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Those point changes seem reasonable, so they must be fake. GW doesnt do reasonable point changes

Reasonable? We needed points reductions across the board and instead my list is getting 20 points more expensive. Awesome. GW are on drugs.

Cynista wrote:
Reasonable? We needed points reductions across the board and instead my list is getting 20 points more expensive. Awesome. GW are on drugs.

Wanna explain?

Why do I need to?

Playtesting seems to be on the horizon.

I'd like to test the following list (60 Warriors, 20 Lychguard, 3 LHD, 2 Technomancers, 1 CCB).
Comments would be welcome.

So, like, remember that the most common result of a good balancing change is your list getting more expensive.

The stuff we are playing is the best stuff in the dex (that's why we are playing it), so if anything is getting a points bump, it will be that. The stuff we didn't take is getting a decrease, because it isn't even worth taking.

That said, I think the biggest change to the Necron codex wasn't in our points, it was in those secondaries. The new version of 'thin their ranks' counts wounds on stuff that isn't a monster or a vehicle. Everyone with 3 scarab units gonna be giving up the 15 on that strat, every game.

Silver Tide style lists (or whatever we are calling the 3 max scarabs, 2 max warriors, 2 c'tan, 3 plasmancers, etc) style lists may have been pushed off the edge by that. Not sure they can fight uphill through that kind of secondary deficiency.

Edit: Re, comments for wuestenfux's list... instead of Rad Wreathed, I might take the phalanx one (infantry units that haven't moved get +1 to all saves as long as the weapons shooting are 1 damage). Everything in your list is infantry, so it can all be affected. Half your games you'll be going second, so everyone will just get +1 to save vs 1 damage weapons, full stop. On those cases where you don't go second, you've still got a lot of models that can get by with the old 'remain stationary, charge' kind of situation, and a lot of objective sitters who don't need to move after 1. I think it's worth a try. (Remember those LHD will be 10 points cheaper each!)

 AduroT wrote:
Point changes:

Catacomb +10
Chronomancer w/ entropic lance +10
Immortals w/ Tesla -2
Doomsday Ark -20
Lokhust Destroyers -5
Lokhust Heavy Destroyers -10

If this is accurate, that pretty much confirms the DDA as the better option over the Doomstalker, right?

Still hoping for 180 point Doom Scythes...

Mighty Makes Righty wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
Doomsday Ark -20

If this is accurate, that pretty much confirms the DDA as the better option over the Doomstalker, right?

From my testing I would say yes. 3 DDAs is 510, 3 Doomstalkers with a Cryptek is 510. The Cryptek's healing and shooting do not measure up to QS and the increased number of gauss shots. The Cryptek is 90 pts for 140 pts of firepower assuming you are having him babysit 3 Doomstalkers. If anything I think I would have liked to see Doomsday Arks stay the same and Doomstalkers go down 5 pts.

40kenthusiast wrote:
So, like, remember that the most common result of a good balancing change is your list getting more expensive.

The stuff we are playing is the best stuff in the dex (that's why we are playing it), so if anything is getting a points bump, it will be that. The stuff we didn't take is getting a decrease, because it isn't even worth taking.

That said, I think the biggest change to the Necron codex wasn't in our points, it was in those secondaries. The new version of 'thin their ranks' counts wounds on stuff that isn't a monster or a vehicle. Everyone with 3 scarab units gonna be giving up the 15 on that strat, every game.

Silver Tide style lists (or whatever we are calling the 3 max scarabs, 2 max warriors, 2 c'tan, 3 plasmancers, etc) style lists may have been pushed off the edge by that. Not sure they can fight uphill through that kind of secondary deficiency.

Erm, its still 10W for 1 VP right? A minimum squad of 3 scarabs is 12 wounds so will just give up 1 VP, and 3 squads would give up 3VP. If you bring 3 min squads, I don't think its an auto 15 points for your opponent. Its only a problem if you bring 3 squads of like max number of scarabs, then thats gonna be an autotake for your opponent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wonder if heavy destroyers are worth it now at 60 points for one. Serious consideration.

Like two will usually reliable kill a tank if they both hit. Unless the said tank has an invul save and makes it. Two shots hitting will probably kill a Redemptor Dreadnaught too.

Two now cost 120 points. Which is more or less equal to what a tank in any faction costs these days.

Even if they die straight afterwards after killing said tank, you traded 120 points for killing a tank or a Redemptor Dreadnaught. Seems like a fair trade? And they fly move reasonably well, so you can hide them behind obscuring before flying them out only when there are good targets for them. They are like one shot weapons for taking out tanks. Everything after the turn you shoot them, if they are still around to shoot, its a bonus.

Both Destroyers are still too expensive, they need to drop another 5-10 points. The doom scythe needs a 40 points decrease. The monolith needs at least 50. I dont understand what GW is thinking. A monolith is pretty much immobile without FLY, unless there is no terrain on the table. They could have made it a fortification instead of a LOW, would be the same.

Now that tesla immortals are a bit cheaper, I am looking at the gauss ap and still liking it a bit more. What would be a better unit of 10 to support two blocks of warriors, or is it still a third block of warriors?

Necrons are really getting hit hard by the new secondaries and new armies that put out enough dakka to wipe 20-man warrior squads in a single activation. The codex is really being exposed at this point as an example of the typical GW pattern of making the early codexes in an edition underpowered compared to the later codex creep. Compare doomstalkers to lascannon chickens, it's a literal joke.

I dunno, is that really true?

As far as how we are currently doing:

I see 9 mentions of Necrons in the top 4's.

https://www.40kstats.com/top-4s

That's the same as for Orks and Dark Angels, 9x more than Aeldari, 3x more than tyranids, twice as much as Blood Angels, etc. It's a respectable, middle of the pack, kind of showing.

So, to say we are underpowered, you must be saying that that's going to change, going forward, yeah?

I'm just not sure I buy that. Like, the changes aren't particularly singling us out, and the Ad Mech aren't any worse than Drukhari in terms of being stronk. I think we'll soldier on, continue as a middle of the road codex.

40kenthusiast wrote:
So, to say we are underpowered, you must be saying that that's going to change, going forward, yeah?

I'm just not sure I buy that. Like, the changes aren't particularly singling us out, and the Ad Mech aren't any worse than Drukhari in terms of being stronk. I think we'll soldier on, continue as a middle of the road codex.

AdMech are a problem because they can delete 20 Warriors in a single shooting or melee attack pretty easily, making Reanimation Protocols useless. Drukhari have fewer ways of doing that much damage. Incubi, Drazhar, 2 liquefiers and Kabalites/Trueborn all cannot do that, the units that can kill more than 10 are melee units. 20 Vanguard (170 pts) point at a block of Warriors, pay 1CP and makes them disappear in a puff of smoke with 21 unsaved wounds. Kastelan Robots also have the firepower to end a unit of Warriors without RP. DDAs are resistant to the new and improved lascannons which is nice, but Drukhari are the new meta, if you look at winning lists they really have adapted to Drukhari, it's 90% anti-Drukhari. As the meta share of Drukhari and AdMech consumes everything Necron win rates will fall. What is the chance that an army can beat Drukhari or AdMech but not Necrons? Basically zero, no new codex is going to bring balance to the force.

I see 9 mentions of Necrons in the top 4's.

Look at the win-rate and TWIP, Necrons are just really popular, they won't be when they stop being middle of the pack and become bottom of the pack, we'll be back to 8th edition.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Necrons are really getting hit hard by the new secondaries and new armies that put out enough dakka to wipe 20-man warrior squads in a single activation. The codex is really being exposed at this point as an example of the typical GW pattern of making the early codexes in an edition underpowered compared to the later codex creep. Compare doomstalkers to lascannon chickens, it's a literal joke.

Underpoweredness can become an issue as codex creep is a fact.
But playing an army also depends on the General itself and here you should rely on tactics, experience and faith.
I like those kind of challenges. Going to a tourney with an ''underpowered'' army and doing well.

So new faqs dropped and they kinda messed with the fighting order.

Charging now counts as "fight first" rule.

Impending tons of arguments about the Silent King's aura being 'negated' by charging, even though it does not say anything about "fight last"
edit: nvm, apparently they included his aura in the "examples of fight last mechanics"

Seriously? SK better get a price drop at some point then since his aura literally does nothing now on the first round of combat.

C'tan seems very good against Admech. A pure admech list has no psykers and many admech players and lists seem to focus mainly on only shooting. Especially since Rangers and vanguard are so good now.

One or more C'tan can literally stand in front of an admech army and survive for 4 turns or possibly more. Because it doesn't matter how good your shooting is if you can only do 3 damage maximum to a C'tan during that phase.

The smart Admech players will bring in an inquisitor and run at least one or two melee units, but then it won't be quite so shooty anymore. Even psykers can be played around by having something infront of the C;tan to absorb the smites. Psychic happens before shooting.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
C'tan seems very good against Admech. A pure admech list has no psykers and many admech players and lists seem to focus mainly on only shooting. Especially since Rangers and vanguard are so good now.

One or more C'tan can literally stand in front of an admech army and survive for 4 turns or possibly more. Because it doesn't matter how good your shooting is if you can only do 3 damage maximum to a C'tan during that phase.

The smart Admech players will bring in an inquisitor and run at least one or two melee units, but then it won't be quite so shooty anymore. Even psykers can be played around by having something infront of the C;tan to absorb the smites. Psychic happens before shooting.

Most AdMech lists run at least one melee unit, your C'tan won't survive past turn 3. Delivering 3 wounds per shooting phase is an afterthought. It takes 4 Vanguard to deal 3 damage to a C'tan. That's 32 points. So your opponent is spending less than 65 points to plink 3 wounds off 2 C'ta n. For the rest of your 1300 point list he now has 1930 points of shooting. Enough to kill a unit of Warriors and a Doomsday Ark per turn. Turn 3 you'll be tabled, turn 2 if you are running your C'tan aggressively and Doomstalkers instead of DDAs.

Voltagheist Field (Fulgurite Electro-Priests): All models in this unit have a 5+ invulnerable save. When this unit completes a charge move, pick one of the target units you charged and roll a D6 for each model in the charging unit. Any rolls of 6 inflict a mortal wound on the unit you picked.

That's not, like, a useful way to measure how fast C'tan die. (You could make the same argument with a mob of ork boys or gaunts)

The problem isn't that the Admech melee unit gets them on turn 3 (surely it's not alive on turn 3, yeah?), it's that anything can melee 3 wounds off a C'tan.

But in a game where, increasingly, an enemy that gets shooting line on your units, or charge distance on them, picks them up, the C'tan are a piece that they have to access two or 3 times.

Using C'tan right takes a bit of practice, but they have a high skill ceiling. I dunno if they are good or not vs. Ad Mech yet, but it's a much more complicated question than whether or not Ad Mech shooting can do 3 wounds to them per phase.

Auxiliary Super Heavy Detachment going down to 1cp. Monolith stock going up?

 AduroT wrote:
Auxiliary Super Heavy Detachment going down to 1cp. Monolith stock going up?

Why use a Monolith when you can use a Transcendent C'tan?

 AduroT wrote:
Auxiliary Super Heavy Detachment going down to 1cp. Monolith stock going up?

Source ?

 vict0988 wrote:

Why use a Monolith when you can use a Transcendent C'tan?

How can i set up a CORE unit that is in strategic reserves 3" away from the TCtan ? How can i make the TCtan autohit in melee ?

The new Chapter Approved is changing the Command Benefit of the Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment to give you +2cp if it’s Faction matches that of your Warlord’s, so long as it isn’t one of the blanket ones like Imperium, Aeldadi, ect.

Has anyone been thinking about LHDs and LDs in a Mephrit list after reductions? I would love some input on how a unit or a couple singles might be useful to add to a mostly middle of the board force.

I don't typically, with Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers want the Mephrit -1 AP bonus. I'd usually prefer the 6+ invul save/pregame move for a list that was heavy on that kind of deal.

In any case, the fact that a pair of Heavy Destroyers is now just slightly cheaper than an Annihilation Barge, while having the same total # of wounds, strikes me as interesting. My list is Mephrit, so I still prefer the barge, but I could well imagine a Szarekhan or custom dynasty making the opposite choice.

40kenthusiast wrote:
I don't typically, with Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers want the Mephrit -1 AP bonus. I'd usually prefer the 6+ invul save/pregame move for a list that was heavy on that kind of deal.

In any case, the fact that a pair of Heavy Destroyers is now just slightly cheaper than an Annihilation Barge, while having the same total # of wounds, strikes me as interesting. My list is Mephrit, so I still prefer the barge, but I could well imagine a Szarekhan or custom dynasty making the opposite choice.

Well, I'm more into infantry these days and so I'd consider Destroyers in the first place.

Individual Lokhust Heavy Destroyers are even more appealing as action monkeys now.

40pts for 2 Cryptothralls is the baseline cost of action monkeys for crons, so an extra 20 to have a giant gun doesn't seem bad. After they have raised banners, or done the home quarters for the new scramblers, they can start blasting.

 AduroT wrote:
Auxiliary Super Heavy Detachment going down to 1cp. Monolith stock going up?

Maybe, maybe.
I could see a place for the Necron super heavies for only 1cp....They're just overcosted in points now.

 iGuy91 wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
Auxiliary Super Heavy Detachment going down to 1cp. Monolith stock going up?

Maybe, maybe.
I could see a place for the Necron super heavies for only 1cp....They're just overcosted in points now.

The monolith is actually quite good for it points to stats comparison. Probably the best unit in the codex if you look at it by those stats alone. In practice though...it doesn't get dynasty traits unless you bring 3 of them can barely move on the table. Big issues. If it was a HS choice at it's current point level though - every army would be running 3 of them. They are damn good for their points.

Though with DDA coming down in points (which also makes no sense - it was already our best HS choice) that might not be accurate anymore.

Man I wish they got Dynasty Traits. The Nephrekh 6++ and +6” ignore terrain run would be sweet.