I think Spiders a more versatile than Hawks for Deploy Scramblers and Engage on all Fronts. If you are getting limited space to move, Spiders have great mobility even without deep striking.
Wraithblades (Axe and Shield) with Protect and Fortune can really absorb a ton of attacks and Orks will likely not have much to stop you from casting. A largish unit of 8-10 and get them onto midboard objectives to hold the line and help contest the objective.
Sarigar wrote: I think Spiders a more versatile than Hawks for Deploy Scramblers and Engage on all Fronts. If you are getting limited space to move, Spiders have great mobility even without deep striking.
Wraithblades (Axe and Shield) with Protect and Fortune can really absorb a ton of attacks and Orks will likely not have much to stop you from casting. A largish unit of 8-10 and get them onto midboard objectives to hold the line and help contest the objective.
I don't have spiders just yet - HATE the miniatures. Was hoping we might get new ones this year so i'm putting off buying them...
Wraithblades are a love of mine but they're an expensive unit in a 1,500 point game. Again, at present I only have 5 at my disposal, but i have considered them.
QUESTION: If i run two war walkers in a single unit with Aeldari Missile Launchers, can I roll for their shooting at the same time? At D6 blast, i could have multiple shots at auto 6 rather than D6 but if the one shot kills enough minis to get the unit below 11, obviously that goes out of the window if i roll for them one after the other. My thinking is that if theyre part of the same unit they can fire at the same time? Bit of a grey area.
Regarding Spiders: Fair point. I enjoyed first painting them in the I'd 90s when they were released. I did not enjoy painting the those models in 2020 (I no longer owned the models from the 90s).
A unit of War Walkers armed with the same weapons targeting the same unit can be fast rolled together. I don't see it as a gray area in the rules as it is in line with the shooting rules. For myself, the rule is clear as blast weapon rules interaction occurs right after after you selected a target.
Managed to squeeze in the wraithblades and a spiritseer. Dropped vehicles again (let's see if it pays off!)
I also upped the hawk unit size to 9. I fugure 36 shots + grenade packs will hopefully be a good way to clear out some Boyz. Even more so if i can combine it with a 20man guardian blob.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Smashed it!! The vehicleless list has prevailed once more. Was a very very close game for two turns and then Eldar started to pull ahead.
Secondaries were scramblers, EOAF and Psychic Ritual. Managed to score well on them all and even do well on Primaries (5/5/15/15)
Not sure you will be happy with the Wraithblades in this army build, but we shall see. They were a 'meh' unit for me until I began tailoring the list to better accommodate them. Hunters of Ancient Relics and increasing the unit size were significant (Fortune and Protect being critical). 10-15 Attacks hitting on 4 rerolling 1s net you 5-6 or 7-8 hits for 260 points (including Spiritseer in order to credit the reroll 1s).
The list appears somewhat tailored against a specific Ork build. Your score suggests what some Craftowrld players are doing; patiently thinning down key units in order to score primary points in the latter part of the game. Good luck!
Also, your list is not vehicle less; it is tankless. War Walkers are a very efficient vehicle in the Craftworld codex.
I've been running Irrylith and 7-8 Spectres and really am liking this combo.
9 Wraithblades are very strong. I'll be curious to see how you like the Craftworld traits with that detachment. I utilize Hunters of Ancient Relics in my Wraith heavy detachments, but completely understand your selections.
I use one 8-10 strong Storm Guardian squad, but I also choose Deploy Scramblers and this unit picks up the deployment zone action most of the time (1 x 5 Warp Spiders incomplete the other two actions).
Overall, it looks very solid, barring secondary objective choices.
Im right in thinking that irylith isn't affected by his own aura or EC ?
You know, I haven't really considered it. No idea what mision format we going to run yet. I haven't bothered with the CA mission pack and i don't intend to. So probably one of the brb missions.
Was mostly concentrating on targeting maxium primary.
Probably something along the lines of table quarters and not sure what else. Maybe bring it down if he brings some vehicles.
Im thinking if I should start wraiths on the table or in DS and same with guardians. I took quicken with the idea of running the wraiths up the mid-board.
Unless you can shut down your opponent from scoring secondaries, you generally will not win games if you don't actively score your own secondaries. That is why building the army around the primary and secondary is very important. It took me a few months when 9th was released to really learn this was not 8th edition or ITC missions.
I almost always start my Wraithblades on the table. They are pushed to an objective in the midfield area and typically stay near that objective. I may use Matchless Agility if I want to ensure they get to the desired location on turn 1. They end up in assault on either turn 1 or 2 and hit quite hard (I use an Autarch and Hunters of Ancient Relics). In fact, I played a game in my weekly league where my 8 strong unit got charged by 5 Salamander Terminators with Thunderhammer/Stormshield on turn 2. On turn 3, a Smash Captain and Assault Marines assaulted. Between assault phases in turns 2 and 3, the Wraithblades killed the Terminators and Assault Marines. They then left combat so the Smash Captain could be shot. At the end, I still had 1 Wraithblade on the objective uncontested. Fortune is a must, then Protect. Remember things like Lightning Fast Reactions or powers such as Enhance/Drain. It makes a huge difference with this unit. I've found a lot of folks really underestimate them.
Unless you can shut down your opponent from scoring secondaries, you generally will not win games if you don't actively score your own secondaries. That is why building the army around the primary and secondary is very important. It took me a few months when 9th was released to really learn this was not 8th edition or ITC missions.
I almost always start my Wraithblades on the table. They are pushed to an objective in the midfield area and typically stay near that objective. I may use Matchless Agility if I want to ensure they get to the desired location on turn 1. They end up in assault on either turn 1 or 2 and hit quite hard (I use an Autarch and Hunters of Ancient Relics). In fact, I played a game in my weekly league where my 8 strong unit got charged by 5 Salamander Terminators with Thunderhammer/Stormshield on turn 2. On turn 3, a Smash Captain and Assault Marines assaulted. Between assault phases in turns 2 and 3, the Wraithblades killed the Terminators and Assault Marines. They then left combat so the Smash Captain could be shot. At the end, I still had 1 Wraithblade on the objective uncontested. Fortune is a must, then Protect. Remember things like Lightning Fast Reactions or powers such as Enhance/Drain. It makes a huge difference with this unit. I've found a lot of folks really underestimate them.
Im now considering either taking 2 units of DA or splitting the stormies into 2x8 man squads for raise the banners.
Sarigar wrote: you generally will not win games if you don't actively score your own secondaries.
This.
I have only played 3 games of 9th so far (darn covid) but have quickly learned that secondaries are how Eldar make up their shortfalls for primaries.
Engage on all fronts and Deploy Scramblers have always been strong for me so far. can generally score 25 points from these quite easily.
I also used Wraithblades with Matchless agility to ensure they get onto objectives quickly. I also keep a Spiritseer nearby to buff them (rerolling 1s helps with -1 to hit axes and a protect spell will improve their saves to 2+ 3++).
Unless you can shut down your opponent from scoring secondaries, you generally will not win games if you don't actively score your own secondaries. That is why building the army around the primary and secondary is very important. It took me a few months when 9th was released to really learn this was not 8th edition or ITC missions.
I almost always start my Wraithblades on the table. They are pushed to an objective in the midfield area and typically stay near that objective. I may use Matchless Agility if I want to ensure they get to the desired location on turn 1. They end up in assault on either turn 1 or 2 and hit quite hard (I use an Autarch and Hunters of Ancient Relics). In fact, I played a game in my weekly league where my 8 strong unit got charged by 5 Salamander Terminators with Thunderhammer/Stormshield on turn 2. On turn 3, a Smash Captain and Assault Marines assaulted. Between assault phases in turns 2 and 3, the Wraithblades killed the Terminators and Assault Marines. They then left combat so the Smash Captain could be shot. At the end, I still had 1 Wraithblade on the objective uncontested. Fortune is a must, then Protect. Remember things like Lightning Fast Reactions or powers such as Enhance/Drain. It makes a huge difference with this unit. I've found a lot of folks really underestimate them.
Im now considering either taking 2 units of DA or splitting the stormies into 2x8 man squads for raise the banners.
Breaking down a Storm Guardian squad into two squads is a better option, IMO. As actions prevent a unit from doing other things, it helps to mitigate how many points of the army are out of action for the turn, so to speak.
What is nice about cheap Guardians is they sucker opponents to invest more resources than anticipated. I run one squad of Storm Guardians in my lists and they always garner Deploy Scramblers in my deployment zone or jump out into a risky area to get onto an objective. Many opponents gauge what it will take to destroy them, then get surprised when I put Celestial Shield on them. My opponent's decision gets upended and they nearly always fall into the trap of expending more resources to destroy that one unit, which takes pressure off other units. For 56-70 points, they are one of my MVP units.
What this also illustrates is that the game is about scoring points on primary and secondary. I've got two units in my army that very rarely ever shoot, but garner me 10-18 points easily every game (Storm Guardians and Warp Spiders).
Sarigar wrote: you generally will not win games if you don't actively score your own secondaries.
This.
I have only played 3 games of 9th so far (darn covid) but have quickly learned that secondaries are how Eldar make up their shortfalls for primaries.
Engage on all fronts and Deploy Scramblers have always been strong for me so far. can generally score 25 points from these quite easily.
I also used Wraithblades with Matchless agility to ensure they get onto objectives quickly. I also keep a Spiritseer nearby to buff them (rerolling 1s helps with -1 to hit axes and a protect spell will improve their saves to 2+ 3++).
Good luck!
The spirit seer has to be withn 6" of the enemy to give rerolls. With pile ins and such its often suicide. I need to get an autarch on bike built and at least primed asap. Thinks hes a much better choice as he can allow rerolls for everything else. The wraiths are there to hold the line rather then dish out damage. With EC and wrath of dead I think it should be enough offensively.
I've been using an Autarch with Wings to accompany the Wraithblades. Rerolls of 1 to hit and Expert Crafters to pick up a dice roll of 2, which statistically will occur adds up. Although, I'm curious if it is statistically better to take Wrath of the Dead.
Autarch + 8 Wraithblades with Hunters of Ancient Relics and Wrath of the Dead. Reroll 1's to hit and to wound. The Autarch gets built in reroll 1's to hit and reroll all wounds with Shard of Anaris.
Sarigar wrote: I've been using an Autarch with Wings to accompany the Wraithblades. Rerolls of 1 to hit and Expert Crafters to pick up a dice roll of 2, which statistically will occur adds up. Although, I'm curious if it is statistically better to take Wrath of the Dead.
Autarch + 8 Wraithblades with Hunters of Ancient Relics and Wrath of the Dead. Reroll 1's to hit and to wound. The Autarch gets built in reroll 1's to hit and reroll all wounds with Shard of Anaris.
Foot-tarch with falochus wing is the poor mans jet-tarch :
I am not dead set on the list or wrath of the dead. I really like masters of concealment for wraiths. Hunters of ancient relics is really good though.
The FW book wraithseer D cannon is 3+d3 damage correct (like the glaive)?
I think its still showing as old D6 on BS.
Crafter91 wrote:I don't have spiders just yet - HATE the miniatures. Was hoping we might get new ones this year so i'm putting off buying them...
Sarigar wrote:Regarding Spiders: Fair point. I enjoyed first painting them in the I'd 90s when they were released. I did not enjoy painting the those models in 2020 (I no longer owned the models from the 90s).
Shrugs, I love the models. I dont' see any reason to slag classic Jes Goodwin sculpts. I've been painting mine and they are a fun to paint and look great on the table.
Crafter91 wrote:I don't have spiders just yet - HATE the miniatures. Was hoping we might get new ones this year so i'm putting off buying them...
Sarigar wrote:Regarding Spiders: Fair point. I enjoyed first painting them in the I'd 90s when they were released. I did not enjoy painting the those models in 2020 (I no longer owned the models from the 90s).
Shrugs, I love the models. I dont' see any reason to slag classic Jes Goodwin sculpts. I've been painting mine and they are a fun to paint and look great on the table.
Perhaps 'hate' was a bit strong - but i'm not a fan. Partially down to the sculpts but mostly down to the lack of poses available. I'll hold out for fresh sculpts for a bit longer. My Hawks have been reliably scoring scramblers so far so i'm not in a rush to replace them.
Phoenix Lord wrote: I love the concept and lore of spiders, I love their gameplay but the sculpts need a rewamp as a lot of others things in craftworld army.
Im in the "I like spiders" camp. SO much so I managed to snag and hunt down 15 metals ones
Phoenix Lord wrote: I love the concept and lore of spiders, I love their gameplay but the sculpts need a rewamp as a lot of others things in craftworld army.
Im in the "I like spiders" camp. SO much so I managed to snag and hunt down 15 metals ones
Don't get me wrong I have ten of them, they're Always been my favourite troops but I want a rewamp of all the metal/finecast models.
Phoenix Lord wrote: I love the concept and lore of spiders, I love their gameplay but the sculpts need a rewamp as a lot of others things in craftworld army.
Im in the "I like spiders" camp. SO much so I managed to snag and hunt down 15 metals ones
Don't get me wrong I have ten of them, they're Always been my favourite troops but I want a rewamp of all the metal/finecast models.
We all do. Even people who hate Eldar do to shut us noble xenos players up
Yeah. After painting up a unit of plastic Banshees, it was a day and night difference in the quality and improvements over the older sculpts. Ill definitely buy all new sculpts to replace my older models (I'm still using original Reaper and Spider sculpts in my current army).
I won't be updating any time soon, not when I'm almost finished painting my own squad of Warp Spiders.
My aspect army is pretty much done save for some Shadow Spectres.
Thought I'd ask for some advice. I'm looking to pick up a Forgeworld vehicle or two and I'm curious as to what's hot right now? I know rules will likely change in the future but I'd like to know what FW craftworlds vehicle has generally been pretty good and also fun? I'm also tempted by rounding out my army with a titan but one of those is unlikely to see a game.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I won't be updating any time soon, not when I'm almost finished painting my own squad of Warp Spiders.
My aspect army is pretty much done save for some Shadow Spectres.
Thought I'd ask for some advice. I'm looking to pick up a Forgeworld vehicle or two and I'm curious as to what's hot right now? I know rules will likely change in the future but I'd like to know what FW craftworlds vehicle has generally been pretty good and also fun? I'm also tempted by rounding out my army with a titan but one of those is unlikely to see a game.
After a couple months of playing with 2 x 8 Wraithblades and 2 Wraithseers in an army, I dialed back the assault to add in more shooting. Stark difference! I faced off against AdMech in two games and in both, my army struggled to hold objectives. The army had gone from scoring 40-45 Primary objective points down to 20. The ability to absorb fire and contest objectives disappeared and improved ability to shoot only led to my army getting exposed to return fire, which had me picking up units pretty quick. This was the issue I had months ago which led me to using the Wraithblades and these games were a great reminder of why I did so.
new on these forums but playing and following the elder meta pretty intensely for the last couple of months. I've been building a lot of stuff and testing a lot of lists.
Wraith stuff, heavy psyker detachment (with smite-seer, supersmite from conclave, smite from spirit seer, children of prophecy), melee variants (oh, I love those) with hunter of relics, spears, wraith blades and even banshees. guardian bombs, serpent spam, hyper mobile off of hawks, spears and various jet bikes, assurmen setups, fire and fade variants and all sorts of jank.
only thing I haven't tried yet is that dire avenger experiment I want to do; 3-5x 8man squads with hail of doom and avenging strikes and then 3x fire prisms. idk why not, actually, as I own the models and can see they have good datasheets.
many of those things can be combined mostly by using a battalion and a patrol detachment. Few, strong (as strong as eldar go these days) units with good movement.
Alas, tomorrow im playing vs orks and I've been looking into that brigade build for a long time now. Now I feel its time because between green tide and da jump I simply can't see myself keeping those green beasts away from an elite shooting army no matter how well it manuvers. Melee seems hopeless against them too as those spears, banshees or whatever will just be swarmed and killed the turn after they hit.
so therefore I've come up with this build that seeks to play the mission, is able to screen, take actions, deep strike, be all over the place to contest board control. It has pretty good psychic (I cut away a second farseer to make the fire and fade 10 man firedragon squad instead. they ar so good with swift step), can deal with armor, shoot a lot of shuriken at hordes, shift area of focus very easily and lastly, except for the ten man fire dragon blob, it maxes out on crafters rerolls which is never a bad thing with eldar : )
nb. The build used to have star cannons on all the available slots and I might go back to that, but I just feel shurikens are almost as good. especially vs orks.
You can use Forewarning after Da Jump is used; check under the Rare Rules section for repositioned units. However, you really don't have a unit that can take advantage of the stratagem.
Be careful regarding deep strike if you face off against a horde style build. It is not terribly difficult to position unit to zone out most of the table to where you can't place the unit.
If you have Shadow Spectres, it would be a unit I'd highly recommend when facing an army with large units, such as Boyz Mobs. A single unit of 10 Spectres puts out 60 shots against a 30 strong Boyz mob. Combine with some type of reroll dice mechanic and it likely will remove a unit even with a 5++ from the Mek with KFF.
Example:
It takes some thought with positioning, but if Orks go first, Da Jump is likely to be used turn one; try to anticipate where it will be placed and ensure you have safely placed a unit of Shadow Spectres and the Farseer. This is where Phantasm is very handy. Even without Guide/Doom cast, you should get 40 hits, 26 wounds, and likely no save as they will be outside the KFF range. Or, 17 casualties if within KFF range.
Yeah, i dont have that unit in my list, sadly. Da jump is a big problem. If they swarm me with it I die and my deniers won't be able to help t1. Forewarned is a great tool here. problem is that even if I had the big unit of shadow spectres I wouldn't dare to let them stand anywhere out in the open to be used with forewarned. they would just die to burnabombers t1 if I did and they are too good to sacrifice like that before the game starts.
actually, im going to put everything into the tanks during deploy as I am pretty sure he is bringing two burnas. I have no idea how to protect my two bike warlocks.
the wave serpent with the dragons in it should be my center piece and can hopefully draw tons of fire and delete a unit every turn. maybe not. but they'll be a threat to his heavier stuff, mek guns and such. I slabbed on a vectored engine for the minus 1 to hit. that will make orks hit on sixes mostly.
what do you think about going so heavy on shurikens? it used to be star cannons, but I figured why actually? with shuriken cannons I can advance every turn with more than half my army, Its stil s6 and I won't waste all those points on paying for d3 dam that doesn't make a difference anyway mostly. plus its one third more shots vs that horde build I might see.
the obvious lack here is spears. but im just reluctant with going 8 spears into a blob of 2x30 boys. they are so frail on the next turn..
I would rethink a few areas of your list after playing a couple of Ork games recently.
First off, Hail of Doom is great, but if he's playing Goffs, almost his entire army will have a 6+ invuln, making that -1 AP pretty redundant. It's also only for 12" range or less, by which point, you're in combat territory.
Green tide is scary but it can be avoided. Remember that he can only activate it when his squad is as half strength or less. Consider, shooting at the unit over two turns - stop when it gets to half strength and then finish the following round. If you leave even one ork left, the strat happens and you're in trouble.
For Da Jump, Sarigar has it covered off, but be aware of where you place your farseer as it'll need to be close to the firing unit.
Consider finding the points for Aeldari missile launchers on your walkers and vehicles. They're blast so on those big units, you're getting auto 6 shots rather than D6 or the 3 you would gen from shuri cannons - missiles are also hitting at AP-1 - and you also have the starshot option for heavier units such as trukks, deff dredds etc. It's a cracking all round heavy weapon. Personally i would ditch the flimsy fire dragons and in exchange, kit out your vypers, serpents etc with them. They'll hurt.
Last but not least - for horde armies, smite and executioner are your friends! Guide is awesome, BUT if you ditched Hail of Doom in place of Expert Crafters, you're getting some free rerolls and it opens up a space to take executioner.
That's just me - I will be interested to see how your game goes either way! Hope my input has been of some use
Crafter91 wrote: I would rethink a few areas of your list after playing a couple of Ork games recently.
First off, Hail of Doom is great, but if he's playing Goffs, almost his entire army will have a 6+ invuln, making that -1 AP pretty redundant. It's also only for 12" range or less, by which point, you're in combat territory.
Green tide is scary but it can be avoided. Remember that he can only activate it when his squad is as half strength or less. Consider, shooting at the unit over two turns - stop when it gets to half strength and then finish the following round. If you leave even one ork left, the strat happens and you're in trouble.
For Da Jump, Sarigar has it covered off, but be aware of where you place your farseer as it'll need to be close to the firing unit.
Consider finding the points for Aeldari missile launchers on your walkers and vehicles. They're blast so on those big units, you're getting auto 6 shots rather than D6 or the 3 you would gen from shuri cannons - missiles are also hitting at AP-1 - and you also have the starshot option for heavier units such as trukks, deff dredds etc. It's a cracking all round heavy weapon. Personally i would ditch the flimsy fire dragons and in exchange, kit out your vypers, serpents etc with them. They'll hurt.
Last but not least - for horde armies, smite and executioner are your friends! Guide is awesome, BUT if you ditched Hail of Doom in place of Expert Crafters, you're getting some free rerolls and it opens up a space to take executioner.
That's just me - I will be interested to see how your game goes either way! Hope my input has been of some use
Deathskulls have the 6++. Goffs have exploding 6s in melee.
All Orks can take a KFF for a 5++ in an aura, though.
The Burna Bomma is a challenge regarding the Warlock Skyrunners. Possibly deploy them apart so the Bommas need to go toward separate directions if they want to take out those models. The Bomma is a 155 point model and would likely move towards the largest group of models to inflict mortal wounds. Spread the threats out, screen out areas so the model cannot be placed in key locations.
AML is definitely worth looking at over Shuriken Cannons, barring points issues.
Thanks for the good stuff, guys. Much appreciated. AMLs are super good. But they cost twice as much and then im back to more standard eldar bataleons with few good units like i usually play Them.
Also, with s4 I’m not sure it’s that much better vs orks. But prolly a bit. I often see myself ending up starshotting with them vs t4 anyway. S6 with the shuriken seems perfect. But maybe I’m wrong.
Also, I love that the war walkers, vipers and serpents will all be advancing all the time with shurikens.
Yeah, hail is not good enough. Should be masterful shots probably. I have crafters, tho doesn’t the first post state that? My mistake then. This list is build for that trait. Except for the outlier 10 Man dragon squad all other units seek to exploit that trait. Ok, star cannons are better for this with fewer shots and more dam but still.
That dragon squad could be swooped for a spears unit, but I think it has merrit. And the list lacks anti-armor shots. Those orks will have to deal with it and it’s not that easy to get rid off. With vectored they’ll be hitting on fives and sixes.
I had a second Farseer, a executionor seer on bike, (and 7 banshees) in there instead of the dragons and yeah it’s probably better. I just feel if you run 4 psykers ypu need children of prophecy to reliably make Them count.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ok, guys. how about this?
the lack of mobility is compensated for with a unit of spiders to secure engage t1. the 10 banshees seem stupid straight up, but I had to lock in a slot of elites to compensate for the missing dragons and they fit on that wave serpent that still has mobility. i love all the missiles, but I still see a lot of merit in the first build. more flexibility. better movement.
I think that's a much better list for an Ork game, but ultimately it's about what you feel most confident with.
I would always go for number of shots over power with horde armies. I understand your feelings about movement with heavy weapons, but against an Ork list, i wouldn't necessarily want to advance too much anyway. Hold back for a turn or two and fire. Don't help him get into combat. Weaken units and focus on your secondaries, then move out for primaries from turn 2/3.
yeah, exactly. score engage, scramblers and a third. Get position. try to screen da jump and go to work from my backline. I miss my third falcon now. maybe that blob of banshees should actually be a huge blob of something I can use with forewarned. I just dont know what! maybe ten dire avengers? or 20 guardians. nah, too short range. hmm..
Automatically Appended Next Post: also, I dont think hell go all horde. he will bring 3 mek guns, 2x30 boys, 3 dreads, a few truks packed with tank bustas. maybe 2 burnas. some mega nobz with saws. defkoptas. he is death skulls so he actually likes to try and shoot something with those rerolls.
On the shuriken thing: is 3 shots of s6 really that much worse than 6 shots of s4? yeah, probably. and the missile range is better.
btw: your right in regards to movement. I dont want to push too much, actually. but I can't let him take all the objectives either. tried to out gun them once with my crimson fists. just stayed back, secured back objectives and tried to dakka him off the board and pick up mid field points later. not possible. but ok, elder are faster. so maybe.
damn this matchup has me all twisted up! im a right in assuming that orgs are favored here?
Sounds like a similar list to what I played against and AMLs worked a treat.
Tip that worked for me to deal with his hard hitters if you're concerned; deploy your first three units on one side of the table - something good like your wave serpents that he will want to target with his mek guns etc. Bait him to deploy and then phantasm to the other side of the board.
People often mirror what you're deploying. If you deploy very heavily on one side of the board, they do the same to try and match your fire power. The Phantasm then throws off everything he has just placed.
It may even open up the opportunity to score a centrefield objective on the other side, and it'll mean he has to move around to get the best use of his guns.
damn this matchup has me all twisted up! im a right in assuming that orgs are favored here?
I don't think so. For now, Orks are playing with an 8th Ed codex, same as we are. Eldar hit harder, have better BS and in most cases have better saves.
Your biggest issue is being outnumbered in close combat, so avoid it for as long as you can. Keep tabs on the number of Boyz he has left in each unit. If you've killed 14 and don't think you'll be able to finish off the remaining 16, DON'T TRY.
If you fail to wipe the entire unit, he will Green tide you. Wait until the next turn and then finish them then - even if it means giving away an objective for a round.
Score your primaries late - don't get put off if he scored them well in his first two turns. Once you've whittled down his units, they'll be yours to start taking from 3 onwards.
yeah. sounds good. In regards to that sentinel unit to use with forewarned.. maybe I should put the two war walkers in a single unit and place them far back with the farseer. thats 24 shoots of off forewarned when he pops da jump : )
Scoundrel80 wrote: yeah. sounds good. In regards to that sentinel unit to use with forewarned.. maybe I should put the two war walkers in a single unit and place them far back with the farseer. thats 24 shoots of off forewarned when he pops da jump : )
I keep a farseer near my Dark Reapers for guide purposes but it would help for this reason too. Which is another good point, if they're guided the turn before, they will still be guided during his turn. Don't forget!
yeah, but problem with reapers is, that they won't be outside their car and within line of sigt t1 vs that army. The burnas will wipe them if they do and thats 3-400 points gone right there.
so in my search for a matching gunnery unit to spit tons of shots with forewarned that can potentially also survive a bombing run, 2-3 war walkers was the best I could find. let me know if you have anything better : )
Sarigar wrote: Hope you have good luck against Orks. Lost against them today in my local league. Such a tricky army for me to figure out how to play against.
My Ork OP says he wants a 'competitive' rematch following our last game. Says he played his last list for fun more than anything so wants another crack with a stronger list.
What was it that tripped you up? Might give me an idea of what to expect.
I have not played against them much which leads to not being familiar with their strengths and weaknesses.
Terrain was a bit too light. Whoever went first was going to have a significant advantage. It happened to be Orks this time. Easy fix for next game.
The stratagem to bring back a Boyz mob. If you shoot at a large unit, two things need to be in place (1) be prepared to overkill it so it cannot be brought back. (2) If you opt to shoot at a large unit and know you can't destroy the unit, ensure the Ork player does not have 3 CP.
9 inch charges from deep strike seem long, but Orks get to reroll one or both dice. This should not be underestimated.
Mek Guns are really points efficient, but this also had a lot to do with having light terrain.
Game wise, I opted to take a Farseer Skyrunner and Warlock Skyrunner, something I rarely ever do. Then, I misplayed them and separated them, losing the option of Seer Council and also did not take Focus Will. I had multiple cast failures in the first two turns which really cannot happen for Craftworlds to compete. Wraithblades without Protect and Fortune are not overly useful when they get whittled down to become fairly ineffective before reaching assault on turn 2. Definitely going back to the Farseer and Warlock Conclave I typically run.
Should have placed the Shadow Spectre unit in reserve. This was a key unit and lost three to the kamikaze Ork bomber. Then, I had little to target on the bottom of turn one. Turn 2, they were destroyed. Terrible decision making on my part.
Dice rolls are dice rolls, but not killing Ghaz in a single turn, which I had set up, didn't help matters much.
The stratagem to bring back a Boyz mob. If you shoot at a large unit, two things need to be in place (1) be prepared to overkill it so it cannot be brought back. (2) If you opt to shoot at a large unit and know you can't destroy the unit, ensure the Ork player does not have 3 CP.
Like i said before, i have avoided this by killing the unit over two turns. As long as you don't drop the unit below half strength, he can't use the strat.
I forgot to add the deployment zone being another factor. Dawn of War is my least favorite. However, with 20/20 hindsight, I should have put three units on each flank, then use Phantasm to build a refused flank. This is the one deployment zone where Phantasm can pay off in a big way.
I should not be at a disadvantage by simply going second. Conversely, either should my opponent. This was a terrain issue we decided on. Both of us recognized how important getting first turn would be and which was a huge indicator the terrain was poorly laid out. Easy fix for next game.
Trying to strategically drop a unit to 15 models to prevent use of the stratagem is a bit more difficult than simply stating to do so. 3 x 30 Boyz which will be in assault on turn 2 adds further complications. 15 Boys with Warpath cast on them is still 60 attacks. With Goffs (what I faced), throw in exploding 6s. So, dropping a unit down to 50% is not an appealing prospect. Craftworld does not have much that can withstand that many attacks on the charge without significant degradation.
My opponent deep struck Ghaz, which I felt was strange until he hit me on turn 2 in assault (reroll one or both dice for charge is huge). That meant I could do nothing until after Ghaz got to hit first. Then, in my turn 2, I set up to one turn kill Ghaz, but dice rolls went wonky. Ghaz then crushed another unit. I found this way more useful than other opponents who foot slogged Ghaz across the board. He was very easy to pick out and avoid.
Mek Gunz can be swingy, but they hit on 4s with exploding 6s and generally get a 5++. 40-65 points on this platform is fairly efficient as I'm trading down if I'm shooting Dark Reapers or even War Walkers at them.
In the end, it was a solid lesson against an experienced opponent. He outplayed me and I've played against him several times with his Dark Angels. I'll chalk it up as gaining more experience. This league finishes up with a 2000 point tourney in a few weeks, then I go to a two day event afterwards. All is good.
So the game godt postponed and is going down tomorrow morning.
how about this list? I've gone back to the firedragon bus. I just want to try it out. 40k is also about that : ) they will hopefully soar through his line getting hit only on 5-6 typically with vectored and delete a unit per turn. Maybe they'll make him make bad decisions.
then I dropped the third falcon to get 3 war walkers instead of 2. gave them 2 AML each and I put them in one unit to abuse forewarned..
so I still have super high speed on vipers and serpents and have a new long range flexible gunnery line unit with the missile walkers.
bad thing is that I dont abuse crafters as much due to the war walkers being together. and that my reason to actually play a brigade is diminishing as I dont exploit all the slots that was my initial plan to combine with crafters. What do you think?
ok sorry for spamming. Went back to bataleon. allowed me to drop a scorpions unit to make it 5x6 dire avengers for a bit more oomph with bladestorm and moar missile launchers. Masterfull shots now.
Scoundrel80 wrote: ok sorry for spamming. Went back to bataleon. allowed me to drop a scorpions unit to make it 5x6 dire avengers for a bit more oomph with bladestorm and moar missile launchers. Masterfull shots now.
Masterful shots is the only thing tripping me up here - i can't see it benefitting you all too much. An ork army isn't the type to hide behind cover - it'll just march forward and charge.
I would be tempted by students of vaul - you have a lot of vehicles so to have all of them regain a lost wound every turn will be useful.
Superior shurikens might be useful for your Dires since you have a lot of them - the extra range will help get some extra shots in early.
Failing that - diviners of fate for a 6+ invun is good or if you want to ensure your powers have a better chance of being successful, children of prophesy is useful to take. Guaranteed smite and no chance of a snake eyes perils.
Overall though your list is looking very promising!
Have you thought about your secondaries? And which units you'll use to fulfil them?
Just finished the game and it went amazing. The list was bonkers. straight up. Everything just came together.
And yeah, good catch. Masterful didn't trigger once. vs a broad meta its still probably the best but vs orgs its just not relevant. And especially not once he knows : )
i was able to hide well as he had first turn. had farseer and a squad of 3x AML walkers in the center to deal with deep strikes and just shoot. he one shotted the one he could get LOS on and that was really annoying. he raced up with right ork blob advancing 10 and looked well. he da jumped 10 other bois up on the center objektive and managed to take out a viper too, I think. but then he hesitated with his left big blob. that was a mistake I think.
then my turn came and I was able to get the whole psychic thing going with seer council into force of will, jinx, doom onto his 28 man boys. guide on the 2 remaining walkers. then I just focused the advancing bois down and managed to kill the ten man in the center too. my three psykers killed the last one with their underslung shurikens.
so no green tide and with his last blob out of the game at that point he needed da jump to work and missed id. then all his tractor cannons (auto hit was a good call from him and they did some dam on my tanks t1) whiffed completely and then I could just mop up really.
my left wave serpent couldn't avoid the 3d6 charge from his war boss on bike and his 5attacks would have killed it had I not rolled 3 sixes for amour save. so It limped, fell back with feigned and the boss then got killed by a falcon and shuriken fire from the limping serpent.
he deep struck with some stuff and those 2 remainging walkers blasted the living hell out of everyone and their mothers. I can't imagine how it would have been if the third hadn't died early. Thanks for the advice on that unit. Just bonkers.
he succeeded in deeping in some commandoes that I couldn't shoot at with the walkers and they almost killed a warlock. I rolled wel, tho and he lived with one w. he then fell back and my opponent was unlucky with the cut em down, very frustrating for im, and then I just regrouped, zipped in som vipers and tanks and cut the attackers down. same thing with the war boss. even if he had killed that serpent I would just have flown the second falcon over and killed him still, I believe. Felt like the list always had an answer.
The fire dragons performed well too. They only melted a dead dread, 1mek gun and 2 defkoptas, but was a constant threat and just a nasty presence to get down.
That vectored/shuriken serpent build is really good. I even gave them star engine to be all over the place but I would prolly save the ten points in a more serious game. Maybe not actually, idk.
the vipers ended up filling very different roles. 2 where back line holders at some point, one scored engage deep behind enemy lines and they did some good killing in general. they even popped a mek gun. s6 is good.
with this build you can have everything but 6 avengers in cars t1. thats so amazingly good.
going to 6 man avenger squads feels so good with bladestorm. they just pack that more oomph and often take out chaff and help clear objectives. they were SO good. Id love testing 8 mans with avenging strikes and maybe hail of doom..
I love how the falcons perform with AML and shuriken cannon. spirit stones and six avengers in them. Such a versatile package.
scorpions came down, did scramblers and just stuck in there with stalker. didn't do much but plinked some pistol fire and engaged on all fronts. I mean, for him to actually dedicate the fire and shoot at that 5 man squad. so annoying.
the psyker package is a bit boring. no executioner/smite beast, no fortune. No spirit seer for full smite, no conclave. but it was lean and strong support utility.
the army could zip all over the board all the time. had he gone full horde that peony wouldn't have been as good, but in this game it was and it felt very strong all in all.
I feel its the best list I've played in a long time. so weird to not have 9 spears, 10 blades or one of the classic centerpieces. the army has no melee at all. instead, it relies on feinged retreat and mobile fire power. I guess you could just exchange the firedragosn/serpent for a big blob of spears or some wraith axes or what ever.
also, compared to having 3x nightspinners or 3x fire prisms (I haven't played that much my self but iver seen other people do it all the time) I feel my gunnery package of 2x falcons and 3xAML WWs was much more flexible. probably less punchy too, though. but they fit well with the rather awkward punch of that dragons unit. it just worked.
Scoundrel80 wrote: ok sorry for spamming. Went back to bataleon. allowed me to drop a scorpions unit to make it 5x6 dire avengers for a bit more oomph with bladestorm and moar missile launchers. Masterfull shots now.
Masterful shots is the only thing tripping me up here - i can't see it benefitting you all too much. An ork army isn't the type to hide behind cover - it'll just march forward and charge.
I would be tempted by students of vaul - you have a lot of vehicles so to have all of them regain a lost wound every turn will be useful.
Superior shurikens might be useful for your Dires since you have a lot of them - the extra range will help get some extra shots in early.
Failing that - diviners of fate for a 6+ invun is good or if you want to ensure your powers have a better chance of being successful, children of prophesy is useful to take. Guaranteed smite and no chance of a snake eyes perils.
Overall though your list is looking very promising!
Have you thought about your secondaries? And which units you'll use to fulfil them?
wow. nice! students of vault would have ben AMAZING! never thought about that one. it even triggers off of vipers??!
in regards to secondaries I run engage, scramblers and an opponent/mission/terrain-dependent. I ended up with raise the banners but it differs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Argive wrote: Did you feel you needed vectored and star engines? Interesting choice.
it was so good. never used it before. always try to keep the tanks lean. normally I just slap on matchless agility when they try to focus down a serpent. but now that I moved from star cannons to shurikens on the serpents they can advance every turn and a constant -1 on those targets that my opponent HAS to engage is just so cool. my choice was somewhat neutered by the fact that he brought traktor cannons, but it still worked wonders.
also, with this build my cp economy was on point for once. maybe because I dint have to matchless every turn.
For games where you want other than Shuriken Cannons on vehicles, you can purchase CTM so you can continue to advance and shoot. May not be quite as useful vs other armies as others don't have BS5 as a standard. But, the option is there.
I played a couple games with the updated points. I utilized 10 Wraithblades, 10 Reapers, and 5 Dragons giving me 75 more points in the list. I won't claim it is the equivalent of a 9th edition Codex, but the point changes certainly helped.
Hoping to see a new Codex in the Fall/Winter, but the points changes will work well enough for the next 4-6 months.
I'm quite happy with all the changes for us, as everything needed it. Was surprised reapers dropped though.
I've just saved 60pts off of my latest list with them and I'm thinking 2nd warlock to make it a conclave or 3 wind riders. This would give me another fast unit for engaging on all fronts or one less character in my army. Hmmmm..... choices.
Right at the bottom. I've been having a look and I'm kind confused as to whether this document is the new FAQ or do we still need to look at previous FAQs.
Right at the bottom.
I've been having a look and I'm kind confused as to whether this document is the new FAQ or do we still need to look at previous FAQs.
It's been there since the previous FAQ. It's also when Banshee Power Swords got a slight bump.
Sadly, it has not been enough for me to pay the extra points to upgrade Storm Guardians with Flamers.
I won't say much experience, but I've played two games against the New AdMech.
I don't think my opponent had the most optimized list, but he did bring 10 Robots. With Lucius and some characters, he was able to essentially Veil of Darkness an assault kitted robot unit. For charging,he rolls 3d6, drops th lowest dice, then can reroll. Screens are important.
Lucius can also put a unit in deep strike.
Robots also are 7 wounds, which impacts Craftworld shooting as we tend to have d3 as our stronger firepower.
Their shooting is still, strong, but not full rerolls from previous. I've heard the Rangers can be very potent, but I do not have first hand experience with that.
Hi everybody!
Not exactly newbie but as spanish forums are utterly dead, I´m glad to return to a place where people still chat and discuss about their hobby Next weekend will play against Deathguard for the first time, I got a list in mind not tailored at all, and benefits greatly of the new points in the FAQ.
Going for psychic superiority, objective control and flexibility.
Feel free to comment with cruelty and please forgive my english
How are Howling Banshees doing for everyone? Im about to test some out coming out of the webway strike on turn 1. You are allowed to use the webway strike stratagem turn 1 correct?
Jaume wrote: Hi everybody!
Not exactly newbie but as spanish forums are utterly dead, I´m glad to return to a place where people still chat and discuss about their hobby Next weekend will play against Deathguard for the first time, I got a list in mind not tailored at all, and benefits greatly of the new points in the FAQ.
Going for psychic superiority, objective control and flexibility.
Feel free to comment with cruelty and please forgive my english
Night Spinner [8 PL, 135pts]: Twin Shuriken Catapult
Support Weapons [8 PL, 140pts] . Support Weapon: D-cannon
. Support Weapon: D-cannon
++ Total: [107 PL, 9CP, 1,997pts] ++
Created with battlescribe.net]BattleScribe
Welcome!
It is a very unique list, especially the battalion. I am familiar with the Spearhead type build and I think it will perform in the manner that you would like.
The battalion is not a build I am familiar with. I am a big fan of the 2 model Conclave. You have units built for Engage on all Fronts and the new Deploy Scramblers (If You are using GT 2021 missions). It is an interesting combination that I would be curious to read how it fares. Wraithseers can be a solid mid board control element, but admit I have not run three.
Be wary of shooting at Mortarion. I thinking is a bit of a trap and the model is a bit avoidable.
Best of luck.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Black Knight wrote: How are Howling Banshees doing for everyone? Im about to test some out coming out of the webway strike on turn 1. You are allowed to use the webway strike stratagem turn 1 correct?
Jaume wrote:Hi everybody!
Not exactly newbie but as spanish forums are utterly dead, I´m glad to return to a place where people still chat and discuss about their hobby Next weekend will play against Deathguard for the first time, I got a list in mind not tailored at all, and benefits greatly of the new points in the FAQ.
Going for psychic superiority, objective control and flexibility.
Feel free to comment with cruelty and please forgive my english
Good luck! My advice is to stay clear. Once you're close enough, you'll be at -1 toughness, which means pretty much everything will wound you on 2s.
Lots of wraiths seem to be the way to go.
I played against DG a few weeks back and got absolutely hammered.
Black Knight wrote:How are Howling Banshees doing for everyone?
Depends on the opponent. If you can wipe them on a single charge, then great, but their T3 doesn't bode well for them lasting long.
I think their best use is as a distraction - get them across the board and create a situation your OP is forced to deal with.
Black Knight wrote:Im about to test some out coming out of the webway strike on turn 1. You are allowed to use the webway strike stratagem turn 1 correct?
Turn 2 onwards i'm afraid. Codex is badly worded as it's 8th edition. There are lots of sections which are described as being possible on 'any turn' but it's always as of turn 2.
Jaume wrote: Hi everybody!
Not exactly newbie but as spanish forums are utterly dead, I´m glad to return to a place where people still chat and discuss about their hobby Next weekend will play against Deathguard for the first time, I got a list in mind not tailored at all, and benefits greatly of the new points in the FAQ.
Going for psychic superiority, objective control and flexibility.
Feel free to comment with cruelty and please forgive my english
Night Spinner [8 PL, 135pts]: Twin Shuriken Catapult
Support Weapons [8 PL, 140pts] . Support Weapon: D-cannon
. Support Weapon: D-cannon
++ Total: [107 PL, 9CP, 1,997pts] ++
Created with battlescribe.net]BattleScribe
The only real critique I have is the use of warding runes. Cant remember if that's 5+++ vs MW or 6++ but either case I don't think you are getting enough bang for buck either way.
The wraith seers would benefit greatly from expert crafters and masters of concealment they already have a 5++ and you can celestial shield your guardian blob for a 4++. I can respect children of prophecy to prevent perils though.
Played a rematch against Orks this week - OP changed his list up a bit with an extra unit of Boyz and a more horde based list, rather than the Killakanz, and the addition of a bomma jet (i think... some sort of Orky plane!)
I didn't have time to mess around too much with my list so used the same again, consisting mostly of infantry units with the only vehicles being walkers and a vyper - see below.
Dark Reapers [9 PL, 175pts]
. 4x Dark Reaper: 4x Reaper Launcher
. Dark Reaper Exarch: Reaper Launcher
. . Exarch Power: Rapid Shot
War Walkers [8 PL, 160pts]
. War Walker: Aeldari Missile Launcher, Aeldari Missile Launcher
. War Walker: Aeldari Missile Launcher, Aeldari Missile Launcher
++ Total: [73 PL, 1,499pts] ++
Ended up being a strong victory. It was looking shaky to start as he Kamakazi'd his Bomma Jet, dishing out 15 mortal wounds across my Wraithblades, Windriders and Farseer Skyrunner.
Thankfully, I just pushed forward with the mission and managed to get off all my secondaries (Scramblers, Engage and the mission specific, 'secure no mans land').
I was fortunate enough to deny Da Jump twice and then had a fairly successful round of shooting with forewarned when he eventually managed to cast.
20 man Guardian blobs are SOOO good for wiping units of Ork boyz. The assault 4 las blasters from the Swooping Hawks weren't half bad either!
Good to be here. The below list already performs reasonably well, it has defeated new codex AdMech and Sororitas, admittedly with turn one advantage in both cases. But both lists were reasonably kitted. Endgame farseer and M12 autarch are running as objective snaggers and Warlock tends to go on the suicide run, tying units and phoenix gemming. I am considering giving one of two detachments Windrider host, the question then arises: Can Nimble Escape be paired with the Feigned Retreat in the same turn? I find that 9th ed Craftworld struggle with picking good, scorable secondaries, if the prior-mentioned combination does work, Cut off the head would be a very viable choice especially if utilized on units of spears with quicken.
New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [101 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts]
For list critique, I don't have much to offer I'm afraid. The games I play utilizes the rule of three and we play a lot of GT Missions pack which does not allow Vigilus supplement rules such as Windrider host.
As far as secondaries, I choose Engage on all Fronts and Deploy Scramblers as defacto standards. The third secondary depends on opponent, army, and mission. Again, these choices are from the GT Missions book.
Good to be here. The below list already performs reasonably well, it has defeated new codex AdMech and Sororitas, admittedly with turn one advantage in both cases. But both lists were reasonably kitted. Endgame farseer and M12 autarch are running as objective snaggers and Warlock tends to go on the suicide run, tying units and phoenix gemming. I am considering giving one of two detachments Windrider host, the question then arises: Can Nimble Escape be paired with the Feigned Retreat in the same turn? I find that 9th ed Craftworld struggle with picking good, scorable secondaries, if the prior-mentioned combination does work, Cut off the head would be a very viable choice especially if utilized on units of spears with quicken.
New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [101 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts]
JimDaNoob wrote: I have completely overlooked this and interestingly have never been called out by anyone either. Thank you for educating. Back to the drawing board.
You're quite welcome, and sorry to rain on the parade!
It might not get you where you're trying to go, but you could concentrate down to three units, with some or all of them being larger units. The list would still be legal at least...
JimDaNoob wrote: I have completely overlooked this and interestingly have never been called out by anyone either. Thank you for educating. Back to the drawing board.
You're quite welcome, and sorry to rain on the parade!
It might not get you where you're trying to go, but you could concentrate down to three units, with some or all of them being larger units. The list would still be legal at least...
I think the problem is Shining Spears lose out quite a bit if taken not as MSU in point efficiency, so I will most likely have to soup Harlequins, if points allow.
Hi everybody!!
Test of the list was succesful, I got the defensor role and end my first turn losing only two rangers from aaaalll my opponent´s fire due to being out line of sight or/and out of range/not in table.
Wraithseers were MVPs of the game, ended all three dead, but hold for 3 turns the center of the table against flail units, terminator and drones, giving chance to my scoring units to make the necessary points (and dying after that by plaguebursts volleys). In turn 5 lost the 80% of my models, but difference in points was already impossible to reverse.
My opponent didn´t abuse of mortal wounds, so runes of warning didn´t pay off. I´ll play a couple of games with it, and change it for hunters of ancient relics maybe.
One wraithseer with witch strike is one of the most unexpected heavy hitter in the game, chopped the head of his warlord in one single swing and one single invul save unsuccesful roll
Very CP hungry, probably try to melt the two detachments in one spearhead for fixing this.
I think the problem is Shining Spears lose out quite a bit if taken not as MSU in point efficiency, so I will most likely have to soup Harlequins, if points allow.
I think this is why I'm not keen on the idea of major tournaments. I get that we have better units than others but I can't think of anything more boring than playing a game with (almost) nothing but spears - or any unit for that matter. I was curious a while back about running 9 war walkers (3 units of 3) and I turned from the idea on that basis.
I enjoy playing the well rounded lists with different units fulfilling different roles. I find it much more stimulating and dynamic.
Perhaps it's just me? Don't mean to criticise of course, you're welcome to field your army however you so wish (welcome to the forum by the way!) within the rule of three as already mentioned, and i'll take on any player for a bit of fun however they want to build a list - it's just not the way that I like to play the game.
Jaume wrote: Hi everybody!!
Test of the list was succesful, I got the defensor role and end my first turn losing only two rangers from aaaalll my opponent´s fire due to being out line of sight or/and out of range/not in table.
Wraithseers were MVPs of the game, ended all three dead, but hold for 3 turns the center of the table against flail units, terminator and drones, giving chance to my scoring units to make the necessary points (and dying after that by plaguebursts volleys). In turn 5 lost the 80% of my models, but difference in points was already impossible to reverse.
My opponent didn´t abuse of mortal wounds, so runes of warning didn´t pay off. I´ll play a couple of games with it, and change it for hunters of ancient relics maybe.
One wraithseer with witch strike is one of the most unexpected heavy hitter in the game, chopped the head of his warlord in one single swing and one single invul save unsuccesful roll
Very CP hungry, probably try to melt the two detachments in one spearhead for fixing this.
Very good first impressions
Thanks for sharing. 3 Wraithseers/contesting the center is a sound strategy. I use a large squad of Wraithblades to perform that duty and it was that ability my army was previously missing. Any thoughts of giving at least 2 of the Wraithlords Smite? Opponents will likely put their most durable units into the midboard and Mortal Wounds are still a solid counter. Hunters of Ancient Relics is one of my favorite Craftworld traits and I always choose it for one of my detachments.
I tend to spend a lot of CP on turn 1 nearly every game. One thing I did adjust was to build a Battalion and Patrol as opposed to Patrol and Spearhead. It is only a single CP, but it was one more than before. I think for efficiency in the dated Craftworld Codex, it is exceptionally difficult to build a single Battalion. Your list has a lot of flexible tools and I expect it will be challenging to build in a single detachment and be happy. For example, Nightspinners may be average, but 2 Nightspinners + 36" range Jinx + Autarch + Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots = potent non LOS shooting platforms. Wraithseers would better benefit from Expert Crafters and Hunters of Ancient Relics and both compete for Heavy Support slots in a single Battalion.
We wrapped up our local escalation league which culminated with a 3 round, 2000 point tourney. The league was 8 weeks, games started at 500 points and grew each week up to 2000 points. I played the 500 point game with my Harlequins, but the rest with Craftworld. I ran Craftworld for the tourney.
I ended up 6-2 in the league securing 3rd place while going 3-0 in the tourney securing first place. The list varied based on points and small tweaks. However, I did run Wraithblades in every game and they were definitely my MVP unit. Hunters of Ancient Relics, Protect, Fortune on a large unit of Wraithblades really helped me contest the midboard objectives which was what had my Primary objective score increase; I generally scored 40-45 points for Primary each game, which was a significant increase from my previous vehicle heavy army lists which tended to score 25-30 points.
I think the problem is Shining Spears lose out quite a bit if taken not as MSU in point efficiency, so I will most likely have to soup Harlequins, if points allow.
I think this is why I'm not keen on the idea of major tournaments. I get that we have better units than others but I can't think of anything more boring than playing a game with (almost) nothing but spears - or any unit for that matter. I was curious a while back about running 9 war walkers (3 units of 3) and I turned from the idea on that basis.
I enjoy playing the well rounded lists with different units fulfilling different roles. I find it much more stimulating and dynamic.
Perhaps it's just me? Don't mean to criticise of course, you're welcome to field your army however you so wish (welcome to the forum by the way!) within the rule of three as already mentioned, and i'll take on any player for a bit of fun however they want to build a list - it's just not the way that I like to play the game.
In my experience spamming units is more about the appearance of efficiency than actually being efficient. To put it another way, since it is the sort of thing expected from competitive players, players do it in order to appear competitive. They may think it makes their army better (though it seldom does), but the primary purpose is to signal to other people "I am a competitive player, meant to be taken seriously." It is as much about social signaling as casual or fluffy play, in which taking certain sorts of units or presenting your army in a certain way signals that you are a specific kind of player.
It is possible that at the absolute bleeding edge of the competitive 40K scene you need to spam certain units to have a chance. This is most common when a unit receives the gifts of the codex writers and has obviously overpowered rules, but even then it's only really necessary if you're gunning for first place. When I played in tournaments I was fairly successful, usually winning local tournaments and placing well in grand tournaments, and I never felt I needed to spam whatever the flavor of the month was. I put a certain amount of thought into my armies and tried to make them effective, but always within the parameters of what I wanted to take.
(The social signaling in this case was limited to myself, as I usually try to make an army that reflects the story for that army that I concoct in my head. I do not subject my opponents to the horror of my fan fiction, as I am not a monster.)
If you take a well-rounded army that you know how to play you should do well at tournaments Better yet, if you zig while everyone else zags, and take an odd or unusual army, you should catch most of your opponents off guard. That is usually much more valuable than bringing a unit that is theoretically better or marginally more efficient.
Sarigar wrote: We wrapped up our local escalation league which culminated with a 3 round, 2000 point tourney. The league was 8 weeks, games started at 500 points and grew each week up to 2000 points. I played the 500 point game with my Harlequins, but the rest with Craftworld. I ran Craftworld for the tourney.
I ended up 6-2 in the league securing 3rd place while going 3-0 in the tourney securing first place. The list varied based on points and small tweaks. However, I did run Wraithblades in every game and they were definitely my MVP unit. Hunters of Ancient Relics, Protect, Fortune on a large unit of Wraithblades really helped me contest the midboard objectives which was what had my Primary objective score increase; I generally scored 40-45 points for Primary each game, which was a significant increase from my previous vehicle heavy army lists which tended to score 25-30 points.
Jaume wrote: Hi everybody!!
Test of the list was succesful, I got the defensor role and end my first turn losing only two rangers from aaaalll my opponent´s fire due to being out line of sight or/and out of range/not in table.
Wraithseers were MVPs of the game, ended all three dead, but hold for 3 turns the center of the table against flail units, terminator and drones, giving chance to my scoring units to make the necessary points (and dying after that by plaguebursts volleys). In turn 5 lost the 80% of my models, but difference in points was already impossible to reverse.
My opponent didn´t abuse of mortal wounds, so runes of warning didn´t pay off. I´ll play a couple of games with it, and change it for hunters of ancient relics maybe.
One wraithseer with witch strike is one of the most unexpected heavy hitter in the game, chopped the head of his warlord in one single swing and one single invul save unsuccesful roll
Very CP hungry, probably try to melt the two detachments in one spearhead for fixing this.
Very good first impressions
Thanks for sharing. 3 Wraithseers/contesting the center is a sound strategy. I use a large squad of Wraithblades to perform that duty and it was that ability my army was previously missing. Any thoughts of giving at least 2 of the Wraithlords Smite? Opponents will likely put their most durable units into the midboard and Mortal Wounds are still a solid counter. Hunters of Ancient Relics is one of my favorite Craftworld traits and I always choose it for one of my detachments.
I tend to spend a lot of CP on turn 1 nearly every game. One thing I did adjust was to build a Battalion and Patrol as opposed to Patrol and Spearhead. It is only a single CP, but it was one more than before. I think for efficiency in the dated Craftworld Codex, it is exceptionally difficult to build a single Battalion. Your list has a lot of flexible tools and I expect it will be challenging to build in a single detachment and be happy. For example, Nightspinners may be average, but 2 Nightspinners + 36" range Jinx + Autarch + Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots = potent non LOS shooting platforms. Wraithseers would better benefit from Expert Crafters and Hunters of Ancient Relics and both compete for Heavy Support slots in a single Battalion.
Let us know what you change up.
Hi!! You are right, I thing that the best psychic loadout for three wraithseers is 3 powers from runes of battle, and two of them keeping smite and the last switchin for Witch strike
I've had the chance to play another game and having signed up to a torunament in August, I figured practising some lists would be a good idea to solidify something I'll learn over time and make the most from the list. I wanted to try out Fire Prisms with the points drop as well as some units I've not tried before like wraithblades. My game was against deathguard, toting a 10 strong blightlord termie squad, 2 plagueburst crawlers, a 10 man strong squad of plague marines in a rhino and a smattering of characters to go with them. The game was cagey for the most part, neither of us wanted turn one due to the speed of his army and my inability to make a turn 1 charge. The game was close run, ending with a 67-62 victory to the Deathguard and it was only in the final turns of the game where I lost points due to my army getting whittled down quite substantially. I made a few blunders, losing my jetlock with jinx early on but it was effective in helping me kill off his terminators which were a massive problem in the mid board. I picked Engage on All Fronts, Retrieve Octarius Data (ROD) and psychic interrogation. I didn't go for a ritual as I wasn't able to control the mid board as I would have liked, the wraithblades just wouldn't be enough against the terminators. Engage was an easy 15, and ROD was maxed out too with the warp spiders and dire avengers. Psychic interrogation was rubbish, I got denied once and only completed it twice after that and it also felt too clunky when I sorely needed my other powers to go off.
Overall I liked how the list played but I lack throwaway units so I may consider dropping the spirit stones and singing spears as well as a fire prism to add some fast objective grabbers. While I can't really go for primaries, the option to get a unit on a contested one to deny points would have been really valuable.
Wish I'd picked quicken/restrain on my conclave, as they weren't up to much as the wraithblades didn't really see proper combat as I was avoiding combat with the termies, the -1 toughness bubbles and the dude who turns off charge buffs.
Anyone tried out fire prisms yet? What do you think of the list overall?
As it stands, your army cannot take advantage of the Seer Council stratagem. The Warlock and Farseer need to be of the same Craftworld. The +1 can be quite significant.
The Warlock Conclave ability to cast Jinx at 36" (Concordance of Power)is very significant. This allows the models to stay out of Deny the Witch range. Protect, which can be cast by a different Warlock,combined with Fortune cast on Wraithblades makes them incredibly durable and a solid unit to go directly at midboard objectives.
I agree that your list needs more chaff units. If, for nothing else, the ability to screen and throw out onto open objectives to force shooting at them. Dire Avengers or even cheap Storm Guardian squads work well. Storm Guardians are cheap, and you can play Celestial Shield; this forces opponents to put more shooting to remove them than an opponent calculated.
I didn't use the seer council strat in my last game but I'll rejig that jetlock to accommodate for that, I use it in most games and that's a good catch as I wouldn't want that issue popping up in game.
Good shout with the conclave too, I had the card out to use it but it never came up either as I didn't have the right power to use it with. Protect/Jinx will replace one of those powers and I may consider adding another jetlock or warlock to the conclave just to have the extra psychic support.
Might give Storm Guardians a go over Avengers for the celestial shield you mentioned. I have been tempted by standard guardians to use them as a backfield objective sitter or going for a guardian bomb but I've always found the bomb strategy a bit situational and easy to screen out.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I've always found the bomb strategy a bit situational and easy to screen out.
Speaking from experience, I highly rate the bomb! Especially if you're running Hail of Doom - they're great for clearing objectives. Even without it to be honest.
Expensive but worth their points. It's 40 shots every turn that your OP doesn't deal with them.
Likely opponents are Orks, Necrons and Imperial Guard.
We're doing a three round tournament with 500 points, 1000 points and 1500 points. The latter two I don't mind too much but i have always struggled with small lists!
I'm taking part in a Crusade campaign and you can't really go wrong with lots of shuriken in small point games. Weight of shots will force failures over low shots and high damage weapons. This also allows you to squeeze more bodies into 500 points although it may be worthwhile to have enough firepower to kill a rhino or its equivalent transport. This works relatively well with 1000 points games too although cracks do start to show as you can't just hope for failed saves. Dealing mortal wounds is also a big deal so smite/executioner are good powers to shoot for.
I played a few 500pt games of 9e when it first came out and Guardians were surprisingly decent with Farseer support. Since then the point cost for Guardians has gone down, so if I were to do a 500pt tourney I personally would lean heavily into Guardians and/or DA for objectives.
For heavy support perhaps War Walkers with star cannons if you're expecting silver tide Necrons. A Wraithlord with flamers would be very good against Orks and possibly Guard depending on what they bring.
Likely opponents are Orks, Necrons and Imperial Guard.
We're doing a three round tournament with 500 points, 1000 points and 1500 points. The latter two I don't mind too much but i have always struggled with small lists!
Hello, I've started picking up Craftworld kits to build a small side army and I wanted to see if anyone had insights. I'm huge fan of Iyanden lore, so I wanted to make a Wraith-heavy list. I had initially looked at custom factions, but I actually felt like pure Iyanden had serious merit. Here's my idea for 1k though I'm struggling with some of the details for psychic powers and equipment:
Iyanden Patrol, 995pt
Spoiler:
Farseer, Guide, Doom, 115 [Warlord: Seer of the Shifting Vector]
Spiritseer, Ghostwalk?, Empower/Enervate, 60 [Psytronome of Iyanden]
5 Wraithblade, Swords and Shields, 200
-Waveserpent, Twin Shuricannon, Twin Catapult, 150
10 Dire Avengers, Shimmershield, Avenging Strikes, 115
6 Dark Reapers, Rapid Fire, 210
Wraithseer, Starcannon, Witch Strike or Ghostwalk?, Protect/Jinx, 145
I think Iyanden is justified over a custom faction for the relic and stratagem. The Wraithblade are an absolute wrecking ball. Obviously the gameplan is to shoot and scoot with the Dark Reapers and Dire Avengers while the Waveserpent dives face first into the enemy. For the Avengers, I went the Avenging Strikes route to supplement my anti-tank, since they math out better than autocannons against a Doomed T7. The game plan is not very complicated, but I can redeploy almost the entire army with Phantasm so I'll lean on that to force good positions.
I'm particularly torn on the equipment and powers for the Wraithseer and Waveserpent. I almost want to skip the gun on the Wraithseer entirely, but I don't trust that it'll make it into melee reliably.
Ghostwalk appears most useful for Wraithblades, but have a short range to cast. If you are putting Wraithblades in a Wave Serpent, not sure it is overly needed. Witchstrike has some utility, but I've not found myself really wishing I had 5+d3 over 3+d3 damage, though I'm sure there are niche cases. I personally like Smite for that model. Mortal Wound output has utility in nearly any game.
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]
Craftworld Attribute . *Custom Craftworld*: Expert Crafters, Hunters of Ancient Relics
Detachment Command Cost
+ HQ [16 PL, 310pts] +
Farseer [6 PL, 120pts]: 0. Smite, 2. Doom, 3. Fortune, Ghosthelm, Psyker (Farseer), Rune Armour, Runes of the Farseer, Shuriken Pistol, Singing Spear [5pts] . The Phoenix Gem: Remnant of Glory
Irillyth [7 PL, 140pts]: Reaper of Souls (Aura), Shade of Twilight, Shadow of Death (Aura), Shadow Spectres Phoenix Lord, Spear of Starlight, Spectre Holo-field
I'm a personal fan of Dragon's Bite, the option to charge the vehicle you shoot is a great trick and ties up a unit in the process. If you survive the vehicle shooting, it's fair game to finish it off after that with the pistols next turn.
I've played a few games with Fire Dragons with Swift Step. For 100 points, I've had okmsuccess with them. Basically a throw away unit that gets a lot of attention.
I used Rapid Fire for Dark Reapers. I don't upgrade the Exarch weapon at all and opt for the extra shot.
Warp Spiders and Web of Deceit.
I switch up between Bladestorm and Shredding Fire for Avengers.
I forget the name, but for the Hawks, I use the ability granting the unit a 5++.
On another note, I have a competitive practise game against a Farsight Enclaves list but not tailoring in an attempt to get a list sorted out for the tournament I'm going to in August. I took on your feedback Sarigar and I've elected to drop a Fire Prism and shaved a few points here and there to squeeze in Storm Guardians, some Jetbikes and another War Walker.
I figure the chaff units will help in an attempt to try for Stranglehold and dropping a fire prism means Bring It Down isn't the best pick against my army. Thoughts? Would you have gone for the same choices as me? I'm a little iffy on the warlock power choices still and I am still working out whether I could slot another warlock/jetlock/spiritseer in place of something else.
One thing of note. The Farseer and Conclave won't be able to utilize Seer Council as they are not the same Craftworld.
A similar issue with Ghostwalk. It cannot be cast on the Wraithblades or Shining Spears as they are from a different Craftworld than the Warlock who has it.
If you have extra points to spend which is why you have 10 Storm Guardians instead of 8, no worries. That happens to me sometimes. But, I dont purposefully pick 10. They are a poor unit, but they are exceptionally cheap and can score me points as well as place Celestial Shield to force my opponent to over commit shooting at them. Don't expect any offense from them.
Your list can give up 11 points using Bring It Down. Not a deal breaker, but something to be aware of.
I've not used Fire Prisms this edition, but your list is looking to have solid shooting and mobility.
I am a big fan of running a big unit of Wraithblades. However, I don't think that fits in your plan. You definitely need something to get jnto mid board to contest.
Other than reviewing how you want your psychic powers to interact, I like the list overall. I dont have much experience against Tau, so unsure how to advise. Best of luck and let us know how it goes.
What do you guys advise to watch out for against custodes in terms of strats ?
I know they ahve their silly terminator teleported thing as well as the ability to shoot at characters.
Im hoping to bait a forewarned...
Not sure about secondaries against custards. Maybe raise banners and table quarters.
Crafter91 wrote: So turns out it wasn't 500 points, it was 25pl
Anyway, I have knocked up a list that I quite like the look of but happy for any considerations to be made
+ Heavy Support +
War Walkers [4 PL, 80pts]
. War Walker: Aeldari Missile Launcher, Aeldari Missile Launcher
War Walkers [4 PL, 80pts]
. War Walker: Aeldari Missile Launcher, Aeldari Missile Launcher
++ Total: [25 PL, 525pts] ++
Oh that's nice, PL instead of points gives you a bit more leeway. Are you taking the AML because you're expecting to deal with hordes of Orks or Guardsmen? If you're expecting to deal with a lot of 2W infantry then you may one to give one Starcannons.
DarkHound wrote: Hello, I've started picking up Craftworld kits to build a small side army and I wanted to see if anyone had insights. I'm huge fan of Iyanden lore, so I wanted to make a Wraith-heavy list. I had initially looked at custom factions, but I actually felt like pure Iyanden had serious merit. Here's my idea for 1k though I'm struggling with some of the details for psychic powers and equipment:
Avenging Strikes for the DA is also very fluffy for Iyanden who's lost such a tremendous population. It's an ability I like a lot but I find it works best when they're supported by Asurmen, they can be pretty nasty when there's 9 left in the squad.
The Wraithseer used to be amazing as an HQ since it's D-Cannon could snipe enemy characters, I haven't used it as a Heavy Support yet, but I'd hesitate to leave it without ranged weapons. For Psychic Powers - Witchstrike is always fun if the Wraithseer but requires you to survive till melee. Focus Will is solid with a caster heavy list. Impair Senses could have been a good way to protect your giant walking Wraithseer, but they included an 18" clause that completely defeats the purpose of casting that power so avoid that one for now.
Argive wrote: What do you guys advise to watch out for against custodes in terms of strats ?
I know they ahve their silly terminator teleported thing as well as the ability to shoot at characters.
Im hoping to bait a forewarned...
Not sure about secondaries against custards. Maybe raise banners and table quarters.
No idea what list he's bringing.
Tanglefoot Grenades.
Even in Death (can fight or shoot after model is destroyed)
Wisdom of the Ancients (reroll to hit rolls of 1 within 6" of a dreadnought).
The new Linebraker and new Deploy Scramblers secondary can work well against Custodes.
Argive wrote: What do you guys advise to watch out for against custodes in terms of strats ?
I know they ahve their silly terminator teleported thing as well as the ability to shoot at characters.
Im hoping to bait a forewarned...
Not sure about secondaries against custards. Maybe raise banners and table quarters.
No idea what list he's bringing.
Tanglefoot Grenades.
Even in Death (can fight or shoot after model is destroyed)
Wisdom of the Ancients (reroll to hit rolls of 1 within 6" of a dreadnought).
The new Linebraker and new Deploy Scramblers secondary can work well against Custodes.
Also if i'm not wrong the stratagem that stops any re-roll from being used against an unit so it stops dead Doom and Expert Crafters and be wary with the Custodes captains on jetbikes as they are often played with a nasty invul and be able to pile in and consolidate 1d3+3 in any direction.
Sarigar wrote: One thing of note. The Farseer and Conclave won't be able to utilize Seer Council as they are not the same Craftworld.
A similar issue with Ghostwalk. It cannot be cast on the Wraithblades or Shining Spears as they are from a different Craftworld than the Warlock who has it.
If you have extra points to spend which is why you have 10 Storm Guardians instead of 8, no worries. That happens to me sometimes. But, I dont purposefully pick 10. They are a poor unit, but they are exceptionally cheap and can score me points as well as place Celestial Shield to force my opponent to over commit shooting at them. Don't expect any offense from them.
Your list can give up 11 points using Bring It Down. Not a deal breaker, but something to be aware of.
I've not used Fire Prisms this edition, but your list is looking to have solid shooting and mobility.
I am a big fan of running a big unit of Wraithblades. However, I don't think that fits in your plan. You definitely need something to get jnto mid board to contest.
Other than reviewing how you want your psychic powers to interact, I like the list overall. I dont have much experience against Tau, so unsure how to advise. Best of luck and let us know how it goes.
Ah yes! I should swap the Farseer into the other detachment to avail of that stratagem, it'll be much more useful in conjunction with the warlock conclave, still not used to the mixed craftworlds detachments but that should clear it up. I was mainly keeping the Farseer in the initial detachment as I wanted to start him in a transport, but should be easily hidden I think.
I went for 10 Storm Guardians as I had the point for two more exactly and the extra bodies are valued above singing spears in my opinion, I could have gone for more Dire Avengers but Celestial Shield is the reason for choosing them. I doubt they'll do much, but if I can have them aid screening and sit on an objective, I'm happy enough.
I think I'm happy enough losing 11 points to Bring it Down. If my opponent is getting through all of my units then I've likely lost the battle anyway, although I'm hoping spirit stones on wave serpents make a minor difference and fortune can boost another vehicle.
I really liked the three fire prisms in the last game so I'm trying two this time. I really like how they can deal with a range of targets this edition and I can still avail of linked fire, which was key in my game against DG. Ideally, I'd like to replace them with Hornets (maybe?) as they're a more manoeuvrable platform and easier to hide.
Big blob of wraithblades would be nice, but I don't have the models! Something for the future I think!
Thanks again, I'm interested to see how the game will go.
So I'm just back to the hobby after having over 20,000 points of Eldar stolen from me, yes yes, I know they're Aeldari now so GW can copywriter. Been playing a few games, trying a few different lists via proxy and helpful friendly folks before I start investing again. Had a surprising game last night, wanted to share the list.
Single Battalion - Iyanden Craftworld
HQ
Farseer (Doom/Fortune, Phoenix Gem meant to keep doom/fortune rather than as a bomb)
Spiritseer (Ghostwalk, Protect/Jinx, Warlord, Psytronome of Iyanden - Iyanden list, liked the no combat attrition thing and wanted to try Wraiths)
Irilyth (Did /work/ definitely worth the points in this list)
TROOP
2x Dire Avenger squads 5 + Exarch Bladestorm + Shimmershield and Glaive (Same exarch on all 3 dire avenger exarchs)
1x Dire Avenger squad 4 + Exarch (As above)
ELITES
1x Shadow Spectres 6 + Exarch (Why not get an extra wound model at least?)
1x Wraithblades 6 w/Axe & Shield
1x Wraithblades 5 w/Axe & Shield
FAST ATTACK
1x Warp Spiders + Exarch w/ Web of Deceit & Powerblades
I was playing against Necrons, didn't know what I was up against before hand, I kept all three dire avengers in the deployment zone, screens for deep strike mostly and with one on the objective if there was trouble they could advance in to support the center squad. Had all the wraithblades in serpents with the farseer and spiritseer in with the 5 wraith squad. Spectres and Spiders in deep strike. Wraithlords and WraithSeer took up position on the left lane behind obscuring, wave serpents on the right. I go 2nd after roll off.
Turn 1 Necron veils a 20 man blob within turn 1 charge of my wraithblades and he melts a wave serpent with tesla hits. I lose 1 wraithblade to the disembark. He melts on wraith lord with triarch stalker and doom scythe and only manages to plink 1 wound off my 2nd wave serpent with an annihilation barge. Disembark my 2nd squad of wraithblades and that charge is brutal. 20 necron warriors evaporated, entire blob gone, use the consolidation to take an objective.
My opponent didn't know what to expect out of my list, obviously.
I bolt up the left side with my wraithseer using quicken and smash the triarch stalker so it's almost dead and touch base.
Turn 2, Necron's now on the back foot. He moves his 2nd warrior blob into position and /tries/ to Tesla down the wraithblade squad with 4 in it, manages to do 1 wound unsaved. Tries to use doom scythe to pelt one of my dire avenger squads with the tesla but thanks to cover there was no joy there. Starts focusing considerable fire on the WraithSeer, even brings his catacomb command barge in. Manages to drop it to 1, but the wraithseer killed the barge in response as he charged hoping to get that last wound through. Didn't work. Which takes out his command protocols for the rest of the game.
He drops his flayed ones and Deciever in close to my primary objective and over the course of two turns manages to kill them, but I drop my Spectres in to erase the flayed ones and Irilyth starts a steady stream of 3 damage in the shooting phase into the deciever, which gave me time to embark my 4 man wraithblades into the surviving wave serpent with Seer support. End of Turn 3 Deciever is dead, I've reduced warriors down to /4/ models from 40, warp spiders jumped into the back field to ensure a max engage for 2 turns and then tied up the immortals which made it so they couldn't shoot my wraithseer to death as I was burning CP every round getting that D3 back until it finally died in the 4th round.
Turn 4 I melted both his remaining characters to max assassinate (Go Spectres!) and he was down to an annihilation barge and 7 immortals when he conceded. I /may/ have been able to table him, but I had a big enough points advantage by that point there was no returning.
His army was tailored to horde's and this list is about as opposite as you can get to that.
I made some misplays myself, first time with this list, but it has some potential. The Wraithblades are absolute beasts and I think putting them into Wave Serpents is definitely the right play. Doom was also clutch because it messed with Nephrekh saves hard. Fortune, not as useful, I used it every turn but I think Guide might be better with this list.
Overall, was a great game, learned a lot.
ETA: I never even popped the Psytronome, had no need for it, would be clutch against other armies I'm sure so not ditching it just yet.
Turn 1 Necron veils a 20 man blob within turn 1 charge of my wraithblades and he melts a wave serpent with tesla hits. I lose 1 wraithblade to the disembark. He melts on wraith lord with triarch stalker and doom scythe and only manages to plink 1 wound off my 2nd wave serpent with an annihilation barge. Disembark my 2nd squad of wraithblades and that charge is brutal. 20 necron warriors evaporated, entire blob gone, use the consolidation to take an objective.
Hello and welcome back to the hobby! I'm surprised to see a Wraithserpent go down so quickly, that's tough luck. I'm guessing you meant Gauss hits rather than Tesla hits right? The Veil of Darkness is only for core units which is a very small pool of Necron units. The only ones with Tesla that I recall are Immortals and Tomb blades.
Glad to hear the Wraithblades worked out well for you, I personally like the look of the twin blades better but the Ax and Shield brings an awful lot of durability to the table. I like to run 2-3 Wraithlords myself but it's always a tough choice on whether they're worth the points investment for shoulder weapons when they can get taken down so easily with the abundance of cheap AT weapons around.
Welcome back to the Craftworlds. Glad to read someone else running a fair number of Wraithblades. Them, Spectres, and Reapers are mainstays in most of my lists these days.
Psytronome can be a tricky play. If you ever deviate from Iyanden and try custom Craftworld traits, Hunters of Ancient Relics and Wrath of the Dead are really solid for a Wraith themed detachment.
Custodes was a hard game. I won but only due to rolling insane saves. Who rolls 4 6's !?
Eldrad carriedthe battle. Managing to tank termie custodes. Everyone always underestimates eldrad.
I have to say i was impressed with specters.
Irilyth seemed like bit of a let down. If only he coukd get craftworld trait or a warlord trait.
First time running the AOK.
I realy like the aok. I think his fearless bubble with stormies is amazing. Annoying you cant take a second warlord trait... Seer of the shifting vector is just too good for warlock. Free rerol for jinx/ protect is a must.
Wraithseer was decent. But with only 9 wounds he would crumble easily to any dedicated at. Luckily he didint have much.
Secondaries was asasinate , attrition and table quarters.
Was dope to be finaly back at the table rolling dice
Oh wow, I'm impressed Eldrad survived against a Custodes onslaught, you must have had some great luck on those Invul saves!
I'm glad to hear the Avatar went well for you, I'm really looking forward to giving him a try with the latest points adjustment.
The D-Cannon on the Wraithseer was great as an HQ since you could give the WL trait to let them snipe enemy characters. It's still a potent weapon now but the point cost is exceptional.
First 2,000 pt game tomorrow - making the trip over to Warhammer World for the occasion
Up against Guard - i'll be surprised if i don't have three Manticores to contend with, among other artillery.
Expecting the outcome of the game to be largely decided by who gets the first turn...
Any tips? I'll have a crimson hunter exarch to get across the board quickly and cause some trouble, and will be using War Walkers to come on the board from the back on turn two.
Beyond that, I feel like my other units will largely be used as target practice
I've been playing an IG opponent weekly now for a few weeks. Manticore, Basilisks, and Command tanks. Also a character dropping battle cannon round anywhere on the board once per game. The game is not as much a forgone conclusion as you may think.
Right now my opponent loathes my 10 strong Wraithblade unit. They prevent him from gaining board control. He constantly debates shooting at them due to their durability. This unit creates hard choices for my opponent. Last game, we played Vital Intelligence. I sat the unit on a mid board objective as I chose the mission secondary. They held the objective all game as the IG shot at them but would not get close. They also sat in one table quarter assisting with Engage on all Fronts, and earned my the mission secondary another 10 points. Even without assault, they were extremely valuable.
I don't remember the names, but IG get the ability to reroll the number of shots, which is substantial. I think there is a stratagem allowing a Leman Russ to fire max number of shots. Master of Ordnance?
Avoid allowing a tank to survive if you can destroy it. There is a stratagem allowing the tank to move and Fire as if on its top bracket.
My opponent, for the first time now, shot a Basilisks at my 2 strong Warlock Conclave. It's only a 80 point unit, but Protect/Jinx with a potential range of 36" has been quite game changing. I was surprised I've played this 80 point unit for nearly a year and it is a rare game someone shoots at them. Great little unit.
Dark Reapers/Wave Serpent and Fire and Fade. Keep the Wave Serpent out of LOS to keep it around longer. Or, any unit that shoots very well against tanks (Lynx, Fire Prism, etc..) I also use Vectored Engines for the -1 to be hit for the tank, which is important against IG.
Warp Spider unit and Retrieve Octarius Data. I've played 8 or so games now with the updated Secondaries, and I have scored a full 12 points every game with this. Use other small,cheap units to get one or two table quarters. Bring in the Spiders turn 3 to get a third, then Web of Deceit to the fourth quarter.
I tried a tactic out yesterday which worked somewhat, but it is a bit against my playstyle. I took 5 Shining Spears and cast Quicken to get past the chaff and assaulted miiltiple tanks. My opponent castled his non LOS tanks behind a ruin (It blocked my LOS) and I tied 2of them up turns 1,2, and 3. I don't like throwing units away like that, but it did mitigate his shooting for a bit.
If you have a CHE starting on the board, it will likely be up to who gets first turn. I'm not a fan of that strategy. Cloudstrike may be worth utilizing if you believe the CHE will get destroyed if you don't get first turn.
First Rank, Second Rank is quite good against most Craftworld infantry.
Have multiple units touch objectives forcing more tough shooting choices.
Strategic Reserves and Fire Dragons can be interesting. I used a 5 man unit and brought them in on turn 3. They destroyed a Basilisk and a LemanRuss in that game. Worked well for a 100 point unit.
Play the mission. Don't panic over losing models and continue to play for points. You can get tabled and still win. I've had several games with very few models left, but win because of this.
Of note, look at how many character the IG may have. My opponent likes to take several. May be a good option for Assasinate.
Finally, I am a bit envious. It is still on my bucket list to visit Warhammer World. I've had buddies visiting the UK and make the trip there and always say it is very much worth the trip.
Sarigar wrote: Play the mission. Don't panic over losing models and continue to play for points. You can get tabled and still win. I've had several games with very few models left, but win because of this.
Of note, look at how many character the IG may have. My opponent likes to take several. May be a good option for Assasinate.
Finally, I am a bit envious. It is still on my bucket list to visit Warhammer World. I've had buddies visiting the UK and make the trip there and always say it is very much worth the trip.
Best of luck.
All great advice as always
Yes, i am very much a 'play the mission' gamer too. Especially for secondaries - and doing what I can to deny theirs.
I am fortunate enough to live in the UK, and in the town next to where WHW is based.
Not been for quite some time so looking forward to it!
I tried something a bit different today. Locally folks are getting accustomed to my 10 Wraithblades. To change things up, I opted to run 20 Wraithblades, 2 Wraithseers, and 5 Wraithguard led by an Autarch in a detachment. 2000 point armies.
I chose different secondaries I rarely, if ever, play: Raise Banners, Minimize Losses (mission), and To the Last. We played Strikeforce mission 11 from CA 2021.
Folks are getting used to me rushing Wraithblades midboard. This time, both units held back and Raised Banners on different objectives. The Autarch, flanked by 2 Wraithseers and 5 Wraithguard, raised a third. I didn't move forward. He immediately figured out I'm setting up to get 30 points from 2 secondaries if he doesn't come at me (he played Mechanicus).
Also in turn 1, I destroy a flier with my Lynx and D Cannon a few horse riders (forgot their name).
This created a sense of urgency with my opponent and teleported 4 chicken walkers and a character right in front of my army (I screened out back and sides to avoid fighting on multiple fronts to avoid two Termites; had no idea about this stratagem). They shot and did surprisingly little damage. He shot and charged with his horses and did very little damage to the Wraithguard, who then punched back and destroyed the remaining horses (Hunters of Ancient Relics, Wrath of the Dead and an Autarch bumped them up much more than my opponent anticipated).
My next turn, 10 Wraithblades and 2 D Cannons wreaked havoc destroying the chicken walkers and character that landed in front of my army. I also brought the other flier down to 3 wounds with my Lynx.
My opponent, aware of the mistake he made with the chicken walkers, deep struck a Termite in front of my Lynx with a Farseer next to it (my opponent has a history of letting folks fall into traps knowing they don't know the stratagems he can play IE: teleporting chicken walkers). After Farwarned, the Guided Lynx removed one Termite. He then placed the second Termite in the exact same place. He was a bit salty, but he just 'gotcha me the previous turn with a stratagem I had no clue about. Plus, I've played him a few times before and Forwarded was not a new thing.
However, Rangers jumping out of Termites can really shoot and my Wraithguard got cut down. Now I see why there are grumbling about their shooting.
After the one squad of 10 Wraithguard barreled through the chicken walkers and a character, they then assaulted another character flanked by two shooting vehicles in his deployment zone. Finally, they went over to the side of his deployment zone to kill a unit of Rangers holding an objective which also had Raised the Banner.
I ended up my highest secondary objective score to date. 15/To the Last, 12/Raise the Banner, 10/Minimize Losses.
It was very interesting to change up the tactics and secondary objectives for this game. In tourneys, most folks are very clear how my army functions and I can choose my normal secondaries. For the folks I play regularly, they are adapting and can counter the strategies. This was quite an interesting change of pace.
I'm not suddenly advocating on taking those stratagems or even army, but as more 9th ed codexes are released and we still use a dated 8th ed Codex, experimenting outside one's comfort zone can be very interesting.
However, I will say Wraithguard still suck and I am replacing them with a pair of Hornets to got into my shooters detachment. I hope they are better in the next codex.
I've never really played Eldar, and I have an inherited Eldar army that I got from a friend that I have subsequently supplemented via the inclusion of LOTS of Wraithguard (about 3 boxes + the Apocalypse box).
I just got myself 6 new Jetbikes and I'm wondering what people arm them with these days?
I think the days of the Scatterbikes is behind us, but do people go all Shuricannons instead, or a mix of weapons, or what?
Crafter91 wrote: First 2,000 pt game tomorrow - making the trip over to Warhammer World for the occasion
Up against Guard - i'll be surprised if i don't have three Manticores to contend with, among other artillery.
Expecting the outcome of the game to be largely decided by who gets the first turn...
Any tips? I'll have a crimson hunter exarch to get across the board quickly and cause some trouble, and will be using War Walkers to come on the board from the back on turn two.
Beyond that, I feel like my other units will largely be used as target practice
Well - it was a fun game but an absolute massacre none-the-less.
I was up against 2 manticores, three tank commanders and a basilisk
I won the first turn roll off and managed to kill a manticore - it exploded and plinked a couple of wounds off the second manticore sat next to it.
Generally i was rolling ok (ish) but my damage rolls were really letting me down so it took a lot of fire power to remove it from the table.
Then in his turn one, sheer volume of shots brought down my crimson hunter and wave serpent - both exploded then taking wounds off other units nearby.
There wasn't a huge amount of terrain on the table which really didn't work in my favour either.
He shot me off a centre objective on one side. The other i was holding with a unit of blades which he charged. He didn't kill anything but obsec worked to his advantage and was enough to stop me scoring.
The following turn i feigned retreat from that unit to shoot them off it while still being within 3" of the objective. Shooting was a flop. I charged them again with the blades and killed all but one lousy guardsman meaning he scored the primary for it at the start of his next turn.
I brought on my walkers as planned, as well as a guardian bomb to try and reclaim the objective i lost on the previous turn, which I did (before getting shot off it again in the next turn)
In his turn two, heavy bolter shots reaped havoc through my army. Hitting on 4s because i used master of concealment, but more often than not, rerolling ones. then wounding on 2s with flat 2 damage was just a killer.
At the start of turn three, the only unit remaining was my wraith blades and a farseer - we played it out anyway in the interest of good sport, and they were able to wipe a unit of bulgryns, before being flattened in his turn. At this point i had no spiritseer to buff them.
Completely tabled by turn 3 with a rather embarrassing score card of 8 - 59. (or 18-69 if you want to count painted bonus).
My biggest issue for sure (aside from bad damage rolls) was that i barely had the units to make up 2000 points so rather than it being overly 'strong' i was taking units for the sake of filling points. Was lovely to see my fully painted army on the table at the same time but ultimately, ineffective in it's capabilities.
I have agreed a rematch with him using a 1,500 point list which should hopefully be a closer match up.
Lots learned - i really thought the manticores would be the big threat but the tank commanders were bloody terrifying, with each being able to roll 2 D6 and pick the highest - twice. Most times he would get 10-11 shots off.
Still enjoyed the game, very nice humble guy to play against - but i do think it will be some time before I play 2,000 points again.
I've never really played Eldar, and I have an inherited Eldar army that I got from a friend that I have subsequently supplemented via the inclusion of LOTS of Wraithguard (about 3 boxes + the Apocalypse box).
I just got myself 6 new Jetbikes and I'm wondering what people arm them with these days?
I think the days of the Scatterbikes is behind us, but do people go all Shuricannons instead, or a mix of weapons, or what?
The new bikes are not hard to magnetize.
With the historically crappy internal balance of Eldar codexes, and the ease of setting them up for weapons swaps, I strongly recommend magnets everywhere you can.
I’ve not brought my Eldar to the table in 9th, so can’t give concrete advise.
What do you need them to do? If they plan on spending all their time zipping around and taking actions, cheep and cheerful might be best. What craftworld attributes you take will also skew things.
Crafter91 wrote: First 2,000 pt game tomorrow - making the trip over to Warhammer World for the occasion
Up against Guard - i'll be surprised if i don't have three Manticores to contend with, among other artillery.
Expecting the outcome of the game to be largely decided by who gets the first turn...
Any tips? I'll have a crimson hunter exarch to get across the board quickly and cause some trouble, and will be using War Walkers to come on the board from the back on turn two.
Beyond that, I feel like my other units will largely be used as target practice
Well - it was a fun game but an absolute massacre none-the-less.
I was up against 2 manticores, three tank commanders and a basilisk
I won the first turn roll off and managed to kill a manticore - it exploded and plinked a couple of wounds off the second manticore sat next to it.
Generally i was rolling ok (ish) but my damage rolls were really letting me down so it took a lot of fire power to remove it from the table.
Then in his turn one, sheer volume of shots brought down my crimson hunter and wave serpent - both exploded then taking wounds off other units nearby.
There wasn't a huge amount of terrain on the table which really didn't work in my favour either.
He shot me off a centre objective on one side. The other i was holding with a unit of blades which he charged. He didn't kill anything but obsec worked to his advantage and was enough to stop me scoring.
The following turn i feigned retreat from that unit to shoot them off it while still being within 3" of the objective. Shooting was a flop. I charged them again with the blades and killed all but one lousy guardsman meaning he scored the primary for it at the start of his next turn.
I brought on my walkers as planned, as well as a guardian bomb to try and reclaim the objective i lost on the previous turn, which I did (before getting shot off it again in the next turn)
In his turn two, heavy bolter shots reaped havoc through my army. Hitting on 4s because i used master of concealment, but more often than not, rerolling ones. then wounding on 2s with flat 2 damage was just a killer.
At the start of turn three, the only unit remaining was my wraith blades and a farseer - we played it out anyway in the interest of good sport, and they were able to wipe a unit of bulgryns, before being flattened in his turn. At this point i had no spiritseer to buff them.
Completely tabled by turn 3 with a rather embarrassing score card of 8 - 59. (or 18-69 if you want to count painted bonus).
My biggest issue for sure (aside from bad damage rolls) was that i barely had the units to make up 2000 points so rather than it being overly 'strong' i was taking units for the sake of filling points. Was lovely to see my fully painted army on the table at the same time but ultimately, ineffective in it's capabilities.
I have agreed a rematch with him using a 1,500 point list which should hopefully be a closer match up.
Lots learned - i really thought the manticores would be the big threat but the tank commanders were bloody terrifying, with each being able to roll 2 D6 and pick the highest - twice. Most times he would get 10-11 shots off.
Still enjoyed the game, very nice humble guy to play against - but i do think it will be some time before I play 2,000 points again.
Model collection is certainly a significant factor in a game.
The command tanks are fairly tough to handle and you mentioned not a lot of terrain. That is a very significant factor. I generally cut down/remove fire lanes from the Leman Russ tanks with the exception of a buffed unit of Wraithblades (Fortune/Protect) through movement and terrain. Chip away at what I can and ensure the Wraithblades become a serious threat. I run a unit of 10 and they are the biggest threat for my opponent as there is not much he can do to defend against them and prevents the IG from taking board control (and the central objectives).
Fliers are in a rough spot. Fliers against IG is challenging. Cloudstrike is something to review tomar least allow it to shoot one time.
Losses happen and the best thing is to learn from them. 1500 points sounds like a better option based upon model collection size. I found, if using 44x60 board size, 2000 points can become crowded and 1500 points opened up some space in games. Good luck next time.
If your table is open battlefield then tank commanders have to be dealt with first. Then anything with flat 3 (against wraithguard).
Use lots of small units of guardians or dire avengers to hold objectives or clear guardsmen. I don't even use flyers anymore, got any falcons, those coming in from reserve tooled up with brightlances or ELMs aren't too bad if you are going to plink wounds off tank commanders.
Crafter91 wrote: There wasn't a huge amount of terrain on the table which really didn't work in my favour either.
He shot me off a centre objective on one side. The other i was holding with a unit of blades which he charged. He didn't kill anything but obsec worked to his advantage and was enough to stop me scoring.
The following turn i feigned retreat from that unit to shoot them off it while still being within 3" of the objective. Shooting was a flop. I charged them again with the blades and killed all but one lousy guardsman meaning he scored the primary for it at the start of his next turn.
Oof, this one hurts quite a bit. That was a smart gambit on the IG player to throw some ObSec troops in there and hope they survive long enough to deny you points and earn him points. While Guardsmen are pretty weak, our Wraithblades aren't as much of a blender as other units so completely wiping a unit can be difficult. Also hurts when your shooting after the feigned retreat didn't pay out like you hoped.
I don't have a lot of experience playing Guard armies but if I were in your shoes and had to deal with that amount of tanks / artilleries I would consider more Bright Lances and possibly even the Hemlock Wraithfighter who's D-Cannon can be nasty, just very expensive. For Bright Lances I'd stick them on War Walkers or Wraithlords, I would avoid putting it on the Wave serpent since they are usually a priority target for the enemy.
I've also heard that Fire Prisms are decent in 9th but have not yet had a chance to try them. Strategy appears to be one poking out while the other(s) indirect fires through it.
AdMech are going to be a rough match-up (speaking as an AdMech player). The specifics are going to vary pretty wildly depending on their build, because most of the book is worth taking. In general, I'd say to hold back and preserve yourself into the later rounds. AdMech have to call their global buffs at the start of the Battle Round and can't re-use them. If you can psych your opponent out and make them waste the buffs, they lose a lot of their power. Consider reserving most of your army, and bring deepstrike threats. When you choose to arrive, make sure literally everything can participate. If you come in piece meal, the AdMech units are fast enough to support each other, and you'll end up fighting a couple rounds of 2k vs 1k and get demolished.
You're a bit limited on unit choices, but here's what I think. While you're waiting for your opportunity, you'll need to hit them without getting hit in return. Dark Reapers using Fire and Fade and Support Weapons using D cannons are a decent start. Wraithblades can go toe to toe with most of their melee threats. I'd deepstrike the Fire Dragons, Banshees, and the Scorpions, and bring them in with the Warwarlkers. That's ~550 points in reserve; I'd spend another 3 CP reserving up to the limit: Crimson Hunter, maybe the Wave Serpent and the Dire Avengers. It costs half your CP, but you'll leave him nothing to do for 2 turns while you shell him with artillery, then pop out all at once and nuke his critical targets.
EDIT: Considering this problem did make me re-evaluate my ideas for my burgeoning Iyanden army. Going up to 1500, I'm considering this:
The idea is the same as I proposed above: reserve the Avengers for 1 CP, Webway the Wraithguard for another, and infiltrate the Scorpions. On the board, I'll have 2 Wraithseers and a Spiritseer together behind cover, and the Dark Reapers and Farseer also behind cover. The Wraithblades and relic Spiritseer are in the Wave Serpent, tucked away in the back. It's pretty easy to get up to shenanigans with Phantasm, since I can redeploy the Wraithseers and Spiritseer as a block, or the Wave Serpent, Dark Reapers, and Farseer as the only other units on the board to pile up on one side.
Hopefully I can shell the Christ out of them with impunity, and Smite anything that gets close. When they're weakened, then we lunge forward and bring in the reserves. Ideally the Wraithguard arrive within range of the relic Spiritseer using Guided Wraithsight on both Wraiths, but the other Spiritseer could Quicken forward to provide it too. The infantry, and particularly the Scorpions, can score action secondaries.
I did lose, but not as badly as I thought. Lots of terrain certainly helped.
He won the first turn roll off and managed to take out the two walkers I had included in my list which was a big hit (four bright lances gone)
Some very bad rolling in turn two (total roll of 1s and 2s from my deepstriking fire dragons....) which meant units that I really needed to remove stayed on for a turn longer than I wanted.
It was a very low scoring game on both sides as the mission required you to hold two objectives to score anything for primaries and we were both usually clearing them well - We struggled to score more than 5 points per turn.
By turn three after trading shots, he had a lot more units left so was able to start scoring for primaries from turn four onwards.
At the end of turn four I conceeded with only a Farseer and Spiritseer left on the table. I sort of wish I had gone the distance just to say that I had - lots of people expected i would be tabled by turn two.
Overall a good game and one that I certainly learned from. Could have played out differently with some better rolls but that's the game!
Vibro cannons seem extremely finicky. You need to draw line of sight with all of them to the same target, and they're not particularly durable. Against T7 3+, the first one deals 0.67 wounds, the second averages 1.2, and the third gets 1.8. 135 points to do 3.67 wounds? Nah.
However, Kyle Parry's Harli+Craftworld list did just win the Dicehammer Open and it included 3 Shadow weaver artillery.
Warp Spiders [4 PL, 90pts] . 4x Warp Spider: 4x Death Spinner . Warp Spider Exarch: Two Death Spinners . . Exarch Power: Web of Deceit
Warp Spiders [4 PL, 90pts] . 4x Warp Spider: 4x Death Spinner . Warp Spider Exarch: Two Death Spinners . . Exarch Power: Web of Deceit
+ Heavy Support +
Support Weapons [8 PL, 100pts] . Support Weapon: Shadow Weaver . Support Weapon: Shadow Weaver
Support Weapons [4 PL, 50pts] . Support Weapon: Shadow Weaver
The idea is the artillery basically ensure 2 quarters for Engage, and the Warp Spiders can zip around scoring objectives at will. It's actually made me change my mind to take Warp Spiders over Scorpions for the job.
In my experience weapon platforms are fairly durable, especially if they're hanging out in the backfield. They're great for sitting on objectives and screening out reserves. You can even play Celestial Shield on them for added durability, though that's usually better saved for your Guardian infantry.
Vibro cannon are vastly improved by the Expert Crafters trait. If you play with different traits consider using Doom to help them out. They used to be much better in 8th before the cap on bonuses to wound, but they're still useful.
does anyone use the D-cannon support weapons? With smaller board sizes I would imagine they could get some work done, but then again they would probably get targeted ASAP by the enemy.
warpedpig wrote: does anyone use the D-cannon support weapons? With smaller board sizes I would imagine they could get some work done, but then again they would probably get targeted ASAP by the enemy.
Oh man, I love my D-cannon -- they hit like a truck, especially with Expert Crafters. It's usually not too hard to hide them at first, as most boards in 9th edition have a fair amount of LOS-blocking terrain. This, of course, makes the D-cannon even better, as they ignore LOS.
I find it's best to be aggressive with them. Don't be afraid to move them up or expose them to enemy fire, so long as you get in range of juicy target. It really helps to have a screening unit too, like a big unit of Wraithblades or Guardians. That will keep the enemy off the D-cannon and give them the room they need to maneuver.
warpedpig wrote: does anyone use the D-cannon support weapons? With smaller board sizes I would imagine they could get some work done, but then again they would probably get targeted ASAP by the enemy.
Oh man, I love my D-cannon -- they hit like a truck, especially with Expert Crafters. It's usually not too hard to hide them at first, as most boards in 9th edition have a fair amount of LOS-blocking terrain. This, of course, makes the D-cannon even better, as they ignore LOS.
I find it's best to be aggressive with them. Don't be afraid to move them up or expose them to enemy fire, so long as you get in range of juicy target. It really helps to have a screening unit too, like a big unit of Wraithblades or Guardians. That will keep the enemy off the D-cannon and give them the room they need to maneuver.
Interesting.
I've been bulking at the price tag. Might do a list with these.
Ive ben considering sticking them on wraithseers but i think thats too many eggs in one basket.
I've used a unit of 3 and they are fairly reasonable. I'm still not a fan of the d6 damage mechanic. In my last game, I did shoot a D Cannon, getting 3 shots, 3 hits, 3 wounds, then rolled 2 x 1 and 6 for damage. Had to spend a CP to reroll one damage roll result to which resulted in destroying an IG tank in one volley. Expert Crafters helps tremendously ensuring the hits and wounds as the random number of shots can be a bit disappointing.
Need some help with this list. I need the Minimum number of changes to make the list decent. This is for a friend, I destroyed this list for the 3rd time, and he's gone 1st all three games. Its faced casual tau (8th ed game, I had 7 drones total?), casual world eaters (posted here), and casual deathguard (maybe its casual). Currently its a patrol + outrider detachment.
3 Warwalkers with brightlance
3 warwalkers with missile launchers
I ran a bunch of stuff
fabius bile (meh, modifed 2 units, otherwise useless)
master of executions with talisman of burning blood and flames of spite (relic good, trait meh, he's a murder machine, even with failing to hurt a farseer, killed a bike unit)
10 cultists (awesome for doing nothing)
10 cultists (awesome for doing nothing)
5 beserkers (sat on objective, doing nothing, fabius modified them, killing 1, and making them T5)
5 beserkers (sat in rhino all game)
5 beserkers (killed 2 vipers, 1 in turn 2, 1 in turn 3)
5 beserkers (died, no honor)
5 possessed (died, spectacular glory)
5 havocs 4 x heavy bolters (survived fabius bile, and toughness 6! Were never shot at, killed 1 viper I think?)
8 raptors, champ with lightning claw 1 plasma pistol (MVP unit, killed 6 bikes,1 farseer, 1 warlock, and 1 viper, Champ surived the game)
8 raptors, champ with lightning claw 2 plasma pistol (unit was wiped turn 1)
1 Defiler (unit was wiped turn 1)
1 Heldrake (unit was wiped turn 1)
1 dreadclaw (unit was wiped turn 2 didn't do anything)
1 helbrute (came in with dreadclaw, kiled to vipers with a 12" charge, absolutely beautiful, and then it was wiped turn 2)
Rhino (lost 4 wounds, failed to repair)
Rhino (moved 17 one turn)
Rhino (moved 13 one turn)
And I had 5 terminators, who sat in the back field doing... literally nothing.
In this last game, Overrun, he went first,
Turn 1: He killed 2 defiler, heldrake and 1 raptor unit & claimed 3
objectives.
My Turn 1: cultists raised banners, fabius bile modified +1 Toughness to havocs, my other unit of raptors made a long charge to one of his bike units, killed them and consolidated into a farseer. Dreadclaw came in, got a 10" charge on 2 vipers, and the dreadnought did the same thing. They killed the 2 vipers pretty good. Main goal was steal one of his primary objectives, now I was sitting on 4 objectives. Sent my possessed off to the center of the board to stop the warp ritual, killing 4 bikes.
Turn 2: Farseer against raptors... didn't go so well for him, I stopped the smite, and let him do everything else. Firepower killed the dread and dreadclaw easily. Raptors spent 4cp to fight again and veterans, which killed the farseer and his warlock buddy. The rest of his army killed 5 very very very resistant possessed. (did I mention lucky too?)
My turn 2: Master of executions risked it and made an average charge against the center of the board, which had 6 new bikes, and 2 farseers. All attacks on the farseer, and I discovered a very very luck farseer, no damage landed. I pushed on the left and right flanks, managed to kill a viper on either side, and saw some vp for engage on all fronts again. And scored 15vp for primary.
Turn 3, he scores 5 for primary again, He's unable to dislodge me from 3 objectives, so I'm going to collect 10vp. Master of executions survives somehow, and my raptor unit is reduced to 2 models, and 1 after a failed morale, but passed combat attrition.
My turn 3, I kill 2 more vipers, push 3 rhino's to his side of the board, and overrun 3 lucky beserkers into a unit of warwalkers pinning them against a building.
At this point we kinda call it. 2 farseers and 1 viper aren't good enough to deny any of the 3 objectives on my side of the board. One warwalker unit is tied up and he's low enough on cp, he can do a desperate break out, but no feigned retreat. He can kill the rhinos or some troops, either way I'm sitting on 5 objectives at bottom of 3.
My guess if he could kill 3 rhinos in 2 more turns, he might make 10more points primary, he got his 12 for warp ritual, and 6 for grind them down, and nothing on engage. So... 48points. I got 45 primary, 13 raise banners, 9or 10 engage, 9 or 10 bring it down, so... 88 points
87 to 45 for Khorne.
I can see he's not being careful enough about my assaults (I'll work on that, he needs to understand why I position my units behind walls or leave them in the rhinos) And he's lacking a counter charge unit for when I'm in his face, but his list isn't holding objectives and certaintly and more importantly, can't take them away from me either.
So if anyone has advice, on the least changes he needs to be more competative. BTW his army is not magnetized and its very nicely painted.
Wibdriders are crap. Shuriken windriders are extremely expensive for what they bring. If he can id proxy them as shining spears.
Run vypers only with single star can each. And only run 3 single ones as msu for expert crafters.
I dont think 1 units of walkers armed with star canon and aml a piece would be decent. 2 ubits seems bit redundant. You can only guide one unit.
I think the list needs more troops for ob sec/ actions and maybe some falcoln/ wave serpent as well as some CC. Wraithblade axes are excellent counter charge/line holding unit. Also the humble guardian blob delets units.
With celestial shield and protect they are tanky fir their stats
Not sure what models are available but what the list currently brings is an abundance of 0ap str 6 shuriken canons. You can only doom one unit and guide one unit. Building an msu style list for expert crafters with one or two alpha units for buffs and some cc element is the cwe way currently imo.
Argive wrote: Wibdriders are crap. Shuriken windriders are extremely expensive for what they bring. If he can id proxy them as shining spears.
Run vypers only with single star can each. And only run 3 single ones as msu for expert crafters.
I dont think 1 units of walkers armed with star canon and aml a piece would be decent. 2 ubits seems bit redundant. You can only guide one unit.
I think the list needs more troops for ob sec/ actions and maybe some falcoln/ wave serpent as well as some CC. Wraithblade axes are excellent counter charge/line holding unit. Also the humble guardian blob delets units.
With celestial shield and protect they are tanky fir their stats
Not sure what models are available but what the list currently brings is an abundance of 0ap str 6 shuriken canons. You can only doom one unit and guide one unit. Building an msu style list for expert crafters with one or two alpha units for buffs and some cc element is the cwe way currently imo.
Basically your are saying this list is mostly rubbish. That's unfortunate news. I don't think he's a got much more than this.
Sarigar wrote: I've used a unit of 3 and they are fairly reasonable. I'm still not a fan of the d6 damage mechanic. In my last game, I did shoot a D Cannon, getting 3 shots, 3 hits, 3 wounds, then rolled 2 x 1 and 6 for damage. Had to spend a CP to reroll one damage roll result to which resulted in destroying an IG tank in one volley. Expert Crafters helps tremendously ensuring the hits and wounds as the random number of shots can be a bit disappointing.
My past two games I've faced off against Mortarion and two C'Tan. My army has six D-cannon (three platforms, two Warp Hunters, one Wraithseer), which seems like a lot of firepower. However, in both games the D-cannon failed to kill their targets due to poor rolls on my part and hot rolls by my opponent. When you roll small numbers of dice you're less likely to collapse on the average and more likely to get outlier results -- Mortarion should have taken over thirty wounds but only took ten while one of the C'tan made nine out of ten 4+ saves, but neither of those results are especially improbable.
Argive wrote: Wibdriders are crap. Shuriken windriders are extremely expensive for what they bring. If he can id proxy them as shining spears.
Run vypers only with single star can each. And only run 3 single ones as msu for expert crafters.
I dont think 1 units of walkers armed with star canon and aml a piece would be decent. 2 ubits seems bit redundant. You can only guide one unit.
I think the list needs more troops for ob sec/ actions and maybe some falcoln/ wave serpent as well as some CC. Wraithblade axes are excellent counter charge/line holding unit. Also the humble guardian blob delets units.
With celestial shield and protect they are tanky fir their stats
Not sure what models are available but what the list currently brings is an abundance of 0ap str 6 shuriken canons. You can only doom one unit and guide one unit. Building an msu style list for expert crafters with one or two alpha units for buffs and some cc element is the cwe way currently imo.
Basically your are saying this list is mostly rubbish. That's unfortunate news. I don't think he's a got much more than this.
I think with some proxying things could improve. Mainly proxy the jetbikes for shining spears. That should massively improve the performance.
Sarigar wrote: I've used a unit of 3 and they are fairly reasonable. I'm still not a fan of the d6 damage mechanic. In my last game, I did shoot a D Cannon, getting 3 shots, 3 hits, 3 wounds, then rolled 2 x 1 and 6 for damage. Had to spend a CP to reroll one damage roll result to which resulted in destroying an IG tank in one volley. Expert Crafters helps tremendously ensuring the hits and wounds as the random number of shots can be a bit disappointing.
My past two games I've faced off against Mortarion and two C'Tan. My army has six D-cannon (three platforms, two Warp Hunters, one Wraithseer), which seems like a lot of firepower. However, in both games the D-cannon failed to kill their targets due to poor rolls on my part and hot rolls by my opponent. When you roll small numbers of dice you're less likely to collapse on the average and more likely to get outlier results -- Mortarion should have taken over thirty wounds but only took ten while one of the C'tan made nine out of ten 4+ saves, but neither of those results are especially improbable.
That is why I stated I'm not a big fan of the d6 damage mechanic or d3 shot mechanic.
I've been trying to put together a max dakka list for craftworlds. This is basically two farseers trying to buff 3 falcons, 3 prisms, 3 war walkers and 6 reapers.
The reapers will fire and fade in and out of one of the falcons and the 3 walkers will target deep strikers with forewarned and provide hefty anti horde fire.
The dire avengers will screen and maybe score objectives at some point.
I've been interested in trying a vehicle heavy list again now that a lot of the armies have changed since early 9th edition. Overall, a solid amount of shooting from you army.
As you have 2 Farseers, I recommend the Skyrunner Farseer have Smite, Doom, Exexcutioner.
The other Farseer with Focus Will, Guide, Fortune.
I prefer using a larger unit of Reapers when planning for Fire and Fade. I utilize a Wave Serpent with Cannon/Catapult, Spirit Stones and Vectored Engines. It will be more resilient than a Falcon and opt to make the Serpent as difficult to target as possible.
Your list would do well with Retrieve Octarius Data, Engage on all Fronts, and potentially Grind Them Down. Spend 1 CP to put up to 4 units of DA in Strategic to score a lot of your secondaries as well as mitigate against Grind Them Down.
I think 3 Fire Prisms is one too many. For 55 or so more points, you could have 2 x Prisms and 1 x Lynx. Or for 25 extra points you could take 2 x Prisms and 2 x Hornets with Hornet Pulse Lasers. Dropping one squad of Avengers pretty much would get you these options.
1. yeah. I always bring an executioner seer normally if I run two. that way you can hit that perfect turn with the strat to play another power. I do, however, find it a bit more reliable to have twin doom or guide. more boring too, though, and less versatile. so I think that for the optimal list it is better to have the MW potential of the execuseer.
2. yeah definitely 10 reapers is better for optimal use of fire n fade. especially if you know they will be the target of guide every turn. Thing is, with this build I try to run several big shooting units. sometimes the war walker unit will definitely get guide over the reapers and id love for the reapers to be one of a few big targets for my opponent. this is also why I dont bother with vectored for -1 to hit on the falcon. prolly should find those ten points, though. long story short: right now its six reapers and falcons but the list could definitely be tuned towards 10 and a serpent. I just love that pulse laser and a missile launcher to surf the backline and do long range stuff.
3. you're absolutely right. the serpent is a 2-3 off in all my lists normally. my balanced list runs 2x the vectored/cannon/cannnon/cannon builds you mention and its magical. but here I want to test those triple falcons for the heavy firepower. (Also, I know it sounds silly but the vectored serpent with 10 firedragons with swiftstep has really done great for me the last couple of weeks.)
4. heres a thing: I own 3 prisms, and have NEVER fielded them. I still dont really know what to do with them. they seem very weak even with the double tap. I run 3 because adrian from TTT always does that and more importantly to get the most out of linked fire. honestly, though, they just seem like three really clumsy and low output pieces. are they even viable? I dont see them in lists these days. any tips on how to play them will be welcomed.
Sadly, I dont own the lynx. I could proxy it just to see how it plays, though. I have 2 lynx in the making. Cant wait t use them. Would you say, they are better than a prism? never tried them yet.
5. DAs in reserve (web way strike, guess?) to prevent grind is cool. Never thought of that : )
For engage or octarous, yeah for sure.
6. Is students of vaul worth it? I think you inspired my in the last thread, actually : )
I enjoy sharing Craftworld ideas. I've discovered some great ideas that played well on this thread.
DA. A squad of 5 is 2 Power Level. With your list, you can pay 1 CP and put 4 x 5 Dire Avengers in Strategic Reserve and leave one unit in a Falcon. Turn 1, the squad disembarks and starts Retrieve Octarius Data. Turn 2, either use the same unit or bring one squad in from strategic reserve to perform Retrieve Octarius Data as well as assist in Engage on all Fronts. Turn 3, bring kinnthe others positioned to perform the action in a third table quarter, and set up the other to finish the secondary on turn 4. Admittedly, it works much easier with a unit of Warp Spiders, but trying not to alter too much of your list.
The challenge I see with the Fire Prisms is the desire to utilize Linked Fire. I feel it is a bit hit or miss in utility. Shooting three feels a bit like overkill, but I faced someone using Magnus yesterday and if I had 3 Fire Prisms, Magnus would have been extremely challenged to survive. However, armies have changed quite a bit over the past year and with Orks and AdMech potentially putting out large squads, the Fire Prism may have more added utility with its Dispersed Mode (Heavy, d6, Blast). I added a unit of Spectres in my army for this purpose, but those armies with large squads are not nearly as common as I expected. It has been so long since I've used Fire Prisms, I'd recommend to play a few games with them and see if they fit your needs.
I like the Lynx and would likely run 2 If I could reasonably buy an second (Forgeworld has been sold out and EBay prices have been a bit silly).
The one challenge I would caution with a vehicle heavy list is its inherent deficiency to contest primary objectives. This was a key item in my games which pushed me towards adding in durability to contestthe midboard objectives (10 Wraithblades). I don't like advising folks to simply change out their army as that is not overly helpful. But, I do like to share what challenges I faced running something similar to your army.
I like Pulse Lasers very much. But what this means is the tank(s) you will be utilizing to hide your Reapers will also be shooting, placing them in LOS to opposing shooting. And there can be some very efficient shooting nowadays. That is why I opted for a Wave Serpent with poor shooting. It eliminates the temptation to put the tank in harm's way as its real,purpose is to protect the Reapers.
I think Vaul's Wrath has its place. I am just unsure if it offers more utility than Masterful Shots. As more 9th edition codexes are released, the ability to ignore cover saves may be less impactful. A lot of this depends on what your local meta is.
Let us know what works and didn't work in your games. There are a few Craftworld enthusiasts still around.
Having run three fire prisms against Death Guard, I liked them a lot although when I ran two against a faster moving army, they were very hard to hide so I don't think three are worth bringing imo as most of the fast moving armies have the option of finding LoS on your hidden tanks. Definitely the utility between the different profiles is nothing to be sniffed at, but you really are relying on them and they're quite regularly the unit that opponents try to kill if they can. Tried Students of Vaul myself and honestly, with the amount of firepower in the game right now, there is little value in an additional wound per turn.
I think Guide on the second seer is redundant, you have enough rerolls between the two seers to have it reliably go off and be out of range for denials. There are also better powers to be denying for most armies.
Going for a different looking list to my usual tank heavy list today. Dropped fire prisms for a Wraithseer for extra psychic support and more anti-tank threat as well as a D-Cannon for extra LoS ignoring shooting. Still working out what I want from the range of units I currently have and the tournament I'm attending is a few weeks away. No rules pack yet but keen on making a list that works well off Expert Crafters although I've got a guide seer in there for the Dark Reaper blob. My main secondaries I'm going for are ROD, Engage and something else depending on the mission. I know I'm low on troops but I can stick them in reserve/webway for later in the game and the Warp Spider get me full ROD most games. I am hoping that the list is easier to hide against T1 shooting and that I have enough durability with my Wave Serpents if they are left in the open. I give away 10 points for Bring It Down with this list and I hope that Grind Them Down is less of an easy option against the army. The war walkers are getting bright lances today as EMLs I struggle with due to their low AP but it does offer a new problem against hordes. I'm hoping that a protected squad of blades helps to hold up the midfield or prove to be a tough nut to crack on an objective. Finally, I know the warlock is in the wrong detachment but I need the warlord to be in the Patrol to refund me the 2CP, hoping the reroll he gets helps the consistency of the casting. It's been fun reading everyone else's experiences and games, hopefully I can add my own voice to the choir.
just for the record this is my balanced list made for winning. it is undefeated in my playgroup and routinely maxes out scramblers (dont remember the new name), engage and a third. Often Raise banners, actually. Recent wins vs orks (old rules), sisters, blood angels, Death Guard.
i plan on tinkering with it for details.
- maybe two small units of spears instead of on big, but I dont think so as the vipers and falcons and scorpions fill that role. I need a big centerpiece like that.
- the list really likes expert crafters but with the 3 war walker I break that trend. its just to good with forewarned and guide. vs hordes especially.
- the spears used to be 10 reapers and then it was 10 firedragons. amazing in the vectored bus. but in the end I figured I had enough shooting without them and went for a fast melee unit.
- the heroes of the lists are the avengers always. moving up to 6man squads seems silly because blast but those 14 shots with masterful/hail of doom/bladestorm means they can actually pack a punch. the reason why I thought of six was that I wanted to try avenging blows but haven't done so yet. could be a thing? Problem is, tho, that these guys mostly just sit in a tank or do actions so maybe going down to fivemans again could be ok. It would net me a few more points. maybe to go up to 9 spears? or add another psyker.
the cool thing is that this list can be all over the place and it can shift its focus so easily. I can hide all infantry In tanks t1 and be super flexible between that and phantasm if needed. the war walker blob is amazing and the falcons kick ass when they focus something down and jet off. extra points if I go to 5man avengers again could actually go to more speed on those three falcons.
(exarch powers, psychic powers and stuff like that is not chosen perfectly in this extract. Presume optimal solutions all around. skilled rider for spears exarch etc.)
has anyone tried the 3x3 spears setup over the 9blob? im not sure its that good actually. saves are great, mobility, expert crafters potential and secondaries scoring should be good but they dont really clear out a lot of stuff, id say. you move up, shoot 12 shuriken shots with a reroll and then charge for 4 s6 and 3 s8 attacks with the star lance and another reroll. obviously, you can have several units of them going for the same target, but opponent will be able to interrupt fight order with the start and all in all the kill potential seems less.
are the extra exarchs and their abilities worth it?
My game ended up against Farsight Enclaves which I lost to previously. With removing the fire prisms and getting used to the missions more and more, I had a pretty good game, with a final score of 74-72 in the Craftworld's favour playing the Surround and Destroy mission.
Realistically, I made a few blunders which made the game far closer than it needed to be. I used up a CP for a failed psychic test which meant I had no leftover CP to get my Dark Reapers into their transport again and lost the entire squad to breacher fire on turn three. I could have denied points and gained points early on in the game but I played more conservatively in the hopes I would make it to the late game and that did indeed work quite well. I did have ample opportunities to not be shot off the board so I could have made the decision to go for more objectives early on.
I feel the Vyper I had didn't do much. I held it back early on to use it later for sitting on an objective or netting me more points for engage on all fronts which it did achieve. Not sure what I'd spend the 50 points on otherwise.
I was pleased with the D-Cannons from the Wraithseer and the Support Platform, and they were neat tools in giving me indirect fire opportunities. Having the extra protect/jinx was very nice as I could protect my wraithblades which I quickened up the board and proved to be a tough nut to crack over a couple of turns of shooting. I am pleased with the Bright Lances overall. I don't think I'll be winning many games against Ad Mech in their current guise so the ability to have so many rerolling anti-tank shots was a massive help and the extra AP vs EMLs was huge difference and I don't feel like I need to return to EMLs.
Next time I'll add the farseer to the patrol to gain the seer council strat with the warlock, I definitely feel it is very important to have that option.
@Scoundrel, I find Spears are more powerful run as bigger units as while the extra durability from the extra exarchs are valuable, I want to be able to get them all into combat at once, and MSU doesn't allow for that. Same goes for Reapers, fire and fade is considerably less impactful and cannot be guided. I am also curious as to how you use your falcons, they go down easily to dedicated shooting and they're tough to hide if you run a lot of them which leaves them open to poor trading.
Grats on your win. Yeah, the 3man spears is something I have never used before. I just read somewhere that they were the hottest thing right now for space elves so im planning on doing it. I always run a blob of 7-9 normally a you can see in my normal patrol/bataleon list above.
In regard to the falcons I just feel they trade wonderfully, to be honest. I love running three of them. They do it all. Run up the board with avengers in them to get shot and unload, hold the back line, draw fire from that important piece (spears blob, vectored buss with axes, reaper bus, firedragon bus). Everytime they get shot at theres an important piece that doesn't get shot at and they are pretty dangerous if left alone. pulse, pulse, krak or pulse, pulse, starcannon x2 can be really brutal. They are good with crafters and with good maneuverability, the -1 strat and spirit stones I feel I can usually keep one alive though a turn of fire. or at least have only one go down. I used to run one and was always very disappointed with them. 2-3 is a whole new level of threat saturation and with the AML they have great versatility and range control, imo.
its the same thing with war walkers and vipers. 1 is a waste of points. 3 is a real threat with lots of utility.
Actually im tinkering with brigade build for the exact same reason these days. multiple threats with lots of utility and focus on our only real good buffs: psychics and expert crafters. something like 3x war walkers, 3x vipers, 6x 5 avengers fills those slots op no problem and you can then do 4 psykers with no CP penalty. its a whole new way of doing it. for me at least : )
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, you are right in regards to the falcons being somewhat terrain-dependent. They are not hindered by terrain due to fly and can draw huge advantage from that. So if the terrain doesn't really support that and you can't control engagements with obscuring pieces or with range in a reasonable way, they loose some of their appeal for sure.
btw I can't get over the thought of assurmen and a warlock in a wave serpent with 10 avengers with avenging blows. the unit swarms an objective and gets 3++ from protect. if one dies they all hit on 2s and wound t5 on 4s and marines on 3s. add hail of doom and that unit is a real threat that moves 11 inches on average. add the 5+++ from a farseer and its even better. it can fall back and shoot and assurmen can mop up in melee/heroically.
I've run assurmen with MSU avengers and its meh. you cant exploit the 3++ as the opponent will just shoot another unit. also, assurmen is just too expensive. would this be worth it or is it still just a bit silly?
Tyranid Horde wrote: Having run three fire prisms against Death Guard, I liked them a lot although when I ran two against a faster moving army, they were very hard to hide so I don't think three are worth bringing imo as most of the fast moving armies have the option of finding LoS on your hidden tanks. Definitely the utility between the different profiles is nothing to be sniffed at, but you really are relying on them and they're quite regularly the unit that opponents try to kill if they can. Tried Students of Vaul myself and honestly, with the amount of firepower in the game right now, there is little value in an additional wound per turn.
I think Guide on the second seer is redundant, you have enough rerolls between the two seers to have it reliably go off and be out of range for denials. There are also better powers to be denying for most armies.
Going for a different looking list to my usual tank heavy list today. Dropped fire prisms for a Wraithseer for extra psychic support and more anti-tank threat as well as a D-Cannon for extra LoS ignoring shooting. Still working out what I want from the range of units I currently have and the tournament I'm attending is a few weeks away. No rules pack yet but keen on making a list that works well off Expert Crafters although I've got a guide seer in there for the Dark Reaper blob. My main secondaries I'm going for are ROD, Engage and something else depending on the mission. I know I'm low on troops but I can stick them in reserve/webway for later in the game and the Warp Spider get me full ROD most games. I am hoping that the list is easier to hide against T1 shooting and that I have enough durability with my Wave Serpents if they are left in the open. I give away 10 points for Bring It Down with this list and I hope that Grind Them Down is less of an easy option against the army. The war walkers are getting bright lances today as EMLs I struggle with due to their low AP but it does offer a new problem against hordes. I'm hoping that a protected squad of blades helps to hold up the midfield or prove to be a tough nut to crack on an objective. Finally, I know the warlock is in the wrong detachment but I need the warlord to be in the Patrol to refund me the 2CP, hoping the reroll he gets helps the consistency of the casting. It's been fun reading everyone else's experiences and games, hopefully I can add my own voice to the choir.
I really like this style of list and congrats on the win. You definitely learned the one rule when using Reapers in a Wave Serpent; always keep,the CP for Fire and Fade. Opponents will almost always go after the Reapers if they are ever exposed.
Seer Council has been a very important. Our Psychic Phase plays a lot like other armies' Command Phase, except more difficult to cast and the loss of some Psychic powers can be debilitating.
I may be participating in a tourney in a couple weeks. If so, I'll post up my list for some discussion.
I too like the list. it packs a punch, and 10 well played reapers can really win games. my only gripe is that 10 models with obsec seems super thin. At least in my meta, Idont think I would be able to score a lot of primaries with that.
i guess you contest the midfield with the blades, try to sit on your own backfield with the 2x5 avengers maybe and then have spiders and the viper to score secondaries. The spears can mop up stuff or go deep to contest an objective too. Is this assessment way off?
Was screening a problem? also.. how did that 2man council perform? thats a fun little concept.
Scoundrel80 wrote: how did that 2man council perform? thats a fun little concept.
Not the OP on this topic, but I have used the 2 man council quite a bit. I find it's very binary. Against opponents who either forget that it's not subject to "look out sir" and can be targeted, or opponents with no indirect fire weapons on boards with a good place to hide them, they are fantastic. 36" Jinx is just spectacular.
Against savvier opponents with the wherewithal to remove them...they go down really really fast.
Scoundrel80 wrote:I too like the list. it packs a punch, and 10 well played reapers can really win games. my only gripe is that 10 models with obsec seems super thin. At least in my meta, Idont think I would be able to score a lot of primaries with that.
i guess you contest the midfield with the blades, try to sit on your own backfield with the 2x5 avengers maybe and then have spiders and the viper to score secondaries. The spears can mop up stuff or go deep to contest an objective too. Is this assessment way off?
Was screening a problem? also.. how did that 2man council perform? thats a fun little concept.
Honestly, the lack of troops could be a problem, but my intention is to reach the end of the game with this army to score primaries, thus I kept the two squads to turn 3 and 4 respectively to net some vital primaries later in the game. I expected the list to struggle with competing obsec units but found the shuriken fire and masterful shots be more than enough to shift all the infantry to the board in my game so obsec didn't matter as much.
The gameplan isn't far off what I do. In this game I went second so my opponent had moved up enough for me to achieve a first turn charge. I was able to throw the Blades using quicken and the additional movement gained from disembarking from a hidden wave serpent to make a first turn charge against some stealth suits in the mid board as well as make a charge against a ghostkeel and a devilfish to force a disengagement if I didn't kill everything in one go. Each unit took two turns to destroy as their 3++ invul saves were very dependable and forced my opponent to go around them or stay in combat, so they did what I wanted, albeit an expensive roadblock. The spears did some work on a ghostkeel in shooting and combat and the blades went through the stealth team and Farsight as he had intervened the previous turn. After that it was about targeting his movement potential and largely ignoring the blob of crisis suits he brought with farsight and whittling away at them from across the board with fire and fading Dark Reapers.
I kept the Dire Avengers in strategic reserves as I was able to hold my own objectives with my other units on the board. They came on in turns 3 and 4 on my own edge to do a ROD action as my opponent had screened well against the other sides of the board and my deepstriking Spiders. I deployed 2/3 war walkers to act as screening for the following turn and found it worked quite well. My opponent found it difficult to place some crisis suits in a meaningful place with the amount of individual large bases.
Verthane wrote:
Scoundrel80 wrote: how did that 2man council perform? thats a fun little concept.
Not the OP on this topic, but I have used the 2 man council quite a bit. I find it's very binary. Against opponents who either forget that it's not subject to "look out sir" and can be targeted, or opponents with no indirect fire weapons on boards with a good place to hide them, they are fantastic. 36" Jinx is just spectacular.
Against savvier opponents with the wherewithal to remove them...they go down really really fast.
Got it right, they are pretty easily countered with the right opponent. My opponent is used to me so was able to rival them with a Cold Star suit on turn two, but by that point, I feel they made their points back by using Jinx against the Ghostkeel who had a 4++ invul, allowing my other units to destroy it. 80 points for a 36" jinx/protect is very good I think with the potential for more if they survived longer.
sounds like an extremely well played game. i own custodes and crimson fists too and nothing is as exciting as when an eldar game goes like that. the fail margin is so narrow with craftworlds, Imo : )
a thing about masterful shots. I know its the second best trait on paper, but I dont like running it. I know its silly but its the truth. It makes my opponent do crazier stuff. be more unpredictable. and when I play eldar I want to be able to predict as much as possible. I bait, sacrifice units or good positions, lure a unit out, engage it from all sides and hopefully remove it, regroup rinse and repeat. if they suddenly have no incitement to stay behind some cool terrain piece or whatever, those patterns are harder to foresee. for me at least : ) they tend to play more aggressively with that trait on my lads, I think. Obviously, this can be used to my advantage too, but I guess my builds dont play into that tactic yet.. do any of you have the same experience with masterful shots or am I putting too much into that dynamic?
Scoundrel80 wrote: btw I can't get over the thought of assurmen and a warlock in a wave serpent with 10 avengers with avenging blows. the unit swarms an objective and gets 3++ from protect. if one dies they all hit on 2s and wound t5 on 4s and marines on 3s. add hail of doom and that unit is a real threat that moves 11 inches on average. add the 5+++ from a farseer and its even better. it can fall back and shoot and assurmen can mop up in melee/heroically.
I've run assurmen with MSU avengers and its meh. you cant exploit the 3++ as the opponent will just shoot another unit. also, assurmen is just too expensive. would this be worth it or is it still just a bit silly?
I've had modest success using three 10-strong squads of Dire Avengers, all with Avenging Strike and moving up on foot. You can take a Shimmer Shield if you don't have Asurmen or need to spread out. I usually play with Expert Crafters and Masters of Concealment.
Their offensive output is pretty good; usually one squad will get hammered pretty bad, but my opponents just can't resist sniping off one or two models from the other squads. This lets them punch pretty hard, and in melee a Dire Sword can produce the odd mortal wound for comedy purposes. Doom is very nice with this set-up, allowing you to pummel most infantry. Even Death Guard and Skitarii can get gunned down quick.
Ultimately, it's only 300-odd points of Troops, so you can't expect that much out of it. If anything I'd say that Dire Avengers are overpriced by a point or two, though that's more due to the ridiculous lethality of 40K at the moment than to any inherent flaws in the unit.
Scoundrel80 wrote:I too like the list. it packs a punch, and 10 well played reapers can really win games. my only gripe is that 10 models with obsec seems super thin. At least in my meta, Idont think I would be able to score a lot of primaries with that.
i guess you contest the midfield with the blades, try to sit on your own backfield with the 2x5 avengers maybe and then have spiders and the viper to score secondaries. The spears can mop up stuff or go deep to contest an objective too. Is this assessment way off?
Was screening a problem? also.. how did that 2man council perform? thats a fun little concept.
Honestly, the lack of troops could be a problem, but my intention is to reach the end of the game with this army to score primaries, thus I kept the two squads to turn 3 and 4 respectively to net some vital primaries later in the game. I expected the list to struggle with competing obsec units but found the shuriken fire and masterful shots be more than enough to shift all the infantry to the board in my game so obsec didn't matter as much.
The gameplan isn't far off what I do. In this game I went second so my opponent had moved up enough for me to achieve a first turn charge. I was able to throw the Blades using quicken and the additional movement gained from disembarking from a hidden wave serpent to make a first turn charge against some stealth suits in the mid board as well as make a charge against a ghostkeel and a devilfish to force a disengagement if I didn't kill everything in one go. Each unit took two turns to destroy as their 3++ invul saves were very dependable and forced my opponent to go around them or stay in combat, so they did what I wanted, albeit an expensive roadblock. The spears did some work on a ghostkeel in shooting and combat and the blades went through the stealth team and Farsight as he had intervened the previous turn. After that it was about targeting his movement potential and largely ignoring the blob of crisis suits he brought with farsight and whittling away at them from across the board with fire and fading Dark Reapers.
I kept the Dire Avengers in strategic reserves as I was able to hold my own objectives with my other units on the board. They came on in turns 3 and 4 on my own edge to do a ROD action as my opponent had screened well against the other sides of the board and my deepstriking Spiders. I deployed 2/3 war walkers to act as screening for the following turn and found it worked quite well. My opponent found it difficult to place some crisis suits in a meaningful place with the amount of individual large bases.
Verthane wrote:
Scoundrel80 wrote: how did that 2man council perform? thats a fun little concept.
Not the OP on this topic, but I have used the 2 man council quite a bit. I find it's very binary. Against opponents who either forget that it's not subject to "look out sir" and can be targeted, or opponents with no indirect fire weapons on boards with a good place to hide them, they are fantastic. 36" Jinx is just spectacular.
Against savvier opponents with the wherewithal to remove them...they go down really really fast.
Got it right, they are pretty easily countered with the right opponent. My opponent is used to me so was able to rival them with a Cold Star suit on turn two, but by that point, I feel they made their points back by using Jinx against the Ghostkeel who had a 4++ invul, allowing my other units to destroy it. 80 points for a 36" jinx/protect is very good I think with the potential for more if they survived longer.
A Coldstar unit for an 80 point Warlock Conclave is a great trade. That is what makes them good even when opponents know how useful they are. 80 points is a bargain.
honestly, I dont understand the point of that conclave unit. Please enlighten me : ) is it just for the 36 inch jinx basically? that I can understand. but if I had to build that unit id instinctively be drawn to running 7+ models for the big smite and a potential melee threat maybe. id probably leave it at the thought, though. This unit seems super hard to play and keep alive. The bike blob seems interesting but too expensive, I feel.
The two man conclave is a small hideable unit that is easy to forget about as previously mentioned. Having a 36" jinx is extremely good because you avoid denials outside of your opponent using a denial stratagem.
I found that the conclave forces your opponent to do something about it. My opponent effectively throwing away a Cold Star just to get rid of it is a good indication of how much trouble they can be for armies without stratagems or indirect fire. The option to pick between 2 different runes of battle gives some nice flexibility over a single warlock as well. It did take a little while for me to get used to it but I feel I have the hang of what it is meant to do in my army.
I ignore the smite/destructor and just pick another arbitrary power that I could use if I have nothing worth my other powers. They're just an extra power and deny at the end of the day. Would recommend giving it a go!
btw: I've been confusing the "pay I cp to put 4 units of DA in reserves" with the web way strat. couldn't make sense of it. Now it dawns upon me that you guys are simply talking about normal reserves! duh. thats a totally new thought for me with craftworlds. I routinely set up one unit in the web way but never in reserves. Is it worth it with the deployment restrictions and how do you guys normally use these units to best effect?
Automatically Appended Next Post: First of all, my apologies for spamming this page the last couple days. I’ve been vacating with the family and once the wife and kids crash I just really been feeling like building 40k lists : ) hope its not too much.
— Viable units —
Im trying to list all the assets that are viable for elder atm. With assets I mean units that work in some sort of battlefield role and can actually at least kind of hang compared to other factions. I often find my self putting together very specific lists (like all dakka, wraith heavy, melee focused, obsec heavy) first and then after a few games I pick out the best stuff from each build and aim for a broader, more complete build that can face a wider field of armies.
Here are my most used stuff. Feel free to add viable or semi viable stuff.
HQ Doom/guide farseer on bike or with wings.
Executioner farseer on bike.
Warlocks on bike
Assurmen. Not sure he’s viable at 160, though.
Spirit seer (sometimes to babysit wraithaxes or as an extra smite in MW builds.)
*Simply can’t make the autarchs worth their points. They have no gear and weak stats. Even the legends biker is almost not good enough. Do any of you have succes with autarchs?
Troops
Guardian bomb 16-20 dudes in web way.
5-6 x5 Dire avengers. To me the jury is out on whether 6mans are subpar.
Elites
8-10 firedragons with swift step. Yeah, probably not good enough.
5-10 Wraith blades/axes
Scorpions with stalker for secondaries
10 shadow spectres. Haven’t used them. Seem amazing. Would fewer work?
Fast attack
9 blob of spears
3 man units of spears? Still haven’t tried them.
5 spiders for secondaries.
Hornets
Vypers. Yup. Thats just me. Probably a subpar choice.
Heavy support
10 reapers
Night spinners/prisms. Not too keen on these on paper but they see play.
War walkers. They work both as 1 and 3 man units, imo.
Wraith seer
Falcon. I just love these. So versatile.
Flyer
Crimson hunter exarch. Expensive but pretty good, imo. Scores engage on turn one.
Transport
Stripped down meatshield Serpent just with spirit stones. Amazing.
Decked out transport Serpent for elites. Vectored, Shur-cannons, stones
Combat transport Serpent. Typically stones and star cannons or AML.
Battletank Serpent. vectored, CTM and appropriate weapons.
OK, so I've had this idea in my head for awhile and now I'm going to push forward with it.
I'm in the process of modeling wraithlords in aspect shrine colours/loadouts and want to get them on the table. Of course, the rule of 3 means I have to at least take some as Wraithseers. Here is what I'm thinking currently..
Asurmen
Jain Zar
5 Dire Avengers
5 Dire Avengers
5 Dire Avengers
5 Fire dragons, firepike (not sure this is necessary, may drop it)
8 Banshees
5 Scorps, claw
Wraithlord, sword, starcannon, 2 shuricats (this is my scorpion and has a chainsword modeled)
Wraithlord, brightlance, 2 flamers, sword (this is my dragon and will have an axe instead of sword)
Wraithlord, 2 AMLs, 2 shuricats (this will be a Dark Reaper and the AMLs will be modeled as a twin singular weapon)
Wraithseer, spear, shield (barebones will be my Banshee)
Wraithseer, shuricannon, spear, shield (this will be my Avenger).
2000pts on the nose.
haven't decided on powers for the wraithseers yet.
So do you think I chose the right 2 "aspects" for the wraithseers? I figured the banshee will have the ability to use smite as a pyschic scream.
I feel that not having actual Reapers in the list hurts a little, but I really need those vehicles (I think).
Thoughts on what I could do to tweak the list a little or just change outright?
Of course the other possible aspects are Hawks (making a winged wraithlord with scatterlaser/sword) and spider, although not sure what I'd use the deathspinner as a proxy for...maybe D-Cannon?
I intend to pay a CP to put the scorp lord in outflank obviously. Also not sure I need both Phoenix Lords. I have the new Jain Zar and not thrilled about taking an old Asurmen but feel he is a useful addition to the Avengers.
I just put this together today, so I haven't thought about how I'm going to make it all work together.
btw: I've been confusing the "pay I cp to put 4 units of DA in reserves" with the web way strat. couldn't make sense of it. Now it dawns upon me that you guys are simply talking about normal reserves! duh. thats a totally new thought for me with craftworlds. I routinely set up one unit in the web way but never in reserves. Is it worth it with the deployment restrictions and how do you guys normally use these units to best effect?
I've found DA shooting to be sub par and will nearly always place them in Strategic Reserve. There are some niche cases to start them on the board, but it based upon opposing army. They help score Engage on all Fronts and be a nuisance unit.
bullyboy wrote: OK, so I've had this idea in my head for awhile and now I'm going to push forward with it.
I'm in the process of modeling wraithlords in aspect shrine colours/loadouts and want to get them on the table. Of course, the rule of 3 means I have to at least take some as Wraithseers. Here is what I'm thinking currently..
Asurmen
Jain Zar
5 Dire Avengers
5 Dire Avengers
5 Dire Avengers
5 Fire dragons, firepike (not sure this is necessary, may drop it)
8 Banshees
5 Scorps, claw
Wraithlord, sword, starcannon, 2 shuricats (this is my scorpion and has a chainsword modeled)
Wraithlord, brightlance, 2 flamers, sword (this is my dragon and will have an axe instead of sword)
Wraithlord, 2 AMLs, 2 shuricats (this will be a Dark Reaper and the AMLs will be modeled as a twin singular weapon)
Wraithseer, spear, shield (barebones will be my Banshee)
Wraithseer, shuricannon, spear, shield (this will be my Avenger).
2000pts on the nose.
haven't decided on powers for the wraithseers yet.
So do you think I chose the right 2 "aspects" for the wraithseers? I figured the banshee will have the ability to use smite as a pyschic scream.
I feel that not having actual Reapers in the list hurts a little, but I really need those vehicles (I think).
Thoughts on what I could do to tweak the list a little or just change outright?
Of course the other possible aspects are Hawks (making a winged wraithlord with scatterlaser/sword) and spider, although not sure what I'd use the deathspinner as a proxy for...maybe D-Cannon?
I intend to pay a CP to put the scorp lord in outflank obviously. Also not sure I need both Phoenix Lords. I have the new Jain Zar and not thrilled about taking an old Asurmen but feel he is a useful addition to the Avengers.
I just put this together today, so I haven't thought about how I'm going to make it all work together.
sounds nothing short of amazing! thematic army with cool aesthetics. im not sure how dominant it will be in the meta but who cares about that : )
Automatically Appended Next Post: did anyone have comments on my point regarding masterful shots being a bit two sided? I fell it makes my opponent play in a way that is harder for me to control because I take away his motivation to go for certain positions on the battlefield.
I would still rather my opponent not get an extra save from cover if I can help it so that's why I use masterful shots for the spearhead of my list. If I have -4 on a bright lance or -3 on a starcannon, I don't want my opponent getting 5+ or 6+ saves when I could ignore cover and prevent a save outright.
Sure, your opponent is going to enjoy more freedom moving units and not caring about cover if your entire list is masterful shots, but the name of the game is terrain and objectives in 9th and you want to be using it anyway, cover save or not, so I have found that it doesn't overtly matter because if my opponent doesn't want to be seen, they'll be behind or in terrain anyway. Forcing decisions that an opponent might not be used to is good play in my opinion.
yeah, it is. I agree. Its just one of those buffs that if you run it it'll rarely come up as the opponent will just avoid cover. so it feels a bit shallow. it is good, though. no doubt.
Hey everyone! I use to play Eldar back in 7th edition and have decided to start using my collection again. What is the best way to start using the rules, just buying the codex or have there been any supplements I am unaware of? If I wanted to start a 500 point army would it consist of a farseer on bike, dire avengers and reapers?
luminate wrote: Hey everyone! I use to play Eldar back in 7th edition and have decided to start using my collection again. What is the best way to start using the rules, just buying the codex or have there been any supplements I am unaware of? If I wanted to start a 500 point army would it consist of a farseer on bike, dire avengers and reapers?
Thanks for your help!
armies that small are hard to get right, imo. but yeah, farseers are super good and DAs and reapers fit together quite well, I guess. Avengers sneak up (they can't run through enemy fire really) on an objective and the reapers clear the way from a good position in your backfield. sounds legit : )
Automatically Appended Next Post: 2 questions: in my understanding expert crafters trigger once per activation. you can preroll several times with a unit in a turn. Shooting, fight phase and if you shoot in your opponents movement phase with forewarned for example
But is this limited ti "once per phase" or would you get rerolls on the second shot in the same shooting phase with a fire prism that has remained stationary or moved half its movement?
second question: some of you mentioned that 3 prisms where probably one too many in todays meta. Sounds fair, but whats the reason for this shift? I feel that just a few months ago it was 3 or 0. any thoughts?
Regarding Fire Prisms, it really becomes the stratagem that is a bit of a trap, IMO. You get locked in to firing all three Fire Prisms which tended to be overkill (always some outlier exceptions). They feel over pointed, especially compared to a Lynx. As more 9th edition codexes are released, it may change, but that has been my take in the past.
Fire prism use can definitely fall into that stratagem trap if you're not careful. The three I brought against Death Guard ate through a good few blightlord termies but couldn't get the entire squad. They're decent against Lucius Skitarii blobs because of blast and the 1 damage isn't much of a hinderance considering the strength and AP of the shots. Compared to a Lynx, yeah, just not not worth the points unfortunately as I love them!
im taking this list to a game tomorrow and im having trouble on which secondaries to run. Normally id just take engage and incarious, and I might do so here too. Thing is that except for the lynx I lack the fast units I normally run for this sort of thing. Its a more compact shooting army this time so my question is if anything else would be better? Raise the banners maybe as I will be castling in my back field probably and screening for enemy deepstrikes while shooting as much as possible. then roll out and try to score primaries more offensively when the first wave of space wolves has been shot away.
Unless you alter your list slightly, Engage will be difficult.
If you took DA as units of 5 strong, they become Power Level 2. Then, you could place 4 squads in Strategic Reserve for 1 CP. It read like you are facing Space Wolves, so DA shooting is fairly poor and you can premeasure well enough to avoid turn 1 charges. They also can perform Retrieve Octarius Data coming from Strategic Reserve.
If you play carefully, To the Last has merit with War Walkers, Lynx, and a Fire Prism to keep alive.
You also have a lot of anti marine shooting. Don't throw away the Dire Avengers and try the secondary of destroying more than your opponent.
theres still options for tinkering with this build. I could go down to 5man avengers and free up 55 points.
Maybe another squad of DA as I feel they are important for screening and scoring.
Could also be a squad of deep striking scorpions to help with octarious data.
another option is to remove the lynx and buy the devastating 8-10 reapers and maybe upgrade a falcon to a serpent for them to be safe in. thing is, though, that I wanted something else for this list. also, with the spearhead I am pretty low on CP so between fire and fade every turn, maybe a few DA squads in reserve, forewarned and stuff like that I might run out very fast.
Reapers are solid until you face an opponent with no LOS shooting. This is why the Wave Serpent is important to consider. If you won't be at risk of this, then leaving the Serpent at home is perfectly fine.
actually, now that I´ve been looking at the fire prism profiles for a few days, they just make no sense. they are weak. straight up. even with the double tap. I mean, 2 shots at s12 -5 is cool, but d6 dam? just not good enough for the points. the dispersed is decent, I guess, but not anywhere near great.
I might get rid of the two and buy me another lynx plus something else.
They're not really weak, they're just average and situational units that are struggling in a mobile metagame. The points is a tad high but they're much more viable than previously this edition. Those lance shots should probably never be used as the Focused and Dispersed profiles are what sells it.
Another Lynx is fine but running two restricts your movement and the ability to hide them is pretty much null and void, so much so that if you don't get turn one, you're losing at least one of them.
Personally, a Wave Serpent and a full squad of Reapers is your best bet. What are you planning on using forewarned on? That's a situational stratagem to be worried about CP usage.
I'm seeing a lot of Lynx mentions lately, is this suddenly a good unit? I've not been keeping up to date on cwe stuff, as they hadn't had any updates in years (as far as I knew anyway)
Tyranid Horde wrote: They're not really weak, they're just average and situational units that are struggling in a mobile metagame. The points is a tad high but they're much more viable than previously this edition. Those lance shots should probably never be used as the Focused and Dispersed profiles are what sells it.
Another Lynx is fine but running two restricts your movement and the ability to hide them is pretty much null and void, so much so that if you don't get turn one, you're losing at least one of them.
Personally, a Wave Serpent and a full squad of Reapers is your best bet. What are you planning on using forewarned on? That's a situational stratagem to be worried about CP usage.
yeah, forewarned wasn't the best example. I always use it, though. Thats why the 3 war walkers are one unit. amazing utility, imo. 36 s4ap-1 shots vs da jump boys and and such assets. 6d6 vs most other things. vanguard vets and stuff like that can be decimated completely before a charge. 8 s8 ap-2 dam vs bigger stuff. the AMLs long range make them very strong backfielders, imo.
my point was just that with only 9 cp left and strats like seer council, linked fire etc to play preferably every turn id love to avoid spending one on fire and fade for the reapers. But its actually a b.s. point, as id probably end up using fire n fade every turn anyways with this list : ) its so good.
one more thing; my opponent tomorrow changed to death guard. and I think he is bringing mortarion. would you shoot lance or focused with the prisms against him? I mean, you wound on 3s anyways so even vs him, the lance would not be worth it, I feel. on the other hand.. d3 dam is super bad vs -1 damage..
agreed. I have never shot at him, honestly. I always avoid for 1-2 turns and then feed him something that will hopefully survive one round of fighting with him. then its usually over.
Have only faced him with custodes and marines but with elder, I feel I can take him out. doom with a plus 3 from council and focus will plus a reroll should be able to go through without being denied all too easy. then 36 inch jinx from the 2 man council (thanks for the advice) with a reroll. thats the tough one but at least he won't be able to deny mostly. and then just 4d3 s9 hits from the prisms with full rerolls, 6s9d3 hits from the lynx, 8 s8 shots from the falcons and 6 s8 shots from the walkers all into him. with a little luk my farseer kan even doom/execute him for a few wounds too. I feel its manageable at least with eldar. and it would be a fun thing to actually achieve. or maybe its just a waste still.
With Eldar against Death Guard, your movement will be king. Keep away for the most part as their auras can be a bit of a nightmare to deal with and your fire prisms' best target may be the blightlord termies, if you jinx and doom them, but even then, a really tough nut to crack and they're difficult to shift from the mid-board.
yeah, its brutal. Even spears just bounce off of them. I always beat them, though, with my best build. Our DG player is not super good with them and I just score secondaries, hold my back objectives and deny him key points in few but concentrated engagements. Movement, as you say, is key. Also, those mortars are nuts against us.
Thing is, though, this build I want to test (2 prism, 3 falcons, 1 lynx, 3 AML walkers, 4 psykers, 5x6 dire avengers) doesn't have the speed. It doesn't have the strong center piece either. like 9 spears or 10 wraith axes.
Instead I want to try to castle a bit. Shoot them off the objectives, screen cleverly. Chose banners, the kill more secondary and a third and try to see if I can win with a different build and a different strategy.
im still torn on whether to bring three prisms and cut the lynx (especially because I have to proxy the lynx) or go 2 lynx and cut the prisms. Ive never tried any of the two, actually.
Go after the indirect fire vehicles as a priority.
The challenge will be to ensure not allowing the primary objective score to get out of hand. Death Guard hold mid board very well. Keep that in mind to try and tie on primary. Then, outscore on secondary objectives. I build to score Engage and Retrieve Octarius Data and those get me 22 points pretty easy. Then, select a third to get you another 8-10 and a win is very achievable.
yeah, primaries will be so tough. you saw my first build. All dakka no mission or secondary focus. the exact opposite of normal Elder play. Now I added 2x5 scorpions with stalker to deep in and score linebreaker and maybe octarious too.
I want the third to be either grind them down or take no prisoners. I have never played those. not even with marines. its gonna be a whole new game, but I think the list has the oomph to clear him off the mid board. I dont know the mission yet, but if there are six objectives, raise the banner could still be viable. Does this look solid even without the lynx or should I try and fit it in again?
Thanks for all the chat, btw. Love to discuss stuff!
War Walkers [12 PL, 240pts]
. War Walker: Aeldari Missile Launcher, Aeldari Missile Launcher
. War Walker: Aeldari Missile Launcher, Aeldari Missile Launcher
. War Walker: Aeldari Missile Launcher, Aeldari Missile Launcher
++ Total: [109 PL, 9CP, 1,998pts] ++
3x6 avengers in the cars to go up and score primaries at some point or screen. what ever comes up. If he has a lot of indirect, the 2x5 avengers go in reserves (kind of making the scorpions obsolete but it will be ok, I hope.)
falcons, prisms and walkers shoot hard from the backline and try to stem the tide. I think it could work. One problem is: how do I get to those plague burst crawlers? if he runs three and stays out of sight that could end me. But he mostly gets gredy for those entropy shots and therefore moves them out to get LOS and then I will crush them one by one, I guess.
which prism profile do I use for plague marines, termies, poxies and vehicles respectively? are there any rule of thumb here? il enver get 2+ wounding either way except for lance fire so idk..
Any other tips are welcomed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW: its just so obvious that the right call is ALWAYS 10x reapers in a vectored serpent over any other heavy support option. they are simply amazing. that 3 dam is exactly what I want vs DG. But not today : ) actually, one of the reasons for this is that my little playgroup finds them very NPE to play against. they dont ask me to not run them, but I know they'll be happy to not see them today.
If they stay out of LOS, then they don't fire the sponsons. D6 indirect fire shots is acceptable in many cases, especially with as many small units you have.
Play the mission and avoid Mortarion as much as possible. Don't worry if the Scorpions never see combat as long as they are scoring points for you.
Hey guys, I started my Crusade league with my new Iyanden army (freshly painted this afternoon, because why not wait until the absolute last minute?). I don't know that I have much new information to share, but maybe more data is worthwhile for its own sake. It was a 25 PL combat patrol against a meka-ork list running 2 Deff Dreads, 3 Killa Kans, and a Defftrike. I'm only just now realizing that isn't a legal Combat Patrol list since it wasn't a patrol detachment, but it was definitely an honest mistake and he did start with 0 CP. Anyway, my list was:
Spoiler:
25 PL Iyanden Combat Patrol
Spiritseer, Empower/Enervate, Ghostwalk [Relic: Psytronome of Iyanden]
Wraithblades, Axes
5 Dire Avengers, Shredding Fire
5 Dire Avengers, Shredding Fire
Wraithseer, D-cannon, Protect/Jinx
Right off the bat I was nervous because I had exactly one anti-tank gun, and whose efficacy was still in question. I'd talk about the mission and strategy, but I tabled him at the top of turn 5 so it's more relevant to talk about the math. Firstly, the D-cannon was great with the Spiritseer around, but it was very swingy. In the early turns, it dumped 5 or 6 wounds on a target, but later on it rolled double 1s against the Kans (fortunately I was far ahead at that point). The fact that he could fire out of line of sight mitigated a lot of damage, too.
The heroes that game, however, were the Dire Avengers. Shredding Fire is just the way to go. Firstly, they are just consistent chip damage, dealing 2 wounds to most vehicles. Secondly, it was resilient chip damage. Bladestorm has a tiny bit higher output with a 5 models, but my lone remaining Exarch continued to put wounds on. The math works out that the Exarch is about half the squad's damage (except against hordes).
Lastly, the Wraithblades with Protect and Enervate were a solid anvil, you couldn't ask for better. On the other hand, Ghostwalk was a dud. I'm not sure if pushing them forward is even useful. I'm already planning to shoot and scoot to whittle the enemy down. They did a great job of breaking the enemy spearhead without moving much. After the Wraithblades were worn down, I wished I had Smite on the Spiritseer instead.
Oh, and the Psytronome is completely nuts. There's some subtlety, where you want to use Guided Wraithsight preemptively because it carries into your opponent's turn, and you can use Psytronome on their turn. Most units would have a hard time against buffed Wraithblades, so the threat of that insane counter-attack is a strong deterrent.
looks great. versatile, broad list that looks fun to play. If were talking optimal units I dont think the avatar is good enough for its price. it just sems to die before it can do much, Imo. And the melee guardians are too weak too, I think. I guess if its just for obsec bodies on an objective getting celestial shield or what ever, they are fine.
I used the avatar in a recent game against custodes and was very impressed.
at 200pts hes not a bad beat stick. Melta sword is pretty cool not gunna lie But to be honet, the main function though is his fearless bubble so that the guardians and warlocks can ignore morale.
Yes the stormies are there for ob sec bodies to advance up the board protecting characters/absorb fire power with celestial shield. I like the idea of using the heavy platform and fusion to shoot in late game taking advantage of expert crafters.
The idea is to have the guardian squads sit out the first couple rounds and use his aura to ignore morale
The idea is to put the fire dragons in the falcon and bomb it up the board straight towards the biggest threat unit.have the fire dragons do a suicide run and pull the falcon back.
We had a very dense terrain set up for us with very few clear firing lanes, so I was a bit fearful how my shooting army would cope. I was, however blessed with some good options for my flying tanks to take advantage of big obscuring terrain pieces, that my opponent would have to walk/drive around. Huge obscuring rock in the center, woods to the right at the right midfield objective, area of dense/difficult ground industrial complex (basically woods) to the left on the left midfield objektive. Containers, obscuring/breachable buildings all over the place. pretty symmetrical battlefield in all areas. we played scorched earth with six objectives.
my secondaries were octarious, linebreaker, no prisoners (so stupid. if I kill his entire army I get like 10 points haha) as I had planned on testing that dynamic out. normally my elder armies are not about killing really, so I thought that would be interesting.
He didn't bring morty but to my disgust he had 3 plague burst crawlers. He played a crazy 400point blob of 10 termies, 10 marines, 5 marines and 40 poxies. and 3 melee deathshroud dudes in teleportarium. He also had a psyker and all the buffing chars. 3 I think.
His secondaries were grind them down, to the last and the scorched earth specific which was a mistake, Imo, and made my go all out for his marines as they where the only units that could reasonably do the raze action. The to the last units where the termies, 10 marines and one plague burst.
we set up and were able to hide aprox. 80 percent of our armies. I went first, phantasmed the centerfielded 3x warwalkers and their psychic support to the right were I could get line of sight on the poxies going for the objektive closest to the one crawler I could get LOS on with prisms and 2 falcons. Sadly, and obviously, not the To the last one, but still pretty cool. I knew the 3 crawlers was the biggest threat as my army is a lot of armor. those entropy cannons wreck and the indirect is just devastating for eldar. with his flat 3 start they can open up my tanks easily too. my plan was too have the war walkers clear the poxies if the rest of my army could break the crawler. if not, the walkers would finish the crawler. The phantasm was a big decision as it put me on 7 cp right off the bat. way to tight for me playing eldar. It felt a bit greedy but i think it was the right thing to do.
I now had to make the grander plan. If we did nothing he would just win straight up. so I had to be proactive. problem is, that my army is not the usual super mobile eldar we-go-where-ever-we-please-all-the-time list. He had setup very defensively, to lure me out probably, but I felt he couldn't blow my to pieces if I could just smash one crawler per turn. I opted to go soft on the two center objectives with one falcon on each. 6 DA inside. I then put 5 da with shimmer on my weakest left backfield objective hoping he couldn't kick me of 3 places at once.
psychic. guide on war walkers, protect there too as they were frontline right next to the right falcon at that point. maybe should have put it on the falcon. with thise defensive buffs its all about making bad targets for your opponent and I felt the 6 missile launchers where more important. I dint dare go dep with my warlocks so one focus willed the doom seer and the other buffed the walkers saving throws too.
shooting: linked fire and 2 falcons barely managed to kill the crawler and the 36 starburst shots from the walkers killed the pox blob. so mission accomplished but I felt stretched out a bit too far.
DGs t1. he mvoes the terminators out in the center. I felt the had a long way to go and make any thing except bolter plings and suck up fire. so they didn't scare me. idk why he dint teleport them in. he then moved out all over the board to wards the objectives.
to crawlers on the left killed the left falcon and one DA died in the crash. he got a few mortar shots off on my back field avengers too but didn't clear either marker.
so my t2 I score 15. amazingly good. I try to spread my remaining backline stuff out to screen for the death shroud termies deeping in next turn. so I switch around on the backline to make everything work and thereby stretch out even thinner. only one prism on both back line objectives as the remaining 3 DA leave the marker to screen for deep. the right side is pretty strong with me dominating that midfield with walkers, all the psykers, 2 falcons. the crawler there is dead and his ten marines are coming up to challenge me with his termies as a potential second wave. I go 2 squads of scorpions in his right side back field to do my second octarious and score 4 for linebreaker.
the psychic phase goes bonkers. my doom seer goes doom on the marines and then perils and super smites them, then masterful for executioner. I end up putting 9 mw on that unit and suddenly the doom is overkill.
I focus all my left side fire on the to the last crawler sticking out its head on the left after killing my falcon there. love how the linked fire offers flexibility. then all my other fire on the marines on the right. 5 more marines and a lot of poxies will overrun the left but I have let it go.
the linked fire is simply not enough to kill a crawler. I end up tapping just 4 w. not good. but on the right my walkers and falcons make short work of the last marines. huge. they were a to the last unit and obsec for the objective we are fighting for there. their quick demise lets me put a lot of fire into the term blob and 3 buffing chars coming forward.
his turn 2 proves I strong comeback is possible with DG always. he slaughters all the remaining DA on the left, takes over the mid objective there and kills the prism holding my back objective. on the right he teleports in the flamer dude and deathshoruds in. he flames the one squad of scorpions and charge it. one exarch survives miraculously. his terminators kill a war walker and miss their charge. he charges one of the falcons with shrouds but misses. he scores grind and my turn.
i kind of stall this turn. my assets a getting fewer. i fly down a falcon to his end zone and screen it from charges with the remaining scorpions. plan is to get behind enemy lines points and deliver DA next turn. I move the remaining falcon back to protect the right midfield objective without disembarking the DA.
so everything into the ten termies. with psychics and shooting I kill a few. The left flank collapses. but as my last effort I kill the five marines that were on their way down too raze my left backline objective. now now unit overthrew can do that and im sitting hard on the right side one. Thats big. scor line breaker
his turn he shoots another prism and moves on to take my left back field objective. on the right he kills the scorps and gets his termie charges on the falcon. the other falcon gets charged by the flamer dude and barely survives. or maybe that was on my last turn. problem is that NONE of his three chars get their charges, so they are left alone as their terminator friends charge away. he scores grind again.
At this point it felt very swingy. I was leading on points but was really struggling to make it all come together. on my t4 I close the noose, though, as everything just pans out my way. Fall back with the falcon to have the termies just stand there. all my DA come out and surround them. I kill 2 with psychics and they get jinxed and doomed. everything moves up to shoot. even the psykers. DA end up saving the day once again in the late game. I just love 6mans. 14 shots with exploding sixes. times 2. with doom and jinx they just chew through that huge blob bit by bit. between than and all the jet bikes and one of the war walkers I opt to fre one crack missile at the psyker. it goes through and a lucky 6 kills him. no more denies no more terminators.
so we end the game here.
we count the points and t5 scoring and its something like 83-61 and what a cool game it was. no prisoners must be the worst secondary in the game. I kill EVERY thing but 2 tanks and some poxies and get 9 points? come on. I made a few mistakes along the way spend cp on -1 start two times and had the target die anyways without extra strain on my opponents shooting. nah, actually on the first prism it forced him to use an entropy canon from the other crawler, so I guess that was ok. I forgot forewarned when his termies came in even though I had set that up all game long. stupid. the takeaway for me is that 9 CP is just not enough for me with eldar. I ran out so fast
DA and psykers where my mvps. Prisms are fun but it love to see them vs an arme that doesn't outer the d3dam profile completely. Falcons went down easily but in a way they carried the whole game for me. hard to explain. They just simply do it all. they deliver troops. they bait, they put out serious damage. they were engaged in every deciding aspect of the game. I think im bringing 4 next Time ; )
thanks for the help on developing a somewhat different list.
Thanks for sharing. Glad to read it worked out well for you.
How did AML armed War Walkers work out? I've been a bit skeptical of AML (on paper), but have not actually tried them. I tend to use Star Cannons and an occasional Brightlance (Not a huge fan of the BL, however). You had the perfect weapon to face Pox Walkers, but how useful were they when firing at Terminators or vehicles?
Sarigar wrote: Thanks for sharing. Glad to read it worked out well for you.
How did AML armed War Walkers work out? I've been a bit skeptical of AML (on paper), but have not actually tried them. I tend to use Star Cannons and an occasional Brightlance (Not a huge fan of the BL, however). You had the perfect weapon to face Pox Walkers, but how useful were they when firing at Terminators or vehicles?
i too was skeptical towards the AML at first. at first I only ran them on falcons or single warwalkers and found them underwhelming. the 1d6 shots on the frag profile was to dicey and the -2 ap on the krak profile was too weak. But when you have 6 of them on the same unit its just a whole different story. the-2 and masterful is usually enough to take terminators and most vehicles to 5+ with is often their ++save. add in jinx and they almost feel like ´bright lances. I shot at death shrouds with them here and it went decent. thing is, the star burst is the better profile against anything less than t8. especially with masterful shots. because of the -1 ap They just shred stuff apart. if you can put jinx out, have doom in the mix and guide the squad maybe (not super important) watch terminators, bikes, vehicles go down with ease. anything with more than 6 models in it is in trouble and anything with 10+ models is completely screwed. even vs units that dont trigger blast were talking 6d6 shots. also, if you need the walkers to hold a position, they can really do it. protect on them for t5 6w 3+/4++ and fortune for the 5+++ on top. Thats so good. its one if the few eldar units that can actually get lots of shots. Its almost like a medium sized guardian bomb every turn if you do it right/get lucky : )
and they wreck with forewarned and similar ekstra activations.
Sounded like a good game Scoundrel, you sound like you managed to play around their lack of speed and went for the stuff that hurt. I always find PBCs to be a nuisance with their flat three and additional splash damage. After my tournament I may return to Falcons and see how they do. I fear in my meta there is just too much out there to reliably kill one a turn even with spirit stones.
Just an FYI, you cannot protect War Walkers as Protect/Jinx specifies Infantry and Bikers only, so unfortunately no fun with vehicles, as a trio of vehicles touting a 4++ would be too good.
Sarigar wrote: Thanks for sharing. Glad to read it worked out well for you.
How did AML armed War Walkers work out? I've been a bit skeptical of AML (on paper), but have not actually tried them. I tend to use Star Cannons and an occasional Brightlance (Not a huge fan of the BL, however). You had the perfect weapon to face Pox Walkers, but how useful were they when firing at Terminators or vehicles?
I've tried AML in past games on the Walkers, and while they do have a good dual purpose, the -2AP is a big let down, even with Jinx and Masterful shots. Since replacing the AML with BLs, I am more reliably taking things like heavy infantry and tanks without the need for additional support. So you lose the crowd control but gain the opportunity to strip armour saves. The D6 is still swingy though, and I hope that changes with the new codex.
Played a game last week against Dark Eldar for the first time in 9th, and while trading early on went well, my opponent's dice were with him, nailing many 5++ and 6++ saves on his raiders and other units which basically meant my turn one was pointless and it negated my first turn advantage. He Vect'd fire and fade which strapped me for CP and by the end of T2, I was down to nothing. Had a small argument when I caught my opponent over-moving his minis and over-measuring his ranges, so the game was tense from there on out having to basically be over his shoulder in case of further gak. I suppose if I rolled a bit more on the average, I would have stood a better chance, but the toughness of his troops and the speed of others made it a very difficult game and I conceded on turn 3.
For my latest list and the one I have submitted for the tournament at the end of the week, I have replaced the D-Cannon Support platform and vectored engines on one Wave Serpent with a squad of Banshees and a starcannon on the Vyper. Hopefully with Hunters of Ancient Relics, the banshees have a good chance of going through T3 infantry and/or tying up some vehicles.
oh, sorry. Protect won't work on the walkers. My bad. But fortune will, right? it just says asuryani unit.
im not sure id ever take bright lances over AML any more. when they get d3+3 its a nother case. Right now they are just not good utility imo. Going into 3+ saves (most armies tend to have that) you make it 5s and vs a lot of tough targets, witch are the ones you use this weapons on mostly, you'll force them to hit their invulnerable saves. so, while -3 or 4 is obviously better, the d6 s4 -1 shots from the AML as an option makes the combined package just too good to pass on imo. Star canons are cool, but that d3 dam is just so horrendously bad vs. a lot of stuff these days.
Fortune works on War Walkers; quite well in a unit of three, actually.
Frankly, the main reason I've not dropped the few Brightlances in my army is simply me being lazy and not magnetizing and painting more weapon options.
I played a game yesterday against Death Guard where I had a unit of two War Walkers, each with a Star Cannon and Brightlance. From turns 2,3,4, and 5, I rolled a 4 for damage once. Everything else was less. Against Death Guard and the -1 damage, this again proved to me I need to swap out the Brightlances.
I still run my walkers with shuricannons, their access to battle focus makes them really versatile and them being cheap allows me to throw them into the grinder if necessary without too much regret. Their output is still reasonable and they don't care for saves, t5 or reduced damage anyways.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: I still run my walkers with shuricannons, their access to battle focus makes them really versatile and them being cheap allows me to throw them into the grinder if necessary without too much regret. Their output is still reasonable and they don't care for saves, t5 or reduced damage anyways.
yeah, I went that way with vipers too recently. could see that on walkers also. problem is that those 36 s4 -1 shots are just too good to say no to, Imo. so much horde control, range control, a huge anti deep strike tool with forewarned and decent anti tank. They are just always exactly what I need if I dont have them. they are probably a bit too expensive though. I must say, that if I see threats forming to taking them out I pop fortune on them and get -1 cover on them. seeing my opponent put heavy fire into t5 5++ 5+++ at minus - to hit is ok, imo.
Are folks facing more armies with light infantry? This may be the issue I am (not) seeing. I've not been to a tourney in about 2 months and the local player base is not playing with lots of light infantry. I see one Sisters army, but not loaded with basic infantry and no infantry based AdMech (likely still does not have all those built and painted).
I'm attending a tourney the following weekend and am debating adding AML to my War Walkers to give it a try. I see a lot of value if facing new Orks, Admech, Admech, Sisters, or even Drukhari. I think some of my builds are getting dated as I've not played against much of the newer armies.
Yeah it’s deffinetely a meta choice. So good vs t3 infantry. Admech, sisters. Anything t3 but marines too. Used to be good vs orks too nut at t5 idk. Havent tried yet. But even vs toucher stuff idk whats better than those starshots. I mean, the bl is just too sketchy and while the starcannon is great in many ways, i cant live with d3 Dam these days.
I've tweaked one of my more commonly used builds to incorporate the War Walkers. I've had other input to swap the War Walkers for Spectres: which is the exact unit I dropped to add the War Walkers, haha haha.
that list looks amazing. lots of flat 3 dam. actually, im not sure the walkers are BETTER than 10 spectres per se. those are really, really good too. Very flimsy but Amazing damage. they can basically drop in and remove a target too, so its all about what you think the meta will be.
The challenge I found using Spectres is they really need Fire and Fade, which is generally reserved for the Reapers. Both units, if left available, become a top priority for opponents.
I can take 9 Spectres for 234 points: I have 8 painted and painting one more would not be difficult to be ready by next weekend.
Currently building my first box of new banshees. Does anyone have any recommendations for equipping the exarch? I'm considering just using the power sword option but I do like the executioner.
I usually go executioner but it doesn't really matter. they shouldn't target anything bigger than intercessors. they can actually chop those up pretty good.
I used to run 10 banshees a lot. Not the last couple of months, though. with hunters its 31 attacks. thats 10ish wounds on interceptors that need sixes for saves and can't fire overwatch. so 4-5 dead, more with rerolls and maybe you kill yet another before that with the pistols. They hit you back at minus 1 so maybe lets say 5 survive thats 15 attacks back. 8 hit, 5 wounds, you make 2 saves, 3 die and then you' probably kill them in your turn between shooting and fighting. They are much better vs t3 infantry like sisters or admech. plus they look cool : ) probably still the beast reason to take them.
they break apart to indirect fire and you have to do everything perfect with them to get them into combat. if they get caught in enemy fire of any kind they just die in my experience.
but I do love them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: im going through craft world trials to see if anything other than the usual suspects could be worth it. what about that one that gives a melee weapon +1 dam on 6s to wound? sounds pretty good if you can get a lot of attacks. were not too good at that tough. has anybody tried the global 6++. is it any good?
also, the avatar.. never tried him. looks so bad. anyone used him recently? would love to give the model a spin.
Cheers scoundrel. I'm going to run 5 in a serpent with 5 sheild, glaive and avenging DA's and head towards some objectives with my wraithblades. Running crafters and hunters. I live in a SM world so thanks for the math.
I've used the following traits over the last few months: Savage Blades, Wrath of Dead, and Hunters of Ancient Relics. All of these were utilizsed in an assault based detachment. Of those, Hunters of Ancient Relics is the primary selection, then combined with one other depending on build and preference.
I've used the Avatar recently, but the army required a very different playstyle. The core of the build had 2 x 10 Wraithblades, 3 Wraithseers, the Avatar. Avatar and Wraithblades are most expensive units.
I'd choose To The Last, Retreive Octarius Data, and one other. I'd literally hide the Avatar and place the Wraithblades on two objectives. I'd generally score 15, 12, and try for 10 on respective secondaries and 40-45 on primary, except in missions that required hold two, hold more. There are three of those missions in the GT Missions book. In nearly every game, the Avatar did not get into assault, but his aura for fearless and reroll charges were very important. This list also requires a reasonable level of LOS blocking terrain.
I tend to run Spears in a unit of five with a Star Lance + Skilled Rider exarch. They're normally solid vs marines and great for hunting ObSec units with the shuriken catapults. I usually have them in a detachment with Hunters of Ancient Relics for charging said units down with extra attacks and the rerolls from expert crafters.
They're a good unit for trading and with quicken you can happily tag tanks on turn one and surround them/point them with the size of the unit.
They have bad matchups sometimes but they're versatile and if they have no good targets initially, they have the speed to net points for secondaries.
I had my tournament at the weekend (first one in years) and ended up finishing 2-3 and 47th out of 80 players. I played against Death Guard, Orks, Dark Angels, Daemons and Guard. The terrain was okay, it was a bit hit and miss and the games against Orks and DA were on the same table, which made for some cagey gameplay I wasn't used to.
First time playing Orks, DA and Daemons so was a bit of a learning curve and I'd say with more practise and more knowledge on Orks and Daemons especially, I'd have made those games a good bit closer. That being said, those were matchups I had no right winning with my list as the Ork kill bosses ripped through my units and the Daemons list was Belakor, LoC and 3x Exalted Keepers. The loss to DA was frustrating as it was game 3 and I was tired, so I lost the game by 9 points, something that could have been avoided if I had not made some simple mistakes.
Did come home with Best Painted Unit of the day though, so a small victory for the Craftworlds!
Finished a local small one day event. It had an interesting mix of armies, but no Drukhari or Adeptus Sororitas. There was one AdMech army, but that player lost his first game.
Game 1 vs Goff Orks, Mission 11. To be fair, my opponent is a long time Ork player, but is still learning the new Ork Codex. With that, I think he made some mis-plays during the game. Highlights were me getting a turn 1 charge (I went second) with 10 Wraithblades into 15 Kommandos, wiping them. Then, Ghaz and Beast Snagga Boyz jumped in on turn 2. With Protect and Fortune cast, the Wraithblades had one model left by the end of the game. But, it stopped Ghazkull from doing anything else. The rest was me playing objectives and shooting Ork units off the table. Win with 91 points.
Game 2 vs Space Wolves/Castelan Knight, Mission 12. The Castelan Knight was over 600 points. I got first turn and pondered if I could destroy the Knight on turn 1. I gambled and decided I could not and went after the Space Wolves to pull him off objectives and prevent him fromm maxing out Retrieve Octarius Data. The plan worked and by the end, the Knight and 2 Bladeguard were left on the table. I lost my last Wraithblade on the bottom of turn 5, which was a To The Last unit. Win with 73 points.
Game 3 vs Death Guard, Mission 13. This was against my buddy whom I regularly face. I've played 6+ games against his Death Guard and won once. Once again, history repeated itself. This was a twofold issue. (1) I tendmto struggle to score primary points on hold 2 objective missions, and (2), I have been unable to stop,this Death Guard from scoring. In the end, I scored 15 primary points and 37 secondaries (and 10 for painted). I lost 63-91.
By the end, Death Guard took first, followed by Orks (different army than my round 1), and I took third. The new Thousand Sons took fourth.
All in all, 3 fun games. As more and more codexes get released, I definitely am feeling the like games are getting more and more difficult. The biggest challenge I am facing are units with -1 damage abilities. Isolated in a few units, such as Marine Dreadnoghts, it is manageable. However, in a Death Guard army with this ability across most of the army almost large amounts of the units with models having 3+ wounds each, my army loses a lot of efficiency in removing units.
Looked like you had a good weekend, and with an interesting list. I see a lot of discussion regarding bringing units with weapons that don't need LoS and was wondering if this was an issue with your games? Being able to ping a dark reaper exarch at some poxwalkers or similar is always a nice thing to have but you do have some fast units to draw LoS on your opponent.
Were you satisfied with the AML on the walkers and the shredding fire exarchs? I am swapping out the BLs on my walkers back to AMLs to see if I can manage any blobs of infantry in my coming games.
I'm participating in a league over the coming weeks and I have DG, CSM (Slaanesh) and the new TSons in my group so keen to see how I fare with more experience against Death Guard. Spamming D1 shots seems to be the way to go but it is counter to what the meta needs right now and the best way to deal with them is to use speed and deny primaries over trying to get them yourself.
I played a few practice games with non LOS shooting. Ultimately, I was unimpressed and removed them altogether. Against Death Guard, the obvious target is Pox Walkers in an attempt to prevent Spread the Sickness secondary. However, Reaper Tempest Launchers would generally be out of range on turn 1 and Shadow Weavers damage output was too minimal. YMMV.
AML on War Walkers. To be honest, I'm on the fence.
1. One of my three 'To the Last' units. I lost the unit in one game, but I was facing a Castellan Knight which excels at high levels of damage.
2. Range. I like having some standoff shooting.
3. Lots of shots. Round 1 was against Orks with a few large squads. I thought 36 shots would be great, but S4 vs T5 left me unimpressed.
4. S8 shooting. This was solid, but the D6 damage did swing out of favor in my third game. I really don't like this type of damage.
I've got an idea about getting to things out of LOS. I'm dropping the Hornets and putting in a Farseer Skyrunner with Doom, Executioner, Smite and Singing Spear. He will be placed in reserve via Webway Gate. I will also place the Star Cannon equipped War Walkers in reserve as they can come on any board edge. I suspect this will challenge opponents.
Good luck in the league and let us know how things are playing out.
If I drop my Dark Reapers, I may actually put another unit in the Wave Serpent, haha. Thanks for the trick. I may give it a shot some time in the future.
If you wanna blast hordes off the table. Shadow specters are the best unit. They move fast or can drop in from deep strike. Can murder hordes on dispersed firing mode or can murder 2 and 3 wound targets with focused mode
warpedpig wrote: If you wanna blast hordes off the table. Shadow specters are the best unit. They move fast or can drop in from deep strike. Can murder hordes on dispersed firing mode or can murder 2 and 3 wound targets with focused mode
I've got them. I found two challenges running them.
1. It is very difficult to run both a large Reaper unit and Spectre unit. Fire and Fade is extremely important. Both units are priority targets for my opponents and I need to ensure return fire is very minimal. We use terrain sufficient that I have the ability to keep a Wave Serpent out of LOS from most shooting. I generally have Reapers firing for 5 turns at near or full strength. This rarely, if ever, occurred for me with Spectres.
2. Non LOS shooting can wreck Spectres as opposed to Reapers who Fire and Fade into a Wave Serpent. Of late, I've faced a bit more than usual non LOS shooting which was another reason for me to put the Spectres away (for now).
They are not a bad unit at all, but I've run into a few challenges in games which has led me to swap them out for War Walkers.
The one thing I've done this edition is to add more units to the collection and play a lot of combinations. As opposing armies shift, I've had the ability to tweak my list accordingly. Spectres had their moment for a few months and I think my local meta has shifted a bit, forcing me to shift as well. I'm sure the meta for me will shift again and Spectres will make their return. (I hope so as I own 30,hahaha).
I have a question on Howling Banshees. I was going to necro an old thread specifically about them, but dakka says that's in poor form. So here I am.
I just got two boxes of five, and I plan to build them as separate squads. If the need arises, I can always run them as a single 9 model unit, but having two Exarchs keeps the flexibility of two squads.
As such, my question is about the general consensus regarding load-outs. Is it just executioner and forget the rest? I find the prospect of the triskele interesting, but it seems those aren't looked upon favorably.
Executioner is the go to as it deals some higher strength and extra damage hits that you can use rerolls on for extra damage. Mirrorswords don't benefit from the extra strength power weapons get and to be honest I've not looked at the triskele properly. Make two exarchs and that'll give you flexibility. I use a unit of 5 in my list but I find they don't do very much and haven't been able to use them effectively as I've got no delivery for them, which they surely need.
I'm bringing a different list to a practise game and thought I'd try out a variation on Scoundrel's falcon gun boat list. It's also mildly inspired by my opponents FSE shere he uses Breachers in Devilfish and that makes for sticky units on objectives.
I packed a bunch of psychic powers into this list as I feel that I need more buffs to keep my army at least on an even footing with 9th armies and children of prophecy can help reduce the need for CP rerolls if my psychic powers don't go off and makes smites more reliable if I face an army where mortals are an effective means of damage.
I'm running mobile fighters as a bit of a semi-serious joke as it can allow me to drop guide on the Farseer and use it more offensively. Dark Reapers can become more consistent with rerolling 1s and an extra reroll of the 2 with expert crafters. It also benefits the Dire Avengers which is a bonus.
Not sure about the Wraithseer yet, I could throw in a night spinner for ignoring LoS but don't have a turret ready for that yet.
The list gives up plenty of secondary options in abhor the witch and bring it down. Can use To The Last, ROD and Engage as secondaries but would mean playing conservatively with my blades, wraithseer and the Reapers just do their thing.
Thoughts?
Sarigar wrote: Finished a local small one day event. It had an interesting mix of armies, but no Drukhari or Adeptus Sororitas. There was one AdMech army, but that player lost his first game.
Game 1 vs Goff Orks, Mission 11. To be fair, my opponent is a long time Ork player, but is still learning the new Ork Codex. With that, I think he made some mis-plays during the game. Highlights were me getting a turn 1 charge (I went second) with 10 Wraithblades into 15 Kommandos, wiping them. Then, Ghaz and Beast Snagga Boyz jumped in on turn 2. With Protect and Fortune cast, the Wraithblades had one model left by the end of the game. But, it stopped Ghazkull from doing anything else. The rest was me playing objectives and shooting Ork units off the table. Win with 91 points.
Game 2 vs Space Wolves/Castelan Knight, Mission 12. The Castelan Knight was over 600 points. I got first turn and pondered if I could destroy the Knight on turn 1. I gambled and decided I could not and went after the Space Wolves to pull him off objectives and prevent him fromm maxing out Retrieve Octarius Data. The plan worked and by the end, the Knight and 2 Bladeguard were left on the table. I lost my last Wraithblade on the bottom of turn 5, which was a To The Last unit. Win with 73 points.
Game 3 vs Death Guard, Mission 13. This was against my buddy whom I regularly face. I've played 6+ games against his Death Guard and won once. Once again, history repeated itself. This was a twofold issue. (1) I tendmto struggle to score primary points on hold 2 objective missions, and (2), I have been unable to stop,this Death Guard from scoring. In the end, I scored 15 primary points and 37 secondaries (and 10 for painted). I lost 63-91.
By the end, Death Guard took first, followed by Orks (different army than my round 1), and I took third. The new Thousand Sons took fourth.
All in all, 3 fun games. As more and more codexes get released, I definitely am feeling the like games are getting more and more difficult. The biggest challenge I am facing are units with -1 damage abilities. Isolated in a few units, such as Marine Dreadnoghts, it is manageable. However, in a Death Guard army with this ability across most of the army almost large amounts of the units with models having 3+ wounds each, my army loses a lot of efficiency in removing units.
love this. cool breakdown. I have very similar thoughts when playing, I feel. I would not have gone for that knight either. Actually, your chain of thought there makes me think of your DG problem. I play a lot against them and I struggle but I usually win that matchup. Our DG player is not a top player, but he is decent and he knows the book well. I feel focusing on removing their plague burst crawler is so key. my opponent is starting to pox screen them like crazy so I often can't get to them. having them around for 4-5 turns is devastating. but the cool thing is than now, because of this local meta development, he has fewer poxies up the board which means im having a bit less stress on objectives.
If there is no crawlers or you get them/it early its all about butchering their marines, imo. they are obsec, are tough and have decent (for dg) mobility. I always feel that once they are gone, it gets easier. the 6xAML s4 profile on the walkers are brilliant for clearing poxies. How did they perform for you?
Thing is, if you kill the crawlers and maybe myphitics they really can't crack your armor outside of melee so in my experience you can then jet around the table scoring, baiting and controlling the board. Its I rough matchup, though. oh, and then there is Morty. He is killable with the right plan and dice but I usually try to make him busy somewhere unimportant instead. Sometimes that goes wrong and then you can find yourself in real trouble real quick.
Thank you. I enjoy sharing ideas and learning new ideas with Craftworld armies.
I've got two local Death Guard opponents; one whom I win every game and the other whom I've not yet beaten (he has other armies in which I've won games against).
In all fairness, I get outplayed against the one opponent. I score quite well, but he simply scores more and I've yet to find ways to mitigate his scoring. Spread the Sickness and the new hold 3 objective secondary generally earn him 12+ points each. The third secondary objective can be a bit hit or miss. The army's durability makes it exceptionally difficult to remove units from objectives. So, I am still developing more strategies.
One Death Guard player runs three Plagueburst Crawlers, but I tend to outplay him. The other runs two. LOS plays a big part on how much I will dedicate to destroying them. They do a fair bit of damage, but I'm finding it can be a bit of a trap targeting them. Death Guard are a slowish moving army and if I ignore the infantry too long, they get to multiple onjectives and I can't effectively root those models out. Again, still learning various strategies after @ 12 games against them.
The AML on the War Walkers are ok, but the S4 setting has not been quite as good as I had hoped. The shooting requires assistance from Doom, Runes of the Farseer and/or Guide. I really thought 36 shots at 20 Pox Walkers would inflict more damage; it hasn't and then Pox Walkers can be brought back. Killing 10 Pox Walkers with 6 AML is not a sure thing, surprisingly. The S8 version, combined with Jinx, is quite useful. I tend to get better results when firing the S8 mode. I've managed to destroy a Plagueburst Crawler from one volley of War Walker armed with AMLs.
The 2 strong Warlock Conclave has been extremely useful. I've played them in most of my games for @ 1 year now. Seer Council stratagem in turns 1 and 2 are clutch. Concordance of Power is exceptionally important and becomes game changing. 2 models are only 80 points and easy to keep out of LOS. I build my Farseer and Warlock Conclave to hang in the backfield out of LOS to cast items such as Fortune, Jinx/Protect, and Guide. I've lately added a Farseer Skyrunner with Doom, Smite, and Executioner, which has been pretty good.
Sarigar wrote: Thank you. I enjoy sharing ideas and learning new ideas with Craftworld armies.
I've got two local Death Guard opponents; one whom I win every game and the other whom I've not yet beaten (he has other armies in which I've won games against).
In all fairness, I get outplayed against the one opponent. I score quite well, but he simply scores more and I've yet to find ways to mitigate his scoring. Spread the Sickness and the new hold 3 objective secondary generally earn him 12+ points each. The third secondary objective can be a bit hit or miss. The army's durability makes it exceptionally difficult to remove units from objectives. So, I am still developing more strategies.
One Death Guard player runs three Plagueburst Crawlers, but I tend to outplay him. The other runs two. LOS plays a big part on how much I will dedicate to destroying them. They do a fair bit of damage, but I'm finding it can be a bit of a trap targeting them. Death Guard are a slowish moving army and if I ignore the infantry too long, they get to multiple onjectives and I can't effectively root those models out. Again, still learning various strategies after @ 12 games against them.
The AML on the War Walkers are ok, but the S4 setting has not been quite as good as I had hoped. The shooting requires assistance from Doom, Runes of the Farseer and/or Guide. I really thought 36 shots at 20 Pox Walkers would inflict more damage; it hasn't and then Pox Walkers can be brought back. Killing 10 Pox Walkers with 6 AML is not a sure thing, surprisingly. The S8 version, combined with Jinx, is quite useful. I tend to get better results when firing the S8 mode. I've managed to destroy a Plagueburst Crawler from one volley of War Walker armed with AMLs.
The 2 strong Warlock Conclave has been extremely useful. I've played them in most of my games for @ 1 year now. Seer Council stratagem in turns 1 and 2 are clutch. Concordance of Power is exceptionally important and becomes game changing. 2 models are only 80 points and easy to keep out of LOS. I build my Farseer and Warlock Conclave to hang in the backfield out of LOS to cast items such as Fortune, Jinx/Protect, and Guide. I've lately added a Farseer Skyrunner with Doom, Smite, and Executioner, which has been pretty good.
yup. were at the almost exact same spot with list development for 9th, it seems : ) I've gone up to four psykers almost always recently. if I run two detachments I always do it and often I go for 2 detachments because of that. Still debating if its the right route to go in the long run, but it just seems strongest. two farseers is so nice. I had a crazy turn with super smite, smite, executuioner vs dg that cleared like 5-6 plague marines. It can spike, but they are pricey and still pretty frail. if a screen drops they just die. For one thing 4 psykers, makes the sisters matchup better. Will deffineltely swop one warlock sky runner for the 2elf conclave and try it out.
I also think crawlers can be dangerous to sink shots into. and as said, now our little meta has changed so he defends then better. then I can do other stuff. how does he get to the objectives early? you should have those vs DG, id say. first turns should be like 15-10-10 in hold one/more missions preferably. sometimes more if you go for raise banners. Those first 2-3 turns are your time time shine, Imo. after that, DG is flooding objects wit rough staying power.
DG are so amazingly slow. they can send spawns up for you to kill or they can do early myphitics. thats basically it. myphitics are the worst. they are hard to kill and you have to kill them. just everything into them t1 if they are one unit. and if they are several units you'll have to take out one or two fast. that usually means his crawlers are free to kick ass from the back field. I think that setup is the worst DG scenario for me. but still, thats one objective they challenge. you hopefully have wave serpents and DA on 3+ : )
how exactly do you play the 2man warlock conclave? I mean, if opponent runs any indirect, they just die t1, right?
one more thing: I see 3x5 rangers from time to time in stead of dire avengers. how is his ever a good choice? what do they do? I thought they could forward deploy. they can't. they dont even have a innate -1 to hit. If they could all pop the alaitoc strat I guess they could hold an objective but in their current orm I just dont see them ever doing anything. and that 5+ save at 13 points makes avengers a 100 percent auto buy for me. or am I missing something?
Regarding your 2 man conclave question, you keep them in wave serpents to keep them alive on turn one, and you can also use your opponent's lack of knowledge on whether it is a targetable unit or not. Even one turn getting a 36 inch Jinx off is a major boost.
Rangers have appear unbidden, which gives them deepstrike, great for ROD and they get +2 to their covers so they're sitting on a 3+ save which isn't awful. I ran one squad in the list I posted above, and they performed as expected, even dishing a couple of mortals out which was welcome.
The DG matchup is hard, I lost 92-70 in my last game and I don't think there was much I could do. The AML I brought on my war walkers didn't do much against poxwalkers, as Sarigar has also experienced. I am tempted to switch back to my BLs purely for the AP as they're not as catch all as I'd hoped.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Regarding your 2 man conclave question, you keep them in wave serpents to keep them alive on turn one, and you can also use your opponent's lack of knowledge on whether it is a targetable unit or not. Even one turn getting a 36 inch Jinx off is a major boost.
Rangers have appear unbidden, which gives them deepstrike, great for ROD and they get +2 to their covers so they're sitting on a 3+ save which isn't awful. I ran one squad in the list I posted above, and they performed as expected, even dishing a couple of mortals out which was welcome.
The DG matchup is hard, I lost 92-70 in my last game and I don't think there was much I could do. The AML I brought on my war walkers didn't do much against poxwalkers, as Sarigar has also experienced. I am tempted to switch back to my BLs purely for the AP as they're not as catch all as I'd hoped.
Im sorry the AMLs aren't working for you guys. they are seriously cutting apart sisters, poxies and even marines for me. 36 s4 -1 shots with buffs and masterful just works so well for crowd control in my games. but yeah, maybe they are too expensive in the long run. its almost 300 points after all.
I can see how rangers could potentially be ok rodders. but for that I just go 5xscorpoins. Same price but with stalker they are 2+ -1 to hit. I think thats the best unit to do it with.
The locals I face are all aware that the Conclave does not have the Character keyword: we all game together enough and I've been using them for the past year. Out of all my opponent's, there are only two players who actively try to remove the Conclave with indirect fire. Other players either don't have indirect fire or do not want to use it on an 80 point unit. In tournament games, I leave it up to my opponent to review my list and developed their own strategy and answer any questions they have.
Tyranids Horde is exactly right. I place the Conclave in the Wave Serpent along with the 10 Dark Reapers. Then, the Wave Serpent is placed out of LOS.
I played against the new Orks and thought the AML would cut through them. T5 made a big difference. My local opponents have dropped the Pox Walkers to 10 models per squad, reducing the AML effectiveness.
The AML at S8 and D6 damage is where I am getting better utility. I recently one shot a Pagueburst Crawler with 3 War Walkers with AML (and Jinx). The AP2 is significant, and Jinx is really the only item that has me wanting to try them a few more games.
I read online about Rangers being utilized. If it fits a player's strategy, it seems to work. I personally don't use them, but I've also developed my own preferences with ROD and Engage on all Fronts, so I do not think they are required.
I can definitely see AMLs being much more catch-all and I've had a couple of crusade games against sisters where they've been excellent so I'm keeping them in my list for now.
Seeing the discussion about farseers, I've tweaked my comp list (different from the one above) a little bit to include a doom/executioner seer as I found the single guide/doom seer wasn't quite enough and forced weird interactions to ensure I'm in range for various buffs and debuffs. It also made the seer council strat less used and that's sorely needed.
Personally not a huge fan of Rangers as my set of Warp Spiders and Dire Avengers manage rod and engage fine on their own.
Those are the same units I use and I've maxed ROD in every game I played (@20+ games).
I'm experimenting with the second Farseer. So far, I Outflank with a unit of War Walkers and spend 1 CP to Webway Strike the Farseer Skyrunner with Doom, Executioner, and Smite. It is an added flexibility I am liking so far.
Guys, im putting together some new lists. Have games vs orks and sororitas Sunday and Thursday.
Need some inspiration so; Would some of you guys be so kind as to share some units/combos/traits or just some comments on what ever works for you these days?
I agree that swooping hawks are really good for ROD. They have yet to fail me in my half dozen games of 9th so far. They've also helped me get some EOAF as well while doing it. I would say they are my most consistent unit for getting secondaries.
Played them for a few games now and they're basically a guaranteed 12 points for Retrieve Data.
Turn 1: Retrieve in Q1
Turn 2: Fly them off the table and use another unit to retrieve in Q2
Turn 3: Bring down and retrieve in Q3
Turn 4: If you can make the move over to Q4 to retrieve then do it, if not, fly off the table again and retrieve in turn 5.
80 points well spent and if you give them the Evade ability for the 5+ invun it helps keep them on the table if they find themselves in a tough spot.
Generally though, nobody prioritises them as a target anyway.
Anybody got any other units that are really good at scoring a specific secondary?
Yeah they are good. I usually do it with scorpions. they are only 65 and they give you that third ROD that can be difficult. I can usually manage 2 pretty easily with DA and then the fourth is typically an end game luxury thing. but if you want to be certain, hawks are good for sure.
A 50 point warlock to do veil or interrogation is good, obviously. can't think of anything else.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anybody had any succes with running 3x crimson hunter exarchs? they seem decent. It is a lot of points, though.
I own three now have only used one and it was pretty good actually.
Also, I have a spare falcon an a wave serpent now. and tons of bits. Is there any of the forge world grav tanks that can be kit bashed easily? the lynx is too big and the hornets are too small, guess.
I've maxed ROD in over 20 games, having only scored 8 out of 12 once. One squad of Warp Spiders gets me 2-3 quarters and DA will get the other 1-2. ROD is pretty much a defacto secondary playing Craftworld armies.
I've played several games using To The Last where my 10 Wraithblades, 10 Dark Reapers, and 3 War Walkers are the three most expensive units. In most games, I earn 10-15 points, but there have been a few I've only earned 5.
I've not used 3 Crimson Hunters in 9th. They can only assist in getting Engage on all Fronts which puts them dangerously close to enemy shooting if trying to achieve that secondary. Move blocking, while still possible, is more difficult, and their general lack of getti g out of LOS really turned me away from running 3. I've run 2, which was OK in a Marine meta, but in today's local meta, I would not try it.
but look at this (haven't chosen psychics and exarch powers on this. but its exploding sixes for DA, skilled rider for the SPs and a fortune/guide farseer with faulchos and a doom/exe farseer on bike). You give the three flyers the 5++ and they are always -1 to hit.
you then go 2x6 dire avengers in a-1 to hit -1 dam serpent onto both centerfield objectives. while you hold the back field with remaining avengers. you can give fortune and the 5+++ to the most exposed serpent.
your opponent HAS to shoot at those two Serpens or you'll score 15 on primaries the first couple of turns. That means your CHEs should be able to get some juicy shots in. Its 6 lance shots and 6 pulselaser shots at 2+ with rerolls. and nobody should be able to hide from them as they are so mobile.
you're avengers will get in trouble, obviously once their serpents are dead, but they still pop 14 shots with exploding sixes. plus plasma grenades. And then the 2x4 spears come in to help secure those objectives. I feel this could be really good.
Needs some adjustment, obviously. maybe going down to 5 man DA squads, so you can get a sixth. maybe get some swooping hawks/scorpions for ROD. maybe downgrade a sky runner warlock to a footie for veil.
I've had a similar tactic used against me; opponent ran a Venom up on a central objective with an embarked obsec unit.
I charged the Venom with a DA unit taking the objective away from my opponent until he removed the DA the following turn. That was fine as he lost points on Primary. I definitely was not going to shoot at a Venom so once destroyed it dropped out an obsec unit sitting on the objective. Troops embarked in a vehicle do not count towards holding an objective.
Be careful about throwing Wave Serpents midboard. It is an easy way to slingshot your opponents onto midfield objectives. Your opponent would need two models to be on the objective to take it from a lone Wave Serpent.
I would not recommend on accounting for much damage output from DA. In 9th, their shooting profile is very minimal.
Do you face many vehicles/high wound monsters? Three CHE with Brightlances seems a bit excessive. Are your Ork and Sisters opponents running large numbers of vehicles? Both of those armies seems to excel with large numbers of infantry models.
You have one too many HQ choices for a Battalion. It is an easy fix to run one Battalion and one Patrol.
Definitely found out the hard way regarding giving my opponent easy charges against my wave serpents. Got one charged by some blightlord termies which gave my opponent a tonne of movement with pile ins and consolidation which ended up giving him the win as I couldn't shift them.
In my local meta, I find our flyers far too fragile even with a 5++. They're hard to hide and if you want to net points for engage then you're at risk of being an easy target. Losing stacking maluses to hit really hurt them. I may try one or two in future games, it's been a while since I've used them in 9th.
yeah, I dont think its viable either. it was just a thought. the 3 birds dont do anything better than ten reapers in a serpent.
in regards to DA in a serpent on points I just dont agree. I've tried all other ways to hold objectives in that book (that I could think of at least. feel free to drop some suggestions : ) and nothing does it as well.
Wraith blades dont have obsec and are clumsy. plus they dont shoot. They never work for me.
spears are to fragile and just work better for a. patrolling the backfield destroying stuff that need destruction or b. as super offensive units that engage aggressively.
in my experience opponents seem to respond in three ways to your t1 serpent on both points.
a. they just move up with a few models to make you not score the point. you then kill them with other units and rinse and repeat. also, its not super easy to always get two models there. Serpents are big. And what ever you put there dies. so I dont see this option very often.
b. they shoot the things dead. and let me make another move. this is the most normal thing to do, and they can only kill one most of the time. fortune if needed. that means you get one of the points you went for always. sometimes both. most of the time and they now have to kill 12 avengers and find a solution at the other point too. also, you have a turn to back the situation up or shift the board focus before they act.
or c. they go all out and flood one of the two objectives with both obsec and some smashing power. sometimes they will charge the DA to death but and loosing everything is worst case scenario. I often find I can either screen one unit with the other, do some fancy placement or deliver a strong volley of overwatch to make some of them survive. Either way you have now acchieved something I almost always want with elder; to have him focus a lot of stuff to one point.
Often I feel like unloading the DA and then opening up on whatever challenges you at the point with 9 Shuriken canons and 20 shurikens with exploding sixes plus 2d6 plasma grenade shots on your turn, kills a lot of stuff. in the sisters game he went for me with fire from an melta immolator, 5 retributors (2 mlelta 2hb) and moved up ten sisters with 2 multi meta shots. The serpent survived with 2 wounds left. I then popped out the DA killed all ten sisters and one squad of 5 spears moved up and killed all the retributors. The serpent could (should) have been dead, but it really doesn't matter that much. Now they need to do something and you are controlling what to throw in next or how to react. sometimes you can fire n fade one of the DA squads into the serpent if needed. then target choices gets even more annoying for him next turn
I know this is just a boring example, but I often feel I can manage the dynamic that follows after that initial move.
oh, yeah sorry with the 4 HQ slots. just threw together some stuff prolly just drop a psyker and take a 6th DA squad.
It gets a bit more complicated to describe tactics via word only, but I will try to convey how I score 40-45 points from holding Primary Objectives. This applies only to missions requiring hold one, hold two, hold more than opponent. I still struggle with the three missions that require hold two, hold three, hold more.
I only try to hold two objectives early game. I rarely, if ever, try to hold more than that. To do this, I place units on each objective and try to mitigate enemy shooting and, most important, assault. With the mobility of Craftworlds and stratagem Phantasm, this works very well. I work to score 10 points and look for the opportunity to score a 15 in one round. I will play a bit conservative and not over expose units. We utilize a fair amount of terrain as well as plenty of LOS blocking terrain.
In most games, I quickly move my 10 Wraithblades onto a midboard objective. This is the one objective I will likely not utilize multiple units to take, though it depends on what my opponent has. With Protect, Fortune and Hunters of Ancient Relics, opponents generally will not get close and only opponents unfamiliar with Wraithblades try to shoot at them. If I anticipate a quick moving enemy obsec unit, I may utilize a DA squad to move up with the Wraithblades to get an Obsec onto the objective.
I then look to limit my opponent to hold one or two objectives. In 9th edition, we always get a turn to react and target priority is key. If my opponent got too aggressive and pushed onto a midboard objective, I have gotten turn one charges with my Wraithblades destroying whatever tried to claim the objective. Otherwise, I develope target priority to clear off an objective (it is rare my opponent tries to hold 4 objective on turn 1, but will adjust accordingly). The goal is to keep primary objectives scoring close. I tend to score over 30 points with secondary objectives which is generally enough to win games. In many games, my opponent will score 35-45 points on Primary, but I already will accept this based on my ability to score secondaries.
Early into 9th edition, I tried out what the internet was advising; throw Wave Serpents with DA on midfield objectives to score. I quickly realized opponents would not shoot at the Wave Serpent. Rather, they would charge it. The Wave Serpent overwatch was useless as well as its assault capability. This move easily got two enemy models onto the objective and now I lost it in my next turn. Opponents set up to ensure not to destroy the Wave Serpent in assault as that would cause the DA to disembark and potentially regain control of the objective. From that, I learned to do the same if my opponent put a lone vehicle on an objective.
Of late, I tend to have two challenges.
1. One particular opponent when he plays his Death Guard. I've not been able to mitigate him scoring 30+ points on secondaries which ends up me losing the game despite scoring 75-85 points.
2. There are three missions with an objective in the center of the board. Then, I face a Space Marine player to takes Oath of the Moment and Direct Assault. Finally, they get first turn. They tend to score closer to 40 points on secondaries and I don't score 40 on secondaries (I tend to score 30-36 secondary points).
It is getting more and more challenging as more codexes are released and opponents which provides new secondaries that are easy to get a high score (Dark Angels, Space Marines, Death Guard, Blood Angels, Drukhari immediately spring to mind).
Of note, I have yet to play against the new Sisters and new Grey Knights (I've played against their previous codexes), but I've been able to play against every other Codex so far.
If placing single Wave Serpents on midboard objectives are working for you, don't let me sway you. We all play in our own metas and I can only attest to my personal experience.
10 wraith blades are fantastic too. I just feel they are a weird unit somehow. do you use quicken on them a lot?
Automatically Appended Next Post: the DA just have that versatility. they can move, they can ROD, they are msu and can split up and go places to do stuff. Steal objectives late game sometimes. but yeah, they melt rediculously fast when challenged.
I rarely cast Quicken on them. There are a few missions where a midfield objective (IE: outside of my deployment zone) in which I use Matchless Agility in order for the unit to get to the objective on turn 1. I've played well over 40 games now with large unit(s) of Wraithblades and getting to that single objective is really the biggest move I need. That unit is in assault in turn 1 or turn 2 in nearly every game.
Any tips for smaller games? I've been playing a lot of 1k games lately, and I'm finding that our more powerful wombo combo units (like reaper bombs) are too expensive to fit in well, but most of our other units just seem really underwhelming for their points compared to the 9th edition books I've been facing.
Do I just need to embrace throwing suicide avenger squads onto objectives or something?
I played only a few smaller games in a league months back. I found the game play very different at 1000 points and less, and using GT 2020 Incursion missions. I don't think I discovered anything significant as far as successful units or strategies.
However, I did enjoy 1250 and 1500 point games and felt they played a bit different. I generally could fit an army comfortably in a single detachment. Combined with the smaller army, I felt I had a lot more options available with Stratagem usage. Things I rarely utilized appeared more viable. For myself, 1250 points on a 44x60 board was the most enjoyable game size. Sadly, I was the minority and once the leagua ended, 2000 point games returned as the defacto standard.
Anyone ever try using a 10 man shadow specters squad in a wave serpent to fire and fade and shoot each turn as a mid field defense unit. There’s really nothing that can stand up too well to their guns unless it’s a heavy duty target. Any objective secured units would get slaughtered. Even hordes.
Wyldhunt wrote: Any tips for smaller games? I've been playing a lot of 1k games lately, and I'm finding that our more powerful wombo combo units (like reaper bombs) are too expensive to fit in well, but most of our other units just seem really underwhelming for their points compared to the 9th edition books I've been facing.
Do I just need to embrace throwing suicide avenger squads onto objectives or something?
Well you do need a few small Dire Avenger units. I have found War Walkers with missile launchers to be excellent in smaller games. Wraithguard are quite effective as your opponent likely has fewer units able to face them. Other than hordes, your Shining Spears can find smaller enemy targets to pick off. Similar to Sarigar, I have found stratagems to be more effective, at least the best ones like Fire and Fade…it tends to be obvious on which unit will receive it in smaller games (less competition).
warpedpig wrote: Anyone ever try using a 10 man shadow specters squad in a wave serpent to fire and fade and shoot each turn as a mid field defense unit. There’s really nothing that can stand up too well to their guns unless it’s a heavy duty target. Any objective secured units would get slaughtered. Even hordes.
It is not legal. The Wave Serpent transport capacity rules state it cannot transport models with the 'jump pack' keyword. Spectres have the 'jump pack' keyword.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For folks in the US, the FW Lynx is available for order. I've wanted to try running two in a list for awhile now and ordered one last night.
I have since tweaked it by removing the Hemlock in place of a Wave Serpent, allowing for the Wraithguard to carry D-Sythes instead of Wraithcannons and fire/fade them in and out.
With 8 Wraithblades, this should be one of your most aggressive midboard units. It needs Protect and Fortune. Fortune will be key as Necrons real way of dealing this type of unit is via Ctan Shard models. They can put out quite a few mortal wounds. I'd really look at taking Fortune/Executioner for the Farseer. If you really want to keep the Spiritseer, then make that model the Warlord and give it the Warlord Trait "Seer of the Shifting Vector".
I would personally choose a Wave Serpent. I think it will provide a bit more flexibility, but it would be for the Dark Reapers. They will provide more consistent shooting than the Wraithguard.
Had a game against the new 1k Sons book and was pretty impressed at their psychic phase, albeit very long. Made a few mistakes by walking off the objective a few times and trying to manoeuvre around his denies. I did get a 77-71 win but if I'd ironed out my mistakes it would have been a cleaner and more decisive victory.
His army was very much a mid-range army and I took on the stance of the defender so it was a lot of reactionary moves to his plays by playing more conservatively, avoiding deny the witch tests on my own key powers.
Managed to contest the mid-board from turn three onwards with my buffed Wraithblades, that got fortune and quicken off to charge into his big blob of terminators and cut down quite a few as I'd managed to bait out his 3CP damage reduction stratagem in the shooting phase so he didn't have the CP to withstand the blades. I also got some key denies on his mortal wound output so I was able to clear the remaining terminators in the following turn.
I did feel my Dark Reapers suffered a lot due to some of my powers getting denied like guide, doom and had jinx denied more than once that game.
The extra farseer on bike did well for me, being able to contest Wrath of Magnus with executioner and smite did help in denying my opponent a few times.
One point that stood out was getting out of deny the witch range. I am surprised more people don't premeasure this. For Craftworld armies, I've found this exceptionally important to do.
I've been a huge fan of a large unit of Wraithblades. They contest the midboard very well. Glad to see others utilizing them.
For the Dark Reapers, there are a couple things to aid when Guide/Doom/Jinx become unavailable. (1) Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots. (2) Runes of the Farseer for reroll 1's to wound. Many times, Reapers need a 3 to wound. To get more mileage, get another unit such as War Walkers within range of the Farseer.
The Craftworld trait, Warding Runes, is interesting. More and more armies in 9th have the ability to generate Mortal Wounds. Are we at a point where getting a 5+ to ignore mortal wounds necessary?
Premeasuring denies was something my opponent didn't do, which I suppose with more practise he would get used to but for the most part 1k Sons don't seem to care too much with their army wide +1 to cast (which I'm very jealous having to pay 1CP every turn for!). Being able to avoid 3D6 denies was crucial in getting important powers off too.
I used a unit of 5 out of a wave serpent but I am considering adding another 1 or going for the full 10 and deep striking or slogging them up the board. 5 feels okay, but absolutely need backup to chew through units. The 6+ to generate extra attacks stratagem did help and I'm considering swapping a psychic power so they can get access to +1 to hit in melee to generate more, more reliably. How do you tend to use your 10 man squad?
I had EC and MS on the Reapers but had some atrocious rolling to hit. I didn't even consider Runes of the Farseer, that would have been useful in the turns I didn't have Doom!
Warding Runes seems interesting, especially against GK and 1kSons. I'd need to have proper sit down and think about how I could replace one of my Craftworld traits. I find Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots too good to pass up on but I could see dropping Hunters of Ancient Relics for it. It would have been really useful in keeping more Wraithblades alive as well as some of my obsec units.
I've recently moved and am assessing the New meta. If I am encountering more MW I will strongly consider Warding Runes.
Most games, I run 8-10 Wraithblades with Axe and Shield. I start them out of LOS or set up in the open, but prepared to move them via Phantasm. Turn 1 usually has me move + Matchless Agility to get on or very near a midfield objective (Hunters of Ancient Relics is significant with this size unit). Turn 1 casting is important as the Wraithblades are now visible and will be shot at or assaulted. Fortune is most important and Protect is second most important. If my list has it, I may cast Conceal on them for a -1 to be hit. It is a rare game I lose a unit of 10. 2+, 3++, 5+++ is very hard to chew through. The one hard counter, but one I rarely see is abilities that ignore invulnerable saves. Marines and Chaos have psychic abilities and IIRC, the Nightbringer ignores in assault.
The 6+ extra hit only works if I cast Enhance to remove the -1 to hit penalty. I've not bothered really. By ensuring proper Pile In moves the unit gets 36-40 attacks on their initial assault. I tend to have something that gives reroll 1's to hit and/or wound which generally cripples most opposing units.
It is an expensive unit, but it has been the only thing that can survive the deadly midboard objectives.
I just feel they dont get the job done. and they are so rigid. slow, no shooting, weak in melee. I mean, d3 dam and -1 to hit? its just.. sketchy at best.
I feel like revisiting assurmen and DA spam. Maybe even 10-15 guardians with celestial. Put them on points and see what the opponent does to remove them. You can apply protect and fortune here too. and this guys can move, do actions, shoot and just be places and do stuff. for cheap.
They perform with buffs like Protect and Fortune, and are an excellent counter-charge unit with Hunters of Ancient Relics meaning 4 attacks on the charge. Quicken is an option for extra movement and matchless agility is decent too. For combat, Doom is an excellent help on clearing tougher units and for the most part you're wounding on 3s, 2s if you give them Empower.
They're one of the most durable units we have and they're the best for sticking on an objective in the mid board.
Cheap units are fine for backfield objectives but anyone who wants to remove cheap units can do so with ease compared to dedicating a lot of firepower to a big or even half sized Wraithblade unit. I found them finicky to use well when I started using them but now that I'm used to them they're a core part of my game plan for competitive games. I think you're placing too much value in the cheap cost of units and not considering the value of durability attached to a good combat unit. Sure, D3 damage is not great, but as Sarigar stated, you can get a lot of attacks in on the charge with smart pile ins and rerolls and that D3 starts to matter less with the weight of attacks.
yeah. true. all of it. ill just have to get my stuff together and find a slot for that 400 point unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: one thing, though, how do you get 5 attacks per model? its just 4, right? 2 base, 1 on the charge and 1 more for hunters.
It's a unit you have to build around. Nearly every game, they are in a detachment with Hunters of Ancient Relics and Wrath of the Dead/Savage Blades. Rerolls of 1s either to hit and to wound is quite significant. If one is not willing to build for it, then I wouldn't recommend the unit.
Slow is really a misnomer. The strategy for a big block of Wraithblades is to get them to a midboard objective. Their role is not to race across the board in a single turn. We have other units available. They get into assault on either turn 1 or 2 in nearly every game; I have not felt their movement to be lacking.
It is not everyone's cup of tea, which I appreciate.
Quicken helps a lot for this too if you're planning a charge as obviously you can't use matchless agility in that scenario. I've found myself taking quicken more and more in recent games.
yeah, I can see them being living hell to drop with the right buffs. I've run 5 many times and they just dont cut it for me.
8-10 is a lot of well protected wounds to chew through. and because of he big base, the opponent often wound be able to get obsec on the point. so its 350 points to keep a center objective for a couple of turns. sounds legit.
If you have Hail of doom custom craftworld trait which is a -1 AP for shuriken weapons within 12". AND you cast JINX. Does it stack and give your shuriken wounds a -2 AP?
Jinx reduces the save by one, which is not the same as AP1.
Example. Marine character with 3+ save and a 4++ invulnerable.
With Jinx, said character now has a 4+ and 5++ invulnerable.
AP1 weapon shoots, wounds, and said Jinx character rolls for save needing a 5+ or 5++ (in this case, the armor save will be the same as the invulnerable save).
I was thinking of doing a Saim hann list that spams 3x9 man units of windriders with shuriken catapults and shining spears. You could really just flood one part of the board and unload with shuriken with the -1 strat for shuriken and then give them the masters of concealment for a +1 to save from ranged attacks. They would hit harder and be tankier than normal. They can advance and shoot so they can hit anywhere on the board pretty much.
A challenge to consider. The Windriders need to get within 12" to shoot. Masters of Concealment works against shooting outside of 12". With the bonus, bikes are basically the equivalent to an Intercessor; 3+ save, T4, 2W.
There is a great tactics video on shining Spears created in the lasdt month or so on YouTube. Recommend watching to assist on tactics and building the unit.
They’re gonna change shuriken to be 18” and -1 AP from what I’ve heard about the new Eldar update rumors. The idea would be flood on side of the table and shuriken spam the crap out of it and hopefully finish off whatever is there with a quickened unit of spears.
The rest of the opponent army would be farther than 12” away for masters of concealment to still work. Whatever was within 12” really would get murdered by 3x9 units of windriders all shooting 4 shots of shurikens. If you can doom/jinx as well. Almost 120 shots with rerolls to wound. Brutal. Enough to wipe out many squads of guys. Even terminators collapse to sheer volume of wounds.
In hind sight, poor deployment played a large factor on my end. I considered phantasming after losing the roll off but decided not to out of laziness.
Turn One, one walker was destroyed (I had another in reserve), my unit of Dark Reapers was wiped of the table and my wave serpent was bracketed down to poor levels.
In my own turn one, i was let down by bad damage rolls of D6 bright lances and only managed to break open a single venom (of which there were two, each carrying Incubi).
Wind riders fired 18 shuriken shots which should have wiped the incubi which spilled out but missed horribly and my OP made almost all of the saves...
In his turn two, he gained the ability to advance and charge, surrounded me and began picking units off left, right and centre.
I didn't even play my turn two - I have never conceded before at such an early stage, but i was already around 20 points down and had next to nothing left on the table.
Should have redeployed to hide my reapers, walker and serpent better. That'll be the last time i take the "ahhh f*ck it. I'll be fine" approach to 40k
I'm not sure how much of a difference it would have made to the end result, but I'm confident it would have lasted longer with those key units on the table at the start of my first turn.
warpedpig wrote: They’re gonna change shuriken to be 18” and -1 AP from what I’ve heard about the new Eldar update rumors. The idea would be flood on side of the table and shuriken spam the crap out of it and hopefully finish off whatever is there with a quickened unit of spears.
The rest of the opponent army would be farther than 12” away for masters of concealment to still work. Whatever was within 12” really would get murdered by 3x9 units of windriders all shooting 4 shots of shurikens. If you can doom/jinx as well. Almost 120 shots with rerolls to wound. Brutal. Enough to wipe out many squads of guys. Even terminators collapse to sheer volume of wounds.
Well, go ahead and do it. Let us know how it works some time next year when the book is released
In hind sight, poor deployment played a large factor on my end. I considered phantasming after losing the roll off but decided not to out of laziness.
Turn One, one walker was destroyed (I had another in reserve), my unit of Dark Reapers was wiped of the table and my wave serpent was bracketed down to poor levels.
In my own turn one, i was let down by bad damage rolls of D6 bright lances and only managed to break open a single venom (of which there were two, each carrying Incubi).
I played against Drukhari lad t week with a fairly skilled opponent. It felt like we were playing two completely different games. I feel like I need to play a near perfect game and my opponent would need to be fairly less experienced than I for me to stand a chance. Good luck next time.
Wind riders fired 18 shuriken shots which should have wiped the incubi which spilled out but missed horribly and my OP made almost all of the saves...
In his turn two, he gained the ability to advance and charge, surrounded me and began picking units off left, right and centre.
I didn't even play my turn two - I have never conceded before at such an early stage, but i was already around 20 points down and had next to nothing left on the table.
Should have redeployed to hide my reapers, walker and serpent better. That'll be the last time i take the "ahhh f*ck it. I'll be fine" approach to 40k
I'm not sure how much of a difference it would have made to the end result, but I'm confident it would have lasted longer with those key units on the table at the start of my first turn.
warpedpig wrote: They’re gonna change shuriken to be 18” and -1 AP from what I’ve heard about the new Eldar update rumors. The idea would be flood on side of the table and shuriken spam the crap out of it and hopefully finish off whatever is there with a quickened unit of spears.
The rest of the opponent army would be farther than 12” away for masters of concealment to still work. Whatever was within 12” really would get murdered by 3x9 units of windriders all shooting 4 shots of shurikens. If you can doom/jinx as well. Almost 120 shots with rerolls to wound. Brutal. Enough to wipe out many squads of guys. Even terminators collapse to sheer volume of wounds.
Mind posting the rest of the rumors?! I'm always looking for some nugget to help keep me going...
It is a bit difficult to discuss tactics based on incomplete and unsubstantiated rumors. The book is not even rumored to be released in 2021 and likely not even the first few months of 2022. Once it is released, this thread will likely be retired and a new thread started based on the 9th edition Codex.
Your idea is based off of Rise of the Phoenix's Master of Concealment (8th edition) and rumored weapon stat changes. Not sure what type of tactics advise you are seeking.
warpedpig wrote: Anyone ever run 3x3 support platforms with D-Cannons.
I would be more tempted to run 3 x 3 walker spam. Better movement, invun saves, similar points values and better weapon loadout options.
Short range of D-Cannons makes them easily avoidable on large tables - especially on units like the Support Platforms which you won't be moving around because the whole point is to keep them in cover.
They're also useless for buffing as they count as individual units as soon as the game starts so things like Guide / Protect / Fortune are wasted on them.
I have played one unit of 2-3 a few times which can be useful for holding a home objective while putting out some solid shots but beyond that I don't overly rate them.
yeah, im having huge succes with war walker squads of 3. im in a horde heavy meta with a particularly nasty neurons build dominating our little play group. before that it was pox walkers from dg. those 36 guided/doomed s4 ap-1 hits from the AMLs is just so harsh and really keeps those blobs honest.
runing 3x3 could be fun. and brutal too. I still dont see my self putting anything but AMLs on them. used to love star cannons on them, but.. idk. im just not feeling them any more.
Automatically Appended Next Post: yeah, im having huge succes with war walker squads of 3. im in a horde heavy meta with a particularly nasty neurons build dominating our little play group. before that it was pox walkers from dg. those 36 guided/doomed s4 ap-1 hits from the AMLs is just so harsh and really keeps those blobs honest.
runing 3x3 could be fun. and brutal too. I still dont see my self putting anything but AMLs on them. used to love star cannons on them, but.. idk. im just not feeling them any more.
warpedpig wrote: Anyone use vibro cannon spam successfully to immobilize enemy movement
I've only used three. It did not immobilize enemy movement in any significant manner. If the Vibro Cannon does any damage, then the unit cannot Advance unless it has the Fly keyword. They were meh at trying to chip away the last couple wounds off of something. Worth trying if you already have the models, but I would not recommend going out and buying massed Support Weapons to try this particular build.
im trying to do it a bit more standard eldar meta-ish with this one. only leaning into strong units. if you've followed my posts on here I like MSU with lots of trading units (often running 6x5 DA squads), fast units to score points and rarely going for the powerful hard to remove 10 wraiths or 9 shining spears as a center piece. Actually I've rarely done 10 reapers either.
Basically its DA and scorpions do ROD. 9 buffed wraiths go to the center objective. sometimes stranglehold and sometimes Engage. Scorpions and spears help with that one. Reapers and wraithseers provide fire support and the psykers do buffs and MW. 12 cp should make for reasonable strat support all game, I think.
Problems I foresee: I want buffs on both the spears and wraiths. no screens.
I like the list for the most part. It isn't very far off my own go to competitive build which has served me well so far. One thing I would consider is breaking your army up into a Spearhead and a Patrol to avail of the different Craftworld traits as you aren't making full use of Hunters of Ancient Relics and as a result, other units, namely the Dark Reapers, are losing out as Masterful Shots is generally what is needed for ensuring you force enemy units onto their invulnerable saves.
I don't rate Scorpions personally, they are good for ROD, but Warp Spiders do their job better with a natural -1 to hit and a free redeploy with Web of Deceit, which frees up points for other units that may be more impactful.
A 6 man Spears unit is just asking for blast so I would consider dropping one and freeing points in the underslung cannon on the serpent. The serpent should never be in LoS, so it is a redundant upgrade.
The Spears don't need buffs as much as the Wraiths do. Folks find them a scary unit so are often targeted, but the 3++ is generally a good enough barrier and they're a good unit for hitting the back lines. 180-odd points is a steal if you can shut down a PBC or Manticore for a turn or two, and wrapping is a possibility with 5 minis depending on what you're charging.
I am not sure having two Wraithseers is the way forward with the list. They go down very easy these days and a more reliable option would be a two-man conclave for 36" Jinx/Protect with the seer council strat.
Squeezing in a second Serpent gives you a lot of extra toughness that you can load some Dire Avengers in or even go for a Falcon for the Pulse Laser and the transport cap, which also gives you more speed to cap objectives.
You've got a good MW battery here but just watch for leaving them as easy pickings, something I'm still figuring out myself.
If you are concerned about screening, there is the wiggle room to drop models and/or units for Support Platforms, cheap Vypers or even a barebones Storm Guardian squad to sit in a corner all game with a 4++ strat. I ran one Vyper in my tournament list and while it dies to a stiff breeze, it can be so easily hidden and is generally an ignorable vehicle that can net you points for engage or whittle away chaff in the back field.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I like the list for the most part. It isn't very far off my own go to competitive build which has served me well so far. One thing I would consider is breaking your army up into a Spearhead and a Patrol to avail of the different Craftworld traits as you aren't making full use of Hunters of Ancient Relics and as a result, other units, namely the Dark Reapers, are losing out as Masterful Shots is generally what is needed for ensuring you force enemy units onto their invulnerable saves.
I don't rate Scorpions personally, they are good for ROD, but Warp Spiders do their job better with a natural -1 to hit and a free redeploy with Web of Deceit, which frees up points for other units that may be more impactful.
A 6 man Spears unit is just asking for blast so I would consider dropping one and freeing points in the underslung cannon on the serpent. The serpent should never be in LoS, so it is a redundant upgrade.
The Spears don't need buffs as much as the Wraiths do. Folks find them a scary unit so are often targeted, but the 3++ is generally a good enough barrier and they're a good unit for hitting the back lines. 180-odd points is a steal if you can shut down a PBC or Manticore for a turn or two, and wrapping is a possibility with 5 minis depending on what you're charging.
I am not sure having two Wraithseers is the way forward with the list. They go down very easy these days and a more reliable option would be a two-man conclave for 36" Jinx/Protect with the seer council strat.
Squeezing in a second Serpent gives you a lot of extra toughness that you can load some Dire Avengers in or even go for a Falcon for the Pulse Laser and the transport cap, which also gives you more speed to cap objectives.
You've got a good MW battery here but just watch for leaving them as easy pickings, something I'm still figuring out myself.
If you are concerned about screening, there is the wiggle room to drop models and/or units for Support Platforms, cheap Vypers or even a barebones Storm Guardian squad to sit in a corner all game with a 4++ strat. I ran one Vyper in my tournament list and while it dies to a stiff breeze, it can be so easily hidden and is generally an ignorable vehicle that can net you points for engage or whittle away chaff in the back field.
Dude, I love your comments. So on point. every thing you bring up is relevant. As said, normally I run a different archetype and have way more flexibility.
- argh. im not sure I can live with spending 3 cp on giving the reapers masterfull. I do run two detachments every now and then but I really dont like it. In this list it should probably be done, though. As you mention further down I run 2 wraithseeirs and thats only because I dont have an hq slot for another warlock. so maybe I should go battalion/patrol. why spearhead?
- scorpions are weak. I agree. its 130 to get the job done and spiders can do it for 90. I guess hawks can do it for 80, right? I should probably go for that. its just, with scorpions you get more bodies on the table and they are a bit better for engage. idk. both things have merit imo.
- the 6 man spears unit asks for blast, yes, but so does the nine and if I had the points id have that : ) my theory here is to have a hammer to the 9man wraithblade anvil. is 5 spears enough to fill that role?
- 2 wraithseeirs feels wrong. I agree. problem is I need that second cast of protect/jinx. its too many points for that, tho. they are decent if you can keep them out of LOS but at the end of the day they just play very rigidly because of that limitation.
- second serpent is always good. should I get rid of a seer for that? problem is that those 2 dcannons are a big part of my shooting outside of reapers.
- yup. thepsykers get caught alone when I only have 3 DA squads for screening. its a problem for sure.
- vipers are my favorite units almost. I dont have them here but I often run 2 or even 3 in my brigade build. They are so amazing with 2 shruriken cannons and expert crafters.
- you're right in pointing out that the reapers' serpent should always be out of los. so the stones, the vectored and the underslung are redundant. problem is that in my experience, they always get both shot and targeted very fast in games. if they get tagged, those 9 s6 shots are beautiful and once the car is out in the open, vectored and stones are just amazing for extending the serpents life. would you seriously run it all naked?
I guess if I did that and changed scorpions to hawks id have 70-80 points more to play with. I could go down to one seer and get a falcon plus 5 more DA?
the bg problem her is, that my only punch, really, is reapers and spears. im not a fan of that in a list, that wants to contest stuff. I like soft punch lists if they are manufactured to control the board state with numbers and mild threats flooding the board. but here I feel the list should pack more punch to be able to actually punch opponents off that center objective the wraithblades try to hold. or is the 10 reaper shooting enough?
ill work with this list for a few days and post any changes.
If you really need both Jinx and Protect, it may be worthwhile to try a 4 model Warlock Conclave.
They cast 2 powers, take up 1 HQ. They can be bolstered with Focus Will and Seer Council. And you can use Concordance of Power for either power. Or swap out one of the two powers to use Quicken. Basically, a +3 cast bonus while casting 2 powers.
It is 160 points, but if you are looking to spend 170 on a Wraithseer, it may be what you are looking for.
Sarigar wrote: If you really need both Jinx and Protect, it may be worthwhile to try a 4 model Warlock Conclave.
They cast 2 powers, take up 1 HQ. They can be bolstered with Focus Will and Seer Council. And you can use Concordance of Power for either power. Or swap out one of the two powers to use Quicken. Basically, a +3 cast bonus while casting 2 powers.
It is 160 points, but if you are looking to spend 170 on a Wraithseer, it may be what you are looking for.
Damn. thats not too shabby, actually. Also, id be able to cast 36 inch jinx which is bonkers good. They could chill in the falcon (that im trying to fit in) if I see any indirect fire. if they have quicken and jinx/protect and I keep jinx/protect on my remaining wraith seer ill have the flexibility of quicken jinx, protect all in the same turn just as I had with twin wraithseers. plus a falcon!
check this list then. is it better? also, how do I fit in another DA squad?
*List fixed now. had to strip down the serpent and the falcon. I dont like it. want a 4th DA squad. is the list better now?
Automatically Appended Next Post: hmm. what about removing one dark reaper? then I can pimp up the falcon with an AML and a shuriken cannon and get a cannon on the serpent too. isn't that better than one reaper?
If you want another DA squad, drop the Spears by one (5 total) and drop either a Wraithblade or Reaper. If there are extra points, maybe Vectored Engines for the Falcon.
