You can choose not to shoot some guns or models if you wish, to avoid hazardous checks.
Select Targets
Each time a unit shoots, before any attacks are resolved, you must select the enemy units that will be the targets for all of the ranged weapons you wish its models to make attacks with.
Regarding the Big Hunt - “selecet one CHARACTER unit” means “select one unit with the character leader inside” or “one single character not nested in some unit” ?
Tomsug wrote: Regarding the Big Hunt - “selecet one CHARACTER unit” means “select one unit with the character leader inside” or “one single character not nested in some unit” ?
Bloody huge difference!
Character unit should be any unit with a Character in it.
Character model would be that one model.
1. For those little bit confused in rules for detachement - you can choose just one. No soups
2. Bully boyz are incredibly good. Almost all of their strategems are good, powerfull, universal anddetachement have a great targets for these strategems. Nerfhammer is swinging around….
3. Buggies are trash. As I said before. Kult of speed could be build around bikes, koptas, planes and a single TRUKK with the INFANTRY. Let' s see what the FW rules show with the warboss on warbike and Nob bikers..
4. As I read it, the hot picks to paint and trukks (or transports generaly) and infantry (elite mostly). Even in the Kult of speed the biggest hit is a Trukk with the Nobz or something…
5. Beaststangass “Prey” is not as much limited as it seems.
6. Walkers on competitive level will run out of time due the huge amount of self exploding / random effect dice rolls.
7. Deffkilla wartrika seems to be effective in various detachements
Im not sure the Kult of Speed will be that bad. It will be able to play missions really well and you can do very good damage with stratagems and warbikers or deffkoptas i think.
Also the Lethal hits + Mek + Dakkajet combo seems really good. Im intrigued to try it out. But i do have other things i need to try first
Kult of Speed - the reason I say that is, that the datasheets are weak. Half amount of the dakka the units had in the late times of Speedwaaagh. It means post-all-nerfs-reasonable-amount-of-dakka. For the same price. So no real targets for the rules the Detach offer except Koptas, that dies in a stiff breez and grant the opponent tons on VP for destroied vehicles. But maybe I 'm utterly wrong and miss something. My knowledge of 10th ed comp games is pretty limited.
On the other hand I look more and more on Big Hunt. All Endhancement and half of the strategems is not limited to the Prey, incl. one allowing to take Killrig with the transported unit from the table after enemy fight phase a come back in your turn from deepstrike.
Or Beastboss leadit unit of Riders coming from deepstrike with the +1” coming from Beastboss. With full reroll on charge when charging a Prey? While ignoring all charge modifiers?
And the Pres can be except any unit incl. Char, so there will be almost anytime 2-3 targets for the prey. Good target? Honestly, I don' t know!
Kult of Speed will be the detachment that wins on points and good movement more than anything else.
Bully Boyz and Green Tide look really good, along with War Horde.
Dread Mob looks really fun, but I reckon it will be more of a rogue detachment that occasionally steals tournament wins. The odds of blowing up your own units will be what swings this detachment.
I've already made my thoughts on Da Big Hunt clear (I really like it).
Really liking this book so far. Now we just have to wait for points.
+ to be absolutely honest, I form my thinking about the new codex rules around the models I wanna paint and play during next year. I want to play a machines, not tons of infantry.
So for me, there are these options:
1. Kult of speed - I have 100% of the models available except nice conversion of the wartrike, I gonna do anyway. Mostly I' m on 100%+ of the max amount of the models allowed on the table. Maybe ad few koptas and bikers is possible. Only model I 'm do not have are the Nob Bikers. But is there a future for them?
2. Something build around BWs, Trukks etc - I have them. Some of them are without guns etc or lame paintjob. Boooring to fixing.
3. Walkers - I have just 2 meka/mega dreads in full paint and some half finished Deffdreads. So a lot of nice work before I can actually play. Like it. But I want to be sure, the detach works first.
4. My conversion of Beast snaggas to DreadSnaggas / roboorks - 70% done. Need more riders, maybe one more squat of BSboyz and 2 marvelous conversions of Rigs in front of me. That could work!
5. Mix of stuff above fitted in the Index detachement. Which is not bad either! +2 adv +2 charge strat, fight after dead, solid melee boost, good defence buff for Riders or bigger blobs of infantry, good enhancements… this could work too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Afrodactyl wrote: Kult of Speed will be the detachment that wins on points and good movement more than anything else.
Everybody say that.
But Buggies are pretty slow in fact. Theyr bases are huge. There is a terrible waste of the M around the corners. I drove them for almost a year so I know pretty well, what are they capable of - and what not.
The only fast action monkeys you have are 3 squads of warbikers. They die hard. That is good. But they are just 3/6 boyz on bikes. And just 3 units. Can be easily wiped out in turn or two. What next? Big hope for Kult of Speed are the Nob bikers. These can add 3 another squads with the Klaws. That could work.
Ou yes, and the telyporting SJD. But too expensive for what they actually do.
Build a list around these fast units, add a Trukk with the squad that charge after disembark + koptas for some dakka - that could work. Maybe? Missing some high S knight killing units. And some hard units that can stay alive.
Besides the cheese you mentioned for big hunt i still think kult of speed has more game then it. Don't underestimate move phase. games are lost and won, some time on a move, kult of speed has a lot in that department.
Either way it's too soon. I Wan't to do a green tide one and flood the board. Happy ork with it's lads!
Afrodactyl wrote: Oh yeah, it will 100% be a bikes, koptas and trukks detachment. Might even get some use out of Dakkajets.
Buggies are a bit naff at the minute, which is a shame.
The planes - dakkajet and wazboom - are dirty cheap at the moment and can do some dakka actualy.
BIG HUNT
/ edited to be right
Beastbossrider + 6 Riders with the 2 nobz
Sequence n1.
In Oponnent turn If he Falls back, you can move for 6” to any direction! Than if your opponent charge 6” from you, you can do HI for 0CP as another unit and charge with the +1” from beastboss (with full reroll on Prey) - this is another 2D6 + 3” movement. After charge comes the fight and after that you can take this unit from the table to deepstrike
Sequence n2
1. Have a BS riders with the bossrider in reserves.
2. Rapid Ingress and come from the reserves.
3. Charge with +1 and possibly full reroll to your prey + deal MW in charge
Have I mentioned, that 3 Rider + Nob used to be 185 and are 150p now according to the new dex sheet? Guess this should be ramped up!
Nice tricks. Very chess-like-playstyle.
All cost around 2-3 CP however….
Maybe look at kult of speed and look for what it can do, instead of searching for things it can't do?
The detachment clearly wants you to run 3 units of 6 warbikers, and probably 1-2 wartrikes to lead them. With blitza fire, you can get them to flash git levels of shooting and if they are lead by a wartrike, you can give them a 4++. SJD were borderline playable before, in that detachment they can freely jump around and pelt units with their rokkit and SJD while scoring points. Fasta than Yooz has more potential than people recognize and should be in every KoS army. You can put it on a beastboss/beastyboyz, a MA character/MANz or a warboss/nobz unit in a trukk, wagon or rig and have a durable melee threat of your choice in your opponent's face faster than you can say rapid ingress. Koptas benefit from both dakkastorm and speediest freeks, so one or two big units Honorable mention to the scrapjet and the wazzbom who benefit a lot from the detachment's abilities but might or might not be good enough depending on their price tags.
On top of that, you aren't limited to speed freeks anymore. So you can add flash gits, mek guns, gretchin, squig riders, stormboyz or snikrot or stuff holes. Flash gitz in a trukk (potentially with a buff mek?) could be a great supporting unit because you can drop a 4++ on the trukk.
Snazzwagons and KBBs weren't great and remained unchanged. Squigbuggy was meh and got worse. None of them have enough shots to compete with warbikers for the lethal hit stratagem, none of them have the quality to compete with koptas, scrapjets or the wazzbom for sustained hits Dakkajet feels like it should work well with the stratagem, but 6 extra shots or lethal hits aren't actually better than the Snazzwagon or KBB. Bommers aren't worth talking about.
So the bad news is that "pile of buggies" isn't a working army concept right now and makes me as sad as it does you. Running a super fast army that literally races across the board and starts the fight in your opponent's deployment zone T1 should absolutely be possible though.
That said, I'm totally going to play dread mob mek mob until I get sick of it. SAG leading lootas, MA mek leading MANz, Ufthak Blackhawk and big mek leading shoota boyz, mek guns, gretchin, solo snikrot, deff dreads, kanz, morkanaut... the list is practically writing itself.
A lot is going to depend on the cost of Squighogs and Meganobzz. Most of the detachments feel like they want at least some of them assuming their not priced out of play.
EDIT: Removed point 3 as i had clearly played it wrong by taking 4 hazard tests on melee deff dreads. They only need to take one.
Had my first Ork Codex battle versus another Ork player (a buddy of mine).
We used the current updated points (unless either of us had the new Bik Mek, or squiggosaur bosses or Mozrog, but we didnt).
I used a Dread Mob and he used the Bully boys.
I had Snikrot 1 Mek With 10 lootas 1 Shokk attack gun Big Mek with 3 Bubble chucka Mek Gunz 4x10 grots 4 Grot tanks w. Rokkits 6 Killa Kanz w. Rokkits 2x3 Killa Kanz w. Rokkits Gorkanaut Lone Mek to give Gorkanaut +1 to hit 3x Deff Dreads with Melee weapons only
I ended up winning with like 5 points or something (or something because we didnt play it out fully as i would win) but it was a narrow victory. Both made mistakes, like he comitted a lot to the middle objective and i forgot to use my reactive move on grots properly on many occations.
All in all many different mistakes but the hot takes i guess:
1: Taking hazardous tests is difficult to remember when you are not used to and have to do it so often 2: Actually just rolling for your dread mob test is relevant, least you want to take too many tests that kills you. 3: (REMOVED) 4: Its not a super durable army. Not many high toughness models have Grot vehicle or walkers keyword. Rather Glass cannon'ish 5: Rokkits, Rokkits, and more Rokkits. But even if you have many rokkits, you dont actually have many high strength guns. So lethal hits would be your best friend against actual tanks. 6: Mega Nobz are really really durable on waaagh Turns. Outside of it? Not so much! (Gorkanaut with +1 damage threw 5 Mega Nobz in the trash can with a sweep turn 4, outside of a waagh round) 7: Grots are great! always were, especially in this detatchment. Block the enemy off from charging you. Reaction move them. Do everything. And afterwards, reaction move your Grot tanks! 8: 2 Round Waaagh is Brutal 9: I am very unsure if i like Lootas or not. Lootas and a mek for 145 points.. Maybe the points are better else where. Or maybe if i had other targets than Mega Nobz or regular Nobz with -1 to wound it would be better. Mobile units are a must, like stormboyz.
Over all i really like that i can finally field Meks and walkers. Its very glass cannon ish though. and im worried about how good we play in to enemies that excels at shooting with high toughness models. I guess we could just force Lethal hits and all that, but in the end, you cant keep picking and doing hazardous tests. Sometimes you just gotta roll for the test.
Do Gorkanauts have a place in the list? Not sure. I feel like its too expensive and while it was definitely worth it for me against a non shooting army.... Shooting armies will just shoot him dead and off goes my 285 points. I cant figure out if i big models like that are worth it or if you should just spam Killa Kanz and Grot tanks really. My original list had both a Morkanaut and a Gorkanaut just to try out the units but i removed the Morkanaut in the end. I also removed my storm boys simply because i wanted to try out dread mob units but it really hurts when you have no stormboyz as Dread Mob. You can go through walls, you have no speed, you cant do anything that requires you to be specific places.
Tomsug wrote: Jidmah - ad KoS - yeah, you are right… but.. I think calling 6 biker squad shooting in KoS “flashgitz level” is a little bit bold….
They do get 10 lethal hits between them, irrespective of enemy toughness, and the wartrike adds another two. Follow up with a charge and drop the +1 to wound on them and they will tear a serious hole into pretty much anything.
Shoota boyz with the Mek? Huh?
To double-dip the buff in shooting and melee. Sustained hits and an extra -2 AP do a lot for the shoota profile.
If I did the math/rules right.....sustained hits 2 within 9" with the -1 AP and rapid fire:
5*6 = 30 shots
30/6 = 5 sustained hits *2 = 10
Against MEQ assuming no cover or AOC:
10*.88*.5 = 4.4
.33*.88*.5*30 = 4.356
E.g. about 8.8 unsaved wounds at damage 1 with 6 warbikers against MEQ. Cost 150 points, 1 CP, must be within 9". Sustained hits 2 doubles their output. Only one unit could do this a turn obviously. Assuming Intercessor models, that's 128 points worth of damage, a lot less if they're in cover. A lot less bad than most of the shooting options available currently, but not exactly Flash Gits. Wartrike could add another couple of wounds. You could move 12" + 6" advance for 27" range to pull off the shooting with a Trike.
If you could assault into the unit at +1 from the Wartrike, you could easily wipe a squad of 10 marines with damage to spare, especially with Full Throttle strat +1 to wound. It's definitely not a tickle gun with the strategem, and the lethal hits strat allows you to put some output into a second unit. The detachment ability provides a lot of flexibility for being able to pull this off repeatedly.
I agree that Warbikers are the obvious choice and should be mandatory include for the points in Kult of Speed.
To double-dip the buff in shooting and melee. Sustained hits and an extra -2 AP do a lot for the shoota profile.
Huuh, I see! These “Walker and Grot Vehicles” rules affect any unit that has a MEK leader = MANz, boyz, nobz, tankbustas, lootas.
As Bearddragon hinted already - Dread Mob can create really super random and due the extra dice rolls time consuming combinations that could be hard to manage. Play on the clock could be the best counter strategy
Automatically Appended Next Post: Simple 10 Boyz without the leader + Trukk could be a very popular choice imho for controling and cleaning the flanks and objectives. Cheap, pretty solid in CC, 10 bodies on 32mm base for good screening and STICKY OBJECTIVE + Trukk is the cheapest TANK SHOCK delivery machine = total max around 150p?
To double-dip the buff in shooting and melee. Sustained hits and an extra -2 AP do a lot for the shoota profile.
Huuh, I see! These “Walker and Grot Vehicles” rules affect any unit that has a MEK leader = MANz, boyz, nobz, tankbustas, lootas.
As Bearddragon hinted already - Dread Mob can create really super random and due the extra dice rolls time consuming combinations that could be hard to manage. Play on the clock could be the best counter strategy
Try tossing together a dreadmob army and count how many extra dice you actually need to roll. Then compare it to the time you need to advance and charge a single unit of boyz.
Anyone going to time because of the dread mob detachment rules has no chance of ever finishing a game with an ork army using any detachment that's not all stompas.
Plus, any time it makes a difference, you can just pick the trait you need in exchange for hazardous.
For 2 CP you can have a Morkanaut with full re-rolls to hit, +1 to wound and +1 to damage and sustained hits or rending. Sure, you are going inflict 6 MW on yourself, but whatever you were targeting is gone afterwards.
To double-dip the buff in shooting and melee. Sustained hits and an extra -2 AP do a lot for the shoota profile.
Huuh, I see! These “Walker and Grot Vehicles” rules affect any unit that has a MEK leader = MANz, boyz, nobz, tankbustas, lootas.
As Bearddragon hinted already - Dread Mob can create really super random and due the extra dice rolls time consuming combinations that could be hard to manage. Play on the clock could be the best counter strategy
Try tossing together a dreadmob army and count how many extra dice you actually need to roll. Then compare it to the time you need to advance and charge a single unit of boyz.
Anyone going to time because of the dread mob detachment rules has no chance of ever finishing a game with an ork army using any detachment that's not all stompas.
Plus, any time it makes a difference, you can just pick the trait you need in exchange for hazardous.
For 2 CP you can have a Morkanaut with full re-rolls to hit, +1 to wound and +1 to damage and sustained hits or rending. Sure, you are going inflict 6 MW on yourself, but whatever you were targeting is gone afterwards.
+1 to wound and damage is only versus Vehicles and Monsters though, but you can do the full reroll yes. Also if you go for full reroll and decide on your dread test rather than rolling it, and fire all your guns, you have 6 total guns that needs to take hazard tests. If you do that, you will probably lose more than 6MW i think, and you only have 20 wounds to begin with. Making you easier to kill now, on a model that isnt hard to kill to begin with.
The thought process does take a tiny bit of time because its not just "any time it makes a difference, pick the trait" because you also need to gauge what battle round you are in (to know how much longer this specific unit NEEDS to stay alive) and whether its worth it to take the mortal wounds. Its not always a clear answer given you damage yourself and your opponent damages you as well.
For instance with with the Deff dread, if you fail a single test, you are down to 5 wounds. And it has to take 4 tests every time you do melee (or shoots if you decided to go with 4x guns and shot with all of em, or 4x melee).
Point simply is, we are not a durable army. And we really dont want to take more damage than we absolutely have to because we will get shredded fast. I was not shredded fast because i played against melee orks, but what if you play against a shooting army? How many rounds will a 6 man unit of killa kanz survive, when 2 of them are down to 2 wounds from hazard tests? Not long.
So one really needs to gauge if its important to pick the trait, or go for hazardous tests in general. The fact that Ork shooting in general is very swingy doesnt really help on that matter. Because can these 2 units kill the unit i want to kill? I think so, so you start shooting, roll for your trait and get no hazard tests, and you failed. because you needed a 5 or 4 to hit. So it can swing a lot, which helps making the decision a little harder. Its a lot more difficult to make the math in your head, for what you expect to happen when you fire, with Dread Mob.
Anyway it didnt feel cookie cutter straight forward to me when i should pick the test or not. Well it was a bit, but if he was a shooty army it would be a lot harder.
For instance with with the Deff dread, if you fail a single test, you are down to 5 wounds. And it has to take 4 tests every time you do melee (or shoots if you decided to go with 4x guns and shot with all of em, or 4x melee
I would argue that in melee, you only take a single test, as per the dead choppy rule, the dread klaw is a single weapon that increases its attack characteristics and not 4 separate weapons.
Bossdoc wrote: I would argue that in melee, you only take a single test, as per the dead choppy rule, the dread klaw is a single weapon that increases its attack characteristics and not 4 separate weapons.
Yep, supported by the melee core rules which only let you make attacks with one weapon.
Bossdoc wrote: I would argue that in melee, you only take a single test, as per the dead choppy rule, the dread klaw is a single weapon that increases its attack characteristics and not 4 separate weapons.
Yep, supported by the melee core rules which only let you make attacks with one weapon.
Oh is that so? Yea I guess you only do take one test, because you can only attack with one melee weapon. I definitely took more tests than what I had to! I was so focused on using tests on each weapon during shooting that i forgot that isnt the case for melee Dreads.
For instance with with the Deff dread, if you fail a single test, you are down to 5 wounds. And it has to take 4 tests every time you do melee (or shoots if you decided to go with 4x guns and shot with all of em, or 4x melee
I would argue that in melee, you only take a single test, as per the dead choppy rule, the dread klaw is a single weapon that increases its attack characteristics and not 4 separate weapons.
This
Deff dreads with 4 klaws is the only way to play def dread.. go crazy on hazardous buffs because it’s a single test at a max of 1-2 on a d6.
Being competitive doesn’t matter on the bad datasheets it’s the good datasheets that make the difference.
Dread mob completely depends on grot tanks which look absolutely busted for thier cost in a dread mob.. playing around with Mek units makes a lot of other you it’s viable lootas look decent. Deff dreads with 4x klaws are good, meka/mega dread have play, Morkanaut is extremely cheap, heck meganobs with attached bigmek in mega armor actually does damage and massive durability. Killakans are cheap. Grot bombs with the mortal wound strat is just crazy good. This list is competitive but it’s not broken.
I truly believe greentide is just broken. Boyz cost so little for how good they are are stealing objectives and being extremely hard to kill. A 20 man blob that has a 5+/5++ reroll. And 5+++ that can return boyz and having to kill 120 of them is impossible for almost any army. It’s just incredibly boring and tiring to play competitively.
Bully boys will be the most played detachment becuase it’s almost as competitive as greentide and easier to play there is no hidden units to it. Spam mega nobs and nobs in transports. Use ghaz for fun here. Don’t forget to take a boy unit or stormboy unit for objective play.
Warhorde is good but not really changed.
Big hunt is good but middling like warhorde even considering squiggoths. Yes squigboys are very good but they are still kinda expensive and you can easily be outgunned with a squig spam list. This might be better as a varied list of squigriders, rig and beastboy list.
Kult of speed might be the weakest but this also depends on nob bikers and warboss on bike. But ya spam deffkoptas.
For instance with with the Deff dread, if you fail a single test, you are down to 5 wounds. And it has to take 4 tests every time you do melee (or shoots if you decided to go with 4x guns and shot with all of em, or 4x melee
I would argue that in melee, you only take a single test, as per the dead choppy rule, the dread klaw is a single weapon that increases its attack characteristics and not 4 separate weapons.
This Deff dreads with 4 klaws is the only way to play def dread.. go crazy on hazardous buffs because it’s a single test at a max of 1-2 on a d6.
Being competitive doesn’t matter on the bad datasheets it’s the good datasheets that make the difference. Dread mob completely depends on grot tanks which look absolutely busted for thier cost in a dread mob.. playing around with Mek units makes a lot of other you it’s viable lootas look decent. Deff dreads with 4x klaws are good, meka/mega dread have play, Morkanaut is extremely cheap, heck meganobs with attached bigmek in mega armor actually does damage and massive durability. Killakans are cheap. Grot bombs with the mortal wound strat is just crazy good. This list is competitive but it’s not broken.
I truly believe greentide is just broken. Boyz cost so little for how good they are are stealing objectives and being extremely hard to kill. A 20 man blob that has a 5+/5++ reroll. And 5+++ that can return boyz and having to kill 120 of them is impossible for almost any army. It’s just incredibly boring and tiring to play competitively.
Bully boys will be the most played detachment becuase it’s almost as competitive and easier to play there is no hidden units to it. Spam mega nobs and nobs in transports.
Warhorde is good but not really changed.
Big hunt is good but middling like warhorde even considering squiggoths.
Kult of speed might be the weakest but this also depends on nob bikers and warboss on bike. But ya spam deffkoptas.
Maybe its me but i feel like there are some statements here i dont fully agree with. I havent extensively used Grot tanks, but i dont see them as busted. They have 6 guns for 4, at a price of 155 points that arent too difficult to kill. At least i dont see them as difficult to kill, and their damage out put doesnt seem overly insane either. Like, point for point, you get more damage out of Killa Kanz i think. Killa Kanz dont have the reaction move of course and that makes grot tanks relevant. Also in the end you cant field more Killa Kanz, then you gotta recruit their grot tank counterparts.
But i dont consider grot tanks busted or directly cheap. I also dont really think Killa Kanz are that cheap for a ld8 model that only moves 6 inches. At least they are not durable for the price. I guess. But Killa Kanz and Grot tanks to me, do seem like the way forward. They are glass cannons but this seem to be the best way to use Dread Mob at my own first glance, with a ton of Rokkits. And Deff Dreads. Many "cheap" mechanical bodies that can deal good damage, but not really tank all that much them selves. The question simply is, can we field something that can actually tank? Or do they even need it to begin with. Maybe its about swarming the field with smaller robots.
One could use Mega Dreads or Meka Dreads. But they are in the 200+ point range and i feel like, the Mega Dreads dont have enough attacks to warrent that price tag, and the same goes for Meka Dreads. While all ork vehicles are like this, at least some are cheaper than others, or have an advantage of being a ranged unit. These units are not ranged units, unless you want to go for double kill kannon on the Meka Dread, if thats still possible. The amount of damage they deal is also nothing to really write home about, given none of them has a sweep profile, so i dont think ill be incorporating them in my army.
You can give it -1 damage and maybe it helps but i still feel like any type of las cannon or melta type will just.. erode these dudes and your -1 damage wont matter. That info was from someone who has only looked at the Mega/Meka Dreads, but not actually used them in a Dread Mob so i could be wrong.
I wonder if the best tank isnt just a battlewagon with Ard case? If you want someone to soak up damage. Maybe throw some Mega Nobz with a big mek in there too. Not sure.
Also i dont think the Morkanaut is any where extremely cheap. its almost 300 points for a model with a 5++ with no way of giving it -1 damage or giving it a 4++. I tried a gorkanaut in my previous list and that was fine but i will try out the Morkanaut next Which i deem will do better. But i wouldnt exactly call a morkanaut cheap either, nor difficult to kill.
My first thought would be that Killa Kanz, Deff Dreads and Grot tanks w many grots and stormboyz/snikrot for mission play, is the way forward. Im unsure if sinking 300ish points in to one model (morkanaut) is the competitive choice. I mean it might, at least you have that one model that can trash enemy vehicles when needed untill it dies.
Grot tanks have better movement 10in and can be taken in units of 4-8..
you can put a single strat on them as a whole to reduce damage characteristics by 1 (durability) or increase wound roll and damage characteristics by 1 or reroll hits (Damage).
This is important considering the amount of shots by grot tanks.. whereas killakans seem more like a rokkit body grot tanks are more a kustom megablasta body.. which benefits from the multiple stacks of hazardous.
A unit of 8 grot tanks is 20x shots of a kustommmega blasta at str 9 ap-2 d6 with +1 wd, +1 damage with either sustained hits, lethal hits or ap-2 on 6 your choice.. and each model rolls a max of 1x hazardous test at 1-2 on a d6. That’s brutal shooting… heck if you are in rapid fire range it’s probably worth shooting the big shoota with +1 wound/+1 dam and sustained/lethal hits. I’d take another hazoudous test for 5x str5 +1 wound, 2dam and extra hits on 6 X8
Take a unit of meganobs, attach the bigmek w mega armor add the stealth relic and enjoy nearly unkillable unit at 1+ armor save, that can heal and bring back a body each turn.
The meka dread can use its heal ability on itself. To heal 3 wounds each turn AND add 1 to hit roll making it essentaliy bs4+. This makes the dual killkannon version a great shooting platform. D6x2 +6 shots and you can use almost any strat on it.
Personally I think the deff dread is the best melee platform with 4 klaws.
Imho, a single unit auf 8 grot Tanks is too unwieldy to be competitive viable, and can easily be neutered by tagging in CC - blast weapon in combination with weak CC is not great. Basically any dread mob will give up full points on bring it down, so secondary play against any army that is capable of fulfilling one of the other fixed secondaries reliably will be very hard. I really like the rules, they seem absolutely viable for decent tournament placings and give lots of options for playable fluff lists, but they probably will not dominate in highly competitive settings...
Bossdoc wrote: Imho, a single unit auf 8 grot Tanks is too unwieldy to be competitive viable, and can easily be neutered by tagging in CC - blast weapon in combination with weak CC is not great. Basically any dread mob will give up full points on bring it down, so secondary play against any army that is capable of fulfilling one of the other fixed secondaries reliably will be very hard. I really like the rules, they seem absolutely viable for decent tournament placings and give lots of options for playable fluff lists, but they probably will not dominate in highly competitive settings...
then take a unit of 4x they are still incredible shooting platforms to push it with hazardous rolls.
The Meka dread as I said before heals itself and is a good shooting platform… the deffdread with 4x klaws is probably the best melee platform.
The Morkanaut isn’t just a gorkanaut with +1 invul… its the best walker to benefit the most from the reroll hit strat. It also gets +1 to hit during waggh shooting.
I think Kustom Mega Blastas on a dread mob unit sounds wild considering SOMETIMES we want to not take hazard tests. But shooting those units you cant avoid it.
Also why are the Grot mega tanks better Kustom mega blasta bodies? Their defensive profile is identical to a killa kan with 5 wounds and toughness 6, with a 3+ save.
Id say if you absolutely needed kustom Mega Blastas they are better on Killa Kanz, because Killa Kanz will potentially end up in melee, and Kustom Mega blastas are not blast. So you could shoot your targets in melee, where as the Grot Mega tanks dont really wanna be tagged, so they would be fine with Rokkits. unless they are meant to use their SCATTER ability to move IN to the enemys face to block off charges, and then be charged and Killa Kanz counter charge? I have no clue. Again i have only used them in this edition once. If that was the case i guess mega blastas are okay.
Also one massive group of grot tanks is a heft investment of points. I dont really know. I think i would run Grot tanks in units of 4. And i would be really afraid of using kustom mega blastas in general. If i have a Morkanaut already, which is what i wanna try next, then that guy will probably receive the reroll to hit. If hes dead then my 6 man unit of Killa Kanz or the 8 Grot tanks. But 8 grot tanks... can i even move that around properly. No clue really.
I would have to try it out though.
Im not sure im sold on Meka Dreads though with double kill kannons. Currently the profile isnt blast for some reason, and your 2 guns will average around 12 shots total i think. Which then becomes 6 hits after you heal yourself and get +1 to hit. And then only AP2 damage 2 after you wound what ever you wanna wound. For 210 points i think i would rather have more killa kanz or Grot tanks with rokkits.
There are many things i need to try. But i CAN say, that i was not entirely sold on the Lootas!
Beardedragon wrote: +1 to wound and damage is only versus Vehicles and Monsters though, but you can do the full reroll yes.
Also if you go for full reroll and decide on your dread test rather than rolling it, and fire all your guns, you have 6 total guns that needs to take hazard tests. If you do that, you will probably lose more than 6MW i think, and you only have 20 wounds to begin with. Making you easier to kill now, on a model that isnt hard to kill to begin with.
What else would you want to shoot with that kind of damage? Six weapons overheating on 1 or 2, is an average of 2 failed tests, which each deal 3 MW to yourself. Depending on your target, you might even skip the two big shootas and bring you chance down 1.33 failed tests. And that's just happening if it's actually worth using those stratagems. You don't have to use those stratagems on the naut- kanz, mek guns and grot tanks can doe the same, plus any unit led by a mek (lootas or shoota boyz) can also make use of the extra damage stratagem, potentially with extra sauce from one of the enhancements.
The thought process does take a tiny bit of time because its not just "any time it makes a difference, pick the trait" because you also need to gauge what battle round you are in (to know how much longer this specific unit NEEDS to stay alive) and whether its worth it to take the mortal wounds. Its not always a clear answer given you damage yourself and your opponent damages you as well.
The mortal wounds aren't guaranteed though, even if your gun is hazardous already.
For instance with with the Deff dread, if you fail a single test, you are down to 5 wounds. And it has to take 4 tests every time you do melee (or shoots if you decided to go with 4x guns and shot with all of em, or 4x melee).
It takes just one test for melee. You pick one claw to fight with and add an attack for every other one you have. As prime targets for the klankin' klaws stratagem, I would absolutely not go for 4x guns. I am thinking about running rokkits though, so I can shoot them without damaging myself. I'm probably going to run both KMB and rokkits for some time and see what works better.
Point simply is, we are not a durable army. And we really dont want to take more damage than we absolutely have to because we will get shredded fast. I was not shredded fast because i played against melee orks, but what if you play against a shooting army? How many rounds will a 6 man unit of killa kanz survive, when 2 of them are down to 2 wounds from hazard tests? Not long.
You have full control over how much damage you take. You can just roll a trait and be better at shooting and melee, even if it's not the perfect trait. Every third unit will have the perfect trait and often enough the second best trait isn't far behind.
So one really needs to gauge if its important to pick the trait, or go for hazardous tests in general. The fact that Ork shooting in general is very swingy doesnt really help on that matter. Because can these 2 units kill the unit i want to kill? I think so, so you start shooting, roll for your trait and get no hazard tests, and you failed. because you needed a 5 or 4 to hit. So it can swing a lot, which helps making the decision a little harder. Its a lot more difficult to make the math in your head, for what you expect to happen when you fire, with Dread Mob.
Anyway it didnt feel cookie cutter straight forward to me when i should pick the test or not. Well it was a bit, but if he was a shooty army it would be a lot harder.
Essentially you are just saying that the army takes a lot of skill to play right or it blows up in your face. And sometimes no matter what you do, it blows up in your face anyways or your opponent's face or both. That's exactly what I am looking for
I think i've figured out a way to use lootas for maximum effect. They want to move to get LOS on their target (so they don't get shot first), which will be on an objective (for full re-rolls), but have BS6+ and Heavy. So what you do is strat reserve them in a trukk, rapid ingress and disembark behind the trukk out of sight. In your turn the trukk moves and the lootas are stationary and lined up to fire on the target.
PaddyMick wrote: I think i've figured out a way to use lootas for maximum effect. They want to move to get LOS on their target (so they don't get shot first), which will be on an objective (for full re-rolls), but have BS6+ and Heavy. So what you do is strat reserve them in a trukk, rapid ingress and disembark behind the trukk out of sight. In your turn the trukk moves and the lootas are stationary and lined up to fire on the target.
A trukk is full of holes. It will never be able to block anyone from shooting the Lootas. If i understood what you said correctly.
Yeah, the models i'm using it would be fine, but what i'm proposing doesn;t work anyway 'cos they are not able to disembark (out of phase rules). Back to the drawing board!
From what I can see out of the codex, it's all strictly upgrades on what you want to use. Because, it's not like Boyz on Trukks got worse, far from it. Just, whatever other thingy you want to use got better.
Good codex!
(I hope the Tzeentch/ 1kSons codex ends up as good as this)
- Squighog boyz with the full set od Chars like a mighty fist with the +1 to charge
- Kill Rigs with the BSboyz like a support + cast a +1S around
- one Boyz + Weirboy unif jumping around with the sticky objective
- 2 x Trukks with the Stormboyz having anytime 15,5” move + charge for free.
T1 everything on the table is either T7+ or hidden. Kill the anti infantry and rule + target oversaturation. Old ork tactics…
Even without the prey, they can kill a lot.
Various moving sheneningas.
As a first list of the new codex it is pretty sure, theist is very much wrong incl my assumption that Da Big Hunt is a thing. But it seems to be a way. In long term - GW will support the BS units as a new models, so they stay alive for few years.
First question need to be asked is - is such a list better as Da Big Hunt or War Horde?
Da Big Hunt
- double Tank shock with Da Big Hunt?
- get the unit from the table and back?
- reactivw move?
- adv and charge on hog riders?
War Horde
- all units affected by sustain hits
- all units +2 adv and +2 charge via strategem
- ard as nails or hog riders!
- better enhancements!
Not sure about the "better enhancements" part. Sure, 'eadwompas stands out, but otherwise snagga enhancements are on a similar level, if not better.
That said, I'd probably drop Mozrog and combine the two units of hogs. To me he feels like a downgrade compared to a squigboss with the either of the damage enhancements.
Jidmah wrote: Not sure about the "better enhancements" part. Sure, 'eadwompas stands out, but otherwise snagga enhancements are on a similar level, if not better.
That said, I'd probably drop Mozrog and combine the two units of hogs. To me he feels like a downgrade compared to a squigboss with the either of the damage enhancements.
Mozdrog and the riders - yeah, the whole hog / hogbosses think need to be proofed and re-evaluate, starting with the final price tag.. Mozdrog ability gives the “mighty fist” interesting redundancy in combination Orks is never beaten. 2 mighty charging units that is irelevant to intervene, they will smash you anyway.
War Horde vs Big Hunt - what interest me are basicly these aspects:
1. SPEED - +2/+2 adv and charge is a lot and Follow me ladz add another 2”. Beastboss leaded Hog boyz move than 12+5,5=17,5” and than charge with +3” in total = 27,5” threat range with pretty reliable 7 or more on charge roll. THAT is a think! Combine it with the Stormboyz jumping out of the Trukks etc… And you can use it every turn on any unit in your list.
2. Stormboyz and jumping Boyz - sustained hits and strategems that affects them helps them a lot. Squad of Stormboyz could NOT kill 10 guardsmen. Marginally, but this margin is a important. And again - speed for scoring and small problems solving is very important and BS units lack such units. These solve the problem and add sticky objective to it.
3. Durability - 1 large squad od Hog will be N.1 target. There is no way how to increase significantly it' s durability in Da Big Hunt. Yeah, you can get a cover… -1 to Wound role is definitely a think.
4. Large Hog units - this worry me a little. They are hard move, impossible to hide a will be cripled by all kinds “your attack sucks and this and that” tricks from the opponent. Plus they overkill a lot. This have to be proofed. Maybe 3 squads of 6 will be the ultimate solution, maybe just 3 without the bosses…. Don ' t know…
Tomsug wrote: Mozdrog and the riders - yeah, the whole hog / hogbosses think need to be proofed and re-evaluate, starting with the final price tag.. Mozdrog ability gives the “mighty fist” interesting redundancy in combination Orks is never beaten.
His ability only triggers in combat, more often than not after you have charged and even then only every other time. Any time you are getting shot at, you killed the unit you charged or the unit you are in combat with has no noteworthy melee, it won't do anything. Even if it should trigger, your unit might have been whittled down through shooting already and having a single squighog fight isn't exactly something to write home about.
Meanwhile, the squigboss has two abilities that help your squigs to get into combat faster.
2. Stormboyz and jumping Boyz - sustained hits and strategems that affects them helps them a lot. Squad of Stormboyz could NOT kill 10 guardsmen. Marginally, but this margin is a important. And again - speed for scoring and small problems solving is very important and BS units lack such units. These solve the problem and add sticky objective to it.
Honestly, I wouldn't bother with jumping boyz for the snagga detachment. Just get another mob of Beastsnaggas and put them in strategic reserves.
And at least for me, stormboyz haven't been good at killing anything, sustained hit or no. I'll gladly replace them with new lone operative Snikrot unless his price has become prohibitive.
4. Large Hog units - this worry me a little. They are hard move, impossible to hide a will be cripled by all kinds “your attack sucks and this and that” tricks from the opponent. Plus they overkill a lot. This have to be proofed. Maybe 3 squads of 6 will be the ultimate solution, maybe just 3 without the bosses…. Don ' t know…
Agree, but it heavily depends on the price tags of both the character and the mobs. By the way, unit size is 4 or 8 now.
I feel like the -1 to wound relic would make one big unit a great bullet sponge though. Grinding through 26 T7/4+/5+++ wounds before you get to the squigboss is not simple task when even your big guns need 3s and 4s to wound.
Heads up for FW unit lovers, they've just been added to the legends section for the 40k pdf downloads, so grot tank supremacy in tournies from Dred Mob ain't happening anytime soon :(
I'm personally miffed that my Meka dread and mega dreads got canned so quickly, would it kill them to give us a year at least before legending them into oblivion?
No real surprise. A lot of this stuff has been miserable to acquire for a decade or more. Mek stuff has always been pretty third class until this Codex put some real work into them, so I'm not surprised part of that involves culling a bunch of stuff that's always been powerful but not terribly accessible.
For me this is a final reason to finish my conversion of Beast Snagga fantasy to W40k scifi robo orks. It gives me about 2 years of play until something happen. And my guess, we are ahead of couple of years jumping between. Beast Snaggas - oldschool - Buggies and back.
After this FW massacre, most of our army models are new. I 'm not sure, but just the Votans and Ad Mech have such amount of brand new models? Any other army has such a high % of new models? Definitely not so many…
My point is - in next 5 years, I do not expect any bigger wave of new models. Character there, tankbustas there… that is all.
So let' s go to paint the newest units. There is a biggest chance you won 't be scrapped.
It' s fun, isnt it? They make literly a “Grot vehicle” detachement and scrap most of the grot vehicles in the same time, huh?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And one more guess - next setting of the ork army will be the tanks and in that moment, they scrap the Kans and Dreads.
I can use my nob bikers as nob on bikes for warbikers… but the warboss on bike and Meka dread are dead… I never went crazy on fw stuff because of this. Warboss on bike has been such a good unit for so long too saved the ork codex by itself in several editions.
The garg squig is probably an oversight I can’t see them keeping that unit.
This missing units will change my rankings for the detachments. Like dread mob goes down a notch. Still bullyboys and greentide on top but I think warhorde is likely better then dreadmob now. Even speedfreaks took a small hit without the warboss on bike mostly because the wartrike just doesn’t have a strong enough melee profile with snagga klaw.
This means tankbustas are our only resin model left.. (assuming garg squig is gone too)
Tomsug wrote: Jidmah, maybe it ' s a nice moment to close this thread and open the new one? Or do you wait for Saturday?
I'm not going to open any more threads. Dakka seems to be dead set on killing off its active 40k community, and I'm not going to get in their way. Either we keep using this one, or someone else creates a new one.
Pretty much my only reason to post here anymore is to answer to the few orks still sticking around after all those years.
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gungo wrote: The garg squig is probably an oversight I can’t see them keeping that unit.
Definitely not an oversight. When they massacred the Chaos and Marine units, they literally told us that anything not titan sized will disappear and used the garg squiggoth as an example of what type of units will stick around.
Even speedfreaks took a small hit without the warboss on bike mostly because the wartrike just doesn’t have a strong enough melee profile with snagga klaw.
Snagga klaw has had the same profile as the PK since the beginning of 10th. The main difference between the two has been base size and the vehicle keyword.
Tomsug wrote: Jidmah, maybe it ' s a nice moment to close this thread and open the new one? Or do you wait for Saturday?
I'm not going to open any more threads. Dakka seems to be dead set on killing off its active 40k community, and I'm not going to get in their way. Either we keep using this one, or someone else creates a new one.
Pretty much my only reason to post here anymore is to answer to the few orks still sticking around after all those years.
Ohh come on! First FW and now this? I don' t want to scroll down a hundrets of meaningless posts of FB/Reddit that will be lost in few weeks. You can 't scrap such a nice oldchool forum with organized reports from CI and few but quite interesting posts per week. Quality over quantity! I don ' t give a damn about the rest of the dakka dakka. My only threads are your ork ones!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Points are out. I don' t see anything exciting. Stompa for 800p
I couldn’t quite understand the article on Warcom. Are the points released today or the ones in the book released on Saturday the most up to date ones now?
No wolves on Fenris wrote: I couldn’t quite understand the article on Warcom. Are the points released today or the ones in the book released on Saturday the most up to date ones now?
Today is right. Codex points are “unce upon a time…. “
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Beardedragon wrote: No real changes. But Snikrot did remain at 85 points despite getting Lone Op
Yeah, like Jidmah said - for this price Snikrot is a new cool guy.
Squihog Boyz +35pts for 4 (but has the nobz included now)
Honestly these points are incredible for us alot of people thought meganobs were going up. And we had decreases across the board. Nobs going down is silly. Because the nob is included squigriders went down in price. The normal Beastboss was already good price too. Beastboss on squig changes are appropriate since the profile took a hit.
The only thing that didn’t matter was flashgitz which are still fairly bad without badrukk.
I still think meganobs is going to see a nerf especially with necrons, eldar, etc all taking point hits today. It really should be only a 5+++ on Waagh. Let’s hope orks as overly dominant as I think they are going to be this season. Still bullyboys, greentide, and warhorde on top for me. I’m sad forgeworld took such a strong hit that really took dreadmob down a notch. The bigmek in megaarmor point hike didn’t help it either.
Looks like they're pushing the squighog pretty hard in terms of points with the drop for both the boss on squigosaur as well as the Nob being built into the group, I expect to see at least 2 6 block units being used in most lists, especially since they benefit a lot from the double WAAAGH! from Bully Boyz (unless I'm mistaken in terms of keywords).
Also, feeling pretty sad that the Stompa didn't at least budge a LITTLE bit in terms of points, even with Dred Mob that guy is nowhere near worth 800. Maybe 500-600 range. You would assume him being part of the box set would do something but whatevs. Oh well, I'll be using him for funzies later this Saturday so I'll let you guys know if my Necron opponent kills him first or if I do with all my Hazardous rolls.
Grimskul wrote: Looks like they're pushing the squighog pretty hard in terms of points with the drop for both the boss on squigosaur as well as the Nob being built into the group, I expect to see at least 2 6 block units being used in most lists, especially since they benefit a lot from the double WAAAGH! from Bully Boyz (unless I'm mistaken in terms of keywords).
No nob keyword on squighogs. It's no different from a nob in any other unit now (though the big choppa being S6 feels like a typo). The beastbosses gained "warboss" though, so that way they could benefit from two Waaagh!s, but not from any enhancements nor stratagems.
A full unit is 6 hogs and 2 nobz, for 320. 450 If you add a boss, with another ~20 for an enhancement. As a side/downgrade for 35 points over the normal boss, Mozrog is pretty much dead.
More than one unit would seriously drop your unit count, I somehow doubt that it would be a viable army. On the plus side, you would be able to relive the old double nob bikers days of 5th
Also, feeling pretty sad that the Stompa didn't at least budge a LITTLE bit in terms of points, even with Dred Mob that guy is nowhere near worth 800. Maybe 500-600 range. You would assume him being part of the box set would do something but whatevs. Oh well, I'll be using him for funzies later this Saturday so I'll let you guys know if my Necron opponent kills him first or if I do with all my Hazardous rolls.
Former super-heavies, fortifications and flyers have a fixed place in GW's poison cabinet. They will not take any risks in fear of making any of them even close to competitive.
Grimskul wrote: Looks like they're pushing the squighog pretty hard in terms of points with the drop for both the boss on squigosaur as well as the Nob being built into the group, I expect to see at least 2 6 block units being used in most lists, especially since they benefit a lot from the double WAAAGH! from Bully Boyz (unless I'm mistaken in terms of keywords).
No nob keyword on squighogs. It's no different from a nob in any other unit now (though the big choppa being S6 feels like a typo). The beastbosses gained "warboss" though, so that way they could benefit from two Waaagh!s, but not from any enhancements nor stratagems.
A full unit is 6 hogs and 2 nobz, for 320. 450 If you add a boss, with another ~20 for an enhancement. As a side/downgrade for 35 points over the normal boss, Mozrog is pretty much dead.
More than one unit would seriously drop your unit count, I somehow doubt that it would be a viable army. On the plus side, you would be able to relive the old double nob bikers days of 5th
Also, feeling pretty sad that the Stompa didn't at least budge a LITTLE bit in terms of points, even with Dred Mob that guy is nowhere near worth 800. Maybe 500-600 range. You would assume him being part of the box set would do something but whatevs. Oh well, I'll be using him for funzies later this Saturday so I'll let you guys know if my Necron opponent kills him first or if I do with all my Hazardous rolls.
Former super-heavies, fortifications and flyers have a fixed place in GW's poison cabinet. They will not take any risks in fear of making any of them even close to competitive.
Oh thanks for the clarification, I kind of figured you needed the Beastboss on Squigosaur to benefit from the double WAAAGH! so I guess the cost is a bit prohibitive now that Meganobz have been left untouched and Nobz actually went down, but I think one block with a Beastboss should be still pretty good for most Bully Boyz lists to have some reach on the board without relying on transports.
And yeah, you're right, super-heavies are basically in this weird spot where GW are allowing them to be used in regular games but almost begrudgingly, barring Knights because that's their thing, since Apocalypse is basically not a real thing anymore since they've stopped supporting the weird one and done game mode with them.
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Beardedragon wrote: Is it really a buff though? I have yet to try them but they lost +1 to hit from the Nob.
So now they hit on 3s and 4s. So over all i would say their damage just went down.
Offensively they took a bit of a hit, but I think in terms of the options available and buffs from detachments like Bully Boyz and just having the Beastboss be able to always keep up and give their reroll charges and free heroic intervention makes them more versatile overall compared to before.
ccs wrote: Thankfully tourney play isn't the only way to play.
Sorry for any of you who play non-tourney games with 's who demand that you not use all the rules GW supplies.
The issue with legends is not that some wanna-be tournament winners are afraid of them.
The issue with legends is that GW stops updating them regularly. They will become incompatible to the current rules, any unit with bad rules or points will remain that way for at least one edition.
Just look at the legends document we had to use in 9th. It referenced rules that didn't exist anymore, had keywords that didn't match the codex, had profiles which didn't match non-legend units.
In addition GW keeps reducing units sizes, removing rules, removing options and nerfing them. Most of them become inferior, copy+paste versions of codex choices.
Examples are big guns, kannon wagon, warboss on warbike and lifta droppa.
And then there is the the issue of them removing datasheets completely removing them without a warning.
Just look at Da Red Gobbo on Bouncer, Zardsnark da Rippa or the Kustom Stompa... no wait, you can't.
GW essentially told you that your entire grot tank collection will eventually be nerfed into insignificance in roughly *checks calendar* two years and disappear completely on an unmodified roll of '1'. Congratulations?
Beardedragon wrote: Is it really a buff though? I have yet to try them but they lost +1 to hit from the Nob.
So now they hit on 3s and 4s. So over all i would say their damage just went down.
Squighogs went from 125 for 3 to 160 for 4. (Ignoring the extra atk and the extra str on nob in melee and extra wound) it’s a slight points cut per model.
The beastboss on squig has a completely different profile and use. It’s no longer the hard to kill tarpit and is now a warboss for squig riders. The nob on squig role is gone. The beastboss now adds a bit more damage to your Squighog unit and slightly more reliable charges. (+1 to charge rolls NOT rerolls)I’m not sure that’s worth 130pts and mozrog is overpriced for 165pts. He has a better invul and a bit more damage per wound but thier issue is ap-1 isn’t going to cut it.
This is ignoring detachment bonuses which does help especially the beastsnagga detachment which helps these models lack of ap on atks. But there is NO enhancement on bullyboys that will help a beastboss on squig. What does help with bullyboys is if you attach a beastboss on squig they get a 2nd turn of +1 str, +1atk, 5++ and advance and charge which is useful and maybe worth the 130 cost.
In bullyboys, squigriders aren’t all that. Thier primary role should only be hunting vehicle and monster units since meganobs and nobs do almost everything else better. Nobs with warboss in trukk are fast and do much more damage. Meganobs with megaboss can tellyport and will do okay damage.. ghaz and meganobs are just an absolutely terrifying but expensive and slow brick. From there it’s just adding objective secured boys with attached warboss.
Now that the dust has settled and we have the points values, what are you guys going to be running while testing things out?
I'm still going to be trying out Big Hunt, but I am going to go with big blocks of Snagga Boys in Hunta Rigs over smaller ones in trukks (mostly so I can keep using my Squiggoth model).
Like someone else said earlier I think going for more than one full sized hog unit with a boss is a trap. It's a minimum of 450 points and you torpedo your board presence if you go for more than that. Goonhammer are recommending 16 hogs and 3 bosses, which is absolutely mental.
I also think that on your singular Squigboss you take either Surly As A Squiggoth to have the unit be obnoxiously tough in the midboard, or Glory Hogs to get the turn 1 charges in.
I don't think hogs will really have a place in bully boys detachments, they overlap too much with Nobz and MANz without standing out in any particular way. Maybe one unit with a boss, but otherwise I think I'd rather have more Nobz or scoring units.
I think Bully Boyz is similar to Big Hunt in the sense that they come with a built in trap; with list builders becoming hyper focused on what is really good on paper and then realising that they're only deploying 3 or 4 super expensive units on the table and getting out played on points. Remember to put your point scorers in your lists before your toys fellow Warbosses
After having my first "funzie" game with Dred Mob, I'll be checking to test out how well I can pull off ranged units with Big Meks with their buffs I can attach them to, so 20 man units of boyz, and lootas, and see if I can take advantage of lethal hits/sustained hits as needed, and how much I can leverage killa kan spam with deff dread support. It looks like Gorkanaut is still superior over the Morkanaut, but I'll be testing both out as well to see if they can give us enough punch.
New to Orks really, so I'm going to stick to the Index a bit and try some basics. Right now we've got a 1000 point league and planning to build off of 3 Trukks with 2 Boyz and Nobz plus Gretchin, Ghaz and a coupe MegaNobz. Planning to see how that works and go from there.
LunarSol wrote: New to Orks really, so I'm going to stick to the Index a bit and try some basics. Right now we've got a 1000 point league and planning to build off of 3 Trukks with 2 Boyz and Nobz plus Gretchin, Ghaz and a coupe MegaNobz. Planning to see how that works and go from there.
That's not a bad core, though if you're planning on adding things down the road, currently a couple of min 5 man squads of Stormboyz are useful for being action-caddies for objectives and just getting into the corners of the board for things like investigate signals. Regular warbosses on foot are also a solid bet given the versatility of who they can join in your current list and generally they hit hard and combo very well with the Nobz bodyguard rule.
LunarSol wrote: New to Orks really, so I'm going to stick to the Index a bit and try some basics. Right now we've got a 1000 point league and planning to build off of 3 Trukks with 2 Boyz and Nobz plus Gretchin, Ghaz and a coupe MegaNobz. Planning to see how that works and go from there.
That's not a bad core, though if you're planning on adding things down the road, currently a couple of min 5 man squads of Stormboyz are useful for being action-caddies for objectives and just getting into the corners of the board for things like investigate signals. Regular warbosses on foot are also a solid bet given the versatility of who they can join in your current list and generally they hit hard and combo very well with the Nobz bodyguard rule.
Forgot to put down that the list has a Warboss in the list with 'Ere We Go and I've got 10 Stormboyz painted up but just didn't have the points to include. Painting up some Squighogs and a Deffkilla group next after which I'll be close to having enough things painted up to think about how I want to top off the list. I feel like I've got at least 1x of the must haves outside of apparently Snikrot, but enough to paint that I'll have an idea of what I should double up on by the time I ready to expand.
Grimskul wrote: After having my first "funzie" game with Dred Mob, I'll be checking to test out how well I can pull off ranged units with Big Meks with their buffs I can attach them to, so 20 man units of boyz, and lootas, and see if I can take advantage of lethal hits/sustained hits as needed, and how much I can leverage killa kan spam with deff dread support. It looks like Gorkanaut is still superior over the Morkanaut, but I'll be testing both out as well to see if they can give us enough punch.
I heard the Morkanaut was superior to gorkanaut in a dread mob. Hmm.
LunarSol wrote: New to Orks really, so I'm going to stick to the Index a bit and try some basics. Right now we've got a 1000 point league and planning to build off of 3 Trukks with 2 Boyz and Nobz plus Gretchin, Ghaz and a coupe MegaNobz. Planning to see how that works and go from there.
That's not a bad core, though if you're planning on adding things down the road, currently a couple of min 5 man squads of Stormboyz are useful for being action-caddies for objectives and just getting into the corners of the board for things like investigate signals. Regular warbosses on foot are also a solid bet given the versatility of who they can join in your current list and generally they hit hard and combo very well with the Nobz bodyguard rule.
Forgot to put down that the list has a Warboss in the list with 'Ere We Go and I've got 10 Stormboyz painted up but just didn't have the points to include. Painting up some Squighogs and a Deffkilla group next after which I'll be close to having enough things painted up to think about how I want to top off the list. I feel like I've got at least 1x of the must haves outside of apparently Snikrot, but enough to paint that I'll have an idea of what I should double up on by the time I ready to expand.
Oh nice! In that case you have a very solid foundation that covers the key units of the codex from what I can see so far, so really from this point on it's just a matter of what kind of archetype you want to lean into but thankfully the new detachments all look pretty solid and fun to play (speed freeks are a bit on the weaker end, but still solid if you aren't going too far into buggies which it doesn't look like you are).
Grimskul wrote: After having my first "funzie" game with Dred Mob, I'll be checking to test out how well I can pull off ranged units with Big Meks with their buffs I can attach them to, so 20 man units of boyz, and lootas, and see if I can take advantage of lethal hits/sustained hits as needed, and how much I can leverage killa kan spam with deff dread support. It looks like Gorkanaut is still superior over the Morkanaut, but I'll be testing both out as well to see if they can give us enough punch.
I heard the Morkanaut was superior to gorkanaut in a dread mob. Hmm.
I think it's because of the deffstorm megashoota benefitting a lot more from the "push more" mechanics, since it has the number of shots that works well for both sustained hits or lethal hits depending on the target and it has a stronger melee profile without really worrying too much about hazardous.
I think if the kustom mega zappa for the Morkanaut was at least S12, then it would be palatable to take him, but as is at S10, it means it's not ideal anti-tank since a lot of stuff is T11 or higher for the enemy units, meaning you're forced to use 1CP to get the +1 to wound and damage strat, and with existing hazardous weapons it can be a risk when the Morkanaut's already taken damage. I'm not 100% sure since I still need to test them out, but I feel the Morkanaut needed some stat changes for their guns to make it a superior shooting option.
I go give a try to Hog riders, Rigs and all these stuff in War Horde and ada Big Hunt to see. A lot of option from 3x8 nonsence to storm of MSU of different types. In 2 years perspektive these models will be supported in various ways.
I ´ m actually pretty sad about the Dread mob. I think this is a last time to play this walkers and I have a tons of plastic ready, but aľost nothing painted except two Mega Dreads so I ´ m afraid the Dread Mob will be scrapped before I finish the painting.
But maybeee maybeee I gonna change the plan? We ´ ll see… I gonna take a few months on TTS to evaluate what playstyle fits me the best.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus the Hogs are closest to what I like to play - fast mobile and killy army. And because buggies are lame, Hogs are the closest I can get.
Honestly, part of the reason I'm kind of happy about the Forge World cuts is just that I've always felt like they've held back GWs willingness to play in the Mek design space. Like every time they've pushed it, its just resulted in a run on Grot Tanks and all the community dissent that entails.
Dread Mob feels like someone cared and part of me believes that comes from being able to design around the codex models. Hopefully that means we'll see that space explored more in the future, as its clearly a place where Orks could have some really solid new kits.
LunarSol wrote: Honestly, part of the reason I'm kind of happy about the Forge World cuts is just that I've always felt like they've held back GWs willingness to play in the Mek design space. Like every time they've pushed it, its just resulted in a run on Grot Tanks and all the community dissent that entails.
Dread Mob feels like someone cared and part of me believes that comes from being able to design around the codex models. Hopefully that means we'll see that space explored more in the future, as its clearly a place where Orks could have some really solid new kits.
Your point is interesting and maybe your are right. There used to be a mystic pointles WALKERZ keyword already in the old codex. That and Dread Mob that is definitely an interesting, fun, thematic complex and propably even usefull set of rules indicates more than just a plain “last chance do make some money on the old models”.
Sooner or later there will be some new models. And it is a simple circle - buggies was rewamped old buggies. Now we have rewamped kommandos, deffkoptas, ghazzy. Beastsnaggas are super deep and radical rewamp. What next? Walkerz, tanks, some elite infantry is all whats left? I have to go through the old codexes I have to check, what am I missing.
Yeah, tanks - kill krusha, now killtank, battlefortres, grot tanks. That could be an interesting new army there is absolutely no indication of anything like this and the old model was scrapped two days ago. Sowe have to wait 2-5 years before it becames even a topic.
So yes. There is some love into the walkers and it make a logic to see them as new way. New Mek model indicates the same.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I see the cut of the FW models positive just in the single perspective. Cut menas stop of the production which doubles tripples or even more increase the price of the resin I have in the shelf. Good for me.
Beardedragon wrote: Can anyone here explain to me what happens when a unit of 3 killa kanz fails 2 hazardous test?
Do 2 of them take 3 damage, or do they take a total of 6 mortal wounds, which kills 1 and leaves 1 kan on 4 wounds?
You kill them off one at a time, no spreading of wounds.
Hazardous: When you declare attacks with Hazardous weapons,
you must take a Hazardous test for each of those weapons, even
if you did not resolve those attacks (e.g. because their target
was destroyed).
When a unit that includes one or more Characters equipped with
Hazardous weapons fails one or more Hazardous tests:
■ You can select any model equipped with a Hazardous weapon
to suffer the effects of that failed test (it does not have to be the
Character, even if that Character was the only model that
attacked with a Hazardous weapon).
■ If you select a Character, and there are excess mortal wounds after
that Character is destroyed, allocate those mortal wounds to the
unit as normal.
When you fail Hazardous tests for a Character, Monster or
Vehicle unit:
■ You must allocate the results of failed tests to the same model
equipped with one or more Hazardous weapons until that model is
destroyed, or until you have resolved each failed Hazardous test.
■ When that model is destroyed, you must allocate any excess mortal
wounds first to another model equipped with one more Hazardous
weapons, then you must allocate the results of any remaining
failed Hazardous tests to that model until that model is destroyed,
and so on, until each model with one or more Hazardous weapons
has been destroyed, at which point you must allocate any excess
mortal wounds and any remaining failed Hazardous tests to the unit
as normal.
This can only be good. I mean, hell, my 1kSons Magic Knights/ Evil Sunz mek'd list went down in points too.
It's a good day to be green. Or dusty. Hell, I'm probably going to do a "counts as" list back the other way too. Because what are Rubrics in Rhinos, really, when you get right down to it, other than Burna Boyz in a Trukk?
You have 3 killa kanz, you fail 2 tests. 2 of them takes 3 mortal wounds so you have 2 killa kanz on 2 wounds and 1 on 5.
However, if you afterwards fail yet another test on one of the damaged ones, you would take 2 mortal wounds on one model, and the last mortal wound spills over to another model.
So you could essentially have one dead, one on 1 wound, and one on 5.
''Hazardous weapon that was just used by rolling one D6. For each roll of 1, that test is failed and one model in that unit equipped with a Hazardous weapon is destroyed (selected by the controlling player), unless that model is a CHARACTER, MONSTER or VEHICLE, in which case it suffers 3 mortal wounds instead. ''
You could argue that only the model that you select suffers mortals, and they don't spill over onto the unit if the model is destroyed.
Played this way, you could fail 2 tests, and take 3 wounds each off two different kans. Then you fail a test next turn, and take it on a different killa kan. Dunno.
Im just thinking the text above that reads: You must allocate the results of failed tests to the same model equipped with one or more Hazardous weapons until that model is destroyed, or until you have resolved each failed Hazardous test. ■ When that model is destroyed, you must allocate any excess mortal wounds first to another model equipped with one more Hazardous weapons, then you must allocate the results of any remaining failed Hazardous tests to that model until that model is destroyed, and so on, until each model with one or more Hazardous weapons has been destroyed, at which point you must allocate any excess mortal wounds and any remaining failed Hazardous tests to the unit as normal.
Would indicate that i have to allocate them on to the next model, i think
I'm a little late to the party, but I have heard a rumour that the ork codex has been leaked and that some people have it as a pdf. Is this true? I know that that the codex is on release from GW, but the thought of there being a pdf version is certainly intriguing...
Finished my first game with Dread Mob against a LoV player I used to struggle with, and completely crushed it. Highlights: + Holy gak, lootas (+SAG) with bigger gitz stratagem were vicious. Almost felt like going back to 7th edition loota star times. They killed two sagitaurs in one turn and wasted a unit of warriors before half the unit had killed itself and the other half was wiped easily due to being double-judged. + Smoky Gubbins on A MA big mek is insane. It took nearly the entire votan force (including two of those hammer squads charging them) two turns to grind them down to 2 MANz (one wounded) before I broke them out of combat with kanz and a dread. The squad regenerated afterwards and proceeded to hold the center objective for the entire game. + Best loadout for my dreads was 1x rokkit and 3x klaws. The rokkit wasn't essential, but I was glad to have some shooting on the dread and didn't need yet another melee attack. KMBs are better guns, but zapping yourself for 3 MW right after spending CP on a stratagems to reduce damage really feels like a big brain move. + Shoota boyz actually managed to kill things through shooting! Between re-rolling ones and da button they somehow turned into barely good enough to actually work. They actually gunned down a squad of pioneers (though the big mek helped) and wiped another one by charging. Later they fought on an objective for multiple turns, but had to fight for four turns since they didn't have a warboss. I'll probably change that next game. + MANz with kustom shootas don't feel bad to shoot anymore either. + New big mek is decent. Moving through terrain is a really nice ability for boyz to have and the drilla is a surprisingly strong close combat weapon that made a difference every single combat. I had the KMB on him since I actually own the ancient metal "Big Mek with Kustom Blasta" from 2nd which somehow is legal to play again. + I rolled for the buff every time. Even when I rolled the worst of the three in any given situation, it still had a notable impact unless I didn't roll any sixes. From a gut feeling I'd say the impact on a melee focused unit like MANz is roughly the same as the wartribe buff is, for anything shooty it's obviously way better. o I had no use for the re-roll to hit stratagem. Due to my gretchin being obliterated turn 1, I just didn't have the CP to use it on kanz, and on dreads or mek gunz it felt wasted. The detachment is quite CP hungry as all of the stratagems have big impact and only cost 1 CP a piece. o The "ignore cover" relic is cheap as chips, but at the same time made little difference to the loota unit. Might be a better fit for shootas? - Rokkit kanz weren't impressive, though I rolled badly. Their melee was ok, but they were gunned down for VP right after they exposed themselves. Will try grotzookas next time. - The "roll twice" relic is way to expensive for providing just one buff one out of three times. - The thing I miss the most from wartribe is 'ard as nails. Infantry dies a lot faster when you can't just slap -1 to wound on the most valuable unit.
It's a really fun army, but you must build around the detachment rule in order to make it work. For larger games, I'm absolutely going to pack a naut - with Gorkanaut probably being the good choice and Morkanaut the fun one.
Beardedragon wrote: Im just thinking the text above that reads: You must allocate the results of failed tests to the same model equipped with one or more Hazardous weapons until that model is destroyed, or until you have resolved each failed Hazardous test. ■ When that model is destroyed, you must allocate any excess mortal wounds first to another model equipped with one more Hazardous weapons, then you must allocate the results of any remaining failed Hazardous tests to that model until that model is destroyed, and so on, until each model with one or more Hazardous weapons has been destroyed, at which point you must allocate any excess mortal wounds and any remaining failed Hazardous tests to the unit as normal.
Would indicate that i have to allocate them on to the next model, i think
TL;DR: If you shoot with six kanz, you make 6 hazardous tests. If you fail 3 of those tests you apply 9 MW to your unit as if they were from any other source.
I went to a local small tournament with a Dread Mob and it didnt go well. But to be fair, i just wanted to ram a lot of vehicles down and even then i didnt play it properly. I move blocked myself a lot and i should have definitely had something that could go through walls, other than grots and stormboys.
I had a shokk attack gun big mek with my 3 KMB Mek Gunz, and he had gitfinda googles, and the fact that i got to ignore that 1 AP is essentially the same as them having AP 2. So they did pretty well. I also had a Gorkanaut and a Morkanaut. I dont think its wise to have both, and i used the full reroll to hit mainly on the morkanaut.
Also ran 6 Killa Kanz with rokkits, and 2x3 Killa Kanz with rokkits. Those did fine. As did the Deff Dreads with melee weapons, except sometimes they died a bit too fast. And i apparently suck with using Snikrot, despite having played my tyranids pretty fine and avoiding the death of my smaller lone op characters. This time apparently not so.
I had no Lootas with a mek, because last i used them in my first dread mob, i was fighting orks bully boys. I guess its because i mainly shot at Mega Nobz, so.. a rough target, but they didnt do all that much. My Mek Gunz this time, however, did a lot. Maybe ive gotten angry with Lootas but they just dont look that great, decent at best, like you only hit on 5s, if you stand still. And its not difficult to kill 10 boys standing still. So thats why i kinda went over to Mek Gunz. But its still early stages, i still need to find out what makes most sense.
Over all a very fun army, but i definitely need to try out adding infantry to this army. I thought about 20 boyz in a battlewagon with a mek and a warboss, but for choppas, not shootas. I should definitely incorporate Big Mek in mega armor with Mega Nobz.
Morkanaut and Gornakaut in 1 list seems like.. not the best choice i feel. Im not sure.
Interesting picture of the Blood Axe Warboss and next to him a Nob with banner.
The Blood Axes could be a conversions but was wondering if this a hint GW are planning for the future a series of warboss’’s and Nob Banners for each of the 6 clans?
I don't really see a reason to put a character with mek guns.
The reason why lootas did so well for me is that big shells on them is busted when you get 3 shot per model and they do 3 damage per failed save. When you can't use the stratagem, you probably shouldn't aim them anything well armored and definitely not at anything with 3 wounds. I honestly can't think of a worse target than MANz.
Jidmah wrote: I don't really see a reason to put a character with mek guns. The reason why lootas did so well for me is that big shells on them is busted when you get 3 shot per model and they do 3 damage per failed save. When you can't use the stratagem, you probably shouldn't aim them anything well armored and definitely not at anything with 3 wounds. I honestly can't think of a worse target than MANz.
I had the Big mek with shokk attack gun to reroll hit rolls of 1, and he wants to be stationary too just like mek gunz. or rather they dont "need" to be stationary but only move 3 inches so they are pretty damn stationary.
They only get reroll 1s to hit if they shoot someone at full strength, so i just wanted to always have that.
And yea, Lootas in to a bully boyz army was just terrible didnt really matter what i shot at.
But honestly, in most cases, i used my reroll hit rolls and / or bigger shells for bigger gits on my Morkanaut anyway. So even if i had lootas they wouldnt get the stratagem thrown on them. I also used those stratagems on the Mek Gunz. Sometimes on my Gorkanaut. But yea i gotta experiment with a few things. I dont think 2 titanic models is great, but i do think a Morkanaut has uses. My gorkanaut sadly was, in one game, sniped turn 1 because i was an idiot, and its problem being, the lack of an invul save of 5+, making the morkanaut a better choice for me in a dread waaagh. Also the Morkanaut just shoots "harder", which i like.
Can I get clarification on what points values to use for the Orks? If the army book came out on April 27th, and the 1.8 points update came out April 25th, I'd assume I should be using the army book points. But the 1.8 points update clearly had the army book in mind since it has the detachments, updated unit sizes etc. Also, the points in the army book seem pretty high. I know this was asked before, but I've been looking around for clarification and am getting conflicting answers; some say use the book, some say use the 1.8 points update, some say a points update is coming, but that might have meant the 1.8 update. I'm using the army book for now since it's the latest release.
Apocros wrote: Can I get clarification on what points values to use for the Orks? If the army book came out on April 27th, and the 1.8 points update came out April 25th, I'd assume I should be using the army book points. But the 1.8 points update clearly had the army book in mind since it has the detachments, updated unit sizes etc. Also, the points in the army book seem pretty high. I know this was asked before, but I've been looking around for clarification and am getting conflicting answers; some say use the book, some say use the 1.8 points update, some say a points update is coming, but that might have meant the 1.8 update. I'm using the army book for now since it's the latest release.
For all 10th edition codices, past and future ones, there is a digital release with the actual points when the codex goes on sale.
GW even posts an article saying so for every single codex.
The points printed into the books have no relevance whatsoever unless you live under a rock and/or have no access to the internet.
Truth be told, the only people confused by this are people who still mistake dakkadakka for a source of 40k news.
Apocros wrote: Can I get clarification on what points values to use for the Orks? If the army book came out on April 27th, and the 1.8 points update came out April 25th, I'd assume I should be using the army book points. But the 1.8 points update clearly had the army book in mind since it has the detachments, updated unit sizes etc. Also, the points in the army book seem pretty high. I know this was asked before, but I've been looking around for clarification and am getting conflicting answers; some say use the book, some say use the 1.8 points update, some say a points update is coming, but that might have meant the 1.8 update. I'm using the army book for now since it's the latest release.
For all 10th edition codices, past and future ones, there is a digital release with the actual points when the codex goes on sale.
GW even posts an article saying so for every single codex.
The points printed into the books have no relevance whatsoever unless you live under a rock and/or have no access to the internet.
Truth be told, the only people confused by this are people who still mistake dakkadakka for a source of 40k news.
I wouldn't put it that harsh because I see the same question asked over and over again on other channels. As well as people posting their datasheet from Grukk from 7 years ago asking if these rules are still valid...
Having suffered through the 2nd edition Sylvaneth idiocy when GW was very specific in their "whatever points happened to reach you last" mentality.... I get it.
The good news is GW has improved on this front. They won't update points in a physical document. The current points are always the MFM and/or the app regardless of the state of releases for any given faction.
Granted, there's been some issues with pre-release codex timing (poor Tau) but hopefully GW has learned that's just not a great plan.
So just had a 2k point game against Hypercrypt Legion Necrons using Dred Mob. It was more of a tester game to let us try out new stuff without pushing too hard into cutthroat competitive lists, but overall I'm pretty happy with the detachment. You definitely have to lean into having a Gorkanaut/Stompa to take advantage of Dakka Dakka Dakka to its fullest since I feel 6 man kanz squads usually aren't in complete range of their targets with their large bases and slow movement. I was using a Stompa supported by a Mek and it took pretty much all my CP and pushing it with lethal hits to one shot a C'tan shard of the Void Dragon in shooting (lethal hits make the big shootas actually worth shooting), for a return roll of 9 mortal wounds from hazardous which was worth it IMO. The Stompa proceeded to kill the Deceiver in close combat and one shot a Monolith at range, so while I don't think its worth 800 points, it definitely feels like a proper super heavy when supported by the strats and the detachment rule. Main thing that was disappointing for me was the Lootas I put with the new Big Mek, I'm wondering if I should swap them out for a boyz squad instead with shootas to take advantage of the movement ability of the new Big Mek. Deff Dreadz didn't have many ideal targets but I think against a more conventional list they would have more to do than squat on certain objectives. Snikrot was MVP in getting me early game engage on all fronts and then behind enemy lines, so I can see him being auto take until they jack up his points.
I was able to also actually do the mission rules fairly well even though I invested a lot into the walkers, which compared to before, was really nice.
Probably going to try out either Green Tide or Bully Boyz next.
Lootas are a difficult topic. If you spend bigger shells on another unit, they are just regular lootas with slightly more hits going through. Which means that the two KMB pretty much do all the heavy lifting. They have some value when they camp on objectives, but since you want gretchin for CP (and their hilarious stratagem) anyways AND boyz can sticky objectives now, I'm not sure you actually need them outside of a backup plan in case your naut blows up early.
That said, I will always chose a SAG over the new big mek for lootas. It's 5 points less, provides the same buff and has a way better gun than the new git - even when moving. The situational re-rolls on the SAG are nice as well, plus its profile matches the KMBs for target selection.
Currently my list has 3 big meks - SAG with lootas, MA big mek with MANz and 1 KMB/drilla big mek with 20 shoota boyz.
Lootas are a difficult topic. If you spend bigger shells on another unit, they are just regular lootas with slightly more hits going through. Which means that the two KMB pretty much do all the heavy lifting. They have some value when they camp on objectives, but since you want gretchin for CP (and their hilarious stratagem) anyways AND boyz can sticky objectives now, I'm not sure you actually need them outside of a backup plan in case your naut blows up early.
That said, I will always chose a SAG over the new big mek for lootas. It's 5 points less, provides the same buff and has a way better gun than the new git - even when moving. The situational re-rolls on the SAG are nice as well, plus its profile matches the KMBs for target selection.
Currently my list has 3 big meks - SAG with lootas, MA big mek with MANz and 1 KMB/drilla big mek with 20 shoota boyz.
Yeah, it was definitely a mistake to go for the new shiny of the updated Big Mek rather than the SAG, the KMK range is too short to synergize with the Lootas and the Traktor Kannon is basically a waste of time. I'll probably give lootas another go since it's been forever since I've used them.
How were the MANZ? Did you take them on foot and throw them midfield to plomp themselves on the objective? I believe you gave them kustom shootas or the kombi weapons? Were they worth keeping in terms of shooting? Just wondering if they add a dimension to the list that having more walkerz doesn't bring (besides recursion from the MA Big Mek).
I'm definitely disappointed that Bully Boyz is so lacking in enhancements and strategems outside Meganobz. Double WAAAGH is such a fun rule but those models are so flat and dated, I really have no desire to drop a bunch of cash on them beyond the 3 I bought to hide Ghaz in. :(
LunarSol wrote: I'm definitely disappointed that Bully Boyz is so lacking in enhancements and strategems outside Meganobz. Double WAAAGH is such a fun rule but those models are so flat and dated, I really have no desire to drop a bunch of cash on them beyond the 3 I bought to hide Ghaz in. :(
There's a decent number of alternative sculpts from third parties that look much more dynamic and orky. I have the artel ones, though those are more warboss sized tbh. And I know many people convert AOS Orruk Brutes into mega nobz.
LunarSol wrote: I'm definitely disappointed that Bully Boyz is so lacking in enhancements and strategems outside Meganobz. Double WAAAGH is such a fun rule but those models are so flat and dated, I really have no desire to drop a bunch of cash on them beyond the 3 I bought to hide Ghaz in. :(
I ran a 1k bully boyz last weekend.
Warboss with MA (tellyporta) with MANz, 10 Nobz w/ Warboss, and a full unit of boyz with Warboss (extra wounds) and Pain Boy and Snikrot.
Gotta have that one, two, three punch with the waagh, in my opinion. Let the opponent worry about the big bad MANz. The full Nob squad with a Warboss does the real work.
Beardedragon wrote: Wait. You guys go for KMBs on your Lootas? i always go for Rokkits to avoid their timely death
I think because having 3 flat shots for a total of 6 in a full squad is worth it even if they roll a 1 or 2 when you're doing the Hazardous tests since it means much more consistent damage output, particularly if you factor in rerolls when the squad usually shoots.
LunarSol wrote: I'm definitely disappointed that Bully Boyz is so lacking in enhancements and strategems outside Meganobz. Double WAAAGH is such a fun rule but those models are so flat and dated, I really have no desire to drop a bunch of cash on them beyond the 3 I bought to hide Ghaz in. :(
There's a decent number of alternative sculpts from third parties that look much more dynamic and orky. I have the artel ones, though those are more warboss sized tbh. And I know many people convert AOS Orruk Brutes into mega nobz.
Yeah, I've seen lots of nice options. I'm just weary of anything that's got a sculpt that's itching so bad to be replaced and in general try to avoid spamming things in general. More of a rule of 2 guy. Need to focus on finishing painting what I've got anyway and by then I'll see some results and get some ideas of where I should expand. Just finding some of these detachments demand a little more spam than I'd like, but War Horde is well rounded enough that I'm not really bothered.
LunarSol wrote: I'm definitely disappointed that Bully Boyz is so lacking in enhancements and strategems outside Meganobz. Double WAAAGH is such a fun rule but those models are so flat and dated, I really have no desire to drop a bunch of cash on them beyond the 3 I bought to hide Ghaz in. :(
There's a decent number of alternative sculpts from third parties that look much more dynamic and orky. I have the artel ones, though those are more warboss sized tbh. And I know many people convert AOS Orruk Brutes into mega nobz.
Yeah, I've seen lots of nice options. I'm just weary of anything that's got a sculpt that's itching so bad to be replaced and in general try to avoid spamming things in general. More of a rule of 2 guy. Need to focus on finishing painting what I've got anyway and by then I'll see some results and get some ideas of where I should expand. Just finding some of these detachments demand a little more spam than I'd like, but War Horde is well rounded enough that I'm not really bothered.
Ah gotcha. That's fair and Meganobz are an older kit at this point in time that it wouldn't surprise me if they updated it to be less modular and more focused to have a dakka/choppy dichotomy in terms of wargear (though I assume this would happen an edition or two from now, or maybe an upgrade sprue kit if they're ever added to Kill Team).
Beardedragon wrote: Wait. You guys go for KMBs on your Lootas? i always go for Rokkits to avoid their timely death
I think because having 3 flat shots for a total of 6 in a full squad is worth it even if they roll a 1 or 2 when you're doing the Hazardous tests since it means much more consistent damage output, particularly if you factor in rerolls when the squad usually shoots.
Just to be sure ive understood it fully.
If my unit takes hazard tests, if the KMB dude fails, he cant give that failed roll to someone else can he? To avoid that he actually dies
Grimskul wrote: How were the MANZ? Did you take them on foot and throw them midfield to plomp themselves on the objective? I believe you gave them kustom shootas or the kombi weapons? Were they worth keeping in terms of shooting? Just wondering if they add a dimension to the list that having more walkerz doesn't bring (besides recursion from the MA Big Mek).
I gave the big mek smoky gubbins and just deployed them dead center, right on the edge of my deployment zone, no transport. An important factor for that decision was that there was big LoS blocker preventing shooting down the middle - might not have done it if the entire enemy army would have had a clear shot on them without moving. Honestly I didn't think they would survive turn one and was mostly banking on the Mortarion effect (which I know quite well ), which means soaking most, if not all the enemies shooting to keep the rest of your army safe. My opponent saw through that and mostly ignored them T1 and instead moved two squads of berserks with concussion mauls to intercept them, which are pretty much perfect for killing MANz. I called the Waaagh! turn 2 and the FNP did it's magic, completely messing up the maul's 3 damage effectiveness (and saving them from a lot of other shooting). By the end of the Waaagh!, the center objective was mine, not only racing ahead in primaries, but also completely denying teleporter homers.
As for shootas, I went with kustom shootas. 5x6 shots per model, re-rolling ones and da button feels good enough to not bother with the marginal benefit of klaw/saw, but it's in no way reliable damage against anything durable. You roll for da button when you select a unit to shoot, which is before selecting target. So when you roll lethal hits, you can absolutely try to punch a hole into a vehicle or a monster. Plus you always have the option to pop bigger gitz if all your other options are dead or in a bad position. So nothing to write home about, but they killed a few berserkers and harthkyn while the extra killsaw would have done nothing at all. I'm absolutely going to keep running them like this.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beardedragon wrote: Wait. You guys go for KMBs on your Lootas? i always go for Rokkits to avoid their timely death
More often than not, lootas only get one or two good turns of shooting. I'd rather have that turn be as good possible and a dead spanna afterwards, than rolling ones on a rokkit when it matters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LunarSol wrote: Yeah, I've seen lots of nice options. I'm just weary of anything that's got a sculpt that's itching so bad to be replaced and in general try to avoid spamming things in general. More of a rule of 2 guy. Need to focus on finishing painting what I've got anyway and by then I'll see some results and get some ideas of where I should expand. Just finding some of these detachments demand a little more spam than I'd like, but War Horde is well rounded enough that I'm not really bothered.
You are aware that MANz are a fairly new kit and the cries for replacement are mostly from people who just don't like their aesthetics? They were released in the same wave as nauts, meks guns and flash gits.
Even if GW would replace them, they wouldn't look significantly different, because that's just how MANz have looked in every single piece of artwork since their inception.
If my unit takes hazard tests, if the KMB dude fails, he cant give that failed roll to someone else can he? To avoid that he actually dies
No, he just dies. And you don't care because he has fired his shots and most likely did way more damage to the target than you would have expect of a 10 point ork boy. Huh, re-reading the rules, you might be onto something. If you chose da button, all weapons become hazardous, meaning you can kill off lootas when the SAG or spannas overload. Nice.
"Beardedragon wrote:
Just to be sure ive understood it fully.
If my unit takes hazard tests, if the KMB dude fails, he cant give that failed roll to someone else can he? To avoid that he actually dies
Huh, re-reading the rules, you might be onto something. If you chose da button, all weapons become hazardous, meaning you can kill off lootas when the SAG or spannas overload. Nice."
Brilliant!
I'm going to have to try that combo now!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Quick question for the tactical group.:
As a caveat, I play pretty much only Crusade, expansion leagues, and fun games… No tournaments
I plan on using some of the legends models, specifically big Mek on the bike and/or pain boy on the bike.
It looks like running 3 (or maybe 6) bikers with a big Mek to give them the 4++ invul, or the Painboy for the 5+++ FNP,
then run them up within 9 inches, and shoot tons of dakka!
I know it will be hard to fill them all in due to the base sizes, but with the new strategies it looks like he could do some serious damage with that,
LunarSol wrote: Yeah, I've seen lots of nice options. I'm just weary of anything that's got a sculpt that's itching so bad to be replaced and in general try to avoid spamming things in general. More of a rule of 2 guy. Need to focus on finishing painting what I've got anyway and by then I'll see some results and get some ideas of where I should expand. Just finding some of these detachments demand a little more spam than I'd like, but War Horde is well rounded enough that I'm not really bothered.
You are aware that MANz are a fairly new kit and the cries for replacement are mostly from people who just don't like their aesthetics? They were released in the same wave as nauts, meks guns and flash gits.
Even if GW would replace them, they wouldn't look significantly different, because that's just how MANz have looked in every single piece of artwork since their inception.
I was not aware. When were they released? Looks like maybe 7th edition? Honestly, that's a lot more recent than I assumed. They're such a flat, static model I assumed they've been around since like... 5th. Appreciate the correction.
I don't mind the aesthetic at all, its just the posing. The square legs and rigid arms make them incredibly static looking. The Warboss version is a huge improvement in every way and while the whole unit doesn't need to look like that, they're currently borderline T-posed.
LunarSol wrote: I was not aware. When were they released? Looks like maybe 7th edition?
Yup, they were part of the wave sometimes referred to as "mek wave" which was release alongside with 7th edition's codex and the-supplement-that-shall-not-be-named.
Honestly, that's a lot more recent than I assumed. They're such a flat, static model I assumed they've been around since like... 5th. Appreciate the correction.
They are fairly detailed though, and actually come with a ton of options - including 5 of every ranged and melee weapon and the option to build the MA mek. It's an infantry squad from the golden age of GW models, and anything to replace them will be inferior in every way.
I don't mind the aesthetic at all, its just the posing. The square legs and rigid arms make them incredibly static looking. The Warboss version is a huge improvement in every way and while the whole unit doesn't need to look like that, they're currently borderline T-posed.
Afrodactyl wrote: The Mega Nobz themselves look fine in terms of how the sculpts have aged, they're just limited to being in this weird rigid dumpy stance.
If they looked like they could actually move they'd be a great sculpt.
You aren't wrong, but the point of MANz has always been that they pack as much armor as they can possible carry, way beyond the point where they can actually move that well in it. If they ever fall over, they literally cannot get back up without a crane lifting them, so the armor is built in a way that they just can't fall over. The weird square legs with those strange knee plates and pistons are not a sculpture's failure, but a distinguishing feature of mega-armor. You can see MANz animated in the DoW games, plus they were always super slow in past editions and were unable to get anywhere without the help of a wagon.
No one but a warboss is strong enough to fight normaly in mega-armor.
I get it, I just wish all 3 models weren't the bottom art and at least one of them was the middle. All 3 have squared up legs and hips square to shoulder. Worse yet, all 6 arms are right angles hold to the side. If any of them angled out a bit to hold a klaw or saw like that, I'd be a lot happier with the kit. No arm variety, no differences in stance or torso twist. They all share nearly identical poses.
Huh, I have one looking like the middle one. I know for sure because it keeps grabbling my sleeve with the raised klaw and then proceeds to get flung across the table while I try to move other models
Got in my first real game with the Orks last night. Went pretty well. Brought down some big bugs with Ghaz and Nobz. Standard Boyz didn't do a whole lot but died in place of stronger things. Probably need to do some Beast Snagga upgrading in the long run though.
I can't see if this has been discussed in this thread yet. so hopefully this isn't a repeat question. Do you think it is better for Ghazghkull to be by himself in a battlewagon or walk across the board with a mob of meganobs? What are the pros and cons of each choice? Is one better against certain builds?
Jidmah wrote: Nailed a bit of scrap to the first post to make it look proppa killy.
thanks!
Does anybody give a try to any other detachements than Bully boyz and the Dread Mob?
I saw quite a few reports about Speedmob. All of them in the mood like below.. Almost no reports about War Horde, Big hunt or Green tide…
I think it's because War Horde is still basically WAAAGH! Tribe which we've been playing with since the beginning of 10th, so we won't really see much focus on it for a while as people are trying the new toys and detachments.
For Big Hunt, I think it's partly because it requires a significant investment into Beast Snagga units which not everyone will have enough of to warrant making reports as quickly since the range is still relatively new compared to the rest of the Ork range.
Green Tide I am a bit surprised by that there isn't that much on it, though I assume it's because moving 120 boyz isn't super exciting for most people or battle reports which is why we've boiled down to Dred Mob and Bully Boyz as the main sources of Ork battle reports.
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Mr Nobody wrote: I can't see if this has been discussed in this thread yet. so hopefully this isn't a repeat question. Do you think it is better for Ghazghkull to be by himself in a battlewagon or walk across the board with a mob of meganobs? What are the pros and cons of each choice? Is one better against certain builds?
Ghazghkull is definitely better with meganobz. A lot of his buffs only apply if he's joined with a unit and with Bully Boyz, you get to basically do 2-turns of run and charge for them which can mitigate their baseline slow movement. Don't forget that his unit is infantry so they can go through ruins as needed.
Mr Nobody wrote: I can't see if this has been discussed in this thread yet. so hopefully this isn't a repeat question. Do you think it is better for Ghazghkull to be by himself in a battlewagon or walk across the board with a mob of meganobs? What are the pros and cons of each choice? Is one better against certain builds?
As GW clarified that Thrakka+Makari is 19 transport capacity, riding a wagon isn't really a good option anymore. He just gains too much from walking around with MANz. His first ability is only active while leading a unit, and they provide him with a 4++ during the Waaagh! turn(s).
Best case, you go second, rapid ingress him during your Waaagh! round, laugh manically while you opponent struggles to shoot down all the 4++ MANz and then charge him into the biggest concentration of enemy units.
If you go first, you need to be a bit more careful, so deploy out of sight from things that can easily kill MANz and then declare Waaagh! the turn afterwards.
Jidmah wrote: Nailed a bit of scrap to the first post to make it look proppa killy.
thanks!
Does anybody give a try to any other detachements than Bully boyz and the Dread Mob?
I saw quite a few reports about Speedmob. All of them in the mood like below.. Almost no reports about War Horde, Big hunt or Green tide…
From what I gathered, speed mob is great at the objective game, but really struggles with killing things. Ironically, green tide is its worst enemy. Armies with a hard-counter struggle to make a splash in competitive.
For Big Hunt, I think it's partly because it requires a significant investment into Beast Snagga units which not everyone will have enough of to warrant making reports as quickly since the range is still relatively new compared to the rest of the Ork range.
I think snaggas lack the toolset to become competitive. Squighogs have become super powerful, but also expensive as sin. Besides that they don't really have anything going for them besides beastsnagga boyz and two totally-not-a-battlewagon. Any army built around beastsnagga units is probably better off using War Horde with other ork staples.
Green Tide I am a bit surprised by that there isn't that much on it, though I assume it's because moving 120 boyz isn't super exciting for most people or battle reports which is why we've boiled down to Dred Mob and Bully Boyz as the main sources of Ork battle reports.
Green tide is all over the beakie and necron communities, many already crying for a nerf. From what I can tell, they put warboss amd painboyz in three big mobs and just bog down midfield plus three more mobs in trukks or with weirdboy and usually supported by gretchin, stormboyz and a bunch of other random stuff.
Does anybody give a try to any other detachements than Bully boyz and the Dread Mob?
I'm going to be running Big Hunt because I was already running almost exclusively Snagga units in my lists. I haven't actually had the time to get any games in though.
The gameplan is to bog the centre of the board with Hunta Rigs full of Snagga Boys with Beastbosses, while two smaller hog units secure flanks and hunt tanks. A big unit of hogs with a Surly Squigosaur to either soak damage or kill the biggest thing on the board.
Two Gretchin units, a unit of Stormboys, a unit of deffkoptas and a Weirdboy take care of nabbing objectives and holding the backfield.
It's functionally the same as my War Tribe lists, minus a unit of nobs (and my beloved Squiggoth, RIP), so I'm hoping it should have similar success. I never really had any issues regarding volume of attacks, so I'm hoping the trade off for AP will be worthwhile. Worst case scenario I'll just go back to War Tribe or whatever it's called now.
I think Green Tide's issues are that moving that many boys takes a long time, and painting them even longer. I personally wouldn't want to watch a YT batrep with Green Tide because it wouldn't be very interesting visually. However, it will do well in tournaments as a skew list and just be a damage gate for balanced lists, like Knights sometimes are.
Afrodactyl wrote: I personally wouldn't want to watch a YT batrep with Green Tide because it wouldn't be very interesting visually. However, it will do well in tournaments as a skew list and just be a damage gate for balanced lists, like Knights sometimes are.
Well, this is a general topic - why most of the YT bat rep channels do not use a cut. 40k in 40min is the bright spot… I have to play the most of the on double speed and it sounds pretty crazy and makes the grim dark spirit little bit smurfy…
Automatically Appended Next Post: Meta Monday on Reddit has the fresh first results about orks
Conlusion in the picture below and I add few tips what can we expect
- people are scared / interested in Green Tide, which in my opinion will suck on the end, after meta gears up to kill the boyz and people find, that playing 120 boyz kills you on clock.
- Bully boyz obviously roules and will rule until some nerfhammer kill the immortal MANz - War Horde will come later as people come back from “discovering” to “have experience”.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah, this should we expected
"You wont be able to play 120 boyz on the clock" keeps getting brought up as an argument, but is that really a problem for an experienced player? There have been people playing way more models on the clock before, and green tides of previous editions had more than twice as many models. Moving 6 blocks of 20 maximum is still rookie numbers for orks, and neither their attacks nor their saves are much of a problem when using a dice app. Last time I checked, movement trays haven't become illegal either.
I'm just so surprised that so many people keep talking about how tide (or dread mob) makes them run out of the clock. Is that a real problem for you guys? Because it absolutely isn't for me, if I think back to 5th edition kan wall times when every boy needed to be exactly 2" appart from all others not not get murdered by leafblower, playing a dread mob with a similar amount of models feels like walk in the park. I more often than not, I finish my games faster than any MEQ or eldar players in our group.
Feth, I just realized my dread mob army is almost a carbon copy of my 5th edition kan wall (kanz, boyz, lootas, big meks), but with MANz and deff dreads added in. Well played, GW.
I feel like "you can't play green tide on the clock" is more aimed at people coming over from playing other, non-horde, armies and underestimating just how many models an Ork list can run. Any Guard, Tyranid or GSC player won't have that issue as they've probably been in the same boat previously.
As you said, movement trays and having your dice set up in pre-prepared blocks on 20 cut down on time enormously.
I think the main thing that would put people off of green tide is the building and painting that many models in the first place, assuming that they didn't already have 100+ boys in the first place.
A newer player or someone coming over from a different army probably isn't going to want to spend £300+ on just boys, and that's before any characters or any of the shiny toys.
Afrodactyl wrote: I feel like "you can't play green tide on the clock" is more aimed at people coming over from playing other, non-horde, armies and underestimating just how many models an Ork list can run. Any Guard, Tyranid or GSC player won't have that issue as they've probably been in the same boat previously.
As you said, movement trays and having your dice set up in pre-prepared blocks on 20 cut down on time enormously.
I think the main thing that would put people off of green tide is the building and painting that many models in the first place, assuming that they didn't already have 100+ boys in the first place.
A newer player or someone coming over from a different army probably isn't going to want to spend £300+ on just boys, and that's before any characters or any of the shiny toys.
Yeah, this was my take as well, and given how most tournie players tend to be meta chasers that swap out armies as fast as they change their underwear, skew lists like Green Tide are one of the odd armies out where it's not as plug and play as a low model army like Custodes or Knights are. I think especially since GW has been pushing lower model counts as well in terms of unit sizes (e.g. boyz now capping at 20 man sizes) have made more people used to lower overall model counts in general and since usually the top dogs tend to be more elite armies anyways like Eldar/Tau/Marines it makes it so people are unprepared to deal with some of the realities of having a horde based list since netlisting only involves one part of the equation when actually playing with said models. That being said, like Afrodactyl mentioned, people used to horde armies won't have that issue but that is a potential barrier to entry to some of the less patient meta chasers.
120 boyz isn't that much for any ork veteran though and anyone who started during 7th or 8th will probably have that many from playing competitively at that time and anyone who started earlier will have that many because that's just how things go.
My only worry is that this might cause the numbers of that archetype to be highly skewed - if it is only played by veterans (and ork veterans have been proven to be extremely loyal to their army), the winrate might be much higher than it would be if metachasers would pick it up.
Tomsug wrote: Yeah. Any sane metachaser will simply choose some other meta army than painting 120 boyz anyway
And if they lack the sanity to let that dissuade them, they'll probably fit right in
I've done 30 boyz with an airbrush and I was surprised how fast it went. It has me tempted, but I need a better baseline of options, which sadly likely includes 20 BSBoyz before I lose my mind on the normal variety.
I'm going to try out a 1500 point Beast Snagga list against one of my local SoB players, so I'm not going cuthroat competitive with the list but I do want to make sure it can still pack a punch, so I wanted to see if our esteemed Warbosses in here can knock my 'ead a bit on what I have listed down so far:
Da Big Hunt Detachment:
Beastboss on Squigosaur - 160 Enhancement: Glory Hog
Beastboss on Squigosaur - 150 Enhancement: Surly as a Squiggoth
Beastboss - 95 Enhancement: Proper Killy
Beastboss - 80
10 Beast Snagga Boyz - 105
10 Beast Snagga Boyz - 105
10 Gretchin, 1 Runtherd - 40
3 Squighog Boyz, 1 Nob on Smasha Squig - 160
3 Squighog Boyz, 1 Nob on Smasha Squig - 160
Hunta Rig - 150
Hunta Rig - 150
5 Stormboyz - 65
5 Stormboyz - 65
My main debate is if I should take Kill Rigs instead of Hunta Rigs and swap out the stormboyz for Trukks to carry the beast snagga boyz. I'm also not sure if I should aim for a full 6 man block squighog boy unit with the surly as a squiggoth or glory hog beastboss on squigosaur. I'm also considering maybe dropping one of the Beastbosses for Snikrot to take advantage of his lone operative and teleport ability.
What is your plan for handling Castigators or Exorcists?
Most of the sister's units will try to get close to shoot, but I don't think you can afford to weather heavy artillery shelling you from a safe distance all game.
Jidmah wrote: What is your plan for handling Castigators or Exorcists?
Most of the sister's units will try to get close to shoot, but I don't think you can afford to weather heavy artillery shelling you from a safe distance all game.
That was my main concern, I'm debating on using the glory hog unit to apply pressure to them if they're not screened properly or using the strat to put the other squighog unit into strategic reserves so I can try and potentially get a 8" rerollable charge if I make them prey on my turn.
What are your thoughts on running small 5 man units of Flash gitz for 80 points?
I never gave it any thought untill i saw some people running them in lists.
Tried to run a 5 man unit in my Bully Boyz unit (because i had a trukk with 5 nobz and 1 warboss, and i wanted to fill out the rest of the transport with something cheap) but they didnt do much. Though that was my fault they didnt do much.
So i didnt really get a good feeling of them. Have you guys tried them?
Well, unlike 10 mans lead by Badrukk you actually need to point them at the right targets.
My rule of thumb for selecting targets is to look at the snazzgun profile: S6 AP-1 2dmg S6 is good against anything T5 and below. AP-1 is good against anything with 3+ save(including cover!) and worse. 2 dmg is best against 2W and 4W units, worst against anything with 3W, -1 to damage or FNP, decent against anything else.
If you have an enemy unit in range that checks all three boxes, that's your target (which is sadly not that common). Pick targets which check two boxes afterwards, high toughness/wounds models last if you need them to die. If there are no good targets around, prioritize scoring, charging or setting up heavy for next round and just shoot a unit which are actually likely to damage - so no terminators or T12+ stuff.
I make sure to prioritizing having Gun-crazy Show-offs over getting +1 to hit from heavy, though I don't have the math to back this up.
Avoid any target with stealth if you can help it.
Always keep in mind that they are just 80 points now. If they take out a battleline unit, that's probably enough of an accomplishment already.
Jidmah wrote: Well, unlike 10 mans lead by Badrukk you actually need to point them at the right targets.
My rule of thumb for selecting targets is to look at the snazzgun profile: S6 AP-1 2dmg
S6 is good against anything T5 and below.
AP-1 is good against anything with 3+ save(including cover!) and worse.
2 dmg is best against 2W and 4W units, worst against anything with 3W, -1 to damage or FNP, decent against anything else.
If you have an enemy unit in range that checks all three boxes, that's your target (which is sadly not that common). Pick targets which check two boxes afterwards, high toughness/wounds models last if you need them to die.
If there are no good targets around, prioritize scoring, charging or setting up heavy for next round and just shoot a unit which are actually likely to damage - so no terminators or T12+ stuff.
I make sure to prioritizing having Gun-crazy Show-offs over getting +1 to hit from heavy, though I don't have the math to back this up.
Avoid any target with stealth if you can help it.
Always keep in mind that they are just 80 points now. If they take out a battleline unit, that's probably enough of an accomplishment already.
Math time!
Normally, Flash Gitz average 3 hits per 6 shots. 4 misses, 1 hit, 1 Sustained Hit.
Heavy increases that to 4 hits per 6.
Gun-Crazy Showoffs doesn't touch that, but does increase shot count by 33%.
So, simple math later...
Neither 3/2 hits per Git
Heavy 2 hits per Git
Gun-Crazy Showoffs 2 hits per Git
Both! 8/3 hits per Git
So, your instinct isn't right-they're equal in effect, so no need to prioritize one over the other.
But movement is valuable, so if you can get them nearer an Objective and get Gun Crazy... Nice.
Jidmah wrote: Well, unlike 10 mans lead by Badrukk you actually need to point them at the right targets.
My rule of thumb for selecting targets is to look at the snazzgun profile: S6 AP-1 2dmg
S6 is good against anything T5 and below.
AP-1 is good against anything with 3+ save(including cover!) and worse.
2 dmg is best against 2W and 4W units, worst against anything with 3W, -1 to damage or FNP, decent against anything else.
If you have an enemy unit in range that checks all three boxes, that's your target (which is sadly not that common). Pick targets which check two boxes afterwards, high toughness/wounds models last if you need them to die.
If there are no good targets around, prioritize scoring, charging or setting up heavy for next round and just shoot a unit which are actually likely to damage - so no terminators or T12+ stuff.
I make sure to prioritizing having Gun-crazy Show-offs over getting +1 to hit from heavy, though I don't have the math to back this up.
Avoid any target with stealth if you can help it.
Always keep in mind that they are just 80 points now. If they take out a battleline unit, that's probably enough of an accomplishment already.
yea. And on top of that if you want, they are essentially beast snagga boys in Melee combat too. So they can trash a decent potion of battleline infantry there too.
On the waaagh, 20 attacks, str 6 ap1 dmg 1 isnt too bad for just 5 models at 80 points, that can also shoot and have 2 wounds each.
Makes sense. War horde was already the kind of list people were prepared for previous Ork lists, so the meta has to adjust for an infantry heavy army of Green Tide and the ability for Orks to double tap on the WAAAGH! for units like Meganobz.
I'm just happy I can finally play speed freaks in a way that makes sense. I.E. The way I've always played them and always lost games. (Because being thematic is cooler than winning...well sometimes).
The squig flinging strategem is amazing. That + regular boyz getting sticky objectives.
Doesn't work well on DG though...grrrrr, opposing player stickies!
Agreed. The actual detachment itself is good and the strats are not bad, it just sucks that half of the speed freeks roster's weakness is tied to their datasheets just being fundamentally bad. You really have to lean on the Faster Than Yooz unit to do the heavy lifting in terms of damage and losing Nob Bikerz/Warboss on Warbike doesn't help. The shooting strats all just lend themselves to big units like Deffkoptas but don't work well with single model units. I feel if you were able to choose up to 3 of the same unit when using the strat, it would be a better way to make some of the buggy units usuable. I think just the Kustom Boosta Blasta with their shooting debuff ability and the Shokkjump Dragsta's mobility are the only ones with utility otherwise. But man the Megatrakk Scrapjet's lack of damage output is unforgivable, especially compared to their peak back in 8th edition. Either they need a LOT more shots or better accuracy, not to mention a better melee profile. Rukkatrukk squigbuggy should just have their abilities go off on a 2+ since now their damage output is terrible, and I feel like the Boomdakka Snazzwagon has always had an identity crisis of what it wants to do as a sort of harassment unit. I think if it tied more to being a suicide bomber unit for dealing mortals it might have a better niche.
Jidmah wrote: Well, unlike 10 mans lead by Badrukk you actually need to point them at the right targets.
My rule of thumb for selecting targets is to look at the snazzgun profile: S6 AP-1 2dmg
S6 is good against anything T5 and below.
AP-1 is good against anything with 3+ save(including cover!) and worse.
2 dmg is best against 2W and 4W units, worst against anything with 3W, -1 to damage or FNP, decent against anything else.
If you have an enemy unit in range that checks all three boxes, that's your target (which is sadly not that common). Pick targets which check two boxes afterwards, high toughness/wounds models last if you need them to die.
If there are no good targets around, prioritize scoring, charging or setting up heavy for next round and just shoot a unit which are actually likely to damage - so no terminators or T12+ stuff.
I make sure to prioritizing having Gun-crazy Show-offs over getting +1 to hit from heavy, though I don't have the math to back this up.
Avoid any target with stealth if you can help it.
Always keep in mind that they are just 80 points now. If they take out a battleline unit, that's probably enough of an accomplishment already.
Math time!
Normally, Flash Gitz average 3 hits per 6 shots. 4 misses, 1 hit, 1 Sustained Hit.
Heavy increases that to 4 hits per 6.
Gun-Crazy Showoffs doesn't touch that, but does increase shot count by 33%.
So, simple math later...
Neither 3/2 hits per Git
Heavy 2 hits per Git
Gun-Crazy Showoffs 2 hits per Git
Both! 8/3 hits per Git
So, your instinct isn't right-they're equal in effect, so no need to prioritize one over the other.
But movement is valuable, so if you can get them nearer an Objective and get Gun Crazy... Nice.
Thanks for doing the math, but I'm fairly sure that just looking at averages doesn't cut it when comparing quality to quantity. For example, 3 shots at BS 5+ average the same hits as 2 shots at BS4+, but the three shots will always be superior due to having the ability to kill three models while two shots can never do that.
What is everyone running as of late? Is everybody still leaning hard into Bully Boyz?
I'm still trying Da Big Hunt and I've not been let down so far (it's by no means the strongest detachment, but it's still pretty good). That being said I have tweaked things a little, in particular dropping a Hunta Rig, Proper Killy from a Beastboss, and my beloved Deffkoptas, in favour of two trukks, a third Beastboss, and another unit of Stormboys. My second block of 20 Snaggas is now 2 blocks of 10 (with a boss each), as with all the hogs running around the second block of 20 felt quite clunky.
I've not played much since making the change, but so far it feels smooth to play with. I won't say it feels stronger, but it definitely just feels like it runs easier and like I have less to think about.
Spoiler:
++ Army Roster (Xenos - Orks) [1,995pts] ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size: 2. Strike Force (2000 Point limit)
Detachment: Da Big Hunt
+ Character +
Beastboss [80pts]
Beastboss [80pts]
Beastboss [80pts]
Beastboss on Squigosaur [150pts]: Surly As A Squiggoth, Warlord
I have perfected the art of rolling the worst possible buff for dat button in almost every situation.
That said, so far I'm also undefeated - while I don't curb-stomp my opponents, I feel like dread mob gives me all the tools to safely drive home even a small lead as well as turn around a losing game by super-charging a shooting unit on demand.
1. Aprox 4 ways to play and win with the new codex and 2 more obviously not so great but fun
2. Read the Meta Monday reddit comments and there is no moaning about “broken MANz / green tide lists” at all.
Jidmah wrote:I have perfected the art of rolling the worst possible buff for dat button in almost every situation.
That said, so far I'm also undefeated - while I don't curb-stomp my opponents, I feel like dread mob gives me all the tools to safely drive home even a small lead as well as turn around a losing game by super-charging a shooting unit on demand.
Nice one! What does your list look like?
Tomsug wrote:1. Aprox 4 ways to play and win with the new codex and 2 more obviously not so great but fun
2. Read the Meta Monday reddit comments and there is no moaning about “broken MANz / green tide lists” at all.
Both are great news!
Reddit is still kinda feral about Bully Boyz and Green Tide, but people seem to be coming round on the issue being that MANz are now just a smidge too cheap.
3x Kanz with rokkits 125 3x Kanz with rokkits 125 3x Kanz with grotzookas 125
2x Bubblechukka 100
Mek 45 Boss Snikrot 85
Though I regularly switch it up by replacing the mek guns and some kanz with a naut or a pair of SJD and extra gretchin whenever I can fit them. It's really too bad that Ufthak is legends only, having a unit of 22 shooty stormboyz could be a great assent to tournament players. I'd probably drop the second mob without him.
Reddit is still kinda feral about Bully Boyz and Green Tide, but people seem to be coming round on the issue being that MANz are now just a smidge too cheap.
I feel most people are just venting the frustration of not being able to kill certain ork lists. It kind of a gear check thing, similar to how knights were in the past. Neither bully boyz MANz nor green tides are winning many tournaments, but anyone who wants to do well needs to be able to beat them.
How are the shoota boys performing for you? How do they compare in terms of damage output to other units of similar cost?
Obviously they're pretty decent for numbers and board presence, I'm just curious about their output.
I've tried explaining the gear check idea to people, but because we're a xenos faction it's the most broken thing ever, and nothing to do with MANz probably needing a slight point hike to compensate for them actually doing something nowadays. It just needs people to compensate and bring more anti-tank/anti-custodes type weapons. Or learn to kite them. I'm told that Knights are pretty decent into Bully Boyz, but I've not looked into it yet.
As far as Green Tide is concerned, if it's good into Plaguebearers it's probably going to do well against Boyz spam.
Afrodactyl wrote: How are the shoota boys performing for you? How do they compare in terms of damage output to other units of similar cost?
Obviously they're pretty decent for numbers and board presence, I'm just curious about their output.
I've tried explaining the gear check idea to people, but because we're a xenos faction it's the most broken thing ever, and nothing to do with MANz probably needing a slight point hike to compensate for them actually doing something nowadays. It just needs people to compensate and bring more anti-tank/anti-custodes type weapons. Or learn to kite them. I'm told that Knights are pretty decent into Bully Boyz, but I've not looked into it yet.
As far as Green Tide is concerned, if it's good into Plaguebearers it's probably going to do well against Boyz spam.
I've always found that Orks are often in a unique situation where people tend to villify our faction particularly hard when our army gets stronger on the competitive scene given that we're often memified online as a joke and "silly" army, so when we krump heads and force people to adapt to our army (usually because historically the online competitive lists we end up having are skew lists based on massed vehicles or infantry/specific units like Kan Wall in 5th, Buggy spam in 8th, Green Tide or occasionally stuff like Nob Bikerz) people tend to overreact seeing us an upstart that needs to be put in its place. Because usually "accepted" xenos factions like Eldar and Tau that usually cycle into the upper crust of competitiveness don't face the same level of vitriol that Orks do when they dominate (10th edition potentially excepted because even Eldar players couldn't BS into saying a 60-70% win rate was healthy). I think it also has to do partly with the fact that because GW usually writes us in with swingy rules due to our poor BS, so when we spike, we can spike hard and it messes with people's perceptions of Orks as being a joke army and that it forces people to use newer tactics than just trying to upgun other factions on the rerolls or protective abilities that you usually see when you have elite armies fighting each other.
Afrodactyl wrote: How are the shoota boys performing for you? How do they compare in terms of damage output to other units of similar cost?
Good enough, I guess?
They are kind of like wartribe boyz (duh!), and the double buff for both shooting and melee from da button makes them work. Unless I'm desperate, I never make use of the hazardous option and never use any stratagems on them. The warboss mob's job is to walk up the flank with the least opposition and tag objectives while blocking movement to the area behind them. After my initial tests, I added the warboss so they don't bounce off well armored targets like LoV or marines during the Waaagh!. 18" might not sound like a lot, but the extra range really racks up a bunch of damage over the course of a game. The "heavy lifting" is done by the big mek's KMB and the two rokkits - they just add to all the other KMB and rokkits on the board, feels like having a unit of tank bustas hidden among your other units.
The Ufthak unit is essentially used like stormboyz were - they stick around in reserve to force people to protect their backfield. If the opponent fails to do that, they have 22 orks in their backfield with sufficient shooting to gun down typical backfield objective holders like gretchin, pox walkers, cultists, guardsmen and the like while still being able to charge and tag a second objective in one turn, for a potential 15 VP swing. By turn 3, there usually is a hole big enough to deep strike them somewhere.
Obviously they're pretty decent for numbers and board presence, I'm just curious about their output.
While they have a much shorter range than either flash gits or lootas, they feel like a more durable side-grade to either. They are extremely vulnerable to blasts though, you really need to make use of the big mek's Shokk-boosta to keep them away from units like aggressors and thunderkyn.
I've tried explaining the gear check idea to people, but because we're a xenos faction it's the most broken thing ever, and nothing to do with MANz probably needing a slight point hike to compensate for them actually doing something nowadays. It just needs people to compensate and bring more anti-tank/anti-custodes type weapons. Or learn to kite them. I'm told that Knights are pretty decent into Bully Boyz, but I've not looked into it yet.
Eh, pretty much any unit with high damage melee attacks like big bugs, greater daemons, votann beserks, aberants and the like all plow right through them. They really don't like nauts or deff dreads with klanking klaws played on them either Or Angron... by gork, keep them away from Angron *flashbacks playing*
Mine get stealth from the enhancement, if someone tries to take them down with shooting during the Waaagh! it really feels like playing 9th edition Mortarion - even if they die, they have soaked so much damage that I've won the game by the time they do. If my opponent has no answer to them, they just walk onto the middle objective and stay there, which is devastating to armies who want to do the same. Guess who checks both boxes of "usually lacking the tools" and "wants to be in the middle"? Marines.
Afrodactyl wrote: What is everyone running as of late? Is everybody still leaning hard into Bully Boyz?
I've stuck to War Horde simply because I don't have enough MANZ to get anything out of the BB stratagems. Index rules are still really solid for a big turn 2 charge that's largely worked out for me. Looking to test out the Beast Snagga stuff in the list by swapping in Moz and some Beast Bosses. Probably try it out in BB at some point just to see if double WAAAGH!!! is worth not having much in the way of strats. Grenades and Tank Shock aren't exactly bad uses of CP after all.
I feel like I have a lot of models but still not enough to make most detachments. I have every model and multiple at max 3x boxes of non named boxes. (No stompa though)
Don’t have enough dreads for full dread mob list 6 killakans 😢, 3x deff dread and 1 magnetized mork/gorkanaut, 10x lootas, 33x Gretchin, 3x runtherder, zodgrod, 2x bigmek w shokk atk, 4x mekguns, 2x meks
Don’t have enough buggies for speedwaagh. 1 of each with 2x scrapjet, 2x magnaetized planes, 10x warbikers, 6x deffkoptas, 1x deffkilla
Technically it’s enough but it’s bare minimum for da big hunt. 20x snaggas, 1 magnetized kill/hunta rig, 8x squig riders, 1x boss squig, 2x beastboss.
I have just enough for a non-max greentide with only 95 boys, 7x nobs with pk, 5x nobs with BC, 2x painboy, 1x painboss (used as painboy), 2x warboss, weirdboy.
I’m good for bullyboys, 10x meganobs, ghazgkul, 7x nob w pk, 5x nob w BC, 3x trukk, 1x battlewagon, warboss in mega, snikrot, 2x warboss, 15x stormboys, 1 stormboy w pk (aka zagstruk)
And warhorde works perfectly for non theme non spam list… my 26x kommandos work well here… my 6x burnaboys, 5x flashgitz, and 15x tankbustas sit on shelves.
But I’m currently playing an escalation league game with friends 1x a month and I’ve been doing bully boys. I only plan to buy the new big Mek and another box of killakans because I really want to play a non-stompa dread mob. Unfortunately my meka/mega dread is gone..as was my badrukk and kff big Mek.. they go into the drawer with all my old buggies and Scorchas and Mek guns and boar/cyboar boys. I can’t really proxy them as anything.
That's plenty for a dread mob though. SAGs can also lead shoota boyz, and MANz with a MA bigmek to lead them is a Mek unit as well. With your naut, you should easily be able to hit 2000 with your models.
If you kitbash a drill (kan box!) and a KMB onto any of your KFF big meks (or a new nob torso), you are pretty much set to go for the dread mobs. I'm actually using the ancient "Big Mek with Kustom Blasta" model for one of them. It's so old, it has become legal again
Jidmah wrote: That's plenty for a dread mob though. SAGs can also lead shoota boyz, and MANz with a MA bigmek to lead them is a Mek unit as well. With your naut, you should easily be able to hit 2000 with your models.
If you kitbash a drill (kan box!) and a KMB onto any of your KFF big meks (or a new nob torso), you are pretty much set to go for the dread mobs. I'm actually using the ancient "Big Mek with Kustom Blasta" model for one of them. It's so old, it has become legal again
My kff bigmek (legends) is metal… pain in the arse to kitbash… my killakans are all magnetized for any weapon options.. I plan on getting another box of kans and the new big Mek anyway. 9x kans should be fine.. I never really liked overly spamming and liked making each model look slightly different. I agree though dread mob is fine once I get the last kan box. I’m already in the middle of a campaign though so I’ll just stay with Bullyboys.
I think my point was I think most players are like me and can only lean hard into ~3 detachments. Warhorde and bullyboys are the easiest to field… and then it’s greentide and dreadmob… followed by snagga and speedmob.
I don't think that was the intent behind giving us all those detachments though. I can barely field all of the detachments, and my collection is huge - I own at least one max sized unit of every single datasheet currently not legended, except for the stompa and the snagga rigs (hate their looks). I got warhorde, green tide, dread mob and speedmob easily covered, stretching thin for bully boyz. I got a ton of nobz and warbosses, but only one unit of MANz. For snaggas I would probably be limited to 1000 or 1500 unless I run the gargantuan squiggoth, but I might as well just play a warhorde then.
It's more like "no matter what playstyle of orks you played in the last decade, we got you covered", which makes this ork codex a true masterpiece.
The only two things which weren't perfect is the buggies' shooting profiles (still paying for the sins of 9th) and the great resin purge - though you can hardly blame codex writers for later. They wouldn't have added a full page with a new background for Badrukk if they had known that he would get the axe.
Yeah, compared to our lowest points for codices in 6th and 7th where we really were one trick ponies when it came to our detachments and many of our units largely felt like duds outside of certain builds, the variety from the recent codex is much appreciated. I am glad that Orks have progressively moved from an afterthought for codex writers to having rules that much better reflect the diversity of warbands that Orks have in a WAAAGH!
I’m not complaining just stating the answer to the question of what you are playing from above. I don’t think most ork players can field most detachments completely at 2k. Considering most players are likely not competitive players jumping into whatever spam list is the current hotness. And most ork players I know have large armies.
It’s still kinda difficult to form a full list of every detachment. To be fair I’m good with greentide, bullyboys, warhorde,1500pt da big hunt, and dreadmob w/ another killkan box.. I’m probably not going to buy 3x of every buggy to chase whatever is currently good, but I did just make a 2k list for speed freaks with what I have and it’s not bad just has 3x squads of stormboys. I mean seriously why aren’t stormboys speed freaks!!!
So my only issue with a 2k list is da big hunt.. just need another squigboss and 8x squigboys to make a good 2k list. And I’m probably not going to do that
A bit of an aside, but given that I know several Ork players here have played the demo the first time it was available on Steam, the Speed Freeks video game has an open beta that you can sign up for now:
The last time I played it I think they did a fantastic job doing an Orky version of Twisted Metal, and I think they did great differentiating the different buggies and more unusual vehicles like the grot mega tank. Hoping they took the feedback pretty well!
gungo wrote: It’s still kinda difficult to form a full list of every detachment.
I don't think you need to. We have a lot of utility units, such as Stormoboy,. Grots and Kommandos that do well in every detachment. Ditto trukks and battlewagons. I don't think maxing who gets the detachment rule is the best bet in any case. For example, for bully boyz, the first waaargh could be a wave of non-warboss/nob units. Dreadmob only needs about 1200 points of serious shooting. There's only so many cp to spend on those locked strats too.
Jidmah wrote: Huh, I just realized that units of beast snagga boyz lead by beastbosses, as well as warbikers lead by a wartrike are WARBOSS units...
Scratch what I said above, I can totally field a bully boyz army
True. Same goes for squighog boys.
The only downside is you cant use stratagems on them (bully boys ones at least).
In my current bully boys detatchment im also experimenting with the idea of 10 Snagga boys and a Bboss. Only one game in which i won so its early days.
gungo wrote: It’s still kinda difficult to form a full list of every detachment.
I don't think you need to. We have a lot of utility units, such as Stormoboy,. Grots and Kommandos that do well in every detachment. Ditto trukks and battlewagons. I don't think maxing who gets the detachment rule is the best bet in any case. For example, for bully boyz, the first waaargh could be a wave of non-warboss/nob units. Dreadmob only needs about 1200 points of serious shooting. There's only so many cp to spend on those locked strats too.
I mean da big hunt really leans into the beastsnagga benefit.. plus like greentide its less in need of objective secured units as one of its main units is battleline. I’m not worried about spam lists I don’t usually spam I’m just trying to make usable lists. Here is what I got for the models I’d own.
Dreadmob
Spoiler:
Ork 10th (2000 Points)
Orks
Dread Mob
Strike Force (2000 Points)
CHARACTERS
Big Mek (80 Points) with boys in trukk
• 1x Kustom mega-blasta
1x Power klaw
Big Mek in Mega Armour (100 Points) with meganobs
• Warlord
• 1x Grot Oiler
1x Kustom Force Field
1x Kustom mega-blasta
1x Power klaw
Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun (110 Points) with lootas
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Grot Assistant
1x Shokk attack gun
• Enhancements: Press It Fasta!
Exported with App Version: v1.15.0 (38), Data Version: v397
Greentide
Spoiler:
Ork 10th (1995 Points)
Orks
Green Tide
Strike Force (2000 Points)
CHARACTERS
Big Mek in Mega Armour (120 Points)
• Warlord
• 1x Grot Oiler
1x Kustom Force Field
1x Kustom mega-blasta
1x Power klaw
• Enhancements: Raucous Warcaller
Dekskull wrote: I'm just happy I can finally play speed freaks in a way that makes sense. I.E. The way I've always played them and always lost games. (Because being thematic is cooler than winning...well sometimes).
The squig flinging strategem is amazing. That + regular boyz getting sticky objectives.
Doesn't work well on DG though...grrrrr, opposing player stickies!
Good to hear mate, there was a bit of doom and gloom over that detach. Glad people are figuring it out.
I am bit pressed for time, managed to get the dex by contacts but i both have no time or opponents... work is truly the p**p...
Anyway still happy to see happy warbosses with the new dex. Please do keep the stories coming this ork loves the reports.
As a side step, i also would like to add that raising points on Meganobz is pointless, it's throwing red meat at the mob, their just going to ask for more and refuse to adapt to a changing environment. Like some mentioned, just bring the proper tools.
Anyway, best of games, wish me luck on the work trenches.
Jidmah wrote: Keep in mind that neither the mek nor the boyz get da button while embarked on a transport.
Otherwise, looking good.
Ya it’s why I gave push it fasta to shokk atk gun and lootas
Make sure to share how the enhancement did for you.
I’m like 2-3 months out from playing it need to build the new killakans and Mek.
I also haven’t played tournaments in a while. It’s mostly dad hammer now about once a month with a friend group. I did go to nova last year but just to drink and play games with some other friends. Took the family with me so I can take them to museums and stuff. I just don’t have the time to spend 3 days and traveling anymore. Dad hammer is fun.
Dadhammer is besthammer. The allure of the sweaty, hyper-competitive type of Warhammer only lasts so long when beer and snacks with buddies games exist.
Interesting update. According to an update on the warhammer app Ghaz now takes up 15 slots in a battlewagon, making room for 3 mega nobz. along side him.
And grots do their +1CP shinanigans at the start of the movement phase, to avoid that we wouldnt get CP turn 1.
Odd thing is this update doesnt seem to be present on their own website as a downloadable file. Its only present on their App under erratas and changes.
Hopefully that’s a future errata unfortunately the app isn’t considered as official change.
Would make ghaz and makari and 3 meganobs viable in battlewagon… still not ideal though.
gungo wrote: Hopefully that’s a future errata unfortunately the app isn’t considered as official change.
Would make ghaz and makari and 3 meganobs viable in battlewagon… still not ideal though.
it is now on the official Games workshop PDF's as well. so its an official change. This is good
Yup, at least it gives some type of options for Ghazzy having an entourage when he's in a transport than being forced to lose all his Leader abilities.
Since the codex, I feel like Thrakka gaining the MANz' FNP is much more interesting than gaining his buffs. Him getting sniped by epic challenge was way too common in my games.
Jidmah wrote: Since the codex, I feel like Thrakka gaining the MANz' FNP is much more interesting than gaining his buffs. Him getting sniped by epic challenge was way too common in my games.
Too true, especially now that he's far from his former tanky self from 9th edition. I miss him feeling like a mini-game boss but I get why they changed him back to leading units.
Does Ghaz and makari give up 8 assassination points or only 4? It does say on the secondary, that each character model gives up 4 points, but i feel like thats stupid as hell.
Actually edit:
On fixed it says: If you are using Fixed Missions, then while this Secondary Mission is active, each time an enemy CHARACTER model is destroyed, you score 4VP.
On tactical it says: One or more enemy CHARACTER units were destroyed during this turn.
So essentially ghaz and makari counts for 4 victory points per model if you go for fixed, but if you go for tactical, you HAVE to kill both models to get the 5 points? Why is there a difference between how you score this secondary, based on whether its fixed or tactical?
They start off the article by saying that bully boys is the strongest detatchment.
I dont really agree with that at all. If as many people wanted to play greentide as there are players playing bully boys, you would most likely have more victories as greentide.
There are just not that many people that want to move 100+ models around for 5-7 battles at GTs.
They clearly just went at win rates and how many people play Bully boys compared to other ork detatchments. It also mean i doubt the article was written by an ork player.
Edit: Having now read the article i guess it was decent enough to explain bully boys in all of its glory. But i still wouldnt call it "the" strongest.
Well, I because I outragouesly ignore my hobby - posting there the lists from Competitive Innovations - during the last few weeks /months, it is harder to show the exact evidence. So in this point, trust me
Bully boyz are 95% of the lists posted in CI and the more codex is played, the more Bully Boyz you see.
There was exactly one Dread Mob list, one Wartribe and couple of Greentides.
Of course, your argument about “don' t wanna play 120 boyz” could be valid.
At this point I allow myself few general comments.
- My first assumptuons and comments saying “speed freaks are useless detachement” profed to be true. Pointles. The root of the problem are extremely weak and useless datasheets of the buggies and than low synergy concept of the whole detachement. There are simply no usefull targets fot the detschement strats etc.
- despite deep wide range of options of the new codex declered by everybody, checking the lists it seems it is (except the Dread mob) just a couple of option how to field the MANz + Nobz + Boyz, preferably in trukks. However, you can choose the battlewagon too. And yes, the best rule synergy in speedfreeks is the MANz in Trukk too…
- winning ork lists looks after couple of weeks very much the same. 3xwarboss, 3xmegawarboss, 3xMANz, 2-3x Nobz + some boyz + 3 Trukks + variations. You can pack it as a Bully boyz, Greentide or Wartribe. There used to be a lot of Squighog boyz recently, but they seems to disappear.
- From my side of view, loosing the FW was not only the loosing of the nice models, but big loss in list building options too.
The issue with list diversity is that Nobz and MANz have generically very good synergy with their respective leaders, and that the subfaction bonuses and strats generally also benefit them.
They're generically good units and they fit in most lists through keywords, however it's that goodness that means that everyone and their mother just loads up on as many MANz and Nobz as possible and calls it a day.
I'd say that rather than tweaking their datasheets, it's probably the subfaction bonuses and strats that need adjustment. Making them ever so slightly more exclusive so that Nobz don't just benefit from everything
Bully Boyz strats exclusively targeting Nobz and MANZ pretty much forces that list to be what it is. There's some solid options for Warboss heavy options in the double WAAAGH! but they really lose out only having access to generic strats.
Green Tide is similiar. Boyz being the only Boyz means that list is always going to look like that.
Squighogs are in a weird place. I'm really glad they got the change they did, but the new unit ends up costing too much, despite the PPM being lower.
Squiggasaurs have similar issues. The generic one is fine, but doesn't have any great synergies. Ultimately it just feels like 250 for BSB+BeastBoss in a Trukk does the same thing as 4 Hogs and a Saur.
I haven't decided yet, but I think Moz might be better on his own as a distraction Carnifex. He's absolutely terrifying when he gets in, but doubling his cost for ablative wounds he gives no real buffs to is pretty disappointing.
List was: 2x grots 1x Boyz 1x Beast snagga boys with beastboss
2x5 Nobz with powerklaws and warboss 2x5 MANZ with twin killsaws and warboss in mega armor (tellyporta on one) 1x5 MANZ with killsaw/powerklaw with Ghaz and makari 1x5 Stormboyz
1x Battlewagon with ard case, everything you can put on it and a zapp gun, to retain 22 embarking slots 2x Trukks
I played against Blood Angels, Chaos Space Marines (Renegade raiders) and unending swarm tyranids.
Hardest battle by far was blood angels, where as the rest were actually cake walks. Chaos space marine should have an advantage by also having transports with legionnaires/Chosen, forge fiends and venomcrawlers, but he messed up big time. I also feel like unending swarm messed up a decent amount but i was a bit afraid of whether or not I could chew my way through all those models.
Either way, I went (WTC score) 13-7 against Blood angels, 18-2 against Chaos Space Marines, and 17-3 against Unending swarm.
Bully boys is really good. And while Ghaz often didnt get in to combat, he was a big "No go Zone" all around him so i felt like he did well even if he is slow. Over all, great detatchment, which will sadly mean nerfs for Mega Nobz i think. I just dont hope they become more expensive, because you can only use stratagems and MANZ and Nobz, and if they make us take even fewer MANZ that means less units to use stratagems on with Bully Boyz, which would be.. stupid. If they make MANZ more expensive, the stratagems should definitely be able to be used on warbosses too. I hope they just attemt to go "5+++" rather than a "4+++" as a balance point. Because more expensive MANZ just mess up many things, not necessarily for bully boyz, but for every other detatchment. They would also see more varied lists if suddenly warbosses could use stratagems too. I wouldnt be forced to get Nobz and MANZ. Maybe more beastsnagga boys with Beastbosses or squighogs would be more relevant too.
While i would pay 35 points for a mega Nob in bully boyz, im not sure i would outside of it. Because anyone not playing bullyboyz, only get that FNP in 50% of the battles they fight, namely those they went first. If you go second, odds are, your FNP will never be a thing. So paying 35 points for a buff that is never relevant, isnt great.
It's more likely that MANz recieve a minor nerf while some of the bully boyz stratagems get hit to bring the detachment back in line with green tide, wartribe and dreadmob.
I've not played any 10th. Seeing the Green Tide is back has me wondering.
What is the maximum number of Ork boys one could put in a green tide list? For like a fun game with a friend so the list wouldn't exactly need to be optimal but thematic.
warhead01 wrote: I've not played any 10th. Seeing the Green Tide is back has me wondering.
What is the maximum number of Ork boys one could put in a green tide list? For like a fun game with a friend so the list wouldn't exactly need to be optimal but thematic.
The detachment specifies Boyz specifically so the answer is the max of 6 Battleline units that top out at 20 a piece for 120 Boyz to eat up 1020 points. Most people attach 3 Warbosses and 3 Painboyz and 1-2 Weirdboyz to the mix.
They don't really benefit from the detachment, but if your goal is to literally just spam Boyz, you can technically fill out the rest with the Beast Snagga variety. 3 20 man and 3 10 man would come to 945. Unfortunately the cheapest character to be a warlord is 45, so you'd probably have to drop a squad of them somewhere.
I'm not thrilled with only being allowed 120 Ork boys in a list. Never cared for the Snagga boys. Dislike the models. Not gaming right now so I can't justify finding cool 3rd party boys to proxy the bill for that unit.
My first reaction to the Snaggas was what about a kan and dread wall in their place. I used to run kans, dread and boys in my lists all the time.
Yeah, unfortunately Kanz aren't cheap enough to really spam in other detachments and don't have enough oomph in their baseline datasheet to really be able to carry themselves well without the stratagem/detachment rules support from Dred Mob. They also don't really mix that well with Boyz since it gives an easy target for the medium/heavy anti-tank guns that your opponent might have rather than having them waste it on 1W boyz.
Yeah, generally speaking with Orks you want to pick one thing and just lean waaaaay into it. Kanz work best when they're surrounded by other Kan-like units that take similar amounts of punishment. Kanz, Dreads, Nauts, etc.
Based on general statlines I could see them being added as a midfield support unit to a Bully Boyz list that leans into MANz and Hogs, but you're probably better using Flash Gitz for ranged support there.
But yeah, just go all in on your main unit type and pick some support units to go with to fill gaps.
There was a big parade of various green tides on German Super Major from pure infantry to mechanized version. Check the lists there!
And btw for everybody - those who said there was not so much green tide because of “have not enough boyz” or “maybe it' s too much work to play so many boyz, clock will kill you.” - well, all problems solved, it seems greentide definitely works
There was a big parade of various green tides on German Super Major from pure infantry to mechanized version. Check the lists there!
Forgive me if this is obvious, I'm quite sleep deprived, but where is the mechanised Green Tide list? I can see one that has a single kill rig, but that's it.
Jidmah wrote: It's more likely that MANz recieve a minor nerf while some of the bully boyz stratagems get hit to bring the detachment back in line with green tide, wartribe and dreadmob.
I still see +10ppm which will put them on the pricey side but playable. And the loss of 150pts hurts bullyboys immensely since they lose about 2 units for scoring.
There was a big parade of various green tides on German Super Major from pure infantry to mechanized version. Check the lists there!
Forgive me if this is obvious, I'm quite sleep deprived, but where is the mechanised Green Tide list? I can see one that has a single kill rig, but that's it.
I don't think it's just you, I believe that list called the "techy green tide" which might have been misconstrued as mechanized instead of just "teched" up for the current meta.
Jidmah wrote: It's more likely that MANz recieve a minor nerf while some of the bully boyz stratagems get hit to bring the detachment back in line with green tide, wartribe and dreadmob.
I still see +10ppm which will put them on the pricey side but playable. And the loss of 150pts hurts bullyboys immensely since they lose about 2 units for scoring.
I still need to get a game in with Bully Boyz in their prime before the nerf comes in, when is the next balance dataslate supposed to come out again?
There was a big parade of various green tides on German Super Major from pure infantry to mechanized version. Check the lists there!
Forgive me if this is obvious, I'm quite sleep deprived, but where is the mechanised Green Tide list? I can see one that has a single kill rig, but that's it.
I don't think it's just you, I believe that list called the "techy green tide" which might have been misconstrued as mechanized instead of just "teched" up for the current meta.
Jidmah wrote: It's more likely that MANz recieve a minor nerf while some of the bully boyz stratagems get hit to bring the detachment back in line with green tide, wartribe and dreadmob.
I still see +10ppm which will put them on the pricey side but playable. And the loss of 150pts hurts bullyboys immensely since they lose about 2 units for scoring.
I still need to get a game in with Bully Boyz in their prime before the nerf comes in, when is the next balance dataslate supposed to come out again?
anyone checked the new mission pack? There is a lot of focus in battleline and actions
I think it has potential to shape meta. Some of them are easy to do if the opponent fails to bring battleline.. There is also some + that benefit it for having them.
Great.. a double nerf for Mega Nobz. 5+++ during the waaagh AND a 10+ point increase.
In a detatchment where you can already only use stratagems on nobz and mega nobz, they should have at least added warbosses to the stratagem list, to make up for the fact, that many will take maybe only 2 units of MANZ.
Also MANZ are only useful in bully boys now. they seem super duper dead in any other detatchment. Imagine paying 40 points for MANZ in a normal detatchment, and you get turn 2, thus gaining nothing from the waaagh.
Thats fething sad. I get they need nerfs but it always goes wrong when they double down on nerfs.
Edit:
Abilities triggering on the waaagh also dont trigger if you were in a transport at the time. So now MANZ units dont even get the FNP if they started in a transport, warbosses dont get extra attacks and warboss in mega armor dont get +1 damage..
What the hell is wrong with GW? Thats completely out of line. and we still pay 40 points for MANZ now? Christ on a stick
Yeesh, they really didnt hold back for orks when it comes to nerfs. Like BeardedDragon said, this means meganobz are basically DOA for anything not Bully Boyz. I would have just settled for a 5+ FNP.
Green Tide fares a little better but a bit annoying again they reduced it to a 6+ invuln AND they increased the support costs of units like Painboyz and Weirdboyz.
Sucks I wasn't able to get that game in time before the changes since it was cancelled but I can live vicariously through old BR I guess
Beardedragon wrote: Great.. a double nerf for Mega Nobz. 5+++ during the waaagh AND a 10+ point increase.
In a detatchment where you can already only use stratagems on nobz and mega nobz, they should have at least added warbosses to the stratagem list, to make up for the fact, that many will take maybe only 2 units of MANZ.
Also MANZ are only useful in bully boys now. they seem super duper dead in any other detatchment. Imagine paying 40 points for MANZ in a normal detatchment, and you get turn 2, thus gaining nothing from the waaagh.
Thats fething sad. I get they need nerfs but it always goes wrong when they double down on nerfs.
Ouch yeah.. well it is what it is, I was thinking of this, GW always overreacts.. the 5 was enough the 10+pts was overkill... like you mentioned, outside bully boyz their effectively dead. They will pop up with gahz but I get the feeling this is completely community driven.
Well i don't know but i just acquired 9 and i probably not going to use them much now. Well I will try and paint, been too busy for games. Also green tide got a hit which was predictable, that one feels a lot more fair.
MANz will likely remain somewhat viable outside of Bully Boyz, they're just not as splashable as they were. 1 big brick to anchor the midboard is still a viable niche for them to fill. They're just not an auto-pick unit anymore for the other detachments, which is likely to be fairly healthy for the game, and list diversity in general.
I will say that the 10ppm increase is probably too much. I would have pushed for 5ppm at most if I were on the rules team, ultimately they're just a fairly slow moving melee threat unless you're investing even more points into transports for them. And that's ignoring the obligatory characters for the unit as well. The main issue with MANz was the +++ after all, which has been addressed. They'll likely go back down in points next time round.
Green Tide nerfs look sensible. They were a gear check list that bordered on obnoxious, and they look like they'll be fairly healthy after the rules adjustments.
There is no way in hell that im paying 40 points for a Mega Nob, that dont have a FNP in 50% of the battles outside of bully boys because i didnt get first turn.
And theres even LESS of a chance i will bring them, knowing that the turn i DID cast a waaagh, they were in a transport, thus removing their FNP ability.
So essentially you wont ever bring MANZ outside of bullyboys.
EDIT:
I have probably understood that ruling wrong. warbosses and warboss in mega armor surely dont get their extra attacks/Damage when starting in a transport, but i think the MANZ units still get their FNP.
But i still dont see MANZ outside of bully boyz. But i would still use them in bully boyz.
Yeah, I feel tank shock is the most relevant for us, now that it's based on toughness and no longer weapon strength, since it means Trukks with wrecking balls can't reliably pop 3-4 mortal wounds on enemy units to chip damage off on near-dead/depleted units.
Movement is a bit more relevant I think for Gorkanauts/Morkanauts where sometimes the overhang from the arms can clip buildings, so good to hear we can move through some tight spaces.
Free strats thankfully seem largely a non-Ork issue since we only have the one for Heroic Intervention from the Beastboss on Squigosaur.
Grimskul wrote: Yeesh, they really didnt hold back for orks when it comes to nerfs. Like BeardedDragon said, this means meganobz are basically DOA for anything not Bully Boyz. I would have just settled for a 5+ FNP.
Green Tide fares a little better but a bit annoying again they reduced it to a 6+ invuln AND they increased the support costs of units like Painboyz and Weirdboyz.
Sucks I wasn't able to get that game in time before the changes since it was cancelled but I can live vicariously through old BR I guess
I see the opposite.. manz are fine.. in bullyboys that’s 150pt nerf.. they didn’t touch the warboss in mega armor or regular warboss. The 4+ fnp to 5++ hurts but not a huge deal.. the 150pts means you lose obj secured unit or 2. That’s a little hard to deal with but playable.. biggest nerf is the fact your nobs with warboss better not be in a transport turn 2 for the Waagh because your warboss losses 3 atks. A unit of manz in warhorde with ghaz are fine as well.. mostly useless in greentide though (goodbye reroll 1s)
Greentide was hammered.. I doubt it’s competitive anymore.. going from 5+ invul to 6+ when under 10 fine.. 2x Strats becoming less reliable ouch but ok… +10 pts on all painboys and weirdboy basically makes painboys useless outside greentide.. (and why nuke the painboss it was already horrible since beastsnaggas get 6+ fnp already) BUT losing the reroll 1 on armor on ALL orks makes greentide much worse and was the only reason to take a unit of now expensive manz with bigmek in mega armor. and the final kicker throwing this detachment out of competitive is secondary missions that max out just for playing against greentide or multiple 20+ sized units. Greentide had 1 strategy surviving and winning by points.. take away a bunch of survival abilites and making it harder to win by points? Ya this detachment is dead.
Bullyboys will still be competitive but it looks like warhorde is the best detachment again.
With how secondaries are scored now, and with secret missions allow armies to ignore Main VP untill turn 5, loosing those units is massive for Bully boys, and on top of that Manz now die alot easier.
So Bully boys is dead in competative
That part's pretty lame, I kinda see why mechanically speaking why it might not work but it doesn't make sense that being in a Trukk somehow neuters a Warboss from getting his extra attack's that turn because that means you have to expose him/telegraph even harder for the Warboss to get the buff that he pays for on his datasheet for an ostensibly once per game ability.
That part's pretty lame, I kinda see why mechanically speaking why it might not work but it doesn't make sense that being in a Trukk somehow neuters a Warboss from getting his extra attack's that turn because that means you have to expose him/telegraph even harder for the Warboss to get the buff that he pays for on his datasheet for an ostensibly once per game ability.
It’s just how it’s worded it triggers when a Waagh is called.. unlike other Waagh abilities that say if a Waagh was called this round. Just effects warboss and warboss in mega armor as far as I see.. warboss in mega armor isn’t as bad going from damage 3 to damage 2, But the warboss is brutal for nobs in trukks w/ warboss.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They won’t change it but reroll 1s on armor should come back to greentide..
More importantly revert the +10pts to meganobs as it’s way to expensive and painboss because why?
The Nerf to MANz seems excessive, but GW has recently been known to dial back overnerfs. I'm honestly not that worried.
Painboss nerf is just GW being GW. They still haven't understood that the painboss is not bringing anything to the table that makes it better than a painboy.
Changes in the core rules too. Rotation of the model basicly cost 2” no matter how much you move or something like that. No time to check it, just saw some comments. This is a pretty big boost to Wagons or Rigs
The new rules and Pariah Nexus parameters kinda hoses over Speed Freeks significantly, since now they can't advance and do actions, nor can they throw grenades. Given that Speed Freeks was less about being killy and just being fast enough to max out secondaries with all the assault weapons, do you think the detachment is dead in the water until the next balance dataslate? I feel like they need to make Warbikers battleline in the detachment in order for them to have the flexibility needed to do actions. About the only thing good for Speed Freeks is that Bring it Down doesn't give as many points now.
Grimskul wrote: The new rules and Pariah Nexus parameters kinda hoses over Speed Freeks significantly, since now they can't advance and do actions, nor can they throw grenades. Given that Speed Freeks was less about being killy and just being fast enough to max out secondaries with all the assault weapons, do you think the detachment is dead in the water until the next balance dataslate? I feel like they need to make Warbikers battleline in the detachment in order for them to have the flexibility needed to do actions. About the only thing good for Speed Freeks is that Bring it Down doesn't give as many points now.
On the plus side movement is easier… on the bad side tankshock is worse… to be fair movement was one of the biggest issues with speedfreaks and that is mostly fixed. I agree warbikers should be battleline.. but I also think trukk boys should be speedfreak tagged as well for more trukk boy action.
I still like using speed freaks just so I can have a Mega Nob in Power Armor and 5 Mega Nobs in a Trukk with fasta Den Yooz enhancement.
Then I just use "Speediest Freak" to give the Trukk an invulnerable save lol. Enemy spends all their time shooting the trukk before the Mega Nobz roll in and Krump. Meanwhile all my speed freaks are just throwing squigs at people and causing them to fail battle shock tests lol.
That's the main problem with detachments like these, depending on how its written for certain units, it forces GW to price units as if you would always take them in that detachment (making them basically DoA in other detachments as we see now) or the baseline datasheet is underpowered unless its taken in a certain detachment where it then becomes passable.
Whitebeard wrote: Do ya'll think a Dredd Mob list can compete with World Eaters?
That's a rather broad question - heavily depends on both lists.
My personal experience is that's it's rather easy for a dread mob to shoot Angron off the table multiple times, plus you cause massive casualties from shooting and getting the charge on anything. On the flipside, you struggle to actually hold onto objectives since pretty much nothing will survive getting charged by a WE unit. It feels a bit like playing chess, you kill one of theirs, they kill one of yours.
In any case, mek guns, lootas and nauts pull much more weight against WE than boyz, MANz or deff dreads do.
The WE player I'm regularly facing prefers blood for the blood god over minor issues like tactics, so I can't actually tell you how well I would perform against a truly skilled player.
Whitebeard wrote: Do ya'll think a Dredd Mob list can compete with World Eaters?
Yes.
But then my own Grot force packs enough firepower to shoot most things off the board.
Does your grot force's heavy hitters mainly comprise of mek gunz and killa kanz? Not sure if you're still using legends unit like grot tanks.
Im not a tourney player, so yes, i use all the rules of the game (ie. Legends)
Grot tanks (usually taken in units of 4 as I've found 8 gets unwieldy to move)
Grot Mega Tanks
Mek Gunz
Kanz
Big gunz
Grots
Red Gobbo - the leader of the army.
Etc
If it's a grot thing it's in the force.
Then there's a few non-grot things as well.
●Trucks - vital for getting grots to where they need to be in one piece.
●Wazbomb - because in 9e Crusade I HAD to have a Mek unit to utilize some of the Crusade rules. So I chose the one that was most usefull & didn't require me to put an actual ork on the table.
●●Grot Bomb Launcha.
It's gotten less effective this edition. :( But a thing that fires a grot ridden bomb at the enemy seems on theme....
●War-Boss in Mega armour.
Because in 9e Crusade rules I could not lead the army with the Red Gobbo. :(
●War-Boss on Squigosaur.
He's actually for a different WiP Ork project, but I didn't want to wait that long to use him. So for our final 9e Crusade he was the War-Boss.
●Squiggoths - sometimes my grots bring some dinos to the party.
●Mek Workshop
Whitebeard wrote: Do ya'll think a Dredd Mob list can compete with World Eaters?
That's a rather broad question - heavily depends on both lists.
My personal experience is that's it's rather easy for a dread mob to shoot Angron off the table multiple times, plus you cause massive casualties from shooting and getting the charge on anything. On the flipside, you struggle to actually hold onto objectives since pretty much nothing will survive getting charged by a WE unit. It feels a bit like playing chess, you kill one of theirs, they kill one of yours.
In any case, mek guns, lootas and nauts pull much more weight against WE than boyz, MANz or deff dreads do.
The WE player I'm regularly facing prefers blood for the blood god over minor issues like tactics, so I can't actually tell you how well I would perform against a truly skilled player.
I'd like to build a list around Gorkanauts/Morkanauts. What would be better against WE? I'd like to bring two of them. What would you bring with them in 1500 points?
Whitebeard wrote: Do ya'll think a Dredd Mob list can compete with World Eaters?
That's a rather broad question - heavily depends on both lists.
My personal experience is that's it's rather easy for a dread mob to shoot Angron off the table multiple times, plus you cause massive casualties from shooting and getting the charge on anything. On the flipside, you struggle to actually hold onto objectives since pretty much nothing will survive getting charged by a WE unit. It feels a bit like playing chess, you kill one of theirs, they kill one of yours. In any case, mek guns, lootas and nauts pull much more weight against WE than boyz, MANz or deff dreads do.
The WE player I'm regularly facing prefers blood for the blood god over minor issues like tactics, so I can't actually tell you how well I would perform against a truly skilled player.
I'd like to build a list around Gorkanauts/Morkanauts. What would be better against WE? I'd like to bring two of them. What would you bring with them in 1500 points?
In a dred mob list, I would say Gorkanauts are better because of the extra attack and their shooting bizarrely can be better than the Morkanauts with the appropriate buffs. The Morkanaut really should have BS4+ base OR at least S12-14 on it's Kustom Mega Zzappa
If you have a mek to spare for running after the naut, the Gorkanaut is better, but also more expensive and you can't really put that mek in a useful unit anymore. Against WE a gorkanaut's extra melee capabilities are also not that important. If it gets charged, it dies.
Without mek support, I'd go for the morkanaut, as +1 to hit multiplies with the other two shooting stratagems you can drop on him and more than two instances of hazardous don't make the gun worse - so feel free to push it on both stratagems an select the best buff for the situation. Combined with sustained hits, statistically you get as many hits as you have shots without suffering an extra penalty.
I don't think multiple nauts really help you win more. You can get away with one naut due to how well it scales with the stratagems, but every naut beyond the first is just dead weight reducing your ability to control the board. They are not hard to kill and they don't do anything exception kanz or dreads can't do just as good. Multiple nauts is probably good enough for a fun game, but nor for reliably winning games.
Whitebeard wrote: What would you bring against World Eaters from Dred mob?
Lootas with SAG Mek (ideally one with the ignores cover enhancement) leading them for decent fire support, likewise with mek guns. Basically, you want to have some countercharge units from killa kanz and the naut with deff dreadz while your fire support whittles them down at the beginning of the game. I'm not sure if boyz with Meks are worth it, but they could bring much needed OC bodies to contest middle board objectives. Otherwise, you want your unit of grots on your home objective as usual alongside some stormboyz for late game mobility.
Yup, SAG+lootas+gitfinder is pretty much an auto-take for dread mob.
You kind of need boyz to hold objectives as none of the walkers have the durability to do so. Shoota boyz with warboss and drill/KMB mek work great against melee-focused armies, especially if you keep some CP points to force your opponent to play around overwatch.
I'm not sure if MANz are actually worth that many points anymore, but I don't really have an alternative plan for a durable midfield unit. If you hand over the middle without a fight, I doubt you stand a chance in regards to VP. I guess instead of spending 350 on a single unit of MANz you could just plonk down 3 units of 3 kanz and have two of them counter-charge whatever murdered the third one.
I agree on the gretchin and stormboyz. all of dread mob's true power is hidden in its stratagems, so you should absolutely bring 2 units of gretchin. If you are playing the new mission deck, keep in mind that they gain battle line.
Storm boyz, Snikrot or SJD are needed for scoring and and threatening backfield, you are not going to run anything past a WE frontline.
Well, orks droped to 36% win rate this week, so the nerfhammer worked well
Honestly, last year or so I feel overhelmed by the constant changes in the game. I understand, that changes keeps the game balanced and interesting, but it seems, someone forgot that this hobby is also about modeling and painting and such ridiculous speed of developement totaly anihilate the chance to paint the army to play competitively…
Has anyone had any success with any shooting platform? I am currently looking at lootaz and flash gitz.. last game i noticed the lack of it painfully..
Anyone care to share it's experience? I used unitcrunch to check the best and lootaz seems to be on top
Tomsug wrote:Well, orks droped to 36% win rate this week, so the nerfhammer worked well
Honestly, last year or so I feel overhelmed by the constant changes in the game. I understand, that changes keeps the game balanced and interesting, but it seems, someone forgot that this hobby is also about modeling and painting and such ridiculous speed of developement totaly anihilate the chance to paint the army to play competitively…
The double whammy of everyone adapting their lists to deal with our kind of skew, and a nerf bat taken to our kind of skew. The meta will adapt to Orks no longer rampaging across the top tables, and then the nerfs will be somewhat corrected. Then we'll be back. Remember, we never lose, we just come back for another fight later
Forceride wrote:Has anyone had any success with any shooting platform? I am currently looking at lootaz and flash gitz.. last game i noticed the lack of it painfully..
Anyone care to share it's experience? I used unitcrunch to check the best and lootaz seems to be on top
I know Jidmah is a pretty big advocate of lootas with a SAG in dread mob. Flash Gitz are still solid, and if you can but then with a Mek a Gorkanaut or even a Stompa can be pretty spooky. Lootas are definitely our premier shooting unit at the moment though.
Oh yeah i been reading Jidmah.. i also agree.. although the push the button faster might be as good on them.. i am currently sporting a bully detach.. after last match against eldar was pretty rough , so i was reminded of my match with DG and advice from my opponent to look into more shooting..
Another thing i am concluding is the kill rig as a center piece, and after this game i really enjoy its durability versus running meganobz with big mek.. I dunno maybe i rolled poorly but they didn't seem that durable at a whooping 340... that's 2 kill rigs price...
Well enough rambling thx for the advice will take a look maybe i will run both.
I'm not that sure you can actually build a decent gunline-ish army outside of dread mob. Almost all our shooting either chips away at a target before you charge it, or you dogpile a ton of guns from various units onto a hard target to make it go away.
Having some part of your army hang back and pick off enemy threats is currently not something that one of the melee focused detachments can do. However, you can absolutely take out a landraider or greater demon in a single round of shooting by pointing the entire army's rokkits and KMBs at it. They are our best guns currently, but we can't have dedicated units of them like eldar or primaris do.
Too bad they neutered the burna wagon to just 11 flamers at a time. It was a terror for my opponents
Forceride wrote: Has anyone had any success with any shooting platform? I am currently looking at lootaz and flash gitz.. last game i noticed the lack of it painfully..
Anyone care to share it's experience? I used unitcrunch to check the best and lootaz seems to be on top
Yes, my Grot tank co.
Take everything Grot related. Combine with dreadmob. Point gunz toward enemy & fire.
Meanwhile take objectives with foot grots (my own ride around in trucks)
I'm definitely kind of at a loss post dataslate. I've got enough points of Orks but the points just don't feel like they come together into an army anymore. I keep building armies that come to like 1965.
Jidmah wrote: I'm not that sure you can actually build a decent gunline-ish army outside of dread mob. Almost all our shooting either chips away at a target before you charge it, or you dogpile a ton of guns from various units onto a hard target to make it go away.
Having some part of your army hang back and pick off enemy threats is currently not something that one of the melee focused detachments can do. However, you can absolutely take out a landraider or greater demon in a single round of shooting by pointing the entire army's rokkits and KMBs at it.
They are our best guns currently, but we can't have dedicated units of them like eldar or primaris do.
Too bad they neutered the burna wagon to just 11 flamers at a time. It was a terror for my opponents
Yeah, our heyday of 5th ed with lootas glancing things to death while shoota boyz mobs drowned infantry in buckets of shots, or the SSAG double shooting of 8th and the buggy shooting spam of 9th has definitely passed as GW has continually curbed our shooting potential in favour of CC prowess so that we now effectively are much more of a choppy with a side of shootin type army rather than the other way around for what a lot of our lists looked like historically, which isn't necessarily bad but it does suck that the "DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA" element of Orks has been harder to specialize in. I think tankbustas at some level could have helped fill in that niche but the lack of a new plastic kit means its relegated to the "no models, no rules" zone of uselessness with their fixed loadout at the moment. Having a dedicated gunwagon not based on the battlewagon chassis would help give us a sense of shootiness if they choose to go that route in future Ork army additions.
One of the bigger issues is that from buggies to koptas to battlewagon and kill rigs many ork shooting plattforms have a "main gun" which doesn't actually feel like a main gun. A battlewagon dwarves a predator in size, number of guns and caliber, but it still only amounts to killing a marine or two or 2-4 damage against a vehicle.
Why doesn't the killkannon have the same profile as a battlecannon? Why is the zzap gun just one shot at BS5+?
Even on the new mek, I don't ever see myself wanting the traktor cannon profile because it's just so much worse than the KMB.
When everything is average strength, average ap, average amount of hits - you pick up the free/cheap average guns you get all over the army, no need to bring a dedicated unit for them.
I really love my buggies and would add them to my dreadmob to get some more mobility - but neither the boomdakka snazzwagon, nor the scrapjet nor the KBB bring anything to the table that isn't already covered by just sticking rokkits and KMB everywhere you can.
Not sure what to say.. we aren't WE.. but it feels like it.
To me.. we lack shoots and strg in just about every weapon..
A tad disheartening that we feel like 2/3 of an army
if we had a melee and survival like some of the best i could understand having such anaemic shooting output.. but i hear even WE have viable platforms for shooting
The missions i been reading and playing also line up against us.. the nerfs are just pilling on top plus the legends move... It's even worst then the codex Custodes at launch.. we went from top to bottom just like genstealers...
Been positive all through the ups and downs this edition but i am pretty close to just say f it and not bother, GW can fix the mess, and wait or just try and find some player driven proper rules
If they wanna sell sculps, this just makes me not want to buy. Why waste money when i can just paint the current ones... and i am not a fan of painting...
depressing really.. maybe i am the prob and investing to much mind process on this..
Jidmah wrote: Why is the zzap gun just one shot at BS5+?
Because that's been its stats for at least two editions now?
Sticking to bad rules just because they are old is not a good thing unless you are part of the completely disconnected dakka bubble.
On the BS5;
Look, you are an Ork player, who as far as I can tell primarily runs ORKS.
Long ago GW decided that ORKS have a poor BS. Good+ bs = Marines, average bs = Guard, poor bs = orks.
Within the Ork army Grots stood out as being better at shooting than the orks.
As such bs5 is the challenge that you have to account for with most shooty entries in the ork roster.
If your complaining about orky bs5? Well that ship sailed a looong time ago....
If you want to play a more accurate shooting army? Pivot to using Grots, bs4 units (they exist), or pick a different faction.
On 1 shot;
Yeah, the orky lascannon has a RoF of 1. So what?
You want a higher RoF? Pick a different weapon.
That logic falls flat in it's face when we are also supposed to be the volume army
So yeah, marines have the BS, but orks have the volume, shooting the equivalent of 4 shots to each of the marine
Your also simplifying a complex issue.. it's not BS that is the issue, that's not the complain.
The issue is the lack of volume, the slash number of shots from previous edition as well as Strg, the drop of dakka rule, and the fact that we don't exactly have much resilience and depend on numbers a lot, so our stuff kind either needs to get cheaper or our melee needs to compensate for for anaemic shooting.
The end result is we get pigeonholed into being strictly melee because we lack rules datasheets and tools to handle what other armies can do with shooting. Take also in consideration that the shooting game is massively overpowered versus melee..
So your comparison is like comparing potato's to oranges.
had a game recently where i brought 280 points of shooting, they managed around 10 to 12 wounds over 3 rounds, that's 4 wounds on average per round for 280pts, all perfect profiles for the guns btw.
take a look at the lootaz the amount of requirements just for them to shoot well it crazy.
I don't think any ork player is asking custodes level shooting or tau. We just want the shots we lost and Strg we need for most our platforms be viable. Take the buggies as example, you never see them in the tables at current points, cut them to 50 and you probably see them, but not for the DPS, they will take the role of frontline fodder like gretching to move block... that's how bad they are, their as much worth as a unit of gretchin, so they need to be absurdly cheap.
This also isn't considering the plethora of units and abilities/strats/enhancements that provide built in -1 to hit, which disproportionately impacts Ork shooting compared to other factions, to the point you basically shouldn't even bother rolling the dice in most instances since it's a full 50% decrease in accuracy barring grot shooting or buffed up units from Meks.
Ork shooting needs a good solid look as to how it's addressed within the confines of the 5+ BS framework and either actually make it so that it's consistent enough through volume OR we have to shift the fundamentals of this baseline BS to bring quality back in for our shooting. Given that they've fixed Ork movement to be normal again, I don't see it being weird to have BS4+ as the baseline for dedicated shooting units and having BS5+ more for the pistol and non-shooting focused units. We basically had a taste of this with Meks and Flash Gitz in the previous edition.
Jidmah wrote: Why is the zzap gun just one shot at BS5+?
Because that's been its stats for at least two editions now?
Sticking to bad rules just because they are old is not a good thing unless you are part of the completely disconnected dakka bubble.
On the BS5; Look, you are an Ork player, who as far as I can tell primarily runs ORKS. Long ago GW decided that ORKS have a poor BS. Good+ bs = Marines, average bs = Guard, poor bs = orks. Within the Ork army Grots stood out as being better at shooting than the orks. As such bs5 is the challenge that you have to account for with most shooty entries in the ork roster. If your complaining about orky bs5? Well that ship sailed a looong time ago.... If you want to play a more accurate shooting army? Pivot to using Grots, bs4 units (they exist), or pick a different faction.
On 1 shot; Yeah, the orky lascannon has a RoF of 1. So what? You want a higher RoF? Pick a different weapon.
Your response to "the zzap gun is bad and needs an overhaul because it's lacking as a primary weapon for big tank" is literally "play something else"?
If you have nothing to contribute to a discussion, just don't post. You are literally the little kid at GW stores which pushes themselves into every discussion and starts talking about gretchin unprompted, despite not a single person giving a gak.
We get it, you play gretchin. Now shut up and let the grown-ups talk.
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Forceride wrote: That logic falls flat in it's face when we are also supposed to be the volume army
So yeah, marines have the BS, but orks have the volume, shooting the equivalent of 4 shots to each of the marine
Your also simplifying a complex issue.. it's not BS that is the issue, that's not the complain.
The issue is the lack of volume, the slash number of shots from previous edition as well as Strg, the drop of dakka rule, and the fact that we don't exactly have much resilience and depend on numbers a lot, so our stuff kind either needs to get cheaper or our melee needs to compensate for for anaemic shooting.
The end result is we get pigeonholed into being strictly melee because we lack rules datasheets and tools to handle what other armies can do with shooting. Take also in consideration that the shooting game is massively overpowered versus melee..
So your comparison is like comparing potato's to oranges.
had a game recently where i brought 280 points of shooting, they managed around 10 to 12 wounds over 3 rounds, that's 4 wounds on average per round for 280pts, all perfect profiles for the guns btw.
take a look at the lootaz the amount of requirements just for them to shoot well it crazy.
I don't think any ork player is asking custodes level shooting or tau. We just want the shots we lost and Strg we need for most our platforms be viable. Take the buggies as example, you never see them in the tables at current points, cut them to 50 and you probably see them, but not for the DPS, they will take the role of frontline fodder like gretching to move block... that's how bad they are, their as much worth as a unit of gretchin, so they need to be absurdly cheap.
Well-written anaylis, full agree. Since my dread mob army has KMB all over the place, it's really an eye-opener how great this gun has become. From a joke option which was more likely to kill they wielder than the target, it has become an all-rounder mid-strength weapon that is decent against a great number of targets. Same goes for the rokkit launcha, with d3 shots and blast it's a versatile weapon that becomes a reliable threat for the sole reasons that you can easily bring a dozen of them without great cost.
Most guns in our codex will shoot twice on average over the course of a game. The rest of the game our units will either be out of range, out of sight or dead. If a gun that cannot easily be spammed, like the buggies' main guns or the zzap gun, average to at least one successful wound roll across those two shoting phases against its preferred target, that's just a worthless weapon.
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Grimskul wrote: This also isn't considering the plethora of units and abilities/strats/enhancements that provide built in -1 to hit, which disproportionately impacts Ork shooting compared to other factions, to the point you basically shouldn't even bother rolling the dice in most instances since it's a full 50% decrease in accuracy barring grot shooting or buffed up units from Meks.
Ork shooting needs a good solid look as to how it's addressed within the confines of the 5+ BS framework and either actually make it so that it's consistent enough through volume OR we have to shift the fundamentals of this baseline BS to bring quality back in for our shooting. Given that they've fixed Ork movement to be normal again, I don't see it being weird to have BS4+ as the baseline for dedicated shooting units and having BS5+ more for the pistol and non-shooting focused units. We basically had a taste of this with Meks and Flash Gitz in the previous edition.
Honestly, I don't feel like -1 to hit is as big a problem in 10th. Most times you can play around it or just charge the stealthy unit and clobber it. And even though the boom-dakka snazzwagon isn't a great unit, it's overwatch has ruined many people's days even if it only hits on sixes, same is true for many other mid tier shooting units.
Forceride wrote: That logic falls flat in it's face when we are also supposed to be the volume army
So yeah, marines have the BS, but orks have the volume, shooting the equivalent of 4 shots to each of the marine
Your also simplifying a complex issue.. it's not BS that is the issue, that's not the complain.
The issue is the lack of volume, the slash number of shots from previous edition as well as Strg, the drop of dakka rule, and the fact that we don't exactly have much resilience and depend on numbers a lot, so our stuff kind either needs to get cheaper or our melee needs to compensate for for anaemic shooting.
The end result is we get pigeonholed into being strictly melee because we lack rules datasheets and tools to handle what other armies can do with shooting. Take also in consideration that the shooting game is massively overpowered versus melee..
So your comparison is like comparing potato's to oranges.
had a game recently where i brought 280 points of shooting, they managed around 10 to 12 wounds over 3 rounds, that's 4 wounds on average per round for 280pts, all perfect profiles for the guns btw.
take a look at the lootaz the amount of requirements just for them to shoot well it crazy.
I don't think any ork player is asking custodes level shooting or tau. We just want the shots we lost and Strg we need for most our platforms be viable. Take the buggies as example, you never see them in the tables at current points, cut them to 50 and you probably see them, but not for the DPS, they will take the role of frontline fodder like gretching to move block... that's how bad they are, their as much worth as a unit of gretchin, so they need to be absurdly cheap.
personally I’d drop the 5+++ from the waaagh rule and add a dakka section as part of the army rule.
Something like units being led by a leader unit add +X attacks to rapid fire weapons in rapid fire range, and different leaders provide a different dakka bonus. So a pain boy could be dakka1 while a mek is dakka2 and a warboss dakka3, and ghaz would be dakka4.
So shoots boyz w/ pain boss would get 4 attacks in RF range.
It feels weird that ork shooting is just plain bad, and not bad, but good in volume.
Forceride wrote: That logic falls flat in it's face when we are also supposed to be the volume army
So yeah, marines have the BS, but orks have the volume, shooting the equivalent of 4 shots to each of the marine
Your also simplifying a complex issue.. it's not BS that is the issue, that's not the complain.
The issue is the lack of volume, the slash number of shots from previous edition as well as Strg, the drop of dakka rule, and the fact that we don't exactly have much resilience and depend on numbers a lot, so our stuff kind either needs to get cheaper or our melee needs to compensate for for anaemic shooting.
The end result is we get pigeonholed into being strictly melee because we lack rules datasheets and tools to handle what other armies can do with shooting. Take also in consideration that the shooting game is massively overpowered versus melee..
So your comparison is like comparing potato's to oranges.
had a game recently where i brought 280 points of shooting, they managed around 10 to 12 wounds over 3 rounds, that's 4 wounds on average per round for 280pts, all perfect profiles for the guns btw.
take a look at the lootaz the amount of requirements just for them to shoot well it crazy.
I don't think any ork player is asking custodes level shooting or tau. We just want the shots we lost and Strg we need for most our platforms be viable. Take the buggies as example, you never see them in the tables at current points, cut them to 50 and you probably see them, but not for the DPS, they will take the role of frontline fodder like gretching to move block... that's how bad they are, their as much worth as a unit of gretchin, so they need to be absurdly cheap.
personally I’d drop the 5+++ from the waaagh rule and add a dakka section as part of the army rule.
Something like units being led by a leader unit add +X attacks to rapid fire weapons in rapid fire range, and different leaders provide a different dakka bonus. So a pain boy could be dakka1 while a mek is dakka2 and a warboss dakka3, and ghaz would be dakka4.
So shoots boyz w/ pain boss would get 6 attacks in RF range.
I don't see how you're getting 6 shots from a 2 attack weapon with Rapid Fire 1 and a +1 boost to number of shots.
I also don't think firing four shots per member of a 20 man blob is a good idea-not when it kills a grand total of two MEQ, one Gravis, or 1.5 wounds to a TEQ.
It'd certainly be a damage boost, but the sheer amount of dice to roll would be annoying.
Forceride wrote: That logic falls flat in it's face when we are also supposed to be the volume army
So yeah, marines have the BS, but orks have the volume, shooting the equivalent of 4 shots to each of the marine
Your also simplifying a complex issue.. it's not BS that is the issue, that's not the complain.
The issue is the lack of volume, the slash number of shots from previous edition as well as Strg, the drop of dakka rule, and the fact that we don't exactly have much resilience and depend on numbers a lot, so our stuff kind either needs to get cheaper or our melee needs to compensate for for anaemic shooting.
The end result is we get pigeonholed into being strictly melee because we lack rules datasheets and tools to handle what other armies can do with shooting. Take also in consideration that the shooting game is massively overpowered versus melee..
So your comparison is like comparing potato's to oranges.
had a game recently where i brought 280 points of shooting, they managed around 10 to 12 wounds over 3 rounds, that's 4 wounds on average per round for 280pts, all perfect profiles for the guns btw.
take a look at the lootaz the amount of requirements just for them to shoot well it crazy.
I don't think any ork player is asking custodes level shooting or tau. We just want the shots we lost and Strg we need for most our platforms be viable. Take the buggies as example, you never see them in the tables at current points, cut them to 50 and you probably see them, but not for the DPS, they will take the role of frontline fodder like gretching to move block... that's how bad they are, their as much worth as a unit of gretchin, so they need to be absurdly cheap.
personally I’d drop the 5+++ from the waaagh rule and add a dakka section as part of the army rule.
Something like units being led by a leader unit add +X attacks to rapid fire weapons in rapid fire range, and different leaders provide a different dakka bonus. So a pain boy could be dakka1 while a mek is dakka2 and a warboss dakka3, and ghaz would be dakka4.
So shoots boyz w/ pain boss would get 6 attacks in RF range.
I don't see how you're getting 6 shots from a 2 attack weapon with Rapid Fire 1 and a +1 boost to number of shots.
I also don't think firing four shots per member of a 20 man blob is a good idea-not when it kills a grand total of two MEQ, one Gravis, or 1.5 wounds to a TEQ.
It'd certainly be a damage boost, but the sheer amount of dice to roll would be annoying.
I had big shoots profile in my head lol.
I will amend the previous post
As for rolling a lot of dice being annoying, if you find that annoying maybe orks and other horde armies aren’t your jam, and you should find a faction that fits you a bit better
Is 3 attacks for choppa boyz too many dice to roll?
But 8x4 shots is 32, big shoota is another 6, NOB w/ kombiweapon would be 3 more, for 41 shots, averaging 13 hits.
With a warboss it’s 8x6 for 48 plus 8 for a big shoota, plus 5 for kombi weapon, plus the warboss’ 5, you’re looking at 66 shots averaging 21 hits.
But 8x4 shots is 32, big shoota is another 6, NOB w/ kombiweapon would be 3 more, for 41 shots, averaging 13 hits.
With a warboss it’s 8x6 for 48 plus 8 for a big shoota, plus 5 for kombi weapon, plus the warboss’ 5, you’re looking at 66 shots averaging 21 hits.
Giving our shooting some actual bite.
Do you really want to roll over a hundred dice for killing maybe two MEQ?
It's not the buff bit I don't support-it's the sheer amount of dice you'd have to roll to achieve it.
Better to give an accuracy buff while within half range or something, than just upping number of shots.
But 8x4 shots is 32, big shoota is another 6, NOB w/ kombiweapon would be 3 more, for 41 shots, averaging 13 hits.
With a warboss it’s 8x6 for 48 plus 8 for a big shoota, plus 5 for kombi weapon, plus the warboss’ 5, you’re looking at 66 shots averaging 21 hits.
Giving our shooting some actual bite.
Do you really want to roll over a hundred dice for killing maybe two MEQ?
It's not the buff bit I don't support-it's the sheer amount of dice you'd have to roll to achieve it.
Better to give an accuracy buff while within half range or something, than just upping number of shots.
Also, not sure you want 5 shot Deffguns.
It’s horde army, I’m fine rolling a gak ton of dice for a horde army.
Rolling a gak ton of dice for marines is silly and stupid.
I'm not very familiar with the snagga range in game, but I feel like I'm missing something with the painboss. Is there any point to bringing one now that they changed the squad mechanics of squighog boyz?
Looking at the "Sawbonez" rule, it seems like the only use cases are Squigosaurs running solo, or the edges case of a character surviving a precision attack or a squad wipe.
Is running Mozrog or a Boss solo still viable?
Are the boost to FNP and the D3 returned models worth it anyway?
DakkaHammer wrote: I'm not very familiar with the snagga range in game, but I feel like I'm missing something with the painboss. Is there any point to bringing one now that they changed the squad mechanics of squighog boyz?
Looking at the "Sawbonez" rule, it seems like the only use cases are Squigosaurs running solo, or the edges case of a character surviving a precision attack or a squad wipe.
Is running Mozrog or a Boss solo still viable?
Are the boost to FNP and the D3 returned models worth it anyway?
Your gut instinct is correct, the Painboss currently is kinda pointless at the moment for our army. He's only able to lead Snagga Boyz who already have a 6+ FNP built in so it's not as efficient compared to regular boyz with a Painboy and the Beastboss on foot just gives much more relevant utility when it comes to both offense for the unit with them being able to hit on 2's but providing devastating wound output to the unit. Even for the grot orderly unit, bringing back D3 models once a game is pretty meh and won't be relevant in most cases since they tend to either live to krump things or get wiped out in one go so you won't likely be able to use it much.
Frankly, they need to revisit his datasheet altogether and give either some sort of "Dok Juice" ability to beef up Beast Snagga Boyz in some way that is different than the Beastboss (i.e. Lethal Hits or something) but at the cost of potentially inflicting mortal wounds upon the unit. OR they need to allow him to just flat out bring back D3 models per command phase or something alongside the 5+ FNP he provides.
I think running a solo Squigosaur boss is not ideal since he's become significantly less tanky now that they've lost the 4+ FNP and both him and Mozrog both have rules you miss out on if they aren't leading a unit, even if it's a min squad of 3, I think it's generally better they're in a unit than not now.
Interesting thoughts there. What do you think about running 10 beastnaggas with beasboss in a trukk, with an extra beasboss riding along? I'd find the extra dev wounds really helpful going into bigger stuff like knights. Makes it a 265pt unit but that could be a good trade to kill a land raider for example.
PaddyMick wrote: Interesting thoughts there. What do you think about running 10 beastnaggas with beasboss in a trukk, with an extra beasboss riding along? I'd find the extra dev wounds really helpful going into bigger stuff like knights. Makes it a 265pt unit but that could be a good trade to kill a land raider for example.
It's certainly an option, a Beastboss alone definitely has the punch to tip a combat against a vehicle in your favour. However, is probably be more inclined to have more bodies on the ground. Also, generally you're not taking Snaggas without taking a Beastboss to come with them, so you're eating into your cap of 3 Beastbosses.
Its also 300+ points once you include the trukk. At that point I think I'd rather have Nobz and a Warboss in a trukk, or double down and take 20 Snaggas in a BW with a Beastboss.
So it's certainly an option with some potential, but I overall think there's better choices. Ultimately, try it out and let us know how you get on
when the squigsaur boss was a thing, the painboss had play. Healing 3 from a tanking 9w model was nice, still he was expensive... currently? I rather bring another beastboss with snaggas.. actually pivoting into them for expendable killy models. But hey, if you make him work do tell! It's just 185pts for 16w with fnp 6 if i recall? add a truck and can use to pop tranports before nobs get involved. they also benefit from 3 detach's
Jidmah wrote: Well, for one they are a completely different weapon, and on top of that they do 3 damage instead of 2 which makes them better in many situations.
never implied they were the same weapon.
It just doesn’t make sense for a large(ish) walker to have a lower S klaw than a nob leading a mob of boyz.
A nob is not a puny space marine with a powerfist and a kan is not a dread. We are talking about a bunch of insane gretchin confined into a light walkers made from second rate scrap that wasn't good enough to build something better.
Kanz aren't "large" by any measure, they are the ork equivalent of imperial sentinels and aeldari war walkers.
What Jidmah said, Killa Kanz really are more on the lowest size scale of walkers and ever since they've started differentiating weapons to be more bespoke, they've generally had a lower strength scale compared to what Power Klaws normally had. If anything, they've improved in some measures since it used to be that they hit on 5's instead of 4's back in 8th edition.
@Forceride @Grimskul
Fair enough, hopefully GW revisits the painboss down the line, maybe when they get around to fixing all the "use a stratagem again" rules they broke in other armies
If I ever get around to trying the snagga detachment maybe I'll throw one into a block of 20 to walk up the midboard and distract from smaller beastboss delivery units. Seems like a reasonable place for the "skrag every stash" enhancement too.
I've been using the Snagga detachment for a bit and generally I'm a fan. It's definitely not the strongest detachment in the book though.
I think that the footslogging block of 20 is the only place the Painboss has any kind of niche, regardless of detachment. And even then I think I prefer grots for my on foot objective grabbers. It's hard to compete with how little real estate a unit of grots takes up both on the board and in the list.
Pointless acknowledging that win he cheated almost the entire tournament with battle wagon transport rules, firing deck, character toughness and he had prior issues of cheating rolls while on camera. Head judge wanted to red card him and got overruled. So it's best to ignore that win like GW should have done.
Regarding the pain boss I think the only way to fix him at his current point cost and rules is to male him lone operative and make his snaggaboy buff into an aura. It would make him useful.
Forceride wrote: wait you mean the war horde list? Damn that's so unorky.. the cheating part. sad noises.
wasn't aware, thx for pointing out! Still enjoyed the gretchin list more.
The Gretchin list is awesome..
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LunarSol wrote: You could give Beast Snaggas the same 2 characters at 20 rule and he'd be.... well bad, but not useless.
I like the lone operative idea and aura… it gives big hunt detachment a different playstyle. More MSU instead of horde like greentide.
Personally I’d like to see detachments fixed like this.
Revert point hike on meganobs… keep the 5+++ nerf..
Bullyboys go back to being the elite pressure list.
Change the killakan special ability “shooty power trip” into add hazardous and +1 to attack characteristics of ranged weapons equipped by models in unit. Makes the ability less random and like grot tanks previously would fit better into dreadmob detachment rules.. killakans are basically not taken right now and dreadmob is really a loota spam list right now.
Add lone op to painboss and make his special ability into a beastsnagga boy only aura.. allows the list to be more of an msu style pressure list. Still has issues with the detachment rule being 1 target specific… this detachment could be fixed with a 2cp strat that allows a second target to detachment rules for the turn.
Add back reroll 1 to armor saves for units of 10+ models in greentide. This makes greentide more of a horde list that doesn’t just rely on spamming boys.. actually makes 10x kommandos, 10x stormboys and 1x unit of meganobs w warboss relic or 10x nobs/flashgitz better for the detachment.
Kult of speed needs much more work on individual buggy datasheets to fix it enough. The point reductions they will likely give them won’t fix it and create entirely new issues such as board congestion.
Yeah, if the Painboss changed to restoring Beast Snagga boy models or restoring wounds to a Beast Snagga character, it would be a usable unit. It still probably wouldn't be good, but you could make an argument for it in certain list types. It's currently completely pointless.
I think the detachments are mostly fine, and it's more that they don't interact well with one or two datasheets in their current state.
Kult of Speed needs all of the Speed Freaks datasheets to be redone though, and for the detachment to do something more than a minor move and shoot. The current state of the Buggies, Jets and Bikes is painful to look at.
Afrodactyl wrote: Yeah, if the Painboss changed to restoring Beast Snagga boy models or restoring wounds to a Beast Snagga character, it would be a usable unit. It still probably wouldn't be good, but you could make an argument for it in certain list types. It's currently completely pointless.
First time I read his rule I thought I'd find out that Kill rigs had the character keyword so he'd be a mek for those... but turns out they're vehicles so meks are the meks for rigs. I'd be happy extending his ability to rigs... or just keeping it super niche and hitting him with another GW patented points drop.
This may just be indicative of people abandoning the faction, and the remaining few players struggling to keep their heads above water. Do we have the usage stats as well? Orks are normally quite common in tournaments, regardless of win rates.
No matter what - one fact is absolutely obvious - the orks now struggle because I don 't play because I 'm building the storage and workshop since winter. The moment I come back everything becames speedy and krumpy again
It feels a bit frustrating to play against high save armies because we severely lack AP, but I'm still winning those games easily due to building up massive VP leads early.
Forceride wrote: I do agree, but, like every fly on a soup. There is also issues with the faction as a whole.
Our tools aren't obvious and the faction is suffering from several issues.
You can still win, sure, but it feels an uphill battle.
Honestly hoping they don't hold back in the next balance pass.
From rebalancing buggies to making shooting outside detach a bit more viable.
I could live with latest nerfs if they flesh out datasheet synergy and make the army functional outside of detach
Funny enough a bit like they sorted custodes..
This is just my bias opinion.. but considering we are in the back of the pack from top, there are good chances.
Yeah, I always find it funny that in the meta reports, you want to be slightly underperforming so you don't get the heat from the community and GW's tendency to overdo it with nerf bats. I do really hope they revisit buggies since it's a shame that such good models are saddled with such poor rules.If they could also price the Stompa reasonably, that would be a plus but I don't think I've ever seen GW give it a proper price cut in any of the chapter approved changes.
The whole Speed Freaks section of the codex would only need minor tweaks to be viable, whether it be through damage output or adjusting their special rules.
At the moment they're just kind of expensive speed bumps and maybe objective grabbers.
The day the Stompa is points costed appropriately is the day that I pack in playing 40k, as clearly it's the beginning of the End Times
Afrodactyl wrote: The whole Speed Freaks section of the codex would only need minor tweaks to be viable, whether it be through damage output or adjusting their special rules.
At the moment they're just kind of expensive speed bumps and maybe objective grabbers.
The day the Stompa is points costed appropriately is the day that I pack in playing 40k, as clearly it's the beginning of the End Times
I would hope damage output, primarily with shooting, because our dakka options barring a few edge cases is sorely lacking, and having mobile firepower via buggies would be nice to have, primarily with Speed Freeks who have the issue of being able to get around for objectives, but they're not tough like Meganobz in Bully Boyz, and they don't have the killiness of units like in War Horde.
And yeah, I'm a Dred Mob guy at heart, I can always dream of the heights of the Kustom Stompa back in 7th ed haha.
Afrodactyl wrote: The whole Speed Freaks section of the codex would only need minor tweaks to be viable, whether it be through damage output or adjusting their special rules.
At the moment they're just kind of expensive speed bumps and maybe objective grabbers.
The day the Stompa is points costed appropriately is the day that I pack in playing 40k, as clearly it's the beginning of the End Times
Properly cost the Stompa? Shhesh I would have to consider eating my boots if that happen.. you don't set a low bar for GW, no sir...
Long time no reports from Competitive Innovations huh? Well…
Despite the terrible win rate cruising around 39% last week, we still can score. Not great, but we can. Which is a quite interesting niche. Ver-y orky imho. So lets have a look at the selection of the lists that scored during last couple of weeks:
Smite Club Open 2024 – 40K World Championships Qualifier - Gareth Hunt – Orks (Dread Mob) – 3rd Place
Dread Mob without single dread or kan. 3x SAG, 7xMek Gunz, 30x Flashgitz, 30x Lootas, some stormboyz and 100x Grots. This is very 8th ed vibe! Who said we have no shooting options in this codex? Jidmah likes it
La Voz de Horus Open - 6th – Ivan Andres – Orks (War Horde)
Typical Warhord mechanized ork brigade. This time with almost all in doubles - 2 x Killrig, 2x Trukk, 2x small units of Flashgitz, Nobz, BSboyz, Komandos,…. Wide range of infantry + a lot of chars.
Warhammer 40,000 Throne of Skulls - Wayne Jimmison – Orks (Bully Boyz) – 4th Place
Dread mob without a dreads? Fine, so let ' s have a look on Bully Boyz with Gorkanaut, Kans, Koptas and Warbikers. And of course a Ghazzy + MANz+ few Nobz and 1 Wagon and Trukk to ride.
Spoiler:
Goffs (1750 points)
Orks
Strike Force (1750 points)
Bully Boyz
Warbikers (70 points)
• 2x Warbiker
• 2x Close combat weapon
2x Twin dakkagun
• 1x Boss Nob on Warbike
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Power klaw
1x Twin dakkagun
The Saffron Slam IX - 2nd – David Jackson – Orks (Dread Mob)
One Gorkanaut not enough? Well let' s have a two of them! And 2 oldschool Meks, Zogrod with 60 Grots, 30 Lootas and 20 Kommandos. Seems like someone makes max out of pregame move and forward deploy?
While it's been kinda meh looking at our overall performance as a faction lately, it's good to see that there's still a dedicated few.
I love that last Dread Mob list. Just deploying half the army in the midboard and daring the opponent to come into range of the rest. Proper kunnin' list.
In other news I'm still trying to make Da Big Hunt work, which it kind of does if you go all in on Snagga units. It becomes quite technical at times, and movement and target priority becomes even more important than usual. It's working well, but the board gets clogged fast between all of the hogs, the Squigosaurs, the trukks and a Hunta Rig. It has really solid board control and pressure but I'm finding myself occasionally wanting for damage against units that Prey doesn't apply to.
The list in its current form is in spoilers below, but I'm considering making some changes. Possibly dropping a unit of hogs in favour of a Gorkanaut for some big punch that isn't dependent on the Prey mechanic (as soon as I figure out a way of squiggifying one), giving Glory Hog to one Squigosaurs for extra early pressure, and moving Proper Killy onto the now solo second Squigosaur to act as something of a distraction carnifex/missile.
Please let me know what you think, and any ideas you may have when it comes to the potential Gorkanaut conversion
Spoiler:
++ Army Roster (Xenos - Orks) [2,000pts] ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size: 2. Strike Force (2000 Point limit)
Detachment: Da Big Hunt
Show/Hide Options: Legends are visible, Unaligned Forces are visible, Unaligned Fortifications are visible
I am not sold on flashgitz and mek guns, i might give it a try to them and the gorka followed with ghaz. I just got the models printed and painted proper goff
I have a tournament coming but i am still undecided what list to bring.
The recent kill team new edition release has new Ork art that seems to coincide with the rumours that we're getting a new "heavily armoured Ork unit" for Kill Team that might be the replacement for Tankbustas. Possible they're revising them into something that is more of a "sapper" type unit rather than just boyz with rokkit launchas. It'll be interesting to see if its a completely new unit or a different take on the classic tankbusta unit.
Grimskul wrote: The recent kill team new edition release has new Ork art that seems to coincide with the rumours that we're getting a new "heavily armoured Ork unit" for Kill Team that might be the replacement for Tankbustas. Possible they're revising them into something that is more of a "sapper" type unit rather than just boyz with rokkit launchas. It'll be interesting to see if its a completely new unit or a different take on the classic tankbusta unit.
Char2: 1x Mek (45 pts)
1 with Kustom mega-slugga, Killsaw
Char3: 1x Warboss (100 pts)
1 with Kombi-weapon, Twin slugga, Attack squig, Power klaw
Enhancement: Fasta Than Yooz (+35 pts)
OTHER DATASHEETS
5x Flash Gitz (80 pts)
• 1x Kaptin
1 with Choppa, Snazzgun
• 4x Flash Gitz
4 with Choppa, Snazzgun
• Ammo Runt
5x Flash Gitz (80 pts)
• 1x Kaptin
1 with Choppa, Snazzgun
• 4x Flash Gitz
4 with Choppa, Snazzgun
• Ammo Runt
11x Gretchin (40 pts)
• 10x Gretchin
10 with Close combat weapon, Grot blasta
• 1x Runtherd
1 with Grot-smacka, Slugga
11x Gretchin (40 pts)
• 10x Gretchin
10 with Close combat weapon, Grot blasta
• 1x Runtherd
1 with Grot-smacka, Slugga
10x Kommandos (135 pts)
• 1x Boss Nob
1 with Slugga, Power klaw
• 9x Kommandos
1 with Breacha ram
1 with Burna, Close combat weapon
1 with Close combat weapon, Rokkit launcha
6 with Choppa, Slugga
• Bomb Squig, Distraction Grot
10x Nobz (210 pts)
• 1x Boss Nob
1 with Power klaw, Slugga
• 9x Nob
9 with Power klaw, Slugga
• 2x Ammo Runt
6x Warbikers (140 pts)
• 1x Boss Nob on Warbike
1 with Close combat weapon, Twin dakkagun, Power klaw
• 5x Warbiker
5 with Choppa, Close combat weapon, Twin dakkagun
3x Warbikers (70 pts)
• 1x Boss Nob on Warbike
1 with Close combat weapon, Twin dakkagun, Power klaw
• 2x Warbiker
2 with Choppa, Close combat weapon, Twin dakkagun
Brian Seipp was 2nd on London GT, which is not unsignificant…
He played War Horde with Ghazzy, two BW and two Trukks and 2 big blobs of Boyz
What is interesting:
- he use New Big Meks for big Boyz for smoother move I guess?
- 2 units of burnaboys - some anti meta trick I miss because I' m focused on my new ork furniture instead of the current meta?
- more or less no “supporting MSU” like warbikers or stormboyz. Just two units of grots. The rest is pure WAAAAGGGHH!!!!
Spoiler:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Player Name: Brian Seipp
Team Name: Ignite
Factions Used: Orks
Army Points: 1990
Army Enhancements: Follow Me Ladz (Char3: Big Mek), Kunnin’ But Brutal (Char5: Warboss)
Detachment: Warhorde
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Theme Song: : Ghazghkull Thraka (235 pts) – Warlord
Char2: Beastboss (80 pts)
Char3: Big Mek (105 pts) – Drilla, Traktor Blasta, Enhancement: Follow Me Ladz
Char4: Big Mek (80 pts) – Drilla, Traktor Blasta
Oh heck yes, ladz, new Tankbustas for us are finally confirmed! Presumably the rules will be free ala what happened for Tempestus Aquilons for Kill Team.
Rough summary of things you can deduct from the collective previews and things said about the kit:
- 6 Orks, 2 Bomb squigs - All 5 non-nob models are dual builds, one option being a rokkit and the other being a melee weapon - Melee weapons are two of the new flat headed hammers, one classic rokkit hammer, dual piston fists and a one-handed hammer, similar to the one the nob has. - They are referred to be "heavily armored" multiple times. Personally, I'm hoping for a 3+ save, just like the new big mek, but 4+ is more realistic. - some people are guessing that the nob might be a character due to it having a different base size than the other models. Not too sure on that. - Melee loadout and ranged loadout might have separate datasheets for 40k, because the social media account is referring to them by different names "Breaka Boyz" and "Tankbustas". On the other hand, these names might also just be the killteam operative names which are in no way connected to 40k datasheets.
So the good news is that you can you can a trukk loaded with 10 rokkits and 2 rokkit pistols, but the unit is likely to not getting much cheaper. Whether the melee unit is worth taking heavily depends on the weapon profiles.
In any case, feel free to check r/orks for news and rumors. Unlike in the past, information is hitting reddit extremely fast these days.
I think they might have a place depending on the data sheet. I am not holding my breath..
They have a spot though, some detachments lack proper anti tank support.
Funny, this might be what some list's need to make them work.
Btw.. i had my game with gorkanaugh, my opponent struggled handling it. It was still alive by turn 3.
Lootas had a very respectable output specially the anti cover one.
Mek guns were ok, i took bubblechukas, while hilarious i can see some of the issues with a bad roll.
I am on the fence for flashgitz,they sound scary on paper but in practice their not that scary even with 30shots, i used 2 groups of 10 inside 2 trucks. This gave them a useful shell and a lot of mobility but they had no opportunity for play.
We ended the game at that point. My opponent conceded, he had only killed 6 grotz until that turn, this was GK.
My opponent advised me to bring 2 gorkas and cut the mek guns. Honestly still digesting the game. I think his idea has merit.
Jidmah wrote: Rough summary of things you can deduct from the collective previews and things said about the kit:
- 6 Orks, 2 Bomb squigs
- All 5 non-nob models are dual builds, one option being a rokkit and the other being a melee weapon
- Melee weapons are two of the new flat headed hammers, one classic rokkit hammer, dual piston fists and a one-handed hammer, similar to the one the nob has.
- They are referred to be "heavily armored" multiple times. Personally, I'm hoping for a 3+ save, just like the new big mek, but 4+ is more realistic.
- some people are guessing that the nob might be a character due to it having a different base size than the other models. Not too sure on that.
- Melee loadout and ranged loadout might have separate datasheets for 40k, because the social media account is referring to them by different names "Breaka Boyz" and "Tankbustas". On the other hand, these names might also just be the killteam operative names which are in no way connected to 40k datasheets.
So the good news is that you can you can a trukk loaded with 10 rokkits and 2 rokkit pistols, but the unit is likely to not getting much cheaper. Whether the melee unit is worth taking heavily depends on the weapon profiles.
In any case, feel free to check r/orks for news and rumors. Unlike in the past, information is hitting reddit extremely fast these days.
I think the fact that they're dual builds is the main saving grace of the unit not being a mish-mash of conflicting weapons profiles that it is right now, so we'll see if the melee version is superior or equivalent to the ranged one, but ideally they keep their current rule at the very least of getting +1 to wound against vehicles. I do appreciate that they also call out that Tankbustas do actually wear the tank plates/remains of the stuff they take out, so they get more than the basic boy 5+ save. I'm not holding out against getting a 3+ save but it would be nice to have some heavy infantry that aren't mega nobz. My main concern is that they'll lack AP, I hope we at least get a decent baseline of AP-2 for our weapons if not higher for the tankhammers.
And whether they are competitive or not we will find out. But they sure are fun as hell
's who demand that you not use all the rules 
