Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I recently run a list with a squad of 3 Warwalker with double scatter against GSC
Their perform was excellent. The list was a Harlequin - Custom CWE with masterful shots (which helps a great deal weapons like shuriken cannons and scatters) and students of vaul.

They arrived on the enemy side and kill a bunch of Cultist GEQ. I really like the warwalkers and wasp

Against chaff scatter lasers are amazing, ignoring cover they can even pick up marines, especially in combination with jinx.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With the nerf to chapter masters I wonder if alaitoc is worth looking at again. Not flyer span obviously but a general long range shooting army, possibly with allies to provide screen/board control?

 kingheff wrote:
Against chaff scatter lasers are amazing, ignoring cover they can even pick up marines, especially in combination with jinx.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With the nerf to chapter masters I wonder if alaitoc is worth looking at again. Not flyer span obviously but a general long range shooting army, possibly with allies to provide screen/board control?

I could totally envision a backline detachment taking advantage of the Alaitoc rules and a detachment of midfield wraith units to screen for them. Our flyers might not make the most use of it, but given that a number of models can now get +1 to hit, sometimes specifically against flyers, could it still be worth having -2 to help negate that?

 kingheff wrote:
Against chaff scatter lasers are amazing, ignoring cover they can even pick up marines, especially in combination with jinx.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With the nerf to chapter masters I wonder if alaitoc is worth looking at again. Not flyer span obviously but a general long range shooting army, possibly with allies to provide screen/board control?

Missed that... whats the nerf?


Also... does the swooping hawk exarch get a +1 str power sword now?

According to the latest FAQ if your model has a "power sword" then you get to use the +1S version. If it is something like a "power sword", but not named a "power sword" ,then you are stuck with whatever is in the Codex.

Alaitoc flyers are definitely worth considering, I just don't think the spam list works.
Chapter masters now only choose a single unit to give the full rerolls to, otherwise just acting as a normal captain for reroll ones.
Yep, all power swords get the strength buff, hawk exarches included.

Alaitoc could be worth it for potentially running a vanguard of night spinners or fire prisms to give them a little bit more survivability and sticking a flyer in there too would add to that. Considering the likes of the CHE and Fire Prisms having rerolls for free or at the cost of 1CP, the -1 to hit might add a good chance of survival to allow a gunline portion of the army to be useful.

Add that to a battalion that focuses on board control you might be on to something (Harlies are an easy option here)

Anything that might allow fire prisms to be usable in a competitive sense would be great.

I have the idea of running 3 min squads of dark reapers and an Autarch all in a wave serpent for protection against 1st turn shenanigans. the trick is to use Custom CWE's Expert crafters and maybe the masterful shots so that you have 9 dark reapers that reroll 1s to hit and have 3 rerolls to hit and to wound (and also ignore cover) maybe taking the exarch's rapid shot for extra dakka

What do you think about it?

Generally I prefer a bigger block of reapers firing and fading from behind obscuring terrain to minimise the chance of being shot back. Certainly the MSU approach is good for efficiency but I'd worry about them being shot off the board, reapers are one of those units that will get targeted hard if your opponent gets the chance.

 Dol Guldur wrote:


I have the idea of running 3 min squads of dark reapers and an Autarch all in a wave serpent for protection against 1st turn shenanigans. the trick is to use Custom CWE's Expert crafters and maybe the masterful shots so that you have 9 dark reapers that reroll 1s to hit and have 3 rerolls to hit and to wound (and also ignore cover) maybe taking the exarch's rapid shot for extra dakka

What do you think about it?

This was my main go to configuration in 8th and it is savagely effective. But you have to really consider the placement/positioning as the reapers are really fragile so ensure terrain and screening is of paramount importance.. I always took 2x tempest exarchs with rain of death and 1x AML exarch+double tap power (skyhawk missle strat).
Honestly, I dont think they even need an autarch to babysit them. Without a reaper launcher he's bit of wasted points just for reapers. I run magun ra a couple of times to get around craftworld trait limitations for reroll ones but hes just too expensive IMO.

BUT if you throw in some other long-range firepower in the backfield like wraith lord etc. I think its good play for the first 2 turns. But you just wont be able to maintain that castle after that IMO as things will need to move to cap/ counter charge. To be honets my 9th experiance is pretty much non-existant.

Played a game last week with my wraith themed Eldar. Wrath of the Dead and Hunters of Hidden Relics is such a great combo for a game centered around taking and holding objectives. Its too bad that Iyanden trait doesn't even come close to matching this. I just say they are from the House of Ulthanesh and this is their traits.
Even regular wraithguard become better in combat with that extra attack. Axe Guard are just plain nasty.

 Dol Guldur wrote:


I have the idea of running 3 min squads of dark reapers and an Autarch all in a wave serpent for protection against 1st turn shenanigans. the trick is to use Custom CWE's Expert crafters and maybe the masterful shots so that you have 9 dark reapers that reroll 1s to hit and have 3 rerolls to hit and to wound (and also ignore cover) maybe taking the exarch's rapid shot for extra dakka

What do you think about it?

I'm in the same boat as kingheff, I prefer a big squad of reapers that have the potential to fire and fade behind terrain pieces while a guide seer baby sits them. One of my favourite tricks during more competitive games was to fire and fade the unit into a terrain feature while leaving the reapers out of LoS to the majority of my opponents army and screen out the rest of the board so the only "good" place to deepstrike is behind the reapers to activate forewarned with a farseer nearby. Guide lasting until my next psychic phase was always a lovely addition too. Bloodletters, grey knights and obliterators never had a good time and it was a nice trick to help board control.

That trick isn't as applicable with 3x3 squads, hence my preference for big squads. I will say that in 9th, I am not sure Dark Reapers are worth it, with the prevalence of T5, 3W models like custodes and gravis marines running around reducing the killing potential of big and small squads. Expensive, 1W T3 infantry are just too easily killed in a meta which promotes proactive plays and more board control than what was common in 8th.

 bullyboy wrote:
Played a game last week with my wraith themed Eldar. Wrath of the Dead and Hunters of Hidden Relics is such a great combo for a game centered around taking and holding objectives. Its too bad that Iyanden trait doesn't even come close to matching this. I just say they are from the House of Ulthanesh and this is their traits.
Even regular wraithguard become better in combat with that extra attack. Axe Guard are just plain nasty.

Nice. Do you run two squads of Axe guard with wave serpents? I haven't played any Eldar in 9th yet, so I have been trying to get a feel for a feel for the best uses for wraith.

I am planning to turn a Wraithlord kit into a Wraitseer and combine a wraith host type detachment with your standard falcon and DA back field.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 Dol Guldur wrote:


I have the idea of running 3 min squads of dark reapers and an Autarch all in a wave serpent for protection against 1st turn shenanigans. the trick is to use Custom CWE's Expert crafters and maybe the masterful shots so that you have 9 dark reapers that reroll 1s to hit and have 3 rerolls to hit and to wound (and also ignore cover) maybe taking the exarch's rapid shot for extra dakka

What do you think about it?

I'm in the same boat as kingheff, I prefer a big squad of reapers that have the potential to fire and fade behind terrain pieces while a guide seer baby sits them. One of my favourite tricks during more competitive games was to fire and fade the unit into a terrain feature while leaving the reapers out of LoS to the majority of my opponents army and screen out the rest of the board so the only "good" place to deepstrike is behind the reapers to activate forewarned with a farseer nearby. Guide lasting until my next psychic phase was always a lovely addition too. Bloodletters, grey knights and obliterators never had a good time and it was a nice trick to help board control.

That trick isn't as applicable with 3x3 squads, hence my preference for big squads. I will say that in 9th, I am not sure Dark Reapers are worth it, with the prevalence of T5, 3W models like custodes and gravis marines running around reducing the killing potential of big and small squads. Expensive, 1W T3 infantry are just too easily killed in a meta which promotes proactive plays and more board control than what was common in 8th.

Ohh yeah totes. I think the reapers have done really bad out of the transition/new marines..
With the mod cap their always hitting on 3+ rule they are paying premium for doesnt really seem worth it anymore.
Flat damage 3 is nice but not at the current pts... and not at -2 With the smaller table the 48" range also no longer means as much. Before could back line them if you get hammer and anvil type deployment and just out range stuff forcing opponents to use long rage usualy heavy AT guns in order to remove them which was very overkill for T3 1W models. Now not so much.

The MSU approach is still sound I think but with the terrain rules I probably would opt for bigegr blob fire and fade. But then would just take falcolns/star cannon platforms insetead.

I think reapers are still very good offensively, assuming guide, doom and rapid shot, 10 reapers kill 11 two wound marines and pretty much six gravis marines. Assuming you can keep them safe reapers are still strong. With less out of line of sight shooting in marines now I can see reapers being easier to use.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:

 Dol Guldur wrote:


I have the idea of running 3 min squads of dark reapers and an Autarch all in a wave serpent for protection against 1st turn shenanigans. the trick is to use Custom CWE's Expert crafters and maybe the masterful shots so that you have 9 dark reapers that reroll 1s to hit and have 3 rerolls to hit and to wound (and also ignore cover) maybe taking the exarch's rapid shot for extra dakka

What do you think about it?

I'm in the same boat as kingheff, I prefer a big squad of reapers that have the potential to fire and fade behind terrain pieces while a guide seer baby sits them. One of my favourite tricks during more competitive games was to fire and fade the unit into a terrain feature while leaving the reapers out of LoS to the majority of my opponents army and screen out the rest of the board so the only "good" place to deepstrike is behind the reapers to activate forewarned with a farseer nearby. Guide lasting until my next psychic phase was always a lovely addition too. Bloodletters, grey knights and obliterators never had a good time and it was a nice trick to help board control.

That trick isn't as applicable with 3x3 squads, hence my preference for big squads. I will say that in 9th, I am not sure Dark Reapers are worth it, with the prevalence of T5, 3W models like custodes and gravis marines running around reducing the killing potential of big and small squads. Expensive, 1W T3 infantry are just too easily killed in a meta which promotes proactive plays and more board control than what was common in 8th.

I want to thank y'all for the interesting view points. like you said, the option of running a big squad or at least a 5 man squad and the farseer for protection has workout for me in the past. I have some doubts of the applicability of the forewarned strat. against GSC shenanigans ant the like.

The point of them being so squishy i agree too. They're very good but easy to kill

I do think the forewarned strat is the same as every other kind of reactive stratagem, it can be played around by a good opponent but it can force your opponent to make errors, which is what I quite like about reactive stratagems in the game.

So while I enjoyed the trick, it was an occasionally used one and you shouldn't build around it.

I do think I will have to try them out again, be it online or in person, but I feel spending over 350 points for a unit of those base stats is a bit too much.

I've been having fun on TTS with a Biel tan battalion featuring two squads of three war walkers with star cannons, using guide and the natural leader warlord trait to give both units guide.
I've used forewarned a couple of times, my warlord is a farseer and naturally baby-sits one unit opening up the forewarned strat. Mostly it stops deep striking with valuable units (or they come in behind obscuring terrain) but I had one time when a guy dropped down six plasma inceptors, despite my warning, he lost half the squad and the game.
It's a great stratagem since it can either punish or disrupt your opponent's plan.

My top units of 9e so far have been the Yncarne and msu shining spears with Hunters + Hail of Doom. Each squad gets skilled rider for a 3++.

They deploy very defensively and I can normally get them all out of LoS turn one. Each turn I yeet one forward with Quicken for a 42" threat range. Great for being where I need them, tying in CC, killing backfield campers, etc.

I also still dig mechdar, and just lean into Bring it Down.

Our troops are the worst in the game. Strongly considering running spearhead and outrider...

Yeah, I think trying to avoid giving up bring it down is a waste of time unfortunately. Whether it's transports or other vehicles, it's just really hard to come up with a list that doesn't melt without them.
I still think three squads of avengers is decent enough for the utility of the infantry keyword and they're only a cp to reserve all three if necessary.

Given the proliferation of largely effective AT weaponry/units at the moment I like your list, KingHeff. A lot of smaller vehicles seems like it would serve to overwhelm the opponents availability of AT in their list. That being said though, wouldn't each vehicle provide points or if you take a unit of 3 vypers, do they have to destroy the entire unit, or would each model provide the score?

That's the idea behind the list, only AT weapons really threaten it and it's got a lot of cheap wounds to soak up the AT players bring. I have changed the list because three wraithseers just give up too many secondary points but the principle remains, flood the board with cheap tough units that largely nullify anti infantry gunfire whilst packing enough of a punch to clear objectives for things like vypers to sit on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course I know I start 15 points down from bring it down but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make because the list won't work any other way.

So, 15 points from Bring it Down I am understanding that each secondary objective can only give 15 points for a total of 45?

And you can earn a maximum of 15 points in your command phase from primaries right?

Up to fifteen points per secondary, some are worth less.
Maximum of fifteen primary points per round, maxing out at 45 in each game. So a total of 90 points plus 10 available for a tabletop standard painted army.

General tactical question- do you think that a Wraithlord with 2 flamers and nothing else would work as a good distraction Carnifex? It's 110 points but it could do some work if ignored and the 2 flamers could throw some units into a tizzy. Also with the new rules if your opponent closes with the Wraithlord and doesn't kill it then you get another round of shooting and (probably poor) melee out of it.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
General tactical question- do you think that a Wraithlord with 2 flamers and nothing else would work as a good distraction Carnifex? It's 110 points but it could do some work if ignored and the 2 flamers could throw some units into a tizzy. Also with the new rules if your opponent closes with the Wraithlord and doesn't kill it then you get another round of shooting and (probably poor) melee out of it.

I dont know why you wouldn't at least give it 1 star cannon though... If you paying 110 for a distraction carnifex might as well go the extra mile and get some mileage out of it...
With only 4 attacks and WS3 (before degradation) it just doesnt kill enough MEQ in CC plus flamers. The flamers should do some work against T3 chaff. However I believe any opponent worth his salt will just ignore it and throw chaff at it which it just won't be able to kill quick enough. But if you combo star cannons with melee and expert crafters it gains a lot of duality and its threat is exponentially increased meaning it will more likely be targeted.

Its got a decent 8" movement on top profile and no longer suffers penalty for moving so you ideally want it marching towards either some High T 3w elite infantry or a vehicle.

However it just is not a great unit as much as I hate to admit it. As a weapon platform it is outclassed by much more efficient war walkers, highly mobile Vypers and Falcons which offer utility to transport.
Its paying premium for a T8 3+ which is just laughable in the world of imperial melta.

It still has a place in casual games and will hold its own in most friendly games I think. I love my wraithlords, and will just run 3 regardless pf how bad they are ..
But realistically if you looking up the ante from a "competative" standpoint id take falcolns, or vypers or war walker instead.

If you do want to run them Id recommend using expert crafters and masters of concealment for a 2+ cover save and try hide them behind terrain to get modifiers and hang out in the backfield as a counter charge piece and a nice bit of dakka. You can drop tears of isha as well for a cheeky heal.

After taking several losses over the past couple of months trying to make a Craftworld/Harlequin army that did not give up Bring Them Down points, I went back to a mechanized Craftworld list for a one day tourney. All three games were against Marines; Dark Angels, Dark Angels, Ravenguard. I went back to a mechanized list as I was more comfortable rules wise, it is quicker for me to play, and I banked on Space Marines being the most common army (which turned out to be true).

A few key lessons I learned.

-Be patient and try not to over extend the army. If I felt I would over expose a unit just to get Engage on All Fronts on turn 1, I simply didn't get the points. My turn one movement was a bit more conservative, even with two fliers. Out of all three games, I lost a total of 5 tanks and 0 fliers. In the later rounds, after eliminating key threats, I would be able to push out earning the points.

- I would generally only hold two objectives. My focus would be to remove my opponent from enough objectives so he would not hold more than me. In the early rounds, this proved difficult as Marines have fantastic board presence. However, I could make up the deficit in later rounds.

- A unit of 3 Hornets and Forewarning removes Eliminators. This ability creates significant challenges for opponents as I would get the opportunity to position this unit in such a way to maximize LOS. If they wanted to threaten my army, they would end up getting shot by 18 Hornet Pulse Lasers first (with Guide).

- Deploy Scramblers is an auto take. 3x5 Dire Avengers finally have utility for me. 2x5 start in Webway Strike and 1x5 started in a Wave Serpent. Turn 1, DA get out of Wave Serpent and Deploy Scramblers. Turns 2 and 3 each have a DA squad drop down and Deploy Scramblers. I earned max points every fame. I will experiment with Strategic Reserve and see if I get as much utility as Webway Strike. It will save me 2 CP.

-While We Stand, We Fight worked well. This is very matchup dependent. If I feel my opponentdoes not have enough shooting, I took this and gained max points out of the two games I chose this secondary.

In the end, I went 2-1 and took 5th out of 20. I lost to balanced Dark Angel army whom I had trouble removing from objectives. Azreal combined with judicious use of Transhuman Physiology proved quite difficult to eliminate key units.

The list was a lot of high AP shooting.

Farseer
2 Warlock Conclave (use for long range Jinx)
3 x 5 Dire Avengers
3 Hornets (one unit)
3 Wave Serpents
2 Falcons
2 Crimson Hunter Exarch.

Starcannons, Pulse Lasers, Hornet Pulse Lasers with Expert Crafters worked well. However, this list will still suffer against a horde type army.

 Sazzlefrats wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
Against chaff scatter lasers are amazing, ignoring cover they can even pick up marines, especially in combination with jinx.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With the nerf to chapter masters I wonder if alaitoc is worth looking at again. Not flyer span obviously but a general long range shooting army, possibly with allies to provide screen/board control?

Missed that... whats the nerf?


Also... does the swooping hawk exarch get a +1 str power sword now?

Masters don't have aura of reroll everything. Instead it's aura of rr1's and can get upgrade that gives full rerolls to one core(so basically anything not vehicle(except dreadnought) or centurions) or character.

They are less of buff everything around and more of buff one nasty unit and be monsters on their own right(you can literally make T8 chapter masters if you wish...).

So with less full rerolls the -1 to hit has bigger impact than before. Before hit accuracy was 75%, now it is 58% except for one unit(with no vehicles(bar dreadnought) or centurions benefitting from that)

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
General tactical question- do you think that a Wraithlord with 2 flamers and nothing else would work as a good distraction Carnifex? It's 110 points but it could do some work if ignored and the 2 flamers could throw some units into a tizzy. Also with the new rules if your opponent closes with the Wraithlord and doesn't kill it then you get another round of shooting and (probably poor) melee out of it.

The lord can definitely work as a distraction/move blocker but I find the best way is to give him shuriken cannon/s and advance him then fire and fade giving him a 15+d6 inch movement which should really get him up in your opponent's face for 110 PTS and 1cp.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I honestly don't know if you can make a good craftworlds list without giving up bring it down, I can't anyway. But it's ironic that craftworlds are basically the worst army in 40k but we actually match up pretty well against marines!

 kingheff wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
General tactical question- do you think that a Wraithlord with 2 flamers and nothing else would work as a good distraction Carnifex? It's 110 points but it could do some work if ignored and the 2 flamers could throw some units into a tizzy. Also with the new rules if your opponent closes with the Wraithlord and doesn't kill it then you get another round of shooting and (probably poor) melee out of it.

The lord can definitely work as a distraction/move blocker but I find the best way is to give him shuriken cannon/s and advance him then fire and fade giving him a 15+d6 inch movement which should really get him up in your opponent's face for 110 PTS and 1cp.

That's a really interesting variation on what I was thinking. Do you think it would be worth it for the Wraithlord to have 2 cannons (120 pts) and use a 2nd CP to guarantee him a "6" on the advance (thereby giving him a 22" move and shooting)?

I was originally just thinking that I would throw him up front into my opponents face and use him as cover for the rest of my army while they deal with him in their lines.