God I hope they revisit relics and traits! They're so underwhelming and flavourless as they stand.
An interesting 'tell' from the Deathwatch codex was that DW get an ability to stop Eldar from messing with your BS, which strongly suggests we'll get a modified ability to stack negatives - Whacking a BS malus on something is a nice way to sidestep the new 'no more than -1 or +1 to hit' rule.
Final hope is to see guardians get a revamp, and the Avatar to be worth a damn.
I really hope this is the year Eldar finally get their big model range revamp.
Its hard to recommend anyone start an Eldar army with the model range the way it is.
Keen to see what Drukhari gets first before making any guesses on what we'll get. Seems to me like Eldar might be a release later in the year as we've had absolutely no indication of any kits in the pipeline.
Hoping for something better than a blanket -1 to hit. I think a ground up redesign is needed but we'll see.
warmaster21 wrote: Seeing the teaser they showed for Incubi in the DE codex announcement, I think there is some hope for aspect warriors getting equivalent buffs... hopefully
I am not sure what to hope for here.
The Drukhari got more damage. And one more WS. Right?
I feel like most of our elites and weapons need more things that make them different from each other.
Scorpions. Better infiltrate and make them hitting harder. While banchees are faster and have more attacks.
The same with our heavy weapon choices. Right now they feel too similar. Make one with 6 shots. But ST 3 and -1 ap. or something. While a star cannon is 2 shots at st6 and -3 ap 2 dam. Or some such.
We should be able to have the ultimate weapon vs the chosen foe. But they shouldn't work against everyone.
The same with our troops.
Ok. Just hope they don't give us ws 2+ and call us done.
They got +1 WS, +1 Strength on the weapon, and +1 damage. and they are still 4 plvl or whatever those things are called, so I dont expect much change in the way of points
grouchoben wrote: God I hope they revisit relics and traits! They're so underwhelming and flavourless as they stand.
An interesting 'tell' from the Deathwatch codex was that DW get an ability to stop Eldar from messing with your BS, which strongly suggests we'll get a modified ability to stack negatives - Whacking a BS malus on something is a nice way to sidestep the new 'no more than -1 or +1 to hit' rule.
Final hope is to see guardians get a revamp, and the Avatar to be worth a damn.
And a total Aspect revamp.
... And Phoenix Lords that aren't bad jokes.
You pointed out all of my main problems with the codex as we stand in 9th. Phoenix lords and aspect warriors have some fluffy rules but they aren’t strong anymore and don’t suit 9th very well
grouchoben wrote: God I hope they revisit relics and traits! They're so underwhelming and flavourless as they stand.
An interesting 'tell' from the Deathwatch codex was that DW get an ability to stop Eldar from messing with your BS, which strongly suggests we'll get a modified ability to stack negatives - Whacking a BS malus on something is a nice way to sidestep the new 'no more than -1 or +1 to hit' rule.
Final hope is to see guardians get a revamp, and the Avatar to be worth a damn.
And a total Aspect revamp.
... And Phoenix Lords that aren't bad jokes.
You pointed out all of my main problems with the codex as we stand in 9th
Wraithblades/lords need to be tougher as well. I am *not* looking forward to the idea we got from the seer that ignore AP -1 is somehow the equal of -1 damage. Would much rather see either the -1 damage or, if not, then -1 to wound or a 2+ armor save.
Wraithblades/lords need to be tougher as well. I am *not* looking forward to the idea we got from the seer that ignore AP -1 is somehow the equal of -1 damage. Would much rather see either the -1 damage or, if not, then -1 to wound or a 2+ armor save.
At the very least it should have been reduce rend by 1 to a minimum of 0. That way it's not irrelevant to all the AP-2 and AP-3 weaponry that is being thrown around like candy.
Wraithblades/lords need to be tougher as well. I am *not* looking forward to the idea we got from the seer that ignore AP -1 is somehow the equal of -1 damage. Would much rather see either the -1 damage or, if not, then -1 to wound or a 2+ armor save.
At the very least it should have been reduce rend by 1 to a minimum of 0. That way it's not irrelevant to all the AP-2 and AP-3 weaponry that is being thrown around like candy.
Yeah man ignoring the first pip of AP would be decent and have much wider application.
Most anti tank weaponry has ap -2 or better.
With his 5++ it kind of doesnt matter after -3 anyway so the ability is all around not great when compared with spiky and non spiky dreads. Hard not to be jealous when looking at dreads.....
I was trying out a list on Battlescribe when a strange thing occurred. I was looking at Hornets and they were showing as only having 2 scatter lasers and no other weapons or weapon options. Is this now the case due to the new Imperial Armour book or is it an error on the part of Battlescribe?
I think its BS being updated with imperial armour.
The wraithseer is still not showing up as heavy support so im sure the good people working behind the scenes are doing their bit but its just taking a while.
What do people think about sacrificing smite for witch strike and taking the psyker sepcicif 2nd trait on top of EC meaning you will never fail to cast it on a 4 ?
Argive wrote: I've been thinking about the wraithseer.
What do people think about sacrificing smite for witch strike and taking the psyker sepcicif 2nd trait on top of EC meaning you will never fail to cast it on a 4 ?
Probably not worth getting the psyker trait just for it, unless you have other things benefitting from it. +1 attacks probably works out more consistently useful (someone may have to math it out)
Argive wrote: I've been thinking about the wraithseer.
What do people think about sacrificing smite for witch strike and taking the psyker sepcicif 2nd trait on top of EC meaning you will never fail to cast it on a 4 ?
It could work, but it depends on the enemy. Generally speaking Witch Strike will produce more wounds than Smite, but you have to get into melee first and you have to be fighting something with lots of wounds in order for it to be worthwhile. Against Imperial Knights? Sure. Against Imperial Guard? Probably not.
Argive wrote: I've been thinking about the wraithseer.
What do people think about sacrificing smite for witch strike and taking the psyker sepcicif 2nd trait on top of EC meaning you will never fail to cast it on a 4 ?
Probably not worth getting the psyker trait just for it, unless you have other things benefitting from it. +1 attacks probably works out more consistently useful (someone may have to math it out)
You are still benefiting for all of your farseer/warlock powers so its not a total waste.
But with it being cast on a 4 I think I would just risk it.
The big downside is you have to be in combat and it can only be cast on one of the wraithseers. So if you have two only one will get it.
grouchoben wrote:
Final hope is to see guardians get a revamp, and the Avatar to be worth a damn.
And a total Aspect revamp.
... And Phoenix Lords that aren't bad jokes.
'
Be still my beating heart. I actually wondered if the Sigvald reveal for AoS was a plastic Avatar but the painting didn't match up well.
drakerocket wrote:Wraith knights being useable would be nice >.>
Wraithblades/lords need to be tougher as well. I am *not* looking forward to the idea we got from the seer that ignore AP -1 is somehow the equal of -1 damage. Would much rather see either the -1 damage or, if not, then -1 to wound or a 2+ armor save.
I thought that was all crusade based stuff ? Death company/ black rage doesn't really strike me as a separate faction in the same sense ynnari sort of is
I hope that the ynarri may get a standalone codex this edition with specific units from the three aeldari codexes to choose from. That seems a better way of doing it than the wierd fudgey/soup thing they are now.
kingheff wrote: I hope that the ynarri may get a standalone codex this edition with specific units from the three aeldari codexes to choose from. That seems a better way of doing it than the wierd fudgey/soup thing they are now.
If they do get a codex of their own, it would take a lot to improve the fluff to a point where I'd respect them as a faction in lore. They've written them into a corner I don't see them getting out of and may see them as a subfaction in the Craftworlds codex for years to come. If they do expand them, they'd need a big release to come to the same position as Harlies at least.
Don't get me wrong, I'd definitely put the ynarri at the back of the aeldari queue!
I think the current way of having them as an almost parasitical add on to the existing factions doesn't work.
kingheff wrote: I hope that the ynarri may get a standalone codex this edition with specific units from the three aeldari codexes to choose from. That seems a better way of doing it than the wierd fudgey/soup thing they are now.
If they do get a codex of their own, it would take a lot to improve the fluff to a point where I'd respect them as a faction in lore. They've written them into a corner I don't see them getting out of and may see them as a subfaction in the Craftworlds codex for years to come. If they do expand them, they'd need a big release to come to the same position as Harlies at least.
If you look at Ynnari they are a seed/hint Gav did in 2nd ed, then got 3 new models, so far a couple novels, and a couple WD articles? I'm not sure how to build a codex out of that. Granted I don't honestly know what a Death Watch codex has or looks like.
The issue for GW comes from how do they release or support their rules in 9th ed in a stand alone form that is tournament legal? I would guess the PA for Aeldari becomes not-for-matched play when both DE and CWE come out and if not then you've got a lack of Ynnari 9th ed related updates (actions, etc).
Argive wrote:Lets just hope they update classic CWE / DE before they do that
Wasn't Drukhari from the Preview Saturday? Pretty sure they are coming January no?
We know there is a codex. 100%
But as to the model?
There is a consensus on the rumour engine suggest lileth model.
BUT If I'm honest im sceptical personally. It could just as well be something for AOS/Warcry/Blodbowl if im honest. People really want it to be Lilith though...
Just wanted to share this RTT I just hit up. Only 8 players, but it was the "final" for the 40k community here. Had rankings throughout the year, and invites were only sent to the top players local players. Pretty neat. I decided to bring my pure ynnari list, because honestly they're better than my marines right now it feels like.
Here's the list.
Spoiler:
Reborn Aeldari Patrol
1 The Visarch
1 The Yncarne - Ancestor's Grace, Unbind Souls
5 Dire Avengers
10 Howling Banchees Exarch - Power sword & Shuriken Pistol
10 Howling Banchees Exarch - Power sword & Shuriken Pistol
Reborn Harlequin Patrol
1 Yvraine - Shield of Ynnead, Gaze of Ynnead
1 Troupe Master - Warlord, Hungering Blade, Walker of many paths
5 Troupe - Harlequin Kisses
5 Skyweavers - Zepher Glave, Haywire cannons
5 Skyweavers - Zepher Glave, Haywire cannons (one star bola for points)
I ended up 2-1 taking second place. First game was against Ultramarines. Bunch of aggressors and 3 Sicaran tanks supported by Bobby G and Tiggy. Won the roll off, went first. He redeployed back out of charge range, which ended up letting me set up major field advantage. Survived his shooting pretty well, then cleared half his army T2. Banchees lead the charge, hacked through the aggressors like they were made of paper. Won that one pretty decisively 94-30.
Game 2 was rough. Half mirror match against Soaring spite harlequins. Terrain was player set up, and was horribly imbalanced, and I wasn't careful with my deployment. 2/3rds of my Army gone T1. So I clawed for a few secondary points for the rest of the game. Yvraine killed herself from a double perils T1... Though Amusingly the Visarch survived to t5 by healing off enemy models dying around him. Devastating loss 94-27
Game 3. FSE Tau. He did some work on my Wave Serpents with the commanders, but I kept enough alive to clear out most of his screen and shut down a lot of his shooting. A big play was when the Yncarne was in front of all his commanders along, with some bikers behind them. He was planning to shoot the Yncarne, but got out of order and finished a squad of banchees letting s/he get out of dodge. Then he killed the bikers as a consolation prize... letting the Yncarne pop back up and intervene into his commanders, killing one and silencing two others with a consolidation move. Solid win 83-53
Overall, I'm happy with everything other than my game 2 deployment. I love the army. I really have to vouch for the Banchees, they tear through marines with the Ynnari buffs. Denying overwatch is still relevant, and boy can it be devastating. The ultramarine and Tau players told me they were OPlol. The Yncarne was a boss as always. The Visarch needs more respect, he does a lot of heavy lifting for an 85pt character. And of course bikers are great.
I'm sure a pure Harlequin army would be better, but there's a nice flow to the Ynnari that I perfer.
Overall, I'm happy with everything other than my game 2 deployment. I love the army. I really have to vouch for the Banchees, they tear through marines with the Ynnari buffs. Denying overwatch is still relevant, and boy can it be devastating. The ultramarine and Tau players told me they were OPlol. The Yncarne was a boss as always. The Visarch needs more respect, he does a lot of heavy lifting for an 85pt character. And of course bikers are great.
I'm sure a pure Harlequin army would be better, but there's a nice flow to the Ynnari that I perfer.
What bonuses do you give your banshees to make them so successful? Does the fight first ability really make them that good? What exarch power were you bringing?
Also congrats on doing so well in the tourney! It warms my soul seeing twenty banshees screaming down the field with decent success
I don't get it, help me out here! 10 banshees (160pts) do 8.1 damage to aggressors, assuming WS2 and reroll wounds. That's not bad but not very good either, considering it's setup dependent (cast or 2cp). 160pts of frozen stars do way more, for example.
I like Banshees. Play them myself, and have taken 3x5 to a couple of tournaments in 8e. Help me to understand why you rate them so highly and I will be very thankful!
What bonuses do you give your banshees to make them so successful? Does the fight first ability really make them that good? What exarch power were you bringing?
Also congrats on doing so well in the tourney! It warms my soul seeing twenty banshees screaming down the field with decent success
Reroll 1s from the Visarch makes a big difference when you're hitting on 2s from Ynnari, and reroll all wounds from the spell or the strat is pretty key for them do do damage. Fight first is actually pretty nice. Your last question saddens me as Ynnari units are arbitrarily prohibited from having different exarch powers, though I'd probably stick with war shout in most cases. It keeps them around in melee long enough for the fight first to matter.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: I don't get it, help me out here! 10 banshees (160pts) do 8.1 damage to aggressors, assuming WS2 and reroll wounds. That's not bad but not very good either, considering it's setup dependent (cast or 2cp). 160pts of frozen stars do way more, for example.
I like Banshees. Play them myself, and have taken 3x5 to a couple of tournaments in 8e. Help me to understand why you rate them so highly and I will be very thankful!
They're 150 pts, no upgrades for the exarch.
It's not exactly a fair comparison. First off, I'm not posting this in Harlequins. They are decidedly the better army, and all their units are under costed when compared to their craftworld equivalents. I don't think that will last forever though, so it I don't think we need to swap over completely.
Second, they perform a different role. The bonus to their charge range is huge, it makes a bigger difference than you'd think. I have never failed a charge with them. The overwatch stopping is great too. The death jester can stop one unit, but banchees stop everything they can touch. Often I have the squad tap into multiple units, and my one Troupe and characters file in after them unmolested. With expensive fragile melee units it makes a big difference. Also still being able to shoot their pistols with battle focus, unlike harlequins adds some extra utility with clearing light screening units and chipping damage.
Well done on the tournament result, it seems like you had some solid matches played to net you the win.
I'm sorry, but I don't see how they can be amazing, but maybe I'm in the same boat as grouchoben here and not getting what makes them good. Especially now that you've mentioned not even giving the Exarch an upgrade weapon like the executioner. The comparison to frozen stars is a valid one as they can be souped together and with that option, I'd never run banshees.
They're literally a tarpit unit, and not a very good one now that you have to pay for overwatch in 9th ed. Even with Str-4 power weapons, they absolutely do not tear through marines unless they're mini-marines.
Thanks footfoe! Yeah I get you re: the unfair comparison. But it's not reallllly, as the sticker price is 2cp to soup in some frozen stars, and we're not exatcly spoilt with must-use stratagems, so 9-10cp with autarch regen seems like plenty.
I think I even prefer Wyches as they leverage hard against some infantry units that really don't want to be in CC, and they're tougher and troops too. Again, I get that they're not a CWE unit but they are a unit that a CWE army has easy access to, so the line is pretty weak between these units. If I'm running a melee eldar army (and who doesn't want to?) then I weigh all these units equally.
At the end of 8e I went 4-1 with a list that had 15 banshees, 27 wyches, Drazhar and the Yncarne in, it was a lot of fun. With their rough points hike and their loss of functionality (with the minimisation of overwatch) in an edition that prioritises take and hold, I just don't see em working very well until they get a significant rewrite, as much as it pains me to say it...If I was running that list today it would be wych batallion and a gunny CWE spearhead...
It's not exactly a fair comparison. First off, I'm not posting this in Harlequins. They are decidedly the better army, and all their units are under costed when compared to their craftworld equivalents. I don't think that will last forever though, so it I don't think we need to swap over completely.
Second, they perform a different role. The bonus to their charge range is huge, it makes a bigger difference than you'd think. I have never failed a charge with them. The overwatch stopping is great too.
Did you take hunters of the ancient relics? I assume with Banshees that's a good choice. I'm a huge fan of Banshees and have lots (maybe,.. 20-25? I would like to wish 30,..). Just wondering actually if you are taking any custom craftworld traits or is this Ynnari strait across the board?
I'm also going to guess you keep them in the WSs as counter charges and use their huge charge bonus mid field rather than alpha-strike?
Its pure Ynnari so no custom traits. Using a custom craftworld with relics and savage blades with frozen stars for the Harlequins might be better. I might try that, but I like the Ynnari rules a lot.
footfoe wrote: Its pure Ynnari so no custom traits. Using a custom craftworld with relics and savage blades with frozen stars for the Harlequins might be better. I might try that, but I like the Ynnari rules a lot.
Fair enough, I'm a long time fan of Banshees and aspects in general so I love that you're representing and giving them some life.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Well done on the tournament result, it seems like you had some solid matches played to net you the win.
I'm sorry, but I don't see how they can be amazing, but maybe I'm in the same boat as grouchoben here and not getting what makes them good. Especially now that you've mentioned not even giving the Exarch an upgrade weapon like the executioner. The comparison to frozen stars is a valid one as they can be souped together and with that option, I'd never run banshees.
They're literally a tarpit unit, and not a very good one now that you have to pay for overwatch in 9th ed. Even with Str-4 power weapons, they absolutely do not tear through marines unless they're mini-marines.
Footfoe, do you mind explaining how you play them etc? Not discrediting your win but I just don't see them as a viable option without an explanation for what makes them good as Ynnari.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Well done on the tournament result, it seems like you had some solid matches played to net you the win.
I'm sorry, but I don't see how they can be amazing, but maybe I'm in the same boat as grouchoben here and not getting what makes them good. Especially now that you've mentioned not even giving the Exarch an upgrade weapon like the executioner. The comparison to frozen stars is a valid one as they can be souped together and with that option, I'd never run banshees.
They're literally a tarpit unit, and not a very good one now that you have to pay for overwatch in 9th ed. Even with Str-4 power weapons, they absolutely do not tear through marines unless they're mini-marines.
Footfoe, do you mind explaining how you play them etc? Not discrediting your win but I just don't see them as a viable option without an explanation for what makes them good as Ynnari.
I think its the combination of fairly achievable 2+ hit with reroll 1's (via autarch etc) and doom strat with little investment or set up and potential acess to the Yncarne who is himself beast.
From a CWE perspective you'd have to give up a jinx/protect to cast empower and also be in range.
I think banshees can work well as a toolbox type unit more than as an out and out damage dealer.
Their speed and overwatch denying capabilities mean they can always be useful even though their damage output is a bit lacking.
Hi, guys. Just wanted to share some personal anecdotal experiences with some of our less popular units. Most of my games are in a relatively casual environment, so take all this with a few shakes of salt.
BANSHEES
I'm an Iybraesil player, so I try to use banshees whenever I feel I can get away with it. I've mainly been using a squad of 5 with an executioner exarch. The exarch pays an extra CP to keep the -1 to hit and also takes Disarming Strike. The unit usually rides in a a serpent with a small squad of avengers with shimmer shield + battle fortune + defend. In casual games, I take Hunters of Ancient Relics as one of my craftworld traits.
The banshees themselves are a flexible temporary tarpit unit that I can launch across the table (usually on turn 2). They'll die quickly to units with a decent volume of attacks, but it only takes a little luck for them to be surprisingly durable against units that get a lot of their damage output from a small number of expensive attacks. Putting disarming strike on, for instance, a captain or brood lord means that the unit will generally remain alive with a couple wounds remaining, thus keeping whatever I charged from shooting (and maybe tying it up for a turn).
If I send the banshees after the same target as the avengers (usually an enemy unit standing on an objective), my opponent is torn between swinging against two different units that are at -1 to hit. If they don't focus on the banshees, I retain some offense in the subsequent player turn. If they don't focus on the avengers, I have obsec models that might be stealing an objective for me. Melee weapon sergeants hate swinging into 4+ invul avenger exarchs after having their attacks reduced by a banshee exarch.
All that said, banshee offense still isn't quite there. S4 power swords help a lot. Hunters of Ancient Relics help a lot. But A3 S4 banshees still struggle to put much of a dent in 2W marines. They do, however, hit T3 targets pretty hard now.
STRIKING SCORPIONS
My ability to make these guys work continues to diminish over time. At two attacks, they completely fail at being the melee horde clearers I once used them as. The scorpion's claw, while still a decent investment, just isn't a reliable source of damage; even with Expert Crafters. My best luck with them this edition has been with a small squad with the Stalker (-1 to being hit while in cover) power serving as relatively cheap objective holders and screens. I want to like the 5+ mandiblaster power; it's cute when you manage do do a bunch of mortal wounds, but mortal wounds are most efficient against expensive models that the scorpions tend to not pair against very well. Anyone finding a better way to use these guys?
FIRE DRAGONS
These guys really weren't all that worth it last edition. In the past, a suicide meltagun unit could be worth it because they could reliably nuke an expensive vehicle (or several lighter ones) during the single shooting phase they participated in before dying. Now, 5 dragons struggle to reliably kill a rhino in one turn let alone something more durable.
That said, I think they might actually be pretty decent at the moment. Multi-wound (and 3 wound) marines being hot in the meta means that dragons struggling to find a vehicle to roast can probably find a reasonably expensive squad of marines to hurt.
Also, while the unit is expensive, taking a big squad of dragons gives you enough offense to kill some of the bigger vehicles in the game (like repulsors). In 8th edition, there were enough screens running around that I struggled to deliver dragons into a good position. But in 9th, the webway strat might get the dragons where they need to be to nuke a big, critical target.
I really want to like the dragon's bite for large squads (as it lets us continue to do damage after we get charged), but banking on our opponent's to fail to kill us in both shooting and melee has proven kind of situational for me. I have, however, found that the Tank Killer exarch power (reroll a damage die) is pretty decent coming out o the webway. Especially if I"m running Expert Crafters.
Dragons are sitll a bit awkward. They're a short-ranged unit with no escape plan and limited defenses. Their high points cost makes you want to point them at your opponent's expensive units, but they're only killy enough to kill something like a land raider (or seriously harm a knight) if you take a larger, even more expensive squad. And they're easy to compare unfavorably to eradicators - a 3 man squad of which has basically the same offense while also being far more durable. But I feel like you can make dragons work in the current meta.
Also, am I crazy or are dark reapers with masterful shots seriously good in the marine-heavy meta?
I agree with your assessment of these sub-par units in our trash tier codex. It feels REALLY bad to compare any of our units to space marine units because of the glaring difference in effectiveness for point cost.
To get any real damage out of units like fire dragons and dark reapers they need to be MSU or one big squad. MSU really cuts down on the damage out put vs. some units where you need full re-roll to hit and wound, but at the same time bringing big units leaves them extremely vulnerable to any ranged firepower or fast assault units.
I tried bringing a big squad of fire dragons but they don't do well against armies that don't have a big 300pt+ target for them to suicide against. Reapers seem interesting for a large squad but any indirect fire weapons or targeted mortal wound powers are going to rip them apart quickly as they have no invuln and only 1wound each. The point cost trade off seems really crappy against gravis/primaris marines too. Like even if you do kill 5 intercessors or 3 eradicators with 5 dark reapers (which isn't that probably to happen) the intercessors and eradicators are still cheaper than the dark reapers by at least 40-60 points AND that same squad of intercessors can kill your dark reapers in one shot. We're at that fox news level of fair and balanced along with imperial guard (and even guard can just bring a horde to score some points)
Eldar are just in a gak spot, its almost depressing trying to make lists right now
I agree with your assessment of these sub-par units in our trash tier codex. It feels REALLY bad to compare any of our units to space marine units because of the glaring difference in effectiveness for point cost.
To get any real damage out of units like fire dragons and dark reapers they need to be MSU or one big squad. MSU really cuts down on the damage out put vs. some units where you need full re-roll to hit and wound, but at the same time bringing big units leaves them extremely vulnerable to any ranged firepower or fast assault units.
I tried bringing a big squad of fire dragons but they don't do well against armies that don't have a big 300pt+ target for them to suicide against. Reapers seem interesting for a large squad but any indirect fire weapons or targeted mortal wound powers are going to rip them apart quickly as they have no invuln and only 1wound each. The point cost trade off seems really crappy against gravis/primaris marines too. Like even if you do kill 5 intercessors or 3 eradicators with 5 dark reapers (which isn't that probably to happen) the intercessors and eradicators are still cheaper than the dark reapers by at least 40-60 points AND that same squad of intercessors can kill your dark reapers in one shot. We're at that fox news level of fair and balanced along with imperial guard (and even guard can just bring a horde to score some points)
Eldar are just in a gak spot, its almost depressing trying to make lists right now
Think thats bad, go play Tau... go second with a "good" list, you lose, even against pure chaos space marines. Really, everyone is just bad against marines, but most everyone is good against anything else.
Drukhari, Harlequins and Orks all have game at the moment, albeit with limited list builds. Sisters have a case to be the top army at the moment and have a great success rate, hampered a little by how hard it's been to actually buy an army's worth of them.
Daemons are the surprise winners of 9e.
Tau and CWE are propping up the bottom of the tables, I think they have 1 top-4 finish between them in 9e GTs.
Think thats bad, go play Tau... go second with a "good" list, you lose, even against pure chaos space marines. Really, everyone is just bad against marines, but most everyone is good against anything else.
I wasn't really trying to draw comparisons to marines, but I do feel that a couple of the units I mentioned (dragons and scorpions) hold up about equally as well against most opponents. My scorpions bounce off of marines, but they also don't do much against anything else. 2 Attacks at AP0 only goes so far even against something like a fire warrior.
Weirdly enough, fire dragons might actually do better against marines than against most armies. Sure, they compare poorly to eradicators, but all these multi-wound marines make weirdly okay (not great) targets for them. Like, I'd rather nuke a repulsor with a squad of dragons, but I won't be disappointed if I "only" wipe out some sort of grav-armored unit instead. Also, most marine vehicles don't have invuln saves. Compare that to shooting them at tau who will push a bunch of their damage onto drones, 'crons that have invul saves on a bunch of their more expensive targets now, or even drukhari whose vehicles have invulns and usually aren't that expensive to begin with.
Which isn't to say that tau and craftworlders couldn't stand to get a bit of a boost.
Banshees definitely do look better against a lot of non-marine armies than they used to though. They're pretty happy charging into fire warriors, sisters, etc. now. And when you send them to tarpit a shooty unit in the backfield, you might even be able to bank on them eventually winning the fight now. So that's nice.
kingheff wrote: I've been having some more games on TTS and thought I'd bring them up here. Nothing relevatory I'm afraid, I still can't get away from being it down! But one of the most important aspects of building your list, if possible, is to try and keep the possibility of scoring secondaries on your own terms built in to your army. Relying on your opponent to give you a secondary can leave you with some issues. So with my current list I've built in engage on all fronts, while we stand we fight and deploy scramblers. I must admit I haven't put too much resources into scramblers, just the avengers, but it's there if I need it and with the webway strat it's been ok but if I get a kill secondary option I'll often drop scramblers. But overall I'm winning more than losing, the list is still pretty tough for most armies to take down and still hits very hard.
Sorry for reengaging an older entry. How do you rate 2 x 3 Vibro Cannons? I've used 1 x 3 in the past and felt they were 'ok' for the points, but no clear indicator to include a second unit. Can you help shed some light on the choice?
I'm also curious how vibro cannons are performing. I never felt like they had enough AP to deal with the targets they want to shoot at. Even when they were a hot unit to take they never really fit my playstyle so I wonder what other dar players think makes them so useful.
Regarding Vibros I still find them useful because of the backfield screening they provide as much as their firepower.
Expert crafters still allows their shooting to be nice and efficient, the movement debuff is also useful on things like bikers and transports. They're not super killy but they chip in every battle.
Nine is better for screening but six can still spread out nicely to prevent deepstriking, combined with the speed and manouvrability of the rest of the force I can zone out big swathes of the board.
I haven't had a game for a while but I'm hoping to get a few games whilst enjoying my christmas holiday so I'll be keen to see how it holds up now.
Chipping some extra damage is something I found useful; hold off on firing with them until last (almost last). Only running three and with coherency did not feel like they blocked much out against reinforcements, but can see how 6-9 would help.
Support weapon batteries are pretty good in 9th edition. Because they are vehicles they can move and fire without penalty, so they can easily spread out after deployment. However, they also hemorrhage points for secondary objectives, but there's not much that can be done about that.
D-cannon have benefitted even more than vibro cannon. The smaller battlefields and the increase in LOS-blocking terrain has made it easier for them to stay safe and increased their utility, as they can hit almost everything on the field after scooting up 6". LOS-blocking is both good and bad for vibro cannon: now they can hide until they need to shoot, but it can be more difficult for several of them to draw a bead on the same target.
Saber wrote: Support weapon batteries are pretty good in 9th edition. Because they are vehicles they can move and fire without penalty, so they can easily spread out after deployment. However, they also hemorrhage points for secondary objectives, but there's not much that can be done about that.
D-cannon have benefitted even more than vibro cannon. The smaller battlefields and the increase in LOS-blocking terrain has made it easier for them to stay safe and increased their utility, as they can hit almost everything on the field after scooting up 6". LOS-blocking is both good and bad for vibro cannon: now they can hide until they need to shoot, but it can be more difficult for several of them to draw a bead on the same target.
I had to reread the codex entry after your post. All this time I thought they had to stay within 6" the entire time. I just learned it is just at deployment, haha. I wonder how that will change in my future games.
Sarigar wrote: I had to reread the codex entry after your post. All this time I thought they had to stay within 6" the entire time. I just learned it is just at deployment, haha. I wonder how that will change in my future games.
I make those kinds of mistakes all the time, especially now that the rules change all the time. I try to make a point of reading the rulebook, codex, or errata once a month at bedtime, just to keep all the details fresh. This was a lot easier back in 6th and 7th when I was playing more often, often in tournaments, when my opponents could increase my knowledge. Nowadays I play a couple times a month on average and mostly against more casual players who, while they're fine opponents, don't have the incentive to know the rules inside and out.
The way they can spread out after deployment is the main reason I take them. Plus it helps with their survivability, being single five wound models makes them difficult to take out efficiently with things like eradicators or charging blade guard.
I'm interested in the d cannons but with the slow movement I'm not sure if they're what I want, I'd take warwalkers with twin star cannons over them for the same points. At 45 pts vibros and the longer range just look like the better option.
kingheff wrote: The way they can spread out after deployment is the main reason I take them. Plus it helps with their survivability, being single five wound models makes them difficult to take out efficiently with things like eradicators or charging blade guard.
I'm interested in the d cannons but with the slow movement I'm not sure if they're what I want, I'd take warwalkers with twin star cannons over them for the same points. At 45 pts vibros and the longer range just look like the better option.
I was missing the ability for them to spread out which makes a lot more sense now. I've played 1x3 Vibro Cannons and always kept them within 6", which felt like they would get bunched up a bit. I'm going to try them again but actually play them correctly and see how they perform.
I had received complaints from some players about me tailoring my army to face Marines. Ironically, nearly everyone I play against, even in tourneys are Marine lists. However, I relented and adjusted my list. I got to play today against Marines (surprise). Well, the massed adjustment to my list left me with trying to kill units with S4, 1D weapons. During the game, I watched 2 Aggessors and 1 Eradicator brought back from the grave and a total of four more wounds negated by a lone Apothecary.
After suffering a significant loss, I'm going right back to at least what provides a tactical and challenging game. It will be a skew list as the codex is a very early 8th edition codex and Marines are on their third codex release which has them dialed for 9th edition. A bit of a rant, but until a new Craftworld codex is released, I'll be running massed vehicles, Starcannons, and as much other multi damage weapons as I can muster.
Sarigar wrote: I had received complaints from some players about me tailoring my army to face Marines. Ironically, nearly everyone I play against, even in tourneys are Marine lists. However, I relented and adjusted my list. I got to play today against Marines (surprise). Well, the massed adjustment to my list left me with trying to kill units with S4, 1D weapons. During the game, I watched 2 Aggessors and 1 Eradicator brought back from the grave and a total of four more wounds negated by a lone Apothecary.
After suffering a significant loss, I'm going right back to at least what provides a tactical and challenging game. It will be a skew list as the codex is a very early 8th edition codex and Marines are on their third codex release which has them dialed for 9th edition. A bit of a rant, but until a new Craftworld codex is released, I'll be running massed vehicles, Starcannons, and as much other multi damage weapons as I can muster.
I agree 100%. Play soft only when you already have the best army in the current meta.
Sarigar wrote: I had received complaints from some players about me tailoring my army to face Marines. Ironically, nearly everyone I play against, even in tourneys are Marine lists. However, I relented and adjusted my list. I got to play today against Marines (surprise). Well, the massed adjustment to my list left me with trying to kill units with S4, 1D weapons. During the game, I watched 2 Aggessors and 1 Eradicator brought back from the grave and a total of four more wounds negated by a lone Apothecary.
After suffering a significant loss, I'm going right back to at least what provides a tactical and challenging game. It will be a skew list as the codex is a very early 8th edition codex and Marines are on their third codex release which has them dialed for 9th edition. A bit of a rant, but until a new Craftworld codex is released, I'll be running massed vehicles, Starcannons, and as much other multi damage weapons as I can muster.
Tell them it must be nice to have an army that's necessary/worth skewing against as opposed to an army that just dies nice and efficiently regardless of the opposition!
I currently struggle as well with CW. I feel like all our mechanics are rusted and it's hard to compete with those all-troops armies like necrons.
I recently incorporated lots of FW units in my liste, along with 2 blobs of shining and it worked well: lynx and wraithseer fits a lot in the counter-meta in my opinion. The flat 3 dmgPA-3 from the lynx fits so well with expert crafters and is suited to crush gravis.
What do you think about FW to save our craftworlds?
I've thought about using a wraithseer with a d cannon to sit behind cover providing indirect fire, psychic support and counter charge threat. 170 pts is definitely on the pricey side but he can output a lot of damage in three phases or buff/debuff.
Pulse lasers with the flat 3 damage are always nice, wherever you can get them.
Pulse Lasers are quite nice. I've got a Lynx on the way just to try. It is pointed aggressively. It makes me wonder why the Hemlock costs as much as a Lynx.
The Hornets, while good, do not hit as hard as before and I'm on the fence whether they are worth the points (I am referring to using Hornet Pulse Lasers). S7 is situational and 2D is solid. The -2 AP is a challenge against Marine armies. When using, be sure to prioritize 2W Marines before going after 3W Marines for efficiency.
I've not tried the updated Wraithseer, though I do have one. I've toyed with the idea of running 3 x Wraithlords and 3 x Wraithseers with a Warlock as an Ynarri detachment. Get the Warlock killed immediately and pay the CP to give the Wraith models Strength fro Death.
The other FW units did not appeal to me, but open if others have any ideas.
Sarigar, your friends have some cheek! What they call tailoring is the last few units that funtion well in the 9e meta. Taking things outside that small list is playing with a severe disadvantage. Tell them to go swivel!
kingheff wrote: The way they can spread out after deployment is the main reason I take them. Plus it helps with their survivability, being single five wound models makes them difficult to take out efficiently with things like eradicators or charging blade guard.
I'm interested in the d cannons but with the slow movement I'm not sure if they're what I want, I'd take warwalkers with twin star cannons over them for the same points. At 45 pts vibros and the longer range just look like the better option.
D-Cannon are great. They're fairly survivable as it's easy for them to hide out of LOS, and you can give them a 4+ invulnerable save in a pinch. Some things kill them quickly, but most opponents ignore them -- for the first few games, at least!
They also hit extremely hard; a battery of them concentrating on the same target can take it down quick. Generally speaking, the more guns you have that ignore LOS, the better.
Eltharion wrote: What do you think about FW to save our craftworlds?
Out of the new Forgeworld units I've used:
Shadow Spectres are very good, so long as you can avoid high AP, high ROF fire. With the cover bonus they're fairly resistant to small arms fire, but against -2 or -3 Space Marine Guns they fold quick. Their guns are perfect for killing pretty much any kind of infantry -- point and shoot, and position to reduce incoming fire.
Hornets are merely okay. Their new pulse lasers are kind of lame, as they're adequate against everything and good against nothing. Hornets remain fairly tough, and are more difficult to kill than our other gun platforms. Hornets, War Walkers, and Vypers all seem equally good to me.
Warp Hunters still kick like a mule, but the new 24" range stinks. Take them if you're doing a city fight with tons of LOS-blocking terrain, or if you're playing an aggressive army that can shield the Warp Hunters when they zoom into position. The auto-hit, 3-shot, 12"-range version is perfect for wiping out small squads of Marines.
Wraithseers are overpriced. Losing the Character keyword removes all of their funky tricks. They're not bad and the d-cannon is still a good gun, so I don't regret playing with my Wraithseer. However, don't expect anything special from them.
l0k1 wrote: Any helpful tips for a new pure Craftworlds player?
pick a few units you like until a new codex drops. Right now, our best units (war walkers, vypers, falcons) are somewhat our downfall, too, giving up heaps of BP on secondaries. could also be those units get utterly gimped with a new book. so go with what you like is the best bet for now, as you'll at least enjoy building and painting the models.
l0k1 wrote: Any helpful tips for a new pure Craftworlds player?
pick a few units you like until a new codex drops. Right now, our best units (war walkers, vypers, falcons) are somewhat our downfall, too, giving up heaps of BP on secondaries. could also be those units get utterly gimped with a new book. so go with what you like is the best bet for now, as you'll at least enjoy building and painting the models.
Concur. Currently, my lists are heavily skewed towards vehicles just to make it somewhat playable.
I also agree with the above. I've agonised long over army lists to not haemorrhage secondaries but all I'm doing is handicapping myself to an almost ridiculous degree.
Come to think of it, characters are propably the best all round investment. A Farseer and Spiritseer or Warlock make it pretty much into any lists. Other than that, see above ^^
Thats kinda the feel I was getting reading through the last few pages. I just have to make the hard decisions on what to fit in and what strategy to go with .
Cpt. Icanus wrote: Come to think of it, characters are propably the best all round investment. A Farseer and Spiritseer or Warlock make it pretty much into any lists. Other than that, see above ^^
Yeah Farseers and a warlock or two have always held a place in Eldar lists since I started playing in 3rd edition. Another unit I would say has almost always had a place is the Wave Serpent. Don’t remember an edition when at least one or two serpents are a bad addition to a list. Obviously this could change with the new codex but thus far they’ve always been at least decent.
Going for an autarch, farseer and warlock on bike seems a good place to start, along with a spiritseer for flexibility.
I'd probably go for the start collecting set and some magnets for the wraiths and walkers which gets you a foot farseer too. Whether they transition well to the new codex is up in the air but you do get a lot of stuff for not a lot of money.
kingheff wrote: Going for an autarch, farseer and warlock on bike seems a good place to start, along with a spiritseer for flexibility.
I'd probably go for the start collecting set and some magnets for the wraiths and walkers which gets you a foot farseer too. Whether they transition well to the new codex is up in the air but you do get a lot of stuff for not a lot of money.
I picked up a sizeable army back in 7th, and picked up another large army recently. I've just never put the army on the table, but I'm looking to change that . At this point the only things I can't field at least 1 unit of are Striking Scorpions, foot Autarchs, Wind riders, Falcons, and FW units I think
kingheff wrote: Going for an autarch, farseer and warlock on bike seems a good place to start, along with a spiritseer for flexibility.
I'd probably go for the start collecting set and some magnets for the wraiths and walkers which gets you a foot farseer too. Whether they transition well to the new codex is up in the air but you do get a lot of stuff for not a lot of money.
I picked up a sizeable army back in 7th, and picked up another large army recently. I've just never put the army on the table, but I'm looking to change that . At this point the only things I can't field at least 1 unit of are Striking Scorpions, foot Autarchs, Wind riders, Falcons, and FW units I think
Ah, that's a bit different then!
Vehicles and psykers are our strengths at the moment, most of our infantry is more of a weakness unfortunately, especially with how 9th works.
The way I've had most success, admittedly on TTS, is by running nine vypers as my screen/board control elements, six support weapons and six war walkers for backfield firepower and two squads of shining spears for counter charge.
I know I'm going to give up bring em down but I can't find a way to build anything decent without relying on vehicles.
From what I've been reading mech is the way to go to the moment. I'm trying to figure out a list running MSU squads of Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents as a base. Trying to figure out how many Farseers/Warlocks I should be running, and if they should be on bikes is my current problem other than squeezing in points.
This is the current 1500pts I've been tinkering with
3 x 5 Dire Avengers 210pts
Exarch 2x Avenger Catapult
Exarch Power - Bladestorm
3 Wave Serpents 480pts
Twin Starcannons
5 Warp Spiders 90pts
Exarch Power - Web of Deceit
5 Shining Spears 175pts
Exarch Power - Withdraw
5 Dark Reapers 175pts
3 War Walkers 165pts
2 Starcannons
I'm thinking of focusing on Deploy Scramblers, Engage On All Fronts, and Thin Their Ranks? I'll use the Warp Spiders to deploy scramblers in the enemy deployment zone and bounce out with Web of Deceit. Any thoughts and what I should do to bump it to 2k?
l0k1 wrote: From what I've been reading mech is the way to go to the moment. I'm trying to figure out a list running MSU squads of Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents as a base. Trying to figure out how many Farseers/Warlocks I should be running, and if they should be on bikes is my current problem other than squeezing in points.
This is the current 1500pts I've been tinkering with
3 x 5 Dire Avengers 210pts
Exarch 2x Avenger Catapult
Exarch Power - Bladestorm
3 Wave Serpents 480pts
Twin Starcannons
5 Warp Spiders 90pts
Exarch Power - Web of Deceit
5 Shining Spears 175pts
Exarch Power - Withdraw
5 Dark Reapers 175pts
3 War Walkers 165pts
2 Starcannons
I'm thinking of focusing on Deploy Scramblers, Engage On All Fronts, and Thin Their Ranks? I'll use the Warp Spiders to deploy scramblers in the enemy deployment zone and bounce out with Web of Deceit. Any thoughts and what I should do to bump it to 2k?
My issue with this idea is that Dire Avengers are just not very good (though our best troop). If you are going to run a battalion you should be taking 3 HQs and probably making use of extra heavy support slot you have over a patrol and if not dropping down to a patrol imo.
If you are taking Dire Avengers Battle fortune is the only way to go, bladestorm gives you a very very minor damage output buff, but damage output is not the primary focus for DA. What battle fortune does is give you a 2 wound 4++ which if you assign wounds correctly gives a surprisingly good survivability boost to the squad, and you want DA to be surviving not dishing out what I think averages out to half an unsaved wound against primaris.
Following on from that point I would consider the extra avenger catapult on the Exarch as a secondary upgrade (same with singing spears) after all other primary upgrades are taken, for example vehicle upgrades I would always consider first as they are all very good (apart from Star engines which are mediocre really).
And Farseers and warlocks should always be on bikes, the movement , toughness and wound boost are amazing. If you want a foot seer a Spiritseer with faulchus wing is good.
The 3++ power on the Shining Spear is very good too I think but I think withdraw isn't terrible.
For going to 2k points Wraithseer is always nice to have now it's heavy support and has access to runes of battle, and is a great candidate for witchstrike. More Shining Spears as invulnerables, laser lances and have twin-shuriken which after Starcannons might be our best Weapon, especially when you compare to shuriken cannons which are always 10pts more on platforms that can take them.
Strongly disagree on Battlefortune. Typically your DA will be hiding or in a falcon or in DS. As soo as they appear, and your opponent gets a bead on them, they are dead. 6w t3 with a momentary 4++ is still a god awful defensive profile.
They have 3 purposes in Eldar lists:
1) To pay the troop tax/grab the occasional uncontested objective 2) To deploy scramblers and engage on all fronts 3) To throw out a decent bit of anti-infantry dakka before they fold
Bladestorm really does help with 3), especially if they're targetting a doomed/jinxed enemy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Agree with the rest of your advice though. If I was looking to add to that list, I'd add 4 more spears for sure and the rest on guuny mech like Lynx, Vypers, more Walkers, Platforms or Falcons.
Or I might go for double Crimson Hunter Exarchs - I haven't seen them much in 9e which is strange as they got a huge boost from the new vehicle rule freeing up their exarch power. Baked in -1 to hit and 5++, with the option of a 2+ is gold-standard defence for vehicles.
I've run 2 x CHE in a three round event and they served me very well. Of note, all three opponents played some faction of Space Marines. I don't think I would take them to larger events as more experienced players will be better suited to deal with them.
Dire Avengers start in a vehicle or off board and I generally get one turn out of them once they are on the table. They net me 1-2 Deploy Scramblers and will hold/contest an objective. They get shot off the table. I take a dual Catapult Exarch with Shredding Fire to get the one volley off (Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots).
I rarely, if ever run HQs on a bike. My go to has been a Farseer and 2 man Warlcok Conclave. Getting Jinx off with 36" range while the Farseer buffs other units has worked very well.
Until we get a codex, I've relegated running a mechanized list which wins more than it loses (I am also against a lot of Marine armies).
Farseer
Warlock Conclave (2)
3 x 5 Dire Avengers
1 x5 Warp Spiders (Web of Deceit)
2 x 3 Vypers (Starcannons)
1 x 1 Lynx (Spirit Stones, Starcannon)
1 x 3 War Walkers with Star Cannons
1 x 6 Dark Reapers (Rapid Shot)
1 x 3 Wave Serpents (Spirit Stones and Twin Starcannon)
grouchoben wrote: Strongly disagree on Battlefortune. Typically your DA will be hiding or in a falcon or in DS. As soo as they appear, and your opponent gets a bead on them, they are dead. 6w t3 with a momentary 4++ is still a god awful defensive profile.
They have 3 purposes in Eldar lists:
1) To pay the troop tax/grab the occasional uncontested objective
2) To deploy scramblers and engage on all fronts
3) To throw out a decent bit of anti-infantry dakka before they fold
Bladestorm really does help with 3), especially if they're targetting a doomed/jinxed enemy.
So here is the maths on it:
It's a 5 man DA squad and I've given the Exarch two shurikens, and it's against primaris profile so T4 W2 3+. You can see against bolt rifles it's half a wound extra saved on the DA with Battle Fortune and an extra unsaved wound against a Primaris squad if taking bladestorm
The real benefit of Battle Fortune is against high ap weapons, you can see against plasma it's on average an extra 2 whole wounds saved which is the difference between the squad being wiped out or surviving with 2 aspect warriors, with a lot of objectives requiring you to hold for a turn to score, Battle fortune is a no brainer in 9th. Ideally yeah they'll be hiding somewhere or somehow but you can't always gaurentee that.
However against weaker opponents T3 4+ etc. bladestorm obviously will be a bit better than against marines, and once the Exarch is dead you don't gain benefit of a 4++ anymore but I think it's an invaluable little tool to have on your DA instead of a very marginal offensive boost from bladestorm.
I rarely, if ever run HQs on a bike. My go to has been a Farseer and 2 man Warlcok Conclave. Getting Jinx off with 36" range while the Farseer buffs other units has worked very well.
I think I'm right in saying that seer council doesn't work with conclaves right? If so, is the range benefit worth trading out the +1 for the farseer and warlock? I'd say that's maybe my favourite strat in the codex so I'd be hard pressed to give it up.
Seer Council works. It has the specific `Warlock` keyword, as well `Warlock Conclave`. It and the Farseer then just need to be from the same Craftworld.
Remember that the Warlock Conclave loses the character keyword, which means they can't use Look out Sir for protection. On the other hand, a squad of three+ can protect a Farseer hanging out with them.
Based on my experience with Seer Councils (i.e. 1 or 2 Farseers + a Warlock Conclave) on foot is that the Conclave dies quickly if you're not careful. I would strongly consider starting them off in a transport and then being very careful with them once they disembark. Don't hesitate to buff them with Protect or Fortune.
Use the boosted range to the Conclave's powers to debuff enemy units. That extra range is what they give you over regular psykers, allowing you to target units in the back lines.
Sadly, Warlocks are much less effective in combat than they were in prior editions. I wouldn't rely on them to kill much, unless they happen to encounter the rare target with high wounds, high toughness, and bad armor.
I can't see much of a use for conclaves beyond a two man hiding to cast at double range unfortunately. That's definitely got it's uses but I'm struggling to see a case for a bigger unit, which is a shame since I've got a half dozen old eBay warlocks waiting to get repainted.
2 Man is all I really use. Start in a vehicle, disemabark and get out of LOS. Can use Seer Council stratagem and/or Focus Will and then, after a successful cast, use Concordance of Power for double range. It works very well to cast Jinx.
I've found I don't need Doom to accompany Jinx as most of my army shooting is S6 +. Between Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots, and a start to reroll '1' to wound rolls if near a Farseer, I keep my psykers much further back and generally out of LOS and near a lot of vehicles.
I'm glad to see some other positive reviews on support weapons, as I have found them to be immensely improved from 8th edition, especially D-cannons. Mid-table objectives mean the 24" range is less of an issue. An increase in the amount of obscuring terrain allows more options to stay out of line of sight. They also no longer get the -1 to hit from moving, and always get 3 shots against units of 6+ models since they are blast weapons. The only downside I have come across is they give up easy Bring it Down secondary objective points. I run mine with Expert Crafters and Masters of Concealment since each weapon becomes its own unit and, therefore, gets its own set of rerolls, and vehicles can't gain cover benefits from terrain pieces so that's the only way to get them a 3+ armor save. The 4++ stratagem frequently catches an opponent by surprise and an extra shooting phase from a surviving platform is definitely worth 1CP. All of a sudden those three lascannon/melta shots to feel confident about killing it have to become five or six.
The benefit to taking 4 Warlocks is then you can manifest both sides of a power - Protect and Jinx, for example. Only one of them will get the boosted range, of course, but that usually isn't a problem for the defensive side of the power. You can also protect the Farseer from shooting with a larger unit.
I wouldn't consider a larger Conclave a highly competitive choice, but it's not a terrible choice so long as you keep it safe.
I'm pretty sure that you can't cast both sides of a power in the same phase. You are only allowed to cast a power, other than smite, once per phase and when you cast that power you choose which aspect to cast and that is the only use of that power that phase.
We are talking about a four man squad being able to cast protect and jinx in the same round correct? Conclaves don't just get to cast both do they unless I missed something big.
Even a two man can cast protect and jinx simultaneously even though they can only cast one power per round? That doesn't sound right but I'm not near my codex and I've never used a conclave so I may have just missed that.
The number of Warlocks in a Conclave determine the number of powers able to be cast as well as deny . That is why 4 Warlocks was mentioned as that is the minimum needed to cast 2 powers ( Jinx and Protect, for eaxample). That is described in the Warlock Conclave entry.
Two Warlocks only cast one power (Jinx OR Protect).
I personally don't think Conclaves are competitive at all, the few upsides are nullified by the downsides compared to just taking single Warlocks or Spiritseers.
That being said if focus will is used on them you would be able to reliably cast a number of runes of battle powers. Thus making best use of focus will as Farseers being the other candidates have reliable casting already.
But that being said it would mean you would need to waste a power from some other seer to cast focus will.
Also to add d6 smite for the points it costs to get that on the conclave is an awful option, d6 is not reliable enough, better to have 2 seperate smiters or other mortal wound powers
kryczek wrote: New FAQ's are up. Looks like all our troops went down 2ppm. It's not much but at least it's something.
Yep best change so far for our Dire avengers now the 2nd shuriken catapult on the exarch it's free wich mean we can take minimum squads for just 55 points.
Sarigar wrote: The number of Warlocks in a Conclave determine the number of powers able to be cast as well as deny . That is why 4 Warlocks was mentioned as that is the minimum needed to cast 2 powers ( Jinx and Protect, for eaxample). That is described in the Warlock Conclave entry.
Two Warlocks only cast one power (Jinx OR Protect).
Yeah, that's how I figured it must work. A two man conclave doesn't seem bad at all, as long as you've got the cp to make use of them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Seems like most of our infantry took a reasonable price cut and our best stuff got left alone, so I'm reasonably happy.
We still need a new codex to compete with the big boys but I'll take any help we can get at the moment!
Sarigar wrote: The number of Warlocks in a Conclave determine the number of powers able to be cast as well as deny . That is why 4 Warlocks was mentioned as that is the minimum needed to cast 2 powers ( Jinx and Protect, for eaxample). That is described in the Warlock Conclave entry.
Two Warlocks only cast one power (Jinx OR Protect).
Yeah, that's how I figured it must work. A two man conclave doesn't seem bad at all, as long as you've got the cp to make use of them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Seems like most of our infantry took a reasonable price cut and our best stuff got left alone, so I'm reasonably happy.
We still need a new codex to compete with the big boys but I'll take any help we can get at the moment!
CP certainly are a factor. My list morphed into a single Battalion to maximize them. I tend to spend 4 CP on turn one alone (Seer Council, Concordance of Power, extra Farseer power, Fire and Fade).
kryczek wrote: New FAQ's are up. Looks like all our troops went down 2ppm. It's not much but at least it's something.
Yep best change so far for our Dire avengers now the 2nd shuriken catapult on the exarch it's free wich mean we can take minimum squads for just 55 points.
So with points changes is it worth taking the shield on dire avenger squads since its only 5pts?
Bring It Down
Old: 30 points available (15 max)
New:17 Points available (15 max)
Fire and Fade: Dark Reapers can embark into a Wave Serpent
Dire Avengers: my list gained 45 points.
While We Stand We Fight: No longer states highest pointed models, now states highest pointed UNITS. That makes my War Walker unit, Lynx, and Dark Reapers my 3 highest pointed units. Cagey play can net me more points here as well as mitigate While We Stand We Fight. I generally have not lost all my War Walkers in any game and Wave Serpents are rare to go down (protecting the Dark Reapers).
I drop a Singing Spear, giving me 50 points. Then add 1 Dark Reaper (35) and then add CTM (5) and Vectored Engines (10) to a Wave Serpent that will help protect my Dark Reapers. Army is back at 2000 points.
Some interesting changes with my current army. How about you all?
My current list still gives up 21 bring it down points but my list is pretty much just vehicles so not a great surprise! I'm going to have to have a good look at it though, I designed it with While we stand we fight in mind, which now doesn't really work.
I want to try and keep secondaries in my control but it may prove tricky.
kingheff wrote: My current list still gives up 21 bring it down points but my list is pretty much just vehicles so not a great surprise! I'm going to have to have a good look at it though, I designed it with While we stand we fight in mind, which now doesn't really work.
I want to try and keep secondaries in my control but it may prove tricky.
I agree with trying to build around knowing all three secondary objectives.
I'm trying While We Stand We Fight, Deploy Scramblers and Engage on All Fronts this weekend. I'm very curious to see the FAQ impacts.
Looking at the FAQ, only changes im seeing is: guardians now 8pts/7pts for stormies, DA 11pts and rangers 13 pts.
Is there anything else that I'm missing ?
So with stormies to nearly 8th ed pts levels.
How about the AOK + fearless stormie blobs spam obsec the bejeezus of out objectives.
48 storm guardians with fusion imbedded in each plus AOK is 591pts.
AOK greatly beenfits from EC and can do actions while keeping stormies fearless.
The plan: Plot one on unit the board and the the other in DS. Cast protect and celestial shield for a 24 t3 1W fearless bodies 3++ fling them upfield to try and swarm objectives+ actions. rinse repeat.
All the while the remaining 1400 pts can be the usual suspects of Falcons, war walkers etc.
@Argive:
I could see staggered stormie blobs with celestial shield support being ok for objective grabbing. However...
* I'd probably skip the fusion. Any squads that start on the table probably aren't going to get in range to make much use of them. The deepstriking squad won't be all that killy even with them. The extra points cost kind of counteracts the low cost per body that makes these blobs valuable as objective holders.
*I'd be tempted to pay the extra points for defenders with heavy weapon platforms. Between the platforms add a lot to the survivability of the blob and let the blob that starts on the table contribute at a distance. Plus, defender shooting is actually pretty okay, especially if you guide the blob and/or doom/jinx the target.
* I feel the Avatar is too expensive to be using for actions. Plus, there are some actions he can't do due to the monster and character keywords. If you're basically just taking him for the fearless bubble, you're probably better off just running Iyanden, eating the morale casualties, or maybe even using *gasp!* Will of Asuryan on a farseer for a fraction of the price.
So sadly, even when it comes to be a cheap fodder blob, storm guardians still kind of lose out to defenders. :( I wish they'd lower the squad size of stormies to 5 or even just to 7. Being able to fit a second squad in a wave serpent alongside a double flamer/fusion squad would instantly make them a stronger consideration.
On the note of the Avatar, has anyone had any luck with him this edition? He's fun with EC when you can get him into melee, but his relative slowness limits the number of units I want to use to screen him. Maybe a squad of war walkers could escort him across the table? Or maybe he's worth outflanking with Strategic Reserves if you're using the Headstrong trait?
I ran stormguardians for a lot of 8e. No offence but disembarking from a WS and advancing your fusions have a 22+1d6" threat range, so my experience tells me you're wrong there Wyldhunt.
My advice would be max blob of 24 for relic hunters and celestial shield, or squads of 8 with 2 fusions in transports for relatively cheap AT (with expert crafters, of course).
The idea is to have the sotrmies be the bodyguard for the AOK.
His fearless bublle is not craftworld keyword dependand. So he can be EC/Hunters of relics while your stormies are ulthwe so they can have a 3++/6+++ for extra staying power and have eldrad instead of a standard farseer.
I think you have made a very interesting list. It plays in all phases of the game and looks to have some staying power near objectives. I personally don't own that many Storm Guardians or Wraithseers (23 and 1 respectively), but am very intrigued how a list like this plays. It is light on obsec, but appears to be able to remove other units from an objective. I like it.
48 fearless ob sec bodies doesnt strike me as light. Its far more then a couple of DA squads.
I added Wraithseers coz cool and Im always looking for ways to play mine.. But you could sub them out for wraith lords or any combination of war walkers, defence platforms I think. The falcons too. Could even sub the autarch out for a farseer for more powers etc.
The heavy support is all the dakka.
I think this has potential. Sadly it doesn't look I will be able to test it out at all by the time we get a new dex!
Munitorum field manual says 45 points + 25 for d-cannon, but I was building a list in the app where it is 45 points + 40 for the d-cannon. Hopefully they're staying at 70.
It depends on how it fits in your army, I guess. My Necron opponent is spending 140 points on a Doomstalker for a D6 shot weapon, and he can whiff on that gloriously. For the same cost, I'm sure he'd jump at the consistency of 2D3 shots where you can reroll two hits and two wounds. The d-cannon platforms have been stars for me as allies to a Coven army, since everything is relatively tough and in short range with the opponent.
Oaka wrote: It depends on how it fits in your army, I guess. My Necron opponent is spending 140 points on a Doomstalker for a D6 shot weapon, and he can whiff on that gloriously. For the same cost, I'm sure he'd jump at the consistency of 2D3 shots where you can reroll two hits and two wounds. The d-cannon platforms have been stars for me as allies to a Coven army, since everything is relatively tough and in short range with the opponent.
So a bit of a thought experiment if anyone wants to join in.
There's a 1250 point local single elimination league taking place whenever restrictions end and I was going to take my Eldar. I've not had the chance to play any low point games in 9th and was wondering if anyone had? This one is using incursion missions (the one for 1k games) and rule of two is in effect.
How would you build a list for that size of a game right now? I was thinking of going for a patrol that roughly looks like this below. Haven't picked exarch powers or the like yet so I welcome feedback. It's basically a scaled down version of my 2k list but with Dark Reapers slotted in to have a go at fire and fading into tanks. It is meant to be a casual league but knowing Eldar aren't strong right now I'd like at least a fighting chance. I have themed the army around aspect warriors as a result.
Expert Crafters/Masterful Shots - Patrol Detachment HQ Farseer w/ Smite, Doom and Guide - Faolchu's Wing Spiritseer w/ Focus Will, Jinx/Protect - Warlord with seer of the shifting vector
Troops 5 DA w/ 2x Catapult Exarch (Shredding fire, bladestorm or battle fortune?)
Fast 5 Warp Spiders w/ 2x Spinner Exarch (Web of Deceit) 5 Shining Spears w/ Exarch (Skilled Rider)
Heavy 3 War Walkers each w/ starcannon + AML 5 Dark Reapers w/ Tempest Exarch (Rain of Death)
Transport Wave Serpent w/ starcannons, shuriken cannon and spirit stones
That's my rough list anyway so it's under by a good few points so it's got wiggle room. Ideally, I think another Wave Serpent would make it way tougher but I am unsure what to drop for it. I could also switch to a battalion but that would be 165 points of troop tax which I don't know if the points size can afford.
Personally, I still only like vibros. They're nice long range, efficient shooting with the bonus of slowing down non fly units.
Shadow weavers are overpriced for what is basically a shuriken cannon and d-cannon range is too short on such a slow platform so can be played around. If the range was 36" or the platforms had fly they'd be great, of course YMMV.
Tyranid Horde wrote: So a bit of a thought experiment if anyone wants to join in.
There's a 1250 point local single elimination league taking place whenever restrictions end and I was going to take my Eldar. I've not had the chance to play any low point games in 9th and was wondering if anyone had? This one is using incursion missions (the one for 1k games) and rule of two is in effect.
How would you build a list for that size of a game right now? I was thinking of going for a patrol that roughly looks like this below. Haven't picked exarch powers or the like yet so I welcome feedback. It's basically a scaled down version of my 2k list but with Dark Reapers slotted in to have a go at fire and fading into tanks.
It is meant to be a casual league but knowing Eldar aren't strong right now I'd like at least a fighting chance. I have themed the army around aspect warriors as a result.
Expert Crafters/Masterful Shots - Patrol Detachment
HQ Farseer w/ Smite, Doom and Guide - Faolchu's Wing
Spiritseer w/ Focus Will, Jinx/Protect - Warlord with seer of the shifting vector
Troops
5 DA w/ 2x Catapult Exarch (Shredding fire, bladestorm or battle fortune?)
Fast
5 Warp Spiders w/ 2x Spinner Exarch (Web of Deceit)
5 Shining Spears w/ Exarch (Skilled Rider)
Heavy
3 War Walkers each w/ starcannon + AML
5 Dark Reapers w/ Tempest Exarch (Rain of Death)
Transport
Wave Serpent w/ starcannons, shuriken cannon and spirit stones
That's my rough list anyway so it's under by a good few points so it's got wiggle room. Ideally, I think another Wave Serpent would make it way tougher but I am unsure what to drop for it. I could also switch to a battalion but that would be 165 points of troop tax which I don't know if the points size can afford.
Thoughts?
I like the tricky maneuvering you have, but I think more guns... many more guns is better. Warlock over Spiritseer so you can seer council (can go either way I suppose) My guess is your max shooting with everything on the board takes out 10 primaris vs this list at about 20 primaris. or from greasing 1 tank to 2 tanks.
2 Patrols
Expert Crafters/Masterful Shots
HQ Farseer w/ Smite, Doom and Guide - Faolchu's Wing & Singing Spear (Probably, Phoenix Gem instead)
Warlock w/ Jinx/Protect & Singing Spear - Warlord with seer of the shifting vector
Troops
5 DA w/ 2x Catapult Exarch
5 DA w/ 2x Catapult Exarch
Elites
5 Banshees Exarch w/ Executioner (rides in falcon, 20"+ charge range --->counter charge insurance)
Fast
3 vipers starcannon
2 vipers starcannon
Heavy
3 Vibrocannons
5 Dark Reapers Exarch w/ Fast Shot
1 Falcon - Pulse Laser and Starcannon and Spirit Stones
1 Falcon - Pulse Laser and Brightlance and Spirit Stones
Argive wrote: I just noticed the War walker options for Heavy weapons are all 10pts cheaper...
Not sure if it it was mentioned but seems like an obvious mistake if they are flat 20 across everything else.
Guess GW has a shedload of war walkers stocked up now...
They just priced it as the walker is 60 and the shuriken cannons are 0 instead of pricing it at 40/10/10. It works out to be exactly the same as every other unit. It’s weird but much ado about nothing.
Fast
5 Warp Spiders w/ 2x Spinner Exarch (Web of Deceit)
5 Shining Spears w/ Exarch (Skilled Rider)
Heavy
3 War Walkers each w/ starcannon + AML
5 Dark Reapers w/ Tempest Exarch (Rain of Death)
Transport
Wave Serpent w/ starcannons, shuriken cannon and spirit stones
That's my rough list anyway so it's under by a good few points so it's got wiggle room. Ideally, I think another Wave Serpent would make it way tougher but I am unsure what to drop for it. I could also switch to a battalion but that would be 165 points of troop tax which I don't know if the points size can afford.
Thoughts?
I like the general shape of it. The striking scorpions jump out at me as being a bit out of place. I'm not a huge fan of Ambush, personally. If you want to use these guys to camp objectives, you're probably better off with Stalker. If you want them to get into combat and hurt things, several other powers would do the job better, but I'm honestly kind of underwhelmed by their melee output. Howling banshees would do more damage, have a longer threat range, and would be a bit better at tying most targets up for a turn. That said, I mostly recommend banshees because they fill a similar role and because I like them.
Basically, I'd drop the scorpions. If that frees up points for a wave serpent, great. A serpent would give you more gun, much more durability, and a mobile unit that could jump on objectives. If dropping the scorpions doesn't get you enough points for a serpent, maybe consider...
* More dire avengers. You can Strategic Reserves several units for a single CP. I've been pleasantly surprised by how much work a couple squads of doomed shuriken fire in the right spot can do, plus they're obsec in a pinch.
* Banshees. As stated above, they're more killy than scorpions, faster than scorpions, and pretty good at tagging your opponent's shootiest unit for a turn. At 1250, your opponent is more likely to have a small number of important shooty units, so tagging one of them (if only to die in your opponent's next turn) can actually be pretty useful.
* More reapers. I"m guessing the current squad size is to fit the seers and avengers in with them, but you can play musical chairs on turn 1 or just put the avengers in reserves if needed. The reapers will probably be using the serpent as a turn 1 bunker and then never getting inside of it again, but a couple more reapers could really up your firepower. Plus, that would make the reapers a better target for LFR, Protect, and Guide if you decide your best bet is to castle up against a given opponent.
* More spears. I'm reluctant to make these guys too pricey given that you can't control how much BLOS terrain they'll have access to, but beefing them up would boost their synergy with LFR, Protect, and Guide just like it would the reapers.
Other random thoughts:
* You can get away with swapping the spirit seer for a warlock if you need a few extra points. He's pretty safe from having his head explode with Seer of the Shifting Vector.
* Regarding avenger loadouts... If the unit is small, you probably want Shredding Fire + double catapults on the exarch. If the unit is big, you want Bladestorm + double catapults. If you want to be cute, you can consider going shimmer shield + Defend and maaaaybe throwing on Battle Fortune. I've used that last one alongside Banshees a fair bit. It's probably not optimal, but you can charge the unit into the same target as the banshees and make them choose between stabbing your obsec avengers with the invul save or your damage dealing banshees, both units being -1 to hit. But again, probably go shredding fire or bladestorm.
* Heck yeah, Web of Deceit! That power has been very good to me this edition. Mostly as a way to fall back and shoot without "falling back."
Tyranid Horde wrote: So a bit of a thought experiment if anyone wants to join in.
There's a 1250 point local single elimination league taking place whenever restrictions end and I was going to take my Eldar. I've not had the chance to play any low point games in 9th and was wondering if anyone had? This one is using incursion missions (the one for 1k games) and rule of two is in effect.
How would you build a list for that size of a game right now? I was thinking of going for a patrol that roughly looks like this below. Haven't picked exarch powers or the like yet so I welcome feedback. It's basically a scaled down version of my 2k list but with Dark Reapers slotted in to have a go at fire and fading into tanks.
It is meant to be a casual league but knowing Eldar aren't strong right now I'd like at least a fighting chance. I have themed the army around aspect warriors as a result.
Expert Crafters/Masterful Shots - Patrol Detachment
HQ Farseer w/ Smite, Doom and Guide - Faolchu's Wing
Spiritseer w/ Focus Will, Jinx/Protect - Warlord with seer of the shifting vector
Troops
5 DA w/ 2x Catapult Exarch (Shredding fire, bladestorm or battle fortune?)
Fast
5 Warp Spiders w/ 2x Spinner Exarch (Web of Deceit)
5 Shining Spears w/ Exarch (Skilled Rider)
Heavy
3 War Walkers each w/ starcannon + AML
5 Dark Reapers w/ Tempest Exarch (Rain of Death)
Transport
Wave Serpent w/ starcannons, shuriken cannon and spirit stones
That's my rough list anyway so it's under by a good few points so it's got wiggle room. Ideally, I think another Wave Serpent would make it way tougher but I am unsure what to drop for it. I could also switch to a battalion but that would be 165 points of troop tax which I don't know if the points size can afford.
Thoughts?
Unfortunately a lot of the aspect warriors are pretty underwhelming and overpriced. Avengers are pretty decent with the price drop, spears are good counter punch units, hawks and spiders have great movement/tricks for playing the mission.
I'd take what you need from those units and supplement those with vehicles which are the craftworlds strength at the moment.
New to Eldar and to 9th ed, so sorry for the noob question - i'm putting my list together and wondering about my HQ choice(s).
I like the idea of having a good number of opportunities to cast psychic abilities from different areas on the table - was looking into farseers but I can't find the rules regarding whether they can join other units, particularly warlocks, in 9th edition?
No, they're all separate HQ units, can no longer join other units I'm afraid.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As to your list Tyranid Horde, firstly I wouldn't assume that putting more wave serpents in your list will make it tougher - my experience it's the opposite. If you're playing any Imperium army (and that's probably 75% of your opponents right now), there will be a lot of melta doing the rounds. dropping from 1d6+2 damage to 1d6+1 is negligible. Going wide is the best defence we have for vehicles right now, especially with the change to Bring It Down (only 1cp for lil vehicles like walkers and vypers). The other is invuln saves and hiding out of LoS - the Wave serpent is plain bad in all these categories. If you must have transports, go with falcons as they're much more points efficient.
I'll also disagree with other posters about the scorpions - if they're part of your gameplan, they can be a good unit. They are great for Engage on All Fronts and Deploy Scramblers. They do almost nothing else though, unfortunately. I'd keep em cheap and stick the 5+ mortal wound exarch power on em and call it a day, if you're going for those secondaries. Really though, I think it's either them or the spiders, not both.
So yeah, more walkers or other small vehicles would be great.
I had a potentially interesting idea around the while we stand we fight secondary. Namely a unit of swooping hawks. With their ability to deep strike/disappear off the board they should be an easy 5 pts plus great scramblers material late game once the opposition deployment zone has been thinned out.
I've posted the full list in the army list section, but I think it's a very useful little trick to help with secondaries.
kingheff wrote: I had a potentially interesting idea around the while we stand we fight secondary. Namely a unit of swooping hawks. With their ability to deep strike/disappear off the board they should be an easy 5 pts plus great scramblers material late game once the opposition deployment zone has been thinned out.
I've posted the full list in the army list section, but I think it's a very useful little trick to help with secondaries.
I played 2 games last weekend playing that secondary with Dark Reapers, a Lynx, and a unit of 3 War Walkers. I lost one full unit of War Walkers once out of the two games and didn't lose any of the others. I definitely think there is some merit to choose While We Stand We Fight.
kingheff wrote: I had a potentially interesting idea around the while we stand we fight secondary. Namely a unit of swooping hawks. With their ability to deep strike/disappear off the board they should be an easy 5 pts plus great scramblers material late game once the opposition deployment zone has been thinned out.
I've posted the full list in the army list section, but I think it's a very useful little trick to help with secondaries.
I played 2 games last weekend playing that secondary with Dark Reapers, a Lynx, and a unit of 3 War Walkers. I lost one full unit of War Walkers once out of the two games and didn't lose any of the others. I definitely think there is some merit to choose While We Stand We Fight.
Heh, with the irony being that I changed my list because I didn't want two squads of three star cannon walkers to be my while we stand choices! I've always planned on having my choices able to hide (so characters really plus the hawks in this case). I'm wondering how you played it with your options being more easily targetable?
I think my option will have issues with a fast moving assault styled army. However, that is a general weakness my current builds have. I've not been able to build a solid take all comers list in 9th as of yet.
I'm finding reserve usage and Phantasm helps relieve some of the pressure as well as being willing and knowing when to sacrifice units. Dire Avengers and Vypers pushing out early, then reserves coming in later seems to spread out my opponents last weekend allowing my Lynx and Wave Serpent with Reapers to avoid being targeted. I threw away my War Walker unit by underestimating how much shooting the Silent King model would take and lost them to assault. I could have avoided the assault altogether had I not gotten over anxious trying to achieve Engage on all Fronts.
Yeah, fast moving assault is the bane of gunlines in 9th. Which is often a problem since craftworlds shooting is our best option!
I've found move blocking with vypers to be pretty effective with my previous list so I'm hoping my vypers and wraithlords can do that in my new list.
I understand about the pressure to get engage points, sometimes patience is a tough virtue to maintain! I try to aim for 10-12 rather than sacrificing units trying to max it.
I agree that phantasm is crucial to our 9e playstyle. I refuse flanks pretty regularly now, and the tactic plays so well into our longrange firepower and mobility. For me it's gone from a sometimes-used strat to the single most important strat in our dear old codex.
grouchoben wrote: I agree that phantasm is crucial to our 9e playstyle. I refuse flanks pretty regularly now, and the tactic plays so well into our longrange firepower and mobility. For me it's gone from a sometimes-used strat to the single most important strat in our dear old codex.
Especially with the change to going first, it allows manipulation of six units really. If you've got six aggressive units you can deploy three on the front lines and three hidden. Pop phantasm and move three forward if you win and hide three if you lose.
Swooping Hawks & Baharroth - do people rate them? I rarely see people playing them but the ability to descend on objectives seems very useful - and the ability to re-ascend is very unique!
Be good to get some personal experience advice before I shell out on a unit.
Baharroth is not worth it, a squad of hawks or two can be pretty good to get to table quarters, scramblers and objectives. They should be weighed against scorpions, which are tougher and cheaper, but lack mobility (also hawks get more shots and the grenade pack, where scorpions need to charge, but when they do they get a good amount of s4 attacks and some mw, too).
I've just added a squad of hawks to my list for the express purpose of having them jump into the sky and hiding for while we stand we fight/deploy scramblers secondaries.
Hawks hit like a gentle breeze but they can be very useful as long as you don't want them to kill anything.
Cpt. Icanus wrote:Baharroth is not worth it, a squad of hawks or two can be pretty good to get to table quarters, scramblers and objectives. They should be weighed against scorpions, which are tougher and cheaper, but lack mobility (also hawks get more shots and the grenade pack, where scorpions need to charge, but when they do they get a good amount of s4 attacks and some mw, too).
I'm undecided on Scorpions. I've got a unit of 6 Fire Dragons with a falcon transport for decent firepower with good mobility. I HATE that you can't disembark after the vehicle moves now though - ridiculous.
Why do you say that about Baharroth?
kingheff wrote:I've just added a squad of hawks to my list for the express purpose of having them jump into the sky and hiding for while we stand we fight/deploy scramblers secondaries.
Hawks hit like a gentle breeze but they can be very useful as long as you don't want them to kill anything.
I quite like the idea of being able to drop onto an objective late in the game and steal it from an (ideally already weakened) enemy unit. That or plant them on an objective early and hold it until a more resilient unit arrives to protect it and then they can move along to the next.
I hear what you're saying about the guns but assault 4 means there are plenty of shots to fire - combine that with a successful Doom cast and you could be dishing out a fair few save rolls.
Biggest problem i'm finding with Eldar weaponry is that the infantry guns are short range, which is problematic in itself given that you don't really want your enemies getting within charging distance.
Even if your enemy doesn't want to get close - a unit of SM sm can safely sit 24" away and spray the hell out of me and unless I want to move away from my position I can't return fire.
Hawks being one of your most expensive units means you are paying a lot for nothing in return. If you are hiding them, then they aren't shooting. If they are on the board, they are durable like a wet paper bag, so they will fold to anything that looks at them.
A ten man squad is going to do about 7 wounds to MEQ and then they will be stuck on the table for a counter attack. Tack on the avg one MW from grenade pack, and they've managed to kill 4 primaris, which means the squad is still alive.
I've used Hawks for Deploy Scramblers and Engage on all Fronts. However, I've found I prefer Warp Spiders to fill that role due to better Save, ability to get -1 to hit, and Web of Deceit to move anywhere on the table once per game. With all that, I felt it was worth the extra 25 or so points.
mokoshkana wrote: Hawks being one of your most expensive units means you are paying a lot for nothing in return. If you are hiding them, then they aren't shooting. If they are on the board, they are durable like a wet paper bag, so they will fold to anything that looks at them.
A ten man squad is going to do about 7 wounds to MEQ and then they will be stuck on the table for a counter attack. Tack on the avg one MW from grenade pack, and they've managed to kill 4 primaris, which means the squad is still alive.
The hawk squad is 117 points (the list is designed to have lots of cheap stuff to make them one of the three most expensive) so losing out on that isn't really a big loss. They're in the list only for the secondaries they can help me score which is something that really needs to be thought about in list design these days.
@Crafter91 I use very little infantry at the moment for that reason, my lists tend to be very vehicle heavy.
mokoshkana wrote: Hawks being one of your most expensive units means you are paying a lot for nothing in return. If you are hiding them, then they aren't shooting. If they are on the board, they are durable like a wet paper bag, so they will fold to anything that looks at them.
A ten man squad is going to do about 7 wounds to MEQ and then they will be stuck on the table for a counter attack. Tack on the avg one MW from grenade pack, and they've managed to kill 4 primaris, which means the squad is still alive.
The hawk squad is 117 points (the list is designed to have lots of cheap stuff to make them one of the three most expensive) so losing out on that isn't really a big loss. They're in the list only for the secondaries they can help me score which is something that really needs to be thought about in list design these days.
@Crafter91 I use very little infantry at the moment for that reason, my lists tend to be very vehicle heavy.
Honestly, I think you could achieve the same thing with min Jetbike squads. Just as fast, hit about the same (more penetration potential at a shorter range) for half the cost.
mokoshkana wrote: Hawks being one of your most expensive units means you are paying a lot for nothing in return. If you are hiding them, then they aren't shooting. If they are on the board, they are durable like a wet paper bag, so they will fold to anything that looks at them.
A ten man squad is going to do about 7 wounds to MEQ and then they will be stuck on the table for a counter attack. Tack on the avg one MW from grenade pack, and they've managed to kill 4 primaris, which means the squad is still alive.
The hawk squad is 117 points (the list is designed to have lots of cheap stuff to make them one of the three most expensive) so losing out on that isn't really a big loss. They're in the list only for the secondaries they can help me score which is something that really needs to be thought about in list design these days.
@Crafter91 I use very little infantry at the moment for that reason, my lists tend to be very vehicle heavy.
Honestly, I think you could achieve the same thing with min Jetbike squads. Just as fast, hit about the same (more penetration potential at a shorter range) for half the cost.
They're not infantry and they wouldn't count as one of my three most expensive units so whilst I think min squads of windriders are good (though I prefer vypers personally) they are unable to replicate the job I have in mind for this list which I'll put below for illustration purposes.
Small change to Power Levels. 5 Dire Avengers are now 2 PL. In my current list, I can run 4 x 5 Dire Avengers (8 PL) and spend 1 CP to put all of them in Strategic Reserves.
mokoshkana wrote: Hawks being one of your most expensive units means you are paying a lot for nothing in return. If you are hiding them, then they aren't shooting. If they are on the board, they are durable like a wet paper bag, so they will fold to anything that looks at them.
A ten man squad is going to do about 7 wounds to MEQ and then they will be stuck on the table for a counter attack. Tack on the avg one MW from grenade pack, and they've managed to kill 4 primaris, which means the squad is still alive.
The hawk squad is 117 points (the list is designed to have lots of cheap stuff to make them one of the three most expensive) so losing out on that isn't really a big loss. They're in the list only for the secondaries they can help me score which is something that really needs to be thought about in list design these days.
@Crafter91 I use very little infantry at the moment for that reason, my lists tend to be very vehicle heavy.
Honestly, I think you could achieve the same thing with min Jetbike squads. Just as fast, hit about the same (more penetration potential at a shorter range) for half the cost.
They're not infantry and they wouldn't count as one of my three most expensive units so whilst I think min squads of windriders are good (though I prefer vypers personally) they are unable to replicate the job I have in mind for this list which I'll put below for illustration purposes.
Crafter91 wrote:Swooping Hawks & Baharroth - do people rate them? I rarely see people playing them but the ability to descend on objectives seems very useful - and the ability to re-ascend is very unique!
Be good to get some personal experience advice before I shell out on a unit.
Baharroth has a special place in my heart, but he's been a bit confused since the removal of the IC and HIt & Run rules. When he could join a hawk squad, he was a great way to boost the unit's mobility (hit & run), keep your hawks shooting, get an extra grenade pack, and put an unexpectedly chunky body in the middle of a normally squishy unit. Right now, he doesn't hit very hard, he doesn't benefit from his own reroll aura, his sword's special rule is very situational, and he competes for slots with psykers. I still take him in casual games, but he's neither a beatstick in his own right nor a real force multiplier for your hawks (a seer with Doom and/or Guide does way more for your hawk units). He's also harder to keep alive in 9th than in 8th. In 8th, I could deploy a few deepstriking units with him and let him wander off to isolated areas of the table to bully shooty units or take objectives. Now, he's targetable if he doesn't have a body guard (and hawks aren't exactly durably body guards in their own right).
I'm pretty happy with hawks this edition. They don't do much damage against marines, but their raw volume of fire is awesome if you're ever facing something with low toughness and/or bad saves. Such armies just don't happen to be very popular in the meta right this moment. When I use them, I've been leaning towards the 5+ grenade pack exarch power. It isn't reliable, but a couple units dealing mortal wounds on a 5+ can chip away at a key target in a pinch, and an obscure(ish) rule that does mortal wounds tends to freak my opponents out a bit. Basically, hawks are mobile, have reach, and are easy to hide. They don't hit all that hard, but they can chip in wherever you need them to.
Compared to bikes, I find they're easier to hide, especially if you have CP for a Fire and Fade. They also let you do a bit of a reserves heavy beta strike list; just hide them in deployment, sky leap on turn 1, then bring them in with the rest of your reserves on turn 2.
Argive wrote:What are people's thoughts on Shadow specters?
I haven't used them much yet this edition, but they seem a lot better than they were. They're pretty good at killing marines. They no longer cost CP to deepstrike. Their blast profile means that they can scare hordes just as much as they scare marines. That said, they're squishy and hard to hide. Even when you could stack to-hit modifiers, I frequently found that they weren't very durable, and now they can't even do that. I think they might fall into the same category as drukhari scourges: reasonably hard-hitting, but difficult to keep alive after they show up.
Also, I'm a dork who loves overly complicated gimmick rules, and part of me is sad that the spectres keep getting less weird each edition.
Argive wrote: What are people's thoughts on Shadow specters?
I've played a few games with them and I've been pleasantly surprised. While I didn't think their 9E rules were bad, I did think their 8E rules were better. However, experience has shown that they're extremely good at killing any sort of infantry, so long as you can keep them alive. (I usually play with Expert Crafters and Masters of Concealment.)
With their two modes of fire Shadow Spectres can kill any sort of infantry. The dispersed shot tends to be overkill against its optimal targets (guardsmen and the like), so you often only need to fire a few blasts into light infantry to kill them off. The focussed shot is optimal for killing Marines. Pretty obvious stuff.
Since you can deploy the Spectres out of reserves and they had decent range you can usually pick and choose your targets. However, Spectres die quickly, even with a -1 to hit and 2+ save in cover. Try to block off LOS with terrain, and, ideally, place them so they can kill anything that can shoot back. The flank is usually the best place for them, as the edge of the board naturally limits attackers. The Spectres can knock off the enemy's flanking troops, and then work their way towards the center.
I find Doom to be an excellent power for Spectres, as it allows them to gun down tanks and monsters, or completely obliterate a horde of light infantry. Fortune can be good for some extra survivability, but it will only keep them alive against fairly feeble small arms fire. Fire and Fade is your best friend. They are good targets for Forwarned.
The Exarch does nothing, and neither does Shadow of Death rule.
mokoshkana wrote: Hawks being one of your most expensive units means you are paying a lot for nothing in return. If you are hiding them, then they aren't shooting. If they are on the board, they are durable like a wet paper bag, so they will fold to anything that looks at them.
A ten man squad is going to do about 7 wounds to MEQ and then they will be stuck on the table for a counter attack. Tack on the avg one MW from grenade pack, and they've managed to kill 4 primaris, which means the squad is still alive.
The hawk squad is 117 points (the list is designed to have lots of cheap stuff to make them one of the three most expensive) so losing out on that isn't really a big loss. They're in the list only for the secondaries they can help me score which is something that really needs to be thought about in list design these days.
@Crafter91 I use very little infantry at the moment for that reason, my lists tend to be very vehicle heavy.
Honestly, I think you could achieve the same thing with min Jetbike squads. Just as fast, hit about the same (more penetration potential at a shorter range) for half the cost.
They're not infantry and they wouldn't count as one of my three most expensive units so whilst I think min squads of windriders are good (though I prefer vypers personally) they are unable to replicate the job I have in mind for this list which I'll put below for illustration purposes.
Support Weapons [8 PL, 90pts]
. Support Weapon: Vibro Cannon
. Support Weapon: Vibro Cannon
Support Weapons [8 PL, 90pts]
. Support Weapon: Vibro Cannon
. Support Weapon: Vibro Cannon
Support Weapons [8 PL, 90pts]
. Support Weapon: Vibro Cannon
. Support Weapon: Vibro Cannon
War Walkers [4 PL, 70pts]
. War Walker: Starcannon, Starcannon
War Walkers [4 PL, 70pts]
. War Walker: Starcannon, Starcannon
War Walkers [4 PL, 70pts]
. War Walker: Starcannon, Starcannon
++ Total: [130 PL, 9CP, 2,063pts] ++
I really like this list.
Personaly i would tweak it to find room for asurmen seeing as you are taking so many DA.
Thanks! I have done lists with asurman (I've toyed with one with added banshees with 5+++ in combat) but I wanted to try one out using the shields for the 5++ allowing me to spread out rather than bunching up around asurman. I think it's one of the strengths of the list, lots of small pretty durable stuff to spread out whilst still hitting decently hard.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Speaking of asurman I do wonder if you could combo him with deepstriking spectres. Their firepower is good and with protect they go to a 2+/4++, I think they're just a bit too expensive for competitive play but they will definitely do good work against gravis marines or plague marines which is no bad thing.
I can't find anything in the mini rulebook or the eldar codex that says they do. Does anybody know of a rule that says more than one unit can share a transport vehicle. Not at the same time of course, but have one unit disembark and another embark in a subsequent turn?
I can't find anything in the mini rulebook or the eldar codex that says they do. Does anybody know of a rule that says more than one unit can share a transport vehicle. Not at the same time of course, but have one unit disembark and another embark in a subsequent turn?
I can't find anything in the mini rulebook or the eldar codex that says they do. Does anybody know of a rule that says more than one unit can share a transport vehicle. Not at the same time of course, but have one unit disembark and another embark in a subsequent turn?
They do not. It is a term that has been utilized for several editions. The movement phase of the rulebook details what can embark inside a transport (multiple units can embark at the same time up to max transport capacity).
I've played in two small events, one x 3 round and one x 5 round with the new FAQ. I've gone 4-4 overall (1-2 and 3-2) with basically the same army.
Positives:
While We Stand We Fight. In 6 of 8 games, I earned 10-15 points. When earning only 10 points, it was because of me getting a unit of War Walkers too close. Dark Reapers and a Lynx survived 6 out of 8 games. Two of my losses were complete blowouts where I essentially lost my army. The other two losses were actually close games.
Lowered Points: Dire Avengers point values feel about right now. The lowered points allowed for me to take another entire unit. Having more objective secured helped treme. Warp Spider Exarch picked up the second Deathspinner for free, but they rarely fired; just use them to aid with Deploy Scramblers.
Fire and Fade: I used it with Dark Reapers and a Wave Serpent and didn't lose them except for the two blowout games. Very useful.
Overall, I found the point changes more useful. I definitely need 5-6 Troop choices in a list primarily to act as an objective secured spoiler. Their mobility would allow for my army to react to contest objectives. In this manner, going second didn't punish my army and actually opened up a bit more shooting for me. Opponents would get onto objectives first allowing me the ability to prioritize targets. A close second is the roll for first turn. I can set up much more defensive, preparing to go second, though knowing I can reposition three units.
The downside, still, is fast moving armies. My two blowouts were against IG and a Khorne army. Both armies got first turn and both have solid abilities for additional movement. My army needs more space and time in order to create pockets on the table in order to maneuver. Both armies denied me that and crushed me hard. The learning lesson here is to better screen, which will likely come from cheap bodies such as Guardians or even Dire Avengers (solid overwatch capability). Another option is a unit of Swooping Hawks where I can reduce enemy charge distances by 2". A third option, though not quite as impactful, IMO, are Vibro Cannons to deny Advances for some units. I suppose I should have used my Vypers to screen, and definitely something I should habe a better understanding of.
Another challenge for me is that the armies I am facing of late are different. After facing Marines primarily since late 8th edition, these last two events have been different. Out of 8 games, only 2 have been against Marines (which I solidly won both). My army is skewed towards Marines. However, 150 Guardsmen don't care how many Stacannons are in my army, or Dark Elder invulnerable saves care not about ignore cover and -3 AP. I am playing in a three round event tomorrow and if two games are against non Marines, I will definitely have to reconstruct my list.
Crafter91 wrote: Anybody making any major changes following the recent FAQ revisions?
You mean as of two weeks ago?
Well yes..... ?
Sarigar wrote:I've played in two small events, one x 3 round and one x 5 round with the new FAQ. I've gone 4-4 overall (1-2 and 3-2) with basically the same army.
Positives:
While We Stand We Fight. In 6 of 8 games, I earned 10-15 points. When earning only 10 points, it was because of me getting a unit of War Walkers too close. Dark Reapers and a Lynx survived 6 out of 8 games. Two of my losses were complete blowouts where I essentially lost my army. The other two losses were actually close games.
Lowered Points: Dire Avengers point values feel about right now. The lowered points allowed for me to take another entire unit. Having more objective secured helped treme. Warp Spider Exarch picked up the second Deathspinner for free, but they rarely fired; just use them to aid with Deploy Scramblers.
Fire and Fade: I used it with Dark Reapers and a Wave Serpent and didn't lose them except for the two blowout games. Very useful.
Overall, I found the point changes more useful. I definitely need 5-6 Troop choices in a list primarily to act as an objective secured spoiler. Their mobility would allow for my army to react to contest objectives. In this manner, going second didn't punish my army and actually opened up a bit more shooting for me. Opponents would get onto objectives first allowing me the ability to prioritize targets. A close second is the roll for first turn. I can set up much more defensive, preparing to go second, though knowing I can reposition three units.
The downside, still, is fast moving armies. My two blowouts were against IG and a Khorne army. Both armies got first turn and both have solid abilities for additional movement. My army needs more space and time in order to create pockets on the table in order to maneuver. Both armies denied me that and crushed me hard. The learning lesson here is to better screen, which will likely come from cheap bodies such as Guardians or even Dire Avengers (solid overwatch capability). Another option is a unit of Swooping Hawks where I can reduce enemy charge distances by 2". A third option, though not quite as impactful, IMO, are Vibro Cannons to deny Advances for some units. I suppose I should have used my Vypers to screen, and definitely something I should habe a better understanding of.
Another challenge for me is that the armies I am facing of late are different. After facing Marines primarily since late 8th edition, these last two events have been different. Out of 8 games, only 2 have been against Marines (which I solidly won both). My army is skewed towards Marines. However, 150 Guardsmen don't care how many Stacannons are in my army, or Dark Elder invulnerable saves care not about ignore cover and -3 AP. I am playing in a three round event tomorrow and if two games are against non Marines, I will definitely have to reconstruct my list.
The FAQ is not a total fix, but does help.
Yes, i think Fire and Fade is a great update - Fire Dragons will certainly benefit.
I picked up on them lowering the VP awarded for Bring it Down too which will benefit most Eldar lists.
Crafter91 wrote: Anybody making any major changes following the recent FAQ revisions?
Only the changes I listed above, which during testing is working out extremely well but that's only against myself using either marines, craftworlds or drukhari.
The hawks are working out great for while we stand plus their ability to fly off the table turn one and come back when I need them is really good. Still happy running my avengers without Asurman, even though I love him. The ability to have them do what I need doing without worrying about auras is very useful from a mission perspective even if they die quicker.
I'm hoping to get a real game (on TTS) this weekend to try it in a real game.
Crafter91 wrote: Anybody making any major changes following the recent FAQ revisions?
You mean as of two weeks ago?
Well yes..... ?
Sarigar wrote:I've played in two small events, one x 3 round and one x 5 round with the new FAQ. I've gone 4-4 overall (1-2 and 3-2) with basically the same army.
Positives:
While We Stand We Fight. In 6 of 8 games, I earned 10-15 points. When earning only 10 points, it was because of me getting a unit of War Walkers too close. Dark Reapers and a Lynx survived 6 out of 8 games. Two of my losses were complete blowouts where I essentially lost my army. The other two losses were actually close games.
Lowered Points: Dire Avengers point values feel about right now. The lowered points allowed for me to take another entire unit. Having more objective secured helped treme. Warp Spider Exarch picked up the second Deathspinner for free, but they rarely fired; just use them to aid with Deploy Scramblers.
Fire and Fade: I used it with Dark Reapers and a Wave Serpent and didn't lose them except for the two blowout games. Very useful.
Overall, I found the point changes more useful. I definitely need 5-6 Troop choices in a list primarily to act as an objective secured spoiler. Their mobility would allow for my army to react to contest objectives. In this manner, going second didn't punish my army and actually opened up a bit more shooting for me. Opponents would get onto objectives first allowing me the ability to prioritize targets. A close second is the roll for first turn. I can set up much more defensive, preparing to go second, though knowing I can reposition three units.
The downside, still, is fast moving armies. My two blowouts were against IG and a Khorne army. Both armies got first turn and both have solid abilities for additional movement. My army needs more space and time in order to create pockets on the table in order to maneuver. Both armies denied me that and crushed me hard. The learning lesson here is to better screen, which will likely come from cheap bodies such as Guardians or even Dire Avengers (solid overwatch capability). Another option is a unit of Swooping Hawks where I can reduce enemy charge distances by 2". A third option, though not quite as impactful, IMO, are Vibro Cannons to deny Advances for some units. I suppose I should have used my Vypers to screen, and definitely something I should habe a better understanding of.
Another challenge for me is that the armies I am facing of late are different. After facing Marines primarily since late 8th edition, these last two events have been different. Out of 8 games, only 2 have been against Marines (which I solidly won both). My army is skewed towards Marines. However, 150 Guardsmen don't care how many Stacannons are in my army, or Dark Elder invulnerable saves care not about ignore cover and -3 AP. I am playing in a three round event tomorrow and if two games are against non Marines, I will definitely have to reconstruct my list.
The FAQ is not a total fix, but does help.
Yes, i think Fire and Fade is a great update - Fire Dragons will certainly benefit.
I picked up on them lowering the VP awarded for Bring it Down too which will benefit most Eldar lists.
Have to let us know how you get on tomorrow!
Bring It Down is important. It is not an auto take for my opponents. Those that did scored much lower (3 games); the highest score against me was 7 points.
Do you need to get rid of any of these ?
I think you could slot these in lists easily. Maybe not competitive (3 shining spears on their own probably wont do much)
The only one that stands out is the farseers.
You really do not need any more than two unless 2 on bike and 2 on foot. I have more farseers than I could possibly field
Argive wrote: Do you need to get rid of any of these ?
I think you could slot these in lists easily. Maybe not competitive (3 shining spears on their own probably wont do much)
The only one that stands out is the farseers.
You really do not need any more than two unless 2 on bike and 2 on foot. I have more farseers than I could possibly field
I agree with everything here, plus don't know what changes a new codex might bring in the not too distant future. Probably after the Farseers Fire Dragons currently aren't that great if needing to drop another unit.
I've kept a log for my 9th edition games. The intent was to help track how objectives were impacting my army.
To date, I've played 29 games with 15-14 record.
Against Marines: 9-7
Non Marines: 6-7
Using pure Craftworld: 14-8
Using Craftworld/Harlequin support: 1-6
Two of my most recent losses were due to time. A local event went to 2 1/2 hour rounds and my first two games went to turn 4, ultimately costing both games. However, what it further cemented was how I p,at a Craftworld army.
In nearly every game, my opponents tend to lead at the end of turn 2-3, but turns 4-5 is where I make up the deficit. My strategy has been to stay at range and wear down the other army, then start capitalizing on objectives. Combine this with secondaries Engage on all Fronts and Deploy Scramblers, I tend to score fairly well on secondaries.
However, the list struggles significantly against large model count armies; Imperial Guard and Tyranids, both ran by the same opponent have thoroughly beaten me. Both of these armies had high model counts, great backline support fire , and high mobility (pregame moves, orders, psychic support, etc...). This limited my mobility, a key ability I utilize. Additionally, both armies do not care about Starcannons.
Another army that wrecked mine was an all Khorne army. While my firepower was significant, my mobility was drastically hindered based on the other army's speed. A huge takeaway from this kind of loss was acknowledging I need more screening ability.
The change to While We Stand We Fight and Bring It Down has helped tremendously. It gives me a third secondary I've score 10-15 points with while mitigating what used to be an auto include for my opponet.
I also learned that I suck using Craftworld/Harlequins together. I've been painting Harlequins and wanted to use them. However, both factions needed a lot of CP and I found myself not having the synergy with the detachment. Back to Craftworld until the Harlequins are painted. As a note, I rarely use an unpainted model which will have an impact on my army builds.
Ultimately, I've had to adjust my list slightly to add screening. My choice also happened to be obsec and with a points reduction and has worked ok in my past two games. Below is how my list has evolved.
Battalion
Farseer
Warlock Conclave (2) Protect/Jinx
Warlock (Warlord) Focus Will
4 x 5 Dire Avengers
1 x 8 Dire Avengers
1 x 15 Guardians
Getting a 50%+ win rate with Craftworlds is nothing to be sneezed at, good job.
It's intersting what you say about Star cannons. I've been moving away from star cannons in my lists, mostly because of Death guard.
I did some testing and, I think, the age of the flat 2/D3 damage seems to be on think ice.
I've been looking at single damage/D6 damage shots. So basically a lot of shuriken, missile launchers and pulse lasers.
Star cannons are still the kings of killing marines but I think hordes and Death guard love armies designed to kill marines.
I still think your list looks great though. Hopefully your modifications work well and you can report back with positive news.
I'm still not overly convinced on reverting Starcannons to Shuriken Cannons at this point (on vehicles). However, I adjusted the number of vehicles to increase the number of Troop choices in my army. I've gone from 3 to 6 Troop choices, which I feel offers me more flexibility.
With the change to DA power level, I put 4x5 DA in Strategic Reserve for 1 CP. Each Exarch has 2 Avenger Catapult and Shredding Fire. This adds quite a bit of flexibility to my army, especially when you factor in a unit of 3 War Walkers and Warp Spiders start in Reserve.
I've used Webway Assault for the Guardian unit and had players ensuring I didn't put over half my army in Reserve; 7 units looks like a lot to hold back. Again, horde armies will foil this as they can easily deny my ability to enter the board outside my own deployment edge or zone.
I'm hoping to play the new Death Guard this week as I'm very curious. If Mortarion is in a list, Jjjnx and Doom are critical and it would be worth exposing my psykers early to ensure they can get range.
My math skill is questionable. Can the following statistically eliminate Mortarion in a single round of shooting? Assume Jinx and Doom, Expert Crafters are in effect.
(# Shots x Strength, Damage, AP)
8 Dark Reapers, Rapid Fire ( 9 x S8, 3D, 2AP) [Reaper Launcher]
1 Lynx ( 6 x S9, 3D, 3AP) [Lynx Pulsar]
1 CHE (2 × S8, 3D, 3AP, 4 x S6, D3, 3AP)[Pulse Laser, 2 Star Cannons]
2 Hornet (8 x S7, 2D, 2AP) [Hornet Pulse Laser]
3 War Walkers (12 x S6, D3, 3AP)[Starcannon]
1 Wave Serpent (4 x S6, D3, 3AP)[Twin Starcannon]
Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for the complete banishment of things like star cannons just that I think a list needs greater variety of firepower, which yours does.
The reapers, Lynx and CHE pump out a good amount of heavier damage shots.
It's a bit lacking in horde clearance but you've got fast moving stuff that can block and screen and you've got a plan which is a good start.
I'm also not good enough at maths to work out the likelihood of you taking down Morty in a round but I'd guestimate with Doom and Jinx you should be fine, with Jinx being the key power. Making him take 5++ saves drastically improves the odds.
kingheff wrote: Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for the complete banishment of things like star cannons just that I think a list needs greater variety of firepower, which yours does.
The reapers, Lynx and CHE pump out a good amount of heavier damage shots.
It's a bit lacking in horde clearance but you've got fast moving stuff that can block and screen and you've got a plan which is a good start.
I'm also not good enough at maths to work out the likelihood of you taking down Morty in a round but I'd guestimate with Doom and Jinx you should be fine, with Jinx being the key power. Making him take 5++ saves drastically improves the odds.
No worries, I get what you're saying. As it stands, I truly do not think I can build an army that can handle hordes as well as compact, durable lists. As a result, I build on what I most reasonably expect to see on the table. Marines are still the most popular, followed by Chaos Marine variants in a distant second. Of the games, I've faced, IG, Tyranids, Craftworld, Sisters, Orks, Drukhari, Knights only a single time each. Of those, only two would be what I considered a horde army, and both crushed me. The others were competitive games. I'll accept I'll lose against the horde lists and just try to garner as many points as I can.
The Warlock Conclave (2 models) having Focus Will cast on them (Warlock who is Warlord with reroll trait) , then casting Jinx, use Concordance of Power has been fantastic. It is easy to stay out of Deny range and it does not require LOS. The Farseer, Warlock, and Warlock Conclave is my defacto HQ for my Battalion and a bargain at 250 points.
I'm tending to go for a warlock on bike, farseer and spiritseer combo these days. I make the spiritseer with warlord (shifting vector obvs) to cast jinx with the farseer using the strat for a +1 to cast with the warlock to cast focus will for a total of +3 for the farseer. Meaning Doom, Executioner and Smite are more likely to go off, with the D6 smite going off on an 8+ which is tasty.
I do really like the conclave with strat for jinx too though.
Offensively they're very good but they are fragile and expensive.
If you are able to fire and fade behind a ruin with the long range shot I think they're interesting but they are squishy and you have to have a plan if you want to get more than one round of shooting out of them.
Argive wrote: What are people's thoughts on Shadow specters?
I've played a few games with them and I've been pleasantly surprised. While I didn't think their 9E rules were bad, I did think their 8E rules were better. However, experience has shown that they're extremely good at killing any sort of infantry, so long as you can keep them alive. (I usually play with Expert Crafters and Masters of Concealment.)
With their two modes of fire Shadow Spectres can kill any sort of infantry. The dispersed shot tends to be overkill against its optimal targets (guardsmen and the like), so you often only need to fire a few blasts into light infantry to kill them off. The focussed shot is optimal for killing Marines. Pretty obvious stuff.
Since you can deploy the Spectres out of reserves and they had decent range you can usually pick and choose your targets. However, Spectres die quickly, even with a -1 to hit and 2+ save in cover. Try to block off LOS with terrain, and, ideally, place them so they can kill anything that can shoot back. The flank is usually the best place for them, as the edge of the board naturally limits attackers. The Spectres can knock off the enemy's flanking troops, and then work their way towards the center.
I find Doom to be an excellent power for Spectres, as it allows them to gun down tanks and monsters, or completely obliterate a horde of light infantry. Fortune can be good for some extra survivability, but it will only keep them alive against fairly feeble small arms fire. Fire and Fade is your best friend. They are good targets for Forwarned.
The Exarch does nothing, and neither does Shadow of Death rule.
Yes. The only restriction after disembarking is that they never count as stationary. Matchless Agility would fall under "Advance" as the type of move you would be permitted to do in the movement phase.
Has anyone run triple Wraithknights? After 30+ games I can nearly max out secondary objectives in a game, but struggle with primary. I nearly always play catch up on the primary mission and have been looking for ways I've not tried as of yet; triple Wraithknights. I've taken the elements that get my max secondary objectives and dumped my shooting elements for more combat/resilience to head to fight for the primary objectives.
Two sword and board and one Skathach who has an inbuilt deep strike ability. I think this list can still achieve near max points for Engage on all Fronts and Deploy Scramblers. I need to review the third secondary as I normally take While We Stand We Fight, which would not be a good choice for this kind of list as I plan for the Wraithknights to end up destroyed. Of note, Wraithknights won't degrade until they are at 6 wounds remaining; unsure if that is better than custom traits Savage Blades and Wrath of Dead (reroll 1's to hit and 1's to wound).
Note: Spiritseer should have Protect/Jinx, not Enhance/Drain.
Those Wraithknights would make up more than half of your overall points value!... I would drop down to one wraithknight and use the extra 600+ points for 4-6 additional units - consider warwalkers / a flyer perhaps if you're going for firepower? The main thing done by Wraithknights is carry big targets on their heads which (done correctly) can act as a great distraction while your smaller units which still pack a punch flood the field - no use if you have no units to do that.
Would certainly be interested to see this list in action but once those knights are down, you're high and dry with what you have left. It's a very 'all or nothing' list with little to no back up plan.
I think the whole point of the list is to have triple Knights if you scroll up a couple of comments lol
At least you get Craftworld trait benefits with 3. I think it might be a mistake taking Iyanden, maybe a shooty loadout for 2 and Masterful Shots and masters of concealment. Hunters of ancient relics if you want to go down the sword and board route
I remember someone way backwhen our codex dropped ran the maths and it turned out ulthwe 6+ fnp was better than iyanden effectively giving you 4 extra wounds per knight on average, which equals or surpasses that trait on most damage steps. Then again alaitoc was the goat back then and you don't have to roll for iyanden so it's no subject to lady luck.
I got to play three Wraithknights lasdt night. Overall, I lost the game against White Scars. Mission 23 is such a difficult mission for me. Combined with my opponent going second and taking Oath of the Moment and Domination, I already knew this was going to be an uphill battle. Add in Titan Hunter for a near maxed out secondary objective selection. Ultimately, I lost, but it was not the massive mismatch army vs army.
I took Engage on all Fronts and Deploy Scramblers as usual, but chose Assassinate for my third. I got 10 points for Engage on all Fronts and 10 points for Deploy Scramblers, but only 6 for Assassinate. This is pretty key to understand when playing 9th edition.
The primary was tied on rounds 2 and 3, but I screwed up target selection the top of turn 4 which allowed my opponent to get 15 points on the bottom of turn 4, then having the bottom of turn 5, he picked up an easy 15 points.
By the end, I still had a Skathach, 5 Hawks, Spiritseer, and Wave Serpent on the board; more than anticipated. I think the concept has some potential to provide a challenging game, but acknowledge the Codex is not geared for 9th edition and it will be difficult to match secondary objectives. Titan Hunter gives up way too many points and is still an auto take. For Marines, that is now two auto take secondaries (Oath is the second) that will yield 10-15 points each which are extremely easy to score. For myself, this will be the largest hurdle to overcome. The last FAQ fixed Bring It Down and While We Stand We Fight which are two secondaries I always chose netting me high secondaries; I use several vehicles instead of Wraithknights in those games.
Iyanden Craftworld is a bit of a trap, which is what I used. I will try Ulthwe for my next game. I've tweaked the list a bit to the following:
I wonder if making the Knights alaitoc might be a useful buff to their survivability? I know they're built for melee but if you can help reduce the danger from getting blasted if you lose first turn plus it may tempt your opponent to bring out their shooting units to try and get within the 12" range.
kingheff wrote: I wonder if making the Knights alaitoc might be a useful buff to their survivability? I know they're built for melee but if you can help reduce the danger from getting blasted if you lose first turn plus it may tempt your opponent to bring out their shooting units to try and get within the 12" range.
Due to how prolific reroll to hits are now and cap to hit modifiers is not considered as great anymore.
Masters of concealment for 2+ save is probably good, fateful divergence for reroll saves (a guy did this in a tournament in 8th I believe) and fortune would be good if not going Ulthwe.
The huge range of debuffs Runes of battle gives could be considered to help any sword and board Wraithknights
Strong shooting armies certainly show up at the events I attend, but they are surprisingly few in number.
One item I really need to learn is how to properly screen out the Wraithknights. As an example, White Scars charging while in assault doctrine provides +1 damage to weapons. Bladeguard and Terminators can totally wreck a Wraithknight if not careful.
I'm certainly going to get in more games to better understand the strengths and weaknesses. Until a new Codex drops, it's been fun so trying out so many builds. This is my 4th different build so far and, initially, it was not as bad as it looked on paper.
Would you consider playing units of 12 harlequin on foot (with minimal upgrades, just as bodies) to score objectives on your opponents side and screen the wraith knights?
I certainly would not rule them out. I'd been debating what could be a better second detachment to accompany the Wraithknights; Harlequins certainly are an option. I'll give it a review and also compare to what I actually own as I have much less painted Harlequins.
Was chatting via discord server and someone pushed out the idea of mortal wound spam. Mortal Wounds will further become popular in my opinion as every new Codex has some capability to mitigate mortal wounds.
With that in mind, I began looking at some 8th edition ideas and how it would translate into 9th. In my opinion, it may have potential. LD buffs and debuffs combined with importrant charactrer auras layered on top of gaining secondary points make Mind War look quite interesting.
The idea is to snipe characters, especially those who want to get to the center of the board or those who want to get into assault. Mind War expressly is designed for this. However, on its own, it is pretty mediocre. However, let's add in some stuff that is usable in game while acting as a combat multiplier for Mind War.
LEADERSHIP DEBUFF
Horrify -1
Hemlock -2
Shadow Spectre -1
Shadow Spectre Phoenix Lord -1 (And will stack with the Shadow Spectres)
This does not factor Harlequin or Drukhari as this is a Craftworld tactics page. (Harlequins have access to an easy -3 LD, so food for thought).
With this in mind, what is relatively easy to pull off from the above? Those that require the Craftworld player to simply place their own models close together.
-Swooping Hawks
-Inspiring Leader
Which can be a bit more tricky?
-Embolden, but I don't imagine many opponents willing to shut that power down. Seer Council can make for an easier cast as well.
-Hemlock getting within 12". Personally, I don't think It will be difficult based upon the games I've played, but the possibility exists.
-Horrify could be challenging. I'd likely have the Hemlock cast it. It's WC7, no bonuses, but is not overly game breaking if it fails.
-Shadow Spectres. Great movement and can Advance. Takes some setting up, but you just need one model to get within 6".
-Shadow Spectre Phoenix Lord. I think this is the one model you auto advance 6" to get in range. He has the fly keyword and solid shooting. This and the Hemlock could create a failed LD aura to degrade those other hard units near the characters.
What I think is likely
Farseer LD9 +1(Hawks), +1 (Inspiring Leader), +2 (Embolden with a Focus Will or Seer Council assist) LD 13
I will assume Horrify failed and the Shadow Spectre unit could not get in requisite range. That is a difference of 7 or 6; pretty good potential for mortal wound sniping of characters.
Most optimal: Farseer LD13.
Opponent LD 4 or 5
Even the worst roll result (you roll a 1, opponent rolls a 6, you still score 4 or 3 mortal wounds; if reversed, you score 14 or 13 mortal wounds).
Below is an all comer list showing how it could all fit into an army while retaini g a lot of what still works in the Codex. The HQ section is something I've used for over 20 games now and has become my defacto standard which is why I had to utilize a Patrol detachment to get the Shadow Spectre Phoenix Lord . I did not place the Shadow Spectres in the list, but if I wanted, I would drop 2 War Walkers.
This list would most likely play Engage on all Fronts, Deploy Scramblers, and the one that nets 3 points for every character destroyed.
I think its a neat idea but I jus dont see it working in practice. Getting all the pieces in place to pin that character is even harder than having multiple sniper units trying to get a bead on the same dude. I was trying conventional sniping back in 8th as well as mind war but it just never really came together in a meaningful way.
Also, whats the reasoning on taking guardians with platform over storm guardians? Normally the whole idea of platform is to soak up damage and tank small arms fire to protect the guardians bodies for as long as possible. so why bother putting an expensive heavy weapon on the platform if its likely the first thing to die int he squad? A squad of 20 storm guardians would be much cheaper if all they are meant to do is screen and die with protect + celestial shield to eat as much fire power as possible while holding objectives.
On another note. How much do you guys think dark reapers are overcosted now ?
It looks like I can get 7 spectres for the cost of 5 reapers.. I know they are not the same thing as spectres have a lesser Str but better AP. With doom usually going on the key target the smaller str isint that much of an issue but their duality with being able to mow down infantry as well and great mobility seems like the better unit. I suppose the upside of reapers is their ability to embark on transports with fire and fade (however I expect that to be FAQ'd out)
Craftworld Attribute . *Custom Craftworld*: Expert Crafters, Hunters of Ancient Relics
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
+ HQ [13 PL, 250pts] +
Autarch Skyrunner [6 PL, 110pts]: Laser Lance [5pts], Peerless Agility, Ride the Wind, The Path of Command, Twin Shuriken Catapult . The Phoenix Gem: Remnant of Glory
Irillyth [7 PL, 140pts]: Reaper of Souls (Aura), Shade of Twilight, Shadow of Death (Aura), Shadow Spectres Phoenix Lord, Spear of Starlight, Spectre Holo-field
I get to try it out tonight and will get to see how easy or difficult it can be to get things in the right position. The Hemlock is costing me an assault capability. The Brightlance and Hemlock cost as much as two Wraithseers. If Mind War is too difficult, it can be a relatively easy fix. Nearly every army I face has powerful close combat characters which tend to push aggressively toward midboard and further which is a big reason I think Mind War will have great utility.
I've played about 15 games post FAQ with the Reapers and they perform exceptionally well. If they FAQ it later, then I'll look at tweaking the list. These models were already painted sitting in foam waiting for an excuse to try them again. The AP2, choice of D2 or D3, and ignore cover save is very significant in nearly every game I play. But, Fire and Fade gives them longevity and they generally ladt the entire game, which is a lot more shooting than prior to FAQ.The Spectres have a solid option and their Focus Fire would be a great option in my meta. I've only recently began looking at them, but do admit I'll likely not use them to replace Dark Reapers.
You make a valid point regarding the Guardians. I'm a bit on the fence using Guardians vs Storm Guardians. For many games, they arrive via Webway, but there are some where I need to screen on turn 1. The Brightlance is overly expensive and the points can be utilized elsewhere. The Guardians do tend to go away by turn 3.
Overall, I like the list presented minus the lack of objective secured. Over the months, I've had to increase how many I generally take. I used to take a minimum amount, but now I use 5-6 regularly for added flexibility to contest primary objectives.
I tweaked the list slightly and will post thoughts post game.
War Walkers [12 PL, 210pts]
. War Walker: Explodes, Power Field, Scout Vehicle, Starcannon, Starcannon
. War Walker: Explodes, Power Field, Scout Vehicle, Starcannon, Starcannon
. War Walker: Explodes, Power Field, Scout Vehicle, Starcannon, Starcannon
+ Flyer +
Hemlock Wraithfighter [12 PL, 240pts]: 0. Smite, 2. Embolden/Horrify, Airborne, Crash and Burn, Hard to Hit, 2x Heavy D-scythe, Mindshock Pod, Psyker (Hemlock), Spirit Stones, Wings of Khaine
Craftworld Attribute: Ulthwe: Foresight of the Damned
Detachment Command Cost [-2CP]
+ HQ +
Irillyth [7 PL, 140pts]: Reaper of Souls (Aura), Shade of Twilight, Shadow of Death (Aura), Shadow Spectres Phoenix Lord, Spear of Starlight, Spectre Holo-field
Argive wrote: I think its a neat idea but I jus dont see it working in practice. Getting all the pieces in place to pin that character is even harder than having multiple sniper units trying to get a bead on the same dude. I was trying conventional sniping back in 8th as well as mind war but it just never really came together in a meaningful way.
Also, whats the reasoning on taking guardians with platform over storm guardians? Normally the whole idea of platform is to soak up damage and tank small arms fire to protect the guardians bodies for as long as possible. so why bother putting an expensive heavy weapon on the platform if its likely the first thing to die int he squad? A squad of 20 storm guardians would be much cheaper if all they are meant to do is screen and die with protect + celestial shield to eat as much fire power as possible while holding objectives.
On another note. How much do you guys think dark reapers are overcosted now ?
It looks like I can get 7 spectres for the cost of 5 reapers.. I know they are not the same thing as spectres have a lesser Str but better AP. With doom usually going on the key target the smaller str isint that much of an issue but their duality with being able to mow down infantry as well and great mobility seems like the better unit. I suppose the upside of reapers is their ability to embark on transports with fire and fade (however I expect that to be FAQ'd out)
Craftworld Attribute
. *Custom Craftworld*: Expert Crafters, Hunters of Ancient Relics
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
+ HQ [13 PL, 250pts] +
Autarch Skyrunner [6 PL, 110pts]: Laser Lance [5pts], Peerless Agility, Ride the Wind, The Path of Command, Twin Shuriken Catapult
. The Phoenix Gem: Remnant of Glory
Irillyth [7 PL, 140pts]: Reaper of Souls (Aura), Shade of Twilight, Shadow of Death (Aura), Shadow Spectres Phoenix Lord, Spear of Starlight, Spectre Holo-field
In short, your statement was right on the mark. Something on paper is much different when trying to apply on the tabletop. I played against an Adeptus Custodes list which was ironically geared to defend against psychic abilities via an Assassin, 4+ deny the witch stratagem, and a Shild Captain with a deny the witch ability. Turn 1 actually had me failing nearly all psychic powers on its own. Turn 2+ was a combination of failing, denied, or being within the 18" bubble of the Assassin and ultimately failing due to the -2 to cast. Add in that the Assassin could never be targeted by psychic powers further hindered the entire psychic phase. Then, consider scoring secondary objectives while trying to ensure to avoid many threat zones as Custodes shooting and assault eliminates units quickly.
Ultimately, I got 10 points for Deploy Scramblers, 12 points for Engage on all Fronts, and 15 for While We Stand We Fight. However, I only got 30 on Primary which resulted in a loss 76-83. The Hemlock, being one of the While We Stand We Fight models, had to be used to avoid units which could easily destroy it, while also assisting in Engage on all Fronts, one of the few secondaries where an Aircraft can contribute. My Hawks needed to be utilized more for Deploy Scramblers than the leadership buff. As such they performed that action in my deployment zone and the enemy deployment zone. Another non contributer towards Mind War.
On the plus side, a 5++ actually helped on my Hawks. Mobility against Custodes was key and the game came down to the last few dice rolls on the bottom of turn 5 to determine the game. However, Mind War could not get properly set up against this army. Going forward, I think I'll only look at Mind War as an option if I am taking two Farseers. One Farseer, even Eldrad, had other abilities desperately in need and I felt hindered with the absence of Guide (And Expert Crafters).
Final note, I altered my list slightly and played a pure Ulthwe list. It made me appreciate just how good the custom Craftworld traits really are and will be firmly using them in the future. I keep wanting to venture out trying new stuff, but a lot of it just lowers the capability of the army in 9th edition.
My next venture will be less change to the core of the army, but enough to add in 5 Wraithguard with D Scythes. It's another unit I've not used in a few years and want to put them back on the table.
I'm a big fan of that 5++ on the hawks but I normally used them for scramblers. Before scramblers, I liked their screening potential with the malus to charge.
I really like that you're getting the opportunity to go out and play test lists and the like (and somewhat jealous) given the pandemic. I'm dying to get playing in person again.
I had hopes I could build toward a solid ability to snipe characters, but it did turn out a bit too much to build towards and play the mission. The 5++ on the Hawks were for when I had little choice but to expose them for Deploy Scramblers. I spent a CP to keep the +1 LD ability and pick up the 5++. Since the Mind War combo did not work out very well, it is a CP saved for future games.
I've got a fairly large collection of Craftworld and want to play some of the stuff sitting in foam. Unfortunately, it keeps looking like a lot will stay in foam until we get a new Codex. On the plus, I get to run Craftworld vehicles as I really like the aesthetic.
Would taking asurmen and a bunch of scorpions, fire dragons and banshees with an odd protect be a meme list or could it work?
I was thinking about running an aspect centric force but that 6" bubble of invuln is just so tiny and protect would only boost one of them as well as no longer beeing able to stack conceal/ LFR.
Asurmen and or Irilith with specters interests me. Used to run maugun ra but irilyth just seems so much better with his invuln and dakka.
I've run Asurmen before, but not enough to have solid advice. I was not impressed with the aura as it is small as you mentioned. Aspect Warriors didn't quite have the durability though I never ran Shadow Spectres with it. An invul, -1 to hit, and Fortune could make for an interesting mobile shooting platform.
I'm working on Irrilyth now after reviewing the FW units again recently. I've seen on a discord and FB page Shadow Spectres seem to be gaining popularity in usage.
Going in close range to fight for objectives is an area I've been struggling with. With your idea, maybe Asurmen, Scorpions and a Wraithseers or two? What gets through Deathwing, Bladeguard, or Blightlord Terminators?
Sarigar wrote: I've run Asurmen before, but not enough to have solid advice. I was not impressed with the aura as it is small as you mentioned. Aspect Warriors didn't quite have the durability though I never ran Shadow Spectres with it. An invul, -1 to hit, and Fortune could make for an interesting mobile shooting platform.
Yeah I loved my specters in 8th. But whenever I consider doing protect + fortune+ conceal / LFR. I always come up with the same conclusion: shining spears(Wraithguard/ Wraithblades in a pinch if one doesnt have acess to spear models) or are just much darn better targets for those buffs. Every time.. :(
I'm working on Irrilyth now after reviewing the FW units again recently. I've seen on a discord and FB page Shadow Spectres seem to be gaining popularity in usage.
Going in close range to fight for objectives is an area I've been struggling with. With your idea, maybe Asurmen, Scorpions and a Wraithseers or two? What gets through Deathwing, Bladeguard, or Blightlord Terminators?
I think you just have to shoot them with a bucket load of shuriken... and MW.. A unit of guardians or a buffed up unit of shining spears would just mince them with a Doom. Thrown in a jinx and its really going to be nasty. And I say this because those shuriken can just shoot everything else too with a doom.
With CC I think wraithblades out of the webway/slow boating quickening could do the work as the next best thing.
Wraithseers/wraithlords/Autarchs have the same problem of capping out at 4 attacks and the big wraiths can just be shot before ever making it to combat. With taking hunters of relics you can mitigate that when fighting for objetcives. I'm interested in trying out the wraithseers with ghostwalks/witch strikes instead of a smite. 5+D3 damage weapons would kill anything but at the same time I feel like tis a bit overkill unless you are facing mortarion.
I think spears are just so much better because they can shoot and then finish off on the charge and are super mobile. But the lack of invuln in combat means if they wiff they wiff big as usually there will be nothing left of them if they cant kill whatever they charged. However. Potentially could run them with the 6++ trait. with a protect (which you will give them anyway) they would have a 5++ in combat. Would mean having a dedicated detachment for that though as you are likely going to be be wanting that trait only on them.
Asurmen or AOK seem like they could do the work but you could just take an entire unit of spears or< insert shooty unit >; instead.
The lack of invulnerable save is has been a big let down for me regarding Shining Spears. In my games, they are great until the inevitable counter assault occurs and they crumble. But, I also have not used Asurmen in conjunction. I don't use Spears to assault on turn 1, so maybe that is an answer to have something with enough durability to contest objectives? Great close range shooting, solid assault, and with Asumen, in invulnerable save in combat. Good food for thought.
Sarigar wrote: The lack of invulnerable save is has been a big let down for me regarding Shining Spears. In my games, they are great until the inevitable counter assault occurs and they crumble. But, I also have not used Asurmen in conjunction. I don't use Spears to assault on turn 1, so maybe that is an answer to have something with enough durability to contest objectives? Great close range shooting, solid assault, and with Asumen, in invulnerable save in combat. Good food for thought.
The trouble is I feel like asurmen wiuld be too slow to keep up with them. It could work IMO but it means you are sacrificing theor mobility. However, You could use that to your advantage.. The theory is you would auto advance Asurmen first out of a transport and then leapfrom the spears over him to capture the mid board near asurmen and protect+fortune+LFR them. (with skilled rider) along with a wave of chaff storm guardians and maybe. Then keep another unit of spears back for the third wave with asurmen being the anchor.
Dunno if it would be worth it though, Hes just so darn expensive.
All theory, but I think a lot depends where I want the Spears to go. Asurmen won't work if the Spears are going across the table. It's more likely they are going towards a single objective on my half of the board or center table. With Asumen in tow, and placing the obligatory Protect/Fortune on the Spears, they would be much more durable in assault. But, it will certainly be tricky in the movement/charge phases.
Asurmen is expensive, which has been a difficult barrier.
Trying out something slightly different. I found by taking Fateful Divergeance and Protect in an army, I effectively will have a Shining Spear Exarch with a 2++ save with two rerolls (Fateful and 1 CP). I'll set this unit up to avoid assault to sit on an objective and act as a bait shooting unit. I'm trying to find ways to keep the primary score close as I can achieve high secondary scores.
To keep things clear for my opponents, the different Craftworld traits are distinguishable via how the units are painted. Unfortunately, my Lynx is painted in a certain color which is why it is in the less optimized detachment (though, it still has Expert Crafters). I've also added a small element for assault, which I tend to skimp on. Finally, Iryllith as I really like the extra bit of powerful shooting and mobility he brings.
I got in a couple games on Sunday against Dark Angels and Salamanders. However, I would not consider my opponents to be very experienced players, so it was difficult to really assess the efficacy of a few key changes to the build. But, from it, I was able to further refine the list as I did like having some assault capability. Things I did notice is to not upgrade Storm Guardians with special weapons; waste of points. I realigned psychic powers to what had a better flow with the army.
I'll also dropping the Lynx for a bit. Ive played about 15 games with it and have lost it 2, maybe 3 times. It really is a solid platform, but would like to vary the list up a bit. The Banshees are in the list simply because I painted the new models and like the new kits.
War Walkers [12 PL, 210pts]
. War Walker: Explodes, Power Field, Scout Vehicle, Starcannon, Starcannon
. War Walker: Explodes, Power Field, Scout Vehicle, Starcannon, Starcannon
. War Walker: Explodes, Power Field, Scout Vehicle, Starcannon, Starcannon
I like him while supporting the Wraithblades. My Storm Guardians, Wraithblades, Wraithseer , and Spiritseer all moved together supporting one another. Opponents had to prioritize what to shoot. I like having another caster and Empower was a fairly good power.
However, neither of the games I used him in were overly competitive. I'll try him out again tomorrow morning and see how he fares, especially with the Craftworld traits assigned.
Sarigar wrote: I like him while supporting the Wraithblades. My Storm Guardians, Wraithblades, Wraithseer , and Spiritseer all moved together supporting one another. Opponents had to prioritize what to shoot. I like having another caster and Empower was a fairly good power.
However, neither of the games I used him in were overly competitive. I'll try him out again tomorrow morning and see how he fares, especially with the Craftworld traits assigned.
Thanks for the feedback. Im keen to hear how they do. I love the unit and was runing at least 2 most games in late 8th. Post 9e Imperial armour I was very disappointed in their changes.
I'm thinking about making a list where they are the smite train and hide them behind terrain blasting with d cannons. I'm not sure if giving up smite is worth it for any of the other powers. Was considering taking witch strike/ ghostwalk but just dont know. Sadly I just going off theoretical.
@sarigar I really like your list except for the dark reapers and the lack of doom. Doom is better than guide most of the time
. The dark reapers have some reallly bad match ups and I find that they hardly make their points back by the time you factor in their whole combo. 280 + 170 + 135 so 585 plus one CP a turn for fire and fade, it just never adds up. Even if you kill 5 intercessors every turn you still don’t make your points back. It used to be good up until 9th but the toughness of everything makes them really not all that good.
I've played about 15 games now post FAQ. The challenge I found with Reapers and Hornet Pulse Lasers are the AP2. To overcome it, I've used a Warlock Conclave to cast Jinx at 36"; add in Masterful Shots,/Expert Crafters and they have been fine. Ive lost the unit only twice. They are also one of my WWSWF units in which I get 10-15 points nearly every game. (Lynx and War Walkers being the other two units).
The lack of Doom is deliberate. The Farseer rarely goes forward. I get better utility using Guide and Fortune. I can spend 2 CP in a clutch shooting phase to get reroll 1's to wound for all units within 6" of the Farseer. Combined with Expert Crafters, I've not missed Doom. It keeps the Farseer and Warlock Conclave safe for the most part. The Farseer will generally try to be kept out outside of 24" for as long as possible. And in truth, my opponents always rate the Conclave as the real psychic threat they hate dealing with.
I've been experimenting with various lists the last few weeks. I ended upmtweaking the list just a bit more just to see if I've gotten a balance of shooting and an ability to contest the primary objectives, which has been the biggest challenge. Adding in some assault capability is where I think the challenge really lies.
I keep making slight tweaks as I look at the collection and see what models I've got painted and try something new. I'm hoping I'll find that sweet spot I'm comfortable with. Below is what I'm running tonight. Hoping it will work as I've got a one day event the end of this month and a two day event the end of next month. I'd like to get games in to feel comfortable with as many scenarios as I can prior.
Doom is 24", which I find to be plenty. I don't get to whack it on any unit I want, but it does amazing work against assault and bully units contesting the midfield. They can't stay out of range of it, even if my Farseer is tucked away in my backfield.
@Sarigar I really like that list, Doom is probably the best psychic power in the game and you're brave for not using it. Although I can see how you've been gettin around it, I just find it too good not to bring.
I'm also loving that folks are seeing the value in a good conclave. I think a 36" restrain or jinx can be pure gold in the right circumstances.
I got to play last night against a Grey Knights player. Very different with the amount in regards to opposing psychic abilities. Overall, I won the game in no small part to being able to score and contest on primary objectives. In one of the rare games, I got 45 points on primary, while still able to get 30 points in secondaries.
The Wraithblade unit was very good. Ironically, I never got Protect cast on the unit, but did manage Fortune most turns; staying out of Deny the Witch range. I learned Grey Knights have a lot more deny attempts than I can cast as well as bonuses to deny. By the end of the game, 1 Wraithblade survived. They got into assault on the central objective on turn 2 there They stayed. Very solid unit. Use of Enervate and Fortune were critical in their survivability. Savage Blades and Hunters of Ancient Relics added a lot of hits in assault. I launched an assault and got the bonus to reroll '1'. Then, my opponent would assault them, triggering reroll of '1' again. Very good combo and will look at the potential of adding Enhance.
I liked the Wraithseer, but felt the Starcannon was mediocre. Starcannons need Expert Crafters as I would not put Guide on the Wraithseer. It made it all the way to my opponents 'home' objective before falling. It moved up with the Wraithblades which created a solid assault element. Ultimately, I will likely downgrade the Stacannon to a Shuriken Cannon or just eliminate the weapon altogether.
The Falcon was ok. Nothing fantastic, but a clear threat to Paladins ultimately creating target priority challenges.
The Reapers, again, were the big threat. In turn one, my opponent thought he could weather a round of shooting from them, then lost 4 Paladins in one volley. My opponent rated them as the top tier target and once I had to use Fire and Fade on another unit, he focussed everything he could on the Reapers. The last one failed morale on turn 4. Most of the time, they wounded on 2 or 3, and Expert Crafter was generally enough for my reroll to wound.
The D Cannons really did little until turn 5. I played them a bit passive in order screen out deep strike. On turn 5, they got to fire killing the last 3 Paladins. Expert Crafters with these are scarily efficient. Just need to hope to not roll a '1' for damage.
The one unit I was disappointed in was the Spiritseer. I could not get the model close enough to get his ability to work. He may be the model that needs Falchou Wing. Not sure if he is worth it. Need another game.
War Walkers all in separate units were very useful. It upped their efficiency by way of Expert Crafter as well as added flexibility for coming in from reserves. This was a solid change I actually never tried before.
Overall, I felt a bit lacking in long range shooting, but the exchange to get assault capability was well worth it. I've got a squad of Scorpions I'm going to fit into the list and see what kind of utility I can get.
Sarigar wrote: I got to play last night against a Grey Knights player. Very different with the amount in regards to opposing psychic abilities. Overall, I won the game in no small part to being able to score and contest on primary objectives. In one of the rare games, I got 45 points on primary, while still able to get 30 points in secondaries.
The Wraithblade unit was very good. Ironically, I never got Protect cast on the unit, but did manage Fortune most turns; staying out of Deny the Witch range. I learned Grey Knights have a lot more deny attempts than I can cast as well as bonuses to deny. By the end of the game, 1 Wraithblade survived. They got into assault on the central objective on turn 2 there They stayed. Very solid unit. Use of Enervate and Fortune were critical in their survivability. Savage Blades and Hunters of Ancient Relics added a lot of hits in assault. I launched an assault and got the bonus to reroll '1'. Then, my opponent would assault them, triggering reroll of '1' again. Very good combo and will look at the potential of adding Enhance.
I liked the Wraithseer, but felt the Starcannon was mediocre. Starcannons need Expert Crafters as I would not put Guide on the Wraithseer. It made it all the way to my opponents 'home' objective before falling. It moved up with the Wraithblades which created a solid assault element. Ultimately, I will likely downgrade the Stacannon to a Shuriken Cannon or just eliminate the weapon altogether.
The Falcon was ok. Nothing fantastic, but a clear threat to Paladins ultimately creating target priority challenges.
The Reapers, again, were the big threat. In turn one, my opponent thought he could weather a round of shooting from them, then lost 4 Paladins in one volley. My opponent rated them as the top tier target and once I had to use Fire and Fade on another unit, he focussed everything he could on the Reapers. The last one failed morale on turn 4. Most of the time, they wounded on 2 or 3, and Expert Crafter was generally enough for my reroll to wound.
The D Cannons really did little until turn 5. I played them a bit passive in order screen out deep strike. On turn 5, they got to fire killing the last 3 Paladins. Expert Crafters with these are scarily efficient. Just need to hope to not roll a '1' for damage.
The one unit I was disappointed in was the Spiritseer. I could not get the model close enough to get his ability to work. He may be the model that needs Falchou Wing. Not sure if he is worth it. Need another game.
War Walkers all in separate units were very useful. It upped their efficiency by way of Expert Crafter as well as added flexibility for coming in from reserves. This was a solid change I actually never tried before.
Overall, I felt a bit lacking in long range shooting, but the exchange to get assault capability was well worth it. I've got a squad of Scorpions I'm going to fit into the list and see what kind of utility I can get.
I was wondering why the wraithseer isn't expert crafters..
I always found the spiritseer to be very sub par... His aura NEVER works IMO. Even If he gets close enough he's easy pickings for literally any unit bar a vehicle as he's so squishy. I think a skyrunner Autarch would work better in your list then the spirit seer. You could keep him back to support the backline fire power T1/2 and then swoosh him forward to join the wraithblades and buff them up as well as bringing his attacks to bear.
There were two reasons for the Wraithseer not being in the Expert Crafters detachment
1. Utilize assault capability to support Wraithblades.
2. Paint scheme. I ensure there is no confusion for my opponent when looking at the models to determine which Craftworld they belong to. This sometimes can create a less optimal option for myself, but my games tend to be more enjoyable. This was a real pet peeve of mijne in previous editions when multiple detachments were more prevalent.
I am looking at the Autarch as an option as well as looking at the feasibility of putting the Farseer and Warlock on bikes.
Sarigar wrote: There were two reasons for the Wraithseer not being in the Expert Crafters detachment
1. Utilize assault capability to support Wraithblades.
2. Paint scheme. I ensure there is no confusion for my opponent when looking at the models to determine which Craftworld they belong to. This sometimes can create a less optimal option for myself, but my games tend to be more enjoyable. This was a real pet peeve of mijne in previous editions when multiple detachments were more prevalent.
I am looking at the Autarch as an option as well as looking at the feasibility of putting the Farseer and Warlock on bikes.
I find expert crafters really useful for big wraiths in assault. I used to run wraithlords with just fists and shuri catapults and one heavy.
With shuri canon you could advance them and still get some dakka. But I prefer holding them back for shooting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've tweaked the list slightly based on the feedback. The Autarch Skyrunner and Expert Crafters made more sense to me than Savage Blades. I've spread the shooting threats around a bit to make target selection a bit more difficult for my opponents. Ive opted for Doom, but will definitely need to be careful on positioning. It may also be a good time tomswap some psychic powers around as manynare getting used to me using Jinx at 36". This list can still perform the three objectives I play: WWSWF, Deploy Scramblers and Engage on all Fronts.
Can your Expert Crafters, Masterful Shots detachment psyker buff the other units outside of their own crwaftowlrd as they are different craftworld?? I vaguely remember an FAQ about this and having to change up my lists..
Played against Necrons with Silent King and the Void Dragon today. I really enjoyed looking at a well painted Necron army and the Silent King makes me very excited for future Craftworld model releases.
This was only the second time playing Necrons, and like the first time, it was a custom Dynasty allowing a free 6" move and the entire army having objective secured.
Use of Forewarning was important to mitigate some shooting as I was going second. My opponent got a bit aggressive moving Scarabs up. This allowed me to get a turn 1 charge off with the help of Headstrong and Ghostwalk. Wraithblades backed up by an Autarch (and Fortune) was really crippling for my opponent. In turn 2 he shot up the Storm Guardians, but expended a lot more shooting than expected due to Celestial Shield. The Yncarne was then repositioned at the Storm Guardian position. My opponent would not risk an 11" charge at the Yncarne ( I would have at least tried). That meant turn 2 psychics, shooting, and then the Yncarne charging killed the Silent King in a single turn. This is where most people disagree with me, but being able to put Jinx on something like the Silent King fro 36" away is absolutely game changing.
I'd seen on another thread the negativity and bashing of Craftworld armies. One comment was that they lack mobility. I cannot understand that line of thinking based on games I play. I take Engage on all Fronts every game and get 10-12 points every time. If you look at the far end of the table in the picture, this was the bottom of turn 3. There are War Walkers, Guardians, and out of sight, Striking Scorpions. The Necrons pushed too far forward and allowed me to hit them at multiple fronts, ultimately losing him the game.
Below is the list and aside from some minor tweaks, this has been one of the most entertaining army lists I played with quite a bit of synergy. It plays all phases of the game and competes on objectives. This latter part is important as I got 40 primaries this game and 45 the previous game with a somewhat similar army.
The Yncarne is a model I'm excited to further explore. The one teleport move was essentially as 23" move in which my opponent had no way to respond. We discussed the rules pre game to avoid 'gotcha' moments, but my opponent indicated this single move changed the entire game. That was very revealing.
Excellent analysis as ususal. Im glad you liked the autarch in. I think he is great coz he can synergise with a lot of stuff both backline and then go agressive on the front line.
Did you webway the wraithblades or walk them up theboard?
Also the guardian celestial shield thing is great isint it. Im glad the pt reduction kicked in and made them somewhat viable. Stormies are only 1pt more than they were in 8th. I think it works even better with ulthwe/ storm guardians and unlocks Eldrad in theory.
I think the fear most people have is that the warlock conclave can be picked off very easilyu by things like mortars. In this match up it was fine but against LOS ignoring weaponary they are kind of a liability. I almost always juts opt for deploying my psykers more aggressively and into the midbaord to counter the shorter range and often cats protect over jinx. This usually doubles up the guardian bait as they will try to remove the guardians to remove the screen to get at the farseer, if just screen removal is not enticing enough prospect.
Im not familiar with the Lynx but I see you feature it in a lot of lists. Is it really that good ? I will need to look its rules up.
Also the yncarne mechanics is very good but also very easy to misplay hence people not playing it. (I just havent got around to building an painting the model lol). You can really make the opponent pay for wrong target priority but at the same time leave yourself open if you mess up.
The mobility that the Yncarne brings is not coming from CWE though. I think part of the issue is people dont like DS as a mobiltty. Things like shining spears and vypers are plenty fast but youre not going to see normal windriders on the board and war walkers are pretty static once deployed. Not being able to advance and fire shuri canons on vehicles sucks. The vehicle mobility and heavy weapon fire issue was resolved for everyone. I guess part of the sentiment is the Movement speed advantage isn't that all that great, and there is no defence boost to speak of at all for moving fast which is more of a lore to table top rule conversion gripe...
Thanks for the feedback. I've been playing a lot of different units in 9th since we do not have a new Codex yet. At least in tournaments, Craftworlds have not been the Codex to beat, and I've had a lot of fun discovering what can work this edition. I do think the Codex is lacking a bit for 9th as I could get a 4-1 record in previous editions to now finishing at 3-2 in which one loss was an utter blowout. It is only a difference of one game, but I'm finding the games against non Marine armies more difficult. The army is harder to play right now as opposed to 6th, 7th, or 8th edition.
I started the Wraithblades on the table. Assessing Necron shooting and the ability to use Phantasm, I was comfortable having them start on the board. I think use of Webway will be a game time decision.
I tend to include at least one squad of Guardians in my armies. I've got 60 or so painted and still find uses for them. They always end up destroyed, but that use of Celestial Shield burns up more of my opponent's resources. That is the real key. It happened again yesterday. I think the trick is to only put one unit on the table at a time to ensure opponents can only target a unit with Celestial Shield.
The Conclave has a real problem with LOS ignoring weapons. What I've discovered is my opponent is challenged with target priority. Death Guard and IG have great no LOS shooting, but my opponents are reluctant to shoot at an 80 point unit when looking at the other stuff on the table. This is a hard metric to measure, but I really think they get ignored because of this reason. I Will try a game on Wednesday to challenge that theory. I will use 4 in a Conclave to be able to cast Protect and Jinx with a +2 or +3. With 4, it gets pricy at 160 points and folks may be more willing to direct resources at them.
Regarding mobility, I acknowledge folks are not referring to the Yncarne, and I could easily not mentioned that model. The game changes over editions. Craftworld has the mobility, but not necessarily as a movement stat, although they are higher than most other armies. I find it to be a baffling complaint when reading about how bad Craftworld armies are.
I painted the Yncarne over a year ago and really like the model. I just want to use it and am excited to really learn the ins and outs of it. Rule of cool and I'm not too sussed over having the most efficient build as we are working with an early 8th edition Codex playing 9th edition. When the new Codex drops, the Army design will most likely change as well.
The Lynx was an eBay rescue this year after the now FW book came out. This was a good combination of cool visual aesthetics and solid rules. In my opinion, the Lynx is a mostly 9 edition model. The Lynx Pulsar is 48", S9, AP3, D3 at 48" on a 16 wound tank that has the fly keyword and a 5++. In today's game, there is enough terrain to block LOS to it. If I don't have Reapers, this makes for a solid Fire and Fade recipient. I think it is aggressively pointed. I recommend reviewing the rules at a minimum.
And the list will morph again once the Shadow Spectres arrive. They were finally available again on the FW site, so the purchase was made.
I’m strongly considering using three Wraithlords with flamers and no shoulder weapons (expert crafters, ancient relics) as mid field objective “brawlers”. I don’t expect them to survive even past turn two, but if they get a few swings in that’s fantastic and they will absorb some firepower to remove. Their role would be to advance or charge to midfield objectives ASAP. The balance of my army is shootier than it really out to be for 9th edition, to give context.
Has anyone else experimented with this? Pros? Cons? I know it’s outside the usual “optimal” norm for these units, but I have sixteen other S8 weapons in my shooting elements, along with plenty of S6 shots.
Might as well stick a star cannon on them. Its only 15 pts.
Ive played with 3x wraithlords and 2-3 wraithseers in 8th a lot.
They are tough but any dedicated AT weapon will mulch them due to a paltry 3+.. The key is to use terrain to make it hard to focus fire on one and also give more urgent targets. Like a wave serpent packed with wraith blades/ psykers will draw more AT fire then a wraithlord.
You should also prioritize AT platforms to make hurting them harder.
However, once they start degrading its very meh.. I played them as backline platforms with masters of concealment giving them a 2+ for more durability
The closest I've used is two Wraithseers. I liked the T8 and ability for additional assault. However, having a 5++ and not degrading were two key factors choosing them over Wraithlords. Argive is spot on regarding terrain as 9th edition makes it easier for me to keep those models out of LOS.
A lot also depends on what else is in your army. For example, if the rest of your list is jetbikes and infantry, it makes things a bit easier for your opponent when choosing what to target with the anti tank styled weapons.
If you can move around some S8 weapon options and you using Expert Crafters, placing a Brightlance on one or more of them could have merit.
Agreed, makes sense. I currently use three with shuriken catapults and shoulder weapons.
The rest of my army is war walkers, falcons, wave serpents, with a smattering of guardians, fire dragons, and striking scorpions.
Lots of ranged power already!
Wraithseers are definitely superior at the moment, as they sadly have been most of the last decade or two. I just can’t stand them..
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also agreed on the targeting priority. My first target is anti-tank melee (blightlords etc.), followed by ranged antitank. My army is very heavily invested in armor, so if I can remove the efficient threats I have half a chance, despite Eldar’s difficulty in brawling in the middle (which is the gap I’m looking to fill).
Verthane wrote: Agreed, makes sense. I currently use three with shuriken catapults and shoulder weapons.
The rest of my army is war walkers, falcons, wave serpents, with a smattering of guardians, fire dragons, and striking scorpions.
Lots of ranged power already!
Wraithseers are definitely superior at the moment, as they sadly have been most of the last decade or two. I just can’t stand them..
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also agreed on the targeting priority. My first target is anti-tank melee (blightlords etc.), followed by ranged antitank. My army is very heavily invested in armor, so if I can remove the efficient threats I have half a chance, despite Eldar’s difficulty in brawling in the middle (which is the gap I’m looking to fill).
I finished a game tonight using more assault elements: 2 Wraithseers and 9 Wraithblades (axe/shield). This was my third game using these in the army and have been very impressed. Previous lists were heavily invested in vehicles and long range shooting. However, the Army struggled competing for the primary objectives. I built a Patrol using Headstrong and Hunters of Ancient Relics and it hits hard and can hold the center area very well. Your statement sounds similar to the issues I faced and, so far, I've been happy with the changes.
I converted my Wraithseers from Wraithlords as I was not a big fan of the FW kit ( assuming it is the aesthetic you don't like).
Verthane wrote: Agreed, makes sense. I currently use three with shuriken catapults and shoulder weapons.
The rest of my army is war walkers, falcons, wave serpents, with a smattering of guardians, fire dragons, and striking scorpions.
Lots of ranged power already!
Wraithseers are definitely superior at the moment, as they sadly have been most of the last decade or two. I just can’t stand them..
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also agreed on the targeting priority. My first target is anti-tank melee (blightlords etc.), followed by ranged antitank. My army is very heavily invested in armor, so if I can remove the efficient threats I have half a chance, despite Eldar’s difficulty in brawling in the middle (which is the gap I’m looking to fill).
I finished a game tonight using more assault elements: 2 Wraithseers and 9 Wraithblades (axe/shield). This was my third game using these in the army and have been very impressed. Previous lists were heavily invested in vehicles and long range shooting. However, the Army struggled competing for the primary objectives. I built a Patrol using Headstrong and Hunters of Ancient Relics and it hits hard and can hold the center area very well. Your statement sounds similar to the issues I faced and, so far, I've been happy with the changes.
I converted my Wraithseers from Wraithlords as I was not a big fan of the FW kit ( assuming it is the aesthetic you don't like).
What are you guys on about! they are basically wraithlords but with a bit of bling and a spear! I love my wraithseers. I kind of regret not splashing on a webway gate and chopping the heads off the statutes. Would have made a good conversion.
I finished a game tonight using more assault elements: 2 Wraithseers and 9 Wraithblades (axe/shield). This was my third game using these in the army and have been very impressed. Previous lists were heavily invested in vehicles and long range shooting. However, the Army struggled competing for the primary objectives. I built a Patrol using Headstrong and Hunters of Ancient Relics and it hits hard and can hold the center area very well. Your statement sounds similar to the issues I faced and, so far, I've been happy with the changes.
I converted my Wraithseers from Wraithlords as I was not a big fan of the FW kit ( assuming it is the aesthetic you don't like).
Makes sense. Thanks, I will have to give Headstrong a second look. It’s promising!
What are you guys on about! they are basically wraithlords but with a bit of bling and a spear! I love my wraithseers. I kind of regret not splashing on a webway gate and chopping the heads off the statutes. Would have made a good conversion.
Different tastes for different folks! I was annoyed when they first came out and got dramatically better rules than my beloved Eldar Dreadnoughts, er, wraithlords. I also am not terribly fond of spears — although between wraithseers and shining spears GW is clearly trying to tell me that I should start liking them!
Verthane wrote: Agreed, makes sense. I currently use three with shuriken catapults and shoulder weapons.
The rest of my army is war walkers, falcons, wave serpents, with a smattering of guardians, fire dragons, and striking scorpions.
Lots of ranged power already!
Wraithseers are definitely superior at the moment, as they sadly have been most of the last decade or two. I just can’t stand them..
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also agreed on the targeting priority. My first target is anti-tank melee (blightlords etc.), followed by ranged antitank. My army is very heavily invested in armor, so if I can remove the efficient threats I have half a chance, despite Eldar’s difficulty in brawling in the middle (which is the gap I’m looking to fill).
I finished a game tonight using more assault elements: 2 Wraithseers and 9 Wraithblades (axe/shield). This was my third game using these in the army and have been very impressed. Previous lists were heavily invested in vehicles and long range shooting. However, the Army struggled competing for the primary objectives. I built a Patrol using Headstrong and Hunters of Ancient Relics and it hits hard and can hold the center area very well. Your statement sounds similar to the issues I faced and, so far, I've been happy with the changes.
I converted my Wraithseers from Wraithlords as I was not a big fan of the FW kit ( assuming it is the aesthetic you don't like).
What are you guys on about! they are basically wraithlords but with a bit of bling and a spear! I love my wraithseers. I kind of regret not splashing on a webway gate and chopping the heads off the statutes. Would have made a good conversion.
I've seen more with the Spears bent. I know they can be straightened out, but I've had models bend affainmover time and I don't like how it looks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I got another game in last night against a Thousand Sons army led by Magnus. With less shooting than normal, dropping Magnus on turn 1 was not likely (and did not work at all). However, my opponent banked on getting first turn and placed a full squad of Thousand Sons on the central objective behind a ruin (mission 32). He underestimated the Wraithblades as they moved into position and quickly dispatched them and held the center. This is exactly what I've been trying to problem solve for awhile: hold/contest objectives. It became a bit of a back and forth through the rest of turn 1 and turn 2, but turn 3 was the back breaking moment. Magnus assaulted the Wraithblades on the bottom of turn 2 and whiffed hard: Magnus wounded 5 times and I miraculously rolled 5 x 4++ taking no damage. I inflicted some damage back. On turn 3, Magnus then went down, the Yncarne, who teleported where a Jetbike squad was destroyed, dropped Arhiman and a Sorcerer, and a Wraithseer dropped another Sorcerer in assault. With that, the game was all but wrapped as I'd taken a large lead in secondaries and was clear to pull well ahead in primaries.
I finally opted to break my army down into 2 Patrols: broadly speaking one Patrol shoots and the other Patrol assaults. Using two separate Custom Craftworld detachments really opened up the army efficiency and have been fairly happy with the balance. The army has play in every phase of the game now and truly feels like a take all comers list.
This was my second game with the Yncarne and pleasantly surprised as it survived two games in a row. I don't think the model is game winning, but the teleport ability is really useful. I literally stuck the model in the back of my deployment zone near my Lynx until the moment was right to teleport. It is a model I can't quite plan out how to use, but feels like it is the model that can be inserted as the need arises. For myself, this is a really important tool that is hard to quantify. In two games now, the model has teleported to a key location and removed key characters. It appears very difficult for opponents to plan for a model to move 3/4 across the board, in their turn, and have accept the Yncarne gets to hit first before they can react. Very powerful tool, but a lot of points and I imagine will cost me games in the future if I play carelessly with it.
I tried two Farseers instead of the Farseer/Warlock Conclave. Yep, switching back to using the Conclave. Seer Council and Focus will are are very powerful combo for these psykers and having a 36" Jinx ability that can remain out of Deny the Witch range is huge. I never got Jinx off all game and failed to cast Guide twice.
All in all, until I receive the Shadow Spectres, I'll continue playing this dual Patrol combination; it's fun, has flexibility, and allows me a fairly deep tool box of options.
What approach would people take to Imperial Guard lists?
Lining up a game for when the world reopens again (darn covid) and the guy i'm playing has told me he uses a tank heavy list with a sh*t tonne of meat shield guards
Any tactical thoughts? I'm thinking combat might be the way to chew through the guards with wraithblades / banshees?
Deepstriking some reserves behind the lines had crossed my mind but with that many tanks / terrain it's going to be hard to find a 9" space if he sits them along the back.
This is one list I've gotten utterly crushed by: @140 Catachan /deep strike (plasma shooting) infantry supported by multiple tanks with no LOS shooting. The board is very saturated with bodies that deep strike is very risky. Craftworld vehicles go down by weight of fire.
Move,Move,Move and First Rank, Second Rank were back breaking. Total board control and the amount of dice, albeit S3 shooting, brought down units in quick order.
I've modified my army extensively since then, and would like another shot at that kind of army. Durable assault elements, in my mind, would help tremendously. A largish brick of Wraithblades, especially with Protect and Fortune, would help push the tide back to give room for shooters such as Shadow Spectres, who may have some space to drop if you can clear enough away. Ultimately, the list needs enough to ensure the IG can't own the entire board and all the objectives.
Of the top of my head i am thinking about aeldari missile launchers on my war walkers and guardian weapon platforms as they can be used for infantry or tanks. Also switching out windrider shurikens for scatter lasers.
Swooping Hawks also crossed my mind - i have 10 of them that could be put to use and assault 4 guns could be handy, as well as their grenade packs.
Executioner / smite would be useful for chipping away too so I would be tempted to field as many psykers as possible.
The guy seems so sure of himself - i'm not going to be upset if I lose, I just don't want to prove him right and be shot off the board by the end of the second turn. Would be nice to have him on the ropes a bit!
I got to play against an IG army this weekend. Different army and different player from my previous post.
Broadly speaking, you need to know what secondaries you will choose and ensure your army can score them. As an example, 10 Hawks can put out 40 or so shots ag against an IG squad and likely destroy it. But, what happens to the Hawks? Generally, they get shot off the board. A small unit of 5 would suit you better for secondaries such as Deploy Scramblers and Engage on all Fronts.
There are a lot of ways an IG army can be built. The IG player this past weekend had a Baneblade, Leman Russ tanks, but only 50 or so infantry models. He called the game on turn three as he was left with @ 20 infantry. He had first turn, but did not swarm the table which provided me room to mauever into assault, table quarters, and multiple objectives. This was in stark contrast to my previous IG opponent from a couple months past. I had Deploy Scramblers locked up in three turns because he gave me the space to do so. Three of my units never fired a shot or got into assault, but we're conducting actions and/or scoring me points with Engage on all Fronts (Storm Guardians, Warp Spiders, Striking Scorpions).
To damage an IG army, the Wraithblades with Axe and Shield performed well (Fortune). Shining Spears worked well for a turn one assault, then consolidate into a tank with multiple blast weapons. However, this was also due to putting his units in a position to allow me to take advantage of this. Both of these units also went into assault on or around objectives, which was key to ensure I maintain the ability to maneuver other units. I ran three, separate D Cannons which were a real threat that were able to position out of LOS and in range.
Craftworld has a lot of units that can compete against IG. However, I think Craftworld is overpaying for a lot of these units and it would be a bad idea to try and outshoot an IG army. Design your army around the objectives and develope your strategy around that concept. My lists at the beginning of 9th and now look very different because of this and it performs much better.
Sarigar wrote: Design your army around the objectives and develope your strategy around that concept. My lists at the beginning of 9th and now look very different because of this and it performs much better.
Good advice - you're absolutely right. I think I got a bit distracted by the OP army and began to take my focus off the objectives.
Being an armchair 9th ed general (covid and all, I played Aeldari in 8th last march) but I started listening to Splintermindi an Aeldari podcast I found on iTunes for some enjoyment in the background while working.
They made a point being to not go for Ob Sec and primaries but instead focus on secondaries (Bring it Down, Attrition, Engage on all Fronts being key) and remove your opponents ability to score their primaries, particularly turns 3-4.
Is this how people are finding Craftworld at the moment?
It's probably fairly solid advice, in that it's really hard for Craftworlds to score primary (or at least to score the 15). Secondaries are much easier for us if we have taken them into account in army design. It's a risky strategy though because some units are really really tough to remove, and if the opponent has one of those sitting on each of the two center objectives, you're simply not removing both in one turn (I'm looking at you, Death Guard!).
I began 9th like most, trying to figure out how the missions work. As time progressed, my army design focussed on secondaries as I struggled to score primaries. Once I got comfortable with my secondaries and averaging 30 points each game (Deploy Scramblers, Engage on all Fronts, Grind Them Down, and post FAQ, While We Stand We Fight), I began tweaking my list in order to find ways to score more primary points.
In the last 8 games, I've scored 45 in 7 out of 8 games (time was called on one game ending it on turn 3). I kept the units that aided me in Deploy Scramblers and Engage on all Fronts, and began using more assault focused units. The army is now broken down into 2 detachments. Roughly, one shoots and the other assaults. I'm a bit challenged on a third secondary objective, but it has been an overall increase in points due to scoring higher on primaries.
The list morphs a bit but below is roughly what has been able to increase my scoring:
Detachment 1 (Patrol)
Hunters of Ancient Relics, Headstrong
Detachment 2 (Spearhead)
Expert Crafters, Masterful Shots
Farseer
Warlock Conclave (2 models)
1 Vyper
5 Warp Spiders
1 Lynx
1 x 3 D Cannon
1 x 2 War Walker
My Shadow Spectres arrived this week, so the list will get tweaked more.
Units that have an inate abilities to arrive via reserves have been very useful (War Walkers, Scorpions, Spiders. Using Webway Strike and Strategic Reserve has also been quite important and their usage varies game by game. Terrain can vary quite a bit based on venue. I still encounter players who don't screen very well and it is typically game over for them as my army hits on multiple fronts while garnering Engageon all Fronts. It also creates significant challenges for target priority.
Phantasm has its uses, but I've been trying to set up a bit more defensive as I tend to spend CP a bit too quickly.
Spiders and Web of Deceit should be an auto include for Deploy Scramblers. Even if opponents screen out their deployment zone, drop them into a protected area in no man's land, deploy scrambler, then move 4d6+7 the following turn into their deployment zone to complete deploy scrambler. Don't worry about them shooting until Scramblers is completed.dd
The assault capability has been key. Previously, I dismissed running Wraithblades (in truth, I think I displayed them badly and I shelved them for awhile). I'd balked running them on foot, but I've found they really need to move to the center of the board, which is not nearly as far as I'd thought. Running 5 felt too small, but 8 had the bulk I felt I needed. Fortune is critical to this unit, and having a bigger unit yields better utility when Fortune is cast. Protect is a nice addition for sure, but have found if given the choice, it is more important to ensure Fortune is cast.
The Yncarne is not a unit I would necessarily recommend. I painted the model about a year ago and just want to use it. However, I will say the model has been working very well in every game. The reposition mechanic is very powerful and opponents have been challenged countering it. The Vyper can be utilized as a bait unit, setting up in hopes my opponent will move close enough to shoot it off the table, then the Yncarne repostions in order to set up Heroic Intervention.
D Cannons moving independently have been interesting. I may paint more up as I'm starting to see the allure of running 6-9 of them.
Ultimately, I am changing my mind on the premise Craftworld are unable to score primaries. I'll get another game or two in tomorrow with a unit of Spectres and see if the trend of maxing primaries continues.
I want to finish my Wraithknight. I have the arms magnitized. he is airbrushed up for a base coat and I'm wondering which weapon options are smartest to finish painting.
i only have one. thanks kindly. much appreciate the last two responses as well
Currently, all the options under perform for the points. Despite that, I still played a few games with 1-3 Wraithknights because I like the model. The best option I've had is to go with Sword/Scattershield and keep the points as cheap as possible (360 points?). It will be sin an Auxiliary detachment which will not get Craftworld benefits, but you can cast Fortune on it as it has the Asuryani keyword for added durability.
Hey Folks. I'm a stranger to Craftworlds. I need to help my buddy out. My friend is a very relaxed kind of player, and he expressed concern that he has an upcoming game vs space wolves where that player wants to bring 12 Thunderwolf Cavalry.
The best advice I could give him is fire and fading 10 dark reapers, with 2 farseers to cast guide/doom/smite/executioner and a spiritseer to hit a squad of thunderwolves with Jinx. Backing all that up is a nice 20 man guardian bomb from deep strike. By my math, the psychic power combo plus dark reapers should eat 6 thunderwolves a turn?
His models are fairly limited and dated. I'm trying to help him put together something that can at least hang with a list like that. Any advice would be appreciated. I think he was planning on running Expert Crafters/Martial Citizenry for his craftworld.
iGuy91 wrote: Hey Folks. I'm a stranger to Craftworlds. I need to help my buddy out. My friend is a very relaxed kind of player, and he expressed concern that he has an upcoming game vs space wolves where that player wants to bring 12 Thunderwolf Cavalry.
The best advice I could give him is fire and fading 10 dark reapers, with 2 farseers to cast guide/doom/smite/executioner and a spiritseer to hit a squad of thunderwolves with Jinx. Backing all that up is a nice 20 man guardian bomb from deep strike. By my math, the psychic power combo plus dark reapers should eat 6 thunderwolves a turn?
His models are fairly limited and dated. I'm trying to help him put together something that can at least hang with a list like that. Any advice would be appreciated. I think he was planning on running Expert Crafters/Martial Citizenry for his craftworld.
Ehhh... Sounds joyful... Running 12 TWC is very oppressive and will be hard to deal with... You can probably reliably kill 1 unit maybe in T1/2. But not two. Therefore the second unit will hit his lines and cripple the army in all likely hood. If I was your friend id find someone else to play with coz clearly the other dude doesn't care weather his opponent will have a fun game or stand a chance of winning. What models does he have ?
Failing that- ensure there are plenty craters /terrain and use those to slow them down. A 10 man reaper blob with guide and doom and guardians should deal with one unit. But the second unit will be problematic.
A sound tactic would be to bait and switch a flank with phantasm. I.e. put the heavy guns / reapers on far flank/corner and hope he puts all the TWC to mirror and then phantasm those guns to the other side of the board to buy time.
Also, warlock instead of spirit seer because of Seer council startegem. The psychic will be crucial and he needs to ensure it goes off. To that end in order to be as efficient as possible, I'd run a patrol with Eldrad and warlock and a blob of 20 black guardians, and the rest as an expert crafters spearhead. and just go all in on heavy weapons in order to outshoot the wolves. However the amount of storm shields will be hard to overcome. So MW will be his friend Executioner/smite.
Another thing to consider, a warlock conclave unit with at least 4 dudes in it. That way you can get Jinx and Restrain. Double up the range to 34" for both powers with startegem.
1. Cast Doom+Guide + Jinx Vs the nearest unit(Unit A) and aim to shoot them up to high heavens.
2. Secondly use restrain+ craters to halve/reduce the movement of the furthest unit (Unit B). Hopefully this will mean you don't get charged by the second unit and destroy the first unit or only get charged by remnants of first unit.
Hopefully he can get some sort of counter charge unit in the form of wraithguard with axes and shields. Dealing with those TWC with only shooting might prove diffciult. Especially as we have no idea what else he is brining.
even if he does turtle up T1/2 in order to shoot the cav it might be too late to win in the remaining turns and catch up on the primariy VP's so there is also that to consider.
@Argive - Yeah, the opponent has a bit of a rep for being like that, but my friend doesn't like to back down either. lol.
He's got a dated kind of aspect warrior force. Wave Serpents, Banshees/Scorpions/DarkReapers/DireAvengers/Firedragons.
So, he could probably use phantasm to move the wave serpents around, get extra value out of essentially moving the transport, and the squad(s) inside.
Good thinking with the warlock as well.
I am assuming he will get one of those units in. As Cav, I was thinking of suggesting he use a wave serpent or something to build a wall he'll need to assault to break through to get to the squishier bits.
I also suggested to him he take a unit of 5 rangers for scramblers, and a unit of 5 scorpions to do scramblers in the marine deployment zone. Seems like a good way to get some secondaries with minimum investment.
iGuy91 wrote: @Argive - Yeah, the opponent has a bit of a rep for being like that, but my friend doesn't like to back down either. lol.
He's got a dated kind of aspect warrior force. Wave Serpents, Banshees/Scorpions/DarkReapers/DireAvengers/Firedragons.
So, he could probably use phantasm to move the wave serpents around, get extra value out of essentially moving the transport, and the squad(s) inside.
Good thinking with the warlock as well.
I am assuming he will get one of those units in. As Cav, I was thinking of suggesting he use a wave serpent or something to build a wall he'll need to assault to break through to get to the squishier bits.
I also suggested to him he take a unit of 5 rangers for scramblers, and a unit of 5 scorpions to do scramblers in the marine deployment zone. Seems like a good way to get some secondaries with minimum investment.
I dont think a wave serpent would hold up a unit of TWC rocking thunder hammers.
Anyway I wish your fiend luck.
iGuy91 wrote: Hey Folks. I'm a stranger to Craftworlds. I need to help my buddy out. My friend is a very relaxed kind of player, and he expressed concern that he has an upcoming game vs space wolves where that player wants to bring 12 Thunderwolf Cavalry.
The best advice I could give him is fire and fading 10 dark reapers, with 2 farseers to cast guide/doom/smite/executioner and a spiritseer to hit a squad of thunderwolves with Jinx. Backing all that up is a nice 20 man guardian bomb from deep strike. By my math, the psychic power combo plus dark reapers should eat 6 thunderwolves a turn?
His models are fairly limited and dated. I'm trying to help him put together something that can at least hang with a list like that. Any advice would be appreciated. I think he was planning on running Expert Crafters/Martial Citizenry for his craftworld.
Sounds like a bit of a douche... but there's a way around it.
Tell your friend to field at least one, if not two hemlock wraithfighters
Equipped with 2 heavy d-sythes that automatically hit D3 times each and will wound on 2s, AP4, causing 2 damage.
They'll rinse through them in no time AND best of all, as they're flyers, they can't be charged unless his Thunderwolves sprout wings.
So I've recently had my arse handed to me a couple of times by a friend who plays Drukhari. Their new codex is brutal! I want to build a list that can at least compete with him and I own more Eldar than anything else. We've played so far at 1000 points. He brought two patrols. The first was A Master Succubus with Bloodbrides in a Raider, supported by Hellions, Reavers and Scourges. The other was an Archon with regular Kabalites in a Raider, supported by Incubi in a Venom. He has absolutely detroyed me when I have used fluffy Firstborn marines. It hasn't even been a contest.
Do Craftworlds have much of a chance?
I don't have any Wraithknights, fliers (except some FW Phoenix Bombers, which I suppose I could proxy as Crimson Hunters, as he plays a proxy, unpainted army, so doesn't mind the same from me), Wraithblades, mounted psykers or Shining Spears (though I could proxy some). I have LOTS of everything else.
I am realising that I need to focus more on Secondaries, and think a squad or two of Warp Spiders will help. Maybe even some Striking Scorpions, as long as I remember they are for objectives, not fighting! I know Dark Reapers have a good rep right now. Do Howling Banshees have any place in an army right now? I haven't played much 9th edtion at all due to lockdown, but I never got much use out of them in 8th. For troops, do I just want minimal Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents or Falcons? What HQ is best? Still a Farseer? Again, I have pretty much all options available.
I'd try heaps of guardians of the black veriaety. 1x Ulthwe patrol Eldrad Warlock 2x 20 man blobs. Put one in the web way the other one start on the field
So you wana shoot the raiders with the AT guns + MWs and then shuriken death the contents of the raiders idealy. at 1k pts he might struggle with 40 guardians plus platform
Keep one blob on the board and the other in reserve. Make a wall of guardians protecting your characters and objective so he will be forced to remove them. Cast protect on the blob and use celestial shield strat althought tanking on a 2+ on the platform might do the trick. And then just blast with your AT and MW to dela damage and shuriken+doom anything that comes close.
The Guardian blob would face a guaranteed turn 2 charge from the Wyches, even if the transport was down. A smaller squad just to get in the way might be good... 20 of them with protect would still fold in a turn. I suppose if they do that, they have protected something else.
I think Falcons and Vypers might be a good tool to use. Mobile enough to get shots at his raiders whilst not getting charged, hopefully.
Fifty wrote: The Guardian blob would face a guaranteed turn 2 charge from the Wyches, even if the transport was down. A smaller squad just to get in the way might be good... 20 of them with protect would still fold in a turn. I suppose if they do that, they have protected something else.
I think Falcons and Vypers might be a good tool to use. Mobile enough to get shots at his raiders whilst not getting charged, hopefully.
I have to say I don't know the ins and out of the new drukhari codex. Realistically with a 3++/6+++ (2+/3++/6++ on platform) against shooting and a 4+ /6+++ in combat, is the entire 20 guardian blob going to die in one turn? Especially if you manouver and use terrain.
Even if the wyches do get through you will have 2 smites as well as executioner to deal with whatever is left of the squad.
Alteratively you could flip it and use the falcons as a barricade and hide the guardians behind them so if the wyches charge the falcons they can tickle it until they die in the psychic phase.
I think he might struggle to get rid of the tanks as well as 42 fairly tanky bodies (for space elfs)
The ten of the souped up wyches deliver 41 attacks, hitting on 2+, wounding other elves on 3+ and re-rolling 1s, with extra ap on a 6. That means that they can take out enough that the rest will probably be lost to morale. A few might survive. Maybe I should work out the exact likelihood of any survivors.
If the points imbalance weren't so bad, it might be worth the exchange as the wyches could then be easily killed.
The Falcons would probably be a better bet as they only deal one damage per wound, so wounding on 5+, and the Falcons keeping their save for most of the attacks would mean it probably survive, especially if it had Spirit Stones. If the Succubus was there too, it would be destroyed, but then that leaves the wyches and succubus potentially exposed, which is good.
I was more concerned about the incubi. In that list the spirit seer has restrain with a reroll to slow down and potnetialy prevent charge from either threat units. Forgot to give him falochus wing for a 12" movement meaning he has at least a 31-36" threat range with that power.
So potentially you could sacrifice him to slow down the blood brides. But tbh. Should be getting in his face with the guardians and psychic IMO.
Depending on if you get T1 or not. Kill the raider and he potentially looses 1-2 on average in explosion. Then you only need to kill 8 with shuriken catapults or just throw a flacoln in their way.
Could drop the vyper for another set of platofrms as well as spirit stones for extra tankiness.
Not at all, but I like to have the extra command points where I can. Open to suggestions though!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’m also not set on Craftworld attributes. Plan to play a custom.
Masterful Shots is a must for a few of the guys I’ll be playing against. Beyond that, I’m torn on the second between Expert Crafters, Hail of Doom or potentially even Superior Shurikens.
It may be worth considering Biel-Tan for this list as you can take advantage of the rerolls for shuriken and the aspect warriors can benefit from the extra LD which could be clutch in keeping one guy on an objective to net you a few VP. It also opens up the spirit stone relic for reroll potential on your warlock.
If you're going down custom craftworlds, you could split your war walker squadron to avail of Expert Crafters for the rerolls and it forces split firing instead of just focusing down the one squad and the single detachment you're using allows for that. The same could be done with your jetbikes. Superior shurikens would also be good too, and that combo might be a bit better than using something + masterful shots.
Tyranid Horde wrote: It may be worth considering Biel-Tan for this list as you can take advantage of the rerolls for shuriken and the aspect warriors can benefit from the extra LD which could be clutch in keeping one guy on an objective to net you a few VP. It also opens up the spirit stone relic for reroll potential on your warlock.
If you're going down custom craftworlds, you could split your war walker squadron to avail of Expert Crafters for the rerolls and it forces split firing instead of just focusing down the one squad and the single detachment you're using allows for that. The same could be done with your jetbikes. Superior shurikens would also be good too, and that combo might be a bit better than using something + masterful shots.
Interesting thought with Biel Tan for sure. I did consider splitting the walkers and bikes but doing so would mean i can only guide / protect one such unit rather than all of them.
I think for that reason, it may be better to keep them as a single unit, but time will tell.
Bit of a modeling tactical question for the team. So I have finished nine Shining Spears, but I am interested if I should keep them on the large clear round bases, or mount them on the smaller clear round bases and use shorter supports? It seems to me that it would create a smaller profile and allow them to be clumped closer together...perhaps even allowing them to fall in behind a building. I do not envision them as holding objectives for any length of time, so board control is not a concern.
Now before some cries: "Mount them on the bases they came with." I actually built the nine from eBay purchases of bits and broken model lots. So they were missing the bases, and I asked my gaming group to provide the large clear round ones I have fitted them on with magnets for now. So many broken bits were used, that there are in fact a total of 14 ruined jetbikes employed to make 9 functional ones). They are also mostly metal (no resin), so they would be from the era of the smaller round bases.
I'd put them on the current jetbike bases. Three reasons:
1. Larger base = Better stability. Especialy if you have metal parts you dotn want to be knocking them over.
2. Consistency - Logicaly, Current jetbike bases will be used when spears get a plastic kit. Its more of an "if" really, but nonetheless IMO good sense and maybe some future proofing. (Spears are going to get a plastic kit right ? Right? Riiiiiight!?)
3. More coverage. Bigger bases will mean getting more dudes into combat. Yes it will mean they are easier to shoot but also fulfilling their primary function which is to wreck face.
3. More coverage. Bigger bases will mean getting more dudes into combat. Yes it will mean they are easier to shoot but also fulfilling their primary function which is to wreck face.
Isn't this the opposite? smaller bases you can cram more in. Having watched a Space Wolf player in 4th ed deliberately shrink bases (put wolves on 25 mm, etc) it was pretty gamey to have the models on smaller models. Especially with snaking them through two rhino's who were 26 mm apart.
These days the rules don't matter as much having smaller bases vs larger aside from smaller effects. You may get 1-2 more or fewer models changing in a situation but the game is decided upon tactical play more than an extra model attacking. Dice are too variable to pick apart granularities.
So I concur with argive, put them on nice fancy large bases you build with care and detail. It will really jazz up your army.
I'm only 1-1 against Orks in 9th. Against mass Smasha Guns, it is more ideal to take loads of one wound infantry and fight over objectives and diminish the opponent's secondary scoring.
If Ghaz is in the army, be patient and wait until you can destroy him in a single turn. I've killed Ghaz via one Farseer casting three powers, Shining Spears shooting, followed by Shining Spears assault. You can only do 4 wounds in a single phase.
Deff Skulls have objective secured across the army.
You can use Forewarning after the Ork player uses Da Jump (see Rare Rules for repositioned units).
I find Orks difficult, but I also rarely face them, so my knowledge is a bit limited.
Struggling to put a list together that I feel confident with. My Only saving grace (I think?) is that at 1k points a DG force will be very small so I have the opportunity to outnumber and hopefully win objectively.
Play the mission, same as always. Build an army around at least 2 secondary objectives. Damage 2 weapons are mitigated somewhat, but Craftworld does not have much D2 weapons (Hornet Pulse Lasers...).
I'm having my first game since September with the aim of moving into proper competitive play later on in the year. Don't know what I am playing against so it's a bit of a take all comers list with the intent to max out at least 2 secondaries (Deploy Scramblers, Engage on all fronts) using units I've had success with in the past.
Let me know what you all think, I can see replacing the Scorpions and Hawks but I am aware I lose their deep strike potential for Engage and/or Scramblers. I was also thinking of replacing the EML with Bright Lances for expert crafters to be more useful on the Walkers and maybe changing the starcannons to lances on the CHE.
Tyranid Horde wrote: I'm having my first game since September with the aim of moving into proper competitive play later on in the year. Don't know what I am playing against so it's a bit of a take all comers list with the intent to max out at least 2 secondaries (Deploy Scramblers, Engage on all fronts) using units I've had success with in the past.
Let me know what you all think, I can see replacing the Scorpions and Hawks but I am aware I lose their deep strike potential for Engage and/or Scramblers. I was also thinking of replacing the EML with Bright Lances for expert crafters to be more useful on the Walkers and maybe changing the starcannons to lances on the CHE.
Id swap out the Spirit seer for a bike-lock or foot-lock (warlock) For seer council startegem.
Also, I would personaly drop the CHE in favour of a wraithseer or falcoln or maybe some weapon platforms or just more war walkers.
Also maybe drop hawks and scorpions in favour of banshees and have them jump out of a serpent to try and nab obective/ tie up big shooty tank.
A few people are suggesting it online to give him the ability to target characters with that beasty D-Cannon, but Battlescribe won't give the option and I personally don't see how it could be allowed either?
The Wraithseer is a HS choice and cannot be the Warlord. Those giving advice appear to not be aware that the FW book for 9th edition was released several months back which changed the rules for that model.
Some thoughts regarding Deploy Scramblers. Turn 1, a squad of Dire Avengers complete the action in either your deployment zone or the midboard. Turn 2, Warp Spiders enter play from Reserve to complete the action in another area. Turn 3, utilize Web of Deceit to move to the final location. While the Warp Spiders are positioned on turns 2 and 3, keep in mind the Engage on All Fronts as they can also assist in this secondary. With that said, I'm not sure you really need the Swooping Hawks.
I have mixed feelings about the CHE. Some games, it performs very well, while others it gets shot down turn 1.
I do think a Warlock Skyrunner would suit the list better than the Spiritseer, primarily for the Seer Council stratagem.
If you drop the Hawks, you habe enough for another War Walker. I use War Walkers in nearly every game and they are key units.
EML and Masterful Shots have merit to mitigate the mediocre AP for the high strength shots.
You make a fair point about the Hawks, and considering the Warp Spiders can do most of the leg work for scramblers, I'll drop them. Now, I do not have a 4th War Walker available to me currently so would a decent replacement be a Vyper as a relative like for like, or should I consider a squad of Banshees as a utility unit to tar pit enemy shooting, or give some jetbikes a shot?
I'll swap out the spiritseer for a jetlock, I always tend to forget about the seer council stratagem.
I'm with you on the CHE, and I'm bringing it as a bit of a distraction fex to protect my Dark Reapers, who also tend to be enemy target number one. I figure losing the CHE will be less impactful than the Reapers in the long run so if it survives, that's great, and if it dies, I'm not overly fussed as my other stuff survives.
Re the CHE if you do take it you can strategic reserve it and it can come on anywhere. Or use cloudstrike, this should get you at least one turn from it.
Not a bad idea at all actually, usually it starts on the board but having it off would keep it alive and I can use it for an easy turn of engage on all fronts. It would also allow me to play a cagey turn 1 so nothing is easy to shoot at should I get not get first turn
kryczek wrote: Re the CHE if you do take it you can strategic reserve it and it can come on anywhere. Or use cloudstrike, this should get you at least one turn from it.
Fair point
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sarigar wrote: The Wraithseer is a HS choice and cannot be the Warlord. Those giving advice appear to not be aware that the FW book for 9th edition was released several months back which changed the rules for that model.
Some thoughts regarding Deploy Scramblers. Turn 1, a squad of Dire Avengers complete the action in either your deployment zone or the midboard. Turn 2, Warp Spiders enter play from Reserve to complete the action in another area. Turn 3, utilize Web of Deceit to move to the final location. While the Warp Spiders are positioned on turns 2 and 3, keep in mind the Engage on All Fronts as they can also assist in this secondary. With that said, I'm not sure you really need the Swooping Hawks.
I have mixed feelings about the CHE. Some games, it performs very well, while others it gets shot down turn 1.
I do think a Warlock Skyrunner would suit the list better than the Spiritseer, primarily for the Seer Council stratagem.
If you drop the Hawks, you habe enough for another War Walker. I use War Walkers in nearly every game and they are key units.
EML and Masterful Shots have merit to mitigate the mediocre AP for the high strength shots.
Best of luck.
Didint realise he was already loaded up on heavy support.
You make a fair point about the Hawks, and considering the Warp Spiders can do most of the leg work for scramblers, I'll drop them. Now, I do not have a 4th War Walker available to me currently so would a decent replacement be a Vyper as a relative like for like, or should I consider a squad of Banshees as a utility unit to tar pit enemy shooting, or give some jetbikes a shot?
I'll swap out the spiritseer for a jetlock, I always tend to forget about the seer council stratagem.
I'm with you on the CHE, and I'm bringing it as a bit of a distraction fex to protect my Dark Reapers, who also tend to be enemy target number one. I figure losing the CHE will be less impactful than the Reapers in the long run so if it survives, that's great, and if it dies, I'm not overly fussed as my other stuff survives.
Your large Dark Reaper unit should be able to avoid getting shot at for most, if not all, but of the game. Disembark, shoot, use Fire and Fade to get back into the Wave Serpent. CP discipline is key ( I tend to use a lot of CP turns 1 and 2 and wish I had more in latter turns).
You make a fair point about the Hawks, and considering the Warp Spiders can do most of the leg work for scramblers, I'll drop them. Now, I do not have a 4th War Walker available to me currently so would a decent replacement be a Vyper as a relative like for like, or should I consider a squad of Banshees as a utility unit to tar pit enemy shooting, or give some jetbikes a shot?
I'll swap out the spiritseer for a jetlock, I always tend to forget about the seer council stratagem.
I'm with you on the CHE, and I'm bringing it as a bit of a distraction fex to protect my Dark Reapers, who also tend to be enemy target number one. I figure losing the CHE will be less impactful than the Reapers in the long run so if it survives, that's great, and if it dies, I'm not overly fussed as my other stuff survives.
Your large Dark Reaper unit should be able to avoid getting shot at for most, if not all, but of the game. Disembark, shoot, use Fire and Fade to get back into the Wave Serpent. CP discipline is key ( I tend to use a lot of CP turns 1 and 2 and wish I had more in latter turns).
Does this trick require two transports or can you embark on the same transport ?
Despite hearing almost every Craftworld player say that the "only way to play CW is vehicle heavy lists" I actually had very few. No grav tanks at all, only one war walker and two weapon platforms.
Managed to field two farseers (one on foot and a skyrunner) as well as a spiritseer and wraithseer. Sooooo much smite - and executioner of course - made for a great way to whittle down his warriors quickly without allowing his reanimations while also letting me use my shooting phase for the big bad units.
I watched 3 battle reps for CW v Necrons ahead of the game and in ALL of them, Eldar conceded by the third turn. Once in the second. I was expecting to be massacred before i even went in so overall a very pleasing and surprising result!
Happy to share the full list if anybody is interested / curious!
Despite hearing almost every Craftworld player say that the "only way to play CW is vehicle heavy lists" I actually had very few. No grav tanks at all, only one war walker and two weapon platforms.
Managed to field two farseers (one on foot and a skyrunner) as well as a spiritseer and wraithseer. Sooooo much smite - and executioner of course - made for a great way to whittle down his warriors quickly without allowing his reanimations while also letting me use my shooting phase for the big bad units.
I watched 3 battle reps for CW v Necrons ahead of the game and in ALL of them, Eldar conceded by the third turn. Once in the second. I was expecting to be massacred before i even went in so overall a very pleasing and surprising result!
Happy to share the full list if anybody is interested / curious!
Argive wrote: I hope you played this as a battalion and a spearhead because its illegal battalion 4 Heavy slots :S
Automatically Appended Next Post: Im planning to try something very similar as an ulthwe patrol and a EC spearhead when my area is open for games.
Yes spearhead - I just built the list in battalion and couldn’t be bothered to rebuild the whole thing in spearhead in Battle Scribe after I decided to switch it lol
Recently inherited an Eldar Force and eager to develop and play something a bit different to my Mechanized Greenskins.
However, reading through some of the posts here it appears that there are some abilities and features that are not in the current Codex. Assuming there was a release, similar to the Orks, for the Eldar. Are the key points available somewhere? Much rather pay for new box models (Banshees or a Serpent) than a pretty book that is mostly fluff and pics.
Thanks in advance for your help.
Hope to ask more questions here as the force progresses.
In the Psychic Awakening book there were alternative Exarch and Warlock powers as well as the more important Custom Craftworld Traits. They do not change the units in the Codex, but they do make the Craftworld builds a little bit more competitive.
Argive wrote:Instead of the shadow weaver wouldn't you be better off with a tempest launcher ?
Tough call but i like the reliability of the regular reaper launchers. Firing twice with guide at flat 3 damage is too good to pass up in a list that has few 'big guns'.
The infantry killers come from shuriken fire with Hail of Doom and the large amount of smite spam but the shadow weaver was a good back up as it can hide away and still fire.
Argive wrote:Anyone have a run down of the custom traits and powers saved for the guy?
I know we posted these when the book came out/ was being previewed but I have no idea which thread this would be in.
Despite hearing almost every Craftworld player say that the "only way to play CW is vehicle heavy lists" I actually had very few. No grav tanks at all, only one war walker and two weapon platforms.
Managed to field two farseers (one on foot and a skyrunner) as well as a spiritseer and wraithseer. Sooooo much smite - and executioner of course - made for a great way to whittle down his warriors quickly without allowing his reanimations while also letting me use my shooting phase for the big bad units.
I watched 3 battle reps for CW v Necrons ahead of the game and in ALL of them, Eldar conceded by the third turn. Once in the second. I was expecting to be massacred before i even went in so overall a very pleasing and surprising result!
Happy to share the full list if anybody is interested / curious!
Great to roll some dice again finally!
I started vehicle heavy when 9th was released, but as the months went on and armies other than Marines hit the table, my army morphed quite a bit. Adding an assault element was key. The number of models with the vehicle keyword diminished as well. War Walkers are still a staple in my army, but units like Shadow Spectres, Reapers, and Wraithblades replaced vehicles with fairly good results. Happy to hear you getting to roll dice again and having solid results.
I started vehicle heavy when 9th was released, but as the months went on and armies other than Marines hit the table, my army morphed quite a bit. Adding an assault element was key. The number of models with the vehicle keyword diminished as well. War Walkers are still a staple in my army, but units like Shadow Spectres, Reapers, and Wraithblades replaced vehicles with fairly good results. Happy to hear you getting to roll dice again and having solid results.
Funny you mention Walkers - i have taken them in every list up to now because - again - everybody insists theyre one of our strongest units.
Honestly, i haven't had THAT much luck with them. How do you generally field them?
Usually the best way to run them is in single walker units to avail of expert crafters and masterful shots. They're also tough enough to force some hard decisions for your opponent as it can be much easier to point a killy thing at a full unit and watch it evaporate.
You can start them on or off the board, so they have potential in achieving secondaries like engage on all fronts, or use the model's base as a decent screen during deployment.
I like running them with EMLs and Starcannons as it makes them threatening to a range of targets.
I started vehicle heavy when 9th was released, but as the months went on and armies other than Marines hit the table, my army morphed quite a bit. Adding an assault element was key. The number of models with the vehicle keyword diminished as well. War Walkers are still a staple in my army, but units like Shadow Spectres, Reapers, and Wraithblades replaced vehicles with fairly good results. Happy to hear you getting to roll dice again and having solid results.
Funny you mention Walkers - i have taken them in every list up to now because - again - everybody insists theyre one of our strongest units.
Honestly, i haven't had THAT much luck with them. How do you generally field them?
It varies on opposing army and the rest of my army, but I tend to place them in Reserve and set up solid fire lines and assist with Engage on all Fronts.
Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots have been my go to. Of late, I've been running 2 x 1 each with a Brightlance and Starcannon. In the past, I've run 1 x 3 with Starcannons when I faced a lot of Marines. I'm currently building a unit of 1 x 2 War Walkers with Shuriken Cannons. Cheapish shooting against the non Marine armies. One thing I will be excited for is if we can see an updated rule for Brightlances. I envy the Dark Lances damage opposed to Brightlances.
Crafter91 wrote: Eldar vs Orks
What do people recommend? I’m thinking lots of Shuriken fire, maybe add Hail of Doom to give no saves to majority of units?
Executioner and Smite for horde units?
Any out-of-the-box ideas welcomed!
Over saturation of fire. Doom and guide as a guaranteed cast. The -1 save wouldn't hurt either. Mobility as well so you can avoid lockdown.
I'm not sure how Smite helps for Horde or Executioner. But if you can math out a way to make a portion of your army take out mmmm 45 boyz a turn that's effective. That much helps bad rolls; and you'll want to be a bit far away to avoid counter threats. You'll want your army to not engage take down key threats per turn.
Crafter91 wrote: Eldar vs Orks
What do people recommend? I’m thinking lots of Shuriken fire, maybe add Hail of Doom to give no saves to majority of units?
Executioner and Smite for horde units?
Any out-of-the-box ideas welcomed!
Over saturation of fire. Doom and guide as a guaranteed cast. The -1 save wouldn't hurt either. Mobility as well so you can avoid lockdown.
I'm not sure how Smite helps for Horde or Executioner. But if you can math out a way to make a portion of your army take out mmmm 45 boyz a turn that's effective. That much helps bad rolls; and you'll want to be a bit far away to avoid counter threats. You'll want your army to not engage take down key threats per turn.
I'm actually rematching this game on Friday - unfortunately we had to cut it short due to unforeseen events after turn 2.. but i was off to a cracking start at the time!
Annoyingly this likely means that my OP will adjust his list but also affords me the possibility to do the same.
I did like lots of shuriken fire + hail of doom as it helped thin out hordes. I took a unit of hawks for scramblers but i'm in two minds about whether to keep them or not.
I also took a guardian blob which was great but i was restricted as to where i could fit it on the table due to the volume of minis. I wouldn't want him to stop me from webwaying them anywhere useful by screening the table.
Much rather pay for new box models (Banshees or a Serpent) than a pretty book that is mostly fluff and pics.
