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kingheff wrote:
Yeah, I was thinking about an alpha strike. Or possibly if you want something else in the webway, maybe even another guardian bomb.
With the 4++ strat being so cheap and so many decent buffs that can be used to make them really annoying to remove they can absorb lots more enemy firepower than their points suggest.

Storm guardian bodies though..cheaper if they only there for dying right

The advantage of defenders over stormies is that they can dump out 40 shots after double moving/advancing.
I have played around with a maxed out storm guardian blob protecting characters but they don't have the first turn (with quicken) damage potential of defenders.
It's actually pretty funny how tough you can make defenders with platforms. For example,, with the 4++ strat, protect and fortune a rapid firing tactical squad with a captain and lieutenant do less than .7 of a wound. 5 Intercessors with bolt rifles, a chapter master and lieutenant do just over 1.5 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another question, what are our best deepstriking melee units?
I've been thinking about a combo of a farseer with ghost walk and a warlock with focus will. With seer council focus will goes off on a five, ghost walk now goes off on 3 with runes to reroll if denying is an issue.
So assuming the above goes off and taking headstrong as a custom craftworld trait that means your deepstriking unit can get in on a 6+ charge, that's really pretty reliable. The wraith host warlord trait makes the wraith units more reliable still. Same goes for saim Han spears, though they now get a 7" reroll charge.
Personally I'm looking at 10 axe blades coming in from the webway, with their footprint they can charge multiple units easily and soak up so much damage with protect and fortune as to make them horribly inefficient to shoot. I should have mine finished in time for my game this week so I'm looking forward to trying it out.

Currently I am running 5 axe blades in a ynnari detatchment. The idea is to have them ds in range of wraith seer for a 3d6 discard lowest charge and a +1 to hit from stfd. Certainly not as reluable as ghostwalk+headstrong but pretty self sufficient.

20 guardians with two platforms, 4++ strat, protect and fortune is pretty much immovable. 2+/3++/5+++ with 24 wounds, 4 of which have the 2+, and 22 different models, so high damage weapons are nearly useless. You can even put LFR and/or conceal on them if you really want to for another -1/-2 to hit, but that's overkill in 99% of situations. They're also deadly with doom up on literally anything in the game. Hugely cost-effective at 190 points.

Of course, the big weakness is they evaporate without the psychic support and the CP investment.

yukishiro1 wrote:
20 guardians with two platforms, 4++ strat, protect and fortune is pretty much immovable. 2+/3++/5+++ with 24 wounds, 4 of which have the 2+, and 22 different models, so high damage weapons are nearly useless. You can even put LFR and/or conceal on them if you really want to for another -1/-2 to hit, but that's overkill in 99% of situations. They're also deadly with doom up on literally anything in the game. Hugely cost-effective at 190 points.

Of course, the big weakness is they evaporate without the psychic support and the CP investment.

BUT that's 190 pts needing 1 cp for celestial shield, 1 CP for seer council to ensure protect doom guide goes off, and then vey likely another 2 CP to keep them from failing morale and fleeing (unless you going alitoic with puritanical leader in which case further 2 CP for LFR to stack on top of alitoic). Seer council is bit o an auto spend anyway in any situation in my opinion. Ive been shirked by dice too many times not to do it every turn lol. They sure as hell hold the objective you want them to hold. I might go back to guardian bomb without but without platforms + storm guardian bomb without fusion. Start one unit on the board for early objective holding and DS the other unit to capture further objectives. The trouble is storm bolters are a thing. Will rejig one of my lists to see if I can make it stick.

Someone has to devote a pretty ridiculous amount of firepower to your squad to require you to spend the 2CP on the auto-pass morale. At that point they're basically shooting their whole army at your guardian squad...which means you're probably winning that game handily.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Someone has to devote a pretty ridiculous amount of firepower to your squad to require you to spend the 2CP on the auto-pass morale. At that point they're basically shooting their whole army at your guardian squad...which means you're probably winning that game handily.

Not really with the ROF in the form of storm bolters etc its not that difficult to find.

I think the platforms are definitely worth it because of how you can allocate saves, 0 ap on the platforms for a 2+, any ap at all on the guardians for the 3++, losing 8ppm makes them great for frustrating your opponent.
I remember a game when my thousand son opponent was feeling great because he killed something like 15 storm guardians in the psychic phase until I pointed out that he'd done less than 100 PTS of damage.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Annihilating what? Tau use characters and strat for markers nowadays.

I know, this is really bad news.
This was different in the 7th ed when it was possible to annihilate most of the marker lights in round one. Hello Warwalkers appearing at a flank.

 Argive wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Someone has to devote a pretty ridiculous amount of firepower to your squad to require you to spend the 2CP on the auto-pass morale. At that point they're basically shooting their whole army at your guardian squad...which means you're probably winning that game handily.

Not really with the ROF in the form of storm bolters etc its not that difficult to find.

A guardian squad with conceal/celestial shield / fortune takes about 1 wound per 15 bolter shots from MEQ (assuming the shots have AP so you take it on the guardians, if they have 0AP or -1AP and you're in cover it becomes even more ridiculous if you take them on the platforms), or per 11ish shots with chaptermaster/lieutenant buffs. So you're looking at needing like 75 or 60ish with buffs to be getting to the point where it's even worth thinking about spending the cp for the morale pass, and over 100 to the point where it becomes a no-brainer. If they're devoting that much firepower to your guardian squad, things are going pretty well for you.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Argive wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Someone has to devote a pretty ridiculous amount of firepower to your squad to require you to spend the 2CP on the auto-pass morale. At that point they're basically shooting their whole army at your guardian squad...which means you're probably winning that game handily.

Not really with the ROF in the form of storm bolters etc its not that difficult to find.

A guardian squad with conceal/celestial shield / fortune takes about 1 wound per 15 bolter shots from MEQ (assuming the shots have AP so you take it on the guardians, if they have 0AP or -1AP and you're in cover it becomes even more ridiculous if you take them on the platforms), or per 11ish shots with chaptermaster/lieutenant buffs. So you're looking at needing like 75 or 60ish with buffs to be getting to the point where it's even worth thinking about spending the cp for the morale pass, and over 100 to the point where it becomes a no-brainer. If they're devoting that much firepower to your guardian squad, things are going pretty well for you.

Generly speaking if you are getting fortune you are not doing doom&guide. So then thats another 110pts investment in the form of a seconfary farseer.

Im certainly not arguing that they van be rrsiliant in the right circuimstances. But saying this unit will get all the buffs and the right trait means you kind of build your army around the troop unit, over invest in support and end up compromising your firce. 60 bolter shots arent that rare with gk and centurions /agressors being a thing

That's a lot of buffs to spend on guardians. I can't imagine being worth it unless it's the end of the game and you're trying to win on objectives.

Definitely, unless you build your army in a way that they don't have many other choices of targets to shoot at. The fortune especially is probably not worth taking in most match-ups unless you are running double farseer anyway. Protect and celestial shield at much more viable since you're always going to have a protect/jinx warlock and the strat is only 1CP.

The point isn't that you'd want to do that all the time or even most of the time, just that it's an option and it makes them incredibly hard to shift, even if it's only 2+/3++ without the fortune.

That's the cool thing about a guardian blob: they can either be a serious threat to anything in the game with doom/guide, or be incredibly resilient with protect/cs/fortune, or some combination of the two. They give you a lot of options, and importantly, options that you don't have to commit to before you know your opponent, because you get to choose psychic powers after seeing their list. The weakness being they aren't all that much of anything on their own without psychic support.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Definitely, unless you build your army in a way that they don't have many other choices of targets to shoot at. The fortune especially is probably not worth taking in most match-ups unless you are running double farseer anyway. Protect and celestial shield at much more viable since you're always going to have a protect/jinx warlock and the strat is only 1CP.

The point isn't that you'd want to do that all the time or even most of the time, just that it's an option and it makes them incredibly hard to shift, even if it's only 2+/3++ without the fortune.

That's the cool thing about a guardian blob: they can either be a serious threat to anything in the game with doom/guide, or be incredibly resilient with protect/cs/fortune, or some combination of the two. They give you a lot of options, and importantly, options that you don't have to commit to before you know your opponent, because you get to choose psychic powers after seeing their list. The weakness being they aren't all that much of anything on their own without psychic support.

Do you? I was under the impression most tourneys need you to submit your list beforehand and not change the powers.

For those that play ITC, how has this season's format impacted your army? I've been away since early January and have not had a chance to get in any games.

 Argive wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Definitely, unless you build your army in a way that they don't have many other choices of targets to shoot at. The fortune especially is probably not worth taking in most match-ups unless you are running double farseer anyway. Protect and celestial shield at much more viable since you're always going to have a protect/jinx warlock and the strat is only 1CP.

The point isn't that you'd want to do that all the time or even most of the time, just that it's an option and it makes them incredibly hard to shift, even if it's only 2+/3++ without the fortune.

That's the cool thing about a guardian blob: they can either be a serious threat to anything in the game with doom/guide, or be incredibly resilient with protect/cs/fortune, or some combination of the two. They give you a lot of options, and importantly, options that you don't have to commit to before you know your opponent, because you get to choose psychic powers after seeing their list. The weakness being they aren't all that much of anything on their own without psychic support.

Do you? I was under the impression most tourneys need you to submit your list beforehand and not change the powers.

I don't know about "most tourneys" because that depends on your area, but the rules clearly state you don't have to choose psychic powers, warlord traits, relics etc until after you've seen your opponent's army.

ITC follows this, for example:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ltQMdeDqYRXOhvdYT3dtUSji3AISvZRM8gDlhOXDaF8/edit?fbclid=IwAR3CnUrJjoQFflXClmUqKuA7HRrARIElJuE3F_1DQ29w9ImqOKQgcukZRro

Pre-Game
Step 1: Before any dice are rolled, players adjust and define terrain on the board, then both players choose Warlord Traits, Psychic Powers, spend pre-deployment command points, free relic, and any additional Relics they wish to use. These should be written or notated clearly for reference in game.

Question for all of you- Are eldar viable in a low point scenerio? My FLGS was going to run a league with the following rules:
750 pts, must be a patrol and, can't have any LoW. The league has been postponed but when it is starting I was thinking of particiapating.

I have some ideas but I'd like to see what others think. My army:

HQ: Assurman, Farseer with Doom and Gude

Troops: Rangers x10, 2 units of 8 Avengers including Exarchs

Fast: 6 Spiders including Exarch

Heavy: 2 shadow weavers

Total 741 pts. I am thinking about a custom craftword that gives my shurikens +4" range and all of my models a 5+++ save.

The rangers are my board control (especially with the Farseer's help). The Avengers should do well in taking and holding objectives with at least one unit being able to benefit from a 4++ save. The spiders are my anti-troop weapon with their mobility and high str weapons. The shadow weavers should be able to remove most anything that likes to hide.

C&C welcome.

Well, what are the restrictions posed on army lists?

In low pt games, the Lancester square law comes in very hand,
i.e., doubling the number of tanks required four-folding the number of anti-tank weapons to combat them.
This is the version of WW II, but is also applicable to 40k.

Like I posted before the limitations are 750 points and only 1 patrol detachment.

750 points games are much more rock - paper - scissors than 2000 point games.

It's easier to put together skew lists towards high toughness (Tyranid monster patrol with three warriors and all the rest as HQ/Elite/HS monsters), towards high model count (100 ork boys and a weirdboy), etc.

It's also more difficult in your 750 points to prepare for the outlier skew builds.

I have found in this environment that Wave Serpents with anti-infantry weapons (shuriken or scatter) are of outsize value. They're very difficult to remove (even more so than in 2000 point games where a lot more firepower can be concentrated), they can protect squishier elements, they can charge enemy units with high firepower and force them to fall back and not shoot -- they're just a great utility knife.

If you want to skew, I've done very well overloading with guardians and storm guardians, as well as with running multiple wraithlords (also very tough to remove).

Your core of a Farseer for Doom and a Warlock for Jinx remain critical -- the ability to remove a unit that you need to remove is greatly facilitated by these powers when you can only send 750 points of firepower down range instead of 2000.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The last event I played 750 points at was a 16 player tournament; I took first with the following list. Top table was Eldar versus Eldar -- the 2nd place player used a Warlock Skyrunner Conclave.

HQ
Farseer, Doom, Executioner, Spear

Troops
8 Storm Guardians - 2 Fusion Guns

Elite
5 Striking Scorpions, Exarch with Claw, Sustained Attack
8 Wraithguard with wraithcannons

HS
Wraithlord with Bright Lance and Ghostglaive, shuricats
Wraithlord with AML, Bright Lance, and Ghostglaive, shuricats

As you can see, this is more of a skew towards toughness. I dodged the 100 Ork boy list, which was fortunate for me as I would have almost certainly lost to it.

This is how I'd go for it, lots of shuriken, fast and 2+ saves from more than 12" away with jinx to help with tougher targets.


++ Patrol Detachment (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [52 PL, 748pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Craftworld Attribute
. *Custom Craftworld*: Hail of Doom, Masters of Concealment

+ HQ +

Warlock Skyrunner [4 PL, 62pts]: 0. Smite, 4. Protect/Jinx, Shuriken Pistol, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Witchblade

+ Troops +

Dire Avengers [3 PL, 58pts]
. 4x Dire Avenger: 4x Avenger Shuriken Catapult, 4x Plasma Grenades
. Dire Avenger Exarch: Two Avenger Shuriken Catapults
. . Exarch Power: Bladestorm

Dire Avengers [3 PL, 58pts]
. 4x Dire Avenger: 4x Avenger Shuriken Catapult, 4x Plasma Grenades
. Dire Avenger Exarch: Two Avenger Shuriken Catapults
. . Exarch Power: Bladestorm

+ Fast Attack +

Vypers [12 PL, 165pts]
. Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon
. Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon
. Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon

Vypers [12 PL, 165pts]
. Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon
. Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon
. Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon

+ Heavy Support +

Falcon [9 PL, 120pts]: Crystal Targeting Matrix, Starcannon, Twin Shuriken Catapult

Falcon [9 PL, 120pts]: Crystal Targeting Matrix, Starcannon, Twin Shuriken Catapult

++ Total: [52 PL, 748pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Well, I'd prefer Kingheff's list as it implements the Lanchester square law quite reasonable,
with two Falcons which are hard to remove at this pt level.
The Vypers normally fill gaps in the gun line of an Eldar army,
but here have a main role which is not a bad idea at small pt levels.

I've considered Serpents instead of Falcons and give each of them 3 shuricannons as Biel-Tan.
More resilient and more bang for the bucks.

Serpents are tougher but aren't great for offence for their points, it depends what you want them to do really.

 kingheff wrote:
Serpents are tougher but aren't great for offence for their points, it depends what you want them to do really.

Think about three Serpents with three shuricannons each fielded in a BT army.
They have 27 shots with rerolling of 1's.

Those serpents cost more than three fire prisms though, falcons with two shuriken cannons and the pulse laser are 27 PTS cheaper each.
Serpents are great transports but the other tanks are better for fire support.

100% agreed -- Falcons deliver much more offense, Wave Serpents deliver much more durability. Both are solid choices, which is nice for a change (as opposed to most of the last twenty years). Take what you want for how you want your list to function!

Nice list, Kingheff, I like the saturation of reasonably tough flying mid-strength output. Lots of movement options, lots of shooting that can harm a wide variety of targets.

Thanks, I've been looking at using vypers for screening.
With the twin cannons they're still under ten points per wound with toughness and armour that makes them very resistant to typical anti screening firepower and they can fly so can't be pinned down. Plus they're biker units so can benefit from plenty of buffs too. Overall I think they're a useful unit that can provide a decent backbone for not a lot of points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As an example of what I mean, let's compare three vypers with twin cannons to a squad of ten intercessors with the standard rifles. Bearing in mind intercessors are arguably the gold standard for cheap, tough troops.
This assumes no buffs, traits or cover for either.
With their 18 shots the vypers do 3.66 wounds to the intercessors.
With their 20 shots, I've given them rapid fire since they have the range advantage, they do 2.22 wounds in return.
So, it takes roughly six rounds of shooting for the vypers to clear the intercessors but roughly eight rounds of shooting for the intercessors to clear the vypers.
The stalker bolters do 2.96 wounds and the assault bolters do 2.22 wounds by comparison.

 kingheff wrote:
Those serpents cost more than three fire prisms though, falcons with two shuriken cannons and the pulse laser are 27 PTS cheaper each.
Serpents are great transports but the other tanks are better for fire support.

Well, I never go out without Fire Dragons and I've played lots of tourneys.
They are an important building block when combating the enemy at all threat ranges.
But here at small pt levels they can be neglected.

Don't get me wrong, I use serpents too, they're very good but they need something worth transporting, like dragons, to make the most of them.
Before the points drops on the other tanks serpents durability made up for the lesser firepower but now the other tanks are cheaper so the serpents need something good inside.

 kingheff wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I use serpents too, they're very good but they need something worth transporting, like dragons, to make the most of them.
Before the points drops on the other tanks serpents durability made up for the lesser firepower but now the other tanks are cheaper so the serpents need something good inside.

Seconded.

My Serpents usually contain two units which complement each other such as Fire Dragons and Dire Avengers,
or more cc oriented, Banshees and Scorpions.