He is ok. I have not used him since his points reduction. He needs additional sniper support to kill characters, though. I never had much luck killing characters on his own: using Rangers as actual snipers were necessary (as opposed to using Rangers as speed bumps). Not sure how I would fit him into a current list while I personally use the Craftworld Traits as opposed to Alaitoc.
This part is bit cheesy because mixing craftworld ... But I'd also a wraith seer in a custom craft world (crafters/concealment) detachment with the mark of hunter warlord trait. Although I'm in two minds about what weapon to run. I think a star cannon would be best for the job but also going the whole hog on a D-cannon or AML is tempting. The only problem is the range.
Its a bit telegraphed and also gives away warlord easily so I can imagine anyone worth his salt will just focus on the wraith seer.
Alternatively I'm thinking about using the AOK with hunter trait instead as back up close range sniper.
Does AOK get the craft world traits ? I cant remember. Remember FAQ saying he's not a named character so can get warlord traits.
Has anyone tried illic recently? He seems like a decent, cheap sniper.
I was thinking about a spearhead with him and 3 prisms in a separate detachment. Alaitoc may not be what it was but -1 to hit still isn't bad, especially when linked fire is so good. Nice little plug in detachment, illic is unusual in that he's not a support character and hitting on 2, wounding on 2 with a -3 ap flat 3 damage gun seems pretty tasty.
Havent tried him yet. Got one built and primed. Im thinking of slotting him into alitoic battalion with rangers plus maybe warp spiders/shadow specters backed up by wraith seer with mark of hunter.
Well, I want to add some support weapons to my Eldar army.
In the current tournament meta, the armies contain either vibro cannons or shadow weavers.
What is your pick?
I've only used vibro cannons and they're very good, especially with expert crafters.
I think shadow weavers are overshadowed by night spinners but that's just my guess since I don't use either at the moment.
kingheff wrote: I've only used vibro cannons and they're very good, especially with expert crafters.
I think shadow weavers are overshadowed by night spinners but that's just my guess since I don't use either at the moment.
Sounds reasonable. I'll go with 6 vibro cannons atm.
Spoiler:
My Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [124 PL, 1,998pts]
Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [28 PL, 559pts]
No Force Org Slot
Craftworld Attribute
*Custom Craftworld*
Selections: Expert Crafters, Masters of Concealment
HQ Autarch Skyrunner (Legends) [6 PL, 127pts]
Selections: 5: Mark of the Incomparable Hunter, Craftworlds Warlord, Laser Lance, Reaper Launcher, Twin Shuriken Catapult
The Phoenix Gem
Heavy Support
Dark Reapers [7 PL, 160pts]
4x Dark Reaper
Selections: 4x Reaper Launcher
Dark Reaper Exarch
Selections: Tempest Launcher
Exarch Power
Selections: Crack Shot
Dark Reapers [7 PL, 160pts]
4x Dark Reaper
Selections: 4x Reaper Launcher
Dark Reaper Exarch
Selections: Tempest Launcher
Exarch Power
Selections: Crack Shot
Support Weapons [9 PL, 105pts]
Support Weapon
Selections: Vibro Cannon
Support Weapon
Selections: Vibro Cannon
Support Weapon
Selections: Vibro Cannon
Support Weapons [9 PL, 105pts]
Support Weapon
Selections: Vibro Cannon
Support Weapon
Selections: Vibro Cannon
Support Weapon
Selections: Vibro Cannon
Looks good, fairly similar to a list I've used a few times recently. I don't have the reapers or walkers in mine but a lot of that is down to the fact I run 1500 pt lists at the local store. I've tended to go with a star cannon and twin cats on my falcons but two cannons with hail of doom could be interesting. I'd love to hear how they perform.
How have Masters of Concealment worked for you? I ended up facing a lot of Marines and Iron Warrior armies of la te and there was so much `ignore cover ` in those armies, it felt wasted. Curious to see if it is just a local area thing.
I haven't played against anyone who can ignore cover yet.
The armies that don't ignore it certainly works really well a wave serpent with a 2+ is amazing.. thrown in a bunch of wraith lords etc... it mounts up to pretty resilient force.
The main trait I build around is expert craters though.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I want to add some support weapons to my Eldar army.
In the current tournament meta, the armies contain either vibro cannons or shadow weavers.
What is your pick?
I've had very good results with D-cannon. They're a bit terrain-dependent, but since battlefields in my area tend to have lots of LOS-blocking terrain in the middle (I think this is an ITC thing?) the D-cannon usually have a nice place to hide. Combine a battery with a Warp Hunter or two and your LOS-ignoring guns can sweep heavy units off the table.
Vibro cannon are good, too. Four or more is the way to go. I've played with up to six, which do decently good work, especially for the points. They do like being screened or otherwise covered by your army; if you just leave them hanging out on the flank they risk being mobbed in melee.
Vibros generlly, they are a lot cheaper and have better range.
The best thing is you can mix and match. I'm thinking of running 4 vibros and 2 D-cannons. You really need them to camp down on an objective and have a nice piece of LOS blocking terrain. But if I was going full tilt I'd probably take all vibros.
Tip - When you build them, make sure you file out the weapon slot and have a lot of space either side to prevent the gun scraping against the turret part and you can just swap them out.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I want to add some support weapons to my Eldar army.
In the current tournament meta, the armies contain either vibro cannons or shadow weavers.
What is your pick?
I've had very good results with D-cannon. They're a bit terrain-dependent, but since battlefields in my area tend to have lots of LOS-blocking terrain in the middle (I think this is an ITC thing?) the D-cannon usually have a nice place to hide. Combine a battery with a Warp Hunter or two and your LOS-ignoring guns can sweep heavy units off the table.
Vibro cannon are good, too. Four or more is the way to go. I've played with up to six, which do decently good work, especially for the points. They do like being screened or otherwise covered by your army; if you just leave them hanging out on the flank they risk being mobbed in melee.
They have a coherency of 6" so if an enemy commits so far into the backfield just to take out a 35 pts unit its done its job by then I think.
Mine have always been ignored as they have more pressing concerns such as chargin wraith lords and wraith guard wave serpents and dark reapers..
Tip - When you build them, make sure you file out the weapon slot and have a lot of space either side to prevent the gun scraping against the turret part and you can just swap them out.
Nice tip. I've ordered 6 of them but they are not on stock atm.
Argive wrote: I haven't played against anyone who can ignore cover yet.
The armies that don't ignore it certainly works really well a wave serpent with a 2+ is amazing.. thrown in a bunch of wraith lords etc... it mounts up to pretty resilient force.
The main trait I build around is expert craters though.
Interesting. I've either faced Centurions in Marine armies or Imperial Fists. Other armies, although few in number, had difficulty against Masters of Concealment. It may be my local area. I appreciate the reply.
Tip - When you build them, make sure you file out the weapon slot and have a lot of space either side to prevent the gun scraping against the turret part and you can just swap them out.
Nice tip. I've ordered 6 of them but they are not on stock atm.
UKGW sold out as well I got 2 more on ordder making a pack of 6. I guess everybody is jumping on the bandwagon. I played them before it was cool though Yeah ill be runing 6, I think 9 is just taking the cheese to a whole new level so I won't go full 9 personally Probably would If I was tournamenting
I've had very good results with D-cannon. They're a bit terrain-dependent, but since battlefields in my area tend to have lots of LOS-blocking terrain in the middle (I think this is an ITC thing?) the D-cannon usually have a nice place to hide. Combine a battery with a Warp Hunter or two and your LOS-ignoring guns can sweep heavy units off the table.
Vibro cannon are good, too. Four or more is the way to go. I've played with up to six, which do decently good work, especially for the points. They do like being screened or otherwise covered by your army; if you just leave them hanging out on the flank they risk being mobbed in melee.
They have a coherency of 6" so if an enemy commits so far into the backfield just to take out a 35 pts unit its done its job by then I think.
Mine have always been ignored as they have more pressing concerns such as chargin wraith lords and wraith guard wave serpents and dark reapers..
That's what I mean by "covered by your army." I usually don't literally screen mine; I force the enemy to deal with aggressively advancing Wraith(nouns), while the support weapons loiter behind the battle line. You do have to be careful about them getting pinned down by land speeders, outflanking troops, or what have you -- that's something you can usually counter with careful planning, but you need to devote at least a little thought to it.
kingheff wrote: Has anyone tried illic recently? He seems like a decent, cheap sniper.
I was thinking about a spearhead with him and 3 prisms in a separate detachment. Alaitoc may not be what it was but -1 to hit still isn't bad, especially when linked fire is so good. Nice little plug in detachment, illic is unusual in that he's not a support character and hitting on 2, wounding on 2 with a -3 ap flat 3 damage gun seems pretty tasty.
Illic is good, especially a non-targetable objective camper that can lend some character sniping or do some damage to things like Aggressors or characters without invulns. The big drawbacks to Illic: 1) he locks you into Alaitoc (which may not necessarily be a bad thing if you build around it) and 2) he baits you into wanting to use a CP re-roll when you inevitably roll that one. I find this to be a trap most of the time.
I've found that he's best in the role of sitting on an objective and just adding some damage to minor characters or elite infantry type of units
Was hoping to get a feel for how this list would work for a 1k pts level list:
Spoiler:
Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) No Force Org Slot
Craftworld Attribute
*Custom Craftworld*
Selections: Diviners of Fate, Wrath of the Dead
Not really planning on playing this in particularly competitive environments (i.e., not planning on going to any tournaments) but also hoping it doesn't really get rolled. Anything I should tweak?
Without going too in depth I'd say swap out one unit of axes for swords, you are lacking volume of dice somewhat.
I would probably go for double cannons and catapults on the lord's personally, not sure how that works out with the points but having them advance up the table clearing chaff will make holes for the blades and guards to exploit. Are the guard going in the webway?
I think you'd be better off taking a single, larger unit of Wraithblades. Then, give one of your Spiritseers Protect/Jinx, and boost the Wraiths' save to 2+/3++. That unit can really dominate the battlefield and force the enemy to deal with it.
Of course you'd need another Elite choice at that point; maybe drop a Wraithlord and/or a Spiritseer and slip in another unit of Wraithguard or sword-armed Wraithblades?
If you take a Wraith Host from the Vigilus book your warlord can grant rerolls to charges and there's a stratagem that grants extra attacks, both of which seem good for your army.
Saber wrote: I think you'd be better off taking a single, larger unit of Wraithblades. Then, give one of your Spiritseers Protect/Jinx, and boost the Wraiths' save to 2+/3++. That unit can really dominate the battlefield and force the enemy to deal with it.
Of course you'd need another Elite choice at that point; maybe drop a Wraithlord and/or a Spiritseer and slip in another unit of Wraithguard or sword-armed Wraithblades?
Swapping out a spiritseer for a bonesinger would be fluffy and fill the slot. He might get some use patching up all the wraiths.
Ugh. I'd forgotten that rules for stuff are in like half a dozen different locations.
If I were to drop one of the Wraithlords to get more numbers on the table, I'm guessing I should forgo the Ghostglaive Wraithlord in favor of more wraithblades, right?
I think something like this might be quite fun. Its pretty similar to what was suggested.
I think masters of concealment and wrath of the dead are very fluffy traits. Like a an army of shrouded angry ghost constructs charging straight at you.
You'd pay 1 Cp to have the wraithguard in the web way and drop them on top of something big and juicy.
This leaves you 2 CP to play with for either 1 turn of passing the invuln to the DS'd wraithguard if you co-ordinate with your wraith seer who should be pelting it up the board in a wave serpent filled with wraith blades right at the juicy targets.
or 2 rounds of extra attack strategem. you can do it on blades and also add supreme disdain on top to really dice something up... or give it to the big blob of wraith guard who can fall back and shoot and would then have 2 attcks a piece in CC. Their fists are actually really good with being D3 dmg and -1..
I wish you could opt for the axe or sword variant to fight with fists.. lol
Without building around a battalion then this sort of thing is the best we can do probably.
You could potentially change one of the traits to master crafters. Master crafters and wrath of the dead would give a lot of re-rolls but you'd loose on the durability borne from cover.
Are we certain that the Bonesinger is meant to be an Elite choice? The datasheet says HQ, while the points listing says Elite. Has there been some sort of official clarification?
kingheff wrote: The bonesinger is a character but an elite, not an hq, similar to apocathary in marine lists.
No he means the Bonesinger datasheet in Legends show him as an HQ choice (skull icon)
Instead the previous elite one shown in older entries (crux terminatus)
kingheff wrote: The bonesinger is a character but an elite, not an hq, similar to apocathary in marine lists.
No he means the Bonesinger datasheet in Legends show him as an HQ choice (skull icon)
Instead the previous elite one shown in older entries (crux terminatus)
That is exactly the source of my confusion; Legends has the skull icon on the datasheet, but the points list the Bonesinger as an Elites choice.
Playing it as an Elite choice is probably the safer option as that's what it was before, but GW has certainly done random stuff like this before so who knows?
Been playing with this list recently as there are now a lot of marines at my local while still maintaining some semblance of a take all comers list.
I think the obvious changes that could be made is to drop the Dark Reapers but they have been really effective when hidden well and with psychic support and the potential for an added 6 inches to their weapons they're a real menace and do well against intercessors.
There is no sheet for Bonesinger now, other than in Legends. That means that they're +20pts and an HQ choice, full stop. Anything else is a house rule and while that's cool and all, is not in the rules of the game.
So yeah, my understanding is that if you're playing Legends, it's an HQ, if you're not, it no longer exists as a unit.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Been playing with this list recently as there are now a lot of marines at my local while still maintaining some semblance of a take all comers list.
I think the obvious changes that could be made is to drop the Dark Reapers but they have been really effective when hidden well and with psychic support and the potential for an added 6 inches to their weapons they're a real menace and do well against intercessors.
grouchoben wrote: There is no sheet for Bonesinger now, other than in Legends. That means that they're +20pts and an HQ choice, full stop. Anything else is a house rule and while that's cool and all, is not in the rules of the game.
So yeah, my understanding is that if you're playing Legends, it's an HQ, if you're not, it no longer exists as a unit.
Except for the fact that he's litteraly listed in CA 2019 as 55 pts model. Since CA was released after legends, it is the official book source.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Been playing with this list recently as there are now a lot of marines at my local while still maintaining some semblance of a take all comers list.
I think the obvious changes that could be made is to drop the Dark Reapers but they have been really effective when hidden well and with psychic support and the potential for an added 6 inches to their weapons they're a real menace and do well against intercessors.
Id try 3x3 reapers. Tou get a lot more value out of exarch traits and expert crafters and dont have to worry about guide.
I am personally not a fan of MSU reapers. Guide on the big unit in an army that hasn't got many other guide targets and the ability to get it to go off with focus will I find is immensely more valuable than a single reroll.
While MSU is useful in some aspects, they also can't be fire and faded into LoS blocking cover, or used as a good forewarned target with the Farseer.
Niiru wrote: Just curious what would be the recommended craftworld trait / custom traits for a small (750pts) wraith-heavy list?
Something like:
Spiritseer
Wraithseer
Guardian Squad
Wraithblades x6
2x Wraithlords (sword + shuriken cannons)
Was thinking Expert Crafters + something would be good. I did consider Wrath of the Dead, as well as Hail of Doom.
Suggestions?
my go-to with wraiths is Headstrong + wrath of the dead.
Expert crafters brings very little to big squads of wraiths, and since youre not running backfield lords, its basically unneeded.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Been playing with this list recently as there are now a lot of marines at my local while still maintaining some semblance of a take all comers list. I think the obvious changes that could be made is to drop the Dark Reapers but they have been really effective when hidden well and with psychic support and the potential for an added 6 inches to their weapons they're a real menace and do well against intercessors.
Id try 3x3 reapers. Tou get a lot more value out of exarch traits and expert crafters and don't have to worry about guide.
I am personally not a fan of MSU reapers. Guide on the big unit in an army that hasn't got many other guide targets and the ability to get it to go off with focus will I find is immensely more valuable than a single reroll. While MSU is useful in some aspects, they also can't be fire and faded into LoS blocking cover, or used as a good forewarned target with the Farseer.
Then just don't guide? I don't even bother taking it anymore. Doom/smite/executioner and autarch reroll 1's.
I find having 3 exarchs in 3 different places on the board is better than 1 big blob. I like presenting 3 separate targets as opposed to 1 juicy target. If you layer lots more saturation on top as well as take advantage of their long range, most people won't bother wasting long-range firepower vs them because having MSU means they have to be severely overkilled(they are only T3 1 w models but with a 2+ in cover, they can shake most small arms/bolter shots) or risk having an exarch with 1 W and a tempest launcher chiling behing some LOS terrain for the rest of the game... Making people split shots and not allow focus fire is my style though. I like to use them more as fire support rather than the main damage dealers.
Having a big blob with guide certainly deletes stuff and works great too. I won't argue with that.
Then just don't guide? I don't even bother taking it anymore.
Doom/smite/executioner and autarch reroll 1's.
ever since we got expert crafters i've been skipping doom/guide in all my lists. I usually run my farseer with fortune + executioner but thats because i'll usually run wraithblades that i want to protect+fortune+LFR
Does anyone put Wraithguard sword Axe and shield to footslog up with a warlock or are they exclusively Deepstruck/Wave serpented to the front line in your armies?
Im planning on running more wraith units and Im curious what other generals are running?
Does anyone put Wraithguard sword Axe and shield to footslog up with a warlock or are they exclusively Deepstruck/Wave serpented to the front line in your armies?
Im planning on running more wraith units and Im curious what other generals are running?
Axe+Shield can technically slog up the board on foot but you need to dumb a lot of resources into them to keep them alive (Protect, Fortune, LFR, Conceal, etc.) and to get them there (Quicken, matchless agility x2, ghostwalk)
Swords and Guards are just too fragile for their points and they basically HAVE to be protected somehow.
I personally always get 6 of them in a wave serpent with the -1 to hit engine when it advances. Put LFR on it and you force your opponent to break one nut open before getting to another layer of resilient models. Ive rarely had my wave serpent destroyed on turn 1(dont put it in a spot where their whole army can see it either.
Deepstriking is also an option but you have to make a custom craftworld with Headstrong (+1 to charges) and put Ghostwalk (+2 charge) on them. Needing a 6" charge has a lot more change of being successful than the traditional 9", especially if you have a wraithseer in there to make them charge on 3d6, keep the highest.
I feel like wraiths are a good solution to current marines because of their high toughness. They really fit well in a "hammer and anvil" type of list.
Does anyone put Wraithguard sword Axe and shield to footslog up with a warlock or are they exclusively Deepstruck/Wave serpented to the front line in your armies?
Im planning on running more wraith units and Im curious what other generals are running?
I use footslogging Wraithblades with axes on a regular basis. I'm not winning any tournaments (or even playing in them), but it does alright in casual games. The advantage of the unit is that it's reasonably difficult to kill and the opponent has to deal with them because they can kill pretty much anything in melee. It also allows you to control the center of the board, which can be quite useful in some scenarios.
I find it's usually sufficient to buff them with Protect and LFR; Fortune is nice, too, but not necessary. A Spiritseer with Protect/Jinx and Ghostwalk (from the Runes of Fortune) is usually all the buffing they need. They don't do well against things with a minimum 3 damage, like certain Imperial guns and close combat Dreadnoughts.
It also helps to attack the enemy with multiple threats at once -- deepstriking Wraithguard, bikes, planes, etc. Just throw as much dangerous stuff at the enemy as you can. A well-built army can kill most of a unit of Wraithblades in a turn, but if the enemy focuses on the Wraiths he's not killing your other units. And if the enemy tries to tie your Wraithblades up with a disposable unit, your other units can come in and help clear the Wraiths off.
I used to run alitoic with swords blades and spirit seer inside a WS with both engine updates+spirit stones and Shuri cannons for a 2d6" +16" movement -2/-3 serpent bombing towards the most critical part of their line. Very fun especially if they take the bait and get scared of measily dmg 1 swords LFR that bad boy for a -3 to really rub it in.
Now days for fun I take 5 axes(or d-schythes) in a serpent with CTM plus twin heavy(EML or BL) + spirit stones with master crafters and concealment to go with the rest of the army and go character hunting. Have ghost walk/protect on spirit seer with seer of the shifting vector. And have another unit of wraithguard DS. ideally in specialist detachment. +1a attack is good value for 2 CP..
Im currently working on an alitoic list built around DS spirit seer and blades. Seer with shiftrshoud of alassanar to avid paying 2 CP to DS him in.
I run 5 with a spirit seer(protect) and warlock(quicken) and it has always performed well. My scythes and swords go in serpents with guard in DS. It seems to be the most effective way to run those units IMHO.
kryczek wrote: I run 5 with a spirit seer(protect) and warlock(quicken) and it has always performed well. My scythes and swords go in serpents with guard in DS. It seems to be the most effective way to run those units IMHO.
Yeah I think I'll need to do this. My final casual list is looking like Falcons with Dire Avengers, Wave serpents with Scythes + Warlock and deepstriking the wraithblades in to be a distraction carnifex
I ran it at 1k vs UM tonight but I only had the seer with them. They really need the mobility of a quick-lock and the full investment is only for 2k+ in future IMHO.
That's me been utterly gubbbed by UM and IH in recent weeks, by crikey they are tough. Unit's just vaporise, mega frustrating.
replaying UM at 1.5k again shortly in a semi narrative mission from CA19 (pg29) the trap is sprung.
List I'm going to try is 2x battallion for 13CP, CWtrait: ignore cover and X?
Farseer: SS, Doom, Executioner,
Farseer: SS, Fortune, Mind war,
Autarch: stock,
Warlock: SS, Protect
5 DA with ex: 2x a-cats X5, (In WS)
18 defenders: 1xSC, (webway)
WW: 2 starcannon,
WL: 2 starcannon, Glaive,
WS Tw StCannon, SC, CTM, X3
I'm unsure of 2nd part of trait although I'm considering Masters of Concealent, warlord and DA powers and if anyone has any suggestions it would be appreciated.
I think cramming 2 battalions in a 1.5k game is not going to work. Sadly, If you are looking to have a fair chance vs marines you have to take the most efficient options possible and be rutheless with your builds. Our troops/ wraiths, and HQs to a degree, are sadly not great.
Im going to finaly et to play a game tomorrow. Got a variation of the same concept in different formats. A sniping wraith built hybrid type lists. Mainly im just wanting to use the new midels I have been working on really... lol.
So Let me know which ones ya'll favirites and if theres anything that clearly wont work:
SO Im pretty attached to my wraithlords having ghost glaives and shuriken cannons. They are modelled with cool swords and shuricanon a piece so I find it realy hard to let go lol. The Wraithseers can be loaded out with anything as they are magnetised (apart from wraith cannons.. havent looked into modeling those plus I fully expect them to drop that option come FW update as they dont come with the kit). D cannon loook cool but at 35pts they just expensive on a model tat wants to be advancing/moving.
Also trying to fit shadow specters and warp spiders wherever possible because they cool units. However they want to be alitoic which is hard to fit into the overall army as expert crafters and concealment is mostly what the big wraiths want. However this creates opportunity of getting the wraithguard in the webway with a spirit seer for only 1 CP thanks to shiftshroud of altsanar. Anywya. Im pretty torn on this I need to make a decision and pack my gak at some points. Will be up vs deathguard. Last time was lots of marines and pox walkers plus those crazy flamer characters and the blight haulers. I experct to be up against 2-3 BPC.. Kind want 2 battalions so that I can heal my wraiths with tears of isha nad bone snger and have enough left over for extra atatcl start /invuln on wraithguard when they come out of DS.
I think its clear what im going for. Not sure how effective this is going to be though lol.
EDIT:
I played with list no.2 vs deathguard: Defiler, 3 PBC, 3 Blighhaulers, pox walkers, 1 marines, termies and two flamer dudes, 2 sorcerors, 2 lords I actually managed to Kill 2 PBCs the defiler and one blighauler plus all of his sorcerers and flamer dudes and most pox walkers by T3 but only had two wrath seers left and 2 units of reapers. I pretty much lost the game due to my own poor tactical decisions..Not knowing enemies army. I didn't screen my backside properly, thought the defiler has disgustingly resilient so didn't go for it, gave up my wave serpent way too easily as I overestimated PBC's flamers, and also forgot the wraith seers psychic powers all the time lol. I think the terrain didn't help as he could hide his characters from my sniping quite easily. Also he rolled 5's and 6's way above average his entire game for his disgustingly resilient so that did not help. Like he shrugged 8/11 wounds from 2 BL shots and made countless saves. Putting both wraiths and spirit seer in reserve was a mistake and waste of 2 CP which would have allowed for an LFR. Will play this list again soon because I liked using the models. But Would like to try same thing with alitoic and have a couple of spectres and warp spiders for screening...
How do you guys feel about warp spiders now? I've had some decent success with deepstriking + the exarch surprise assault power. Free re-rolls to hit anywhere on the board is pretty awesome for grabbing objectives
So I've been interested in playing Eldar but have no idea where to start. It seems like there a lot of useful tools but what would be a solid core to start building around?
Helvost wrote: How do you guys feel about warp spiders now? I've had some decent success with deepstriking + the exarch surprise assault power. Free re-rolls to hit anywhere on the board is pretty awesome for grabbing objectives
Funnily enough I just run 9 spiders on Friday. Was up against 23 shining spears, 3 prisms and 2 night spinners.
I really like them and they are really cool models. But I think they are too pricey for what they bring. Surprise assult is awesome, but even with doom they struggled to degrade a fire prisms. ANd for chaff clearance theres just better optiosn in the form of tempest launchers and shuriken cats/hawks.
Shadow spectres seem infinitely better. (I run those as well )
The problem is they want to be alitoic for that -2/-3/-4 So you kind of end up being forced into that detachment which is hard to reconcile.
I will be testing the same list out again thought because I really liked it and did really well with it. Wraithseer with shroud was an absolute MVP!
Might drop a couple spiders to about 6-7 and use the pts on the rest of the army as I think 9 was too much of a foot print to DS and get all in range.
I just realised I overpaid 13pts for a second star cannon on one of the lords hmm interesting. lol
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dr.Scheme wrote: So I've been interested in playing Eldar but have no idea where to start. It seems like there a lot of useful tools but what would be a solid core to start building around?
I would consider a battalion so 2x HQ and 3x Troops and a wave serpent. I think you absolutely cant go wrong.
Dire avengers are really solid troops and they are nice plastic kits.
Helvost wrote: How do you guys feel about warp spiders now? I've had some decent success with deepstriking + the exarch surprise assault power. Free re-rolls to hit anywhere on the board is pretty awesome for grabbing objectives
The problem with spiders are there guns are crap, their rules are great except their guns are crap. The need to be tweakewith at least an additional shot. Ideally they'd be similar to previous incarnations with range 15, assault 2d3, s 6 0 ap 1 d Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon, that hit is resolved with an AP of -4 instead of 0.
Helvost wrote: How do you guys feel about warp spiders now? I've had some decent success with deepstriking + the exarch surprise assault power. Free re-rolls to hit anywhere on the board is pretty awesome for grabbing objectives
The problem with spiders are there guns are crap, their rules are great except their guns are crap. The need to be tweakewith at least an additional shot. Ideally they'd be similar to previous incarnations with range 15, assault 2d3, s 6 0 ap 1 d Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon, that hit is resolved with an AP of -4 instead of 0.
That make them a nice flanker hit and run unit
I think they should go back to their second edition iteration and be flamer weapons.
I always liked the idea of a cloud of monofilament wire.
Helvost wrote: How do you guys feel about warp spiders now? I've had some decent success with deepstriking + the exarch surprise assault power. Free re-rolls to hit anywhere on the board is pretty awesome for grabbing objectives
The problem with spiders are there guns are crap, their rules are great except their guns are crap. The need to be tweakewith at least an additional shot. Ideally they'd be similar to previous incarnations with range 15, assault 2d3, s 6 0 ap 1 d Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon, that hit is resolved with an AP of -4 instead of 0.
That make them a nice flanker hit and run unit
I think they should go back to their second edition iteration and be flamer weapons.
I always liked the idea of a cloud of monofilament wire.
You can I'd stay 2d3 shots with stats o mentioned above
Dr.Scheme wrote: So I've been interested in playing Eldar but have no idea where to start. It seems like there a lot of useful tools but what would be a solid core to start building around?
What models do you like the look of? There are many potential answers to your question, and (IMHO) lots of ways to build a decent list these days, so no reason to buy/build/paint models you don’t like just because they’re not “the most optimal” or whatever
Another thing to consider - what’s your meta like? How small will you be able to play your first game? If you know someone who will play you at 500pts/25PL and maybe proxy that makes a difference too.
Helvost wrote: How do you guys feel about warp spiders now? I've had some decent success with deepstriking + the exarch surprise assault power. Free re-rolls to hit anywhere on the board is pretty awesome for grabbing objectives
The problem with spiders are there guns are crap, their rules are great except their guns are crap. The need to be tweakewith at least an additional shot. Ideally they'd be similar to previous incarnations with range 15, assault 2d3, s 6 0 ap 1 d Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon, that hit is resolved with an AP of -4 instead of 0.
That make them a nice flanker hit and run unit
I think they should go back to their second edition iteration and be flamer weapons.
I always liked the idea of a cloud of monofilament wire.
You can I'd stay 2d3 shots with stats o mentioned above
I would LOVE to see something for monofilament weapons. Like some sort of trait to add shots, or a once per battle strat that would make them go off on max -4 AP or something.
Id imagine like you can absolutely crank out the output once per battle. Something would be nice to make thematic lists with night spinners and spiders.
Currently spiders are competing with shadow specters. Who are just soo much better.
The problem with spiders is they don't do anything that other stuff doesn't do better. Guardians and dire avengers are better at killing doomed stuff and clearing chaff, other stuff is better at killing elite infantry...they just don't have anything they do particularly great, nor are they good at so many roles that it compensates for not being great at anything.
It's kinda the same problem as with striking scorpions. Except that scorpions are at least dirt cheap.
Damn, all you brahs are picking in my boys whole I've been away....
Helvost wrote: How do you guys feel about warp spiders now? I've had some decent success with deepstriking + the exarch surprise assault power. Free re-rolls to hit anywhere on the board is pretty awesome for grabbing objectives
Very useful skill, gives them a bit more dting. if you can drop them in one side of the table, kill an isolated unit, they can get half way to the other side and support where needed afterwards. Or just charged something as well.
Excited to see what the potential Phoenix lord can do.
Excited to see what the potential Phoenix lord can do.
Lets not propagate this rumour until we actually get some sort of sneak peak.. There's enough of having our hopes getting dumped on as it is... :(
On warp spiders. I'm considering running little teams of 5 to try and snipe out characters. How do you normally run yours and what traits ? Only alitoic seems to make sense to me. I found doing a bigger unit limits where you can drop down whilst getting the most out of the re-rolls.
I dunno, I don't think you're going to be able to reliably snipe many characters that matter with a MSU spider squad, assuming your opponent is competent enough to screen what needs to be screened.
It seems to me the "best" use is probably to clear out MSU objective-camper squads that they can bully with the alpha strike from surprise assault. But the trouble is the units they can actually reliably bully this way is pretty limited due to the lack of natural AP and inability to hit a charge, meaning that if you don't wipe the squad with the surprise assault you statistically aren't even likely to deny them the objective, much less take it yourself. "Hit and hope" mechanics don't really mesh that well with objective play.
They are really hurt by having to rely on luck to kill anything with an armor save.
Again the biggest problem with spiders is their guns are super weak with the current meta. Fix that and they naturally improve them. Again the other problem is that the shadow spectre basically the same niche with a better gun and always having a -1 to hit. Fixe the spiders gun and you solve as bunch of issues
The guns with free re-roll and ignore cover are not bad. The biggest problem was always "12 range. It is so short that you have problems even when DSing 9", and it makes you very vulnerable to charges. But even shooting itself is difficult as you may only have an option to target some trash instead of bigger unit you want behind 2 tau drones.
Even a +4" would help. Or bring back the warp jump in Assault phase. This is why people generally like Hawks more.
Dr.Scheme wrote: So I've been interested in playing Eldar but have no idea where to start. It seems like there a lot of useful tools but what would be a solid core to start building around?
Got a victory against UM tonight. Masterful shots and expert crafters combined with lots of star and shuri cannons seems to be the only way to go vs primaris. I even took a wraithknight tonight and he done really very well until his dice turned on him.
We did the CA 2019 Maelstrom Disruptive tactics and used the new schemes of war method for selecting tactical objectives. I must admit I'm a fan of the new CA missions and can see why folks like them. The building a deck thing is a great idea and I heartily recommend people give them a try.
table and me deployed, sorry about the quality.
Spoiler:
My list:
Spoiler:
Autarch: WL:ignore overwatch,
Farseer: SS, fortune, mind war,
DA(9): Ex:2 x a-cats, bladestorm,
DA(9): Ex:2 x a-cats, bladestorm,
Defenders (18): 1 x ShuriCannon, 1 cp to DS,
WS: twin Starcannons, 1 x shuricannon, CTM, Spirit stones,
WS: twin Starcannons, 1 x shuricannon, CTM, Spirit stones,
WW: 2x Starcannons,
WW: 2x Shuricannons,
It was a very solid list and a hard fight even though mine is pretty good for fighting primaris. The incursors, scouts and invictor in your face at the start is a helluva thing to deal with. I just could not kill his redemptor dreadnought and I had a WS on 1 wound that took so many shots at it it wasn't funny.
I think I would take the invulnerables on the DA instead of the 2x A-cats on the exarch as the blade storm makes up for his loss of shots and the invul messes with the AP minuses. Especially in a big squad.
Wraithblades had no luck with quicken, back to protect I think. This would also help the DA's with their invuls.
Chapter masters and lieutenants are a brutal combo for a UM mobile gunline.
Congratulations. Interesting list. What points was this 2k? Dunno how you managed with 8 CP
I struggle hard without a dual battalion.
On another topic, I've been thinking and I think DA's are a trap still. I think at 11ppm 1 DA is not worth 2(1.8?) storm guardians.. you can get 8 SGs for the price of 5 DA's and nearly have pts left over for a star cannon. Dual cat with expert crafters is nice but at 18" its just not enough. With masters of concealment and enemy not ignoring cover they are surprisingly survivable but still give up VPs easily. Rangers likewise just dont seem to do enough if all they ae going to do is sit back and hug an objective then stormies are cheaper... Stormies fare better as you can give them celestial shield or just not care about them at all. Nobody wants to shoot at storm guardians.
That Wraithknight with dual HWCs and expert crafters with Concealment is really good.
Also, while I typically play Wraithseers in a Ynnari detachment with Lost Shroud and another with Lord of Rebirth ... I must say that running one with a D-Cannon and Mark of Incomparable Hunter is absolute hilarity. Just popping characters left and right without needing LOS and also getting the Crafters re-rolls is absolute money.
wannabmoy wrote: That Wraithknight with dual HWCs and expert crafters with Concealment is really good.
Also, while I typically play Wraithseers in a Ynnari detachment with Lost Shroud and another with Lord of Rebirth ... I must say that running one with a D-Cannon and Mark of Incomparable Hunter is absolute hilarity. Just popping characters left and right without needing LOS and also getting the Crafters re-rolls is absolute money.
This is known Snipy wraithseers are fun but sadly have a major VP bullseye on their forehead haha... Star cannon works swell as well.
Really ? Seems like an awful lot pts to pay for 4x D6dmg shots...
The sword and board versions appeal to me. coz they actually cheap. Would like to try runing 3 but only have the one
wannabmoy wrote: That Wraithknight with dual HWCs and expert crafters with Concealment is really good.
Also, while I typically play Wraithseers in a Ynnari detachment with Lost Shroud and another with Lord of Rebirth ... I must say that running one with a D-Cannon and Mark of Incomparable Hunter is absolute hilarity. Just popping characters left and right without needing LOS and also getting the Crafters re-rolls is absolute money.
This is known Snipy wraithseers are fun but sadly have a major VP bullseye on their forehead haha... Star cannon works swell as well.
Really ? Seems like an awful lot pts to pay for 4x D6dmg shots...
The sword and board versions appeal to me. coz they actually cheap. Would like to try runing 3 but only have the one
The Lost Shroud Wraithseer can definitely tank a good amount of firepower and while you will give up kingslayer, it will take a ton of enemy firepower. Not saying it's ultra-competitive, but it's fun for sure!
The 2+ cover save really helps and with expert crafters you're pretty reliably putting through 7-12 damage at range. Again, I'm not saying it's the most efficient and top-level competitive option, but there's definitely play. They can be especially scary with the Vigilus Detachment with a 2+/4++/5+++ (fortune).
I've had some fun running three of them recently and they weren't as bad as you'd think with expert and concealment. I ran 1x dual HWC and 2x sun and stars. Sword and board is decent but for a few extra points, you can interact in the shooting phase and most things want to be stomped anyway.
@Argive it was 2k. I usually do have a dual battalion but we went up to 2k and I wanted the WK and had 2 drop the 2nd one. It was hard not to blow them quickly but I never used more than 1 for the first 2 turns. Autarch got me one back which was nice.
I don't think the in-cover trait works as well in my meta as we tend to have decent amount of scenery, hence why the ignores cover one works better for me. Expert crafters is just brilliant.
In respect to WK's I find that the 2 x HWC is just not really very effective and the SC/SS works better but again I think that's meta dependent as I face loads of marines. I have not tried it with expert crafters though.
wannabmoy wrote: That Wraithknight with dual HWCs and expert crafters with Concealment is really good.
Also, while I typically play Wraithseers in a Ynnari detachment with Lost Shroud and another with Lord of Rebirth ... I must say that running one with a D-Cannon and Mark of Incomparable Hunter is absolute hilarity. Just popping characters left and right without needing LOS and also getting the Crafters re-rolls is absolute money.
This is known Snipy wraithseers are fun but sadly have a major VP bullseye on their forehead haha... Star cannon works swell as well.
Really ? Seems like an awful lot pts to pay for 4x D6dmg shots...
The sword and board versions appeal to me. coz they actually cheap. Would like to try runing 3 but only have the one
The Lost Shroud Wraithseer can definitely tank a good amount of firepower and while you will give up kingslayer, it will take a ton of enemy firepower. Not saying it's ultra-competitive, but it's fun for sure!
The 2+ cover save really helps and with expert crafters you're pretty reliably putting through 7-12 damage at range. Again, I'm not saying it's the most efficient and top-level competitive option, but there's definitely play. They can be especially scary with the Vigilus Detachment with a 2+/4++/5+++ (fortune).
I've had some fun running three of them recently and they weren't as bad as you'd think with expert and concealment. I ran 1x dual HWC and 2x sun and stars. Sword and board is decent but for a few extra points, you can interact in the shooting phase and most things want to be stomped anyway.
But do you give up warlord if you have a CWE character warlord and use Exalted of ynnead to make a wraith seer a second warlord plus pick a relic for another wraithseer from the ynnari section ?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Id think bare bones triple WK pelting at the enemy full tilt sounds great. Just hope they start exploding in their lines lol.. Perhaps stick star cannons on them for a bit of dakka.
The vigilus stratagem is 3 CP for one turn of 4++ though... I've run it on blobs of wraith guard before . The extra attack start for 1 CP is where its at.
I do like my wraiths. Currently running 3 wraithlords and 2 wraithssers. Small wraiths have their own problems of being too slow and needing a fair bit of buffs :(.
I have to say, I loathe expert crafters. Because it is so good that you feel like you're giving up a lot by not taking it, but by taking it, you're locked into a pretty lame, gimmicky way of playing the game - and one that feels totally at odds with how Eldar have traditionally been built as a combined arms faction that has to utilize multiple specialized units in complementary ways to create something more than the sum of its parts.
Meanwhile expert crafters is just the complete opposite, everybody is his own self-sufficient reroll bubble, and the more alone they are, the better, because you get more benefit from the reroll gimmick.
yukishiro1 wrote: I have to say, I loathe expert crafters. Because it is so good that you feel like you're giving up a lot by not taking it, but by taking it, you're locked into a pretty lame, gimmicky way of playing the game - and one that feels totally at odds with how Eldar have traditionally been built as a combined arms faction that has to utilize multiple specialized units in complementary ways to create something more than the sum of its parts.
Meanwhile expert crafters is just the complete opposite, everybody is his own self-sufficient reroll bubble, and the more alone they are, the better, because you get more benefit from the reroll gimmick.
I disagree. I think having it as an option means you are not locked into gimmicky Doom + Guide deathblob combo... War walker squadropns, reapers, guardians etc. Instead your heavy fire elements can operate independently. For example the main downside to taking things like odd walkers, wraithlords or falcons was because you had to either waste an autarch for a pesky re-rolls 1's or a guide on like 1 model... We are free from that now and can build many different lists.
The custom traits is great in that you can then take a second detachment that specialises at melee with relic hunters and headstrong or mass shuriken infantry with extra ap/range.... I see it as having separate elements working as one but being independent enough not to be crippled by a single unit being lost. The game no longer hinges on doom/guide going off.
Of course going full MSU has its draw backs also. You give up VPs easier, and also not really being able to benefit from forewarned as you don't have any single one unit able to really put the hurt down.
That's all true. But it's what I don't like about it. I would have really preferred if PA gave us more ways to play the existing options we already had rather than just throwing up its hands and giving us something that makes obsolete the whole identity of the race. It feels like lazy design to me, especially in the way that instead of improving the traditional craftworlds it just threw in the towel on the lore having any relationship to the game.
I mean like if they really were committed to the "you get a reroll! you get a reroll! everybody gets a reroll!" thing, they could have at least allowed it to be accessed within the normal Eldar play options - say, by letting you swap out traditional guide and doom for more diffuse versions that each go on three different units instead, but with a more limited bonus, or something like that.
I totally understand that lots of people have different feelings on this than I do. But I can't help feeling like it's a big shame and a huge failure of imagination.
yukishiro1 wrote: That's all true. But it's what I don't like about it. I would have really preferred if PA gave us more ways to play the existing options we already had rather than just throwing up its hands and giving us something that makes obsolete the whole identity of the race. It feels like lazy design to me, especially in the way that instead of improving the traditional craftworlds it just threw in the towel on the lore having any relationship to the game.
I mean like if they really were committed to the "you get a reroll! you get a reroll! everybody gets a reroll!" thing, they could have at least allowed it to be accessed within the normal Eldar play options - say, by letting you swap out traditional guide and doom for more diffuse versions that each go on three different units instead, but with a more limited bonus, or something like that.
I totally understand that lots of people have different feelings on this than I do. But I can't help feeling like it's a real shame.
Without shadow of a doubt, there was a lot of good things that could and should have been done with PR book especialy when you look at marines.
Our Warlord Traitsm Relics and startegems are very very weak. We needed these improved and expanded and not a slew of near useless traits and exarch powers. Also the whole Legends thing really hurt any kind of options we had for our Autarchs.
I totally agree PA1 sucked big time. But im making good with what we got and it certainly was a bunch of sidegrades rather than upgrades.
Like alitoic is still really useful vs anything that doesn't re-roll everything. But chapter masters are a thing and they are everywhere..
Well, I'm looking for some ideas about a competitive Eldar list.
The army should have a strong fire base, say consisting of support batteries, Reapers and whatnot.
Screening is key here say by using Rangers.
The army also needs some units able to advance, to occupy mission objectives and eventually hold the center or other spots on the battle field.
An implementation of this concept can be seen by the army of Peteralmo: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/785827.page He uses tough units such as Wraithlords, Night Spinners, and Serpents to implement this idea.
Any further thoughts here?
If you're looking to cheese expert crafters, a bunch of vibro cannon platforms is hard to beat. The benefit they get out of the trait is just unreal. Though they do give up "kill more" very easily in ITC, and it's a very tedious way to play.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I'm looking for some ideas about a competitive Eldar list.
The army should have a strong fire base, say consisting of support batteries, Reapers and whatnot.
Screening is key here say by using Rangers.
The army also needs some units able to advance, to occupy mission objectives and eventually hold the center or other spots on the battle field.
An implementation of this concept can be seen by the army of Peteralmo: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/785827.page He uses tough units such as Wraithlords, Night Spinners, and Serpents to implement this idea.
Any further thoughts here?
Im looking to run a variation of this at our next tourney:
yukishiro1 wrote: That's all true. But it's what I don't like about it. I would have really preferred if PA gave us more ways to play the existing options we already had rather than just throwing up its hands and giving us something that makes obsolete the whole identity of the race. It feels like lazy design to me, especially in the way that instead of improving the traditional craftworlds it just threw in the towel on the lore having any relationship to the game.
I mean like if they really were committed to the "you get a reroll! you get a reroll! everybody gets a reroll!" thing, they could have at least allowed it to be accessed within the normal Eldar play options - say, by letting you swap out traditional guide and doom for more diffuse versions that each go on three different units instead, but with a more limited bonus, or something like that.
I totally understand that lots of people have different feelings on this than I do. But I can't help feeling like it's a big shame and a huge failure of imagination.
I think the power of Expert Crafters is getting a little over exaggerated, it has not made MSU the only option, or even the best. Lists that use one or two large units to receive buffs, backed up by MSU Crafters is the best option. PA1 has made more units viable without invalidating our previously strong choices. Big units of Dark Reapers and Shining Spears are still strong, so are the flyers, but now things like Wraithlords, War Walkers, Vibro-cannons and Falcons are good too.
Big units that require psychic buffs also got helped by PA too. Focus Will and Children of Prophecy have made it much safer to rely on these strategies, and Ghostwalk has made deepstriking Spears, Conclaves, and Wraithblades more viable.
Dark Reapers are a good example of how the old strategies still compete with EC. 3x3 Reapers with EC (as in the list above) are very nice, and don't need much support. They are not necessarily better than a blob of 10 with Guide and Doom though. After running the former for a while I've now gone back to the latter. A Farseer can easily get +3 to cast (Seer Council + Focus Will) to match the EC rerolls, but you also get Fire and Fade, LFR, Protect, and Forewarned as options.
Well, the thing with EC is how hugely and unevenly it buffs certain units. I mean sure, there are certain units that can work both ways - dark reapers being the primary example, maybe shining spears too. But then there are all these other units you basically have to take as EC if you want to be remotely competitive with them. Support platforms are the most obvious example, going from deeply marginal without EC to arguably broken with it, but they're hardly the only ones. One trait choice shouldn't improve a unit's performance by 50% or more over any other trait choice, that's really not very thoughtful game design. The fact that many of the units that benefit from EC were not very good before EC was a reason to buff those units directly, not a reason to keep them lame with every other craftworld but borderline overpowered with EC.
I generally dislike "this unit only works with this sub-faction" balance, especially when it's not even one of the lore sub-factions. It makes the old pressure to take alaitoc for certain units look negligible in comparison, and that's not a great direction to be taking the faction in my opinion.
yukishiro1 wrote: Well, the thing with EC is how hugely and unevenly it buffs certain units. I mean sure, there are certain units that can work both ways - dark reapers being the primary example, maybe shining spears too. But then there are all these other units you basically have to take as EC if you want to be remotely competitive with them. Support platforms are the most obvious example, going from deeply marginal without EC to arguably broken with it, but they're hardly the only ones. One trait choice shouldn't improve a unit's performance by 50% or more over any other trait choice, that's really not very thoughtful game design. The fact that many of the units that benefit from EC were not very good before EC was a reason to buff those units directly, not a reason to keep them lame with every other craftworld but borderline overpowered with EC.
I generally dislike "this unit only works with this sub-faction" balance, especially when it's not even one of the lore sub-factions. It makes the old pressure to take alaitoc for certain units look negligible in comparison, and that's not a great direction to be taking the faction in my opinion.
I was playing support platforms before EC and they were decent enough. Certainly not as good but good enough.
I'm sure EC will get FAQ'd to being the only trait you can take. It is just that good especially when combined with ignore cover to take it to 11 in choice of traits.
It has undoubtedly changed the utility of more units than any single rule we've had before IMHO. For example my BL vyper hasnt left my army since I started using it. Where as before it would rarely have been considered.
I'm of the mind that it's too good and won't last in it's current form.
I'm not convinced it's so overpowered it'll be nerfed (I mean, it's not like the game is very balanced right now in the first place, or that EC is the big thing everyone is angry about)...but I am afraid it'll stop us getting any other more creative and more needed attention, because EC alone is so powerful it'll keep Craftworld lists competitive, so GW won't see the need to do anything else.
Yeah as mentioned it does have its downsides. MSU style of play tends to give up kill pts easier and you cant really buff things effectively. Id certainly prefer a chaptermaster aura lol...
Argive wrote: Yeah as mentioned it does have its downsides. MSU style of play tends to give up kill pts easier and you cant really buff things effectively.
But how many GW missions use kill points? I don't know about ITC but if they are more common here, I can't see GW weighing that into the balance as ITC is basically a set of house rules (albeit a weidely used one).
I can see it helping MSU more but when combined with an autarch it's nearly as good as a chapter master. I had 3 squads of 7/8 DA's and that combined with bladestorm it became really nasty.
Argive wrote: Yeah as mentioned it does have its downsides. MSU style of play tends to give up kill pts easier and you cant really buff things effectively.
But how many GW missions use kill points? I don't know about ITC but if they are more common here, I can't see GW weighing that into the balance as ITC is basically a set of house rules (albeit a weidely used one).
Things like achieving overhelming firepower type objectives. Its dead easy if you just need to kill 2 storm guardian squads and a unit of DA
Argive wrote: Yeah as mentioned it does have its downsides. MSU style of play tends to give up kill pts easier and you cant really buff things effectively.
But how many GW missions use kill points? I don't know about ITC but if they are more common here, I can't see GW weighing that into the balance as ITC is basically a set of house rules (albeit a weidely used one).
Does it really matter? This is a tactics thread where the main focus is going to be tournament and other competitive play which ITC will be the dominant missions used.
You can still use expert crafters on big units if you want and don't have to be MSU
Argive wrote: Yeah as mentioned it does have its downsides. MSU style of play tends to give up kill pts easier and you cant really buff things effectively.
But how many GW missions use kill points? I don't know about ITC but if they are more common here, I can't see GW weighing that into the balance as ITC is basically a set of house rules (albeit a weidely used one).
Does it really matter? This is a tactics thread where the main focus is going to be tournament and other competitive play which ITC will be the dominant missions used.
You can still use expert crafters on big units if you want and don't have to be MSU
Believe it or not, plenty of people on these forums don't play in tournaments at all, and yes there is tactics involved in a game with a friend using rulebook missions. 'Competitive' isn't the same as 'tournaments'. Nor are the two terms always hand-in-hand.
Argive wrote: Yeah as mentioned it does have its downsides. MSU style of play tends to give up kill pts easier and you cant really buff things effectively.
But how many GW missions use kill points? I don't know about ITC but if they are more common here, I can't see GW weighing that into the balance as ITC is basically a set of house rules (albeit a weidely used one).
Does it really matter? This is a tactics thread where the main focus is going to be tournament and other competitive play which ITC will be the dominant missions used.
You can still use expert crafters on big units if you want and don't have to be MSU
In america. Last time I checked america isn't only country in the world.
GW doesn't balance things around ITC so if it's too good in non-ITC then ITC having kill point bleeding is and SHOULD be irrelevant for balancing game.
Argive wrote: Yeah as mentioned it does have its downsides. MSU style of play tends to give up kill pts easier and you cant really buff things effectively.
But how many GW missions use kill points? I don't know about ITC but if they are more common here, I can't see GW weighing that into the balance as ITC is basically a set of house rules (albeit a weidely used one).
Does it really matter? This is a tactics thread where the main focus is going to be tournament and other competitive play which ITC will be the dominant missions used.
You can still use expert crafters on big units if you want and don't have to be MSU
In america. Last time I checked america isn't only country in the world.
GW doesn't balance things around ITC so if it's too good in non-ITC then ITC having kill point bleeding is and SHOULD be irrelevant for balancing game.
Its still relevant if you plays ca 2019 missions with tac objectives
I.e overwhelming firepower etc.
Brigade is really hard to make work for anything competitive. The sacrifices you have to make for that extra 2CP vs just taking two battalions (because let's face it, you're going to want at least 4 HQs anyway in an eldar army, so it's not like that's an issue) are generally not worth it. And two battalions lets you maximize craftworld bonuses too, whereas with a brigade you have to commit to one.
Even putting aside the issue of having to choose a single craftworld for all of them, it's hard to see any competitive list where you'd want 6 troops choices *and* 3 elites, honestly. Wraith lists (I'm not sure you can call them competitive anyway, but for the sake of argument) aren't going to typically want to go that heavy into troops, nor are they typically going to want to split their wraiths into three squads. Maybe an asurmen bubble that also takes an avatar and banshees...but even then, three squads of them? And in that list you're not going to have room for the 3 fast attack/heavy support even though there are plenty of good options in those slots.
Yeah I hear your points. I have come up with some ideas. However the elite choice really throws a spanned in the works. Not sure I agree about wanting 4 HQ techincaly.
Currently all of my lists have a core ynnari wraithseer element so I suppose that's not strictly true.. But pure CWE characters don't really do enough outside of Farseer/warlock combo. PLs are sadly too expensive. Had a bit of fun with maugan ra recently and got an idea for a brigade with Asurmen.
Expert crafter brigade + x brigade seem like a fun idea. Ive been slotting in Minimal spectre units with prisms blasters and abonesinger or minimalist scorpions squads. But essentially the elites slots are bit of a pts waste.
I got a brigade list at 1850 pts I might run at our next tourney lol. Was wondering if anyone has had some success.
I have this mad idea to build around EC + Students of vaul..
3 bonesingers as elites, Fusion storm guardians and shredding fire DAs as troops. Vypers, platforms and war walkers for the fast and heavy slots. with the Ynnari wraithseers running point. plus a wave serpent or two if pts allow.
The idea is to move the wraithseers and stormies up the board with the psychic core for MW and taking the middle of the board wave 1. Hopefully this will absorb all of the fire power and inreturn can take the heavy guns out wth dakka or charge whatever is in range.
The wave two is to move the DAs and the rets of the stormies to slow down anything coming in all the while blasting from the backline platforms, walkers, vypers and serpents. Hopefuly by later turns there just wont be enough damage to chew through the wounds on various things due to target saturations, fire lanes and the healing.
yukishiro1 wrote: I have always considered legends and competitive play mutually exclusive.
Depends on TO's. My local allows them. However in the example above ID probably run triple/double min squads of shadow specters instead(if double go for bare bones scorpions). EC prism blaster is a nice little bit of dakka.
yukishiro1 wrote: I have always considered legends and competitive play mutually exclusive.
Why would you.
I have an Autarch on jetbike with a reaper launcher.
I've mounted her on a vyper and used the missile launcher as the reaper launcher.
GW has led me play that model in a GT. It's legendary.
I want the same Craftworld for everything and there are quite a few that fit well:
Masters of Concealment: Tanks love having a 2+ Sv and it ups the durability of the Avengers a bit more. I have the command points for Concealed positions turn one though, and if the Avengers have a 4++ then cover only helps against AP-1.
Masterful Shots: With a lot of high volume of fire, low AP shots this seems essential for everything except the Prisms.
Master Crafters: Usually the best trait, but with lots of high volume of fire units and linking Prisms I'm not sure it's as well suited to this list.
Hail of Doom/Superior Shurikens: There are a lot of Shurikens in this list so either of these seem good, I'm leaning towards the extra range rather than AP.
Ulthwe!: Am I mad?! I feel like this could actually be a good choice. Effectively 20% more wounds per tank is very good, and the Avengers would enjoy a 4++ followed by a 6+++.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, if you equipped all Serpents with shuricannons, then I would suggest Biel Tan.
Rerolling 1's is too good to pass.
I did think of that too, and I would be changing to Shuricannons on the serpents if I go with anything that buffs them. The warlord trait and relic are also very appealing, but I feel like Master Crafters + Ignore cover would probably give a bigger damage increase than reroll ones:
-With Biel Tan 12 shots from Avengers get to reroll 2 ones on average, so 2 extra shots.
-EC gets one reroll to hit, but also a reroll on the wound, which is worth 1.5 hits, so works out at 2.5 extra shots. Then you get to ignore cover on top of that.
Id try mixing and matching. You can always take 3x 10 dire avengers in one battalion and take the second with a bunch of storm guardians/rangers for CP and make that EC for heavy weapons etc..
Trying to fit everything under one craftworld just isn't optimal IMO.
I'm not normally fussy about everything being from the same craftworld, but because this list has 6 Avenger squads sharing 3 Wave Serpents I don't have much choice; one Wave Serpent has to carry two units from different detachments.
I could make this a battalion + spearhead without changing any units. That way the Prisms could get EC and MoC, while everything else gets ignore cover + superior shurikens. I'd be losing 4 CP though.
You guys are giving me more choices, not whittling them down! Thanks though.
I don't think superior shurikens is worth it with DAs, especially not if they're in transports - they have so much threat range anyway. The trait seems built for guardian bombs - being able to DS from 16 inches instead of 12 is game-changing, and it also allows you to usually shoot them T1 even if you so first, if you choose to put them on the table. Masterful shots is an auto-take in nearly any list IMO, it's deceptively powerful and makes clearing anything that double its cover save hugely easier.
I think if I was building a DA centric force(like 40+ DA) for Asurmen Id have to go with ether alitoic or ulthwe max squads with the power that improves hitting and wounding as you loose troops. Then you also need autarch so thats 213pts for 2 characters to make something like 400+ pts of 1W T3 STr4 weapon wielding infantry efective.
I just can't sell it to myself and justify doing this. Do need to test it out but not sure If getting more DA just to run this gimmick is worth it. I can do 5x5 man squads with dual cats currently so might run it in a brigade once I paint some Vypers.
Asurmen isn't just his bubble, he's also an extremely effective combat character - one of the few characters in the game that can easily get a 2++, making him an outstanding tank, and his sword has the burst potential to kill almost anything in the game, even things with high invulns. Sure, you usually won't - but the risk is always there, and that's going to make a smart opponent think twice.
But to get the most of that, you really do need a list built around the concept; I don't think just plonking Asurmen + 30+ DAs into any old list is a very good idea.
Also, avenging strikes is so powerful when it goes off on a mostly intact squad it is worth considering all kinds of gimmicks that interact with it - e.x. deliberately keeping 1MW explosion vehicles in close proximity so you can hopefully activate it on all your units for only 1 dead in each, or possibly even taking the phoenix gem on a wraithseer and then telling your opponent "strike me down, and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" There are all sorts of ways you can use this ability - both to get it, because it's so powerful, and to mess with your opponent's decision-making by making him refrain from doing certain things for fear of activating it. So again it's something you want at the center of your list-building, not just as an add-on.
yukishiro1 wrote: Asurmen isn't just his bubble, he's also an extremely effective combat character - one of the few characters in the game that can easily get a 2++, making him an outstanding tank, and his sword has the burst potential to kill almost anything in the game, even things with high invulns. Sure, you usually won't - but the risk is always there, and that's going to make a smart opponent think twice.
But to get the most of that, you really do need a list built around the concept; I don't think just plonking Asurmen + 30+ DAs into any old list is a very good idea.
Also, avenging strikes is so powerful when it goes off on a mostly intact squad it is worth considering all kinds of gimmicks that interact with it - e.x. deliberately keeping 1MW explosion vehicles in close proximity so you can hopefully activate it on all your units for only 1 dead in each, or possibly even taking the phoenix gem on a wraithseer and then telling your opponent "strike me down, and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" There are all sorts of ways you can use this ability - both to get it, because it's so powerful, and to mess with your opponent's decision-making by making him refrain from doing certain things for fear of activating it. So again it's something you want at the center of your list-building, not just as an add-on.
Yeah but then aren't you basically investing in a list that just plonks 30odd DAs and Asurmen on the table however you slice it?? I don't think they are going to be able to do the heavy lifting youre not going to get due to spending the pts on them and Asurmen as you're probably going to have to buy them some wave serpents which are pricey, tanky but not necessarily have a lot of dakka. And then he has to fight something worthwhile to earn his place.
I think he's suffering from the same problem AOK. His price pts does not reflect his threat potential as he needs to get into combat in a shooting game to make his pts back and his optimal targets are kind of limited.I just feel its not likely he will often get to fight something he wants to fight.
To be fair I need to use him and see how he does and how much of blender he is in practice and see how his support helps.
I've experimented with maugan ra but he didn't really do enough for his pts. But that was mainly not being bale to roll more than 2 for his wounds despite hitting all of the times lol
Well the way that list works you don't take wave serpents, you use the DAs as a bubblewrap for your characters. But it works because they're actually a very dangerous bubblewrap, and one that goes super saiyan mode if you start killing it, so your opponent has to target the squads one by one and wipe them or else they become incredibly powerful. A 9-man DA squad with avenging strikes activated shooting a doomed target is shooting 20 shots that hit on 2s, wound on 2s/3s/4s against T3/T4/T5-T7(!), rerolling wounds, with all the 5s and 6s hitting at -3 AP. That's crazy good damage for 113 points - so good that your opponent simply can't allow it to happen, so they can't shoot at a DA squad at all unless they're sure they can kill at least half the models.
It's funny you mention the Avatar because IMO this is the one list where he can actually work. The best thing about the Avatar is the morale immunity and charge reroll bubble, and you actually get good use out of that in the list, especially if you take a couple cheap banshee squads too (don't forget Asurmen's bubble gives a 5+ to other aspect warriors, too).
I definitely wouldn't take wave serpents, a lot of the attraction of the list is that you can cause your opponent to waste their anti-tank weapons shooting sub-optimal targets. So ideally you don't want to be taking anything that lets them make too much use out of that part of their army, at least not on T1.
I don't think it's top-tier competitive itself, but what it is is so totally different from any other eldar list that you can take a lot of opponents completely by surprise.
Yeah a cheeky biel-tan detachment with banshees AOK and asurmen seems fun.
Certainly not competitive... lol 11ppm T3 1W models against any kind of bolter...in the current meta :(
I'm planning to use AOK with 3x 16 man storm guardian with fusion squads to max out his fearless bubble utility. Thinking of giving him mark of hunter to see if I can fusion sword blast snipe some characters
At the moment I seem to circle back to a alitoic detachments just for for shadow specters. I like the models too much to drop them lol
I think it's actually more competitive than people think. Not absolutely top-tier, granted, but a lot better than people give it credit for. Someone did quite well with an Asurblob not that long ago at a major tournament.
yukishiro1 wrote: Asurmen isn't just his bubble, he's also an extremely effective combat character - one of the few characters in the game that can easily get a 2++, making him an outstanding tank, and his sword has the burst potential to kill almost anything in the game, even things with high invulns. Sure, you usually won't - but the risk is always there, and that's going to make a smart opponent think twice.
But to get the most of that, you really do need a list built around the concept; I don't think just plonking Asurmen + 30+ DAs into any old list is a very good idea.
Also, avenging strikes is so powerful when it goes off on a mostly intact squad it is worth considering all kinds of gimmicks that interact with it - e.x. deliberately keeping 1MW explosion vehicles in close proximity so you can hopefully activate it on all your units for only 1 dead in each, or possibly even taking the phoenix gem on a wraithseer and then telling your opponent "strike me down, and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!" There are all sorts of ways you can use this ability - both to get it, because it's so powerful, and to mess with your opponent's decision-making by making him refrain from doing certain things for fear of activating it. So again it's something you want at the center of your list-building, not just as an add-on.
Well despite appearances that list I posted wasn't really designed as an Asurmen list. I only put ass man in after I decided to go with 6x5 Avenger units to fill out my Wave Serpents, previously his slot was taken by an Autarch. It seemed rude not to put him in with that many avengers. I also like the idea of a 10 man Dark Reaper unit getting a 4++ save with protect on. Putting Protect on the man himself gives a 2++ in hand to hand which could catch people out.
I may run the list as 3x10 Avengers with Avenging Strikes for a bit of fun, but I don't expect that to be a thing that ever works. As powerful as AS could be I don't imagine it will ever be as useful as having twice the number of objective grabbers and 5 more command points.
Because I have too much time on my hands I decided to compare the damage output of 10 Avenging Strike DAs vs 2x5 Bladestorm DAs shooting marines:
So the Avenging Strikes unit starts off worse due to having one less Exarch and no Bladestorm. It also ends worse as it has one less wound. In between is the extra damage you get in exchange for less units and less CP.
I'd say that 2x5 Bladestorm Dire Avengers are better than 10 Avenging Strikes Dire Avengers. Unless the stars align and you get a little bit more damage, which still may not be worth the cost to CP.
Interesting math on the ASDAs. What are the base kill values? I.e. 1.89 extra kills compared to how many?
The cool thing about AS though in my mind is that it doesn't just make you great at killing marines, it makes you good at killing anything. The +1 to wound allows you to shred anything T7 or below, and even makes you dangerous to T8 (literally doubling your damage). Having a 113 point troops unit that is a legitimate threat to all toughness and all armor levels is pretty cool.
I agree it's not worth taking DAs in bigger squads if it costs you 4cp. But I don't think it would in any list I'd make.
Yeah, there's no doubt that activating it is the hard part. A smart opponent will just not shoot them at all until they're ready to wipe the unit. I think to really make AS work you need a plan that takes advantage of that by using the threat of AS activation to force hard choices. I.e. either have a build that forces them to shoot the DAs or shoot nothing, or that makes it very risky for them to shoot something else they want to shoot (e.g. if you have three EC war walkers right by your DAs, that's a 1/2 chance of activating all three squads if your opponent kills them).
I definitely don't think AS is an optimal choice for DAs that are just filling out troop choices in a normal build.
I played illic nightspear today.. had sniping reaper autarch as well as 2 squads of rangers. Couldint even kill one 4W nurgle character between them lol...
But thats more dice and poor terrain board placing rather than anything else though. But I liked illic. His 2+/2+ to wound and hit is decent. not as versetile as reaper autarch for sure but maybe a good enough substitute. I wish he had some buff for rangers.
He's not bad, he just really suffers the same thing most early-codex snipers suffer from - that they just can't compete with the much more powerful eliminators. Somewhere down the line GW decided that units with snipe didn't have to pay a big power tax any more, so the old units feel left in the dust - not because they're terrible, just just because they're not nearly as good as the more recent versions.
I mean, he costs only 13 points less than an eliminator squad - 83% of the cost - and it's very, very hard to argue he provides 83% of the value.
yukishiro1 wrote: He's not bad, he just really suffers the same thing most early-codex snipers suffer from - that they just can't compete with the almost absurdly more powerful eliminators. Somewhere down the line GW decided that units with snipe didn't have to pay a big power tax any more, so the old units feel left in the dust - not because they're terrible, just just because they're not nearly as good as the more recent versions.
It feels like he should give a buff to alitoic rangers or be an elite slot. Doesnt quite seem right as he is IMO. He's gone down in pts but still too expensive as you say compared to eliminators.
Yeah, I don't think just lowering his points cost even more is the right call. I mean you could make him 50 points and then he'd be efficient...but that's such a boring way of doing balance.
I'm not a huge fan of auras either, I think 8th has was too many auras already. I'd rather have something unique that's tied to his shooting - maybe any character hit by a shot from him gets -1 to their saving throws, or any character wounded halves their movement, or something like that?
I've played something similar several times and it's definitely effective. With so many CP I'd drop a serpent and put two of the avenger squads in the webway. That would give you points for an autarch and shuriken cannons for the serpents plus maybe vectored engines?
For traits I'd go for hail of doom and masters of concealment. Have you gone for bladestorm on the exarchs? I think it's amazing with hail of doom, those extra hits really add up, especially with overwatch.
I'll probably take bladestorm, but I might go with shredding fire if I take expert crafters. The maths is longwinded but IIRC they work out the same vs 4+ saves, then shredding fire is better against better saves, with bladestorm better against worse saves. Without expert crafters bladestorm is better.
MoC and Hail of doom seem slightly at odds with each other, as they turn off/on at 12". That might be OK though as MoC is good early game and HoD is better later.
Masters of concealment will help keep your vehicles alive to drop off the hail of doom troops which also helps the serpents dakka out a lot. It seems a bit of a counter intuitive combo but I've found it great in my games.
Expert crafters is great but it's of virtually no use for anti chaff units like guardians, windriders, hawks etc where hail of doom and masterful shots prove more useful. Masterful shots is great for reapers too, marines in cover are pretty resilient to reaper fire, forcing them back to a 5+ is pretty sweet.
I run a lot of wraithlords/wraithseers and serpent with star cannons and bright lances so I feel masterful shots only really helps out the tempest reapers. Normal AT 3dmg shots tend to go into vehicles anyway which rarely get cover.
I think im going to go back to concealment. You are a scissors to somoenes rock if they are ignoring cover but against everyone else it makes a difference in survivability. DA with a 3+ are deceptively survivable. Also Ramgers are not limited to being on terrain.
I've switched to Masterful shots instead of concealment and got around the cover issue by trying to get as many invulnerable saves as possible.
I think my meta skews me toward that though as we tend to have a bit more scenery than the average. Also a lot of MEQ in my group and leaving them with 6 saves when they're in cover is too good when you're packing star and shuriken cannons.
In regards to rangers, even when they're in cover they still die like the chaff that they are. I've tried Illic and up to 15 rangers in many combos and they just don't work for me. DA's in any combo does work for me every time.
I find it's so easy to get a cover save from normal terrain that MoC is only really useful for flyers and maybe things that want to move towards the enemy, like close combat wraithlords or wave serpents. Even then they're only benefiting for a turn. I suppose that if your normal tables are sparse on terrain then MoC would be useful, but for fire-support tanks it's usually trivially easy to hover partially over a ruin and then get obscured by other things.
kryczek wrote: I've switched to Masterful shots instead of concealment and got around the cover issue by trying to get as many invulnerable saves as possible.
I think my meta skews me toward that though as we tend to have a bit more scenery than the average. Also a lot of MEQ in my group and leaving them with 6 saves when they're in cover is too good when you're packing star and shuriken cannons.
In regards to rangers, even when they're in cover they still die like the chaff that they are. I've tried Illic and up to 15 rangers in many combos and they just don't work for me. DA's in any combo does work for me every time.
True but when they are alitoic you can make them a 6 to hit which is nice to sink disproportionate amount of firepower into them if they want to deny you the pts.. I think in my last 5 games when I actually took rangers nobody shot at them more than once.
Just wondering if anyone has tried a quickened guardian bomb for a first turn banzai across the board?
I'd like to give it a go soon but I've got a few other things I want to try out first.
kingheff wrote: Just wondering if anyone has tried a quickened guardian bomb for a first turn banzai across the board?
I'd like to give it a go soon but I've got a few other things I want to try out first.
I haven't thought about it, but why would you? Being in the webway means they can't get shot to pieces and are guaranteed to get a full volley off when they come in? For 1 CP it just seems the far superior option
kingheff wrote: Just wondering if anyone has tried a quickened guardian bomb for a first turn banzai across the board?
I'd like to give it a go soon but I've got a few other things I want to try out first.
Well, if you think an alpha strike is useful, go for it.
Against Tau, annihilating marker lights is definitely useful.
Yeah, I was thinking about an alpha strike. Or possibly if you want something else in the webway, maybe even another guardian bomb.
With the 4++ strat being so cheap and so many decent buffs that can be used to make them really annoying to remove they can absorb lots more enemy firepower than their points suggest.
kingheff wrote: Yeah, I was thinking about an alpha strike. Or possibly if you want something else in the webway, maybe even another guardian bomb.
With the 4++ strat being so cheap and so many decent buffs that can be used to make them really annoying to remove they can absorb lots more enemy firepower than their points suggest.
Storm guardian bodies though..cheaper if they only there for dying right
The advantage of defenders over stormies is that they can dump out 40 shots after double moving/advancing.
I have played around with a maxed out storm guardian blob protecting characters but they don't have the first turn (with quicken) damage potential of defenders.
It's actually pretty funny how tough you can make defenders with platforms. For example,, with the 4++ strat, protect and fortune a rapid firing tactical squad with a captain and lieutenant do less than .7 of a wound. 5 Intercessors with bolt rifles, a chapter master and lieutenant do just over 1.5 wounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another question, what are our best deepstriking melee units?
I've been thinking about a combo of a farseer with ghost walk and a warlock with focus will. With seer council focus will goes off on a five, ghost walk now goes off on 3 with runes to reroll if denying is an issue.
So assuming the above goes off and taking headstrong as a custom craftworld trait that means your deepstriking unit can get in on a 6+ charge, that's really pretty reliable. The wraith host warlord trait makes the wraith units more reliable still. Same goes for saim Han spears, though they now get a 7" reroll charge.
Personally I'm looking at 10 axe blades coming in from the webway, with their footprint they can charge multiple units easily and soak up so much damage with protect and fortune as to make them horribly inefficient to shoot. I should have mine finished in time for my game this week so I'm looking forward to trying it out.
Currently I am running 5 axe blades in a ynnari detatchment. The idea is to have them ds in range of wraith seer for a 3d6 discard lowest charge and a +1 to hit from stfd. Certainly not as reluable as ghostwalk+headstrong but pretty self sufficient.
20 guardians with two platforms, 4++ strat, protect and fortune is pretty much immovable. 2+/3++/5+++ with 24 wounds, 4 of which have the 2+, and 22 different models, so high damage weapons are nearly useless. You can even put LFR and/or conceal on them if you really want to for another -1/-2 to hit, but that's overkill in 99% of situations. They're also deadly with doom up on literally anything in the game. Hugely cost-effective at 190 points.
Of course, the big weakness is they evaporate without the psychic support and the CP investment.
yukishiro1 wrote: 20 guardians with two platforms, 4++ strat, protect and fortune is pretty much immovable. 2+/3++/5+++ with 24 wounds, 4 of which have the 2+, and 22 different models, so high damage weapons are nearly useless. You can even put LFR and/or conceal on them if you really want to for another -1/-2 to hit, but that's overkill in 99% of situations. They're also deadly with doom up on literally anything in the game. Hugely cost-effective at 190 points.
Of course, the big weakness is they evaporate without the psychic support and the CP investment.
BUT that's 190 pts needing 1 cp for celestial shield, 1 CP for seer council to ensure protect doom guide goes off, and then vey likely another 2 CP to keep them from failing morale and fleeing (unless you going alitoic with puritanical leader in which case further 2 CP for LFR to stack on top of alitoic). Seer council is bit o an auto spend anyway in any situation in my opinion. Ive been shirked by dice too many times not to do it every turn lol. They sure as hell hold the objective you want them to hold. I might go back to guardian bomb without but without platforms + storm guardian bomb without fusion. Start one unit on the board for early objective holding and DS the other unit to capture further objectives. The trouble is storm bolters are a thing. Will rejig one of my lists to see if I can make it stick.
Someone has to devote a pretty ridiculous amount of firepower to your squad to require you to spend the 2CP on the auto-pass morale. At that point they're basically shooting their whole army at your guardian squad...which means you're probably winning that game handily.
yukishiro1 wrote: Someone has to devote a pretty ridiculous amount of firepower to your squad to require you to spend the 2CP on the auto-pass morale. At that point they're basically shooting their whole army at your guardian squad...which means you're probably winning that game handily.
Not really with the ROF in the form of storm bolters etc its not that difficult to find.
I think the platforms are definitely worth it because of how you can allocate saves, 0 ap on the platforms for a 2+, any ap at all on the guardians for the 3++, losing 8ppm makes them great for frustrating your opponent.
I remember a game when my thousand son opponent was feeling great because he killed something like 15 storm guardians in the psychic phase until I pointed out that he'd done less than 100 PTS of damage.
Shadenuat wrote: Annihilating what? Tau use characters and strat for markers nowadays.
I know, this is really bad news.
This was different in the 7th ed when it was possible to annihilate most of the marker lights in round one. Hello Warwalkers appearing at a flank.
yukishiro1 wrote: Someone has to devote a pretty ridiculous amount of firepower to your squad to require you to spend the 2CP on the auto-pass morale. At that point they're basically shooting their whole army at your guardian squad...which means you're probably winning that game handily.
Not really with the ROF in the form of storm bolters etc its not that difficult to find.
A guardian squad with conceal/celestial shield / fortune takes about 1 wound per 15 bolter shots from MEQ (assuming the shots have AP so you take it on the guardians, if they have 0AP or -1AP and you're in cover it becomes even more ridiculous if you take them on the platforms), or per 11ish shots with chaptermaster/lieutenant buffs. So you're looking at needing like 75 or 60ish with buffs to be getting to the point where it's even worth thinking about spending the cp for the morale pass, and over 100 to the point where it becomes a no-brainer. If they're devoting that much firepower to your guardian squad, things are going pretty well for you.
yukishiro1 wrote: Someone has to devote a pretty ridiculous amount of firepower to your squad to require you to spend the 2CP on the auto-pass morale. At that point they're basically shooting their whole army at your guardian squad...which means you're probably winning that game handily.
Not really with the ROF in the form of storm bolters etc its not that difficult to find.
A guardian squad with conceal/celestial shield / fortune takes about 1 wound per 15 bolter shots from MEQ (assuming the shots have AP so you take it on the guardians, if they have 0AP or -1AP and you're in cover it becomes even more ridiculous if you take them on the platforms), or per 11ish shots with chaptermaster/lieutenant buffs. So you're looking at needing like 75 or 60ish with buffs to be getting to the point where it's even worth thinking about spending the cp for the morale pass, and over 100 to the point where it becomes a no-brainer. If they're devoting that much firepower to your guardian squad, things are going pretty well for you.
Generly speaking if you are getting fortune you are not doing doom&guide. So then thats another 110pts investment in the form of a seconfary farseer.
Im certainly not arguing that they van be rrsiliant in the right circuimstances. But saying this unit will get all the buffs and the right trait means you kind of build your army around the troop unit, over invest in support and end up compromising your firce. 60 bolter shots arent that rare with gk and centurions /agressors being a thing
Definitely, unless you build your army in a way that they don't have many other choices of targets to shoot at. The fortune especially is probably not worth taking in most match-ups unless you are running double farseer anyway. Protect and celestial shield at much more viable since you're always going to have a protect/jinx warlock and the strat is only 1CP.
The point isn't that you'd want to do that all the time or even most of the time, just that it's an option and it makes them incredibly hard to shift, even if it's only 2+/3++ without the fortune.
That's the cool thing about a guardian blob: they can either be a serious threat to anything in the game with doom/guide, or be incredibly resilient with protect/cs/fortune, or some combination of the two. They give you a lot of options, and importantly, options that you don't have to commit to before you know your opponent, because you get to choose psychic powers after seeing their list. The weakness being they aren't all that much of anything on their own without psychic support.
yukishiro1 wrote: Definitely, unless you build your army in a way that they don't have many other choices of targets to shoot at. The fortune especially is probably not worth taking in most match-ups unless you are running double farseer anyway. Protect and celestial shield at much more viable since you're always going to have a protect/jinx warlock and the strat is only 1CP.
The point isn't that you'd want to do that all the time or even most of the time, just that it's an option and it makes them incredibly hard to shift, even if it's only 2+/3++ without the fortune.
That's the cool thing about a guardian blob: they can either be a serious threat to anything in the game with doom/guide, or be incredibly resilient with protect/cs/fortune, or some combination of the two. They give you a lot of options, and importantly, options that you don't have to commit to before you know your opponent, because you get to choose psychic powers after seeing their list. The weakness being they aren't all that much of anything on their own without psychic support.
Do you? I was under the impression most tourneys need you to submit your list beforehand and not change the powers.
For those that play ITC, how has this season's format impacted your army? I've been away since early January and have not had a chance to get in any games.
yukishiro1 wrote: Definitely, unless you build your army in a way that they don't have many other choices of targets to shoot at. The fortune especially is probably not worth taking in most match-ups unless you are running double farseer anyway. Protect and celestial shield at much more viable since you're always going to have a protect/jinx warlock and the strat is only 1CP.
The point isn't that you'd want to do that all the time or even most of the time, just that it's an option and it makes them incredibly hard to shift, even if it's only 2+/3++ without the fortune.
That's the cool thing about a guardian blob: they can either be a serious threat to anything in the game with doom/guide, or be incredibly resilient with protect/cs/fortune, or some combination of the two. They give you a lot of options, and importantly, options that you don't have to commit to before you know your opponent, because you get to choose psychic powers after seeing their list. The weakness being they aren't all that much of anything on their own without psychic support.
Do you? I was under the impression most tourneys need you to submit your list beforehand and not change the powers.
I don't know about "most tourneys" because that depends on your area, but the rules clearly state you don't have to choose psychic powers, warlord traits, relics etc until after you've seen your opponent's army.
Pre-Game
Step 1: Before any dice are rolled, players adjust and define terrain on the board, then both players choose Warlord Traits, Psychic Powers, spend pre-deployment command points, free relic, and any additional Relics they wish to use. These should be written or notated clearly for reference in game.
Question for all of you- Are eldar viable in a low point scenerio? My FLGS was going to run a league with the following rules:
750 pts, must be a patrol and, can't have any LoW. The league has been postponed but when it is starting I was thinking of particiapating.
I have some ideas but I'd like to see what others think. My army:
HQ: Assurman, Farseer with Doom and Gude
Troops: Rangers x10, 2 units of 8 Avengers including Exarchs
Fast: 6 Spiders including Exarch
Heavy: 2 shadow weavers
Total 741 pts. I am thinking about a custom craftword that gives my shurikens +4" range and all of my models a 5+++ save.
The rangers are my board control (especially with the Farseer's help). The Avengers should do well in taking and holding objectives with at least one unit being able to benefit from a 4++ save. The spiders are my anti-troop weapon with their mobility and high str weapons. The shadow weavers should be able to remove most anything that likes to hide.
Well, what are the restrictions posed on army lists?
In low pt games, the Lancester square law comes in very hand,
i.e., doubling the number of tanks required four-folding the number of anti-tank weapons to combat them.
This is the version of WW II, but is also applicable to 40k.
750 points games are much more rock - paper - scissors than 2000 point games.
It's easier to put together skew lists towards high toughness (Tyranid monster patrol with three warriors and all the rest as HQ/Elite/HS monsters), towards high model count (100 ork boys and a weirdboy), etc.
It's also more difficult in your 750 points to prepare for the outlier skew builds.
I have found in this environment that Wave Serpents with anti-infantry weapons (shuriken or scatter) are of outsize value. They're very difficult to remove (even more so than in 2000 point games where a lot more firepower can be concentrated), they can protect squishier elements, they can charge enemy units with high firepower and force them to fall back and not shoot -- they're just a great utility knife.
If you want to skew, I've done very well overloading with guardians and storm guardians, as well as with running multiple wraithlords (also very tough to remove).
Your core of a Farseer for Doom and a Warlock for Jinx remain critical -- the ability to remove a unit that you need to remove is greatly facilitated by these powers when you can only send 750 points of firepower down range instead of 2000.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The last event I played 750 points at was a 16 player tournament; I took first with the following list. Top table was Eldar versus Eldar -- the 2nd place player used a Warlock Skyrunner Conclave.
HQ Farseer, Doom, Executioner, Spear
Troops
8 Storm Guardians - 2 Fusion Guns
Elite
5 Striking Scorpions, Exarch with Claw, Sustained Attack
8 Wraithguard with wraithcannons
HS Wraithlord with Bright Lance and Ghostglaive, shuricats
Wraithlord with AML, Bright Lance, and Ghostglaive, shuricats
As you can see, this is more of a skew towards toughness. I dodged the 100 Ork boy list, which was fortunate for me as I would have almost certainly lost to it.
Well, I'd prefer Kingheff's list as it implements the Lanchester square law quite reasonable,
with two Falcons which are hard to remove at this pt level.
The Vypers normally fill gaps in the gun line of an Eldar army,
but here have a main role which is not a bad idea at small pt levels.
I've considered Serpents instead of Falcons and give each of them 3 shuricannons as Biel-Tan.
More resilient and more bang for the bucks.
Those serpents cost more than three fire prisms though, falcons with two shuriken cannons and the pulse laser are 27 PTS cheaper each.
Serpents are great transports but the other tanks are better for fire support.
100% agreed -- Falcons deliver much more offense, Wave Serpents deliver much more durability. Both are solid choices, which is nice for a change (as opposed to most of the last twenty years). Take what you want for how you want your list to function!
Nice list, Kingheff, I like the saturation of reasonably tough flying mid-strength output. Lots of movement options, lots of shooting that can harm a wide variety of targets.
Thanks, I've been looking at using vypers for screening.
With the twin cannons they're still under ten points per wound with toughness and armour that makes them very resistant to typical anti screening firepower and they can fly so can't be pinned down. Plus they're biker units so can benefit from plenty of buffs too. Overall I think they're a useful unit that can provide a decent backbone for not a lot of points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As an example of what I mean, let's compare three vypers with twin cannons to a squad of ten intercessors with the standard rifles. Bearing in mind intercessors are arguably the gold standard for cheap, tough troops.
This assumes no buffs, traits or cover for either.
With their 18 shots the vypers do 3.66 wounds to the intercessors.
With their 20 shots, I've given them rapid fire since they have the range advantage, they do 2.22 wounds in return.
So, it takes roughly six rounds of shooting for the vypers to clear the intercessors but roughly eight rounds of shooting for the intercessors to clear the vypers.
The stalker bolters do 2.96 wounds and the assault bolters do 2.22 wounds by comparison.
kingheff wrote: Those serpents cost more than three fire prisms though, falcons with two shuriken cannons and the pulse laser are 27 PTS cheaper each.
Serpents are great transports but the other tanks are better for fire support.
Well, I never go out without Fire Dragons and I've played lots of tourneys.
They are an important building block when combating the enemy at all threat ranges.
But here at small pt levels they can be neglected.
Don't get me wrong, I use serpents too, they're very good but they need something worth transporting, like dragons, to make the most of them.
Before the points drops on the other tanks serpents durability made up for the lesser firepower but now the other tanks are cheaper so the serpents need something good inside.
kingheff wrote: Don't get me wrong, I use serpents too, they're very good but they need something worth transporting, like dragons, to make the most of them.
Before the points drops on the other tanks serpents durability made up for the lesser firepower but now the other tanks are cheaper so the serpents need something good inside.
Seconded.
My Serpents usually contain two units which complement each other such as Fire Dragons and Dire Avengers,
or more cc oriented, Banshees and Scorpions.
Here's a list I've been working on using the vypers for screening I mentioned earlier. Lots of cannons ignoring cover for infantry and chip anti tank, prisms for genuine anti tank, wraith lords for counter punch mostly, everything gets a 2+ at 12", rangers can drop in when and where required, what do you guys think?
Well, your main gun line consists of Vypers.
Lots of Vypers, but the enemy like IH will not have a hard time to remove them asap.
Wraithlords are meh, too slow and too less damage output.
Warwalkers have more bang for the bucks.
I'd use Vypers to fill gaps in the gunline but not as ''the'' major gunline.
As far as I'm aware iron hands have moved to intercessor spam with ferros and the apothecary for a 5++/5+++. Vypers match up pretty well against intercessors as I showed above. With the speed of vypers it should be easy enough to deploy far enough back to avoid stalker bolters on their first turn.
I put the lords in the list to counter punch things like disco lords that are very fast or hard to shoot due to modifiers etc.
How many command points do you require to play your army (2000 pts)? Since November, I'd play lists with 6 command points and only when I utilized a detachment of Harlequins did I feel I needed more. I have not used a Drukhari detachment yet, but would imagine the Vect stratagem would be critical and very CP heavy.
I found myself using Phantasm (playing ITC 2019) in many games, but most other stratagems were situational. I utilized Expert Crafters and Seer of Shifting Vector in nearly every list which diminished my need to spend a CP for a reroll.
Depends on the list I'm running normally, seer council is almost always used if I've got points, plus peerless mastery if I've got the cp.
Expert crafter builds are usually pretty cp efficient but I'll often use a guardian bomb to help with chaff clearance, celestial shield is definitely a go to as well as webway.
Most of my lists have a battalion plus another detachment so 9cp is typical for me.
I suspect I'm a minority but I rate CP as completely unimportant but that's because I tend to forget what I have access to so I plan as if they don't exist.
pm713 wrote: I suspect I'm a minority but I rate CP as completely unimportant but that's because I tend to forget what I have access to so I plan as if they don't exist.
Not sure if CPs can be a game changer when you have only a few of them.
I mostly use them for re-rolls of any kind.
I just had a game on TTS where my wraithknight absolutely rinsed face.
I haven't given him much of a runout recently, but I took him sun&star, and used the spiritseer as his personal buffer.
I really think we might need to look again at the unit, I'm going to be running him evey day now for a week to see how it plays out.
But the classic combos make it way tougher than an imperial knight and very deadly in close combat. (ie Fortune & Spirit Shield for defence, Supreme Disdain and Enhance for tapdancing).
I'm also getting a hell of a lot of mileage out of Banshees led by a piercing strike exarch.
I was running expert crafters and savage blades, making me super-accurate in melee too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Disdain/enhance with wrath of the dead and that CW setup, for example, does an expected 29 damage to intercessors.
The problem with the wraithknight is it has pathetically low shooting power for its points cost, roughly half what imperial knights have. Yes, it can be buffed...but it is also designed so that it *has* to be buffed or it's just downright terrible.
Run it sword and board then, for 330pts. It's a really cheap unit now.
I agree, it's a buff unit. But let's not pretend that many of the best units in the game aren't.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Its big drawback doesn't come from it needing buffs at all - its big drawback is how dependent it is on turn 1 to get those buffs in place before it's shot...
I think the wraithknight is decent enough, sun and star cannons are good at killing marines.
One thing is that enhance only works on infantry and bikes unless I missed something.
Shuriken cannon is worth it for the sword and shield knight, since fire and fade is pretty handy for setting up a turn 2 charge.
Sword and board is a bad choice too though, you're not going to catch many vehicles with it and against anything else the flat 6 damage is wasted.
Don't get me wrong, it's not absolutely terrible...but it will pretty much always be outperformed by the three wraithlords or the six walkers you could take for the same points, and hugely outperformed with expert crafters.
Outperformed at what? You're taking a 330pt Wraithknight for a very specific purpose, and it's miles better at that role than either of the options you listed. Threat-maxxed tapdancing tank is not something I'd ask a WL or WW to be. A WK can easily get -1 to hit at range, 4++, 5+++, making it the tankiest superheavy in the game bar none. Ram that down your opponent's throat and you've changed the shape of the battle considerably.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The sword is hardly ever used, except vs other knights perhaps. It's purely about economy. (I prefer sun&star myself.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Your 6 starcannon war walkers are doing about 3-4 damage against that buffed Alaitoc WK by the way, unless you get doom/jinx going.
And a 117 point repentia unit, or a 150 point smash captain, can do a number on it, even with all those buffs. Not to mention pretty much anything that is infantry and can therefore just play games with the terrible 8th edition terrain rules. If a WK isn't in combat it's a massive waste of points - it's ranged abilities are incredibly limited for its point cost - and if it is in combat, most dedicated combat units can take it apart in a round or two. And of course it's usually easy just to keep it out of combat too, given its significant movement limitations as a huge model without fly or infantry.
But by all means, don't let me talk you out of it. I'm sure it's lots of fun in non-competitive games. But any competitive list can either drop a knight a turn, or else just ignore it and win the game on objectives. Because if you can't do either of those things, you lose to every 3 knight list you come across. So competitive lists can all do that or they aren't competitive lists.
I agree that smashcaps are the natural predator of most knights. But you're dead wrong when it comes to a buffed WK: a 150pt cap shouldn't even bracket a WK with fortune and spirit shield. Say it's a Blood Angels cap with master crafted thunderhammer, honoring the chapter for an average of 14 attacks, the WK only takes 9.7 damage. That's against the best melee knight-counter in the game.
(On the return attack the WK can proc either supreme disdain or fury of the dead to guarantee the kill vs a storm shield smashcap, or both if you want to be throwing back an average of 22.5 stomps for some reason. Note, that's just a bit below two IKs' worth of stomps.)
That's kind of my point: I don't think many people are taking the thing seriously in terms of its tankiness once that combo goes off. Your opponents best chance of taking it down is a) 1st turn, b) wasting an absurd amount of attacks into it, or c) killing its pyschic support. Even BA Smashcap ain't the answer on his own.
I'll start by stating I have three painted Wraithknights.
I've not run the melee version. I did run the Suncannon and Scatter Shield with 2 Starcannons in an otherwise mechanized list a few months back. This allowed the model to act a bit more independent. I found the Suncannon's random 2d6 for the number of shots to be the biggest detractor. I feel it should be a fixed number of shots and then pointed accounting for that. On the positive, target priority for my opponents were challenged when facing a dozen or so vehicles and a Wraithknight.
The melee version sounds like a lot more than 330 points as Fortune and Spirit Shield appear to be required adding in another 165 points minimum. If your not willing to run the Wraithknight without these, then we are really looking at a @ 500 point model investment into the army.
Some players enjoy and build armies around the psychic combos, so I do agree that there are many other Craftworld units that also require support. I generally never run Dark Reapers without having a Wave Serpent, so I need put aside points for the tank and refine my stategy around it. However, most other units don't cost as much points wise. Losing the Wraithknight at the beginning of the game can be quite an uphill challenge for many players. It is also a model that you need to construct the army around. Specialized detachment, additional CP commitment, and psychic support must be factored and must be a part of the discussion for the inclusion of a Wraithknight.
I don't disagree with anything you're saying Sariger, and I'll shut up about it soon because I dont want to drown the thread in WK stuff.
But here's my response. Yes, a WK bends a list around it, demading certain units to work optimally. I agree that needs to be held in the balance. But equally I think the WK's virtues are often underplayed. Let's take an example detachment:
Well, now we have an all-in support system for a WK. It will have superb rerolls with the Iyanden strat and using the psytronome, supreme disdain and wrath of the dead it will deliver 45 stomps in one round of CC, one of the most dangerous CC unit in the game of 40k. It will be very hard to turn off your support for it due to duplicate seers, and they will be able to cover different parts of the board, offering 4++ and rerolls to hit at different vectors, making your Wk unpredictable. T2 it will be 4++/5+++, with one of the best defensive profiles in the game. ...
But what happens if you lose initiative and, despite your best efforts, your opponent has brought a list with the guns and the range to drop your WK in one turn before your defences are up? Well, that's a problem, you've lost nearly a fifth of your list. But the Spiritseers don't have to stand around doing nothing for the rest of the game, they're still smite/jinx psykers with 4w and 4++, and running three would synergise well with a mortal wound spam list. Similarly, if an IH player loses an executioner in T1 (only 65pts less than that WK), I assume the player can use their Feirros to aid elsewhere in the fight, otherwise they're just guilty of weird list-writing.
So yeah I think we need a better way of understanding list composition that saying "oh unit x needs units y + z to work optimally? Then the real cost of x =xyz."
I am happy for the discussion as I welcome more insight on using a model I really enjoy.
Maybe I've missed something in the math, but the stomp would be 35 attacks. 4 base, +1 Wrath of the Dead (5), Psytronome doubling to 10, the stomp tripling for 30, finally Supreme Disdain giving an additional 5 hits. Add in getting the Twilight Gloom Spirit Seer within 12" of the enemy unit for rerolls. Hits exceptionally hard.
I am certainly not dismissing the Wraithknight combinations, but I think we can agree that to maximize the utility of the Wraithknight, the additional expenditures (CP, Relic, psychic support) is required. For myself, I find it difficult to justify. As an example, for 528 points I can take an Airwing with 3 CHE (Starcannons, Pulse Laser) with Expert Crafters, Masterful Shots, and Hawkeye and be more efficient. This detachment has very efficient shooting, great mobility to mitigate return fire, and does not require additional CP or psychic support. It can benefit from the support, but it is not overly critical. Those resources can be utilized elsewhere to further increase threat, mobility, and resiliency across the army. This also has a lot to do with my prefered playstyle; not better, but different.
I've used the Wraithknight, but only with the assist of Fortune/Guide Farseer. In all reality, the Suncannon's random shooting profile was the real drawback. If this was more consistent, I would very likely include this model in more games. The 5++/5+FnP felt sufficient, especially with T8 and 24 wounds.
It's arguable, but I think most people now agree that strats like Supreme Disdain do combo with "make x roll" weapons. So for each hit of 6, you do get 3 more hit rolls. This makes it quite good on a WK, as you basically get 50% more attacks from it. So it'd be 8+1 for wrath of the dead (the attack modifier goes after the double, see BRB page 175). That's 27 stomps, with 4.5 6s, so 13.5 extra hit rolls from the strat. So a total of 40.5 on average, more if you have hit rerolls.
Don't get me wrong, a WK is very good in close combat with extensive psychic buffs and CP investment. I just don't think that's really competitive on a model with so many limitations (no fly, no infantry, huge model, has to be close to squishy support models). And it is really nothing but close combat - its shooting is frankly pathetic for its points cost, no matter what choices you take.
I think we're not a million miles away from each other in our assessments! I just wanted to point out that the WK is a) the cheapest 'knight' LoW model now b) has better access to offensive buffs than any other LoW and c) has better access to defensive buffs than any other LoW.
Yukishiro, thanks, been running it as 10 base not 9! And yeah, it's guns are very meh as AT, but passable vs elites such as Obliterators, Custodes Bikes, Crisis bombs, Centurions, etc. 2d6+4 S6 -3 shots isn't nothing but yeah you're right, it pales next to some IK loadouts.
yukishiro1 wrote: It's arguable, but I think most people now agree that strats like Supreme Disdain do combo with "make x roll" weapons. So for each hit of 6, you do get 3 more hit rolls. This makes it quite good on a WK, as you basically get 50% more attacks from it. So it'd be 8+1 for wrath of the dead (the attack modifier goes after the double, see BRB page 175). That's 27 stomps, with 4.5 6s, so 13.5 extra hit rolls from the strat. So a total of 40.5 on average, more if you have hit rerolls.
Don't get me wrong, a WK is very good in close combat with extensive psychic buffs and CP investment. I just don't think that's really competitive on a model with so many limitations (no fly, no infantry, huge model, has to be close to squishy support models). And it is really nothing but close combat - its shooting is frankly pathetic for its points cost, no matter what choices you take.
I appreciate the attacks breakdown. I located the list I used and found the army to be fun. However, it cemented my thoughts about the 2d6 mechanic for the Suncannon. It did provide me a counter assault element and definitely challenged opponent`s target priority. I would play something like this in a single day, local tourney, but would not play this in a larger event.
Craftworld Traits
Expert Crafters
Masterful Shots
Spearhead
Autarch, Starglaive, Force Shield (73)
3 x Nightspinner, Twin Catapult, Doomweaver, CTM (117 each)
Fire Prism, Twin Catapult, Prism Cannon (142)
Hornet, 2 Hornet Pulse Laser (100)
Airwing
3 x Crimson Hunter Exarch, Hawkeye (176 each)
2 x Hemlock Wraithfighter, Spirit Stone (210 each)
Lord of War
Wraithknight, Scattershield, Suncannon, 2 Starcannon (386)
Total Points: 2000
Command Points: 5
Warlord Trait: Eye on Distant Events
Relic: Faolchu's Wing
Argive wrote: I had a crazy idea for a trip knight list a while back... I will dig it out in a bit if I still have it.
Triple WK isn't very good because the only way to make the model decent involves using psychic powers and strats. So you can only make one good a turn.
It might be fun, don't get me wrong. But it'll be extremely hard to win games with unless your opponent is doing something similar.
They solve one huge problem with the WK: 1st turn alpha knocking them out before they can power up.
They double down on buff defences, as you really need to double-gun them to be vaguely worth it, so they need a Spiritseer to 4++ swap with them every turn, meaning you'll need to run multiples of seers to make it viable.
They're essentially way overcosted but could be made to do serious work in the right list.
Their kryptonite is Vect, leaving them with no invuln.
question about the skathach knight model kit- it's $30 more than a normal knight. Does it come with both weapon options or only the weapon option shown on the FW site? I presume that you can still receive the normal knight options in either case. Is this correct?
Do you think there's any value in a two man warlock conclave?
Seventy points is still pretty cheap for an hq and they get to know two powers, quicken and jinx for example, with the strategy to make the powers 36" range I think they could be useful.
With the powers you don't need line of sight generally so they should be easy enough to hide somewhere.
Any thoughts?
kingheff wrote: Do you think there's any value in a two man warlock conclave?
Seventy points is still pretty cheap for an hq and they get to know two powers, quicken and jinx for example, with the strategy to make the powers 36" range I think they could be useful.
With the powers you don't need line of sight generally so they should be easy enough to hide somewhere.
Any thoughts?
Hiding somewhere in the vicinity of a mission objective is key in the current meta.
And here you have cost-effective models who can achieve this and contribute to the game with some powers.
Recently, I battled GSC and couldn't annihilite them in round 5 since the enemy had several HQs out there which I couldn't target all at once.
kingheff wrote: Do you think there's any value in a two man warlock conclave?
Seventy points is still pretty cheap for an hq and they get to know two powers, quicken and jinx for example, with the strategy to make the powers 36" range I think they could be useful.
With the powers you don't need line of sight generally so they should be easy enough to hide somewhere.
Any thoughts?
Generally speaking, they would be easier to hide from shooting and easier to avoid being in Deny the Witch range. However, they are no longer have the character keyword which could leave them exposed to shooting that does not require Los. A bit of a trade of to be able to cast from a greater distance. If you don't face opponents with much non LOS shooting, it may be worthwhile to utilize a strong Comclave.
Yeah, the loss of the character keyword is potentially a big problem. It's the main drawback for sure. Thunderfire cannons would need to double shoot to take out a two man squad in a round. Night spinners would eat them for breakfast however...
Really good report, the list worked well against the knights, like you mentioned it may struggle more with hordes but against marines it looks very solid.
What’s good against new sisters? What do we pointy ears have to be careful of when playing them? I haven’t seen much discussion about the matchup, is it a tough one for us?
I played a really close game against a sisters army the other week, we never finished it unfortunately. At the end of turn three it was hung in the balance.
I was running harly bat and custom cwe bat, with triple falcons/triple banshees which is something I've really been enjoying.
He ran the most obscenely resilient carpet of models! His repentias (I think? The nutters with the chainswords) were running so buffed that I couldn't whittle them down too well. - 4++ with 5+++, each doing insane cc damage, and mortal wounds as they died, 3x9 blobs. Lots of celestines to absorb all my attempts to snipe out the HQs bringin all the buffs. triple T8 artillery pieces.
Doom and jinx are crucial in that kind of matchup up so I really recommend council strat and focus will if you have a spare caster. Shurikens are clutch in the matchup too, with my dire avenger squads with bladstorm doing great work against all those t3 bodies. Likewise with the banshees - they killed a lot as they died. The clowns were pretty much dead weight as it turned out, so much bolter fire meant their transports were doomed.
I think he would have snuck the win if we'd have carried on, he's a great player. I think resilience of that order is something to chew on, but I'm also aware that's just one of their good builds. A strong, well written army that while powerful still didn't feel insurmountable.Very keen to play against them some more!
Grouchoben described it pretty well.
Resilient tanks and transports like Falcons or Serpents loaded with Dire Avengers and Banshees can do a lot of damage.
Shurican cannons are also great vs T3 models as wounding is on 2+.
A fully mounted army with high mobility is key vs static armies and dangerous units like Repentias which can be outmaneuvered.
Hi everyone I'm very new to the hobby and have been solely painting since the start of the year. I've yet to roll a dice but have been working on assembling my army with one eye on this forum, Goonhammer and the unit reviews on 1d4chan. I've drawn up a list based on the models I have, and while I intended them to be competitive, a large draw has been to play Eldrad and drop a fully psychically buffed up guardian blob on my opponent. I know that this isn't hyper competitive, and that I'm missing out on Masterful/Expert Crafters but I'd like to play a few games with this setup as it sounds fun, and I can get an appreciation for how the aforementioned craftworld traits might improve on this "vanilla" setup which I missed out on first time around.My strategy is to look to control objectives with this army, using the spears warlock and autarch to take out deep striking scouts or maybe a pushed up invictor, before looking to assess a favourable CC in the midfield. I have ample non LOS shooting with the spinner/ 2 DR exarchs to clear out things like eliminators or a thunderfire cannon, i figured my Hemlock could help with causing problems in the backfield. I have objective grabbers with my rangers/DA squads in serpents plus E-dizzle and a warlock to support them. Ultimately I'd look to combine my Guardian blob with my mini deathball charge in turn two or three to clinch the center board. Does this seem viable?
While I'd like to get into the competitive scene, my first few games will be with a friend who has also taken up the hobby at Christmas time. We're both working on our 2k armies (hes playing Ultramarines) and our idea is to play a few matches post lockdown with our regular tabletop (mostly DND) group to try and get more friends into the hobby. I know this list doesn't have to be super competitive, but that's the bar I've set for myself eventually, so I'd welcome any feedback on where I might refine things in the future.
In the future I'd like to look into acquiring more spears to bring that unit up to max size, in addition to perhaps replacing my nightspinner with war walkers for some more board control an pick up some support weapons for a possible foray into crafters. As is I'd be grateful for feedback on what I have now, and also any pointers on how I should look to play the army. I know Aeldari aren't the easiest, so I've been watching some youtube battle reports and reading articles to work on strategy. One concern I have is that If i start my DAs and footlock/eldrad in serpents, then I dont have a lot of screens, so I'd need to have at least one unit of rangers in my deployment zone.
Overall a very nice list, don't worry too much about custom craftworlds, they can be good but ulthwe and alaitoc are far from bad. Eldrad is still one of the best psykers in the game, use seer council and he'll really shine.
Screening doesn't always rely on troops, serpents and the hemlock can do that job turn one, for example.
The best thing to do is play of course, battle reports are good for learning procedural parts of the game but playing is crucial for learning how your list works and how you want to play.
Well, as a long-time Eldar player I think your first battalion is fine.
The second is questionable as your army has too less penetration.
Instead, add two further detachments instead of the Rangers, say outrider with Shining Spears and spearhead with Support batteries, Fire Prisms, flyers and whatnot.
Id also consider moving the long range wave serpents to alitoic and the reapers consolidated into one squad of 8 to sit in that serpent. That way you can guide and doom them as well as use the re-roll 1's for the autarch in a pinch.
That way you can better protect them with fire and fade as well as potentialy stacking -1 for a -2 with LFR. Those are you squishest units and also the ones with most consistent DMG output.
Also maybe the night spinner as well. You can give them both spirit stones for a 6+++ which gives the same befit as ulthwe at 20pts as well as a -1 on top to make them a bit more survivable. You can downgrade the twin EML to starcannons to get the points for spirit stone and arguably have better weapon. Star cannons are solid and EML are swingy.
Dual battalion is certainly a strong option. Ranger start is great if you are going alitoic.
^ Thats fantastic. Im having a play around with battlescribe to work on some of these different loadouts along these lines. Certainly going to play a few games as dual battalion. My opponent is playing UM aggressors/warsuits and dreads with a reroll castle so not sure what the best unit counter would be to a strong core like this. If i do make my transports from one craftworld, can they carry troops from another craftworld?
Barbachop wrote: If i do make my transports from one craftworld, can they carry troops from another craftworld?
Short answer: no.
Long answer: bar a few exceptions (eg: Astra Militarum), almost all armies can't either. The answer to these questions depends on the description of the transport ability (also visible on BattleScribe), which in our case reads "can transport <CRAFTWORLD> INFANTRY models" so you need the same <craftworld> keyword, with exceptions explicitly spelled out for some "trans-subfaction" units, in this case Phoenix Lords.
The question was raised earlier about sisters of battle.
I played against a mostly melee/deepstriking horde yesterday and I think it's potentially a big problem for craftworlds. There were two battalions of cheap sisters, thirty repentia in rhinos and maybe thirty or fourty of the deepstrike sisters some with melee and some with pistols, plus some support characters.
Especially any kind of expert crafters type list. I actually had a lot of shuriken in my list as well as big guns but that many 3+ saves is a nightmare to try chew through when you're just relying on 6+ to wound for any ap.
Has anyone else faced a sisters horde? I think they're a pretty scary prospect for craftworlds.
kingheff wrote: The question was raised earlier about sisters of battle.
I played against a mostly melee/deepstriking horde yesterday and I think it's potentially a big problem for craftworlds. There were two battalions of cheap sisters, thirty repentia in rhinos and maybe thirty or fourty of the deepstrike sisters some with melee and some with pistols, plus some support characters.
Especially any kind of expert crafters type list. I actually had a lot of shuriken in my list as well as big guns but that many 3+ saves is a nightmare to try chew through when you're just relying on 6+ to wound for any ap.
Has anyone else faced a sisters horde? I think they're a pretty scary prospect for craftworlds.
Not played against the new Sisters yet, but some members of our gaming group are working on them.
Against a deep striking army which could overwhelm you, its reasonable either to castle up (giving the enemy problems with deploying 12'' away from your army) or to spread out as much as possible (which may take the sting out of the enemy alpha strike leaving him/her with making decisions).
kingheff wrote: The question was raised earlier about sisters of battle.
I played against a mostly melee/deepstriking horde yesterday and I think it's potentially a big problem for craftworlds. There were two battalions of cheap sisters, thirty repentia in rhinos and maybe thirty or fourty of the deepstrike sisters some with melee and some with pistols, plus some support characters.
Especially any kind of expert crafters type list. I actually had a lot of shuriken in my list as well as big guns but that many 3+ saves is a nightmare to try chew through when you're just relying on 6+ to wound for any ap.
Has anyone else faced a sisters horde? I think they're a pretty scary prospect for craftworlds.
I have not played against Sisters yet. What is causing Craftworld armies to wound on a 6+ against infantry? Is it across multiple Sisters units at the same time? Is it a character aura?
kingheff wrote: The question was raised earlier about sisters of battle.
I played against a mostly melee/deepstriking horde yesterday and I think it's potentially a big problem for craftworlds. There were two battalions of cheap sisters, thirty repentia in rhinos and maybe thirty or fourty of the deepstrike sisters some with melee and some with pistols, plus some support characters.
Especially any kind of expert crafters type list. I actually had a lot of shuriken in my list as well as big guns but that many 3+ saves is a nightmare to try chew through when you're just relying on 6+ to wound for any ap.
Has anyone else faced a sisters horde? I think they're a pretty scary prospect for craftworlds.
I have not played against Sisters yet. What is causing Craftworld armies to wound on a 6+ against infantry? Is it across multiple Sisters units at the same time? Is it a character aura?
Its the Ap element I think he means - Sisters have easy acccess to army wide ignore -1AP and its not hard to get ignore -2AP, if they are in cover they can be 2+ armour, ignoring -2 AP. The 6+ wound gets the -3 ApIIRC for shuriken weapons?
Yeah, I was referring to the -3 ap for shuriken on a six to wound.
Ironically I think fire prisms are one of our best units to take down sisters, the valuable ones anyway. Apart from that, shadow spectres maybe? We tend to have lots of ap or none.
I must admit I didn't screen well enough, shouldn't have put my rangers in reserve as I normally do, but I didn't expect one squad of repentia to chew through three vypers and a falcon in one combat phase! Those miracle dice make their charges far too reliable for my liking!
Thanks for the clarification. Makes sense. 1K Sons have a similar ability. Definitely would like to play against it. Masterful Shots has been a very common trait to match with Expert Crafters, which mitigates the 2+ save potential.
For less points than a Fire Prism, the Hornet with 2 Hornet Pulse Laser is 100 points.
I was using masterful shots and a lot of shuriken cannons with autarch support, star cannons could be ok too but I was thinking of single damage weapons since they're mostly single wound models. They're very tricksy too, firing when arriving from deepstrike with extra range on their pistols, for example, I got severe shenanigan envy last night!
I just don't rate shuriken cannons one iota, not when starcannons are only 3pt more, and are so well tooled to take on the big meta dogs. And with doom they also rock as AT.
The two games I've played against (tanky) sisters ended in a draw and a win, but that might be because I run eldar soup and I run a lot of CC (wyches, banshees, spiritseers, wraithknights).
grouchoben wrote: I just don't rate shuriken cannons one iota, not when starcannons are only 3pt more, and are so well tooled to take on the big meta dogs. And with doom they also rock as AT.
The two games I've played against (tanky) sisters ended in a draw and a win, but that might be because I run eldar soup and I run a lot of CC (wyches, banshees, spiritseers, wraithknights).
So, I ran some numbers...the intercessor numbers are a bit fuzzy, but pretty close, because of the D3 damage and the way the mathhammer app works but I'm too lazy to do it 100% accurate!
260 pts = 13 bright lance, 20 star lance, 26 shuriken cannons, so 13, 40 and 78 shots respectively.
shuriken
Vs geq 30 dead, vs sisters 18 dead, vs meq 15 dead, vs intercessor 7 dead, vs rhino profile 16.8 wounds (with doom), 10.1 (without doom)
shuriken with hail of doom
vs geq 36 dead, vs sisters, 24 dead, vs meq 20 dead, vs intercessor 10 dead, vs rhino 19.2 wounds (with doom), 11.5 (without doom)
star cannon (not moved)
vs geq 22, vs sisters 18 dead, vs meq 14 dead ,vs intercessor 10ish dead, vs rhino 24.6 wounds (with doom), 14.8 wounds (without doom)
star cannon (move penalty)
vs geq 16 dead, vs sisters 13 dead, vs meq 11 dead, vs primaris 8ish dead, vs rhino 18.5 wounds (with doom), 11.1 (without doom)
Now obviously this doesn't tell the whole story, you've got to pay for the units to carry the guns for a start!
But I think it shows that shuriken cannons don't do badly in comparison to star cannons except vs tanks and that star cannons need doom to compete with bright lances fully. Expert crafters could have a big impact on this depending on unit size but it gets tricky to work out accurately and should help star cannons but will also push bright lances further ahead in terms of anti tank.
If Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots did not exist, I would not run nearly as many Starcannons in my army. Those traits combined with aggressively pointed are why they have become so prevalent for me.
I would likely include Brightlances in my army, but the d6 damage is not a mechanic I like. The Pulse Laser and Hornet Pulse Laser became better options, also when factoring in Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots.
Not saying Shuriken is a poor choice. I happen to enjoy the fact there are debatable weapon options now. Prior to PA and Chapter Approved, Shuriken weapons were my most prevalent choice.
kingheff wrote:Especially any kind of expert crafters type list. I actually had a lot of shuriken in my list as well as big guns but that many 3+ saves is a nightmare to try chew through when you're just relying on 6+ to wound for any ap.
kingheff wrote:I was using masterful shots and a lot of shuriken cannons with autarch support, star cannons could be ok too but I was thinking of single damage weapons since they're mostly single wound models.
kingheff wrote:Yeah, I was referring to the -3 ap for shuriken on a six to wound.
Ironically I think fire prisms are one of our best units to take down sisters, the valuable ones anyway. Apart from that, shadow spectres maybe? We tend to have lots of ap or none.
D
You're right, just looking at the weapons table in the codex, it's almost all AP0 or AP-3/4
Don't know how it would work in your list, but squads of Dire Avengers with Shredding Fire look like the best answer to this particular question, especially in a Masterful Shots CW.
Decent range and RoF, single damage, S4 AP-3 no cover - on a troop platform.
It bypasses AP shenanigans, does not waste multi-damage on them, and brings them to their 6++ so no AP wasted as well.
Don't know how it would work in your list, but squads of Dire Avengers with Shredding Fire look like the best answer to this particular question, especially in a Masterful Shots CW.
Decent range and RoF, single damage, S4 AP-3 no cover - on a troop platform.
It bypasses AP shenanigans, does not waste multi-damage on them, and brings them to their 6++ so no AP wasted as well.
Found the following math on comparison which puts it prettty close
Bladestorm:
1 expert crafters attack + 11 normal attacks, taking bladestorm as being equivalent to BS 2:
To be honest I find the way this math is formatted pretty confusing and hard to read ; I didn't quite review it all nor have time to do it on my side at the moment, will come back with it at some point later if someone hasn't in the meantime.
But at least this part caught my eye, if I understand it correctly you're giving them a 4+ Sv, as if Shredding Fire were AP-1.
SF is AP-3 on all weapons on all hit rolls, so that last part should read 80/36 ie 2.22, for a total of ~3.64, virtually a full extra wound compared to 2.66 for Bladestorm.
And this is against MEQ, so for sisters while ratios stay similar the difference translates to more dead models.
To be honest I find the way this math is formatted pretty confusing and hard to read ; I didn't quite review it all nor have time to do it on my side at the moment, will come back with it at some point later if someone hasn't in the meantime.
But at least this part caught my eye, if I understand it correctly you're giving them a 4+ Sv, as if Shredding Fire were AP-1.
SF is AP-3 on all weapons on all hit rolls, so that last part should read 80/36 ie 2.22, for a total of ~3.64, virtually a full extra wound compared to 2.66 for Bladestorm.
And this is against MEQ, so for sisters while ratios stay similar the difference translates to more dead models.
The maths isnt my own, credit goes to reddit user u/anthropophage. He details the ap as: (from the eldar subreddit)
"Rend against T4 is pretty straightforward. One third of your successful wounds will rend, so you can take all successful wounds as having AP -1."
Goonhammer has a decent article on exarch powers but the bulk of it concerns avenging shots as opposed bs/sf
I've always found bladestorm and shredding fire to be a dead heat, both great options.
Star cannons are great but need to be static to get the best from them, shuriken cannons are better on mobile stuff star cannons suit more static units, the nice thing is they both work, just in different ways.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've posted an update on my list if anyone is interested. I think it's decent but it's untested so far since I'm working. Hoping to be able to squeeze a game in on Thursday night though.
Sorry yeah, me advocating starcannons is predicated on expert crafters and the meta. On double starcannons a reroll to hit and wound works really nice against marines where youre hitting on 3s wounding on 3s, and work so much better vs stealthy/cover than shuri.
The main drawback for star cannons is the d3 damage, at least Vs intercessors, especially with fnp. I think two star cannons fails to kill an iron hands intercessor with the 5++ and 5+++ on average... just but I haven't done the maths. Still do better than shuriken of course! I might just be biased against d3's after my executioner went off in my last game, with a CP reroll, and I rolled a 1 for damage and the repentia made her fnp!
If star cannons were flat 2 they'd be amazing but there they'd definitely need a points increase
kingheff wrote: I've always found bladestorm and shredding fire to be a dead heat, both great options.
Star cannons are great but need to be static to get the best from them, shuriken cannons are better on mobile stuff star cannons suit more static units, the nice thing is they both work, just in different ways.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've posted an update on my list if anyone is interested. I think it's decent but it's untested so far since I'm working. Hoping to be able to squeeze a game in on Thursday night though.
As star cannons are heavy, they are hardly an option for moving units.
Instead, I still count on Dark Reapers.
kingheff wrote: I've always found bladestorm and shredding fire to be a dead heat, both great options.
Star cannons are great but need to be static to get the best from them, shuriken cannons are better on mobile stuff star cannons suit more static units, the nice thing is they both work, just in different ways.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've posted an update on my list if anyone is interested. I think it's decent but it's untested so far since I'm working. Hoping to be able to squeeze a game in on Thursday night though.
As star cannons are heavy, they are hardly an option for moving units.
Instead, I still count on Dark Reapers.
I love Reapers too, but alas marine lists seem to nuke mine too easily with all their absurdly good no-LoS shooting.
I still rate msu as the way to go for CWE - vibrocannons, warwalkers, vypers, falcons, even wraithlords, etc. I think expert falcons run cheap are amazing now. Love that pulse laser with rerolls. We have so many punchy little units that need proper fire to bring down, and their range is great, allowing for good positioning for backfield deepstrike denial.
I've been experimenting with 3 120pt BL Wraithlords recently, and they've been suprisingly useful for AT and roadbump duties, normally deployed on the edge of my zone and left there to fire and counterassault. They're great Primaris punchers and if they're not prioritised they become bullies in the final rounds. But then I need backfield presence because I like to run lots of banshees and wyches and the yncarne for lots of blitzing.
kingheff wrote: I've always found bladestorm and shredding fire to be a dead heat, both great options.
Star cannons are great but need to be static to get the best from them, shuriken cannons are better on mobile stuff star cannons suit more static units, the nice thing is they both work, just in different ways.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've posted an update on my list if anyone is interested. I think it's decent but it's untested so far since I'm working. Hoping to be able to squeeze a game in on Thursday night though.
As star cannons are heavy, they are hardly an option for moving units.
Instead, I still count on Dark Reapers.
So you're agreeing with me?
Agreed!
Could you please post a link to your list.
I've also been using D-Spiritseers who are just a straight upgrade to the Wraithlords, but I play ITC and so they just bleed seecondary points unfortunately.
grouchoben wrote: I've been experimenting with 3 120pt BL Wraithlords recently, and they've been suprisingly useful for AT and roadbump duties, normally deployed on the edge of my zone and left there to fire and counterassault. They're great Primaris punchers and if they're not prioritised they become bullies in the final rounds. But then I need backfield presence because I like to run lots of banshees and wyches and the yncarne for lots of blitzing.
I really like Wraithlords and think they are undervalued by a lot of players who are put off by the degrading profile. Yes that is annoying but compared to SM Dreadnoughts they are faster, tougher and can take both 2 heavy guns and an improved melee weapon. I normally run at least 2 in a mech heavy army. My opponent normally expends most of his heavy weapon fire trying to bring down my Wave Serpents or silence my Fire Prisms. The WLs are fast enough to reliably pull off a T2 charge and pack just enough punch to threaten elite units (although hordes will bog them down).
Combine 2-3 with Expert Crafters and they can dish out some serious damage reasonable points. I normally like the following builds.
2 Starcannons. MEQ mulchers.
2 Brightlances. Tank hunters. Normally I don't like single-shot AT weapons but the rerolls from EC make them viable.
2 Shuricannons + Glaive. Fast build built for Advancing and firing before charging. This guy makes an awesome distraction Carnifex.
Well, I think a single WL is not worth taking.
But it multiplies in effectiveness if one takes three of them.
They can build a decent fire base in the backfield, take care of threats in the back field (deep striking units), and move forward towards the enemy if necessary.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I think a single WL is not worth taking.
But it multiplies in effectiveness if one takes three of them.
I would not necessarily go so far as to say that. It is not that you must field multiple WLs. Rather you need to field them in a list with lots of other hard targets. They are not great in a mixed force but if you are running a mechanised list with plenty of Grav tanks etc, they can work really well.
I like them as distraction carnifex models with twin shuriken cannons, they're hard to ignore and tend to get prioritised. Wraith seers probably do the job a bit better because of the invulnerable but both work. I did play around with three lords in a ynarri spearhead with yvraine to give them a 5++ but I never got round to painting her up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the subject of underappreciated units, the humble striking scorpion. Are they secretly our best screening unit? A 2+ in cover and -1 to hit in terrain with the right exarch trait. Six wounds for 45 points and the ability to deepstrike if needed? Seems pretty tasty to me, not great offensively but that's not the point, in this case anyway.
Yeah I've just finished painting up my ArtelW Scorpions, and I can't wait to try them in person, rather than on TTS! I like them either with claw and crushing blow or blade and scorpions sting to maximise mandiblasters. They're okay I think,and I sometimes take a single squad for a minimal backfield pressure unit. Hadn't thought about them as screening at all...
I love those artel scorpions, great models, although I really like the current sculpts too, materials aside.
I think expert crafters claw exarchs can be good but their offence really isn't great overall unfortunately.
kingheff wrote: I think expert crafters claw exarchs can be good but their offence really isn't great overall unfortunately.
True but they are cheaper than SM Scouts for a unit with broadly similar capabilities. Not Troops unfortunately but not a bad way to fill out a Brigade.
kingheff wrote: I think expert crafters claw exarchs can be good but their offence really isn't great overall unfortunately.
True but they are cheaper than SM Scouts for a unit with broadly similar capabilities. Not Troops unfortunately but not a bad way to fill out a Brigade.
Did you read what I wrote about scorpions just above that post?
Talking about scorpions has inspired me, I doubt I'll use this and it may not be easy to pull off effectively but...could be a great little troll detachment. Using the shroud drop in the warlock to impair the senses of something like a knight or a riptide or whatever. At the same time dump the three squads of -2 to hit, 2+ save scorpions in some nearby cover and laugh as the enemy struggles to remove it, unless it's marines of course, but that's marines for you, always spoiling our fun! TS or Grey nights could also screw with this but even if it's not possible to pull this off you still get great objective grabbing for not a lot of points.
Can confirm that sword + shuri cannon WL's are great at being a distraction unit. In fact I've sometimes run them with just the sword and run them across the board. They're surprisingly cheap with that loadout and are just enough of a problem and just tanky enough that your opponent often has to overcommit to dealing with them.
I only wish I properly magnetized my WL's, but they're such a nightmare to do it to.
Speaking of, I assume MSU of War Walkers with BL's are actually fairly decent with expert crafters etc? Again, an instance of annoying to magnetize (and not having enough shuriken cannons) led to me giving them BL's.
Bosskelot wrote: Can confirm that sword + shuri cannon WL's are great at being a distraction unit. In fact I've sometimes run them with just the sword and run them across the board. They're surprisingly cheap with that loadout and are just enough of a problem and just tanky enough that your opponent often has to overcommit to dealing with them.
I only wish I properly magnetized my WL's, but they're such a nightmare to do it to.
Speaking of, I assume MSU of War Walkers with BL's are actually fairly decent with expert crafters etc? Again, an instance of annoying to magnetize (and not having enough shuriken cannons) led to me giving them BL's.
Generally, WL's are too slow and have not enough damage output.
If you keep them at the backfield, they can take on deep strikers.
I think its better to have a mobile army flying circles around the enemy atm.
Absolutel agree. standing on objectives in the backfield, shooting well and threatening counterassaults is how I'ved use them, with some kind of success. If you can spare the second trait, double MLs with deny cover is a really nuce pick for them, allowing them to be used for anti infantry if needed.
grouchoben wrote: Absolutel agree. standing on objectives in the backfield, shooting well and threatening counterassaults is how I'ved use them, with some kind of success. If you can spare the second trait, double MLs with deny cover is a really nuce pick for them, allowing them to be used for anti infantry if needed.
Well, I prefer a more mobile army as it can react much better to tactical moves of the enemy and is hard to grasp.
There is no ''backfield'' then. WL would be simply left behind.
Well while we're on the subject, I'd appreciate everyone's opinion. I've been running the following list for a month now, and I'm finding it really hard to settle on how to outfit the AT elements of the list. It's a very dynamic and aggressive list that can tie up opponents in CC, has a strong late-game piece in the Yncarne who synergises with so many disposable CC units, and has very good penetration, but at the cost of glassy infantry. Its core is as follows:
Cursed Blade DE Batallion:
Drazhar (Warlord)
Basic Succubus (Traitor's Embrace)
3 Raiders
2x10 wyches with 2 gauntlets, powersword and shardnet
1x8 wyches with powersword and shardnet
I'd always choose falcons over serpents unless you have stuff you need to protect. With expert crafters and masterful shots falcons with AML are great for the points without the sacrifice to movement that vibros have.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the subject of wraithlords, I'm thinking two just sitting at the back of the board to score engineers looks like a good investment. Naked, at 80 PTS, they're pretty cheap and they're going to be very tough to remove with shooting, especially if you have a very fast army that can keep other stuff away.
I'd always choose falcons over serpents unless you have stuff you need to protect.
Fire Dragons until delivered and Dark Reapers if you go second.
I think both may be better off deepstriking. I'm starting to think a squad of ten reapers arriving turn two may be the best way to use them. Once the layout of the battle has been established, roughly at least, there could be a nice bit of terrain in a corner somewhere they can webway next to, unload a volley and fade behind. As long as you can do your best to protect against enemy deepstriking/counter assaults they could end up in a game winning position.
kingheff wrote:Talking about scorpions has inspired me, I doubt I'll use this and it may not be easy to pull off effectively but...could be a great little troll detachment. Using the shroud drop in the warlock to impair the senses of something like a knight or a riptide or whatever. At the same time dump the three squads of -2 to hit, 2+ save scorpions in some nearby cover and laugh as the enemy struggles to remove it, unless it's marines of course, but that's marines for you, always spoiling our fun! TS or Grey nights could also screw with this but even if it's not possible to pull this off you still get great objective grabbing for not a lot of points.
I'd always choose falcons over serpents unless you have stuff you need to protect.
Fire Dragons until delivered and Dark Reapers if you go second.
I think both may be better off deepstriking. I'm starting to think a squad of ten reapers arriving turn two may be the best way to use them. Once the layout of the battle has been established, roughly at least, there could be a nice bit of terrain in a corner somewhere they can webway next to, unload a volley and fade behind. As long as you can do your best to protect against enemy deepstriking/counter assaults they could end up in a game winning position.
problem with this is you can't use fire and fade the turn you deep strike therefore you need to deep strike into terrain that gives them some cover and hope they don't shoot them. If you deep strike then hiding behind cover then they can't shoot till turn 3.
I'd always choose falcons over serpents unless you have stuff you need to protect.
Fire Dragons until delivered and Dark Reapers if you go second.
I think both may be better off deepstriking. I'm starting to think a squad of ten reapers arriving turn two may be the best way to use them. Once the layout of the battle has been established, roughly at least, there could be a nice bit of terrain in a corner somewhere they can webway next to, unload a volley and fade behind. As long as you can do your best to protect against enemy deepstriking/counter assaults they could end up in a game winning position.
problem with this is you can't use fire and fade the turn you deep strike therefore you need to deep strike into terrain that gives them some cover and hope they don't shoot them. If you deep strike then hiding behind cover then they can't shoot till turn 3.
Well, I don't let the FD and DR Aspects deep strike.
My Eldar will dictate the game.
Fire Dragons are always delivered by Falcons or Serpents.
Dark Reapers are positioned in the back field in round 1 (eventually disembarking from a transport) no matter what.
It is all very in game situational, but I like to have Reapers in position to be utilized with Forewarned. Opponents will react accordingly or receive one heck of a surprise when they bring a unit in from reserve.
I'd always choose falcons over serpents unless you have stuff you need to protect.
Fire Dragons until delivered and Dark Reapers if you go second.
I think both may be better off deepstriking. I'm starting to think a squad of ten reapers arriving turn two may be the best way to use them. Once the layout of the battle has been established, roughly at least, there could be a nice bit of terrain in a corner somewhere they can webway next to, unload a volley and fade behind. As long as you can do your best to protect against enemy deepstriking/counter assaults they could end up in a game winning position.
problem with this is you can't use fire and fade the turn you deep strike therefore you need to deep strike into terrain that gives them some cover and hope they don't shoot them. If you deep strike then hiding behind cover then they can't shoot till turn 3.
Damnit, forgot about that, good catch.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With fire dragons do you have a way to protect them after they fire or are they a suicide unit?
With fire dragons do you have a way to protect them after they fire or are they a suicide unit?
In all editions I played so far FD's are a suicide squad.
They are now slightly more durable as they got a 3+ save (4+ before).
Generally, I take 2 units of 5 and I count on them to get their jobs done.
They've never disappointed me, neither in friendly games nor in a GT.
With fire dragons do you have a way to protect them after they fire or are they a suicide unit?
In all editions I played so far FD's are a suicide squad.
They are now slightly more durable as they got a 3+ save (4+ before).
Generally, I take 2 units of 5 and I count on them to get their jobs done.
They've never disappointed me, neither in friendly games nor in a GT.
The only thing I can think of is using Asurman and protect for a 2+/4++, with fortune as well on a unit of ten it would be inefficient to remove them but whatever happens they're unlikely to survive.
I haven't used them since 5th edition, but the concept appears to be the same. Minimum sized units for one shot attempts as previously described. What you want to layer with the Dragons is basically true for nearly any Craftworld unit. Not sure Dragons would be the best suited to stack up.
Well, FD's are still located top priority in my book.
Recently, I battled SW. Two Dreads were approaching quickly through the centre and TWC incl. Wolf Lord were moving fast targeting the units at one of my flanks.
I sent the two FD squads to destroy the Dreads and the Banshees/Scorpions to hold up the TWC for one round.
It worked. My shooting decimated the TWC and the Autarch (jetbike, laser lance) finished off the Lord.
In the meanwhile, the DR and Serpents killed the units in his backfield.
Game over after round five with SW nothing left.
I'm liking the look of Biel Tan recently, mostly because dire avengers and asurman work very well with it. But the cherry on top is the +2" charge strat on top of swooping dive give Biel Tan spears a 6" charge from the webway which is pretty great.
With fire dragons do you have a way to protect them after they fire or are they a suicide unit?
My difficulty with Fire Dragons is that for about 50% more you can get a Wraithguard who has a similar offensive output but is far more durable with 3 T6 wounds vs 1 T3 wound. Whilst the WG is slower, the availability of transports and the Webway stratagem mean this is rarely a problem.
Once they have fired, your opponent only needs moderate small arms fire to remove Fire Dragons. Wraithguard require a lot more effort to shift. The only real advantage of Fire Dragons is that you can fit twice as many in a Transport if you want big squads. However since 8th is an edition that tends to favour MSU, this is rarely a big advantage.
Well, I know that WG is great unit and unit of 5 delivered by a Serpent can dish out a lot of damage.
I used mine with D-scythes but also the cannons can work well.
WG is simply too expensive for my liking.
I usually mount 5 FDs and 5 DAs in one Serpent which serve dual purposes.
I'm more of a banshees guy myself, I normally run 3x5 in a lot of my lists now. They profit more than any other unit from trasnports as they get 3+1 (base size) + 8 + 1d6 + 3 +2d6 threat range. 1cp, if you have it spare, gives them 21+2d6" threat range when disembarking.
They were always a good utility unit but they got possibly one of the best new exarch powers: piercing strike. When you run expert crafters that normally translates to 2 dead aggressors with no overwatch, for example. 58pts for that much utility is a steal.
My latest lists run 15 basnhees and 28 wyches with drazhar and the yncarne, they all combo together pretty convincingly.
I tend to work WG/WB into my lists because I just love the models and I am going for a wraithbone theme coz the fluff bunny inside me...
But, tbh i think they are overcosted for what they bring. With all things, they need guide and doom for wraith cannons to really work. Having only a 3+ in a world of marine AP and re-rolls their T6 they pay premium for just doesnt cut the mustard. The wraithcannons hit like a truck but as usual you need doom+guide to really make it pay for itself.
I don't think the answer is for them to go down in pts however. (although this has made wraith axes a lot more interesting) I think they need better rules, maybe 1 more wound and a 2+ base and better synnergy with wraithlords, wraith seers and spirit seers plus some stratagems. The vigilus concept is great, IMO, but just waay to expensive CP wise. 3CP to give one unit a 4++ just for 1 turn is a bit much. Would like to see something like this as a flat ability for the spirit seer for 1 CP maybe. At least battle focus would be SOMETHING
grouchoben wrote: What's your chosen exarch power on your FDs out of interest?
With swift step (3d6 on advance, choose highest) plus a quicken your footslogging FDs have a pretty comfortable threat range of + 35 inches that is hard to see coming
Hi all, I'm looking for some advice on windriders, the windrider host and getting the most out of them. I do know the are not our most competitive choice but I don't tourney or ITC and I like the new jetbike models and already have a couple of vypers(1xBL/SC, 1x2SC), so I thought that now might be the time to get me some jetbike goodness as I'm sold on the models and will be getting them whether they are decent in the game or not. I've been running expert crafters and masterfull shots recently but I want to look at others instead of expert crafters for a change as I want each host in my collection to have some thing unique about them. In my meta masterfull shots is just too good as we tend to have really quite terrain heavy tables and with lots of primaris around it's priceless for me so I want to keep that just now and it's consistent over all of my hosts/forces.
My warhost part of my collection will ultimately consist of:
Spoiler:
2 skyrunner farseers,
1 skyrunner autarch, no legends stuff.
20 defenders,
20 storm guardians,
10 rangers,
2+ vypers,
X+ windriders, still to finalise amount but I'm sure I want 5/6 at least, with SC.
2+ WW,
3 VRSW?(vauls wrath support weapons?)
I am a few purchases from finishing this off but next on the hit list comes some windriders, farseer and maybe another vyper or 2 to bulk my current 2 out. Any suggestions on load out for the vypers? I'm thinking of 3 with AML+SC or 3 with 2xSC to partner my single BL one who is now my fave unit in the game since PA:BotP, sorry expert crafters I meant So I guess I'm looking to see if any of you find them usefull/useable and what numbers and weapons are good in/on windrider(SC?) and vyper(AML?) units and what second attribute do you think would suit them best. Even one that might work for the whole warhost above would be amazing to get any suggestions on. I was looking at martial citizenry or maybe webway warriors for the whole host?
Also has anyone tried the windrider host from vigilus and is it worth a punt? Even for a try? I'm looking to try it but I want to have 10-12 widriders and 4-6 vypers, farseer and autarch before I do, so it's a while away, because that 3CP strat needs lots of bodies near that farseer for it to be worth it. But I do feel it could be quite nasty in the right circumstance. Also does anyone know if the strat stacks with shuriken and the 6 to wound becomes -4?
Any and all advice is very welcome.
Cheers, K
I've been running nine vypers in competitive games on TTS recently and they're great.
Cannon and catapults vypers are dirt cheap and easy to make use of hail of doom and superior shurikens.
A saim han outrider with star cannons and the autarch with the relic star Lance is another good combo.
Aeldari missile launchers with the, admittedly expensive, stratagem, for the extra ap are amazing.
I haven't tried windriders but giving scatter lasers a point of ap should make them great for taking down marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The ap does stack with shuriken btw.
kingheff wrote: I've been running nine vypers in competitive games on TTS recently and they're great.
Cannon and catapults vypers are dirt cheap and easy to make use of hail of doom and superior shurikens.
A saim han outrider with star cannons and the autarch with the relic star Lance is another good combo.
Aeldari missile launchers with the, admittedly expensive, stratagem, for the extra ap are amazing.
I haven't tried windriders but giving scatter lasers a point of ap should make them great for taking down marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The ap does stack with shuriken btw.
It's tempest of blades, a 3CP strat for the wind rider host detachment from vigilus. To get the most of it I reckon It need's 3-5 units in close proximity to the farseer to really be worth it.
Spoiler:
Use this Stratagem at the start of your Shooting phase. Pick a WINDRIDER HOST FARSEER SKYRUNNER unit from your army. Improve the Armour Penetration characteristic of shooting attacks made by friendly WINDRIDER HOST units within 6" of the unit you picked by 1 until the end of that phase (e.g. AP-1 would become AP-2).
Cheers @kingheff much appreciated. I did look at saim hann but didn't really consider it because I didn't have the right stuff for it also I'm not a fan of the scatter laser, I do like the idea though. I was considering the AML as don't have any and I'm starcannon'd up elsewhere and I thought this maybe the best place for them. -3 ignore cover AML is tasty. As is -2 catapults and cannons if within 12" right enough but I don't want to be that close ideally.
I'm a big fan of Shuriken cannons everywhere and I think the bikes will all have them. The vypers will also more than likely all have underslung shuriken cannon in addition to whatever else I decide to give them.
I think I'm going to build towards 2x5 windrinders and 3 AML/SC vypers for guiding with. Or 6 SC windriders and 2x2 SC vypers is maybe a better starting spot. Hmmm...
kryczek wrote: It's tempest of blades, a 3CP strat for the wind rider host detachment from vigilus. To get the most of it I reckon It need's 3-5 units in close proximity to the farseer to really be worth it.
Spoiler:
Use this Stratagem at the start of your Shooting phase. Pick a WINDRIDER HOST FARSEER SKYRUNNER unit from your army. Improve the Armour Penetration characteristic of shooting attacks made by friendly WINDRIDER HOST units within 6" of the unit you picked by 1 until the end of that phase (e.g. AP-1 would become AP-2).
Cheers @kingheff much appreciated. I did look at saim hann but didn't really consider it because I didn't have the right stuff for it also I'm not a fan of the scatter laser, I do like the idea though. I was considering the AML as don't have any and I'm starcannon'd up elsewhere and I thought this maybe the best place for them. -3 ignore cover AML is tasty. As is -2 catapults and cannons if within 12" right enough but I don't want to be that close ideally.
I'm a big fan of Shuriken cannons everywhere and I think the bikes will all have them. The vypers will also more than likely all have underslung shuriken cannon in addition to whatever else I decide to give them.
I think I'm going to build towards 2x5 windrinders and 3 AML/SC vypers for guiding with. Or 6 SC windriders and 2x2 SC vypers is maybe a better starting spot. Hmmm...
Cheers, K
Ahh thanks. Yeah the vigilus stuff is very one and done CP investment and you need to really put all eggs in one basket with his one.
I got the rules for wraith host but the windrider one didint grab me so I forgot about it tbh. I don't own the book.
Is that 3 cp for the strat, or 1 cp to make specialist detachment and 2 cp for the strat?
It's 1 CP for the detachment and three for the strat, you need a dual battalion to use it more than once for sure.
But with nine AML/cannon vypers using the strat, falcons with star cannons, a few other star cannons and a night spinner if I remember correctly, all ignoring cover I killed so many primaris in two turns of shooting my imperial fist opponent conceded before his turn two. I rolled hot with my spinner which helped but those vypers are great for killing marines, firing out 9d6 -2 ap missiles ignoring cover is not something marines enjoy taking!
The warlord trait is great too, especially with the saim Han star cannon detachment. Being able to move and shoot without penalty, so hitting on threes, rerolling ones, charging in to avoid being shot, then being able to fall back, shoot and charge back in again is just fantastic. If you can expose a rhino or drop pod and exploit the tactic it can be game winning.
It's 1 CP for the detachment and three for the strat, you need a dual battalion to use it more than once for sure.
But with nine AML/cannon vypers using the strat, falcons with star cannons, a few other star cannons and a night spinner if I remember correctly, all ignoring cover I killed so many primaris in two turns of shooting my imperial fist opponent conceded before his turn two. I rolled hot with my spinner which helped but those vypers are great for killing marines, firing out 9d6 -2 ap missiles ignoring cover is not something marines enjoy taking!
This is actually what I should try against my IF opponent as well.
He runs an almost infantry list with one or two tanks (vindicator, dread).
Who is fielding pure Craftworld armies as opposed to multi codex armies? I started about 6 months ago adding Yvraine to my Craftworld army, then added a Harlequin Vanguard Detachment, to now building a Harlequin Battalion to accompany to Craftworld detachments. This is what it must feel like to play an Imperial soup army. There are just so many combinations to work through. I am enjoying it, especially with the new Harlequin rules.
At the moment I'm just running craftworlds, I've got some drukhari ready to go but I want to use them mono to start with but I don't have enough painted yet.
My current wraith units run Wrath of the Dead as one of their custom traits....really cuts down on the need for Doom to be essential. Great on cannons and hemlocks, not to mention close combat.
With the Harlequin updates I think Eldar are the most fun to soup now, that's just my opinion. I'm having a lot of fun on TTS running various melee options, with 3 falcons carrying 3 piercing-strike banshee squads as the baseline. I'm in a pretty big competition at the moment with lots of very competitive lists in it, so will report back how it all shakes out.
grouchoben wrote: With the Harlequin updates I think Eldar are the most fun to soup now, that's just my opinion. I'm having a lot of fun on TTS running various melee options, with 3 falcons carrying 3 piercing-strike banshee squads as the baseline. I'm in a pretty big competition at the moment with lots of very competitive lists in it, so will report back how it all shakes out.
Nice, I'll be interested to hear how they work out.
I got 2 more on ordder making a pack of 6. I guess everybody is jumping on the bandwagon. I played them before it was cool though 
. The extra attack start for 1 
