Teaser to the Novitiates (I always have to copy paste that word) Killteam. Their unique trait is faith points, (I know quel surprise!). I like the theme though, blowing up in your opponents face and claimining they are mortally wounded by the martyrdom of their bursting bone splinters, whipping your own troops into frenzy instead of just giving them one extra APL. I hope they found a good solution to handle the likely meagre damage output of the Auto Rifles (my money is on 2/3 just like Las Rifles). I haven't seen anything carrying a special weapon so far, but that Eviscerator sure looks dangerous. Considering the amount of relics they are carrying around, they do a good job following in the steps of the overly pompus/baroques SoB at least on a visual level.
If everything fails, they'll still be able to count as Bible Black squad. Please excuse the degenerecy
Shame they repeated the datasheet for the whippy Novitiate and only posted cut down (and I think at least partially known) information on the naughty Novitiate. Suspicious me can't help but think they're embarrassed to show what the flavor text on the datasheet has to say about the Repentia cosplayer.
Not sure I agree with the article on how fantastic the Superior's hats are, but at least they have the same ball joints as other Sister heads for easy replacement.
Faith points? Not sure I like where this is heading, smells like rules bloatitis in the making. Woulda been better if they had just used CPs like every other faction, pretty sure you could have made similar things to work without resorting to yet another set of points to keep track of.
The pathfinder article sounded more interesting to me. The Chalnath book and one pathfinder upgrade sprue might be in the cards for me, or even the full pathfinder team if I need two sets & 1 upgrade spue for all the options.
One other thing which concerns me are the Chalnath specific missions. That box has practically no scatter terrain, and it is probable that the included missions will only feature the terrain that came with the box, which sounds super bland. So not sure that even the book is worth.
I can't say I'm hugely impressed that the only official way to get hold of rules to go though doors seems to be to buy an otherwise irrelevant to me £110 box set.
The Phazer wrote: I can't say I'm hugely impressed that the only official way to get hold of rules to go though doors seems to be to buy an otherwise irrelevant to me £110 box set.
I guess there's an entry fee?
I know. That was awful. I'm not a fan of it being in there either...but it makes me curious if there's going to be a "campaign pack" or something coming for KT.
The community article also heralds the introduction of the scaleable rule, for terrain with that trait you round down CIRCLE instead of up when climbing.... a rule that was introduced in the last Errata.
Dont know if that means we should expect hatches and doors by Errata again, or that was all we were getting. Seems odd that we got Scaleable but not the others, was that keyword hidden somewhere else in the rule book and ive just not spotted it?
The Phazer wrote: I can't say I'm hugely impressed that the only official way to get hold of rules to go though doors seems to be to buy an otherwise irrelevant to me £110 box set.
Totally this. I’m an SOB fan, love more Sector Imperialis terrain, meh on Tau, and decided to skip this box. Now, they are drip-feeding terrain rules which sound great, should have been in the core book, and I want to have them, but to do so I have to flip my decision from “skip”, to “buy”? I get that it’s my choice, and no-one is twisting my arm for me to open my wallet, but, hell, really? “Here are some great, functional, thematic rules, we just saved up to make you buy another box!”
They've probably just killed the game with this move to be honest, it's not as if it is hugely popular as it is, but I imagine a vast majority of people will choose to leave it now.
You also know there is some clause attached to the doors etc in terms of when and who can use them.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: They've probably just killed the game with this move to be honest, it's not as if it is hugely popular as it is, but I imagine a vast majority of people will choose to leave it now.
You also know there is some clause attached to the doors etc in terms of when and who can use them.
Surely primaris won't be able to use them, unless they're bigger than the ones on a LR
endlesswaltz123 wrote: They've probably just killed the game with this move to be honest, it's not as if it is hugely popular as it is, but I imagine a vast majority of people will choose to leave it now.
You also know there is some clause attached to the doors etc in terms of when and who can use them.
Surely primaris won't be able to use them, unless they're bigger than the ones on a LR
Imagine a space marine (or nearly any unit with hands modelled) not being able to open a door and crouch down to get through it
However, you are most likely 100% correct with the restrictions, they will probably not make sense (if there are any)
Kind of curious that doors have a special passage about base size and hatches don't. Do the core rules differentiate between ceilings and walls already to make this unnecessary or did the rules designers just think it was funny for a model to get its fat ass stuck in a hatch?
Albertorius wrote: Honestly, those rules feel like something that should have been already on the core book, but decided against it so they could milk it.
So... nope.
Yes, unfortunately GW has been far too successful with insubstantial DLC-like rules releases in other games. Of course they went and integrated it in the latest version of Kill Team.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: They've probably just killed the game with this move to be honest, it's not as if it is hugely popular as it is, but I imagine a vast majority of people will choose to leave it now.
You also know there is some clause attached to the doors etc in terms of when and who can use them.
Yeah I mainly bought the main compendium to make a Thousand Sons kill team and not even 2 months after the main release they print new rules in white dwarf making the compendium completely useless for me.
I am really disappointed. I shouldn't have bought into the hype.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Little known fact: A Space Marines biggest adversary are flights of stairs.
Think about it: What set of stairs would be rated for a Marine in full armour with all their equipment as well?
Umm. Most stairs. Marines are individually big and heavy, but stairs are designed for lots of people at the same time. Might be a problem for small wooden domestic stairs in older houses, but not for anything commercial.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: They've probably just killed the game with this move to be honest, it's not as if it is hugely popular as it is, but I imagine a vast majority of people will choose to leave it now.
You also know there is some clause attached to the doors etc in terms of when and who can use them.
Yeah I mainly bought the main compendium to make a Thousand Sons kill team and not even 2 months after the main release they print new rules in white dwarf making the compendium completely useless for me.
I am really disappointed. I shouldn't have bought into the hype.
I doubt it would have much legs, and is more relevant to the country you reside in and where you purchased an item from, but I wonder if anyone in the UK has chanced asking for a refund within 6 months of purchase from GW due to it being:
*isn’t fit for purpose
or
*doesn’t last for a reasonable amount of time
In regards to specific issues above with purchases being invalidated/irrelevebt within such a short amount of time.
I doubt it would work with GW, I wonder if anyone would care enough to go down the consumer rights route for action...
I would also wonder if you could claim a refund on codex's rules that require significant errata due to having 'a fault at the point of purchase'.
Again, very doubtful, but the right pedant may come along at some point
H.B.M.C. wrote: Little known fact: A Space Marines biggest adversary are flights of stairs.
Think about it: What set of stairs would be rated for a Marine in full armour with all their equipment as well?
Umm. Most stairs. Marines are individually big and heavy, but stairs are designed for lots of people at the same time. Might be a problem for small wooden domestic stairs in older houses, but not for anything commercial.
But is that weight concentrated, and taking into account the force involved with each step if a marine is moving at speed? A lot of us regular humans can generate 3x body weight in force with each step when running, more so the faster you move... I think a lot of commercial stairs are going to struggle with 3 tons hitting it in a concentrated area... I'd be super interested if I was wrong though
With every preview this box seems worse and worse. Sisters get the standard kit of expanded rules in exchange for their power armour and prolific weapon? Thank goodness we have the ironclad narrative explanation that they throw their noobs at the most complicated problems which is definitely in character for sororitas and not because this lore was originally going to go in the space marines set.
Tau players at least seem to be more enthused by the rules they get, but the kit is dissapointing - personally I'd rather have the upgrade kit as a sisters player.
Terrain is great if you need it, but an awful waste of space and plastic if you don't. New rules for the baseline game follows just fine with the idea of episodic content that GW presented in their roadmap, but even the most dedicated KT player isn't going to drop that kind of money on rules every three months.
If you're wondering what all those fancy upgrades and extra doodads - Evsicerator, Condemnor Bolter, the medic, double whips, the big-ass mace, etc. - do for Novitiates, well let me tell you:
If you're wondering what all those fancy upgrades and extra doodads - Evsicerator, Condemnor Bolter, the medic, double whips, the big-ass mace, etc. - do for Novitiates, well let me tell you:
Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
They're not 40k options. KT only it seems.
Safe to assume that when Krieg and Novice Sisters are sold on their own they will not come with the equipment sprue, that will be exclusive to the KT boxes?
If you're wondering what all those fancy upgrades and extra doodads - Evsicerator, Condemnor Bolter, the medic, double whips, the big-ass mace, etc. - do for Novitiates, well let me tell you:
Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
They're not 40k options. KT only it seems.
holy feth, you're right.
Wonder if that means that the additional "kill team" sprues for krieg and tau will also not have any 40k rules then when those codexes drop? Seems only the Orks got the wargear because it was built into the Kommando kit natively
If you're wondering what all those fancy upgrades and extra doodads - Evsicerator, Condemnor Bolter, the medic, double whips, the big-ass mace, etc. - do for Novitiates, well let me tell you:
Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
They're not 40k options. KT only it seems.
That's a good thing. You don't actually want 10 different profiles in a 10 man squad in an army scale game.
Wonder if that means that the additional "kill team" sprues for krieg and tau will also not have any 40k rules then when those codexes drop? Seems only the Orks got the wargear because it was built into the Kommando kit natively
The Krieg ones won't, in all likelihood, because some of the parts feel more like a Command Squad's kit than a "standard" Infantry/Veteran squad. The Grenadier masked demolitions expert, a more complex voxcaster+flares/flaregun and map, the bigger & open medic bag plus the narthecium styled gauntlet, etc.
On the T’au side, the snazzy upgraded Pathfinders can be used as a normal unit in your T’au army. Their kit won’t remain ornamental for long, though – brand new options for Pathfinders will be arriving in an upcoming codex. In fact, Fire Caste commanders among you will be excited to discover that it’s one of the first new codexes coming in 2022.
I was honestly a little disappointed that the ork wargear stuff didn’t translate.
Getting a proper sniper on orks woulda been a laugh, and the comms pistol is pitiful.
Captain Joystick wrote: Terrain is great if you need it, but an awful waste of space and plastic if you don't.
About that specific point, you are of course correct about the usefulness to the individual, but if you were to remove the terrain (and board since that's not going to do you much good without terrain) there's not much left of the box. Two squads and an expansion book might as well not be bundled together and can just be sold separately, which is going to with the squads eventually.
We may not need the terrain (I'd have a use for it personally, others may not), but for GW it's an important part to make it fit the appearance of their usual big boxes.
That's a good thing. You don't actually want 10 different profiles in a 10 man squad in an army scale game.
That's... not a bad point.
I don't know. They could allow one or two special options in place of an equal number of the existing options. Would you rather have a choppy squad? Toss the flamer and get an eviscerator. But you have to chose one or the other. Inspiration is good, but resurrecting your squad mates is better? Get a narthecium instead of a banner. That kind of thing.
But as you in my opinion so accurately speculated, an eventual 40k release of the squad simply won't have the added sprue. With no model, no rules they can't just add any of the options on the upgrade sprue to the datasheet.
TBH for a "low tier " troop option they have a reasonable amount of options. 2 for the sargeants, 2 special weapons, 2 special equipement and two basic options for each sister. Thats good enough in my book.
Let the rest of the bits to customize other kits or characters.
If you're wondering what all those fancy upgrades and extra doodads - Evsicerator, Condemnor Bolter, the medic, double whips, the big-ass mace, etc. - do for Novitiates, well let me tell you:
Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
They're not 40k options. KT only it seems.
As annoying as 'no model, no rules' is, 'model, but no rules' is still way more baffling.
Umm…I think you guys miss the scale of games. 40K is a squad based games and each unit has a couple of upgrades. Kill Team is a model based game and well each model can be upgraded. Reminds me of the complaints of Epic 40K not having every variant of Predator missing the idea of scale.
Chairman Aeon wrote: Umm…I think you guys miss the scale of games. 40K is a squad based games and each unit has a couple of upgrades. Kill Team is a model based game and well each model can be upgraded. Reminds me of the complaints of Epic 40K not having every variant of Predator missing the idea of scale.
Yes, you don't need every model to be upgradable in 40K, but you could have couple of models in the squad that can take any of the items that come in the kit.
Mr Morden wrote: Actually pleased the rules for the teenage-killer Sisters are free and much better laid out than the codex with points etc all on the same page!
I was expecting them to be a Campaign book unit.
They still might be. Those books don’t pad themselves.
If you're wondering what all those fancy upgrades and extra doodads - Evsicerator, Condemnor Bolter, the medic, double whips, the big-ass mace, etc. - do for Novitiates, well let me tell you:
Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
They're not 40k options. KT only it seems.
As annoying as 'no model, no rules' is, 'model, but no rules' is still way more baffling.
Don't worry, the leader can still take main hand bolter, off hand bolt pistol; main hand sword, off hand bolt pistol; main hand sword, off hand plasma pistol.
What's that? You wanted main hand bolter off hand plasma? Nah that's not in the assembly instructions.
I like the 40k rules for them. 27 attacks with those blades on the charge, which mathhammers out to maybe 1 or 2 dead space marines.
I think they'll be a great screening unit, especially if you can indeed get an extra flamer in there. I'm hoping that their arms are interchangeable with the regular sisters of battle. If so, a lack of 2nd flamer on the kit will be a real non-issue.
lord_blackfang wrote: That's a good thing. You don't actually want 10 different profiles in a 10 man squad in an army scale game.
You mean you don't want another unit entry that looks like this? Sacrilege!
Lord Damocles wrote: You only get one flamer on the basic sprues, but the unit can take two. You also only get the similacrum on the upgrade sprue.
Which makes their options all the more baffling.
Do we have any indication that the there will be two boxes? Because there are are two flamers in the kit, I don't think there is any evidence they plan to sell the "upgrade sprue" as a separate element.
I know they talk about an "upgrade" sprue, but I think it would not make a great deal of sense for GW to have two SKU's for the same kit. The boxes and the packaging and shipments of the kits costs as much as the things we actually want to buy, so having two sets of boxes would be very expensive, as the per unit cost of printing goes down the more you print.
The guard have been released with an upgrade sprue, but they aren't selling those seperately.
It is the same with the Death Korps. They also have an "upgrade kit" but it would make zero sense to sell it as separate. Especially as there are medic components on the normal sprue, but the vox is the "upgrade sprue"/
privateer4hire wrote: “… even the most dedicated KT player isn't going to drop that kind of money on rules every three months...”
They most certainly will. We all probably know someone or several someones who will do just that.
People will spend that if Kill Team is "their game" - the price point, plus the limited use of these models in 40K definitely makes it seem like GW are pushing for KT to be its own thing, not an entry point or side game for 40K.
lord_blackfang wrote: That's a good thing. You don't actually want 10 different profiles in a 10 man squad in an army scale game.
You mean you don't want another unit entry that looks like this? Sacrilege!
Lord Damocles wrote: You only get one flamer on the basic sprues, but the unit can take two. You also only get the similacrum on the upgrade sprue.
Which makes their options all the more baffling.
Do we have any indication that the there will be two boxes? Because there are are two flamers in the kit, I don't think there is any evidence they plan to sell the "upgrade sprue" as a separate element.
I know they talk about an "upgrade" sprue, but I think it would not make a great deal of sense for GW to have two SKU's for the same kit. The boxes and the packaging and shipments of the kits costs as much as the things we actually want to buy, so having two sets of boxes would be very expensive, as the per unit cost of printing goes down the more you print.
The guard have been released with an upgrade sprue, but they aren't selling those seperately.
It is the same with the Death Korps. They also have an "upgrade kit" but it would make zero sense to sell it as separate. Especially as there are medic components on the normal sprue, but the vox is the "upgrade sprue"/
The boxes were shown for the death korps at the GenCon reveal, and they were labelled as veteran guardsmen in killteam packaging (not 40k) which I assume will have the upgrade sprue as it was repeatedly stated all models will be released for Octarius, so I think it will be safe to assume the teenage nunster ninja sisters will also be in killteam boxes with the upgrade sprue also.
Spoiler:
I imagine there could be a slim chance for the death korps that you can buy as veteran guardsmen and eventually buy as standard guardsmen, without the upgrade sprue and it will be in 40k packaging.
I also, totally forgot there is a kill team starter set due out with the DKoK and Orks in it.
Looks like the new Chalnath teams are getting something in between Kommandos and Vet. Guard in terms of quantity of specialists.
Tau are getting 8 (in addition to standard trooper and leader):
Assault Grenadier
Communications Specialist
Drone Controler
Marksman
Mxxxxx (illegible)
Medical Technician
Transpectral Intxxxxxx (partial guess, rest illegible)
Weapons Expert
Novitiates get 10 (in addition to trooper and superior):
Condemnor (guessing)
Duelist
Exactor
Hospitaler
Oxxxxx (illegible)
Penitent
Pontificus (guessing)
Preceptor
Purgatus
Reliquarian
I wouldn't be surprised if the Noitiates end up in the next Sisters codex whenever that ends up being. After all the BSF Ecclesiarchy models ended up in the most recent codex and their wargear became the default for certain generic models.
Some how the Chalnath box us AUD$290, the same cost as the Octarius box, despite not having dice, cards, the measuring equipment/barricades and the rulebook.
The Red Hobbit wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if the Noitiates end up in the next Sisters codex whenever that ends up being. After all the BSF Ecclesiarchy models ended up in the most recent codex and their wargear became the default for certain generic models.
Given the downloadable datasheet for them, and the inevitability of them getting a standalone release in a few months, I wouldn't bet against it.
I also wouldn't mind any of these rogue datasheets getting included in either CA or the MFM when they're next printed, just to be on the safe side - assuming an appropriate new 'dex for that faction hasn't been released in time, of course.
The Novitiate Duellist shows interesting new design space implications of the KT21 melee system. Her Expert Riposte ability can use a successful crit for parrying AND dealing damage simultaneously.
Another interesting rules design tweak is the Novitiates Strategic Ploy which temporarily makes all ranged weapons have an infinite range. With such a strong melee weapon option available, I can see novitiates wanting to favour autopistols and swords over the autogun in most cases, since you can just spend 1 CP to get unlimited ramge to your pistol weapons during the first turning points.
I really like what I'm seeing in terms of rules here. If the box was sanely priced, I'd bite, but for now I'll just get things individually instead. By my slow hobbying pace, I guess I could even wait for the individual kits, I already want to do this with my DKoK for getting a second box.
Apologies if this has already been covered in the thread, but does anybody know how many terrain sprues are included in the box?
I'm not that keen on the Tau or Sisters, I'm trying to work out if it would be worth it for me to buy a box just for the terrain? I'm assuming that I could sell each squad for around £30.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Apologies if this has already been covered in the thread, but does anybody know how many terrain sprues are included in the box?
I'm not that keen on the Tau or Sisters, I'm trying to work out if it would be worth it for me to buy a box just for the terrain? I'm assuming that I could sell each squad for around £30.
It looks like 5 large sprues of scenery (2x walls, 2x floors, 1x arches) and 6 small sprues (3 of each ruin sprue).
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Apologies if this has already been covered in the thread, but does anybody know how many terrain sprues are included in the box?
I'm not that keen on the Tau or Sisters, I'm trying to work out if it would be worth it for me to buy a box just for the terrain? I'm assuming that I could sell each squad for around £30.
It looks like 5 large sprues of scenery (2x walls, 2x floors, 1x arches) and 6 small sprues (3 of each ruin sprue).
Thanks! Would love to get confirmation of this, it's definitely tempting me into a purchase now...
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Apologies if this has already been covered in the thread, but does anybody know how many terrain sprues are included in the box?
I'm not that keen on the Tau or Sisters, I'm trying to work out if it would be worth it for me to buy a box just for the terrain? I'm assuming that I could sell each squad for around £30.
It looks like 5 large sprues of scenery (2x walls, 2x floors, 1x arches) and 6 small sprues (3 of each ruin sprue).
Thanks! Would love to get confirmation of this, it's definitely tempting me into a purchase now...
You can see the included sprues in the listing on GW.com, so we can definitely say there are five different sprues in the set.
Not sure if there are 3 of each ruins sprues, as only five small ruins are shown - having said that, I've no experience with these kits, so it might be a better question for someone like HBMC.
You can see the included sprues in the listing on GW.com, so we can definitely say there are five different sprues in the set.
Not sure if there are 3 of each ruins sprues, as only five small ruins are shown - having said that, I've no experience with these kits, so it might be a better question for someone like HBMC.
As long as the picture matches the contents my numbers should be correct. Second level ruined walls are also made of ruins sprues, hence the large amount.
EDIT: Scenery content appears to be identical to original KT starter set from 2018.
Finished watching. Novitiates held back for too long IMO, they shoulda tried to get to melee way earlier.
I don't agree with the host's "Faith points are way OP" opinion. The novitiates are pretty lackluster, so the faith points even out the odds. Indeed, giving faith points to regular SoB teams would result in cheese, but on the novitiates I think they are fine.
You can see the included sprues in the listing on GW.com, so we can definitely say there are five different sprues in the set.
Not sure if there are 3 of each ruins sprues, as only five small ruins are shown - having said that, I've no experience with these kits, so it might be a better question for someone like HBMC.
As long as the picture matches the contents my numbers should be correct. Second level ruined walls are also made of ruins sprues, hence the large amount.
EDIT: Scenery content appears to be identical to original KT starter set from 2018.
Contents are correct. And occasionally the terrain gets put up on ebay for reasonable prices. Snapped up a few sets to continue project: massive city.
The Chalnath book seems to be around 30€ on ebay right now, kinda tempting. I'm leaning on just getting the book for now, I can always get the minis later when they become available as separate kits
Looking at the two box sets released so far, should Kill Team be looked at for samplers of what is forthcoming in 40K?
For example new Kommandos ahead of the Ork codex, Pathfinders upgrade ahead of new Tau codex next year. The DKoK is ahead of a release of plastic kits for IG if the rumours are correct. SoB are the outliers as they were years without new releases and follow up on plastic kits finally being released.
We definitely did see an Aeldari Ranger arming a mine in the Rumor Engine...
I really want to see an Eldar demolitions expert. 9 rangers all sleek with long rifles and cam cloaks, then a blocky one loaded down with pouches, bombs, grenades, psywire and detonators...
We definitely did see an Aeldari Ranger arming a mine in the Rumor Engine...
I really want to see an Eldar demolitions expert. 9 rangers all sleek with long rifles and cam cloaks, then a blocky one loaded down with pouches, bombs, grenades, psywire and detonators...
I really hope it comes with a full team review, if it’s just the rangers I feel it just going to be a bit of a pain.
Kill Team will bring us plastic Rangers. The big box release of them plus someone else will give 40K players new models. Cynicism aside, a team like Kommandos, Veteran Guard and even the Pathfinders with accessory sprue is exactly the model I'd expect for the Rangers. Had to see dude(tte)s with sniper rifles, some specialists include sappers, saboteurs and at least one melee one. I don't know why the rumoured Warlock/Farseer would be in their box as they aren't intrinsic to the unit an GW seems to have shied away from Starstriders type teams.
And speaking of which, when will GW give the Starstriders the WD treatment? Unless they plan to sneak them into big box with something else...
Chairman Aeon wrote: I don't know why the rumoured Warlock/Farseer would be in their box as they aren't intrinsic to the unit an GW seems to have shied away from Starstriders type teams.
And speaking of which, when will GW give the Starstriders the WD treatment? Unless they plan to sneak them into big box with something else...
Do the Gellerpox have KT rules for this edition, out of interest?
Chairman Aeon wrote: I don't know why the rumoured Warlock/Farseer would be in their box as they aren't intrinsic to the unit an GW seems to have shied away from Starstriders type teams.
And speaking of which, when will GW give the Starstriders the WD treatment? Unless they plan to sneak them into big box with something else...
Do the Gellerpox have KT rules for this edition, out of interest?
No and considering that the box is no longer available, the chances are slim at best. Sad fact on GW side, Chaos would have a massive store if they had ever released the multitude of models individually that came out in boxed sets. Nothing stops you from designing house rules of course. The rule set for the Plaque Marines would be an obvious starting point.
I wouldn't get too excited. Given the models as they are we should expect something along the lines of:
"A Rogue Trader Armsmen unit consists of 5 models. One model is armed with a Shotgun, 3 models are armed with Lasguns, and one model has a Gatling Whatever. All models have Laspistols."
They'll end up even more limited than Inquisitorial Acolytes.
Such is the danger the Imperium finds itself in that even Rogue Traders, normally content to watch from the sidelines for a quick profit, are committing their own forces to the Cordon’s defence. With two datasheets and a cargo hold of exotic Crusade rules of their own, this is the perfect opportunity to field your Rogue Trader models in games of Warhammer 40,000, or to convert your own personalised crew.
Spoiler:
The Rogue Traders can be equipped in 3 different ways, matching up to the 3 RT models we've gotten.
Voidsmen at Arms can for every 1 in 5 take a Rotor Cannon, but they get Lasguns as standard and the Voidmaster at Arms has the Shotgun+Laspistol combo to match the model. Also, rules for the doggo.
1 Voidmaster and 4-9 Voidsmen. 1 in 5 can take a Rotor Cannon. Voidmaster has to have the Artificer Shotgun and Laspistol. The rest get Lasguns. Canid is an option for the squad.
I wouldn't exactly call that super restrictive.
I will say that the House Greim Military Attache set for Necromunda seems tailormade for this.
So it's the old Kill Team RT team, except no specialists (assassin, medic) but this time you at least have a variable squad size and aren't forced to field exactly the contents of one sprue? It's an improvement at least.
Astra Cartographia? Space Map Makers? Space Explorers more likely.
I don't remember seeing it mentioned before, anyone else seen it?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lord_blackfang wrote: So it's the old Kill Team RT team, except no specialists (assassin, medic) but this time you at least have a variable squad size and aren't forced to field exactly the contents of one sprue? It's an improvement at least.
For what it's worth the art includes some of the other characters which would give you a medic, tech priest etc.
But explorers make maps, and maps are much more useful for the Imperium than whatever little fiddling the actual explorers manage to slot in the sidelines. Basically the Ordnance Survey in space.
Aeneades wrote: Are we sure the rules are actually for Kill Team? One of the preview videos (with the book in hand), said they were for 40k. Given the very limited page count that would make more sense.
So we're clear:
Nobody is saying that those book rules are for KT. It's known that they're for 40k.
GW did, apparently, make a comment at GenCon that there are rules for Inquisition, Gellerpox, and Rogue Trader KTs coming though.
Aeneades wrote: Are we sure the rules are actually for Kill Team? One of the preview videos (with the book in hand), said they were for 40k. Given the very limited page count that would make more sense.
So we're clear:
Nobody is saying that those book rules are for KT. It's known that they're for 40k.
GW did, apparently, make a comment at GenCon that there are rules for Inquisition, Gellerpox, and Rogue Trader KTs coming though.
And frankly, it is a travesty that those rules were not available from the get go. The Rogue Trader box was explicitly for Kill Team, and it is gakky move to make its contents unusable for the game with the new edition for such a long time.
Aeneades wrote: Are we sure the rules are actually for Kill Team? One of the preview videos (with the book in hand), said they were for 40k. Given the very limited page count that would make more sense.
So we're clear:
Nobody is saying that those book rules are for KT. It's known that they're for 40k.
GW did, apparently, make a comment at GenCon that there are rules for Inquisition, Gellerpox, and Rogue Trader KTs coming though.
And frankly, it is a travesty that those rules were not available from the get go. The Rogue Trader box was explicitly for Kill Team, and it is gakky move to make its contents unusable for the game with the new edition for such a long time.
I can kind of understand why they weren't in the KT Compendium(not like you can buy the Starstriders or Gellerpox right now), but I agree for the most part.
Oh and I really hope these rules herald the return of the Rogue Trader minis. It is weird and annoying that they disappeared so soon. And yeah, I guess same for the Gellerpox in case someone cares about them.
I'd like to see the models made available again, too, but I can never push aside the thought that they'd be as stupidly priced as the other menagerie sprues from recent boxed sets. Indomitus, Cursed City, and so on. I'd just bite myself for not getting Rogue Trader when it was still available as by those standards it would look like a steal.
If you didn't wan to make people generic 'medic' and the like my solution for those boxes 9and I guess a dream release) would be...
I suppose you would split them into 5? fireteams and pick 2.
CSM - Leader (Mallus) and 2 black legion bodyguards
Traitor Guardsmen - 7 guys as per box
Cultists - 7 guys as per box
Scum - 4 guys chosen from Beastmen, Nega Voltists, up to 2 rogue Pyskers
If you don't pick the CSM can upgrade one Guardsman to be a commissar, or one cultist to be a firebrand.
The heroes aren't enough to take a full 20 man roster so if you did them would have to think up some kind of retainer. Or could combine with the Starstriders into some kind of set up. I reckon one fireteam of Voidsmen then a choice of 3? fireteams made up of the heroes grouped into three power levels for a team of 2, 3 or 4 members.
So they would be stating and grouping up
• Knosso Prond
• Larsen van der Grauss
• Sanistasia Minst
• Elucia Vhane
• Gotfret de Montbard
• Pious Vorne
• Rein and Raus
• UR-025
• X-101
• Amallyn Shadowguide
• Aradia Madellan
• Daedalosus
• Dahyak Grekh
• Espern Locarno
• Janus Draik
• Neyam Shai Murad
• Taddeus the Purifier
Giving you a roster of 20 guys (the 6 voidsmen and choices from the above 18 people)
Then I guess do a special made to order release window for the models.
The Gellarpox are another too small faction, so either group in with deathguard as another 1 or 2 fireteam choices or add them to the blackstone guys.
Geifer wrote: I'd like to see the models made available again, too, but I can never push aside the thought that they'd be as stupidly priced as the other menagerie sprues from recent boxed sets. Indomitus, Cursed City, and so on. I'd just bite myself for not getting Rogue Trader when it was still available as by those standards it would look like a steal.
Some of the Blackstone Fortress figure set releases have been decently priced, though? Like the Cultists of the Abyss and the Servants of the Abyss boxes.
Yeah, I didn't pay attention to the servants but bought a box of the cultists. Nice models at a surprisingly decent price. It's just not something I'd expect GW to repeat, considering they came before all those examples I named. Though I guess it depends on the format in which they'd be released. If the Rogue Trader factions were brought back for Kill Team with their own unit box, they might actually be similar in price to whatever GW is going to ask for the Death Korps box. As individual, direct only sprues, possibly tying in with a 40k Rogue Trader release that makes the characters stand out as actual character rather than just more operatives, I'd be a lot less hopeful about their price.
As for Eldar versus Chaos, would be neat. I don't recall if we had any credible rumors past Sisters and Tau, but I thought there was talk about Eldar Rangers for Kill Team before?
the reliable rumors indicated that after GSC/Custodes would be Tau, and after Tau would be large releases for Eldar and CSM. Nids and IG were stated to be much farther out
So we're clear, that Catachan artwork is for the novel "Catachan Devils" coming out in paperback.
Worth mentioning that there really isn't anything stopping another "Warzone Launch Box" that could include a new Catachan Jungle Fighter Squad and new Lictors in plastic even with those highly accurate rumors.
The setting for the next Kill Team expansion might be Khai-Zhan.
"Kill Team: Khai-Zhan. Return to Vogen and choose Faith or Loyalty as the Imperial Forces fall upon each other."
Posted to the Games Workshop - Oslo facebook page today.
EDIT:
I asked the store and it turns out it's just a one off event specific to this store. Sorry if this caused any confusion. Leaving the comment in the thread for contextual reasons.
zamerion wrote: It looks like it's something from the store, and not the next kill zone, right?
Could always be just a store campaign. Although the wording seems more like that of an official expansion. Besides it does line up with the official Kill Team Roadmap which shows us geting a new set in early next year. Might be a way for the store to advertise it.
That said; I wouldnt take it as a confirmation. I just think that it is fun to speculate.
The White Dwarf GSC KillTeam rules have leaked prematurely, no doubt some WD subscriber got their copy early.
Looks interesting, can take Locus, Sanctus sniper, Sanctus talon and Kellermorph (which all count as two operatives per model). Climbing equipment! Sadly, no purestrains nor Aberrants.
Too bad the upcoming combat patrol box doesn't seem to be a very good fit for such a team.
The Phazer wrote: Two Genestealer Cult Kill Teams and neither of them can take Genestealers, while Tyranids can.
It's almost embarrassing at this point how poor the selection rules are.
It's almost as embarrassing as people not recognizing that maybe, just maybe the focus in Genestealer Cults isn't on the first word but the second one.
The Phazer wrote: Two Genestealer Cult Kill Teams and neither of them can take Genestealers, while Tyranids can.
It's almost embarrassing at this point how poor the selection rules are.
It's almost as embarrassing as people not recognizing that maybe, just maybe the focus in Genestealer Cults isn't on the first word but the second one.
They might appear at a later "elite" stage of the game, along with Lictors.
I like to think there is a Purestrain kit in the works, which has a more classical look to them and thus distingush them from their Tyranid counterparts. Not necessary, mind, but it would be nice all the same.
Generally, the more obviously inhuman cultists - like the aberrants and purestrains - don't come out to play until the rebellion is in full swing. The kill team is just representing a more clandestine approach to warfare.
The Phazer wrote: Two Genestealer Cult Kill Teams and neither of them can take Genestealers, while Tyranids can.
It's almost embarrassing at this point how poor the selection rules are.
It's almost as embarrassing as people not recognizing that maybe, just maybe the focus in Genestealer Cultsh isn't on the first word but the second one.
No, there are other cults in the 40k universe if that's your thing.
And Genestealers were in Genestealer Cults well before they had anything to do with Tyranids.
The Phazer wrote: Two Genestealer Cult Kill Teams and neither of them can take Genestealers, while Tyranids can.
It's almost embarrassing at this point how poor the selection rules are.
It's almost as embarrassing as people not recognizing that maybe, just maybe the focus in Genestealer Cultsh isn't on the first word but the second one.
No, there are other cults in the 40k universe if that's your thing.
And Genestealers were in Genestealer Cults well before they had anything to do with Tyranids.
Okay, and?
Genestealer Cults, as an army now have a specific style and set up. That style and set up has those more overtly alien bits as not being part of the "initial uprising".
But it’s about choice. It seems a bit perverse that the faction has no way of taking one of the fundamental parts of the range as a choice. It would be like marines not being able to take intercessors/tactical marines. Kill team is not just about early uprising timings, but should also be able to represent later events where the fight is in full swing any pure strains have been let off the leash.
I think GSC should be allowed a purestrain - note I don't play this game, nor any other, but in the lore they should be allowed at least one, even if it a rare, hallowed, sacred beast. That was how it was back in the day, in the stories. Even in the likes of 'Deathwing'. A cult should have this.
So... this is the box that already came out, right?
Just now in two boxes?
I didn't have a stroke and imagine a kommandos vs guard box last year?
Yes, it’s been split up into a starter set and a terrain set and had the rule book “streamlined” somehow.
So now you would have to buy the starter, KZ Octarius, and the WZ Octarius book to get equivalence. Except in price. That’ll be something close to double.
Did you imagine it would be any other way in the end?
So... this is the box that already came out, right?
Just now in two boxes?
I didn't have a stroke and imagine a kommandos vs guard box last year?
Yes, it’s been split up into a starter set and a terrain set and had the rule book “streamlined” somehow.
So now you would have to buy the starter, KZ Octarius, and the WZ Octarius book to get equivalence. Except in price. That’ll be something close to double.
Did you imagine it would be any other way in the end?
Honestly, I thought it was a one and done, and then the units separately sometime around Feb or March.
And a new starter similar to the Sisters vs Tau box, but focusing on Nachoworld or whatever the new 'starting zone' is. Aftermouth, I think, is the german translation. Which fits surprisingly well with Nachoworld, to be honest.
Honestly, I thought it was a one and done, and then the units separately sometime around Feb or March.
And a new starter similar to the Sisters vs Tau box, but focusing on Nachoworld or whatever the new 'starting zone' is. Aftermouth, I think, is the german translation. Which fits surprisingly well with Nachoworld, to be honest.
Octarius was the warzone "battlebox", like Chalnath and the Nachmund one that has been teased.
There was not a Kill Team "starter" yet. They said early on that it would be coming packaged like this.
The warzone "battleboxes" are going to be used to release a lore book and accompanying specialized Kill Teams apparently.
Starting with Indomitus, GW has been releasing some "launch" boxes that are a considerable higher value than their "starter" boxes. The launch boxes are all limited releases like Octarius (Kill Team) and Dominion (AOS). The starter boxes are a more modest affair and have generally been a subsection of the launch boxes with the other parts separated into additional releases.
Look at what happened to the Indomitus release. Its contents are now divided between the Recruit Edition starter box, Elite/Command Edition starter boxes, the Honored of the Chapter kit, and the Necron Royal Court kit.
So dividing the Octarius release between a starter box and a warzone box is just par for the course.
alextroy wrote: Starting with Indomitus, GW has been releasing some "launch" boxes that are a considerable higher value than their "starter" boxes. The launch boxes are all limited releases like Octarius (Kill Team) and Dominion (AOS). The starter boxes are a more modest affair and have generally been a subsection of the launch boxes with the other parts separated into additional releases.
Look at what happened to the Indomitus release. Its contents are now divided between the Recruit Edition starter box, Elite/Command Edition starter boxes, the Honored of the Chapter kit, and the Necron Royal Court kit.
So dividing the Octarius release between a starter box and a warzone box is just par for the course.
I think that Warcry lead the way with this approach. That first big box sold out and was replaced with a much smaller one.
Magic 8-Ball says US$60 (AUS$98) because all the new Troops kits have been at that price point. There is a slim chance GW will price it the same as the Cadian Shock Troops at US$45 (AUS$77), but I wouldn't hold my breathe on that since it is an old kit with a new upgrade sprue rather than all new sprues.
alextroy wrote: Magic 8-Ball says US$60 (AUS$98) because all the new Troops kits have been at that price point. There is a slim chance GW will price it the same as the Cadian Shock Troops at US$45 (AUS$77), but I wouldn't hold my breathe on that since it is an old kit with a new upgrade sprue rather than all new sprues.
The Cadian Shock Troop price was to match the Brood Brothers kit. Not because "old kit with a new upgrade sprue" or any such nonsense.
Brood Brothers kit is a HWT+GSC upgrade sprue.
Also, people overestimate how much customizability is in the DKoK or Kommando kits. We're probably looking at $50 rather than $60, and that's if it has a KT branding on it meaning the DKoK get their extraneous KT frame.
alextroy wrote: Magic 8-Ball says US$60 (AUS$98) because all the new Troops kits have been at that price point. There is a slim chance GW will price it the same as the Cadian Shock Troops at US$45 (AUS$77), but I wouldn't hold my breathe on that since it is an old kit with a new upgrade sprue rather than all new sprues.
The Cadian Shock Troop price was to match the Brood Brothers kit. Not because "old kit with a new upgrade sprue" or any such nonsense.
Brood Brothers kit is a HWT+GSC upgrade sprue.
Also, people overestimate how much customizability is in the DKoK or Kommando kits. We're probably looking at $50 rather than $60, and that's if it has a KT branding on it meaning the DKoK get their extraneous KT frame.
I am thinking these will lean more possibly $60 but if they were 50 I wouldn't complain. Considering 10 of the new beastie boyz are $50 and they have like no options... I will find it hard to believe it will be $50 especially if they keep all the options. Whatever one half is i am sure the other will match.
The Phazer wrote: Two Genestealer Cult Kill Teams and neither of them can take Genestealers, while Tyranids can.
It's almost embarrassing at this point how poor the selection rules are.
It's almost as embarrassing as people not recognizing that maybe, just maybe the focus in Genestealer Cults isn't on the first word but the second one.
The difficulty is that if you want to run a GSC escalation from start to finish, Purestrains are literally the first brood- a Cult cannot exist without them. They implant civilians, which become brood brothers, they breed Acolytes; Acolytes breed Neophytes and characters, Neophytes breed purestrains... Repeat.
Aberrants can appear in any brood cycle, but they are more likely in later cycles. Metamorphs only show up third cycle and later.
So if you want to play battles that represent the growth of the Cult, your roster HAS TO start with purestrains... But it can't.
The best you can do is start at 3rd generation with Acolytes. Ridiculous.
Edit- just read that the WDGSCKT rules leaked and still no Purestrains. Looks like I'm making my own rules... Again. FFS GW, why can't you understand that a Cult's Genesis is one of the most interesting stories in the lifespan of the Cult. Requiring people to start at the 3rd generation is bogus.
alextroy wrote: Magic 8-Ball says US$60 (AUS$98) because all the new Troops kits have been at that price point. There is a slim chance GW will price it the same as the Cadian Shock Troops at US$45 (AUS$77), but I wouldn't hold my breathe on that since it is an old kit with a new upgrade sprue rather than all new sprues.
All new troop kits have been $98AUD? I think only power armoured ones and the new high elves have been $98 for 10 models.
Gutrippaz came in at $84 for 10, Beast Snaggas at $84 for 10, the new Boyz at $77 for 10, Skeletons were $98 for 20, Zombies $90 for 20.
If they come out at $98 it would perhaps show that GW consider the new DKOK as "elite" troops of some description rather than your typical meatgrinder guardsmen.
Beast Snaggas and the new Boyz are both two sprue mono-build kits. DKOK are a three sprue kit. I doubt they will be at the lower price points of the Boyz.
As for the others, they are AOS kits which seem to have their own logic.
alextroy wrote: Beast Snaggas and the new Boyz are both two sprue mono-build kits. DKOK are a three sprue kit. I doubt they will be at the lower price points of the Boyz.
As for the others, they are AOS kits which seem to have their own logic.
DKOK are one large sprue (I guess 2 half sprues if you think of it that way) plus a small sprue (quarter size maybe?). The Kommandos are 3 half size sprues.
GW pricing is some weird mix of sprue count, sprue size, model size, points, and whatever they feel like that day.
On the GW site, selecting only troops and sorting by price in the 40k section, the only kits that are $98 for 10 models are power armoured, so going on similarity to other troops, I'd guess they'd be less than $98 for the DKoK, but going on sprue count maybe $98 is about right.
If they're $98, it's getting to the point where you might as well just get the FWDKoK for $110, less options but nicer looking models.
Not sure what to expect, but I agree that the Death Korps box probably shouldn't be priced as power armored troops (that's 45€). The early Warcry bands were priced at 40€ while the latest ones (flame dudes from the previous starter) went up to €42.50. I could see the Krieg box getting the same price tag.
Not that that's an exciting prospect for a squad of Guardsmen, mind.
Voss wrote: And a new starter similar to the Sisters vs Tau box, but focusing on Nachoworld or whatever the new 'starting zone' is. Aftermouth, I think, is the german translation. Which fits surprisingly well with Nachoworld, to be honest.
I figured the name was based on "Nachtmund" (night's mouth) because GW would be looking for something that sounds ominous, and then had its spelling altered because real words are the devil.
Billicus wrote: That starter set is a bargain by GW standards! Presumably doesn't include the full books
I don't think it's that great? You don't get the full Kill Zone, you don't get the Octarius book, and the rulebook is a cut down version (though TBH the cutdown version is probably better, I've never liked the idea of rulebooks having tons of fluff and pictures that just make them unnecessarily large and harder to find the actual rules).
It's still a discount, but it doesn't seem like that significant of one compared to a lot of the other GW starter sets.
You do also get "a 56-page Recruit Edition book packed with background info and tutorial missions." which looks like it might be different from anything in Octarius. Presumably enough rules that you can actually play a game with the units you get given you don't get the full rules for those units without buying the Octarius book.
Cut down starter rulebook is by no means unusual. It's not a good deal by other companies standards - the new Deadzone starter destroys it - but for GW it's good. Harrowdeep is £65, you get way more bang for your buck here. It's comparable to Warcry Catacombs and they wanted £110 for that right?
Billicus wrote: Cut down starter rulebook is by no means unusual. It's not a good deal by other companies standards - the new Deadzone starter destroys it - but for GW it's good. Harrowdeep is £65, you get way more bang for your buck here. It's comparable to Warcry Catacombs and they wanted £110 for that right?
It's not cut down much either, 96 pages rather than 130ish.
Billicus wrote: Cut down starter rulebook is by no means unusual. It's not a good deal by other companies standards - the new Deadzone starter destroys it - but for GW it's good. Harrowdeep is £65, you get way more bang for your buck here. It's comparable to Warcry Catacombs and they wanted £110 for that right?
Billicus wrote: Cut down starter rulebook is by no means unusual. It's not a good deal by other companies standards - the new Deadzone starter destroys it - but for GW it's good. Harrowdeep is £65, you get way more bang for your buck here. It's comparable to Warcry Catacombs and they wanted £110 for that right?
Without doing the maths, I don't think this looks as good as AoS, 40k or Blood Bowl starter sets.
The terrain in this case isn't great because it's just the scatter terrain from either the Kill Zone Octarius or the Mekboy Workshop, without the main interesting parts of those sets. If it included the full Mekboy Workshop it'd maybe be a bit more appealing.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Ouch on the DKK price. That's a pretty firm no thanks from me.
You buying full retail or something?
LOL Necro gangs are like $35 with discount and give me plenty of modelling fun.
So unless the DKK are going for 40% off I can't see them winning out over a gang. I won't even pay the $45 for Cadians who actually match my existing army.
Was in for a starter anyway, but yikes, the standard Krieg boxed set is a bit too expensive for my tastes, so that future Krieg army is not happening any time soon now.
Billicus wrote: Cut down starter rulebook is by no means unusual. It's not a good deal by other companies standards - the new Deadzone starter destroys it - but for GW it's good. Harrowdeep is £65, you get way more bang for your buck here. It's comparable to Warcry Catacombs and they wanted £110 for that right?
It's not cut down much either, 96 pages rather than 130ish.
Yep. The Core Rules Books is 144 pages, but the Core Rules don't start until page 50. Everything before that is background info. Seems like they just purged that and added a few intro pages to the rules.
GaroRobe wrote: If they sell DKoK for ebay prices (79.99), I'm done. Hopefully the starter set leads to lower prices online
It's $55USD. DaveC already posted the prices.
I remain convinced that there are Big Things coming for Guard, simply because both of these new squad SKUs have come without a Heavy Weapon Team--meaning the box doesn't build a full Troop choice under the current rules.
It's possible they will later do a 40k version of the Dkok when the new codex drops for $45 but without the specialist sprue, and then sell that direct only for $15 or something
$110 for the starter set isn't terrible, especially if you buy it for $88. I know getting 21 models and a few pieces of scatter terrain for that price isn't an industry leader for value, but for about one Benjamin a player can get into Kill Team and get two pretty nicely designed warbands to play it, which is not a big hurdle.
Also considering that despite constant chatter over "new players," I imagine 99.9% of people who play this game won't be new to GW, and therefore likely already have some terrain, or be like me and have more terrain than I actually have shelf space to put together and store.
a Krieg Army is still a viable option, but still not from GW so just to whatever people have done before the plastic box was around and FW was too expensive
just good for GW that FW stopped doing the Gorgon Infantry sprues, as this would be cheaper than going with GW plastic
I've managed to get hold of 70 plastic krieg, averaging £29 per set including postage... So I've done okay, not as cheap as I would have done by waiting for 20% off from FLGS, but still okay... It was always going to be an expensive build anyway.
£34.50 RRP from GW is too much money though to do a proper Krieg force. I hope they release a combat patrol of them in the end without the upgrade sprue and it is viable for most to do it.
Kanluwen is right though, I'm absolutely grafting to differentiate each model at the moment, and I'm only 30 guys in. The torso restrict certain load out changes without getting the green stuff out.
Luckily, have some resin Krieg to kit bash with though, which does work, though I want the masks to match so that also requires conversion. A labour of love.
That Krieg price.....ouch. Glad I picked up a couple extra squads for 40 from someone breaking down some boxed sets.
On the other hand, big congrats to GW for releasing the KT starter at a reasonable price that someone new to the hobby could feasibly grab for around 100 bucks. I honestly was expecting 140 or 150. I already have Octarius, but may pick up one of these starters for another squad of Krieg, the tutorial missions (I play games with a lot of non-wargamers), and another board/scatter to add to table. Also having more options for Kommandos would be nice.
GW pricing is some weird mix of sprue count, sprue size, model size, points, and whatever they feel like that day.
GW pricing is fairly straightforward, its based on the production costs (including all relevant overhead and indirect cost) vs the expected lifetime kit sales, adjusted for payback period. Points don't factor into it, its only an indirect factor as the points value of a unit generally indirectly correlates to the production cost (as higher points value models/units tend to be larger) and expected sales (people tend to buy fewer higher points value units, ergo they are less likely to generate repeat sales to any given customer for multiple copies of a kit - unlike cheaper "troops" type units which customers may purchase 3, 4, 6 or even more copies of depending on the unit).
Olthannon wrote: Is it really 34 quid for the krieg box? Hells teeth.
£3 per plastic model is absurd, even taking 20% off retail at something like wayland games, it's still way too much.
Looks like I'm waiting round until the eventual IG codex release and combat patrols before I expand my guard.
You can tell GW has their hooks in me because I'm like "that's not too bad." Though maybe it's because the only way to buy them previously was for the cost of an original start collecting set on ebay, and the individual models went for $15 a pop. I'm not going to hold my breath, but because there are multiple ways to get a squad now, maybe ebay will finally have them for a discount
Olthannon wrote: Is it really 34 quid for the krieg box? Hells teeth.
£3 per plastic model is absurd, even taking 20% off retail at something like wayland games, it's still way too much.
Looks like I'm waiting round until the eventual IG codex release and combat patrols before I expand my guard.
You can tell GW has their hooks in me because I'm like "that's not too bad." Though maybe it's because the only way to buy them previously was for the cost of an original start collecting set on ebay, and the individual models went for $15 a pop. I'm not going to hold my breath, but because there are multiple ways to get a squad now, maybe ebay will finally have them for a discount
Pricing gets normalized by the brain over time. I can remember when $3/model was high. GW has (this century) slowly crept from the goldswords (pretty much the classic box of 'What!?!' pricing) being $60 for a box of 10, to multiple boxes of (human-sized)infantry being $55 for 5. So $55 for 10 (much better) guardsmen with lots of options and bits really does almost seem reasonable until you step back and really think about it.
I could be wrong, but I think it was around the times the dark elves got their eighth edition upgrade that the price creep was first obvious (not that it wasn't constantly happening, but that's when it became the current standard). 50 or 60 for ten witch elves. And the rest is history.
Olthannon wrote: Is it really 34 quid for the krieg box? Hells teeth.
£3 per plastic model is absurd, even taking 20% off retail at something like wayland games, it's still way too much.
Looks like I'm waiting round until the eventual IG codex release and combat patrols before I expand my guard.
You can tell GW has their hooks in me because I'm like "that's not too bad." Though maybe it's because the only way to buy them previously was for the cost of an original start collecting set on ebay, and the individual models went for $15 a pop. I'm not going to hold my breath, but because there are multiple ways to get a squad now, maybe ebay will finally have them for a discount
Pricing gets normalized by the brain over time. I can remember when $3/model was high. GW has (this century) slowly crept from the goldswords (pretty much the classic box of 'What!?!' pricing) being $60 for a box of 10, to multiple boxes of (human-sized)infantry being $55 for 5. So $55 for 10 (much better) guardsmen with lots of options and bits really does almost seem reasonable until you step back and really think about it.
Well here's my question because I can't be arsed to go through that captcha problem on Forge World. What is the difference between the price of these 10 in plastic versus a squad from FW? Or what were they if they aren't available now?
I think my problem is I didn't have that normalisation. It's been over a year since I crept back into Warhammer but I'm still surprised at things like this.
EDIT: I'll be damned, they've finally fixed that captcha problem. But an individual krieg squad no longer exists.
Not defending the price of the new set mind, but it is a lot cheaper than Forgeworld still, and you don't get the chance of 20% via FLGS with Forgeworld
Olthannon wrote: Well here's my question because I can't be arsed to go through that captcha problem on Forge World. What is the difference between the price of these 10 in plastic versus a squad from FW? Or what were they if they aren't available now?
I think my problem is I didn't have that normalisation. It's been over a year since I crept back into Warhammer but I'm still surprised at things like this.
EDIT: I'll be damned, they've finally fixed that captcha problem. But an individual krieg squad no longer exists.
Ten resin "DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG INFANTRY SQUAD ADVANCING" cost £44.00 (€57.00, US$73.00) in 2018. The new kit has so many more options, will be easier to work with, and isn't resin/FW. This was the same cost as other ten men krieg squads.
For the five man command squad, which had a standard, a vox caster, two heavy weapons, and an officer with bolt pistol and power sword, it was £29.00 (€38.00, US$48.00). Except for the standard, you get all these options (plus actual weapon choices for the officer, more heavy weapons) and another five guys.
endlesswaltz123 wrote:They do, and they're £46 without upgrade options, which is a further £17, and still does not have all the options the new set does have.
Not defending the price of the new set mind, but it is a lot cheaper than Forgeworld still, and you don't get the chance of 20% via FLGS with Forgeworld
GaroRobe wrote:
Olthannon wrote: Well here's my question because I can't be arsed to go through that captcha problem on Forge World. What is the difference between the price of these 10 in plastic versus a squad from FW? Or what were they if they aren't available now?
I think my problem is I didn't have that normalisation. It's been over a year since I crept back into Warhammer but I'm still surprised at things like this.
EDIT: I'll be damned, they've finally fixed that captcha problem. But an individual krieg squad no longer exists.
Ten resin "DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG INFANTRY SQUAD ADVANCING" cost £44.00 (€57.00, US$73.00) in 2018. The new kit has so many more options, will be easier to work with, and isn't resin/FW. This was the same cost as other ten men krieg squads.
For the five man command squad, which had a standard, a vox caster, two heavy weapons, and an officer with bolt pistol and power sword, it was £29.00 (€38.00, US$48.00). Except for the standard, you get all these options (plus actual weapon choices for the officer, more heavy weapons) and another five guys.
Hey thanks both for pointing that out, totally missed that on my quick scroll through FW. I saw the Death Korp platoon thing and a bunch of tanks but missed the individual squad.
Don't get me wrong, I wasn't expecting the GW plastics to be the same price, but I was interested in seeing the difference.
I think this is not so much the actual factual price difference to my mind. It's more how much are you willing to pay for 10 basic human weenies, regardless of their kit options. To me at least, although it is great you get all those weapons options, it still only makes 10 soldiers.
Part of the block for me is that when I collected Guard, it was 18 pounds for a box of 20 cadians and I was comfortable with that price.
It was not difficult to build an infantry platoon for an army that had a lot of infantry.
These days, its 45USD for the ten cadians. They do have the upgrade sprue for heads, but the bodies are still weirdly proportioned.
All horde armies are becoming harder to collect. The new boyz kit is also $45 but at least the original kit is around $10 cheaper and has customization.
GaroRobe wrote: For the five man command squad, which had a standard, a vox caster, two heavy weapons, and an officer with bolt pistol and power sword, it was £29.00 (€38.00, US$48.00). Except for the standard, you get all these options (plus actual weapon choices for the officer, more heavy weapons) and another five guys.
Just so we're clear here, GaroRobe, are you meaning special weapons when you're saying heavy weapons here? I've not heard anyone mention a HWT in the Krieg box - in fact, I seem to recall that's one of the things Kan has been feeling smug about regarding the set.
GaroRobe wrote: Ten resin "DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG INFANTRY SQUAD ADVANCING" cost £44.00 (€57.00, US$73.00) in 2018. The new kit has so many more options, will be easier to work with, and isn't resin/FW. This was the same cost as other ten men krieg squads.
GW pricing is some weird mix of sprue count, sprue size, model size, points, and whatever they feel like that day.
GW pricing is fairly straightforward, its based on the production costs (including all relevant overhead and indirect cost) vs the expected lifetime kit sales, adjusted for payback period.
I'm sure that's a big factor, but I do think GW subsidise some kits versus others, I don't think individual kits are entirely priced on their individual costs and expected sales, it seems to me there is some account made for the range as a whole.
GaroRobe wrote: For the five man command squad, which had a standard, a vox caster, two heavy weapons, and an officer with bolt pistol and power sword, it was £29.00 (€38.00, US$48.00). Except for the standard, you get all these options (plus actual weapon choices for the officer, more heavy weapons) and another five guys.
Just so we're clear here, GaroRobe, are you meaning special weapons when you're saying heavy weapons here? I've not heard anyone mention a HWT in the Krieg box - in fact, I seem to recall that's one of the things Kan has been feeling smug about regarding the set.
Smug's the wrong word for what I'm feeling about the lack of a heavy weapons team.
Suspicious of. It's why I keep speculating that there's a big change coming to the Infantry Squad mechanism. Between the repacked Cadians and the Death Korps, neither of them received Heavy Weapons Teams--and the Cadians would have just been adding two sprues in.
Add in the drop of Brood Brothers from the GSC book and I'm feeling a bit more justified in my speculations. But the book is likely so far out for Guard that it doesn't matter.
Sacredroach wrote: Ha! Back in my day you could buy a blister of 5 metal Aspect Warriors for $8.99...and most metal characters were $9.99 each.
I also remember the GW Christmas specials where you could get a Fantasy or 40K bag of random metal miniatures (usually 50) for $25...
So $60 for 10 figures will always seem a little high in my mind...
You could also buy bits by the pound.
I try not to dip into pricing discussion as its a really sensitive and potentially difficult one...
But I wonder if folks really think about what goes into making minis. The days of 50p a model are long gone. Material costs have gone through the roof, shipping prices are almost unbearable and no one ever seems to think about the human cost. Do people who don't like paying £3-5 a figure not care that there is a team of humans behind every bit of the hobby that deserve to be paid for their efforts?
We all know that inflation and cost of living are going mad, those are going to impact as wages must rise to cover and even if not, do you really want artists, sculptors and painters to live on the bread line so you can buy a luxury product at bargain prices?
I just despair reading this sort of thing at times, I worry this race to the bottom is going to kill a lot of companies (GW will get through it of course, they are the big dog etc, but even so their staff deserve decent wages as much as anyone else).
I really never wanted to post this as I can forsee the comeback right away, yes GW make amazing profit and yes a lot of that goes to shareholders and higher ups, but ultimately, they like all of us are a business and are there to make profit so they can be in business year after year.
I always use the Mars Bar equation. When I was a kid, a Mars Bar was 20-30p, now they are more like £1. That's inflation for you. Minis have to go the same way.
£30-40 is about right these days for a box of figures. Ball park figure, for every £1 of cost to manufacture, you'll see £5 to the RRP to cover all the ways the pie gets cut.
Unless we can find a way to remove distro and retail from the industry without killing it (because we all know games without store/club presence are dead games walking as there will never be growth) then sadly these prices are inevitable and will only rise.
I see the same with 3D printing. Patreon and KS have skewed perception and expectation and it seems the general demand is for creators to make a loss. That's just not viable.
I'll go back to lurking and I don't look forward to the responses, but someone has to be the bearer of bad news I guess.
Side note - I get that buying horde armies at elite army prices sucks, that's a different kettle of fish, but ultimately, the material cost bears no relationship to the in game cost, so 10 figures is 10 figures regardless of if they cost 10 points or 100.
I really never wanted to post this as I can forsee the comeback right away,
Because it seems to be mostly a strawman. "Painters and sculptors on the breadline" is the most egregious part but it's littered with stuff to criticise tbh.
I am amused by your pricing discussion. GW pricing is due to having fantastic (for them) margins. There is actually an upshot here - other producers get to charge a lot more for their stuff than you would in a cut throat market. I suspect a lot of companies are thankful for GW style margins not Mars bar margins, because in that competitive world they would be stuffed when it comes to competing.
For the last 6 months profits were £88.2m on £191.5m turnover.
If they decided to go without profits for a year to wipe out competition they could cut prices by 40+%. Would they other players survive that? Now its pointless because the barriers for entry are tiny so they wouldn't pop back up, but that's amazing flexibility built into their turnover.
yes having a lot of bits in the box is great
paying for extra bits you never need, not so much
like having an additional command box with all the bits that you can buy if you need them and a flat troop box with the basic option is straight up better for a mass battle game
Side note - I get that buying horde armies at elite army prices sucks, that's a different kettle of fish, but ultimately, the material cost bears no relationship to the in game cost, so 10 figures is 10 figures regardless of if they cost 10 points or 100.
yeah, so GW should finally stopp using game cost as a margin to set the model prices and use the material costs instead
so a box of 10 models costs always the same not matter if those are 20 points per model or 5 points per model
I really never wanted to post this as I can forsee the comeback right away,
Because it seems to be mostly a strawman. "Painters and sculptors on the breadline" is the most egregious part but it's littered with stuff to criticise tbh.
Eyep. The idea that the increased cost of GW minis is because the increased prices are somehow going to the artists is laughable at best.
GW prices long predate increased shipping costs; and materials costs being 'through the roof' for this type of plastic is just a joke.
JonWebb wrote: Side note - I get that buying horde armies at elite army prices sucks, that's a different kettle of fish, but ultimately, the material cost bears no relationship to the in game cost, so 10 figures is 10 figures regardless of if they cost 10 points or 100.
It might be more expensive than it used to be, but plastic is still pretty cheap and not going to be a major driver of the cost. Many (most?) of the other costs go down if they can shift more of a given product. 10 models might cost the same in raw materials regardless of whether they're elite or not, but the cost of getting 20 models from raw materials to product in the customer's hand is no where near twice the cost of getting 10 models to the customer, a lot of the costs are fixed or diminish with volume.
I haven't looked closely at recent GW financial reports, but historically a huge slab of their costs are running their stores. If they weren't running their own brick and mortar store network but could retain the same sales, their profits would be (even more) insane.
Indeed, all the shipping and material costs etc did have an impact - the profits dropped 3.71% from £91.6m to £88.2m while turnover was increasing (so profit margin reduced by more than 3.71%).
Sacredroach wrote: Ha! Back in my day you could buy a blister of 5 metal Aspect Warriors for $8.99...and most metal characters were $9.99 each.
I also remember the GW Christmas specials where you could get a Fantasy or 40K bag of random metal miniatures (usually 50) for $25...
So $60 for 10 figures will always seem a little high in my mind...
You could also buy bits by the pound.
I try not to dip into pricing discussion as its a really sensitive and potentially difficult one...
But I wonder if folks really think about what goes into making minis. The days of 50p a model are long gone. Material costs have gone through the roof, shipping prices are almost unbearable and no one ever seems to think about the human cost. Do people who don't like paying £3-5 a figure not care that there is a team of humans behind every bit of the hobby that deserve to be paid for their efforts?
We all know that inflation and cost of living are going mad, those are going to impact as wages must rise to cover and even if not, do you really want artists, sculptors and painters to live on the bread line so you can buy a luxury product at bargain prices?
.
What bread line is this you speak off? As a sculptor I can tell you I have a luxury private island with all the bread and buns I could ever need in a lifetime. All in greenstuff though. Theres is little to no relevant money in this activity... Also is a dead end career for traditional sculptors.
Thanks for cheering me up though XD
What bread line is this you speak off? As a sculptor I can tell you I have a luxury private island with all the bread and buns I could ever need in a lifetime.
I beg you, teach us your way of bread and buns! We too would like our own Necker Islands!
Sacredroach wrote: Ha! Back in my day you could buy a blister of 5 metal Aspect Warriors for $8.99...and most metal characters were $9.99 each.
I also remember the GW Christmas specials where you could get a Fantasy or 40K bag of random metal miniatures (usually 50) for $25...
So $60 for 10 figures will always seem a little high in my mind...
You could also buy bits by the pound.
I try not to dip into pricing discussion as its a really sensitive and potentially difficult one...
But I wonder if folks really think about what goes into making minis. The days of 50p a model are long gone. Material costs have gone through the roof, shipping prices are almost unbearable and no one ever seems to think about the human cost. Do people who don't like paying £3-5 a figure not care that there is a team of humans behind every bit of the hobby that deserve to be paid for their efforts?
We all know that inflation and cost of living are going mad, those are going to impact as wages must rise to cover and even if not, do you really want artists, sculptors and painters to live on the bread line so you can buy a luxury product at bargain prices?
.
What bread line is this you speak off? As a sculptor I can tell you I have a luxury private island with all the bread and buns I could ever need in a lifetime. All in greenstuff though. Theres is little to no relevant money in this activity... Also is a dead end career for traditional sculptors.
Thanks for cheering me up though XD
Given we know GW pay their rules writers poorly, I imagine they also pay their sculptors/painters poorly while pulling in huge amounts of revenue, so maybe GW aren't the best example to use when it comes to relating high prices to needing to pay sculptors.
For those that consider getting the new Kill Team starter be aware that it doesn't contain the complete rules for neither Kommandos nor Veteran Guardsmen so you need the Kill Team: Octarius book on top. The gaming board is also just a paper mat.
SamusDrake wrote: So basically even those only interested in Kreigs and Kommandos will still need the compendium anyway.
No, the Octarius book is what you'd need.
The compendium only comes with rules for vanilla guard and vanilla orks, the Krieg/Veteran Guard and Kommandos come in the Octarius book.
EDIT: From Stahly's video it looks like the book that does come in the starter box does come with the datacards for the Kommandos and DKoK, it's just missing the kill team construction rules and special rules, so it's missing like 3 or 4 pages of the rules compared to the Octarius book.
It's a bit silly they didn't just include the damned Octarius book instead of the "recruit edition" book, it appears to serve the same purpose but just missing a few pages of rules.
I don't need any more Krieg, but it does come across as the most cost effective way to get them is to buy the starter set and sell off everything else.
I reckon you can get them down to £22-25 net after shipping and selling on facebook before eBay.
I think the market will flood with people trying to do this though so the window will be quick... The other factor is, can you be bothered?
That is selling the other stuff at non scalper prices BTW.
SamusDrake wrote: So basically even those only interested in Kreigs and Kommandos will still need the compendium anyway.
No, the Octarius book is what you'd need.
The compendium only comes with rules for vanilla guard and vanilla orks, the Krieg/Veteran Guard and Kommandos come in the Octarius book.
You also need the Tac Ops cards set - looks like the starter really is a starter; no advanced terrain, no equipment, predefined lists, that sort of thing.
So KT: Octarius = Starter + Cards + Octarius book + KZ: Octarius terrain, looks like.
SamusDrake wrote: So basically even those only interested in Kreigs and Kommandos will still need the compendium anyway.
No, the Octarius book is what you'd need.
The compendium only comes with rules for vanilla guard and vanilla orks, the Krieg/Veteran Guard and Kommandos come in the Octarius book.
You also need the Tac Ops cards set - looks like the starter really is a starter; no advanced terrain, no equipment, predefined lists, that sort of thing.
So KT: Octarius = Starter + Cards + Octarius book + KZ: Octarius terrain, looks like.
There's still Octarius box sets around in the UK from FLGS, picking up one of them is still the most cost effective method.
And I'm sure there are other places still with them, for potentially less. Crappy prices from GW when you take into account everything, but, you don't have to go down that route yet. There's still some in the US surely
The compendium only comes with rules for vanilla guard and vanilla orks, the Krieg/Veteran Guard and Kommandos come in the Octarius book.
EDIT: From Stahly's video it looks like the book that does come in the starter box does come with the datacards for the Kommandos and DKoK, it's just missing the kill team construction rules and special rules, so it's missing like 3 or 4 pages of the rules compared to the Octarius book.
It's a bit silly they didn't just include the damned Octarius book instead of the "recruit edition" book, it appears to serve the same purpose but just missing a few pages of rules.
Thanks for clearing that up.
I swear GW is going out of their way to encourage players to use Wahapedia, with this new edition of Kill Team. An expensive cockup from day one.
What's going on with the Kill team starter pricess?120AUD is actually slightly cheaper than the UK price at current exchange rates.
Has hell frozen over?
stahly wrote: For those that consider getting the new Kill Team starter be aware that it doesn't contain the complete rules for neither Kommandos nor Veteran Guardsmen so you need the Kill Team: Octarius book on top. The gaming board is also just a paper mat.
It was obvious even when KT21 launched that Octarius would be the most cost effective solution to getting everything needed to play the game (gauges, tokens, cards, rules etc).
tauist wrote: It was obvious even when KT21 launched that Octarius would be the most cost effective solution to getting everything needed to play the game (gauges, tokens, cards, rules etc).
Granted, but not having a "buy this, go play the full game" option, or having it only just for a small time window, is bloody stupid. And given they have really gone out of their way to make the doodads "mandatory" for the game, even moreso.
I don't know anyone playing KT 2021 and I suspect a lot of that is the initial put-off of spending £60 on rules alone if you weren't playing Krieg/Kommandos.
KT seasons will sell if they keep doing niche/interesting/limited-ish sculpts.
In terms of the game picking up? Hah, just not gonna happen if the core box doesn’t even give you the full rules and you have to buy again to get an extra few pages. Ridiculous.
JohnnyHell wrote: KT seasons will sell if they keep doing niche/interesting/limited-ish sculpts.
In terms of the game picking up? Hah, just not gonna happen if the core box doesn’t even give you the full rules and you have to buy again to get an extra few pages. Ridiculous.
That's basically it, yes. If this box had the full rules I probably would have picked it up. As it stands, no way no how.
I really never wanted to post this as I can forsee the comeback right away,
Because it seems to be mostly a strawman. "Painters and sculptors on the breadline" is the most egregious part but it's littered with stuff to criticise tbh.
Well I for one don't see what you are talking about. When I was flipping burgers at McD all of the profit the empire made went immediately into the soda machine's maintenance and in my pockets
SamusDrake wrote: So basically even those only interested in Kreigs and Kommandos will still need the compendium anyway.
No, the Octarius book is what you'd need.
The compendium only comes with rules for vanilla guard and vanilla orks, the Krieg/Veteran Guard and Kommandos come in the Octarius book.
You also need the Tac Ops cards set - looks like the starter really is a starter; no advanced terrain, no equipment, predefined lists, that sort of thing.
So KT: Octarius = Starter + Cards + Octarius book + KZ: Octarius terrain, looks like.
Indeed, the Recruit Edition booklet only has datacards, which is fine for the tutorial campaign, but for real Kill Team games you need the army list, equipment, ploys, and stuff, which is in the Kill Team: Octarius book. Would have been easier to swallow if the Kill Team: Octarius book wouldn't be 25 pounds.
Tac Ops cards are optional, as the rules are printed at the end of the Core Rules book, but it might be more convenient to have cards.
As pointed out in my review, it's still a good value set for the models and core rules alone.
SamusDrake wrote: So basically even those only interested in Kreigs and Kommandos will still need the compendium anyway.
No, the Octarius book is what you'd need.
The compendium only comes with rules for vanilla guard and vanilla orks, the Krieg/Veteran Guard and Kommandos come in the Octarius book.
You also need the Tac Ops cards set - looks like the starter really is a starter; no advanced terrain, no equipment, predefined lists, that sort of thing.
So KT: Octarius = Starter + Cards + Octarius book + KZ: Octarius terrain, looks like.
Indeed, the Recruit Edition booklet only has datacards, which is fine for the tutorial campaign, but for real Kill Team games you need the army list, equipment, ploys, and stuff, which is in the Kill Team: Octarius book. Would have been easier to swallow if the Kill Team: Octarius book wouldn't be 25 pounds.
Tac Ops cards are optional, as the rules are printed at the end of the Core Rules book, but it might be more convenient to have cards.
As pointed out in my review, it's still a good value set for the models and core rules alone.
Or buy the box for the models and terrain alone and gift rules to local charity...
Seems like GW went really far out of their way to create as many barriers to entry for KT right from the word go, from stupid shape-based measuring, to a mystifying array of rule books and supplements.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Seems like GW went really far out of their way to create as many barriers to entry for KT right from the word go, from stupid shape-based measuring, to a mystifying array of rule books and supplements.
Everything about GW in the last couple of years indicates that they looked at video games and wanted to emulate that market with its DLC and microtransactions. Why sell one or two main products when you can break them apart and trickle them out over a few years. And then when everyone has finally had enough of that garbage, you can say you've listened and will be streamlining the next edition, only to start the process anew.
Mr_Rose wrote: Dunno what’s mystifying about the mini rule book being mini? Lacking the fluff section just makes it more portable, which is a good thing, no?
The mini rulebook is fine, in fact I'll probably grab a mini rulebook even though I have the full book from the Octarius set already.
The problem is you get Krieg and Kommandos in the starter box but you have to separately buy the Octarius book to get the full rules for them. Then if you want a different Kill Team, you need the Compendium.
It makes it a bit unappealing to get into the game. I think there's a good argument for the Compendium simply being free or very cheap, and instead of the "recruit edition" book that you get in the starter they could have bundled the Octarius book instead. It would have made the game much more appealing to new players.
On top of all that, the rules just feel really poorly written, GW need to hire a good editor because there's sections of the rulebook that take multiple paragraphs to explain something that could be said in a couple of sentences.
Mr_Rose wrote: Dunno what’s mystifying about the mini rule book being mini? Lacking the fluff section just makes it more portable, which is a good thing, no?
Not really, no. A 96-pages book is not any more portable than a 144-pages book. Being smaller does, but not the page difference. And they could have just made a 144-pages small book, if they so wanted.
Mr_Rose wrote: Dunno what’s mystifying about the mini rule book being mini? Lacking the fluff section just makes it more portable, which is a good thing, no?
The mini rulebook is fine, in fact I'll probably grab a mini rulebook even though I have the full book from the Octarius set already.
The problem is you get Krieg and Kommandos in the starter box but you have to separately buy the Octarius book to get the full rules for them. Then if you want a different Kill Team, you need the Compendium.
It makes it a bit unappealing to get into the game. I think there's a good argument for the Compendium simply being free or very cheap, and instead of the "recruit edition" book that you get in the starter they could have bundled the Octarius book instead. It would have made the game much more appealing to new players.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Then if you want a different Kill Team, you need the Compendium.
Only if you want one of the Kill Teams there. By now we have three WD Kill Teams (usually more interesting than those in the Compendium), and I guess we'll see more.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Seems like GW went really far out of their way to create as many barriers to entry for KT right from the word go, from stupid shape-based measuring, to a mystifying array of rule books and supplements.
This is kind of why i've avoided GW games alltogether recently, blood bowl aside. I just really dislike how GW handles their rulesets. Especially compared to bolt action which has been a stable 2nd edition for years and years.
I do t see it as a barrier to entry, it’s a barrier to completionism. To start the game you can buy the rule book amd whatever supplement you want and you can play the game.
It's a matter of target audience, the starter set for the price is a great way to get people new to Games Workshop into Kill Team. It is functionally the same as the mid-level 40K starter, of no use to existing players other then a cheap way to get models but a cheap way in for those who are at the very beginning. The rules are self contained and have a basic handholding set of missions. Things like fluff are excised from the rule book as the target audience won't be involved in that yet.
Regarding the missing rules for the Orks and Guard this is also consistent with other starters and has one aim, to drive further sales. Which as a business is the whole point of the starter from GWs point of view. Again this in analogous to the 40k starter if you go on to want to play further with your models you have to buy a codes for the chosen army. For an existing player who is going to dive straight in with the game these slimmed do army lists will seem superfluous but that is precisely why they work for the intended audience of the set.
GW made a mistake making this set so close in content to Octarius to which it begs comparison and will always loose to. Ocatarius is effectively a boxed game, you need never buy another book or model and you can still play full fat Kill Team. It was fantastic value and exactly what some one who is already in GWs game space would want to get into the game. I am somewhat surprised they didn't continue Octarius as an 'advanced' starter set much in the same way they have different levels for 40K.
Where I think they have gone wrong with KT is trying to make it a 'two book' game but then making the second book so bloated. I like the idea you pick up the core rules and a book for your team. But whereas a codex in 40K works due to the size of the game and amount of fluff this will never be true for KT. GW needed to hit a price point for the second book so it has rules and fluss for two teams, missions a mini campaign. This is frustrating if you just want the Ork rules for example. It would be much better if the books were cheap and thin and just contained the content pertaining to one team. The you would only be spending say £5 or so on top of the box to upgrade to your teams full rules. Instead you get lumbered paying £25 for content you may not want.
Mr_Rose wrote: Dunno what’s mystifying about the mini rule book being mini? Lacking the fluff section just makes it more portable, which is a good thing, no?
Not really, no. A 96-pages book is not any more portable than a 144-pages book. Being smaller does, but not the page difference. And they could have just made a 144-pages small book, if they so wanted.
Mr_Rose wrote: Dunno what’s mystifying about the mini rule book being mini? Lacking the fluff section just makes it more portable, which is a good thing, no?
The mini rulebook is fine, in fact I'll probably grab a mini rulebook even though I have the full book from the Octarius set already.
The problem is you get Krieg and Kommandos in the starter box but you have to separately buy the Octarius book to get the full rules for them. Then if you want a different Kill Team, you need the Compendium.
It makes it a bit unappealing to get into the game. I think there's a good argument for the Compendium simply being free or very cheap, and instead of the "recruit edition" book that you get in the starter they could have bundled the Octarius book instead. It would have made the game much more appealing to new players.
But mostly this.
I don’t know what you guys are talking about really.
You get two books in the box. Core Rules, and the Recruit thing, which says it has fluff and rules for these two kill teams. So isn’t that everything you need?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Isn’t this what you’d need to make one of these two Kill Teams?:
“Discover the background behind the kill teams included in the box, including rules for fielding them in games of Kill Team”
Mr_Rose wrote: Dunno what’s mystifying about the mini rule book being mini? Lacking the fluff section just makes it more portable, which is a good thing, no?
Not really, no. A 96-pages book is not any more portable than a 144-pages book. Being smaller does, but not the page difference. And they could have just made a 144-pages small book, if they so wanted.
Mr_Rose wrote: Dunno what’s mystifying about the mini rule book being mini? Lacking the fluff section just makes it more portable, which is a good thing, no?
The mini rulebook is fine, in fact I'll probably grab a mini rulebook even though I have the full book from the Octarius set already.
The problem is you get Krieg and Kommandos in the starter box but you have to separately buy the Octarius book to get the full rules for them. Then if you want a different Kill Team, you need the Compendium.
It makes it a bit unappealing to get into the game. I think there's a good argument for the Compendium simply being free or very cheap, and instead of the "recruit edition" book that you get in the starter they could have bundled the Octarius book instead. It would have made the game much more appealing to new players.
But mostly this.
I don’t know what you guys are talking about really.
You get two books in the box. Core Rules, and the Recruit thing, which says it has fluff and rules for these two kill teams. So isn’t that everything you need?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Isn’t this what you’d need to make one of these two Kill Teams?:
“Discover the background behind the kill teams included in the box, including rules for fielding them in games of Kill Team”
They're cut down rules, it's missing a few additional pages you get in the Octarius book needed to construct the army list, equipment details and special rules. Tale of Painters gave a review which explains the differences...
Recruit Edition booklet with ... datacards for Veteran Guardsmen and Ork Kommandos (no army list or additional tac ops/spec ops rules like ploys, equipment or assets)
What you get in Octarius:
Octarius Campaign book with complete rules for Veteran Guardsmen and Ork Kommandos...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flinty wrote: I do t see it as a barrier to entry, it’s a barrier to completionism. To start the game you can buy the rule book amd whatever supplement you want and you can play the game.
I disagree, if you are trying to get someone new into the game (and not being dishonest about what you'll have to buy down the line) then saying you have to buy a $40USD on top of the starter to get the full rules for the models you already have, it's a bit of a turn off. Then $50 if you want to start another Kill Team that wasn't in the boxed set. Then you're probably going to want (though admittedly don't need) the cards, so another $18.
If you don't see that as a barrier to entry, okay you're free to hold that opinion, but I think it is a bigger barrier than need exist. A game like Kill Team should be an easy and cheap entry into 40k, I think the way GW have parted up things makes it less appealing to start the game.
In a world awash with board games and table top games, a lot of people don't just look at the price of the starter set, they look at how much they're likely going to spend to meaningfully get into the game. Things like "this contains EVERYTHING you need to play the included models" versus "this only contains the cut down version of what you need to play the included models" is a barrier. Likewise not having appealing options for people who want to start but don't want DKoK/Kommandos isn't great for getting new people into the game.
For what is meant to be a predominately miniature making company, they sure do seem hell bent on making as many ways to charge for rules as possible. The latest chapter approved is an absolute disgrace of a money grab, even by GW's standards and so is all of this...
IT COULD EASILY ALL BE IN ONE BLOODY BOOK!
Not to mention the inevitably cash grab expansion to allow mixed kill teams and commander units again.
I'm not one of the GW pessimists, but this really is actually just quite a nasty and mean cash grabbing move by them.
Ah I see.
Well GW still always get me for lovely models to sit and paint etc.
But I’ll get much more play from Deadzone and Stargrave most likely (and could even delve into the other Stargrave esque rule sets, Breach, Parsecs, whatever they’re all called)
Danny76 wrote: Well GW still always get me for lovely models to sit and paint etc.
Well, I have a (...multiple >_> ) 3d printer and a growing list of Patreons and designers. "Lovely models to sit and paint etc." is not exactly something I'm in need of, as each month they send me dozens to choose from ^_^.
The interesting part of a GW game should be the GW game, I believe. After all, they sell the miniatures separately. And in this case, well, interesting as it might be... the way they have decided to go about it sours me away from ever actually trying it out.
The fact that there is multiple books is very irritating and I don't see why its not in one book. It's an extremely baffling thing. All I want to play any Warhammer game is a rulebook and a codex. If its a small game, then one book should cover all of it.
However I will say though that the problem would be if it was all in one book you would get people complaining about the fact it was all in one book.
"Why do I have to buy all that and spend all that money just so I can find out about X? I don't care about all the other teams yadda yadda"
Danny76 wrote: Well GW still always get me for lovely models to sit and paint etc.
Well, I have a (...multiple >_> ) 3d printer and a growing list of Patreons and designers. "Lovely models to sit and paint etc." is not exactly something I'm in need of, as each month they send me dozens to choose from ^_^.
The interesting part of a GW game should be the GW game, I believe. After all, they sell the miniatures separately. And in this case, well, interesting as it might be... the way they have decided to go about it sours me away from ever actually trying it out.
Wait until they discover people stopped buying shelves of rulebooks that last 2 or 3 years but still buy minis...
New regiment boxes with specific rules cards and dices all in just one box that you cant buy individually. Great bundle.
kodos wrote: so you need Warhammer+ as well to get the WD rules if you started the game after the WD was released
by all this, this is not the small intro game for newcomers into the 40k universe
this is the game for veteran players who don't like the direction that 40k is going or don't like the gameplay any more.
I have to say, as a veteran player who doesn’t like the direction that 40k is going and doesn’t like the gameplay any more, kill team does appeal. I got octarius and the compendium so I could use all the minis I have.
I haven’t played a game yet though, lol. It doesn’t somehow seem worth the hassle of arranging a gaming evening to do a skirmish game. I’ve also found it annoying you don’t get enough guardsmen to make a full team or to build all the specialists in the box.
It looks like my future probably involves Titanichads, bolt action (or CoC) and not much 28mm GW stuff. And that’s probably enough.
Olthannon wrote: The fact that there is multiple books is very irritating and I don't see why its not in one book. It's an extremely baffling thing. All I want to play any Warhammer game is a rulebook and a codex. If its a small game, then one book should cover all of it.
However I will say though that the problem would be if it was all in one book you would get people complaining about the fact it was all in one book.
"Why do I have to buy all that and spend all that money just so I can find out about X? I don't care about all the other teams yadda yadda"
Flinty wrote: I do t see it as a barrier to entry, it’s a barrier to completionism. To start the game you can buy the rule book amd whatever supplement you want and you can play the game.
Whatever you think, multiple people in this thread have indicated it is a barrier to entry, in that they won’t even start playing this game because of stupid decisions re: splitting rules up.
Heck, I’m an ardent Necromunda fan but have never played the new versions because it requires more books to play than miniatures. This KT edition is dead from the start for me too as the book in the box should just have been the actual rulebook.
Fair point. I should have said that I dont understand why it’s a barrier to entry.
Regarding Necromunda, though, that’s patently untrue. There are a lot of books, but you dont need all of them to play. It’s the same here and In 40k. If you want access to every single rule for all of the factions, then it will get pricey, but you don’t need to do that to play the game.
Flinty wrote: Fair point. I should have said that I dont understand why it’s a barrier to entry.
Regarding Necromunda, though, that’s patently untrue. There are a lot of books, but you dont need all of them to play. It’s the same here and In 40k. If you want access to every single rule for all of the factions, then it will get pricey, but you don’t need to do that to play the game.
Well, I have also stopped following the new edition and reverting back to the old one, so...
No one posting on this board need an entry level game nor really can remember what entry level felt like--admit it.
Now unless GW has screwed up the CAD prices are double the UK prices, which is not their usual "conversion" rate. 120 CAD for the starter set is a good deal to dip your toe into a GW product. PS5 game: 90 CAD and you still need the nonexistent PS5. That's your video game comparison there.
GW starter sets are about teaching you to play the game, step by step. Sure the launch boxes are great deals in comparison to later starters, but they are aimed at different people. (I'd argue the Recruit book should have been in the Octarius box. Then again I think every latter box should include a mini rulebook...) For the 15 year old working at McDonalds who doesn't know about Dakka this set is both affordable and instructional.
Lastly, if you don't like a game or company why would you keep posting about it. Why don't you just move on to stuff you do like. Life's too short to be angry about your hobby. And remember your right to keep talking about it is other's right to call you out on it.
Chairman Aeon wrote: GW starter sets are about teaching you to play the game, step by step. Sure the launch boxes are great deals in comparison to later starters, but they are aimed at different people. (I'd argue the Recruit book should have been in the Octarius box. Then again I think every latter box should include a mini rulebook...) For the 15 year old working at McDonalds who doesn't know about Dakka this set is both affordable and instructional.
That might be true nowadays but it doesn't have to be, and it wasn't like that. The "starter set" used to be... you know. The game.
And you should probably add "...for a GW product" to that "affordable", as you can buy multiple full games for the price of that "starter".
GW starter sets are about teaching you to play the game, step by step. Sure the launch boxes are great deals in comparison to later starters, but they are aimed at different people.
This basically flips the approach taken with Indomitus and Dominion though. In those cases the limited launch boxes had more minis, no board, no terrain and the full hardback rules. It was designed for existing players who wanted a bunch of minis and the new edition rules. Then the starters added in terrain and a board but fewer minis.
Kill Team is the opposite: the launch box has the board and terrain, with the starter just having the scatter terrain and minis. The only similar thing between the starters is that they both have a separate book with tutorial minis.
Honestly, Octarius is the box for a total newbie that just wants to "get in to Kill Team" - it's not just the rules, but the full set of different size terrain means you can actually play interesting games. And if you want to expand it, Chalnath and future boxes give you that.
I'd say unlike the Command edition etc. 40K starters that are aimed at entirely new players, the audience for this KT starter box is "existing 40K players that want to get into Kill Team". Hence no terrain, and not too fussed about giving you all the faction rules as you'll probably get the compendium and play the faction you already own anyway.
Chairman Aeon wrote: Lastly, if you don't like a game or company why would you keep posting about it. Why don't you just move on to stuff you do like. Life's too short to be angry about your hobby. And remember your right to keep talking about it is other's right to call you out on it.
It’s entirely reasonable to complain about GW stuff if you like aspects of it but not others. For example, the models and terrain are great. GW genuinely does make better toys than anyone else. It’s therefore frustrating that they don’t make particularly good rules, or make odd decisions about what goes in a box. Do I need to mention the nonsense that was Pariah, for another example?
As an aside that may be relevant, the guy who designed Titanicus (my favourite GW game for what it’s worth) was paid a salary of something like £20-22k. When he asked for a raise they refused and told him he could go and work elsewhere. He did, because he could get a job in retail paying more so there was no risk to instead having a go starting his own business instead.
There are people who are prepared to work for £22k on an industrial estate in Nottingham. But the best people can far more elsewhere, so inevitably they’ll jump ship. I really don’t understand how it can make sense for a business as vastly wealthy as GW to pay its product designers such derisory amounts.
Mandragola wrote: I really don’t understand how it can make sense for a business as vastly wealthy as GW to pay its product designers such derisory amounts.
Because, as someone once said, they don't just want to make money; they want to make ALL of the money. The crux of capitalism really.
Mandragola wrote: I really don’t understand how it can make sense for a business as vastly wealthy as GW to pay its product designers such derisory amounts.
Because, as someone once said, they don't just want to make money; they want to make ALL of the money. The crux of capitalism really.
You could say that, being a publicly traded company, that's actually a legal mandate.
Mandragola wrote: I really don’t understand how it can make sense for a business as vastly wealthy as GW to pay its product designers such derisory amounts.
Because, as someone once said, they don't just want to make money; they want to make ALL of the money. The crux of capitalism really.
You could say that, being a publicly traded company, that's actually a legal mandate.
Ok this I actually know a little bit about. It isn’t true, at least in the UK, that companies are legally mandated to pay their staff as little as they conceivably can. Instead it’s well understood by most organisations that staff are a resource, essential to the company’s success, that you ought to look after. You pay them well so they don’t just go and work elsewhere. Bankers in the city of London aren’t working for £22k. I work in the charity sector and we pay our interns more than that.
Mandragola wrote: I really don’t understand how it can make sense for a business as vastly wealthy as GW to pay its product designers such derisory amounts.
Because, as someone once said, they don't just want to make money; they want to make ALL of the money. The crux of capitalism really.
You could say that, being a publicly traded company, that's actually a legal mandate.
Ok this I actually know a little bit about. It isn’t true, at least in the UK, that companies are legally mandated to pay their staff as little as they conceivably can. Instead it’s well understood by most organisations that staff are a resource, essential to the company’s success, that you ought to look after. You pay them well so they don’t just go and work elsewhere. Bankers in the city of London aren’t working for £22k. I work in the charity sector and we pay our interns more than that.
No, and it's just as well that I didn't say that (take a look at what I was answering to, the "they want to make ALL THE MONEY" assertion). They are just mandated to maximize their revenue, and have free rein regarding how.
Olthannon wrote: The fact that there is multiple books is very irritating and I don't see why its not in one book. It's an extremely baffling thing. All I want to play any Warhammer game is a rulebook and a codex. If its a small game, then one book should cover all of it.
However I will say though that the problem would be if it was all in one book you would get people complaining about the fact it was all in one book.
"Why do I have to buy all that and spend all that money just so I can find out about X? I don't care about all the other teams yadda yadda"
People will bitch and whinge no matter what.
People will bitch and whinge because it's GW, and GW will find a way to make it unappealing. All the rules in one book? That book will be absurdly expensive. Books look reasonably priced? You get 5 pages of relevant rules per book and need to buy several of them to play the game.
I don't really care if it's one book or two books or whatever, I just think it's silly that they didn't include the Octarius book (or similar) in the starter set when it's what you want in order to play the forces in the starter set. They made an entirely new book called "Recruit Edition" that serves the same purpose as the Octarius book but doesn't have all the rules. Even if the "Recruit Edition" book had the army rules, but less scenarios and fluff it would have been a better prospect. GW are nickle and diming it, but it's more like Jacksons and Benjamins.
Someone on the previous page mentioned having small books for each team that only cost a few bucks each, that would work fine, or bundle it all in one book and that would also be fine if that book was reasonably priced. The bitching and whining comes from GW's execution, not that one idea is inherently better or worse than the other.
Personally I don't really care from my own perspective, if I like the game I'll just buy it, the problem comes when trying to get new players into the game. Both from the perspective of the creeping costs, and also from the perspective that it gets confusing what books you actually need. And this is a game that literally just came out, it should be in its simplest form at this point, but we already have the compendium that doesn't contain the DKoK and Kommando rules, and the Recruit Edition book that does contain the DKoK and Kommando rules BUT not all of them.
You pile on top of this that GW rules are really poorly written. Most GW rulebooks are a pain in the arse to read because it seems they haven't had a decent editor go through them and clean up all the redundancies, clumsy sentences/paragraphs, etc.
All of that is true, but don't treat GW as if they are the only company to do anything like that.
Just in case this is missed, I'm not condoning what GW do, I think people need to make a better job of letting some things slide and kicking up fuss about things that matter.
Mandragola wrote: I really don’t understand how it can make sense for a business as vastly wealthy as GW to pay its product designers such derisory amounts.
Because, as someone once said, they don't just want to make money; they want to make ALL of the money. The crux of capitalism really.
You could say that, being a publicly traded company, that's actually a legal mandate.
Sink or swim I guess It's foolish to hope for some pro-consumer legislation nowadays innit ?
Olthannon wrote: All of that is true, but don't treat GW as if they are the only company to do anything like that.
Just in case this is missed, I'm not condoning what GW do, I think people need to make a better job of letting some things slide and kicking up fuss about things that matter.
Why would you want to let things slide? I mean, you can kick up a fuss about hobby things and things that matter. Both. No need to choose, here.
Mandragola wrote: I really don’t understand how it can make sense for a business as vastly wealthy as GW to pay its product designers such derisory amounts.
Because, as someone once said, they don't just want to make money; they want to make ALL of the money. The crux of capitalism really.
You could say that, being a publicly traded company, that's actually a legal mandate.
Sink or swim I guess It's foolish to hope for some pro-consumer legislation nowadays innit ?
Oh, they absolutely should be bound for that... but corpos tend to be the entities that fatten the politicians' coffers, so the incentive is pretty much to let boys be boys.
Flinty wrote: Fair point. I should have said that I dont understand why it’s a barrier to entry.
Regarding Necromunda, though, that’s patently untrue. There are a lot of books, but you dont need all of them to play. It’s the same here and In 40k. If you want access to every single rule for all of the factions, then it will get pricey, but you don’t need to do that to play the game.
Personal experience, I was put off from getting intro Newcromunda when the very first thing they released heralded an endless stream of DLC, and so many years down the line I wouldn't know where to start and frankly can't be bothered to sort things out even though I casually followed the releases for years.
Over at Warlord Games, if I want to get into Bolt Action I buy the rule book and the appropriate army book and I'm set. There are peripherals like campaign expansions for those that fancy them, but it's never unclear how you get the actual core game.
GW does its thing to make you spend as much as possible with them, which is understandable, but does so to the exclusion of any other consideration. They make you, the customer, do a lot of work for the benefit of throwing your money at them. That's a completely backwards approach. Usually you don't want to make it harder for your customers to hand over their money. But GW, in its own charming way, does just that with peerless passion.
Olthannon wrote: All of that is true, but don't treat GW as if they are the only company to do anything like that.
Just in case this is missed, I'm not condoning what GW do, I think people need to make a better job of letting some things slide and kicking up fuss about things that matter.
I wanted to let things slide, but then I tried to put Circle and Circle together and all I got was Error 404 - Geometric Shape Not Found.
Olthannon wrote: All of that is true, but don't treat GW as if they are the only company to do anything like that.
Just in case this is missed, I'm not condoning what GW do, I think people need to make a better job of letting some things slide and kicking up fuss about things that matter.
Why would you want to let things slide? I mean, you can kick up a fuss about hobby things and things that matter. Both. No need to choose, here.
C'mon ! You know we can only ever care about one thing at a time ! If you believe the choir, attention is a finite resource
Oh, they absolutely should be bound for that... but corpos tend to be the entities that fatten the politicians' coffers, so the incentive is pretty much to let boys be boys.
Cheers to that ! Nowadays bankers become world leaders and world leaders become consultant for investment firms
Flinty wrote: Fair point. I should have said that I dont understand why it’s a barrier to entry.
Regarding Necromunda, though, that’s patently untrue. There are a lot of books, but you dont need all of them to play. It’s the same here and In 40k. If you want access to every single rule for all of the factions, then it will get pricey, but you don’t need to do that to play the game.
It took them over 2 years to get out what was in the first Necro rulebook. With numerous errors and contradictions along the way. It may be a reductive summary for brevity but it's not untrue. That release strategy was a turd.
As an aside that may be relevant, the guy who designed Titanicus (my favourite GW game for what it’s worth) was paid a salary of something like £20-22k. When he asked for a raise they refused and told him he could go and work elsewhere. He did, because he could get a job in retail paying more so there was no risk to instead having a go starting his own business instead.
To add more context here, that guy (James Hewitt) said this event happened 5-6 years ago. He recently did an AMA on reddit and was keen to point out that he's in touch with former colleagues and that pay for game designers had improved since he'd left. £20-22k is not a current figure.
Flinty wrote: I do t see it as a barrier to entry, it’s a barrier to completionism. To start the game you can buy the rule book amd whatever supplement you want and you can play the game.
Whatever you think, multiple people in this thread have indicated it is a barrier to entry, in that they won’t even start playing this game because of stupid decisions re: splitting rules up.
This KT edition is dead from the start for me too as the book in the box should just have been the actual rulebook.
So yes, it is a barrier to entry.
I agree with Flinty. I do not understand why people are finding so many reasons to hate on the new Kill Team. Like Bolt Action or Saga, one needs two items to play KT '21...
A. the Rulebook (separately available) and some printouts from WarCom that provide terrain rules found in the Chalnath book. And
B. the source of one's faction's rules (i.e. the Octarius book, Chalnath book or one of 3 White Dwarfs). If your faction's bespoke rules haven't seen a release yet, then one has to decide if one wants to use the Compendium as a stop-gap or just wait.
What other rules does one need? Two publications does not seem like a barrier to entry to me. It is not as convenient as one book (i.e. KT '18), I'll grant you, but it is not unduly burdensome.
Flinty wrote: I do t see it as a barrier to entry, it’s a barrier to completionism. To start the game you can buy the rule book amd whatever supplement you want and you can play the game.
Whatever you think, multiple people in this thread have indicated it is a barrier to entry, in that they won’t even start playing this game because of stupid decisions re: splitting rules up.
This KT edition is dead from the start for me too as the book in the box should just have been the actual rulebook.
So yes, it is a barrier to entry.
I agree with Flinty. I do not understand why people are finding so many reasons to hate on the new Kill Team. Like Bolt Action or Saga, one needs two items to play KT '21...
A. the Rulebook (separately available) and some printouts from WarCom that provide terrain rules found in the Chalnath book. And
B. the source of one's faction's rules (i.e. the Octarius book, Chalnath book or one of 3 White Dwarfs). If your faction's bespoke rules haven't seen a release yet, then one has to decide if one wants to use the Compendium as a stop-gap or just wait.
What other rules does one need? Two publications does not seem like a barrier to entry to me. It is not as convenient as one book (i.e. KT '18), I'll grant you, but it is not unduly burdensome.
What you're looking at is a trick to cut the price of a starter set without actually losing money.
By including cut down rules, GW doesn't offer the full game. If you want that, in addition to the 85€ starter set you buy the 37.50€ full rule book to get the complete game. Sure, you could just buy the rule book alone. And a box of models. And the markers and measuring tools. At which point you're paying 20€ more than the starter set costs, while not getting the second team and the scatter terrain. The reasonable and economically sound choice is to buy the starter set and rule book. So while you're being baited with an 85€ price tag, you end up paying 122.50€ instead and get a completely superfluous cut down rule book that has no reason for existing. Nothing about this is good for the customer.
It's also another entry in the newer starter sets that include cut down rules only and don't offer the full game experience. When 40k 8th ed came out, GW offered free core rules that I believe were also included in physical form in the two smaller starter sets. If memory serves, according to GW the core rules of 40k do not included terrain or army composition rules, which is of course preposterous for a tabletop wargame. Prior to the release of AoS in 2015 it was understood that if you buy a starter set, you get the full core rules of the game. It's an expectation based on decades-long practice. Since then we have seen ever more of these cut down rule books and as a customer you now have to pay close attention to what you're getting, and have to consider that a starter set doesn't actually get you properly started anymore. I'd consider that predatory as it deliberately sows confusion as to what you're buying and you as the customer are virtually forced to get your information from third parties because GW will adamantly state that incomplete rules are a valid way of playing their games even if that goes against any practical experience.
Flinty wrote: I do t see it as a barrier to entry, it’s a barrier to completionism. To start the game you can buy the rule book amd whatever supplement you want and you can play the game.
Whatever you think, multiple people in this thread have indicated it is a barrier to entry, in that they won’t even start playing this game because of stupid decisions re: splitting rules up.
This KT edition is dead from the start for me too as the book in the box should just have been the actual rulebook.
So yes, it is a barrier to entry.
I agree with Flinty. I do not understand why people are finding so many reasons to hate on the new Kill Team. Like Bolt Action or Saga, one needs two items to play KT '21...
A. the Rulebook (separately available) and some printouts from WarCom that provide terrain rules found in the Chalnath book. And
B. the source of one's faction's rules (i.e. the Octarius book, Chalnath book or one of 3 White Dwarfs). If your faction's bespoke rules haven't seen a release yet, then one has to decide if one wants to use the Compendium as a stop-gap or just wait.
What other rules does one need? Two publications does not seem like a barrier to entry to me. It is not as convenient as one book (i.e. KT '18), I'll grant you, but it is not unduly burdensome.
What you're looking at is a trick to cut the price of a starter set without actually losing money.
By including cut down rules, GW doesn't offer the full game. If you want that, in addition to the 85€ starter set you buy the 37.50€ full rule book to get the complete game. Sure, you could just buy the rule book alone. And a box of models. And the markers and measuring tools. At which point you're paying 20€ more than the starter set costs, while not getting the second team and the scatter terrain. The reasonable and economically sound choice is to buy the starter set and rule book. So while you're being baited with an 85€ price tag, you end up paying 122.50€ instead and get a completely superfluous cut down rule book that has no reason for existing. Nothing about this is good for the customer.
It's also another entry in the newer starter sets that include cut down rules only and don't offer the full game experience. When 40k 8th ed came out, GW offered free core rules that I believe were also included in physical form in the two smaller starter sets. If memory serves, according to GW the core rules of 40k do not included terrain or army composition rules, which is of course preposterous for a tabletop wargame. Prior to the release of AoS in 2015 it was understood that if you buy a starter set, you get the full core rules of the game. It's an expectation based on decades-long practice. Since then we have seen ever more of these cut down rule books and as a customer you now have to pay close attention to what you're getting, and have to consider that a starter set doesn't actually get you properly started anymore. I'd consider that predatory as it deliberately sows confusion as to what you're buying and you as the customer are virtually forced to get your information from third parties because GW will adamantly state that incomplete rules are a valid way of playing their games even if that goes against any practical experience.
The funniest part is that you believe they'd be losing money if they included the full book in a 85€ starter set with no new sprues.
Geifer wrote: <snip> So while you're being baited with an 85€ price tag, you end up paying 122.50€ instead and get a completely superfluous cut down rule book that has no reason for existing. Nothing about this is good for the customer.
<snip>
The funniest part is that you believe they'd be losing money if they included the full book in a 85€ starter set with no new sprues.
Just to be clear, the rulebook you get is cut down but does contain all the rules (at least that's my understanding), it's cut down in the sense they've removed the fluff section, but all the rules are there.
It's the secondary book, the one that contains the army rules called "Recruit Edition" that is effectively a cut down version of the Octarius book, but lacks the complete rules for making an army.
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JohnnyHell wrote: Two rulebooks + website content to play a game where you command a handful of models... and you're excusing that? OK. It's a choice I guess.
That's part of my issues with it. This is a simple game where you put 5 to 10 models on the table, we're not talking about a game where you're putting down 10's of models with infantry and tanks that will probably take you a full evening to play.
Yet already we have this unnecessarily confusing situation where you need a rulebook, and a book for your team, but no not the book that came in the box ("recruit edition"), and no not that other book ("compendium"), the Octarius one (coz, ya know, it's totally obvious that if you want to play "Death Korps of Krieg" you should buy a book called "Octarius").
As someone who doesn't religiously follow GW, I didn't even realise until the last couple of pages of this thread that there's also rules released in three White Dwarfs. So the rules for your team could exist in one of 7 different places... for a game that was only just released.
As I mentioned before, I don't really care whether the game needs 1 rulebook or 2 rulebooks, to me that's the strawman to how GW have poorly managed the rules to this game in a way that simultaneously nickle and dimes people while making it as confusing as possible.
Flinty wrote: I do t see it as a barrier to entry, it’s a barrier to completionism. To start the game you can buy the rule book amd whatever supplement you want and you can play the game.
Whatever you think, multiple people in this thread have indicated it is a barrier to entry, in that they won’t even start playing this game because of stupid decisions re: splitting rules up.
This KT edition is dead from the start for me too as the book in the box should just have been the actual rulebook.
So yes, it is a barrier to entry.
I agree with Flinty. I do not understand why people are finding so many reasons to hate on the new Kill Team. Like Bolt Action or Saga, one needs two items to play KT '21...
A. the Rulebook (separately available) and some printouts from WarCom that provide terrain rules found in the Chalnath book. And
B. the source of one's faction's rules (i.e. the Octarius book, Chalnath book or one of 3 White Dwarfs). If your faction's bespoke rules haven't seen a release yet, then one has to decide if one wants to use the Compendium as a stop-gap or just wait.
What other rules does one need? Two publications does not seem like a barrier to entry to me. It is not as convenient as one book (i.e. KT '18), I'll grant you, but it is not unduly burdensome.
What you're looking at is a trick to cut the price of a starter set without actually losing money.
By including cut down rules, GW doesn't offer the full game. If you want that, in addition to the 85€ starter set you buy the 37.50€ full rule book to get the complete game. Sure, you could just buy the rule book alone. And a box of models. And the markers and measuring tools. At which point you're paying 20€ more than the starter set costs, while not getting the second team and the scatter terrain. The reasonable and economically sound choice is to buy the starter set and rule book. So while you're being baited with an 85€ price tag, you end up paying 122.50€ instead and get a completely superfluous cut down rule book that has no reason for existing. Nothing about this is good for the customer.
It's also another entry in the newer starter sets that include cut down rules only and don't offer the full game experience. When 40k 8th ed came out, GW offered free core rules that I believe were also included in physical form in the two smaller starter sets. If memory serves, according to GW the core rules of 40k do not included terrain or army composition rules, which is of course preposterous for a tabletop wargame. Prior to the release of AoS in 2015 it was understood that if you buy a starter set, you get the full core rules of the game. It's an expectation based on decades-long practice. Since then we have seen ever more of these cut down rule books and as a customer you now have to pay close attention to what you're getting, and have to consider that a starter set doesn't actually get you properly started anymore. I'd consider that predatory as it deliberately sows confusion as to what you're buying and you as the customer are virtually forced to get your information from third parties because GW will adamantly state that incomplete rules are a valid way of playing their games even if that goes against any practical experience.
The funniest part is that you believe they'd be losing money if they included the full book in a 85€ starter set with no new sprues.
I don't believe that. To clarify, GW basically doesn't sell starter sets for under 100€ anymore. I think Blood Bowl is the only exception to this. But if they can make it appear like that, even though they know full well that for a satisfactory experience they'll sell a book in addition to the starter set, they get to have their seemingly cheap starter set and still get money in the usual price span of starter sets.
Geifer wrote: <snip> So while you're being baited with an 85€ price tag, you end up paying 122.50€ instead and get a completely superfluous cut down rule book that has no reason for existing. Nothing about this is good for the customer.
<snip>
The funniest part is that you believe they'd be losing money if they included the full book in a 85€ starter set with no new sprues.
Just to be clear, the rulebook you get is cut down but does contain all the rules (at least that's my understanding), it's cut down in the sense they've removed the fluff section, but all the rules are there.
It's the secondary book, the one that contains the army rules called "Recruit Edition" that is effectively a cut down version of the Octarius book, but lacks the complete rules for making an army.
"At least that's my understanding" is my big problem with this. I don't know. Like, I don't have a clue. I don't know what I'm buying. That's something that should really not be unclear.
There is confusion and I have every reason to believe it's not the actual game. GW is trying to shortchange me. I don't know how exactly, but I don't trust them because of that suspicion.
So I don't buy into it, and I don't bring friends into it. That's gakky business in my opinion. But apparently somebody at GW thought this was the way to go.
On reading the gnu review of the recruit edition book I actually dislike it a bit less. It’s effectively a book to teach you to play kill team, which is sort of fine. It takes you through some initial skirmishes and shows you how to play. It should have given you the proper lists but it does it’s own thing, which has some value.
GW also actively sabotaged mordheim by splitting rules up into different publications in its efforts to drive sales (I guess?)
At least town cryer was a somewhat interesting idea, presented at a time when magazine subscriptions were still a relevant form of media.
It’s something that could possibly even work again, with legitimate effort put into design etc…
Instead the KT core rules book has a typo in the very first sentence on the lore section.
Still, KT has good game design elements and is our most popular skirmish game and between BattleScribe and a few other plays it’s not a huge headache to rationalize the rule set. The fan mad site for creating datacards is good too!
This recruit box is fantastic for a recently released models. You get half of the rule but at least it appear to be the correct rule, and a bunch of scatter terrain, books and dice as freebie.
Unlike the Necromunda Hive War box, the models is old, the total saving cost is abysmal as you got nickel and dimes for book, cards, dice, and the completely worthless ZM wall for essentially only 2d game, and you get the new, made up gang list(aka wrong rule) slap on top.
It is not a bad box, compared to other GW games
not on the level of Underworld or Warcry, but not bad
it is just compared to Skirmish game boxes in general were it gets worse
not having the full rules for the 2 teams inside is a big no, as well as those rulese mot being in the compendium
as a new player were you don't know yet which factions you like, how they play etc.
needing 2 books in addition to find out while other games have the full rules in the 2 player starter isn't the best way to sell to new players, but does not matter much for veterans who already know what they want
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Is it confirmed that the Rogue Trader star striders and geller pox are coming back for Kill Team?
No official confirmation AFAIK but GW reps were asked about it in some *con event, and they said something like "it would really be a shame not to reintroduce them to the game"
Even if the models aren't currently available, it would be good for the rules to be.
I don't think I've looked at the sprues from my set recently - how mixed are the two forces across the sprues? Could they get individual releases, or would the Rogue Trader box need a reprint (or a M2O release of both forces)?
The next box is Corsairs vs CSM, as the rumours predicted. Someone on B&C pointed out that the link to the preview article from Facebook references corsairs vs CSM. Broken the link to illustrate.
ImAGeek wrote: The next box is Corsairs vs CSM, as the rumours predicted. Someone on B&C pointed out that the link to the preview article from Facebook references corsairs vs CSM. Broken the link to illustrate.
Red Corsairs versus Eldar Corsairs would certainly be a cool box to me. Wonder if they will be a new kit for the CSM or an expansion sprue like the pathfinders (which, would probably be fine, the new CSM kit is pretty good). Ideally it would be a few marines and traitor guard/ lost and the damned - but I think that would be unlikely.
Wanted the new Kommandos, left with the big starter priced at 115€. Sigh, I can't resist stickers with reduced prices.
But more Ork terrain to go with the go cart Ork buggy boxed game stuff can't hurt, right? And even though it's the English rulebook included, is this game fun for kids 8-11, of which at least wants to play me in Blitz Bowl?
Sabotage! wrote: Red Corsairs versus Eldar Corsairs would certainly be a cool box to me. Wonder if they will be a new kit for the CSM or an expansion sprue like the pathfinders (which, would probably be fine, the new CSM kit is pretty good). Ideally it would be a few marines and traitor guard/ lost and the damned - but I think that would be unlikely.
A regular kit with an extra sprue added for KT options does seem to be the MO. The DKoK is a basic infantry squad, with a third sprue for the KT veterans parts. The Pathfinder kit likewise.
I would not be at all surprised to see one of the existing kits (maybe Chosen or the standard CSM) with an extra sprue of parts to make KT specialists.
I highly doubt there will be more than one unit type. This edition has only had releases based on a single box per side, to my knowledge.
Binabik15 wrote: And even though it's the English rulebook included, is this game fun for kids 8-11, of which at least wants to play me in Blitz Bowl?
Well, if the child enjoys Blitz Bowl, perhaps the next step should be the Fireteam boardgame. If the kid likes and comprehends the game play here, then move on to Kill Team '21.
Binabik15 wrote: And even though it's the English rulebook included, is this game fun for kids 8-11, of which at least wants to play me in Blitz Bowl?
Well, if the child enjoys Blitz Bowl, perhaps the next step should be the Fireteam boardgame. If the kid likes and comprehends the game play here, then move on to Kill Team '21.
I would agree. I love Blitz Bowl, but Kill Team is significantly more complicated. I think Fireteam would be a good test to see if the kids like it first.
Well, that single minis leak from the new box sure caused quite a buzz! I hope we get the full loadown of the box tomorrow night.. been hot and bothered all weekend LOL
Danny76 wrote: Well GW still always get me for lovely models to sit and paint etc.
Well, I have a (...multiple >_> ) 3d printer and a growing list of Patreons and designers. "Lovely models to sit and paint etc." is not exactly something I'm in need of, as each month they send me dozens to choose from ^_^.
The interesting part of a GW game should be the GW game, I believe. After all, they sell the miniatures separately. And in this case, well, interesting as it might be... the way they have decided to go about it sours me away from ever actually trying it out.
Well feel free to send me a good load of STLs so I can have some nice ones too
But yeah overall I get what you mean, it’s not the same as the “olden days” for GW that’s for sure.
Has there ever been such a cross over in releases between KT and 40K before in terms of theming? We have Eldritch Omens out in two weeks time and KT: Nachmund within the next 4 (if the quarterly release schedule is kept up).
Two large boxes of Eldar and Chaos at the same time seem like they would somewhat compete with each other. Particularly as the KT box comes out second. Being the 'smaller' game I can see those who have already paid out for a lot of new Eldar and/or Chaos to not be ready for another box just for a couple of units. I can see the Corsairs, who from what I understand are already somewhat niche in an Eldar army, being easy for many to say they will wait for the individual release. Harder to say for Chaos as we don't know what unit it will be.
I've never built any Eldar before so I'm excited for the Corsairs (who look great) but I'd assume in the minority in that I will get the box because it is a KT release rather than being a fan of either faction.
I guess they’re appealing to two different groups with the boxes, I don’t think they care if 40k players don’t buy the Kill Team box as long as they’ve bought the other one.
If they get that player to just buy the individual box that’ll still be a good chunk extra and save boxes for people going the KT route
