I'd imagine that the ranged version will be the "reliable" unit, spreading out damage across multiple turns (hopefully with a +1 to hit and wound rather than vanilla rokkits).
The melee one is likely to much more capable of pulping a vehicle in one go, with the downside that they'll be melee only and are likely to get splatted the second they've killed something.
So it will probably be ranged for lighter vehicles, melee for heaviest.
But who knows, I've been wrong before on how a unit pans out.
Well, if it's five rokkits on 6 sv4+ bodies instead of 3 rokkits on 5 sv5+ bodies, I'd already take them at their current price tag without any other changes. Maybe slap a mek in there for dread mob shenanigans, but I don't really need another unit to eat up my CP.
Kill teams says they have 'eavy armour, which usually translates to 4+, so I guess my hopes for 3+ are dashed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just to understand the list right - and this is a question, I don't know!
Big Mek with Press it fasta leads the Lootas hoping for double button effect on the mass of their shooting?
Big Mek with SAG with Giftinder Googlez leadz the Mek Gunz giving Ignore cover to its SMG with the AP-3?
Simple Mek with the Supa Glowy Fig is a lone operative sitting behind the Stompa, giving her +1 to hit, fixing it every turn a flashing the units in 18”.
You are probably right, but solely for the reason that a big mek makes zero sense with mek guns due to KMB range. Maybe some wall-walking shenanigans? Press it fasta is a pretty gakky enhancement in general, but I guess if you get lucky multiple times per game, it seriously increases your win chances.
I usually have a SAG mek with goggles leading lootas, because at just 1 AP cover often makes the difference between shredding a unit and being unable to touch it.
A bit excessive on the grot side, but in general I can see a stompa working better than a naut - the naut will die when shot at with anti-tank, a stompa has a real chance of surviving multiple turns even if you go nuts with hazardous.
Let's see if I manage to finish (start ) my stompa before this edition is over.
I like that they fixed all the warboss in trukk abilities but I’m still kinda annoyed they didn’t touch the main reason orks got crushed, the prior dataslate…
Bullyboys is decent again
Warhorde is good
BUT
I realize points drops wasn’t going to fix buggies but kult of speed is still awful. I expected some attempt at any buggy point drop. They just didn’t even attempt to look at this detachment.
AND
Greentide is still really bad.. they really should have rolled back the reroll armor save rolls of 1 ability and fix the Strats they butchered. Currently I rather just take bullyboys with a warboss in the boys unit for a better greentide list.
AND
Dreadmob really needs to have killakans ability to be better. I mean sure lowering meks points and deff dread/gorkanaut is nice but it’s still just a loota/shokk atk gun spam list.
And
Da big hunt
Just stay with warhorde snaggaboys and killrigs are still better there.. this detachment needed a strat to target another unit with the big hunt detachment ability and it wouldn’t have hurt to drop points on squigriders.
That’s really what’s holding this detachment back. Overall minimum effort.. but probably just enough to not make orks the worst codex mainly because warhorde is going to be decent with cheaper boys/snaggas/killrigs.
I’m more excited to see the new tankbusta rules although the push fit mixed unit weapon design still makes the unit hard to utilize.
Snaggaboys had a hefty drop which makes them in killrigs in a warhorde detachment decent.
Bullyboys are good where they are.. it’s not going to win competitions but my issue with bullyboys was it was unfun for most causal play. Most players just can’t deal with skew lists like this. The warboss in trukk again is the best fix for this detachment. It makes nobs great again. Overall it’s where it should be imho.
If I could get just 2 changes in the next dataslate to fix the ork codex it would be to move Waagh to command phase instead of beginning of battle round.. making Waagh reactive instead of predictable and to change killakans ability to +1 range atk to range wpns but adds hazardous to range atks.
I don’t think 15pts off a naut is going to swing dreadmob from loota/shokk gun spam to walker spam.. and to be fair you need to spam walkers to have a chance at survivability of them. You can’t just put down a single naut and 2x deffdreads as the naut will get blown off the table turn 1. I want to see 9x killakans on the table 2-3 deff dreads, a naut, and several trukk boys supported by a squad or 2 of lootas w shokk guns. We need killakans to be good for a proper deeadmob. The detachment ability itself is good.
I think the biggest missed opportunity for point drop was squigriders.. they were just 10ppm away from being good enough to carry da big hunt or 5ppm away from being costed correctly if they had a strat to target another unit with the detachment ability.
Except Speedfreaks - this detachement is broken in his core. No matter how cheap you make the buggies, they will still be a crap.
1. Waaagh is just for melee. Buggies are basicly shooting. And warbikers mostly too. In melee they are just few boyz. No Speedwaaagh for shooting = no change on this detachement.
That is the reason btw why just one Kult of speed build scores sometimes = Kopta spam, because only Koptas do something in melee.
2. Totaly stupid strategems. Sorry but out of 6 strategems - one is useless, another two exist just because of Trukk + MANz kombo, another 2 could be great if buggies could a unit of 3, not just simple models and the last one I don ´ t even remeber…
3. Datasheets of the speedfreak units are so bad, it ´ s waste of time to go into details.
4. Warbikers needs to be a Battleline
5. There is not enough of existing models / units to fill 2000p because
- airplanes are useless in this ed
- there are no Nob bikers
- there just one character you can use because Warboss on Warbike is gone
- max 3 buggie. No units
On the end you have to build it about the transports with the infantry. Wait… isn t it a type of the list War Horde exist for?
I seem to have gained 55 points. Really not sure where to spend them at the moment, might even just take Glory Hog and Surly on my Squigosaurs and call it a day to save me having to build or paint anything else Maybe drop Proper Killy and take another Weirdboy?
Spoiler:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ FACTION KEYWORD: Xenos - Orks
+ DETACHMENT: Da Big Hunt
+ TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 1945pts
+
+ WARLORD: Char4: Beastboss on Squigosaur
+ ENHANCEMENT: Proper Killy (on Char1: Beastboss)
+ NUMBER OF UNITS: 16
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Overall, things look pretty good for us after the updates. Kult of Speed is still dead in the water though, but the whole detachment needs an entire rework.
My main upset is that they didn't make the Stompa 650pts so I can run 3 with a single Mek and call it an army
gungo wrote: Snaggaboys had a hefty drop which makes them in killrigs in a warhorde detachment decent.
I don’t think 15pts off a naut is going to swing dreadmob from loota/shokk gun spam to walker spam.. and to be fair you need to spam walkers to have a chance at survivability of them. You can’t just put down a single naut and 2x deffdreads as the naut will get blown off the table turn 1. I want to see 9x killakans on the table 2-3 deff dreads, a naut, and several trukk boys supported by a squad or 2 of lootas w shokk guns. We need killakans to be good for a proper dreadmob. The detachment ability itself is good.
Not sure i agree, snagga boys were already decent units, even better now.
As for the naut, hypothetically, yeah, but i have also seen players struggling to open a single truck. It is already costing a little more then 30pts vs Ghaz, i think they have play as duos, fill them with grots and you have some nice distraction carnifexes that have some teeth and OC. Or give them a mek etc..I think their a solid option and oppressive in the right hands. But it is totally a kill rig day.
But that is my point of view.
Still disappointed no rule changes for buggies, speed freaks and shooting in general.
Buggies are just an all around bad profile. They need a complete rework. The problem is just that the kits are too expensive and large to spam for the cost they need to be for the role they're designed to serve.
Or at least they're overly cautious with previously OP units. KoS might get a big update with the next balance patch, or they might continue to be the unwanted detachment. We don't know what's going to happen, we can only speculate
I'm not sure why we are even discussing this. Unless you are living under a rock (and not the shooty smash-into-planets kind of rock), it was crystal clear that at this time of the year GW would update points only. And points can't fix buggies.
We get a new dataslate next time, and that's when GW might make a passt at the kult of speed, for example by bringing some sort of speed Waaagh! back. Though I wouldn't hold my breath for it. They will definitely focus on observing what impact the changes to dreadmob, green tide, bully boyz and beasty boyz will have on external balance before concerning themselves with internal balance again.
That said, the buffs to dread mob are great. The point drops allow me nearly 200 points of additional models, which would allow me to field anything from a sag/loota mob a trukk loaded with snaggas or nobz or even a gorkanaut on top of what I'm currently running if I drop a mek gun or a unit of gretchin. Many close victories and losses would have easily been won if I had a unit or two more on the board.
I agree that kanz pretty much suck right now, but not because of their damage output. If they ever get to shoot and charge, they absolutely earn their share. Getting there is the problem though, because the are slow as feth. Almost every army has guns that are highly effective at killing kanz and there is little reason to not just blow them off the table whenever possible. They would need the durability of scout sentinels or broadsides to not be the total pushovers they are now.
With koptas going down to 90, I'll probably play koptas instead now. It's not like I'm lacking targets to throw CP at.
I don't think they are necessary to make dread mob work though. I pretty much leave them at home unless I want to run them for non-competitive reasons already. Dread mob has plenty of units that can be lead by meks, both nauts have good datasheets and the gork might just be cheap enough to actually work well now.
Agaisnt most armies I also don't really struggle against hard targets. Pretty much every unit is armed with KMBs and rokkits, stratagem buffed lootas are a terror to vehicles and monsters and shoota boyz double-dip da button for a ton of chip damage.
The only thing I really do struggle with is T11+ modes with a 2+ saves. I specifically switched by MANz to dual killsaws just to tackle this weakness. Ooutside of dreads melee and KMK there is nothing that works well against a LRBT and armies with durable tanks usually have no issues with evaporating deff dreads of mek guns. Even if your dread connects with a tank, there is a decent chance of not killing it. I'm seriously considering running some beast snaggas boyz now, just to have something which can threaten those hard targets.
If only one of the buggies had a S12 gun or could benefit from da button, I'd play it instantly...
I came to some of your conclusions a while back at the start.. my local meta is almost always high save.
Although when it's just low T, nobz work, the stuff that was high T, i was seeing a lot of bouncing off, specially the nobz.
I had to resort to snaggas for the dev/anti combo to make them question their choices.
Fast forward i came to some of your conclusions.
I use 5 meganobz with saw with warboss, inside a truck. Cheap and durable, or just walk 6 with Ghaz. His new profile and buffs are amazing if you have 10 nobz close.
Gorkanaut melee swing also works really well and the rockets can do some work.
But currently my cheapest combo to deal with vehicles is the beastboss with snaggas one. 175pts is a steal for the bodies and potential.
That's the term I was looking for. I'm completely in agreement that it's unlikely to happen, but who knows what GW might do.
Back on a tactics discussion, I'm in agreement that the Snagga part of the range is probably our generic solution to high toughness/low save units these days. I've gone all in on the anti/devastating combo, and otherwise rely on sheer volume of basic attacks like the old days. Massed klaws and saws are pretty good, but the Snagga stuff seems to win out due to slightly lower costs overall. Klaws and Saws are definitely the better all-comer killers though.
I came to some of your conclusions a while back at the start.. my local meta is almost always high save.
Although when it's just low T, nobz work, the stuff that was high T, i was seeing a lot of bouncing off, specially the nobz.
I had to resort to snaggas for the dev/anti combo to make them question their choices.
Just high saves aren't really a problem in dread mob though. Terminators and custodes just die in a hail of rokkit and KMB fire, combined with grenades or tankshock. I don't even bother to pick a buff for them.
Same goes for high toughness - with bigger shell for bigger gitz, lootas even wound monoliths on 4+. Most times they one-shot these models just die to just one unit's shooting alone.
When you have both at the same time, worst case combined with a reduction in AP or stealth, that's when stuff gets messy. Lootas don't work anymore because the chance of them just saving all shots from a buffed unit is too high, shoota boyz bounce right off in combat, SAG, rokkits and KMB no longer have the weight to push through those last few points of damage, and neither lethal hits nor sustained hits can change that. So essentially, your entire army has to pile on such a unit in order to kill it. If it's well positioned or your opponent rolled hot when shooting your high damage units or when rolling saves, you'll run out of units fast.
One of my regular opponents pretty much run nothing but LRBT, scout sentinels and heavy weapon teams and he is very difficult to beat for me, despite him not being a good player. I usually win by 5-10 points, with no models left on the table.
Fast forward i came to some of your conclusions.
I use 5 meganobz with saw with warboss, inside a truck. Cheap and durable, or just walk 6 with Ghaz. His new profile and buffs are amazing if you have 10 nobz close.
Actually, I'm using the MA big mek with smokestack here. First, because high T/high save models are either battle tanks with high damage, high ap main cannons and meltas, monsters with high damage, high AP attacks or walkers with both. MANz are just too slow to actually hunt those and get blasted to smithereens by them. The role my MANz have in my army is to take an objective in no-mans land and then fight off anyone trying to challenge it. If my opponent focuses them at full strength while the Waaagh! is up, the other, much higher damage parts of my army, remain undamaged and I get to shoot them with more stuff. More than once, this has won me the game right then and there. Essentially looted 8th edition Mortarion If they half-ass them, the mek keeps bringing MANz back, and the saws project a no-go area for high durability targets around them. Having MANz sit on an objective and potentially scoring a secondary for two or three turns wins games.
Gorkanaut melee swing also works really well and the rockets can do some work.
I've only played Morkanauts so far, but usually they die bevor they can punch high value units. It has fared much better for me hiding in the back for the first one or two rounds and taking shots from 24" away, similar to how people run their stompas.
But currently my cheapest combo to deal with vehicles is the beastboss with snaggas one. 175pts is a steal for the bodies and potential.
Agree. That's why - despite having no synergy with dread mob whatsoever - I'd rather run them in a trukk or a kill rig than of units of kanz.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One last thing that also needs to be said out loud - the ork codex clearly feels incomplete when your are not playing crusade.
The battle honors, relics, kustom jobs and loot items are exactly what is missing from many sub-par units. One of my shoota boy mobs has rolled the enhancement for +1 BS and it has become a super competitive unit with just that, gunning down infantry left and right while their rokkits punch reliably damage enemy vehicles.
Tellyporta blasta with 18" range, buggies with weapon improvements on their main gun, deff dread with extra speed, SAG with melta 3, speed freeks with free smoke screens once per battle, +1BS any vehicle of your choice...
It feels like this is how the codex should play, and it feels off when playing matched play.
I said it couple of times, time to repeat - there is a simple economy circle behind what is hot and what not.
1. You make a new models. Big promo. gakky rules. People buy because of the rule of cool. Remeber when the buggies came? Takes 1-2 years.
2. You make cool rules. Sometimes not so great or OP, than stabilized. Remeber “new” codex? Than add some other new stuff to support. Remember Koptas and Speedmob? 1-2 years.
3. You make the models useless - about 4 years…
This runs simultaneously. In the moment one models step in phase 2, some other ones come in step 1. Etc.
Buggies came in to step 3. Now the Beastsnaggas comming from step 1 to step 2.
Now so other hot new models should come as a step 1. New Big Mek is already there, now the tankbustas. It seems this wave is about refreshing the old models. It obviously should take another 2 years before there will be another window for the buggies.
However, some another line of models could come instead and the return of the buggies will be further postponed.
“New old” + “snaggas” = our models for the rest of the 10th.
The whole codex is written so, it is hard to imagine some fixes that can fixe the Kult of Speed and the buggies.
"One last thing that also needs to be said out loud - the ork codex clearly feels incomplete when your are not playing crusade.
The battle honors, relics, kustom jobs and loot items are exactly what is missing from many sub-par units. One of my shoota boy mobs has rolled the enhancement for +1 BS and it has become a super competitive unit with just that, gunning down infantry left and right while their rokkits punch reliably damage enemy vehicles.
Tellyporta blasta with 18" range, buggies with weapon improvements on their main gun, deff dread with extra speed, SAG with melta 3, speed freeks with free smoke screens once per battle, +1BS any vehicle of your choice...
It feels like this is how the codex should play, and it feels off when playing matched play.
"
totally agree!
I actually switched to my Noise marines if we aren't playing a Crusade
GREAT fun with Da Boyz in Crusade!!!
The similar logic could be applied to Dreadmob. Just without the new models which is actually very clever.
They made a Detachement that says “kans and dreads are cool” to sell old models that was useless for decades. In spring or next summer I expect some kind of point / rule fix makeing them great. Maybe even stompa get some point drop
I think speculating on GW marketing conspiracies is a waste of time. There is a mountain of evidence that tells us otherwise and there is literally this one time some (now fired) manager interfered with balancing to sell a brand new model over a decade ago, in a company with completely different culture than today's GW.
Even if there were such plans, GW has proven repeatedly that they are unable to tweak their rules accordingly.
The reason why people perceive this as "GW is hyping up X and then dropping it" is because everyone goes all in on the bestest flavor of the month units/armies for easy wins without thinking twice. They then turn into surprise pikachu when their super "fun and flavorful" list gets hit by the nerf everyone had seen coming from a mile away. They blame GW, vow to never buy from them again, and then drop another 300 bucks/10 pounds of resin on the next flavor of the month bestest thing.
I have this one player in my crusade, who literally throws a fit after every single balance update. Every single time, he then drops his entire crusade force because it's now ruined and starts a new one. None of the other 11 players playing a total of 9 factions have his issues. On top of that he is now complaining about not being able to compete with legendary characters picking up insane relics from their codices, because his guy have no experience yet.
Literally all it takes is to stop trying to pay to win. This is no longer 7th or 8th edition where not playing a cookie-cutter build automatically meant no chance at winning. Just look through the last lists you posted - people can clearly top tournaments without blindly following the flavor of the month. I have also no issues winning games despite running dread mob almost exclusively, I'm just not stomping people flat into the ground.
GW is a mid-sided company selling a luxury goods they can pretty much price at whatever people are willing to pay them. As I work in a very similar company, almost none of the decisions they have taken in the last years have come as a surprise to me, and none of them are related to them trying to scam you out of your money. It's just basic soulless business stuff. They have grown massively over the last years, and now they are optimizing the processes, getting rid of everything that costs too much money, including beloved models from the past. Just like every other industry selling luxury goods.
FW40k is being disbanded because producing those models is time consuming (3 days for 3 garg squigs), wages have gone up, competition is numerous with similar or better quality and the one person who was taking care of it with all his heart has left us. People have been telling everyone to not buy FW models unless you want those models for display purposes for the last few years. Every single codex this edition has been accompanied by a complete purge of that army's resin range. GW has even written an article about how they are going to move all non-titan FW models to legends.
Yet, when dread mob was announced, the pay to win crowd cleared them out everywhere, just to then be outraged when the obvious happened. The number of "I just bought $500 worth of these little guys, now they are useless :(" posts across all platforms was baffling. And yet the same people then went out an bought five or more boxes of MANz, just to be angry at the bully boyz nerf six months later.
GW is not doing this to people. They are doing it to themselves.
My post was not a complain, but the description of the process that teds to repeat.
I agree with the most of you write about motivations behind and around. You are right, that what I describe is not “a plan to scam”. It is maybe a rational plan based on couple of factors, most propably partialy no plan at all.
I agree with you with the one exception - because I do not build a new army every month like your dude, but every 2-3 years I need to speculate. It takes me a year to make it at least. I need to have an army that will works somehow on the end.
Do not base the army on FW models was exactly this type of speculation. Exactly because of what you say.
I play warhammer since 8th. Most of the time significant part of the codex/index was impossible to play competitive.
Now the balance is better and the purge of FW and same price for all equipement fix this drasticly too. The number of possible combinations is drasticly reduced.
But the experience form last few years I have is dangerous. I can paint for two years and than have an army for the shelf. Say hallo to my buggies.
That is where I do not agree with you. If you want to play competitive on the hobby level, you need to speculate what is gonna happen. It is hard and you will be mostly wrong but elementary logic “new models will be sooner or later fine” combined with “to make the ork army interesting during the time and sell the players the widest range of armys models, the cool/uncool models will be changed during the time” is legitimet argument. And it is not the complain. I ' m absolutely ok with it.
Simply, if the battlewagon and ghazzy was the best models for 5 years, everybody would play and paint just them and the game will be boring and business bad. We want a fun game and we need GW have the good business. No business no GW. So it is absolutely fine.
I just say - if you wanna have a competitive models next year, paint basics, snaggas and dreads and skip the buggies. Because of this.
Hey Jidmah, not disagreeing, but have you considered having a chat with said player?
Not wishing to pry but i generally think problems can be solved with a chat exploring the issue.
Although you might not care.. Totally ok with it. But pretty sure the guy being such a downer does not feels alright with the rest.
I am speaking from a perspective of a small local, every player is worth it's weight in gold. Don't get me wrong Warhammer is an expensive hobby, and in a poor and football fanatic country, i tend to fight tooth and nail for each.
As for speculation.. who cares, each model will have it's time in the sun, and if you really enjoy it, you will find a way to fit them somewhere... That's why i enjoy teaching new bros, they bring passion and energy to the game. Seeing them amazed at the minis that the meta says are crap is uplifting.. I dunno, some bros i even say "ignore the meta, have fun, kill stuff and see your stuff die".
Honestly i get more concerned about vet's, their generally very competitive and feel the meta more heavily.. hey even I. Then i have to remember I play orks, i never started playing for the win, just for the laugh's.
Heh, Jidmah is very right, that quite a lot of different builds could be succesfull. In todays Meta Monday, there are 2 ork armies - one Horde and one Bully.
You can see the bully with the tripple MANz in action here
Tomsug wrote: I agree with you with the one exception - because I do not build a new army every month like your dude, but every 2-3 years I need to speculate. It takes me a year to make it at least. I need to have an army that will works somehow on the end.
Do not base the army on FW models was exactly this type of speculation. Exactly because of what you say.
I play warhammer since 8th. Most of the time significant part of the codex/index was impossible to play competitive.
Now the balance is better and the purge of FW and same price for all equipement fix this drasticly too. The number of possible combinations is drasticly reduced.
But the experience form last few years I have is dangerous. I can paint for two years and than have an army for the shelf. Say hallo to my buggies.
I understand, but there is a difference in painting up 6 kanz and a dread in hopes dread mob gets buffed and painting up 18 mek gunz because they are gamebreaking good. Same for buggies. While I mourn my display case full of speed freeks, I have zero sympathy for those people who have 9 squigbuggies and 9 scrapjets on their shelves.
That is where I do not agree with you. If you want to play competitive on the hobby level, you need to speculate what is gonna happen.
What's competitive level though? LVO level? Do you attend GT regularly and try to win them? Do you play in a store where actual pros play? Or do you play at a store where half the people pretend to be competitive with few of them actually being good and many others just playing what everyone else is playing? Or are you playing in a gaming club, facing the same people every week with a meta that evolved different from the public competitive scene?
If you want to play the big league, you need to pay the big money. Eventually you own every model and the problem goes away. And since you clearly paint just as slow as I do and don't have a crew painting for you, you probably don't won't ever get there. In every other scenario today, in 10th player skill by far outweighs a perfect army composition, as long as you are running a functional army. Almost every datasheet in our codex has another, slightly less efficient one that does the same thing. The game will be harder and you won't win a big as you would otherwise, but you also aren't going to lose just because you didn't have that third unit of SAG+lootas.
When the wheel of balance turns, you can just look at your collection and run the best army from what you have. Afrodactyl is doing great with his beastsnaggas, despite none of the top competitive crowd even thinking about touching it with ten foot pole. Because his player skill makes much more of difference than the extra 5% win rate another army would have.
So my advice in general is to spread you collection of units as wide as you can. This way you will always have an army you can win with. Going all in on literally any unit is just asking for filling shelves with orks. Take this from someone who owns 4 battlewagons, 45 lootas without spannas, 3 KFF big meks and 3 fully magnetized bommers. I learned my lesson the hard way.
It is hard and you will be mostly wrong but elementary logic “new models will be sooner or later fine” combined with “to make the ork army interesting during the time and sell the players the widest range of armys models, the cool/uncool models will be changed during the time” is legitimet argument. And it is not the complain. I ' m absolutely ok with it.
Still waiting for the pain boss to be good. Or the snazzwagon. Or the wurrboy. Or the big 'ead bossbunka. Some models almost took 10 years to finally get their moment in the spotlight, like the mini mek or flash gits. And not for the lack of GW trying. It's literally a gamble and what you are describing here is the gambler's fallacy.
When you just buy the models you like or the models which are available at a discount (kill team, combat patrol, boarding action, battleforces), you are just as likely to hit gold as you are by trying to find patterns where there are none.
Forceride wrote: Hey Jidmah, not disagreeing, but have you considered having a chat with said player?
Not wishing to pry but i generally think problems can be solved with a chat exploring the issue.
Although you might not care.. Totally ok with it. But pretty sure the guy being such a downer does not feels alright with the rest.
I am speaking from a perspective of a small local, every player is worth it's weight in gold. Don't get me wrong Warhammer is an expensive hobby, and in a poor and football fanatic country, i tend to fight tooth and nail for each.
Yes, I got this issue out in the open to prevent people talking behind his back all the time without ever directly talking to him. However, he is gaslighting us and claims that he just like to play different things and just happens to stumble on good armies by accident/because. If he doesn't want to solve the problem, there is nothing we can do. It's not up to a toxic level though and he is a pleasant person to have around otherwise, so I just ignore his quarterly rants about GW ruining the hobby again, and that's it
Thanks for caring though.
As for speculation.. who cares, each model will have it's time in the sun, and if you really enjoy it, you will find a way to fit them somewhere... That's why i enjoy teaching new bros, they bring passion and energy to the game. Seeing them amazed at the minis that the meta says are crap is uplifting.. I dunno, some bros i even say "ignore the meta, have fun, kill stuff and see your stuff die".
Honestly i get more concerned about vet's, their generally very competitive and feel the meta more heavily.. hey even I. Then i have to remember I play orks, i never started playing for the win, just for the laugh's.
My point of view is more like that you don't need to chase the flavor of the month to play competitively. Your ability to play orks well, understand what the enemy is doing, how to counter them and plan for the meta is much more relevant to your ability to win games than having 15 MANz battle ready to get easy wins playing bully boyz for three months.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tomsug wrote: Forceride - do not tell this anyone, who bought a Mekboy Workshop
On the other side, it is quite valuable item on ebay now, so in fact, your are right
Never liked the model, it always felt like they slapped a random datasheet on scatter terrain. Love the datasheet though, so I got the one from kromlech. I hope they will eventually do a propper mek workshop like they did with the ADL.
I understand, but there is a difference in painting up 6 kanz and a dread in hopes dread mob gets buffed and painting up 18 mek gunz because they are gamebreaking good. Same for buggies. While I mourn my display case full of speed freeks, I have zero sympathy for those people who have 9 squigbuggies and 9 scrapjets on their shelves.
Yesss
Otherwise agree.
The fact is, that few aspects changed recently.
- Less “useless” units in the codex.
- If you want to fill the shelfs with the orks, good idea is “build the units” and and follow the leaders to other one to open himselfs the options. You can chain it.
- Max number of models possible in the army is drasticly reduced so the “final scale” of the army is significantly smaller than used to be. No more 9 buggies, 9 dreads, 9 different planes, no more 30 model blobs of boyz… 18 Koptas seems to be the last exception on the “man hours to paint to points” scale
Yeah, if you want to be a meta chaser, it's hard to be a serious Ork player without going wide on the collection, because I remember how much things have changed since 5th ed and what units have been the leading competitive units and it's ranged from units that technically no longer exist like Nob Bikers, to newer models like Morkanauts. It also doesn't help that we are not a point and click army (despite being seen as the wacky fun army) that has a lot of nuance and understanding to use our units effectively, so compared to the days of Riptide and Wraithknight spam, you normally don't go for Orks as one of the top meta factions. That's usually relegated to Tau, some flavour of Marines or Eldar.
Honestly? 2 of each is probably plenty even there. You'll probably wind up with more at some point, but generally speaking unless your goal is to run Green Tide specifically, its rarely optimal to have that many.
Tomsug wrote: ok guys, but be honest. there are two exceptions of this in the ork army
Boyz and Grots
There is never too much Boyz and Grots:-)
As the resident Grot player I disagree.
I don't want even 1 actual ork (character, must be Warlord in Crusade), let alone a unit of Boyz in my army. I don't want them, I don't need them, and they don't fit the theme.
LunarSol wrote: Great posts. You really shouldn't be picking up 3 of anything until you've got 2 of a variety of things.
Absolutely. For some models like the naut or many characters, even a single model is sufficient. And magnets are an ork's best friend anyways.
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Tomsug wrote: ok guys, but be honest. there are two exceptions of this in the ork army
Boyz and Grots
There is never too much Boyz and Grots:-)
Having three makes more sense for boyz and beastsnaggas, but every mob in excess of 3 is entering "this will be shelved for years" territory again. Gretchin are fine at two or three units.
The one unit I'd say you can never have enough of is trukks. Trukks have always been viable in one way or another, and in almost cases having more trukks was better than having less trukks.
I used to have 90 Boyz. 25mm base, my first models I painted. Yeah, it was a hell of a lesson.
This week I stripped the bases and paint of 40 of them to rebase and repaint them.
And heureka! During the scrubbing of the paint down - which is a great way how to meditate btw. - I found, that thanks to this small improvement I gonna have 4x20 + 1x10 squads of boyz ready to be played on friendly matches and first time in my life I gonna have an opportunity to play a real green horde. Definitely not my playstyle, but I definitely gonna give it a try!
I just got into 40k and have the new ork combat patrol set and have 2 500 point games (which will be my first) comin up against the necrons and the sisters of battle respectively got any strategies to krump them
I haven't played 40k in forever but I'm getting back into and I have a bunch of Orks lying around.
What's the main difference between these new Beastie Boys and regular Slugga Boys? Are they meant to be stronger against monsters/vehicles but a bit weaker against infantry? I originally played Snakebites so I think I'd like to take at least one squad of them.
Ive been playing tyranids for ages, and slowly coming back to playing some orks again.
I find 160 points for 4 measly models to be a very steep price, especially considering you DONT get +1 to hit anymore from any type of beastboss on squig or the nob.
So you are now forced to take on a larger unit and that unit cost more (even if the individual model price went down) and their damage gets cut by loosing access to +1 to hit.
And then when you wanna take all 8 models and a squiggosaur boss, you enter full 10 man terminator territory which just seem insane in terms of pricing.
Ive been playing tyranids for ages, and slowly coming back to playing some orks again.
I find 160 points for 4 measly models to be a very steep price, especially considering you DONT get +1 to hit anymore from any type of beastboss on squig or the nob.
So you are now forced to take on a larger unit and that unit cost more (even if the individual model price went down) and their damage gets cut by loosing access to +1 to hit.
And then when you wanna take all 8 models and a squiggosaur boss, you enter full 10 man terminator territory which just seem insane in terms of pricing.
Am i mistaken here?
I’m not a very competitive player but I have to say I love them. A basic squad with a beastboss added in is an absolute tank of a unit. Tough but hits like no one’s business. Point them at enemy armour and enjoy. Orks struggle due to a lack of high AP weapons, but these things are lethal to vehicles. I’ve had them take out any marine tank they have faced, even kratos sized and even a Lord of skulls in a single turn of shooting and combat. Not even going to get into efficiency and cost and things but all I will say is my squad of these (that I have just doubled the size of) is the most reliable unit I have.
Krod rod da killa wrote: I just got into 40k and have the new ork combat patrol set and have 2 500 point games (which will be my first) comin up against the necrons and the sisters of battle respectively got any strategies to krump them
I had to read like 3 times to figure out you meant two games of 500 points each
Some advice:
- Since you probably lack the experience to tell when to best call the Waaagh!, just call it on turn 2. Hard to go wrong with that
- Make sure to hide your stuff so it can't be shot in turn one, even if you go first. Getting shot less is of higher priority than closing the gap to your opponent.
- If your opponent has big models like monsters or tanks, your squigs are your best shot at taking them out. However, don't let yourself get baited into chasing something you can't reach.
- For orks currently scoring VPs is the path to victory and should be prioritized over killing as much as possible
- For necrons, make sure to grab objectives fast. They are slow and usually not that good in combat, so they will struggle to take them from a unit of beastsnaggas sitting on it.
- Do not split your killing power against necrons, make sure you kill anything you attack and don't worry about overkill. Otherwise you might see all your damage undone by reanimation.
- I have little experience against sisters, but be aware that they have a ton of meltas which will chew through squighogs with ease.
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Orkeosaurus wrote: I haven't played 40k in forever but I'm getting back into and I have a bunch of Orks lying around.
What's the main difference between these new Beastie Boys and regular Slugga Boys? Are they meant to be stronger against monsters/vehicles but a bit weaker against infantry? I originally played Snakebites so I think I'd like to take at least one squad of them.
Regular boyz are cheap, durable unit for taking/holding objectives, beastie boyz are an allrounder unit for killing stuff. Both units need a warboss/beastboss leader to do any serious damage.
Outside of the Waaagh! slugga boyz pretty much bounce of anything that's not infantry.
I’m not a very competitive player but I have to say I love them. A basic squad with a beastboss added in is an absolute tank of a unit. Tough but hits like no one’s business. Point them at enemy armour and enjoy. Orks struggle due to a lack of high AP weapons, but these things are lethal to vehicles. I’ve had them take out any marine tank they have faced, even kratos sized and even a Lord of skulls in a single turn of shooting and combat. Not even going to get into efficiency and cost and things but all I will say is my squad of these (that I have just doubled the size of) is the most reliable unit I have.
Pretty much this. Orks don't really have any good units to take out high toughness units with good saves. I'd rather pay premium for a unit which mitigates this weakness rather than just roll over dead when facing an army with multiple heavy tanks.
And honestly, even at 320 the unit is fairly durable compared to most other ork units besides MANz. They will definitely last longer than the same amount of points spent on any ork vehicle.
But dont they hit a lot less hard now compared to what they used to? They dont get +1 to hit anymore, which they did before. You hit on 3s and 4s rather than 2s and 3s. And if someone throws -1 to hit at your target youre down to 4s and 5s. Would they do better in to a knight than compared to 10 nobz with a warboss? The price is almost the same, 6 squighogs versus the nobz.
The nobz would probably wound big targets on 5s but with AP2 + you have the warboss and they can go through walls.
Squighogs cant go through walls and only have AP1. If 10 nobz and a warboss were to throw themselves at a knight i feel like they would do more damage than the 8 squighog boys, without really doing the math here (im really bad at math anyway).
I guess I need to see them in action then first. I just look at the loss of that sweet +1 to hit and a smaller unit that was cheaper because of the lack of a model. I feel like you really a pay a steep price for that 160 points.
But if you guys say so I guess ill have to try them out. I dont see them in competitive lists either, or at least havent in a while.
Your codex came out around the same time as mine (custodes) and yet your army seems to have improved sevenfold.
From a player who has never played as the Orks (in any edition or GW game system), I was wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing any tactical Intel with the enemy(me) that makes it easier to defeat the Orks in this newest edition?
::
Beardedragon wrote: I dont see them in competitive lists either, or at least havent in a while.
I've seen them in a few lists here and there, but they tend to be a 4 man unit with Moz or a Squigosaur that runs up the board to hunt a big vehicle or monster, then get splatted when they start drawing heavy fire. After running two blocks of 8 Hogs with Bosses for a while, I can definitely say that the reason we're not seeing Hogs (especially bigger units) in more lists is because Nobs exist.
Hogs hit like a truck into the right targets and are pretty durable, but Nobs hit like a truck regardless of their target. 10 nobs and a Warboss takes up waaaay less real estate on the board compared to 8 Hogs and a Squigosaur. Even if you take into account the trukk, it takes up less room because the trukk can simply move off after dropping the nobs where they need to be. Also, 10 nobs, Warboss and trukks is 100+ points cheaper than Hogs and Squigosaur so it gives you more options while building your list.
On a somewhat unrelated note, I think I'm going to give up on Da Big Hunt for a while and go back to War Horde. The extra AP is great, but there's more micro management involved and War Horde lets me switch my brain off and just have more fun. Sustained Hits feels like it covers for the lack of AP in most scenarios anyway, especially when I can just balance out the AP with forcing more saves. I tried my best to get it to work, but it feels like the effort involved isn't worth it when I spend most games fishing for 6s anyway.
Big Hunt has potential, it just needs a little nudge to get it out of the shadow of the bigger detachments. Maybe if each Beast Snagga unit got to choose it's own prey independently in the command phase or something.
The issue with hogs is the profile which they excel is rare. Most vehicles sport Sv2.
Hogs shine as brick and screening. Their durable with an absurd amount of wounds covered with FNP. In order for them to do something damage wise you need to add the boss with dev wound enhancement. But this makes them prohibitively costly. For me, treat them as a brick. They also have one of the best abilities in our faction in the bomb squigs. You can snipe solo lords with it and i have done so.
As for "murines" trucks with beastsnaggas + beastboss and more trucks with nobz+warboss. For shooting you have flashgitz.
Beardedragon wrote: But dont they hit a lot less hard now compared to what they used to? They dont get +1 to hit anymore, which they did before. You hit on 3s and 4s rather than 2s and 3s. And if someone throws -1 to hit at your target youre down to 4s and 5s. Would they do better in to a knight than compared to 10 nobz with a warboss? The price is almost the same, 6 squighogs versus the nobz. The nobz would probably wound big targets on 5s but with AP2 + you have the warboss and they can go through walls.
Squighogs cant go through walls and only have AP1. If 10 nobz and a warboss were to throw themselves at a knight i feel like they would do more damage than the 8 squighog boys, without really doing the math here (im really bad at math anyway).
I'll do the some napkin math: Hitting on 2+ and wounding on 5+ against 5+ armor is a 40/216 =18.51% chance Hitting on 3+ and wounding on 4+ against 4+ armor is a 36/216=16.67% chance Hitting on 4+, wounding on 4+ against 4+ armor is a 27/216=12.5% chance In a turn without Waaagh! buff, a single squighog will deal more damage to a high toughness vehicle or monster than a warboss. In addition, Nobz are easier to kill and slower unless you add trukk.
Obviously, nobz are better against pretty much anything else, but nothing prevents you from having both - especially when you are not trying to place first in GTs squighogs are a valid alternative for a MANz or nobz unit missing from your collection.
Squighogs - movement. With the Follow me ladz beastboss on saur they have 10+2” move + 3,5” advance + 7+1” charge = 23,5” range in waaagh, which is exactly the breaking point for charging over 14” no mens land.
Just keep in mind, that unfortunately, they cannot use “Ere we go” because, its INFANTRY only… yeah, I made this mistake :(
So just to clarify… because the Warboss’ abilities now work when the waaghh is active does this now mean they now get it if they start battle round in a transport as the waaaggh will be active in the combat phase?
No wolves on Fenris wrote: So just to clarify… because the Warboss’ abilities now work when the waaghh is active does this now mean they now get it if they start battle round in a transport as the waaaggh will be active in the combat phase?
Yes, its basically worded in a roundabout way that it works as intended again that Warbosses can still benefit from the WAAAGH! even if they were in a transport at the beginning of the battle round.
And the warboss in Mega armor also losing his +1 to damage. And Zodgrods waaagh ability, as both of those 2 models had wording similar to the warboss, so they also lost their bonuses.
Either way, it was the stupidest thing i had ever heard when i saw that they made that change, its good they reverted it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Have any of you thought about just running mozzie alone? Like a rapid ingress threat or something like that. Hes not as beefy as he used to be but hes still not directly easy to kill, and although he only has AP1 on most attacks, he hits fairly hard.
He doesnt really do anything major for his squighog unit so i thought, maybe he could run on his own?
The lads on the way to waagh
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ FACTION KEYWORD: Xenos – Orks
+ DETACHMENT: War Horde
+ TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 1995pts
+
+ WARLORD: Char1: Ghazghkull Thraka
+ ENHANCEMENT:
+ NUMBER OF UNITS: 25
+ SECONDARY: – Bring It Down: (5×2) – Assassination: 6 Characters
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Tomsug wrote: Regarding the Jidmahs “there is never enough trukks…
That's a solid list. Not sure if I'd take the Flash Gitz personally, in favour of more MANz (assuming they're walking up the board), but it's a good list otherwise.
@beardeddragon I've toyed with the idea of using a lone Squigosaur as a missile unit/distraction carnifex due to it's fairly decent speed and decent durability, but ultimately scrapped the idea. I've not thought about Moz though as he's more expensive for not that much more benefit. My main issue against it was speed and base size. It's too slow to be like the bikerboss missile of old, and its based size stops it from squeezing into those gaps the bikerboss loved to take advantage of. It's certainly worth a try as a distraction unit though, it's big, scary and durable enough to at least draw some firepower.
Had a custodies game with my war horde orks, and it went fine, with a victory to me.
I tried to use 2x4 squighogs with squigboss and Mozrog, and while i, admittedly completely forgot they had lance (my second ork game in like half a year) the squighogs didnt seem to do a lot. It seemed more like they were extra wounds for mozzie and the squigboss.
Then i looked at the pricing. Mozzie + 4 squighogs is like 5 point difference from 10 nobz, a trukk and a warboss. Of course for a beastboss + 4 squighogs the difference is larger than just 5 measly points from the Nob combo, except if you wanna give the beastboss his devastating wounds enhancement then suddenly the difference again is small.
Mozrog + 4 squighogs really didnt feel like a kick ass combo. by the end of the battle, both mozrog and the beastboss were still alive, but again, it felt more like the squighogs were just extra wounds for the characters, and the characters dont really do much for the squighogs either.
But if i wanted to go for 4 squighogs and a squigboss, why not just rapid ingress a gorkanaut in? Its even cheaper than them. So i dunno really. Im not super convinced them and a character is great for the price you pay. Also if you just bought 4 squighogs and throw them against a mini knight like a karnivore, i dont think you are statistically even going to kill it. Which is a shame because you pay more for your unit than he does for his, and they are designed to kill vehicles and monsters. It seems more like they are jack of all trades units these days.
However, it did make me think, that maybe Mozrog alone, is a pretty good rapid ingress threat. Because mozzie dont really care about the waagh when hes ingressed in. You usually dont need advance when ingressed, his invul is better than the waagh invul, and he only gets 1 extra melee attack. well i guess the strength helps too but still. In my game Mozrog alone carried a decent amount of weight in my game by tanking hits and killing people. He didnt seem to have a clear answer to neither mozrog nor the squigboss because they are now mounted and not monsters.
I need to try ingressing in 8 squighogs to see what that can do, because i think it might be okay. Not paying for a character though. Im just a bit afraid that the unit will be too large to ever get all models in to combat.
So thats the next i need to try. Ingressing in Mozzie alone for a cheap beat stick the enemy has to deal with, another game ingressing in 8 squighogs, and another one ingressing in a gorkanaut.
I think the big issue that both the squighogs and the characters on squig, Is their lack of ap, they can go against a big monster/veichles, but when you face a 2+ armour save and maybe also an armour of contempt, or a damage reduction, well, they don't do anything.
I mean, even a normal karnivore with a 3+ save would make 4+ saves.
4 squighog boys are 160 points, they would not, in general, take down a karnivore which is worth less points.
Lack of ap isnt the only problem they have. They just dont have access to +1 to hit which makes their attacks somewhat pitiful, considering the enemy will make +4 saves.
Among many things. You pay 40 points per model, which seem really really steep
I've found some success with 2 bricks of 8 Hogs with a Squigosaur each (not Moz). They're really durable, and so they generally either kill what they charge, or draw enough firepower to allow my Snagga Boy units to get into combat reasonably unscathed. Granted, it's a massive points investment that would probably be better used elsewhere, but they seem to work best as a "go hard or go home" unit.
In other news, Orks won 3 events over the weekend. One each for War Horde, Green Tide and Bully Boyz. There were a few top spots for us as well, but with only a 47% win rate overall. We're officially back in the Goldilocks zone.
Tomsug wrote: Regarding the Jidmahs “there is never enough trukks…
That's a solid list. Not sure if I'd take the Flash Gitz personally, in favour of more MANz (assuming they're walking up the board), but it's a good list otherwise.
@beardeddragon I've toyed with the idea of using a lone Squigosaur as a missile unit/distraction carnifex due to it's fairly decent speed and decent durability, but ultimately scrapped the idea. I've not thought about Moz though as he's more expensive for not that much more benefit. My main issue against it was speed and base size. It's too slow to be like the bikerboss missile of old, and its based size stops it from squeezing into those gaps the bikerboss loved to take advantage of. It's certainly worth a try as a distraction unit though, it's big, scary and durable enough to at least draw some firepower.
Having the Flashgitz in the Trukk with the Nobz is a pretty solid little piece of tech. I ran 10 Nobz and a Warboss for a while, but mostly found it overkill. Letting the Gitz clear screens either from the firing deck or disembarked is very useful, and makes the trukk a lot scarier after its dropped its main payload. Their melee is also not to be underestimated.
As for Squighogs, I think they're fine, but are definitely a little unweildy. I can't image running an 8 man as the 4 takes up so much table space. I find them pretty comparable to a Trukk delivered unit in terms of output, but they don't benefit as much from the Waaagh or either character. I have found Moz to be pretty worthwhile. Much better than the generic, even with a Headwhoppa. His leadership is kind of trash, and his unit is mostly ablative wounds, but it overall gets the job done. You can probably get something similar from a Trukk with 10 BSB and a Beastboss for a good deal less though. I'm not sure how cheap the unit would have to be to be spammed, but its definitely a unit where you'd be happy to take a lesser version to get the character in cheaper.
I didn't even consider firing deck. I have so little shooting in my list I forgot it was a thing. In that case, I like the Flash Gitz
8 Hogs and a Boss is a huge footprint, especially when you're taking 2 of said unit. But they do their job well for me. They either kill stuff or draw so much firepower away that my trukks and Hunta Rig get all my Snaggas up the board safely. I'll definitely be trying out 3x4 with bosses/Moz as soon as I find room in the carry case.
I have seen some of the winners of tournaments using the half flashgit half nobz trick, i think there is some merit. I am fortunate enough or not depending on the point of view to not handle a lot of screening, so i generally don't need on my local.
What i am testing is big mek with shock gun, i have seen great results for the weapon, AP 4 is nothing to scoff at. I am looking at this further and i am consistently doing damage with him at range.. adding some lootas makes for a potent mix where it might receive full rerolls, with heavy being key here, I see a lot of damage potential. Going to plot and test a bit more but hey i think he is auto include at 65pts for me at least.
As for squighogs, their a great damage sponge.. but too expensive, they work fine in any combination.. i am not sure it's worth adding characters, there are just better options that do the same and are cheaper, that's my take. A truck does the same role but it's way cheaper. Also for the people saying they do great damage, i don't agree, they bounce of almost everything, sure you can say that nobz bounce of the targets they chase, but we have other units and tools for that, and they are cheaper and more efficient.
Flash gitz or even burna boys in a trukk helps us defeat some of the most annoying match ups we have, in like tyranids, or other factions blocking us out with cheap trash.
Because we can actually shoot them now with burna boys/flash gitz.
Though for 20 points more you get a much better hitting platform too, i think id go for flash gitz over burnaboys.
What makes me wonder is a wrecking ball. It is the only piece of plastic, that is in the rule but not in the box. There is no wrecking ball in the battlewagon box nor in the upgrade set…
It makes me afraid about the BW. That feels like a relic of the past…and they do not sell an upgrade pack anymore…
They might refresh it. I have 2 of the old model, and 2 3d printed i guess they might refresh it.
The lacking upgrades is a loss for GW, we are mostly a kitbash faction in my opinion. Although i admit i still need to do my own. I guess painting is enough for me for now.
Forceride wrote: They might refresh it. I have 2 of the old model, and 2 3d printed i guess they might refresh it.
The lacking upgrades is a loss for GW, we are mostly a kitbash faction in my opinion. Although i admit i still need to do my own. I guess painting is enough for me for now.
Well I converting and kitbashing another Battlewagon right now and I found for me impossible to build an ork model as was designed. I 'm simply not able to do that But GW is not us…
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lathe Biosas wrote: Due to my love of all things big and stompy, is it feasible to build an ork stompa army as an opponent to imperial knights?
I have actually a better idea - this is my secret plan for the second army I gonna make as soon as all orks will be finished - build the knights army but convert them to “ork knights” and than play them both as chaos and imperial knights
Jidmah wrote:Thanks, but I'm looking for the actual PDF to have a high resolution source to print a card for it.
Ah, I can't help you then unfortunately.
Forceride wrote:We are getting a new detach. Any christmas wishes? Great day to be an ork.
We've kind of got most of the Ork klans covered. Assuming it's not a fixed Kult of Speed, maybe a Blood Axe type detachment as it's the only one not really covered? Emphasising use of Kommandos and the new tankbustas, perhaps using a crossfire-type mechanic to improve odds to hit/wound if you're targeting units with multiple of yours?
I don't know really, I'd be happy with a fixed KoS to be honest
I wish Speed Mob 2.0 but I 'm afraid we get Demolishing explosives specialist Infantry riding in Trukks with the new Tankbustas models.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well I give a try to big blob of Squigriders in War Horde = 8 riders + Beastboss on Robosaur.
They are a great target of ´Ard as nails. With T7 a lot of weapons trying to anyhilate them shifted on wounding from 5+ to 6+ or 4+ to 5+. Which we all know is the most effective range to make a modification reducing the chance to wound to 50% or 66,6%. and because a lot of riders needs to be killed, you defacto reduce the effectivity of majority of enemy attacks in the whole turn to 50 or 66%. And multi wound models with FNP crippled the wound distribution even further. Especially when you can choose between W3 rider or W4 Nob to alocate to make the bigger mess. Most of the weapons will be D3? Let' s start with the W4 Nobz..
Leman Russes, bulgryns and artylery of all kind had a fun with them for 5 turns.
They did a few damage but wasted enormous amount of fire and attention.
If we drink less beer, they would die faster I guess and 450p is a masive price but it worked very well! Blocked him one way out of deployment for the whole game.
But their weapons are stupid. 27 different weapon profiles on a single unit or how much… who we are? Space Marines?
Spoiler:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ FACTION KEYWORD: Xenos - Orks
+ DETACHMENT: War Horde
+ TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000pts
+
+ WARLORD: Char3: Beastboss on Squigosaur
+ ENHANCEMENT: Follow Me Ladz (on Char3: Beastboss on Squigosaur)
+ NUMBER OF UNITS: 21
+ SECONDARY: - Bring It Down: (2x2) + (1x4) - Assassination: 6 Characters
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Char1: 1x Beastboss (80 pts): Beast Snagga klaw, Beastchoppa, Shoota
Char2: 1x Beastboss (80 pts): Beast Snagga klaw, Beastchoppa, Shoota
Char3: 1x Beastboss on Squigosaur (155 pts): Warlord, Beastchoppa, Slugga, Squigosaur’s jaws
Enhancement: Follow Me Ladz (+25 pts)
Char4: 1x Big Mek in Mega Armour (90 pts): Grot oiler, Kustom force field, Kustom mega-blasta, Power klaw
Char5: 1x Warboss (65 pts): Kombi-weapon, Twin slugga, Power klaw
Char6: 1x Warboss (65 pts): Kombi-weapon, Twin slugga, Power klaw
5x Burna Boyz (60 pts)
• 4x Burna Boy: 4 with Burna, Cuttin’ flames
• 1x Spanner: Close combat weapon, Kustom mega-blasta
5x Flash Gitz (80 pts): Ammo Runt
• 1x Kaptin: Choppa, Snazzgun
• 4x Flash Gitz: 4 with Choppa, Snazzgun
11x Gretchin (40 pts)
• 10x Gretchin: 10 with Close combat weapon, Grot blasta
• 1x Runtherd: Grot-smacka, Slugga
11x Gretchin (40 pts)
• 10x Gretchin: 10 with Close combat weapon, Grot blasta
• 1x Runtherd: Grot-smacka, Slugga
3x Meganobz (105 pts): 3 with Killsaw, Power klaw
5x Nobz (105 pts)
• 1x Boss Nob: Power klaw, Slugga
• 4x Nob: 4 with Power klaw, Slugga
5x Nobz (105 pts)
• 1x Boss Nob: Power klaw, Slugga
• 4x Nob: 4 with Power klaw, Slugga
5x Stormboyz (65 pts)
• 1x Boss Nob: Slugga, Power klaw
• 4x Stormboy: 4 with Choppa, Slugga
5x Stormboyz (65 pts)
• 1x Boss Nob: Slugga, Power klaw
• 4x Stormboy: 4 with Choppa, Slugga
8x Squighog Boyz (320 pts): 2x Bomb squig
• 2x Nob on Smasha Squig: 2 with Big choppa, Slugga, Squig jaws
• 6x Squighog Boy: 6 with Saddlegit weapons, Squig jaws, Stikka
1x Battlewagon (160 pts): ’Ard Case, 4x Big shoota, Grabbin' klaw, Lobba, Wreckin' ball, Kannon, Deff rolla
1x Trukk (65 pts): Big shoota, Spiked wheels, Wreckin' ball
1x Trukk (65 pts): Big shoota, Spiked wheels, Wreckin' ball
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aaaand here we go…… last CI, TLM x Layton November GT, Bryce Bennett goes second with the big blob of Squigriders. Obviously the point there is go big on Beast Snagga with the double Killrig etc
Spoiler:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ FACTION KEYWORD: Xenos - Orks
+ DETACHMENT: War Horde
+ TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000pts
+
+ WARLORD: Char5: Beastboss on Squigosaur
+ ENHANCEMENT: Follow Me Ladz (on Char1: Beastboss)
& Kunnin’ But Brutal (on Char4: Beastboss on Squigosaur)
& Supa-Cybork Body (on Char5: Deffkilla Wartrike)
+ NUMBER OF UNITS: 18
+ SECONDARY: - Bring It Down: (2x4) - Assassination: 6 Characters - Cull The Horde: 1x5
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the second one! Sean Lengenfelder On GUTI Majestic Beasties IV also big squad of Hogriders. This time with the Mozrog
I've done some playing recently and have also moved on from multiple Hogs in favour of the brick. I've also added some shooting because my opponents are getting better at kiting and using screens
List in spoilers for anyone interested.
Spoiler:
Xenos - Orks - [1990pts]
# ++ Army Roster ++ [1990pts]
## Configuration
Battle Size: Strike Force (2000 Point limit)
Detachment: War Horde
Tomsug wrote: Hunta rig vs. Kill rig = boyz over toyz?
Mozrog vs Beastboss = krumpin over moving?
That's the way I look at it. Mozzie giving you free fight on death in a 4+ is super useful as well.
As for Hunta Vs Kill, I think it's down to what you value more; the transport itself or the things it's carrying. Personally, I want the sudden board presence of 20 snagga boys and a boss spilling out of it and the benefits they bring over some lascannon shots from a wurr tower.
Tomsug wrote: Hunta rig vs. Kill rig = boyz over toyz?
Mozrog vs Beastboss = krumpin over moving?
That's the way I look at it. Mozzie giving you free fight on death in a 4+ is super useful as well.
As for Hunta Vs Kill, I think it's down to what you value more; the transport itself or the things it's carrying. Personally, I want the sudden board presence of 20 snagga boys and a boss spilling out of it and the benefits they bring over some lascannon shots from a wurr tower.
I was thinking more about +1S ability shifting Snaggas from S5 to S6 which comes with effect againts all T3, Bulgryns, Outriders, Terminators, most of the Custodes, etc…
Tomsug wrote: Hunta rig vs. Kill rig = boyz over toyz?
Mozrog vs Beastboss = krumpin over moving?
That's the way I look at it. Mozzie giving you free fight on death in a 4+ is super useful as well.
As for Hunta Vs Kill, I think it's down to what you value more; the transport itself or the things it's carrying. Personally, I want the sudden board presence of 20 snagga boys and a boss spilling out of it and the benefits they bring over some lascannon shots from a wurr tower.
I was thinking more about +1S ability shifting Snaggas from S5 to S6 which comes with effect againts all T3, Bulgryns, Outriders, Terminators, most of the Custodes, etc…
Oh yeah, that's really good as well. Admittedly I haven't used it much as a lot of my earlier lists already had a decent amount of S6 and up through the various squigs in the list.
Afrodactyl wrote: Am I right in saying the KMB is the best weapon for spannas? Is it ever worthwhile taking the rokkit outside of not being hazardous?
Outside of dreads in dreadmob, I see little reason to use rokkits over KMB. If you ever need extra rokkits, there are tons of units which can bring them, but the KMB is mostly limited to squad leaders and characters.
Hazardous is no factor whatsoever. The number of times a KMB model could have shot at another valuable target after it blew itself up is tiny compared to the number of times a KMB scored 2d6 damage against a vehicle or character.
Orks in general do not struggle against hordes at all, and even if your particular list does, rokkits aren't going to solve that problem. Rokkits - just like PKs - are really nice jack of all trades weapons that shines most against durable squads of 10 like LoV or various flavors of chaos marines. But it's not like three shots of KMBs are terrible against those targets either, and we don't get a lot of other weapons which can threaten high wound models.
JNAProductions wrote: Blast is nice.
If you commonly face large hordes, d3+2 to d3+4 is better than flat 3.
I feel like Blast [2] or Blast [3] needs to be a thing on certain weapons. Obviously not on a unit, but for vehicles it would be cool to have a huge rokkit that technically only has a single shot but is effective vs hordes.
JNAProductions wrote: Blast is nice.
If you commonly face large hordes, d3+2 to d3+4 is better than flat 3.
I feel like Blast [2] or Blast [3] needs to be a thing on certain weapons. Obviously not on a unit, but for vehicles it would be cool to have a huge rokkit that technically only has a single shot but is effective vs hordes.
Would that be Blast (2/3 extra shots per 5 models in targeted unit) or Blast (1 extra shot per 2/3 models in targeted unit)?
JNAProductions wrote: Blast is nice.
If you commonly face large hordes, d3+2 to d3+4 is better than flat 3.
I feel like Blast [2] or Blast [3] needs to be a thing on certain weapons. Obviously not on a unit, but for vehicles it would be cool to have a huge rokkit that technically only has a single shot but is effective vs hordes.
Would that be Blast (2/3 extra shots per 5 models in targeted unit) or Blast (1 extra shot per 2/3 models in targeted unit)?
Grimskul wrote: Hopefully our detachment is something that has more to do with shooting or is dakka focused in some way to align with the new tankbusta release.
It would make sense. Even with the lowest amount of brain power you could have something like:
Dakka Dakka Dakka
Ranged weapons equipped by Orks models have the Sustained Hits 1 ability. If a ranged weapon already has the Sustained Hits ability, increase the value by 1.
Or if you wanted something a bit more interesting and strategic, maybe some sort of Crossfire mechanic that compounds bonuses or debuffs the more units you have shooting at a target. Like +1 AP for the second unit and beyond, +1 to wound for the third and on, etc. Would be a nice way of representing Bad Moons dakka and Blood Axe ambushes in one detachment.
Played my first game with Dredd mob and it was great fun. I took lootas as everyone seems to think they’re great in this detachment but I found them really underwhelming. How are you guys using them? I just parked them in cover and stayed still shooting. Didn’t do any damage and got shot off the board in a turn. They had a big mek with them.
Finally killed something with my shokk attack gun as well, one spotted two obliterators (with its third shot!) and now it’s my fave thing ever.
Andykp wrote: Played my first game with Dredd mob and it was great fun. I took lootas as everyone seems to think they’re great in this detachment but I found them really underwhelming. How are you guys using them? I just parked them in cover and stayed still shooting. Didn’t do any damage and got shot off the board in a turn. They had a big mek with them.
Finally killed something with my shokk attack gun as well, one spotted two obliterators (with its third shot!) and now it’s my fave thing ever.
You basically play them 8th edition style. Depending on your opponent's effective ranges, you can just put them in plain sight of a midfield objective or you hide them until you get range on your KMBs and walk out. Cover will not save them, so the main reason to bother is to reduce damage from secondary weapons like bolters or stubbers. Keeping them stationary just because of heavy against armies that outrange you is a trap. If you are running around, your KMBs still shoot at full BS, and targeting units on objectives mitigates the BS 6+. Even if you are hiding them, often enough an opponent will drive something valuable into plain sight of them and then you get to shoot it at full power. And keep in mind that certain models are just impossible to hide, you will be able to shoot them eventually.
What makes lootas shine in dreadmob are the stratagems, especially the bigger shells one. If there is a valuable vehicle or monster in range, don't hold back. Pick lethal or sustained hits depending on your wound roll, and always opt for hazardous on the stratagems. I have had them shred a monolith in a single round due to every unsaved 4+ roll causing 3 damage each.
Be aware that lootas are very much not good against units with a 2+ save. Most times you are better off shooting up some guardsmen than trying your luck with a LRBT - unless you really, really need that LRBT gone.
Cheers, makes sense. I just stood in cover, shot on turn one, didn’t strat them (doh) and they got deleted by bolter armed legionnaires on next shooting phase. And I shot at a 2+ save unit and did as expected, naff all. So I basically did it all wrong. I will give them another try and see how it goes.
Just wish to add a few thing's to what jidmah mentioned. I have had the same experience as him with the models. But i bring big meks with shock attack gun's. The -4AP is amazing. Lootas are mostly for re-rolls, if you can't get full re-rolls their a waste and i rather bring 2 mek guns, that's 2d3+2 with blast and more importantly -3AP. Lootas, flashgitz, all suffer of the same issue of low AP and excel at clearing mostly chaff.You might get lucky and your opponent might roll 1s or 2s but do you really want try your luck?
So yeah, rokkets, kustom-mega blasta are surprisingly really good at forcing saves, and smasha guns / shock gun to force those save 2 into 4/5 saves.
I know i am being warboss obvious, but i have seen many asking this question before.
Agree, every mob of lootas should be accompanied by a SAG in dread mob. Without it they are lacking the mek keywords anyways and it's just the best fit for the unit in every aspect.
I have toyed with both the Gitfinder Googlez and Press It Fasta! enhancements, but neither was a clear winner. Against armies which rely on cover, the googlez are great, against armies that don't they do nothing. Since you are usually shooting at vehicles and monsters, it rarely makes a difference. Press It Fasta! is just gambling. It will fail to do anything almost all of the time because you roll doubles, have good rolls, but no/few sixes, are not rolling the buff you need or the unit dies before shooting something of consequence. But once in a while, the stars align and you get lethal and sustained and roll a bunch of sixes against while using bigger shells and it completely obliterates their target. Fun, but the opposite of reliable and absolutely not worth the points.
My verdict on both is that you only should pick them up if have points to spare and are not running a unit which wants smokey gubbins or the glowy fing. If you are spending 40 points or more on enhancements, get some yourself gretchin instead.
I’m digging out my older metal shokk attack gun for the next battle and bringing 2. Thought about sitting the big mek with KFF (my groups fine with legends) with the lootas, give the mek key word and a bit of protection.
Thanks for the share, I can start planning my build, ordered it this morning. I doubt the old tankbuusters data sheet will go anywhere this edition as it’s in the codex. Next edition it will be long gone.
IMO, it's more likely that we get two datasheets - one for tankbustas and one for wreckas/breakas as a brand new unit.
It's not guaranteed, but these times GW usually goes for multiple datasheets when you have two load-outs that don't mix well. Tyranid warriors or crisis suits are good examples of that.
Interesting detail is that those rokkit backpacks seem to be weapons - hopefully that carries over to 40k, having an extra two d3 blast weapons would go a long way to make tank bustas viable. Just imagine, current ability and points but 6 tankbustas with 5 rokkits, 2 rokkit pistols and 2 rokkit racks. Sound like exactly the kind of rokkit unit many of us were waiting for.
Looks like it would need a new tankbusta one if that does happen, because the numbers in the squad don’t match up (5 boyz and a nob vs 4 and a nob) and I’m hoping the Evy rokkit launcher is new higher strength version.
Tomsug wrote: I ' m interested in the way how to make the rokkits S11+
Because that is what should be done.
You might want to have a look at the ability on the tankbusta datasheet.
They are already wounding any tank or monster in the game on 3s.
The +1 to wound is great but it still leaves us wounding “most” tanks on 4+. Am I missing something where they wound them all on a 3+?
No, you're right, most tanks that we have difficulty dealing with have T11 or higher, and rokkits are only S9 at the moment, I think Jidmah might have a different profile in his head he mixed up by accident.
Btw, with the equipment changes in the new squad, will you guys use your old pistol tankbustas as nobs now and your old tankbusta nobz as heavy rokkit (if that gets a 40K profile)?
Yeah, not sure what the 40k rules look like, I know the Kill Team rules are out already but they don't translate very well to 40k rules. At most it seems to imply a 4+ save as the baseline and some equivalent of the old tankhammer rules for the melee loadout for one of the guys.
Big Meks being able to join the new Tankbustas and Breaka Boyz is big. Means they'll have a lot of utility for getting Dred Mob buffs, though they are pretty expensive at 140 points. At least they're tankier at 2W a pop and a 4+ save, so you'd probably aim to have a few of these bad boyz slapped in a trukk or something and sent off against the nearest enemy vehicle.
The Breaka Boyz look like they will be our new anti-vehicle melee unit of choice.
With a Warboss, they hit on a 2+ and have a decent amount of Anti attacks with -2 AP and D3, as well as the Warbosses attacks. They obviously get even better in Dread Mob with a Mek attached.
Which lets the big unit of Nobs to go running around pulping everything else that the Breaka Boyz can't.
I actually really like the new tankbustas sheet. Just having all those rokkits there, with the buffs when shooting vehicles, and the Pulsa Rokkit buff, they'll really make a nice dent.
They also have two wounds each and a 4+ save. No more deleting them with half-assed shooting.
Tank bustas are just great:
- 5 rokkits instead of 3
- still got 2 bomb squigs
- option to have a 6th rokkit or a direly needed once per game strength and AP buff
- rokkit pistols now have proper rokkit strength, damage and AP - mandatory tankhammer gone, but the nob can trade one pistol for a much better smashhammer
- can be joined by big meks, which then gives then re-rolls to hit and the mek keyword while the mek benefits from pulsa rokkit and +1 to hit and wound. They are too expensive to babysit a SAG, but a KMB mek will probably work really well
- They only take up 6 slots in a transport, you could have 12d3 shots from a single trukk. Too bad the BW's firing deck was nerfed.
Breakas are nice, but I feel like 10+5 attacks at AP2/1 isn't as killy as it needs to be. Outside of the Waaagh! they might bounce off the very units they are supposed to kill. That said, the weird boy is probably the best leader for them. Da Jump synergizes well with their build-in re-rolls to charge.
This stuff is cool, but I fear a bit costly and the 6th man makes Trukks tricky with characters. Very curious how they end up competing with Nobz and Gitz respectfully. I doubt we'll really get to find out until multiple copies are more wildly available, but I'm excited to see they've definitely got a place.
I think personally I'd stay with the double Rokkit pistols on the Nob, and take the Pulsa Rokkit. The extra Rokkit every turn from the Nob and the option to deebuff a really hard target feels like it outweighs a few melee swings from a hammer.
I really like the look of a Warboss with the breakas, just for the +1 to hit. Take all smash hammas and a tankhamma, hit on essentially everything, then it's coin flips to wound. The AP-2 isn't incredible, don't get me wrong, but against really hard targets it's more coin flips to save. Then the Warboss gets his own attacks.
The Tankbustas definitely now have a home again as our general purpose ranged anti tank unit. Bustas do tanks, Burnas do hordes, and Gitz and Lootas are a more general purpose unit.
I'll need someone smarter than me to do that maths on Breaka Boyz, but they look pretty good on paper to me at the moment.
I'm just happy that the kit, although originally designed for Kill Team, isn't the smorgasbord of weird "if you have 10 models, 1 model gets to have *blank*" equipment for a bunch of the stuff that's in the kit that has no meaningful synergy that a lot of the Kill Team units are sometimes plagued by.
The fact that both units were separated as different datasheets is a god(gork?) send since it makes them do what they're supposed to do versus the schizophrenic build that they forced them to be with the old metal/resin models.
JNAProductions wrote: Where are the rules for the new Orks?
Are they app-only for now?
Yeah. Seems like for WarCom they want to space out the reveal but the datasheet itself was in the App build so its just there. There's not even points in the MFM.
JNAProductions wrote: Where are the rules for the new Orks? Are they app-only for now?
Yeah. Seems like for WarCom they want to space out the reveal but the datasheet itself was in the App build so its just there. There's not even points in the MFM.
Gorch. I can be patient to learn. Thanks for the knowledge.
Compared to nobz or meganobz....not sure if breaka boyz are that great.
Base 2 attacks. Uh, okay. How is this better than twin linked killsaws? Bomb squigs I guess.
The knucklebustas look really cool but you can only take 1.
Not a nob unit, doesn't qualify for bully boys without a warboss. Eh?
Regular tankbustas seem much more interesting. +1 to hit and wound is sick at least. But then you're forced to take two rokkit pistols, the advantage of which escapes me. Rokkit launcha also just says blast, not heavy, and it hits on 5's, so perma 4+ to hit is very nice by work standards. That seems to be the obvious winner to me. You could fit a mek in the unit
Big Mek's weapons and ability seem to synergize with them well, allowing them to move through terrain and get rerolls to 1s which is much better with a 4+.
I am also leaning into tankbustas, i am looking at using them inside trucks with a retinue of nobz, 6d3+blast? At 120pts? 2 bomb squigs? 2W? S+ 4? shut up and take my money!
While wreckas are nice their way more expensive then nobz and are specialized while nobz are generalist.
Also it's competing for the warboss for the +1, it is also competing with meganobz with twin link saws, and those only cost 35pts more and are far more durable...
Btw using squigs on a unit that wants to advance is a pain...
Dunno where the wreckas will land, i can see play on Dread Waagghh, combo for re-roll advance and re-roll charge and -2 on crit.
Dunno, at best wreckas would need to cost close to Nobz to even compete.
It's funny because this is the weapon profile squig riders should have..
Dunno, at best wreckas would need to cost close to Nobz to even compete..
They're just a bit more than 2 ppm more, but its definitely significant. Dropping them 10 points would make it a closer contest for sure, maybe even as low as 125.
TedNugent wrote: Compared to nobz or meganobz....not sure if breaka boyz are that great.
Base 2 attacks. Uh, okay. How is this better than twin linked killsaws? Bomb squigs I guess.
The knucklebustas look really cool but you can only take 1.
Not a nob unit, doesn't qualify for bully boys without a warboss. Eh?
Regular tankbustas seem much more interesting. +1 to hit and wound is sick at least. But then you're forced to take two rokkit pistols, the advantage of which escapes me. Rokkit launcha also just says blast, not heavy, and it hits on 5's, so perma 4+ to hit is very nice by work standards. That seems to be the obvious winner to me. You could fit a mek in the unit
Big Mek's weapons and ability seem to synergize with them well, allowing them to move through terrain and get rerolls to 1s which is much better with a 4+.
Breakas are pretty good, in Warhorde. They are better at busting Veh/Mon in melee than Nobz with Klaws by a big margin. They arent impacted by -1 to wound vs those targets, arent as badly hurt with a -1 as Nobz are and -1 damage doesnt cripple their output by half them like it does with Klawz. With Unbridled Carnage on a Waaagh! they get 21 hits with a Wabosses +1 which vs a standard T9+ 2+ save Veh/Monster, that equals 10 wounds, 5 failed saves for 15 damage, 10 if its -1 damage. Thats before we add D3 MWs from a Bomb Squig or the Warbosses 9 attacks. Nobz can only dream of that level of krumpin. Nobz shine more in Bullboyz where Breakas dont really have a home as they dont have the Nob keyword and Tankbustas beat them in Dreadmob. Breakas also have a place in Kult of Speed with Fasta than Yooz, not that Kult of Speed really exists as a viable detachment. They also synergise with a Weirdboy and 'Ere We Go. P.S Knuckle-bustas suck, trading AP2 and Damage 3 for 3 addtional attacks with twin-linked isnt worth it, its kind of a trap option. 5 Smasha Hammers and a Tank Hammer should be the default loadout.
The best Big Mek for Tankbustas is actually the SAG Mek, cheaper, does more reliable damage and the Shokk-boosta isnt really needed on them, they shouldnt be advancing and will general live in a Trukk until its time to disembark. Moving through terrain is a zero factor for Infantry as is unless its physically impassible which doesnt tend to exist with ruins.
Rokkit Pistols have been improved, they are now Str 9 AP 2 and Damage 3 with 2 shots instead of 1 twin-linked. Within 12" a unit of Bustas is throwing out 5d3+2 Rokkits (5 are Blast if you arent gunning for their intended target) and D3 MWs from a Bomb Squig. There is no reason to take a Smasha Hamma on the Boss. Paired with a Pulsa you are looking at Str 10 AP 3, a Gitfindas for Ignores Cover and Bigger Shellz for +1 Damage. Rokkits havent been Heavy for the faction for a long while.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forceride wrote: I am also leaning into tankbustas, i am looking at using them inside trucks with a retinue of nobz, 6d3+blast? At 120pts? 2 bomb squigs? 2W? S+ 4? shut up and take my money!
While wreckas are nice their way more expensive then nobz and are specialized while nobz are generalist.
Also it's competing for the warboss for the +1, it is also competing with meganobz with twin link saws, and those only cost 35pts more and are far more durable...
Btw using squigs on a unit that wants to advance is a pain...
Dunno where the wreckas will land, i can see play on Dread Waagghh, combo for re-roll advance and re-roll charge and -2 on crit.
Dunno, at best wreckas would need to cost close to Nobz to even compete.
It's funny because this is the weapon profile squig riders should have..
Whilst Nobz are generlists they really shruggle when things start applying modifiers which doesnt impact Breakas as much. -1 to hit puts Nobz back onto 4s to hit, -1 to wound especially from a T10 tank or monster is horrific even during a Waaagh turn, turning them to 5s to wound or 6s vs anything T11+, -1 Damage makes them anemic. Where they surpass Breakas is volume, they have close to a 3rd more attacks which when needed are str 10, they are generally more tougher with the -1 to wound with the Warboss (but they still drop like flies whenever someone genuinely wants them gone).
You can probably rely on Breakas to take out a tough target, you cant ask the same with Nobz who are more suited for dominating heavy infantry and Marines. With Unbridled Carnage a Tank Hammer alone on a Waaagh! turn on average kicks out 2 dev wounds at Damage 3 by itself, you add a Bomb Squig and thats 8MWs. Thats Beastboss territory. Will I take them? No, I run Dreadmob where Tankbustas really shine, but I can see them as a common pick for Warhorde.
Also the Pulsa Rokkit is probably the better pick for Bustas. +1 Str and AP on the units (including attached Big Meks) ranged weapons once per game is better than d3 extra blast shots. Str 10 is a big break point for many vehicles and monster, and AP 3 Rokkit (especially with Ignore Cover) puts most tanks on a 6+ save, or 5+ if they are rocking a 2+ save. Thats way more value than an extra Rokkit Launcha.
TedNugent wrote: Compared to nobz or meganobz....not sure if breaka boyz are that great.
Base 2 attacks. Uh, okay. How is this better than twin linked killsaws? Bomb squigs I guess.
The knucklebustas look really cool but you can only take 1.
Not a nob unit, doesn't qualify for bully boys without a warboss. Eh?
Regular tankbustas seem much more interesting. +1 to hit and wound is sick at least. But then you're forced to take two rokkit pistols, the advantage of which escapes me. Rokkit launcha also just says blast, not heavy, and it hits on 5's, so perma 4+ to hit is very nice by work standards. That seems to be the obvious winner to me. You could fit a mek in the unit
Big Mek's weapons and ability seem to synergize with them well, allowing them to move through terrain and get rerolls to 1s which is much better with a 4+.
Breakas are pretty good, in Warhorde. They are better at busting Veh/Mon in melee than Nobz with Klaws by a big margin. They arent impacted by -1 to wound vs those targets, arent as badly hurt with a -1 as Nobz are and -1 damage doesnt cripple their output by half them like it does with Klawz. With Unbridled Carnage on a Waaagh! they get 21 hits with a Wabosses +1 which vs a standard T9+ 2+ save Veh/Monster, that equals 10 wounds, 5 failed saves for 15 damage, 10 if its -1 damage. Thats before we add D3 MWs from a Bomb Squig or the Warbosses 9 attacks. Nobz can only dream of that level of krumpin. Nobz shine more in Bullboyz where Breakas dont really have a home as they dont have the Nob keyword and Tankbustas beat them in Dreadmob. Breakas also have a place in Kult of Speed with Fasta than Yooz, not that Kult of Speed really exists as a viable detachment. They also synergise with a Weirdboy and 'Ere We Go. P.S Knuckle-bustas suck, trading AP2 and Damage 3 for 3 addtional attacks with twin-linked isnt worth it, its kind of a trap option. 5 Smasha Hammers and a Tank Hammer should be the default loadout.
The best Big Mek for Tankbustas is actually the SAG Mek, cheaper, does more reliable damage and the Shokk-boosta isnt really needed on them, they shouldnt be advancing and will general live in a Trukk until its time to disembark. Moving through terrain is a zero factor for Infantry as is unless its physically impassible which doesnt tend to exist with ruins.
Rokkit Pistols have been improved, they are now Str 9 AP 2 and Damage 3 with 2 shots instead of 1 twin-linked. Within 12" a unit of Bustas is throwing out 5d3+2 Rokkits (5 are Blast if you arent gunning for their intended target) and D3 MWs from a Bomb Squig. There is no reason to take a Smasha Hamma on the Boss. Paired with a Pulsa you are looking at Str 10 AP 3, a Gitfindas for Ignores Cover and Bigger Shellz for +1 Damage. Rokkits havent been Heavy for the faction for a long while.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forceride wrote: I am also leaning into tankbustas, i am looking at using them inside trucks with a retinue of nobz, 6d3+blast? At 120pts? 2 bomb squigs? 2W? S+ 4? shut up and take my money!
While wreckas are nice their way more expensive then nobz and are specialized while nobz are generalist.
Also it's competing for the warboss for the +1, it is also competing with meganobz with twin link saws, and those only cost 35pts more and are far more durable...
Btw using squigs on a unit that wants to advance is a pain...
Dunno where the wreckas will land, i can see play on Dread Waagghh, combo for re-roll advance and re-roll charge and -2 on crit.
Dunno, at best wreckas would need to cost close to Nobz to even compete.
It's funny because this is the weapon profile squig riders should have..
Whilst Nobz are generlists they really shruggle when things start applying modifiers which doesnt impact Breakas as much. -1 to hit puts Nobz back onto 4s to hit, -1 to wound especially from a T10 tank or monster is horrific even during a Waaagh turn, turning them to 5s to wound or 6s vs anything T11+, -1 Damage makes them anemic. Where they surpass Breakas is volume, they have close to a 3rd more attacks which when needed are str 10, they are generally more tougher with the -1 to wound with the Warboss (but they still drop like flies whenever someone genuinely wants them gone).
You can probably rely on Breakas to take out a tough target, you cant ask the same with Nobz who are more suited for dominating heavy infantry and Marines. With Unbridled Carnage a Tank Hammer alone on a Waaagh! turn on average kicks out 2 dev wounds at Damage 3 by itself, you add a Bomb Squig and thats 8MWs. Thats Beastboss territory. Will I take them? No, I run Dreadmob where Tankbustas really shine, but I can see them as a common pick for Warhorde.
Also the Pulsa Rokkit is probably the better pick for Bustas. +1 Str and AP on the units (including attached Big Meks) ranged weapons once per game is better than d3 extra blast shots. Str 10 is a big break point for many vehicles and monster, and AP 3 Rokkit (especially with Ignore Cover) puts most tanks on a 6+ save, or 5+ if they are rocking a 2+ save. Thats way more value than an extra Rokkit Launcha.
Going to have to burst your bubble a bit, i am fairly aware of those short comings from nobz, all you are saying is true.. this is something some of you were discussing a while back but i choose not to intervene because the answer has already been provided multiple times:
Use the right tool for the right job, there are multiple units that can deal with high T which have proven themselves, from beast boss with beast snagas, warp tower from kill rig, ghaz aura during waggh and ghaz himself, mek gun with S12, even dread claws are S12, my favorite is to just pack 5 meganobz with double killsaw with a warboss inside a truck, by all means, try doge that with out screening.. You have gorkas and morkas claw and if you really want to go dread wagghh there is plenty of strats there to deal with high T.
Nobz aren't a answer to high T, if you have to do that, that's because your desperate and there aren't better targets. But their really useful against elite infantry, chaff and a very big threat against characters(funny because you agree with me on this), you can also provide them with tools like i mentioned before, where they can reach S11 during waggh or lethals (ever seen 10 nobz + boss with lethals and sustained with crits on 5? I can tell you i deleted more then 400 points that turn). Unless i see a meta of heavy vehicle, where every one is T12 i will not consider them much. What i do see is bricks of elite units where claws are lot more useful, i see one or another tough vehicle where my beast boss tags them and my meganobz just go make friends.
Frankly, i am more concerned with screens and shooting, have you ever fought an IG or DG? God DG are a pain in the ass to deal with melee and wreckas have nothing into that match! Has for the pulsa rokkit, pretty sure you can't use it inside trucks. My idea is to use tankbustas inside the truks as chaff clear and potentially pop them out if a target of opportunity presents itself. They will probably never leave the trucks, and if they do it's to pop double squig shoot and run back in if they don't die.. so i kinda value the extra rocket for more shots, their going to replace flashgitz in my lists, the ladz have been under performing.
Anyway i hate talking of hypothetical perfect situations, those are rare, the situations that you mention are not common, and if you walked into those, is because mistakes were made. I will wait and see where the wreckas land but i am not convinced. For all i know, meta might shift to high T, but i been here since the start and i haven't seen any signs yet.
Also it sounds like your local is heavy on vehicles, mine is shooting heavy... high T is the least of my problems lol.
TedNugent wrote: Compared to nobz or meganobz....not sure if breaka boyz are that great.
Base 2 attacks. Uh, okay. How is this better than twin linked killsaws? Bomb squigs I guess.
The knucklebustas look really cool but you can only take 1.
Not a nob unit, doesn't qualify for bully boys without a warboss. Eh?
Regular tankbustas seem much more interesting. +1 to hit and wound is sick at least. But then you're forced to take two rokkit pistols, the advantage of which escapes me. Rokkit launcha also just says blast, not heavy, and it hits on 5's, so perma 4+ to hit is very nice by work standards. That seems to be the obvious winner to me. You could fit a mek in the unit
Big Mek's weapons and ability seem to synergize with them well, allowing them to move through terrain and get rerolls to 1s which is much better with a 4+.
Breakas are pretty good, in Warhorde. They are better at busting Veh/Mon in melee than Nobz with Klaws by a big margin. They arent impacted by -1 to wound vs those targets, arent as badly hurt with a -1 as Nobz are and -1 damage doesnt cripple their output by half them like it does with Klawz. With Unbridled Carnage on a Waaagh! they get 21 hits with a Wabosses +1 which vs a standard T9+ 2+ save Veh/Monster, that equals 10 wounds, 5 failed saves for 15 damage, 10 if its -1 damage. Thats before we add D3 MWs from a Bomb Squig or the Warbosses 9 attacks. Nobz can only dream of that level of krumpin. Nobz shine more in Bullboyz where Breakas dont really have a home as they dont have the Nob keyword and Tankbustas beat them in Dreadmob. Breakas also have a place in Kult of Speed with Fasta than Yooz, not that Kult of Speed really exists as a viable detachment. They also synergise with a Weirdboy and 'Ere We Go. P.S Knuckle-bustas suck, trading AP2 and Damage 3 for 3 addtional attacks with twin-linked isnt worth it, its kind of a trap option. 5 Smasha Hammers and a Tank Hammer should be the default loadout.
The best Big Mek for Tankbustas is actually the SAG Mek, cheaper, does more reliable damage and the Shokk-boosta isnt really needed on them, they shouldnt be advancing and will general live in a Trukk until its time to disembark. Moving through terrain is a zero factor for Infantry as is unless its physically impassible which doesnt tend to exist with ruins.
Rokkit Pistols have been improved, they are now Str 9 AP 2 and Damage 3 with 2 shots instead of 1 twin-linked. Within 12" a unit of Bustas is throwing out 5d3+2 Rokkits (5 are Blast if you arent gunning for their intended target) and D3 MWs from a Bomb Squig. There is no reason to take a Smasha Hamma on the Boss. Paired with a Pulsa you are looking at Str 10 AP 3, a Gitfindas for Ignores Cover and Bigger Shellz for +1 Damage. Rokkits havent been Heavy for the faction for a long while.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forceride wrote: I am also leaning into tankbustas, i am looking at using them inside trucks with a retinue of nobz, 6d3+blast? At 120pts? 2 bomb squigs? 2W? S+ 4? shut up and take my money!
While wreckas are nice their way more expensive then nobz and are specialized while nobz are generalist.
Also it's competing for the warboss for the +1, it is also competing with meganobz with twin link saws, and those only cost 35pts more and are far more durable...
Btw using squigs on a unit that wants to advance is a pain...
Dunno where the wreckas will land, i can see play on Dread Waagghh, combo for re-roll advance and re-roll charge and -2 on crit.
Dunno, at best wreckas would need to cost close to Nobz to even compete.
It's funny because this is the weapon profile squig riders should have..
Whilst Nobz are generlists they really shruggle when things start applying modifiers which doesnt impact Breakas as much. -1 to hit puts Nobz back onto 4s to hit, -1 to wound especially from a T10 tank or monster is horrific even during a Waaagh turn, turning them to 5s to wound or 6s vs anything T11+, -1 Damage makes them anemic. Where they surpass Breakas is volume, they have close to a 3rd more attacks which when needed are str 10, they are generally more tougher with the -1 to wound with the Warboss (but they still drop like flies whenever someone genuinely wants them gone).
You can probably rely on Breakas to take out a tough target, you cant ask the same with Nobz who are more suited for dominating heavy infantry and Marines. With Unbridled Carnage a Tank Hammer alone on a Waaagh! turn on average kicks out 2 dev wounds at Damage 3 by itself, you add a Bomb Squig and thats 8MWs. Thats Beastboss territory. Will I take them? No, I run Dreadmob where Tankbustas really shine, but I can see them as a common pick for Warhorde.
Also the Pulsa Rokkit is probably the better pick for Bustas. +1 Str and AP on the units (including attached Big Meks) ranged weapons once per game is better than d3 extra blast shots. Str 10 is a big break point for many vehicles and monster, and AP 3 Rokkit (especially with Ignore Cover) puts most tanks on a 6+ save, or 5+ if they are rocking a 2+ save. Thats way more value than an extra Rokkit Launcha.
Going to have to burst your bubble a bit, i am fairly aware of those short comings from nobz, all you are saying is true.. this is something some of you were discussing a while back but i choose not to intervene because the answer has already been provided multiple times:
Use the right tool for the right job, there are multiple units that can deal with high T which have proven themselves, from beast boss with beast snagas, warp tower from kill rig, ghaz aura during waggh and ghaz himself, mek gun with S12, even dread claws are S12, my favorite is to just pack 5 meganobz with double killsaw with a warboss inside a truck, by all means, try doge that with out screening.. You have gorkas and morkas claw and if you really want to go dread wagghh there is plenty of strats there to deal with high T.
Nobz aren't a answer to high T, if you have to do that, that's because your desperate and there aren't better targets. But their really useful against elite infantry, chaff and a very big threat against characters(funny because you agree with me on this), you can also provide them with tools like i mentioned before, where they can reach S11 during waggh or lethals (ever seen 10 nobz + boss with lethals and sustained with crits on 5? I can tell you i deleted more then 400 points that turn). Unless i see a meta of heavy vehicle, where every one is T12 i will not consider them much. What i do see is bricks of elite units where claws are lot more useful, i see one or another tough vehicle where my beast boss tags them and my meganobz just go make friends.
Frankly, i am more concerned with screens and shooting, have you ever fought an IG or DG? God DG are a pain in the ass to deal with melee and wreckas have nothing into that match! Has for the pulsa rokkit, pretty sure you can't use it inside trucks. My idea is to use tankbustas inside the truks as chaff clear and potentially pop them out if a target of opportunity presents itself. They will probably never leave the trucks, and if they do it's to pop double squig shoot and run back in if they don't die.. so i kinda value the extra rocket for more shots, their going to replace flashgitz in my lists, the ladz have been under performing.
Anyway i hate talking of hypothetical perfect situations, those are rare, the situations that you mention are not common, and if you walked into those, is because mistakes were made. I will wait and see where the wreckas land but i am not convinced. For all i know, meta might shift to high T, but i been here since the start and i haven't seen any signs yet.
Also it sounds like your local is heavy on vehicles, mine is shooting heavy... high T is the least of my problems lol.
I dont know how you think you are bursting my bubble when I literally do not advocate for using Nobz for tank busting, I play Dreadmob mostly and primarily use Kans, Nauts and Mek led MANz for that role, not Nobz. You must be getting me confused with other people in this forum because I barely frequent this website anymore. Nobz havent been tank killers since vehicles went through the stratosphere in toughness and we were robbed of our historical Str 10 Klaws outside of our Waaagh! turns. Unless im being dumb and blind there is zero ways to make Nobz Str 11 this edition. They are base Str 9 with Klaws, the Waaagh! makes them Str 10. BullyBoyz or Warhorde doesnt have a single thing that increases their weapon strength further. Warbosses, Meks of all kinds, Pain and Weirdboyz do not increase the strength characteristic of their attached unit. Greentide and Kult of Speed definitely do not and Dreadwaaagh's only stratagem that does applies only to Walkers which no matter how big and stompy Nobz are or think they are, they are not that keyword. Id be surprised if Da Big Hunt did, I dont care for that detachment. Actually there is 1 way which I forgot, a Kill Rig's power on a 2+. Are Kill Rigs on the rise? Its pretty god awful in melee and not all that tough. The only way for Nobz to get Lethal is through Ghazghkull (235pts + bodyguard if you bother to try protect him) or attaching a Dreadwaaagh Mek which looses them Da Boss' Ladz ability or rolling a 6 on a Kill Rig... reliable eh. To get Crit 5s it has to be Warhorde, thus you are locked in with the Big man himself, Ghaz. For the record the Ammo Runt only gives Lethal on ranged attacks so lets rule that out right now. So we are talking a whopping 515pts points before a Trukk to get 10 Nobz with a Warboss and Ghaz hoofing it on foot to give them Lethal hits in addition to the detachment ability. Thats 3 units of Breakas with change left over (420pts), who have 6-9 Tank Hammer attacks and 6 Bomb Squigs just to kickstart it.
Lets move on to the next point, the alternatives. Deff Dreads arent great. Lets be real. 120pts nets you 8 Str 13 attacks on the Waaagh!, into a lowly Rhino it does a whooping 9 damage with Lethal or Sustained (trust me I know this pain, I play Deathguard, Sisters and World Eaters routinely). Thats sad. Against any tank with a 2+ save it goes to 6 damage. Make it T12 like a Land Raider and it does 3 damage. It isnt a vehicle/monster killer. Hell mine struggle to kill a squad of Plague Marines without getting lifted in the process. The Kill Rig aint all that reliable, sure it auto hits but its D3 shots, D6 damage and doesnt ignore cover, its a casino cannon. Again against a Rhino it averages 7 damage. Weve identified 2 Ork units that cannot pick up the most basic and universal of dedicated transports. The Beastboss is fine, 6 MWs on average is pretty good, but its the same as a Tank Hammer on a Waaagh! turn so its no longer unique to him, they dont even have to charge and can pop a fight on death in Warhorde. I use MANz quite a lot which im sure all of us do, they have a pretty inherit problem which is their to hit value and their volume of attacks, they are also damage 2, Just like as with Nobz they are pretty susceptible to debuffs, their key benefit that sets them apart is AP3. I dont run double Killsaws, I do Klaw and Saw but thats because often times they dont get to pick where they fight all to well and sometimes they have to brute force their way out of situations.
The problem we have identified is Orkz arent great at killing high toughness units as a faction. We are moving more and more into a vehicle meta. My group consists of Guard, Tau, Nids (crusher stampede) Tsons (Magnus and Predators), DG (Mortarion and Wardogs), WE (Angron and Predators), Votann, all colours of Marines (Usually Lancers and Repulsors), Knights, Sisters (who luckily have now died a death) and Necrons (Doomsday). Every single one of them runs multiple T10 or higher vehicles/monsters. Orkz since their dawn of time have always had issues being shot off the board that isnt something new, this is the only edition I remember where we genuinely struggle to flip tanks, even something as crappy as a Rhino.
Whatever Nobz do, Breakas also do, just on a more condensed scale whilst also teching up into the holes we have already in our army. They are "tool for a job". Are they too expensive? Thats what the community has to figure out with games. 6 Nobz would be 126pts, is 2 Bomb Squigs and Anti whatever worth that extra 14pts (or 35pts between the two actual units). Probably. Will I use them? No, not at the moment. I play Dreadwaaagh! and Tankbustas will rock people socks. If I were to play Warhorde again id be sure to slot Breakas into my list. But I play against a lot of armies that throw out modifiers to statlines and play defensive strats. When you see Nobz bounce off a Redemptor... yeah dont feel too hot.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
P.S I never suggested using the Pulsa from a Trukk, Tankbustas do all their work disembarked within 12". Staying embarked looses them way too much; More Dakka, Tank Hunters, Pulsa Rokkit, Bomb Squigs and Bigger Shellz.
I dont know how you think you are bursting my bubble when I literally do not advocate for using Nobz for tank busting, I play Dreadmob mostly and primarily use Kans, Nauts and Mek led MANz for that role, not Nobz. You must be getting me confused with other people in this forum because I barely frequent this website anymore. Nobz havent been tank killers since vehicles went through the stratosphere in toughness and we were robbed of our historical Str 10 Klaws outside of our Waaagh! turns. Unless im being dumb and blind there is zero ways to make Nobz Str 11 this edition. They are base Str 9 with Klaws, the Waaagh! makes them Str 10. BullyBoyz or Warhorde doesnt have a single thing that increases their weapon strength further. Warbosses, Meks of all kinds, Pain and Weirdboyz do not increase the strength characteristic of their attached unit. Greentide and Kult of Speed definitely do not and Dreadwaaagh's only stratagem that does applies only to Walkers which no matter how big and stompy Nobz are or think they are, they are not that keyword. Id be surprised if Da Big Hunt did, I dont care for that detachment. Actually there is 1 way which I forgot, a Kill Rig's power on a 2+. Are Kill Rigs on the rise? Its pretty god awful in melee and not all that tough. The only way for Nobz to get Lethal is through Ghazghkull (235pts + bodyguard if you bother to try protect him) or attaching a Dreadwaaagh Mek which looses them Da Boss' Ladz ability or rolling a 6 on a Kill Rig... reliable eh. To get Crit 5s it has to be Warhorde, thus you are locked in with the Big man himself, Ghaz. For the record the Ammo Runt only gives Lethal on ranged attacks so lets rule that out right now. So we are talking a whopping 515pts points before a Trukk to get 10 Nobz with a Warboss and Ghaz hoofing it on foot to give them Lethal hits in addition to the detachment ability. Thats 3 units of Breakas with change left over (420pts), who have 6-9 Tank Hammer attacks and 6 Bomb Squigs just to kickstart it.
Lets move on to the next point, the alternatives. Deff Dreads arent great. Lets be real. 120pts nets you 8 Str 13 attacks on the Waaagh!, into a lowly Rhino it does a whooping 9 damage with Lethal or Sustained (trust me I know this pain, I play Deathguard, Sisters and World Eaters routinely). Thats sad. Against any tank with a 2+ save it goes to 6 damage. Make it T12 like a Land Raider and it does 3 damage. It isnt a vehicle/monster killer. Hell mine struggle to kill a squad of Plague Marines without getting lifted in the process. The Kill Rig aint all that reliable, sure it auto hits but its D3 shots, D6 damage and doesnt ignore cover, its a casino cannon. Again against a Rhino it averages 7 damage. Weve identified 2 Ork units that cannot pick up the most basic and universal of dedicated transports. The Beastboss is fine, 6 MWs on average is pretty good, but its the same as a Tank Hammer on a Waaagh! turn so its no longer unique to him, they dont even have to charge and can pop a fight on death in Warhorde. I use MANz quite a lot which im sure all of us do, they have a pretty inherit problem which is their to hit value and their volume of attacks, they are also damage 2, Just like as with Nobz they are pretty susceptible to debuffs, their key benefit that sets them apart is AP3. I dont run double Killsaws, I do Klaw and Saw but thats because often times they dont get to pick where they fight all to well and sometimes they have to brute force their way out of situations.
The problem we have identified is Orkz arent great at killing high toughness units as a faction. We are moving more and more into a vehicle meta. My group consists of Guard, Tau, Nids (crusher stampede) Tsons (Magnus and Predators), DG (Mortarion and Wardogs), WE (Angron and Predators), Votann, all colours of Marines (Usually Lancers and Repulsors), Knights, Sisters (who luckily have now died a death) and Necrons (Doomsday). Every single one of them runs multiple T10 or higher vehicles/monsters. Orkz since their dawn of time have always had issues being shot off the board that isnt something new, this is the only edition I remember where we genuinely struggle to flip tanks, even something as crappy as a Rhino.
Whatever Nobz do, Breakas also do, just on a more condensed scale whilst also teching up into the holes we have already in our army. They are "tool for a job". Are they too expensive? Thats what the community has to figure out with games. 6 Nobz would be 126pts, is 2 Bomb Squigs and Anti whatever worth that extra 14pts (or 35pts between the two actual units). Probably. Will I use them? No, not at the moment. I play Dreadwaaagh! and Tankbustas will rock people socks. If I were to play Warhorde again id be sure to slot Breakas into my list. But I play against a lot of armies that throw out modifiers to statlines and play defensive strats. When you see Nobz bounce off a Redemptor... yeah dont feel too hot.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
P.S I never suggested using the Pulsa from a Trukk, Tankbustas do all their work disembarked within 12". Staying embarked looses them way too much; More Dakka, Tank Hunters, Pulsa Rokkit, Bomb Squigs and Bigger Shellz.
Kill rig ability rolls a dice, adds S1+ and lethal on 6 during the fight phase, so yes Nobz can reach 11S. You should stick around we had this discussion long ago
I said most of them are proven, they are options, and yeah deff dread aint good, its still an option, but you can also fill it with rockits punch lethals add strat for bigger shells and full rerolls?Is it worth it? Maybe, up to you. But that does not invalidate it as tool, same with warp tower, it force saves, forcing damage. I am warhorde most of the time, suffice to say i generally saturate hard targets with right profile, i would use 2 warp towers in a single target.
I don't bother with claw on meganobz, they are there to kill high T, also with Ghaz, i walk him with the ladz, i rather have twin linked. Oh btw your going to have the same issue with wreckas into DG, have fun hitting on 5, i generally just drop a strat and make 5 crit. It's irrelevant in end, most DG i saw are building death shroud and elites, so more often then not you will be on 5 and either 4 or 5 into elites. I am not even seeing what your saying in GT.Like i mentioned your meta is heavy tanks so wreckas should work but the minute the meta goes elite which btw that's what i see, you may lack tools. Although, dread waagh is shooting so it might be different into elites.
tanbustas outside trucks against melee in a good terrain layout is just a unit waiting to get charged.. you need to screen it, currently don't have enough for that with out taking somewhere else, besides in my army that's not their role, you can't daka if their dead, it's just waiting to be sniped. Only time i had a issue with high T was at start of edition when i did not know much of the armies and we were all learning.
Honestly if your issue is vehicles just go smash guns from mek gun, put a SAG and job done. 3d3+3 with blast and more important AP-3 plus the SAG. Burn a +1w strat and burn wounds 48' range. He does not come out? Great my grots take the field. I don't even know why wreckas are so important for you in dread waaghh you have plenty of ranged tools for the job. Warhorde depends a bit more, if the GT and meta get's tank heavy then yeah it's a good choice, on the other hand the meta has been mostly elite and wreckas become more secondary, i still think their too expensive seeing as their specialized into a single role, and we already have great tools that can double down into other roles.
I think your just laser focused on that anti-4, i was too with squig hogs, had to realize that was not their role. Anyway i am more excited for tankbustas. But hey maybe i am wrong, prove us by using wrekas on a GT, that will show us, so far i don't see a good case for them.
I just feel like the melee specialized can opener role was already played by dual killsaw meganobz.
I'm really not entirely convinced that that these are a better value for that specialized role of punching tanks in close quarters.
Tankbustas definitely fill a clear niche however, and are vastly improved over their prior iteration, if for no other reason than that they have nob statlines. And of course the datasheet this edition was clearly meant as a placeholder.
I don't like 2 attacks on a non-nob unit that can't synergize with Bully Boyz. It's a 50% damage reduction if you don't have waaagh. The defensive stats are also just flat out garbage compared to meganobz, especially in a bully boyz detachment. I also think that Meganobz are going to ultimately be more versatile even with dual killsaws, because they're not relying on anti to deal damage, it's just raw stats. That ridiculous strength and AP combined with the reroll to wound is still going to mean something even against infantry.
TedNugent wrote: I just feel like the melee specialized can opener role was already played by dual killsaw meganobz.
I'm really not entirely convinced that that these are a better value for that specialized role of punching tanks in close quarters.
Tankbustas definitely fill a clear niche however, and are vastly improved over their prior iteration, if for no other reason than that they have nob statlines. And of course the datasheet this edition was clearly meant as a placeholder.
I don't like 2 attacks on a non-nob unit that can't synergize with Bully Boyz. It's a 50% damage reduction if you don't have waaagh. The defensive stats are also just flat out garbage compared to meganobz, especially in a bully boyz detachment. I also think that Meganobz are going to ultimately be more versatile even with dual killsaws, because they're not relying on anti to deal damage, it's just raw stats. That ridiculous strength and AP combined with the reroll to wound is still going to mean something even against infantry.
Oh yeah i keep forgetting the defensive profile from meganobz, FNP5 sv2 and 3w.. yeah well i kinda agree with you.
Hey deffrekka you might be too focused on the deeps, melee these days need to survive a bit.
Well I 'm little sad dedicated antitank units works with S9 weapons tha you can once per game or something like this push to 10. In some extra combo combinations maybe 11.
Rhinos are T9
Warghogs are T10
Bloody LRBT is T11
And Knights are T12
Tank opening units that wounds on 5+ againts most of the targets in most of the situations is pretty pathetic.
I like tankbustas because I like rokits. Bum bum! Great! And It is good, they are Nobz. As a boyz they were too squishi.
But as I said week ago, our rokkits needs to be S11 or anti4...
Honestly, I 'm not conviced with the whole anti4 except the Beast Snagga space. It makes me sence on a “lore setting” tool but hey, we speak about rokkits and huge hammers. These should be simple S11 because they make a big boom and I don' t see a reason, why the bikers or big chars should be protected…
Automatically Appended Next Post: But I ' m very happy we have this change on Tankbustas and new unit of Breaka Boyz. It is a good way to go.
The rest is just a never ending balancing of stats and price.
I might have been wrong on the 3+, but neither tank bustas nor breakas will ever wound those units on 5+ either
Rhino will be 3+, 2+ with pulsa rokkit
Warhogs 4+, 3+ with pulsa rokkit
LRBT are 4+, and pulsa might still be worth to reduce those 2+ saves to 5+
Knights are 4+ and pulsa rokkit does nothing
Full math for pulsa rokkit at 12":
12 shots, 6 hits
Rhino: 5 wounds, ~4 unsaved for 12 damage +4 MW Warhog: 4 wounds, 2.66 unsaved for 6-9 damage +4MW
LRBT/Knight: 3 wounds, 2 unsaved for 6 damage +4MW
They also got their grenade keyword back, so you could throw those as well.
Add a SAG and the unit has an very good chance of outright killing a LRBT after jumping out of a trukk, there isn't really any other ork unit which can do that for 185 points.
If tankbustas would have received S11 rokkits, that would definitely have replaced the +1 to wound and the pulsa rokkit buff. Which would have made them a lot worse against every single one of those targets.
And let's be real, once you've shot such a unit once, most tankbustas will be dead the next time you have a chance to shoot them again.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Math on breakas (all smash hammers):
12 attacks, 8 hits
Rhino: 4 wounds, 2.66 unsaved for 6-9 damage
Warhog: 4 wounds, 2.66 unsaved for 6-9 damage
LRBT: 4 wounds, 2 unsaved for 6 damage
Knight: 4 wounds, 2.66 unsaved for 6-9 damage
lead by warboss:
12 attacks, 10 hits
Rhino: 5 wounds, 3.33 unsaved for 9-12 damage
Warhog: 5 wounds, 2.66 unsaved for 9-12 damage
LRBT: 5 wounds, 3.33 unsaved for 6-9 damage
Knight: 5 wounds, 3.33 unsaved for 9-12 damage
Waaagh! turn:
18 attacks, 12 hits
Rhino: 6 wounds, 4 unsaved for 12 damage
Warhog: 6 wounds, 4 unsaved for 12 damage
LRBT: 6 wounds, 3 unsaved for 9 damage
Knight: 6 wounds, 4 unsaved for 12 damage
Waagh! turn lead by warboss:
18 attacks, 15 hits
Rhino: 7.5 wounds, 5 unsaved for 15 damage
Warhog: 7.5 wounds, 5 unsaved for 15 damage
LRBT: 7.5 wounds, 3.75 unsaved for 9-12 damage
Knight: 7.5 wounds, 5 unsaved for 15 damage
So, if you run them, better make sure they are in the right spot when you call your Waaagh!. Adding a warboss is probably not a waste of points as it adds roughly 50% damage before even considering its own attacks. 225 is a steep price for such a unit though, can't imagine running them outside of a detachment that provides direct buffs to them like bully boyz or wartribe.
Comparison smashhammer to knucklebustas:
Knugglebustas:
5 attacks, 3.33 hits, 2.5 wounds, 1.25 damage vs 3+, 0.83 dmg vs 2+
Smashhammer:
2 attacks, 1.33 hits, 0.66 wounds, 1.33 damage vs 3+, 1 dmg vs 2
Knugglebustas with Waaagh!:
6 attacks, 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1.5 damage vs 3+, 1 dmg vs 2+
Smashhammer with Waaagh!:
3 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound, 2 damage vs 3+, 1.5 dmg vs 2+
So you lose some damage, but not as much as you might think. Essentially you are dropping half a point of damage to make it harder to tarpit the unit.
The knucklebustas definitely just look like an anti-tarpit measure. They don't seem to do much else.
Tankbustas might be fighting with Flash Gitz to be the best generalist ranged unit.
5d3 shots + blast + 2 Rokkit pistols is a lot of potential shots into a crowd and it's very well statted to splat most generic infantry.
Flash Gitz do better into crowds, but the Bustas will do better into hard targets. Likely taking two units of each will be a really solid Dakka core for shooting lists.
Side note; I would have loved for Bustas/Breakas to be more likely to trigger deadly demise of things they kill. It would probably never help you win a game but it would be good fun. Sad that neither unit got a Tankbusta Bombs ability, but oh well.
They only have 2 attacks without the waaagh, so my quick math would be, in a vacuum, they deal 9 damage to a rhino. would on average, kill a rhino if they also dealt 1 damage with the squig bomb.
It would go a bit beyond average if you factor in sustained hits from war horde if thats your thing. They are not nobz despite having nob profiles, making them not amazing for bully boys as alternatives, and they are generally expensive. You do get 1 more body though which is good.
My gripe with them is that they only have 2 attacks standard, because it means you will get very little value out of them outside of the waaagh. When you only just barely kill a weak transport with a 140 point unit, thats not great. There isnt much leeway to make a bad roll before you fail to kill your target. For 140 points id expect them to have 3 attacks, but i also see why 4 attacks per model with damage 3 would be too much. They cant kill 10 guardsmen (or probably wont at least) but they can easily wreck a few terminators, making them an odd unit all round, without a waaagh.
I would be more inclined to them just not getting +1 attack on a waaagh, than standard them having only 2 attacks.
Eitherway, too few attacks for too many points makes them.. difficult for me. But they are not useless, they should still do well on a waaagh, although wounding tanks on a +4 makes them swingy. But they look pretty good at killing terminators though. Which gives them a secondary usage that few models in our codex really have. I guess most our units can kill terminators, but we have little damage 3. I would have to check them out in a few games to see how well they perform. 6 breaka boys and a warboss would be what, 215 points? The same as 10 Nobz essentially. But they are 7 models, making them a bit odd for sitting in transports. But i guess that combo can still go with 5 burna boys or flash gitz.
This conversation interest me, what Beardedragon pointed out is something i am more keen. We do have few units with D3 profile and that is something to keep tabs on.
Beardedragon wrote: Eitherway, too few attacks for too many points makes them.. difficult for me. But they are not useless, they should still do well on a waaagh, although wounding tanks on a +4 makes them swingy. But they look pretty good at killing terminators though. Which gives them a secondary usage that few models in our codex really have. I guess most our units can kill terminators, but we have little damage 3. I would have to check them out in a few games to see how well they perform. 6 breaka boys and a warboss would be what, 215 points? The same as 10 Nobz essentially. But they are 7 models, making them a bit odd for sitting in transports. But i guess that combo can still go with 5 burna boys or flash gitz.
You could put 3 units of them in a battlewagon
Otherwise, I agree. Without the Waaagh!, the low number of attacks and average to wound rolls makes them too unreliable, even if you add the warboss. Being able to somewhat reliably crush 3-4 terminators a turn is not something many units in our codex can do though.
You absolutely won't see me running them in a dreadmob though. Not worth wasting a mek on.
Im really confused now. Did Ghaz unit always get lethal hits (+ sustained hits war horde) on a +5 when the waaagh turn is active?
I have NEVER played it that way and i have no idea when this was changed. I just thought he gave +1 to hit and wound, and makari had the lethal hits aura.
But now i see that they score critical hits on a +5 on active waaagh turns. Well i guess ive played a lot of tyranid as of lately but sheesh. I had no idea!
Afrodactyl wrote: The real maths to be done is how they compare against a similar points cost of twin killsaw MANz, with their respective warbosses.
If they have similar damage output, then it will likely come down to whether you want to spend the extra points for the defensive profile of the MANz.
Not sure whether that matters. The biggest price is the cost of opportunity of not having a warboss lead a much more durable unit of nobz IMO. You also can't really match the points, as MA warboss with retinue is either 195 for 3 with puny 6 attacks or 265 for 5 which is a bit expensive. In general, they are completely different units. MANz are for fighting multiple times and soaking fire, while breakas will smash something and then start bleeding models fast. Brawlers vs assassins in MOBA terms.
Just for the sake of it: 5 Dual Killsaws, Waagh! turn lead by warboss: 15 attacks, 10 hits Rhino: 8.88 wounds, 7.41 unsaved for 14-16 damage Warhog: 8.88 wounds, 7.41 unsaved for 14-16 damage LRBT: 8.88 wounds, 5.93 unsaved for ~12 damage Warhog: 8.88 wounds, 7.41 unsaved for 14-16 damage
In other words - same damage, but you pay about 50 points for that extra durability and less mobility.
I agree that giving them a Mek probably isn't worthwhile when Warbosses and Weirdboys exist.
Nah, that's not how building a dreadmob works. Essentially you have a certain number of big meks and meks you can use to upgrade units into dread mobbers. At 1000 points the sweet point seems to be 3, at 2000 it's 5-6 and so on. Bring more meks and your army gets blown off the table, bring too little and you are either stuck with mediocre walkers or might just be better off using the wartribe.
Essentially the breakers are competing with MANz, boyz, lootas and the new tank bustas for those precious meks, and I don't see a good reason why I should be giving one to them. It's the one detachment that doesn't struggle putting high damage attacks into things.
I do see breakas replacing squighogs in my warhorde lists though. They serve a very similar role, but they can move through terrain and have a decent chance to succeed deep strike charges with weird boy or Ufthak.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In case you were wondering like me, this is how you upgrade an existing unit of metal tankbustas to be legal again:
1) Replace tankhammer with random kitbashed tankbusta from your collection. Any proppa ork has some. 2) If you are deeply worried about WYSIWYG get your rokkit pistol git a bosspole and some other snazzy upgrades. That or, just break off his arms and put them on a nob from the nobz box 3) In step 8 of the instructions, build a tankbusta with magnetized rokkit rack/pulsa rokkit 4) In step 9 decide whether you want to be stuck with a smash hammer or knucklbustas for all eternity. Feth magnetizing that model. Lots) In step 10 build a breaka boy with smashhammer - you already got a tankhammer! Lots) build the nob and the remaining gits as breakas with smashhammers
Done, you now have a unit of tankbustas and breakas, each with 2 bomb squigs.
Afrodactyl wrote: The real maths to be done is how they compare against a similar points cost of twin killsaw MANz, with their respective warbosses.
If they have similar damage output, then it will likely come down to whether you want to spend the extra points for the defensive profile of the MANz.
I agree that giving them a Mek probably isn't worthwhile when Warbosses and Weirdboys exist.
Doing some quick and dirty maths it looks like Breaka Boyz + Boss out punch (point for point) both PK Nobz + Boss and twin saw Meganobz + Boss when you are:
1. Punching any 3W models with T6 or less
2. Punching vehicles/monsters of at least T10
If there are good invul saves involved, the gap gets substantially bigger in BB's favour (tankhammer, bomb squig, grenades). If there are good FNP saves or damage reduction rules, it's more of a toss up. The Bosses damage output and options for mortal wounds on top seems like enough of a leveller that throwing them into a sub optimal target isn't that big of a deal.
I think the decision to run these guys or not is going to come down to more than damage, they are an awkward sized unit for putting in a Trukk, the least durable of the 3 units being looked at, and Nobz are always going to be compelling as they are cheaper.
Jidmah wrote: They also have two wounds each and a 4+ save. No more deleting them with half-assed shooting.
Tank bustas are just great:
- 5 rokkits instead of 3
- still got 2 bomb squigs
- option to have a 6th rokkit or a direly needed once per game strength and AP buff
- rokkit pistols now have proper rokkit strength, damage and AP - mandatory tankhammer gone, but the nob can trade one pistol for a much better smashhammer
- can be joined by big meks, which then gives then re-rolls to hit and the mek keyword while the mek benefits from pulsa rokkit and +1 to hit and wound. They are too expensive to babysit a SAG, but a KMB mek will probably work really well
- They only take up 6 slots in a transport, you could have 12d3 shots from a single trukk. Too bad the BW's firing deck was nerfed.
Breakas are nice, but I feel like 10+5 attacks at AP2/1 isn't as killy as it needs to be. Outside of the Waaagh! they might bounce off the very units they are supposed to kill. That said, the weird boy is probably the best leader for them. Da Jump synergizes well with their build-in re-rolls to charge.
I’m late to the party here but I agree the breakas just don’t hit as well as they need and I can only see them used in a dreadmob detachment as a dedicated anti vehicle/monster unit with ap-4/-3. And even that is suspect. Bottom line breakas are 10pts overpriced and knucklebustas need -2ap
New tankbustas are the best help orks got with these changes. Poor bullyboys took multi hits with warboss points and hulking brutes nerf, but Waagh changes help for turn 2 games. Was actually hoping for help with buggies, or slight point drops for squig riders or ability change to killakans or bringing back the reroll 1 to armor saves in greentide. But maybe a new detachment can change things up bloodaxe theme?
Sorry Jidmah, I shouldn't have said a comparable amount of points, I should have said models. What I wanted to know was their damage output relative to Killsaw MANz and whether the extra points spent on the MANz for their durability was likely to be a deciding factor.
Which it seems like it is. Breakas are probably just going to be the budget MANz alternative, taken when you just need something big to die rather than putting a unit that can soak punishment as well.
I'm also a little ignorant when it comes to Dread Mob (I've barely looked at the detachment because I predominantly play Big Hunt or War Horde with mostly Snaggas) and didn't really consider it for Breakas. I see the obvious benefits for Tankbustas in that detachment, but my brain immediately tied Breakas to War Horde for more potential attacks.
My two teeth, this is in the contest of "Bully Boyz", and I played them already.
Breaka are good for many reason: they are the only source of D3 that we have, they say hi! to c'tan; I use them as substitute to nobz, 5x nobz+warboss 180p, while 6x breaka+warboss 215p; they are 7 so you can still taxi along 5x burna/flash gitz; both nobz and breaka are a missile unit, but breaka smash better what they need to smash and they had a wider variety of possible targets.
Both smash standard marine. There is no istance, which I can think of, where nobz are better. Nobz have 20x PKatk hitting on 3+ and wounding T5< on 2+, Breaka are 18x hammer atk, of which 3 are dev wounds, hitting on 2+ and wounding on 3+.
What I care is TEQ / T6 gravis like. Against T6 both wound on 3+ but breaka boyz are D3.
Against T10 (most light tank), T11 (vindicator), T12 (BWs, land raiders) nobz are mostly useless, they must either oneshot their target or they are dead next turn anyway. Instead, breaka can break their way through tough vehicles (18 atk 2+ to hit, 4+ to wounds, 4+ to save, D3 -> 10+ wounds, the 9x PKatks of the warboss AND the bomb squig AND the grenade can easily make it to 16).
I repeat this is in the contest of "Bully Boyz" where I go around with 5x trukks + tellyporta + 3x megaboss with 5/6 MANZ + 3x warboss with 6x breaka boyz + various scoring units.
gungo wrote: I can only see them used in a dreadmob detachment as a dedicated anti vehicle/monster unit with ap-4/-3. And even that is suspect. Bottom line breakas are 10pts overpriced and knucklebustas need -2ap
Dreadmob neither needs them for their melee profile (they got nauts, dreads and kanz), nor does da button do anything for breakas. The AP buff does not help you get past high armor saves, it merely adds an unsaved wounds or two to the final result. It will never make a unit that's bad at piercing armor good at amor. I've shot enough dreadmob lootas at LRBT to learn that lesson
New tankbustas are the best help orks got with these changes. Poor bullyboys took multi hits with warboss points and hulking brutes nerf, but Waagh changes help for turn 2 games. Was actually hoping for help with buggies, or slight point drops for squig riders or ability change to killakans or bringing back the reroll 1 to armor saves in greentide. But maybe a new detachment can change things up bloodaxe theme?
I think they are focusing on getting the detachments that do work as intended right first, like warhorde and bully boyz. Tackling internal balance issues is a lower priority and only gets addressed if external balance is unproblematic. And even then, they reduce outliers first before raising underperformers. You can observe similar patterns for other armies.
Green tide is a separate issue - other players almost unanimously gave the feedback that they hated playing against green tide. Killing off the detachment was not a balance decision, much like the stompa sitting at 800 points isn't either. It's a soft-ban from competitive play and I expect neither to change any time soon.
Speaking of Green Tide, is it still somewhat viable in the current meta? I haven't heard from it much after it got the smack down in the last balance update, I'm planning to try it in the new Grotmas A-bomb-inable Snowman Christmas Scenario so it's not a super competitive context, but I wanted to see if the new tankbustas would be usable in that detachment since it feels like it addresses the lack of anti-tank tech that it's in that army archetype.
I've seen Green Tide show up in a few of the weekend reports on the WarhammerCompetitive subreddit. It's not winning anything these days, but seems to be giving a good showing and popping up in the top tables every now and then.
It exists mostly as a stat-check list, and currently there seems to be a good amount of lists that can either cripple Green Tide through raw damage, or cripple it through movement and tarpit our units before we can get our points in.
A) MA Big mek can be the Leader of Flashgitz with the benefits =
10 Flashgitz with 4++ to survive, +1 to hit with the full rerolls on hit.
You can give them Stealth and cover in exchange for passing Leadership test or lost D3MW.
And you can take three of them and do it on all of them in a single turn
This detach is absolute gold, well to me at least.
It's so orky it must be green. Have to throw my claw at the writer's. Impressed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: lol big mek in mega armour with flash gitz on reserve, ammo run(lethals), 4++ shooting, give it +1 to hit, recover 1 bodyguard, full rerolls.
Extra bonus, put them in reserve with 2 other tankbustas xD
Automatically Appended Next Post: i think i can reach S12 with nobz, defo going to try this.
Definitely an interesting detatchment that could be played in a multitude of ways.
I wanna be the grinch for a second and actually complain about something. I wanna complain that our breaka boys and tankbustas come in units of 6 rather than 5. Which i know is stupid i guess because you get more models, but it just doesnt add up for any transports properly. Not if you want characters with them, which you probably would want. I guess it makes sense if you just want 6 tankbustas and 5 what ever else. But you cant add any characters.
I guess you can make alternative swat trukks by excluding characters though.
Annoyingly the battlewagon only has firing deck 11 too, which is even lower than the trukks 12, for reasons unknown.
Anyway thats all that really bugs me with the new units. The new detatchment however looks great and a lot of fun. Im currently unsure if they will keep the "all warboss" keyword for leading a unit of kommandos, or if they will reduce it to warboss models with infantry keyword only. Because it seems kinda janky to advance flat 6 for kommandos always, with a wartrike leading them. Those are some speedy kommandos indeed. Well that and the wartrike base is rather long, so you can frogleap him ahead to get even further than the 12 inches the kommandos could move normally.
Currently im loading my trukks with tankbustas and shokk attack guns, because i lack Lootas. That and 1 big mek in mega armor with KFF with 10 flash gitz. But i wonder whats our best shooting unit would be for this detatchment (outside of "Mek Kaptain" enhancement for like 10 flash gitz or what ever shooting unit you want).
Thoughts (not going to repeat Tomsug's great ideas)
- one order is guaranteed to succeed, two orders have a 27.77% failure chance on a warboss and a 41.66% failure chance on meks, and there is no way to re-roll it outside of crusade. You should only double up on taktiks if you are desperate. So when triggering two buffs, always assume that you are going to take d3 MW.
- MA leaders do not increase a unit's toughness - You can give orders right after disembarking or arriving from reserves, but not when using rapid ingress.
- Badrukk is back, except he now can wear MA, a KFF and brings back a flash git every turn. You think 285 points is too expensive for this? Sorry, can't hear you over all that dakka. - Some of you gitz can relive the glory times of 5th by infiltrating a MA warboss with kommandoz.
- A unit of kommadoz lead by a beastboss can ride in a kill rig or hunta rig. Make of that what you want. I was wrong. See below.
- I think kommandoz gain a lot from being lead by a regular warboss, but I'm not sure it's the best place to put a warboss. Nobz and breaka boyz are just much better units...
- A Wartrike can buff its unit of warbikers with +1 to ranged hit and/or stealth and cover, which might be just enough to make them viable.
- Stealthy squighogs seem like a huge pain in the rear for opponents.
- Both warbikers and hogs benefit greatly from the fall back, shoot&charge stratagem.
- While heavy does not stack, SAG and lootas can still use Shoota Drills to move and shoot at full power or to get through a -1 to hit unit
- Probably obvious, but Thrakka can give orders.
- From my experience with crusade, I can tell you that shoota boyz lead a big mek with +1 to hit is not something to be taken lightly.
- Tankbustas might only have use for the stealth/cover taktiks, but their leader can still buff a nearby unit.
- The stratagems can easily turn the tide of a game if applied correctly. You absolutely need two units of gretchin to have enough CP.
- Having sustained and lethal hits available as a stratagem allows you to bring a hammer unit or two, but your army probably needs to be a bit more shooting oriented than bully boyz or warhorde. Finding out the right mix of units will take some iterations.
- While I could field 6 units of storm boyz now, I see no reason why I should. The detachment doesn't do a whole lot for them, so I see no use to bring them outside of 1 or 2 for action monkey things. When not playing competitive missions, I'd probably not bring them at all unless Zagstrukk gets taken for a spin.
- Not too sure on the koptas part. They cannot benefit from the two orders which help them most, as they are neither infantry nor mounted
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beardedragon wrote: Annoyingly the battlewagon only has firing deck 11 too, which is even lower than the trukks 12, for reasons unknown.
One of my opponents probably has complained to GW about me setting his units on fire with 16 burnas and 4 KMB from a wagon
By adding the mek buff, you could to some pretty stupid things with a wagon, and it would absolutely have broken the new tankbustas.
Currently im loading my trukks with tankbustas and shokk attack guns, because i lack Lootas. That and 1 big mek in mega armor with KFF with 10 flash gitz. But i wonder whats our best shooting unit would be for this detatchment (outside of "Mek Kaptain" enhancement for like 10 flash gitz or what ever shooting unit you want).
Same as always - lootas or tankbustas with SAG and maybe shoota boyz with KMB mek or warbikers with wartrike. Mek guns and kill rigs are good in any detachment. Everything else is made of paper or doesn't shoot well enough.
Jidmah wrote: I love everything about that detachment.
Thoughts (not going to repeat Tomsug's great ideas) - one order is guaranteed to succeed, two orders have a 27.77% failure chance on a warboss and a 41.66% failure chance on meks, and there is no way to re-roll it outside of crusade. You should only double up on taktiks if you are desperate. - MA leaders do not increase a unit's toughness - You can give orders right after disembarking or arriving from reserves, but not when using rapid ingress. - Badrukk is back, except he now can wear MA, a KFF and brings back a flash git every turn. You think 285 points is too expensive for this? Sorry, can't hear you over all that dakka. - Some of you gitz can relive the glory times of 5th by infiltrating a MA warboss with kommandoz. - A unit of kommadoz lead by a beastboss can ride in a kill rig or hunta rig. Make of that what you want. - I think kommandoz gain a lot from being lead by a regular warboss, but I'm not sure it's the best place to put a warboss. Nobz and breaka boyz are just much better units... - A Wartrike can buff its unit of warbikers with +1 to ranged hit and/or stealth and cover, which might be just enough to make them viable. - Stealthy squighogs seem like a huge pain in the rear for opponents. - Both warbikers and hogs benefit greatly from the fall back, shoot&charge stratagem. - While heavy does not stack, SAG and lootas can still use Shoota Drills to move and shoot at full power or to get through a -1 to hit unit - Probably obvious, but Thrakka can give orders. - From my experience with crusade, I can tell you that shoota boyz lead a big mek with +1 to hit is not something to be taken lightly. - Tankbustas might only have use for the stealth/cover taktiks, but their leader can still buff a nearby unit. - The stratagems can easily turn the tide of a game if applied correctly. You absolutely need two units of gretchin to have enough CP. - Having sustained and lethal hits available as a stratagem allows you to bring a hammer unit or two, but your army probably needs to be a bit more shooting oriented than bully boyz or warhorde. Finding out the right mix of units will take some iterations. - While I could field 6 units of storm boyz now, I see no reason why I should. The detachment doesn't do a whole lot for them, so I see no use to bring them outside of 1 or 2 for action monkey things. When not playing competitive missions, I'd probably not bring them at all unless Zagstrukk gets taken for a spin. - Not too sure on the koptas part. They cannot benefit from the two orders which help them most, as they are neither infantry nor mounted
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beardedragon wrote: Annoyingly the battlewagon only has firing deck 11 too, which is even lower than the trukks 12, for reasons unknown.
One of my opponents probably has complained to GW about me setting his units on fire with 16 burnas and 4 KMB from a wagon
By adding the mek buff, you could to some pretty stupid things with a wagon, and it would absolutely have broken the new tankbustas.
Currently im loading my trukks with tankbustas and shokk attack guns, because i lack Lootas. That and 1 big mek in mega armor with KFF with 10 flash gitz. But i wonder whats our best shooting unit would be for this detatchment (outside of "Mek Kaptain" enhancement for like 10 flash gitz or what ever shooting unit you want).
Same as always - lootas or tankbustas with SAG and maybe shoota boyz with KMB mek or warbikers with wartrike. Mek guns and kill rigs are good in any detachment. Everything else is made of paper or doesn't shoot well enough.
Wait what? Why can kommandos ride a rig just because the beastboss has beastsnagga keyword? They still dont have it. I would assume it works in the same way as why the Wartrike cant go through walls even though he follows kommandos around who are infantry. Because their own individual keywords still matter?
I do think it sounds interesting to add +1 to hit and maybe strength or stealth for warbikers sound interesting with a wartrike. A good block you need to get through which isnt overly too expensive i think. Maybe.
Shooty boys oh boy. Ive never even considered those. Is it good? Dunno. Maybe? I only have like 30 shooty boys out of my 100 boys already, thats how few editions since i started (8th) they have been useful to me. Many are not even painted. The problem i have with shoota boys is their lack of assault keyword on their shootas. it sounds difficult to get to the rapid fire point.
Other good things to be mentioned: If you give 2 orders from a Big mek in mega armor to 10 flash gitz and you fail, you can immiediately ressurect your dead Flash Git as both things happen in the command phase. Making it almost effortless to always have 2 orders on your 10 flash gitz.
I wonder if 3 rigs and 30 beastsnagga boys with beastbosses is a good thing with reroll charges and +1 strength, with +1 additional strength from the rigs. I dont know how many points you have left for shooty units though, and this detatchment seem to definitely favor a lot of shooting and some melee, as otherwise you almost might as well play war horde.
I wonder if having 60 stormboys is a good thing simply for the entire army of 12" advance and charge + potentially reroll charges models you can have. Its not like the enemy can properly screen this out at all. Of course finding 6 characters who are nearby is a problem as they cant have a character following them.
Are you allowed to throw both 2 squig bombs from tankbustas in a row, or do you need to throw one, wait a turn, then throw the last? It simply says you can throw squig bombs twice per game.
Same reason mek guns count as infantry and vehicles for the purposes of anti if i recall correctly when joined by a SAG.
I might be wrong, i think it's in the core rules leaders joining. But i need to go check it out.
Yes you can throw both, it's once per battle if i recall. Your issue isn't the the throwing it's if you advance you can't throw since it requires a normal move.
Beardedragon wrote: Wait what? Why can kommandos ride a rig just because the beastboss has beastsnagga keyword? They still dont have it. I would assume it works in the same way as why the Wartrike cant go through walls even though he follows kommandos around who are infantry. Because their own individual keywords still matter?
You are probably right on this one. Eh.
Shooty boys oh boy. Ive never even considered those. Is it good? Dunno. Maybe? I only have like 30 shooty boys out of my 100 boys already, thats how few editions since i started (8th) they have been useful to me. Many are not even painted. The problem i have with shoota boys is their lack of assault keyword on their shootas. it sounds difficult to get to the rapid fire point.
They way I always ran them in dread mob is that I usually didn't care about lining up rapid fire. Instead of advancing into 9" range, you just start shooting at 18" and then move closer each turn. Their ability to overwatch isn't bad either, plus you get a free pair of rokkits hitting on 4+ as well. The only thing you need to get used to is that they are much worse in combat than choppa boyz.
Other good things to be mentioned: If you give 2 orders from a Big mek in mega armor to 10 flash gitz and you fail, you can immiediately ressurect your dead Flash Git as both things happen in the command phase. Making it almost effortless to always have 2 orders on your 10 flash gitz.
I totally thought the order would fail if you use 2 and not pass the leadership test. Honestly, for d3 damage, I'd always pick stealth+cover in addition to whatever else I want.
I wonder if 3 rigs and 30 beastsnagga boys with beastbosses is a good thing with reroll charges and +1 strength, with +1 additional strength from the rigs. I dont know how many points you have left for shooty units though, and this detatchment seem to definitely favor a lot of shooting and some melee, as otherwise you almost might as well play war horde.
That's 990 points, plenty of room for some flash gits, kommandoz and tank bustas.
I wonder if having 60 stormboys is a good thing simply for the entire army of 12" advance and charge + potentially reroll charges models you can have. Its not like the enemy can properly screen this out at all. Of course finding 6 characters who are nearby is a problem as they cant have a character following them.
You're just gear-checking the enemy though. 60 boyz without a character just aren't scary to most frontline units (+1S or no), they will get in each other's way when charging and most likely die in droves once they are rapid fire range of an enemy army.
Same reason mek guns count as infantry and vehicles for the purposes of anti if i recall correctly when joined by a SAG.
No, he is right. I just re-checked. The UNIT pools all the keywords, but the MODELs don't. Transport is explicitly asking for beastsnagga MODELs, which kommandoz are not.
Dread mob, for example, is looking for mek UNITs, so any unit with a mek in it qualifies.
For the same reasons, the mek gun stunt doesn't work either. Taktiks tells us that the MODEL get's +1 to hit if it is infantry, which the guns are not.
Well, guess i was wrong on that, or maybe i miss understood. Well it's just something to be aware. Also touche on the wording on the transports and orders being infantry model. Another gotcha to keep tabs
Disclaimer that I usually play kult of speed in a more casual setting...
Just got in my first game with this detachment and I gotta say, the absolute high of all my shooting hitting on 4s was amazing. And then on top of that being able to pick stealth or reroll charges...
I kinda gambled a bit with two units of kommandos (with snikrot and a megaboss) as far up as possible along with zogrod + grots, but I got first turn and with the free charge rerolls just trapped my opponent in their deployment zone for the whole match. Zogrod's supa grots with taktiks are very funny. Losing D3 models is near meaningless.
I didn't get to try out all the stratagems and I own zero stormboyz but it was still a ton of fun handing out orders and combining squads in new ways.
Bikes with -1 to hit and shoota drills were indeed much more threatening.
Finally, I am very amused by the fact that you can order a Battlewagon to get Skeaky Stalkin' and it is "affected" by it... it just doesn't get a stealth or cover bonus. "Sure ting boss, I'll say shhhh wen I floor it".
Dumb question incoming but i never really used the hunta rigs before.
When you throw snagga boys in to the hunta rig, and you add the full value of its ability to get extra Butcha boyz attacks thats capped at +6, do you get a total amount of 6 attacks, or 10? Like can you only essentially add +2 for a total of 6, or do you add 6, and it has 4 already, for a total of 10?
Beardedragon wrote: Dumb question incoming but i never really used the hunta rigs before.
When you throw snagga boys in to the hunta rig, and you add the full value of its ability to get extra Butcha boyz attacks thats capped at +6, do you get a total amount of 6 attacks, or 10? Like can you only essentially add +2 for a total of 6, or do you add 6, and it has 4 already, for a total of 10?
Which of the two are correct?
So you add up to a maximum modifier of 6+ for the extra attacks weapon profile, which means with the base for, would mean a total of 10.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Has anyone field tested the Blood Axes themed Grotmas detachment?
Dude, chill. It's been out there for like two days
No. Must play (vicariously, in this case) with all the new toys, immediately Those Dark Angels guys were rebuilding their lists before they finished reading the PDF.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Has anyone field tested the Blood Axes themed Grotmas detachment?
I got one game in, just a couple posts up. Was a lot of fun and honestly felt a bit too strong, though I'm used to playing our worst detachment so take from that what you will.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Has anyone field tested the Blood Axes themed Grotmas detachment?
Dude, chill. It's been out there for like two days
No. Must play (vicariously, in this case) with all the new toys, immediately Those Dark Angels guys were rebuilding their lists before they finished reading the PDF.
Building a list takes a couple of minutes, it pretty much builds itself.
Finding all the models though? Takes me almost a day just to figure out where everything is
As I understand, Breaka Boyz / Tankbustas comes in some megabox that is already sold out and became available sometime during the spring or something? Right?
And I have to concur with the Bearddragon that the “6 model unit” is pretty stupid count not compatible with rules around. Any good idea why GW did this?
Tomsug wrote: As I understand, Breaka Boyz / Tankbustas comes in some megabox that is already sold out and became available sometime during the spring or something? Right?
They were part of the last kill team starter box. Honestly, I think GW did this the right way. A kill team box comes with a ton of extra stuff that 40k players don't need, so releasing the rules later helps with the target audience actually getting the box. Rattlings aren't marines, unless you can split the box with someone interested in them, it's not a bargain anyways.
And I have to concur with the Bearddragon that the “6 model unit” is pretty stupid count not compatible with rules around. Any good idea why GW did this?
Most new units so far are either 2x3 models, 2x5 models or 2x10 models. I'm rather happy to have 6 in one box rather than 2x3. It's (slightly) cheaper to buy, you have less identical models, more options and no min unit shenanigans to worry about. The reason why they did it? I more likely related to sprue space or sculpting problems than anything else. The other possibility is that the nob was planned as a character (it doesn't really match either unit aesthetically), but scratched by the rules team, similar to the nob on smasha squig.
I don' t believe the 6man squad has anything todo wih the spruce etc. You will not taran the game because of “hey, there is some space on the sprue left”.
Your second explanation seems to be better, but not the main reason.
With all the transport rules ready for 5man squads + char the 6 man squad breaks the ecosystem.
There is definitely something deeper behind. It is eihter deeper intent - part of the whole new story of “let' s change it all” - look at the Koptas, or Squigriders that are 3/6 too.
Or some marvelous human error.
Is there some resizing of the squads visible un other armies too? Because if yes, than my giess is this is a prep for new squad logic in 11th edition.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My paranoic mind also adds “they make it 6 to make it uneffective to simply convert nobz to new units”
Personally I don’t thing it has anything to do with rules. Design Team created the squad and it just so happened that 6 models fit on the sprue. Afterwards rules writers just had to work with what they got. We heard from several sources in the past that's exactly how GW works, Designs come first, rules are a second thought and rely on what the sprues give them, with the framework since 9th throwing anything out that's not on the sprue of that unit.
Half the primaris range and many chaos elite units are squads of 3 or 6. If MANz didn't come with an option to build a big mek, you can bet your choppa that no other squad size other than 3 or 6 would be legal either.
I also don't think ork transports are being designed around two 5 man squads+character, but rather providing enough space to fit either 10 boyz+2 or 5 MANz+1 units.
In general, rules are changed to match new models, not the other way around.
Calling it "breaking the ecosystem" is a bit of an overreaction anyways, don't you think? Both a unit of tank bustas and breaka boyz can absolutely ride any of our transports after being joined by a character, even a naut.
The thing that's actually bugging you is not being able maximize efficiency by fitting two units with character support in one trukk.
It is absolutely no drama at all. Just interesting. Maybe it’ s just a Headology formed by the previous edditons with the breaking point on 5 models units all round the ork army and pressing the size of the units to 5 because of the blast, despite the fact they could have been 6.
However, the transport capacity is an issue little bit. The logic I see is you either have 2 small / 1 big unit Transporr or 4 small / 2 big /1 huge units Transport.
Now if you take 2 BBs with char, you have 14 models, 8 left so you cannot enither fit one big nor 2 small ones. That is the breaking of the system I see. Big problem? I doubt. Meaningless restriction? Definitely.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Has anyone field tested the Blood Axes themed Grotmas detachment?
Dude, chill. It's been out there for like two days
No. Must play (vicariously, in this case) with all the new toys, immediately Those Dark Angels guys were rebuilding their lists before they finished reading the PDF.
So finally got a game in. Ironically, I was facing the new Dark Angels played by a veteran.
The good:
- Snikrot going up to S8 during the Waaagh! was a game changer, he just plowed through those marines. He and his unit benefit from re-roll to charges and +1S immensely, and I actually used the ranged buff in T1 to get a BS4+ rokkit shot off.
- Tank bustas with SAG, pulsa rokkit and dakka buff wiped out the the remaining knights and their librarian. You absolutely need to hide these in a trukk. As soon as they were out in the open my opponent targeted them with every spare shot he could, and they bled models fast. Same statline as flash gits, after all.
- Flash gits with MA mek were extremely difficult to shift for my opponent while he had his face full of kommandos, and being able to resurrect the casualties inflicted by failed taktiks is gold. Despite being a bad target for them due to -1 damage and 2+, they still wiped 3 deathwing knights.
- The move after fall back stratagem is gold. As the ravenwing had a lot of fall back shenanigans, being able to move 6" during my opponent's turn messed up a lot of shots and charges for him.
- Squig riders with stealth and permanent cover were nigh invincible... until I failed a spectacular 17 saves in a row with exactly zero successful feel no pain rolls.
- Fall back and shoot/charge is very valuable on kommandoz and squigs to move past screens and wipe out valuable targets, and a death sentence for anyone foolish enough to try fight flash gits in combat
- I regularly had situations where +1S improved the wound roll, it's much more useful than I originally though and stacks incredibly well with the Waaagh!
- The detachment isn't super CP hungry, most power comes from the taktiks. Yet, not bringing at least one unit of gretchin was a mistake.
The meh:
- The detachment had literally no impact on stormboys during the game. They did win me the game by deep striking onto objectives, screening out terminators and then dying slow enough to score 15 VP. Not having a character with them seriously lowers their utility in this detachment. There was no unit
- The sustained/lethal stragem is nice but doesn't really match what my army was trying to do. I used it once and it felt like a waste compared to just grenading the target.
- My warbikers got oath'ed turn one and obliterated before doing anything. Due to the stealth/cover buff it took all of the dark angel's big guns to do so, but it's hard to judge a unit from that.
The bad
- I had a unit of shoota boyz with Ufthak and Weird boy for deep strike shenanigans, but the lack of AP and fighting power didn't add up well. My opponent realized their weakness and just kept me stuck in combat while neutering the unit with the -1 to wound -1 to hit stratagem so I could neither kill his deathwing dread nor ravenwing speeder. Warboss/Big Mek is probably a much better unit composition for them.
- The enhancement for adding a warboss to a unit of kommandoz was fun, but didn't do much in the end. Kommadoz lack the punch of nobz or beastsnaggas, so despite the +1 to hit buff they struggled to put relevant damage into any marine unit.
- Removing kommadoz or stormboyz from the board was pretty useless, as your opponent can shut it down by tagging them and snikrot does it better.
In general, taktiks are definitely powerful, but very much a double-edged sword. The damage caused by the mortal wounds penalty can quickly cause significant casualties to expensive units, and opponent can use otherwise useless forced battleshock tests to switch off your sneaky protection.
For those facing the new Dark Angels detachment, be aware of some pitfalls:
- All dreads are deathwing. Any unit lead by a named character is deathwing. Speeders and Planes are ravenwing. If they are decent players, they will used these units to trigger their extremely powerful stratagems.
- Speaking of stratagems, make Azrael a priority target. Fighting against that guaranteed extra CP is an uphill battle.
- Be aware of the ravenwing command squad. The benefit immensely from the outrider buff and will plow through a unit of nob profiles as if they were gretchin.
- My warbikers got oath'ed turn one and obliterated before doing anything. Due to the stealth/cover buff it took all of the dark angel's big guns to do so, but it's hard to judge a unit from that.
Well, seems like they worked like they usually did
I had the pleasure or displeasure of facing grey knight new detach, i was almost completely countered. ignore modifiers wrecked my mek with flashgitz, the new strat of minus 2 charge countered my one good charge and so on.
I was holding on but by T2 things were hitting the fan quickly... we did not finish the game but i told him the way things were going, probably going to be my loss, even though i was leading on score.
Some stuff to take note, tanbustas are amazing for their cost. Gorkanaught only goes on dread waagh, little support on this detach. I messed up terrain but my opponent also forgot his faction rule so quid pro quo. Probably downsizing mek with flashgitz into a SAG with 5 flashgitz. Need to try tankbustas/nobz combo on a truck
Lathe Biosas wrote: Has anyone field tested the Blood Axes themed Grotmas detachment?
Dude, chill. It's been out there for like two days
No. Must play (vicariously, in this case) with all the new toys, immediately Those Dark Angels guys were rebuilding their lists before they finished reading the PDF.
So finally got a game in. Ironically, I was facing the new Dark Angels played by a veteran.
The good:
- Snikrot going up to S8 during the Waaagh! was a game changer, he just plowed through those marines. He and his unit benefit from re-roll to charges and +1S immensely, and I actually used the ranged buff in T1 to get a BS4+ rokkit shot off.
- Tank bustas with SAG, pulsa rokkit and dakka buff wiped out the the remaining knights and their librarian. You absolutely need to hide these in a trukk. As soon as they were out in the open my opponent targeted them with every spare shot he could, and they bled models fast. Same statline as flash gits, after all.
- Flash gits with MA mek were extremely difficult to shift for my opponent while he had his face full of kommandos, and being able to resurrect the casualties inflicted by failed taktiks is gold. Despite being a bad target for them due to -1 damage and 2+, they still wiped 3 deathwing knights.
- The move after fall back stratagem is gold. As the ravenwing had a lot of fall back shenanigans, being able to move 6" during my opponent's turn messed up a lot of shots and charges for him.
- Squig riders with stealth and permanent cover were nigh invincible... until I failed a spectacular 17 saves in a row with exactly zero successful feel no pain rolls.
- Fall back and shoot/charge is very valuable on kommandoz and squigs to move past screens and wipe out valuable targets, and a death sentence for anyone foolish enough to try fight flash gits in combat
- I regularly had situations where +1S improved the wound roll, it's much more useful than I originally though and stacks incredibly well with the Waaagh!
- The detachment isn't super CP hungry, most power comes from the taktiks. Yet, not bringing at least one unit of gretchin was a mistake.
The meh:
- The detachment had literally no impact on stormboys during the game. They did win me the game by deep striking onto objectives, screening out terminators and then dying slow enough to score 15 VP. Not having a character with them seriously lowers their utility in this detachment. There was no unit
- The sustained/lethal stragem is nice but doesn't really match what my army was trying to do. I used it once and it felt like a waste compared to just grenading the target.
- My warbikers got oath'ed turn one and obliterated before doing anything. Due to the stealth/cover buff it took all of the dark angel's big guns to do so, but it's hard to judge a unit from that.
The bad
- I had a unit of shoota boyz with Ufthak and Weird boy for deep strike shenanigans, but the lack of AP and fighting power didn't add up well. My opponent realized their weakness and just kept me stuck in combat while neutering the unit with the -1 to wound -1 to hit stratagem so I could neither kill his deathwing dread nor ravenwing speeder. Warboss/Big Mek is probably a much better unit composition for them.
- The enhancement for adding a warboss to a unit of kommandoz was fun, but didn't do much in the end. Kommadoz lack the punch of nobz or beastsnaggas, so despite the +1 to hit buff they struggled to put relevant damage into any marine unit.
- Removing kommadoz or stormboyz from the board was pretty useless, as your opponent can shut it down by tagging them and snikrot does it better.
In general, taktiks are definitely powerful, but very much a double-edged sword. The damage caused by the mortal wounds penalty can quickly cause significant casualties to expensive units, and opponent can use otherwise useless forced battleshock tests to switch off your sneaky protection.
For those facing the new Dark Angels detachment, be aware of some pitfalls:
- All dreads are deathwing. Any unit lead by a named character is deathwing. Speeders and Planes are ravenwing. If they are decent players, they will used these units to trigger their extremely powerful stratagems.
- Speaking of stratagems, make Azrael a priority target. Fighting against that guaranteed extra CP is an uphill battle.
- Be aware of the ravenwing command squad. The benefit immensely from the outrider buff and will plow through a unit of nob profiles as if they were gretchin.
Wow, sounds like an excellent game.
I'm glad that the Grotmas Detachment worked so well for you.
Besides Snikrot, do any of the other named orks work for this detachment?
I’ve got mine with regular kannon and all the melee
I'm not using one currently, but when I was I used Kannon, Lobba, 4x Big Shootas and all the melee options.
'Ard Case was dependent on whether I was putting shooting units inside or not.
How is everyone's lists looking these days now we're headed into the new year? I've abandoned by Hunta Rig in favour of just putting more trukk-mounted Dakka into the list to make it a bit more flexible. Being basically a melee-exclusive army was becoming very limiting, especially when my regular opponents are hyper mobile Drukhari and Dakka Space Marines.
- My warbikers got oath'ed turn one and obliterated before doing anything. Due to the stealth/cover buff it took all of the dark angel's big guns to do so, but it's hard to judge a unit from that.
Well, seems like they worked like they usually did
What was your list?
Well, it definitely took more firepower to kill them, but oath and storm speeder debuff pretty much negated the taktiks. Or the taktiks negated his buffs, depending how you want to look at it. Either way, they soaked most of the T1 firepower, which is more than they usually do.
List was
10 Flash gits + MA Big Mek + Trukk
6 Tank Bustas w/ rokkit pistols and pulsa rokkit + SAG + Trukk
4 Squigs + Mozrog
6 Bikes + Wartrike
20 Shoota boyz with 2 rokkits, PK + Ufthak and weird boy
10 Stormboyz
10 Kommandoz w/ rokkit, PK + Snikrot
10 Kommandoz w/ rokkit, PK + Beastboss
I probably went a bit heavy on characters and could have played better, but I still managed to barely win the game against a good player with a terrifying list.
Have a 1k war horde list.
Can’t decide which enhancement for which character.
I have mega boss, warboss, and a mek.
I’m thinking follow me ladz on the megaboss to up their mobility.
Killchoppa for the warboss with nobz
And I can’t decide which enhancement for the mek that will be w/ boyz in a battlewagon, and supported by kanz, but maybe supa cybork body seems appropriate lol.
johnpjones1775 wrote: Have a 1k war horde list.
Can’t decide which enhancement for which character.
I have mega boss, warboss, and a mek.
I’m thinking follow me ladz on the megaboss to up their mobility.
Killchoppa for the warboss with nobz
And I can’t decide which enhancement for the mek that will be w/ boyz in a battlewagon, and supported by kanz, but maybe supa cybork body seems appropriate lol.
How many points do you have to play with? If you've got heaps of points you might be better off squeezing another unit in.
Both of your suggestions for the bosses are solid choices though.
johnpjones1775 wrote: Have a 1k war horde list.
Can’t decide which enhancement for which character.
I have mega boss, warboss, and a mek.
I’m thinking follow me ladz on the megaboss to up their mobility.
Killchoppa for the warboss with nobz
And I can’t decide which enhancement for the mek that will be w/ boyz in a battlewagon, and supported by kanz, but maybe supa cybork body seems appropriate lol.
How many points do you have to play with? If you've got heaps of points you might be better off squeezing another unit in.
Both of your suggestions for the bosses are solid choices though.
Before any enhancements 70pts left over, and that’s my entire ork collection so far.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forceride wrote: Really depends on what you want. Follow me lads has a lot flexibility both for boss on squig and meganobz.
7' meganobz are deceptively fast, on the other hand a truck can give them 12' move and 10wounds
killchoppa, i generally reserve for something that can combo up or has wound re-rolls, honestly feel boss on squig is the best bet.
You forgot the fallback and charge enhancement, lot of potential to some characters as well
i give the FNP to something like megaboss, with lots of wounds convert's him into a mini boss on squig
Still this is opinion based, your options are not bad, really depends on your list so i just gave you some ideas.
yeah the 4+++ on the mega boss was my initial go to, but being only for the boss not the unit means once the bodyguards are gone swamping him with massed fire would like be what happens. Meanwhile I think the mek wouldn’t be quite as a magnet of fire allowing the 4+++ to keep him alive much longer the most might expect.
With 70 points left over I'd be tempted to fit in a unit of Stormboys or a weirdboy for objective shenanigans.
What does the rest of the list look like? Ultimately if the list is missing something that an enhancement can cover, then get the enhancement. If not, just add more objective scoring units.
Afrodactyl wrote: With 70 points left over I'd be tempted to fit in a unit of Stormboys or a weirdboy for objective shenanigans.
What does the rest of the list look like? Ultimately if the list is missing something that an enhancement can cover, then get the enhancement. If not, just add more objective scoring units.
Afrodactyl wrote: With 70 points left over I'd be tempted to fit in a unit of Stormboys or a weirdboy for objective shenanigans.
What does the rest of the list look like? Ultimately if the list is missing something that an enhancement can cover, then get the enhancement. If not, just add more objective scoring units.
kinda hard to do that if you don’t have them
Sorry, I didn't see the comment that you didn't have any other models available
I'd go with Killchoppa on the Warboss, Follow Me on the Megaboss, and Kunnin' on the Mek.
Warboss gets the most attacks with Waaagh, thus gets the most benefit from Killchoppa in lieu of anything with Anti.
Megaboss gets the most out of Follow Me, with or without a transport.
Mek is a toss up, but I think I'd prefer the potential utility of fall back and charge over the 4+++.
I am using new recruit. Any success with new detach? I an still experimenting.
Undefeated so far, and it starts showing up in top ranks of GTs.
One of the main powerhouses of the army are the new tankbustas though. In general it feels and plays like a better version of dread mob with access to more units, but with less powerful stratagems.
Boss Snikrot (95pts): Mork’s Teeth, Slugga
Beastboss (95pts): Skwad Leader, Beast Snagga klaw, Beastchoppa, Shoota
Big Mek in Mega Armour (125pts): Mek Kaptin, Kustom mega-blasta, Power klaw, Grot oiler, Kustom force field
Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun (65pts): Close combat weapon, Shokk attack gun, Grot assistant
Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun (65pts): Close combat weapon, Shokk attack gun, Grot assistant
Quick question, I’m looking at playing against dark eldar, and the splinter weapons Anti infantry 3+ seems nasty vs ORKS, because our high toughness is what makes us durable, not saves or wounds like marines.
Does anyone have experience vs dark eldar and any advice? I was thinking Dredd mob would be good to use but want to play with the tactical brigade thing.
Andykp wrote: Quick question, I’m looking at playing against dark eldar, and the splinter weapons Anti infantry 3+ seems nasty vs ORKS, because our high toughness is what makes us durable, not saves or wounds like marines.
Does anyone have experience vs dark eldar and any advice? I was thinking Dredd mob would be good to use but want to play with the tactical brigade thing.
I quite regularly play against Drukhari, and yes splinter weapons can be pretty nasty. However, they have very little AP on those weapons, so you're nearly always getting your saves in against them, especially if you use a lot of Snagga stuff to get FNPs as well.
Generally speaking they're very maneuverable and department damage well, but they're not so good at taking a punch in return. Use Ork movement to its fullest so that you're the one controlling the flow of the game, and hit them them hard so that the return isn't so bad.
Andykp wrote: Quick question, I’m looking at playing against dark eldar, and the splinter weapons Anti infantry 3+ seems nasty vs ORKS, because our high toughness is what makes us durable, not saves or wounds like marines.
Does anyone have experience vs dark eldar and any advice? I was thinking Dredd mob would be good to use but want to play with the tactical brigade thing.
If you’re concerned about him chewing through you dudes and you want to use tactikal brigade, just bring a lot of boyz.
They’re also super glass cannons. Iirc they’re super heavy is the only thing over T9, so wrecking them shouldn’t be too hard.
Just get close and krump ‘em
Good to know thanks. Tactikal brigade sounds a lot of fun, so a lot of boyz should do the job, not a problem, I have a LOT of boyz. I mostly play against marines, loyal of chaos so everything under t9 sounds like a dream.
amazing conversion, btw where did you get the axes from?
Also for the player talking about anti-inf 3, don't forget we have mounted and great vehicles to soak damage, always try to out maneuver them.
For some reason i settled in always bringing a mek with my gorka, the +1 t hit is such a huge game changer, i really did not realized it until i tried it out again with and with out(it felt like i am relearning the game, humbling moment ).. I used it last games to babysit my flashgitz and oh man those 2 were absolute bullies, the flashgitz fired around 240shots over 3 rounds(6 activation's with overwatch and full re-roles) in one game. It was insane when properly played and used, truly felt as a bully that day..
Anyway, have you guy's tried breakaboys with tankbustas in a truck? Currently considering maybe moving to them in order to cut the warboss+nobz and gain like 40 extra points for maybe a few more grots or a squad of boyz?
Still have to try 5rockets vs 6rockets in a truck.
Axes are simple rectangles from 2mm plastik shaped by knife.
Brian Saipp on Nottingham GT has a very strict list smells like a nerfhammer swinging above our heads…
Spoiler:
Brian Seipp
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Player Name: Brian Seipp
Factions Used: Orks
Army Points: 2000
Army Enhancements (list on which model): Mek Kaptain (Big Mek w/ Mega Armor), Gob Boomer (Big Mek w/ SAG)
Detachment: Takitkal Brigade
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=== Characters ===
Big Mek w/ Mega Armor (125 pts) - Kustom Mega Blasta, Power Klaw, Mek Kaptain
Big Mek w/ SAG (75 pts) - Grot Oiler, Gob Boomer
Big Mek w/ SAG (65 pts) - Grot Oiler
Big Mek w/ SAG (65 pts) - Grot Oiler
Warboss (75 pts) - Power Klaw, Attack Squig
Warboss (75 pts) - Power Klaw, Attack Squig
Warboss (75 pts) - Power Klaw, Attack Squig
=== Other ===
6x Breaka Boyz (140 pts) - 2x Bomb Squig, Tank Hammer
6x Breaka Boyz (140 pts) - 2x Bomb Squig, Tank Hammer
6x Breaka Boyz (140 pts) - 2x Bomb Squig, Tank Hammer
5x Burna Boyz (60 pts) - Kustom Mega Blasta
10x Flash Gitz (160 pts) - Ammo Runt
5x Flash Gitz (80 pts) - Ammo Runt
Tomsug wrote: Axes are simple rectangles from 2mm plastik shaped by knife.
Brian Saipp on Nottingham GT has a very strict list smells like a nerfhammer swinging above our heads…
Spoiler:
Brian Seipp
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Player Name: Brian Seipp
Factions Used: Orks
Army Points: 2000
Army Enhancements (list on which model): Mek Kaptain (Big Mek w/ Mega Armor), Gob Boomer (Big Mek w/ SAG)
Detachment: Takitkal Brigade
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=== Characters ===
Big Mek w/ Mega Armor (125 pts) - Kustom Mega Blasta, Power Klaw, Mek Kaptain
Big Mek w/ SAG (75 pts) - Grot Oiler, Gob Boomer
Big Mek w/ SAG (65 pts) - Grot Oiler
Big Mek w/ SAG (65 pts) - Grot Oiler
Warboss (75 pts) - Power Klaw, Attack Squig
Warboss (75 pts) - Power Klaw, Attack Squig
Warboss (75 pts) - Power Klaw, Attack Squig
=== Other ===
6x Breaka Boyz (140 pts) - 2x Bomb Squig, Tank Hammer
6x Breaka Boyz (140 pts) - 2x Bomb Squig, Tank Hammer
6x Breaka Boyz (140 pts) - 2x Bomb Squig, Tank Hammer
5x Burna Boyz (60 pts) - Kustom Mega Blasta
10x Flash Gitz (160 pts) - Ammo Runt
5x Flash Gitz (80 pts) - Ammo Runt
I don't think we'll be hit all that much. Maybe some minor points adjustments, and Mek Kaptin being limited to non-mega armour Meks.
Brian's list is good but it isn't terribly durable and is relying on a turn or two to blast stuff off the table and then move in to clean up. Some bad rolls and the list bounces off. Granted it's mitigated by +1s, rerolls and Stealth, but it has exploitable weaknesses.
Every time Orks get anything new, they get a huge bump in the amount of people at top tables playing them. Also, we only had a 50% win rate over the weekend, which is exactly where GW wants us, regardless of the number of events won. I think we'll do alright in the next balance update.
Not a fan of footslogging on 2k points , there is just too much stuff that can clear 1w low save units.
On the other hand, has a lot of use at 1kpts, funny as that is.
Another thing i do not like, is the sacrifice of move, transports, if used well can provide with a nice shell, and force opponent to give up a charge, or if it consolidates into you, provide a free fight phase with no retaliation.
Forceride wrote: Not a fan of footslogging on 2k points , there is just too much stuff that can clear 1w low save units.
On the other hand, has a lot of use at 1kpts, funny as that is.
Another thing i do not like, is the sacrifice of move, transports, if used well can provide with a nice shell, and force opponent to give up a charge, or if it consolidates into you, provide a free fight phase with no retaliation.
The awesome part about the new detachment is IMO that most valuable units are actually 2W/4+, which is not as easy to clear as regular boyz, especially when you drop permanent cover and -1 to hit on it. Nobz, Flash Gits, Tank Bustas and Breaka Boyz are all great units who can pull their own weight. Being able to run infantry lists without worrying about my back hurting from moving 200+ models is huge boon to me.
Michael Mann – Orks (Taktikal Brigade) – 2nd Place (Undefeated) - no kommandos, MA Mek kaptin Flashgitz, 3xSAG + TB, more FG and Burna Boyz and tripple Warboss & PK Nobz kombo
Spoiler:
Taktikal time (2000 Points)
Orks
Taktikal Brigade
Strike Force (2000 Points)
CHARACTERS
Big Mek in Mega Armour (125 Points)
• Warlord
• 1x Grot Oiler
• 1x Kustom Force Field
• 1x Kustom mega-blasta
• 1x Power klaw
• Enhancements: Mek Kaptin
Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun (75 Points)
• 1x Close combat weapon
• 1x Grot Assistant
• 1x Shokk attack gun
• Enhancements: Gob Boomer
Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun (65 Points)
• 1x Close combat weapon
• 1x Grot Assistant
• 1x Shokk attack gun
Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun (65 Points)
• 1x Close combat weapon
• 1x Grot Assistant
• 1x Shokk attack gun
Nobz (105 Points)
• 1x Boss Nob
◦ 1x Power klaw
◦ 1x Slugga
• 4x Nob
◦ 4x Power klaw
◦ 4x Slugga
Nobz (105 Points)
• 1x Boss Nob
◦ 1x Power klaw
◦ 1x Slugga
• 4x Nob
◦ 4x Power klaw
◦ 4x Slugga
Nobz (105 Points)
• 1x Boss Nob
◦ 1x Power klaw
◦ 1x Slugga
• 4x Nob
◦ 4x Power klaw
◦ 4x Slugga
The Brawl GT – Beachhead Warm Up! - Joshua Cowlard – Orks (War Horde) – 1st Place - a LOT of Trukks and nice mix on old and new units
Spoiler:
Kill teams are good and healthy for the game
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ FACTION KEYWORD: Xenos – Orks
+ DETACHMENT: War Horde
+ TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000pts
+
+ WARLORD: Char1: Ghazghkull Thraka
+ ENHANCEMENT: Follow Me Ladz (on Char3: Warboss)
+ NUMBER OF UNITS: 23
+ SECONDARY: – Bring It Down: (5×2) – Assassination: 6 Characters
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
They fit with 5Nobz+ Warboss in the trukk (same like 5 Flashgitz but cheaper). You drive forward, use them to clean the screens and use them like ablative wounds if the transport is destroied. Keeps your Nobz safe and makes them the way.
If the trukk stays alive, they became fast moving shooting platform good to deal with all kind light scoring units.
They works the same with the Breacha Boyz.
They are basicly the cheapest* 5 body infantry to fill the space. And on the end of the they, you have a limit 2000p and sudenly you wana spare 20p so you take the Burnas instead of Flashgitz.
* Lootas are cheaper but sucks in this rule due HEAVY
So the meta just shifted to have more chaff around?
I'm not questioning their usefulness, it's just odd that a unit was nowhere to be seen for pretty much all of the current competitive pack and suddenly it starts popping up everywhere, despite it not receiving a single buff or benefitting from the detachment they are primarily used in.
As for lootas, I highly doubt that heavy is the problem. We are talking about 3 deff gunz here, so best case 1-2 additional hits for standing still on an AP-1 gun.Lootas also get re-rolls on their KMBs, while burnas don't, and you could buff +1 to hit from a nearby character if you really needed it (you don't). We need to stop freaking out over heavy like it's still 7th edition.
The only reason for burnas to come out on top is if you actually need the profiles burnas and cutting flames are providing, which was not the case so far. Which is why I'm asking.
Hawaii “War on the Shore” Charity GT 2025 - Doug Johnson - Bully Boyz built around 2 small squads of squig riders with Beastbos on saur and Mozdrog, Ghazzy and 3x5 MANz
Spoiler:
Orks
+ DETACHMENT: Bully Boyz
+ TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000pts
+
+ WARLORD: Char1: Ghazghkull Thraka
Char1: 2x Ghazghkull Thraka (235 pts): Warlord
• 1x Ghazghkull Thraka: Gork’s Klaw, Mork’s Roar
• 1x Makari: Makari’s stabba
Char2: 1x Mozrog Skragbad (165 pts): Big Chompa’s jaws, Gutrippa, Thump gun
Char3: 1x Beastboss on Squigosaur (130 pts): Beastchoppa, Slugga, Squigosaur’s jaws
Char4: 1x Big Mek in Mega Armour (90 pts): Grot oiler, Kustom force field, Kustom mega-blasta, Power klaw
Char5: 1x Big Mek in Mega Armour (90 pts): Grot oiler, Kustom force field, Kustom mega-blasta, Power klaw
Char6: 1x Weirdboy (65 pts): ‘Eadbanger, Weirdboy staff
11x Gretchin (40 pts)
• 10x Gretchin: 10 with Close combat weapon, Grot blasta
• 1x Runtherd: Grot-smacka, Slugga
11x Gretchin (40 pts)
• 10x Gretchin: 10 with Close combat weapon, Grot blasta
• 1x Runtherd: Grot-smacka, Slugga
11x Gretchin (40 pts)
• 10x Gretchin: 10 with Close combat weapon, Grot blasta
• 1x Runtherd: Grot-smacka, Slugga
5x Meganobz (175 pts): 5 with Kombi-weapon, Power klaw
5x Meganobz (175 pts): 5 with Kombi-weapon, Power klaw
5x Meganobz (175 pts): 5 with Kombi-weapon, Power klaw
5x Stormboyz (65 pts)
• 1x Boss Nob: Slugga, Power klaw
• 4x Stormboy: 4 with Choppa, Slugga
5x Stormboyz (65 pts)
• 1x Boss Nob: Slugga, Power klaw
• 4x Stormboy: 4 with Choppa, Slugga
4x Squighog Boyz (160 pts): Bomb squig
• 1x Nob on Smasha Squig: Big choppa, Slugga, Squig jaws
• 3x Squighog Boy: 3 with Saddlegit weapons, Squig jaws, Stikka
4x Squighog Boyz (160 pts): Bomb squig
• 1x Nob on Smasha Squig: Big choppa, Slugga, Squig jaws
• 3x Squighog Boy: 3 with Saddlegit weapons, Squig jaws, Stikka
1x Trukk (65 pts): Big shoota, Spiked wheels, Wreckin’ ball
1x Trukk (65 pts): Big shoota, Spiked wheels, Wreckin’ ball
Automatically Appended Next Post: So it is 7 list total of 4 different detachements out of 7. And each of them has it' s own style. I love this phase of the meta!
Jidmah wrote: So the meta just shifted to have more chaff around?
I'm not questioning their usefulness, it's just odd that a unit was nowhere to be seen for pretty much all of the current competitive pack and suddenly it starts popping up everywhere, despite it not receiving a single buff or benefitting from the detachment they are primarily used in.
Actually makes sense, in a heavy mechanized meta, you bring chaff to bog down and increase transit. The added benefit is, it also cover's for first charge and objective control. I also believe people are realising that being tough sacrifices having presence in the map, this is a major death kneel.
I suspect we are having so much sucess tourney wise because of this. We are mostly half mechanized and now, finally, we have tools to deal with those high T.
It's funny but i think the meta is coming full circle. I fully expect elite infantry to gain relevance at this rate.
Also no faction expects ork shooting being decent. I feel we are in a amazing spot where we are a flexible threat.
Good video. It's very telling that so many veteran ork players suddenly start winning events once the codex even remotely starts moving towards the "good" territory.
Tank bustas are absolutely catching a nerf though. There is just no reason not to bring 3x6 in any list you play, regardless of detachment.
Yep, gotta enjoy it while it lasts. When Ork dakka actually hits, it hits HARD. I was able to basically almost one-shot an Avatar of Khaine with a single unit of tankbustas due to above average rolls, which absolutely shocked my friend who plays Eldar, because for pretty much this whole edition, my range could do diddly to him.
Knowing GW and how much whinging most tourney meta chasers do when Orks do remotely well, I expect the nerfhammer to be quite severe, so lock and load the tankbustas before the inevitable balance update!
Orks didn't do much at LVO or anywhere else over the weekend. Chances of us catching a hefty nerf are dwindling. Taktikal dropped down to 50ish percent and everything else into the 40s or lower.
Maybe Tankbustas and/or Shock Attack Guns getting a bump, but I can't see us getting huge nerfs after only having one blow out weekend.
Auto-takes for any faction tend to get a nerf under the new balancing approach. If something pops up in every list irrespective of that list's strategy, that unit is overperforming.
In my games, it's completely obvious that tankbustas are the game changer that makes me steamroll my enemies - the taktiks, the Badrukk enhancement and the stratagems are nice, but none of that would matter if I had to work with lootas or mek guns instead of tankbustas.
Also expecting this. But this is flamers of tzetch issue from 9th all over again, no matter the cost people will just auto take. The issue isn't cost, it's that we currently have no viable better alternatives to it. So will always default to the unit and cut or downgrade the other stuff.
I am already considering a 125~ hole for the nerfs, more if needed. And i am not even abusing them.
I honestly hope GW realises our issue is not nerfs but lack of options, this smells meganobz and greentide debacle all over again
I don't think the flamers of tzeench comparison is accurate, tank bustas are just rokkits, you can get that all over the army. The one thing tankbustas have over any other rokkits and KMBs is +1 to wound and extra AP, which does make a big difference exactly the type certain targets we struggle against. That's not why people are running them though. They are running them because 195 points invested in SAG+6 Tankbustas provide more firepower than 250+ points invested in any other unit sporting comparable guns.
You can probably dig through this thread and find me saying that a unit that provides too many rokkits per points will always be a problem multiple times, and I still stand by that. Tank hammer tax should have stayed, I'm not sure the unit can be balanced as it is now. In the past, tankbustas with all rokkits have never been anything other than crap or must-takes.
I also don't think that nerfing meganobz was unjustified, double nerfing them was a mistake and GW did go back on that.
Jidmah wrote: I don't think the flamers of tzeench comparison is accurate, tank bustas are just rokkits, you can get that all over the army. The one thing tankbustas have over any other rokkits and KMBs is +1 to wound and extra AP, which does make a big difference exactly the type certain targets we struggle against. That's not why people are running them though. They are running them because 195 points invested in SAG+6 Tankbustas provide more firepower than 250+ points invested in any other unit sporting comparable guns.
You can probably dig through this thread and find me saying that a unit that provides too many rokkits per points will always be a problem multiple times, and I still stand by that. Tank hammer tax should have stayed, I'm not sure the unit can be balanced as it is now. In the past, tankbustas with all rokkits have never been anything other than crap or must-takes.
I also don't think that nerfing meganobz was unjustified, double nerfing them was a mistake and GW did go back on that.
Green tide was not nerfed for balancing reasons.
I have to say, that despite what you mention there are similarities in the flamers from 9th argument, they were auto takes that nothing else in the army could replace them, since they did something the rest could not, but i think i understand where your coming from, since like you mentioned, the issue is the ability and the rocket ability (1S -1AP) not the datasheet like the flamers.. not sure the number of rocket's truly takes them over the edge (5d+2+blast), but a combination makes a perfect storm. Maybe the best example was the defkoptas some list were spamming at the time, although i never felt they were broken or that they did anything the army did not have other tools available.. I still think nerfing them is too premature, the stats coming out (Auspex made a video recently) are painting a very different picture as the meta shifts. We did get a honorable mention but we are far off the radar(48%).
My argument on meganobz and greentide was GW taking the shotgun approach, on something that only needed tweaks like you pointed.
Who knows maybe GW realizes that cost decreases on kans and koptas are valid since tankbustas exist
re-reading what i wrote i think i come to the conclusion that i should be more explicit, i will try to do so in the future.
Anyway, good discussion, i think there is still a lot of discussion on tankbustas but i need to get some lists done for Saturday casual morning games, who knows maybe i will come up with another rant, in the meantime krump a lot ork gents.
PS.: Am i reading right or does the Tankbusta ability also affect the SAG? Since it mentions model in the unit? That's kinda op
Jidmah wrote: I don't think the flamers of tzeench comparison is accurate, tank bustas are just rokkits, you can get that all over the army. The one thing tankbustas have over any other rokkits and KMBs is +1 to wound and extra AP, which does make a big difference exactly the type certain targets we struggle against. That's not why people are running them though. They are running them because 195 points invested in SAG+6 Tankbustas provide more firepower than 250+ points invested in any other unit sporting comparable guns.
You can probably dig through this thread and find me saying that a unit that provides too many rokkits per points will always be a problem multiple times, and I still stand by that. Tank hammer tax should have stayed, I'm not sure the unit can be balanced as it is now. In the past, tankbustas with all rokkits have never been anything other than crap or must-takes.
I also don't think that nerfing meganobz was unjustified, double nerfing them was a mistake and GW did go back on that.
Green tide was not nerfed for balancing reasons.
I have to say, that despite what you mention there are similarities in the flamers from 9th argument, they were auto takes that nothing else in the army could replace them, since they did something the rest could not, but i think i understand where your coming from, since like you mentioned, the issue is the ability and the rocket ability (1S -1AP) not the datasheet like the flamers.. not sure the number of rocket's truly takes them over the edge (5d+2+blast), but a combination makes a perfect storm. Maybe the best example was the defkoptas some list were spamming at the time, although i never felt they were broken or that they did anything the army did not have other tools available.. I still think nerfing them is too premature, the stats coming out (Auspex made a video recently) are painting a very different picture as the meta shifts. We did get a honorable mention but we are far off the radar(48%).
My argument on meganobz and greentide was GW taking the shotgun approach, on something that only needed tweaks like you pointed.
Who knows maybe GW realizes that cost decreases on kans and koptas are valid since tankbustas exist
re-reading what i wrote i think i come to the conclusion that i should be more explicit, i will try to do so in the future.
Anyway, good discussion, i think there is still a lot of discussion on tankbustas but i need to get some lists done for Saturday casual morning games, who knows maybe i will come up with another rant, in the meantime krump a lot ork gents.
PS.: Am i reading right or does the Tankbusta ability also affect the SAG? Since it mentions model in the unit? That's kinda op
Yes, the tankbusta ability affects the SAG, that's how it works for most units that have a unit-wide rule that applies to the whole unit versus if it specifies the unit models directly. Part of the reason why SAG is actually worth taking with them.
Forceride wrote: Well that flew over my head! Been playing them inefficiently then. Thx.
Np, something easy to miss since it's more of a 10th ed specific ruling, in most editions in the past it was usually the HQ unit that passed on stuff to the unit but didn't get many rules from the actual unit they joined themselves. Definitely easy to miss, I can't count how many times I've forgotten to apply the reroll hits to my BeastBoss on Foot as well when I charge a vehicle/monster in a Beast Snagga boy unit.
With the eldar codex leaks in full force, any thoughts on how much it'll shape the meta and how much of a counter-pick Orks will be against them? Panzee armies typically are all about mobility and GW have seem to curtailed a bit more on it just being the "Devastating Wound Spam" glass cannon army, but some things look legit scary, like the new shining spears and the new Warp Spider Phoenix Lord and their alpha strike potential. Fire dragons with Fuegan are going to be overkill in my opinion against our army since I feel like we've moved away from having Kill Rigs and Battlewagons spammed as an army, so we're not the ideal army for them to use against. I'm more concerned against 10 man Dark Reaper squads and the smaller sleeper hit of 10 man Dire Avengers in a Falcon with Asurmen, since they can easily snipe out our characters and have enough weight of fire to clear a lot of our infantry while staying safe in their transport.
Ork armies usually play under Pressure Lists, so I feel like we can take advantage of the general lack of ability for Eldar to challenge the primaries of objectives in the early game to put them in their deployment zone, though I feel like it might mirror games in the past where we run out of gas later in the game, but are ahead on primaries and some secondaries that we end up winning even though most of our army is dead by the end of the game.
Eldar have never given me much trouble this edition, even when they were at their peak. Their primary weakness is still choppas and klaws, and units of 10 aspect warriors is just one more thing that gets completely devastated by tank bustas.
Their melee units got a glow up, but still lack the ability to defeat nobz, MANz, breaka boyz or beastsnagga in one turn, and they absolutely can't take a hit back.
Strands of fate gone also means no more auto-sixes for damage, making our characters and vehicles much harder to kill for them, despite all the anti and precision shenanigans.
Their movement shenanigans are absolutely going to be a pain in the ass in competitive for low unit count armies like many taktiks lists tend to be. But I assume we will just adapt to have less elite units with characters in our lists.
I agree. Our movement is good, but Eldar look like they're on another level.
The issues we'll likely face are 1 - catching them, and 2 - having enough left on the table to do damage after we've caught them.
I forsee more Green Tide esque lists popping up to just drown the board in targets, bully our way into the mid table and deny space for movement shenanigans.
There will be some green tide lists this week but the the most interesting hit is this - Stompa in action on Uprising (178 players, Australia) and won 6 out of 8 games. Text is sritten by the Warboss himself
Spoiler:
Local man somehow wins six games with an 800pt trash can - Stompa battle report at a major!
Not going to self indulge too much as I know you’re only reading this because I took a stompa. This event was Uprising in Adelaide, Australia (Largest singles event in Australia, was 178 players at round 1). My list was as follows:
Dredd Mob
Snikrot
Zodgrod
SAG mek with gitfinder goggles
SAG mek
Mek
5x11 grots
1x22 grots
2x10 boyz
2x10 lootas with KMBs
2x5 stormboyz
Trukk
Stompa
Game 1 vs Solar Spearhead custodes on layout 4, mission O (Terraform, stalwarts, crucible)
I haven’t played into this detachment yet so I wasn’t sure what to expect. I deployed fairly conservatively and went first - first mistake I made was I thought the calladius tanks were S14, so I held the stompa for a turn. I’ll keep this one pretty short as I did not come in sharp to this event at all - despite having a 4pt lead end of round 2, I had two minutes left on the clock. My opponent seemed a little concerned I’d be a prick and slow play turn 3 (He didn’t have a ton of time left either but much more than me) but it was pretty clear who was going to win. The stompa killed a contemptor (Which got back up) and a telemon in shooting, but then whiffed in combat on another telemon (Gave him 4 4++, he made 3 so only took 10 damage). The warden brick with the blade champ came out and killed the stompa (It was on 24 wounds, not sure of the average maths but even with the +1 dmg blade champ it felt a bit crazy). Nevertheless even if the stompa didn’t die I was going to concede the game as I had two minutes left on the clock (And he was clearly going to win) so we talked it out from there. Just want to say whilst all 8 opponents I had were lovely, the Custodes player this round played a particularly clean game and I’d happily play them again (He also went 6-2 in the end, so it was better for my ego). 53-78 L
Game 2 vs oathband Votann on layout 1, mission B (purge the foe, smoke and mirrors, tipping point)
Always felt this game was going to be hard as the stompa HATES being double judged, but I gave it a crack anyway. He went first and actually went prerry hard on me, he did like 6 damage to the stompa and killed a grot unit. On my clap back I killed two sagitaurs but the main mistake was I probably disembarked lootas too quickly. Turn 2 he pushes into me again and does about 15 damage to the stompa total (A 5 man termie unit did 10 dev wounds with volkite) and picks up a loota unit. I’m already losing resources a bit too quickly and the stompa is clearly going to die next turn. I try salvage it with the stompa picking up the 5 termies and the fort but he still has another 5 in a fort, which he JUST gets into range (It was tight but with a clever disembark onto a 2nd floor he was able to do so). Stompa dies and I basically concede the game there. 49-99 L
Game 3 vs RRCSM on layout 4, mission J (linchpin, raise banners, search and destroy)
As I’m bad and am on the 0-2 table my opponents list is pretty unoptimized (He was quite new to events). RR with no vindicators means I can hard push into him, by turn 3 he is just about tabled. 94-53 W
Game 4 vs Hypercrypt Necrons on layout 1, mission N (Ritual, swift action, crucible)
Opponents list was 4 c’tan (Nightbringer, void dragon, two transcendent). For the uninitiated this is a very, very easy matchup for the stompa/grot horde list. I can out OC him easily and the stompa kills c’tan very easily so he can’t push them out as much as he could against most armies. I went first and pushed the Zodgrod unit into my middle L, on his turn he picked up his immortal brick and used them to clear some grots in the middle. He then fired and faded back to his home, but the zodgrod unit was still easily able to tag both them and another immortal unit on his home. Along with a lucky 8’ charge from some boyz I tagged three units on his home whilst I set up the stompa with a good sightline and screened the other side of the board with more grots. Game blew out from there as the stompa picked up nightbringer/transcendent/void dragon in consecutive turns as I killed enough trash that he had to use them to score. Game was unloseable from there so I was ok to let him score as long as I got my points easily, ended as a 93-75 W
Game 5 vs DG Plague Company on layout 2, mission L (take and hold, hidden supplies, search and destroy)
This game I was a bit nervous and expected to get rolled as my opponent was on team Australia last year, and even though he was running an army he said he was new to he is still clearly much stronger than I am. I did however play a bunch of DG myself last year, and when he said he was deepstriking two of his three deathshroud units I had one plan: YEET. Went first and moved Zodgrods unit up as close as possible, then waaaghed t1 and sent them into a predator, brigand and drone. I also pushed the stompa up onto one of the middle objectives to force a response, which came on his turn. He moved morty up to shoot it and charged 6 deathshroud plus a character in, doing from memory about 8 wounds to the stompa for the phase. I killed four deathshroud on the swing back through -2 dmg (I had +1 from my strat and he rolled badly). My t2 I pushed boyz onto his home to give him a zero and deepstriked stormboyz onto a flank to block him ingressing for primary. Stompa did literally zero damage to morty as it was hitting on 6s (-1 WS/BS and shooting out of combat) but cleaned up the DST in melee. His turn 2 he charged in another 6 shroud he’d ingressed in his DZ and Morty, and managed to kill the stompa from the very last save Morty gave me (I interrupted into Morty and rolled one hit from 6 attacks on the smash). Despite losing the stompa bottom of 2 I’d effectively put him in jail and managed to hold on for a win despite him coming back very hard at the end. 89-79 win
Game 6 vs DG Plague Company on layout 4, mission C (linchpin, fog of war, tipping point)
This list was very similar to the one I just played but traded the two predators for typhus + 20 poxwalkers and an extra cultist unit. Again I went first and employed the ‘send it’ tactic with Zodgrods unit, however this time I didn’t really charge anything relevant (I killed 10 cultists and tagged a drone). He’d started all three deathshroud units off the board which meant I was pushing him back as far as possible, but I wasn’t doing anywhere near as much with Zodgrods unit this time. He brought Typhus’ poxwalker unit over but it was already a pinch with a 6’ charge and a strung out unit meant only Typhus and six poxwalkers attacked. He also charged in a brigand and tank shocked me so he didn’t have the CP to precision Zodgrod. I went for a hail mary and tried to precision out Typhus with Zodgrod (On average its very close) but he made 3 out of 5 4++ to keep him alive. I fail to kill Morty with the stompa in shooting (Under rolled quite badly but thats 40K) and that meant Morty could clean up stormboyz harassing his home whilst he slowly pushed 18 terminators at the stompa. The big boy eventually died to all the DST turn 3 but as I’d embarked 11 grots to accompany the 10 boyz when it died I was able to get enough grots on the point to out OC his terminators and still hold the objective. This plus Typhus failing the last 4++ save from a shokk attak gun turn 5 to die for assassinate meant I got a VERY close 78-76 win
Game 7 vs Admech haloscreed on layout 4, mission P (Scorched earth, inspired leadership, crucible)
I’d had a practice game into this a week before this event, and in that game I had played the stompa far too conservatively. Regardless of if I went first or second this game I was committing the stompa early, thankfully my opponent went first and made the decision even easier. I nearly lost my mek turn 1 because I didn’t realize the infiltrators he deployed 9’ from my DZ had decent shooting but thankfully I made 4/7 4+ saves with cover to live. He poked out an onager dunecrawler also to plink at the stompa but failed to wound it. I once again waaaghed in my t1 and pushed into him, cleaning up the infiltrators with some boyz whilst Zodgrods unit went and bashed up some skystalkers and tagged a dunerider. He again committed units into me but tried to ignore the stompa this time, picking up Zodgrods unit (But not Zodgrod) and a unit of boyz. I pushed the stompa even harder on my turn 2 and picked up 10 ruststalkers that killed my boyz plus 10 vanguard and another dunerider. This was also the turn I had realized it was pointless to try hold my natural expansion obj as he was going to keep cycling stuff onto it to kill the grots, so I abandoned it and went all in on the stompa in the middle. Turn 3 he gets the stompa to 11 wounds and picks up 10 lootas plus some more trash, its now or never for the big boy. He passes battleshock, heal him to 14 then feed him 2CP and he goes nuts. In shooting I put the deffkannon into one disintegrator, supa rokkits into another and super gattler into 10 vanguard. Deffkannon cleans up the first disintegrator, gattler easily kills the vanguard then I roll a 1 on shots for the supa rokkits (He also smoked so I was hitting on 5s full rerolls with sustained). I command reroll that into a 6 and pick up the tank, then charge Cawl and hit him for a casual 30 damage. This was easily the stompas best game of the event (I counted and he killed 1280pt this game!), whilst my opponent had a strong lead I ran him down purely because he had very little left and I was able to burn his home turn 5 for a 93-82 win.
Game 8 vs the BA grotmas detachment (Forget the name) on layout 1, mission A (take and hold, raise banners, tipping point)
Getting raise banners twice this event was very lucky for me with 8 battleline units. This matchup was into a BA list with 2x vindicator, 1 ballistus and a bunch of JPIs with dante leading some sanguinary guard. On paper I was pretty lucky to get this pairing as the 5-2 bracket was pretty stacked and this was one of the list I felt best into. Again I waaaghed turn 1 and killed three incursors and put two wounds on the combi lt. His turn I was able to trigger the Zodgrod reactive move to pull them out of charge range, and since I had waaagh he didn’t quite have enough to clear the other grot unit in the middle to give me an early 15. I was lucky enough to roll a 4+ on an advance on a grot unit to steal his natural to give me 4 on banners by bottom of my 2, and I’d pushed the rest of my army up to keep screening the inevitable ingress from Dantes unit. I did however make one sloppy mistake here where I could have advanced a unit of boyz to fill up space in front of my lootas which would have made it virtually impossible for him to charge them next turn (I didn’t, and they all died to Dantes unit). Thankfully though my opponent rolled a bit too high on his Mephiston charge and it let the stompa heroic in, which bonked Mephiston and through some clever pile ins and consolidates I still held the middle with the boyz unit he charged. The game petered out from here as I’d built up a big lead already and the stompa cleaned up three units in shooting then charged dante and picked up all the sanguinary guard. My opponent played out his turn 3 then offered to talk it out and draw cards as the result was pretty obvious, so I obliged. 91-77 W
Closing thoughts:
I was very lucky that all 8 of my opponents were excellent sports and we played clean games with no real disputes - I do however want to particularly shout out my opponents in rounds 1, 5, 6 and 8 (Shannen, Jordan, Alex, Carl) for the spirit they played the game in. This list is very fun but a lot harder than I initially thought, however I was reasonably confident into most meta lists with it (Despite not playing into vanguard marines or SSA I was fairly confident I had game into both). The embarrassment of clocking out so early round 1 spurred me to play much faster for the rest of the event, with my remaining seven games all reaching natural conclusions. Uprising is an awesome event and whilst it isn’t as big as some in the UK or USA the TOs do an amazing job keeping it organized and giving up a ton of their own time to answer all my stupid questions about where can my massive model fit. If you’ve gotten this far thank you for reading, and I strongly advise if you want to play a stompa with 130+ models make sure you have no existing back issues!
I have seen some of the reports, the mobility and alpha potential is real. But so is the glass bodies and cost. The scary stuff will be expensive, but will fold to something as simple as bolt fire. I know their showcasing but all reports i saw were losses for Eldar.
This does not mean squat though. Let's be patient and see point costs.
Jidmah wrote: Auto-takes for any faction tend to get a nerf under the new balancing approach. If something pops up in every list irrespective of that list's strategy, that unit is overperforming.
In my games, it's completely obvious that tankbustas are the game changer that makes me steamroll my enemies - the taktiks, the Badrukk enhancement and the stratagems are nice, but none of that would matter if I had to work with lootas or mek guns instead of tankbustas.
I agree it’s getting a points increase but the main reason tankbustas are in every list is because they are the only unit with decent AP outside dual saw meganobs. Our codex lacks AP -3 it was our biggest drawback and it’s partly why tankbustas exploded… I mean the mortal wounds also help the cause as well but ya they need to cost 140pts like breaks boys.
140 points would be an appropriate points adjustment IMO.
As Gungo said, if you nerf them too hard then people just go back to spamming Nobz and MANz and then people moan about that. And then if that gets nerfed I guess it goes to Snagga and Flash Git spam for AT.
Afrodactyl wrote: 140 points would be an appropriate points adjustment IMO.
As Gungo said, if you nerf them too hard then people just go back to spamming Nobz and MANz and then people moan about that. And then if that gets nerfed I guess it goes to Snagga and Flash Git spam for AT.
Yeah, it becomes cyclical and it's kinda hard to complain about it when we have minimal options for ranged anti-tank. We're not like marines, tau or guard where they have a huge selection of ranged attack profiles.
Jidmah wrote: If only we had five ranged units with unique guns on fast moving platforms... then a dataslate could easily update those to be worth a damn.
Don't remind me haha, we're paying for the supposed sins of 8th and 9th for SpeedWAAAGH! buggies actually being relevant firing platforms. I feel we'll have to wait till 11th ed to see if they get proper dataslates that can do a damn lol.
Make Buggies Great Again! (ideally with a Wazdakka model being our next SC release alongside Badrukk and Zagstruk...)
The same event - Lukas Troller - the name we already knew - 3rd with the Tactical with tons of flashgitz, tankbustas and breakaboyz in 5 trukks. Dakka dakka dakka!
Buggies need complete profile change to weapons to be viable. Points reductions won’t help. The kult of speed detachment rule isn’t even bad.. just buggies have no threat in a large unit with movement restrictions.
Da big hunt needs squig riders to have a slight points reduction… and really at least a strat to target a second unit with the detachment rule.
I think dreadmob is detachment much closer to being a competitively viable army. Tankbustas w shok atk bigmek or flashgitz with kaptain big Mek make the detachment viable… I just would like to see killakans special ability not be useless garbage and instead be +1 atk for hazardous and maybe make gork/Morkanaut (and stompa) to be effected by most of the detachment rules.
You can't have a kaptin in dread mob unless you are playing crusade.
Honestly, dreadmob kanz don't really have an issue with damage output, they have an issue with staying alive. Bump them to 7 wounds like scout sentinels and they will start to stick around long enough to bring those guns to bear.
Buggies are a whole different set of issues. Yes, the guns are terrible, but those buggies also die way too fast. At the very least they need more wounds and toughness, or the ability to join warbikers. Even the best gun doesn't help when a buggy just implodes to anything that remotely looks like a multi-melta.
Jidmah wrote: You can't have a kaptin in dread mob unless you are playing crusade.
Honestly, dreadmob kanz don't really have an issue with damage output, they have an issue with staying alive. Bump them to 7 wounds like scout sentinels and they will start to stick around long enough to bring those guns to bear.
Buggies are a whole different set of issues. Yes, the guns are terrible, but those buggies also die way too fast. At the very least they need more wounds and toughness, or the ability to join warbikers. Even the best gun doesn't help when a buggy just implodes to anything that remotely looks like a multi-melta.
Letting them join warbikers is an interesting concept, it makes me think of how the heavy weapon platforms can now join guardian defenders, it would make them our bigger, scarier equivalent of wolfquads in jackal atlan squads and give them ablative wounds and a different way of interacting with our army, particularly stratagems and making it more efficient for them. Would be cool if they did this.
Outside of that, yeah, they basically need a complete datasheet overhaul for each one, the fact that they have less utility than trukks who are cheaper and more relevant across several lists showcases how badly designed they are.
Forceride wrote: I am in complete agreement, i would go as far as say that anything done to buggies would be great what ever it is.
But we have to deal with the probability that this might only happen on next edition.
I think the fact that each datasheet for the buggies needs a complete overhaul means that it won't be touched on meaningfully in the balance dataslates. Usually GW might tweak and make an errata for an ability here and there, touch up the stats slightly like they did for DW Knights and Inner Circle Companions, but not for how much effort they would need to do for all the buggies in their entirety. So yeah, definitely a next edition thing. We might get a band-aid boost from a detachment or overall buggy rule, but it won't be nuanced the way we want it to be.
Agree. There is no chance to be competitive for Buggies any time soon.
Except the mentioned (uterly useless unfixeable datasheets + not so interesting and buggies problems solving detach rules) there are few other problems I see:
1. No characters. Warboss / Big Mek on Warbike in Legends and just the Wartrike remains. You cannot build an army around it.
2. Nob bikers or their equivalent are missing = not enough “troop” options.
3. Recent history of long and succesful competitive Speedwaagh epoche spanning over couple of rule books. Buggies was a think over most of the 9th. Due the business reasons and due the “make the game interesting” reasons, I seriously doubt about any chance for buggies in next 2 years.
As I said already couple of times, I see some patterns that repeats. Infantry and transports works now. My guess is the rise on Snagga units during 2025 Killrigs+Riders. They was not a big stars yet and they are a new models.
After that comes either some kind of a new army (tanks and grots?) or the refresh of walkers incl some new Meks and maybe some Mega Dread refurbish. And maybe after that come the refresh of the buggies.
However, we' ve got so much new models in last few years, I 'm seriously surprised we are getting more and more again and again. I don' t think other armies have so much attention.
Tomsug wrote: Agree. There is no chance to be competitive for Buggies any time soon.
Except the mentioned (uterly useless unfixeable datasheets + not so interesting and buggies problems solving detach rules) there are few other problems I see:
1. No characters. Warboss / Big Mek on Warbike in Legends and just the Wartrike remains. You cannot build an army around it.
2. Nob bikers or their equivalent are missing = not enough “troop” options.
3. Recent history of long and succesful competitive Speedwaagh epoche spanning over couple of rule books. Buggies was a think over most of the 9th. Due the business reasons and due the “make the game interesting” reasons, I seriously doubt about any chance for buggies in next 2 years.
As I said already couple of times, I see some patterns that repeats. Infantry and transports works now. My guess is the rise on Snagga units during 2025 Killrigs+Riders. They was not a big stars yet and they are a new models.
After that comes either some kind of a new army (tanks and grots?) or the refresh of walkers incl some new Meks and maybe some Mega Dread refurbish. And maybe after that come the refresh of the buggies.
However, we' ve got so much new models in last few years, I 'm seriously surprised we are getting more and more again and again. I don' t think other armies have so much attention.
Yeah, the support elements just aren't there. The Wartrike has basically no buffs or synergy with buggies or bikes to be honest, since the +1 to hit is basically irrelevant since warbikerz are not a CC unit and are basically just action monkeys at best.
Losing the regular Big Mek with KFF that actually works on vehicles as an aura (especially the Big Mek on Warbike variant from 8th ed) I think is the biggest blow, since Big Meks basically are useless (in contrast to their previously central role) for buggies, they have no abilities that either affect them since they can't join them as units, or they're far too slow to keep up. We definitely need a mobile Mek unit to keep up with buggies/bikerz that allows them to be relevant, or a revision in general to the Big Mek unit baseline rules so there's a reason to consider taking them in transports to follow along with the buggies and bikes.
Missed opportunity to be honest to have Big Mek riding a souped up Deffkopta, could be cool for it to be a lone Op near vehicles or allow them to join deffkoptas as a leader.
Actuly it is not a missed opportunidy Imho. It is a nice plan that is maybe in process already and comes to the market in few years. You cannot have everything. If you have everything, nothing new can come.
I am sorry Tomsug, but we have to agree we disagree. I am not entirely sure they have the acumen to make a decision so long into the future.
Now i can be wrong but i have no factual proof of GW being capable of that amount of 3d chess and forward thinking... On the contrary, it has shown that is absolute reactionary and difficult to change course.
Also it's true GW is egregious when it comes to business decisions and missing the entire forest, maybe country for the tree's..
We have seen this repeatedly.
I will reserve my judgment as to when we have the opportunity to see what they do with them.
And don't take the wrong from me, it's just i haven't seen till today evidence of a clear direction on GW part in just about everything.
Well, GW has become quite predicable as of late, since around the time Stu Black has started taking the lead for 40k design.
The primary goal for GW is clearly reducing production costs. Killing FW, demising finecast, reducing metal to pre-orders and replacing ancient sets wie newer ones (usually with less sprues) all work towards that goal.
The second type of release is "printing money" releases. They are redoing popular models, pick up nostalgic ideas from old editions and epic, fill obvious holes in armies' arsenals and release kill team boxes to reduce risk of having a new set collect dust on the shelves.
New releases without any consideration for their business value have become quite rare and most of them are just single character releases. If something from your wish list doesn't fall into either of the above categories, it is quite unlikely to become real. I would assign the best chances for a non-character plastic kit to grot tanks/grot mega tank, but absolutely with new weapon options that the resin ones don't have.
As for balancing, there is no conspiracy to be found. GW clamps down hard on overperforming units, regardless of the army's win percentage. If one unit is carrying the entire army to 47% winrate, GW will still nuke it. If there are no overperforming units, GW will apply point decreases or increases across to commonly used archetypes to raise or lower their overall win percentage. Last, for each dataslate they take a closer look at one or two armies not functioning properly and try to do something to either fix the internal balance or adapt their army/detachment rules to work better.
Of course, whether those measures archive what they are trying to do is a completely different topic.
Therefore, buggies would only have a chance to get a second pass this edition if GW would use one of their army-fixing slots. However, with 4-5 viable archetypes, I highly doubt that the ork codex is even taken into consideration for a second pass.
Forceride wrote: I am sorry Tomsug, but we have to agree we disagree. I am not entirely sure they have the acumen to make a decision so long into the future.
Now i can be wrong but i have no factual proof of GW being capable of that amount of 3d chess and forward thinking... On the contrary, it has shown that is absolute reactionary and difficult to change course.
We will see. Actualy, based on my profesional experience this is pretty simple type of 3d business chess GW is definitely capable of.
The “oh my gosh, they are stupid” moments we face comes from mostly from “efficienty first” on one side and absolutely unefficient “print the rules on the paper” on the other side. The problem that comes form the fixation on printed stuff is, that from the moment you approved the new rules on the highes councel, it takes half a year at least if you have a free hand and do not need any further approves. The result is that the rules comming out now are rules written year ago maybe… so have one rule app for the fix month fee like a netflix with the all rules - yes, that is super cool and handy. But it ruins the business with the nice color books. Old and new business models. THIS is a 3d chess
Well, it is a win-win if they actually do it. It requires listening to the consumer..
I do hope you understand my skepticism.
On another note, i am somewhat starting to prefer warhorde? For some reason the flashgitz combo is a unit my entire army depends on. Every single time i have miss played them, the game ends in a loss.
I am now considering squigs with stealth as body guards.
Flash gits plus a MA big mek and a trukk is a huge brick of points, so it's only natural that misplaying them makes you lose the game against a good opponent. They have a very low efficient range, so you kind of need to use them like a melee unit. Therefore you need to either bring them in from reserves in place where they can threaten multiple units (and make sure those units can't just run out of range), or you deploy them as close to the center of the board as possible without exposing them.
I've had some good success with stealthy Mozrog and 3+1 squigs, the regular squigboss not so much as he doesn't hit hard enough without enhancements.
Jidmah wrote: Flash gits plus a MA big mek and a trukk is a huge brick of points, so it's only natural that misplaying them makes you lose the game against a good opponent. They have a very low efficient range, so you kind of need to use them like a melee unit. Therefore you need to either bring them in from reserves in place where they can threaten multiple units (and make sure those units can't just run out of range), or you deploy them as close to the center of the board as possible without exposing them.
I've had some good success with stealthy Mozrog and 3+1 squigs, the regular squigboss not so much as he doesn't hit hard enough without enhancements.
Yeah, especially once your opponent has been exposed to the optimal firepower of the Flash Git Death Skwad, most players will factor their deployment of units accordingly to minimize ideal targets for you and try and make you overreach. This can also work in your favour by having your opponent constantly worry about their threat in the back of their mind if you put them in reserves and have them overcommit to killing them. As with most Ork lists, you want to do threat overload as much as possible so your opponent doesn't have an easy choice when it does arrive. Putting pressure on primaries and forcing them to split their attention is what you want to aim for.
Exactly. it's also worth keeping in mind that our units rarely get more than one or two good turns. You don't have to make a huge play with them during the first two turns if there is nothing worth doing.
Having your opponent hide from your shooty stuff might not be the most fun way to win, but it certainly is a way to win.
BL is starting to have a pretty strong track record of releasing books tied to models in game, and given that Mad Dok Grotsnik has been purged as a resin model but is a full on OG character tied to our main faction leader, it would be interesting if we see a proppa version of him in plastic when they inevitably enter the "Psychic Awakening" or "Arks of Omen" phase for 10th edition.
I'd be very happy if we got a new Grotsnik mini, even if I don't use it in a list. The current one is so old it barely looks like any more than a vaguely Ork shaped blob. It would be nice if we get rules for him that aren't Legends as well.
I'd like to see Wazdakka come back as well, he's been out of the game for a long time and it could mean that we get a dual purpose Warboss on warbike kit at the same time.
The same would apply to an Old Zogwort/Weirdboy kit as well.
Afrodactyl wrote: I'd be very happy if we got a new Grotsnik mini, even if I don't use it in a list. The current one is so old it barely looks like any more than a vaguely Ork shaped blob. It would be nice if we get rules for him that aren't Legends as well.
I'd like to see Wazdakka come back as well, he's been out of the game for a long time and it could mean that we get a dual purpose Warboss on warbike kit at the same time.
The same would apply to an Old Zogwort/Weirdboy kit as well.
That's what I'm banking on his model being a proper addition to the codex and not a Legends BL mini like Blackhawk was, given his history in the game being playable and existing in the lore for a while.
Unfortunately, GW has been moving away from dual purpose kits for a while now, barring a few rare exceptions, so as much as I would love Wazdakka and Old Zogwort as buildable kits, it seems GW wants to make bespoke models, particularly for characters, since I think that way they can make double the money out of you buying it separately for the generic HQ. The exceptions usually seem to be tied to larger models, so it depends on how big they make Wazdakka.
Neither Wazzdakka nor Zogwort ever had official models though... Weirdboy dual built kit would be an easy win though, so maybe we get lucky.
I can absolutely see Badrukk and/or Grotznik coming back if they do a 10.5 loop this time though. Both have appeared multiple times in recent lore and novels, and are key figures to orks as a whole.
I’d love wazzadakka, grotsnik, badrukk, nezzdreg or even zagstrukk..
Honestly we have just 1 finecast model left… and it’s fairly important so I suspect we get a new weirdboy/warpead model… if your lucky it will have a zogwart varient.
But I can definitely see a new warboss model with multiple builds as well.. as that model while plastic is also ancient. There are a ton of generic warboss named characters that can be part of those builds..
Jidmah wrote: I've seen rumors about the War of Armageddon drawing to a conclusion with a big win for the orks as the plot for 11th edition.
Which of our guys is stell left on Armageddon? Nazdreg?
Snikrot is well known for being active on Armageddon still and the new codex specifically calls out him in his fluff blurb as disdaining Ghazzy and other Orks ditching the war front for other scraps and his take on how the Great Rift has created daemonic incursions on the planet causing impromptu alliances of convenience/survival from Imperial Guard and Ork units to deal with the common threat of daemons making an additional front in the conflict. Snikrot sees this as a betrayal of the Ork war effort and has now extended his hit list to inclide Ork leaders and units who have collaborated with the oomies.
I don't think he should be the major leader though given his lone wolf approach with his Red Skull Kommandos.
Orkimedes might still be there? Not sure if he went with Ghazzy on his renewed WAAAGH! into the stars.
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Afrodactyl wrote: I thought Naz was off fighting the T'au, but I could be wrong.
Nazdreg disappeared fighting after continuing the War of Dakka against the Farsight Enclaves, he's presumed dead but most likely he tellyported somewhere else before he probably re-establishes control over the WAAAGH! that's splintered in his absence.
Minor things from the latest set of updates for us:
Skwad Leader confirmed to be Infantry models only, so no more Sneaky Squigosaurs.
Bomb Squigs confirmed to be one person unit, per phase. So no units releasing double Squigs, which is how most reasonable people were playing it anyway.
Yup, nothing huge, which is fine by me since I don't think there were any particularly pressing issues at the moment and these were all pretty common sense changes that needed touching up. I had a try with the Squigosaur combo with Kommandos, it's more a spectacle to see him infiltrating up with them more than practical but at least I got to try it once.
Grimskul wrote: Yup, nothing huge, which is fine by me since I don't think there were any particularly pressing issues at the moment and these were all pretty common sense changes that needed touching up. I had a try with the Squigosaur combo with Kommandos, it's more a spectacle to see him infiltrating up with them more than practical but at least I got to try it once.
Orks aren't supposed to be able to infiltrate big things... only the Guard could do that with Tanks.
In all seriousness, I'm not familiar with the double tapping bomb squigs. Guess it wasn't popular here.
Grimskul wrote: Yup, nothing huge, which is fine by me since I don't think there were any particularly pressing issues at the moment and these were all pretty common sense changes that needed touching up. I had a try with the Squigosaur combo with Kommandos, it's more a spectacle to see him infiltrating up with them more than practical but at least I got to try it once.
Yeah, it definitely was more about your opponent's (over-)reaction than actually being useful. Best target for the enhancement is the MA warboss anyways, so nothing lost here. Though, to be honest, I haven't used it in quite some time. Snikrot is way better, and adding an expensive warboss to a unit of kommandoz kind of defeats their point of being a suicidal disruption unit.
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Lathe Biosas wrote: In all seriousness, I'm not familiar with the double tapping bomb squigs. Guess it wasn't popular here.
Mind you it's a FAQ, not an errata. Using one bomb squig per turn was the right way to play it before. With the recent influx of bomb squigs in ork lists, I can see why many people might misplay it though. Having it spelled out is a good thing.
Jidmah wrote: I've seen rumors about the War of Armageddon drawing to a conclusion with a big win for the orks as the plot for 11th edition.
Which of our guys is stell left on Armageddon? Nazdreg?
I thought fully half the planet had warped into something akin to a Daemon World, with the Red Angel Gate open.
I mean there is an ork warlord who is literally in the warp having unending fights with khorne demons. So he could show up.
It would be sick to have Tuska be unleashed due to the nature of the warp spilling over into the Great Rift, but I have a feeling if he did somehow resurface, it would be as a blurb and not as a central character.
Mind you it's a FAQ, not an errata. Using one bomb squig per turn was the right way to play it before. With the recent influx of bomb squigs in ork lists, I can see why many people might misplay it though. Having it spelled out is a good thing.
The different wordings on different Bomb Squig abilities also create a bit of room to interpret it wrong. I remember directly comparing them at one point made it seem like one unit could use 2, but the other clearly could not.
I'd love a return to Armegeddon!
I regularly re-read Codex: Armageddon and the Ghazgull supplement so would love to the the story progress a bit more and how things have changed with the great rift opening.
Tankbustas +15, SAG +10, Mek Kaptin +10
Taktikal just one order and have to make BS test, if fail MW
+ the bomb squig restriction on Tankbustas. Stupid there will be a different rules for the same ability depending on the unit…
New Detachement seems to be pushing the Walkers a lot. Actually you can make a Nauts pretty crazy right now.
I 'm happy that my prediction about what will be pushed next was right. Time to paint some walkers imho…
The only problem is, I ' m slightly behind schedule in painting infantry and trukks. And I hold the plans. So my guess is I simply need to paint all orks first before I will allow myself to play anything
Or I stick with the wartribe as usually
Automatically Appended Next Post: Usuall modus operandi is “make something like it boost x but in fact it boost y”
So Dakka detachement boosting walkers will pump up the shoota boyz, lootas and tankbustas.
I don't know, the whole infantry and walker limitation is a huge missed chance to me. Pretty much all vehicles suck at shooting right now, giving them sustained hits 2 would at least have thrown speed freaks a bone.
As it is, this is just a better version of dread mob, as it does the same but without any characters. Not sure if it's enough to make kanz and shoota boyz viable though. Tankbustas will be stupid good in this detachment.
The detachment looks very strong just based on the detachment rule. It does however mean that Flash Gitz and Tankbustas become even more potent at shooting and will likely lead to them getting a hefty points increase based on the sins of a single detachment.
The rule should have been "gain sustained hits 1, if it already has sustained hits, increase it by 1". Still good, but not obnoxious.
I think the new detach looks solid, i am not much into shooting and tactical brigade nerf just killed it for me..
I think i am pivoting into warhorde.. i think even nerfed the new tankbustas with SAG complement what it's missing there, just need to think what to cut.
Also bomb squig nerf is lame, like Tomsug mentioned it needs visibility and went to a 3 from 2! At least make it flat 3 or 2 to compensate!
Honestly someone hates ork's at GW! We weren't even at the top... None of this was broken or OP, it does not make any sense..
Looking into double kill rig with 2 trucks full of tanbustas/SAG and lootas as shooting support. In my new lists..
Forceride wrote: I think the new detach looks solid, i am not much into shooting and tactical brigade nerf just killed it for me..
I think i am pivoting into warhorde.. i think even nerfed the new tankbustas with SAG complement what it's missing there, just need to think what to cut.
Also bomb squig nerf is lame, like Tomsug mentioned it needs visibility and went to a 3 from 2! At least make it flat 3 or 2 to compensate!
Honestly someone hates ork's at GW! We weren't even at the top... None of this was broken or OP, it does not make any sense..
Looking into double kill rig with 2 trucks full of tanbustas/SAG and lootas as shooting support. In my new lists..
GW have a history of taking the bat to Orks with little provocation.
I think the basis for the Bomb Squigs nerf is purely down to how many were being used. Most lists we were seeing at tournaments were taking Tankbustas as a 3-of, so 6 Bomb Squigs running around. Note that they haven't changed any of the other Bomb Squigs in the codex, because they're much less common and thus less of an issue.
I can see all of our Bomb Squigs ultimately going the same way, but using the TBs as a means of testing it before making a big sweeping change.
I would be fine if we had other stuff that was at the level of tankbustas or the SAG
Like i mentioned, people will still bring them, it's not the cost that is that is the issue. It's the lack of viable alternatives
if meck guns could do the same with their gun at 150pts i would bring them at a drop of a hat.
But yeah it really feels like GW hates us today.
Not even that annoyed about the squig changes. It's more of all changes at same time that create this massive feels bad. Since we are not dominating it also feels uncalled for..
Art of war commented on that, saw some reports. I might keep away from it like kryptonite.
I've not played with it, but it looks pretty darn strong. I'm just gonna stick to War Horde for the foreseeable.
I really don't understand why they would release Dread Mob, then Dread Mob +1, then Dread Mob +1 +1. They should have made Dread Mob actually incentivise taking walker properly, then released the Dakka (infantry and non-walker vehicles) detachment.
Speed Freekz are crying out for even an inkling of attention and gunline Orks get three detachments.
) my stompa before this edition is over.
which is actually very clever.
hehe
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