think I agree that C'tan are viable. If you have one then, while it's true you might meet someone good at killing them, it's not really so bad if they do. You don't auto-lose from having your C'tan die. And they're great in the right situations so it's worth the risk.
Alternatively, I think taking multiple C'tan puts you in a place where few people are going to easily take them all out. And the mortal wounds they spam themselves will start to seriously threaten the stuff (especially psykers) that would be a threat to them.
Mandragola wrote: I think I agree that C'tan are viable. If you have one then, while it's true you might meet someone good at killing them, it's not really so bad if they do. You don't auto-lose from having your C'tan die. And they're great in the right situations so it's worth the risk.
Alternatively, I think taking multiple C'tan puts you in a place where few people are going to easily take them all out. And the mortal wounds they spam themselves will start to seriously threaten the stuff (especially psykers) that would be a threat to them.
Oh no I certainly think they're viable, sorry if my previous post made it out that they weren't - I just think that right now they're the most viable they've been in a while, but are still weaker to bad matchups when you're running multiples; which in turn makes them difficult to be truly consistent at a competitive level.
I actually liked your list Mandragola, you've got a lot of those horde clearing elements that really help the c'tan as well as some nice action monkeys in the immortals - it certainly seems well balanced
Cheers. I actually realised I don’t need so many immortals, as Imotekh’s detachment could also be a patrol. Dropping two squads would let me take 5 wraiths, putting another real threat on the board. I could potentially go a bit more conventional by trading the three crypteks for 6 skorpekh destroyers. That might be a fun list with a lot of aggression, though maybe a lack of utility.
Edit: ok let's see what I can do if I stop mucking about with all those Crypteks.
Sautekh Patrol
Imotekh the Stormlord (Warlord) 145
5 Immortals (Gauss) 85
C'tan Shard of the Void Dragon 350
Eternal Expansionist Patrol
Catacomb Command Barge 180
Gauss Cannon
Res orb
Enduring Will
Voltaic Staff
Chronomancer 80
Veil of Darkness
20 Warriors (Reapers) 260
20 Warriors (Reapers) 260
5 Deathmarks 90
C'tan shard of the Nightbringer 370
5 Wraiths 175
I like this codex. There are a lot of different ways to play. So many units have utility in all sorts of different ways and there's a job to do balancing utility vs threat. The deathmarks here are an interesting option as I think they might be well-placed to take advantage if I cause some splash mortal wounds to characters here and there. Mostly though, they're in the list for scramblers and stuff like that. I could drop them and the Chronomancer for another 5 wraiths but I think I want the action utility. I'd better buy some deathmarks!
If I was gonna go with double Ctan. I would certainly do it in a Szarekhan list with the silent king. It will give you 2 denies per turn to protect those Ctan from psychic powers.
I'd go for a Tctan and a voiddragon. It will also protect you from your own explosions. Keep in mind all these models blow up on a 4+. LOL.
Thanks for the feedback on the C'tan choice, seems like there's a few options. I'm still interested in Nightbringer (and he's already shipped out of Memphis to my apartment), but if I don't like how he plays I can proxy him for a different shard. Here's my 2000 point list as it stands now. Any input would be appreciated.
Spoiler:
1995 Pts, 100 PL, 11 CP
Dynasty: Szarekhan
HQ CCB - Gauss Cannon, Voltaic Staff, Rez Orb. WT: Enduring Will
Royal Warden: Veil of Darkness
Technomancer: Canoptek Cloak
Chronomancer: Entropic Lance, Prismatic Obfuscation
Troops
20 x Warriors with Flayers
20 x Warriors with Reapers
10 x Immortals with Blasters
Elites
Nightbringer, Transdimensional Thunderbolt
Fast Attack
8 x Scarab Swarm
Heavy Support
3 x Lokhust Destroyer
1 x Heavy Destroyer, Gauss Destructor
Flyer
Night Scythe
The only purchases "locked in" are the five immortals, 20x flayers, CCB, Royal Warden, and Destroyers. I saved the death ray and could swap the Night Scythe for a Doom Scythe if need be, or run the Nightbringer as a Transcendent C'tan and free up more points. Due to no (2000 point) games since the beginning of the pandemic, I'm still thinking in terms of 8th edition (and Chaos Marines!) so if there's anything I'm overlooking, or assumptions I shouldn't be making please let me know. Growth mindset!
Even if one is a TCtan thats more than half your army in 3 models, which in 9th is generally a bad idea. And you need 2 patrols for the Ctans.
The rest of the army is pretty much immortals in that list. Have not run it before but In theory it could work.
Chrono
Techno
27 immortals
20 warriors
Tctan
Voiddragon
SK
Even got some room for upgrades on the cryptics too.
I also made a list with this same concept that I was hoping to get some critiques on in the army list forum. I feel like it answers the above guy's question too, but if anyone else has some thoughts on it that'd be cool. you can find it here https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/796975.page
If you are able to screen out effectively enough, psychic bullets will have a challenge to hurt you. Not all psychic books have targeted psychic and even if they did, not every player brings them. Most fall back on just Smite if they have psychic, and smite is only on the nearest visible. As long as you maintain a screen in front of your C'tan, there is no way a smite can hurt it.
A C'tan is about getting the best value before it dies. If it can survive for even 4 turns before dying I think it should have made its points back. Because 4 turns of spamming multiple mortal wounds every turn is quite a lot, plus that last turn where you charge it into combat because you know it will die the next turn anyway. And if your opponent played conservatively in order to try and keep out of its MW spam range while you pushed it forward with the rest of your army, then he is losing ground and likely giving up the midboard objectives too. So, the value of a C'tan is more than just what it kills.
This is why I favour 2 C'tan and no heavy support. (Want to try such a list). I feel that the heavy support Necrons do have in their list is kinda swingy and not really that great anyway. And 2 C'tan spamming two MW C'tan powers each turns is a way to mitigate not relying on heavy support. Just one C'tan alone may not be enough MW spam, but two will definitely give players pause. Spamming 3 C'tans probably turns the list into a skewed list that autowin some matchups and autolose to other matchups. But 2 might be that sweet spot because its just two patrols, or 1 patrol and 1 other detachment.
Eldenfirefly wrote: This is why I favour 2 C'tan and no heavy support. (Want to try such a list). I feel that the heavy support Necrons do have in their list is kinda swingy and not really that great anyway. And 2 C'tan spamming two MW C'tan powers each turns is a way to mitigate not relying on heavy support. Just one C'tan alone may not be enough MW spam, but two will definitely give players pause. Spamming 3 C'tans probably turns the list into a skewed list that autowin some matchups and autolose to other matchups. But 2 might be that sweet spot because its just two patrols, or 1 patrol and 1 other detachment.
I agree with this. The HS options, as for lots of armies actually, just seem a bit weak in an objective-based game. C’tan are a melee threat as well as dropping mortal wounds and that’s much more relevant, most of the time.
I don’t love the list with the silent king and two c’tan. The SK is partly strong because of all the buffs he hands out, but you need some stuff for him to buff. And you still need some action monkeys and stuff too. The list might work if dropped things like the spyder and scarabs to have a couple of big warrior blocks and chronomancers. Really, it’s just a big stretch to fit the three big guys in there.
My void dragon and nightbringer have arrived. I’m going to have to do quite a bit of green stuff work to nightbringer to make him look like an equivalent unit to the massive VD.
^
That sounds like quite the project! I'd love to see pics when its done!
In a similar vein does anyone think running the Deceiver and the Nightbringer in a list would work? I would imagine you would want lots of warriors or immortals and scarabs to screen them.
Eldenfirefly wrote: This is why I favour 2 C'tan and no heavy support. (Want to try such a list). I feel that the heavy support Necrons do have in their list is kinda swingy and not really that great anyway. And 2 C'tan spamming two MW C'tan powers each turns is a way to mitigate not relying on heavy support. Just one C'tan alone may not be enough MW spam, but two will definitely give players pause. Spamming 3 C'tans probably turns the list into a skewed list that autowin some matchups and autolose to other matchups. But 2 might be that sweet spot because its just two patrols, or 1 patrol and 1 other detachment.
I agree with this. The HS options, as for lots of armies actually, just seem a bit weak in an objective-based game. C’tan are a melee threat as well as dropping mortal wounds and that’s much more relevant, most of the time.
I don’t love the list with the silent king and two c’tan. The SK is partly strong because of all the buffs he hands out, but you need some stuff for him to buff. And you still need some action monkeys and stuff too. The list might work if dropped things like the spyder and scarabs to have a couple of big warrior blocks and chronomancers. Really, it’s just a big stretch to fit the three big guys in there.
My void dragon and nightbringer have arrived. I’m going to have to do quite a bit of green stuff work to nightbringer to make him look like an equivalent unit to the massive VD.
CTan are CP heavy. You need the bonus CP he provides If you are bringing 2 ctan IMO and since all you can really afford if mass infantry at that point in your list - you might as well buff them up to make them effective.
Eldenfirefly wrote: This is why I favour 2 C'tan and no heavy support. (Want to try such a list). I feel that the heavy support Necrons do have in their list is kinda swingy and not really that great anyway. And 2 C'tan spamming two MW C'tan powers each turns is a way to mitigate not relying on heavy support. Just one C'tan alone may not be enough MW spam, but two will definitely give players pause. Spamming 3 C'tans probably turns the list into a skewed list that autowin some matchups and autolose to other matchups. But 2 might be that sweet spot because its just two patrols, or 1 patrol and 1 other detachment.
I agree with this. The HS options, as for lots of armies actually, just seem a bit weak in an objective-based game. C’tan are a melee threat as well as dropping mortal wounds and that’s much more relevant, most of the time.
I don’t love the list with the silent king and two c’tan. The SK is partly strong because of all the buffs he hands out, but you need some stuff for him to buff. And you still need some action monkeys and stuff too. The list might work if dropped things like the spyder and scarabs to have a couple of big warrior blocks and chronomancers. Really, it’s just a big stretch to fit the three big guys in there.
My void dragon and nightbringer have arrived. I’m going to have to do quite a bit of green stuff work to nightbringer to make him look like an equivalent unit to the massive VD.
CTan are CP heavy. You need the bonus CP he provides If you are bringing 2 ctan IMO and since all you can really afford if mass infantry at that point in your list - you might as well buff them up to make them effective.
Agreed. I was talking about Parsalian's list (sorry, that probably wasn't clear) and that doesn't include much infantry at all. I think the SK probably combos well with something like Anrakyr and a couple of blocks of 20 Novokh warriors - or something similar.
I don't think the SK combos particularly well with C'tan. It's not awful but it seems like a bit of a waste of the amazing buffs the SK hands out. Surely you want to prioritise units that actually benefit from those buffs rather than C'tan, who don't.
The CP issue is real. My idea was to take Imotekh as my Warlord. He brings 2 CPs and his trait regenerates them on a 5+. I think his once-per-game lightning bomb combos pretty well with the mortal wound spam that C'tan chuck around as well. I'm looking at a two-patrol list with a Voltaic staff CCB leading the other one, so I can chuck malevolent arcing around as well, to really maximise the splash mortal wound pain. I'm not sure whether to go with all Sautekh or (perhaps more likely) a patrol of Sautekh and another of relentless expansionists. Actually most of my stuff is already obsec - or a C'tan that doesn't benefit - so going all-Sautekh might be the way forward. It would give a use to my 20 Flayer warriors, too.
I've no idea if this is a good approach of course. It involves a lot of randomness and the power varies a lot depending on how the enemy deploys. Sounds like fun though. And it's cool how many different ways it seems to be possible to build a Necron army.
Yeah the CP flexibility Sautekh gives you is good for the double c'tan lists. Especially if you do have a couple immortals squads in a Sautekh patrol as well; they make good use of the rapid fire at 18".
On a different note though, I've been revisiting the warrior builds recently as I still think they're our most consistent build at a competitive level. One of the main things that warriors can struggle with is mortals as they get around the reanimation protocols fairly consistently and we're seeing a rise in mortal spam (like you guys are discussing) thanks for DG, DA, and in part our silver bad boys too.
In Szarekhan you get a 5+ against mortals. Their unique relic let's core units within 9" be affected by both directives of the turns current protocol. You can then pair this with thrall of the SK to boost the aura to 12", on something like a CCB that's a massive aura. Their warlord trait also let's you use 4 protocols and select one of them over two turns. You pay 1CP to have this on another character if you're not taking the SK
The warriors aren't great in CC outside of Novokh but you can have something like fall back and shoot over 2 turns, paired with reanimators that also make use of the extra 3" aura range
Or all your warriors get the benefit of light cover, plus overwatching on 5s
The re-roll wounds is great for the chronomancers entropic lance too, you could also have some 1 man units of destroyers performing backfield actions and still shooting with ridiculous efficiency
The main thing is though, the 5+ against mortals covers one of the warriors biggest weaknesses, so I think its definitely worth trying to double down on that added durability. You take like 60 warriors, 3 chronos, ccb with res orb and the protocol shenanigans, 3 reanimators and 3 min squads of destroyers in a battalion, while for secondaries pick stuff like WWSWF and purge the vermin. The destroyers are still cheaper than min squads of immortals for performing actions and the reanimators can also perform ancient machines while also using their reanimator beams (as they're not characters) if you ever want to to take that.
You've still got plenty of pts left over at that point too for something like lychguard if you dont end up with the SK
TheNEWnew wrote: Yeah the CP flexibility Sautekh gives you is good for the double c'tan lists. Especially if you do have a couple immortals squads in a Sautekh patrol as well; they make good use of the rapid fire at 18".
On a different note though, I've been revisiting the warrior builds recently as I still think they're our most consistent build at a competitive level. One of the main things that warriors can struggle with is mortals as they get around the reanimation protocols fairly consistently and we're seeing a rise in mortal spam (like you guys are discussing) thanks for DG, DA, and in part our silver bad boys too.
In Szarekhan you get a 5+ against mortals. Their unique relic let's core units within 9" be affected by both directives of the turns current protocol. You can then pair this with thrall of the SK to boost the aura to 12", on something like a CCB that's a massive aura. Their warlord trait also let's you use 4 protocols and select one of them over two turns. You pay 1CP to have this on another character if you're not taking the SK
The warriors aren't great in CC outside of Novokh but you can have something like fall back and shoot over 2 turns, paired with reanimators that also make use of the extra 3" aura range
Or all your warriors get the benefit of light cover, plus overwatching on 5s
The re-roll wounds is great for the chronomancers entropic lance too, you could also have some 1 man units of destroyers performing backfield actions and still shooting with ridiculous efficiency
The main thing is though, the 5+ against mortals covers one of the warriors biggest weaknesses, so I think its definitely worth trying to double down on that added durability. You take like 60 warriors, 3 chronos, ccb with res orb and the protocol shenanigans, 3 reanimators and 3 min squads of destroyers in a battalion, while for secondaries pick stuff like WWSWF and purge the vermin. The destroyers are still cheaper than min squads of immortals for performing actions and the reanimators can also perform ancient machines while also using their reanimator beams (as they're not characters) if you ever want to to take that.
You've still got plenty of pts left over at that point too for something like lychguard if you dont end up with the SK
MY szarekhan list is undefeated. Used it in multiple configurations. The core that never changes though is
SK 20 Reaper warriors
chrono with lance and veil
Techno with Relic staff
10x Telsa immortals
10x Gauss immortals
1 DDA 2x LHD
It then gives you a lot of roam to play with -
Can through in a Void dragon and some Lych
Can throw in a flyer and some tomb blades.
it does just fine ether way. So many good units in this army.
MY szarekhan list is undefeated. Used it in multiple configurations. The core that never changes though is
SK 20 Reaper warriors
chrono with lance and veil
Techno with Relic staff
10x Telsa immortals
10x Gauss immortals
1 DDA 2x LHD
It then gives you a lot of roam to play with -
Can through in a Void dragon and some Lych
Can throw in a flyer and some tomb blades.
it does just fine ether way. So many good units in this army.
That's very interesting. I'm surprised to see some of those units, especially the tesla immortals and LHDs. Could you say a bit more about what makes those units so good please? To be honest I'm not seeing it.
This is the closest I've come to a "horde" army, with the blocks of 20 warriors. I've got the first unit about 75% done I think. It's not too bad actually, with contrast paint and drybrushing.
You've still got plenty of pts left over at that point too for something like lychguard if you dont end up with the SK MY szarekhan list is undefeated. Used it in multiple configurations. The core that never changes though is
SK 20 Reaper warriors
chrono with lance and veil
Techno with Relic staff
10x Telsa immortals
10x Gauss immortals
1 DDA 2x LHD
It then gives you a lot of roam to play with -
Can through in a Void dragon and some Lych
Can throw in a flyer and some tomb blades.
it does just fine ether way. So many good units in this army.
Don't see yet how this army is played.
SK, Warriors, and Immortals in the backfield first and then approaching the center of the board for board control and making points?
LHD and DDA give fire support.
How about counter-attack units or units approaching the front-ranks of the enemy?
You've still got plenty of pts left over at that point too for something like lychguard if you dont end up with the SK MY szarekhan list is undefeated. Used it in multiple configurations. The core that never changes though is
SK 20 Reaper warriors
chrono with lance and veil
Techno with Relic staff
10x Telsa immortals
10x Gauss immortals
1 DDA 2x LHD
It then gives you a lot of roam to play with -
Can through in a Void dragon and some Lych
Can throw in a flyer and some tomb blades.
it does just fine ether way. So many good units in this army.
Don't see yet how this army is played.
SK, Warriors, and Immortals in the backfield first and then approaching the center of the board for board control and making points?
LHD and DDA give fire support.
How about counter-attack units or units approaching the front-ranks of the enemy?
Shunt 20 warriors to the front and mostly the rest army converges to them.
The heavy supports hold the back objectives.
If there are 2 central objectives the rest of the army converges more central and attempt to get 10 immortals on the other objective.
I find lych serve the counter attack/ protect the lines roll best its a toss up between them and tomb blades though because the blades have way better mobility and this list really lacks mobility.
Example.
The same core above^
9x Lychgaurd
drop to 9 gauss immortals
and a doom scythe.
Lots of firepower
Lots of staying power.
For objectives it can be tough deciding. However - You do so much damage in the first few turns. Scoring objectives becomes pretty easy.
Typically kill more
Engage
Assasinate/Necron special mission or mission primary.
MY szarekhan list is undefeated. Used it in multiple configurations. The core that never changes though is
SK 20 Reaper warriors
chrono with lance and veil
Techno with Relic staff
10x Telsa immortals
10x Gauss immortals
1 DDA 2x LHD
It then gives you a lot of roam to play with -
Can through in a Void dragon and some Lych
Can throw in a flyer and some tomb blades.
it does just fine ether way. So many good units in this army.
That's very interesting. I'm surprised to see some of those units, especially the tesla immortals and LHDs. Could you say a bit more about what makes those units so good please? To be honest I'm not seeing it.
This is the closest I've come to a "horde" army, with the blocks of 20 warriors. I've got the first unit about 75% done I think. It's not too bad actually, with contrast paint and drybrushing.
Tesla immortals are great with silent king and for getting onto objectives. They put out 25 hits on average rerolling all hits plus can use the malevolent arcing strat. Which has huge potential tac mortals all over the place. Typically with a good advance you can get them onto a mid field objective on the first turn.
LHD are fantastic with the Szarekhan dynasty trait. With a reroll to wound per unit - you are essentially wounding every time. With 3d3 damage that is just utterly massive.With 4 wounds t5 - it is usually drawing premium firepower to drop them too. You can use them in a mission to perform actions if you need. The correct strategy is to kill them quickly - sometimes though - it just doesn't fit into an opponents battle plan - or they dont have the right weapons to do it. In those situations - these units becomes MVP.
Tesla immortals are great with silent king and for getting onto objectives. They put out 25 hits on average rerolling all hits plus can use the malevolent arcing strat. Which has huge potential tac mortals all over the place. Typically with a good advance you can get them onto a mid field objective on the first turn.
LHD are fantastic with the Szarekhan dynasty trait. With a reroll to wound per unit - you are essentially wounding every time. With 3d3 damage that is just utterly massive.With 4 wounds t5 - it is usually drawing premium firepower to drop them too. You can use them in a mission to perform actions if you need. The correct strategy is to kill them quickly - sometimes though - it just doesn't fit into an opponents battle plan - or they dont have the right weapons to do it. In those situations - these units becomes MVP.
Thanks for the answer. That's interesting. I can see that the LHDs are much improved by being Szarekhan, and are also pretty good action monkeys. I was a bit worried that they'd have no useful targets in some games, but I suppose they're still doing good things for you so that might not be much of a problem. I see people talking about taking things like Cryptothralls for actions but these guys don't cost all that much more, and have a really big gun. Cool, I guess. I probably don't play Szarekhan though. I'm planning to use deathmarks in a comparable role. Having the option to deep strike looks very useful.
I do like malevolent arcing so I try and get some tesla into every list. Normally that's the voltaic staff though. My issue with tesla is that it's so bad against marines, especially if they get 2+ saves somehow. I think I'd much prefer to have gauss for the ap, especially since it's cheaper.
I'm having to rethink immortals a bit because they seem pretty great. The difference between a T4 4+ save warrior and a T5 3+ save immortal is a lot, and the immortals also have much better guns. Plus the immortals have a better chance of getting cover bonuses due to smaller units.
its really just to put some heat on a big ball of units, usually characters or 2-3man squads that are bunched up.
Unless theres like 6-7 things it can potentially hit its not gonna do anything.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I've never seen the appeal of Malevolent Arching. 1 MW to 50/% of the units in an area is just irrelevant.
Depends on what you are facing. If it's harlequins. It is basically the best stratagem you have access to. Not the best vs primaris marines.
It works really good when you combine it with deathmarks and cstans though. Killing a character can win you the game.
Tesla immortals are great with silent king and for getting onto objectives. They put out 25 hits on average rerolling all hits plus can use the malevolent arcing strat. Which has huge potential tac mortals all over the place. Typically with a good advance you can get them onto a mid field objective on the first turn.
LHD are fantastic with the Szarekhan dynasty trait. With a reroll to wound per unit - you are essentially wounding every time. With 3d3 damage that is just utterly massive.With 4 wounds t5 - it is usually drawing premium firepower to drop them too. You can use them in a mission to perform actions if you need. The correct strategy is to kill them quickly - sometimes though - it just doesn't fit into an opponents battle plan - or they dont have the right weapons to do it. In those situations - these units becomes MVP.
Thanks for the answer. That's interesting. I can see that the LHDs are much improved by being Szarekhan, and are also pretty good action monkeys. I was a bit worried that they'd have no useful targets in some games, but I suppose they're still doing good things for you so that might not be much of a problem. I see people talking about taking things like Cryptothralls for actions but these guys don't cost all that much more, and have a really big gun. Cool, I guess. I probably don't play Szarekhan though. I'm planning to use deathmarks in a comparable role. Having the option to deep strike looks very useful.
I do like malevolent arcing so I try and get some tesla into every list. Normally that's the voltaic staff though. My issue with tesla is that it's so bad against marines, especially if they get 2+ saves somehow. I think I'd much prefer to have gauss for the ap, especially since it's cheaper.
I'm having to rethink immortals a bit because they seem pretty great. The difference between a T4 4+ save warrior and a T5 3+ save immortal is a lot, and the immortals also have much better guns. Plus the immortals have a better chance of getting cover bonuses due to smaller units.
In game in practice - gauss is rarely getting 2 shots - perhaps as sautec it would be a much better choice. It is true Tesla sucks vs 2+ saves. It is fine vs 3+ saves though. Tesla will between 2-3 times more wounds depending on the situation and 3+ vs 5+ you will twice as many 5+ compared to 3+.
Crons are so blessed though. On demand ignore cover stratagem makes sure that 3+ doesn't become a 2+ so your tesla is not useless.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I've never seen the appeal of Malevolent Arching. 1 MW to 50/% of the units in an area is just irrelevant.
Depends on what you are facing. If it's harlequins. It is basically the best stratagem you have access to. Not the best vs primaris marines.
It works really good when you combine it with deathmarks and cstans though. Killing a character can win you the game.
Tesla immortals are great with silent king and for getting onto objectives. They put out 25 hits on average rerolling all hits plus can use the malevolent arcing strat. Which has huge potential tac mortals all over the place. Typically with a good advance you can get them onto a mid field objective on the first turn.
LHD are fantastic with the Szarekhan dynasty trait. With a reroll to wound per unit - you are essentially wounding every time. With 3d3 damage that is just utterly massive.With 4 wounds t5 - it is usually drawing premium firepower to drop them too. You can use them in a mission to perform actions if you need. The correct strategy is to kill them quickly - sometimes though - it just doesn't fit into an opponents battle plan - or they dont have the right weapons to do it. In those situations - these units becomes MVP.
Thanks for the answer. That's interesting. I can see that the LHDs are much improved by being Szarekhan, and are also pretty good action monkeys. I was a bit worried that they'd have no useful targets in some games, but I suppose they're still doing good things for you so that might not be much of a problem. I see people talking about taking things like Cryptothralls for actions but these guys don't cost all that much more, and have a really big gun. Cool, I guess. I probably don't play Szarekhan though. I'm planning to use deathmarks in a comparable role. Having the option to deep strike looks very useful.
I do like malevolent arcing so I try and get some tesla into every list. Normally that's the voltaic staff though. My issue with tesla is that it's so bad against marines, especially if they get 2+ saves somehow. I think I'd much prefer to have gauss for the ap, especially since it's cheaper.
I'm having to rethink immortals a bit because they seem pretty great. The difference between a T4 4+ save warrior and a T5 3+ save immortal is a lot, and the immortals also have much better guns. Plus the immortals have a better chance of getting cover bonuses due to smaller units.
In game in practice - gauss is rarely getting 2 shots - perhaps as sautec it would be a much better choice. It is true Tesla sucks vs 2+ saves. It is fine vs 3+ saves though. Tesla will between 2-3 times more wounds depending on the situation and 3+ vs 5+ you will twice as many 5+ compared to 3+.
Crons are so blessed though. On demand ignore cover stratagem makes sure that 3+ doesn't become a 2+ so your tesla is not useless.
Yeah the T5 on immortals does make a big difference and imo a couple squads go a long way to filling their niche. People under commint to them a lot of the time which can make them seem more durable than they actually are; if they do get focused though you can expect to lose the squad, so I still think it's worth having that 20 man brick of 5++ warriors in most list for that durable core.
The other thing is Szarekhan LHDs are super efficient into MEQ and gravis. Hitting on 3s re-rolling 1s and wounding on 2s re-rolling with the 3d3 damage is as close to a guaranted kill as you'll ever get if they dont have an invun. So I wouldnt worry too much about having a lack of prime targets for them for the most part
punisher357 wrote: Does anyone have actual game experience using triarch stalkers?
I cant say from my personal experience but I can tell you what other people have said: they're borderline competitive, like a lot of the stuff in the codex.
Way back in the thread people were pretty hot on them, but the meta has changed a lot since. You pay 150pts for a stalker with gauss and a degrading profile, plus they're dynastic agents so don't get any benefits there.
If you really want the re-roll ones, 2 bare bones lords are still cheaper at 140pts and can put the same buff (that also works in combat) onto multiple units albeit core restricted.
I think there's still play for them, especially as a supporting piece for a Mephrit gunline or something, but even then I think you'd need to build around them fairly heavily at which point people forgo them for more powerful synergies
Lord = Reroll 1s for Core, works in melee/shooting Stalker = Reroll 1s for anybody targeting a specific unit, only shooting, can whiff.
My issue with the stalker is it has a pretty mean melee profile (its effectively our "dread" after all) but it really, really doesnt want melee because of that reroll ability.
Pretty much unless you are using Lokhusts or Doom-toting units the Lord is better since its so much cheaper and can carry an Orb. Downside is HQ slot...
Ive used the triarch stalker a few times and he hasnt really done that much imo. I find most targets i either mop the floor with without the rerolls, or i wasnt really denting in the first place so the rerolls caused like 1 or 2 more wounds. Though im curious about a pair of them, i need to try that one.
I was considering using a Triarch Stalker with Doomstalkers - very possibly Sautekh ones. The idea would be to take down tough things by having the stalker and some random Sautekh thing fire at them, to get +1 to hit and reroll 1s.
I don't own any of those things though, and I'm not sure it's how I'd like to play my necrons. It could be a viable approach though.
It doesn't combo at all well with Lokhusts, does it? It hands out rerolls of 1s, which they already have by default. Or am I missing something there?
FWIW I think a unit of Lokhust heavies could be a good alternative to this sort of thing. They just work without needing any buffs, supporting characters or whatever. They're also infantry that fly rather than enormous degrading vehicles.
I'm less sure about normal Lokhust destroyers. It feels like you lose a lot for those 15 points. They're enormously shooty though, especially in a marine-heavy meta.
I like the triarch but like many have said it is quite borderline.
IMO always take the heavy gauss. Then It can do some actual damage but it is gonna be really swingy with 3's to hit and 3's or 4's to wound it's prefered targets.
When you get 4-5 wounds with it though - it hurts with ap-3 D3 damage. It's reroll ability is pretty sweet but what I usually find is - You'd be better off finding 40-50 more points in your list to just take a doom scythe or a DDA.
I think their true place lies with monoliths which are also in the borderline area themselves.
The TS is quite good but not for the reroll 1's which is nothing to write home about. I like it as a ground holding unit in support of infantry. It's big, fast, shoots ok, hits ok, demands to be dealt with and can take more effort to kill than people expect. You can use them to block access to objectives quite easily
Warriors x 20 reapers
Warriors x 20 reapers
Warriors x 10 flayers
Ghost arc
Warriors x 10 flayers
Ghost arc
Stalker-gauss
Stalker- gauss
Skorpekh x 4
Two warrior bricks that have 5++, quantum shielding spam backing it up. Either try and play peek a boo with the stalkers or deploy right on front line. Hopefully ghost arcs draw some heavy weapons fire, they can die on objectives delivering their warriors. Might get a few rezzes.
Have to ignore really high toughness models or use weight of fire from warriors. Void reaper should be able to carve up at least one priority target.
Skorpekh might be better as wraiths but I’d prefer the melee over the speed.
Hope for the first turn with the pregame move to swamp the board with double obsec.
Cauthon I feel like you’re low on melee. I’d probably drop a stalker and maybe some warriors to fill out the Skorpekhs and maybe add wraiths too. Four Skorpekhs will be dealt with very easily, I think, except perhaps as a counter-punch.
I’m also curious to see you putting flayers in the arms and reapers on foot. To me it would make sense to do that the other way round.
I think stalkers probably combo well with ghost arks. MWBD happens in the command phase, too soon for anyone in a transport, but the stalker’s buff will work. So actually maybe it’s the second CCB that you should drop instead of a stalker. Not sure.
Wuestenfux I like that list. I’m not sure about givi the Veil to the CCB though. The rules on being “wholly within” range are restrictive and I think it’s easier with a smaller model. And I much prefer the voltaic staff on a CCB. The Veil is awesome but I’d probably give it to a random Cryptek instead.
Also, based on the earlier discussion, I think heavy destroyers should probably always have the Gaus Destructors. The Enmitic thing gives you more of what your troops already do.
Oh and the Silent King should be in a supreme command detachment, not a SH auxiliary. Keep your 3CPs.
Wuestenfux I like that list. I’m not sure about givi the Veil to the CCB though. The rules on being “wholly within” range are restrictive and I think it’s easier with a smaller model. And I much prefer the voltaic staff on a CCB. The Veil is awesome but I’d probably give it to a random Cryptek instead.
Also, based on the earlier discussion, I think heavy destroyers should probably always have the Gaus Destructors. The Enmitic thing gives you more of what your troops already do.
Oh and the Silent King should be in a supreme command detachment, not a SH auxiliary. Keep your 3CPs.
Thanks for the insight.
Indeed, CCB is not the ideal model for VoD.
I'd probably give it to the Technomancer.
But this guy is rather precious and I hope to keep him save after redeployment.
LDHs have now all gauss weapons - seems reasonable.
Revised list with 15 CP:
Spoiler:
New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [102 PL, 15CP, 2,000pts]
Going back to the double C'tan discussion for a moment, I am trying to figure out what to do with the points besides those two point sinks (VD and Nightbringer in my case).
Here is the list I am thinking about as an all-comers, and I would love any feedback there, but specifically I am worried about two really heavy point investments if they can deal with C'tans. My thought is that there are some armies that might be able to sufficiently deal with one, but will struggle with the second. Still, what are the best ways to protect them a little further? I have a spyder in my list for the gloom prism as one option, but I would love to hear more. Also this list would be 2x Eternal Expansionists.
Spoiler:
HQ Catacomb Command Barge [9 PL, 180pts]
Selections: Gauss Cannon, Relic: Orb of Eternity, Resurrection Orb, Staff of Light, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Thrall of the Silent King
Troops
20x Necron Warrior (Gauss Flayer) [260pts]
Elites
C'tan Shard of the Void Dragon [18 PL, 350pts]
Selections: Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor
Canoptek Spider: Gloom Prism, Two Particle Beamers [75]
I think you'd do better with a Veil of Darkness to move the foot warriors up into shooting range instantly. I'd also change them to Reapers, since they'd be getting warped straight into business range.
With no Technomancer giving +1 to hit, I might turn the Canoptek Doomstalker into an Annihilation Barge or another Ghost Ark. d6 attacks that hit on 4's can disappoint you (oh great, they are in a fething forest).
The gussied up Canoptek spyder is *really really close* to being that 90 point forge world monster. If possible, I'd see if I could get the points, it comes with the same guns and gloom prism you've bought that thing, but it burrows and is generally fiercer.
Basically the unifying theme of my commentary is to be faster, minimize time spent not merking enemy units.
teamtigerstripe wrote: Going back to the double C'tan discussion for a moment, I am trying to figure out what to do with the points besides those two point sinks (VD and Nightbringer in my case).
Here is the list I am thinking about as an all-comers, and I would love any feedback there, but specifically I am worried about two really heavy point investments if they can deal with C'tans. My thought is that there are some armies that might be able to sufficiently deal with one, but will struggle with the second. Still, what are the best ways to protect them a little further? I have a spyder in my list for the gloom prism as one option, but I would love to hear more. Also this list would be 2x Eternal Expansionists.
Spoiler:
HQ Catacomb Command Barge [9 PL, 180pts]
Selections: Gauss Cannon, Relic: Orb of Eternity, Resurrection Orb, Staff of Light, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Thrall of the Silent King
Troops
20x Necron Warrior (Gauss Flayer) [260pts]
Elites
C'tan Shard of the Void Dragon [18 PL, 350pts]
Selections: Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor
Canoptek Spider: Gloom Prism, Two Particle Beamers [75]
Elites
C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer [19 PL, 370pts]
Selections: Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor
2x Skorpekh Destroyer (Reap-Blade) [70pts]
4x Skorpekh Destroyer (Thresher) [140pts]
Fast Attack
3x Canoptek Scarab Swarm [45pts]
Dedicated Transport
Ghost Ark [8 PL, 145pts]
If you’re taking two c’tan then you need cheap board coverage to compensate for your two big investments. I think the two vehicles in your list are going to have very low impact. Single doomstalkers arnt worth the points IMO. Hitting on 4’s and super swingy after that, can’t be counted on to do anything. The ghost arc seems pretty random. You need more bodies not less. It’s getting in the way of that.
I would drop the ghost arc for a max unit of scarabs, drop the doomstalker for a max unit of scarabs. Drop the 3 scarabs and spyder and max out the second unit of warriors. If you want to keep the spyder then use the points from three scarabs and swap out for cryptothralls. They’re infantry so their more helpful for secondaries.
teamtigerstripe wrote: Going back to the double C'tan discussion for a moment, I am trying to figure out what to do with the points besides those two point sinks (VD and Nightbringer in my case).
Here is the list I am thinking about as an all-comers, and I would love any feedback there, but specifically I am worried about two really heavy point investments if they can deal with C'tans. My thought is that there are some armies that might be able to sufficiently deal with one, but will struggle with the second. Still, what are the best ways to protect them a little further? I have a spyder in my list for the gloom prism as one option, but I would love to hear more. Also this list would be 2x Eternal Expansionists.
Spoiler:
HQ Catacomb Command Barge [9 PL, 180pts]
Selections: Gauss Cannon, Relic: Orb of Eternity, Resurrection Orb, Staff of Light, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Thrall of the Silent King
Troops
20x Necron Warrior (Gauss Flayer) [260pts]
Elites
C'tan Shard of the Void Dragon [18 PL, 350pts]
Selections: Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor
Canoptek Spider: Gloom Prism, Two Particle Beamers [75]
Elites
C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer [19 PL, 370pts]
Selections: Power of the C'tan: Antimatter Meteor
2x Skorpekh Destroyer (Reap-Blade) [70pts]
4x Skorpekh Destroyer (Thresher) [140pts]
Fast Attack
3x Canoptek Scarab Swarm [45pts]
Dedicated Transport
Ghost Ark [8 PL, 145pts]
If you’re taking two c’tan then you need cheap board coverage to compensate for your two big investments. I think the two vehicles in your list are going to have very low impact. Single doomstalkers arnt worth the points IMO. Hitting on 4’s and super swingy after that, can’t be counted on to do anything. The ghost arc seems pretty random. You need more bodies not less. It’s getting in the way of that.
I would drop the ghost arc for a max unit of scarabs, drop the doomstalker for a max unit of scarabs. Drop the 3 scarabs and spyder and max out the second unit of warriors. If you want to keep the spyder then use the points from three scarabs and swap out for cryptothralls. They’re infantry so their more helpful for secondaries.
I think I mostly agree with this. I don't know if board coverage is what you need to prioritise (though it certainly makes sense) but you definitely need to do something. Other than the C'tan, this list looks to me like kind of a random collection of stuff, rather than anything in particular.
If you're going for eternal expansionists then to me it makes sense to flood the board with either warrior bodies or threats like wraiths and skorpekh destroyers. Either option would take the heat off the C'tan.
I see the logic behind things like the spyder with the gloom prism, but I don't really think it'll work. An enemy with lots of psykers probably won't struggle that much to kill it. Someone without them won't care much about it. And anyway, a single deny is hardly a reliable psychic defence. I'd sooner use those points for more stuff to threaten the enemy.
The logic behind the double c'tan list I wrote was to spam mortal wounds. That's what the c'tan themselves do after all, so I think it makes sense to go a bit deeper into that stuff. That's why I took Imotekh, the voltaic staff for malevolent arcing and why I'd consider things like plasmancers and a psychomancer with atavindicator (a targeted smite) to go with them. You lose command protocols for souping but they aren't that big a deal - especially when you're taking >700pts of C'tan who don't get them.
I am also looking at an eternal expansionist list. This is themed around maximum aggression, basically. Throw too many threats at the enemy for all of them to be dealt with... hopefully.
Overlord
Res orb
Voltaic Staff
Enduring Will
Chronomancer
Veil of Darkness
Chronomancer
5 Immortals (Gauss)
20 Warriors (Reapers)
20 Warriors (Reapers)
6 Skorpekh Destroyers
6 Skorpekh Destroyers
Plasmacyte
C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer
5 Wraiths
5 Triarch Praetorians or 5 Deathmarks and 2 Cryptothralls
Not too sure about this last choice. The Praetorians give me another threat that can follow up behind my main guys. They're reasonably cheap so it wouldn't be a huge loss for them to do actions like deploying scramblers. The deathmarks give me a deep strike option and both they and the cryptothralls can do actions. I think the C'tan, deathmarks and malevolent arcing could combine to make life a bit awkward for support characters but I'm not sure it'd do all that much good.
Thanks for the super helpful thoughts.
I am going to look at cutting the ghost ark/doomstalker first to free up some points and get a VoD for warping right into position, but are immortals worthwhile in a list like this in addition to the scarabs and more warriors that you have recommended?
teamtigerstripe wrote: Thanks for the super helpful thoughts.
I am going to look at cutting the ghost ark/doomstalker first to free up some points and get a VoD for warping right into position, but are immortals worthwhile in a list like this in addition to the scarabs and more warriors that you have recommended?
Immortals are fundamentally quite good I think. They're a cheap unit that can sit on objectives and do actions, but which actually has a respectable amount of firepower for their cost. I've put some in my list for this reason, and to fill a troop slot.
For your double patrol list I don't know if they'd be the best option in that role. You don't need more troops. There are various alternative units that can do the action monkey role somewhat better. For example they might be faster (praetorians), cheaper (cryptothralls), be able to deep strike (deathmarks/flayed ones) or have more firepower (LHDs).
I do like the idea of a Sautekh patrol if going for this double patrol option. Your 20 guys with flayers would be way better if they could rapid fire at 18". Imotekh is great for dropping his mortal wound bomb, which combos nicely with your c'tan throwing mortal wounds around too. Imotekh also brings 2CPs if he's your warlord, and has a good trait for regenerating CPs too. So that's what I'd do if playing double c'tan.
I'd also look at your relic choice. Your CCB's relic orb is nice but the problem is it leaves you with just a staff of light, and that's a very weak weapon for a nearly 200 point unit. The voltaic staff is far more powerful and can also use malevolent arcing to splash a few mortal wounds around. I'd definitely recommend having some source of tesla for malevolent arcing in any necron list, since blobbing up with characters all near one big unit is pretty common.
Here's a version of how that list could look
Sautekh Patrol
Imotekh the Stormlord (Warlord)
20 Warriors (Flayers)
C'tan Shard of the Void Dragon
Eternal Expansionist Patrol
Overlord
Voltaic Staff
Chronomancer
Veil of Darkness
2 Cryptothralls
20 Warriors (Reapers)
6 Skorpekh Destroyers
Plasmacyte
C'tan shard of the Nightbringer
5 Wraiths
The idea is that the 20 warriors with reapers will often get moved by the veil, whereas the Sautekh flayer ones will just walk around using their 18" rapid fire. Midfield is contested by two C'tan, the wraiths and skorpekh's.
p5freak wrote: You dont get command protocols with different dynasties.
Right, I should have mentioned that. I don’t really care about losing them. They don’t do all that much anyway. They matter even less if you’re running two C’tan, since they don’t ever benefit from them. That’s 720 points worth of this 2k list that doesn’t miss protocols at all.
I’m doing this to get Imotekh because I want the CPs back from taking extra detachments. He actually combos quite nicely with C’tan thanks to chucking mortal wounds around and I like that unit of warriors with 18” rapid fire.
The rest of the list can be eternal expansionist. I don’t think Sautekh is really good and units like the wraiths and destroyers clearly benefit far more from being eternal expansionists. I think it could work quite well as more of a gunline, with a lot of dakka warriors or immortals and some doomstalkers. Those gain a lot from the Sautekh +1 to hit strat. I’m not sure I’d run that with two C’tan though.
p5freak wrote: You dont get command protocols with different dynasties.
Right, I should have mentioned that. I don’t really care about losing them. They don’t do all that much anyway. They matter even less if you’re running two C’tan, since they don’t ever benefit from them. That’s 720 points worth of this 2k list that doesn’t miss protocols at all.
I agree. Command protocols didnt do much for me either. Most of the time i have the wrong protocol active.
p5freak wrote: You dont get command protocols with different dynasties.
Right, I should have mentioned that. I don’t really care about losing them. They don’t do all that much anyway. They matter even less if you’re running two C’tan, since they don’t ever benefit from them. That’s 720 points worth of this 2k list that doesn’t miss protocols at all.
I agree. Command protocols didnt do much for me either. Most of the time i have the wrong protocol active.
It's a shame about this. Overall I find the detachment abilities available to necrons are pretty insiginficant. The dynasties are quite weak, as are the warlord traits. There aren't many relics, most aren't great and 100% of lists will have the Veil. Command protocols could have been a really interesting signature ability but they end up feeling like a pretty random benefit after the first couple of turns. It's a hassle to get characters near enough to use them anyway.
Maybe it's a good thing that the list includes so many ways to basically ignore most of this. For example there are special character dynastic agent overlords that you can take in soup lists, to buff everyone.
p5freak wrote: You dont get command protocols with different dynasties.
Right, I should have mentioned that. I don’t really care about losing them. They don’t do all that much anyway. They matter even less if you’re running two C’tan, since they don’t ever benefit from them. That’s 720 points worth of this 2k list that doesn’t miss protocols at all.
I agree. Command protocols didnt do much for me either. Most of the time i have the wrong protocol active.
Here the TSK comes in handy if you can afford to field him.
p5freak wrote: You dont get command protocols with different dynasties.
Right, I should have mentioned that. I don’t really care about losing them. They don’t do all that much anyway. They matter even less if you’re running two C’tan, since they don’t ever benefit from them. That’s 720 points worth of this 2k list that doesn’t miss protocols at all.
I agree. Command protocols didnt do much for me either. Most of the time i have the wrong protocol active.
It's a shame about this. Overall I find the detachment abilities available to necrons are pretty insiginficant. The dynasties are quite weak, as are the warlord traits. There aren't many relics, most aren't great and 100% of lists will have the Veil. Command protocols could have been a really interesting signature ability but they end up feeling like a pretty random benefit after the first couple of turns. It's a hassle to get characters near enough to use them anyway.
Maybe it's a good thing that the list includes so many ways to basically ignore most of this. For example there are special character dynastic agent overlords that you can take in soup lists, to buff everyone.
This is basically why I'm certain that once every other faction has a codex, Necrons will be comfortably bottom tier. Every other army book/supplement released in 9th so far is better
It's a shame about this. Overall I find the detachment abilities available to necrons are pretty insiginficant. The dynasties are quite weak, as are the warlord traits. There aren't many relics, most aren't great and 100% of lists will have the Veil. Command protocols could have been a really interesting signature ability but they end up feeling like a pretty random benefit after the first couple of turns. It's a hassle to get characters near enough to use them anyway.
Agreed. I feel like the only warlord traits worth using are thrall of the silent king and enduring. Same with relics, the veil and voltaic staff are probably the best.
Here the TSK comes in handy if you can afford to field him.
I could, but i dont want to. Those primarchs dont belong in a small skirmish fight, thats what a 40k game is. You need to build your list around them, which is quite limiting.
p5freak wrote: You dont get command protocols with different dynasties.
Right, I should have mentioned that. I don’t really care about losing them. They don’t do all that much anyway. They matter even less if you’re running two C’tan, since they don’t ever benefit from them. That’s 720 points worth of this 2k list that doesn’t miss protocols at all.
I agree. Command protocols didnt do much for me either. Most of the time i have the wrong protocol active.
It's a shame about this. Overall I find the detachment abilities available to necrons are pretty insiginficant. The dynasties are quite weak, as are the warlord traits. There aren't many relics, most aren't great and 100% of lists will have the Veil. Command protocols could have been a really interesting signature ability but they end up feeling like a pretty random benefit after the first couple of turns. It's a hassle to get characters near enough to use them anyway.
Maybe it's a good thing that the list includes so many ways to basically ignore most of this. For example there are special character dynastic agent overlords that you can take in soup lists, to buff everyone.
This is basically why I'm certain that once every other faction has a codex, Necrons will be comfortably bottom tier. Every other army book/supplement released in 9th so far is better
We'll see if CA brings us any points drops, the dakka destroyers especially are in desperate need of it. Tbh though I think theres still a lot of exploring to be done in this codex.
I dont know if you guys saw but a necrons list placed 2nd in a gt recently which was purely mephrit vehicles. 3x DDA, 3x annihilation barges 2x CCB and some other things I can't quite remember. You get -1AP on tesla naturally then, plus ignoring cover and an extra point of AP on 6s to wound in the relevant protocol.
It makes taking purge the vermin real easy as you can blow up anything that's on your side of the table. People have been saying how good Dark angles are with permanent transhuman, we've got it too!
The other thing is, in Szarekhan, their relic let's units within 9" be affected by both directives of the turns protocol. Pare this with thrall of the SKWL trait and a CCB to have a massive 12" aura. Theil Szarekhan WL trait also let's you pick 1 protocol over 2 turns too, so its not just locked to the SK. You can pop that on a chronomancer for example. A bunch of warriors that get the benefit of light cover, can over watch on a 5+ as well as ignore mortals on a 5+ thanks to the dynasty trait, with another 5++ on top of that over 2 turns has been completely un-explored imo!
The point I'm trying to make is that I certainly think it's too early to say crons will be bottom tier. We just haven't been able to keep adapting at the same pace as all the new releases
The point I'm trying to make is that I certainly think it's too early to say crons will be bottom tier. We just haven't been able to keep adapting at the same pace as all the new releases
Bottom tier?
I wouldn't be too fast with such a statement.
I played Necrons in tourneys rather successful in the 6th and 7th ed.
Today, playing 40k is even easier. You just need to hold back- and midfield.
Yeah I don’t think Necrons will be bottom tier. They’re fundamentally pretty good at 9th edition, since they can put tough units on objectives and keep them there.
I think there’s more potential to unlock in the book. There’s some obviously strong stuff like eternal expansionists wraiths, Sautekh destroyers and reaper warriors, but also a lot of tricks. I’m really interested in units like the psychomancer, deathmarks and deceiver that can muck around with the board.
I think the points values are roughly right. Lokhust destroyers are an exception and the destroyer lords probably cost a bit too much but most other stuff is ok. Unfortunately the problematic stuff is stuff that’s free, like the relics and warlord traits. Fixing those would require rewriting text rather than changing points costs, and GW seems a lot more reluctant to do that.
I love the idea of the Mephrit annihilation barges. That’s a great example of how a seemingly rubbish unit can be made to work.
I've long theorized that Necrons are going to round out to low-mid tiers at the end of 9th: not bottom tier, but really not that competitive overall. Power creep is a heck of a drug...
I do think they have enough strong advantages to leverage that they could make some progress, and given the attention given to the last edition's main faction(Death Guard, who were bad in much the same way for awhile but are now top-tier), I hold out hope for Necrons ending up even better in the end.
Although I do wish such balancing was done *during* the initial new big release.
How are people finding the plasmancer? I’m tempted to make an offball 1000 point list with two plasmancer and one (cosmic tyrant) transcendent c’tan... pump out some mortal wounds
I think plasmancers are my least favourite crypteks. It’s they do mortal wounds, but not at all targeted. The orb thing is interesting, with the option of using it for area denial as well as damage.
I’d be interested to see how you’d get on with three of them. They’d sort of erode enemy units and they might accomplish something by going close to enemy characters - so long as they stayed more than 3” away of course.
I mostly prefer the psychomancer with atavindicator for mortal wounds. He gets to allocate them.
The point I'm trying to make is that I certainly think it's too early to say crons will be bottom tier. We just haven't been able to keep adapting at the same pace as all the new releases
Bottom tier?
I wouldn't be too fast with such a statement.
I played Necrons in tourneys rather successful in the 6th and 7th ed.
Today, playing 40k is even easier. You just need to hold back- and midfield.
To me even more bold, I would bet money on Necrons being among the bottom 5 ranked factions in two years time when everyone has a codex. Which isn't to say that it's currently bad, it's not. But so far every other one has been a powerhouse so we're seeing a trend and I don't think we are durable enough to handle such a boost in killing ability across the board.
The point I'm trying to make is that I certainly think it's too early to say crons will be bottom tier. We just haven't been able to keep adapting at the same pace as all the new releases
Bottom tier?
I wouldn't be too fast with such a statement.
I played Necrons in tourneys rather successful in the 6th and 7th ed.
Today, playing 40k is even easier. You just need to hold back- and midfield.
To me even more bold, I would bet money on Necrons being among the bottom 5 ranked factions in two years time when everyone has a codex. Which isn't to say that it's currently bad, it's not. But so far every other one has been a powerhouse so we're seeing a trend and I don't think we are durable enough to handle such a boost in killing ability across the board.
Power creep is a phenomenon we can observe in each edition.
Cynista wrote: Yes it is. And I'm saying that already in this edition, Necrons appear to be below the power average.
Necrons are powerful enough to cope with power creeping.
The game is about objectives and not killing enemy units in the first place and here Necrons can excel.
Guys, friend of mine is starting Necrons and bought a box of Praetorians/Lychguards. He's pretty new to the game and basically has 3 Indomitus, a CCB, and a Void Dragon. Should he build the Praetorians or the Lychguard?
Vector Strike wrote: Guys, friend of mine is starting Necrons and bought a box of Praetorians/Lychguards. He's pretty new to the game and basically has 3 Indomitus, a CCB, and a Void Dragon. Should he build the Praetorians or the Lychguard?
Its a pretty good start.
Most guys and girls will say Lychguard, since 10 Lychguard veiled at the battlefield via VoD are a decent threat and they are core.
Others will tell you that Praetorians are a decent unit in combination with The Silent King.
Vector Strike wrote: Guys, friend of mine is starting Necrons and bought a box of Praetorians/Lychguards. He's pretty new to the game and basically has 3 Indomitus, a CCB, and a Void Dragon. Should he build the Praetorians or the Lychguard?
In a vacuum, I'd say Sword & Shield Lychguard are probably the strongest option right now for 9th. Scytheguard hit hard, but tend to die immediately afterwards. Staff Praetorians are interesting as a bully unit, but maybe not quite strong enough.
That said, any of the three options listed above are valid and interesting units right now. With what he has right now, he has a great core to try out different builds. I'd suggest building 40 of the Warriors with reapers.
I find it hard to believe this style of list will fade much no matter what books come out or how much power creep there is. Good luck out there.
That was an interesting report, thanks. Interesting to see the necrons' early dominance getting the primary points, even though they didn't do brilliantly in the actual fighting.
I'm also facing the Lychguard/Praetorian quandry. I think I'm going to build my five as Praetorians as a bully unit/action monkey squad. They're fast infantry that can do good things against enemy objective holders but aren't strong or durable enough to act as a hammer.
If I had ten of them I think I'd make them into Lychguard with shields, and I'd probably buy a night scythe to send them in with the stratagem (whose name I forget). But you kind of need a bigger squad of those guys to make them worthwhile, in my opinion.
Vector Strike wrote: Guys, friend of mine is starting Necrons and bought a box of Praetorians/Lychguards. He's pretty new to the game and basically has 3 Indomitus, a CCB, and a Void Dragon. Should he build the Praetorians or the Lychguard?
In a vacuum, I'd say Sword & Shield Lychguard are probably the strongest option right now for 9th. Scytheguard hit hard, but tend to die immediately afterwards. Staff Praetorians are interesting as a bully unit, but maybe not quite strong enough.
That said, any of the three options listed above are valid and interesting units right now. With what he has right now, he has a great core to try out different builds. I'd suggest building 40 of the Warriors with reapers.
wuestenfux wrote:
Vector Strike wrote: Guys, friend of mine is starting Necrons and bought a box of Praetorians/Lychguards. He's pretty new to the game and basically has 3 Indomitus, a CCB, and a Void Dragon. Should he build the Praetorians or the Lychguard?
Its a pretty good start.
Most guys and girls will say Lychguard, since 10 Lychguard veiled at the battlefield via VoD are a decent threat and they are core.
Others will tell you that Praetorians are a decent unit in combination with The Silent King.
Vector Strike wrote: Guys, friend of mine is starting Necrons and bought a box of Praetorians/Lychguards. He's pretty new to the game and basically has 3 Indomitus, a CCB, and a Void Dragon. Should he build the Praetorians or the Lychguard?
In a vacuum, I'd say Sword & Shield Lychguard are probably the strongest option right now for 9th. Scytheguard hit hard, but tend to die immediately afterwards. Staff Praetorians are interesting as a bully unit, but maybe not quite strong enough.
I also am wondering about this. I am looking for a good midfield unit to dish out damage, but able to withstand some attacks directed back at them. I know Lychguard v. Wraiths are not apples to apples, but I am trying to figure out which unit pairs better with Skorpekh Destroyers as midfield bullies/tarpits for incoming fire. What would be the benefits of either choice here?
Vector Strike wrote: Guys, friend of mine is starting Necrons and bought a box of Praetorians/Lychguards. He's pretty new to the game and basically has 3 Indomitus, a CCB, and a Void Dragon. Should he build the Praetorians or the Lychguard?
In a vacuum, I'd say Sword & Shield Lychguard are probably the strongest option right now for 9th. Scytheguard hit hard, but tend to die immediately afterwards. Staff Praetorians are interesting as a bully unit, but maybe not quite strong enough.
I also am wondering about this. I am looking for a good midfield unit to dish out damage, but able to withstand some attacks directed back at them. I know Lychguard v. Wraiths are not apples to apples, but I am trying to figure out which unit pairs better with Skorpekh Destroyers as midfield bullies/tarpits for incoming fire. What would be the benefits of either choice here?
Wraiths are the most mobile, Lychguard the least. Then there's the keyword, canoptek, destroyer cult or core, value depends on list. Reanimation protocols is most valueable on Lychguard and they also have the bodyguard rule. Weakness to Damage 2 and D6 is a consideration if you want to skew. If you veil the pre-game move dynastic code is less valueable.
I find it hard to believe this style of list will fade much no matter what books come out or how much power creep there is. Good luck out there.
That was an interesting report, thanks. Interesting to see the necrons' early dominance getting the primary points, even though they didn't do brilliantly in the actual fighting.
I'm also facing the Lychguard/Praetorian quandry. I think I'm going to build my five as Praetorians as a bully unit/action monkey squad. They're fast infantry that can do good things against enemy objective holders but aren't strong or durable enough to act as a hammer.
If I had ten of them I think I'd make them into Lychguard with shields, and I'd probably buy a night scythe to send them in with the stratagem (whose name I forget). But you kind of need a bigger squad of those guys to make them worthwhile, in my opinion.
After reading through the rules for reinforcements and the stratagem [Prismatic Dimensional Breach] a few times, I think the best bet would be to put the Lychguard in the Scythe directly or keep them in reserves on their own. If you go first the Night Scythe has to survive one round of shooting before deploying Turn 2, if you go second it has to survive two turns. If the Night Scythe dies then your reinforcements come in on the board edge anyway. If they're embarked on the transport then if the Night Scythe dies turn two (use Chronomancer to give it a 5+ invul, run Szarekhan to give a 5+ FNP, hopefully keep it alive turn one), then your units will have to do an emergency landing but still be deployed within the same region they'd be if they disembarked anyway.
That said, I do see major advantages to the stratagem; it triggers in the reinforcement phase, so it's after you're Night Scythe has made two moves and that gives you more control where they deploy. And it lets you run a full squad of 20 warriors with Flayers and also deploy the 10 Lychguard from reinforcements.
Wraiths are the most mobile, Lychguard the least. Then there's the keyword, canoptek, destroyer cult or core, value depends on list. Reanimation protocols is most valueable on Lychguard and they also have the bodyguard rule. Weakness to Damage 2 and D6 is a consideration if you want to skew. If you veil the pre-game move dynastic code is less valueable.
Have you considered Cronomancer + Scarabs?
I was thinking of a small unit of scarabs + Chronomancer to shift its support to another unit when the scarabs die as a frontline tarpit, hopefully slowing opponents from getting good forward positioning if possible. This is why I was thinking Lychguard might not be too slow with pregame move followed by scarabs slowing people down. VoD would hopefully go on a unit of warriors with reapers as a surprise shotgun to any problem units that are hard to reach.
Vector Strike wrote: Guys, friend of mine is starting Necrons and bought a box of Praetorians/Lychguards. He's pretty new to the game and basically has 3 Indomitus, a CCB, and a Void Dragon. Should he build the Praetorians or the Lychguard?
In a vacuum, I'd say Sword & Shield Lychguard are probably the strongest option right now for 9th. Scytheguard hit hard, but tend to die immediately afterwards. Staff Praetorians are interesting as a bully unit, but maybe not quite strong enough.
I also am wondering about this. I am looking for a good midfield unit to dish out damage, but able to withstand some attacks directed back at them. I know Lychguard v. Wraiths are not apples to apples, but I am trying to figure out which unit pairs better with Skorpekh Destroyers as midfield bullies/tarpits for incoming fire. What would be the benefits of either choice here?
I cannot recommend sword and shield Lychguard highly enough. 9th edition is all about tough brawler units that can take and hold the midfield, and Lychguard are designed to do exactly that. A unit of 10 has been my most consistent performer since the codex dropped.
I'm yet to encounter a unit that they aren't happy to charge into; hordes, elite infantry, vehicles, Mortarion, they'll have a go at anything. There are loads of buffs available to them- taking them up to 6 attacks each at strength 8, AP -4 hitting on 2's rerolled if you want to go all the way, but they rarely need that much. Plenty of defensive buffs work great on them too, and they're an ideal accompaniment to the Silent King. Then there's Prismatic Dimensional Breach shenanigans if you want to go crazy.
They also work perfectly in either of the most commonly used dynasties. Novokh is great for the extra attack strat and +1 to charge (making a charge from veiling realistic), but Eternal Expansionists is even better; putting them on a midboard objective turn 1 with obsec.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I cannot recommend sword and shield Lychguard highly enough. 9th edition is all about tough brawler units that can take and hold the midfield, and Lychguard are designed to do exactly that. A unit of 10 has been my most consistent performer since the codex dropped.
I'm yet to encounter a unit that they aren't happy to charge into; hordes, elite infantry, vehicles, Mortarion, they'll have a go at anything. There are loads of buffs available to them- taking them up to 6 attacks each at strength 8, AP -4 hitting on 2's rerolled if you want to go all the way, but they rarely need that much. Plenty of defensive buffs work great on them too, and they're an ideal accompaniment to the Silent King. Then there's Prismatic Dimensional Breach shenanigans if you want to go crazy.
They also work perfectly in either of the most commonly used dynasties. Novokh is great for the extra attack strat and +1 to charge (making a charge from veiling realistic), but Eternal Expansionists is even better; putting them on a midboard objective turn 1 with obsec.
Bladeguard Veterans and Canoptek Wraiths should beat them easily. They go about even with a Knight if you ignore shooting and buffs. Do you prefer Lychguard to Wraiths because you face a lot of D6 and flat 3 damage or is it Lychguard's resilience to AP- and AP-1? It's funny how in the edition where durability was secondary to offence shields cost more than scythes and provided less benefit than the edition where durability is king.
Getting to 6 attacks seems hard, if you pregame move and add 1 to their Movement with Relentless March Anrakyr will be 7" behind turn 1.
I'm also a bit sceptical of Lychguard, at least on paper. A two-wound profile isn't too attractive at the moment, with things like plasmaceptors around. They actually pay more points per wound than wraiths and skorpekhs but lose them at least as fast.
That said, lots of people do vouch for them. They're a unit that can take a charge from most things and still hit back, which is valuable. Eternal expansionist ones are obviously very interesting - though that also massively buffs their competitors.
vict0988 wrote: Bladeguard Veterans and Canoptek Wraiths should beat them easily. They go about even with a Knight if you ignore shooting and buffs. Do you prefer Lychguard to Wraiths because you face a lot of D6 and flat 3 damage or is it Lychguard's resilience to AP- and AP-1? It's funny how in the edition where durability was secondary to offence shields cost more than scythes and provided less benefit than the edition where durability is king.
Getting to 6 attacks seems hard, if you pregame move and add 1 to their Movement with Relentless March Anrakyr will be 7" behind turn 1.
6 Attacks is only possible with Anrakyr and Novokh so that wouldn't be an issue. +1 attack and MWBD is usual fine on them though, and doesn't require jumping through too many hoops.
The extra point of armour, and actually benefiting from RP makes a big difference in durability between Wraith and Lychguard in my experience. The amount of buffs available to Lychguard also means they can be a legitimate threat, whereas I've learnt not to rely on Wraith to fight anything. Despite the similarity in stats I think the two units perform best in different roles: Lychguard hold central objectives and brawl with whatever comes their way - Wraith go on the flank and use their speed to pick on enemy objective holders/ shooty units.
Lychguard hold central objectives and brawl with whatever comes their way - Wraith go on the flank and use their speed to pick on enemy objective holders/ shooty units.
This is a way to use the units. They are quite costly if you want them in a single army.
Instead of Lychguard, Skorpekh units are an alternative that I wouldn't rule out.
Lychguard hold central objectives and brawl with whatever comes their way - Wraith go on the flank and use their speed to pick on enemy objective holders/ shooty units.
This is a way to use the units. They are quite costly if you want them in a single army.
Instead of Lychguard, Skorpekh units are an alternative that I wouldn't rule out.
1 unit of skorpekh are almost an auto include for me, their -1 to wound strat is super powerful. 5++ invuln and rerolling charges, now you’re really on to something.
5 or 6. If you want just 3 I’d go with wraiths instead. If you only have 3 skorpekh then that strat starts to be of questionable value. I like 6 for the extra big swings. (It’s not like you’re worried about blast...that’s probably going into your warriors if not then they can have as many shots as they want, can they wound you though)
They do have a substantial footprint but there should be plenty of los blocking terrain on the table. If there isn’t a place to completely hide about half your army in deployment then you’re probably doing terrain wrong.
Yeah more i think about it the less i think i care about blast with skorpekhs. The only thing thats really gonna punish them is the plasma bs that marines use, which like you said should be hitting warrior blobs not skorpekhs.
Everything else is D6 shots (so likely to get 3 anyway) or only does 2D, so not a very optimal target.
Kannonwagons are the biggest thing i can think of that blasts skorpekhs reliably, but they dont care about the blast...2D6 shots means oh no if i roll snakeeyes i get 1 more shot... but i dont have to worry bout that unless im letting my friend borrow my orks because i am the only ork player that even bothers with kannonwagons (despite them being pretty dang good atm)
Skorpekh's are a more a counter-strike unit, and I'd take a unit of 5.
I'd field them behind a Warrior blob or some other unit hoofing towards the center.
Call me crazy but would Novokh gauss Immortal spam be actually a really fearsome army in the current meta? 2 melee attacks, decent gun, T5, reanimation and most lists these days are designed to kill 2 wound marines so you deny efficiency. Rad wreathed would also be good. Thinking 80 Immortals minimum with character support.
Cynista wrote: Call me crazy but would Novokh gauss Immortal spam be actually a really fearsome army in the current meta? 2 melee attacks, decent gun, T5, reanimation and most lists these days are designed to kill 2 wound marines so you deny efficiency. Rad wreathed would also be good. Thinking 80 Immortals minimum with character support.
Not that I'd ever actually do it
I feel like after 30 Immortals their value dramatically drops off. At some point the investment is coming at the expense of other tools which help you win games. I feel like more than 40 Warriors EVER is excessive, and more than 30 Immortals is likewise.
I mean, it could work, and it might be cheeky to run with Szeras (T6 Immortals can indeed be surprisingly chunky when it happens).
Cynista wrote: Call me crazy but would Novokh gauss Immortal spam be actually a really fearsome army in the current meta? 2 melee attacks, decent gun, T5, reanimation and most lists these days are designed to kill 2 wound marines so you deny efficiency. Rad wreathed would also be good. Thinking 80 Immortals minimum with character support.
Not that I'd ever actually do it
I'd add some variety and take 2x10 Immortals and 1x20 Warriors with reapers backed up by TSK.
wuestenfux wrote: Skorpekh's are a more a counter-strike unit, and I'd take a unit of 5.
I'd field them behind a Warrior blob or some other unit hoofing towards the center.
In the list I am trying to build up to I already have a 5-6 Skorpekh unit in mind, but I want something that can run down the middle here. I see the obvious value in Lychguard for this role, but would a second unit of Skorpekh be a good middle of table unit for this, or are they too vulnerable relative to Lychguard for running the middle? Really I am just wary about 2 wound expensive units in shooting range of anything that is built to target primaris.
There aren't really a lot of units that you can expect to survive for a long time in the middle of the battlefield. I think it's arguably a job for warriors rather than Lychguard. That said, most enemies will find 10 Lychguard harder to remove than 20 warriors.
A good thing about Lychguard is that they don't need buffs. They come with a 2+/4++.
wuestenfux wrote: Skorpekh's are a more a counter-strike unit, and I'd take a unit of 5.
I'd field them behind a Warrior blob or some other unit hoofing towards the center.
In the list I am trying to build up to I already have a 5-6 Skorpekh unit in mind, but I want something that can run down the middle here. I see the obvious value in Lychguard for this role, but would a second unit of Skorpekh be a good middle of table unit for this, or are they too vulnerable relative to Lychguard for running the middle? Really I am just wary about 2 wound expensive units in shooting range of anything that is built to target primaris.
I wouldn’t recommend two squads of skorpekh. If you use their strat on one unit, your opponent is going to switch to shooting the other..
I would turn that second unit into wraiths or lychguard. Wraiths arnt as well suited to slogging up the middle but you could definitely use 2 small units to race out into objectives and then rely on their invuln saves to survive till your next command phase.
Honestly I think reaper warriors with a unit of scarabs screening can be a fierce mid board presence. A max scarab squad with chronomancer buff can maybe get the job done themselves. 36 wounds 5++ and a good chance to be rezzing bases.
I wouldn’t recommend two squads of skorpekh. If you use their strat on one unit, your opponent is going to switch to shooting the other..
I would turn that second unit into wraiths or lychguard. Wraiths arnt as well suited to slogging up the middle but you could definitely use 2 small units to race out into objectives and then rely on their invuln saves to survive till your next command phase.
Honestly I think reaper warriors with a unit of scarabs screening can be a fierce mid board presence. A max scarab squad with chronomancer buff can maybe get the job done themselves. 36 wounds 5++ and a good chance to be rezzing bases.
That seems to be the consensus here. In this case is 2 or 3 blocks of 20 warriors a more meta choice for controlling territory?
I wouldn’t recommend two squads of skorpekh. If you use their strat on one unit, your opponent is going to switch to shooting the other..
I would turn that second unit into wraiths or lychguard. Wraiths arnt as well suited to slogging up the middle but you could definitely use 2 small units to race out into objectives and then rely on their invuln saves to survive till your next command phase.
Honestly I think reaper warriors with a unit of scarabs screening can be a fierce mid board presence. A max scarab squad with chronomancer buff can maybe get the job done themselves. 36 wounds 5++ and a good chance to be rezzing bases.
That seems to be the consensus here. In this case is 2 or 3 blocks of 20 warriors a more meta choice for controlling territory?
Variety is key to battle the enemy at all threat ranges.
I'd take a mix of Immortals and Warriors with reapers.
FINALLY getting my first game of the new Necrons in later today. Plan is a 2v2 team battles, myself and Deathguard vs a Wolf and Sister combo, 1k pts and separate CP pools per player. Mission;
Spoiler:
While it’s a Crusade Mission, we’re still playing “normal” rules and will pick a regular Secondary per person as well. The Wolf and Sister are the Defenders.
I’m running an Overlord with Voltaic and Orb, Royal Warden with Veil, Technomancer with Cloak, and fifty five Warriors with twenty Reapers.
Warriors and command barges or warriors and scarabs. Honorable mention for the chronomancer.
I see everyone talking about scarabs, but then oddly I see a lot of lists without them in the list. What are the best uses of scarabs, and are they something that belong in just about every list?
Lot of people dont have scarabs in mass and a handful of scarabs dont do much more than be a wall for people to charge instead fo your warriors. A squad of 9 can do damage and takes forever to kill except with stuff 3x their cost. Multiple squads of 9 is just evil.
I've been avoiding spamming them because i kinda feel like a prick doing it lol
Novokh or 6" pregame move + -1T aura makes them melt things T4 or less and can chip away at anything else that the -1T actually works on quite well.
I am not sure if it has come up before but can a destroyed triarchal menhir from the silent king be revived once it is destroyed? Either through living metal, technomancer canoptek cloak or canoptek spyder fabricator claw array?
Can the technomancer and spyder be used on the same model in the same turn? I cant find anything that stops it rules wise.
A triarchal menhir cannot be revived. Technomancer and spyder cannot be used on the same model in the same turn. Both repair models, and each model can only be repaired once per turn. Fabricator claw and canoptek cloak says that.
p5freak wrote: A triarchal menhir cannot be revived. Technomancer and spyder cannot be used on the same model in the same turn. Both repair models, and each model can only be repaired once per turn. Fabricator claw and canoptek cloak says that.
Fair enough but why not? Necrons have all sorts of regeneration and revive mechanics. They are all the same model.
The repair abilities are worded the same but technically they are completely separate abilities. The wording only stops 2 cloaks or 2 claws being used on the same model. Needs an faq methinks.
The repair abilities are worded the same but technically they are completely separate abilities. The wording only stops 2 cloaks or 2 claws being used on the same model. Needs an faq methinks.
Both rules say you can repair a friendly <DYNASTY>model, and that each model can only be repaired once per turn. But feel free to create a thread in YMDC if you think they both work on the same model.
Warriors and command barges or warriors and scarabs. Honorable mention for the chronomancer.
I see everyone talking about scarabs, but then oddly I see a lot of lists without them in the list. What are the best uses of scarabs, and are they something that belong in just about every list?
I can draw you up a scarab list later.
One of the best uses for a max scarab squad is to screen for c’tan’s, mortal wounds hurt extra bad because that’s a whole phase they can take a chunk out of your c’tan. Also, if things go swimmingly the leftover scarabs can charge in before the c’tan. Eliminating another phase that they could be hurting the c’tan (over watch in the charge phase)
Also two max squads going straight up the middle with chronomancer buffs seem pretty dang brutal if you didn’t want to invest heavily in warriors, even then scarabs can screen well for warriors as well.
Warriors and command barges or warriors and scarabs. Honorable mention for the chronomancer.
I see everyone talking about scarabs, but then oddly I see a lot of lists without them in the list. What are the best uses of scarabs, and are they something that belong in just about every list?
Technomancer- canoptek control node fail safe overcharger.
Warriors x 20- reapers
Immortals x 5- gauss
Immortals x 6- gauss
Nightbringer
Skorpekh x 5- plasmacyte
Lychguard x 5
Scarabs x 9
Scarabs x 9
Scarabs x 9
If the stars align... 9 scarabs are putting out 54 attacks at strength 4 and hitting on 3’s 6’s to hit auto wound. 36 wounds with a 5++ rerolling charges at +1. Movement 10’ fly! MVP MVP!!
One squad of scarabs lead nightbringer up a flank, two scarab units with all the buffs go up the middle charging anything. Warriors are a mid game veil target if they can hold out. Skorpekh play peak a boo. Lychguard and immortals do secondaries. Not a ton of units for ccb to MWBD so he might as well be a missile as well to continue the theme.
Matchup defendant
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wrote this the other day as a silver tide challenge to myself.
Novokh???
Ccb- phaeron, thrall of the silent king, voltaic staff, Rez orb, gauss
Ccb- Implacable conqueror, void reaper
Warriors x 20- reapers
Warriors x 20- reapers
Warriors x 20- flayers
Warriors x 20- flayers
Skorpekh x 5- plasmacyte
Cryptothralls
Cryptothralls.
Wraiths x 4
I couldn’t decide between novokh, relentless expansionists or mephrit. I had a warden in there but it was costing me 2 cp one for a patrol and one for his relic. Got dropped for cryptothralls seeing as big squads of warriors don’t want to not shoot because of an action.
If you get gamble on going first you can blanket the board with a pregame move.
Novokh because it gives the army a solid melee threat capacity that isn’t there otherwise. Without screens maybe the warriors should enjoy getting stuck in.
Mephrit would be the conservative pick. Probably solid.
Overlord
3x Chronomancers
1x Techno with control node
3x 10 man Immortals
6 Spiders with guns
24 Scarabs
2 Doom stalkers
in a 200 point list. pretty durable.
I cant believe you invest 240 pts. to give scarabs a 5+ inv. Thats nice, but not worth the points. I once tried 3 spyders with a chronomancer, and i failed every 5+ roll. The spyders died to anti armour fire.
I have tried a scarab/spyder/technomancer control node list. Problem is, the scarabs are faster than the spyders/technomancer. With 6" pre game move the scarabs can charge T1, and if they succeed, they are out of range from the spyders, and dont benefit from the control node. When the spyders charge T2 they will leave the technomancer behind, also out of range from the control node, unless you give the technomancer thrall of the silent king. A technomancer alone is vulnerable to enemy attacks, unless you give him cryptothralls, of the prismatic obfuscatron. So you need to slow down, to keep them together.
Scarabs are great and there is a place for them in any list, but I'm not sure they're worth the investment of dedicated chronomancers.
I'm liking units of 5 at the moment as they allow you to spread out to screen a large area without coherency being an issue. Their main use is as pawns to take midfield objectives turn 1, while my good stuff sets up to counter attack whatever tries to shift them. Less than 5 may not have enough wounds to force the opponent to really commit. Most lists will benefit from 2 units of 5 scarabs.
If you do want to spam them then the Unyielding trait is probably the best way to increase their durability rather than the expense of Chronomancers. Unyielding is also a good trait for spamming warriors. I think an Unyeilding + Healthy Paranoia list that spams Warriors and Scarabs could be effective, if a little dull.
Any ideas how to keep a Silent King in a list vs Drukhari? Seems like 15 dark lance lists popping up will turn just about anything into swiss cheese.
Is he at this point a liability?
iGuy91 wrote: Any ideas how to keep a Silent King in a list vs Drukhari? Seems like 15 dark lance lists popping up will turn just about anything into swiss cheese.
Is he at this point a liability?
Overlord
3x Chronomancers
1x Techno with control node
3x 10 man Immortals
6 Spiders with guns
24 Scarabs
2 Doom stalkers
in a 200 point list. pretty durable.
I cant believe you invest 240 pts. to give scarabs a 5+ inv. Thats nice, but not worth the points. I once tried 3 spyders with a chronomancer, and i failed every 5+ roll. The spyders died to anti armour fire.
I have tried a scarab/spyder/technomancer control node list. Problem is, the scarabs are faster than the spyders/technomancer. With 6" pre game move the scarabs can charge T1, and if they succeed, they are out of range from the spyders, and dont benefit from the control node. When the spyders charge T2 they will leave the technomancer behind, also out of range from the control node, unless you give the technomancer thrall of the silent king. A technomancer alone is vulnerable to enemy attacks, unless you give him cryptothralls, of the prismatic obfuscatron. So you need to slow down, to keep them together.
Yeah ofc techno gets thrall of silent king.
Crono also has a great gun and can jsut start buffing other units when the scarabs die "if they die". 5++ from a 6+ save literally doubles the damage you can take. Auto include IMO. It is a board control list.
Overlord
3x Chronomancers
1x Techno with control node
3x 10 man Immortals
6 Spiders with guns
24 Scarabs
2 Doom stalkers
in a 200 point list. pretty durable.
I cant believe you invest 240 pts. to give scarabs a 5+ inv. Thats nice, but not worth the points. I once tried 3 spyders with a chronomancer, and i failed every 5+ roll. The spyders died to anti armour fire.
I have tried a scarab/spyder/technomancer control node list. Problem is, the scarabs are faster than the spyders/technomancer. With 6" pre game move the scarabs can charge T1, and if they succeed, they are out of range from the spyders, and dont benefit from the control node. When the spyders charge T2 they will leave the technomancer behind, also out of range from the control node, unless you give the technomancer thrall of the silent king. A technomancer alone is vulnerable to enemy attacks, unless you give him cryptothralls, of the prismatic obfuscatron. So you need to slow down, to keep them together.
Yeah ofc techno gets thrall of silent king.
Crono also has a great gun and can jsut start buffing other units when the scarabs die "if they die".
5++ from a 6+ save literally doubles the damage you can take. Auto include IMO. It is a board control list.
Thanks for those list concepts with scarabs, similar question about Technomancers. I love some of their abilities, but I am struggling to think about how to make use of all of them in one list. I would assume the canoptek buffs can be really nice alongside warrior resurrections, is there something else worth considering with them that stands out as a primary use?
teamtigerstripe wrote: Thanks for those list concepts with scarabs, similar question about Technomancers. I love some of their abilities, but I am struggling to think about how to make use of all of them in one list. I would assume the canoptek buffs can be really nice alongside warrior resurrections, is there something else worth considering with them that stands out as a primary use?
In my opinion you should decide which way you want to use the techno. Either as a Rez bot or as a canoptek babysitter. The way to get “the most” out of a technomancer is to have him babysit 3 doomstalkers. With scarabs and maybe a unit of spyders either being counter charge or bullet sponges. Better roll hot with your doom stalkers.... a couple warrior squads and a ccb..
I would be into technos for rezzing but I’ve been having a hard time fitting him in lists. After a ccb or two and a chronomancer or two the technomancer still has to beat out a royal warden.
I’ve been really into double crypteks. No matter what list I write I always seem to have at least two units that want to push up the middle. I think scarabs and warriors both make excellent targets for the chronomancer. 36 wounds with a 5++ is substantial. If they want to get up the board charging for movement is more better with rerolls. I don’t think there’s many units that can take that in one go and scarabs Rez pretty well themselves. That’s crazy durable for 135 points.
Skorpekh on turn two. Because hopefully they moved up wand would like to reroll a charge on turn 2. Another unit I just have in every list..
Ok here’s getting the most out of technomancer.
Ccb- stuff
Technomancer- canopten control, failsafe overcharger
Technomancer- canoptek control
I think I’ve underrated scarabs. I’m adding them to my lists now.
One issue I’m finding is that it’s hard to find the right balance of combat units and stuff capable of actions. Scarabs, wraiths and CCBs aren’t infantry. You don’t really want a blob of 20 warriors spending it’s turn doing an action. I should probably try and fit in some cryptothralls or something, I suppose.
Edit: here's a list I'm looking at. The idea here is to threat saturation, just giving the opponent too many issues to deal with simultaneously. I've taken my Overlord out of his CCB, partly so he can do actions if needed and partly to save points, which has helped make space for the deathmarks. They should be useful for stuff like scrambling.
My Chronomancer will be very busy, which is an issue. I'd be better off with a second one I suppose. Maybe I should be trying to fit in something like a Lychguard squad instead of the second unit of Skorpekhs, as they don't need buffs to the same degree.
The other advantage of Scarabs is that, unless you got your Warriors second-hand, the box comes with them! Warrior-and-Scarab lists are both a) effective, and b) cheap to build. Your 40 warriors already came with 12 Scarab bases!
Mandragola wrote: I think I’ve underrated scarabs. I’m adding them to my lists now.
One issue I’m finding is that it’s hard to find the right balance of combat units and stuff capable of actions. Scarabs, wraiths and CCBs aren’t infantry. You don’t really want a blob of 20 warriors spending it’s turn doing an action. I should probably try and fit in some cryptothralls or something, I suppose.
Edit: here's a list I'm looking at. The idea here is to threat saturation, just giving the opponent too many issues to deal with simultaneously. I've taken my Overlord out of his CCB, partly so he can do actions if needed and partly to save points, which has helped make space for the deathmarks. They should be useful for stuff like scrambling.
My Chronomancer will be very busy, which is an issue. I'd be better off with a second one I suppose. Maybe I should be trying to fit in something like a Lychguard squad instead of the second unit of Skorpekhs, as they don't need buffs to the same degree.
Eternal Expansionist Battalion
Overlord
Res orb
Voltaic Staff
Enduring Will
Chronomancer
Veil of Darkness
5 Immortals (Gauss)
20 Warriors (Reapers)
20 Warriors (Reapers)
6 Skorpekh Destroyers
6 Skorpekh Destroyers
5 Deathmarks
C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer
5 Wraiths
9 Scarab Swarms
I would drop one unit of skorpeks and the death marks for 10 lychguard and a plasmacyte.
If you have two units of skorpekh you can only have 1 exposed to fire at a time otherwise when you use their strat the can shoot the hell out of the other unit.
If 1 squad goes in hot to an objective and one squad hides, what if the first squad survives somehow, who gets the stratt?
Lychguard also have other strats and benefits of being core. Can do actions happily because no ranged.
That’s a good idea, annoyingly! I’ve got twelve skorpekhs and only five Lychguard, but the reasons for the swap are certainly compelling. I’d best get hold of some more of these guys and provide my overlord with a proper retinue.
The five guys I do have are unbuilt and with a couple of pairs of legs missing, after some unsuccessful conversion attempts. Maybe I’ll use some bits of characters to make a squad leader and something like a standard bearer.
I didn’t find the extra points so I didn’t mention it but nobody really takes overlords. Catacomb command barges are the same thing but way better for not many points when you consider the different profiles.
Yeah understood about the CCB. I’ve got one awaiting construction and I’m going to magnetise my Lord so he can either stand on it or on foot.
That said, the extra 50 points it costs is significant. I see my Lord loitering around zapping things with his voltaic staff, not charging into things. He’s just not a particularly scary guy. I don’t think he’ll miss the extra speed and stats all that much, though it’s a shame to lose the gun. It would be nice of course, but might not be essential. And it might be useful to have my Lord as another infantry unit.
I’m contemplating swapping his warlord trait from enduring will to voice of the triarch. Probably not though.
Another factor is the ccb’s hull is huge compared to overlord on foot’ base size. That makes a difference measuring buff ranges. The movement is also significantly better.
I’d take 2 units of 18 warriors if I absolutely couldn’t find the 50 points more organically. (Not your list just in general)
I start lists with a ccb, I decide if I want two, go from there. Overlord is never considered.
Good advice. I guess dropping 4 warriors might be the way to get the extra points, though it feels really wrong. And of course I'd be kicking myself if two would have lived at any point.
One thing I notice about the list is that it has almost no shooting. There's dakka from the warriors but if I meet any kind of hard targets I'll have to handle them in melee. Wonder if that's a problem. To be honest though, the Necron heavy support options don't really seem all that great, so maybe it's fine. I'll be in people's faces very soon, thanks to the pre-game move, so hopefully they won't get to do much shooting either. I can definitely see the argument for adding some LHDs in or something though.
I wouldn't completely write off Overlords. In a lot of games the Overlord will achieve the same job as the CCB for 55pts less. I often find that either choice needs to stay near to my infantry blocks for the buffs, and doesn't want to be in combat. If that's the case then the extra movement and durability isn't needed.
Lack of good Dakka outside of Warriors is an issue with Necrons. Deathguard and Dark Eldar have both made me feel like I need Dakka. The Deathguard terminator blob with buff characters is not something you want to charge into, and being able to shoot down DE transports would help a lot.
The 3" extra range from Mephrit or Healthy Paranoia can make Warriors Dakka a bit more usable. Otherwise we have to look at some less than ideal choices. Doom Scythes seem like they have a lot of shooting for the points. 3 Particle Tomb blades have a lot of shots for 75pts. Anni Barges?
CCBIMO is good for getting voltaic stack into range. Otherwise he is a +55 point overlord with a gauss cannon (not a terrible weapon but not a requirement). Would not recommend putting any of them in CC.
I honestly wouldn't include a noble in any list if it wasn't a requirement to get protocols. Out of the nobles though - I'd take an overlord over a royal warden every-time. The CCB vs overlord comes down to points and relics and roll.
Relic res orb is probably the thing a lord does best IMO - Overlord just does that better cause it is way cheaper on him.
Got to disagree with you. It’s a lot more than an extra gun. You wouldn’t put a strength 8 (mephrit) void reaper in combat?
Or a novokh ccb with blood scythe and the warlord trait?
The relic orb is the most useful thing a LORD can have. It’s wasteful on a ccb. Your ccb should have the voltaic staff to get the most out of him if he’s chilling behind your lines. A relic weapon works great if your wanting to use your ccb as a missile.
If you have two ccb’s it makes it easy to have a phaeron chilling and a melee ccb that can be aggressive. I could very easily build you a combat ccb that’s way more useful than as a orb caddy.
The movement and fly are no small thing, you’re writing off major buffs.
Cauthon wrote: Got to disagree with you. It’s a lot more than an extra gun. You wouldn’t put a strength 8 (mephrit) void reaper in combat?
Or a novokh ccb with blood scythe and the warlord trait?
The relic orb is the most useful thing a LORD can have. It’s wasteful on a ccb. Your ccb should have the voltaic staff to get the most out of him if he’s chilling behind your lines. A relic weapon works great if your wanting to use your ccb as a missile.
If you have two ccb’s it makes it easy to have a phaeron chilling and a melee ccb that can be aggressive. I could very easily build you a combat ccb that’s way more useful than as a orb caddy.
The movement and fly are no small thing, you’re writing off major buffs.
It has 4 attacks dude. It does next to nothing in melee. Like I said I like the voltaic on him. Give up very little in CC to have 2 decent shooting weapons at bs2+ and can buff. The best use for a lord though is the relic orb Which can bring back over 100 points easily anytime you use it. There is no CCB that is any good in CC without a relic so you might as well take something else to fill that CC roll IMO. 4 Wraiths or Skorp destroyers come to mind. Or even 9 Scarabs are going to do way more damage than a CCB in melee.
4 attacks? Didn’t you charge? You’ve got movement 12 and fly, pretty sure you got the charge. Are we novokh? There’s a plus 1 attack strat and the bloodscythe gives you 2 attacks, so we have 8 attacks hitting on 2’s strength 7. That’s a cookie cutter ccb and it has double the attacks you’re trying to pretend it has.
A naked ccb has 4 wounds a point of toughness and a gauss cannon on an overlord. That’s worth 50 points right there, there’s also double the movement plus fly. That’s twice as good as an overlord easy and it’s only 150% as many points.
A mephrit ccb with the void reaper and warlord trait is strength 8 tough 7. Void reaper doesn’t care about your armor save or you invulns or your feel no pains. Flat 3 damage for everyone, that’s huge! He could go hot into a unit of terminators and 1 shot a bunch of them. 5 attacks hitting on 2’s wounding on 2’s or 3’s and there’s basically no saves. What kind of dreadnaught wants any part of that? That’s nothing?
“They can’t do anything because they only have 4 attacks”? Cmon. They don’t even have to attack to be more valuable than the overlord on foot. It can hide behind your screen then jump ahead, you should always always be able to get the charge with a ccb.
Voltaic staff is great and a ccb that’s hanging back buffing and having quality shots is still money. However, you could build a (second) ccb that can ABSOLUTLEY make his points back and then some. By wrecking in combat.
The extra movement allows you to get your hq where you need it to be to spread protocols to faster units. That alone is clutch.
If you want a super cheap hq choice then maybe look at a lord. They don’t have anything better to do than be an orb caddy and they’re providing a buff that you can’t get otherwise (except for destroyer units). That 100 points should probably be a down payment on a ccb though. I wouldn’t waste a relic orb on a ccb. They’ve got better stuff to be doing that’s relic dependent.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I forgot to mention quantum shielding. How many points is that worth to ya??
I personally wouldn't really go too hard on combat CCB's since you're jumping through a lot of hoops to have a relatively underwhelming combat character that costs 150+ points. In a game where Drukhari and Marine characters are wiping out units while being in the 60-100 range it's not really a good thing to build into.
However, all of the other stuff about CCB's is absolutely correct. Unless you're super tight on points and/or playing 500-1000 points level games and just trying to squeeze in as many different kinds of units as possible then there's really no need to ever go a normal Overlord. Increased footprint for buffs, fly, vehicle keyword (for shooting into CC), quantum shielding, an extra gun and 9 wounds are pretty much always worth the extra points. Put Enduring Will on that and you have a legitimately hard to kill character.
I wouldn’t put a combat ccb in every list and I’d rarely have that as my primary ccb.
I enjoy combat ccb’s in threat over load lists. He can actually keep up with skorpekhs and wraiths and can throw his weight into combats you feel good about. I think 150 points and a cpl CP can be a fair cost to pay. He’s like a laser guided missile, you can get him anywhere you want him and he’s got bite when he gets there.
At the least he’s providing protocols and that could be huge for novokh if you’ve got your timing down.
Like I said, I’ve usually got the phaeron with voltaic before that in every list I chose to use him in.
I can’t help you with the 80 point blenders, we just flat don’t have that. That can’t mean close combat isn’t worth doing anymore. This is still ninth edition..
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’ve got a ccb and two chronomancers in every list. Third hq can be a few different things and a missile ccb is just an option I find interesting, sometimes.
Not yet having had the pleasure to use my CCB in a game, I agree with all the points made in its favor. I've mine with the Voltaic Staff and Enduring Will warlord trait. Any pre-game Warlord abilities (e.g., Triarch's Will) are better spent on a Cryptek or Royal Warden, given that they don't require your Warlord to be on the table to get their benefit. Weather or not Triarch's Will is worth the command point for Rarefied Nobility I couldn't say, but the point I suppose is that you don't need to put all your eggs in one CCB.
The Overlord on foot does have the option for the Tachyon Arrow, which seems like a useful piece of equipment to me. But I'm not sure if 100 points for a one-use item is worth it. If you take the Arrow of Infinity and use the auto-wound stratagem (Techno-Oracular Targeting) that's 6 guaranteed damage to a big target; but I don't think it's worth 100+ points and two CP (three if, C'tan forbid, you fail your hit roll). Anyone have a positive recommendation for including a Tachyon Arrow?
If I was building a melee character for Necrons I think I might start with a Lokhust Lord. He’s a fair bit cheaper than a CCB, though obviously nothing like as tough. I like how he’d buff any Skorpekhs too. I’ve actually started a conversion for one, based on a Skorpekh Lord (I’ve got 3 indomitus sets so had a spare) on a LHD’s body. So far it’s working well, though the arms are next and that’s going to be challenging. It’s quite cool that he’s got three of them, as he can hold a scythe in two and have a res orb in the third.
One slightly annoying thing about the codex is that the Indomitus characters can’t generally have the weapon relics. They’ve all got new stuff and it can’t be replaced by things like the blood scythe or voltaic staff. So I find myself converting the new guys (which are generally nicer, more detailed models) back into the old ones.
I’m not too worried about an overlord on foot getting the voltaic staff into range, of something at least. He’s an eternal expansionists so he’ll be marching about the place. I think I need to experiment with different CCB options though, because they’re definitely good.
I’ve magnetised my Imotekh’s feet so he can go on either the 25mm base he came with (to be tournament legal) or a 40mm base (to not look utterly ridiculous). This has given me ideas for Overlords too. My Voltaic staff guy will be able to go on foot or on the CCB, but that gives me the potential option to create another Overlord with the Blood Scythe, who can ride on the CCB at other times.
A mephrit ccb with the void reaper and warlord trait is strength 8 tough 7. Void reaper doesn’t care about your armor save or you invulns or your feel no pains. Flat 3 damage for everyone, that’s huge! He could go hot into a unit of terminators and 1 shot a bunch of them. 5 attacks hitting on 2’s wounding on 2’s or 3’s and there’s basically no saves. What kind of dreadnaught wants any part of that? That’s nothing?
I suggest you read the rules. There is no way a CCB can get to T7. The void reaper doesnt ignore inv. An inv is not a rule which ignores wounds. A dreadnought would only get 2 damage, because duty eternal (-1 damage) is not a rule which ignores wounds, its a rule which reduces wounds.
A mephrit ccb with the void reaper and warlord trait is strength 8 tough 7. Void reaper doesn’t care about your armor save or you invulns or your feel no pains. Flat 3 damage for everyone, that’s huge! He could go hot into a unit of terminators and 1 shot a bunch of them. 5 attacks hitting on 2’s wounding on 2’s or 3’s and there’s basically no saves. What kind of dreadnaught wants any part of that? That’s nothing?
I suggest you read the rules. There is no way a CCB can get to T7. The void reaper doesnt ignore inv. An inv is not a rule which ignores wounds. A dreadnought would only get 2 damage, because duty eternal (-1 damage) is not a rule which ignores wounds, its a rule which reduces wounds.
I thought this was the case. I was a bit confused y the claims of how good the blood scythe is. It ignores feel no pain -stuff like apothecaries. Not bad, but not all that spectacular. I could definitely see myself killing one or two deathguard (or 0 blightlords) and then getting swamped.
Nightbringer is in my list for a reason: he ignores invulnerable saves and hits like a train. He’ll take a chunk out of Mortarion and kill most other stuff. But a CCB overlord hits in melee only slightly harder than a single skorpekh destroyer, and nowhere close to as hard as a unit.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I wouldn't completely write off Overlords. In a lot of games the Overlord will achieve the same job as the CCB for 55pts less. I often find that either choice needs to stay near to my infantry blocks for the buffs, and doesn't want to be in combat. If that's the case then the extra movement and durability isn't needed.
Well, I don't like lumbering HQ in a rather static army.
CCB can wreck havoc behind enemy lines and its fun to use him in this way.
Look at your opponent's face.
I thought this was the case. I was a bit confused y the claims of how good the blood scythe is. It ignores feel no pain -stuff like apothecaries. Not bad, but not all that spectacular. I could definitely see myself killing one or two deathguard (or 0 blightlords) and then getting swamped.
Please get the names right. There is the void reaper, and there is the blood scythe. Both are different relics. The void reaper only ignores FNP abilities (like the 6+ from apothecaries, or the 5+ from revoltingly resilient), not inv. It also doesnt work against abilities which reduce damage, like duty eternal.
"You cannot ignore wounds from this attack" type stuff only counters FNP and Ghaz/Ctan's max damage per turn (faq before anything that came out that did it said they are the same thing in this case) Duty Eternal is not ignoring damage. If it was worded "Ignore 1 wound from each attack" then it would but its worded way different.
Thsi is why the Nightbringer is the most potent character killer because he ignores FNPs and invuls and wound caps. To my knowledge he is the ONLY thing that ignores all of that.
A mephrit ccb with the void reaper and warlord trait is strength 8 tough 7. Void reaper doesn’t care about your armor save or you invulns or your feel no pains. Flat 3 damage for everyone, that’s huge! He could go hot into a unit of terminators and 1 shot a bunch of them. 5 attacks hitting on 2’s wounding on 2’s or 3’s and there’s basically no saves. What kind of dreadnaught wants any part of that? That’s nothing?
I suggest you read the rules. There is no way a CCB can get to T7. The void reaper doesnt ignore inv. An inv is not a rule which ignores wounds. A dreadnought would only get 2 damage, because duty eternal (-1 damage) is not a rule which ignores wounds, its a rule which reduces wounds.
Strength and attack, not strength and toughness for the mephrit warlord trait. My bad.
Vineheart01 wrote: "You cannot ignore wounds from this attack" type stuff only counters FNP and Ghaz/Ctan's max damage per turn (faq before anything that came out that did it said they are the same thing in this case)
Duty Eternal is not ignoring damage. If it was worded "Ignore 1 wound from each attack" then it would but its worded way different.
Thsi is why the Nightbringer is the most potent character killer because he ignores FNPs and invuls and wound caps. To my knowledge he is the ONLY thing that ignores all of that.
So far
I think Be'lakor is supposed to as well if I recall the preview articel from weeks ago correctly...
I still don’t think the Relic Orb is worth the Relic slot. A mere +1 to a single reanimation roll per game. With the best odds option of using it only a 20 blob of Warriors with only a single model left, you’re looking at four additional Warriors from it. Granted that’s not nothing, but I don’t know that it’s Relic worthy. Using it on a big blog of Destroyers might be better, where those couple of extra rolls make a or break a whole multi wound model, but you’re also looking at it maybe doing nothing at all there. Instead of +1 I wish the Relic Orb gave you two uses of it.
If taking the OOE res orb prevents you taking another relic, then it's going to depend on how badly you want another relic. If all it costs you is the CP for Dynastic Heirlooms, then I think it's well worth it. A 1 CP strat that gave +1 to RP rolls would be our most used strat if it existed.
AduroT wrote: I still don’t think the Relic Orb is worth the Relic slot. A mere +1 to a single reanimation roll per game. With the best odds option of using it only a 20 blob of Warriors with only a single model left, you’re looking at four additional Warriors from it. Granted that’s not nothing, but I don’t know that it’s Relic worthy. Using it on a big blog of Destroyers might be better, where those couple of extra rolls make a or break a whole multi wound model, but you’re also looking at it maybe doing nothing at all there. Instead of +1 I wish the Relic Orb gave you two uses of it.
Tomb blades / Lychgard / A big destroyer squad all can get pretty silly amounts of points back for it. It is also great on warriors. Considering most our strats only cost 1 CP - spending 1 CP pregame to get half a unit back is totally worth it IMO.
I think the res orb can be good as it goes off in the command phase - if you use it on a big squad of warriors for example you can get free movement onto or near an objective out of phase, then secure it in the following movement phase.
But for the exact same reason this makes using the orb kinda awkward as it completely relies on prediction. You can't move to the unit, then use it. If you want to get it off garunteed then the bearer has to babysit whatever unit it wants to res. Which in turn makes it really easy for your opponent to predict what you're up to. For that reason I don't think the res orb, relic or otherwise, is worth it unless you're running 60+ warriors as you probably won't have a prime situation for it.
All your core units probably want to be near a Noble anyway for the movement buff + whatever else they are giving out. But if your opponent starts killing a unit that isn't in orb range, make sure to bring back reanimating models closer to the orb carrier. In order to be worth using an orb on, a unit needs to take a lot of casualties but not die, which means you should get quite a lot of reans to chain back to the orb.
I am looking at the Skorpekh Lord since I want to run a unit of Skorpekh Destroyers because I feel like it can really pack a punch and give the extra rerolls to the Skorpekhs, is this a bad move generally? I am not quite certain it is worth 130 pts.
teamtigerstripe wrote: I am looking at the Skorpekh Lord since I want to run a unit of Skorpekh Destroyers because I feel like it can really pack a punch and give the extra rerolls to the Skorpekhs, is this a bad move generally? I am not quite certain it is worth 130 pts.
I think people generally find the Skorpekh Lord to be a bit overpriced. For only 5 points more you could get a unit of 9 scarabs, for example. I think it's a shame he can't access any of the melee relics. I think he'd start looking more useful if you had two or more units of Skorpekhs, but doing that tends to be challenging because only one can be protected by the strat at a time.
I slightly prefer the Lokhust Lord. He's cheaper, he flies and he can have a relic. He's really good with the voltaic staff so if you have a special character Lord like Anrakyr he could be a good way to go.
teamtigerstripe wrote: I am looking at the Skorpekh Lord since I want to run a unit of Skorpekh Destroyers because I feel like it can really pack a punch and give the extra rerolls to the Skorpekhs, is this a bad move generally? I am not quite certain it is worth 130 pts.
I think people generally find the Skorpekh Lord to be a bit overpriced. For only 5 points more you could get a unit of 9 scarabs, for example. I think it's a shame he can't access any of the melee relics. I think he'd start looking more useful if you had two or more units of Skorpekhs, but doing that tends to be challenging because only one can be protected by the strat at a time.
I slightly prefer the Lokhust Lord. He's cheaper, he flies and he can have a relic. He's really good with the voltaic staff so if you have a special character Lord like Anrakyr he could be a good way to go.
Well, I'm more into a CCB Lord.
He's rather fast, can hold its own if necessary and can wreck havoc behind enemy lines.
Perfect for disrupting enemy plans.
teamtigerstripe wrote: I am looking at the Skorpekh Lord since I want to run a unit of Skorpekh Destroyers because I feel like it can really pack a punch and give the extra rerolls to the Skorpekhs, is this a bad move generally? I am not quite certain it is worth 130 pts.
I think people generally find the Skorpekh Lord to be a bit overpriced. For only 5 points more you could get a unit of 9 scarabs, for example. I think it's a shame he can't access any of the melee relics. I think he'd start looking more useful if you had two or more units of Skorpekhs, but doing that tends to be challenging because only one can be protected by the strat at a time.
I slightly prefer the Lokhust Lord. He's cheaper, he flies and he can have a relic. He's really good with the voltaic staff so if you have a special character Lord like Anrakyr he could be a good way to go.
Well, I'm more into a CCB Lord.
He's rather fast, can hold its own if necessary and can wreck havoc behind enemy lines.
Perfect for disrupting enemy plans.
After a few games, i've grown to really like the CCB with Gauss Cannon, Staff of Light, and Volataic Staff, with a rez orb providing close support for a unit of 20 reaper warriors.
I think you'd only ever look at the Destroyer Lords if you are really going heavy (2-3 units) on Destroyers and that's mainly for the rr 1's to wound. And if you were to do that then you may as well go a Lokhust Lord instead.
Skorpekh Lord is just too expensive to be a buff character, a combat character or a damage sponge. And it's not especially amazing at being a damage sponge or a combat character as-is.
It's definitely the biggest disappointment from the new releases. I was sure that the Skorpekh Lord was going to be our version of a Demon Prince - as in coming in a multipart kit with various options to build your own badass. Big missed opportunity
I think it's particularly unfortunate that they gave all the Indomitus characters new kinds of weapons but didn't create relic versions of any of them. A Skorpekh Lord with some kind of badass relic blade could be pretty cool, but he can't have anything. The same goes for the plasmancer and overlord - who I guess you could give the relic tachyon arrow.
They'd probably have had to make a specific relic weapon for the Skorpekh Lord but it wouldn't have been hard to let the Overlord have the relic scythes and the plasmancer have the staffs of light. The fact they can't be relic caddies makes them substantially worse than the older models.
To be honest if anybody has a problem with you saying that the Hyperphase Glaive is a relic Warscythe, they aren't worth playing. Especially as the other standalone Overlord comes with the Voidscythe and none of the 3 available ones have any options beyond their monopose weapon option on their sprue
It's a grey area because how can anyone enforce WYSIWYG on Overlords when their datasheets have the options but their kits come with none of them
I think it's particularly unfortunate that they gave all the Indomitus characters new kinds of weapons but didn't create relic versions of any of them.
Relic tachyon arrow disagrees.
They'd probably have had to make a specific relic weapon for the Skorpekh Lord but it wouldn't have been hard to let the Overlord have the relic scythes and the plasmancer have the staffs of light. The fact they can't be relic caddies makes them substantially worse than the older models.
They can still get Veil of Darkness. Voltaic Staff is better than the other Relic SoL and it's excellent on a Noble, that's two relics, no need for weapon relics on Crypteks. The Plasmancer's weapon is practically already a relic compared to a SoL. I am not saying we can have too many relics, I just don't see the big issue with not having them yet. I think Cryptek Arkana is very cool and it would have been sad if it was just a number of slightly up-gunned Cryptek weapons.
Cynista wrote: It's a grey area because how can anyone enforce WYSIWYG on Overlords when their datasheets have the options but their kits come with none of them
It's not grey at all lol, get converting. Nobody said this 10 years ago.
Yes it is, and yes they did. The Overlord with Voidscythe came out roughly 10 years ago. What percentage of games in that time do you think people used that weapon profile? It's going to be low.
Even in tournaments many people have used this model as-is and said it's a Warscythe. And I'd bet every player in this thread who owns the model has done it too
Cynista wrote: Yes it is, and yes they did. The Overlord with Voidscythe came out roughly 10 years ago. What percentage of games in that time do you think people used that weapon profile? It's going to be low.
Even in tournaments many people have used this model as-is and said it's a Warscythe. And I'd bet every player in this thread who owns the model has done it too
I have plenty of warscythe Overlords from Annihilation Barges, why would I use my voidscythe Overlord as a proxy? Proxying Overlords with warscythes as voidblades is no different than proxying grav guns as melta guns. Playing WYSIWYG is not being TFG, although I think proxies are fine.
There have been many Overlord releases, I probably got them mixed up
Either way I'm not saying anything about being TFG and not talking about Voidblades (which look completely different). I'm saying proxying similar melee weapons is done literally all the time, especially with monopose single weapon kits
Cynista wrote: ...I'm not saying anything about being TFG and not talking about Voidblades (which look completely different). I'm saying proxying similar melee weapons is done literally all the time, especially with monopose single weapon kits
And for the most part, nobody cares
To be honest if anybody has a problem with you saying that the Hyperphase Glaive is a relic Warscythe, they aren't worth playing.
Saying someone isn't worth playing is saying they are TFG.
I don't see the difference between voidblades and warscythes if you're proxying then you are proxying is what I am saying. Meltaguns and grav guns probably look alike as well.
Xenos getting away with proxies because they are more obscure is nice assuming it is not disturbing the play experience, I still think it is unfair to say to Necron players they can proxy while Space Marines cannot proxy power fists as chain fists, even if the Space Marines scenario is more likely to lead to confusion. I am personally in favour of allowing almost any amount of proxies, including blank bases, but if you are into WYSIWIG and don't want to allow a hyperphase glaive to act as a relic warscythe then I think that is completely fair as well and I would probably just find a different relic if you denied my proxy.
There's no real problem for Overlords. You can convert them, use one of the many other models or whatever. An Overlord can have all kinds of relic weapons... though the one out of Indomitus can only have a tachyon arrow.
But the Skorpekh Lord can't have any of those things because there are no relic versions of his unique stuff. He also can't have a res orb, which the Lokhust guy can. Meanwhile the Lokhust can fly and costs a lot less. In exchange the Skorpekh gets a moderately effective gun and weapons that are ok without using up a relic. But the end result is that a Lokhust Lord can hit harder for fewer points and can also fly and carry a res orb.
I've been finding that Eternal Paranoia is a pretty strong dynasty combo lately. Eternal conquerors has always been powerful and leans into Necrons greatest strength - playing the mission. Meanwhile Healthy Paranoia helps with what is becoming our biggest weakness - shooting. Deathguard and Dark Eldar have shown that you can't just pile a load of tough brawlers onto the midfield objectives to win. You will either get out-brawled (Deathguard) or surgically picked apart (DEldar). Necron shooting is either too short ranged, or just not very good for the price. Healthy Paranoia helps with the former, making the guns we want to take (Reapers, Entropic Staffs, Voltaic Staff) more serviceable in a shootout. It also makes a useful improvement to Gauss Cannons, which should be good if they were on more affordable platforms.
What shooting units do you guys value? There seems to literally be something wrong with every option.
I’m not into doomsday arcs or doomsday stalkers because of the massive swings and the “fact” that doomstalkers need to be taken in groups of 3 with a babysitter.
Anni barges are a joke with no ap (or even 1 ap)
I like tomb blades with gauss but they’re pretty expensive
I really like triarch stalkers but they don’t get dynasty buffs which is just awkward
Destroyers are WAY expensive. I’m not sold on heavy destroyers.
Death marks don’t get the job done. They’d be cool next to the silent king but most things are and you end up back to wondering if the points are better spent elsewhere
Doom scythes bring the heat but they’re pretty flimsy. (Why no quantum shielding?!)
I keep ending up with lists that basically only have 40 warriors a voltaic staff and a cpl entropic lances.. I’m wondering how much of a problem that’s going to be. Not being able to pop transports has me concerned all of a sudden after seeing deldar nonsense.
When I put shooting into a list it’s just been T stalkers and doomscythes and then I wish I had points for bikes. Warriors of course.
Does anyone do all shooting? Do you guys favor melee because of ninth but balanced lists? Middle objectives seem like a scary place to be all of a sudden..
In regards to shooting, I played the following list recently against Drukhari (Ravager, 3 Raiders, Wyches, Incubi + Drazar, Wracks and Grotesques without DT) at 1500:
This is an evolution on my attempt at a 1500 all vehicles list (+1 Doomsday Ark, +1 Triarch Stalker, -Scarabs -Immortals), which was too lacking in holding points.
I don't like playing silver tide, and I wanted to try something different than the Lychguard heavy lists I've been playing. It worked out pretty well, the Void Dragon brawled in the center while the barges and scarabs took outlying objectives.
Mephrite did not work out particularly well, since staying at range meant I didn't get the AP buff most of the time. However, the Annihilation barges worked out fine without it.
Overall, as far as shooting goes:
Doomsday Ark/Doomstalker: Obscuring terrain means you have to move, and the moving profile is terrible. The flayer arrays are nice though.
Annihilation Barge: I'm quite happy with these, but so far that has only been against Drukhari. You can basically delete infantry if you need to, or do decent chip damage to light and medium vehicles
Void Dragon: Solid, throwing out some mortal wounds and degrading vehicles that come too close.
Triarch Stalker: I was not impressed. The reroll is nice, but it's melee profile has too few attacks to hold a point.
Heavy Destroyers: very nice, but also very fragile.
Doom Scythe: I was quite happy with these, but yeah any fire and they drop.
Tomb Blades: I think I need to try out the Particle Beamer on them, instead of an Annihilation Barge to run with the CCB. Problem is that they're Fast Attack, conflicting with Scarabs.
Tesseract Ark: Survivable and varied. Not the highest peak damage output, but it's very consistent with what it can do.
Our lack of shooting is why I like the Void Dragon. He's a little overpriced, like all the orher C'tan, but does deal with vehicles pretty well. I always run Rad Wreathed so can deal with anything that isn't a vehicle in melee quite well. I also usually take 2 Heavy Destroyers, which are overpriced as well unfortunately, but serve a unique pupose in the army which is: a platform with a big gun under 100 points.
With the right points adjustments I could see Necrons actually being a force in the meta
Two DDAs cost a little more than the dragon, and they do more damage to vehicles, from up to 72" away. The dragon does nothing in the first two turns, maybe a few MWs, because he needs to get close to those vehicles.
p5freak wrote: Two DDAs cost a little more than the dragon, and they do more damage to vehicles, from up to 72" away. The dragon does nothing in the first two turns, maybe a few MWs, because he needs to get close to those vehicles.
Dragon is hitting with 2-3 abilites turn 1 and turn 2 he is in assault with something or they are running away. Typically they run away. His anti Vehical power is 24" and does d6 mortals to vehicals. Yeah the DDA do more damage on average probably but they also are nothing like the void. Void / much like nightbringer have an insane board presence. The ability to deny invune saves and dish out 10+ mortals a turn is higely unique and deadly.
Dragon is hitting with 2-3 abilites turn 1 and turn 2 he is in assault with something or they are running away.
The dragon has 2 ctan powers, and you can spend 1CP for a third one, which is random, and if you roll a power which isnt in range then your CP is wasted. If your opponent is stupid you can hit something with his ctan powers T1, like a chaff unit. Your dragon can kill 20 points of chaff T1, congratulations, well done. If not he does nothing T1, except moving. In T2 his threat range is 26", 8" move + 18" voltaic storm. His spear is only 20" threat range. Its no problem to keep vehicles more than 34" away from him (Move 8" T1, Move 8" T2, and 18" voltaic storm). Vehicles can move away from him, because he only has 8" move. Lots of vehicles have more than that. Your dragon will run after vehicles without ever reaching them, they will simply move away.
Dragon is hitting with 2-3 abilites turn 1 and turn 2 he is in assault with something or they are running away.
The dragon has 2 ctan powers, and you can spend 1CP for a third one, which is random, and if you roll a power which isnt in range then your CP is wasted. If your opponent is stupid you can hit something with his ctan powers T1, like a chaff unit. Your dragon can kill 20 points of chaff T1, congratulations, well done. If not he does nothing T1, except moving. In T2 his threat range is 26", 8" move + 18" voltaic storm. His spear is only 20" threat range. Its no problem to keep vehicles more than 34" away from him (Move 8" T1, Move 8" T2, and 18" voltaic storm). Vehicles can move away from him, because he only has 8" move. Lots of vehicles have more than that. Your dragon will run after vehicles without ever reaching them, they will simply move away.
If my opponent stays 26 inches away from the Void Dragon, I win on primaries.
Dragon is hitting with 2-3 abilites turn 1 and turn 2 he is in assault with something or they are running away.
The dragon has 2 ctan powers, and you can spend 1CP for a third one, which is random, and if you roll a power which isnt in range then your CP is wasted. If your opponent is stupid you can hit something with his ctan powers T1, like a chaff unit. Your dragon can kill 20 points of chaff T1, congratulations, well done. If not he does nothing T1, except moving. In T2 his threat range is 26", 8" move + 18" voltaic storm. His spear is only 20" threat range. Its no problem to keep vehicles more than 34" away from him (Move 8" T1, Move 8" T2, and 18" voltaic storm). Vehicles can move away from him, because he only has 8" move. Lots of vehicles have more than that. Your dragon will run after vehicles without ever reaching them, they will simply move away.
Vast majority of battles are fought in the midfield and 9th is about contesting objectives in dense terrain where LOS and movement can be real issues for tanks. You're painting a picture that isn't representative of the reality of the game. Turn 1 he is likely in range for 1 power and turn 2 he is in the middle of the board, exactly where you want him. If the Void Dragon is chasing vehicles away from objectives, that is a win
Dragon is hitting with 2-3 abilites turn 1 and turn 2 he is in assault with something or they are running away.
The dragon has 2 ctan powers, and you can spend 1CP for a third one, which is random, and if you roll a power which isnt in range then your CP is wasted. If your opponent is stupid you can hit something with his ctan powers T1, like a chaff unit. Your dragon can kill 20 points of chaff T1, congratulations, well done. If not he does nothing T1, except moving. In T2 his threat range is 26", 8" move + 18" voltaic storm. His spear is only 20" threat range. Its no problem to keep vehicles more than 34" away from him (Move 8" T1, Move 8" T2, and 18" voltaic storm). Vehicles can move away from him, because he only has 8" move. Lots of vehicles have more than that. Your dragon will run after vehicles without ever reaching them, they will simply move away.
I'm not going to run after vehicles. He will destroy literally everything he touches that isn't a ctan or ghaz.
I'm just saying...with an advance - hes getting 2/3 powers off turn 1.
Take antimatter / voltaic / hopefully roll a range power that has good range - trands dimensional/times arrow / ect.
That'll average about 4-5 mortal wounds. Almost no armies take chaff these days anyways.
I'm just saying...with an advance - hes getting 2/3 powers off turn 1.
Take antimatter / voltaic / hopefully roll a range power that has good range - trands dimensional/times arrow / ect.
That'll average about 4-5 mortal wounds. Almost no armies take chaff these days anyways.
Can't advance and use C'Tan powers btw. (Ditto fallback).
I don't think casting turn 1 is the priority. If it happens it happens, but the priority is making your opponent afraid of going near an objective. That's also why Sky of Falling Stars is a great pick. Sit behind obscuring terrain in striking distance of an objective, do a few MW's and give your opponent a headache.
Never had my Ctan powers be out of range and not completely dominate my opponent because i had total primary control.
24" range isnt garbage when youre in the middle of the board. hell even 12" isnt bad, just means you might not hit the optimal target but the way those powers work its pretty hard for the power to be totally wasted if it goes off at all.
I'm just saying...with an advance - hes getting 2/3 powers off turn 1.
Take antimatter / voltaic / hopefully roll a range power that has good range - trands dimensional/times arrow / ect.
Next time read the rules As others have said, no advance and ctan powers.
Dang - missed that you can't advance. That should just be removed it's a damn 350 point melee model - it doesn't need a stupid restriction like that.
Without advance these things are pretty effing useless - I am with p5freak now. I don't even feel bad for playing it wrong. LOL. His shooting attack should be assault as well.
The dragon has 2 ctan powers, and you can spend 1CP for a third one, which is random, and if you roll a power which isnt in range then your CP is wasted. If your opponent is stupid you can hit something with his ctan powers T1, like a chaff unit. Your dragon can kill 20 points of chaff T1, congratulations, well done. If not he does nothing T1, except moving. In T2 his threat range is 26", 8" move + 18" voltaic storm. His spear is only 20" threat range. Its no problem to keep vehicles more than 34" away from him (Move 8" T1, Move 8" T2, and 18" voltaic storm). Vehicles can move away from him, because he only has 8" move. Lots of vehicles have more than that. Your dragon will run after vehicles without ever reaching them, they will simply move away.
This is pure theory hammer which doesn't reflect the way games of 9th ed actually work.
A unit like the Void Dragon needs to fight for/threaten the midboard objectives, not chase theoretical kiting tanks across an infinite plain.
8" move + 24" range, no LoS required, Sky of Falling Stars means you can easily be doing stuff on the 1st turn, if that's important to you.
5/6 C.tan powers have 18"+ range, 3/6 have a 24" range, so if you use the strat to roll for a random one whilst in 18" then range is unlikely to be a problem.
All that being said, I'm not sure I'd include a Void Dragon as my anti tank solution. His AT abilities are a little bonus for the most part. If you come up against a Space Wolf dread mob you'll be laughing. He should also get to eat some Raiders against DEldar, as they like to get in close for the Grisley Trophies aura.
How are people finding the choice between the Void Dragon and Nightbringer? It looks to me like the main issue is that Nightbringer hits harder but Void Dragon has a bit of reach. Is that about right? I'm actually considering running the two of them together anyway.
The Has anyone tried using the Void Dragon's spear to snipe characters? Obviously you can't target them directly, but it looks like you could potentially have the line it draws go through a character. Would that work?
VD can stick around longer than a NB in some matchups since it has a heal outside of Living Metal.
That is basically all it has over the NB, but the NB having innate no FNP and one of his attacks ignores invuls by default is pretty gnarly. Even his special power is better imo (even if it couldnt snipe characters)
In higher point games you should be able to return fire with the blob he didn't shoot. The Silent King can kill at least 3 with his shooting alone.
As others have said, no advance and ctan powers.