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 wuestenfux wrote:

Spoiler:

 kingheff wrote:
I've added 3 wraithlords with two shuriken cannons and a couple of wraithseers with wraithcannon to my list and it's worked out great so far. Swapping out static firepower like nightspinners for tanky wraiths charging out in midfield and either intercepting incoming threats or hitting their backfield units has proved invaluable. I found the purely shooting lists had big problems with fast melee/deepstriking units. The big wraiths are dirt cheap for T8 wounds and give the army real backbone. Still using expert crafters and masterful shots with vibro cannons and vypers with the missile launchers for long range firepower but shuriken like ignoring cover a lot too and expert crafters is great for melee with four attacks.

Three Wraithlords and one Wraithseer is a poor kind of detachment.
These guys are meh, too slow and too less damage output.
They don't contribute to the kind of flow an Eldar army needs to function.

Funnily enough one of the games they did really well in was against another craftworlds list with three nightspinners, three CHE, a couple of falcons and a max squad of spears with storm guardians and characters on bikes if I remember correctly. He had been doing very well in a TTS league with his list so I figured I would be in for a tough time.
He had first turn and pushed forward with his spears, Che's and falcons but failed quicken on his spears which left them in range of a counter charge from my wraiths which meant he had to divert quite a bit of firepower into the wraiths that he couldn't doom because we were playing cagey because of trying to avoid denies. He killed some stuff but not enough of the wraiths who stepped out and chopped up his spears before pushing on to threaten the midfield tanks before pushing on to take down his storm guardians with shuriken and pushing his spinners into the open where I could take them out. It was a very good and close game and the T8 wounds were what won me the game.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
I've added 3 wraithlords with two shuriken cannons and a couple of wraithseers with wraithcannon to my list and it's worked out great so far. Swapping out static firepower like nightspinners for tanky wraiths charging out in midfield and either intercepting incoming threats or hitting their backfield units has proved invaluable. I found the purely shooting lists had big problems with fast melee/deepstriking units. The big wraiths are dirt cheap for T8 wounds and give the army real backbone. Still using expert crafters and masterful shots with vibro cannons and vypers with the missile launchers for long range firepower but shuriken like ignoring cover a lot too and expert crafters is great for melee with four attacks.

Three Wraithlords and one Wraithseer is a poor kind of detachment.
These guys are meh, too slow and too less damage output.
They don't contribute to the kind of flow an Eldar army needs to function.

I dont see how ? 2 star canon shots plys a Bl or 4 star cannon shots with master crafters is really good value. Its what the war walkers does but a lot tougher.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kingheff wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

Spoiler:

 kingheff wrote:
I've added 3 wraithlords with two shuriken cannons and a couple of wraithseers with wraithcannon to my list and it's worked out great so far. Swapping out static firepower like nightspinners for tanky wraiths charging out in midfield and either intercepting incoming threats or hitting their backfield units has proved invaluable. I found the purely shooting lists had big problems with fast melee/deepstriking units. The big wraiths are dirt cheap for T8 wounds and give the army real backbone. Still using expert crafters and masterful shots with vibro cannons and vypers with the missile launchers for long range firepower but shuriken like ignoring cover a lot too and expert crafters is great for melee with four attacks.

Three Wraithlords and one Wraithseer is a poor kind of detachment.
These guys are meh, too slow and too less damage output.
They don't contribute to the kind of flow an Eldar army needs to function.

Funnily enough one of the games they did really well in was against another craftworlds list with three nightspinners, three CHE, a couple of falcons and a max squad of spears with storm guardians and characters on bikes if I remember correctly. He had been doing very well in a TTS league with his list so I figured I would be in for a tough time.
He had first turn and pushed forward with his spears, Che's and falcons but failed quicken on his spears which left them in range of a counter charge from my wraiths which meant he had to divert quite a bit of firepower into the wraiths that he couldn't doom because we were playing cagey because of trying to avoid denies. He killed some stuff but not enough of the wraiths who stepped out and chopped up his spears before pushing on to threaten the midfield tanks before pushing on to take down his storm guardians with shuriken and pushing his spinners into the open where I could take them out. It was a very good and close game and the T8 wounds were what won me the game.

haha first time I tried my wraithseer ynnari and wraithlords I was up against spears spam and 3 prisms and spinenrs.
An entire prism trio wasnt able to bring down a ynnari wraith seer with lost shroud.. Just think about that.

I was really really lucky in my rolls tho..

According to mathhammer three linked fireprisms do a bit over four wounds to a lost shroud wraithseer, they're not quite brohammer leviathan tough but they're not far off!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do wonder if the wraithseer may lose the character keyword in any updates, he does throw some relics/warlord trait stuff out of whack

Based on what's been revealed so far, maximizing CP in 9E means trying to squeeze your entire army into a single battalion detachment. Seems pretty OK for eldar since we have solid units in every category.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/04/taking-command-of-your-pointsgw-homepage-post-1/

I'm thinking at the moment I'll still be building multiple detachments since I value the units I want more than CP. It all depends on the cost overall I guess.

 slave.entity wrote:
Based on what's been revealed so far, maximizing CP in 9E means trying to squeeze your entire army into a single battalion detachment. Seems pretty OK for eldar since we have solid units in every category.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/04/taking-command-of-your-pointsgw-homepage-post-1/

We don't. Most slots want a different type of trait to be the most efficient. A banshee blob/wraithblade blob cares nothing for expert crafters a war walker or vibro cannon wants.

But it looks like a wraith battalion will be a thing for me so im not unhappy as such. Too early to tell but I've certainly been using multi trait and having to squeeze everything into one detachment might hurt.

If you get bonus CP to have a Patrol with Warlord in it, it may offset the cost of another detachment. Time will tell, but it's not a deal breaker for me.

Unfortunately, I think this just pushes CWE even harder towards EC/MS cheese builds - because while you can easily make a whole army that benefits from that combo, pretty much any other choice results in either a lot of units not getting anything from their craftworld traits, or paying CP through the nose for the privilege of being worse than just yielding to the cheese.

It does seem possible that discouraging soup will reduce overall build diversity, since players will be drawing from smaller pools of units when writing their lists.

I think we might be seeing a bunch of patrols now where before there was 0 reason to take one.

Cant wait for the full rules.

It's a given that it'll reduce build diversity. Almost none of the 8th edition tournament lists work in 9th (unless the CP costs for other detachments are much lower than for bats). Ironically, broviathan - i.e. the worst list in 8th edition and the biggest embarrassment for GW - is the only major tournament-winning list that immediately comes to mind that does work. Well...and Eldar Mech Spam, and maybe Imperial Fists artillery spam.

Seeing a pattern here? The type of lists that are most boosted by 9th's changes are brute force lists that are built around just taking the most points-efficient units and spamming them, and the lists that are hosed most are intricate combo lists.

It seems like the result is likely to be a significant dumbing down of the game, which is a bummer.

Whether or not it will reduce build diversity depends on how bad the penalties are for souping, compared to the benefits. If there are good enough reasons to soup, people will pay the CP penalty to do it. We don't know enough about 9E to say for sure.

wouldnt worry about it too much as EC will get taken away when the 9e codex drops

 slave.entity wrote:
Whether or not it will reduce build diversity depends on how bad the penalties are for souping, compared to the benefits. If there are good enough reasons to soup, people will pay the CP penalty to do it. We don't know enough about 9E to say for sure.

They added penalties for souping - well, technically just for taking multiple detachments, not even for souping per se. Even if those don't outweigh the benefits, unless they had new benefits for souping too, the result will be less souping than before, and therefore less diversity.

Given that they are on record as specifically saying the whole point was to make souping less advantageous...I think it is a pretty safe bet that that is what 9th will do.

In other words, even if some souping is still viable...it'll only be the stronger soup combinations. The ones that were interesting but not super powerful are the ones that are going to get cut when you raise the penalty for souping across the board. Leaving less diversity overall.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's a given that it'll reduce build diversity. Almost none of the 8th edition tournament lists work in 9th (unless the CP costs for other detachments are much lower than for bats). Ironically, broviathan - i.e. the worst list in 8th edition and the biggest embarrassment for GW - is the only major tournament-winning list that immediately comes to mind that does work. Well...and Eldar Mech Spam, and maybe Imperial Fists artillery spam.

Seeing a pattern here? The type of lists that are most boosted by 9th's changes are brute force lists that are built around just taking the most points-efficient units and spamming them, and the lists that are hosed most are intricate combo lists.

It seems like the result is likely to be a significant dumbing down of the game, which is a bummer.

I've not seen the pattern you describe. There appears to be an item mission related in the form of an action that has been hinted it. To claim an objective to garner VP, may require an action which would be instead of shooting. This could very well be a factor in army building; mech Eldar may not be quite as shooting intensive if units can't fire in order to hold an objective.

One thing Reece from FLG stated is that armies will be smaller than in 8th edition, which was a conscious decision in order to help make games go faster. Reece indicated their tourneys will remain at 2000 points and has hopes they can reduce the 3 hour time limit. He even advised to not look at the game through the lens of 8th edition. The more and more that gets revealed, the more the game appears to be very different from 8th.

I am unsure how you conclude that it will hinder build diversity. We haven't even seen how this would impact armies such as Custodes who will not require soup just to generate CP. It seems way too early to make any such claims.


Right now, I've been looking at building a Brigade. Normally, it takes around 1300 points for what I want, so I think In can still build one and be reasonably within the 2000 point cap. The Brigade Detachment, assuming it does not change the structure will have an abundant amount of slots available as well as units who may be better suited to not shoot and not feel as if I am crippling my army. In this build, I am not sure if Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots will be best suited. Much will also depend on missions as I build for ITC. These missions have a lot of similarities from what we have seen so far, but it is not a copy and paste. And, I can also garner more CP, much more than what I have used through 8th.

Will the game be dumbed down? Depends on what you define as dumbed down. The game got massively streamlined and faster when it changed from 2nd to 3rd edition and from 7th to early 8th edition (pre codex). Currently, many rules were dropped/altered to make for a more streamlined game. Over the years mechanics such as fire arcs, terror/fear tests, guess ranges, template/blast markers, scatter dice have all disappeared. These are but a few off the top of my head. Is this dumbing down the game? Again, it depends on how you define it.

Per Thursday's preview a battalion consists of- 2-3 HQ, 3-6 Troops, 0-6 elites, 0-3 Fast/Heavy and, 0-2 Flyers. You can also take 1 transport for each unit of infantry taken. Cost 3CP gives 3 CP if you have your warlord in it.

3 heavy is the real bottleneck in a batallion, given our preponderance towards that class.

 grouchoben wrote:
3 heavy is the real bottleneck in a batallion, given our preponderance towards that class.

I'm wondering if spearhead/outrider detachments perhaps cost 1cp as opposed to 3 for a battalion, not sure if this has been clarified,

I have not seen any clarification at this time.

I still don't understand why IG gets to have 3 tanks count as 1 heavy slot but we (who have a strategy based on having 3 heavies) have to use all of our slots for 3 tanks.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I still don't understand why IG gets to have 3 tanks count as 1 heavy slot but we (who have a strategy based on having 3 heavies) have to use all of our slots for 3 tanks.

I’d like to see squadroning come back, But understand why guard gets it. Part of their whole theme is “we’ve got more bodies then you have bullets” which scales up to tanks as well. And there is their old rule of 3. Take 3 of any unit you need. One will be destroyed before doing anything. The second will miss. But the third will get the job done.

 slave.entity wrote:
Based on what's been revealed so far, maximizing CP in 9E means trying to squeeze your entire army into a single battalion detachment. Seems pretty OK for eldar since we have solid units in every category.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/04/taking-command-of-your-pointsgw-homepage-post-1/

What's the benefit from having just one detachment.
What's the idea behind?
I can only think of mono-builds which benefit from being ''mono''.
IH and GK come to my mind, but Aeldari kin?

Less souping for free. To get better rules need to pay for it. As it is in 8th soup was better than mono so mono needs reward. Thus more cp.

There's a good tactica report up on Tabletop Tactics' youtube featuring a wraith heavy ynnari list vs deathguard if anyone fancies some weekend viewing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXURoSmGCQo&t=2652s

Watched about half of it before giving up, not sure what the point of the Nurgle list was

Falcons seemed to do okay but thatll happen if you bring a Pulse Laser to a fistfight

I don't think Ynarri are great for wraith heavy lists, there is too much good stuff from craftworlds you miss out on.
Here's hoping Ynarri get a proper rework in 9th.

Ynnari are just bad, aside from a small number of gimmicks, none of which will work in 9th due to the new detachment system.

 kingheff wrote:
I don't think Ynarri are great for wraith heavy lists, there is too much good stuff from craftworlds you miss out on.
Here's hoping Ynarri get a proper rework in 9th.

Id rather they just didnt bother if the flip from ynnari 1 to ynnari 2 shows the effort they want to put into the 'faction', its really just 3 hqs that can be slotted into any of the existing 3 and post PA giving up standard or custom traits etc seems unwise

I watched the battle report. For the Ynarri army, a few things stuck out:

- Falcons appeared very mediocre without custom Craftworld traits.

- The Wraithseer powers are not very good. I'm happy and hoping the FW stuff really will be in line rules wise with 9th edition.

- I did not see anything in the game that would warrant me using Wraithblades in an Ynarri detachment over a Craftworld detachment. It actually appeared to be a detriment.

With 9th edition in mind, I will likely just continue to play Ynarri characters within a Craftworld detachment.

 Sarigar wrote:
I watched the battle report. For the Ynarri army, a few things stuck out:

- Falcons appeared very mediocre without custom Craftworld traits.

- The Wraithseer powers are not very good. I'm happy and hoping the FW stuff really will be in line rules wise with 9th edition.

- I did not see anything in the game that would warrant me using Wraithblades in an Ynarri detachment over a Craftworld detachment. It actually appeared to be a detriment.

With 9th edition in mind, I will likely just continue to play Ynarri characters within a Craftworld detachment.

Seconded, the lack of exarch powers and crafters vacuum makes them look a bit redundant. I get the feeling both the psychic awakening the faction updates were done without a top down consideration of one another which is a bit of a fail. Perhaps in trying to avoid the OP nature of mid 8th Ynarri they felt they could do without. Maybe a tad shortsighted...

Considering a sub to TT though as I like the format and they're pretty entertaining. Haven't played enough to tell if the quality of play is high.