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I won my game this morning, for anyone who’s interested - pure Craftworlds (Expert Crafters, Children of Prophecy) vs. Imperial Fists.
My list is further up this thread; my opponents was roughly:
> Repulsor Executioner
> Invictus Warsuit
> Flyer with assault cannons (?!)
> 4x five-man infiltrator/incursion units (I don’t remember which)
> 2x five-man rapid-Fire Helblasters
> 2x five-man Reivers, one of which could deep-Strike
> 1x three man Aggressors with boltstorm gauntlets
> mini marine Lieutenant
> Cataphrapct Captain
Scenario was pre-determined to be “Scorched Earth” from the BRB, and I chose for secondaries: Engage on all Fronts; Bring it Down; Psycich Ritual.
My opponent, the gentleman that he is, had the table already setup in advance of my arrival. Roughly symmetrical layout, with some nice LOS-blocking pieces on both sides. The sensible play would have been to put both of my planes into reserves, as they were the only high-value models I couldn’t protect first turn by just hiding... instead I put everything on the table bar my Rangers (who I personally rate very high - their offensive output may be sub-par, and the loss of the innate -1 to hit sucks BUT I don’t have to pay for a transport to keep them safe!), and banked on getting first turn!
Which I did!
I managed to shoot/psychic the Executioner, Invictor and a squad of incursors off the table on my first turn, and after that more or less had air superiority for the rest of the game.
I tabled the Fists in my fourth turn, and ended the game 92-18. I feel a bit dirty if I’m honest, as I’d teched for this match pretty hard after our last game :/ but still happy with how I played too. Sometimes my target priority is on point... sometimes I get carried away with playing my latest unit and lose focus.
We’re now 1-1, so next month’s game will be an intense one! Especially if the marine Codex is released by then...
Seeing as you scored so highly, were you happy with the secondaries you'd picked? Were there any other points to note during the game that you'd like to discuss?
@Tyranid Horde - Yes very happy with the secondaries I chose. Once I knew there were only 8/9 points available for “Bring it down” I was tempted to switch for the mission objective (“Raze”), but didn’t. I hindsight, I totally could have achieved that and maxed out - but reckoned the safe play was to stick with “bring it down” as those pieces needed to die anyway, My list has huge mobility, so “Engage” wasn’t hard (except for two turns where I goofed the placement), and the Wraithseer was the perfect fit for “Psychic Ritual”.
@Kingelf - Wraiths were great!I used both units to attack infantry and/or take objectives. In both cases, 5-man Primaris units are ideal targets for them.
Our game was a bit unusual (maybe?) in that we both new each other’s lists and the mission several days before the game. I used that down-time to plan my turns, target priority etc. Once the Executioner and Invictor were removed, there wasn’t a whole lot could touch my much tougher units. In total I lost one Vyper, and some wounds off my planes and the Wave Serpent.
Also, it was fun experimenting with different powers for my Jetseer! I found I didn’t need Doom or Guide with the baked-in rerolls from “Expert Crafters”.
This is my second time playing 9th, and this opponent actually - we’ve just discovered we live in the same TINY Irish town, and are going to try a game a month. I lost the first one, *maybe* overcompensated with this list (it was designed to
Kill Marines!), bringing the Avatar and Maugan Ra in a Beil Tan List next time.
Cheers!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 07:07:00
Whats the easiest way to make this list of models more competitive? The problem is it moves fast, gets in close, kills a lot of stuff, then it gets hammered and turn 2... there's hardly anything left to really do much, and it can't handle combat at all. And with 9th, its got no staying power.
All painted Sam Haim
3 Farseers on Jetbikes
3 Warlocks on jetbikes
3 x 6 Units Windriders, about half with shuriken cannons
6 Vipers, most with brightlances
6 warwalkers, most with missile launchers
7 rangers
2 support weapon platforms
Might have a few other units if my friend looks real hard. Jetbikes could be converted to singing spears.
@Nujukuh Great to hear that the wraiths performed well. The good news for craftworlds is if we spec for it our weapons tend to smoke marines, we have good quality high strength and ap weapons that chew through power armour.
@Sazzlefrats There's definitely some good stuff in there but I think you need to play a defensive game using the long range shooting of the walkers, vypers and support weapons whilst hiding the windriders until you have softened up your opponent from range. You could definitely do with some heavier armour though to give your opponent harder choices on targets.
Play a custom craftworld with ignore cover and count as in cover, get a bike autarch to help with accuracy and I don't think you're far away from a good force, but don't charge forward, play the long game and use the speed and fly movement of your units to try and bully one flank, for example, while your opponent has to move round terrain to get you back in their sights.
@snazzlefrats - with what you (or your friend?) have, I would agree with Kingelf and play a Custom Craftworld, but tweak a bit. MSU (I.e. single model units) of Vypers and Warwalkers with “Expert Crafters” are very efficient at shooting, and flexible on the battlefield too. Both have decent range and mobility, so you can definitely play the long game that Kingelf suggests too. If you can convert a unit of Windriders to Spears, do it! But don’t be tempted to charge ‘em early - keep them in reserve, then use “Ghost Walk” and “Swooping Dive” for a +3” charge.
If you’re looking or suggestions to add to your force, well, I’d have to say a squad of Wraithblades in a Wave Serpent! Good luck!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 07:07:55
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll pass them along and hopefully my friend accepts a few. I was playing a simple. deathguard army against him.
Mortarion
Lord of Contagion
Foul Blightspawn
3 x 4 nurglings
Demon Prince with Wings
3 x 10 poxwalkers
3 mephit blighthaulers
Plague Hulk (the ultimate distraction carnifex, shooting sux)
1 chaos spawn
I think that was all. I had 3 deathshroud terminators but forgot to take them out of the case. He moved right into my mephits and hulk on my right flank, and shot at the hulk. 8 wounds taken... that was it. My saves were pretty good. My turn, mortarion made a long charge, and so did the mephits. And they all shot other units. Also my nurglings go into a unit of windriders... turn 1 was a disaster for him. Turn 2, I gave him some advice, but it was half ignored. Turn 3, I played his turn, and we killed mortarion, but by then Mortarion had earned his points back, and the mephits were free to roam. Score was 50ish to 20... maybe. (so it was a run away game, probably would have ended 100 to 25).
1. Custom Craftworlds
2. Shining Spears
3. Don't rush in.
4. Maybe an elite unit with protection.
Thanks!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 15:51:40
What are your feelings about the HWF? Locally there is a tournament and the Eldar player said it was the star of the last match he had. I forget the other details (well I'd have to dig up a text).
Wild speculation time, I'm going to guess that our troops, aspect warriors (non plane ones) and bikes will be our core choices when the new codex drops. I wonder if, as well as the autarch aura, some of our psychic powers will be restricted in the same way, e.g. guide and fortune only work on core units.
Hopefully our aspects get a serious boost to make them more viable, a lot of them need serious love.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It would be interesting to see if they do anything with the big craftworlds. Wraith units being core for iyanden, bikes for saim Han etc. Not sure if it's a good idea, I don't like it when armies get too stereotyped, but we shall see.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/17 05:55:59
@Popisdead - solid! “Jinx” as much as it’s guns; forgot about the Mindshick pods, but probably wouldn’t have made a huge difference. Didn’t win the game by itself, but definitely a part of the puzzle.
@kingelf - makes sense! But I reckon our other units will still have access to auras, but from more specific sources - e.g. Wraith units *probably* won’t be core (unless Iyanden?! Could be an updated Craftworld Attribute?!), but Spritiseers/Wraithseers auras might get boosted from current iteration to compensate. Who knows!
What are your feelings about the HWF? Locally there is a tournament and the Eldar player said it was the star of the last match he had. I forget the other details (well I'd have to dig up a text).
It's comparatively weak in 9e compared to a Crimson Hunter Exarch. The exarch benefited hugely - it lost -1 to hit when moving, which frees up its exarch power. The obvious choice to my mind is Evade - a 5++. Throw it in an expert crafters/masters of concealment detachment and you have a plane with native rerolls, 2+ to hit, -1 to be hit, and a 2+/5++ save that can combo off doom and jinx. That's still a top-tier unit for 200pts.
The Hemlock autohits, so gained nothing from heavy rule change, and has no exarch power to profit from. It lost its only defensive power, namely stacking negs to hit, but got no invuln in return, which is a massive deal in the eradicator meta. Expert crafters is only half a power on it. Its access to powers is great, as is its nerf to leadership bubble, but it's cost/survivability ratio makes it a paper aeroplane.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/17 07:38:46
What are your feelings about the HWF? Locally there is a tournament and the Eldar player said it was the star of the last match he had. I forget the other details (well I'd have to dig up a text).
It's comparatively weak in 9e compared to a Crimson Hunter Exarch. The exarch benefited hugely - it lost -1 to hit when moving, which frees up its exarch power. The obvious choice to my mind is Evade - a 5++. Throw it in an expert crafters/masters of concealment detachment and you have a plane with native rerolls, 2+ to hit, -1 to be hit, and a 2+/5++ save that can combo off doom and jinx. That's still a top-tier unit for 200pts.
The Hemlock autohits, so gained nothing from heavy rule change, and has no exarch power to profit from. It lost its only defensive power, namely stacking negs to hit, but got no invuln in return, which is a massive deal in the eradicator meta. Expert crafters is only half a power on it. Its access to powers is great, as is its nerf to leadership bubble, but it's cost/survivability ratio makes it a paper aeroplane.
Nailed it. Great Breakdown.
Im not sure though that i'd take a CHE over a falcon/wave serpent due to transport capacity for DA.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/17 21:54:23
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Since we seem to be very HQ heavy/dependant I'd love to see GW make a rule that says that if you take a max unit of aspect warriors you can take the appropriate Phoenix Lord without using an HQ slot. You'd still have to pay points for the Lord but you wouldn't be using a slot that could otherwise go to a Farseer/Warlock/Spiritseer/Etc..
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
I have a game this weekend and seeing as how my mechdar has struggled with primaries I thought I'd try to bring in some more bodies (infantry) to focus on scoring the secondaries more easily than before. Ideally, the secondaries I'm after are: Linebreaker, Deploy Scramblers and Engage on all Fronts. The list focuses more on the objective game than the killing game which I feel Eldar are quite capable of doing right now and if there are more suitable secondaries I'm not stuck for swapping some of them out.
I'm trying to decide between Hunters and Masterful Shots currently, as Hunters only really impacts some units in combat some of the time (makes Spears and scorpions killier, and war walkers entertaining) while MS works pretty much all the time.
Early game plays can vary too, with most tanks having the potential to be a tough nut to crack on turn one and have the speed to cap objectives and still leave the threat of an ObSec unit after if they die. War walkers can be deployed turn one or avail of their own deepstrike for more disruption or back field harassment.
The likes of Hawks, Spiders and Scorpions can work on scramblers while having the potential to screen and deepstrike for free. The Spears are good for disruption and can achieve a good charge using quicken and/or be durable with the 3++ or protected with a 2++.
Thoughts? If I had some Vypers I'd definitely consider a few of them as they're so cheap for such a good fire base. Another option is to drop the spirit stones on the falcons to make room for warlocks on jetbikes for extra movement but aren't as easy to hide like their foot slogging counterparts.
I see where you're coming from, but as Heavy Intercessors aren't out yet, this won't affect my game this week . Custodes are a thing however, but against armies with a low model count, it's easy to play the objective game and win that way. Starcannons are generally the best TAC weapon for the cost right now and we realistically don't have anything more reliable.
In terms of foot HQs, I've always found them to be fine, they have decent transport options and their threat range is fine from disembarkation as they are mostly for buffing the units I have. Like I said, I could drop the spirit stones and scorpions claw to upgrade two characters to bikes.
I picked the Spiders and Hawks not for their damage output, but for their ability to move around the board and redeploy. 80 and 90 point units are perfect for that, especially if they're maxing out secondaries like scramblers and linebreaker fairly early on and the screening they can provide is pretty decent too.
I was also considering a unit of fire dragons to slot in somewhere, they're another 3+ save unit to the army and can be a threat that has to be dealt with. Their cost however is pricey and they have the potential to do nothing.
Looks like a good list to me! I personally would recommend putting your warlock on bikes if you can - the extra mobility and toughness is very handy, and you can always hide them behind your grav-tanks.
I’d also recommend swapping powers so that the “Quicken” warlock doesn’t also have “Ghostwalk”, because he/she can’t cast both in the same turn.
Also, given how many Starcannons and Pulse Lasers you already have in the list, maybe consider swapping the CHE (and one Warlock) for a Hemlock? Just a thought
Overall I like it a lot. The only question I'd have is whether it'd be worth dropping one of the serpents for more killing potential? You've got quite a lot of tough units already, maybe a second squad of spears or fire dragons? Possibly swap out the scorpions for avengers for more chaff clearing?
But I think the list is good so I'm just making suggestions rather than criticising it.
Thank you both for your input, I think I'll tweak the list to allow for Jetlocks which means simply dropping the scorp claw and spirit stones to include them.
In relation to the fire dragons kingheff, I made a double patrol list to include them, at the expense of a war walker and a squad of avengers. This also allowed me to add some AMLs on to the remaining walkers, who are their own entries in the heavy slot. The fire dragons are an increased threat and sitting in a falcon or wave serpent makes their transport a "must kill" for the opponent. What do you reckon?
If I were to drop a wave serpent, I think the double patrol helps a little better to squeeze a hard hitting heavy support (combining the walkers), elite or fast attack unit with the 160 point hole the serpent makes.
NuhJuhKuh, what would your argument be for the Hemlock over the CHE? Would the psychic power be of value over the CHE?
Another nice list! What are you expecting to play against btw? Or don’t you know yet? Either way, you’ve a lot of mobility and firepower here, and enough flexibility you should be able to adapt to whatever is across the table.
I suggested the Hemlock because you’d get more options, basically. In a vacuum, I dare say a CHE is better point-for-point, but I would argue you can have too much redundancy! You already have all it’s guns on other platforms in both lists, but you don’t have something that can autohit something 2-6 times at S12, or make moral checks a tougher proposition for your opponent.
But otoh... I’ve played all of two games of 9th ed. And I’m 1-0... and the game I won I brought one of each!
The person I'm up against gave me a list of Iron Hands, Word Bears, Knights and Tzeentch Daemons, so there's a range of stuff there. I do like to make lists fairly tailored to the meta, hence the starcannons for the anti-heavy infantry.
The Hemlock sounds like a good idea when you put it that way, I didn't magnetise the flyer as that's a pretty big job that I have no experience with! Another option could be to run some Wraithblades (another unit I have in the pile of shame) as a straight swap for the CHE for another threat unit that gives me an additional combat threat and get them up the board in a wave serpent. Detracts a little from the Aspect Host "theme" but could be better.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 18:13:42
I definitely approve of Wraithblades! Axes and shields for my money - tough, a good target for “Protect”, and can still hit prett hard.
If you want to keep the Aspext Warrior theme, don’t discount Howling Banshees. I know they’re expensive for what they do... but a small unit in a Wave Serpent can charge something really far away and scalpel them out. In my first game of 9th (that I eventually lost), my min unit took out a unit of Eliminators that were parked on an Objective top of turn one.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Thank you both for your input, I think I'll tweak the list to allow for Jetlocks which means simply dropping the scorp claw and spirit stones to include them.
In relation to the fire dragons kingheff, I made a double patrol list to include them, at the expense of a war walker and a squad of avengers. This also allowed me to add some AMLs on to the remaining walkers, who are their own entries in the heavy slot. The fire dragons are an increased threat and sitting in a falcon or wave serpent makes their transport a "must kill" for the opponent. What do you reckon?
If I were to drop a wave serpent, I think the double patrol helps a little better to squeeze a hard hitting heavy support (combining the walkers), elite or fast attack unit with the 160 point hole the serpent makes.
NuhJuhKuh, what would your argument be for the Hemlock over the CHE? Would the psychic power be of value over the CHE?
I think you need to find a way to include the star lance and the scorpions claw. They're awesome and they really leverage the hunters of the ancient relics. get those extra attacks with high strength weaponry.
Maybe drop a jetbike on farseer and give him the wing relic?
Other than that. I think it's great. I haven't been brave enough to try my CHE or Fire dragons... been leaning on Hornets, Reapers and Falcons
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/24 20:38:53
"What we do in life, echoes in eternity" - Maximus Meridius
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@NuhJuhKuh, I'll give the axe and shield combo a try at some point! Just have to get magnetising I do think Banshees could be a shout when they get their power sword upgraded, as I did find their disruption to be quite useful in 8th edition, albeit countering overwatch a lot harder then.
@Gangrel767, I have to agree with you, getting those weapons fitted in was something I was intending to keep in my list as they do really benefit from Hunters. With the scorpions hitting first in combat always I feel that the claw could be a decent deterrent, and at worst, a target where other things in my army won't get shot. How have you found Dark Reapers? They seem quite squishy but they'd be an option if I decided to drop the CHE.
@Tyranid Horde - yeah, can’t wait for S4 power swords either! Hoping for some other buffs for the Aspect Warriors when our own Codex finally drops. Probably too much to hope for 12” D-Scythes though...
Anyway, thought id share the next list I’ll be playing. I’ve already shared it with my opponent, so not looking for any changes - unless there are any illegalities of course!
Tyranid Horde wrote: @NuhJuhKuh, I'll give the axe and shield combo a try at some point! Just have to get magnetising I do think Banshees could be a shout when they get their power sword upgraded, as I did find their disruption to be quite useful in 8th edition, albeit countering overwatch a lot harder then.
@Gangrel767, I have to agree with you, getting those weapons fitted in was something I was intending to keep in my list as they do really benefit from Hunters. With the scorpions hitting first in combat always I feel that the claw could be a decent deterrent, and at worst, a target where other things in my army won't get shot. How have you found Dark Reapers? They seem quite squishy but they'd be an option if I decided to drop the CHE.
To me they're old reliable. I usually try to fit in 2 * 3 Dark Reapers (1 being an exarch with tempest launcher) - I keep them near an autarch and typically run expert crafters. I have been having some fun with the shoot characters ability on the tempest launcher. They do well, and typically get targeted pretty low. Lots of AML or Starcannon shots in MSU fashion all over the table.
"What we do in life, echoes in eternity" - Maximus Meridius
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~500pts Asuryani painted new colour scheme
Eldar- 4436 pts
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
. Custodes are a thing however, but against armies with a low model count, it's easy to play the objective game and win that way. Starcannons are generally the best 
I do think Banshees could be a shout when they get their power sword upgraded, as I did find their disruption to be quite useful in 8th edition, albeit countering overwatch a lot harder then.