bullyboy wrote: I'm not sure what you're going with in regards to the DA and WotP. A 5 man DA sqd is so easy to remove, there is no unit left for you to be able to return a model. It can't just resurrect the exarch by itslef, there has to be a unit left and that won't happen.
A 5 man unit is also fairly easy to hide behind some 5" terrain.
Also, running 3 units of DA is not the overarching play of the list. The plan is to hide them until later turns to cap backfield objectives by which point there hopefully wont be enough firepower to remove them.
I think his point was more that, in that kind of list, there's no point to word of the phoenix. One of the other powers would be more useful.
Like what? You will always be smiting and gaze of ynnead anyway. Word of the phoenix is the next thing after that an nice to have in your back pocket but cserainly not something you base your game strategy around 15 dire avengers.
Argive wrote: Like what? You will always be smiting and gaze of ynnead anyway. Word of the phoenix is the next thing after that an nice to have in your back pocket but cserainly not something you base your game strategy around 15 dire avengers.
Shield, giving all those avengers a 5++, might be more useful. Unbind souls against a unit you need dead (in an army that should be focusing on melee fighting anyway) isn't a terrible idea either. WotP will only bring one avenger back to life, which isn't nothing, but the 5++ possibly works out better depending on what is attacking you.
But you're right, you're likely smiting and gazing anyway, so it's not like it matters much.
Argive wrote: Like what? You will always be smiting and gaze of ynnead anyway. Word of the phoenix is the next thing after that an nice to have in your back pocket but cserainly not something you base your game strategy around 15 dire avengers.
Shield, giving all those avengers a 5++, might be more useful. Unbind souls against a unit you need dead (in an army that should be focusing on melee fighting anyway) isn't a terrible idea either. WotP will only bring one avenger back to life, which isn't nothing, but the 5++ possibly works out better depending on what is attacking you.
But you're right, you're likely smiting and gazing anyway, so it's not like it matters much.
Ive played with 3x8 storm guardians previously and to be honest when I took the shield power I rarely ended up using it. WOTP seems much more useful.
Battle fortune gives the exarch a 2W body with 4++ anyway and just for 5pts per unit you can give them shimemrshields but again I think battle fortune to tank plus a cheeky revive in the back pocket seems like the better play.
The only point of taking ynnari is to have wraithseers with lost shroud, lord of rebirth (also I like mirror gaze as additional relic).
I think potentially banshees would work well but every other unit just benefits far more from CWE traits and buffs more than ynnari.
Sadly running 48pt squads of stormies isint an option anymore.
I need to actually sit down and read the rules properly.
I wasn't even aware that you cant get refunded for a spearhead if your warlolrd is in it. I assumed it was any detachment.
I have two different builds (the two standard ones you see):
Ynnari Wraithseer with relic - All damage halved, 5++/5+++. With or without the D-Cannon, its pretty decent and hard to kill.
Sniper Wraithseer - D-Cannon, Mark of the Hunter, able to snipe characters. More fragile (but still a 5++).
I'm wondering what the thoughts are at the moment on these guys. I have two lists I'm trying to decide between, and the final decision depends on which Wraithseer detachment I take.
Either it's a Ynnari detachment with Yvraine, Wraithseer, and some Wraithblades, with Yvraine healing the wraithblades and throwing out smites and the Wraithseer being a beatstick soaking up hits.
OR its a craftworld detachment, with a farseer and wraithblades and rangers. Rangers and wraithseer acting as a backfield sniper unit, and the farseer and wraithblades can sit on something midfield.
Ynnari feels a little bit like a tax though... but it depends on how much better that wraithseer actually is.
As mentioned on your army list thread, I think hands down Ynanri for wraith seer.
I always run 2 wraith seers - One with lost shroud
One with Lord of rebirth and Mirrorgaze
The CWE snipy option might be useful now with EC and the fact he no longer gets -1 for moving. That was a big one why I ceased to go with that build. Might be worth revisit
Still id probably just run him with a single star cannon. 2x -3 D3 dmg shots with rerolls are usuly enough to drop a low tier character. Its unlikely you will be in range/ kill anything with a decent invuln (like a sm captain) in one round of shooting even with a d-cannon. Having rangers as back up can work but again I always struggled to bring all that dakka against same target due to deployment/terrain. Therefore I dont think its viable build.
I tried it with Illic night spear and a reaper launcher Autarch + 3 x5 ranger squads but still struggled to kill stuff reliably to make it a viable strategy. Certainly not for any semi competitive environment. But if you juts playing random games its probably going to be good fun.
Argive wrote: As mentioned on your army list thread, I think hands down Ynanri for wraith seer.
I always run 2 wraith seers - One with lost shroud
One with Lord of rebirth and Mirrorgaze
The CWE snipy option might be useful now with EC and the fact he no longer gets -1 for moving. That was a big one why I ceased to go with that build. Might be worth revisit
Still id probably just run him with a single star cannon. 2x -3 D3 dmg shots with rerolls are usuly enough to drop a low tier character. Its unlikely you will be in range/ kill anything with a decent invuln (like a sm captain) in one round of shooting even with a d-cannon. Having rangers as back up can work but again I always struggled to bring all that dakka against same target due to deployment/terrain. Therefore I dont think its viable build.
I tried it with Illic night spear and a reaper launcher Autarch + 3 x5 ranger squads but still struggled to kill stuff reliably to make it a viable strategy. Certainly not for any semi competitive environment. But if you juts playing random games its probably going to be good fun.
Very good points all round. In theory I thought the snipers (especially with the crusade buff of doing mortals on 5+ instead of 6+) would be a decent pick compared to the alternatives (none of the craftworld troops really did much for this list anyway).
I'm pretty much sold on moving the Wraithseer back to Ynnari. I'm actually tempted to swap Yvraine for a Yncarne as well, which might be a bad idea but... I dunno, just sounds funny. I would prefer the craftworlds avatar for the model, but I think Yncarne is better (and fulfills my ynnari hq tax as well).
Shimmershield seems fairly useless on DA since the kind of weapons that will be shooting at that will either be ap 0 or -1 and will usually be of an intense high RoF. So far, my DA have all been shot at by things like Wyverns, ABR's, twin-linked Devourers etc where a Shimmershield would just be wasted points.
You're better off keeping them super cheap or maximizing damage output as much as possible. If your opponent is deciding to shoot mass plasma at your DA then you're probably in a good position anyway.
Bosskelot wrote: Shimmershield seems fairly useless on DA since the kind of weapons that will be shooting at that will either be ap 0 or -1 and will usually be of an intense high RoF. So far, my DA have all been shot at by things like Wyverns, ABR's, twin-linked Devourers etc where a Shimmershield would just be wasted points.
You're better off keeping them super cheap or maximizing damage output as much as possible. If your opponent is deciding to shoot mass plasma at your DA then you're probably in a good position anyway.
This is the general approach to using DA in practice.
Keep them as cheap as possible and keep them safe as much as possible (mine are usually transported in Serpents).
If the enemy wastes high strength shots on them, he/she already has made something wrong. Good for your army.
I'm thinking of 10 man guardians in Wave serpents as they're cheaper wounds per points and celestial shield makes them kind of sturdy in a pinch. Now, am i right assuming that a unit with a weapons platform can't enter a serpent? The platform doesn't have the infantry keyword as far as i can tell...
The platform has the infantry keyword. The Guardian Defender entry has a set of keywords for the heavy weapon platform (p93). The platform can be placed in a Wave Serpent.
grouchoben wrote:I think 6 MSUDA is a pretty nice pick too, but I'm unsure that meets the threshold for bothering with Asurmen @160pts frankly. I think I'd rather keep with the 4++ Exarch power at that point and take more haywire, seeing how MSU avengers will be pretty spread out anyway... In fact that looks like quite a nice list for the Yncarne to do her thing in...
I believe all that discussion about Nick (didn't watch the game) was 10-man DAs since he was hoping to lose 1 to maximise shots back. 5-man DAs are better with Bladestorm.
Is the Yncarne a good option right now? I've been debating making her my next paint project (slow hobby painter) and I also usually do Aspects.
ClockworkZion wrote:
I feel a single Guardian blob for holding a backfield objective (horde it up to 20 models, raise the banners and take some high RoF weapon platforms for Overwatch is basically my plan) since we can easily toss a 4++ on it and leave it unsupported compared to much of the rest of the army.
Hmmm thanks for the point.
ClockworkZion wrote:
Striking Scorpions and Rangers are a bit higher on my list, Rangers can grab an objective turn 1 and Scorpions can pop up mid to late game to bull a chaffe unit off a backfield objective to claim some points (or just deny some).
Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders both have nice deep strike options and can do some decent work in shooting as well, which could help hit the enemy in places they less expect it and allow us to take objectives, or just drop into table quarters and hold ground for VP.
Are you thinking 1x5 Rangers or more?
Think 2 x 5 of each SW, WSs would be a not un-wise option to try? I'm a fan of aspects so trying to make what I own work (casual competative).
The Yncarne is one of the saving graces of 9e for us - she only went up 10pts but is vastly improved.
I've been running her in nearly every Eldar list for the past 6 months, and really, I think she might be the best unit we have now.
The two big buffs she received are: the general objective-centred nature of 9e where units must stand and fight in pockets across the board, in order to score at the top of the turn; and heroic intervention is now back on the menu, meaning she can appear on the death of a unit, within 3" of an enemy unit, and intervene into them in your opponent's turn. That's an unprecendented amount of movement and threat!
Even factoring out the definite element of 'gotcha' she represents to an opponent who isn't experienced against a well-piloted Yncarne, she still poses threats to objectives across the board, and if you can keep the unit alive until the final turns of the game, she dominates.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Finally, she pairs well with msu (higher opportunity to teleport), fast moving units that disperse across the board (like bikes and transports) and a dispersed mechdar list (like 3 walkers, 3 vypers). As luck would have it, these are very common elements in CWE lists right now.
grouchoben wrote: The Yncarne is one of the saving graces of 9e for us - she only went up 10pts but is vastly improved.
I've been running her in nearly every Eldar list for the past 6 months, and really, I think she might be the best unit we have now.
The two big buffs she received are: the general objective-centred nature of 9e where units must stand and fight in pockets across the board, in order to score at the top of the turn; and heroic intervention is now back on the menu, meaning she can appear on the death of a unit, within 3" of an enemy unit, and intervene into them in your opponent's turn. That's an unprecendented amount of movement and threat!
Even factoring out the definite element of 'gotcha' she represents to an opponent who isn't experienced against a well-piloted Yncarne, she still poses threats to objectives across the board, and if you can keep the unit alive until the final turns of the game, she dominates.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Finally, she pairs well with msu (higher opportunity to teleport), fast moving units that disperse across the board (like bikes and transports) and a dispersed mechdar list (like 3 walkers, 3 vypers). As luck would have it, these are very common elements in CWE lists right now.
Oh man that is an amazing explanation thank kindly! Glad i primed her yesterday
You can drop her in to any Aeldari detachment as an HQ, but it does normally block the use of special characters like the Solitaire or Drazhar.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Finally, one of the most satisfying things about the unit is how high the ceiling is, and how low the floor is, when piloting her. The Yncarne needs lots of practice, you have to learn when to commit, when to hide, what her best targets are, and what your priorities are. She plays a bit like the queen in chess - outrageously aggressive, best movement in the game, your opponent has to bear her in mind at all times, and when you suddenly lose her (probably through over-commiting her) you feel like the game has grown a little dimmer and mundane in how it plays ...
I've always wanted to try out the yncarne but she's always looked like a big investment points wise. Plus she looks like she's easy to play wrong and waste her potential by getting her in a bad position and losing her cheaply. Maybe I'll try her out on TTS. Are there any good tutorials for her on YouTube?
That is an awesome Yncarne. Definitely one of my favorite models to play. Her ability gives her so much presence, really changes up the feel of the game. She's not the easiest model to play, but she can do crazy stuff and she hits like a truck. IMO she's one of the fluffiest datasheets and she perfectly captures the eldar playstyle.
Can't be sure dude, but they've been amazing for a while now, and just got a lot better through no minus to hit when moving, and considering the meta will be Nurgle, Marines and Custodes, they're in the sweetspot.
As for EC, yeah it's still top dog. Most lists will be EC+your personal flavour.
grouchoben wrote: The Yncarne is one of the saving graces of 9e for us - she only went up 10pts but is vastly improved.
I've been running her in nearly every Eldar list for the past 6 months, and really, I think she might be the best unit we have now.
The two big buffs she received are: the general objective-centred nature of 9e where units must stand and fight in pockets across the board, in order to score at the top of the turn; and heroic intervention is now back on the menu, meaning she can appear on the death of a unit, within 3" of an enemy unit, and intervene into them in your opponent's turn. That's an unprecendented amount of movement and threat!
Even factoring out the definite element of 'gotcha' she represents to an opponent who isn't experienced against a well-piloted Yncarne, she still poses threats to objectives across the board, and if you can keep the unit alive until the final turns of the game, she dominates.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Finally, she pairs well with msu (higher opportunity to teleport), fast moving units that disperse across the board (like bikes and transports) and a dispersed mechdar list (like 3 walkers, 3 vypers). As luck would have it, these are very common elements in CWE lists right now.
Excellent breakdown sir.
Also that paint job is gorgeous.
How does it work with the restriction rules? Can it come on t1 if something dies? Also rangers and scorpions. Ive been reading the brb but i can figure out what falls under the restriction. We have things like webway strike etc.
Hey thanks Argive. I always start the unit on the table T1, so to be honest I have no idea I'm afraid. But yes, as it stands, she can start hopping all over the board from T1 – although often that's a shady prospect!
grouchoben wrote: Hey thanks Argive. I always start the unit on the table T1, so to be honest I have no idea I'm afraid. But yes, as it stands, she can start hopping all over the board from T1 – although often that's a shady prospect!
Yeah I was thinking of switching to the yncarne instead of yvraine towards the end of 8th for my wraithseer detatchement. It would be awesome if he becomes a supreme commander.
Whats the current ruling on abiltiies like warp spiders/ striking scorpions and webway strike strat. Are these still restricted to T2? There's the new keywords but some units seem not to have that.
I dont have the newest CA so not sure if this is explained.
I played mission 1, Strike Force, 2000 points today against a Blood Angel dreadnought heavy list. Overall, I won based on the primary objectives. I'm still having issues with secondaries. Engage on All Fronts is my go to and can get ok points. I need to review Raise the Flag, as I earned very few points (maybe played it incorrectly). I took one of the psychic action ones, but never even tried it, earning 0 points.
I did try two separate custom Craftworld detachments. Savage Blades and Hunters of Ancient Relics worked fantastically with Wraithblades, and Avatar, and Shining Spears. I also had a Wraithseer in that detachment, but was very underwhelmed.
Shifting my army from a lot of shooting to a mix of assault and shooting felt more workable as the fight is really at the objectives. Spears with the +1 charge and Avatar for the reroll is quite useful. The Avatar actually is quite a brute in assault. I may try out making him the Warlord and having the deny overwatch Warlord Trait. His fearless bubble helps all friendly Asuryani, so different Craftworld traits in different detachments are not a hindrance.
Lessons learned: play for primary objectives, Seer Council stratagem is still very useful, assault capability is quite necessary, and I still suck with secondaries.
Sarigar wrote: I played mission 1, Strike Force, 2000 points today against a Blood Angel dreadnought heavy list. Overall, I won based on the primary objectives. I'm still having issues with secondaries. Engage on All Fronts is my go to and can get ok points. I need to review Raise the Flag, as I earned very few points (maybe played it incorrectly). I took one of the psychic action ones, but never even tried it, earning 0 points.
I did try two separate custom Craftworld detachments. Savage Blades and Hunters of Ancient Relics worked fantastically with Wraithblades, and Avatar, and Shining Spears. I also had a Wraithseer in that detachment, but was very underwhelmed.
Shifting my army from a lot of shooting to a mix of assault and shooting felt more workable as the fight is really at the objectives. Spears with the +1 charge and Avatar for the reroll is quite useful. The Avatar actually is quite a brute in assault. I may try out making him the Warlord and having the deny overwatch Warlord Trait. His fearless bubble helps all friendly Asuryani, so different Craftworld traits in different detachments are not a hindrance.
Lessons learned: play for primary objectives, Seer Council stratagem is still very useful, assault capability is quite necessary, and I still suck with secondaries.
Wouldn't he be better off with seer of shifting vector or an extra wound?
Overwatch seems like such a novelty
kingheff wrote: I've always liked the +2 movement for the avatar, makes him decently mobile.
Me too! And with the plethora of CP we can now have, it's more feasible to repeatedly trigger the 3cp avatar resurgent strat. I used to run him a lot with storm guardian blobs, haven't given him a spin in 9e yet.
So I’m flipping through the Corsair rules in the 9th errata, and it seems like maybe they got a little better with 9th?
With a 2000 point game giving out 12 command points, you could, in theory, have a Corsair detachment and the only thing you’re missing out on is the command points from that detachment, which doesn’t seem like such a big deal to me. Am I missing something else?
I’d be tempted to run:
1x Dark Eldar or Craftworlds patrol detachment (No loss of CP because of warlord)
1x Corsair Battalion detachment (-3 command points)
At 2000 points I’m still left with 9 command points to spend during the game.
In a perfect world I could run a pure Corsair army with a Corsair warlord, but at least Corsairs aren’t a downright hindrance anymore, right?
I suspect they are going to legends to be honest. They don't have any HQ choices and I'm pretty sure they stopped you using the ynarri characters instead.
So unless I'm missing something I think you can only take them in auxillary detachments I'm afraid.
kingheff wrote: I suspect they are going to legends to be honest. They don't have any HQ choices and I'm pretty sure they stopped you using the ynarri characters instead.
So unless I'm missing something I think you can only take them in auxillary detachments I'm afraid.
Per the 9th edition FW Index: Xenos errata, corsair units (Cloud Dancer Band, Reaver Band, Skyreaver Band) gain:
Corsairs: So long as your warlord is Aeldari, you can include this unit in a Patrol, Battalion, or Outrider Detachment even if that that detachment contains no HQ units. However, if you do so, this Detachment's command benefits are changed to "None".
Additionally, you can use Falcons and Venoms as transports that drop their second faction keyword and gain the Coterie keyword with the same stipulation as above.
Honestly, the biggest downside seems to be that you can't also take things like Wasps, Hornets, etc... In the same way. Which, to be fair, is pretty brutal.
It is strange the way they wrote the Corsairs. For instance, they actually put in a Death Korps of Krieg army list in the Index: AM that specified what units you could take and how to take them (by replacing keywords), but they didn't do that with Corsairs.
Here's hoping that the Corsairs are brought back in some capacity if they ever redo plastic guardians...
That's really cool, thanks for that info. Might be tempted to run my kitbashed/rogue trader models corsairs in a fun game at some point rather than as storm guardians as I have been.
Has anyone worked out a use for howling banshees yet? I play Iybraesil, so they're kind of my faction's most iconic unit. It would be nice to find a niche for them without feeling like I'm paying a tax for the sake of fluff.
In 8th, they were pretty good at shutting down non-flying vehicles or turning off overwatch before I charged in a harder-hitting melee unit. In 9th, overwatch is less of a thing, and tanks can just gun the banshees down while in melee with them. It doesn't seem fluffy or cost-effective to use them as suicide missiles that force tanks to shoot at them for a turn.
If I send them against a hard target, they just seem to bounce off, but if I send them against a squishy target , it rarely feels like they were worth their points or their seats in the expensive wave serpent they rode in on.
I've tried buffing them with a warlock and Doom to try and turn larger units into an off-brand melee hammer. It sooort of works, but it functionally adds a ton of points to their cost, and failing either psychic power really hurts them.
Any uses for them come to mind? Maybe I can just use them to sprint towards objectives and murder cheap objective holders before instantly dying the next turn? With the way objectives are laid out in 9th edition missions, I might be able to do that without buying them a serpent.
Afraid not dude, and I was running 3x5 in a few competitions at the end of 8e. They got slamdunked with the points hike and the obsolescence. You could still run them with expert crafters, giving the exarch piercing strike. That makes a squad reasonably dangerous to gravis, hqs, etc, because you essentially get 2 S7 -3 D3 attacks, rerolling one hit and wound, plus ... some chaff. That worked quite well on them before. Now they're priced fairly high, those chaff need to pull their weight and they just don't whatsoever. Sorry, fresh out of ideas.
Gotta agree with Groucho unfortunately. The only slight bonus is that with a proper 9th ed table infantry don't necessarily need transports so you could splash in a couple of squads and hide them to keep them going until late game to clear out objectives.
They are still crazily fast which is something of a bonus when it comes to getting into the opponent's deployment zone for certain secondaries I guess.
Niiru wrote: So, if I'm reading it right, Shadow Spectres now get their prism rifles for free. Meaning a unit of 3 goes from 126 points, to 81 points?
Shadow spectres at 81 points for 3... good?
Nah.. without stacking modifers they are just 1W t3 infantry without an invuln with a 16" gun priced higher than an intercessor... They will die. And die easily.
I run them as alitoic in 8th and they did really well as -2 base with option for -3/-4 with the flamer or guided the prism blaster on exarch worked really well. They seemed like what the warp spiders should be.
Their saving grace was their movement as well. They were left alone completely allowed to harass or they soaked up a huge amount of firepower providing.
27 points per T3 wound is insanely bad. Less insanely bad than 42 points per wound, but still awful. Better to use swooping hawks or striking scorpions to fulfill that role.
slave.entity wrote: 27 points per T3 wound is insanely bad. Less insanely bad than 42 points per wound, but still awful. Better to use swooping hawks or striking scorpions to fulfill that role.
Hell, 5 Striking Scorpions with Claw and +1 to mandiblasters and expert crafters can punch through 5 intercessors. And they are 75 points...
Sorry if I missed this elsewhere on this forum but I'm confused by the changes to "Look out sir" (cant target <10 wound character models if it is within 3 inches of a 10+ wound monster/vehicle)
If my Wraithlord (10 wounds) is guarding Eldrad, and subsequently falls below his 10 starting wounds, is Eldrad then targetable? The Faq doesn't specify.
kingheff wrote: Gotta agree with Groucho unfortunately. The only slight bonus is that with a proper 9th ed table infantry don't necessarily need transports so you could splash in a couple of squads and hide them to keep them going until late game to clear out objectives.
They are still crazily fast which is something of a bonus when it comes to getting into the opponent's deployment zone for certain secondaries I guess.
Drat. I'll probably keep using them in my casual meta for fluff's sake, but that's too bad. :\
slave.entity wrote: 27 points per T3 wound is insanely bad. Less insanely bad than 42 points per wound, but still awful. Better to use swooping hawks or striking scorpions to fulfill that role.
Hell, 5 Striking Scorpions with Claw and +1 to mandiblasters and expert crafters can punch through 5 intercessors. And they are 75 points...
slave.entity wrote: 27 points per T3 wound is insanely bad. Less insanely bad than 42 points per wound, but still awful. Better to use swooping hawks or striking scorpions to fulfill that role.
Hell, 5 Striking Scorpions with Claw and +1 to mandiblasters and expert crafters can punch through 5 intercessors. And they are 75 points...
Can they though ?
Probably? 5 mandiblasters that do mortals on a 5+ would do about 1.67 mortal wounds on average. The exarch gets 3 attacks, misses with one, and rerolls it into a hit on a 3+. With those (let's assume) 3 hits, he'll wound on a 3+, so he'll wound twice and then probably reroll the failure into a wound for 3 wounds at ap -3, and each wound that gets through will average 2 damage. So sloppy math says the mandis and exarch attacks alone will kill most of the squad on their own, and then you've got 8 more attacks to clean up with.
EDIT: Oh. And that's without factoring in shooting.
But that math is sloppy and generous to the scorps.
slave.entity wrote: 27 points per T3 wound is insanely bad. Less insanely bad than 42 points per wound, but still awful. Better to use swooping hawks or striking scorpions to fulfill that role.
Hell, 5 Striking Scorpions with Claw and +1 to mandiblasters and expert crafters can punch through 5 intercessors. And they are 75 points...
Can they though ?
Probably? 5 mandiblasters that do mortals on a 5+ would do about 1.67 mortal wounds on average. The exarch gets 3 attacks, misses with one, and rerolls it into a hit on a 3+. With those (let's assume) 3 hits, he'll wound on a 3+, so he'll wound twice and then probably reroll the failure into a wound for 3 wounds at ap -3, and each wound that gets through will average 2 damage. So sloppy math says the mandis and exarch attacks alone will kill most of the squad on their own, and then you've got 8 more attacks to clean up with.
EDIT: Oh. And that's without factoring in shooting.
But that math is sloppy and generous to the scorps.
5 mandiblasters doing mortals on a 5+ is 1.67 mortals.
3 scorpion claw attacks = 2 hits, reroll the miss into 2.67 hits, wounding on 3+ means you get 1.78 wounds, reroll the 0.89 fails into another 0.5963 wounds for a total of 2.3763, 6+ armor saves lower that to 1.98025 unsaved wounds, average 2 (d3) damage means 3.9605 damage.
8 chainsword attacks = 5.36 hits, wounding on 4+ means 2.68 wounds, 3+ save means 0.893 unsaved wounds
So 1.67 + 3.9605 + 0.893 = 6.5235 damage.
And then shooting, assuming 4 pistols and and a shuriken catapult...
6 shots hitting on 3s = 4 hits, 4 hits means 2 wounds, 1/3rd of those wounds will be a 6+ meaning 0.67 wounds at AP-3 and 1.33 wounds at AP 0 means 0.5583 + 0.4333 = 1.002 unsaved wounds.
Oh, but then expert crafters gives us another .67 hits = 0.335 + 0.1675 = 0.5025 wounds. But I"m getting too tired to calculate how many unsaved wounds that turns into.
So if I didn't mess that up (I might have; it's late here), then it looks like EC scorpions with a claw and the 5+ mandiblaster power can do roughly 7.5255 damage plus however much more you get from those 0.5025 EC reroll shooting wounds. Probably a bit more if you're in range to swap a pistol shot for a grenade. The above is still sloppy; I rounded after a few decimal points, and I'm probably not properly accounting for the likelihood of some of the claw damage overkilling a single model, but we're looking at about 3 or 4 dead intercessors .
So you're not quite clearing them in a single turn. I wouldn't count on scorpions to reliably wipe out a squad of intercessors then, but that's not terrible for their price tag. Granted, this assumes you get 5 scorpions into melee unscathed.
You might even attack Intercessors in cover for more reliable hitting. EC is a PITA in napkin statistics, though, when i'm bored enough and work is low i might just make a spreadsheet
In general though i think Scorpions are a solid pick atm. They're cheap enough, can score several secondaries (mostly engage on all fronts through deepstrike or raise banners) and pretty tanky for their price with stalker and cover (masters of concealment anyone?). A large unit (prly 9 to dodge blast) with scorpion's sting is an actual threat even when they can't fight first they'll do an average 3 MW at the start of the fight phase.
Well, in view of the battle report https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmdVCMoV130 one lesson is that one should be able to score early in the game.
The Eldar player had a 10 men unit of Wraithblade as a death star unit that was quite fearsome,
while the two units of Wraithguard approached along a flank.
My list above is quite similar, the Skyweavers could score early in the game.
The enemy will need a lot of fire power to remove them.
In the meanwhile the rest of the army will get prepared for the mid and end game.
As much as I like winters SEO his reports are more narrative as opposed to competitive. I'd be careful drawing too many conclusions from his videos.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Don't get me wrong though, a unit of ten axe blades is surprisingly mobile with quicken or with buffs to charge out of deepstrike but 400 PTS is still a massive investment and if your opponent just screens with chaff you can end up getting a pretty poor return on your big investment.
I don't see a viable alternative to wraithblades in staying power. They're just 13* points for a t6 3+/4++ wound. Add protect and fortune, maybe masters of concealment or cover and there's no way they get shot off efficiently. The issue is the old Eldar crux, though: fail a few psychic tests or get denied and it's kinda game over. From there we have to kill the enemy's öargest threats to our ability to score. And for that we have decent options, i just dislike it as plan A.
Axe Guard are great, and can reliably get Fortune cast on them, but Protect is often harder. I am using Wrath of the Dead and Hunters of Hidden Relics since they plan to babysit objectives.
Wyldhunt wrote: Has anyone worked out a use for howling banshees yet? I play Iybraesil, so they're kind of my faction's most iconic unit. It would be nice to find a niche for them without feeling like I'm paying a tax for the sake of fluff.
In 8th, they were pretty good at shutting down non-flying vehicles or turning off overwatch before I charged in a harder-hitting melee unit. In 9th, overwatch is less of a thing, and tanks can just gun the banshees down while in melee with them. It doesn't seem fluffy or cost-effective to use them as suicide missiles that force tanks to shoot at them for a turn.
If I send them against a hard target, they just seem to bounce off, but if I send them against a squishy target , it rarely feels like they were worth their points or their seats in the expensive wave serpent they rode in on.
I've tried buffing them with a warlock and Doom to try and turn larger units into an off-brand melee hammer. It sooort of works, but it functionally adds a ton of points to their cost, and failing either psychic power really hurts them.
Any uses for them come to mind? Maybe I can just use them to sprint towards objectives and murder cheap objective holders before instantly dying the next turn? With the way objectives are laid out in 9th edition missions, I might be able to do that without buying them a serpent.
I have 2 squads of 10 in wave serpents in a ynnari list. Their stats aren't impressive I agree, but they always manage to do work. The wound rerolls from ynnari help out a lot with their strength problem. I leave them with war shout (because ynnari has to, for some reason) and that makes them stick around for a while against non-melee units. Usually vehicles have trouble clearing them in melee, cause you're turning off blast and stuff. Everyone is always surprised by how fast the move, so they manage to get past screens.
it looks like their power swords will be +1 str based on the vanguard marines data sheet. Making them str 4 is a big deal. With that they'll be viable imo.
Assuming that that's not just because they're "Astartes power swords" of course.
Good to hear they're working for you though, sticking with an unfashionable unit isn't always masochistic, there's often uses even for less optimal tools.
Wyldhunt wrote: Has anyone worked out a use for howling banshees yet? I play Iybraesil, so they're kind of my faction's most iconic unit. It would be nice to find a niche for them without feeling like I'm paying a tax for the sake of fluff.
In 8th, they were pretty good at shutting down non-flying vehicles or turning off overwatch before I charged in a harder-hitting melee unit. In 9th, overwatch is less of a thing, and tanks can just gun the banshees down while in melee with them. It doesn't seem fluffy or cost-effective to use them as suicide missiles that force tanks to shoot at them for a turn.
If I send them against a hard target, they just seem to bounce off, but if I send them against a squishy target , it rarely feels like they were worth their points or their seats in the expensive wave serpent they rode in on.
I've tried buffing them with a warlock and Doom to try and turn larger units into an off-brand melee hammer. It sooort of works, but it functionally adds a ton of points to their cost, and failing either psychic power really hurts them.
Any uses for them come to mind? Maybe I can just use them to sprint towards objectives and murder cheap objective holders before instantly dying the next turn? With the way objectives are laid out in 9th edition missions, I might be able to do that without buying them a serpent.
I have 2 squads of 10 in wave serpents in a ynnari list. Their stats aren't impressive I agree, but they always manage to do work. The wound rerolls from ynnari help out a lot with their strength problem. I leave them with war shout (because ynnari has to, for some reason) and that makes them stick around for a while against non-melee units. Usually vehicles have trouble clearing them in melee, cause you're turning off blast and stuff. Everyone is always surprised by how fast the move, so they manage to get past screens.
it looks like their power swords will be +1 str based on the vanguard marines data sheet. Making them str 4 is a big deal. With that they'll be viable imo.
Considering their likely targets get an extra wound while they likely dont get any extra attacks or damage? Probably not.
Will see. Its painful to watch this edition unfold but at least vypers, war walkers and weapons platforms can screen characters again. Thank god.
I've been playing World Eater/Chaos Knight soup a lot recently, and I went back to Banshees the other night for a game on TTS. Jeez, talk about going from riches to rags...
Their only saving grace is their speed, but 9e leverages survivability (holding) and burst damage (taking), of which they have neither.
Standard primaris are confirmed to stay at 2 wounds from the edge of silence data sheets, so it's likely just vets going up. I imagine most people will still use intercessors, so the marine match up only gets easier with that change.
footfoe wrote: Standard primaris are confirmed to stay at 2 wounds from the edge of silence data sheets, so it's likely just vets going up. I imagine most people will still use intercessors, so the marine match up only gets easier with that change.
Confirmed all marines going to 2 W.
I am not lookign forward to chewing through DG marines.. or blightlords..
Jeeseus... 2 W khorne berserkers...
I mean... I don't even know what they going to have to do in order to let us compete. Its going to have to be obnoxious or we just have to wait this one out and hope for next edition...
It looks like another year of marine meta.
footfoe wrote: Standard primaris are confirmed to stay at 2 wounds from the edge of silence data sheets, so it's likely just vets going up. I imagine most people will still use intercessors, so the marine match up only gets easier with that change.
Confirmed all marines going to 2 W.
I am not lookign forward to chewing through DG marines.. or blightlords..
Jeeseus... 2 W khorne berserkers...
I mean... I don't even know what they going to have to do in order to let us compete. Its going to have to be obnoxious or we just have to wait this one out and hope for next edition...
It looks like another year of marine meta.
This definitely doesn't bode well for Xenos races. I was super hype to play in the 9th edition with my renewed first love Eldar army. First the Flyer hit then this, oof. They turned an uphill battle into a straight up battle with a 90 degree incline.
footfoe wrote: Standard primaris are confirmed to stay at 2 wounds from the edge of silence data sheets, so it's likely just vets going up. I imagine most people will still use intercessors, so the marine match up only gets easier with that change.
Confirmed all marines going to 2 W.
I am not lookign forward to chewing through DG marines.. or blightlords.. Jeeseus... 2 W khorne berserkers...
I mean... I don't even know what they going to have to do in order to let us compete. Its going to have to be obnoxious or we just have to wait this one out and hope for next edition... It looks like another year of marine meta.
This definitely doesn't bode well for Xenos races. I was super hype to play in the 9th edition with my renewed first love Eldar army. First the Flyer hit then this, oof. They turned an uphill battle into a straight up battle with a 90 degree incline.
Actually my biggest fear is the new codex...
High probability we will get a knee-jerk over correction in response to the marines and chaos buffs and get "something" to make us feel like eldar should. Probably something obscene like ignoring stacking modifers cap/reroll saves etc. That's supposed to be our "shtick", get pointed accordingly, and then due to certain units+strats+traits we will get a 2 week FAQ neutering our entire main rules making the entire "shtick" irrelevant or just flat our removed and we will simply just be mediocare with one or two broken units that are still OP. Again.. (Looking at you CHE)
What i'm most concerned is the point costs of troops. If a tac marine goes to 2 wounds for 18 pts, how is it justified that a Guardian costs 10? That seems... harsh.
Most curious how quickly they'll drop the rest of the codices. Several of the playtesters said the current points are just a bandaid to carry over until the codex for most armies, not sure what to make of that.
Cpt. Icanus wrote: What i'm most concerned is the point costs of troops. If a tac marine goes to 2 wounds for 18 pts, how is it justified that a Guardian costs 10? That seems... harsh.
Most curious how quickly they'll drop the rest of the codices. Several of the playtesters said the current points are just a bandaid to carry over until the codex for most armies, not sure what to make of that.
Aren't Rangers 15? And Dire Avengers 14?
3pts for +1S, +1T, +1W, +2Sv, and a much better gun.
Yeah that's the kicker. 5pts difference between a 2w marine w/ doctrines and a T3 4+ DA is a joke.
But these points are all over the place at the moment, I have faith balance will be restored at a general level. I just don't have faith that it will be in anything like a timely manner.
We can also just hope for some *Serious* rebalance.
I was midly amused with the possibility Banshees were upgrrade with an 4++ sav (the new models carry a bladeguard on their sword arm wich is only used to represent Forcefields on Autarchs)
but the Marine massive upgrade makes our already overpriced troops into some of the worst ingame.
We can be happy we'll get upgrades to our flamers,powerswords and chainswords for the time being.
I was midly amused with the possibility Banshees were upgrrade with an 4++ sav (the new models carry a bladeguard on their sword arm wich is only used to represent Forcefields on Autarchs)
but the Marine massive upgrade makes our already overpriced troops into some of the worst ingame.
We can be happy we'll get upgrades to our flamers,powerswords and chainswords for the time being.
The upgrades to power swords and possibly chainswords (assuming GW doesn't do something and make those changes only to human weapons) mean Banshees and Scorpions start to become less distinct from each other.
Banshees S4 -3 D1
Scorpions S4 -1 D1
I hope GW finds some way with the eventual Codex to give both these Aspects a viable use that is distinct from each other again.
The main issue Iracundus is that most of our weapons have distinct names.
Guardians do wield chainswords and may get the upgraded one (despite hints the -1 AP it's just for marines only) but Scorpions wield Scorpions chainswords wich shouldn't be upgraded yet.
As today we only share 4x weapons with imperium wich are flamers (wraithlords), powerswords (Banshees Autarchs) , Chainswords (Storm guardians) and melta bombs (Fire dragons) but i do agree with you Scorps
should be our anti horde melee and Banshees our anti elite units.
P.S: As personal preference i'm still wishing for get back our Flamers for Warp spiders.
-1 ap on storm guardians is actually a massive deal for them. I might give them a spin again once that rules drops. I do love q 24- blob of those guys...
grouchoben wrote: Yeah that's the kicker. 5pts difference between a 2w marine w/ doctrines and a T3 4+ DA is a joke.
But these points are all over the place at the moment, I have faith balance will be restored at a general level. I just don't have faith that it will be in anything like a timely manner.
Yeah with what we have now I feel there should have been a flat index for 9th, and when the rightfully inevitable "ive just paid nearly $100 for a codex and psychic awakening" came out they can give everyone the pdf/app version for free. As it is I feel they made the decision to drip feed in changes in a manner that best shifts books. That's my tin foil hat 2 cents.
On a more positive note I'm playing my first ever game of 40k on Sunday. My Ulthwe vs a friend's ultras. Running DAs in 2 Serpents, and a big bunch of axe bros. Also have some metal fire dragons from the early 90s that my uncle gifted me, so theyre up there with the DAs. Will probably hash the rules as my friend has also never played Warhammer, but we'll see how things go.
Hopefully Banshee Powerswords get changed to be "master crafted" and they get +1S D2, so they can at the very minimum attempt to do their job at A2.
Really id like it to be +2S "aeldari" powerswords but i doubt gw wants to go back to 2e powerswords.
Though i imagine since power swords are going +1 strength then executioner will have to go back to +2 strength to compensate so at least the exarch should be S5
So I've been running a few games against myself on TTS to try to get used to 9th. It usuallly take a few days to complete a game because I'm really busy with work, but hopefully I'll be able to get a few virtual games in soon.
I've been playing Craftworlds against Salamanders since they're the two armies I play and have an understanding of. Salamanders have been getting a lot of love from the competitive community since ninth dropped and I was curious to see how they get on. The answer is not well! I thought I'd picked a decent list, but against the fast and often flying firepower of the Eldar they're really struggling. Fly still seems incredibly useful with the denser terrain guidelines (I've been using the excellent pro tabletop tables from TTS workshop. The bikes and footslogging sallies just can't get into the firing positions that the craftworlders can. The craftworlds are 3-0 in my highly non scientific testing, at least the person in control is incompetent with both armies so that's a pretty good control measure! The last game was vital intelligence, with a score of 82-55. The sallies normally do ok for the first couple of turns, deleting vehicles with the eradicators, shutting down stuff with the outriders etc. But the eradicators never last more than a turn, Gravis and bikes are easy meat for star cannons and vibros. Anyone who wrote off vibro cannons should think again, against elites they do amazing work still and just zone out deepstriking in your deployment zone with ease. Fire and fade is now probably my favourite stategy, it's so handy for sneaking onto objectives once you've finished something off.
I'd expect white scars will probably be a tougher match up with their speed, Custodes I'm not sure, Deathguard will probably have the same problem as the sallies, just too ponderous.
I am working on a different list with less aggressors and more inceptors to try and help the sallies since I designed a TAC list which was supposed to push into the center and hold it but that doesn't work against this eldar list.
There's been a large obscuring piece of terrain in the deployment zones that I hide four squads behind with Asurman and two in deepstrike/reserve. With the 22 inch shuriken plus advance they threaten the midfield safely from behind cover while the vehicles move out at first and take out bikes and agressors then the avengers pop out to do the mopping up turn three onwards.
kingheff wrote: There's been a large obscuring piece of terrain in the deployment zones that I hide four squads behind with Asurman and two in deepstrike/reserve. With the 22 inch shuriken plus advance they threaten the midfield safely from behind cover while the vehicles move out at first and take out bikes and agressors then the avengers pop out to do the mopping up turn three onwards.
It appears that starcannons are the way to go vs. 2W Marines these days.
They may become commonplace.
kingheff wrote: There's been a large obscuring piece of terrain in the deployment zones that I hide four squads behind with Asurman and two in deepstrike/reserve. With the 22 inch shuriken plus advance they threaten the midfield safely from behind cover while the vehicles move out at first and take out bikes and agressors then the avengers pop out to do the mopping up turn three onwards.
It appears that starcannons are the way to go vs. 2W Marines these days.
They may become commonplace.
They were already most common weapon i think.
Might see a dash of AML coz blast/
kingheff wrote: So I've been running a few games against myself on TTS to try to get used to 9th. It usuallly take a few days to complete a game because I'm really busy with work, but hopefully I'll be able to get a few virtual games in soon.
I've been playing Craftworlds against Salamanders since they're the two armies I play and have an understanding of. Salamanders have been getting a lot of love from the competitive community since ninth dropped and I was curious to see how they get on. The answer is not well! I thought I'd picked a decent list, but against the fast and often flying firepower of the Eldar they're really struggling. Fly still seems incredibly useful with the denser terrain guidelines (I've been using the excellent pro tabletop tables from TTS workshop. The bikes and footslogging sallies just can't get into the firing positions that the craftworlders can. The craftworlds are 3-0 in my highly non scientific testing, at least the person in control is incompetent with both armies so that's a pretty good control measure! The last game was vital intelligence, with a score of 82-55. The sallies normally do ok for the first couple of turns, deleting vehicles with the eradicators, shutting down stuff with the outriders etc. But the eradicators never last more than a turn, Gravis and bikes are easy meat for star cannons and vibros. Anyone who wrote off vibro cannons should think again, against elites they do amazing work still and just zone out deepstriking in your deployment zone with ease. Fire and fade is now probably my favourite stategy, it's so handy for sneaking onto objectives once you've finished something off.
I'd expect white scars will probably be a tougher match up with their speed, Custodes I'm not sure, Deathguard will probably have the same problem as the sallies, just too ponderous.
I am working on a different list with less aggressors and more inceptors to try and help the sallies since I designed a TAC list which was supposed to push into the center and hold it but that doesn't work against this eldar list.
How do you think the list will change with 2 wound tacs with special weapons ? at 18 pts a sallies 5 man tac squad with crack missle/metla and some rhinos and landspeeders/rhinos
So I've been running a few games against myself on TTS to try to get used to 9th. It usuallly take a few days to complete a game because I'm really busy with work, but hopefully I'll be able to get a few virtual games in soon.
I've been playing Craftworlds against Salamanders since they're the two armies I play and have an understanding of. Salamanders have been getting a lot of love from the competitive community since ninth dropped and I was curious to see how they get on. The answer is not well! I thought I'd picked a decent list, but against the fast and often flying firepower of the Eldar they're really struggling. Fly still seems incredibly useful with the denser terrain guidelines (I've been using the excellent pro tabletop tables from TTS workshop. The bikes and footslogging sallies just can't get into the firing positions that the craftworlders can. The craftworlds are 3-0 in my highly non scientific testing, at least the person in control is incompetent with both armies so that's a pretty good control measure! The last game was vital intelligence, with a score of 82-55. The sallies normally do ok for the first couple of turns, deleting vehicles with the eradicators, shutting down stuff with the outriders etc. But the eradicators never last more than a turn, Gravis and bikes are easy meat for star cannons and vibros. Anyone who wrote off vibro cannons should think again, against elites they do amazing work still and just zone out deepstriking in your deployment zone with ease. Fire and fade is now probably my favourite stategy, it's so handy for sneaking onto objectives once you've finished something off.
I'd expect white scars will probably be a tougher match up with their speed, Custodes I'm not sure, Deathguard will probably have the same problem as the sallies, just too ponderous.
I am working on a different list with less aggressors and more inceptors to try and help the sallies since I designed a TAC list which was supposed to push into the center and hold it but that doesn't work against this eldar list.
[/spoiler]
How do you think the list will change with 2 wound tacs with special weapons ? at 18 pts a sallies 5 man tac squad with crack missle/metla and some rhinos and landspeeders/rhinos
Different flavours of marines don't worry me too much, lots of invulnerable saves or chaff would probably worry me more.
Non Primaris Marines can lean very hard on the special and heavy weapon front. Razorbacks toting 5-mans with twin specials (plus the turret weapons on the tank) are gonna be popping back up something fierce I expect.
Sterling191 wrote: Non Primaris Marines can lean very hard on the special and heavy weapon front. Razorbacks toting 5-mans with twin specials (plus the turret weapons on the tank) are gonna be popping back up something fierce I expect.
Especialy if you drop them in some cover. Shifting those is going to be a ballache just like primaris except the last man in the squad can keep throwing out krak missiles/meltas or what not..
grouchoben wrote:
But these points are all over the place at the moment, I have faith balance will be restored at a general level. I just don't have faith that it will be in anything like a timely manner.
GW's hardback addiction has to go, period.
This is my stance. 9th is,.. a new game and right now, meta is shifting for a few months, covid lock outs etc. Also the books will change the game more. Who knows maybe Banshees will be good after 5 editions meh.
On that note Is Ynarri all but ,.. dead? pun intended I guess. I don't see a tactica thread in the first 3 pages of the Tactics sub-forum.
I think the problem with ynarri is that they just don't do enough on their own compared to the parent factions.
Custom craftworlds, drukhari and Harlequins all have better options than ynarri bar things like the wraithseer combos but the new detachment rules kind of screwed that up too so any ynarri chat is probably subsumed into the craftworlds thread etc.
Currently i'm also contemplating whether i play pure Craftworld, Ynnari or a mix of both.
What do i gain from Ynnari?
1) Ultra tough Wraithseer(s)
2) Advance and charge Shining Spears
3) First strike in close combat
As i like to run Shining spears and Wraithlords let's see the pros and cons of those units.
- Wraithlord -
Ynnari: Occasionally first strike or +1 to hit in cc.
CWE: Better hits and wounds with expert crafters. Access to doom.
The ynnari part can really mess with the enemies plans but CWE is definitely more consistent.
- Shining Spears -
Ynnari: Occasionally first strike or +1 to hit in cc. Access to advance and charge strategem. Lack of fortune and protect.
CWE: More attacks with hunters of ancient relics and either expert crafters or headstrong for easier charge rolls. Defensive buffs.
With Ynnari i'd tend to run them in small squads as they lack protection and it helps to activate SfD.
Multiple squads are harder to hide in the webway though and Ynnari lack the charge bonus of CWE.
With CWE i would take large squads. Fortune and protect for durability and doom for better damage.
They can hide in the webway and appear with +4 to charge with Ghostwalk, Headstrong and Swooping Dive.
Conclusion: Apart from the Wraithseer i think Ynnari lose too much of the great Craftworld Abilities and Psychics.
If i want to run the Wraithseer (and i want to run a wraithseer!) i'll just add a cheap patrol detachment. There i can put the Yncarne as well.
The downside is that this messes with my specialized CWE detachments.
e.g. Expert Crafters + Masterful Shots for the shooty part and Hunters and Headstrong for the punchy part.
Instead i have to make a compromise and run the CWE detachment with Expert Crafters and Hunters of Ancient Relics.
Somehow, Ynnari are in an odd spot currently. Not unplayable but they lack some incentives to take them over their pure counterparts.
Great discussions. One thing I've also noticed is my pure CW lists is having two detachments, Expert Crafters/Masterful Shots and Hunters/Savage Blades. It builds the shooting and assault/counter assault capability. I do think this will become more common as more games are played. Another option has been to use a Harlequin detachment for the assault/counter assault element alongside the Crafters CW detachment.
Ynarri do seem to be in a weird spot. Other than the Wraithseer model, I have a difficult time building a detachment that is more efficient than a Harlequin/CW/Drukhari detachment.
Are Hemlock Wraithfighters bad? I've owned one nicely painted up since it came out and I happily used it a bit last edition but I've heard no one mention it this edition.
Did it go up in points so much it became unusable or the lack of stacking modifiers? I'm playing casual competitive and found it was fine before.
popisdead wrote: Are Hemlock Wraithfighters bad? I've owned one nicely painted up since it came out and I happily used it a bit last edition but I've heard no one mention it this edition.
Did it go up in points so much it became unusable or the lack of stacking modifiers? I'm playing casual competitive and found it was fine before.
Thanks kindly.
Everything has gone up in points.
the hemlock is currently sitting at 240pts.. with a single -1 to hit it has the survivability of a tadpole in a shark tank.
Im sure you could still use it casually though but dont expect it surviving T1.
Might be worth deepstriking it in.
-1 to hit alone isn't worth much anymore in a marine reroll to hit meta, no stacking modifiers and no way to hide.
A Falcon might be even more survivable with T7 instead of -1 to hit for ~'half' the points.
The output is okish and the psychics are a nice addon but in my opinion its way too expensive for its survivability.
The inability to hide is a big blow for all the planes, possibly more so than the minus to hit nerf. An inability to even hide turn one is a big blow.
One could work from deepstrike though if you take enough firepower down to allow the hemlock to come on say turn two without just being blown away.
"The inability to hide is a big blow for all the planes" - yeah this is the issue. The Hemlock is still a great unit but rules and points changes have hurt it a bit. With access to so many other powerful psyker units in the roster there just isn't the need for this plan, especially as the board has shrunk, and so its USP (dropping a jinx on any target you please) is less of a big deal.
That and a single warlock unlocking the seer council strat means that the Hemlock has to be doing a very specific job for you. I wouldn't write it off by any means, but it's a high priority target with no way of defnding itself T1.
Yesterday i had the opportunity to play a 1k game against Grey Knights.
First off the new missions are really good and 1k feels like a proper game with its own missions and decision making instead of just a 2k game with too few points.
Played a Ynnari patrol to give the Yncarne a try in the new edition and hell that lass is a blast to play. The mobility is awesome and multiple times she tricked the enemy with their teleport.
When the Shining Spears tried to assasinate the enemy Warlord Terminator Psyker and whiffed their attacks they got removed in a counter charge next turn only for the Yncarne to take their place and in my next round finish the job.
Later a falchion strike squad lined up for a charge only for the Yncarne to jump away when a Wraithlord died in the shooting phase.
The Yncarne was without doubt the MVP of that game. Think she not only scored/denied a lot of points through her jumps
but also killed most of the enemy force. Her kill count was the Warlord Termi Psyker, a Terminator Squad, a Strike Squad and a Rhino.
What successes and/or challenges are you all facing? So far, I've only played against Space Marines and it has been a real uphill battle for myself.
The secondary "Bring It Down" is yielding my opponent nearly/all points. Craftworld vehicles perform reasonably well, but by turn 4, they are generally crumbling.
I have had little success with Witchcraft secondaries. I've found the Craftworld psychic powers critical or getting within range to cast for the secondary gets the psyker promptly eliminated.
Dire Avengers are ok, but nothing special. Objective Secured is critical, but they fall apart very quickly once exposed.
I've had luck with 2x5 Warp Spiders to garner secondaries such as Engage on All Fronts or Line breaker. The innate-1 to hit ability does help as well as the ability to move anywhere on the table once per game.
All in all, it has been much more challenging than 8th and ITC missions.
Every opponent I have faced indicated the unit of 2-3 Hornets is a significant threat. It stands to reason facing Marines with Hornet Pulse Lasers.
I've utilized a 2 strong Warlock Conclave and have had success with casting , but it has generally been for Jinx (extending its range via stratagem).
Controlling the Primary Objectives has been quite a challenge against Marines. They wreck whatever is on the objectives prior to my next command phase.
Some ideas was to use 3 Nightspinners and pick the secondary, While We Stand, We Fight. But, I could not have Wave Serpents in the list, which seems like a bad idea.
Right now, I'm definitely facing significant challenges against Marines (lots of folks on the bandwagon atm).
Sarigar wrote: What successes and/or challenges are you all facing? So far, I've only played against Space Marines and it has been a real uphill battle for myself.
The secondary "Bring It Down" is yielding my opponent nearly/all points. Craftworld vehicles perform reasonably well, but by turn 4, they are generally crumbling.
I have had little success with Witchcraft secondaries. I've found the Craftworld psychic powers critical or getting within range to cast for the secondary gets the psyker promptly eliminated.
Dire Avengers are ok, but nothing special. Objective Secured is critical, but they fall apart very quickly once exposed.
I've had luck with 2x5 Warp Spiders to garner secondaries such as Engage on All Fronts or Line breaker. The innate-1 to hit ability does help as well as the ability to move anywhere on the table once per game.
All in all, it has been much more challenging than 8th and ITC missions.
Every opponent I have faced indicated the unit of 2-3 Hornets is a significant threat. It stands to reason facing Marines with Hornet Pulse Lasers.
I've utilized a 2 strong Warlock Conclave and have had success with casting , but it has generally been for Jinx (extending its range via stratagem).
Controlling the Primary Objectives has been quite a challenge against Marines. They wreck whatever is on the objectives prior to my next command phase.
Some ideas was to use 3 Nightspinners and pick the secondary, While We Stand, We Fight. But, I could not have Wave Serpents in the list, which seems like a bad idea.
Right now, I'm definitely facing significant challenges against Marines (lots of folks on the bandwagon atm).
Thoughts?
Is there a common theme to the lists you are hitting a wall against ?
Farseer, Dire Avengers, 1- Wave Serpents, 2-3 Hornets, Shining Spears, Wraithblades, Wraithseer, Vypers, Falcons in general.
I tried 2 x 5 Warp Spiders in one game which worked well for primary and secondary objectives. Dire Avengers do ok, but very frail once exposed. Wraithblades (axe and shield) do well. A Warlock Conclave of 2 models do very well for the long distance Jinx/Protect. Shining Spears are good for a powerful charge, but tend to be eliminated soon after.
I've found the Marines seemingly can play aggressive and can overpower my army away from the center of the board. I may need to utilize massed mortal wounds via Farseer and Yvraine with Wave Serpent support (although no reroll for the Serpent Shield hurts).
I've got an event coming up in a couple weeks. It feels a bit like 5th edition with Eldar. I won't win, but if I could go 3-2, it would be a good showing as I expect a large Marine showing.
Its a bit of a waiting game until armies get more in line with 9th edition.
Controlling the Primary Objectives has been quite a challenge against Marines. They wreck whatever is on the objectives prior to my next command phase.
Right now, I'm definitely facing significant challenges against Marines (lots of folks on the bandwagon atm).
I've found the Marines seemingly can play aggressive and can overpower my army away from the center of the board. I may need to utilize massed mortal wounds via Farseer and Yvraine with Wave Serpent support (although no reroll for the Serpent Shield hurts).
I've been wondering if D-Cannon support weapons can help out with this. A lot of 9th edition seems to be fighting in the center, and there is supposed to be more terrain now on the board and a smaller board size for tournaments. Support weapons no longer get -1 to hit for moving, and can be put into strategic reserves. Overall I feel like they fit in better in 9th edition.
Sarigar wrote: What successes and/or challenges are you all facing? So far, I've only played against Space Marines and it has been a real uphill battle for myself.
The secondary "Bring It Down" is yielding my opponent nearly/all points. Craftworld vehicles perform reasonably well, but by turn 4, they are generally crumbling.
I have had little success with Witchcraft secondaries. I've found the Craftworld psychic powers critical or getting within range to cast for the secondary gets the psyker promptly eliminated.
Dire Avengers are ok, but nothing special. Objective Secured is critical, but they fall apart very quickly once exposed.
I've had luck with 2x5 Warp Spiders to garner secondaries such as Engage on All Fronts or Line breaker. The innate-1 to hit ability does help as well as the ability to move anywhere on the table once per game.
All in all, it has been much more challenging than 8th and ITC missions.
Every opponent I have faced indicated the unit of 2-3 Hornets is a significant threat. It stands to reason facing Marines with Hornet Pulse Lasers.
I've utilized a 2 strong Warlock Conclave and have had success with casting , but it has generally been for Jinx (extending its range via stratagem).
Controlling the Primary Objectives has been quite a challenge against Marines. They wreck whatever is on the objectives prior to my next command phase.
Some ideas was to use 3 Nightspinners and pick the secondary, While We Stand, We Fight. But, I could not have Wave Serpents in the list, which seems like a bad idea.
Right now, I'm definitely facing significant challenges against Marines (lots of folks on the bandwagon atm).
Thoughts?
Thought I'd drop my experiences after a few games. I am one win (vs Dark Angels), one loss (vs Custodes). Both games I went second.
For the first game against Custodes, I basically brought my 8th edition list Mechdar without roughly 300 or so points so tweaked it a bit to fit.
Like you, I have found that giving away all points for "Bring it down" is somewhat unavoidable, the likes of Wave Serpents and Falcons are necessary for protecting the squishy guys inside. This brings me onto Dire Avengers, I have tried them both with a shimmershield and without, and the results ended up with 5 dead avengers should anyone decide to focus fire them. They remain hidden in tanks but they don't survive holding primaries for very long. They could be useful to use on backfield objectives like raise the banners, but I mainly take them as a tax unit. Guardians I see have potential, hiding 10 of them on an objective is useful with the potential to screen thanks to the size of the unit. 1CP for a 4++ isn't bad either.
War Walkers for me have been the big performer in both games, their cheap body and double star cannons work very well coupled with expert crafters and masterful shots. The custodes player mentioned he found them very pressuring as single units, being able to flank the board and effectively force him to deal with denying me secondary points with 70 point models. They were very useful in screening his dreadhost bomb and in the game against DA, their drop pods and DW Knights. They also easily net points for line breaker or the engage on all fronts secondaries should they be chosen.
I used 3 fire prisms in my first game and they actually performed well, hiding and moving around to link fire proved to be pretty useful. Not entirely sure how effective these would be in a game against marines though, so replacing them with Falcons in future games.
My gameplay tended to focus on rushing down objectives early game to net full primaries in turns 2 and 3 while limiting what my opponent can shoot at by keeping things in deepstrike in the case of the war walkers. I tried striking scorpions and they were okay but not stellar by any means and I brought some swooping hawks who did better, their fire rate made them a distraction and they're an okay screen/charge preventer with the supressing fire ability.
As far as I see, it's gonna be tough playing Eldar for a while without souping in Harlequins.
So, I've taken my previous list and just gone all out for firepower. I figure I should have enough to hold a couple of objectives and then I just blast away pretty much anything that pokes it's head out before trying to max primary turns four and five.
Vibros still hold the backfield, walkers and avengers start off the table, vypers and the characters push out.
Nothing fancy or clever really, just lots of dakka , speed and cheap moderately tough wounds. I'm thinking over 150 T5+ wounds with 3+ or 2+ saves at over 12" should be pretty annoying to remove, I can make one squad of vypers 1+ save with protect and another -1 to hit for extra annoying factor.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: What would you want the Harlies to do for you and, if you don't mind explaining why?
Fast, Combat units to go with shining spears, great screens, troupe masters are strong and big squads of skyweavers are reasonably reliable for the points you pay.
I don't play them personally as I'm a bit of a purist, but I know a few that do and they're getting good success from them.
kingheff wrote: So, I've taken my previous list and just gone all out for firepower. I figure I should have enough to hold a couple of objectives and then I just blast away pretty much anything that pokes it's head out before trying to max primary turns four and five.
Vibros still hold the backfield, walkers and avengers start off the table, vypers and the characters push out.
Nothing fancy or clever really, just lots of dakka , speed and cheap moderately tough wounds. I'm thinking over 150 T5+ wounds with 3+ or 2+ saves at over 12" should be pretty annoying to remove, I can make one squad of vypers 1+ save with protect and another -1 to hit for extra annoying factor.
Masterful shots, instead of masters of concealment, has proven to be beyond valuable for me especially against marines. I don't see the point in making our poor resilience mediocre when we can make our offence even stronger. I do believe my meta and how we do tables skews me down that road and it might not be the same for others.
With expert crafters I would be looking to throw some bright lances in those squads to take full advantage of it and provide considerably more AT. Again I understand this may be due to a vehicle heavyish meta that I'm in. And also the fact that I've had tremendous luck with mine due to it. I don't find starcannons with doom and/or guide to be enough for consistent vehicle kills.
Vibro-cannons. I just don't see what the fuss is. I take it it's a more is better thing with them? Can anybody tell me why they seem so popular?
kryczek wrote: I like it as well apart from a few things.
Masterful shots, instead of masters of concealment, has proven to be beyond valuable for me especially against marines. I don't see the point in making our poor resilience mediocre when we can make our offence even stronger. I do believe my meta and how we do tables skews me down that road and it might not be the same for others.
With expert crafters I would be looking to throw some bright lances in those squads to take full advantage of it and provide considerably more AT. Again I understand this may be due to a vehicle heavyish meta that I'm in. And also the fact that I've had tremendous luck with mine due to it. I don't find starcannons with doom and/or guide to be enough for consistent vehicle kills.
Vibro-cannons. I just don't see what the fuss is. I take it it's a more is better thing with them? Can anybody tell me why they seem so popular?
Cheers.
Its because each one acts as a single unit once deployed so that you end up with 9 MSU weapon platforms each benefiting from the EC re rolls. This used to infuriate me due to not being able to cast guide on the all 3 at once but now it works as a benefit.
They took bit of a points hit as well as suffering from the cap. They used to get +2 to the wound roll for subsequent shots but thats capped at 1 now. Also, they prevent advancing from any wounded unit which can be significant.
Ive stopped 20 strong horde of pox walkers in their tracks by a single vibro hit per shooting phase before wining me a game on its own as they were unable to screen ahead of the remaining DG army as was their purpose...
I really rate master of concealment. Especially on wave serpents and wraithlords. It adds up to make a difference over all of the wounds you have to churn through.
With the smaller board sizes and the prevalence of having a lot of cover to work with, masters of concealment is a bit redundant and it makes more sense to actually negate cover through using masterful shots. The difference between a starcannon causing 5+ saves or 6+ saves to an intercessor is huge and when facing a lot of infantry, concealment isn't the way to go. You want to be killing things so they don't shoot back, not shoring up on the hopes of being 12" away for a little bit of extra survivability.
I'm personally not sold on the vibrocannons, or any support weapons for 9th edition, it is way to easy for them to be countered with strategic reserves being a factor and unless you're hanging guys back, you can't screen for them.
Kingeff, I like the list, especially the vypers and war walkers, but I am not seeing the best synergy with expert crafters. I know you have a guide/doom seer to help, but it might be worth thinking about fortune instead of guide to make a unit really hard to kill instead of MoC route.
I still think vibros in crafters lists are extremely good.
I know they got limited to +1 to wound but that's not enough of a nerf to worry me too much. They still wound T6 and below on 2's, so great on light vehicles, bikes and heavy infantry. T7 on threes, T8 on fours after the first gun shoots. Flat 2 damage is always solid. With the crafters bonus working on each platform they're super efficient.
They're still cheap at 9 points per wound, they screen out pretty much the whole deployment zone with not much effort leaving the rest of the army to push forward.
Against marines the ability to stop advance moves for things like white scars is a great ability too.
I was running min squads of vypers and walkers to maximize the crafters benefits but I wanted to spam the wounds so moved away from the single vihicles. It also allows more guns even if the individual guns lose some efficiency.
Regards the ignore Vs always in cover I think 9th suits always in cover more because terrain can't be on objective markers though there may be some overlap. But on the whole the list is designed to blast opponents off objectives to deny them points whilst surviving as best I can. A 2+ is a pretty good place to start since between that and the T5+ profiles I'm trying to nullify small arms as much as possible and just using weight of wounds to survive anti tank firepower.
So, I've taken my previous list and just gone all out for firepower. I figure I should have enough to hold a couple of objectives and then I just blast away pretty much anything that pokes it's head out before trying to max primary turns four and five.
Vibros still hold the backfield, walkers and avengers start off the table, vypers and the characters push out.
Nothing fancy or clever really, just lots of dakka , speed and cheap moderately tough wounds. I'm thinking over 150 T5+ wounds with 3+ or 2+ saves at over 12" should be pretty annoying to remove, I can make one squad of vypers 1+ save with protect and another -1 to hit for extra annoying factor.
So I was playing around with a similar list more themed around maximum Starcannons and what I think is good is taking Pulse laser Hornets instead of Vypers, each Hornet is equivalent to 3 Vypers in firepower. Also I would recommend fitting this into a patrol detachment and a Vanguard, that way you don't need to take so many troops which at the moment are not very good and can instead spend it on swapping out some of your Vypers for Hornet Squadrons
So, I've taken my previous list and just gone all out for firepower. I figure I should have enough to hold a couple of objectives and then I just blast away pretty much anything that pokes it's head out before trying to max primary turns four and five.
Vibros still hold the backfield, walkers and avengers start off the table, vypers and the characters push out.
Nothing fancy or clever really, just lots of dakka , speed and cheap moderately tough wounds. I'm thinking over 150 T5+ wounds with 3+ or 2+ saves at over 12" should be pretty annoying to remove, I can make one squad of vypers 1+ save with protect and another -1 to hit for extra annoying factor.
So I was playing around with a similar list more themed around maximum Starcannons and what I think is good is taking Pulse laser Hornets instead of Vypers, each Hornet is equivalent to 3 Vypers in firepower. Also I would recommend fitting this into a patrol detachment and a Vanguard, that way you don't need to take so many troops which at the moment are not very good and can instead spend it on swapping out some of your Vypers for Hornet Squadrons
I see where you're coming from, I was using hornets with star cannons previously, they're very good in terms of killing potential but they're getting pretty pricey per wound especially with the pulse laser. I can get two squads of vypers for less than one squad of hornets.
The best thing about the vypers is how cheap they are for such a great platform. They're there to be my screen really so cheapness is really a virtue, to get a 20" fly movement with T5 3+ defensive profile for under ten points per wound is insanely good value.
Plus I think the list still lacks chaff killing shots, swapping out what shuriken I have for more star cannons just isn't a trade I'd feel comfortable with even though the anti power armour would increase even more.
So, I've taken my previous list and just gone all out for firepower. I figure I should have enough to hold a couple of objectives and then I just blast away pretty much anything that pokes it's head out before trying to max primary turns four and five.
Vibros still hold the backfield, walkers and avengers start off the table, vypers and the characters push out.
Nothing fancy or clever really, just lots of dakka , speed and cheap moderately tough wounds. I'm thinking over 150 T5+ wounds with 3+ or 2+ saves at over 12" should be pretty annoying to remove, I can make one squad of vypers 1+ save with protect and another -1 to hit for extra annoying factor.
So I was playing around with a similar list more themed around maximum Starcannons and what I think is good is taking Pulse laser Hornets instead of Vypers, each Hornet is equivalent to 3 Vypers in firepower. Also I would recommend fitting this into a patrol detachment and a Vanguard, that way you don't need to take so many troops which at the moment are not very good and can instead spend it on swapping out some of your Vypers for Hornet Squadrons
I see where you're coming from, I was using hornets with star cannons previously, they're very good in terms of killing potential but they're getting pretty pricey per wound especially with the pulse laser. I can get two squads of vypers for less than one squad of hornets.
The best thing about the vypers is how cheap they are for such a great platform. They're there to be my screen really so cheapness is really a virtue, to get a 20" fly movement with T5 3+ defensive profile for under ten points per wound is insanely good value.
Plus I think the list still lacks chaff killing shots, swapping out what shuriken I have for more star cannons just isn't a trade I'd feel comfortable with even though the anti power armour would increase even more.
That's all true and good points, but with Vypers if you do advance you then can't shoot the Starcannons whereas you can take Crystal Targeting Matrix on Hornets which allows you to do so.
Also you can take Spirit Stones to increase points per wound on Hornets from around 15 to just under 14 on average (with CTM) and you have +1 toughness, +2 movement and can advance and shoot if you over Vypers.
My list has a squad of Vypers and a squad of Hornets as I'm taking one Spearhead so only 2 Fast Attack so fits well for me in this case and I really want to dip into FW Hornets seem like a great place to start when they come back into availability.
kingheff wrote: [spoiler]So, I've taken my previous list and just gone all out for firepower. I figure I should have enough to hold a couple of objectives and then I just blast away pretty much anything that pokes it's head out before trying to max primary turns four and five.
Vibros still hold the backfield, walkers and avengers start off the table, vypers and the characters push out.
Nothing fancy or clever really, just lots of dakka , speed and cheap moderately tough wounds. I'm thinking over 150 T5+ wounds with 3+ or 2+ saves at over 12" should be pretty annoying to remove, I can make one squad of vypers 1+ save with protect and another -1 to hit for extra annoying factor.
So I was playing around with a similar list more themed around maximum Starcannons and what I think is good is taking Pulse laser Hornets instead of Vypers, each Hornet is equivalent to 3 Vypers in firepower. Also I would recommend fitting this into a patrol detachment and a Vanguard, that way you don't need to take so many troops which at the moment are not very good and can instead spend it on swapping out some of your Vypers for Hornet Squadrons
I see where you're coming from, I was using hornets with star cannons previously, they're very good in terms of killing potential but they're getting pretty pricey per wound especially with the pulse laser. I can get two squads of vypers for less than one squad of hornets.
The best thing about the vypers is how cheap they are for such a great platform. They're there to be my screen really so cheapness is really a virtue, to get a 20" fly movement with T5 3+ defensive profile for under ten points per wound is insanely good value.
Plus I think the list still lacks chaff killing shots, swapping out what shuriken I have for more star cannons just isn't a trade I'd feel comfortable with even though the anti power armour would increase even more.
That's all true and good points, but with Vypers if you do advance you then can't shoot the Starcannons whereas you can take Crystal Targeting Matrix on Hornets which allows you to do so.
Also you can take Spirit Stones to increase points per wound on Hornets from around 15 to just under 14 on average (with CTM) and you have +1 toughness, +2 movement and can advance and shoot if you over Vypers.
My list has a squad of Vypers and a squad of Hornets as I'm taking one Spearhead so only 2 Fast Attack so fits well for me in this case and I really want to dip into FW Hornets seem like a great place to start when they come back into availability.
They're also good points, there's definitely good stuff with hornets but in this list I need the cheapness of the vypers.
I think I'd have to redo the list to squeeze in the hornets, probably at the expense of the vibros if anything. But then I lose the backfield screen.
Hornets are great models, no comparison to the vypers there, although it's only the riders that look dated, the bike part of the vyper still look decent to me.
Here's a list I put together with a squad of hornets as an alternative to the other list, the nice thing about this is that I can use ignore cover and count as in cover in a single battalion which is nice.
- Shining Spears -
Ynnari: Occasionally first strike or +1 to hit in cc. Access to advance and charge strategem. Lack of fortune and protect.
CWE: More attacks with hunters of ancient relics and either expert crafters or headstrong for easier charge rolls. Defensive buffs.
With Ynnari i'd tend to run them in small squads as they lack protection and it helps to activate SfD.
Multiple squads are harder to hide in the webway though and Ynnari lack the charge bonus of CWE.
With CWE i would take large squads. Fortune and protect for durability and doom for better damage.
They can hide in the webway and appear with +4 to charge with Ghostwalk, Headstrong and Swooping Dive.
Don't forget that with CWE you can take a Warlock with Quicken and yolo them ahead 28 inch in one turn, or move after coming in from deepstrike. It makes charging incredibly easy. You can only do it on one unit, of course.
- Shining Spears -
Ynnari: Occasionally first strike or +1 to hit in cc. Access to advance and charge strategem. Lack of fortune and protect.
CWE: More attacks with hunters of ancient relics and either expert crafters or headstrong for easier charge rolls. Defensive buffs.
With Ynnari i'd tend to run them in small squads as they lack protection and it helps to activate SfD.
Multiple squads are harder to hide in the webway though and Ynnari lack the charge bonus of CWE.
With CWE i would take large squads. Fortune and protect for durability and doom for better damage.
They can hide in the webway and appear with +4 to charge with Ghostwalk, Headstrong and Swooping Dive.
Don't forget that with CWE you can take a Warlock with Quicken and yolo them ahead 28 inch in one turn, or move after coming in from deepstrike. It makes charging incredibly easy. You can only do it on one unit, of course.
Both is not correct:
1. If you use quicken on Shining Spears you can move up 44 Inches (without being able to charge) or 32 inches (while stil being able to charge). 2. and more importantly: A unit arriving via deepstrike can NEVER move for any reason with the exception being a charge move. So no: you cannot drop in a unit from deep strike and them quicken than for a guaranteed 2 inch charge move.
Give me Vypers. I like solo BL with expert crafters, and shuricannon ideally, for 70pts. They also love masters of concealment for a 2+. Part of what's so good about them is their speed, allowing you to score engage on all fronts with ease.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yeah guys, I thought I'd spread the good word on Crimson Hunter Exarchs - I've been running a pair and they've proven very tanky.
EC/MoC traits, with evade exarch power gives your plane 2+/5++ and -1 to hit. That's a really good defensive profile in my book, and it's been unlocked by the change in how vehicles and heavy weapons interact, freeing up the exarch power.
Still running my nine vypers in test games and they're still great. With that 2+ from concealment and just the number of wounds they are very tricky to shift and, as vehicles, are great screens for the squishy characters. I think a salamander relic whirlwind Scorpius with the +1 to wound strat was averaging a single vyper per volley.
Nice to hear the Che is doing well. I nearly bought one the other day but settled on two boxes of windriders to convert into spears.
Well, is there a consensus about using a unit of Wraithblades letting them move through the centre and holding it for a while or clearing an objective?
I think this is the only Eldar unit (bar vehicles) able to do so.
I've used a 5 strong unit with Axe/Shiled and found them very worthwhile. I've painted another now and will run them at with 2 x 5 and 1 x 10 Wraithblades to see which I prefer.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, is there a consensus about using a unit of Wraithblades letting them move through the centre and holding it for a while or clearing an objective?
I think this is the only Eldar unit (bar vehicles) able to do so.
I doubt there's a consensus, this is the internet after all! I think they're ok, great durability obviously, not very killy either unfortunately.
Their main weakness is that they're not obsec, if a single guardsman survives your attacks or gets move move moved onto your objective you've lost it.
So ideally you want to combine them with durable obsec, maybe a big blob of storm guardians with celestial shield and protect?
Possibly an iyanden patrol and use the psytronome to boost the attacks of the blades with the advantage that only one runs from morale?
wuestenfux wrote: Well, is there a consensus about using a unit of Wraithblades letting them move through the centre and holding it for a while or clearing an objective?
I think this is the only Eldar unit (bar vehicles) able to do so.
I doubt there's a consensus, this is the internet after all! I think they're ok, great durability obviously, not very killy either unfortunately.
Their main weakness is that they're not obsec, if a single guardsman survives your attacks or gets move move moved onto your objective you've lost it.
So ideally you want to combine them with durable obsec, maybe a big blob of storm guardians with celestial shield and protect?
Possibly an iyanden patrol and use the psytronome to boost the attacks of the blades with the advantage that only one runs from morale?
Playing Imperial Fists on Saturday (hopefully), 2000pts "Scorched Earth" mission.
We've shared lists, and I'm going to be spending the next few days playing out my opening turns in my head!
Mostly I'm thinking about target priority. So far, this is what I'm thinking:
1) Repulsor Executioner
2) Helblasters if they're on Objectives/close to my own deployment zone
3) Invictor Warsuit
4) Incursors/Infiltrators that are on objectives
5) Aggressors that are on Objectives
6) whatever the flyer is called (has two assault cannons)
7) Cataphract Captain and/or Lieutenant
What do y'all think? Would anybody change the order?
NuhJuhKuh wrote: Playing Imperial Fists on Saturday (hopefully), 2000pts "Scorched Earth" mission.
We've shared lists, and I'm going to be spending the next few days playing out my opening turns in my head!
Mostly I'm thinking about target priority. So far, this is what I'm thinking:
1) Repulsor Executioner
2) Helblasters if they're on Objectives/close to my own deployment zone
3) Invictor Warsuit
4) Incursors/Infiltrators that are on objectives
5) Aggressors that are on Objectives
6) whatever the flyer is called (has two assault cannons)
7) Cataphract Captain and/or Lieutenant
What do y'all think? Would anybody change the order?
NuhJuhKuh wrote: Playing Imperial Fists on Saturday (hopefully), 2000pts "Scorched Earth" mission.
We've shared lists, and I'm going to be spending the next few days playing out my opening turns in my head!
Mostly I'm thinking about target priority. So far, this is what I'm thinking:
1) Repulsor Executioner
2) Helblasters if they're on Objectives/close to my own deployment zone
3) Invictor Warsuit
4) Incursors/Infiltrators that are on objectives
5) Aggressors that are on Objectives
6) whatever the flyer is called (has two assault cannons)
7) Cataphract Captain and/or Lieutenant
What do y'all think? Would anybody change the order?
I'd consider units first that threaten your front ranks such as Invitors and infiltrating units.
We have also pre-determined the mission - “Scorched Earth” from the BRB. For secondaries I’m thinking Psychic Ritual, Take it Down, and... the one for getting into table quarters
kingheff wrote: You think wraithblades are very reliant on protect?
Yes. In a lot cases it means sacrificing jinx over protect.
If you going to spend 400pts on them.. The 3++ over 4++ makes a huge difference to the point where people just dont shoot or take an entire army worth of shooting them allowing them to do their job either way. I been running wraiths every game in 8th. Variations of the vigilius specialist detachments and then later axes when the pts came down.
They only have a 3+ base and 3 W isitn that hard to chew through with some re-rolls with plasma and bolters. I have found them a very all or nothing unit. As in youu go all in or them or dont bother taking them. There are better things to take for their pts IMO with more utility or firepower.
kingheff wrote: You think wraithblades are very reliant on protect?
Yes. In a lot cases it means sacrificing jinx over protect.
If you going to spend 400pts on them.. The 3++ over 4++ makes a huge difference to the point where people just dont shoot or take an entire army worth of shooting them allowing them to do their job either way.
I been running wraiths every game in 8th. Variations of the vigilius specialist detachments and then later axes when the pts came down.
They only have a 3+ base and 3 W isitn that hard to chew through with some re-rolls with plasma and bolters.
I have found them a very all or nothing unit. As in youu go all in or them or dont bother taking them. There are better things to take for their pts IMO with more utility or firepower.
I see your point but, personally, I struggle to see me putting a unit of ten on the table. Four hundred points is a huge chunk of the list and is pretty slow and has average damage output because of the -1 to hit. I get the tankiness argument but without obsec they lose the objective to a single scout etc.
I can see a min squad or two being useful but I don't think 9th really supports a big blob of ten.
Thats exactly i..t I like them and my fav unit but I dont dont think they are good enough to be considered top tier competitive due to the cost slowness and no range.
Perhaps a 5 strong squad as a throw away counter charge measure but I'd rather take two wraith-lords if I have the slots as its likely Ill be running EC anyway and they can apply damage from T1.
But taking 2x5 might as well take 10 strong unit and buff them I guess is what im saying.
I'm thinking more about deepstriking a unit of five in midgame to harass tanks etc hiding in the backfield. Still not sure it's an amazing strategy but it's the best I can think of.
Overall though I think I'd just go for spears, faster, good firepower comparable melee. Less tanky obviously but we're eldar not death guard, we don't have enough options to play the camping on objectives and surviving game.
kingheff wrote: You think wraithblades are very reliant on protect?
Yes. In a lot cases it means sacrificing jinx over protect.
If you going to spend 400pts on them.. The 3++ over 4++ makes a huge difference to the point where people just dont shoot or take an entire army worth of shooting them allowing them to do their job either way.
I been running wraiths every game in 8th. Variations of the vigilius specialist detachments and then later axes when the pts came down.
They only have a 3+ base and 3 W isitn that hard to chew through with some re-rolls with plasma and bolters.
I have found them a very all or nothing unit. As in youu go all in or them or dont bother taking them. There are better things to take for their pts IMO with more utility or firepower.
Fortune would also help to keep them alive and kicking.
I think you're going to need 2 runes casters and a farseer dedicated to babysitting your axe blob to make them shine - they need fortune, protect and quicken imo. They'd love enhance too, but that's a luxury.
What I loved about swords in the vigilus detachment was their ability to blender any unit they touched, on top of their buffable defence. With the +1A and peerles disdain strats they became horrible, especially if you had someone throwing enhance on them. Expected damage of 37 vs MEQ, for example, or 22 against a knight, w/no doom. They chugged down CP so fast that you only got two rounds out of them at that level, but it was lovely.
Axes feel so toothless by comparison. Ah well, it's the way of edition changes I suppose.
Axe Blades in a list with Wrath of the Dead and Hunters of Ancient Relics are getting enough attacks to offset the -1 to hit. Add Protect and Fortune, they will hang on objectives and hit anything that gets close.
As for deterring obsec troops, use the wave serpent to push out opponents and get the wraiths beyond the objective, not directly on it.
Has anyone had any success building lists that don't give up maximum bring it down points?
I keep trying to come up with something that doesn't include a skew towards monsters and vehicles but I'm struggling to find a list I'm happy with.
kingheff wrote: Has anyone had any success building lists that don't give up maximum bring it down points?
I keep trying to come up with something that doesn't include a skew towards monsters and vehicles but I'm struggling to find a list I'm happy with.
What enemy lists do you have in mind?
One also finds mech Eldar lists with minimum troop support.
I'm just trying to come up with tac lists that aren't heavy on vehicles.
I usually get about as far as three squads of five spears, characters and some avengers then I start struggling to find much that isn't depending on transports.
I'm taking the following to a 5 round event this weekend. I won't claim it is any good, but it the list is skewed away from vehicles.
1 x 1 Farseer Skyrunner
1 x 5 Warlock Skyrunner Conclave
2 x 5 Dire Avengers
1 x 10 Wraithblades (Axe and Shield)
1 x 5 Shining Spears
1 x 1 Hemlock Wraithfighter
1 x 1 Troupe Master
1 x 1 Shadowseer
2 x 5 Troupe
1 x1 Death Jester
1 x 4 Skyweaver
We shall see if I can pressure armies enough to let the troop units score the bulk of my points.
Sarigar wrote: I'm taking the following to a 5 round event this weekend. I won't claim it is any good, but it the list is skewed away from vehicles.
1 x 1 Farseer Skyrunner
1 x 5 Warlock Skyrunner Conclave
2 x 5 Dire Avengers
1 x 10 Wraithblades (Axe and Shield)
1 x 5 Shining Spears
1 x 1 Hemlock Wraithfighter
1 x 1 Troupe Master
1 x 1 Shadowseer
2 x 5 Troupe
1 x1 Death Jester
1 x 4 Skyweaver
We shall see if I can pressure armies enough to let the troop units score the bulk of my points.
Nice, I shall look forward to hearing how you got on.
Sarigar wrote: I'm taking the following to a 5 round event this weekend. I won't claim it is any good, but it the list is skewed away from vehicles.
1 x 1 Farseer Skyrunner
1 x 5 Warlock Skyrunner Conclave
2 x 5 Dire Avengers
1 x 10 Wraithblades (Axe and Shield)
1 x 5 Shining Spears
1 x 1 Hemlock Wraithfighter
1 x 1 Troupe Master
1 x 1 Shadowseer
2 x 5 Troupe
1 x1 Death Jester
1 x 4 Skyweaver
We shall see if I can pressure armies enough to let the troop units score the bulk of my points.
- Shining Spears -
Ynnari: Occasionally first strike or +1 to hit in cc. Access to advance and charge strategem. Lack of fortune and protect.
CWE: More attacks with hunters of ancient relics and either expert crafters or headstrong for easier charge rolls. Defensive buffs.
With Ynnari i'd tend to run them in small squads as they lack protection and it helps to activate SfD.
Multiple squads are harder to hide in the webway though and Ynnari lack the charge bonus of CWE.
With CWE i would take large squads. Fortune and protect for durability and doom for better damage.
They can hide in the webway and appear with +4 to charge with Ghostwalk, Headstrong and Swooping Dive.
Don't forget that with CWE you can take a Warlock with Quicken and yolo them ahead 28 inch in one turn, or move after coming in from deepstrike. It makes charging incredibly easy. You can only do it on one unit, of course.
Both is not correct:
1. If you use quicken on Shining Spears you can move up 44 Inches (without being able to charge) or 32 inches (while stil being able to charge). 2. and more importantly: A unit arriving via deepstrike can NEVER move for any reason with the exception being a charge move. So no: you cannot drop in a unit from deep strike and them quicken than for a guaranteed 2 inch charge move.
I definitely agree with you on the first point, I keep mixing up movement ranges on units, and often enough the difference of a couple of inches doesn't matter that much when you're already flying across the entire board.
Regarding the second point, I guess that is indeed how the rules can be read. I've been playing it wrong...
It's been that way for a couple of years now, Sieban is definitely right. But if you need a DS-charge to go off, a warlock with ghostwalk is a great choice. 7" with a reroll isn't 2" but it's still much more reliable. You could even give them their own detachment with hunters of ancient relics and +1 to charge, if it's a key to your gameplan.
I won my game this morning, for anyone who’s interested - pure Craftworlds (Expert Crafters, Children of Prophecy) vs. Imperial Fists.
My list is further up this thread; my opponents was roughly:
> Repulsor Executioner
> Invictus Warsuit
> Flyer with assault cannons (?!)
> 4x five-man infiltrator/incursion units (I don’t remember which)
> 2x five-man rapid-Fire Helblasters
> 2x five-man Reivers, one of which could deep-Strike
> 1x three man Aggressors with boltstorm gauntlets
> mini marine Lieutenant
> Cataphrapct Captain
Scenario was pre-determined to be “Scorched Earth” from the BRB, and I chose for secondaries: Engage on all Fronts; Bring it Down; Psycich Ritual.
My opponent, the gentleman that he is, had the table already setup in advance of my arrival. Roughly symmetrical layout, with some nice LOS-blocking pieces on both sides. The sensible play would have been to put both of my planes into reserves, as they were the only high-value models I couldn’t protect first turn by just hiding... instead I put everything on the table bar my Rangers (who I personally rate very high - their offensive output may be sub-par, and the loss of the innate -1 to hit sucks BUT I don’t have to pay for a transport to keep them safe!), and banked on getting first turn!
Which I did!
I managed to shoot/psychic the Executioner, Invictor and a squad of incursors off the table on my first turn, and after that more or less had air superiority for the rest of the game.
I tabled the Fists in my fourth turn, and ended the game 92-18. I feel a bit dirty if I’m honest, as I’d teched for this match pretty hard after our last game :/ but still happy with how I played too. Sometimes my target priority is on point... sometimes I get carried away with playing my latest unit and lose focus.
We’re now 1-1, so next month’s game will be an intense one! Especially if the marine Codex is released by then...
Seeing as you scored so highly, were you happy with the secondaries you'd picked? Were there any other points to note during the game that you'd like to discuss?
@Tyranid Horde - Yes very happy with the secondaries I chose. Once I knew there were only 8/9 points available for “Bring it down” I was tempted to switch for the mission objective (“Raze”), but didn’t. I hindsight, I totally could have achieved that and maxed out - but reckoned the safe play was to stick with “bring it down” as those pieces needed to die anyway, My list has huge mobility, so “Engage” wasn’t hard (except for two turns where I goofed the placement), and the Wraithseer was the perfect fit for “Psychic Ritual”.
@Kingelf - Wraiths were great!I used both units to attack infantry and/or take objectives. In both cases, 5-man Primaris units are ideal targets for them.
Our game was a bit unusual (maybe?) in that we both new each other’s lists and the mission several days before the game. I used that down-time to plan my turns, target priority etc. Once the Executioner and Invictor were removed, there wasn’t a whole lot could touch my much tougher units. In total I lost one Vyper, and some wounds off my planes and the Wave Serpent.
Also, it was fun experimenting with different powers for my Jetseer! I found I didn’t need Doom or Guide with the baked-in rerolls from “Expert Crafters”.
This is my second time playing 9th, and this opponent actually - we’ve just discovered we live in the same TINY Irish town, and are going to try a game a month. I lost the first one, *maybe* overcompensated with this list (it was designed to
Kill Marines!), bringing the Avatar and Maugan Ra in a Beil Tan List next time.
Whats the easiest way to make this list of models more competitive? The problem is it moves fast, gets in close, kills a lot of stuff, then it gets hammered and turn 2... there's hardly anything left to really do much, and it can't handle combat at all. And with 9th, its got no staying power.
All painted Sam Haim
3 Farseers on Jetbikes
3 Warlocks on jetbikes
3 x 6 Units Windriders, about half with shuriken cannons
6 Vipers, most with brightlances
6 warwalkers, most with missile launchers
7 rangers
2 support weapon platforms
Might have a few other units if my friend looks real hard. Jetbikes could be converted to singing spears.
@Nujukuh Great to hear that the wraiths performed well. The good news for craftworlds is if we spec for it our weapons tend to smoke marines, we have good quality high strength and ap weapons that chew through power armour.
@Sazzlefrats There's definitely some good stuff in there but I think you need to play a defensive game using the long range shooting of the walkers, vypers and support weapons whilst hiding the windriders until you have softened up your opponent from range. You could definitely do with some heavier armour though to give your opponent harder choices on targets.
Play a custom craftworld with ignore cover and count as in cover, get a bike autarch to help with accuracy and I don't think you're far away from a good force, but don't charge forward, play the long game and use the speed and fly movement of your units to try and bully one flank, for example, while your opponent has to move round terrain to get you back in their sights.
@snazzlefrats - with what you (or your friend?) have, I would agree with Kingelf and play a Custom Craftworld, but tweak a bit. MSU (I.e. single model units) of Vypers and Warwalkers with “Expert Crafters” are very efficient at shooting, and flexible on the battlefield too. Both have decent range and mobility, so you can definitely play the long game that Kingelf suggests too. If you can convert a unit of Windriders to Spears, do it! But don’t be tempted to charge ‘em early - keep them in reserve, then use “Ghost Walk” and “Swooping Dive” for a +3” charge.
If you’re looking or suggestions to add to your force, well, I’d have to say a squad of Wraithblades in a Wave Serpent! Good luck!
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll pass them along and hopefully my friend accepts a few. I was playing a simple. deathguard army against him.
Mortarion
Lord of Contagion
Foul Blightspawn
3 x 4 nurglings
Demon Prince with Wings
3 x 10 poxwalkers
3 mephit blighthaulers
Plague Hulk (the ultimate distraction carnifex, shooting sux)
1 chaos spawn
I think that was all. I had 3 deathshroud terminators but forgot to take them out of the case. He moved right into my mephits and hulk on my right flank, and shot at the hulk. 8 wounds taken... that was it. My saves were pretty good. My turn, mortarion made a long charge, and so did the mephits. And they all shot other units. Also my nurglings go into a unit of windriders... turn 1 was a disaster for him. Turn 2, I gave him some advice, but it was half ignored. Turn 3, I played his turn, and we killed mortarion, but by then Mortarion had earned his points back, and the mephits were free to roam. Score was 50ish to 20... maybe. (so it was a run away game, probably would have ended 100 to 25).
1. Custom Craftworlds
2. Shining Spears
3. Don't rush in.
4. Maybe an elite unit with protection.
What are your feelings about the HWF? Locally there is a tournament and the Eldar player said it was the star of the last match he had. I forget the other details (well I'd have to dig up a text).
Wild speculation time, I'm going to guess that our troops, aspect warriors (non plane ones) and bikes will be our core choices when the new codex drops. I wonder if, as well as the autarch aura, some of our psychic powers will be restricted in the same way, e.g. guide and fortune only work on core units.
Hopefully our aspects get a serious boost to make them more viable, a lot of them need serious love.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It would be interesting to see if they do anything with the big craftworlds. Wraith units being core for iyanden, bikes for saim Han etc. Not sure if it's a good idea, I don't like it when armies get too stereotyped, but we shall see.
@Popisdead - solid! “Jinx” as much as it’s guns; forgot about the Mindshick pods, but probably wouldn’t have made a huge difference. Didn’t win the game by itself, but definitely a part of the puzzle.
@kingelf - makes sense! But I reckon our other units will still have access to auras, but from more specific sources - e.g. Wraith units *probably* won’t be core (unless Iyanden?! Could be an updated Craftworld Attribute?!), but Spritiseers/Wraithseers auras might get boosted from current iteration to compensate. Who knows!
What are your feelings about the HWF? Locally there is a tournament and the Eldar player said it was the star of the last match he had. I forget the other details (well I'd have to dig up a text).
It's comparatively weak in 9e compared to a Crimson Hunter Exarch. The exarch benefited hugely - it lost -1 to hit when moving, which frees up its exarch power. The obvious choice to my mind is Evade - a 5++. Throw it in an expert crafters/masters of concealment detachment and you have a plane with native rerolls, 2+ to hit, -1 to be hit, and a 2+/5++ save that can combo off doom and jinx. That's still a top-tier unit for 200pts.
The Hemlock autohits, so gained nothing from heavy rule change, and has no exarch power to profit from. It lost its only defensive power, namely stacking negs to hit, but got no invuln in return, which is a massive deal in the eradicator meta. Expert crafters is only half a power on it. Its access to powers is great, as is its nerf to leadership bubble, but it's cost/survivability ratio makes it a paper aeroplane.
What are your feelings about the HWF? Locally there is a tournament and the Eldar player said it was the star of the last match he had. I forget the other details (well I'd have to dig up a text).
It's comparatively weak in 9e compared to a Crimson Hunter Exarch. The exarch benefited hugely - it lost -1 to hit when moving, which frees up its exarch power. The obvious choice to my mind is Evade - a 5++. Throw it in an expert crafters/masters of concealment detachment and you have a plane with native rerolls, 2+ to hit, -1 to be hit, and a 2+/5++ save that can combo off doom and jinx. That's still a top-tier unit for 200pts.
The Hemlock autohits, so gained nothing from heavy rule change, and has no exarch power to profit from. It lost its only defensive power, namely stacking negs to hit, but got no invuln in return, which is a massive deal in the eradicator meta. Expert crafters is only half a power on it. Its access to powers is great, as is its nerf to leadership bubble, but it's cost/survivability ratio makes it a paper aeroplane.
Nailed it. Great Breakdown.
Im not sure though that i'd take a CHE over a falcon/wave serpent due to transport capacity for DA.
Since we seem to be very HQ heavy/dependant I'd love to see GW make a rule that says that if you take a max unit of aspect warriors you can take the appropriate Phoenix Lord without using an HQ slot. You'd still have to pay points for the Lord but you wouldn't be using a slot that could otherwise go to a Farseer/Warlock/Spiritseer/Etc..
I have a game this weekend and seeing as how my mechdar has struggled with primaries I thought I'd try to bring in some more bodies (infantry) to focus on scoring the secondaries more easily than before. Ideally, the secondaries I'm after are: Linebreaker, Deploy Scramblers and Engage on all Fronts. The list focuses more on the objective game than the killing game which I feel Eldar are quite capable of doing right now and if there are more suitable secondaries I'm not stuck for swapping some of them out.
I'm trying to decide between Hunters and Masterful Shots currently, as Hunters only really impacts some units in combat some of the time (makes Spears and scorpions killier, and war walkers entertaining) while MS works pretty much all the time.
Early game plays can vary too, with most tanks having the potential to be a tough nut to crack on turn one and have the speed to cap objectives and still leave the threat of an ObSec unit after if they die. War walkers can be deployed turn one or avail of their own deepstrike for more disruption or back field harassment.
The likes of Hawks, Spiders and Scorpions can work on scramblers while having the potential to screen and deepstrike for free. The Spears are good for disruption and can achieve a good charge using quicken and/or be durable with the 3++ or protected with a 2++.
Thoughts? If I had some Vypers I'd definitely consider a few of them as they're so cheap for such a good fire base. Another option is to drop the spirit stones on the falcons to make room for warlocks on jetbikes for extra movement but aren't as easy to hide like their foot slogging counterparts.
I see where you're coming from, but as Heavy Intercessors aren't out yet, this won't affect my game this week . Custodes are a thing however, but against armies with a low model count, it's easy to play the objective game and win that way. Starcannons are generally the best TAC weapon for the cost right now and we realistically don't have anything more reliable.
In terms of foot HQs, I've always found them to be fine, they have decent transport options and their threat range is fine from disembarkation as they are mostly for buffing the units I have. Like I said, I could drop the spirit stones and scorpions claw to upgrade two characters to bikes.
I picked the Spiders and Hawks not for their damage output, but for their ability to move around the board and redeploy. 80 and 90 point units are perfect for that, especially if they're maxing out secondaries like scramblers and linebreaker fairly early on and the screening they can provide is pretty decent too.
I was also considering a unit of fire dragons to slot in somewhere, they're another 3+ save unit to the army and can be a threat that has to be dealt with. Their cost however is pricey and they have the potential to do nothing.
Looks like a good list to me! I personally would recommend putting your warlock on bikes if you can - the extra mobility and toughness is very handy, and you can always hide them behind your grav-tanks.
I’d also recommend swapping powers so that the “Quicken” warlock doesn’t also have “Ghostwalk”, because he/she can’t cast both in the same turn.
Also, given how many Starcannons and Pulse Lasers you already have in the list, maybe consider swapping the CHE (and one Warlock) for a Hemlock? Just a thought
Overall I like it a lot. The only question I'd have is whether it'd be worth dropping one of the serpents for more killing potential? You've got quite a lot of tough units already, maybe a second squad of spears or fire dragons? Possibly swap out the scorpions for avengers for more chaff clearing?
But I think the list is good so I'm just making suggestions rather than criticising it.
Thank you both for your input, I think I'll tweak the list to allow for Jetlocks which means simply dropping the scorp claw and spirit stones to include them.
In relation to the fire dragons kingheff, I made a double patrol list to include them, at the expense of a war walker and a squad of avengers. This also allowed me to add some AMLs on to the remaining walkers, who are their own entries in the heavy slot. The fire dragons are an increased threat and sitting in a falcon or wave serpent makes their transport a "must kill" for the opponent. What do you reckon?
If I were to drop a wave serpent, I think the double patrol helps a little better to squeeze a hard hitting heavy support (combining the walkers), elite or fast attack unit with the 160 point hole the serpent makes.
NuhJuhKuh, what would your argument be for the Hemlock over the CHE? Would the psychic power be of value over the CHE?
Another nice list! What are you expecting to play against btw? Or don’t you know yet? Either way, you’ve a lot of mobility and firepower here, and enough flexibility you should be able to adapt to whatever is across the table.
I suggested the Hemlock because you’d get more options, basically. In a vacuum, I dare say a CHE is better point-for-point, but I would argue you can have too much redundancy! You already have all it’s guns on other platforms in both lists, but you don’t have something that can autohit something 2-6 times at S12, or make moral checks a tougher proposition for your opponent.
But otoh... I’ve played all of two games of 9th ed. And I’m 1-0... and the game I won I brought one of each!
The person I'm up against gave me a list of Iron Hands, Word Bears, Knights and Tzeentch Daemons, so there's a range of stuff there. I do like to make lists fairly tailored to the meta, hence the starcannons for the anti-heavy infantry.
The Hemlock sounds like a good idea when you put it that way, I didn't magnetise the flyer as that's a pretty big job that I have no experience with! Another option could be to run some Wraithblades (another unit I have in the pile of shame) as a straight swap for the CHE for another threat unit that gives me an additional combat threat and get them up the board in a wave serpent. Detracts a little from the Aspect Host "theme" but could be better.
I definitely approve of Wraithblades! Axes and shields for my money - tough, a good target for “Protect”, and can still hit prett hard.
If you want to keep the Aspext Warrior theme, don’t discount Howling Banshees. I know they’re expensive for what they do... but a small unit in a Wave Serpent can charge something really far away and scalpel them out. In my first game of 9th (that I eventually lost), my min unit took out a unit of Eliminators that were parked on an Objective top of turn one.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Thank you both for your input, I think I'll tweak the list to allow for Jetlocks which means simply dropping the scorp claw and spirit stones to include them.
In relation to the fire dragons kingheff, I made a double patrol list to include them, at the expense of a war walker and a squad of avengers. This also allowed me to add some AMLs on to the remaining walkers, who are their own entries in the heavy slot. The fire dragons are an increased threat and sitting in a falcon or wave serpent makes their transport a "must kill" for the opponent. What do you reckon?
If I were to drop a wave serpent, I think the double patrol helps a little better to squeeze a hard hitting heavy support (combining the walkers), elite or fast attack unit with the 160 point hole the serpent makes.
NuhJuhKuh, what would your argument be for the Hemlock over the CHE? Would the psychic power be of value over the CHE?
I think you need to find a way to include the star lance and the scorpions claw. They're awesome and they really leverage the hunters of the ancient relics. get those extra attacks with high strength weaponry.
Maybe drop a jetbike on farseer and give him the wing relic?
Other than that. I think it's great. I haven't been brave enough to try my CHE or Fire dragons... been leaning on Hornets, Reapers and Falcons
@NuhJuhKuh, I'll give the axe and shield combo a try at some point! Just have to get magnetising I do think Banshees could be a shout when they get their power sword upgraded, as I did find their disruption to be quite useful in 8th edition, albeit countering overwatch a lot harder then.
@Gangrel767, I have to agree with you, getting those weapons fitted in was something I was intending to keep in my list as they do really benefit from Hunters. With the scorpions hitting first in combat always I feel that the claw could be a decent deterrent, and at worst, a target where other things in my army won't get shot. How have you found Dark Reapers? They seem quite squishy but they'd be an option if I decided to drop the CHE.
@Tyranid Horde - yeah, can’t wait for S4 power swords either! Hoping for some other buffs for the Aspect Warriors when our own Codex finally drops. Probably too much to hope for 12” D-Scythes though...
Anyway, thought id share the next list I’ll be playing. I’ve already shared it with my opponent, so not looking for any changes - unless there are any illegalities of course!
Tyranid Horde wrote: @NuhJuhKuh, I'll give the axe and shield combo a try at some point! Just have to get magnetising I do think Banshees could be a shout when they get their power sword upgraded, as I did find their disruption to be quite useful in 8th edition, albeit countering overwatch a lot harder then.
@Gangrel767, I have to agree with you, getting those weapons fitted in was something I was intending to keep in my list as they do really benefit from Hunters. With the scorpions hitting first in combat always I feel that the claw could be a decent deterrent, and at worst, a target where other things in my army won't get shot. How have you found Dark Reapers? They seem quite squishy but they'd be an option if I decided to drop the CHE.
To me they're old reliable. I usually try to fit in 2 * 3 Dark Reapers (1 being an exarch with tempest launcher) - I keep them near an autarch and typically run expert crafters. I have been having some fun with the shoot characters ability on the tempest launcher. They do well, and typically get targeted pretty low. Lots of AML or Starcannon shots in MSU fashion all over the table.
Brave man bringing an avatar NuhJuhKuh! I like the list and it's themed very well.
You'll have to let me know how you get on with your Dark Reapers, especially as you're lacking guide and doom for more rerolls.
On my side, I decided to bring the double patrol list to my game (a few posts above) and ended up playing against mass daemon engine Word Bearers. His list threw up some issues to do with a lack of high strength weapons, as I didn't really have enough in the list to deal with a Discolord, maulerfiend, forgefiend, a rhino and two venomcrawlers.
The mission was Rise of the Machine Spirit from the grand tournament mission pack and I chose bring it down, engage on all fronts and deploy scramblers as secondaries and he picked engage on all fronts, raise the banners and bring it down.
I realised by my turn one that bring it down was a bad move against his list, as I didn't have the best tools to deal with his daemon engines, and his masters of possessions were extremely good at buffing their invulnerable saves and providing them with rerolls. Something other than bring it down would have been much better.
He managed to get a turn one charge charge off with his warptimed maulerfiend and make an 11 inch charge into one of my falcons and pop it after other units had plinked a few wounds off it. The other falcon got reduced to one wound and effectively neutered it for the remainder of its life. My turn one was underwhelming, the disadvantage of getting charged turn one, failing to deny his psychic powers and generally poor rolling put me on the back foot. I made the mistake of charging his discolord with my shining spears, who I'd protected and quickened to cause a bit of chaos and doomed the discolord. I managed to get it down to three wounds, but a 3++ was hard to get past, even with shots from the CHE, laser lances and the extra attacks from Hunters of Ancient Relics. If I was smarter, I'd have gone for his other daemon engines as I would have more reliably killed at least one of those off.
In turn two, he knocked 10 wounds (I failed 5, 4+ armour saves) off my CHE with a forgefiend and cleaned it up with a squad of havocs. Needless to say, I didn't have board control and getting him shifted off objecitves was tough going but when I got to my turn 2, I focused on forcing the objective game by dropping in the hawks and scorpions in his deployment zone, and the warp spiders in my own to start deploy scramblers and guarantee engage on all fronts.
I managed to start turning the game in turn 3 by dragging my opponent off objectives or contesting the ones I couldn't shift him off. By turns 4 and 5, I was scoring 15 points for the primaries while maxing engage on all fronts and giving him 0 points for the primaries.
The game ended with a win for me, scoring 77 points to his 65. It was fun, but had I picked some other secondary over bring it down, I would have likely scored more points. It was my fault in turn one for even giving him the opportunity to make a charge with any of his units on turn one, and that would have likely made the game a bigger win for me.
In terms of the units I ran, the war walkers with the AML/Starcannon combo were excellent, providing decent fire and eating his troops and an obliterator and knocking the last four wounds off a venomcrawler and knocking wounds off a rhino. For 75 points, the fire they took and the points they killed made them completely worth it by the end of the game. I actually really liked the Scorpions, Hawks and Warp Spiders. For their cost, they were essential in achieving scramblers, engage on all fronts, helping to shift marines off objectives and in general, being a nuisance for my opponent. The fire dragons were okay, two of them died when getting out of the falcon when it went down turn one, but they did help against the vehicles and plinked a few wounds off a few things before they died. I misplayed with the spears, I shouldn't have charged the discolord turn one, so they were an expensive loss.
I'll probably need to play some more games with the list to work out some of the kinks, but so far, it did what I want by getting an easy 25 secondary points in engage and scramblers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thought I'd share this list, it's 4-0 on TTS against ultramarines, salamanders, black legion plus a knight and ad mech. Toughest game was against as mech, I went first and went aggressive taking out two squads of breachers and one balistari, in return I lost seven vypers and a falcon and I was pretty worried! Second turn though I picked up two squads of balistari and the rest of his breachers that only really left him with three of the Scorpius tanks and I ground him out in the end.
Normally I move the vypers and wraithlord/seerss aggressively, putting as much pressure on the midfield as I can. The falcons cover backfield. I usually take mental interrogation and engage on all fronts plus hopefully a kill objective. But the list is great for primary, it shoots and outlasts better than most, so I start ok and usually begin maxing primary turn three onwards.
A proper Ork horde would be worrying, I've got 70ish shuriken shots but against 120 boys that will start struggling.
@Tyranid Horde - well played! It can be demoralizing to take an early beating, but looks like you stuck to your plan and it paid off. Out of interest, do you think you could have achieved “Scramblers” and “Engage” with Rangers instead of the Aspect Warriors?
@Kingheff - that’s an interesting list! How do you find the, erm, 8th Edition level of starting CPs? When I’m building lists I tend to stick with single Battalions or Patrols because I don’t like the idea of starting with less than the maximum... but in my last game I ended with 4/5 unspent! What do you typically spend your CPs on?
I was hoping to play my next game this Saturday, but current government advice is to limit social contacts while Nurgle’s Rot is in resurgence, so waiting a few weeks before the “best of three” match. By then the new Marine Codex will be out, but I’ll be keeping my list because that’s how I roll!
Very roughly, my battleplan will involve:
>marching the Avatar behind the Wraithblades, hopefully drawing lots of firepower, but also eventually getting stuck into some power armour with his big-arse sword
>Maughan Ra + friends will deploy inside the Wave Serpent to protect them if I get second turn, but once they get a good spot to “fire and fade” from they’ll do their thing! The only other time I’ve played them, I had them next to my Farseer who had the “Natural Leader” trait I.e. innate Guide - hopefully re-rolling 1s from M-Ra will do something similar (as well as look cool)
>Guardians will camp out on my backfield Objectives, getting off cheeky Starstrike missiles and Celestial Shields as needed.
>Rangers and Spiders start in reserve, and go for maximum annoyance when they arrive
>Spears will also start off the table, and will use “Court of the Young King” + “Swooping Dive” to increase the odds of a successful charge out of deep strike. If I can place them near the Avatar too that’ll be gravy
>Seer Council will hide out of LOS (not a character!) and use strat that doubles range on Runes of Battle to get one key spell off a turn from relative safety. Protect on the Wraithblades or Shielded guardians will obviously be good, but so will Quicken on Spears, Blades or even Reapers. I’ve never used a Seer council before, but wanted to try this tactic after reading about it earlier in this thread
>Wraithlord can work independently or in support of other pieces - it’ll do well with Avatar and ‘blades I think, but equally well holding an objective either.
This should be a less one-sided affair than last game (hopefully not so far in the other direction!), and will look cool with the Avatar present! Haven’t decided on my secondaries yet, but sure I’ve at least three weeks to figure that out...
@Nuh Honestly, my list doesn't need many cp. My main ones are matchless agility and fire and fade for when I need to push something, usually a wraithlord, far forward turn one. Jumping forward 21" with a wraithlord is fun. Your tactics seem solid, I'd definitely try to drop the spears close enough to the avatar if you can, with court of the young king it's a great buff.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not sure which warlord trait you chose but falcons swiftness is nice for the avatar.
kingheff wrote: @Nuh Honestly, my list doesn't need many cp. My main ones are matchless agility and fire and fade for when I need to push something, usually a wraithlord, far forward turn one. Jumping forward 21" with a wraithlord is fun. Your tactics seem solid, I'd definitely try to drop the spears close enough to the avatar if you can, with court of the young king it's a great buff.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not sure which warlord trait you chose but falcons swiftness is nice for the avatar.
*furiously checks codex*
Huh - I could have SWORN Matchless Agility & Fire and Fade were infantry-keyword only! That’s a good tip, thanks!
Yes, Avatar has Falcon’s Swiftness, and I’ll be using Matckless Agility on the Wraithblades to make sure they keep up
However, nobody has any relics because no one can take them - Avatar has the Wailing Doom already, Maighan Ra has the Maugetar, and the Warlocks aren’t characters :( Ideally I’d give the Warlocks the Spiriti Stone of Unpronounceable Space-elf Sadness, but alas they’re a unit and not eligible.
I'm pretty sure that the Avatar can take a relic. He's not a named character and therefore eligible for one as far as I can tell.
I just checked and the Avatar can not take the wings since it is infantry only and he's a monster. According to the official FAQ the Avatar is not a named character. (4th Question)
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I'm pretty sure that the Avatar can take a relic. He's not a named character and therefore eligible for one as far as I can tell.
I just checked and the Avatar can not take the wings since it is infantry only and he's a monster. According to the official FAQ the Avatar is not a named character. (4th Question)
The FAQ for Craftworlds says the following:
Page 122 – Remnants of Glory
Change the second sentence of the first paragraph to read:
‘Avatars of Khaine and named characters such as Prince Yriel already have one or more artefacts, and cannot be given any of the following items.’
What do you think the status of wraithseers with wraith cannons is? The points cost of a wraith cannon is 0 according to the field manual. I may swap out the bright lances on my seers and save 60 PTS...
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I'm pretty sure that the Avatar can take a relic. He's not a named character and therefore eligible for one as far as I can tell.
I just checked and the Avatar can not take the wings since it is infantry only and he's a monster. According to the official FAQ the Avatar is not a named character. (4th Question)
The FAQ for Craftworlds says the following:
Page 122 – Remnants of Glory
Change the second sentence of the first paragraph to read:
‘Avatars of Khaine and named characters such as Prince Yriel already have one or more artefacts, and cannot be given any of the following items.’
so no, the Avatar cannot be given any relics.
Ah, I missed that they specified that the Avatar can not be given a relic under the remnant rule. The FAQ does however, say that he is not a named character. Which, I guess, means that he is not limited in his Warlord Trait selection. I can't think of anything else that named/unnamed makes a difference in how it is applied.
That looks like a really fun list Kingheff, I'm actually picking up some vypers on eBay as they look like excellent platforms for their points and the extra shuriken shots is a big help with hordes.
@NuhJuhKuh, you could definitely use your rangers to do actions like scramblers, their natural deepstrike is great for that if you don't mind giving up their character targeting abilities for a turn. They're also more durable than the average aspect warrior so they're tough to shift if you're doing anything like teleport homers.
I've been on the vypers hype train for a while, they're just great value for the points. Not being able to double up with heavy weapons is a bit of a shame but for the speed and fly it's not a big enough problem to bother me unduly.
kingheff wrote: I've been on the vypers hype train for a while, they're just great value for the points. Not being able to double up with heavy weapons is a bit of a shame but for the speed and fly it's not a big enough problem to bother me unduly.
Remember that heavy bolters will get an improved profile with D2 rendering light tanks useless as soon as they get targeted.
I think there's great value in both personally. There's not a lot between them defensively, better toughness and invulnerable Vs buffing potential and better save. Baseline, from 12 heavy bolter shots with no buffs, war walkers take 3.56 wounds and vypers 4 wounds so not a lot in it.
Just a little Heads up that we got a new FAQ with upgraded weapons.
Nothing exciting (power swords and flamer upgrades as expected) aside the Dragon's Breath of Fire dragons Exarch boosted up to range 12" as a Heavy flamer but our Fusion guns aren't considered Melta weapons so they remain equal.
Yeah, definitely looking like a struggle for craftworlds at the moment. It's hard to balance not giving away secondary objectives because pretty much all of our good units are vehicles and the infantry is expensive and fragile.
It's not only the bring it down, it's also a need for squishy psykers which allows for even more secondaries...
So, is it finally time? Have we suffered enough for the sins of 7th?
Feels like 5th edition Craftworlds all over again!
It was interesting to read that the go to secondaries for Harlies are engage on all fronts and deploy scramblers, two secondaries I managed to max out in my last game. I guess craftworlds can achieve a budget version of what harlies can do without having to soup in with harlies.
I think there is still some wiggle room in there for the less represented factions to develop some competitive lists that can make a stab at maxing out at least two secondaries and win unfavoured game that way. That being said, pure Craftworlds has a horrific win rate so maybe that's a pipe dream.
I think craftworlds can be good but I think the builds need refining. I think we need to focus on long range shooting first then moving out when it's safe to do so. Alternatively focusing on heavier units that can shrug off the mid range firepower/melee threat of marines. That's my approach at the moment and it's been working well. Had to drop my three wraithseers unfortunately, I know I'll give away max bring it down points but adding on max abhor the witch points as well meant that I have to dominate primary. So far it's worked well but against something that just spams troops on objectives I'd really struggle.
I'm going through a list building process and I'm thinking of including 3 Walkers and 3 Wraithlords in my list. But, I've come upon a quandry. I have 6 of each type of heavy weapon and I'd like to avoid having to find bits to outfit my army. With that in mind how would you arm the 6 figures?
I'm thinking of giving the WL flamers and a glaive as a base (but I'm not totally sold on the glaives). The list will also include 3 D-cannons so it's not mandatory to have all anti-vehicle weapons. Also I'm trying to make this an all comers list.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I'm going through a list building process and I'm thinking of including 3 Walkers and 3 Wraithlords in my list. But, I've come upon a quandry. I have 6 of each type of heavy weapon and I'd like to avoid having to find bits to outfit my army. With that in mind how would you arm the 6 figures?
I'm thinking of giving the WL flamers and a glaive as a base (but I'm not totally sold on the glaives). The list will also include 3 D-cannons so it's not mandatory to have all anti-vehicle weapons. Also I'm trying to make this an all comers list.
Thanks for your input
So you have 6 of every weapon, and you have 12 slots to fill? (2 for each walker, 2 for each lord).
6x starcannons is pretty much gonna be the best starting point.
I'd probably then say 6x missile launchers, as that gives you both anti-tank and anti-horde.
Brightlance probably not worth it compared to missiles.
Scatter lasers might be good if you expect to face more infantry/hordes than vehicles, and they're cheaper than missiles.
Which system would you place on which base? Originally I was thinking 6 star cannons on the walkers and 6 shurikens on the lords but then I figured that the walkers might be better with the shurikens since they have battle focus and can take full advantage of the cats assault status.
Seeing as War Walkers and Wraithlords are fairly similar gun platforms, going for a starcannon and AML on each one isn't a bad idea.
There is no penalty for splitting fire and having your weapons spread out across models leaves your opponent with some thinking to do.
You've made a good point using shuriken cannons on the war walkers to make the best use out of battle focus, but the problem with those and scatter lasers is that they're only D1 weapons, which means they'll kill very little despite the number of shots.
At the end of the day though, magnetise your weapons, they're pretty easy to do with war walkers and wraithlords and it gives your minis some longevity.
I recently run a list with a squad of 3 Warwalker with double scatter against GSC Their perform was excellent. The list was a Harlequin - Custom CWE with masterful shots (which helps a great deal weapons like shuriken cannons and scatters) and students of vaul.
They arrived on the enemy side and kill a bunch of Cultist GEQ. I really like the warwalkers and wasp
Against chaff scatter lasers are amazing, ignoring cover they can even pick up marines, especially in combination with jinx.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With the nerf to chapter masters I wonder if alaitoc is worth looking at again. Not flyer span obviously but a general long range shooting army, possibly with allies to provide screen/board control?
kingheff wrote: Against chaff scatter lasers are amazing, ignoring cover they can even pick up marines, especially in combination with jinx.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With the nerf to chapter masters I wonder if alaitoc is worth looking at again. Not flyer span obviously but a general long range shooting army, possibly with allies to provide screen/board control?
I could totally envision a backline detachment taking advantage of the Alaitoc rules and a detachment of midfield wraith units to screen for them. Our flyers might not make the most use of it, but given that a number of models can now get +1 to hit, sometimes specifically against flyers, could it still be worth having -2 to help negate that?
kingheff wrote: Against chaff scatter lasers are amazing, ignoring cover they can even pick up marines, especially in combination with jinx.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With the nerf to chapter masters I wonder if alaitoc is worth looking at again. Not flyer span obviously but a general long range shooting army, possibly with allies to provide screen/board control?
Missed that... whats the nerf?
Also... does the swooping hawk exarch get a +1 str power sword now?
According to the latest FAQ if your model has a "power sword" then you get to use the +1S version. If it is something like a "power sword", but not named a "power sword" ,then you are stuck with whatever is in the Codex.
Alaitoc flyers are definitely worth considering, I just don't think the spam list works.
Chapter masters now only choose a single unit to give the full rerolls to, otherwise just acting as a normal captain for reroll ones.
Yep, all power swords get the strength buff, hawk exarches included.
Alaitoc could be worth it for potentially running a vanguard of night spinners or fire prisms to give them a little bit more survivability and sticking a flyer in there too would add to that. Considering the likes of the CHE and Fire Prisms having rerolls for free or at the cost of 1CP, the -1 to hit might add a good chance of survival to allow a gunline portion of the army to be useful.
Add that to a battalion that focuses on board control you might be on to something (Harlies are an easy option here)
Anything that might allow fire prisms to be usable in a competitive sense would be great.
I have the idea of running 3 min squads of dark reapers and an Autarch all in a wave serpent for protection against 1st turn shenanigans. the trick is to use Custom CWE's Expert crafters and maybe the masterful shots so that you have 9 dark reapers that reroll 1s to hit and have 3 rerolls to hit and to wound (and also ignore cover) maybe taking the exarch's rapid shot for extra dakka
Generally I prefer a bigger block of reapers firing and fading from behind obscuring terrain to minimise the chance of being shot back. Certainly the MSU approach is good for efficiency but I'd worry about them being shot off the board, reapers are one of those units that will get targeted hard if your opponent gets the chance.
I have the idea of running 3 min squads of dark reapers and an Autarch all in a wave serpent for protection against 1st turn shenanigans. the trick is to use Custom CWE's Expert crafters and maybe the masterful shots so that you have 9 dark reapers that reroll 1s to hit and have 3 rerolls to hit and to wound (and also ignore cover) maybe taking the exarch's rapid shot for extra dakka
What do you think about it?
This was my main go to configuration in 8th and it is savagely effective. But you have to really consider the placement/positioning as the reapers are really fragile so ensure terrain and screening is of paramount importance.. I always took 2x tempest exarchs with rain of death and 1x AML exarch+double tap power (skyhawk missle strat). Honestly, I dont think they even need an autarch to babysit them. Without a reaper launcher he's bit of wasted points just for reapers. I run magun ra a couple of times to get around craftworld trait limitations for reroll ones but hes just too expensive IMO.
BUT if you throw in some other long-range firepower in the backfield like wraith lord etc. I think its good play for the first 2 turns. But you just wont be able to maintain that castle after that IMO as things will need to move to cap/ counter charge. To be honets my 9th experiance is pretty much non-existant.
Played a game last week with my wraith themed Eldar. Wrath of the Dead and Hunters of Hidden Relics is such a great combo for a game centered around taking and holding objectives. Its too bad that Iyanden trait doesn't even come close to matching this. I just say they are from the House of Ulthanesh and this is their traits.
Even regular wraithguard become better in combat with that extra attack. Axe Guard are just plain nasty.
I have the idea of running 3 min squads of dark reapers and an Autarch all in a wave serpent for protection against 1st turn shenanigans. the trick is to use Custom CWE's Expert crafters and maybe the masterful shots so that you have 9 dark reapers that reroll 1s to hit and have 3 rerolls to hit and to wound (and also ignore cover) maybe taking the exarch's rapid shot for extra dakka
What do you think about it?
I'm in the same boat as kingheff, I prefer a big squad of reapers that have the potential to fire and fade behind terrain pieces while a guide seer baby sits them. One of my favourite tricks during more competitive games was to fire and fade the unit into a terrain feature while leaving the reapers out of LoS to the majority of my opponents army and screen out the rest of the board so the only "good" place to deepstrike is behind the reapers to activate forewarned with a farseer nearby. Guide lasting until my next psychic phase was always a lovely addition too. Bloodletters, grey knights and obliterators never had a good time and it was a nice trick to help board control.
That trick isn't as applicable with 3x3 squads, hence my preference for big squads. I will say that in 9th, I am not sure Dark Reapers are worth it, with the prevalence of T5, 3W models like custodes and gravis marines running around reducing the killing potential of big and small squads. Expensive, 1W T3 infantry are just too easily killed in a meta which promotes proactive plays and more board control than what was common in 8th.
bullyboy wrote: Played a game last week with my wraith themed Eldar. Wrath of the Dead and Hunters of Hidden Relics is such a great combo for a game centered around taking and holding objectives. Its too bad that Iyanden trait doesn't even come close to matching this. I just say they are from the House of Ulthanesh and this is their traits.
Even regular wraithguard become better in combat with that extra attack. Axe Guard are just plain nasty.
Nice. Do you run two squads of Axe guard with wave serpents? I haven't played any Eldar in 9th yet, so I have been trying to get a feel for a feel for the best uses for wraith.
I am planning to turn a Wraithlord kit into a Wraitseer and combine a wraith host type detachment with your standard falcon and DA back field.
I have the idea of running 3 min squads of dark reapers and an Autarch all in a wave serpent for protection against 1st turn shenanigans. the trick is to use Custom CWE's Expert crafters and maybe the masterful shots so that you have 9 dark reapers that reroll 1s to hit and have 3 rerolls to hit and to wound (and also ignore cover) maybe taking the exarch's rapid shot for extra dakka
What do you think about it?
I'm in the same boat as kingheff, I prefer a big squad of reapers that have the potential to fire and fade behind terrain pieces while a guide seer baby sits them. One of my favourite tricks during more competitive games was to fire and fade the unit into a terrain feature while leaving the reapers out of LoS to the majority of my opponents army and screen out the rest of the board so the only "good" place to deepstrike is behind the reapers to activate forewarned with a farseer nearby. Guide lasting until my next psychic phase was always a lovely addition too. Bloodletters, grey knights and obliterators never had a good time and it was a nice trick to help board control.
That trick isn't as applicable with 3x3 squads, hence my preference for big squads. I will say that in 9th, I am not sure Dark Reapers are worth it, with the prevalence of T5, 3W models like custodes and gravis marines running around reducing the killing potential of big and small squads. Expensive, 1W T3 infantry are just too easily killed in a meta which promotes proactive plays and more board control than what was common in 8th.
Ohh yeah totes. I think the reapers have done really bad out of the transition/new marines.. With the mod cap their always hitting on 3+ rule they are paying premium for doesnt really seem worth it anymore. Flat damage 3 is nice but not at the current pts... and not at -2 With the smaller table the 48" range also no longer means as much. Before could back line them if you get hammer and anvil type deployment and just out range stuff forcing opponents to use long rage usualy heavy AT guns in order to remove them which was very overkill for T3 1W models. Now not so much.
The MSU approach is still sound I think but with the terrain rules I probably would opt for bigegr blob fire and fade. But then would just take falcolns/star cannon platforms insetead.
I think reapers are still very good offensively, assuming guide, doom and rapid shot, 10 reapers kill 11 two wound marines and pretty much six gravis marines. Assuming you can keep them safe reapers are still strong. With less out of line of sight shooting in marines now I can see reapers being easier to use.
I have the idea of running 3 min squads of dark reapers and an Autarch all in a wave serpent for protection against 1st turn shenanigans. the trick is to use Custom CWE's Expert crafters and maybe the masterful shots so that you have 9 dark reapers that reroll 1s to hit and have 3 rerolls to hit and to wound (and also ignore cover) maybe taking the exarch's rapid shot for extra dakka
What do you think about it?
I'm in the same boat as kingheff, I prefer a big squad of reapers that have the potential to fire and fade behind terrain pieces while a guide seer baby sits them. One of my favourite tricks during more competitive games was to fire and fade the unit into a terrain feature while leaving the reapers out of LoS to the majority of my opponents army and screen out the rest of the board so the only "good" place to deepstrike is behind the reapers to activate forewarned with a farseer nearby. Guide lasting until my next psychic phase was always a lovely addition too. Bloodletters, grey knights and obliterators never had a good time and it was a nice trick to help board control.
That trick isn't as applicable with 3x3 squads, hence my preference for big squads. I will say that in 9th, I am not sure Dark Reapers are worth it, with the prevalence of T5, 3W models like custodes and gravis marines running around reducing the killing potential of big and small squads. Expensive, 1W T3 infantry are just too easily killed in a meta which promotes proactive plays and more board control than what was common in 8th.
I want to thank y'all for the interesting view points. like you said, the option of running a big squad or at least a 5 man squad and the farseer for protection has workout for me in the past. I have some doubts of the applicability of the forewarned strat. against GSC shenanigans ant the like.
The point of them being so squishy i agree too. They're very good but easy to kill
I do think the forewarned strat is the same as every other kind of reactive stratagem, it can be played around by a good opponent but it can force your opponent to make errors, which is what I quite like about reactive stratagems in the game.
So while I enjoyed the trick, it was an occasionally used one and you shouldn't build around it.
I do think I will have to try them out again, be it online or in person, but I feel spending over 350 points for a unit of those base stats is a bit too much.
I've been having fun on TTS with a Biel tan battalion featuring two squads of three war walkers with star cannons, using guide and the natural leader warlord trait to give both units guide.
I've used forewarned a couple of times, my warlord is a farseer and naturally baby-sits one unit opening up the forewarned strat. Mostly it stops deep striking with valuable units (or they come in behind obscuring terrain) but I had one time when a guy dropped down six plasma inceptors, despite my warning, he lost half the squad and the game.
It's a great stratagem since it can either punish or disrupt your opponent's plan.
My top units of 9e so far have been the Yncarne and msu shining spears with Hunters + Hail of Doom. Each squad gets skilled rider for a 3++.
They deploy very defensively and I can normally get them all out of LoS turn one. Each turn I yeet one forward with Quicken for a 42" threat range. Great for being where I need them, tying in CC, killing backfield campers, etc.
I also still dig mechdar, and just lean into Bring it Down.
Our troops are the worst in the game. Strongly considering running spearhead and outrider...
Yeah, I think trying to avoid giving up bring it down is a waste of time unfortunately. Whether it's transports or other vehicles, it's just really hard to come up with a list that doesn't melt without them.
I still think three squads of avengers is decent enough for the utility of the infantry keyword and they're only a cp to reserve all three if necessary.
Given the proliferation of largely effective AT weaponry/units at the moment I like your list, KingHeff. A lot of smaller vehicles seems like it would serve to overwhelm the opponents availability of AT in their list. That being said though, wouldn't each vehicle provide points or if you take a unit of 3 vypers, do they have to destroy the entire unit, or would each model provide the score?
That's the idea behind the list, only AT weapons really threaten it and it's got a lot of cheap wounds to soak up the AT players bring. I have changed the list because three wraithseers just give up too many secondary points but the principle remains, flood the board with cheap tough units that largely nullify anti infantry gunfire whilst packing enough of a punch to clear objectives for things like vypers to sit on.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of course I know I start 15 points down from bring it down but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make because the list won't work any other way.
Up to fifteen points per secondary, some are worth less.
Maximum of fifteen primary points per round, maxing out at 45 in each game. So a total of 90 points plus 10 available for a tabletop standard painted army.
General tactical question- do you think that a Wraithlord with 2 flamers and nothing else would work as a good distraction Carnifex? It's 110 points but it could do some work if ignored and the 2 flamers could throw some units into a tizzy. Also with the new rules if your opponent closes with the Wraithlord and doesn't kill it then you get another round of shooting and (probably poor) melee out of it.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: General tactical question- do you think that a Wraithlord with 2 flamers and nothing else would work as a good distraction Carnifex? It's 110 points but it could do some work if ignored and the 2 flamers could throw some units into a tizzy. Also with the new rules if your opponent closes with the Wraithlord and doesn't kill it then you get another round of shooting and (probably poor) melee out of it.
I dont know why you wouldn't at least give it 1 star cannon though... If you paying 110 for a distraction carnifex might as well go the extra mile and get some mileage out of it...
With only 4 attacks and WS3 (before degradation) it just doesnt kill enough MEQ in CC plus flamers. The flamers should do some work against T3 chaff. However I believe any opponent worth his salt will just ignore it and throw chaff at it which it just won't be able to kill quick enough. But if you combo star cannons with melee and expert crafters it gains a lot of duality and its threat is exponentially increased meaning it will more likely be targeted.
Its got a decent 8" movement on top profile and no longer suffers penalty for moving so you ideally want it marching towards either some High T 3w elite infantry or a vehicle.
However it just is not a great unit as much as I hate to admit it. As a weapon platform it is outclassed by much more efficient war walkers, highly mobile Vypers and Falcons which offer utility to transport.
Its paying premium for a T8 3+ which is just laughable in the world of imperial melta.
It still has a place in casual games and will hold its own in most friendly games I think. I love my wraithlords, and will just run 3 regardless pf how bad they are ..
But realistically if you looking up the ante from a "competative" standpoint id take falcolns, or vypers or war walker instead.
If you do want to run them Id recommend using expert crafters and masters of concealment for a 2+ cover save and try hide them behind terrain to get modifiers and hang out in the backfield as a counter charge piece and a nice bit of dakka. You can drop tears of isha as well for a cheeky heal.
After taking several losses over the past couple of months trying to make a Craftworld/Harlequin army that did not give up Bring Them Down points, I went back to a mechanized Craftworld list for a one day tourney. All three games were against Marines; Dark Angels, Dark Angels, Ravenguard. I went back to a mechanized list as I was more comfortable rules wise, it is quicker for me to play, and I banked on Space Marines being the most common army (which turned out to be true).
A few key lessons I learned.
-Be patient and try not to over extend the army. If I felt I would over expose a unit just to get Engage on All Fronts on turn 1, I simply didn't get the points. My turn one movement was a bit more conservative, even with two fliers. Out of all three games, I lost a total of 5 tanks and 0 fliers. In the later rounds, after eliminating key threats, I would be able to push out earning the points.
- I would generally only hold two objectives. My focus would be to remove my opponent from enough objectives so he would not hold more than me. In the early rounds, this proved difficult as Marines have fantastic board presence. However, I could make up the deficit in later rounds.
- A unit of 3 Hornets and Forewarning removes Eliminators. This ability creates significant challenges for opponents as I would get the opportunity to position this unit in such a way to maximize LOS. If they wanted to threaten my army, they would end up getting shot by 18 Hornet Pulse Lasers first (with Guide).
- Deploy Scramblers is an auto take. 3x5 Dire Avengers finally have utility for me. 2x5 start in Webway Strike and 1x5 started in a Wave Serpent. Turn 1, DA get out of Wave Serpent and Deploy Scramblers. Turns 2 and 3 each have a DA squad drop down and Deploy Scramblers. I earned max points every fame. I will experiment with Strategic Reserve and see if I get as much utility as Webway Strike. It will save me 2 CP.
-While We Stand, We Fight worked well. This is very matchup dependent. If I feel my opponentdoes not have enough shooting, I took this and gained max points out of the two games I chose this secondary.
In the end, I went 2-1 and took 5th out of 20. I lost to balanced Dark Angel army whom I had trouble removing from objectives. Azreal combined with judicious use of Transhuman Physiology proved quite difficult to eliminate key units.
The list was a lot of high AP shooting.
Farseer
2 Warlock Conclave (use for long range Jinx)
3 x 5 Dire Avengers
3 Hornets (one unit)
3 Wave Serpents
2 Falcons
2 Crimson Hunter Exarch.
Starcannons, Pulse Lasers, Hornet Pulse Lasers with Expert Crafters worked well. However, this list will still suffer against a horde type army.
kingheff wrote: Against chaff scatter lasers are amazing, ignoring cover they can even pick up marines, especially in combination with jinx.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With the nerf to chapter masters I wonder if alaitoc is worth looking at again. Not flyer span obviously but a general long range shooting army, possibly with allies to provide screen/board control?
Missed that... whats the nerf?
Also... does the swooping hawk exarch get a +1 str power sword now?
Masters don't have aura of reroll everything. Instead it's aura of rr1's and can get upgrade that gives full rerolls to one core(so basically anything not vehicle(except dreadnought) or centurions) or character.
They are less of buff everything around and more of buff one nasty unit and be monsters on their own right(you can literally make T8 chapter masters if you wish...).
So with less full rerolls the -1 to hit has bigger impact than before. Before hit accuracy was 75%, now it is 58% except for one unit(with no vehicles(bar dreadnought) or centurions benefitting from that)
Leo_the_Rat wrote: General tactical question- do you think that a Wraithlord with 2 flamers and nothing else would work as a good distraction Carnifex? It's 110 points but it could do some work if ignored and the 2 flamers could throw some units into a tizzy. Also with the new rules if your opponent closes with the Wraithlord and doesn't kill it then you get another round of shooting and (probably poor) melee out of it.
The lord can definitely work as a distraction/move blocker but I find the best way is to give him shuriken cannon/s and advance him then fire and fade giving him a 15+d6 inch movement which should really get him up in your opponent's face for 110 PTS and 1cp.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Sarigar wrote: After taking several losses over the past couple of months trying to make a Craftworld/Harlequin army that did not give up Bring Them Down points, I went back to a mechanized Craftworld list for a one day tourney. All three games were against Marines; Dark Angels, Dark Angels, Ravenguard. I went back to a mechanized list as I was more comfortable rules wise, it is quicker for me to play, and I banked on Space Marines being the most common army (which turned out to be true).
A few key lessons I learned.
-Be patient and try not to over extend the army. If I felt I would over expose a unit just to get Engage on All Fronts on turn 1, I simply didn't get the points. My turn one movement was a bit more conservative, even with two fliers. Out of all three games, I lost a total of 5 tanks and 0 fliers. In the later rounds, after eliminating key threats, I would be able to push out earning the points.
- I would generally only hold two objectives. My focus would be to remove my opponent from enough objectives so he would not hold more than me. In the early rounds, this proved difficult as Marines have fantastic board presence. However, I could make up the deficit in later rounds.
- A unit of 3 Hornets and Forewarning removes Eliminators. This ability creates significant challenges for opponents as I would get the opportunity to position this unit in such a way to maximize LOS. If they wanted to threaten my army, they would end up getting shot by 18 Hornet Pulse Lasers first (with Guide).
- Deploy Scramblers is an auto take. 3x5 Dire Avengers finally have utility for me. 2x5 start in Webway Strike and 1x5 started in a Wave Serpent. Turn 1, DA get out of Wave Serpent and Deploy Scramblers. Turns 2 and 3 each have a DA squad drop down and Deploy Scramblers. I earned max points every fame. I will experiment with Strategic Reserve and see if I get as much utility as Webway Strike. It will save me 2 CP.
-While We Stand, We Fight worked well. This is very matchup dependent. If I feel my opponentdoes not have enough shooting, I took this and gained max points out of the two games I chose this secondary.
In the end, I went 2-1 and took 5th out of 20. I lost to balanced Dark Angel army whom I had trouble removing from objectives. Azreal combined with judicious use of Transhuman Physiology proved quite difficult to eliminate key units.
The list was a lot of high AP shooting.
Farseer
2 Warlock Conclave (use for long range Jinx)
3 x 5 Dire Avengers
3 Hornets (one unit)
3 Wave Serpents
2 Falcons
2 Crimson Hunter Exarch.
Starcannons, Pulse Lasers, Hornet Pulse Lasers with Expert Crafters worked well. However, this list will still suffer against a horde type army.
I honestly don't know if you can make a good craftworlds list without giving up bring it down, I can't anyway. But it's ironic that craftworlds are basically the worst army in 40k but we actually match up pretty well against marines!
Leo_the_Rat wrote: General tactical question- do you think that a Wraithlord with 2 flamers and nothing else would work as a good distraction Carnifex? It's 110 points but it could do some work if ignored and the 2 flamers could throw some units into a tizzy. Also with the new rules if your opponent closes with the Wraithlord and doesn't kill it then you get another round of shooting and (probably poor) melee out of it.
The lord can definitely work as a distraction/move blocker but I find the best way is to give him shuriken cannon/s and advance him then fire and fade giving him a 15+d6 inch movement which should really get him up in your opponent's face for 110 PTS and 1cp.
That's a really interesting variation on what I was thinking. Do you think it would be worth it for the Wraithlord to have 2 cannons (120 pts) and use a 2nd CP to guarantee him a "6" on the advance (thereby giving him a 22" move and shooting)?
I was originally just thinking that I would throw him up front into my opponents face and use him as cover for the rest of my army while they deal with him in their lines.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: General tactical question- do you think that a Wraithlord with 2 flamers and nothing else would work as a good distraction Carnifex? It's 110 points but it could do some work if ignored and the 2 flamers could throw some units into a tizzy. Also with the new rules if your opponent closes with the Wraithlord and doesn't kill it then you get another round of shooting and (probably poor) melee out of it.
The lord can definitely work as a distraction/move blocker but I find the best way is to give him shuriken cannon/s and advance him then fire and fade giving him a 15+d6 inch movement which should really get him up in your opponent's face for 110 PTS and 1cp.
That's a really interesting variation on what I was thinking. Do you think it would be worth it for the Wraithlord to have 2 cannons (120 pts) and use a 2nd CP to guarantee him a "6" on the advance (thereby giving him a 22" move and shooting)?
I was originally just thinking that I would throw him up front into my opponents face and use him as cover for the rest of my army while they deal with him in their lines.
I think the second cannon is usually worth it personally.
The second cp will usually be game specific, if you just want to throw him up field it's enough to just have him fire and fade, if you really need to move between some terrain to block off your opponent's movement and only a 4+" advance will do it then the guaranteed 6" advance is definitely worth a cp.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: General tactical question- do you think that a Wraithlord with 2 flamers and nothing else would work as a good distraction Carnifex? It's 110 points but it could do some work if ignored and the 2 flamers could throw some units into a tizzy. Also with the new rules if your opponent closes with the Wraithlord and doesn't kill it then you get another round of shooting and (probably poor) melee out of it.
The lord can definitely work as a distraction/move blocker but I find the best way is to give him shuriken cannon/s and advance him then fire and fade giving him a 15+d6 inch movement which should really get him up in your opponent's face for 110 PTS and 1cp.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
Sarigar wrote: After taking several losses over the past couple of months trying to make a Craftworld/Harlequin army that did not give up Bring Them Down points, I went back to a mechanized Craftworld list for a one day tourney. All three games were against Marines; Dark Angels, Dark Angels, Ravenguard. I went back to a mechanized list as I was more comfortable rules wise, it is quicker for me to play, and I banked on Space Marines being the most common army (which turned out to be true).
A few key lessons I learned.
-Be patient and try not to over extend the army. If I felt I would over expose a unit just to get Engage on All Fronts on turn 1, I simply didn't get the points. My turn one movement was a bit more conservative, even with two fliers. Out of all three games, I lost a total of 5 tanks and 0 fliers. In the later rounds, after eliminating key threats, I would be able to push out earning the points.
- I would generally only hold two objectives. My focus would be to remove my opponent from enough objectives so he would not hold more than me. In the early rounds, this proved difficult as Marines have fantastic board presence. However, I could make up the deficit in later rounds.
- A unit of 3 Hornets and Forewarning removes Eliminators. This ability creates significant challenges for opponents as I would get the opportunity to position this unit in such a way to maximize LOS. If they wanted to threaten my army, they would end up getting shot by 18 Hornet Pulse Lasers first (with Guide).
- Deploy Scramblers is an auto take. 3x5 Dire Avengers finally have utility for me. 2x5 start in Webway Strike and 1x5 started in a Wave Serpent. Turn 1, DA get out of Wave Serpent and Deploy Scramblers. Turns 2 and 3 each have a DA squad drop down and Deploy Scramblers. I earned max points every fame. I will experiment with Strategic Reserve and see if I get as much utility as Webway Strike. It will save me 2 CP.
-While We Stand, We Fight worked well. This is very matchup dependent. If I feel my opponentdoes not have enough shooting, I took this and gained max points out of the two games I chose this secondary.
In the end, I went 2-1 and took 5th out of 20. I lost to balanced Dark Angel army whom I had trouble removing from objectives. Azreal combined with judicious use of Transhuman Physiology proved quite difficult to eliminate key units.
The list was a lot of high AP shooting.
Farseer
2 Warlock Conclave (use for long range Jinx)
3 x 5 Dire Avengers
3 Hornets (one unit)
3 Wave Serpents
2 Falcons
2 Crimson Hunter Exarch.
Starcannons, Pulse Lasers, Hornet Pulse Lasers with Expert Crafters worked well. However, this list will still suffer against a horde type army.
I honestly don't know if you can make a good craftworlds list without giving up bring it down, I can't anyway. But it's ironic that craftworlds are basically the worst army in 40k but we actually match up pretty well against marines!
I don't think we are the wrose army by a long shot.
We are certaily dated! lol.
I really tried to get away from mechanized lists, but ended up coming back to it. Marines locally are popular (again). The list did seem to match up well. I'm going to play more games and see where I can shore up weaknesses. Hopefully, we will see a new codex in early 2021.
According to 40k stats.com craftworlds have the lowest win rate of any army with enough games to get a realistic picture of how they perform. This is based off competitive play so isn't necessarily representative of a more casual game. I think it's probably skewed by some competitive players moving away to, say, Harlequins leaving the die hard eldar players who may not be quite so competitively focused.
kingheff wrote: According to 40k stats.com craftworlds have the lowest win rate of any army with enough games to get a realistic picture of how they perform. This is based off competitive play so isn't necessarily representative of a more casual game. I think it's probably skewed by some competitive players moving away to, say, Harlequins leaving the die hard eldar players who may not be quite so competitively focused.
Pete (of 40k Stats) also said Craftworlds are the broken codex of 9th ed right now. As in they need fixing, not OP.
I think it's a pretty accurate statement unfortunately, a combination of power creep and the changes to modifiers have made our forces too fragile. Offensively I think we're still ok, although our melee lacks volume of attacks, but defensively we just can't take what armies like sisters, ad mech and marines put out.
I've been having decent success with my pretty tough/high quantity of wounds approach but pick up games on TTS are different beast from top table competitive games.
I have been playing against Salamanders mostly.
It has truly been a disheartening experience to see waveserpents rendered, almost useless in the face of double tapping meltaguns.
I've also been giving up max bring it down points every game, and not being able to find a good 3rd secondary to combine with engage on all fronts and deploy scramblers.
But rejoice, for I have found some tricks.
I cut all of my wave serpents. All 3. It's sad, I know. My reapers and dire avengers walk now.
But what that has enabled is the secondary objective: While We Stand We Fight.
The 3 highest point models I have chosen are 2 Farseer Skyrunners, and a Wraithlord I put into strategic reserves. While the wraithlord is typically quite fragile against many of today's weapons, by hiding him until the endgame I can ensure that the main threats are removed and he can come in and hold down an objective/table quarter without too much resistance usually.
Anything that can turn a fair fight into a game of keep away, at least helps..
Yeah, finding it hard to justify wave serpents these days. Minus one damage against meltas just doesn't cut it really, I think going for cheaper more offensively focused units is the way.
I think salamanders took a bit of a hit with the change to their re-rolls but they still look strong.
Sounds like you're approaching the game correctly and trying to find solutions.
I've been running a 10-blob of axewraiths recently, deployed on the line, and using phantasm to refuse flank if I don't get first turn.
It's working, they are a serious challenge to remove when powered up, and with 10 in the unit they can often trigger Hunters +1A. Second triat used to be Wrath of the dead, obviously, but I've found Headstrong to be the best pick recently. It plays better with other units (massive for deepstrikers and stacks beautifully on the Banshees' +3") and I find the big blob is pretty lethal already, and half its job is taking up space and holding the line, both of whice often depend on making those crucial charges to help mitigate their terrible movement. Stack ghostwalk on them and they become very reliable chargers.
My mistake previously was being wedded to 5 in a Serpent. Screw that, Serpents are meltafodder these days. Also 5 don't do enough damage, and 2x5 split your buffs awfully.
I’ve been having good success against some local Space Marine players using a list concept I got from the Splintermind podcast. The core is a squad of three Hornets with pulse lasers with Guide from the Farseer, two Warp Hunters, and a squad of three War Walkers with double star cannons. I run EC and MoC as my custom Craftworld traits (surprise, surprise). My HQs are a Farseer on bike with Doom and Guide, and Autarch on bike. I take 3 x 5 DA and one squad of Striking Scorpions which can all start in reserve/deepstrike to get Deploy Scramblers and Engage. And I usually round it out with two CHEs with star cannons. Forewarned on the guided Hornets is great for killing or severely crippling Eradicators or plasma Inceptors that arrive from reserve. It does give up Bring it Down but it has blistering offense. I’ve been behind every game so far on turns 2-3 but make it up on turns 4-5 by basically tabling my opponents. It’s probably not going to win any tournaments but it is ridiculously efficient at killing Primaris and Gravis marine bodies.
Hornets have done really well out of 9th.
I wonder what the new FW book going to bring to the table. My wraithseers and shadow specters are anxiously awaiting their next outing
Argive wrote: Hornets have done really well out of 9th.
I wonder what the new FW book going to bring to the table. My wraithseers and shadow specters are anxiously awaiting their next outing
I'm curious about the Hornet. I've been using a squadron of three and they have been the best unit in my army.
How do they survive? A unit of 3 is 360pts with T6 and no invuln, and scream 'kill me, I am a Guide alpha unit'. They're not easy to hide, as their combined footprint is significant. What gives?
6-7 other vehicles, 48" range shooting, Fortune , -1 to be hit if you opt to Advance, Fire and Fade. Comninations of these become a significant deterrent in my games.
My last tourney a couple weeks back and I lost a total of two Hornets over the course of three games.
Advancing is interesting now with terrain interactions. If you identify a target that will already be at a -1 to hit, go ahead and Advance move (with the CTM).
Although the new FW book is nearly upon us, things could change.
Masters of Concealment for 2+ save if attacker is outside of 12 inches. Spirit Stone for 6+++. -1 to hit through advancing or LFR. Fire and Fading. They also have a very low profile and if using the proper amount of terrain in 9th, it’s not too difficult to hide them. If you can’t hide at least 1-2 key units behind obscuring terrain, you don’t have enough terrain on the board. Plus threat saturation with Star Cannon toting War Walker, Vypers,CHE, Spears, etc. I’ve found them to be more resilient than one might think.
I would also argue that they're not a prime guide target at all. The safest way to run them is in single-hornet units, and run them as expert crafters so each hornet rerolls a hit and wound every time they fire.
Much easier to hide the unit, as a single one poking from cover doesn't mean the whole unit gets wiped by eradicators. And eradicators will overkill one and waste a bunch of shots.
I honestly can't think of a time when grouping them into a big unit is a benefit. Sure you gain stratagem ability, and you can cast spells on them, but they don't really gain a whole lot from it compared to just leaving them with expert crafters and calling it a day. Frees up guide and strats for other units.
"I honestly can't think of a time when grouping them into a big unit is a benefit."
- I think I see the logic of it: Guide, Fortune, Fire & Fade, Cloud Strike if terrain is no good, Feigned Retreat, Lightning fast reactions if you didn't advance, and a withering Forewarned volley.
But I think about cover and I'm doubting whether they can be hidden effectively turn one. As you say, if a squad of eliminators (or even worse retributors) can draw LoS to just one of them, it's goodnight to 360pts pretty trivially.
I run them in a unit of three. Forewarning plays a big part of it. Eradicators were popular in my last event. Deathwing was another popular unit. A lot came down to forcing my opponent to come down and get shot or set up in such a way or risk not being able to utilize the unit(s).
Irillyth - 140pts,
4++, still -1 to hit, -1 to Enemy LD when within 6', Deep Strike, Shadow Spectres reroll 1's within 6'
24'' Assault 3, -4, 3 Damage, S5, -3 2 Damage in Melee
Shadow Spectres - 26pts, 5-10 models in Squad, still -1 to hit
Prism Rifle - Dispersed Assault D6, 18’, S5, -1, 1 Damage Blast
Focused - Assault 1, 24’, S3, -3, 3 Damage
Hornets - 80pts, -1 hit base, Starcannons 5pts, Bright Lance & Aeldari Missile Launcher 10pts
Heavy weapons reduced for Hornets
Hornet Pulse Laser - Lost -1AP, 36’, S7, Same damage? 5pts
Warp Hunter - 195pts
S12, D3+3 Damage in Artillery Mode, 24’’, AP4, Blast, D3 Shots Lost 12 in Artillery Mode
Flamer Mode - 12’, Flat Heavy 3, S12, AP4, D6 Damage, Auto Hit
Wraithseer - Doesn’t mention points level
9W, Access to Runes of Battle, Cast 1 Power per turn, Lost Character rule, 5++, doesn’t profile degrade, Heavy Support choice.
Eldritch Wraith Construct - Enemy ranged AP1, is changed to AP0
Ghost Spear - S10, AP3, D3+3 Damage
Nightwing - 220pts
BS3, T6, 14W, Can go into Hover, wings extend, loses airborne, hard to hit, agile interceptor, 5++, +1 to other enemy aircraft units
Skathach - 325pts
55pts per Deathshroud Cannon, 65pts Inferno Lance, can mix and match the Scattershield
Inferno Lance - 24’, S8, AP4, D6 Damage, within half range D6+2 Damage
Still has the Webway Shunt
Revenant - 1500pts, Distortion Field 4++ against ranged attacks
Sonic Lance -18’, Heavy 3D6, S4, AP3, auto hits, wounds Infantry on 2+
Pulse Laser - Revenant Pulsar, Heavy 6, 60’, S12, AP4, Damage 4
Cloudburst Missile Launcher - 36’, Heavy 2D6, S8, AP2, 2 Damage Blast
Automatically Appended Next Post: The points decrease for the Hornet Pulse Laser really stood out for the army I play. I need to see how much difference S6 vs S7 will be, but I'm fairly happy with the change.
The Wraithseer appears fairly gutted. Moving to HS and losing the Character keyword will surely reduce how often I use one.
Not sure about Shadow Spectres and their Phoenix Lord. May be a typo on the weapon strength (S3?).
Thanks Sarigar! Some really interesting changes I have to say, and a lot of good ones.
The Lynx looks interesting now, I didn't expect that at all. Great model. 220pts is a 150pt haircut, and its gun is hugely improved too: 48’, Heavy 6, S9, AP3, Damage 3 is a great profile for 9e.
If it keeps its other rules, it can declare lumbering flyer and move out of CC and still shoot which is great.
1st typo i saw hornets are equipped with Shuriken cannons base then in wargear part it says you can swap the hornet pulse lasers for heavy weapons.....
Also Shadow Spectres got a hefty boost in weapon range 18" and 24" for flamer and prism, but prism it's just assault 1 now (still S6 at least)
The Lynx it's just a gravtank with autoadvance 12" but lost Sonic lance option.
Having access to runes of battle + smite + runes of fortune (?)(great use of witchstrike power) and not being HQ is great. It's lost relatively little and gained so so much.
HQ is probably the most congested slot and heavy support is congested too but much easier to get slots by taking something like a Spearhead
The revenant is down to 1500pts if anyone's feeling masochistic enough to try and build an effective army from 500pts?
The Hornet is the winner for CWE by some distance. Gun gains +1S, but loses a shot. Chassis gains -1 to hit baked in, and with hornet pulse lasers it now costs 90pts.
Priced to move, I can see three of these becoming a staple akin to warwalkers.
Liking the Scorpion now. 5++ is a great buff. Flat 12 shots is great too, allowing it to target either a big single target or things like bike and elite infantry squads equally well. A 200 point price cut isn't bad either!
Hornets get a 5 point cut and a native -1 to hit so still nice.
Wraithseers look an interesting, but pricey, alternative to wraithlords, tougher but less firepower and smite.
Looking at the video I'd say the focused beam of the shadow spectres is S6 -3 3 damage, so amazing anti infantry power at 24" range. That's great anti marine firepower. Squad size now 5-10 rather than 3-10, oddly. Spectres also staying at 1W suggests that Aspects are not getting a profile change.
I love the Scorpion, but I think it took a bit of a hit too. Looks like 5++ is only against shooting, and it lost Airborne on/off too. It can no longer access 4++ with CTM & VE ... so while the points dropped, so did its survivability.
Wraithseers look great to me. ... 1d3+3 is top tier damage, and with expert crafters is very reliable. On the way in the chap can jinx and such now, as well as smite. It will take smart play, but it's just the kind of unit that will fit well into the last bastion of CWE, expert crafter mech lists.
Wraithseer loosing acess to relics and traits sucks big time to me. Plus loss of 4 wounds... The -1 Ap is pretty pointless hes going to be shot at with AT (new fancy meltas...) is going to be ap -3 or better. Not sure if the smite/ runes of battle is worth the trade. Also D-cannon weaponry going to at least 4 damage is interesting. I wonder if they will FAQ weapon platforms to the new damage profile. Coz that would make them very interetsing.
The specters... Interesting. But T3 1W 3+ is just soo pathetic. With modifier cap it is paper thin. The offensive boost is decent.. Very decent. I might take them over reapers now due to mobility and better AP. Irylyth looks very interesting and hes bit of a beatstick with 3x flat Str8 -4 3dmg BS 2 dakka. Shame about not getting a warlord trait.. meh...
It looks like GW is determined not to allow eldar more than 4 attacks.. So stupid. Looks we will keep battlefocus.
Anyone else notice the shadow specters exarch didn't get a power??
Maybe it's an indication that we getting nerfed or that we will get a pool of generic exarch powers.
The scatchah knight...So being eqipped with a knight level of weapon but has the same profile as a Ruddy retributor or Any average imperial Multi melta !? Could be argued worse as its D6 shots.. Scattershield is still 5++ and still takes up a weapon arm slot.. Looks like the wraithknights will be sitting out yet another edition. Such a shame.
Think hornets are the real winners.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Are the spectres still elite? I cant tell.
So i have picked up 10 banshees but can't decide whether to do 1x10 or 2x5. The second option always seems better with the exception of fight interruption, which would just slaughter the second unit. What are your thoughts?
bullyboy wrote: So i have picked up 10 banshees but can't decide whether to do 1x10 or 2x5. The second option always seems better with the exception of fight interruption, which would just slaughter the second unit. What are your thoughts?
It depends on the unit's purpose.
Are you planning on using them as an important part of your battle plan, spearheading your assault? In that case you'll probably be casting psychic powers and using stratagems on them on a regular basis, so one large unit would be better than two smaller units since you'll get more for your investment.
Or are using them as a throw-away unit to disrupt the enemy? If so, then two small units would be better as they give you more flexibility and a second exarch.
I'm guessing you go expert crafters, right? If so I'd strongly recommend 2x5, with the exarch picking up an executioner and piercing strike. This turns her into a character hunter and AT in a pinch - only 2 attacks, but S7 -3 3D, with a reroll to hit and wound. That normally forces two pretty tasty saving throws on the unit of your choice. ymmv.
I'd probably recommend 2x5 units of Banshees as well using the exarch loadout grouchoben said. With Expert Crafters you can do a lot and Hunters of Ancient Relics wouldn't go amiss in the off chance you charge something next to an objective.
I am personally still not sure if I would run them in my current list, or very many other lists right now as damage 1 just isn't quite enough to mow marines down. I find the inherent deep strike of Striking Scorpions very powerful in achieving secondaries which is why I will still be taking them.
Good point on trait, haven't thought about that yet as this list is part of a new eldar army for me (not my normal wraith based one). Currently sitting an a serpent, jain zar, banshees, 2 falcons, 10 dire Avengers, some scorps, 3 vibros, 3 warwalkers, 3 vypers, plus other odds and ends. My goal is to go more aspect based to match an army I had years ago.
Argive wrote: Also D-cannon weaponry going to at least 4 damage is interesting. I wonder if they will FAQ weapon platforms to the new damage profile. Coz that would make them very interesting.
I would love this, how did you come to this conclusion though? It's the Ghostspear that changed to D3+3. The D-flail on the Warp Hunter did change from D6 damage to D3+3 but I don't see anything to suggest that the D-cannon is different.
Argive wrote: Also D-cannon weaponry going to at least 4 damage is interesting. I wonder if they will FAQ weapon platforms to the new damage profile. Coz that would make them very interesting.
I would love this, how did you come to this conclusion though? It's the Ghostspear that changed to D3+3. The D-flail on the Warp Hunter did change from D6 damage to D3+3 but I don't see anything to suggest that the D-cannon is different.
Hmm Youre right I think might have got it wrong. I was probably looking at the D-flair which seems to have same stats as D-cannon in its normal firing mode and I couldn't really see all that well on my phone. Also the ghost-spear going to same damage seems like a trend... Its just a hunch. But leaving D-Weapons at D6 would be more of travesty which even GW wouldn't do IMo.. but who knows.
After a lot of losses trying out infantry and Harlequin/Craftworld lists, I went back to pure mechanized Craftworld armies. I just accepted that I will give up Bring It Down. I played in a local event and 3 other pick up games. All games have been against Marines (surprise). So far, 4-2 with the two losses being quite close. I found I'm not getting Primary in the early rounds, but tend to get them later. The missions requiring holding 2 just to get 5 points have been most challenging. For Secondaries, Deploy Scramblers and Engage on All Fronts net me solid points. I've varied the third objective, but I've gotten pretty good results by taking the secondary that earns points by destroying more units than your opponent each turn.
War Walkers and Hornets (updated and older rules) work well and set up great fire lanes for Forewarning (Eradicators and Terminators are popular locally).
Locally, the meta is heavy with Marines and my list is a bit tailored to face them.
I found the -1 to hit becoming more common in games, and adjusted my list a bit to take advantage. If I am likely to be -1 to hit, then utilize CTM and Vectored Engines to then ensure some of my units are hard to hit. Creating multiple hard to hit/wound units has had some success. I tried Masters of Concealment, but found it very situational. I prefer the Masterful Shots and Expert Crafters combo as it will always be in play regardless of my opponent'sactions.
I've got a small event this upcoming weekend. Ive tracked my games so far in 9th and have gone 6 wins and 8 losses. The mechanized lists have fared much better of those games. While I dont think I will win overall, I believe I can provide quite challenging games. I think I can get to a solid 50% win ratio until an updated Craftworld codex is released.
Nice to see another person choosing Warp Spiders, 90 points for that kind of mobility is very hard to pass up and I rate that you've gone for web of deceit as well.
As an alternative to engage on all fronts, it may be worth having a look at Linebreaker as well. It might even be easier to max out than Engage in some situations.
Let me know how you find the foot farseer, I found the lack of mobility a challenge in my list, and the jetbike helped a lot in that regard.
The foot Farseer has worked fine. In a lot of games, it stays close to Hornets and possibly War Walkers for Forewarning. I've not found the Farseer to need more than move + advance. He also stays close to the Warlock Conclave for the potential Seer Council stratagem. Lists and playstyle definitely have an impact here, for sure
I'll look at Line Breaker. The challenge I've found In some games is that the deployment zones are fairly small and my opponent zones me out. Engage has proven easier for me to pull off over the course of the game.
I was wondering something. Among the new exarch abilities for dark reapers was a melee oriented one. Do you think that there's a chance that GW is going to give the reaper exarch the option to take a flail of skulls again? If not, then why would they bother with a melee option for a ranged unit?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I was wondering something. Among the new exarch abilities for dark reapers was a melee oriented one. Do you think that there's a chance that GW is going to give the reaper exarch the option to take a flail of skulls again? If not, then why would they bother with a melee option for a ranged unit?
Because rules people at GW are marine fanboys and they don't care about eldar?
Seriously though they had to give each exarch 6 powers so 1-2 are useful and the rest trash coz thats how they designed things..
Some people just want to do fun/funny games so it will suit them. Especialy with things like crusade play. Taking the most efficient choice is not always the most fun choice.
For example the fire dragon ones where the exarch gets burning fists!! How ridiculous is that ! You'll never take it to a tourney but if you decide to run msu fire dragons that wana go full Eldar-Fu? Why not see what happens haha.
I've been having some more games on TTS and thought I'd bring them up here. Nothing relevatory I'm afraid, I still can't get away from being it down! But one of the most important aspects of building your list, if possible, is to try and keep the possibility of scoring secondaries on your own terms built in to your army. Relying on your opponent to give you a secondary can leave you with some issues. So with my current list I've built in engage on all fronts, while we stand we fight and deploy scramblers. I must admit I haven't put too much resources into scramblers, just the avengers, but it's there if I need it and with the webway strat it's been ok but if I get a kill secondary option I'll often drop scramblers. But overall I'm winning more than losing, the list is still pretty tough for most armies to take down and still hits very hard.
That looks depressingly similar to what I was playing just before the UK locked down again. There really isn't very much wiggle room for designing eldar lists that can tangle with marines is there?
I was previously loving Falcons, but a few experiences with Eradicators made me look again. Wave serpents fare little better and eat more points. I'm intrigued to see what GW do with CWE for their 9e codex. Expressed as a ratio between number of units in roster and number of viable 9e competitive lists, I think they currently sit rock bottom.
It seems with the prevalence of eradicators shaping how we play games and build lists, is it worth dropping grav tanks entirely in favour of Vypers and War Walker spam?
It's not an idea I'm particularly keen on as I have always loved a mechanised force with said tanks but maybe is it time to rethink that and go with something kingheff is using? Or, do you just accept that you've got a bad match-up against said eradicators and build a mechanised list that can utilise cheap falcons and some wave serpents to protect squishier infantry?
Also, while I can't see myself ever building that kind of list in real life, it is a cool one and feels like it could be a fluffy Saim Hann list in some capacity.
I must admit that I do miss my falcons and wraithlords but it's not just eradicators, it's also the while we stand factor that lead me to drop the more expensive units. Because I set myself the target of having three characters as the "We stand" units it forced me to look at the cheaper end of the available choices.
I must admit that this is very much a me style list, I've been on the vypers as screen/mobility core of my army for over a year. Same with vibros as backfield firepower/deepstrike denial.
I'm sure other options can work but I like this style of solid backfield artillery and fast moving firepower, mech based to minimise small arms, style lists and I'm probably not trying out other stuff that could work just as well.
bullyboy wrote: So i have picked up 10 banshees but can't decide whether to do 1x10 or 2x5. The second option always seems better with the exception of fight interruption, which would just slaughter the second unit. What are your thoughts?
I’ve run banshees for a loooong time and run them as often as I can. Right now they’re more of a utility unit than an actual combat threat to anything more than cultists or guardsmen. I like 2x5 because you can get 2 executioners in there for pretty cheap which combos well with expert crafters. The main bonus of having one unit is it makes it easier to wrap your opponents unit but that’s still a more difficult maneuver in this edition. Stick to the 2x5 with executioners and really your choice of exarch power. I like the 4+ to deal d3 mortal wounds since units will try to fall back from you or do the piercing strike to push some damage 3 wounds on to them. Back them up with shining spears to do the real damage in close combat.
Argive wrote: honestly I hope a single one of our units gets more than 4 attacks.. The fact jain zar gets the same amount of attacks as a charging rhino is stupid..
This is one of my biggest frustrations with the rules as they sit, I know it’s not forever but it’s annoying for the time.
I can see aspect warriors going up to an effective 3 attacks between charging, wargear, or just a straight attribute bump for attacks to 3 since harlies are base 4 currently
Banshees are supposed to be efficient, if there was a way to up their weapons damage any more enervate might be worth considering, but right now it wouldn’t improve the output enough for a whole warlock power to be casted
With wraithseers taking runes of battle we might see more buffing spells.
You'll still probably smite 80% of the time but you'd never take enrevate on a warlock. With extra psychic slots i think i will sprinkle in some aditional buffs nit as clutch powes but to give a bump.
The main issue trouble is runes of battle being infantry/biker locked. But the debuffs might become more common.
Seeing the teaser they showed for Incubi in the DE codex announcement, I think there is some hope for aspect warriors getting equivalent buffs... hopefully
warmaster21 wrote: Seeing the teaser they showed for Incubi in the DE codex announcement, I think there is some hope for aspect warriors getting equivalent buffs... hopefully
I am not sure what to hope for here.
The Drukhari got more damage. And one more WS. Right?
I feel like most of our elites and weapons need more things that make them different from each other.
Scorpions. Better infiltrate and make them hitting harder. While banchees are faster and have more attacks.
The same with our heavy weapon choices. Right now they feel too similar. Make one with 6 shots. But ST 3 and -1 ap. or something. While a star cannon is 2 shots at st6 and -3 ap 2 dam. Or some such.
We should be able to have the ultimate weapon vs the chosen foe. But they shouldn't work against everyone.
The same with our troops.
Ok. Just hope they don't give us ws 2+ and call us done.
I agree in that I don't know what to hope for but BS 2+ avengers, reapers and dragons would be tasty.
I still think we'll gt D2 shuricannons and that'll be about it for the heavy weapon changes. Maybe fixed damage on the starcannons but that's it.
My hope is for battle focus on our vehicles and all the heavy weapons to become assault. That'll really lean in to mobility being our strong point IMHO.
. Custodes are a thing however, but against armies with a low model count, it's easy to play the objective game and win that way. Starcannons are generally the best 
I do think Banshees could be a shout when they get their power sword upgraded, as I did find their disruption to be quite useful in 8th edition, albeit countering overwatch a lot harder then.
(still S6 at least)
