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LiMunPai wrote:

The Overlord should almost certainly be the Mephrit warlord trait CCB with void reaper, which is a melee killing machine.

That Mephrit warlord trait is one of the weirdest things about this codex. The 8th edition one was nice and fluffy and I don't know why they changed it. The new one is a better melee trait than the Novokh one

 p5freak wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
How many relics do you take? How many CP are they each worth? If you know you’re taking the Veil first, is 1 CP worth it for the Voltaic Staff? 2 more CP for a third?

In my 2k list I think I want the Solar Staff for Overwatch denial to protect the charging Lychguard. Don’t know that I want to spend on that at 1k with no dedicated melee units. Still don’t think the Orb of Eternity feels worth it.

A second relic is ok for 1CP, but i wouldnt invest 2 more CP for a third one. Necrons dont have a lot of good relics. Veil of darkness and voltaic staff are probably the best.

As I mentioned above, I disagree specifically in Mephrit. My Novokh lists typically follow your guidance of only veil and Voltaic, though I'll field a CCB with the Novokh relic or Voidreaper when I'm not fielding the Silent King or Anrakyr.

The ability to stack a CCB up to strength 8 5 attacks with damage 3 is super worth it in Mephrit.

I also think the Royal Warden Mephrit Relic is super worth it, doubling the output versus the toughness 5 models that are so prevalent in the new books and nearly doubling Versus T3. Versus T4, the gun only has 1.5 times the output of the normal gun.

I don't usually take orb of eternity, but that's because I take reanimators pretty often after the points drop and usually only take characters (other than chronomancers) when I can take a relic that increases their output.

I just reread the Immovable Phalanx Dynastic Code and hadn't realised how odd it is before. Infantry get +1 to armour saves vs damage 1 attacks if the unit didn't move that Battle Round.

Firstly, I hadn't noticed it applies in close combat as well as shooting.
Secondly, because it checks for movement in that Battle round, it's always active if you're going second (unless it's your Fight Phase and you moved that turn).

It's not great to have a trait that's only really good in half of games, but it is a very strong effect when active, and mitigates the disadvantage of going second.

If you go second and start in the guardian protocol, Warriors will have a 2+ Sv in the open vs damage 1.

Yeah, that was one of the trolly things i saw early that i decided not to do when i noticed the expansionist technically ruins it.

2+ save across the board (since you hide out of LoS things that dont benefit) turn1 is gonna really piss some alphastrikers off.
6" movement would be enough to be able to fire with all non-reaper guns too so thats why i was looking at that and mega upset when i noticed it didnt work lol

Theres another part to its oddity too: "unless that unit made a Normal Move, Advanced, or Fell Back this battle round..." so...if you didnt need to move at all to get a charge off guess what you didnt do any of those lol.... Charge movement is not a normal/adv movement. (bit gamey though so expect gruff if you try that)

Though i did not notice the melee part...interesting...

Yeah doesn't work with expansionist sadly. Immortals and destroyers in terrain will get a 1+ Sv. (Although Destroyers attract multi damage shots). Might be an interesting alternative build.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Yeah doesn't work with expansionist sadly. Immortals and destroyers in terrain will get a 1+ Sv. (Although Destroyers attract multi damage shots). Might be an interesting alternative build.

I remember watching a game way back when the codex was initially released where a dude ran a bunch of immortals with that dynastic trait alongside some melee threats like skorpekhs. It was a while ago now so I cant quite remember the list properly, but vividly remember thinking how tanky the immortals where sat up in the backfield with a 2+ at T5.

By the time the guys opponent had finished off the melee wave he had basically nothing left that went into the immortals efficiently. Bare in mind though, this was back when you could choose to go 2nd so I think its actually lost some of its potential since, but definitely seemed like it could still see play regardless. I wish I could tell you guys more about it but this was months ago now and I'm not sure I could even find the video again.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Yeah doesn't work with expansionist sadly. Immortals and destroyers in terrain will get a 1+ Sv. (Although Destroyers attract multi damage shots). Might be an interesting alternative build.

Having said this, I think I'm going to try an "Immovable Expansionists" list. My thinking is that if I go second Immovable Phalanx is pretty great, so I probably wouldn't use the free move from Expansionists on any infantry (Scarabs can get moving though). If I'm going first I can double move the infantry in the 1st turn, to have a chance of getting something out of IP later.
None of the other traits seem that great in combination with IP.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Yeah doesn't work with expansionist sadly. Immortals and destroyers in terrain will get a 1+ Sv. (Although Destroyers attract multi damage shots). Might be an interesting alternative build.

Having said this, I think I'm going to try an "Immovable Expansionists" list. My thinking is that if I go second Immovable Phalanx is pretty great, so I probably wouldn't use the free move from Expansionists on any infantry (Scarabs can get moving though). If I'm going first I can double move the infantry in the 1st turn, to have a chance of getting something out of IP later.
None of the other traits seem that great in combination with IP.

Seems like it could be quite interesting, let us know if you do run it dude, I'd love to know how the game(s) go!

In regards to comboing IP with the other traits I guess it depends on what you're running. Immovable Phalanx alongside Healthy Paranoia could be great if you're spamming immortals to really double down on their bulky backfield/fire base role. If you're running a bunch of gauss flayer warriors (because reasons) then comboing IP with Isolationists to hit S5 on their flayers within 12" would help give you a little more flexibility in how you play them, as opposed to the reaper warriors close up and punchy style.

I mean the IP combo with the Eternal Guardian protocol is a fantastic durability boost don't get me wrong, but you'd only ever have that over 2 turns max (if you're running the SK). So, personally, if I was gonna run IP, I'd probably forgo protocols and give it to a patrol of immortals or something while the rest of the army maybe went obsec. Just my 2 cents, and like said, I'm keen to hear about any games you do get in bro because currently that theory hasn't been tested you know

I think I have found a sleeper OP combo. Take a Locust destroyer lord with voltaic + 3 Hextech destroyers and just run them behind your indestructible squad of warriors. It is a pretty potent shooting combo that can't be targeted due to being characters and it rerolls practically everything. With the prevalence of quinns - it could be very effective. In any case it sounds fun cause I have always liked the lokust lord but never really had a way to use his buff consistently. This at least easy to use.

Which gun do you prefer on the Triarch Stalker?

Heat Ray.

 AduroT wrote:
Which gun do you prefer on the Triarch Stalker?

Heat Ray for cheap.
Twin Heavy Gauss if i have 10 pts to spare

 AduroT wrote:
Which gun do you prefer on the Triarch Stalker?

I generally take it for the rerolls, so the particle shredder. 2 shots isn't enough to guarantee the hit. The 8 shots of the particle shredder at damage 2 and AP1 are the most broadly applicable weapon profile. The gauss is fine if I have the extra points.

Just want to take a quick sec to shout out Mephrit Tomb Blades and Annihilation Barges. I've been playing a lot of them lately, and I think they are better on the field than they are on paper.

The first -1 is the most important, after all, and with all the LOS blocking terrain in 9th, short range guns aren't as bad as they used to be. Barges and Blades do work.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think I have found a sleeper OP combo. Take a Locust destroyer lord with voltaic + 3 Hextech destroyers and just run them behind your indestructible squad of warriors. It is a pretty potent shooting combo that can't be targeted due to being characters and it rerolls practically everything. With the prevalence of quinns - it could be very effective. In any case it sounds fun cause I have always liked the lokust lord but never really had a way to use his buff consistently. This at least easy to use.

Yeah, that would be grand - I like the Glocktopus a lot and seem to find a spot for him in all my lists. Unfortunately I think the difficulty would be getting them into a place where they could do much damage, Hextechs can deep strike but the Lokhust cannot, and slow-walking them up the board (even at 8"+1d6 move) leaves you vulnerable to fire.

40kenthusiast wrote:
Just want to take a quick sec to shout out Mephrit Tomb Blades and Annihilation Barges. I've been playing a lot of them lately, and I think they are better on the field than they are on paper.

The first -1 is the most important, after all, and with all the LOS blocking terrain in 9th, short range guns aren't as bad as they used to be. Barges and Blades do work.

Anni barges take away slots from doomstalkers, lokhust destroyers, lokhust heavy destroyers, DDAs. Unless i play a spearhead detachment, i dont have slots for them.

TheNEWnew wrote:


Seems like it could be quite interesting, let us know if you do run it dude, I'd love to know how the game(s) go!

I had a game vs Space Wolves using Immovable Phalanx and Expansionists. I'm not going to do a battle report just list a few points:

I "lost" the roll off to go 1st, that made me very happy as Immovable Phalanx would be up all game - Making it good to lose the roll off is the best thing about IP.

Expansionists was still useful even though I didn't want to move much and lose IP: 2 big Scarab Swarms got to move as well as a unit that was out of LoS.

The Wolves didn't have much long range shooting so IP didn't do a lot first turn.

2nd turn my blob of 20 Warriors got jumped by reserved Flamer Aggressors and Bolter/Lightning Claw Terminators. Lots of 1 damage attacks which let IP do work! Sadly there were just too many attacks and the Warriors still died.

Later a unit of Skorpekh Destroyers laughed as the Aggressors shot them. 2+ save from IP combined with 6's to wound from their defensive strat.

The Terminators bravely ran away (using Desperate Breakout) from Lychguard and Skorpekhs who were not in the slightest bit bothered by Lightning claws.


Ultimately I don't think IP made a significant difference to the outcome, though it did have an effect. It's usefulness is quite match up dependent and it would be better vs an army with more 1D attacks.


Bonus info: For the second game running my Psychomancer made no useful contribution beyond being a Veil caddy. His abilities are just too situational. Even though I've been close enough to use them every turn, they haven't made a difference.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I think I have found a sleeper OP combo. Take a Locust destroyer lord with voltaic + 3 Hextech destroyers and just run them behind your indestructible squad of warriors. It is a pretty potent shooting combo that can't be targeted due to being characters and it rerolls practically everything. With the prevalence of quinns - it could be very effective. In any case it sounds fun cause I have always liked the lokust lord but never really had a way to use his buff consistently. This at least easy to use.

That's 330pts min(maybe 360 if you throw in a res orb for the warriors) all you get for that is 18 str 6 ap-1 shots(that's like 4 dead marines).. And the voltaic staff but your probably taking that anyways. The biggest problem is the pistols have terrible ap so they don't actually threaten much you may as well just grab 20 more reaper warriors, with ap-2 they can actually threaten a wider range of targets and can soak up a ton of firepower.

I want to like the Lokust lord as I love the design but only buffing destroyers puts him in this weird position of not being cheap enough to just throw in, and the units he buffs don't actually need his buff(if you are taking lokust destroyers your probably using the strat, similar with heavy destroyers you're probably just using the auto wound) or just aren't worth their points(the hexmark). I've tried to make the hexmark work, and in certain matchups they are fine and in others they just don't do much of anything, they pretty much need to fight something with a 5+ save to feel good, and this codex doesn't have trouble against things with a 5+ save.

Only use for the hex mark IMO is for deep striking in a character for spot protocol coverage. Not really something you plan on needing.

 p5freak wrote:

40kenthusiast wrote:
Just want to take a quick sec to shout out Mephrit Tomb Blades and Annihilation Barges. I've been playing a lot of them lately, and I think they are better on the field than they are on paper.

The first -1 is the most important, after all, and with all the LOS blocking terrain in 9th, short range guns aren't as bad as they used to be. Barges and Blades do work.

Anni barges take away slots from doomstalkers, lokhust destroyers, lokhust heavy destroyers, DDAs. Unless i play a spearhead detachment, i dont have slots for them.

I mean all of those units are underwhelming or overcosted so it's no great loss.

The only decent HS slot for Cron's currently is Lokhust Heavies and even then they're about 10 points too expensive.

The only decent HS slot for Cron's currently is Lokhust Heavies and even then they're about 10 points too expensive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/03/05 08:26:44

Truth spoken here.

Nevertheless, a well-rounded army should be able to battle the enemy at all threat ranges and here some long-range heavy-fire support is inevitable, unless the enemy plays only infantry.

I disagree, LHDs die to a stiff breeze. They arent worth 210 pts., not even 180 pts. 150 sounds ok.

 p5freak wrote:
I disagree, LHDs die to a stiff breeze. They arent worth 210 pts., not even 180 pts. 150 sounds ok.

150 for 3? That would be pretty good!

They are most efficient as a unit of 1 for 70pts, as they are a cheap-ish objective camper. Nothing else in the heavy slot is particularly attractive, it's our weakest slot.

 p5freak wrote:
I disagree, LHDs die to a stiff breeze. They arent worth 210 pts., not even 180 pts. 150 sounds ok.

What would you then suggest as HS unit for taking on heavily armored enemy units?
I still like my Doomscythes, but packing three of them is a bit difficult.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I disagree, LHDs die to a stiff breeze. They arent worth 210 pts., not even 180 pts. 150 sounds ok.

What would you then suggest as HS unit for taking on heavily armored enemy units?
I still like my Doomscythes, but packing three of them is a bit difficult.

You know what i like, DDAs. I have two, and i always use them. Yes, they are swingy. But overall its a good package, a big gun against armoured targets, 10 or 20 gauss flayer shots (which can auto wound on a roll of 6 for 1CP), heal 1 wound in my turn (2 for one turn with protocols when a character is within 6", a cryptek can heal them, or a spyder can repair them), 12" movement, FLY, QS, 4+ inv for 1CP.

The issue with DDAs for me is that they don't do the thing they are supposed to (anti-armour) well enough. They are probably the most effective overall package for the heavy slot. What I do like is that the anti tank options are all well balanced. I lean towards single LHDs but there are many disadvantages to them.

 p5freak wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I disagree, LHDs die to a stiff breeze. They arent worth 210 pts., not even 180 pts. 150 sounds ok.

What would you then suggest as HS unit for taking on heavily armored enemy units?
I still like my Doomscythes, but packing three of them is a bit difficult.

You know what i like, DDAs. I have two, and i always use them. Yes, they are swingy. But overall its a good package, a big gun against armoured targets, 10 or 20 gauss flayer shots (which can auto wound on a roll of 6 for 1CP), heal 1 wound in my turn (2 for one turn with protocols when a character is within 6", a cryptek can heal them, or a spyder can repair them), 12" movement, FLY, QS, 4+ inv for 1CP.

I know. So the question was a bit provocative, sorry, but I think quite useful in this context. Thanks for responding!

I still find space for DDAs in most of my lists, to be fair.

However, the way my local plays, I really like Nihilakh, so I would end up with a DDA sat on an objective, so it gains a second purpose.

None of our heavy support and heavy support adjacent choices are exciting, but we still need to fill the role. My main concern is a squad of 6 plasma inceptors with reroll and apothecary support wiping a unit of Warriors/Lychguard with every salvo, though Multi-meltas pointed at the SK aren't far behind on the concern list even if that isn't quite as fundamental.

I like a DDA as my single QS vehicle, especially in a Mephrit list where the Gauss has teeth. The problem I have with it, along with the randomness and static nature, is the large size making it very hard to screen and tagging it shutting off it's blast weapon. I wouldn't want to run more than one of them for that reason.

Our HQ shooting is pretty good, especially in Mephrit where the 3 inches of range pays dividends on the 18 inch chronomancer entropic lance, plasmancer gun, and Volt Staff shots. The Conduit of Stars is also quite a good ranged weapon. The SK is a bit more suspect since he needs to be hidden from the Multi-meltas that are so dangerous to him. Either way, that shooting is supplemental and not a complete solution.

Lokhust Destroyers are quite good shots if you can flood them with CP use. That's the solution I've taken in my Novokh Silent King build, and it's working quite well. They aren't very good in anything that doesn't have absurd amounts of CP available.

Lokhust Heavy Destroyers can do some corner shooting in certain matchups, but their range of effective targets is rather narrow, limiting the usefulness of that tactic. Still, a litte sniping from the back of the board might be okay in enough matchups to take a lone one to limit exposure to it's weak matchups. I do like tying one to a squad of 4 regular Lokhusts and just praying the ablative wounds gets it through the turn to shoot again.

I like Doomstalkers pretty well in a Canoptek Eternal Expansionist build. They have a narrow enough profile to be more easily screened than the DDA, but I'm certainly less inclined to take them without making a larger investment in a Canoptek wing of a list that makes more use of the support Technomancer for them and the space Canoptek Units create.

The Doom Scythe feels a little too fragile. I could see taking it if none of the other options fit your list by just dropping it in to handle a problem, but it feels like an option of last resort.

Mortals from a C'tan of some sort seem like another supplemental option, much like the HQ shooting. It's an exceedingly expensive option, though, and only the Void Dragon has the double targeted attacks versus screened low model count units to really pull it off.

That leads us to Forge World options. Besides cost and the Forge World barrier to entry, I think the Tesseract Ark is the least conditional option we have access to, and I'd like one or two to supplement my heavy firepower from range in builds where the other options don't fit. This feels like the generic option we would have hoped to be in the codex.

Acanthrites are probably too close range at 12 inches even with a good movement speed due to screening concerns, though I haven't tried it.

Tomb Sentinels seem good as a cheap option for those D6 shots, and that might be something to look into. The range is still a bit hairy.

If the tomb sentinel had QS I'd take it almost every time.

Someone made a very good point on a different thread that I've also found to be true - vehicles are only getting consistently popped when they make a push for the centre. A lot of the vehicles people are taking these days are backfield indirect fire stuff like whirlwinds and plague burst crawlers, things that can post up in a corner and spam shots out of LOS.

Initially I thought that LHDs where our best pick, and I still think their our most consistent choice in terms of anti-tank damage output, but having to expose them to get shots off on their primary targets can feel really rough some times.

Because the tomb sentinels have innate deep strike, they naturally pressure those backfield vehicles, and at 125pts aren't necessarily as much of an investment as our other HS options (even though it is a FA slot). Its still a bit of a glass cannon though, and you probs want to save a CP for it incase you need to re-roll your shots to make sure to do pop whatever you're pointing it at, so I'm not totally made up on it.

I do think it has a more consistent role though in the current meta though, and if it had quantum shielding I'd probably put one in most lists