kirotheavenger wrote:

It'll be quite annoying if this White Dwarf does contain proper Admech rules.
Firstly, why aren't those rules in the compendium to start with?
Secondly, why did they sell Admech players a compendium only to pull that practically day 1?

To get people to buy both the compendium and the White Dwarf, duh. Same reason why rules for AdMech in 40k were split across three books day one.

So they're telling us the spanking new Compendium is already gettting outdated?

Quite a [ridiculous attempt to evade the language filter] even from them

I wonder if GW predicted how disappointing the compendium would be.
The NDA on sharing the compendium ended on pre-order day, whereas the Octarius box ended a lot sooner.

Can a person excercise their 14 day return policy and ask for a refund from GW? Should be possible, at least in the EU..

I got no horse in this race since I didn't buy the Compendium, but other people might want to return theirs.. Especially AdMech players - they could easily afford the WD issue with that money and would even have money left for some comfort alcohol

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I wonder if GW predicted how disappointing the compendium would be.
The NDA on sharing the compendium ended on pre-order day, whereas the Octarius box ended a lot sooner.

Or it could have been, y'know, because the Octarius box actually had models present.


But I guess the conspiracies are more fun, eh?

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I wonder if GW predicted how disappointing the compendium would be.

I suspect they made it bad and dissapointing on purpose, so people would buy the rules for their faction separately later. I mean, if the compendium had good rules, would there be incentive to buy the new, separate rules for factions in the future?

 tauist wrote:
So they're telling us the spanking new Compendium is already gettting outdated?

Quite a move, even from them

First of all, don't try to circumvent the filter.
Second of all, we knew from the outset that this kind of thing would be happening. They outright made mention of specialized Kill Teams like the Veteran and Kommandos being a thing in addition to the Compendium lists.

And no. I'm not digging a reference up.

Remember when they tossed a booklet with all the interim warhammer army lists into a white dwarf when they changed editions from 5 to 6 because they knew they will be quickly replaced by army books?

Cronch wrote:
Remember when they tossed a booklet with all the interim warhammer army lists into a white dwarf when they changed editions from 5 to 6 because they knew they will be quickly replaced by army books?

You mean Ravening Hordes? It's remembered pretty fondly from what I can see to be honest. That 'quickly replaced by army books' wasn't entirely the case either (some didn't get replaced until 7th Edition).

Good to see the first DLC for Kill-Team is already upon us.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 tauist wrote:
So they're telling us the spanking new Compendium is already gettting outdated?

Quite a move, even from them

First of all, don't try to circumvent the filter.
Second of all, we knew from the outset that this kind of thing would be happening. They outright made mention of specialized Kill Teams like the Veteran and Kommandos being a thing in addition to the Compendium lists.

And no. I'm not digging a reference up.

Specialised as in with new model releases, we didn't know there would be WD reworks of the existing compendium factions using existing models before this.

Not that it is much of a surprise. I expect a panic rework of Genestealer Cults and Space Marines in the next few months. Maybe Eldar too.

They never said that it would be just "with new model releases" though.

They said there WOULD be new model releases tied to Kill Team. They said there WOULD be more boxes akin to Octarius for other warzones.

Something that I've harped upon since the rumored Sisters vs Pathfinders box(which I'm still maintaining is likely to be the "core" box for KT) was mentioned is that it's incredibly likely we will see a "Kill Team Specialists" sprue made available for existing factions.

The DKoK have a third sprue which is strictly the specialist bits(the club arm, the decorated veteran/stalwart, the zealot, flare gun signals officer, demo guy, and the guy holding the syringe with the pseudo-apothecary 'gauntlet') on it. A frame like that for other factions would be an easy way to make kits that might seem less than relevant suddenly super interesting...and it would allow for them to package/sell a "bundle".

We all knew the compendium was going to be a giant rip-off. And the function of the NDA was, certainly, partially designed to gag reviewers from presenting that fact to potential consumers.

If people knew just how quick the compendium would be rendered obsolete, they would have been more likely to find the rules online, instead of impulsively purchasing the "boxed deal" that had already cynically and calculatedly broken out the compendium into a separate purchase instead of just being included in the KT core rules from the get-go. I am so very amused by those who pretend to be wilfully blind to the obviousness of that fact.

Still, the new KT is a great ruleset. I really enjoy the mechanics regarding conceal orders, cover and line of sight. We've fully switched off 40k for it and while it sucks to not bring out any of the elite units we have, the better balance and simply better game system makes it an easy change.


Here's hoping the inevitable elite and commanders expansions to KT allow us to use those great units without completely destroying what is right now a great game.

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
Still, the new KT is a great ruleset. I really enjoy the mechanics regarding conceal orders, cover and line of sight. We've fully switched off 40k for it and while it sucks to not bring out any of the elite units we have, the better balance and simply better game system makes it an easy change.


Here's hoping the inevitable elite and commanders expansions to KT allow us to use those great units without completely destroying what is right now a great game.

How do you feel about any strategem-like rules in Kill Team compared to what's currently in 40k? That's one of the low points of modern GW game design to me and I wouldn't mind a game that's free of that burden. Or at least less impacted, I guess.

 Geifer wrote:

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
Still, the new KT is a great ruleset. I really enjoy the mechanics regarding conceal orders, cover and line of sight. We've fully switched off 40k for it and while it sucks to not bring out any of the elite units we have, the better balance and simply better game system makes it an easy change.


Here's hoping the inevitable elite and commanders expansions to KT allow us to use those great units without completely destroying what is right now a great game.

How do you feel about any strategem-like rules in Kill Team compared to what's currently in 40k? That's one of the low points of modern GW game design to me and I wouldn't mind a game that's free of that burden. Or at least less impacted, I guess.

They are still there, but each faction only has a handful, so you don't have to remember many. In fact, a lot of them are only for 1 specific fire team, so lets say you are playing necron warriors + necron immortals, you can ignore the ones for deathmarks and flayed ones. They can be very impactful though so they are certainly a key part of the game in terms of strategy.

Why do people insist on having to "remember" stratagems?

There's cards. There's the book. It's not like you need to shout out the stratagem you're going to use.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why do people insist on having to "remember" stratagems?

There's cards. There's the book. It's not like you need to shout out the stratagem you're going to use.

Usually? To be able to make informed decisions.

Same as with all the other rules, I guess.

I mean, by "remember" I assume people mean "...so that I can know what me and the opponent can do", not "...so I can use them". For that you're absolutely right, the rules are in the books and in the cards.

I think the AA mechanics of KT do a lot to blunt the edge of strategems tipping a match. They definitely are powerful, but KT plays much more chess-like than 40k and so there are more opportunities to manoeuvre you're way out of a "checkmate", or it at least takes more errors to be drawn into an inescapable trap.

Plus the games are faster, so if things do go awry there is time to get another game in (usually).

We are already experimenting with how to scale the game's size up. For whatever reason our gaming group is always odd numbers and so we usually like to run games with everyone involved rather than taking turns or splitting games into two 1v1.

Next plan is to allow each player to run all the kill teams allowed by their faction on a larger board (combat patrol sized). We will have weapon ranges being maxed at the size of one KT board (unless specified as being shorter like some weapons are).

Looking forward to seeing how that works out. I am hopeful that this game system is not abandoned in a few months as I can envision a "combat patrol" type box for each faction being the perfect balance for the game. Allowing some heavier hitting / characters into the game without it becoming completely broken. At that size and with the KT activation system and other rules, I think campaigns porting some of the crusade rules over will really shine!

We are already discussing how to design some house rules for units we feel would fit great in this "scale" of battle: dreadnoughts, battlesuits etc..

I hope we get a redesign of warcry inline with these changes as well. Great skirmish system!

 Albertorius wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why do people insist on having to "remember" stratagems?

There's cards. There's the book. It's not like you need to shout out the stratagem you're going to use.

Usually? To be able to make informed decisions.

Same as with all the other rules, I guess.

I mean, by "remember" I assume people mean "...so that I can know what me and the opponent can do", not "...so I can use them". For that you're absolutely right, the rules are in the books and in the cards.

And to the first part I still say....the rules are in the books and in the cards.

For all the griping people make about "needing to buy the books to know what the armies can do with stratagems" or crap like that? It's all right there in the datacard set.

Dunno... if it's anything at all as it was with Warmahordes, where all the rules were also on the cards... you absolutely needed to know your rules and your opponent's to be able to play effectively. Too many variables to do anything else.

But Warmahordes put me off for how much like a LCG was in combos and such.

Then you learn by playing...?

This isn't hard. You don't NEED to know every single wombo-combo that someone can play before ever setting models on the board.

 M0ff3l wrote:
They are still there, but each faction only has a handful, so you don't have to remember many. In fact, a lot of them are only for 1 specific fire team, so lets say you are playing necron warriors + necron immortals, you can ignore the ones for deathmarks and flayed ones. They can be very impactful though so they are certainly a key part of the game in terms of strategy.

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
I think the AA mechanics of KT do a lot to blunt the edge of strategems tipping a match. They definitely are powerful, but KT plays much more chess-like than 40k and so there are more opportunities to manoeuvre you're way out of a "checkmate", or it at least takes more errors to be drawn into an inescapable trap.

Plus the games are faster, so if things do go awry there is time to get another game in (usually).

Thanks for the input, guys!

 Kanluwen wrote:
Then you learn by playing...?

This isn't hard. You don't NEED to know every single wombo-combo that someone can play before ever setting models on the board.

To be honest, looking at some of the newer codices in 40k, the walls of stratagems are a chore. I don't want to pause the game at every point to go through my list of stratagems to see if any of them are useful right now, so in that sense I would have to remember them so I know which ones I can use at any given time. If I want to play optimally, I might also want to know this about my opponent, so I don't commit resources to something that they can protect through a strategem or something like that.

In KT there are not that many, so having a look at the start of the game is usually enough to remember what each party can do. Can't say the same about 40k tbh, so that is why I said, there are less to remember.

Also you referenced the cards earlier, but AFAIK KT does not have stratagem cards yet.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Then you learn by playing...?

This isn't hard. You don't NEED to know every single wombo-combo that someone can play before ever setting models on the board.

Have you played Warmahordes? Because it was quite hard, and yes, you actually needed to know all the "wombo-combos" to actually know how to fething play. Not for "before ever setting models on the borad", but to be able to make informed decisions on the board.

It's a set of rules that really put me off fast, but it can perfectly be a thing of presentation, and of actually having all he rules in the actual book, because as rules heavy as Infinity is, I never felt the same way with it as I felt with Warmahordes, where I needed to track down all the rules piecemeal.

Is it the same for the current 40k/KT?

Not by any real stretch of the imagination, provided y'know...you're actively playing.

So probably a Krieg style fixed roster team for the AdMech, and that probably means AdMech aren't getting a bespoke Kill Team kit.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So probably a Krieg style fixed roster team for the AdMech, and that probably means AdMech aren't getting a bespoke Kill Team kit.

Could also be compendium style rules for units that have not gotten rules yet.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Not by any real stretch of the imagination, provided y'know...you're actively playing.

That... seems like a non-sequitur. You are also actively playing in Warmahordes, you know.

But from other responses, it seems like, at least for the moment, the "stratagems" for KT are manageable enough.

I actually like the strategic/tactical split. The really big all-Team ones you have to decide about using before either you or your opponent moves and you have to balance them against having CP left to maybe get an emergency re-roll later.
You get some of the same effect in 40K but a) there are way more CP floating about and b) lots of ways to generate more. Plus a lot of the time you know where the opponent will be at all times during your turn.

Aeneades wrote:
Next White Dwarf will have 16 pages of new Ad Mech rules for Kill Team. This is in addition to a 6 page guide to Ad Mech kill teams, short story, battle report and 4 page discussion with a KT designer.

Well back Rogue Trader era, I missed having my army drastically change month to month. But seriously, it will probably get me to buy White Dwarfs since there’s actually things I care about in them.

I don't think traxking strats/ploys etc is too much of a chore in KT2. You got your 3 cards, plus your handful of faction specific ploys. And with only 3CP at the start of a game, up to a maximum of 7CP if you never spend a CP before the last turning point.. nowhere near the clusterflock of 40K

Yeah, I've just been able to look at the book since yesterday, but I am more favorably impressed than I thought I would be with it. I still think the movement symbols are unnecessary and stupid, since they specifically tell you that you can break up or combine any symbols, but I like the stratagems and equipment more than the implementation in 40K. A freaking widget with 1", 2", 3" would have served precisely as well. I can't find any point anywhere in the rules where the symbols do anything that inches do not do (especially since you always round up or down to whole numbers).

The factions that have a specialized Kill Team are just way more interesting, though, than the ones in the Compendium. It may actually be a bad sign for AdMech that they are getting rules in White Dwarf. I suspect that the factions that are getting new models in the quarterly KT releases won't show up in the magazine, and the ones with no release planned are the ones that will show up there.

I also think that KT 2021 would have benefitted immensely from a designer's commentary on Warhammer Community. It really feels like it was, even more than 40K, deliberately designed as the pivotal moment of a larger battle. It is almost the counterpoint to Necromunda, where a lot of the game is jockeying for position, establishing or denying lines of sight, waiting out your opponent, etc. This game would be TERRIBLE if that was what it was trying to be. Instead, it basically assumes everybody has already gotten into position, and this just the deciding seconds of the firefight.

If you want lots of maneuvering and positioning like Necromunda, or even lots of back and forth like 40K (attempts), this is not the right game.

I wonder if the symbols are a stop gap from an earlier version of Kill Team development ~cough~Fireteam~cough~ You know in early development when the game used 2” hexes instead of free movement.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/09/16/gen-con-tau-pathfinders-rumble-with-all-new-novitiate-sisters-in-the-first-kill-team-expansion/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_campaign=40k&utm_id=Twitter&utm_term=40k&utm_content=40kChalnath16Sept21

Kill Team: Chalnath with SoB & Tau

Kill Team: Chalnath contains a full complement of Imperial ruins to fill your killzone, with plenty of Vantage Points and Obscuring terrain.

Inside the box, you’ll find a Rules Manual that includes nine new missions, covering everything from broadcasting propaganda to launching missile strikes against your opponents. The book also contains expanded rules for both squads in the box, with a whole host of bespoke Strategic Ploys, Battle Honours, and more – like we saw for the two factions in the Kill Team: Octarius launch box.

Anyone received the new White Dwarf with the Ad Mech rules yet? I usually get my subscription copy early but hasn’t turned up yet.

My local Tesco has broken street date and has it up for sale.

Not too taken With the noviciate design. It’s a bit too low tech for my liking.

Aeneades wrote:
Anyone received the new White Dwarf with the Ad Mech rules yet? I usually get my subscription copy early but hasn’t turned up yet.

My local Tesco has broken street date and has it up for sale.

Lucky you....I can't even order it until October!

Aeneades wrote:
Anyone received the new White Dwarf with the Ad Mech rules yet? I usually get my subscription copy early but hasn’t turned up yet.

My local Tesco has broken street date and has it up for sale.

The scans are online, so someone has.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Aeneades wrote:
Anyone received the new White Dwarf with the Ad Mech rules yet? I usually get my subscription copy early but hasn’t turned up yet.

My local Tesco has broken street date and has it up for sale.

The scans are online, so someone has.

Mine just arrived!

14 new operatives. You take one of the four from the leader list and then nine from a selection of ten troopers.

Mix of Skitarii Rangers, Skitarri Vanguards, Sicsrian Ruststalkers and Infilitrators.

Recycling old models and terrain is a bit lame (but not unexpected) after Octarius but at least the Sisters are nice. Someone pointed out the potential Sisters of Sigmar conversions for Mordheim and that is an option I have to seriously consider.

Sisters and Tau are both new, only the terrain isn’t.

 Nostromodamus wrote:
Sisters and Tau are both new, only the terrain isn’t.

The Tau are an upgrade sprue with the existing kit.

This terrain is otherwise out of print so there's some value here for people who missed it, probably even more so for those who have some and want to expand.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Nostromodamus wrote:
Sisters and Tau are both new, only the terrain isn’t.

The Tau are an upgrade sprue with the existing kit.

Indeed.

Warhammer Community article wrote: This is an update to the existing T’au Pathfinder kit, which comes with a comprehensive upgrade sprue to add a great number of options to an already-flexible squad. There are new heads, weaponry, upgrades, and all the gadgets a high-tech team of incredibly skilled operators could need.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/09/16/gen-con-tau-pathfinders-rumble-with-all-new-novitiate-sisters-in-the-first-kill-team-expansion/

poor-man (woman) sister is a huge meh, awkward pose and they couldn't even bother to design a Sister-pattern Autopistol. You can't be that lazy to even make 1 pattern when Tzaangor have 3 different patterns for that gun.

I could see myself getting one of these boxes, and then trying to find someone selling a second set of Sisters + some of the terrain sprues.

Is it weird that the thing I'm happiest about the most is the Sector Imperialis archway sprue coming back?

I’ve still got the big building, less the statutes on sprue.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’ve still got the big building, less the statutes on sprue.

I have all of it still on the sprue!

But only one archway sprue... I need more...

I knew it would happen, but I'm annoyed the rules for the kill teams are in the terrain box, and not in the kits themselves.

I'll just to have to find other ways to get the rules I need, I guess.

wonder how much the new Kill Team core box will be considering they cut out some of the terrain? Wonder if Chalnath will be $200 USD as well. Also the orks and death korps boxes will be releasing solo so we should get a view of what those boxes will be.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’ve still got the big building, less the statutes on sprue.

I have all of it still on the sprue!

But only one archway sprue... I need more...

These days I look at my archway thing built out of 4 of them built into a square and cringe. So many better uses, but thanks to the original kill team starter I had so many spare at the time.

What I really miss is the 3 wide wall panel sprue that only appeared in the Sector holiday set. Maybe that will reappear in the next box set? Or even better some chaos or eldar buildings like the ork shantytown. Too bad this one passed up the chance for a set of T'own buildings.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’ve still got the big building, less the statutes on sprue.

I have all of it still on the sprue!

But only one archway sprue... I need more...

I think mine include the archway.

I don't think the new KT box can cost the same as Octarius. No core rules, no tokens, no cards, no barricades or gauges.. I'd wager it will end up costing about the same as a 40K Battleforce box.

I like that the SoB are boobplateless, but want to see the sprues in order to know just how flexible the new kit is.

I'm at two minds regarding the Pathfinders. I love the new upgrade sprue, it could spice up any T'au infantry unit with the new heads & accessories. but at the same time, the old sculpt of the kit, especially the legs, still look derpy.

Very disappointed with the Sisters - do not like the headgear on any of them at all - and agree they look more at home in Fantasy than 40k. Is a bummer because I was hoping they'd come out with a small mixed box of Sisters at some point that I could have picked up for fun.

Overall I find these recent news refreshing, we will have 5 proper Killteam lists out soon, 4 with an individualized model range. 2 of them are xenos and none are Mureens. I know the sky is falling. I'm happy that after so much Marine on Marine action, this design team dares to go with a different approach. In many regards that is. Also they uphold what the main 40K line betrayed, that 2021 would be a Xenos year. a 7/10 for me on the first look.

The sisters look different, but I do not really see it that problematic. Apart from some of the facial structures, I really like the design. It's feminine and muscular without going into the boobplate territory of over feminisation.
It's different, especially on the headgear. But then I don't see a problem for long time players, since about any of the models has at least one model in the current range that is close enough to replace/count as with. Maybe thats the only real issue, they do not look that different as individuals in gear compared to the DKoK or Ork kit. Also as already mentioned, Fantasy players have some nice conversion posibilites. I really like that we are getting access to Novitiates. Were there ever models for that? So that is a plus on the fluff side.

T'au are effectively only getting an upgrade sprew. I think the design fits in nicely with the current range (any wonkyness aside) and let's face it, they won't get a redo of Pathfinders for a long time.

Completely new Xenos terrain would have been best, but at least it is an otherwise unavailable kit. It is a bit bland though, the Ork terrain has lots of details comparatively.

Again, I really like that Killteam is at least feeling different and so far it feels for me more like the design team got a pass to do what they love, instead of doing what is best based on marketing/sales analytics.

Have we heard what Kill teams 5 and 6 are going to be?

I know the Rangers are a pretty good bet, but I wasn't aware of anything actually stating that.

Oh, we're getting Not!Scouts to go with out Not!Predator in our Not!Space Marines. Neat!

A little more seriously, I appreciate getting a new Sisters unit. I'll appreciate it even more if it ends up as our second Troops choice and allows for a little more variety in army building.

As for the execution, I'm not immediately thrilled by what I'm seeing. On the other hand, I'm not seeing anything necessarily standing out negatively either. Seems like a kit I'm going to have to see more of before I have a firm opinion on it. What I do have an opinion on is the color scheme. It's horrid. Normally I just acknowledge that 'Eavy Metal style isn't for me and move on safe in the knowledge that it's just a paintjob and my models will look pleasing to me, but in this case the color scheme actively gets in my way when I try to figure out if I like the models. It's really hard for me to see past it.

For the specific bits shown, I'm less interested in the Kill Team specialists and am getting a best of Sisters equipment vibe from them that's even stronger than what I got from the Death Korps. Not enough normal guys to make the special guys actually look special, and not enough uniformity for a force that I would generally describe as very regimented.

And the color scheme sucks.

 tauist wrote:
I like that the SoB are boobplateless..

Well duh! Can't have boobplate if you're not wearing plate.

 Geifer wrote:
Oh, we're getting Not!Scouts to go with out Not!Predator in our Not!Space Marines. Neat!

Don't forget the Not!Chaplain, Not!Lieutenant, Not!Bladeguard Vets, Not!Terminators...

New Sisters - nice ( although we do now have the first world problem of Marine style constant releases! So new unit straight after Codex....)

I quite like the models too and some nice new options (and probably could make some nice Sisters of Sigmar)

I like the theme - faith and close combat vs Technology and Stealth

The Tai models are ok but ughh that burst cannon drone - is that really the best they could do?

 Mr Morden wrote:
New Sisters - nice ( although we do now have the first world problem of Marine style constant releases! So new unit straight after Codex....)

I quite like the models too and some nice new options (and probably could make some nice Sisters of Sigmar)

I like the theme - faith and close combat vs Technology and Stealth

The Tai models are ok but ughh that burst cannon drone - is that really the best they could do?

Not that it really changes your point but the drones aren’t new, they’re part of the existing Pathfinders kit.

The problem I see with the sisters is that they aren’t equipped with survival gear and accessories such as backpacks and things of that nature that were heavily represented with the two initial KT forces, Kommandos and DKoK. I think it’s jarring visually, but because they are a new unit, the other visual elements distract from what isn’t present.

Dread Master wrote:
The problem I see with the sisters is that they aren’t equipped with survival gear and accessories such as backpacks and things of that nature that were heavily represented with the two initial KT forces, Kommandos and DKoK. I think it’s jarring visually, but because they are a new unit, the other visual elements distract from what isn’t present.

Who needs junk when you have faith

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
Oh, we're getting Not!Scouts to go with out Not!Predator in our Not!Space Marines. Neat!

Don't forget the Not!Chaplain, Not!Lieutenant, Not!Bladeguard Vets, Not!Terminators...

Marines have so many units thanks to years of codices, supplements, and a second primaris range overlapped on top that it is easy to find a comparable unit to practically anything if one is so inclined. If Seraphim came out these days, they would be mocked as "Not!Assault Marines" while Retributors would be "Not!Devastators"

Dread Master wrote:
The problem I see with the sisters is that they aren’t equipped with survival gear and accessories such as backpacks and things of that nature that were heavily represented with the two initial KT forces, Kommandos and DKoK. I think it’s jarring visually, but because they are a new unit, the other visual elements distract from what isn’t present.

That would have more of a point if one of the Kill Team "archetypes" were not literally called 'Security"...

It makes 100% sense that some of these KTs aren't going to be outfitted as though they're going out in the bush for months at a time(which, btw, looks to be standard for the DKoK's backpacks) given that.

I wasn’t as precise in my observation as I could have been. It is less that I have a problem with the novitiates not having survival gear as much as the absence of gear sets them apart in a way that isn’t obvious at first glance, and I have noticed some here and some on other boards saying they couldn’t quite put their finger on what was off putting about them. When I gave it some thought, I found that was what it was for me, and I am conjecturing that it may be for others as well.

 Mr Morden wrote:
New Sisters - nice ( although we do now have the first world problem of Marine style constant releases! So new unit straight after Codex....)

That's more of a recent but general development than something specific to Marines. And one particular first world problem I'll gladly accept the beneficial half of. But it's really just GW exploiting something they can exploit when there's no inherent need to do things this way and still release the same models at similar times.

But yeah, I'd rather have that than not get new models. I've done that for a decade and a half. It got old.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Dread Master wrote:
The problem I see with the sisters is that they aren’t equipped with survival gear and accessories such as backpacks and things of that nature that were heavily represented with the two initial KT forces, Kommandos and DKoK. I think it’s jarring visually, but because they are a new unit, the other visual elements distract from what isn’t present.

Who needs junk when you have faith

Eh. 40k has armor of faith. Fallout has armor of junk. I know which one has been consistently more useful to me.

But on the actual point, I don't see Sisters, as in the main body of the organization, as a covert ops force in any meaningful way. So I'm not tied to any particular look for them because neither modern tacticool nor classic commando look go with the general appearance of the army. Interestingly enough Novitiates not having backpacks of any kind by default and featuring a generally plain appearance should make it easy to add such things if you are so inclined and have suitable bits.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
Oh, we're getting Not!Scouts to go with out Not!Predator in our Not!Space Marines. Neat!

Don't forget the Not!Chaplain, Not!Lieutenant, Not!Bladeguard Vets, Not!Terminators...

Marines have so many units thanks to years of codices, supplements, and a second primaris range overlapped on top that it is easy to find a comparable unit to practically anything if one is so inclined. If Seraphim came out these days, they would be mocked as "Not!Assault Marines" while Retributors would be "Not!Devastators"

Yeah, one of my bigger issues with the expansion of Marines in recent times has been that they often enough stole the identities of units from other armies (and... occasionally... ended up fulfilling those roles better) and in the process lost a lot of their own identity. Which I think is a shame, if an understandable move by GW.

I don't mind the expansion of Sisters in a similar manner because it happens to all armies eventually and they are 15 years behind everyone else, so they were bound to get more stuff but aren't necessarily bloated yet. I just wish GW simply released the handful of existing old units they omitted in the transition to plastic, be it Death Cult Assassins to get them out of resin and into plastic, or entirely new Frateris Militia so we can have a proper good angry mob, before delving into adventurous new models like those new mech suits. Not even because I'd rather see those units than the mech suits, which I do, but because it feels silly to get a near complete plastic update but then have those one or two units that they just refuse to update. I found that irritating with Flayed Ones for many years, Tyranids aren't much different in this, and now Sisters are in the same situation. Like there's this inexplicable and irrational need on GW's part to always stop short of finishing something. Oh yeah, plastic Techmarine says hi.

Dread Master wrote:
I wasn’t as precise in my observation as I could have been. It is less that I have a problem with the novitiates not having survival gear as much as the absence of gear sets them apart in a way that isn’t obvious at first glance, and I have noticed some here and some on other boards saying they couldn’t quite put their finger on what was off putting about them. When I gave it some thought, I found that was what it was for me, and I am conjecturing that it may be for others as well.

One of the other things to take into consideration?

The DKoK have an additional sprue that was entirely separate to what the boxed set was likely intended to have. The bits with the flare gun, the "bruiser", the demo-charges, the Zealot, and the medic with the apothecary styled 'bonesaw arm' plus the syringe bag and everything?

That's all here:


The Kommandos, on the opposite end of the spectrum, are literally just all one interconnected kit. There's connection points for the runners on all elements of the sprues. DKoK only have the 'basic squad' on an interconnected sprue.

Who knows how these Novitiates are going to be set up for KT or 40k?

Schmapdi wrote:
Very disappointed with the Sisters - do not like the headgear on any of them at all - and agree they look more at home in Fantasy than 40k. Is a bummer because I was hoping they'd come out with a small mixed box of Sisters at some point that I could have picked up for fun.

I will second this. The sisters looks straight out of AOS they don't belong in the 40k world. Hard pass on my end as well. Pathfinders don't sweeten the deal. I was lucky to get two sets of the first KT terrain so that isn't needed either.

The Tau got their new water pistol to faceoff against sister.

Chopstick wrote:
The Tau got their new water pistol to faceoff against sister.

arguably all they need to face off against 16th century clergy women.

Dread Master wrote:
The problem I see with the sisters is that they aren’t equipped with survival gear and accessories such as backpacks and things of that nature that were heavily represented with the two initial KT forces, Kommandos and DKoK. I think it’s jarring visually, but because they are a new unit, the other visual elements distract from what isn’t present.

I would say if you're disappointed in that, prepare to be disappointed a lot, as I think it was more of a coincidence that those were the factions chosen for the initial release than a specific design brief for KT.

The DKoK in the KT box are no more survivalist equipped than any other DKoK models, and Kommandos have always been that way also, I'm not expecting it to be a trend we see throughout the Kill Team releases.

Chopstick wrote:
The Tau got their new water pistol to faceoff against sister.

With how the Sisters are equipped, they would arguably need just a bow and arrow, or a well-thrown rock to take them out.

angel of death 007 wrote:

Chopstick wrote:
The Tau got their new water pistol to faceoff against sister.

arguably all they need to face off against 16th century clergy women.

And they are still gonna get their butt kicked in hand-to-hand. A Pythonesque anime about advanced aliens attacking medieval teenage girls and running back to their home world scarred for life.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Dread Master wrote:
The problem I see with the sisters is that they aren’t equipped with survival gear and accessories such as backpacks and things of that nature that were heavily represented with the two initial KT forces, Kommandos and DKoK. I think it’s jarring visually, but because they are a new unit, the other visual elements distract from what isn’t present.

I would say if you're disappointed in that, prepare to be disappointed a lot, as I think it was more of a coincidence that those were the factions chosen for the initial release than a specific design brief for KT.

The DKoK in the KT box are no more survivalist equipped than any other DKoK models, and Kommandos have always been that way also, I'm not expecting it to be a trend we see throughout the Kill Team releases.

Read the post I followed that up with. I never expressed disappointment. I was giving voice to what I thought may have been what people were finding off putting about the sisters. I actually like the models.

Oh, it’s the scenery from the original box.
I sold all mine for really good money years later.
That archway in fact was over £25 as it was hard to come by.
I guess those prices will drop again, good I shifted when I did then.

I like the sisters, and to be fair the tau do look different and cool

Dread Master wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Dread Master wrote:
The problem I see with the sisters is that they aren’t equipped with survival gear and accessories such as backpacks and things of that nature that were heavily represented with the two initial KT forces, Kommandos and DKoK. I think it’s jarring visually, but because they are a new unit, the other visual elements distract from what isn’t present.

I would say if you're disappointed in that, prepare to be disappointed a lot, as I think it was more of a coincidence that those were the factions chosen for the initial release than a specific design brief for KT.

The DKoK in the KT box are no more survivalist equipped than any other DKoK models, and Kommandos have always been that way also, I'm not expecting it to be a trend we see throughout the Kill Team releases.

Read the post I followed that up with. I never expressed disappointment. I was giving voice to what I thought may have been what people were finding off putting about the sisters. I actually like the models.

I think what people have said has put them off is simply they look too much like Fantasy models instead of Sci-Fi models. The nun style veil and leather looking chest piece (shirt?) and leggings. The crossbow and not many gun type weapons all give them that Fantasy type vibe.

The Sisters look less like an infiltrating commando unit and more like inexperienced Sororitas-in-training who are repelling a surprise Tau panty-raid.

It really looks like they were minding their own business of prayer and training when suddenly the party was crashed by some Pathfinders. It would explain the limited arms and lack of tacti-cool gear.

 KidCthulhu wrote:
The Sisters look less like an infiltrating commando unit and more like inexperienced Sororitas-in-training who are repelling a surprise Tau panty-raid.

It really looks like they were minding their own business of prayer and training when suddenly the party was crashed by some Pathfinders. It would explain the limited arms and lack of tacti-cool gear.

This makes no sense, who wears skinny jeans to prayer? Smh.

 KidCthulhu wrote:
The Sisters look less like an infiltrating commando unit and more like inexperienced Sororitas-in-training who are repelling a surprise Tau panty-raid.

It really looks like they were minding their own business of prayer and training when suddenly the party was crashed by some Pathfinders. It would explain the limited arms and lack of tacti-cool gear.

There's not a ton of 'tacti-cool' gear in any of the Sisters of Battle models. They bring bolters, chainswords, and lots of purity seals. Getting snipers, auspexes, and other things just doesn't feel very 'sisters-y' at all.

Honestly, the kit feels like an opportunity to spruce up other sister's kits and give people more options. Those arms, as I've said before, are likely easily swappable between other sisters of battle units.

drbored wrote:

 KidCthulhu wrote:
The Sisters look less like an infiltrating commando unit and more like inexperienced Sororitas-in-training who are repelling a surprise Tau panty-raid.

It really looks like they were minding their own business of prayer and training when suddenly the party was crashed by some Pathfinders. It would explain the limited arms and lack of tacti-cool gear.

There's not a ton of 'tacti-cool' gear in any of the Sisters of Battle models. They bring bolters, chainswords, and lots of purity seals.

And this kit seemingly comes with 0 Bolters, 1 Chainsword and 2 Purity Seals. The fact they're painted very much unlike Sisters for the most part, and don't wear the helmets associated with them doesn't help.

Just like the DKoK, a different paint scheme would help. The brown robes and jeans ain't working. Other than that they seem fine.

and after they've finished beating up the Tau they can get back to their prayer

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

drbored wrote:

 KidCthulhu wrote:
The Sisters look less like an infiltrating commando unit and more like inexperienced Sororitas-in-training who are repelling a surprise Tau panty-raid.

It really looks like they were minding their own business of prayer and training when suddenly the party was crashed by some Pathfinders. It would explain the limited arms and lack of tacti-cool gear.

There's not a ton of 'tacti-cool' gear in any of the Sisters of Battle models. They bring bolters, chainswords, and lots of purity seals.

And this kit seemingly comes with 0 Bolters, 1 Chainsword and 2 Purity Seals. The fact they're painted very much unlike Sisters for the most part, and don't wear the helmets associated with them doesn't help.

We also haven't seen the entire kit. The main 'novitiate' unit for 40k is likely autopistols and combat blades, and all the bits they're showing off are the ones designed more for Kill Team, to show a group of ladies in various phases of their specialized training.

Either way, your point doesn't bother me.

drbored wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

drbored wrote:

 KidCthulhu wrote:
The Sisters look less like an infiltrating commando unit and more like inexperienced Sororitas-in-training who are repelling a surprise Tau panty-raid.

It really looks like they were minding their own business of prayer and training when suddenly the party was crashed by some Pathfinders. It would explain the limited arms and lack of tacti-cool gear.

There's not a ton of 'tacti-cool' gear in any of the Sisters of Battle models. They bring bolters, chainswords, and lots of purity seals.

And this kit seemingly comes with 0 Bolters, 1 Chainsword and 2 Purity Seals. The fact they're painted very much unlike Sisters for the most part, and don't wear the helmets associated with them doesn't help.

We also haven't seen the entire kit. The main 'novitiate' unit for 40k is likely autopistols and combat blades, and all the bits they're showing off are the ones designed more for Kill Team, to show a group of ladies in various phases of their specialized training.

Either way, your point doesn't bother me.

I'm not sure what's the logic behind Sisters of Battle fielding squads of recruits equipped worse than Cultists would be, since one assumes they'd want some to survive the recruitment.

drbored wrote:

We also haven't seen the entire kit. The main 'novitiate' unit for 40k is likely autopistols and combat blades, and all the bits they're showing off are the ones designed more for Kill Team, to show a group of ladies in various phases of their specialized training.

There's at least one shown with an Autogun in the video. I'm thinking that is more likely the 'default' option.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

drbored wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

drbored wrote:

 KidCthulhu wrote:
The Sisters look less like an infiltrating commando unit and more like inexperienced Sororitas-in-training who are repelling a surprise Tau panty-raid.

It really looks like they were minding their own business of prayer and training when suddenly the party was crashed by some Pathfinders. It would explain the limited arms and lack of tacti-cool gear.

There's not a ton of 'tacti-cool' gear in any of the Sisters of Battle models. They bring bolters, chainswords, and lots of purity seals.

And this kit seemingly comes with 0 Bolters, 1 Chainsword and 2 Purity Seals. The fact they're painted very much unlike Sisters for the most part, and don't wear the helmets associated with them doesn't help.

We also haven't seen the entire kit. The main 'novitiate' unit for 40k is likely autopistols and combat blades, and all the bits they're showing off are the ones designed more for Kill Team, to show a group of ladies in various phases of their specialized training.

Either way, your point doesn't bother me.

I'm not sure what's the logic behind Sisters of Battle fielding squads of recruits equipped worse than Cultists would be, since one assumes they'd want some to survive the recruitment.

Space Marines and specially black templars have been doing it since forever and one space marine recruit is more logistically expensive than a sisters of battle neophite.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Spoiler:

drbored wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

drbored wrote:

 KidCthulhu wrote:
The Sisters look less like an infiltrating commando unit and more like inexperienced Sororitas-in-training who are repelling a surprise Tau panty-raid.

It really looks like they were minding their own business of prayer and training when suddenly the party was crashed by some Pathfinders. It would explain the limited arms and lack of tacti-cool gear.

There's not a ton of 'tacti-cool' gear in any of the Sisters of Battle models. They bring bolters, chainswords, and lots of purity seals.

And this kit seemingly comes with 0 Bolters, 1 Chainsword and 2 Purity Seals. The fact they're painted very much unlike Sisters for the most part, and don't wear the helmets associated with them doesn't help.

We also haven't seen the entire kit. The main 'novitiate' unit for 40k is likely autopistols and combat blades, and all the bits they're showing off are the ones designed more for Kill Team, to show a group of ladies in various phases of their specialized training.

Either way, your point doesn't bother me.

I'm not sure what's the logic behind Sisters of Battle fielding squads of recruits equipped worse than Cultists would be, since one assumes they'd want some to survive the recruitment.

Once you take away the Holy Trinity, you are down to standard weapons for these unproven Sisters. Need to earn your power armor and bolter.

It is also likely that fielding Novitiates isn't standard battle tactics. These Sister have been pressed into service before their training has been completed. You go to war with the resources you have, not the resources you need.

 alextroy wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Spoiler:

drbored wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

drbored wrote:

 KidCthulhu wrote:
The Sisters look less like an infiltrating commando unit and more like inexperienced Sororitas-in-training who are repelling a surprise Tau panty-raid.

It really looks like they were minding their own business of prayer and training when suddenly the party was crashed by some Pathfinders. It would explain the limited arms and lack of tacti-cool gear.

There's not a ton of 'tacti-cool' gear in any of the Sisters of Battle models. They bring bolters, chainswords, and lots of purity seals.

And this kit seemingly comes with 0 Bolters, 1 Chainsword and 2 Purity Seals. The fact they're painted very much unlike Sisters for the most part, and don't wear the helmets associated with them doesn't help.

We also haven't seen the entire kit. The main 'novitiate' unit for 40k is likely autopistols and combat blades, and all the bits they're showing off are the ones designed more for Kill Team, to show a group of ladies in various phases of their specialized training.

Either way, your point doesn't bother me.

I'm not sure what's the logic behind Sisters of Battle fielding squads of recruits equipped worse than Cultists would be, since one assumes they'd want some to survive the recruitment.

Once you take away the Holy Trinity, you are down to standard weapons for these unproven Sisters. Need to earn your power armor and bolter.

It is also likely that fielding Novitiates isn't standard battle tactics. These Sister have been pressed into service before their training has been completed. You go to war with the resources you have, not the resources you need.

Which is great.
"Hey which Kill Team faction do you want to play: The veteran guardsmen? The expertly trained Tau pathfinders? The fearsome Ork Kommandos? Or... the church soldiers who didn't finish bootcamp?"

GW's really selling me on the faction as not being NPCs...

Rihgu wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Spoiler:

drbored wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

drbored wrote:

 KidCthulhu wrote:
The Sisters look less like an infiltrating commando unit and more like inexperienced Sororitas-in-training who are repelling a surprise Tau panty-raid.

It really looks like they were minding their own business of prayer and training when suddenly the party was crashed by some Pathfinders. It would explain the limited arms and lack of tacti-cool gear.

There's not a ton of 'tacti-cool' gear in any of the Sisters of Battle models. They bring bolters, chainswords, and lots of purity seals.

And this kit seemingly comes with 0 Bolters, 1 Chainsword and 2 Purity Seals. The fact they're painted very much unlike Sisters for the most part, and don't wear the helmets associated with them doesn't help.

We also haven't seen the entire kit. The main 'novitiate' unit for 40k is likely autopistols and combat blades, and all the bits they're showing off are the ones designed more for Kill Team, to show a group of ladies in various phases of their specialized training.

Either way, your point doesn't bother me.

I'm not sure what's the logic behind Sisters of Battle fielding squads of recruits equipped worse than Cultists would be, since one assumes they'd want some to survive the recruitment.

Once you take away the Holy Trinity, you are down to standard weapons for these unproven Sisters. Need to earn your power armor and bolter.

It is also likely that fielding Novitiates isn't standard battle tactics. These Sister have been pressed into service before their training has been completed. You go to war with the resources you have, not the resources you need.

Which is great.
"Hey which Kill Team faction do you want to play: The veteran guardsmen? The expertly trained Tau pathfinders? The fearsome Ork Kommandos? Or... the church soldiers who didn't finish bootcamp?"

GW's really selling me on the faction as not being NPCs...

You could always kitbash The Avengers if church initiates aren't your flavour, or use the armoured SoB models that already exist.

Tau are the real NPCs here...

Rihgu wrote:

Which is great.
"Hey which Kill Team faction do you want to play: The veteran guardsmen? The expertly trained Tau pathfinders? The fearsome Ork Kommandos? Or... the church soldiers who didn't finish bootcamp?"

GW's really selling me on the faction as not being NPCs...

It's worth mentioning that by the time you would get to the Novitiate stage of selection and the Training Convents of the Adepta Sororitas...you would have already gone through the Schola Progenium and gone all the way through the training that lays the foundation for the Scions.

With that knowledge in mind?

These aren't "newbies". They're highly motivated and highly trained killers who were singled out for their faith in addition to their military skills.

Rihgu wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Spoiler:

drbored wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

drbored wrote:

 KidCthulhu wrote:
The Sisters look less like an infiltrating commando unit and more like inexperienced Sororitas-in-training who are repelling a surprise Tau panty-raid.

It really looks like they were minding their own business of prayer and training when suddenly the party was crashed by some Pathfinders. It would explain the limited arms and lack of tacti-cool gear.

There's not a ton of 'tacti-cool' gear in any of the Sisters of Battle models. They bring bolters, chainswords, and lots of purity seals.

And this kit seemingly comes with 0 Bolters, 1 Chainsword and 2 Purity Seals. The fact they're painted very much unlike Sisters for the most part, and don't wear the helmets associated with them doesn't help.

We also haven't seen the entire kit. The main 'novitiate' unit for 40k is likely autopistols and combat blades, and all the bits they're showing off are the ones designed more for Kill Team, to show a group of ladies in various phases of their specialized training.

Either way, your point doesn't bother me.

I'm not sure what's the logic behind Sisters of Battle fielding squads of recruits equipped worse than Cultists would be, since one assumes they'd want some to survive the recruitment.

Once you take away the Holy Trinity, you are down to standard weapons for these unproven Sisters. Need to earn your power armor and bolter.

It is also likely that fielding Novitiates isn't standard battle tactics. These Sister have been pressed into service before their training has been completed. You go to war with the resources you have, not the resources you need.

Which is great.
"Hey which Kill Team faction do you want to play: The veteran guardsmen? The expertly trained Tau pathfinders? The fearsome Ork Kommandos? Or... the church soldiers who didn't finish bootcamp?"

GW's really selling me on the faction as not being NPCs...

lmao. I have a funny feeling that any of those sisters could still give an Ork Kommando, veteran guardsman, or Tau Pathfinder a run for their money. They are 'relatively' novice, is my thinking. In other words, they've gotten a lot of training out of whatever Schola that they went to and now it's time for them to get real battlefield experience. Well, in the 41st millenium, you can't really throw your novices at an 'easy' battle. You send them in and if they survive 13 minutes they're likely to survive for a good long career.

It'll make it that much more hilarious when these Novitiates DO come out on top against your veteran tau pathfinders.

Also, given that this is a transparent excuse to get a new kit out, let’s wait to see if the actual list for KT that comes with the set is just the novices or if it includes options for power armoured fire teams before we criticise it for not doing so? Please?

I mean you’re right that sending a bunch of half-trained under-equipped kids alone on a long term infiltration mission is stupid on many levels. Sending them out with actual veterans for close supervision would be closer to an apprenticeship thing like the black templars do and makes more sense even if it still seems like a bad plan.

by now I guess that the SoB List in the Box will be in addition to the Compendium and not replacing it

Same like Krieg has their own list next to standard AM.

 kodos wrote:
by now I guess that the SoB List in the Box will be in addition to the Compendium and not replacing it.

Lists don’t replace lists, they are all in addition to. Admech in WD is an additional list to the one in the Compendium. This SoB list is for this kit alone.

 Galas wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

drbored wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

drbored wrote:

 KidCthulhu wrote:
The Sisters look less like an infiltrating commando unit and more like inexperienced Sororitas-in-training who are repelling a surprise Tau panty-raid.

It really looks like they were minding their own business of prayer and training when suddenly the party was crashed by some Pathfinders. It would explain the limited arms and lack of tacti-cool gear.

There's not a ton of 'tacti-cool' gear in any of the Sisters of Battle models. They bring bolters, chainswords, and lots of purity seals.

And this kit seemingly comes with 0 Bolters, 1 Chainsword and 2 Purity Seals. The fact they're painted very much unlike Sisters for the most part, and don't wear the helmets associated with them doesn't help.

We also haven't seen the entire kit. The main 'novitiate' unit for 40k is likely autopistols and combat blades, and all the bits they're showing off are the ones designed more for Kill Team, to show a group of ladies in various phases of their specialized training.

Either way, your point doesn't bother me.

I'm not sure what's the logic behind Sisters of Battle fielding squads of recruits equipped worse than Cultists would be, since one assumes they'd want some to survive the recruitment.

Space Marines and specially Black Templars have been doing it since forever and one Space Marine recruit is more logistically expensive than a Sisters of Battle neophite.

The diffrence being, the Space Marine recruits, specially Black Templars, given how we just got a new bloody version of them, wear actual armour and use actual weapons. Meanwhile, the Sisters are seemingly sending their recruits to the frontline equipped with a leather corset, thigh-high boots, and skinny jeans, like a family-friendly dominatrix. And also equipped with one of the worst guns in the entire Imperium, worse than the a Guardsman conscript or random Chaos Cultist.

The Imperium doesn't equip sisters, they are outside of the Departmento Munitorium's preview. The Ecclesiarchy has to buy the guns, and there's likely too much competition from the guard for lasguns - not to mention they might not have the same logistics chains for high tech equipment.

Who's the poster with the quote about a 12 year old Sororitas novice beating up a Primarch in their sig?

That sig may be becoming canon, if these Novitiates are considered to be "balanced" against Custodes.

It's worth mentioning that by the time you would get to the Novitiate stage of selection and the Training Convents of the Adepta Sororitas...you would have already gone through the Schola Progenium and gone all the way through the training that lays the foundation for the Scions.

With that knowledge in mind?

These aren't "newbies". They're highly motivated and highly trained killers who were singled out for their faith in addition to their military skills.

It still going to leave a pretty sour taste in the mouth when a player's elite/veteran/allowed to use full-fledged equipment killteam gets their teeth kicked in by teenagers.

Already weeping at the thought of my veterans of the long war getting shredded by Battle Sisters But Not Quite Yet.

First up, since the Mechanicus and the Eclisiarchy are not really on good terms, you can expect them to always be last in line, probably even after the Penal Legions, when it comes to the run of the mill deliveries. The Munitorum will do their best to avoid beef with the AdMech.

Apart from that, we have no indication if there might be alternative weapon options, even the veterans have access to 2 bolters after all. So it might be that they have more firepower options than we know so far. Or maybe they can call down the heavens/get resurrected etc. I doubt they will be lacking the punch to compete, so far almost all compendium lists are playable and even the WD list for Hunter Clades works.

Yes, there might be slightly cringy 'red dawn' vibe to the Sisters, but I'm willing to wait and see what their background is.

Rihgu wrote:It still going to leave a pretty sour taste in the mouth when a player's elite/veteran/allowed to use full-fledged equipment killteam gets their teeth kicked in by teenagers.

Imagine, how awful would it feel if mere mortals could beat, let alone go toe to toe, with the Mighty Space Marines, or worse yet, Custodes!

Oh, that's been possible from the start.

These Sororitas are no worse an offender than a basic Guardsman. If these would leave a "sour taste", then we should really be getting rid of Guardsmen too, right? And Tau drones too, because they're just helper robots? And Eldar Guardians, because they're just Eldar civilians with a gun, not "elite veterans"?

Sorry, I don't understand this criticism - these Sororitas novitiates are still more than a match for many of the long-term contenders in the Kill Team roster, because they're still Sororitas, much better trained than most Guardsmen. If we start banning things because "they're not supposed to be able to beat an elite/veteran force!", then what are we left with?

Already weeping at the thought of my veterans of the long war getting shredded by Battle Sisters But Not Quite Yet.

I weep at the thought of Custodes being killed by anything less than a Space Marine - a famed Custodian being killed by a human would be too much to handle.

To be clear I'm not talking about banning anything. I just think Kill Team as the "grand unveiling" of this unit is a really odd place.

"Kill Team that already exists, but is worse". That's really strange. Oh, but they're actually equal! A Sisters of Battle Novitiates squad has equal chance against a Sisters of Battle Real Squad. Great!

Love the unit, love that it opens up the setting on the tabletop, don't love it in Kill Team this way.

Rihgu wrote:
To be clear I'm not talking about banning anything. I just think Kill Team as the "grand unveiling" of this unit is a really odd place.

Ah, I see - I think for me, I've always seen Kill Team as something for these kinds of auxiliary/non-standard units, so this feels right at home for me.

"Kill Team that already exists, but is worse". That's really strange. Oh, but they're actually equal! A Sisters of Battle Novitiates squad has equal chance against a Sisters of Battle Real Squad. Great!

However, is this much worse than Guardsmen vs Veteran Guardsmen? In much the same way that Scions are supposed to have an equal chance against regular old Guardsmen, there'll *hopefully* be some way in which their differences are made clear.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/09/20/5-things-you-need-to-know-about-kill-team-chalnath/





All the while, Genestealer Cults, roving Ork warbands, and heretical cults sow mayhem throughout the civilised worlds. It’s safe to say that almost every faction has a stake somewhere in the Chalnath Expanse.

Please new miniatures for genestealer cult

I still hate the squares and circles. Literally no reason they couldn't just be in inches.

I realise that GW has no idea of how weapons actually work, and that the rules abstractions are more important, but the choice of firing modes on a railgun are hilarious

 Flinty wrote:
I realise that GW has no idea of how weapons actually work, and that the rules abstractions are more important, but the choice of firing modes on a railgun are hilarious

"Silent"

...right ^^

 GiToRaZor wrote:
First up, since the Mechanicus and the Eclisiarchy are not really on good terms, you can expect them to always be last in line, probably even after the Penal Legions, when it comes to the run of the mill deliveries. The Munitorum will do their best to avoid beef with the AdMech.

Nah, the two religions actually get on quite well. The Ecclesiarchy are constantly sending missionaries out to "lost" human worlds, and they turn up all kinds of weird tech. The Ecclesiarchy turns this straight over to the Admech, and in return gets very good rates on super-high tech gear like power armour.

They don't LIKE each other, but get a lot of mutual benefit.

Good pic of the Novitiates with "normal" weapons:


The leader lady appears to have an alternate head.

 Flinty wrote:
I realise that GW has no idea of how weapons actually work, and that the rules abstractions are more important, but the choice of firing modes on a railgun are hilarious

Subsonic ammunition is 100% a real thing.
Railguns aren't, beyond theoreticals right now.

I'd say they have a firmer grasp on things than you seem to believe.

The autogun Novitiates look decent. I still don't like the heads though, the giant forehead ornament /noseguard just looks daft. Also a bit ostentations for newbies. Isn't forehead fleur what Celestians have?

I really hope that they're troops in 40K instead of (bizarrely) elites like marine scouts.

Plot Twist: They're Fast Attack and non-Core!

I think the mix of straight mags and banana mags is weird. Some of the straight mags even look to be different length, although that could be perspective/angles.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Good pic of the Novitiates with "normal" weapons:


The leader lady appears to have an alternate head.

Finally, now they can almost go toe-to-toe with cultists.

Given the size of the leader's hat, I assume it provides a force field for the whole unit.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
I realise that GW has no idea of how weapons actually work, and that the rules abstractions are more important, but the choice of firing modes on a railgun are hilarious

Subsonic ammunition is 100% a real thing.
Railguns aren't, beyond theoreticals right now.

I'd say they have a firmer grasp on things than you seem to believe.

"Theoreticals" is pushing it a little - while there may not be working examples in service, the US Navy has done test fires of railgun systems at least as recently as 2010, while there are a whole host of amateur projects that look at it. Hacksmith Industries, for example, produced a man-portable prototype a year or two back.

zamerion wrote:

Spoiler:

Kinky! Can't wait to read the fluff for the Repentia cosplayer.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Good pic of the Novitiates with "normal" weapons:

Spoiler:

The leader lady appears to have an alternate head.

Yeah, that's better. I'll take that as a new unit for the army.

 Crimson wrote:
The autogun Novitiates look decent. I still don't like the heads though, the giant forehead ornament /noseguard just looks daft. Also a bit ostentations for newbies. Isn't forehead fleur what Celestians have?

I really hope that they're troops in 40K instead of (bizarrely) elites like marine scouts.

The fleur on the forehead is a mark of distinction. You don't have to be a Celestian to have it, but for obvious reasons it'll crop up a lot on Celestians. It's an odd choice in universe for Initiates, but I could see the designers worry that the models don't look sisterly enough need a visual tie-in. And that's the best they could think of.

Agreed on them being Troops. I'm going with that being equally likely as what happened to Scouts. It would be a great benefit to have a second Troops choice because it helps get some visual diversity in the army. On the other hand, we all know that Scouts are only Elite because GW wants to force people to play a battle company and Scouts aren't seen as fit for the Troops role because they are only temporarily joined to the company. I could very well see the same issue with Novitiates where regular Sisters are so ingrained as the core of the army that players must not be tempted to forgo them in favor of cheaper Troops.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think the mix of straight mags and banana mags is weird. Some of the straight mags even look to be different length, although that could be perspective/angles.

They might have been going for an M16 vibe with the 20 and 30 round mags. If they did, they missed the fact that the bottom plate of the 20 round mag is still angled. The guns themselves kind of remind me old armalite ARs.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
I realise that GW has no idea of how weapons actually work, and that the rules abstractions are more important, but the choice of firing modes on a railgun are hilarious

Subsonic ammunition is 100% a real thing.
Railguns aren't, beyond theoreticals right now.

I'd say they have a firmer grasp on things than you seem to believe.

One of the main reasons that the catapults on the Ford Carriers are electromagnetic instead of steam is that they can dial up or down the power for different sized aircraft.

We also know that Tau rail guns can fire multiple loads, though they took the submunitions away from the hammerhead a codex or two back.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
I realise that GW has no idea of how weapons actually work, and that the rules abstractions are more important, but the choice of firing modes on a railgun are hilarious

Subsonic ammunition is 100% a real thing.
Railguns aren't, beyond theoreticals right now.

I'd say they have a firmer grasp on things than you seem to believe.

Railguns rely on firing small things very quickly. Its the idea of subsonic railgun ammunition that I am having difficulty with, to be honest. I just get this vision of a sewing needle being propelled by a rubber band and bouncing of the target

Granted the submunitions thing. I probably just didn't think for long enough before posting.

Since the article alluded to heretical cults, dare we take that as a sign the chaos 2022 rumors may be true?

I for one like the new sisters models. A lil headswap will do them wonders.

However, if they will remain as a separate faction in KillTeam, as in, I cant haz 1 regular SoB fireteam + 1 novitiate fireteam, I aint interested in fielding these in KT.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
I realise that GW has no idea of how weapons actually work, and that the rules abstractions are more important, but the choice of firing modes on a railgun are hilarious

Subsonic ammunition is 100% a real thing.
Railguns aren't, beyond theoreticals right now.

I'd say they have a firmer grasp on things than you seem to believe.

One of the main reasons that the catapults on the Ford Carriers are electromagnetic instead of steam is that they can dial up or down the power for different sized aircraft.

We also know that Tau rail guns can fire multiple loads, though they took the submunitions away from the hammerhead a codex or two back.

Thing is, you don't need different ammo for that. Certainly not "dart" ammo (whatever that means in comparison with the regular ammo).

 Albertorius wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
I realise that GW has no idea of how weapons actually work, and that the rules abstractions are more important, but the choice of firing modes on a railgun are hilarious

Subsonic ammunition is 100% a real thing.
Railguns aren't, beyond theoreticals right now.

I'd say they have a firmer grasp on things than you seem to believe.

One of the main reasons that the catapults on the Ford Carriers are electromagnetic instead of steam is that they can dial up or down the power for different sized aircraft.

We also know that Tau rail guns can fire multiple loads, though they took the submunitions away from the hammerhead a codex or two back.

Thing is, you don't need different ammo for that. Certainly not "dart" ammo (whatever that means in comparison with the regular ammo).

It means they fire a literal tranquilizer dart really fast.

There are literally dozens of reasons why that's a stupid idea.

Looks like the sort of kit anyone should hope for.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
I realise that GW has no idea of how weapons actually work, and that the rules abstractions are more important, but the choice of firing modes on a railgun are hilarious

Subsonic ammunition is 100% a real thing.
Railguns aren't, beyond theoreticals right now.

I'd say they have a firmer grasp on things than you seem to believe.

One of the main reasons that the catapults on the Ford Carriers are electromagnetic instead of steam is that they can dial up or down the power for different sized aircraft.

We also know that Tau rail guns can fire multiple loads, though they took the submunitions away from the hammerhead a codex or two back.

Thing is, you don't need different ammo for that. Certainly not "dart" ammo (whatever that means in comparison with the regular ammo).

It means they fire a literal tranquilizer dart really fast.

There are literally dozens of reasons why that's a stupid idea.

It's not a tranq shot, right? or at least there's no rules for that I guess?. I mean, it wouldn't exactly jive with it being Silent (slower) and AP1 at the same time, but otherwise I could see that, a tranq shot being shot slower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Looks like the sort of kit anyone should hope for.

Indeed. Also, I like'em quite a bit. They will make very useful fodder for RPG minis, and Necromunda stuff.

...much more useful than the latest actual Necromunda stuff >_>

 Albertorius wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
I realise that GW has no idea of how weapons actually work, and that the rules abstractions are more important, but the choice of firing modes on a railgun are hilarious

Subsonic ammunition is 100% a real thing.
Railguns aren't, beyond theoreticals right now.

I'd say they have a firmer grasp on things than you seem to believe.

One of the main reasons that the catapults on the Ford Carriers are electromagnetic instead of steam is that they can dial up or down the power for different sized aircraft.

We also know that Tau rail guns can fire multiple loads, though they took the submunitions away from the hammerhead a codex or two back.

Thing is, you don't need different ammo for that. Certainly not "dart" ammo (whatever that means in comparison with the regular ammo).

It means they fire a literal tranquilizer dart really fast.

There are literally dozens of reasons why that's a stupid idea.

It's not a tranq shot, right? or at least there's no rules for that I guess?. I mean, it wouldn't exactly jive with it being Silent (slower) and AP1 at the same time, but otherwise I could see that, a tranq shot being shot slower.

Well, i mean, i put that badly. What i meant is that it probably fires a Tranquilizer-style dart. but without the actual, uh, stuff in it. A lawn dart, probably.

 tauist wrote:
I for one like the new sisters models. A lil headswap will do them wonders.

However, if they will remain as a separate faction in KillTeam, as in, I cant haz 1 regular SoB fireteam + 1 novitiate fireteam, I aint interested in fielding these in KT.

Agreed re the headswaps.

Interesting to see their 40k stats

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Well, i mean, i put that badly. What i meant is that it probably fires a Tranquilizer-style dart. but without the actual, uh, stuff in it. A lawn dart, probably.

That's what a regular railgun shot usually is: a penetrator and a sabot that gets discarded but helps the actual rail to accelerate the projectile (I mean, more or less ^^). But that could never be silent and deliver an effective payload (what with it killing by kinetic energy transfer and all).

It's so fast that you don't hear it till after you're dead, which means you don't hear it

Also good to see GW's days, of having game mechanics based on some of your miniatures kinkily tormenting other of your miniatures for fun and profit, are coming to a middle

Loving it all so far. It seems like Novitiates will effectively have 3 builds.

All autogun
all autopistol + blade
Kill Team variations.

Also, it's gotta suck to be a newbie and already be a penitent in training.

New chad pathfinder so awesome they're using fist to fight instead of gunbutt like the loser normal pathfinder. Also they're strong enough to even hold a sister in a chokehold (with 1 arm!!!!) is extra hillarious despite being way too short for that feat.



Miss opportunity for a dual knives wielding Pathfinder.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
It's so fast that you don't hear it till after you're dead, which means you don't hear it

Also good to see GW's days, of having game mechanics based on some of your miniatures kinkily tormenting other of your miniatures for fun and profit, are coming to a middle

So... like a laser ^^ (also, at KT discances that would be the case for all weapons).

What does Silent do, in game?

 Albertorius wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Looks like the sort of kit anyone should hope for.

Indeed. Also, I like'em quite a bit. They will make very useful fodder for RPG minis, and Necromunda stuff.

...much more useful than the latest actual Necromunda stuff >_>

While I could (and probably will) use the Novitiates-kit for Necromunda, the Outcast-kit is far more useful in the game (Scummers, Hangers-on, Juves, NPCs, cultists, brood brothers...), even if it's a bit limited on bodies. But, well, the more (low tech/light armed kits), the better.

Chopstick wrote:
New chad pathfinder so awesome they're using fist to fight instead of gunbutt like the loser normal pathfinder. Also they're strong enough to even hold a sister in a chokehold (with 1 arm!!!!) is extra hillarious despite being way too short for that feat.

Spoiler:

Um... two of them are dead and the third will be killed soon by some girls with autoguns, as they don't care about hostages or better equipment.

 Dryaktylus wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Looks like the sort of kit anyone should hope for.

Indeed. Also, I like'em quite a bit. They will make very useful fodder for RPG minis, and Necromunda stuff.

...much more useful than the latest actual Necromunda stuff >_>

While I could (and probably will) use the Novitiates-kit for Necromunda, the Outcast-kit is far more useful in the game (Scummers, Hangers-on, Juves, NPCs, cultists, brood brothers...), even if it's a bit limited on bodies. But, well, the more (low tech/light armed kits), the better.

So far, what I've seen of the outcasts sprue looks severely limited in options and variability.

drbored wrote:
Also, it's gotta suck to be a newbie and already be a penitent in training.

When your school principal knows in advance you're gonna something up big time

Killteam kits are being the best proper old school 40k kits that they are pumping with tons of options and still room for full "normal mook" 40k units.

"When i finish my training, i want to go and die as fast as reasonably possible."

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
"When i finish my training, i want to go and die as fast as reasonably possible."

Shouldn't be training the point in a sister of battle life were a bigger percentage actually commit sins and fail hard enough to become repentia?

 Albertorius wrote:

 Dryaktylus wrote:

Spoiler:

 Albertorius wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Looks like the sort of kit anyone should hope for.

Indeed. Also, I like'em quite a bit. They will make very useful fodder for RPG minis, and Necromunda stuff.

...much more useful than the latest actual Necromunda stuff >_>

While I could (and probably will) use the Novitiates-kit for Necromunda, the Outcast-kit is far more useful in the game (Scummers, Hangers-on, Juves, NPCs, cultists, brood brothers...), even if it's a bit limited on bodies. But, well, the more (low tech/light armed kits), the better.

So far, what I've seen of the outcasts sprue looks severely limited in options and variability.

With all those left-over bits from the other gangs this shouldn't be a problem. Sure, more options are always welcome, but a plastic kit for some generic underhivers you can use in multiple ways is something I appreciate. It also closes some design gaps between Cawdor, Neophytes and some of the existing hanger-ons.

 Galas wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
"When i finish my training, i want to go and die as fast as reasonably possible."

Shouldn't be training the point in a sister of battle life were a bigger percentage actually commit sins and fail hard enough to become repentia?

I assume training with the goal of sinning and becoming a repentia in mind wouldn't be seen as a particularly good choice.

12 builds for the sisters so:
1.Superior
2.Exactor
3.Penitent
4.Medic
5.Icon bearer
6.Zealous? With the laud-hailer
7.Two swords
8.Relic Mace
9.Relic Chalice
10.Condemor boltgun
11.Autogun warrior
12.Pistol and sword fighter

Unless the bottom two are just options and we've not seen a build like grenadier.

Tau have 16 operatives, but 7 of those are drones, leaving:
8.Shas'ui
9.Marksman
10.Drone controller
11.Maybe medic
12.Silenced pulse carbine/flechette special weapon
13.Grenadier?
14.Large black things guy
15.Regular Pathfinder
16.Regular Gunner with Railrifle or Ioncannon? If they let you have two railrifles.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Well, i mean, i put that badly. What i meant is that it probably fires a Tranquilizer-style dart. but without the actual, uh, stuff in it. A lawn dart, probably.

That's what a regular railgun shot usually is: a penetrator and a sabot that gets discarded but helps the actual rail to accelerate the projectile (I mean, more or less ^^). But that could never be silent and deliver an effective payload (what with it killing by kinetic energy transfer and all).

It is mathematically possible to create a shape that generates two (or more if you want to get fancy) sonic boom shockwaves in antiphase, such that they cancel out (like active noise cancellation but louder) - various aerospace engineering types have been trying to make it work on the scale of a supersonic aircraft (because people on the ground don’t like sonic booms, even less when they break windows) but they keep running into problems where the perfect shape is also either impossible to make or impossible to fly. This might be less of an issue if you don’t have to worry about fiddly little things like engines, or passengers.

 Crimson wrote:
The autogun Novitiates look decent. I still don't like the heads though, the giant forehead ornament /noseguard just looks daft. Also a bit ostentations for newbies. Isn't forehead fleur what Celestians have?

I really hope that they're troops in 40K instead of (bizarrely) elites like marine scouts.

my take on the headdress is its like a lot of "in training" uniforms: part of its purpose is to create a uniform appearance that overrides the recruits existing sense of "self" with a new one, that includes the unit as a whole. it hides old, varied distinctions of rank, caste and status form their old lives, and replaces them with a unified set of distinctions of rank, caste and status of the Sisterhood. its all part of training and melding process.


to quote Jarhead:

"You are no longer black, or brown, or yellow, or red. You are now Green! Do you understand?"

The use of a head-dress that is significantly more onerous than the regular Sisters attire is perfectly in keeping with this, creating both a clear distinction between the Novitiates and full Sisters, as well as an apparent privilege the full sisters enjoy for the Novitiates to aspire to. Sounds stupid, but when you have almost nothing thats "yours", even the littlest thing can be enough, especially if you and your peers associate that thing with a higher status (for example, schoolkids smoking because its a "adult" thing to do)


speaking form personal experience, when i went though (British) army basic training, after 7 weeks in training i was given a long weekend home with my family, and my own mother did not recognise which of the young men in uniform was her own son until i physically walked up to her and said "hi, mum".

 Albertorius wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
It's so fast that you don't hear it till after you're dead, which means you don't hear it

Also good to see GW's days, of having game mechanics based on some of your miniatures kinkily tormenting other of your miniatures for fun and profit, are coming to a middle

So... like a laser ^^ (also, at KT discances that would be the case for all weapons).

What does Silent do, in game?

It let’s you shoot when hiding. It really should have been called Sniper.

 Albertorius wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Looks like the sort of kit anyone should hope for.

Indeed. Also, I like'em quite a bit. They will make very useful fodder for RPG minis, and Necromunda stuff.

...much more useful than the latest actual Necromunda stuff >_>

I was gonna say the same thing. These are more Necromunda than most Nu-cromunda releases.

Sisters continue to have one of the best model lines.

 Galas wrote:
Killteam kits are being the best proper old school 40k kits that they are pumping with tons of options and still room for full "normal mook" 40k units.

It's too bad not everyone is getting them, poor Tau.

Meh, Pathfinders are a good kit as is. Extra options are even better... if you ignore the price hike the'll receive.

 Dryaktylus wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Dryaktylus wrote:

Spoiler:

 Albertorius wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Looks like the sort of kit anyone should hope for.

Indeed. Also, I like'em quite a bit. They will make very useful fodder for RPG minis, and Necromunda stuff.

...much more useful than the latest actual Necromunda stuff >_>

While I could (and probably will) use the Novitiates-kit for Necromunda, the Outcast-kit is far more useful in the game (Scummers, Hangers-on, Juves, NPCs, cultists, brood brothers...), even if it's a bit limited on bodies. But, well, the more (low tech/light armed kits), the better.

So far, what I've seen of the outcasts sprue looks severely limited in options and variability.

With all those left-over bits from the other gangs this shouldn't be a problem. Sure, more options are always welcome, but a plastic kit for some generic underhivers you can use in multiple ways is something I appreciate. It also closes some design gaps between Cawdor, Neophytes and some of the existing hanger-ons.

That's always good... but given how Necromunda kits are designed, there's probably not too many bits you'll be able to use with these, particularly two handed bits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
It's so fast that you don't hear it till after you're dead, which means you don't hear it

Also good to see GW's days, of having game mechanics based on some of your miniatures kinkily tormenting other of your miniatures for fun and profit, are coming to a middle

So... like a laser ^^ (also, at KT discances that would be the case for all weapons).

What does Silent do, in game?

It let’s you shoot when hiding. It really should have been called Sniper.

Ok... so, it lets you shoot from hiding and still be hiding, then? well, silent sounds ok-ish then. Not sure it fits with this particular weapon, though.

Hmm. A bit of scavenging conversion on these girls and they could do well for the currently non-existent female Cawdor gang.

Posted in the GenCon thread but:

I've seen mentioned from someone on reddit that in response to a question about the Starstriders:

Bamtrix on Reddit
This sounded like it would be the case in the talk at Gen Con. When asked if rules would be released for both factions from the rogue trader expansion, they stated it would be reprehensible if they didn't release those rules through an easy to access means. So I would expect white dwarf or WarCom.

I think we all anticipated "full" rules for the various factions previewed in the stopgap compendium book, but as someone who was looking forward to a proper Sisters Kill Team, I am disappointed. I like the aesthetic the Sisters armor has. These new models look rough. I realize that is a subjective opinion, but I have no desire to paint them. I hope Genestealer Cults, another faction I was keen to play in Kill Team, end up with better minis.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Dryaktylus wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Dryaktylus wrote:
[spoiler]

 Albertorius wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Looks like the sort of kit anyone should hope for.

...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
It's so fast that you don't hear it till after you're dead, which means you don't hear it

Also good to see GW's days, of having game mechanics based on some of your miniatures kinkily tormenting other of your miniatures for fun and profit, are coming to a middle

So... like a laser ^^ (also, at KT discances that would be the case for all weapons).

What does Silent do, in game?

It let’s you shoot when hiding. It really should have been called Sniper.

Ok... so, it lets you shoot from hiding and still be hiding, then? well, silent sounds ok-ish then. Not sure it fits with this particular weapon, though.

jmw23 wrote:
I think we all anticipated "full" rules for the various factions previewed in the stopgap compendium book.

Not really, it was to be expected that dedicated Kill Teams are coming for other factions with the new boxes, not that there will be Codex like rules (at least for now, Kill Team Codex might come in 1-2 years with a revised core rule book)

 kodos wrote:

jmw23 wrote:
I think we all anticipated "full" rules for the various factions previewed in the stopgap compendium book.

Not really, it was to be expected that dedicated Kill Teams are coming for other factions with the new boxes, not that there will be Codex like rules (at least for now, Kill Team Codex might come in 1-2 years with a revised core rule book)

My assumption would be some sort of 'Kill Team Annual' that helps compile things like White Dwarf and out-of-print box rules, like Octarius. This way, people will still be able to play with all their models and rules without needing tons of extra books and sources.

so you expect the opposite of what GW is usually doing?

It's already looking a little bit too fractured, currently to have the rules for all teams in the game you need two books (one locked in a box set) and soon that will be three. I know that not everyone needs the rules for all teams but it's not like 40K where each faction gets a whole dedicated book covering multiple units. Some of the appeal of KT is the ease of trying out Kill Teams from other factions you may not usually be interested in. Now however if you want to try out the AM or Orks you either are hampered with the 'Index' team or have to buy a box set to get a book. This will only increase as more factions get their own full Kill Teams.

Hopefully the rules will be included in with the individual releases. This would be ideal as it would me all you needed to start the game was a specific KT box of models and the rule book. As it is now the compendium is semi compulsory unless you bought Octarius.

The "books" for the advanced Kill Teams are literally in the relevant Kill Team sets from what they've said.

To GW, this is a feature-separation of stuff.

its a totally idiotic sales model by GW. Utter trash.

I think the general idea is pretty clear. Compenium is meant to get you playing with your existing 40K minis. The box sets will be a way for getting you to play the teams supplied in that particular box. Additional teams (again, just like compendium, utilizing existing 40K minis) will be covered in WD issues and probably compiled into some sorts of "Annual" books eventually.

I don't think they want you to have the rules for all factions, I think this time around GW wants you to choose your factions. Problem is, the upcoming factions will not be revealed in advance, so there's no telling when a specific faction will get their KT-specific box.

If you dont want to jump through the new hoops, play Compendium teams and forget the boxes.

I actually like this new distinction, as it seems that the tourney players prefer Compendium factions vs box set factions. The box set factions are much better suited to narrative driven garagehammer anyway.

 Gregor Samsa wrote:
its a totally idiotic sales model by GW. Utter trash.

Must be a day that ends with an 'y'

 Kanluwen wrote:

Railguns aren't beyond theoreticals right now.

I swear that I read somewhere that the US military made a real one that worked, it was just horribly impractical for actual military use at the cost and size it needed to be to work compared to investing in more conventional weaponry. I could be misremembering though, this was a while back.

 Tawnis wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Railguns aren't beyond theoreticals right now.

I swear that I read somewhere that the US military made a real one that worked, it was just horribly impractical for actual military use at the cost and size it needed to be to work compared to investing in more conventional weaponry. I could be misremembering though, this was a while back.

It really depends at what scale you mean:

 Tawnis wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Railguns aren't beyond theoreticals right now.

I swear that I read somewhere that the US military made a real one that worked, it was just horribly impractical for actual military use at the cost and size it needed to be to work compared to investing in more conventional weaponry. I could be misremembering though, this was a while back.

Yes, yes they did.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-Magnetic_Laboratory_Rail_Gun

IIRC the main issue was degradation of the barrel components.

Thousand Sons Kill team rules in the next issue of White Dwarf.

Kill Team – Operatives of Change

Yep, you guessed it – the Thousand Sons are bringing their own warp-wielding brand of warfare to Kill Team with a full rules set that enables them to get stuck in alongside all the other existing factions in the game.

With eight operatives to choose from, ranging from a Sorcerer to a Tzaangor Icon Bearer, they’ll be unleashing the wrath of Magnus on a skirmish battlefield near you soon. If you serve the Changer of the Ways, make sure you grab this issue to ready your Thousand Sons force for covert war.

Seems pretty wild. Up to 3 sorcerers! A total killteam of 11 models... phew!

Ah yes I greatly enjoy paying for zero effort content that supersedes the zero effort content I paid for 2 months ago with minor changes. We've reached a new low for what counts as ongoing support for a game.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
We've reached a new low for what counts as ongoing support for a game.

But also record profits!

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Ah yes I greatly enjoy paying for zero effort content that supersedes the zero effort content I paid for 2 months ago with minor changes. We've reached a new low for what counts as ongoing support for a game.

Models and terrain were decent, but, on the rules, the world agrees; they gak the bed....

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Ah yes I greatly enjoy paying for zero effort content that supersedes the zero effort content I paid for 2 months ago with minor changes. We've reached a new low for what counts as ongoing support for a game.

A ray of sunshine you've been on KT'21 Blackfang. Though you maybe right that this particular release supersedes the compendium, that is not true for the prior bespoke team rules.

The Imperial Guard compendium list provides a player with 2 tempting lists that Vet. Guard cannot replicate:
A. Scion/Guard mix that allows one to field two of the same special weapon;
B. Scion x2 for a stronger human force. If one is going to run a Guard x2 list , then the Vet. Guard list is absolutely better.

Greenskins allows an Ork player to play a force that reflects their favored clan better, as Kommandos very much have a Blood Axe flare to them. If one wants a shooty Bad Moons or Deathskull list, then Greenskins is the way to go. In terms of competitiveness, I do think Kommandos are simply better than Greenskins but that is just one reason people pick & play a team. But then the Kommandos have ridiculous bonuses compared to the standard ork (two better BS stat is inexplicable).

AdMech from the compendium, similarly to IG, allows one to play with:
A. 11 Skitarii allowing one to field two of the same special weapon;
B. Sicarians x2 for a stronger melee presence. Forgeworld cannot do these things. If one is going to run a mixed Skitarii/Sicarian, then the Forgeworld list is generally better.

And I'm not sure on what basis you think these things are zero effort. Outside of Custodes, most all of these faction rules have shown to be fairly well balanced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Resting One wrote:
Models and terrain were decent, but, on the rules, the world agrees; they sh1te the bed....

Not sure on what world you reside, but I have seen nothing but praise for KT'21's ruleset (outside of a few voices on Dakka). After having played several games, I am in agreement. Best miniatures ruleset GW has released in the last 21 years, barely edging out Titanicus.

This is fantastic. When people ask why I refuse to play GW games it always becomes a protracted good rules vs bad rules argument. But GW is making it easy to move the gaming discussion to a more economics/social/political platform. People tend to flee from those who project cancel culture on things so thank you for the evil empire financial practices support to shut down useless topics.

 Tokhuah wrote:
This is fantastic. When people ask why I refuse to play GW games it always becomes a protracted good rules vs bad rules argument. But GW is making it easy to move the gaming discussion to a more economics/social/political platform. People tend to flee from those who project cancel culture on things so thank you for the evil empire financial practices support to shut down useless topics.

...okay?

Green skin with army wide 5+ BS is straight up hard mode and worse in comparison to Octarius Kommando with 4+ BS, charge from conceal special rule, can bring 3 vastly superior gunners than anything Greenskin can field, unless the Greenskin player spent EP to get the targeting fin while the Octarius Kommando player are free from the "tax" to choose anything they want. Greenskin "big" shoota is also a completely worthless weapon.

But wait, there're more... Octarius kommando have 2 melee specialist and more (better) tactical ploys.

The major issue that I have with a lot of the rules coming out in other sources, like the Octarius book and the White Dwarfs, is that we don't know if GW will re-print those things elsewhere.

I can *speculate* that there may be a compendium that will combine all of these disparate rules into one single book, but GW wont tell us if it's going to happen, since they want us to buy each individual publication up until that book comes out, and if they say 'yeah, eventually all of this will be combined together', then there's less motivation to buy those publications.

Now, I'm a White Dwarf collector ever since they started their new system back in the beginning of 8th. Big fan of the painting showcases and tutorials, and some of the lore, so getting rules and tear-outs is just a nice bonus. I also know that if any of my friends need Kill Team rules from a White Dwarf that I have, I'll happily scan it and send it over to them so they can play with the rules that they want, if they can't get them another way.

Still, it's tough... Like, on the one hand, yeah the game is getting steady support, and if you're already collecting things like Thousand Sons or Adeptus Mechanicus, then taking the rules from White Dwarf to get more options for Kill Team makes it a no-brainer to get. That said, the Octarius rules are already gone, you could only get that book in that one box set, so even when they sell the Krieg and Kommandos separately, getting access to the rules will be tougher if you didn't get that Octarius book. I suspect the same will happen with the upcoming box sets for Kill Team, like Chalnath.

Again, can only really speculate that these things will be combined, and when they are, we'll get a slew of complaints of "GW released all these rules separately and now they're MAKING US PAY AGAIN". If I were you, I would wait until that compendium comes out, I just can't guarantee that it will, which is the crux of the issue.

I just got the Barnes&Noble 40K: Fireteam boardgame, which is KT21 lite, and was surprised to see that in addition to the SM and Necrons of the box, it also includes rules and stats for Orks, Tau, Eldar and IG teams. All of them are very specific wargear builds of specific boxes: Ork Nobs, Eldar Harlequins, Tau Stealth Suits and IG Tempestus Scions, but honestly with the crapshow the KT'21 rules releases are turning into, I think I might just stick with Fireteam

It's aggravating how easy they made it to expand Fireteam with just a few off the shelf unit boxes, compared to the utter rediculous rulebook/templates/stat cards decisions GW made for starting out with KT'21

The understanding currently is that the DKoK and Kommando boxes will actually be including the profile cards.

@kalmadea specific build of existing boxes, or a clue as to future Killteam special box releases (either new or addon sprues)

 lasgunpacker wrote:
@kalmadea specific build of existing boxes, or a clue as to future Killteam special box releases (either new or addon sprues)

Specific build of the existing boxes. you can download the rulebook from GW's Fireteam website and on page 14 & 15 of the PDF it shows you the other teams, you'd want to build the models to match the picture. The stat cards in the game are specific to those weapon loadouts, no options to give them different gear even if there are the pieces for it in the unit boxes. Won't be a satisfactory experience for people really into KT, but it's perfect for my old warhammer buddies that have moved almost exclusively to boardgames.

It really feels to me like they wanted to go the Underworlds route with this release: solid rule set, with boxed factions being released every few months. It feels like they didn't really want to support existing models at all, but felt like they had to as that's part of what "Kill Team" as a brand is meant to be.

So we have this middle ground with a bunch of boring rules for existing factions (being re-written in White Dwarf) with the focus being on the boxes.

It's a board game release model. A big main box with two starter factions and enough terrain (Octarius) and then regular expansions every three months with different terrain and more factions. In isolation, it's a reasonable release model. In a year you'll have 8 factions each with some fairly unique rules that can fight in a bunch of different places. It's a nice self-contained game.

The problem occurs in half-heartedly trying to make it more than that. This happened with Underworlds early on, people annoyed there were no rules for existing minis to work as Warbands, but people quickly adapted to enjoying it for what it was. But KT is in this middle ground where they've decided to release rules for existing factions, but they're not very good, and that's actually having a negative impact on the game.

Rihgu wrote:
Seems pretty wild. Up to 3 sorcerers! A total killteam of 11 models... phew!

Yes, but not as many as you might think. After the first Sorcerer, the Astartes all take the place of 2 of the 11 models. That means you can get 6 Astartes in your list with nothing else. That is one more than in the Compendium list, which makes me think the Sorcerer is not a good as the Aspiring Sorcerer.

Still an interesting list that makes me realize how badly GW missed on some of the list construction rules.

 alextroy wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
Seems pretty wild. Up to 3 sorcerers! A total killteam of 11 models... phew!

Yes, but not as many as you might think. After the first Sorcerer, the Astartes all take the place of 2 of the 11 models. That means you can get 6 Astartes in your list with nothing else. That is one more than in the Compendium list, which makes me think the Sorcerer is not a good as the Aspiring Sorcerer.

Still an interesting list that makes me realize how badly GW missed on some of the list construction rules.

But that's the thing, the compendium is the 'Index' and all the fun, more interesting stuff will be coming out over time.

Chopstick wrote:
Green skin with army wide 5+ BS is straight up hard mode and worse in comparison to Octarius Kommando with 4+ BS, charge from conceal special rule, can bring 3 vastly superior gunners than anything Greenskin can field, unless the Greenskin player spent EP to get the targeting fin while the Octarius Kommando player are free from the "tax" to choose anything they want. Greenskin "big" shoota is also a completely worthless weapon.

But wait, there're more... Octarius kommando have 2 melee specialist and more (better) tactical ploys.

You are absolutely right. Nonetheless, the Blood Axe vibe to the Kommandos would easily lead a Bad Moon or Deathskull player toward using the Greenskin list.

I don't really understand why people are upset about a new game getting support from GW. You don't actually have to buy any of the stuff you don't need, and from what I've hard on the tourney front, seems like the Compendium teams rule the meta anyway.. The rest is stuff more juicy stuff for us garagehammer stinky casuals

 tauist wrote:
I don't really understand why people are upset about a new game getting support from GW.

Because this "support" comes in the form of added content that can only be added because it was left out of the initial release. There were no new models released for the AdMech or Ksons since the Compendium. Anything they put in WD for them now could have already been in the Compendium.

The Compendium is larger than the rule book. The compendium lists are made for easy on ramping of the game particularly newcomers to it. These additional lists are clearly the alternative path that GW didn’t take. These are the last version 2-3 box kill teams that GW wanted to avoid. These are great for people who have played before, but really muddy the waters for most others

This isn’t stuff left out of the Compendium, but an alternate cut and I’m glad to actually have a reason to buy White Dwarf again.

 tauist wrote:
I don't really understand why people are upset about a new game getting support from GW. You don't actually have to buy any of the stuff you don't need, and from what I've hard on the tourney front, seems like the Compendium teams rule the meta anyway.. The rest is stuff more juicy stuff for us garagehammer stinky casuals

A lot of us are still pretty irritated they killed off Kill Team 1, which we liked, for this game with the same name but little in common in terms of structure and being able to design your own teams. So them dishing out endless variations on teams rather than just going back to points feels a bit insult to injury.

 The Phazer wrote:

 tauist wrote:
I don't really understand why people are upset about a new game getting support from GW. You don't actually have to buy any of the stuff you don't need, and from what I've hard on the tourney front, seems like the Compendium teams rule the meta anyway.. The rest is stuff more juicy stuff for us garagehammer stinky casuals

A lot of us are still pretty irritated they killed off Kill Team 1, which we liked

In the nicest possible way, I had no idea that Kill Team 1 had any fans at all. With the endless elite and hero expansions it just became slightly modified Bighammer in the end.

 Chairman Aeon wrote:
The Compendium is larger than the rule book. The compendium lists are made for easy on ramping of the game particularly newcomers to it. These additional lists are clearly the alternative path that GW didn’t take. These are the last version 2-3 box kill teams that GW wanted to avoid. These are great for people who have played before, but really muddy the waters for most others

This isn’t stuff left out of the Compendium, but an alternate cut and I’m glad to actually have a reason to buy White Dwarf again.

The Kill Team starter set has the high-complexity Veterans and Kommandos.

The low-complexity Compendium is aimed at players with existing collections.

GW appreciates the mental gymnastics you make on their behalf tho

 Nerbil wrote:

In the nicest possible way, I had no idea that Kill Team 1 had any fans at all. With the endless elite and hero expansions it just became slightly modified Bighammer in the end.

Fair enough, but aside from GW's continually dwindling support for the edition, and Commanders, it has always been popular with 40K players, and well regarded by the greater tabletop community.

I agree things are a bit awkward right now. Would still rather have the WD content though; the alternative isn't getting it in the compendium, the alternative is not getting it at all. But it also does little to address the problems people have.

SamusDrake wrote:

 Nerbil wrote:

In the nicest possible way, I had no idea that Kill Team 1 had any fans at all. With the endless elite and hero expansions it just became slightly modified Bighammer in the end.

Fair enough, but aside from GW's continually dwindling support for the edition, and Commanders, it has always been popular with 40K players, and well regarded by the greater tabletop community.

It always felt like Kill Team has more of an online following and it's more converters/modelers. It's hard to get leagues and the like running without a "comp" setup going, in my experience.

 The Phazer wrote:

 tauist wrote:
I don't really understand why people are upset about a new game getting support from GW. You don't actually have to buy any of the stuff you don't need, and from what I've hard on the tourney front, seems like the Compendium teams rule the meta anyway.. The rest is stuff more juicy stuff for us garagehammer stinky casuals

A lot of us are still pretty irritated they killed off Kill Team 1, which we liked, for this game with the same name but little in common in terms of structure and being able to design your own teams. So them dishing out endless variations on teams rather than just going back to points feels a bit insult to injury.

KT18 is still a viable game with a decent amount of content. I really liked it too, and before KT21 was announced, I would have been happy to just keep on playing it. But now that KT21 is out, I prefer this new edition of the game, and like it more than KT18 even when it means I can't field the same sort of teams I could still field in KT18 with all the expansions.

 Kanluwen wrote:

It always felt like Kill Team has more of an online following and it's more converters/modelers. It's hard to get leagues and the like running without a "comp" setup going, in my experience.

The customization of the models and lists was definitely a hit with players.

For certainly the last year or two, even the local gaming clubs and stores have been closed to any tournaments. Its only now that things are starting to go back to normal. It also didn't help that 9th edition moved things forward and Kill Team was left behind, Pariah Nexus left far too late in the day to matter. Oh, and GW throwing "Combat Patrol" around as if it were an amazing brand new game that made Kill Team redundant.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

The Kill Team starter set has the high-complexity Veterans and Kommandos.

The low-complexity Compendium is aimed at players with existing collections.

You got half of that right...

 lord_blackfang wrote:
GW appreciates the mental gymnastics you make on their behalf tho

Since I lived through the evolution of Rogue Trader to Warhammer 40,000 2E through White Dwarfs this really is much nicer--getting alternate takes of a game I like in a magazine that was very easy to ignore for most of the last two decades. No gymnastics needed. I just hope you find yourself in a better place and don't feel the need to drop all your negativity on a hobby board. Peace out man.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/#kill-team

Finally Errata and Designers' Commentary for Kill Team.
Biggest change for the meta Custodes now have APL3.

Wow I'm surprised they dropped them to APL 4 so soon! I've only had a chance to play the new Kill Team three times, I enjoyed playing Custodes but I never felt like I was stomping my opponent. Guess I wasn't playing them to their full potential.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/10/20/why-are-the-tau-and-imperials-fighting-over-the-vedik-system-kill-team-chalnath-has-answers/

Nothing special, short version:
- Background for Vedik System: Backwater Planet left to starve by the Imperium seceedes to the Tau. Sororitas arrive in Orbit by accident and go flamer, death, kill crazy. Resulting in the Tau being driven off. Shadowsun (who for reasons unknown to me is still alive) sends reinforcements. In the meantime Sororitas Novitiates duke it out in the underground with Infiltrators.

- Book has nine Missions

- Both Teams are supposed to get Rules for 40K "shortly after"

(who for reasons unknown to me is still alive)

Apparently the Tau stick their important commanders into stasis until narratively appropriate moments arrive.

They can just tell when the camera is on.

Don't they also have all of their commanders in AI chips that they can plug into people? Might not be the real Shadowsun, could be a T'au commander with her chip.

 GiToRaZor wrote:
Shadowsun (who for reasons unknown to me is still alive)

Because the model is still for sale, duh!

People take fictional worlds a bit too seriously. Also, many of us don't read GW fiction and don't care if it's canon or not. "Can I take it in my army" is much more important than, "what is the current day in the Imperium and is <insert special character here> still alive or even born yet."

Rihgu wrote:
Don't they also have all of their commanders in AI chips that they can plug into people? Might not be the real Shadowsun, could be a T'au commander with her chip.

They have engrams of the really important ones, yes.

But Voss is also correct. They keep the important ones in cryogenic stasis--waking them up when necessary.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
Don't they also have all of their commanders in AI chips that they can plug into people? Might not be the real Shadowsun, could be a T'au commander with her chip.

They have engrams of the really important ones, yes.

But Voss is also correct. They keep the important ones in cryogenic stasis--waking them up when necessary.

I mean there is preparing for the last war, and then there is actually staffing your military with people who fought the last war

And here was me thinking that the Tau were the one (non-tyranid) dynamic race still evolving their systems...

I was looking at the new novitiates models again and now I can't unsee that the models look like a Blood Bowl team more than something out of the ole 40,000 AD!

Maybe its the helmet

 Flinty wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
Don't they also have all of their commanders in AI chips that they can plug into people? Might not be the real Shadowsun, could be a T'au commander with her chip.

They have engrams of the really important ones, yes.

But Voss is also correct. They keep the important ones in cryogenic stasis--waking them up when necessary.

I mean there is preparing for the last war, and then there is actually staffing your military with people who fought the last war

And here was me thinking that the Tau were the one (non-tyranid) dynamic race still evolving their systems...

Short lifespans and the promise of future progress worked just fine when the setting was 999.M41 and nobody needed to answer what would happen a year, ten years or a hundred years later. Doesn't work so well anymore with both the ongoing story approach and presenting characters as super heroes who can't die (because what will become of the models then? Think of the horror of using a canonically dead character!)

But don't worry, GW would have you believe Tau are an alliance of various species, too, and spent the last fifteen years proving it by releasing more mecha...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tauist wrote:
I was looking at the new novitiates models again and now I can't unsee that the models look like a Blood Bowl team more than something out of the ole 40,000 AD!

Maybe its the helmet

Frankly I would have thought Sisters of Sigmar were an easier thing to get from looking at the models. After all they follow the trusted Imperial design of mashing together medieval fantasy and sci-fi elements. Only in this case the models are missing a lot of the latter, so all that's left is the fantasy nun look.

They're notably missing the angled arm and clenched fist look that is so widespread among Blood Bowl models.

But maybe that's just me.

Seems there's been literally hundreds of in-lore years since the Tyranids or the T'au, the supposedly evolving and progressing races did any of the either, eh?

Chairman Aeon wrote:

 GiToRaZor wrote:
Shadowsun (who for reasons unknown to me is still alive)

Because the model is still for sale, duh!

Yup. She just got a new primarisized super deluxe $$$ version to replace the little metal one.

Voss wrote:

(who for reasons unknown to me is still alive)

Apparently the Tau stick their important commanders into stasis until narratively appropriate moments arrive.

They can just tell when the camera is on.

The drones all have a little red light that is on when recording. Admech versions keep getting gummed up with melted wax.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Seems there's been literally hundreds of in-lore years since the Tyranids or the T'au, the supposedly evolving and progressing races did any of the either, eh?

They realized the multi-century timeskip cause problems and ret-conned it. We're only decades after fall of Cadia now afaik (though maybe a lore-junky can correct me on that?). That said the warp messes with time so some areas could have had more or less time passing.

 Chairman Aeon wrote:

 GiToRaZor wrote:
Shadowsun (who for reasons unknown to me is still alive)

Because the model is still for sale, duh!

People take fictional worlds a bit too seriously. Also, many of us don't read GW fiction and don't care if it's canon or not. "Can I take it in my army" is much more important than, "what is the current day in the Imperium and is <insert special character here> still alive or even born yet."

Well that is good for you and I hope you are having fun. For me personally (I know, the horrors of people daring to have other opinions), I do enjoy suspension of disbelief. Btw. I never said something about me going to your private game night, crashing the door in, stating that you can't field the miniature because the character could not be canonically be in your fictious battle and then stomp of under the hymns of Rule Britannia. I hope you catch the sarcasm. But then I dread that people like that might exist.

There has been a long history of Models being dead in the canon and stating them would make me look feverishly older than I am already. Also it used to be that you could field a model under the rules of epic hero xyz, it just happened that your dudes/gals had by coincidence generated the same character load out. Or in the event of anything weird, it was just the warp, works for me. But to have a character there canonically forever (Shadowsun gained her position for the third expansion, we are at the fifth now and there are supposed to be decades in between them) is working quite against my suspension of disbelief. I can get on with the personality AI chip, that is similar to the Eldar for many time and canonical death circumstances. Quite the solution to the problem, I wish they would make it more prominent though. Because a society of dead people AIs blasting from 15m high holograms, telling the general populace what they got to do, while inevitably deteriorating. Now that would be magnificently grimdark.

 GiToRaZor wrote:

For me personally, I do enjoy suspension of disbelief. Btw.

And I unsarcastically ask you why you like 40K.

My point still stands that most people at a table don't know who is alive or what the exact date the game is being played on. You don't have to come all the way to my house to see this.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Seems there's been literally hundreds of in-lore years since the Tyranids or the T'au, the supposedly evolving and progressing races did any of the either, eh?

They realized the multi-century timeskip cause problems and ret-conned it. We're only decades after fall of Cadia now afaik (though maybe a lore-junky can correct me on that?). That said the warp messes with time so some areas could have had more or less time passing.

Yep.

8th started with the end of the Indomitus Crusade two centuries or whatever after Guilliman revival. But that was retconned. Now the Indomitus Crusade is ongoing.

Is a complete mess and I'm probably citting stuff wrong, but basically they back pedaled in the advancing the timeline a couple centuries.

 Galas wrote:

8th started with the end of the Indomitus Crusade two centuries or whatever after Guilliman revival. But that was retconned. Now the Indomitus Crusade is ongoing.

Is a complete mess and I'm probably citting stuff wrong, but basically they back pedaled in the advancing the timeline a couple centuries.

Which was comically stupid, BTW. Two centuries is about right time for galactic crusade, for primaris to be integrated fully into most chapters, and for newly founded Ultima chapters to finally have captains and veterans of their own. Now? In an attempt to appease people screeching about timeline, GW made much bigger mess and far bigger problems. Eight years is not enough time for a regular IoM crusade, never mind Indomitus scale one!

And it's not like there isn't a precedent for the original timeline, either, Ciaphas Cain books are set three centuries into M42 and no one complained...

 Irbis wrote:

 Galas wrote:

8th started with the end of the Indomitus Crusade two centuries or whatever after Guilliman revival. But that was retconned. Now the Indomitus Crusade is ongoing.

Is a complete mess and I'm probably citting stuff wrong, but basically they back pedaled in the advancing the timeline a couple centuries.

Which was comically stupid, BTW. Two centuries is about right time for galactic crusade, for primaris to be integrated fully into most chapters, and for newly founded Ultima chapters to finally have captains and veterans of their own. Now? In an attempt to appease people screeching about timeline, GW made much bigger mess and far bigger problems. Eight years is not enough time for a regular IoM crusade, never mind Indomitus scale one!

And it's not like there isn't a precedent for the original timeline, either, Ciaphas Cain books are set three centuries into M42 and no one complained...

I agree with every word. That retcon is stupid even for GW.

I don't feel like I know enough to make the call. We don't even know how much time passed between fall of Cadia and the great rift opening, or how long it took for the great rift to open, or when the Indomitus Crusade happens relative to those.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I don't feel like I know enough to make the call. We don't even know how much time passed between fall of Cadia and the great rift opening, or how long it took for the great rift to open, or when the Indomitus Crusade happens relative to those.

I don't think we're going to find out, either. To my knowledge GW has abandoned precise time lines in favor of ages with AoS 1st ed and 40k 8th ed and has not gone back on that decision.

Given that the Indomitus situation is somewhat exceptional in that it provides some sense of timing, and because of changing information apparently also provides clear evidence of a retcon, I expect this will only reinforce the background writers' current approach of being wary of pinning anything down for fear of being held accountable for errors and inconsistencies.

Yeah, I think the approach to using 'blocks' of time rather than precise dates works much better.

"Yeah, I think the approach to using 'blocks' of time rather than precise dates works much better."

Yes, GW is not known for precision or consistency.

It's Friday.... c'mon.....I couldn't resist..

From Lexicanum, because I wanted to know exactly what happened here:

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Indomitus_Crusade

Originally as outlined in the Dark Imperium novel series, the Indomitus Crusade lasted roughly 100 years and ended with the Plague Wars. However in 2021 Black Library retconned the events of the novels to take place only 12 years after the Crusade had begun and no known end-date is currently set.

Essentialy Haley wanted to have references between his Dark Imperium and Dawn of Fire series, so he altered the timeline to make less narrative sense, but fit what he wanted to do better

I'm not sure that one person would have the power to alter the direction of 40k like that, least of which a BL writer.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm not sure that one person would have the power to alter the direction of 40k like that, least of which a BL writer.

Couldn't agree more !

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm not sure that one person would have the power to alter the direction of 40k like that, least of which a BL writer.

Properly phrased that should read "I really, desperately hope that any one person wouldn't have the power to alter the direction of 40k like that, least of which a Black Library writer."

Because it's hard to put it past GW to actually work like that.

Well, everything that is not in the current Codex book is not considered canon for GW anyway

there is no one who guides the direction things are going, just writers who get a guideline what need to be covered and with the next Edition things changes anyway


actually there should be 1 person with the power to do it, but I fear that there is none, hence there is also none checking what is going on with the fluff at all

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm not sure that one person would have the power to alter the direction of 40k like that, least of which a BL writer.

*shrug* That's what Haley says in the interview referenced in the Lexicanum article.

This isn't the craziest setting-altering thing to come out of Black Library by a looong shot.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
This isn't the craziest setting-altering thing to come out of Black Library by a looong shot.

The Horus Heresy novel which brings the Hive Mind's attention to this galaxy, for example.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
This isn't the craziest setting-altering thing to come out of Black Library by a looong shot.

The Horus Heresy novel which brings the Hive Mind's attention to this galaxy, for example.

My go-to is always the time travel implications hidden away in Devourer. The whole setting only exists because Necrons are morons, apparently.

Anyone wanting to hear some crazy, ill-thought fluff reveals should listen to Malcador by LJ Goulding, prime example of why all fluff should be disregarded as canon at will.

 kodos wrote:
Well, everything that is not in the current Codex book is not considered canon for GW anyway

there is no one who guides the direction things are going, just writers who get a guideline what need to be covered and with the next Edition things changes anyway


actually there should be 1 person with the power to do it, but I fear that there is none, hence there is also none checking what is going on with the fluff at all

There should definitely be someone with oversight, but I don't think giving them the power to change things at a whim is any more desirable than to give that power to someone who's lower in the hierarchy. The challenge with a stable of creatives is to unify their works. Change isn't a bad thing per se and the goal is to steadily expand the background. But you need someone in a position of authority to rein the creatives in and veto changes that don't mesh. Possibly even a full team so that power doesn't rest with any single person and to prevent their biases from becoming too influential.

I don't get the impression GW works with that kind of managerial oversight, or anything even approaching that for that matter.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
This isn't the craziest setting-altering thing to come out of Black Library by a looong shot.

The Horus Heresy novel which brings the Hive Mind's attention to this galaxy, for example.

My go-to is always the time travel implications hidden away in Devourer. The whole setting only exists because Necrons are morons, apparently.

Good thing GW retconned Necrons into Saturday morning cartoon villains ten years ago, eh? I don't know what you're referring to, but you sure make it sound like it's a good fit for modern Necron background.

If we assume the novel series happens as a prequel to 8th/9th edition the timeline works out reasonably well. Or at least as well as it could given the context.

@Necrons are morons, yeah they were morons even before the retcon. Kind of the ole 'a person is smart, but people are dumb' thing.

GW is in the business of pushing plastic to middle class nerds, not storytelling through a carefully curated multimedia narrative. The books exist to help push plastic and keep peoples minds stuck in their money-making machine. The powers that be aren't actually interested in the narrative or ensuring continuity or cohesion, etc. 40k is not Star Wars, GW is not Lucasfilm

I can totally imagine it.

Another lore writer had it in is head that "Indomitus ends with Plague Wars and lasts 100 years", probably thinking that what they would do is fill in the space between the Indomitus Crusade beginning and the Plague Wars ending. In a way, this is how they handled writing the Horus Heresy series. We've known for a long time where the Horus Heresy ends and where it begins, and so the mystery is in the middle.

Then, Guy Haley comes along and says he wants to write events after the Plague Wars and since so many ideas were likely still pretty fresh at the time, they went ahead and slid a little retcon in there, scrapping the idea to 'fill the middle' and having the Indomitus Crusade and Plague Wars be the beginning and then they'll just continue the story outwards from there.

In a committee sort of setting, I could totally see this happening.

 Geifer wrote:
Properly phrased that should read "I really, desperately hope that any one person wouldn't have the power to alter the direction of 40k like that, least of which a Black Library writer."

Because it's hard to put it past GW to actually work like that.

See Phil Kelly and his retcon of Riptides (which until then were late 3rd sphere walker design copied from Imperial Knights sightings) into something actually predating Tau-IoM contact in his utterly garbage Farsight book series (alongside Inquisitors having no idea what daemons are). Maybe someone should give him a memo early Tau always used mechanized conventional forces, grav tanks/transports/light infantry, for majority of their existence and their battlesuits (all of them, never mind very late designs like Riptides) are a relatively late design itself implied to be a copy of Imperial designs. They are developing race, not 'we always had everything' Eldar types. And this is the dude GW put in charge of 40K lore...

Chalnath up for pre-order next week

 Dysartes wrote:
Chalnath up for pre-order next week

We don't have a price for Chalnath yet, do we? Would be nice if it was under £100.

Price will probably come out early-to-mid-week, as independents start to get their order sheets.

chaos0xomega wrote:
GW is in the business of pushing plastic to middle class nerds, not storytelling through a carefully curated multimedia narrative. The books exist to help push plastic and keep peoples minds stuck in their money-making machine. The powers that be aren't actually interested in the narrative or ensuring continuity or cohesion, etc. 40k is not Star Wars, GW is not Lucasfilm

If you think star wars and lucasfilm isn't and hasn't nearly always been a thing that exists to make money, then I have an Ewok tm Village Playset to sell you.

I was hoping we'd get a release for the DKK and kommandos by the time the second Kill Team set dropped, but oh well.

I wonder if the novice arms will work on a full battle sister? Might be a good way customize some of the more generic heroes, like giving the mace to a sister to make a not terrible looking domata. The hospitalier in training is already perfect, though I imagine you'll have to give her the same sized base as the standard model

 GaroRobe wrote:
I was hoping we'd get a release for the DKK and kommandos by the time the second Kill Team set dropped, but oh well.

I wouldn't be shocked if there might be some kind of holdup on the DKK/Kommando setups. Don't forget that they'll also be in the actual starter set too.

 Dysartes wrote:
Chalnath up for pre-order next week

It just had to be the week after the Great Gang Stronghold Scare of '21, didn't it?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Chalnath up for pre-order next week

It just had to be the week after the Great Gang Stronghold Scare of '21, didn't it?

With limited Gang Strongholds to go around, the Tau and Sisters have to fight over them, so they don't fall prey to the Gang Stronghold Gap!

 the_scotsman wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
GW is in the business of pushing plastic to middle class nerds, not storytelling through a carefully curated multimedia narrative. The books exist to help push plastic and keep peoples minds stuck in their money-making machine. The powers that be aren't actually interested in the narrative or ensuring continuity or cohesion, etc. 40k is not Star Wars, GW is not Lucasfilm

If you think star wars and lucasfilm isn't and hasn't nearly always been a thing that exists to make money, then I have an Ewok tm Village Playset to sell you.

You've missed the point. Lucasfilm/Star Wars is in the business of selling stories. Lucasfilm does not design or manufacture a single toy, model kit, or any other consumer good. The company exists solely to create, write, and develop films (and once upon a time also video games) and provide narrative oversight to independent authors writing novels/comics. With Lucasfilm, story is first, the toys and merchandise exists to support that. With GW, the toys and merchandise is first, and the story exists to support those goods.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
GW is in the business of pushing plastic to middle class nerds, not storytelling through a carefully curated multimedia narrative. The books exist to help push plastic and keep peoples minds stuck in their money-making machine. The powers that be aren't actually interested in the narrative or ensuring continuity or cohesion, etc. 40k is not Star Wars, GW is not Lucasfilm

If you think star wars and lucasfilm isn't and hasn't nearly always been a thing that exists to make money, then I have an Ewok tm Village Playset to sell you.

You've missed the point. Lucasfilm/Star Wars is in the business of selling stories. Lucasfilm does not design or manufacture a single toy, model kit, or any other consumer good. The company exists solely to create, write, and develop films (and once upon a time also video games) and provide narrative oversight to independent authors writing novels/comics. With Lucasfilm, story is first, the toys and merchandise exists to support that. With GW, the toys and merchandise is first, and the story exists to support those goods.

I would argue that GW seems to make its money on the codex's more so then the kits, considering how many they put out there and how often.

Meh, framing it that way is just so oversimplified.

 Ohman wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Chalnath up for pre-order next week

We don't have a price for Chalnath yet, do we? Would be nice if it was under £100.

Does it contain a core rulebook, does anyone know?

 privateer4hire wrote:

 Ohman wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Chalnath up for pre-order next week

We don't have a price for Chalnath yet, do we? Would be nice if it was under £100.

Does it contain a core rulebook, does anyone know?

It doesn't seem to. There's just the Chalnath book.

Octarius likely included the Core book since it was a bundle for the game's new edition.