Ive been souping in yvraine with two wraithseers either as a supreme or a battalion with storm.guardians and wraith blade axes in the web way. The rest gets filled out by cwe. The new quin rules look mint. Im.certainly going to be buying that wd and also need to invest in a quin codex. Struggling to find a copy atm though..
Things will be opening up a bit more in the next few weeks. I've get to attend my first ITC one day event this year. Once I complete the bases for the Dire Avengers, the army is painted and ready. After going back and forth, I opted for a Craftworld list instead of a soup list. I haven't played much this year, so am keeping it line with what I am comfortable and knowledgeable with. Plus, I habe not played the new ITC missions at all which will be an added layer of complexity. Below is what I am bringing.
BATTALION
1 Farseer, Singing Spear (115)
1 Warlock (45)
5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire (58)
5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire (58)
5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire (58)
1 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Spirit Stone (156)
1 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Spirit Stone (156)
1 Falcon, Pulse Laser, Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Spirit Stone (125)
1 Falcon, Pulse Laser, Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Spirit Stone (125)
1 Falcon, Pulse Laser, Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Spirit Stone (125)
Sarigar wrote: Things will be opening up a bit more in the next few weeks. I've get to attend my first ITC one day event this year. Once I complete the bases for the Dire Avengers, the army is painted and ready. After going back and forth, I opted for a Craftworld list instead of a soup list. I haven't played much this year, so am keeping it line with what I am comfortable and knowledgeable with. Plus, I habe not played the new ITC missions at all which will be an added layer of complexity. Below is what I am bringing.
BATTALION
1 Farseer, Singing Spear (115)
1 Warlock (45)
5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire (58)
5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire (58)
5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire (58)
1 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Spirit Stone (156)
1 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Spirit Stone (156)
1 Falcon, Pulse Laser, Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Spirit Stone (125)
1 Falcon, Pulse Laser, Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Spirit Stone (125)
1 Falcon, Pulse Laser, Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Spirit Stone (125)
Sarigar wrote: Things will be opening up a bit more in the next few weeks. I've get to attend my first ITC one day event this year. Once I complete the bases for the Dire Avengers, the army is painted and ready. After going back and forth, I opted for a Craftworld list instead of a soup list. I haven't played much this year, so am keeping it line with what I am comfortable and knowledgeable with. Plus, I habe not played the new ITC missions at all which will be an added layer of complexity. Below is what I am bringing.
BATTALION
1 Farseer, Singing Spear (115)
1 Warlock (45)
5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire (58)
5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire (58)
5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire (58)
1 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Spirit Stone (156)
1 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Spirit Stone (156)
1 Falcon, Pulse Laser, Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Spirit Stone (125)
1 Falcon, Pulse Laser, Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Spirit Stone (125)
1 Falcon, Pulse Laser, Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Spirit Stone (125)
Definitely a strong list that looks skewed towards marines if I'm not mistaken? Should do well against them, which is probably the most important consideration right now. I found similar lists to be not great against sisters horde lists, not enough screen against the Repentia being a major problem, they can melee a couple of tanks a turn. But, a) I'm not the greatest player in the world by any stretch of the imagination and b) it's a lot easier to net list a sisters horde on TTS than in real life. I'll be very interested to see how it pans out.
What's with the 312pts on Wave Serpents with nothing to carry? Their shields are pretty irrelevant, as you have lots of better AT targets for your opponent to prioritise, which means you're taking them primaritly for shields offensively?
Automatically Appended Next Post: You have 15 T3 troops, so in ITC at least you're not going to be able to contest a great deal. And against an army like BA I think you're going to lose 2-3 tanks a turn in CC with no screen or board control. Huge amount of firepower though!
Sarigar wrote: Things will be opening up a bit more in the next few weeks. I've get to attend my first ITC one day event this year. Once I complete the bases for the Dire Avengers, the army is painted and ready. After going back and forth, I opted for a Craftworld list instead of a soup list. I haven't played much this year, so am keeping it line with what I am comfortable and knowledgeable with. Plus, I habe not played the new ITC missions at all which will be an added layer of complexity. Below is what I am bringing.
BATTALION
1 Farseer, Singing Spear (115)
1 Warlock (45)
5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire (58)
5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire (58)
5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult, Shredding Fire (58)
1 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Spirit Stone (156)
1 Wave Serpent, Twin Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Spirit Stone (156)
1 Falcon, Pulse Laser, Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Spirit Stone (125)
1 Falcon, Pulse Laser, Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Spirit Stone (125)
1 Falcon, Pulse Laser, Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Spirit Stone (125)
List looks pretty mean overall and I hope you do well at your tournament!
As far as future changes go, I agree with others that making trades for an Autarch sounds like a good idea. OR drop one Serpent and add two squads of min Dark Reapers to the Spearhead that will sit in the other Serpent. Unfortunately without significant overhaul the only points to squeeze are out of Yvraine.. Either 2x3 with a Tempest Launcher and Rain of Death (which will synergise well with the Spinners for a sh*t ton of no LOS firepower) or 2x3 with an AML and Rapid shot seems solid. Even Better if you can squeeze an Autarch too.
I'd definitely consider drop the 2 wave serpents, take a second batallion with snipers & autarch and roll the spearhead into it for 4 extra cp. Leaves you with 60pts spare change. With that spare change, Striking scorpions with crushing blow/claw exarch (and ghoststep on your warlock) would give you a flex unit for turn 3, to grab an objective or bully something in CC, for 54pts.
Well, a lot of high toughness tanks are hard to deal with by armies will less anti-weapons.
This might work well against elite armies such as Marines with Intercessors where 2 wound weapons are key.
But you might not have enough shots to deal with hordes.
That's the reason why I'm hesitating to field such an army.
Shadow weavers might work out better in this list since you've got so much anti marine type firepower. 9d6 shots could be more valuable than the 6d6 even if they're single damage.
It just depends on the matchups really.
Against elite/armoured lists it should stomp, especially if you get first turn. Against horde board control and fast melee units it will be tougher for sure, your stuff is very quick so if you play cautiously you could be ok.
I played against a 18-aggressor blob last night, it was pretty hench. Each team was close to deleting a falcon or raider every time it shot in tactical doctrine, and that was just the 666pts of aggressors. I just don't put much faith in a list of pure T7 12W 3+ hulls unless you can outrange or outdeploy them. The point being, with 11 of them to deploy that's going to be very hard to do.
I appreciate everyone's input. It is definitely skewed towards elite armies. It is hard for me to know what has changed over the past 4-5 months in which I have had little opportunities to play. I know a couple folks building Sororitas armies, but unsure if that type of army will show up. I will learn soon enough if the local meta has changed drastically over the past few months.
I am concerned about Blood Angel armies and looking at how to contend with their significant assault. Ultimately, I need to get games in against BA to better understand their capabilities. Not sure I want to go second against that particular army. Of all armies, this is one that feels most like my Achilles heel.
For ITC, I had little issues with holding the same number of objectives. I rarely would hold more, but I would also prevent my opponent from holding more as well. I would typically get kill more and tie on objectives each turn. I don't max out scores in this fashion, but can get the win. I generally will move all my vehicles to utilize as objective holders and screen out deep strike. I typically play with under 20 models and learned that my movement phase is critical. However, this is a new ITC mission set and my strategy could fall completely apart (I have not played the new missions yet). And I could walk into a bunch of horde armies...
The Wave Serpents are in a bit of a quandry. Several of you observed the same thing. I definitely appreciate the input. There are a lot of options. Building a second battalion is certainly feasible. I could drop one and add a unit of Dark Reapers which would go into the remaining Wave Serpent. In the past, Wave Serpents were my general all purpose unit. Anti tank, anti infantry, launch an assault against high firepower unit, utilize Serpent Shields to plink off the last wound or two, help position against deep strike, etc...
An Autarch definitely ensures maximum firepower combined with Expert Crafters. Adding a second Battalion detachment has a lot of merit as the number of drops no longer matters. Autarch and 3 x 5 Rangers. Scorpions synergize with Rangers offering the ability to start in Reserve. It definitely would add a bit more flexibility.
Thanks again. I'll work through some numbers and update. The second Battalion detachment appears to be the better direction.
grouchoben wrote: I played against a 18-aggressor blob last night, it was pretty hench. Each team was close to deleting a falcon or raider every time it shot in tactical doctrine, and that was just the 666pts of aggressors. I just don't put much faith in a list of pure T7 12W 3+ hulls unless you can outrange or outdeploy them. The point being, with 11 of them to deploy that's going to be very hard to do.
I'm guessing they were raven guard to get close enough to fire?
Well, I'd be careful with Rangers in an otherwise fully mobile list.
My experience is that the enemy will move towards your static units no matter what.
And this is what you don't want since you want to dictate the enemy where he/she has to move to.
grouchoben wrote: I played against a 18-aggressor blob last night, it was pretty hench. Each team was close to deleting a falcon or raider every time it shot in tactical doctrine, and that was just the 666pts of aggressors. I just don't put much faith in a list of pure T7 12W 3+ hulls unless you can outrange or outdeploy them. The point being, with 11 of them to deploy that's going to be very hard to do.
I'm guessing they were raven guard to get close enough to fire?
No, Iron Hands for 3+/5++/5+++ with apothecary, chapter master, ferrios and chaplain.
grouchoben wrote: I played against a 18-aggressor blob last night, it was pretty hench. Each team was close to deleting a falcon or raider every time it shot in tactical doctrine, and that was just the 666pts of aggressors. I just don't put much faith in a list of pure T7 12W 3+ hulls unless you can outrange or outdeploy them. The point being, with 11 of them to deploy that's going to be very hard to do.
I'm guessing they were raven guard to get close enough to fire?
No, Iron Hands for 3+/5++/5+++ with apothecary, chapter master, ferrios and chaplain.
Certainly very tough but how were they getting in range or were you moving forward to them?
I gave 1st turn and back-deployed to deny them first turn. But I run 3xbanshees and 3xwyches, drazhar and yncarne, so couldn't avoid them for more than one turn. They have a decent threat range of an average of 26.5" inches too, so you can't avod them more than one turn unless you get H&A deployment.
I appreciate everyone's input. It is definitely skewed towards elite armies. It is hard for me to know what has changed over the past 4-5 months in which I have had little opportunities to play. I know a couple folks building Sororitas armies, but unsure if that type of army will show up. I will learn soon enough if the local meta has changed drastically over the past few months.
I am concerned about Blood Angel armies and looking at how to contend with their significant assault. Ultimately, I need to get games in against BA to better understand their capabilities. Not sure I want to go second against that particular army. Of all armies, this is one that feels most like my Achilles heel.
For ITC, I had little issues with holding the same number of objectives. I rarely would hold more, but I would also prevent my opponent from holding more as well. I would typically get kill more and tie on objectives each turn. I don't max out scores in this fashion, but can get the win. I generally will move all my vehicles to utilize as objective holders and screen out deep strike. I typically play with under 20 models and learned that my movement phase is critical. However, this is a new ITC mission set and my strategy could fall completely apart (I have not played the new missions yet). And I could walk into a bunch of horde armies...
The Wave Serpents are in a bit of a quandry. Several of you observed the same thing. I definitely appreciate the input. There are a lot of options. Building a second battalion is certainly feasible. I could drop one and add a unit of Dark Reapers which would go into the remaining Wave Serpent. In the past, Wave Serpents were my general all purpose unit. Anti tank, anti infantry, launch an assault against high firepower unit, utilize Serpent Shields to plink off the last wound or two, help position against deep strike, etc...
An Autarch definitely ensures maximum firepower combined with Expert Crafters. Adding a second Battalion detachment has a lot of merit as the number of drops no longer matters. Autarch and 3 x 5 Rangers. Scorpions synergize with Rangers offering the ability to start in Reserve. It definitely would add a bit more flexibility.
Thanks again. I'll work through some numbers and update. The second Battalion detachment appears to be the better direction.
I've moved away from the all dakka list to plenty of dakka with two battalions of bladestorm avengers with asurman. Purely because of melee. I was winning all the shooting match ups but really coming unstuck against the more melee focused opponents like sisters with repentia and slaanesh demons.
I did well yesterday against a black legion demonforge type list just by deploying very defensive with strung out lines of avengers to slow his stuff down. I have lost 300 odd points of bigger guns but the avengers chip in pretty well, especially with overwatch contributions too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: I gave 1st turn and back-deployed to deny them first turn. But I run 3xbanshees and 3xwyches, drazhar and yncarne, so couldn't avoid them for more than one turn. They have a decent threat range of an average of 26.5" inches too, so you can't avod them more than one turn unless you get H&A deployment.
Ah, yeah running a close combat type list against aggressors isn't fun. I remember taking my salamander army to the local store and getting a game against Tyranids with lots of little bugs. I really felt sorry for the guy, it was just the most horrible matchup for him.
Normally I agree, but Banshees deny overwatch, and charging through ruins is very doable against them, as they love to occupy the centre of the board. And wyches don't really care about powerfists, while aggressors really do care about shardnets.
grouchoben wrote: Normally I agree, but Banshees deny overwatch, and charging through ruins is very doable against them, as they love to occupy the centre of the board. And wyches don't really care about powerfists, while aggressors really do care about shardnets.
Nice combo, especially with war shout making the banshees an additional -1 to hit. I assume the yncarne and drazhar have to do the heavy lifting in terms of damage though?
Worked through the list a bit. For now, I still want to utilize a pure Craftworld army until I can knock the rust off of them.
Regarding Rangers, when I ran them in the past, I rarely started them on the table. I would generally deep strike them into areas making them tough to get to while netting me things like recon points and/line breaker.
Aggressors are a thing, but it comes down to in game decisions. I've faced 17 Ravenguard Centurions (pre FAQ) in a list and found work arounds. Deployment, who has first turn, mortal wound psychic powers, target priority, army familiarity, etc.... are just a part of the game. I am not dismissing them, but they are not something I would reconfigure my list against.
After taking some suggestions, I've adjusted the list slightly.
Looks a more balanced list overall, should work well. I'm still not 100% sold on nightspinners personally, relying on 6's for ap isn't great in my book, but the autarch should help a lot with their accuracy at least.
If you do face sisters start with the rangers on the board. Their characters are pretty squishy and they really rely on them to buff their killer units, if nothing else it may cause them to make mistakes moving since they're liable to want to hide their characters but also keep units within buff range.
Thanks. I think my biggest challenge the same as many others; not being able to game and figure out the ins and outs of a list. My wife will think I'm nuts if I roll out the battle mat just to place models and learn how to zone deep striking and understand overlapping ranges for shooting (I only go into work for an hour or two a day now, so I have extra time on my hands now). I do a lot of pre measuring during the game; if you are a long time player, you may appreciate just how important this is.
I know what you mean, TTS has been great in that respect for me. My more shooty lists were great on paper and performed really well in games against other shooty lists but it was only when I faced different challenges did certain shortcomings become apparent.
Same, can't say enough good things about TTS, especially at the moment eh? There are lots of cool events going on too if you want to get some competition practice in.
In case you're looking for some quite tactically driven ITC content, the Art Of War Youtube crew have been streaming games. Thought I'd post Nick's list here as it was a little different to what I'd seen, utilising a lot of spears, DAs, Asurmen and the relic hunters/superior shurikens craftworld traits. Here's the video in case anyone is keen to fill up some time
Interesting that hes gone for avenging strikes as opposed to bladestorm.
Im sceptical but wish him luck.
Ive been playing around with the idea for DA horde dar army but then I imagine coming up against massed storm bolters/bolters and decide I will be having a bad day lol.
Yeah, AS is pretty good on larger units. Having watched a few games he's just hugging objectives and playing really conservatively with the DAs. Its good to see an endorsement of the guardian bomb as I think that's a lot more fun than lots of msus. Overall I like these games for learning, but there are other channels (tabeltop tactics, SN) that are a little bit more entertaining/easy to follow
HAR Spears worked very well for Sean Nayden at LVO, so I'm not surprised to see them in the list, but the avengers are a bit unexpected. 4++ is nice but it's not a cheap setup by any means, with a 150pt hq. Very interested to see it in action, will go take a peak, thanks!
I watched the battle report last night and the biggest lesson learned was to stay at range, shoot, and the fly keyword is important to avoid tri tip. Also, does anyone know what ability did the Chaos player utilize to keep the Craftworld unit locked in close combat?
If its the spears unit you mean then I think theyre talking about wrap and trap, a good writeup is detailed below midway through the article . Nick mentions its a big disincentive to drop down his guardian blob.There's also some "conga lining" from the chaos player which is another creative use of the as written rules which we might see addressed in the next addition.
I watched another of their reports with a pretty similar list Vs world eaters. They aren't a great watch compared to something like tabletop tactics but they are more educational.
My list isn't massively different in principle, but I swap long range firepower for shining spears jumping out from behind a screen of avengers. Avenging strikes is interesting but I just don't have the points for bigger squads.
Barbachop wrote: If its the spears unit you mean then I think theyre talking about wrap and trap, a good writeup is detailed below midway through the article . Nick mentions its a big disincentive to drop down his guardian blob.There's also some "conga lining" from the chaos player which is another creative use of the as written rules which we might see addressed in the next addition.
I didn't appreciate the Epitome/fly interaction so that was a useful spot too thanks.
I prefer Kingheff's list for an all comers list. Hunters is a cool trait but I feel its a little wasted on DAs even if they are hugging objectives, so if I were to take it Itd be on a spears only detachment. Im trying to order support weapons in the UK but theres not a whiff of them anywhere, so please let me know if anyone sees them for sale somewhere!
I fought mono slaanesh demons recently so I can speak from bitter experience! That was the game that convinced me I needed more screening, wow those things are fast! When you've got shalaxi, three keepers and flying demon princes charging at you if you can't put roadblocks in the way they will just chew through anything without an invulnerable save (like almost all of our codex, for example.)
Ambush of blades is actually fairly interesting with hunters and avenging strikes. They're not going to bully intercessors but they could hold their own which is quite an improvement and they should do well against most non specialist melee infantry.
If you're going down that path, storm guardians win imo. Hunters gives them 3 base attacks, and it's much easier to proc with a 24-elf unit.
Enhance/peerless disdain gives you lots of rending attacks. A blob with enhance, ambush of blades, hunters, disdain and an autarch can expect to put out 48 -1 hits and a stack of them with no rend too.
They still have 24 shuriken shots at 12", which a lot of people forget about when evaluating the unit. 1cp gives them 4++.
Back when I used to run Alaitoc I loved running them, I may give 2 blobs a go some time on TTS...
I was thinking more about ways to improve a avenging strikes type list, i was thinking about maybe dropping a spinner and bulking out some of my avengers and it got me thinking.
I did have a whole spiel typed out to go with this list but it's something you'll probably never be able to field outside of TTS so I didn't post it... but seeing as you brought it up...
Guardian spam topped by Alaitoc cheese! Obviously a bit of a silly list but one that would actually be pretty tough for a lot of armies to deal with.
I do have fourty something stormies painted up but mine are very much a fun modelling project and wield dark eldar and even harlequin weapons on top of a mix of various normal SG weapons, aspect warrior weapons and rogue trader era space elf pirates wielding things like power fists and melta guns with chainsword bayonettes. Safe to say they're far from tournament legal!
Sound sweet though! My stormies are guardians kitbashed with AoS shadow warriors, in purple and green. They take an age to put together, not sure I could handle another 48!
kingheff wrote: I was thinking more about ways to improve a avenging strikes type list, i was thinking about maybe dropping a spinner and bulking out some of my avengers and it got me thinking.
I did have a whole spiel typed out to go with this list but it's something you'll probably never be able to field outside of TTS so I didn't post it... but seeing as you brought it up...
Wierdly enough I think if you kept 2 in the web way and then just kept dropping them in you'd always hold all of the objectives.
Id stick fusion in each of those though for extra FU factor
I'm sure I wouldn't be able to pilot it even semi effectively! After watching the guy snaking his blob of fourty cultists around half the board I'd hate to have to do the same with six blobs of 24!
I like the cinema of an epic battle raging with AOK and seer council wading through as portals open and legions of ranked guardians march out! Its mad and doesnt make any sense from a fluff perspective but would be epic!
kingheff wrote: It's very world war one, giving them a pointy stick and telling them to walk in rows towards the enemy, death korps of khaine!
It was more position war such as the battle of Verdun (1916).
See: Vorschrift D 102, Die Infanterie im Stellungskrieg, 1937.
MEQ armies can fight a war of attrition, but not Aeldari armies in the first place.
We have a lighter armour. It is often said ''speed is their armour''.
Protect and celestial shield strat on a blob of 24 gives them a 3++. Combined with Alaitoc and you can have a fearless unit that tanks shots way better than a maximum unit of intercessors.
The trouble is scaling up from more than 1 unit - I think 2 or 3 squads of 24 is probably the sweet spot - one hiding in a building, one in the webway, one getting buffed on the table. Turn 2 and 3, you can leverage them more effectively as your opponent's remaining firepower can no longer deal with that many models.
Finally, Aggressors and Assauly Cents are everywhere, and they are the natural predator of that kind of list.
This was never meant to be a particularly serious list but I think the crimson hunters would do pretty good work against things like centurions or aggressors leaving the wall of guardians to clog up the battlefield! The pistols with the point of ap are pretty nice on top of the three attacks though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll bring them up here because I don't know if everyone looks at the army list section.
Dark reaper exarchs with the tempest launcher and the focused fire exarch power turning them into snipers at less than 18" range.
They just don't fit in my list, what with it focusing on 48" range units hugging the back of the board, but I think they have real potential.
Firstly, they're really good at killing characters, even those with invulnerable saves due to weight of fire.
Secondly they put a nice big no man's land of 24" where no character can safely sit without risk of being sniped.
Thirdly, they're dark reaper exarchs with a tempest launcher, even if there aren't any characters to kill they'll quite happily kill infantry very nicely!
Mechanicaly can the Avatar of ynnead appear in T1 if soemthing dies or is e restricted to T2 because hes not a space marine ?
The concept is built around MSU long range firepower but with a verry mean punch in CC.
I would play this with keeping the command wave serpent in orbit while moving all the heavy CC bodies up the board and layering objective holding between storm guardians, shadow specters and vypers.
The shadow respecters are mainly there coz they are cool... An argument could be made for two/3 squads of banshees.
Also could slot out the avatar for yvraine and ass a skyrunner autarch plus more DA.
Ive seen the Eldar Slanesh Deamon Pri- I mean the avatar of ynnead on TTT doing some incredible work and I like his teleporting ability and think hes an incredibly strong unit.
Looks like a fun list, I wonder if the star cannons might be slowing down the seers. Depends on how choppy you want them to be I guess. Shuriken cannon would allow fire and fade on top of a max advance to really jump one forward up to 21" I think.
I'm not sure about putting the serpent in the sky though, that means the earliest you can get them in the game is turn three, it could be useful but it's a long time to wait for them.
I think the avatar can just start on the board now so there's no need to deepstrike it plus he gives the seers a 6+++ so probably worth sticking it next to them until it starts jumping around.
Not a tactical post but GW announced today that theyre putting up the prices on the following eldar kits and I thought this was the best place to put the info.
Hemlocks
Crimson Hunters
Guardians
War Walkers
Warlock/Farseer Skyrunner
Eldrad
Farseer on foot
Dark reapers
Might be time to order some if you intend on growing your collections in any of those directions in the near future
wuestenfux wrote: Well, the list has too less omph, too less options to combat the enemy at all threat ranges.
Storm Guardians are meh - hands down.
How do you figure?
Plenty star cannons, pulse lasers for long range combat. Very high mobility with flyers (part from.wraithseers, but these are anchor units holding middle of the board and bullet sponges)
Then you got smites/psychoc for mid range and lots of shuriken for clpse range base ap -1.
Barbachop wrote: Not a tactical post but GW announced today that theyre putting up the prices on the following eldar kits and I thought this was the best place to put the info.
Hemlocks
Crimson Hunters
Guardians
War Walkers
Warlock/Farseer Skyrunner
Eldrad
Farseer on foot
Dark reapers
Might be time to order some if you intend on growing your collections in any of those directions in the near future
Barbachop wrote: Not a tactical post but GW announced today that theyre putting up the prices on the following eldar kits and I thought this was the best place to put the info.
Hemlocks
Crimson Hunters
Guardians
War Walkers
Warlock/Farseer Skyrunner
Eldrad
Farseer on foot
Dark reapers
Might be time to order some if you intend on growing your collections in any of those directions in the near future
Couldn't say for sure if they went up recently, but theyre available at non gw retailers for under £40 in the UK. Thirty pounds for fine cast DR is pretty woeful. I had an awful time with the first few I put together, though I managed to avoid the meltdown I had dealing with my Ranger's squinty rifle syndrome . Price increases on our datacards which most likely have a lifespan of inside a year is a bit hopeful on their part. For me war walkers and more reapers were on the to do list so that's most likely where I'll look to save a little cash
Mechanicaly can the Avatar of ynnead appear in T1 if soemthing dies or is e restricted to T2 because hes not a space marine ?
The concept is built around MSU long range firepower but with a verry mean punch in CC.
I would play this with keeping the command wave serpent in orbit while moving all the heavy CC bodies up the board and layering objective holding between storm guardians, shadow specters and vypers.
The shadow respecters are mainly there coz they are cool... An argument could be made for two/3 squads of banshees.
Also could slot out the avatar for yvraine and ass a skyrunner autarch plus more DA.
Ive seen the Eldar Slanesh Deamon Pri- I mean the avatar of ynnead on TTT doing some incredible work and I like his teleporting ability and think hes an incredibly strong unit.
I am not sure about Yncarne coming down on turn one in Matched Play (I don't think it can, but not 100%). However, it has under 10 wounds and harder to target and can teleport while on the board on turn one.
I ran into a recent issue with a list like this at an ITC event (which got cancelled due to Corona). The organizer would not allow me to field the Bonesinger as it was listed as a Legends model. Kinda sucked, but you may want to consider this.
The Ynarri detachment is pretty cool. The Yncarne takes some getting used to, but this brick of a detachment can go right into midfield.
Why Mind War? I may be missing something, but I don't see anything in the list that lowers leadership (Hemlock, Horrify, various Harlequin things). I've sniped characters with Mind War, but I'd recommend only picking this power when you can layer leadership modifiers on a model.
Ignore if you don't play ITC, but three Nightspinners may be a better fit than Falcons. Need something that circumvents line of sight.
I think this army has a lot of tools in an ITC format, but would likely be susceptible to Butcher's Bill and/or vehicles being stripped of wounds ( I forget the name of that secondary). I like the concept quite a bit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Question: Can more tan one detachment become a Wraithost Detachment? It appears like I can, but would like to double check. It appears I can based upon the Strategic Discipline rule for Matched Play.
Hi, i will patricipate on a tag team tournament. 500p each player. My team partner will be random.
I thought about using the following list. Shall i use d - scythe over the cannons Or use wraithblades instead of wraithguards?
I have a general tactics question- How do I, as an Eldar player, deal with tanks and things like Knights? Which units are effective in removing them? I'm stumped in how to handle a list like a 3 Knight list in a normal 2000 point event. I'd prefer to keep my army pure Eldar but if there are no good alternatives I would look at Dark Eldar and Harlies.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I have a general tactics question- How do I, as an Eldar player, deal with tanks and things like Knights? Which units are effective in removing them? I'm stumped in how to handle a list like a 3 Knight list in a normal 2000 point event. I'd prefer to keep my army pure Eldar but if there are no good alternatives I would look at Dark Eldar and Harlies.
Thanks for any info/tips.
Doom and jinx are pretty key to doing it efficiently. After that you can use any heavier firepower or strong melee options you have available to be honest.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I have a general tactics question- How do I, as an Eldar player, deal with tanks and things like Knights? Which units are effective in removing them? I'm stumped in how to handle a list like a 3 Knight list in a normal 2000 point event. I'd prefer to keep my army pure Eldar but if there are no good alternatives I would look at Dark Eldar and Harlies.
Thanks for any info/tips.
You have a lot of specialised troops to deal with tanks and armour. Dark Reapers, Fire Prisms, support weapons and Fire Dragons all melt armoured, multi wound models. Right now people are taking large collections of Vibro cannons (6 or more) using the custom craftworld traits of expert crafters as sustained fire against heavily armoured units from these guys is especially effective. It's worth noting that because they count as individual units you can reroll one hit and wound for each gun, and as they increase effectiveness over a turn even though they're only S7 they will have little trouble wounding high toughness bad guys. All that is ignoring cover due to the use of expert crafters and masterful shots. You can also used the link fire strategem on three fire prisms to utilise the power of all three, while only exposing one to line of sight. Lastly eldar are all about synergy and force multipliers, so the use of Doom to reroll wounds and Jinx to lower enemy armour saves enables you to choose one enemy unit a turn you really want to see vaporised, and bring your combined power to bear. Knights don't really have a counter to your psychic prowess, and that's an area Eldar are really strong in.
You may find the article below helpful as it outlines the strengths of our individual units, and where they excel. There's also good articles on Goonhammer about force composition, so you could seek more guidance there.
rhazag wrote: Hi, i will patricipate on a tag team tournament. 500p each player. My team partner will be random.
I thought about using the following list. Shall i use d - scythe over the cannons Or use wraithblades instead of wraithguards?
I haven't experience with using wraithguards but I'd say at the very least you could squeeze in two more guardians to come up to the 500 point limit. When you player larger games a 20 strong guardian unit is a solid choice so it's worth investing in another box if you only currently have one (especially as they're going up in price next week.)
Alternatively you could shave some points off of your wave serpent, as the engines upgrade isn't that worthwhile (you're still going to get where you're going, and your wraiths can't disembark on turn one anyway) If you went with a vanilla scatter laser serpent at 133 points you could include a unit of rangers in addition to everything else you have. At 500 points not a lot else is going to be able to deploy in the enemy's board half, hold an objective and plink away at enemy characters with mortal wounds like they can for a mere 50 points.
Barbachop wrote: You have a lot of specialised troops to deal with tanks and armour. Dark Reapers, Fire Prisms, support weapons and Fire Dragons all melt armoured, multi wound models. Right now people are taking large collections of Vibro cannons (6 or more) using the custom craftworld traits of expert crafters as sustained fire against heavily armoured units from these guys is especially effective. It's worth noting that because they count as individual units you can reroll one hit and wound for each gun, and as they increase effectiveness over a turn even though they're only S7 they will have little trouble wounding high toughness bad guys. All that is ignoring cover due to the use of expert crafters and masterful shots. You can also used the link fire strategem on three fire prisms to utilise the power of all three, while only exposing one to line of sight. Lastly eldar are all about synergy and force multipliers, so the use of Doom to reroll wounds and Jinx to lower enemy armour saves enables you to choose one enemy unit a turn you really want to see vaporised, and bring your combined power to bear. Knights don't really have a counter to your psychic prowess, and that's an area Eldar are really strong in.
You may find the article below helpful as it outlines the strengths of our individual units, and where they excel. There's also good articles on Goonhammer about force composition, so you could seek more guidance there.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Thanks for the link to the article. It's a lot to read but it seems very well written and informative.
Yeah, it's something you can take as reference, don't feel the need to absorb it in one sitting. It's there when you're on battlescribe and putting together a list.
2players team.
First tournament of the campaign 1000p each side (2p a500p)
Second tournament 1000p a player
Last tournament 1500 a player
For small pt games the Lanchester square law comes in - if you double the armour (tanks), the enemy has to four-fold the anti-armour.
With this in mind, I'd consider Serpents or Falcons in the first place.
Mechanicaly can the Avatar of ynnead appear in T1 if soemthing dies or is e restricted to T2 because hes not a space marine ?
The concept is built around MSU long range firepower but with a verry mean punch in CC.
I would play this with keeping the command wave serpent in orbit while moving all the heavy CC bodies up the board and layering objective holding between storm guardians, shadow specters and vypers.
The shadow respecters are mainly there coz they are cool... An argument could be made for two/3 squads of banshees.
Also could slot out the avatar for yvraine and ass a skyrunner autarch plus more DA.
Ive seen the Eldar Slanesh Deamon Pri- I mean the avatar of ynnead on TTT doing some incredible work and I like his teleporting ability and think hes an incredibly strong unit.
Another question. Why take the Prism Blaster on the Shadow Spectre Exarch? To me, the weapon does not appear to mesh well with Prism Rifles. I do like the Shadow Spectres as Elite choices. After reviewing your list idea, I'm actually mulling over trying to run a Brigade and Supreme Command at an event next weekend. Mine is a bit different as Ill be using Wraithblades and the Wraith Host Detachment. Have you ever run a Brigade with Craftworld?
Mechanicaly can the Avatar of ynnead appear in T1 if soemthing dies or is e restricted to T2 because hes not a space marine ?
The concept is built around MSU long range firepower but with a verry mean punch in CC.
I would play this with keeping the command wave serpent in orbit while moving all the heavy CC bodies up the board and layering objective holding between storm guardians, shadow specters and vypers.
The shadow respecters are mainly there coz they are cool... An argument could be made for two/3 squads of banshees.
Also could slot out the avatar for yvraine and ass a skyrunner autarch plus more DA.
Ive seen the Eldar Slanesh Deamon Pri- I mean the avatar of ynnead on TTT doing some incredible work and I like his teleporting ability and think hes an incredibly strong unit.
Another question. Why take the Prism Blaster on the Shadow Spectre Exarch? To me, the weapon does not appear to mesh well with Prism Rifles. I do like the Shadow Spectres as Elite choices. After reviewing your list idea, I'm actually mulling over trying to run a Brigade and Supreme Command at an event next weekend. Mine is a bit different as Ill be using Wraithblades and the Wraith Host Detachment. Have you ever run a Brigade with Craftworld?
The prism blaster goes really well with expert crafters. It is a -2 d3 dmg weapon, that potentialy pumps out 3 shots. I have used alitoic specters blob of 6-7 and withguide or even autarch they rule. The blaster realy done great work for me. Even with that profile its still an assult weapon. Great for going after mid tier units. The two buddies can do the flamer or help. I find with the specters move they van mostly get on target with the flamers to kill chaff and the blaster can go to work on tougher units like primaris or Other hard to kill stuff.
FWIW, they just let slip that modifiers in 9th are capped at +1/-1.
A 6 will also always hit no matter what (not that it'll matter so much any more with modifiers capped).
This is going to have pretty huge implications for aeldari. Flyer spam was already falling out of favor, but it's surely dead now. And spectres are a lot less attractive if you can't stack - to hit on them too.
Does that mean we get back our offensive spells like Eldritch Storm?
What is this referring to exactly?
Guess to something they said in Q&A on twitch regarding 9th ed rules. Missed that one myself. Too much stuff coming and in too fast pace. Lagging connection not making things.
Tanks and monsters shooting out of melee, faling back out of combat you can be struct by enemy via stratagem. And that modifier cap is going to be big for eldar(though IMO makes better for game with less frustrating binary action. If this hurts eldar hopefully the point revisit that's likely to acomplish 9th ed on launch compensates)
Ouch.. so for the forseeable future the re-roll everything aura meta crap is here to stay with even less to mitigate it... The cap certainly hurts us the most i think.
Not trying to be all doom and gloom but certainly concerned. Mostly because the opening of the stream was on about how they have a new idea every 60 seconds and this edition is full of new and exciting ideas.. This rarely bodes well coming out of GW mouth.
As things currently stand the one use for banshees is now null and void if they cant tag big stuff.
I think im likely to take a break from playing and concentrate on panting and modelling while things settle and hopefully we get a new book sooner rather than later.
However exciting times ahead.
Does anyone have a link where I could watch the whole stream? I missed huge chunks of it.
I've reposted a synopssis curated by reddit user Chaoticflanagan for any who dont follow the 40k subreddit which can be found here
Overall a mixed bag for us, the main changes seem to be more terrain rule introductions and CP normalisation. I think more interactivity with terrain is a win for the hobby as a whole, and ITC ground floor rules benefits us squishy elven types, however the return of blast plates make my guardian blob and max Dark Reaper squads tremble a little.
Stream summary:
A lot more obscuring terrain - no more drawing LoS through 3 windows.
Much more fun to play with terrain; the terrain will have a fun impact on the game. The battlefield itslelf will become the 3rd player of the game. Not just layering of extra complexities - it's clean and simple but with maximum impact. Most obvious is giving a piece of terrain the "obscuring" tag which blocks line of sight. Different degrees of cover, can go up it, can pass through it, etc. Wanted woods to be different than buildings, then craters, then swamps.
Fixed interactions where a monster can't reach you on the 2nd story because you blocked out the floor. Fixed a lot of the "gamey aspects" of terrain.
Properties will be applied to terrain at the start of the game
More guidelines on how much terrain is on the table
Changes to overwatch and changes to penalties for leaving close combat (mostly through strategems)
Core turn mechanics - remaining the same as 8th
Can spend CP to put units into reserve. You command points are used to do things your general would do as well. Can promote units. Reserve - come in on your board edge, or table edges. Keep things off the board until you want to use them. Gives a boost to melee armies.
Anything Tanks can do Monsters can do if not better.
More balanced missions.
Is random number of shots still a thing? Yes.
Pretty soon after the release of 9th, you'll see Deathwatch reworking.
40k rules team is now making the rules for ALL models - so no more seperate ForgeWorld rules team.
Vigilus books will still be used
Where will i get rules for the new space marines and necrons? In the boxes and future codices.
They are working on new codices.
can i always hit on 6s? Everyone can now hit on 6s.
Missions written with game size in mind. 500pt missions vs 2000pt missions vs 4000pt missions.
Core Rules are a bit longer (8 pages in 8th), some of that is due to expanding the rules and also because there are more examples. Tried to make the rules more concise. A bit longer but still pretty tight. Has a rules appendix - things that happen very rarely and are odd interactions. Put them in an appendix so they aren't in the core rules.
Capped modifiers; never better than +1 or -1.
Changed how flyers interact in the game. Can leave the board, not interact in the same way that infantry and vehicles on the battlefield. Shouldn't be any more gamey things you can do with them. More fun to use and less annoying against them.
Any changes to how moral works? yes. Nothing drastic - introduced 'combat attrition'; and more things that interact with morale. And armies that had morale mechanics are more powerful.
More units added to warhammer legends? Over time, almost certainly. But it will be gradual. No plans for carving great chunks out of codices.
How will command points work? Some armies have easy access to them and others didn't, they wanted to level the playing field. The command point totals are now linked to the size of the battle. Both armies will start with the same amount.
Power levels will be realigned regularly like match points are.
Mortal wounds mechanic? Unchanged.
Will soup still be viable? Yes. But if you want to take cool stuff from 2 codices, you're spending CPs to bring those pieces. Gives Narrative players more CPs to spend and gives competitive players more options for resource management and list tinkering.
Will future codices absorb some of the rules from Psychic Awakening and Vigilus? The new codices will take all the cool stuff from supplements and incorporate them. Not every stratagem may make the cut.
With the changes to Command points, will i still need to include troops in my army? In the same way you do now i guess, but you'll have more flexibility. You don't have to do anything. Right now, you're trying to maximize command points by unlocking as many battalions as possible. But you're not doing that now. Hopefully will see people bringing the models they want to take and not what they feel like they have to take.
What defines a blast weapon and what defines a horde? An appendix will denote a blast weapon. Codices will denote the blast type going forward. (They didn't answer what denotes a horde)
What's your favorite thing about the new addition? Stu: 2 things - 1 is terrain and excited about how terrain impacts a game. The other is the crusade content - those who have a slightly more narative lean for gaming. A method and tool box for telling cool stories over time. Pete: Encouraged by the balanced missions and being on the cutting edge of competitive wargamming and changes to command points to improve flexibility.
The cap at -1 would be strange if they kept the full reroll ability. I wish it had never morphed from the original concept as it kept rerolls at a more reasonable level. It's the one mechanic the used to be nearly an Eldar exclusive (Guide) to where other armies get it easier and in greater capacity (Marines).
Its very early days, but having listened to the preview and the QA at least by the sounds of it we wont have to sink 100's of pts into squishy near pointless troops...
Sort of sad as ive invested into plenty of guardians and rangers but at the same time glad I wont have to paint them all now lol.
Argive wrote: Its very early days, but having listened to the preview and the QA at least by the sounds of it we wont have to sink 100's of pts into squishy near pointless troops...
Sort of sad as ive invested into plenty of guardians and rangers but at the same time glad I wont have to paint them all now lol.
The age of the wraith has come! I hope.
Keep in mind if you forego cheap troops you will struggle with board control and reserve denial which seems to become more essential. You will have even more stuff appearing out of nowhere near your army. Wraiths are less than stellar if they get anti-wraith units within 9" shooting and charging before you get to do anything about them.
Argive wrote: Its very early days, but having listened to the preview and the QA at least by the sounds of it we wont have to sink 100's of pts into squishy near pointless troops...
Sort of sad as ive invested into plenty of guardians and rangers but at the same time glad I wont have to paint them all now lol.
The age of the wraith has come! I hope.
Keep in mind if you forego cheap troops you will struggle with board control and reserve denial which seems to become more essential. You will have even more stuff appearing out of nowhere near your army. Wraiths are less than stellar if they get anti-wraith units within 9" shooting and charging before you get to do anything about them.
I get it. It will depend on exactly how this new CP generations work. If a battalion will be the standard free detachment then nothing really changes but at least we dont have to have a second battalion.
However, If I can just have bikes (bikes everywhere) instead...
We also don't know if the detachment structure will remain the same. For all we know you might have to have a troops choice in every type of detachment now as mandatory to get around this.
They did seem to insinuate that the idea that you have to take some things (I.e. a double battalion) to generate CP is going away. So the only incentive seems to be for actual board control/obsec which sounds like what it should be. So i can bring one or two troops units if I choose to but can easily have a wraith army if I don't for example.
Very curious how it all pans out. It would not be the first time people at GW say one thing and then it turns out being something entirely different.
Was hoping for one more yera in thsi edition tbf... But I cant wait for the rules now. The silliness commences.
I will finally get the chance to play this weekend at a small ITC 3 round tourney. Now that 9th is announced, it further cemented me trying to run a non soup list. I still have 2 separate Craftworlds, technically, but it is easier for me as opposed to adding Harlequins and/Drukhari to the mix.
It is completely untested, but the army is nearly done (Vypers - still painting). Not expecting a lot, but I like the direction of the concept. List has been submitted, so changes to the list will likely not happen, but I will get into another event in June and would welcome feedback. If it is not obvious, I will spend one CP for the Windrider Host.
GW has absolutely no interest in creating an edition where nobody buys troops, especially right as they are raising prices on most of them. So I think you will see troops either coming down in cost significantly or going up in their worth in other ways, now that you don't de facto have to take them for CP generation. (And I am actually a huge fan of troops, especially aeldari troops, and I don't take them only or even mostly for CP generation.)
Leo_the_Rat wrote: @Sarigar- why take Saim Hann for your battalion? Why not give it the same abilities as your spearhead?
It is primarily because how they are painted. I've essentially own two Craftworld armies; one painted Iyanden and the other painted Saim Hann. The models in the Battalion and Outrider are painted Saim Hann. The Iyanden painted Spearhead detachment will utilize the custom Craftworld traits.
Sarigar wrote: I will finally get the chance to play this weekend at a small ITC 3 round tourney. Now that 9th is announced, it further cemented me trying to run a non soup list. I still have 2 separate Craftworlds, technically, but it is easier for me as opposed to adding Harlequins and/Drukhari to the mix.
It is completely untested, but the army is nearly done (Vypers - still painting). Not expecting a lot, but I like the direction of the concept. List has been submitted, so changes to the list will likely not happen, but I will get into another event in June and would welcome feedback. If it is not obvious, I will spend one CP for the Windrider Host.
CRAFTWORLD:
Battalion, Outrider - Saim Hann
Spearhead - Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots
COMMAND POINTS:10
WARLORD: Autarch Skyrunner
2000 points.
Looks good, plenty of guns and manoeuvrability with saim Han, their bikes are easy to underestimate. Between the scatter lasers and star cannons they should be able to put in good work. I still remain unconvinced on nightspinners, too much swinginess in both shots and anti armour. Sometimes they're amazing, sometimes they whiff hard. But I'm very interested to see how you get on.
yukishiro1 wrote: GW has absolutely no interest in creating an edition where nobody buys troops, especially right as they are raising prices on most of them. So I think you will see troops either coming down in cost significantly or going up in their worth in other ways, now that you don't de facto have to take them for CP generation. (And I am actually a huge fan of troops, especially aeldari troops, and I don't take them only or even mostly for CP generation.)
My guess is it will involve missions and the board control. More and more stuff jumping out reserves will naturally increase value of cheap troops to push reserves. If missions come more objective based rather than killing that also helps.
Points are hard to come down due to floor coming on ground...are we soon at 1 pts gretchins? Well unless they do the sensible thing and start adjusting points by like DOUBLING everything including game size. So rather than 4 pts IG trooper and 2k as default we have 7 pts troopers and 4k as standard.
(that should be done just to give more granularity. The cheap stuff area is pretty damn cramped now)
Sarigar wrote: I will finally get the chance to play this weekend at a small ITC 3 round tourney. Now that 9th is announced, it further cemented me trying to run a non soup list. I still have 2 separate Craftworlds, technically, but it is easier for me as opposed to adding Harlequins and/Drukhari to the mix.
It is completely untested, but the army is nearly done (Vypers - still painting). Not expecting a lot, but I like the direction of the concept. List has been submitted, so changes to the list will likely not happen, but I will get into another event in June and would welcome feedback. If it is not obvious, I will spend one CP for the Windrider Host.
CRAFTWORLD:
Battalion, Outrider - Saim Hann
Spearhead - Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots
COMMAND POINTS:10
WARLORD: Autarch Skyrunner
2000 points.
Looks good, plenty of guns and manoeuvrability with saim Han, their bikes are easy to underestimate. Between the scatter lasers and star cannons they should be able to put in good work. I still remain unconvinced on nightspinners, too much swinginess in both shots and anti armour. Sometimes they're amazing, sometimes they whiff hard. But I'm very interested to see how you get on.
I am not a big fan of the random shot mechanic, but I've had reasonable success with running three in ITC, where there is more Los blocking on the tables I've played on. I've added the Autarch tommadd further efficiency in a way to help offset the swinginess of random shots during a game.
Well, as a long-term Eldar player I know that for Eldar the move from one edition to the next one was never a big issue.
Eldar did very well in all editions so far.
The point is that Eldar has enough variability to react to each rule change.
The meta will shift and so the emphasis what units to take and how to configure a competitive list.
Sarigar wrote: I will finally get the chance to play this weekend at a small ITC 3 round tourney. Now that 9th is announced, it further cemented me trying to run a non soup list. I still have 2 separate Craftworlds, technically, but it is easier for me as opposed to adding Harlequins and/Drukhari to the mix.
It is completely untested, but the army is nearly done (Vypers - still painting). Not expecting a lot, but I like the direction of the concept. List has been submitted, so changes to the list will likely not happen, but I will get into another event in June and would welcome feedback. If it is not obvious, I will spend one CP for the Windrider Host.
CRAFTWORLD:
Battalion, Outrider - Saim Hann
Spearhead - Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots
COMMAND POINTS:10
WARLORD: Autarch Skyrunner
2000 points.
Looks good, plenty of guns and manoeuvrability with saim Han, their bikes are easy to underestimate. Between the scatter lasers and star cannons they should be able to put in good work. I still remain unconvinced on nightspinners, too much swinginess in both shots and anti armour. Sometimes they're amazing, sometimes they whiff hard. But I'm very interested to see how you get on.
I am not a big fan of the random shot mechanic, but I've had reasonable success with running three in ITC, where there is more Los blocking on the tables I've played on. I've added the Autarch tommadd further efficiency in a way to help offset the swinginess of random shots during a game.
I've been running three on TTS recently, the out of line of sight shooting is very useful but I still find them a bit annoying! Sometimes they roll hot and they're absolutely amazing, sometimes when you really need them to perform you roll average to low shots and barely get a six to wound and not much happens at all! I figure they'll get the blast treatment in ninth and then they should be much better.
Not an Eldar player but Eldar is my primary opponent and all I will say is that Nightspinners are an absolute nightmare for me. If I had a similarly priced unit in my toolbox I would take three every time
slave.entity wrote: Scatterbikes and vypers. I like it. Seems very fragile compared to the eldar lists I'm used to but the army wide 36+" range should help with that.
Well, in the edition it appears that units could arrive at board edges making the range argument an issue.
They can't unless they nerf the stupid EC/MS combo, which makes it effectively impossible to buff single-entity eldar stuff without overpowering them. Without EC/MS they're not very good, with it they're borderline overpowered, like all eldar single entities since the PA book.
EC/MS is a cancer on eldar build diversity and until they bit the bullet and admit it was a mistake it will continue to hamstring what they can do with the faction. Craftworld Eldar have become the chosen faction of the "just roll dice and win" crowd after the nerfs to imperial fists, and that's not a good place for your faction to be. Especially given how historically eldar have been a high skill cap, tricksy faction, not a brute force faction.
I've added 3 wraithlords with two shuriken cannons and a couple of wraithseers with wraithcannon to my list and it's worked out great so far. Swapping out static firepower like nightspinners for tanky wraiths charging out in midfield and either intercepting incoming threats or hitting their backfield units has proved invaluable. I found the purely shooting lists had big problems with fast melee/deepstriking units. The big wraiths are dirt cheap for T8 wounds and give the army real backbone. Still using expert crafters and masterful shots with vibro cannons and vypers with the missile launchers for long range firepower but shuriken like ignoring cover a lot too and expert crafters is great for melee with four attacks.
Fast melee has been the big challenge with my heavy shooting lists. Deep strike was somewhat rectified by using 2-3 Hornets in a unit and Forewarned. I've wanted to use the Wraithknight as the counter assault element, but just not quite efficient enough. 500 points of Wraithlords/Wraithseers seems very interesting. That is a detachment of its own. Would you consider Expert Crafters and Wrath of the Dead if they were their own detachment?
I’m playing with an Ulthwe offshoot list (a strike force that has sort of decided to go it along, occasionally helping their craftworld but otherwise pursuing its agenda).
Still going guardian and support weapon heavy, am I crazy going with Hail of Doom and Martial Citizenry? I know I can swap MS for Expert Crafters and am on the fence about that but it’s really nice to have the guardian blobs have some real bite.
Sarigar wrote: Fast melee has been the big challenge with my heavy shooting lists. Deep strike was somewhat rectified by using 2-3 Hornets in a unit and Forewarned. I've wanted to use the Wraithknight as the counter assault element, but just not quite efficient enough. 500 points of Wraithlords/Wraithseers seems very interesting. That is a detachment of its own. Would you consider Expert Crafters and Wrath of the Dead if they were their own detachment?
I was hamstrung by a double battalion and I wanted to keep mono craftworld but I think wrath of the dead could definitely work. I also like the wraithseer ynarri cheese but I would have to make too many comprises to fit that in. I am using both vigilus detachments however which is fun.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bhazakhain wrote: I’m playing with an Ulthwe offshoot list (a strike force that has sort of decided to go it along, occasionally helping their craftworld but otherwise pursuing its agenda).
Still going guardian and support weapon heavy, am I crazy going with Hail of Doom and Martial Citizenry? I know I can swap MS for Expert Crafters and am on the fence about that but it’s really nice to have the guardian blobs have some real bite.
I think masterful shots and superior shurikens are probably the best bet for guardians. Foot autarch's are cheap enough to get the reroll ones. Expert crafters is pretty amazing with vibro cannons though if you are using them...
Bhazakhain wrote: I’m playing with an Ulthwe offshoot list (a strike force that has sort of decided to go it along, occasionally helping their craftworld but otherwise pursuing its agenda).
Still going guardian and support weapon heavy, am I crazy going with Hail of Doom and Martial Citizenry? I know I can swap MS for Expert Crafters and am on the fence about that but it’s really nice to have the guardian blobs have some real bite.
Whilst its too warm to do sums I suspect Crafters and Citizens will be more consistent but its a three scoop problem and im out of ice cream
A part of me is debating Expert Crafters and Wrath of the Dead in a detachment.
Support Weapon Batteries have the Guardian keyword and Martial Citizenry would work, but I think Expert Crafters would be better for them while the Martial Citizenry would better suit the Guardian squads, but as stated, a cheap Autarch can provide that.
kingheff wrote: I think masterful shots and superior shurikens are probably the best bet for guardians. Foot autarch's are cheap enough to get the reroll ones. Expert crafters is pretty amazing with vibro cannons though if you are using them...
Out of curiosity, how would an extra 4” help Guardians? A Primaris would move 6” the following turn and be within rapid fire range, unless you’re factoring in Fire and Fade?
Sarigar wrote: Would you consider Expert Crafters and Wrath of the Dead if they were their own detachment?
This might be controversial but I think EC/Masters of concealment works great in my opinion. I run star cannon/2x star cannon/ star cannon/EML I don't think you even need wrath of the dead on top of EC.You can always doom in a pinch
I Use them as backline objective holders/long range support/flank screeners normaly with some DA.
30 2+ T8 wounds for 300pts is not to be laughed at and makes them much more survivable. .
Even if they move and shoot on 4+ with EC its still really acurate so if a situatio forces it they can march forward. The fists are decent for melee and the times I used to take swords are long gone
I meant that when we eventually get our new codex I want the Wraith lord/ Wraithknight to be really good in their own right. They are just nowhere near tough enough currently IMO and just don't have any rules... The masters of concealment 2+ save really makes a difference. Against -1/-2 weapons it helps a lot I found. Obviously if you coem up against people that ignore cover its worthless but a lot of people forgo that trait. The wraithseer just wants to be ynnari for the relics and traits. Its cheese... But ohh my god its fun cheese. The ynnari wraithseers is what a wraithseer/wraithlord should be IMO.
Turnip Jedi wrote: I think masterful shots and superior shurikens are probably the best bet for guardians. Foot autarch's are cheap enough to get the reroll ones. Expert crafters is pretty amazing with vibro cannons though if you are using them...
Out of curiosity, how would an extra 4” help Guardians? A Primaris would move 6” the following turn and be within rapid fire range, unless you’re factoring in Fire and Fade?
The extra 4" doesn't seem like that much, because it isn't, but it does give you a minimum 24" threat range which is actually quite useful. Personally I wouldn't run guardians in significant numbers anyway but that's another matter.
Sarigar wrote: Would you consider Expert Crafters and Wrath of the Dead if they were their own detachment?
This might be controversial but I think EC/Masters of concealment works great in my opinion. I run star cannon/2x star cannon/ star cannon/EML I don't think you even need wrath of the dead on top of EC.You can always doom in a pinch
I Use them as backline objective holders/long range support/flank screeners normaly with some DA.
30 2+ T8 wounds for 300pts is not to be laughed at and makes them much more survivable. .
Even if they move and shoot on 4+ with EC its still really acurate so if a situatio forces it they can march forward. The fists are decent for melee and the times I used to take swords are long gone
I meant that when we eventually get our new codex I want the Wraith lord/ Wraithknight to be really good in their own right. They are just nowhere near tough enough currently IMO and just don't have any rules...
The masters of concealment 2+ save really makes a difference. Against -1/-2 weapons it helps a lot I found. Obviously if you coem up against people that ignore cover its worthless but a lot of people forgo that trait.
The wraithseer just wants to be ynnari for the relics and traits. Its cheese... But ohh my god its fun cheese. The ynnari wraithseers is what a wraithseer/wraithlord should be IMO.
It's a bit more than 300 points, but your overall strategy explanation is solid. There are a lot of wounds at T8 and not something to try and assault. If you are using them as objective holders, Relic Hunters for the +1 attack could also be beneficial; a lot really depends on terrain, overall army composition, and what you typically would face off against. I like the idea and it's not something I see much of locally. Cool idea.
Sarigar wrote: Would you consider Expert Crafters and Wrath of the Dead if they were their own detachment?
This might be controversial but I think EC/Masters of concealment works great in my opinion. I run star cannon/2x star cannon/ star cannon/EML I don't think you even need wrath of the dead on top of EC.You can always doom in a pinch
I Use them as backline objective holders/long range support/flank screeners normaly with some DA.
30 2+ T8 wounds for 300pts is not to be laughed at and makes them much more survivable. .
Even if they move and shoot on 4+ with EC its still really acurate so if a situatio forces it they can march forward. The fists are decent for melee and the times I used to take swords are long gone
I meant that when we eventually get our new codex I want the Wraith lord/ Wraithknight to be really good in their own right. They are just nowhere near tough enough currently IMO and just don't have any rules... The masters of concealment 2+ save really makes a difference. Against -1/-2 weapons it helps a lot I found. Obviously if you come up against people that ignore cover its worthless but a lot of people forgo that trait. The wraithseer just wants to be ynnari for the relics and traits. Its cheese... But ohh my god its fun cheese. The ynnari wraithseers is what a wraithseer/wraithlord should be IMO.
It's a bit more than 300 points, but your overall strategy explanation is solid. There are a lot of wounds at T8 and not something to try and assault. If you are using them as objective holders, Relic Hunters for the +1 attack could also be beneficial; a lot really depends on terrain, overall army composition, and what you typically would face off against. I like the idea and it's not something I see much of locally. Cool idea.
I look at it that its like having prepared position every turn. They are a tough mean distraction carnifex. They keep dishing out damage at range but are very low value kill wise on their own me thinks and people hate shooting at them because they are only a 100pt model. With t8 and a 2+ that prospect becomes even more unfavourable.
I think relic hunters is too situational. I would rather make their detachment a wraith host and burn a cp or two to give them an additional attack if I really feel its needed but benefit from better save for a detachment. Tanks like the wave serpent with a spiirt stone really like the 2+ cover save too. For me its a toss up every game weather or not masters of concealment or masterful shots as both are valid. I think id go with wrath of the dead if the lords were sharing a detatchemnt with big blobs of wraithblades/wraithguard.
Hope I can just run my wraiths on their own in the new edition with only like one big unit of troops.
Concur about using Wraith models. I have 45 Wraithguard/Wraithblades alone. I'd love to be able to run that type of Craftworld army without feeling lime I have hamstrung myself.
kingheff wrote: I've added 3 wraithlords with two shuriken cannons and a couple of wraithseers with wraithcannon to my list and it's worked out great so far. Swapping out static firepower like nightspinners for tanky wraiths charging out in midfield and either intercepting incoming threats or hitting their backfield units has proved invaluable. I found the purely shooting lists had big problems with fast melee/deepstriking units. The big wraiths are dirt cheap for T8 wounds and give the army real backbone. Still using expert crafters and masterful shots with vibro cannons and vypers with the missile launchers for long range firepower but shuriken like ignoring cover a lot too and expert crafters is great for melee with four attacks.
Three Wraithlords and one Wraithseer is a poor kind of detachment.
These guys are meh, too slow and too less damage output.
They don't contribute to the kind of flow an Eldar army needs to function.
kingheff wrote: I've added 3 wraithlords with two shuriken cannons and a couple of wraithseers with wraithcannon to my list and it's worked out great so far. Swapping out static firepower like nightspinners for tanky wraiths charging out in midfield and either intercepting incoming threats or hitting their backfield units has proved invaluable. I found the purely shooting lists had big problems with fast melee/deepstriking units. The big wraiths are dirt cheap for T8 wounds and give the army real backbone. Still using expert crafters and masterful shots with vibro cannons and vypers with the missile launchers for long range firepower but shuriken like ignoring cover a lot too and expert crafters is great for melee with four attacks.
Three Wraithlords and one Wraithseer is a poor kind of detachment.
These guys are meh, too slow and too less damage output.
They don't contribute to the kind of flow an Eldar army needs to function.
Funnily enough one of the games they did really well in was against another craftworlds list with three nightspinners, three CHE, a couple of falcons and a max squad of spears with storm guardians and characters on bikes if I remember correctly. He had been doing very well in a TTS league with his list so I figured I would be in for a tough time.
He had first turn and pushed forward with his spears, Che's and falcons but failed quicken on his spears which left them in range of a counter charge from my wraiths which meant he had to divert quite a bit of firepower into the wraiths that he couldn't doom because we were playing cagey because of trying to avoid denies. He killed some stuff but not enough of the wraiths who stepped out and chopped up his spears before pushing on to threaten the midfield tanks before pushing on to take down his storm guardians with shuriken and pushing his spinners into the open where I could take them out. It was a very good and close game and the T8 wounds were what won me the game.
kingheff wrote: I've added 3 wraithlords with two shuriken cannons and a couple of wraithseers with wraithcannon to my list and it's worked out great so far. Swapping out static firepower like nightspinners for tanky wraiths charging out in midfield and either intercepting incoming threats or hitting their backfield units has proved invaluable. I found the purely shooting lists had big problems with fast melee/deepstriking units. The big wraiths are dirt cheap for T8 wounds and give the army real backbone. Still using expert crafters and masterful shots with vibro cannons and vypers with the missile launchers for long range firepower but shuriken like ignoring cover a lot too and expert crafters is great for melee with four attacks.
Three Wraithlords and one Wraithseer is a poor kind of detachment.
These guys are meh, too slow and too less damage output.
They don't contribute to the kind of flow an Eldar army needs to function.
I dont see how ? 2 star canon shots plys a Bl or 4 star cannon shots with master crafters is really good value. Its what the war walkers does but a lot tougher.
kingheff wrote: I've added 3 wraithlords with two shuriken cannons and a couple of wraithseers with wraithcannon to my list and it's worked out great so far. Swapping out static firepower like nightspinners for tanky wraiths charging out in midfield and either intercepting incoming threats or hitting their backfield units has proved invaluable. I found the purely shooting lists had big problems with fast melee/deepstriking units. The big wraiths are dirt cheap for T8 wounds and give the army real backbone. Still using expert crafters and masterful shots with vibro cannons and vypers with the missile launchers for long range firepower but shuriken like ignoring cover a lot too and expert crafters is great for melee with four attacks.
Three Wraithlords and one Wraithseer is a poor kind of detachment.
These guys are meh, too slow and too less damage output.
They don't contribute to the kind of flow an Eldar army needs to function.
Funnily enough one of the games they did really well in was against another craftworlds list with three nightspinners, three CHE, a couple of falcons and a max squad of spears with storm guardians and characters on bikes if I remember correctly. He had been doing very well in a TTS league with his list so I figured I would be in for a tough time.
He had first turn and pushed forward with his spears, Che's and falcons but failed quicken on his spears which left them in range of a counter charge from my wraiths which meant he had to divert quite a bit of firepower into the wraiths that he couldn't doom because we were playing cagey because of trying to avoid denies. He killed some stuff but not enough of the wraiths who stepped out and chopped up his spears before pushing on to threaten the midfield tanks before pushing on to take down his storm guardians with shuriken and pushing his spinners into the open where I could take them out. It was a very good and close game and the T8 wounds were what won me the game.
haha first time I tried my wraithseer ynnari and wraithlords I was up against spears spam and 3 prisms and spinenrs.
An entire prism trio wasnt able to bring down a ynnari wraith seer with lost shroud.. Just think about that.
According to mathhammer three linked fireprisms do a bit over four wounds to a lost shroud wraithseer, they're not quite brohammer leviathan tough but they're not far off!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I do wonder if the wraithseer may lose the character keyword in any updates, he does throw some relics/warlord trait stuff out of whack
Based on what's been revealed so far, maximizing CP in 9E means trying to squeeze your entire army into a single battalion detachment. Seems pretty OK for eldar since we have solid units in every category.
I'm thinking at the moment I'll still be building multiple detachments since I value the units I want more than CP. It all depends on the cost overall I guess.
slave.entity wrote: Based on what's been revealed so far, maximizing CP in 9E means trying to squeeze your entire army into a single battalion detachment. Seems pretty OK for eldar since we have solid units in every category.
We don't. Most slots want a different type of trait to be the most efficient. A banshee blob/wraithblade blob cares nothing for expert crafters a war walker or vibro cannon wants.
But it looks like a wraith battalion will be a thing for me so im not unhappy as such. Too early to tell but I've certainly been using multi trait and having to squeeze everything into one detachment might hurt.
If you get bonus CP to have a Patrol with Warlord in it, it may offset the cost of another detachment. Time will tell, but it's not a deal breaker for me.
Unfortunately, I think this just pushes CWE even harder towards EC/MS cheese builds - because while you can easily make a whole army that benefits from that combo, pretty much any other choice results in either a lot of units not getting anything from their craftworld traits, or paying CP through the nose for the privilege of being worse than just yielding to the cheese.
It does seem possible that discouraging soup will reduce overall build diversity, since players will be drawing from smaller pools of units when writing their lists.
It's a given that it'll reduce build diversity. Almost none of the 8th edition tournament lists work in 9th (unless the CP costs for other detachments are much lower than for bats). Ironically, broviathan - i.e. the worst list in 8th edition and the biggest embarrassment for GW - is the only major tournament-winning list that immediately comes to mind that does work. Well...and Eldar Mech Spam, and maybe Imperial Fists artillery spam.
Seeing a pattern here? The type of lists that are most boosted by 9th's changes are brute force lists that are built around just taking the most points-efficient units and spamming them, and the lists that are hosed most are intricate combo lists.
It seems like the result is likely to be a significant dumbing down of the game, which is a bummer.
Whether or not it will reduce build diversity depends on how bad the penalties are for souping, compared to the benefits. If there are good enough reasons to soup, people will pay the CP penalty to do it. We don't know enough about 9E to say for sure.
slave.entity wrote: Whether or not it will reduce build diversity depends on how bad the penalties are for souping, compared to the benefits. If there are good enough reasons to soup, people will pay the CP penalty to do it. We don't know enough about 9E to say for sure.
They added penalties for souping - well, technically just for taking multiple detachments, not even for souping per se. Even if those don't outweigh the benefits, unless they had new benefits for souping too, the result will be less souping than before, and therefore less diversity.
Given that they are on record as specifically saying the whole point was to make souping less advantageous...I think it is a pretty safe bet that that is what 9th will do.
In other words, even if some souping is still viable...it'll only be the stronger soup combinations. The ones that were interesting but not super powerful are the ones that are going to get cut when you raise the penalty for souping across the board. Leaving less diversity overall.
yukishiro1 wrote: It's a given that it'll reduce build diversity. Almost none of the 8th edition tournament lists work in 9th (unless the CP costs for other detachments are much lower than for bats). Ironically, broviathan - i.e. the worst list in 8th edition and the biggest embarrassment for GW - is the only major tournament-winning list that immediately comes to mind that does work. Well...and Eldar Mech Spam, and maybe Imperial Fists artillery spam.
Seeing a pattern here? The type of lists that are most boosted by 9th's changes are brute force lists that are built around just taking the most points-efficient units and spamming them, and the lists that are hosed most are intricate combo lists.
It seems like the result is likely to be a significant dumbing down of the game, which is a bummer.
I've not seen the pattern you describe. There appears to be an item mission related in the form of an action that has been hinted it. To claim an objective to garner VP, may require an action which would be instead of shooting. This could very well be a factor in army building; mech Eldar may not be quite as shooting intensive if units can't fire in order to hold an objective.
One thing Reece from FLG stated is that armies will be smaller than in 8th edition, which was a conscious decision in order to help make games go faster. Reece indicated their tourneys will remain at 2000 points and has hopes they can reduce the 3 hour time limit. He even advised to not look at the game through the lens of 8th edition. The more and more that gets revealed, the more the game appears to be very different from 8th.
I am unsure how you conclude that it will hinder build diversity. We haven't even seen how this would impact armies such as Custodes who will not require soup just to generate CP. It seems way too early to make any such claims.
Right now, I've been looking at building a Brigade. Normally, it takes around 1300 points for what I want, so I think In can still build one and be reasonably within the 2000 point cap. The Brigade Detachment, assuming it does not change the structure will have an abundant amount of slots available as well as units who may be better suited to not shoot and not feel as if I am crippling my army. In this build, I am not sure if Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots will be best suited. Much will also depend on missions as I build for ITC. These missions have a lot of similarities from what we have seen so far, but it is not a copy and paste. And, I can also garner more CP, much more than what I have used through 8th.
Will the game be dumbed down? Depends on what you define as dumbed down. The game got massively streamlined and faster when it changed from 2nd to 3rd edition and from 7th to early 8th edition (pre codex). Currently, many rules were dropped/altered to make for a more streamlined game. Over the years mechanics such as fire arcs, terror/fear tests, guess ranges, template/blast markers, scatter dice have all disappeared. These are but a few off the top of my head. Is this dumbing down the game? Again, it depends on how you define it.
Per Thursday's preview a battalion consists of- 2-3 HQ, 3-6 Troops, 0-6 elites, 0-3 Fast/Heavy and, 0-2 Flyers. You can also take 1 transport for each unit of infantry taken. Cost 3CP gives 3 CP if you have your warlord in it.
I still don't understand why IG gets to have 3 tanks count as 1 heavy slot but we (who have a strategy based on having 3 heavies) have to use all of our slots for 3 tanks.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I still don't understand why IG gets to have 3 tanks count as 1 heavy slot but we (who have a strategy based on having 3 heavies) have to use all of our slots for 3 tanks.
I’d like to see squadroning come back, But understand why guard gets it. Part of their whole theme is “we’ve got more bodies then you have bullets” which scales up to tanks as well. And there is their old rule of 3. Take 3 of any unit you need. One will be destroyed before doing anything. The second will miss. But the third will get the job done.
slave.entity wrote: Based on what's been revealed so far, maximizing CP in 9E means trying to squeeze your entire army into a single battalion detachment. Seems pretty OK for eldar since we have solid units in every category.
What's the benefit from having just one detachment.
What's the idea behind?
I can only think of mono-builds which benefit from being ''mono''.
IH and GK come to my mind, but Aeldari kin?
There's a good tactica report up on Tabletop Tactics' youtube featuring a wraith heavy ynnari list vs deathguard if anyone fancies some weekend viewing
I don't think Ynarri are great for wraith heavy lists, there is too much good stuff from craftworlds you miss out on.
Here's hoping Ynarri get a proper rework in 9th.
kingheff wrote: I don't think Ynarri are great for wraith heavy lists, there is too much good stuff from craftworlds you miss out on.
Here's hoping Ynarri get a proper rework in 9th.
Id rather they just didnt bother if the flip from ynnari 1 to ynnari 2 shows the effort they want to put into the 'faction', its really just 3 hqs that can be slotted into any of the existing 3 and post PA giving up standard or custom traits etc seems unwise
I watched the battle report. For the Ynarri army, a few things stuck out:
- Falcons appeared very mediocre without custom Craftworld traits.
- The Wraithseer powers are not very good. I'm happy and hoping the FW stuff really will be in line rules wise with 9th edition.
- I did not see anything in the game that would warrant me using Wraithblades in an Ynarri detachment over a Craftworld detachment. It actually appeared to be a detriment.
With 9th edition in mind, I will likely just continue to play Ynarri characters within a Craftworld detachment.
Sarigar wrote: I watched the battle report. For the Ynarri army, a few things stuck out:
- Falcons appeared very mediocre without custom Craftworld traits.
- The Wraithseer powers are not very good. I'm happy and hoping the FW stuff really will be in line rules wise with 9th edition.
- I did not see anything in the game that would warrant me using Wraithblades in an Ynarri detachment over a Craftworld detachment. It actually appeared to be a detriment.
With 9th edition in mind, I will likely just continue to play Ynarri characters within a Craftworld detachment.
Seconded, the lack of exarch powers and crafters vacuum makes them look a bit redundant. I get the feeling both the psychic awakening the faction updates were done without a top down consideration of one another which is a bit of a fail. Perhaps in trying to avoid the OP nature of mid 8th Ynarri they felt they could do without. Maybe a tad shortsighted...
Considering a sub to TT though as I like the format and they're pretty entertaining. Haven't played enough to tell if the quality of play is high.
The level of play in battle reports is a curious beast
I suspect part of it is filming takes far longer than the finished product so focus drifts and weird choices occur (although starting Smite-a-thons with Farseers always engrumps me)
Sarigar wrote: I watched the battle report. For the Ynarri army, a few things stuck out:
- Falcons appeared very mediocre without custom Craftworld traits.
- The Wraithseer powers are not very good. I'm happy and hoping the FW stuff really will be in line rules wise with 9th edition.
- I did not see anything in the game that would warrant me using Wraithblades in an Ynarri detachment over a Craftworld detachment. It actually appeared to be a detriment.
With 9th edition in mind, I will likely just continue to play Ynarri characters within a Craftworld detachment.
Seconded, the lack of exarch powers and crafters vacuum makes them look a bit redundant. I get the feeling both the psychic awakening the faction updates were done without a top down consideration of one another which is a bit of a fail. Perhaps in trying to avoid the OP nature of mid 8th Ynarri they felt they could do without. Maybe a tad shortsighted...
Considering a sub to TT though as I like the format and they're pretty entertaining. Haven't played enough to tell if the quality of play is high.
Totaly agree. I would argue you dont take the wraithseer for his psychic power really... Although his 3d6 discard lowest charge power is decent. I agree that on balance CWE do have a much better powers/traits for blades than ynnari but SFD is really good on them too. Really though, you take wraithseers for a tanky distraction carnifex (and I mean really tanky) lord of rebirth on one and lost shroud on another - gives you an incredible amount of firepower absorption for the points and they pack enugh CC punch plus a smattering of firepower. This leaves things like waves serpents carrying precoius cargo or other key units unmolested. The psychic powers are a nice little bonus on top but I either forget to cast them half the time or dont bother in case I peril.
It was an interesting game. TTT play quality is normaly good. Thing is the guys pretty much play every army. So some armies might not be played for a while. With the amount of rules scattered about its only natural they dont remeber all of the rules and get stuff wrong. Its fruistrating but I'd leave that gripe at GW door more than anything... Heck im a CWE exclusive player and I have been forgetting to roll my damn path of command CP regen like every game. However I really enjoy their content and its nice to see them do quirky lists and just have fun games. Not every game has to be 100% bleeding edge efficient. Their Tactica bat reps do focus on that. In this case it was a test for how you could run a ynnari best and aim for best in faction. I think the falcons actually did okey or as okay as can be expected without EC.
Their on demand website sub is well worth the £5 they charge IMO. You get almost daily bat reps. Its useful learning about other armies if not the entertainment. The narrative driven stuff and the D&D stuff is certainly my favourite.
This game certainly exposed the inferiority of ynnari compared to pretty much everything else and its a very gimmicky "faction" which is essentially 3 special characters.
Well, Falcons and Wraith-constructs rank very low in my book.
If you want a high toughness list, then you search in the right direction.
I had success with Wraithguard w/ Dscyhtes jumping out of a Serpents.
They can blow away a whole MEQ unit in one volley.
The rest of the Wraith constructs are too slow or have too less damage output.
Falcons can be an integral part of a fully mech army.
They got cheaper and should not be overlooked.
But if you play a horde army, full mech may lead to an uphill battle you cannot win.
Turnip Jedi wrote: The level of play in battle reports is a curious beast
I suspect part of it is filming takes far longer than the finished product so focus drifts and weird choices occur (although starting Smite-a-thons with Farseers always engrumps me)
The quality is outstanding.
You have to appreciate that the team is reduced to just 2 guys that are churning out a LOT of content during the pandemic (usually it's 5-6 guys). They are working crazy hours to keep the content flowing, so mistakes etc are bound to happen. Still the best BR channel by far IMHO.
plus a tiny points buff as CTM isnt wont be a thing
@ Bullyboy, not a slight at them, happens on all battle reps, Ive often lost the thread of what I was doing in the 10 or so minutes collecting subs at my club
The day 1 FAQ is going to be huge. There are so many rules that simply don't do anything anymore. Half the GSC Rusted Claw trait doesn't work. CTMs don't do anything. That CHE exarch power doesn't do anything. And so on...
slave.entity wrote: The day 1 FAQ is going to be huge. There are so many rules that simply don't do anything anymore. Half the GSC Rusted Claw trait doesn't work. CTMs don't do anything. That CHE exarch power doesn't do anything. And so on...
But apparentyl they have written all these in mind of 9th ed eh... Okay okay enough GW bashing. Low hanging fruit is low hanging fruit
Bit of a wishlist time but Id hope CTM turns into additional AP. That would make scatter lazors good IMO. Alternatively I would take a +1 BS.
However I don't think there will be a an FAQ addressing all these traits, gear etc. There is just too much stuff thats slightly different. Some apply to vehicles. some to bikes.. some to infanry already soem are wholesale. I think they will just keep a lot of the rules doing nothing until a new codex is released piecemeal.
I still think twin cats on WL is better than flamers if they can still pew in combat.
I think the real winner is the Vyper and scat bikes, and all the falcon chassis vehicles. We have the mobility. I expect scat bikes to make a resurgence providing we don't get steamrolled by the point increases... Our stuff is expensive as hell already.
Ironically, those are what I've been working on. Up to 21 Windriders and 9 Vypers. Had been leaning heavily to the Windrider Host detachment upgrade. It was going to be Saim Hann, but with the to hit penalty removed, I can look into Custom Craftworld traits. Masterful Shots will be very useful with this combo.
I don't see any reason to think that the changes don't just make night spinners even better than they already were relative to everything else. A 16" move flying tank with 48 range indirect fire (i.e. with a threat range to hit literally anywhere on the new table, ignoring LOS) and no penalty for moving is wickedly good.
Unless of course they wise up and give them a premium points cost, along with all other indirect, which really should cost a lot more than it does.
yukishiro1 wrote: I don't see any reason to think that the changes don't just make night spinners even better than they already were relative to everything else. A 16" move flying tank with 48 range indirect fire (i.e. with a threat range to hit literally anywhere on the new table, ignoring LOS) and no penalty for moving is wickedly good.
Unless of course they wise up and give them a premium points cost, along with all other indirect, which really should cost a lot more than it does.
I think fire prisms are way better off. The duality and inbuilt AP is great but falcon and wave serpent are just betetr tanks now in my eyes. The LOS ignoring becomes less important if I can fly up a building and pick my shots.
Spinners were already pretty good IMO. The only thing they hurt by was the nature of mono-filament/Shuriken ap going up against anythign with a 2+ save or power armour in cover menaing you ahd to invets in a atrait just for that.. Having ap 0 really held them back unless they are shooting at something that's doomed.
I hope new codex really brings filament weapons out to the fore and gives them epic rules. I expect they will be blast weapons.
Spinners weren't already "pretty good," they were auto-takes that were far and away the best tank in the codex. Being able to move without the -1 to hit, denser terrain, and terrain that blocks based on keywords not real LOS just makes them even better.
In 8th they are viciously undercosted, especially with the EC/MS master cheese combo - pretty much all indirect is undercosted, but they are especially so, because indirect + maneuverability combines exponentially in terms of unit value.
Nightspinners in tournaments were nearly an auto include when custom Craftworld Traits were introduced combined with such an aggressive point value. Include a character and that is a detachment, so it did not overly impact an army build.
yukishiro1 wrote: Spinners weren't already "pretty good," they were auto-takes that were far and away the best tank in the codex. Being able to move without the -1 to hit, denser terrain, and terrain that blocks based on keywords not real LOS just makes them even better.
In 8th they are viciously undercosted, especially with the EC/MS master cheese combo - pretty much all indirect is undercosted, but they are especially so, because indirect + maneuverability combines exponentially in terms of unit value.
I think only after the last round of pints cuts did they certain ly came into their own. But even then I wasnt a big fan.
Their 2d6 shots were far too swingy for me and had games where they did zero impact compared to a wave serpent(with offered utility and MW) and tempest launchers. Their 2d6 shots no inherent rerolls or AP and str 7 meant they didint offer duality for taking out vehicles which reapers. I used 2 tempest launchers in serpents in MSU lists almost exclusively post PA. Slightly lower range but much easier to hide and far more reliable as well as added oomph in the 3dmg missiles from the two reaper dudes.
When I played against other eldar It was often hard to hide all 3 and I could always pop 1-2 in my first round of shooting.
I kept going back and forth with spinners, ignore cover made them viable but I still find they whiff too often for my liking.
The main thing in their favour is the fact that they can hide and shoot hiding stuff and that they were dirt cheap. I
still think the falcon is a better tank because it had reliable damage for basically the same cost and I can hide a squad of avengers in there.
I am unsure about the smaller board size regards our faction because our manouvrability means we can get to shoot what we want easier but we can't run away as effectively. The slower wraith units should benefit too, which is nice.
IMO the Falcon and the Wave Serpent are the biggest winners for us, alongside the more obvious bikes and vypers, because they are both very competitive transports (rare!) with nice weapon options that are often forced to move to fulfil their transport function. Crystal targetting matrix has been useful but limited. Gunboat Serpents may become a common thing now.
I think wraithlords look very good now, I've liked them since the start of 8th but with the changes they look very useful.
I think counter charge units are going to be essential with the smaller board size and wraithlords with guns can shoot and move without penalty and either intercept dangerous melee threats or threaten big units with their melee.
One thing I am interested to see is the weapon points changes, missile launchers look amazing with the blast rules so I expect those will go up, probably the same for scatter lasers and star cannons.
kingheff wrote: Regarding the weapon points I meant to put in relation to shuriken cannons
oh aye im pretty certain all the midrange guns like starcannon, dissies, etc will take a sins of last edition points bump whilst Lances and other dedicated anti-tank stuff will get off light to entice folks to take them but if constant rerolls remain a thing the moar dice tactic will stay
kingheff wrote: I wonder how crimson hunters will end up being pointed. Hitting on 2s with a 5++ looks awesome as long as the cost isn't prohibitive.
Its dependant on what role the fliers will fill.
The fact they will be leaving the table is interesting and no idea what that actually means
its a tricky one as due to the fancy flying rules of having the extra turn leaving the table will be more of a choice than other factions and depends if those rules involve skipping a round, plus random overcosting due to prior hotness is a thing but erring on a bump in excess of the general increase along with starcannons jumping as my other post
Fingers crossed the Nightwing slips under the radar
Isn't the change that flyers don't get destroyed if they fly off? Assuming that you can keep on the table, which as an eldar flyer isn't a big problem, I assume you can just use them as now?
kingheff wrote: Isn't the change that flyers don't get destroyed if they fly off? Assuming that you can keep on the table, which as an eldar flyer isn't a big problem, I assume you can just use them as now?
indeed, what im getting at is if the flying on and off rule will have a bearing on point cost for all flyers especially if they have to miss a turn, although the on/off rule might help the Hemlocks already potent character sniping game
So the only thing that doesnt really get to benefit from LOS on our roster is the WK.
Anyone have a WL to hand ? Is it more than 5" tall ?
I think big blob + guide + fire and fade is about to be the new king. All hail the return of the blobs.
I wonder if character rules will remain unchanged.
With this rule it will be very easy to hide most things. Its great.
I think conceal trait is what Ill be rocking with and EC. Having stuff hardly targetable and also getting a 2+ on ma tanks? grrrreaaat!
I sort of wish terrain would also hinder movement in the same vein difficult/dangerous terrain did..
Mine is on a decorative base and still under 5 inches.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've played ITC and ruins blocked LoS on the first floor, so a big Guardian squad would perform the trick you describe. It makes for a nice option; 36 shots and 6 Cannon shots, then Fire and Fade out of LOS.
kingheff wrote: I kept going back and forth with spinners, ignore cover made them viable but I still find they whiff too often for my liking.
The main thing in their favour is the fact that they can hide and shoot hiding stuff and that they were dirt cheap. I
still think the falcon is a better tank because it had reliable damage for basically the same cost and I can hide a squad of avengers in there.
I am unsure about the smaller board size regards our faction because our manouvrability means we can get to shoot what we want easier but we can't run away as effectively. The slower wraith units should benefit too, which is nice.
Kiting the board edge may become a thing of the past. We shall see.
I think we will soon be able to outflank with units such as Wraithguard (as well as many others). A large squad of D-Scythe Wraithguard come in from board edge, 1 CP for auto 6" advance, and even Quicken as an additional movement can put them exactly where they need to be. Be cognizant of Auspex type abilities and I think it can bring great utility to one of our more underused (and cool looking, IMO) units.
One great takeaway after listening to the Splintermind podcast, who were playtesters, stated that if you already have a large Eldar collection, you will be just fine in 9th. It will be learning how 9th is different from 8th and then can quickly adjust the army. The fact I am looking at Windriders, Wraithlords, and Wraithguard after seeing the various previews, FLG Twitch and the aforementioned podcast is a big indicator for me just how much the edition may be different.
The vertical profile isn't usually the problem for hiding eldar tanks, it's the horizontal one, so the obscure rule is unlikely to provide much benefit if you were playing previously with the ITC "first floor blocks LOS" rules that almost all competitive 40k used.
This won't change much for falcons, spinners, etc based on what they've said. The first floor on ITC ruins was usually high enough to hide an eldar grav tank vertically.
It's wraithlords that are ones who really benefit from obscure in the CWE list; they were so tall previously that it was almost impossible to hide them, but now height won't matter any more, and their horizontal profile is very small. Tall, slender things are helped out more by obscure than any other model shape.
A grav tank is almost exactly 4" tall (if you don't put the antenna on it, and use the lower of the two mounting options); a wraithlord is more like 4.9". That .9" actually makes a huge difference in ITC re: what you can hide and what you can't hide.
Argive wrote: I think pack hunting prisms might become disgusting alpha strikers. Only one needs to see the target
Could even cloud-strike one just to get LOS...
I am not sure why, but I've not seen Fire Prisms used much outside the first year or so of 8th edition. I only own one and I think I ran it one time last year at a local tourney. I like the model and the rules. It will likely receive the blast keyword. If points are at what I would consider reasonable, I'd definitely like to use it agajjn.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote: The vertical profile isn't usually the problem for hiding eldar tanks, it's the horizontal one, so the obscure rule is unlikely to provide much benefit if you were playing previously with the ITC "first floor blocks LOS" rules that almost all competitive 40k used.
This won't change much for falcons, spinners, etc based on what they've said. The first floor on ITC ruins was usually high enough to hide an eldar grav tank vertically.
It's wraithlords that are ones who really benefit from obscure in the CWE list; they were so tall previously that it was almost impossible to hide them, but now height won't matter any more, and their horizontal profile is very small. Tall, slender things are helped out more by obscure than any other model shape.
A grav tank is almost exactly 4" tall (if you don't put the antenna on it, and use the lower of the two mounting options); a wraithlord is more like 4.9". That .9" actually makes a huge difference in ITC re: what you can hide and what you can't hide.
At best, I would only be able to get a single tank out of LOS at the beginning of the game (playing ITC). The mitigating factor for me was deployment type and minimizing what could shoot at my units through range. Wraithlords were finally seeing some usage based upon points efficiency. If terrain will help them more and they remain aggressively pointed, I'd love to field Wraithlords. I like the model and I've got another on one on sprues; I would like to have a reason to get it painted up.
Hey I need some advice on making a list for this weekend, I posted an Ulthewe list in the list making section, but I'm lost on synergy. I keep wanting to use custom factions from the last book, but I do want to run it as Ulthewe instead. That's my only limitation.
Well, the announcement of the new ed makes the tactical board a bit speechless.
What should we discuss here if there are no secured rules, just a framework of them.
However, Eldar has such a diverse army such that we can deal with any rule changes and still have a competitive army.
I concur, only unit that currently appears in peril is Guardians as 10 bodys plus platform leaves them open to new blast as well their usual nemesis of massed reroll dakka
but like you say we have enough good units that a new hotness will rise
I concur, only unit that currently appears in peril is Guardians as 10 bodys plus platform leaves them open to new blast as well their usual nemesis of massed reroll dakka
Well, I never found 10 Guardians be useful babysitting a larger gun.
Not sure of 20 Guardians with 2 platforms can still be a shock and awe unit when deployed by deep striking.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, the announcement of the new ed makes the tactical board a bit speechless.
What should we discuss here if there are no secured rules, just a framework of them.
However, Eldar has such a diverse army such that we can deal with any rule changes and still have a competitive army.
Ah, Eldar. Broken in every edition, but what’s hot and what’s not shifts like the wind. Time to spin the wheel again.
<shakes magic 8-ball>
I’m guessing skimmer spam and a resurgence of scat bikes.
Very true. I played massed Wave Serpents in 5th edition. I really enjoyed the playstyle. However, I'm hoping to play more varied models. I'd like to bring out some of the newer kits such as Wraithguard and Howling Banshees and not feel like I am gimping myself.
So far looks like scatbikes, warwalkers, vypers, falcons, wraithlords and nightspinners will be better depending on points. CHE flying off and then back on again will be a pain to deal with. Possibly even the warp hunter for sitting out of sight as well.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, the announcement of the new ed makes the tactical board a bit speechless.
What should we discuss here if there are no secured rules, just a framework of them.
However, Eldar has such a diverse army such that we can deal with any rule changes and still have a competitive army.
Ah, Eldar. Broken in every edition, but what’s hot and what’s not shifts like the wind. Time to spin the wheel again.
<shakes magic 8-ball>
I’m guessing skimmer spam and a resurgence of scat bikes.
To add to this, I'm guessing flyers will see a lot less play if stacking -1 to hit modifiers are really going away.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, the announcement of the new ed makes the tactical board a bit speechless. What should we discuss here if there are no secured rules, just a framework of them. However, Eldar has such a diverse army such that we can deal with any rule changes and still have a competitive army.
Ah, Eldar. Broken in every edition, but what’s hot and what’s not shifts like the wind. Time to spin the wheel again.
<shakes magic 8-ball>
I’m guessing skimmer spam and a resurgence of scat bikes.
To add to this, I'm guessing flyers will see a lot less play if stacking -1 to hit modifiers are really going away.
Yeah things like warp spider, shadow specters are completely pointless now :( (new FW book might give us solid rules for respecters - Not that they were terrible in 8th)
However the necron reveal could mean that the cmmand phase will change how auras work. As in one unit only at a time. I really hope that's the case so re-roll everything auras wont be so much of an issue which could mean -1 will be worth something but who knows. The warp spider is sadly much worse off by the looks of it..
Turnip Jedi wrote: finger crossed for Warp Hunters, but like all the other fudge world stuff itll be interesting to see if the related book is / has been tweaked for 9th
I've been looking for an excuse to finally buy some Warp Hunters and maybe a Lynx... maybe even a Scorpion eventually... But been put off by the points costs etc so far. We can but hope they get looked at in a fair way.
i think the hunters got a drop in the last CA that nudged them towards okayish, not sure about the bigger ones suspect the still suffer from that big models means big points thing idea that persists
wuestenfux wrote: Well, the announcement of the new ed makes the tactical board a bit speechless.
What should we discuss here if there are no secured rules, just a framework of them.
However, Eldar has such a diverse army such that we can deal with any rule changes and still have a competitive army.
Ah, Eldar. Broken in every edition, but what’s hot and what’s not shifts like the wind. Time to spin the wheel again.
<shakes magic 8-ball>
I’m guessing skimmer spam and a resurgence of scat bikes.
To add to this, I'm guessing flyers will see a lot less play if stacking -1 to hit modifiers are really going away.
Yeah things like warp spider, shadow specters are completely pointless now :( (new FW book might give us solid rules for respecters - Not that they were terrible in 8th)
However the necron reveal could mean that the cmmand phase will change how auras work. As in one unit only at a time. I really hope that's the case so re-roll everything auras wont be so much of an issue which could mean -1 will be worth something but who knows. The warp spider is sadly much worse off by the looks of it..
I'm ok with capping to hit penalties if GW curtailed the massed reroll abilities. We shall see.
Nevelon wrote: How do we think the changes to overwatch are going to impact us?
Makes one of the banshee’s rules a little lackluster.
Scytheguard no longer have the automatic “hands off” sign.
But it should make it easier for the skinny little elves to get in and stab things without being mowed down by bolter fire.
it depends on what becomes our new hotness, and at a guess it wont be melee troops and as always we will have bullet sponge serpents if we need to get safely into fisticuffs
Nevelon wrote: How do we think the changes to overwatch are going to impact us?
Makes one of the banshee’s rules a little lackluster.
Scytheguard no longer have the automatic “hands off” sign.
But it should make it easier for the skinny little elves to get in and stab things without being mowed down by bolter fire.
The main shtick of banshees was to suicide charge and be able to tie up expensive and dangerous unit or two for one turn.
A bleach-boned little speed bump if you like.
I think their rules were always pretty luckluster and now with the the tanks and stuff being able to shoot in combat just makes them not have a role like at all.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, the announcement of the new ed makes the tactical board a bit speechless.
What should we discuss here if there are no secured rules, just a framework of them.
However, Eldar has such a diverse army such that we can deal with any rule changes and still have a competitive army.
Ah, Eldar. Broken in every edition, but what’s hot and what’s not shifts like the wind. Time to spin the wheel again.
<shakes magic 8-ball>
I’m guessing skimmer spam and a resurgence of scat bikes.
To add to this, I'm guessing flyers will see a lot less play if stacking -1 to hit modifiers are really going away.
Yeah things like warp spider, shadow specters are completely pointless now :( (new FW book might give us solid rules for respecters - Not that they were terrible in 8th)
However the necron reveal could mean that the cmmand phase will change how auras work. As in one unit only at a time. I really hope that's the case so re-roll everything auras wont be so much of an issue which could mean -1 will be worth something but who knows. The warp spider is sadly much worse off by the looks of it..
I'm ok with capping to hit penalties if GW curtailed the massed reroll abilities. We shall see.
For what its worth, Custodes got a defensive stratagem in the War of the Spider book that denies all re-rolls for the phase when declaring an attack on a unit. Its at least on the rulemakers radars, but unlikely to disappear from the rules any time soon.
In reality, I don't expect them to go away. I would like to see them curtailed a bit. I liked the original reroll mechanic in 8th, but it getting superseded by things like Cawl and the Chapter Master stratagem sapped some of the enjoyment of the game for me. These reroll blobs seem to be another variation of death stars from previous editions.
see a lot less play if stacking -1 to hit modifiers are really going away.
Yeah things like warp spider.... are completely pointless now :(
The warp spider is sadly much worse off by the looks of it..
Knifes straight to my heart brahs.
No -1 to hit for heavy weapons seems great. Cover seems interesting. Command point structure should help us out. Personally I always hated overwatch, so glad it's been changed. The secondaries should help us, as we can usually dictate what goes on and what we want to do.
I think it's looking good for us. I wonder what the point changes will be. If they have done it individually or just applied a generic multiplier across the board. Someone who is familiar with chaos, what we're the point increase like? % and straight number wise. If over 2k games become standard, 18cp is great.
I have an Eldar tank of some sort that moves and shoots (getting closer to an enemy unit). After that, I can declare it charge an infantry unit (preferably one that cannot do much damage on overwatch). In the fight phase, I can then shoot again, but only at the models in engagement range. Effectively, giving me 2 opportunities to shoot in a single turn.
Can someone direct me where this is incorrect? There is a -1 penalty to hit with heavy weapons from the Big Guns Never Tire reading, but for a Wave Serpent with twin Cannons and underslung Cannon, it's shooting went from 9 to 18 shots in a turn.
I have an Eldar tank of some sort that moves and shoots (getting closer to an enemy unit). After that, I can declare it charge an infantry unit (preferably one that cannot do much damage on overwatch). In the fight phase, I can then shoot again, but only at the models in engagement range. Effectively, giving me 2 opportunities to shoot in a single turn.
Can someone direct me where this is incorrect? There is a -1 penalty to hit with heavy weapons from the Big Guns Never Tire reading, but for a Wave Serpent with twin Cannons and underslung Cannon, it's shooting went from 9 to 18 shots in a turn.
9th allow you to fire while being in engagement range of an enemy unit, not fire at it on the combat phase.
I have an Eldar tank of some sort that moves and shoots (getting closer to an enemy unit). After that, I can declare it charge an infantry unit (preferably one that cannot do much damage on overwatch). In the fight phase, I can then shoot again, but only at the models in engagement range. Effectively, giving me 2 opportunities to shoot in a single turn.
Can someone direct me where this is incorrect? There is a -1 penalty to hit with heavy weapons from the Big Guns Never Tire reading, but for a Wave Serpent with twin Cannons and underslung Cannon, it's shooting went from 9 to 18 shots in a turn.
9th allow you to fire while being in engagement range of an enemy unit, not fire at it on the combat phase.
Thank you for the clarification ! I went back to reread the description. You are correct.
Question for speculation - In 9th ed all vehicles will be able to move and fire heavy weapons without a penalty. What do you think that will mean for Crystal Targeting Matrices?
Yeah, it's underwhelming even by the normal standards of these releases.
The point about nightspinners also just seems to be wrong mathematically. Nightspinners get effectively no bonus at all vs 6-10 (it's about 1/20th of an extra shot on average). It's only at 11+ that the blast rule gives them a significant bonus, and everything in 9th so far has been about making nobody ever want to take a unit of 11+, with them also on record as saying the morale changes ALSO penalize units of 11+. So a bonus against a target that isn't going to exist and that you probably wouldn't want to shoot anyway isn't a real bonus.
Well, the article about faction focus in the 9th ed concentrated on Shining Spears, Night Spinners, and Dire Avengers.
A bit thin if you ask although running more MSU Dire Avengers is an interesting prospect.
They suggest one unit of Shining Spears. But it can be a suicide unit if you don't let it approach along a flank.
Night Spinners are too one-dimensional if you ask me. Not a unit I would field.
It may have been a misstatement or maybe I'm misinterpreting the article but it sounds like Assurman can effect as many units of Dire Avengers as you have on the board rather than being limited to a 6" bubble of effect.
I wouldn't be terribly surprised if GW released some sort of FAQ/errata to make some adjustments to each codex for 9th.
I wouldn't get your hopes up on that one, I'm pretty sure he means using asurman to buff them as they do now, looks like vague writing rather than a hint of a rules adjustment.
Agreed. I doubt we will see massive errata for codecies. Things will likely not work quite right (Crystal Target Matrix) until a new codex is published. We shall see.
MSU is likely to return, such as using Dire Avengers. Cheap troop choices that can be used to score points and not lose much firepower. Getting a 4++ from Asurmen improves durability as some missions will require a unit to sit on an objective and withstand an enemy shooting phase. But, the 5+ to hit on overwatch is nice, especially if enemy units try to assault multiple Dire Avenger units.
My question would be, why take a Craftworld battalion over a Harlequin Battalion? I can get cheap troop choices with better movement, a built in 4++, and the ability to mitigate shooting and damage rolls. While Asurmen is ok, Harlequin characters are arguably better. I can take a Spearhead to get the Nightspinners and Shining Spears, albeit with a CP cost.
There are certainly other factors and this article was very much lacking substantive details, but I'm not sure having 12 CP as opposed to the 9-10 many are accustomed to is significant enough to warrant using a single battalion. Add in the 1 CP given every turn, Craftworld lists will end up with more CP.
I've gotten used to ITC style terrain and Nightspinners and Reaper Exarchs with Tempest Launchers have been extremely useful. I still do not like the 2d6 mechanic, but Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots has helped offset it.
I'm not sure there's been a good reason to take a CWE batallion for a while, unless EC Rangers float your boat. DE and Harlies both offer much better troops.
As things stand three squads of avengers in falcons works out well for an expert crafters battalion, who knows what 9th will bring but I doubt non mechanised infantry will be it.
Sarigar wrote: Lack of models is the primary reason for myself. I've got quite a collection of painted Craftworld, but very few Harlequin and no Drukhari.
Well, I won't allow Harlies or Druhkari to enter my Eldar army.
Eldar is strong enough to work as a stand alone army.
One thing that's very funny about that article is that it's the only one where the person writing has been all "Okay guys try not to freak out about points increases TOO much, 9th will be rough to start off with...."
Doesn't exactly fill you with much confidence, especially when the Marine article hyped up TFC's.
Sarigar wrote: Lack of models is the primary reason for myself. I've got quite a collection of painted Craftworld, but very few Harlequin and no Drukhari.
Well, I won't allow Harlies or Druhkari to enter my Eldar army. Eldar is strong enough to work as a stand alone army.
That's exactly how I've felt since I started collecting and playing eldar a few years ago. But I've gotta be honest: Wyches have got me hooked. They are such a fun unit to combine with a CWE backbone that I have trouble going back. Previously my troops would cower in a building, occasionally picking off an intercessor. Now my boats of doom put a count down threat on my opponent, and if they can't deal with that threat their army ends up covered in howling wych death. They're glassy, but not so once in CC, where their 4++/6+++ makes them pretty sticky. And the shardnet just got SO much better in the new edition, which heralds the end of tripointing as a reliable strategy. Finally they unlock Drazhar, one of the best point-for-point beatsticks in the game. This batallion finds its way into a lot of my lists, with the Yncarne in my CWE detachments, to layer in a second deadly CC threat that can be anywhere on the board. It's priced to move too, and it leaves enough points on the table to build a CWE majority force that can being all your favourite toys, who tend to get more time shooting, and better options, due to the pressure/ blocking game the wyches bring:
kingheff wrote: As things stand three squads of avengers in falcons works out well for an expert crafters battalion, who knows what 9th will bring but I doubt non mechanised infantry will be it.
There is a small tourney this weekend and that is exactly what I used to fill out a Battalion.
I played a pure Craftworld army for most of this edition and started slowly started a Harlequin collection, first by utilizing a Vanguard detachment. I'm building towards a Battalion to expand my options. My initial thoughts is to run a Harlequin Battalion and Craftworld Spearhead in 9th, but I don't feel I have enough understanding of 9th edition to make any concrete decisions. However, I really like the Harlequin model range.
I like the Drukhari range, but trying to add to my collection of unpainted models at the moment.
BATTALION
1 x 1 Farseer
1 x 1 Warlock
3 x 5 Dire Avengers (Each unit has Exarch with 2 Avenger Catapult and Shredding Fire)
1 x 2 Hornets, Spirit Stones, Hornet Pulse Lasers
3 x 1 Falcon, Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Pulse Laser
SPEARHEAD
1 x 1 Autarch
3 x 1 Nightspinner
1 x 5 Dark Reapers (1 is Exarch with Tempest Launcher and reroll 2d6 shots)
AIRWING
3 x 1 Crimson Hunter Exarch, Starcannon, Hawkeye
1996 points
10 CP Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots
Bosskelot wrote: One thing that's very funny about that article is that it's the only one where the person writing has been all "Okay guys try not to freak out about points increases TOO much, 9th will be rough to start off with...."
Doesn't exactly fill you with much confidence, especially when the Marine article hyped up TFC's.
It is because all of the writers are tournament players. They struggle when they are forced to think outside of the box with army builds. Less options means the combos of old don’t work anymore. I think that’s healthy, but I’m also the type who likes to play games with crazy point values (like 1789 one game and then 1833 the next instead of 2k) as I enjoy the fun in list building.
wuestenfux wrote: Looks quite good.
Farseer and Warlock are lumbering.
I'd give them jetbikes.
Too easy to be sniped by Eliminators if I don't get first turn. It's not uncommon for me to see 6-9 Eliminators in an army.
Agreed, I prefer transports to bikes too. Doom is 24", Jinx is 18", so you have some room for quarterbacking with your psychic duo. 7+1d6" move is often enough, especially on top of the 4" disembark.
Bosskelot wrote: One thing that's very funny about that article is that it's the only one where the person writing has been all "Okay guys try not to freak out about points increases TOO much, 9th will be rough to start off with...."
Doesn't exactly fill you with much confidence, especially when the Marine article hyped up TFC's.
It is because all of the writers are tournament players. They struggle when they are forced to think outside of the box with army builds. Less options means the combos of old don’t work anymore. I think that’s healthy, but I’m also the type who likes to play games with crazy point values (like 1789 one game and then 1833 the next instead of 2k) as I enjoy the fun in list building.
Those who have won large tournaments generally developed the armies that were then emulated and copied afterwards. Several of the playtesters known so far are those types of people. Not sure how you concluded they struggle thinking outside the box with army builds.
wuestenfux wrote: Looks quite good.
Farseer and Warlock are lumbering.
I'd give them jetbikes.
Too easy to be sniped by Eliminators if I don't get first turn. It's not uncommon for me to see 6-9 Eliminators in an army.
Agreed, I prefer transports to bikes too. Doom is 24", Jinx is 18", so you have some room for quarterbacking with your psychic duo. 7+1d6" move is often enough, especially on top of the 4" disembark.
Agreed. I can also choose Faolchu Wing to assist depending on match up.
Sarigar wrote: BATTALION
1 x 1 Farseer
1 x 1 Warlock
3 x 5 Dire Avengers (Each unit has Exarch with 2 Avenger Catapult and Shredding Fire)
1 x 2 Hornets, Spirit Stones, Hornet Pulse Lasers
3 x 1 Falcon, Starcannon, Twin Catapult, Pulse Laser
SPEARHEAD
1 x 1 Autarch
3 x 1 Nightspinner
1 x 5 Dark Reapers (1 is Exarch with Tempest Launcher and reroll 2d6 shots)
AIRWING
3 x 1 Crimson Hunter Exarch, Starcannon, Hawkeye
1996 points
10 CP Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots
According to some write ups you'd be better off dropping rain of death for crack shot Sar. I'm not a maths head though so have never been able to check his numbers - I'm looking at the Reapers entry below. The maths doesnt account for EC though, however Rapid Shot is apparently still better (+1 shots)
But, I also have an Autarch which gives a reroll 1 ability and Expert Crafters. I don't know how to do the math either, but I did look at some overlap in abilities.
I think it will come down to points and the cost of separate detachment.
In a single CWE battalion you could potentially fit fliers, tanks wave serpents and some chaff troops or wraiths etc as well as the very potent guide+doom.
In a Harleys detachments you can only really take troops(yes very good troops) flimsy transports and bikers.
So then fitting the secondary battalion will depend on what gaps you can fill to justify the costs.
A Harlie detachment in a CWE army?
My battle plan is usually to keep the enemy at arm's length
and go for the enemy's throat in the mid/end game.
Harlie troops don't fit into this concept, maybe Skyweavers.
As it stands, I'm not looking at two battalions. I'm looking at a Harlequin Battalion and a Craftworld Spearhead. Points values, CP cost are big factors, but the mission is going to be very significant.
If a significant amount of VP is earned by keeping models on an objective until the beginnjjng of your next command phase. There are a few factors I see immediately. Durability of the unit trying to score the VP; what that you gives up to score (shooting and assault); how difficult will it be for your opponent to remove said unit; the amount of pressure I can present with other units; Troops still having an advantage over non Troops.
I've played these types of missions in previous editions (folks who run the Atlanta GT used similar missions before converting to ITC). What this created was folks spending turn 1 getting units onto objectives and presenting other threats so significant that the opponent would have little options open to go after the units trying to score. GW has now added an additional layer that the units trying to score lose their shooting and assault option. With that, I want to utilize the least costly, yet most resilient Troop choice in order to score points.
Harlequin Troupes have easy access to -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and a 4++. They also have an edge in movement. Again, points can toss this idea, but a Battalion can be quite cheap to build.
Craftworlds Troop choices appear to offer less based on what I think will be important in 9th edition missions. However, if I relax the need for units to be a Troop choice (adding a bit more risk to my plans), Windriders can also be a good option. Based on current points, keep them cheap at 54 points.
Without these kinds of units, I risk sacrificing units I need as a threat in order to score.
This does not even factor in the smaller table size that I am confident I will end up playing most of my games on. My current playstyle and army design will need to adapt to 9th editions missions.
As it stands, I'm not looking at two battalions. I'm looking at a Harlequin Battalion and a Craftworld Spearhead. Points values, CP cost are big factors, but the mission is going to be very significant.
Harlies are not a competitive army, at least not at the level of a battalion.
In a competitive setting, you may think about Skyweavers.
I never excluded Skyweavers as an option, but provided justification as to why it's worth reviewing a Harlequin Battalion. I'm well aware of Skyweavers.
You provide nothing other than dismissive statements. Maybe offer something constructive would be a more meaningful contribution?
Sarigar wrote: I never excluded Skyweavers as an option, but provided justification as to why it's worth reviewing a Harlequin Battalion. I'm well aware of Skyweavers.
You provide nothing other than dismissive statements. Maybe offer something constructive would be a more meaningful contribution?
Well, I played Harlies in several test battles.
Harlie troupes mounted onto Skyweavers are usually the core of a Harlie army.
But I figured that its difficult to deliver the Troupes to where you want them. The enemy can change the order of hitting in cc and so take the sting a bit out of the charge. And when the enemy hits back in cc, it can become painful even with a 4++ save. From my experience, its better to charge with one unit per turn. On the other hand, Skyweavers are one of the better units in 40k. I fielded three units of 5 and they can hit the enemy hard if supported right.
Sarigar wrote: I never excluded Skyweavers as an option, but provided justification as to why it's worth reviewing a Harlequin Battalion. I'm well aware of Skyweavers.
You provide nothing other than dismissive statements. Maybe offer something constructive would be a more meaningful contribution?
Well, I played Harlies in several test battles.
Harlie troupes mounted onto Skyweavers are usually the core of a Harlie army.
But I figured that its difficult to deliver the Troupes to where you want them. The enemy can change the order of hitting in cc and so take the sting a bit out of the charge. And when the enemy hits back in cc, it can become painful even with a 4++ save. From my experience, its better to charge with one unit per turn. On the other hand, Skyweavers are one of the better units in 40k. I fielded three units of 5 and they can hit the enemy hard if supported right.
I don't think anyone questions whether Skyweavers are A good unit. What is your ideas to hold objectives and score points in 9th edition? Skyweavers would lose the ability to shoot and assault if they try to hold an objective. I dont think that would be a good use for Skyweavers. That is the crux of my statements/questions.
Sarigar wrote: As it stands, I'm not looking at two battalions. I'm looking at a Harlequin Battalion and a Craftworld Spearhead. Points values, CP cost are big factors, but the mission is going to be very significant.
If a significant amount of VP is earned by keeping models on an objective until the beginnjjng of your next command phase. There are a few factors I see immediately. Durability of the unit trying to score the VP; what that you gives up to score (shooting and assault); how difficult will it be for your opponent to remove said unit; the amount of pressure I can present with other units; Troops still having an advantage over non Troops.
I've played these types of missions in previous editions (folks who run the Atlanta GT used similar missions before converting to ITC). What this created was folks spending turn 1 getting units onto objectives and presenting other threats so significant that the opponent would have little options open to go after the units trying to score. GW has now added an additional layer that the units trying to score lose their shooting and assault option. With that, I want to utilize the least costly, yet most resilient Troop choice in order to score points.
Harlequin Troupes have easy access to -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and a 4++. They also have an edge in movement. Again, points can toss this idea, but a Battalion can be quite cheap to build.
Craftworlds Troop choices appear to offer less based on what I think will be important in 9th edition missions. However, if I relax the need for units to be a Troop choice (adding a bit more risk to my plans), Windriders can also be a good option. Based on current points, keep them cheap at 54 points.
Without these kinds of units, I risk sacrificing units I need as a threat in order to score.
This does not even factor in the smaller table size that I am confident I will end up playing most of my games on. My current playstyle and army design will need to adapt to 9th editions missions.
I think bare bones DA squads or storm guardians will be what I'm going to go with pts pending.
Point changes unknown, but to hold an objective, if having a choice of a 55 point unit, the Harlequin Troupe is more survivable and has with better movement capability than the Dire Avenger unit.
A recent battle report may help demonstrate what I'm referring to for anyone not familiar with this type of scoring mechanic. It's a Skaredcast battle report trying to show the rules known for 9th.
Troupe units are really, really good. I'm constantly surprised people bag on them. Aside from intercessors, it's hard to come up with another troop choice that is better. I think where people usually go wrong is in making them too expensive, taking fusion pistols and weapons on all of them, so you end up with something that's 25 points a unit instead of the 14ish it ought to be when you take a couple weapons in a squad and leave a couple base. At that price point, they're super resilient with the -1W to wound, the -6" range, a 3++ if you want to spend the 1CP for it.
If we can deep strike after turn 3 then we get some good value out of 5 rangers right? Maybe my reading is mistaken but it seems they can hoover up any objective your opponent hasn't put units within 9 inches on turns 4+
Point changes unknown, but to hold an objective, if having a choice of a 55 point unit, the Harlequin Troupe is more survivable and has with better movement capability than the Dire Avenger unit.
But they won't survive much longer.
If the enemy targets a 5 men Troupe squad, it will hardly survive. Hands down.
Point changes unknown, but to hold an objective, if having a choice of a 55 point unit, the Harlequin Troupe is more survivable and has with better movement capability than the Dire Avenger unit.
But they won't survive much longer.
If the enemy targets a 5 men Troupe squad, it will hardly survive. Hands down.
That is why I previously brought up the importance of having other units putting significant pressure on your opponent in order to force them to not deal with the 5 man squads.
What would you recommend in your army go sit on an objective whichnwill lose the ability to shoot and assault?
Here are a few ideas that come to mind:
-Swooping Hawks seem like an option as they would likely retain the grenade drop ability as it occurs in the movement phase and they are relatively cheap. Great movement to get to objectives, but would not sustain getting shot at. The Exarch ability for to apply a -2 movement penalty for assault could be valuable.
-Alaitoc Rangers possibly; mainly because of the stratagem that can be used on them to only be hit on 6's.
-Windrider squads. Cheapish and fast.
Skyweavers definitely have their place in an army, but I highly doubt you will be willing to sacrifice their shooting and assault in order to score an objective. Skyweavers is the perfect pressure unit to force the opponent to not go after your objective scoring units.
I think MSU will become quite important primarily due to mission design (progressive scoring).
What would you recommend in your army go sit on an objective whichnwill lose the ability to shoot and assault?
As you already mentioned, putting pressure upon the enemy will make the opponent hard pressed to make decisions.
I prefer a fully mobile army in the first place.
My experience tells me if you have static units, the enemy will move some units up there.
This is not what you want, you want to move the enemy where you want it to move.
Scoring is then basically a matter of timing and positioning.
Forgive me if I've got this wrong, Sarigar, but it seems you're suggeting plugging an MSU Harly batallion into your CWE force to provide you with troops that are cheaper than DA or rangers, but also have a native 4++ and access to -1 to wound buff. This would give you some kind of obsec ability, and also unlock pressure units like Skyweavers, and the excellent roster of Harly HQs such as the Solitair and Jesters.
That sounds like it's very much relevant to a CWE discussion, because it leaves aroun 1300-1400pts of CWE to select, or maybe less if you opted to upgear a troupe and give them a ride.
I don't really understand the reluctance to talk about how CWE soup in a CWE thread, given that CWE have access to such interesting options, which all starkly change your available playstyles.
That, combined with progressive scoring (units sitting on an objective through your opponents turn before you can actually earn points) and the new game mechanic that forbids any unit that is trying to score to shoot or declare an assault.
It can be a Battalion, but it just as well be a Patrol; all depends on how many Harlequin Troupe units one would want.
Trying to look at how the new missions work. An army I just ran this weekend (posted on previous page), would get absolutely wrecked in 9th edition within these new missions.
Depend how common these 'action' objectives are really I guess and if doing it stops psykers as jetlocks or even footlocks with abaltive meatsheilds or a serpent might be the go to, or even a barebone wraithlord as a harder to shift dedicted objective clicker
Valid points all-around. Bare bones Wraithlords could be a solid choice. It's all speculation, but have been curious to see how the game and armies will change in what may be as early as late July.
We know from the previews that non-infantry models can move and fire a heavy weapon without penalty. My question is how does that effect the tactical difference between taking a shuriken cannon vs either a scatter laser or star cannon. How important is it that you can assault and still fire your shuriken cannonrather than having the better weapon range of the other 2 choices? As a side thought how do you think this will effect each weapon's point cost?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: We know from the previews that non-infantry models can move and fire a heavy weapon without penalty. My question is how does that effect the tactical difference between taking a shuriken cannon vs either a scatter laser or star cannon. How important is it that you can assault and still fire your shuriken cannonrather than having the better weapon range of the other 2 choices? As a side thought how do you think this will effect each weapon's point cost?
Have a feeling most of the popular midrange guns like Starcannons, Dizzys etc will get a slight utility bump in points (or that they splat nu-marines a treat your salt / tinfoil milage may vary
Scatter Lasers are a bit tricker to call as 4/8 shots is very reliable dakka and with the heavy penalty going I suspect without a sizable points gap between them and shurki-cannons theyll become default unless the math-hammer of custom shuriken related traits shows a decent damage increase/parity, plus given 9th is hard on hordes they might just be cheap for funs
and whilst its at least a year off will we get to keep EC, currently a coin flip between oops we gave xenos a good thing cant have that and the benign nelect of copy/paste letting it sneak past (ditto Dark Technomancy for deldar)
Another Nick Nanavati game this evening, interesting that one of the top tournament players went with such a plethora of troops - however a lot of the trends that have come up in this thread recently have shown up in his list (wraithlords, harlequin troops.) Admittedly this isn't an official tournament list but it is interesting to see one the world's top players choose to go with such a troop heavy list - repeatedly filling up on Dire Avengers (34 of them plus Asurmen.) He also went with Avenging strike which seems to creep up more often. I need to have a play around on TTS to try it out it seems. And paint more DAs.
Today's leaks confirmed what most probably suspected that outriders/vanguard/spearhead detachments carry a 3cp tax, so my current ulthwe batallion ec/mc spearhead/outrider will need some tailoring.
*edit* as a public service announcement if anyone is curious about TTS its heavily discounted right now on a certain gaseous-form-of-water online retailer
I'll likely watch it tomorrow, but Avenging Strike is working well for a buddy of mine. However, he run 8-10 strong units to mitigate loss of models and extend the time the DA receive the bonus.
But, being in Wave Serpents is interesting. If it is destroyed with the units inside, each unit is likely to lose a single model each, thus ensuring they ge the Avenging Strike but mitigating how much of the unit gets removed.
Also, most of the rules are linked via News and Rumors including missions, detachments and such. It will definitely help plan out armies. I'm roughly building out 1750 lists to be what a 2000 point 9th edition list would look like.
Gona stick this on at lunchtime when I get done with work so will post how it played out later. It was a "what we know about 9th" game, so with the timing of everything that leaked yesterday I'm curious if they use the leaked ruleset.
For me personally looks like I'll run an Ulthwe patrol plus EC/MS battalion to start with 10cp, first game is scheduled for August first up here.
The master crafted power swords in the leaks now have +1 Str. If that’s also the rule for 9e power swords, that should make Banshees viable in combat again.
Key differences between edition 8 and 9 that have been highlighted following the battle primer.
The obvious ones which have been previewed:
-Command phase/ CP structure - Terrain Rules - Morale - Unit coherency - Engagement range - Big Guns never Tire - Charging has to reach all of the declared against or charge fails - Hit AND wound modifiers are capped at +/- 1 - Character targeting rules - Look out sir
Other non previewed changes
- Psykers can no longer manifest psychic powers after Falling back - Units with Fly cannot shoot if fall back as far as I can see - Psykers now resolve all of their powers at once and you cannot go back to a psyker once hes finished manifesting powers and you have moved on - Rerolls are applied before modifiers. Unmodified dice are explicitly defined- result of roll after rerolls, but before modifiers (if any of either) - Disembark now wholly within 3" - Spindly bits now part of hull measurements to be "within" - Smite has no restrictions other than the 'can't go back to a psyker once you've moved on,' and an increased cost per attempt (by anyone). If a psyker can cast three powers, it can smite three times. - A slight change to Allocate Attack, "If a model in the target unit has already lost any wounds or has already had attacks allocated to it this phase, the attack must be allocated to that model." - The reroll stratagem is limted now, and can't be used on all types of dice rolls. It only works on rolls to hit, wound, damage, save, advance, charge, psychic, deny, and for number of attacks. - Heroic intervention means you can be attacked
We still don't know the costs for all the detachments sadly.
But, it seems some nerfs to the psychic but also a boon. Can no longer switch between casters to get powers of in specific orders.
But now Eldrad can cast smite potentially 4 times with +4 ? lol... (3 powers normally plus unparalleled mastery +1 from his ability after 1st cast, 1+ from seer council strat and +2 from warlock PA power) Potentialy 4 casts with a +4)
According to what was dropped yesterday detachment costs are as follows:
Patrol 2cp
Battalion 3 cp Brigade 4 cp Vanguard/Spearhead/Outrider 3cp
Supreme Command 0cp
Super Heavy 3cp
Fortification 2 cp Aux Support 1cp
Interested to see how things will pan out - as there's no need CP wise to take a troops choice you could easily make a mechanised force with just Spearhead/Outrider etc. As I said I'm keen to still run Eldrad as I spent too much time painting him not to play Ulthwe so I'm envisioning an Ulthwe Patrol with a guardian blob and max Reapers squad, then EC battalion or something like that.
Nearly all the rules are in the News and Rumors; about 130 pages worth. All detachments are there.
The Smite needs an FAQ. Warlock Conclaves could cast 3 x Smite, +3 to cast, for d6MW each cast. I really don't think that is the intent. We shall see.
Airwing Detachment is gone. Super Heavy Auxiliary disallows a LoW to get Craftworld traits, making the model actually worse. Not sure why this was done.
All Eternal War Strike Force missions have progressive objective scoring as its primary objective. Terrain is also placed after objectives are placed and terrain cannot be placed on an objective.
Turnip Jedi wrote: does the all psykers know smite mean the wraithseer can, or does it own rules explictly state not ? my 'copy' of the fw rules are on my late pc
and if so can you swap it for the witchblade power (likely worst power we have besides the ynnari nova one)
We will likely need to wait until 9th edition FW books and/or FAQ are released. For 8th edition, the Wraithseer powers were locked with the FW book powers only.
I'd go with the old saw specific rules override general rules. The smite rule is a general rule dealing with Psykers. The Seer has its own rules specific to it. So, I would say use the Seer rules rather than the general Psyker rule.
Turnip Jedi wrote: sadly appears to be the case I knew it had some particular wording regarding its powers, ho hum maybe the fw update will sort it out
@ Bchop, how did the game of many da pan out ?
John Lennon's guard got a little unlucky early game with his tanks blowing up and Nick used his skyweavers with fire and fade every turn to plink away at the rest of the army pretty safely while his 4++ Asurmen/DA blob took board control, pretty comfy win for the pointy ears. Both players in the post match emphasised the need to have something to contest the board/play the mission in 9th, and Nick's list did that pretty comfortably.
Some other feedback was that tournament players specifically are used to parking single characters in the backfield on objectives comfortably and Look Out Sir has spelled an end to that, Nick forgot about that a few times and lost a few characters as a result.
Is it just me or is anyone looking vypers with starcannons. No penalty for moving and shooting, incredibly fast, shoot into combat and tie up key units in a pinch
A lot really depends on points, but I definitely have not ruled them out.
I've got 9 about 75% painted. Working on magnetizing weapons. Looking at the primary missions, units of three Vypers may possess enough durability while still able to contribute firepower. I think they can play a role as they can reach most objectives on turn one to create pressure. A key, in my mind, is to be able to throw other units further forward in order to distract and relieve pressure from units such as Vypers. Large units such as Shining Spears, Warlock Skyrunner Conclave, Wraithguard, and/or Guardian squads as potential front line pressure units. They may be susceptible to blast weapons, but I think having some brick unit still will have merit.
With the new terrain rules, I'm hoping a squad of three Hornets with Hornet Pulse Lasers can be worked in. Obscuring terrain coupled with the Fire and Fade stratagem has me very intrigued.
After reviewing the Eternal War missions and objectives, I'm building various lists at 1750 points. Right now, it feels quite difficult to fit everything into the list.
Sarigar wrote: A lot really depends on points, but I definitely have not ruled them out.
Large units such as Shining Spears, Warlock Skyrunner Conclave, Wraithguard, and/or Guardian squads as potential front line pressure units. They may be susceptible to blast weapons, but I think having some brick unit still will have merit.st.
Given some thought to Guardian blobs out of the webway. Not seen a lot of love for them on forums/reddit but tbh if an opponent wants to level his massed power at a 3++ unit with protect/celestial shield then that sounds like a big win for me. Certainly if they're not throwing long range fire power at Dark Reapers or whatnot. The only downside is that with the changing to targetting, we don't get to pass ablative wounds onto the weapons platform anymore without risking it outright.
1750 points seems like a good benchmark. From looking at the marines points that came out it seems the heavy meta units jumped up by 60- 80% in points (TF cannons/aggressors and cents) while the lesser OP units were in the region of 15- 20%, so perhaps taking something like Vypers which flew under the rader somewhat might be a good value proposition.
I had good success with vypers at the end of 8th, as long as the price stays low they should still be good.
Not sure I agree with everything here but definitely worth a watch.
https://youtu.be/OXzeFg5q7uQ
kingheff wrote: I had good success with vypers at the end of 8th, as long as the price stays low they should still be good.
Not sure I agree with everything here but definitely worth a watch.
https://youtu.be/OXzeFg5q7uQ
Thanks for the vid. Watching a similar Art Of War summation today, they envisioned max numbers of semi resilient obseq troops, something like 6 x 6 dire avengers and playing objective, objective, objective. That many footsloggers seems to fly in the face of a lot of the 8th meta, so I'd be keen to see if their prediction holds true.
Nick does like to play weird style lists so what works for him doesn't always work for everyone.
I've been thinking about serpents packed with axe blades for our best midfield grabbers and holders, but as with everything until we see the new points it's hard to make many judgements.
kingheff wrote: Nick does like to play weird style lists so what works for him doesn't always work for everyone.
I've been thinking about serpents packed with axe blades for our best midfield grabbers and holders, but as with everything until we see the new points it's hard to make many judgements.
Thanks. I will watch it shortly. Speaking of Wraithblades, that is exactly the unit I am finishing up. Need the resin base order to come in before doing their bases.
TT was an interesting video. I've been playing a skew list and definitely had those extremely uneven matchups, but they were somewhat rare and I would fare fairly well in games and tourneys (8th edition).
For 9th, I feel more confident taking what they would consider an all comers list. I think 3 x Vypers could serve in a similar fashion as 1 x Wave Serpent. Master of Concealment and Protect on a unit of Vypers puts them at a 1+ save. Units like this backed up with Wave Serpent(s) make me fairly comfortable handling the Primary Objectives.
I do not agree with the small DA squads for what TT claimed to use them for. If one is comfortable with taking an additional detachment, I still feel Harlequins are better suited to handle the Primary Objectives opposed to DA.
I am still somewhat pondering the secondary objectives. TT claimed Craftworlds excelled at it. This is the more difficult of the two for me to figure out. Thoughts?
DivineVisitor wrote: We reckon every army will have a Supreme Commander unit? Surely the Avatar of Khaine should be the Craftworld Eldar Supreme Commander?
Might actually encourage GW to inject him with the same steroids the Greater Daemons got and get a new plastic release for him.
It'd be nice to see the avatar getting an airing, as right now supreme command is simply the "where you puts your primarch" detachmant. Outside of specific boxes i.e. banshees/janizar it seems GW are keen not to acknowledge the backlog of finecast skeletons in their closets. I think they know they'd have to do all the aspect warriors at once or face making some even more irrelevant. That said Eldar seem to be a very visible faction in the meta, perhaps that makes them bankable enough to redo the parts of the range that need a touch up.
As far as the TT video is concerned I thought their point about firing low ap stock weapons (bolt pistol) before levelling high value weapons (melta) was useful. If we can't vary who takes the wounds then the decision whether to allocate to an exarch/weapons platform is going to be really important.
Argive wrote: Do we know if in the new paradigm RO3 is still a thing?
I have heard it is in the Tournament Book of Chapter Approved.
It is on the first page of the Eternal War Mission Pack of the main rulebook.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is shaping up to be a TAC style list with 9th edition in mind. The majority of points is Craftworld with Harlequin support. I'm still not quite decided on Masque or Craftworld traits and still reviewing the new Harlequin rules. I don't think it hits overly hard, but can get to and root out objectives for the Primary missions.
Some initial thoughts would be to give the Spiritseer Faolchu's Wing so he can ensure adequate range for the Wraithguard to get rerolls. He and Wraithblades are in the Wave Serpent. The Death Jester can target units to deny Overwatch, which appears to work for the Wraithblades (unless an FAQ changes it). I plan for the Skyweavers to be the early game aggressive unit trying to allow for my other units to set up. Vypers and Troupes will go in tandem to various objectives, hopefully able to ensure staying within Shadowseer range.
Secondary missions is a bit of a mystery until I can get some games in.
Possible both will be good. Lack of fly and, relative, lack of speed looks the biggest weaknesses but being able to take two bigger guns and the invulnerable are definite benefits.
So this morning I finished painting my 10 dark reapers that have been on the to do list for a while. I'm having a wee bit of a difficult time sticking them in a list for 9th though. The main issue for me is that if I were to take vehicle mounted heavies (maybe a wraithlord/ or probably war walker) then I can still shoot in combat when I'm charged. That said a lot of 9e playtesters are running trip nightspinners who suffer from the same problem, so maybe I'm overworrying.
I initially thought about 2 x units of 5 with tempest launcher exarchs, as non-los shooting is pretty good in 9th. That said if I take a unit of 9 I avoid the worst of the blast mechanics and for 2 cp I can feigned retreat to fall back and shoot. If I park them on defensible terrain I can also overwatch on 5s, and the larger unit can be guided for maximum efficiency. I'm also considering a flamer/fist cheap wraithlord parked on top of my reapers just to discourage smash captains and their ilk. Is that just dead points?
Anyone going to be including reapers? I've put a bit of time into the paint job so would feel pretty awful parking them on a shelf.
The biggest potential drawback I can see is their lack of speed. If there's a lot of line of sight blocking they could get outmanoeuvred unless there's a nice place they can for and fade back behind. I think it'll take a few games playing with the new terrain rules will show whether non fly units lose out on too much.
