I think GW is suffering from jet lag , a while back is true we were asking form more shooting stuff but damn lol!

 Forceride wrote:
I think GW is suffering from jet lag , a while back is true we were asking form more shooting stuff but damn lol!

Better late than never!

I feel like GW can't do math if it isn't a Space Marine. Lootas and tankbustas with SH2 is +100% firepower, that's ludicrous.

If it was SH2 on shoota boys and SH1 on everything else that would seem more reasonable.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
The detachment looks very strong just based on the detachment rule. It does however mean that Flash Gitz and Tankbustas become even more potent at shooting and will likely lead to them getting a hefty points increase based on the sins of a single detachment.

The rule should have been "gain sustained hits 1, if it already has sustained hits, increase it by 1". Still good, but not obnoxious.

It’s almost certainly going down to sustained 1.. but that’s only partly why this detachment is bonkers.. each of those Strats are amazing in thier own right..
Waaaghh on every single turn for a key unit is amazing
Reroll wounds to enemy unit on objective.. amazing
Ignore cover as needed… yes please
+1 ap which is one of the biggest reasons tankbustas are needed… amazing
Free shooting during oppenents turn… honestly wow

And then there is a bunch of semi useful enhancements the biggest being +1 to hit for your unit.

All of those together just make tankbustas and freebooters great but make lootas brutal now as well. You will also see a unit of Gretchin w/zodgrod or meganobs to take advantage of the Waagh all the time strat..

I’m not sure what this detachment was designed for… every other detachment was trying to thematically fit a clan this one feels like a weird swing at badmoons style list but really doesn’t fit that theme either. I would have rather GW taken a crack at another type of speedfreak list by making this one biker focused. Get rid of infantry keyword and replace with speedfreak.. and make warbikers battleline. Ya deffkoptas would be good and a buggy or 2 might be decent shooting. But buggies profiles are so bad this list would be significantly weaker.

My only concern is if orks are absurdly broken this will make units prices go dramatically up that shouldn’t when this is purely just an overtuned detachment issue.

Is this detachment an attempt by GW to bring the Orks win-rates up in tournaments?

I can't see a reason why most players wouldn't switch over to this list.

Besides the obvious nerf on the horizon.

unknown.

More likely to sell models.

... but when the nerf hammer lands, it will leave a crater, GW is always heavy handed with us.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Is this detachment an attempt by GW to bring the Orks win-rates up in tournaments?

I can't see a reason why most players wouldn't switch over to this list.

Besides the obvious nerf on the horizon.

I think it’s just not knowing what they were really doing.. ork win rates were fine.. in fact taktical got hit to hard for a detachment that was only 54% winrate.. the price increase to tankbustas, bigmek w shokk, Mek kaptain and addition of 1 use and line of sight to all bomb squigs would have been fine. The taktical detachment rule nerf of 1 order limit with mortals for every leadership test on an order was a bit overkill and the increase to 3+ for just tankbusta bomb squigs is confusing when it makes bombs squigs different on multiple units. I’m not saying taktical is a bad detachment but it’s not in the top 4. (Dakka, warhorde, dreadmob, bullyboys) next 4 (taktical, greentide, big hunt, kult of speed).

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Is this detachment an attempt by GW to bring the Orks win-rates up in tournaments?

I can't see a reason why most players wouldn't switch over to this list.

Besides the obvious nerf on the horizon.

You don't really lose anything by switching though. You can literally pick any dread mob or taktiks list, tweak it slightly and switch it over to dakka and to make it better. When the hammer lands, just go back to your original list.

You can't even argue it's to sell models because it only buffs shoota boyz to be on the same level as beast snaggas, but doesn't make it a superior choice.


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gungo wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Is this detachment an attempt by GW to bring the Orks win-rates up in tournaments?

I can't see a reason why most players wouldn't switch over to this list.

Besides the obvious nerf on the horizon.

I think it’s just not knowing what they were really doing.. ork win rates were fine.. in fact taktical got hit to hard for a detachment that was only 54% winrate.. the price increase to tankbustas, bigmek w shokk, Mek kaptain and addition of 1 use and line of sight to all bomb squigs would have been fine. The taktical detachment rule nerf of 1 order limit with mortals for every leadership test on an order was a bit overkill and the increase to 3+ for just tankbusta bomb squigs is confusing when it makes bombs squigs different on multiple units. I’m not saying taktical is a bad detachment but it’s not in the top 4. (Dakka, warhorde, dreadmob, bullyboys) next 4 (taktical, greentide, big hunt, kult of speed).

Eh, I'd argue that we have three tier of detachments right now:
1) Dakka, warhorde and bullyboyz are just raw power, no mukkin' about.
2) Dreadmob, taktikal, green tide and big hunt are for oddboyz which like thematic armies while still having a real shot at winning games.
3) Kult of Speed is for when going fast is more important than killing or shooting or winning...

The nerf bumped taktikal from 1 to 2.

Have to agree with Jidma, gleaming GW at this point is a bit silly. lets wait and see.

I don't have enough Ork experience to understand why everyone is so sad every time someone says Kult of Speed ...

It sounds like it would be fun.




Edit: Spellcheck doesn't like the word "Ork."

 Quixote wrote:
I don't have enough Ork experience to understand why everyone is so sad every time someone says Kult of Speed ...

It sounds like it would be fun.




Edit: Spellcheck doesn't like the word "Ork."

Behind the model issues being large enough bases that it creates a serious movement and logjam issue.. Nonse of the buggies do any reliable damage or are durable enough not to. The detachment ability does little to fix those issues. None of the Strats or enhancements are great but there are a few decent one however buggies are now units of 1 meaning any type of buffs is limited.. speedfreak planes are also bad by design. And finally its biggest grievance is the speedfreak lineup is horrid in mission play and has issues scoring primary which is usually ork codex strength. Buggies really just need dataslate tuneups and the detachment needed a stronger ability.. advance and shoot is a useful partial ability for the detachment though.

How about giving all speed freeks sustained hits 2?

 Quixote wrote:
I don't have enough Ork experience to understand why everyone is so sad every time someone says Kult of Speed ...

It sounds like it would be fun.
Edit: Spellcheck doesn't like the word "Ork."

It could be and used to be fun. But not now. Because the set o rules is a multilevel tragedy. Filtre my posts there, I wrote at least 2 or 3 long posts about it…

The detachment would be good if the datasheets were powerful on their own.

As it is, you have a bunch of fragile units which struggle to kill anything, and the detachment gives you a ton of movement shenanigans, but solves none of the problems.

 Tomsug wrote:

 Quixote wrote:
I don't have enough Ork experience to understand why everyone is so sad every time someone says Kult of Speed ...

It sounds like it would be fun.
Edit: Spellcheck doesn't like the word "Ork."

It could be and used to be fun. But not now. Because the set o rules is a multilevel tragedy. Filtre my posts there, I wrote at least 2 or 3 long posts about it…

Man, you sounded really depressed in some of those posts. Are you OK now?

I read the posts, I see your point. Good models, not so good datasets for them.

I understand that flyers in general are bad in 10th edition, but why haven't they adjusted the buggies or other vehicles to make them better, or cheaper to use?

 Jidmah wrote:
How about giving all speed freeks sustained hits 2?

A single change on more Dakka by removing ork infantry from the detachment rules and replacing it with speedfreak keyword would solve like 90% of the problems with that detachment. Although it would still likely need to be sustained 1 because even deffkoptas would be brutal at sustained 2. Then increase the waaagh strat to 2cp and I think more Dakka would be fine since lootas, tankbustas and flashgitz wouldn’t be good in this detachment.

I'd kind of like Speed Freeks to get progressive buffs the faster they move. Really get into the foot-to-the-floor mindset.

Maybe have shoot after advancing/falling back as the base form, then add sustained 1 on melee and shooting (or improving by one of you already have it) if moving up to half movement characteristic, then worsening the opponents BS by 1 if you move at full movement.

Have a clause for it being a distance from where you started to avoid gaining the buffs by wiggling back and forth.

Changing the more Dakka detachment works, but I feel like a Speed Freek player should be encouraged to be really taking advantage of mobility and speed.

Oh, and change the Snazzwagon to be "when an enemy unit targets a friendly model within 6" of this model", rather than the gak it currently is.

I like that idea, i would refine it by: if you moved give it sustained 1 (add +1 if already has it), if advance add stealth and maybe 5++ invul?(speed freaks only in addition to the assault one)
I would love to be able to use the measuring idea, but i for see it getting complicated and prone to gaming it. So your declaration on what the unit does, is probably a more solid trigger, if it is too powerful, force to choose between one or the other.

The idea is your moving so fast your hard to hit and damage, the sustained is adrenaline kicking.

CP abilities, one to run over infantry, use a cp after charge the infantry does desperate breakout with -1. The idea is your moving so fast you don't care about the slow flies that get caught under your wheels.

Another CP ability is like a race, you select a target during command phase, any unit that moves closer to it gain's lethals. Idea is your warboss roars a challenge and the finishing line is the target, obviously a proper ork won't let their opponents one up it so the lethals represents the competition driving the boyz harder.

But i don't see GW doing it.

I'm a bit late to the party due to how busy work has been for me, but this is a very welcome surprise detachment! Definitely feels a bit overturned offensively speaking, since all the strats look great and there's no duds to really speak of. With the amount of bellyaching going over this online by non-Ork players, I can't imagine this won't be nerfed pretty swiftly by GW. I am glad that our walkers are generally getting more love though through strats and baseline abilities like this.

I do feel like GW is deliberately sidestepping the underperformance of buggies given how it's rock bottom for them for so long. I think like most of you have said already, the key problem are the datasheets themselves so it's harder to address directly via the detachment rules unless there's a complete overhaul at some level. I think also when it comes to buggies, the fact that character support for them is non-existent doesn't help, since the Deffkilla Wartrike can't join them or provide an aura that does any meaningful buff for them. Meks aren't efficient and can't keep up, and there's also basically no enhancements that actually do anything for buggies either.

On a side note, I've been seeing a lot of people bring breaka boyz for a lot of lists in lieu of Nobz with the Warboss, are they that much better because of their built in rerolls to charge and the flat 3 damage from their smasha hammers? Haven't tried them out myself personally so I wasn't sure what people's experience with them are so far.


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 Afrodactyl wrote:
I'd kind of like Speed Freeks to get progressive buffs the faster they move. Really get into the foot-to-the-floor mindset.

Maybe have shoot after advancing/falling back as the base form, then add sustained 1 on melee and shooting (or improving by one of you already have it) if moving up to half movement characteristic, then worsening the opponents BS by 1 if you move at full movement.

Have a clause for it being a distance from where you started to avoid gaining the buffs by wiggling back and forth.

Changing the more Dakka detachment works, but I feel like a Speed Freek player should be encouraged to be really taking advantage of mobility and speed.

Oh, and change the Snazzwagon to be "when an enemy unit targets a friendly model within 6" of this model", rather than the gak it currently is.

This would be nice, it would align close to what the old Speed Freeks focused detachment from 9th was like, where you had to advance to get the 5+ invuln save they would get from being in the detachment (while still being able to shoot while advancing).

I’m liking the look of the new detachment, but I have one complaint about our shooting.

We have relatively few options for truly high S shooting.
I think our shooting especially our big guns, should be high A, and S, low AP, and damage on par with comparable weapons in other factions.

For example lootas A2 S8 AP-1 D2 on deffguns shows they’re clearly ork versions of autocannons, but worse in literally every way.

A3 S9 AP0 D3 would make more sense to me.

Snazzguns are generally what I think ork guns should be. They’re similar to HBs but I’d be ok with dropping the AP.

The brutish approach to warfare orks have just makes sense for a lot of shots at fairly high S imho.
Rokkits could be A d3 S10 AP-1 D3 <blast> and I don’t think that would break anything.

Well GW is famous or infamous for not being good in math.. i think there are examples where they disregard data over feels making a weapon busted or underpowered.

Now this could be a conversation on itself given asymetric balance that warhammer takes.

It's even worst for us due to how swinging we tend to be so on a good bunch of rolls we can hit really hard, on a bad, we wiff just as bad..

Had games where lootas on 6 made something like half the hp of a landraider and in ideal circumstances i did nothing, this can be easily explained with math but GW only sees what it wants..

That's why our faction when it get's busted it's really hard to balance since your unsure if it is just a statistical good result or a OP weapon.

Going back to the new datachment it focus in these good moments, when the loota scores it over shoots it's potential damage and becomes oppressive... that's just a small one, pick tankbustas on 4 to hit with 6 explode with re-rolls to 1 and you have a crazy weapon that shoots as hard has some of the weapons of previous edition, but here's the fly in the ointment.. it can also underperform like it had none of the buffs.

I am not advocating for the detach stay the same way but that's my line of thinking when GW does any ork balance. Also explains why knee jerk nerfs everytime!

 Forceride wrote:
Well GW is famous or infamous for not being good in math.. i think there are examples where they disregard data over feels making a weapon busted or underpowered.

Now this could be a conversation on itself given asymetric balance that warhammer takes.

It's even worst for us due to how swinging we tend to be so on a good bunch of rolls we can hit really hard, on a bad, we wiff just as bad..

Had games where lootas on 6 made something like half the hp of a landraider and in ideal circumstances i did nothing, this can be easily explained with math but GW only sees what it wants..

That's why our faction when it get's busted it's really hard to balance since your unsure if it is just a statistical good result or a OP weapon.

Going back to the new datachment it focus in these good moments, when the loota scores it over shoots it's potential damage and becomes oppressive... that's just a small one, pick tankbustas on 4 to hit with 6 explode with re-rolls to 1 and you have a crazy weapon that shoots as hard has some of the weapons of previous edition, but here's the fly in the ointment.. it can also underperform like it had none of the buffs.

I am not advocating for the detach stay the same way but that's my line of thinking when GW does any ork balance. Also explains why knee jerk nerfs everytime!

I mean a S9 weapon doesn’t really do that well into tanks…which I believe is their primary target based on the name ‘tank bustas’

That’s kinda my issue. Unless you’re going with super heavy walkers, you have limited options for high S guns.
It would make sense for ork guns to be above average S for a class of weapon, since brute force is their whole thing.

Like does anyone think a rokkit launcha at Ad3 S11 AP-1 Dd3+3 <blast> would be too OP? It’s no more effective against infantry of any sort than it is now except maybe characters, maybe even less effective due to less AP, but it’s more likely to wound tanks, and when those wounds stick they are actually doing damage.

I am not disagreeing with you, but think about it.

Deffkoptas have twinlinked, but you hardly see them, and twinlinked in 5s is really good, the issue is 5 to hit and low volume fire

But no other one rookit has it. When they manage to hit they have high chances of causing damage but the low volume and lack of tools makes them inconsistent.

Tankbustas real deal against the vehicles is the +1 to wound +1hit with the SAG

The rockets, are most of the time a bonus,
the SAG has the AP and the Damage but is missing the S and Hit, i don't care if most rockets die has long as the sag get's the buff

Here's another, the smash gun on the meks is better then the s12 one, why? Ap -3, if you wound on 3 but your opponent is saving on 2s your begging for bad rolls, on the other hand every 5 roll on the smash can easily translate to damage.

It's funny but sometimes we get the profiles we deserve, take the bubble chuka, perfect profile for each gun, but you have to roll.

So why all these tangents? To show you that GW goes by gut instinct rather then what is balanced.. End result? Highly inconsistent and a lot of feels bad and feels good around. But this is what i signed has an ork, for that surprise.

I disagree. SAG helps with targets that have high saves and no invulnerables, but more often than not rokkits take out a target before the SAG even gets to roll.

The main reason to run SAGs is because it becomes super efficient when running with tankbustas and the re-rolls. I would not be surprised if they errata tank hunters to only work on tankbusta models.

+1 to hit and +1 to wound combined with the AP from the pulsa rokkit is what makes tank bustas reliably damage hard targets. I'm not sure why deff koptas keep getting brought up. Even if you ignore all the issues of running a dozen hard to hide vehicles with no leader option or detachment support, they are 45 points more for the same amount of rokkit shots, without any of the benefits.


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johnpjones1775 wrote:
I’m liking the look of the new detachment, but I have one complaint about our shooting.

We have relatively few options for truly high S shooting.
I think our shooting especially our big guns, should be high A, and S, low AP, and damage on par with comparable weapons in other factions.

For example lootas A2 S8 AP-1 D2 on deffguns shows they’re clearly ork versions of autocannons, but worse in literally every way.

A3 S9 AP0 D3 would make more sense to me.

Snazzguns are generally what I think ork guns should be. They’re similar to HBs but I’d be ok with dropping the AP.

The brutish approach to warfare orks have just makes sense for a lot of shots at fairly high S imho.
Rokkits could be A d3 S10 AP-1 D3 <blast> and I don’t think that would break anything.

That approach might have worked in the past, but definitely doesn't work in modern editions. To blast through a 2+ save or 3+ in cover you need to have an AP, the number of shots to reliably get through armor without an AP is just too high.

If you go by the autocannon logic, losing a point of AP would require twice as many shots to get through a marine in cover. Compensating for worse BS is another 50% extra shots, so a loota would have to be A6 S9 AP0 DMG3 to be the equivalent of a heavy weapon team, so a whole unit is 48 shots. On average this will be mediocre, but hot dice can easily decide games. It gets worse if you add leader, stratagems or detachments with bonuses to shooting. Eventually the unit will be just as swingy as 8th edition's SAG when it did nothing in some games, and dealt 100+ damage to a unit in others. Not a good place to be.

These days a weapon with no AP either is a weapon designed to be swingy within limits like relics or psychic powers, or the weapon is mostly useless against anything other than light infantry, like shootas, lasguns or assault cannons.

Had same discussion with a friend of mine, he is a data scientist math is his thing.

The conclusion we got is that while pulsa rocket is nice to have versus high saves the loss of 1 extra d3 is kinda big the window of opportunity is pretty small as well. Over the course of a game if well played it will even out the odds. So the upgrade while good is mostly a side grade.

We were taking in account the game we were playing and he is Eldar.

As for the SAG, it consistently causes issues to my opponents, the rookits tend to whiff a lot.. on the other hand there is the usual i am f when they roll for the SAG.. I do admit it's rare for me to face sv3 vehicles but in general in that department, SAG is the main dealer, unless i catch a vehicle in the open there the -2 starts to rack up. That has been my experience so far.

My opponents tend to hide pretty well from shooting, so they gain cover consistently, the other thing is i rarely dismount t1 since i rather do some pot shots from trucks and wait on waghhh and bait opponent closer.

Played a game last weekend with the More Dakka detachment and I was shooting better than my DA opponent.

Big Mek with Shokk Attack gun in a squad of lootas was deleting whole squads of marines. Even on overwatch!

 Mr Nobody wrote:
Played a game last weekend with the More Dakka detachment and I was shooting better than my DA opponent.

Big Mek with Shokk Attack gun in a squad of lootas was deleting whole squads of marines. Even on overwatch!

What's that on the horizon? It's a giant GW Nerf Hammer! And it's coming this way!

You can't do better than the Space Marines, that's not proper.

 Jidmah wrote:
I disagree. SAG helps with targets that have high saves and no invulnerables, but more often than not rokkits take out a target before the SAG even gets to roll.

The main reason to run SAGs is because it becomes super efficient when running with tankbustas and the re-rolls. I would not be surprised if they errata tank hunters to only work on tankbusta models.

+1 to hit and +1 to wound combined with the AP from the pulsa rokkit is what makes tank bustas reliably damage hard targets. I'm not sure why deff koptas keep getting brought up. Even if you ignore all the issues of running a dozen hard to hide vehicles with no leader option or detachment support, they are 45 points more for the same amount of rokkit shots, without any of the benefits.


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johnpjones1775 wrote:
I’m liking the look of the new detachment, but I have one complaint about our shooting.

We have relatively few options for truly high S shooting.
I think our shooting especially our big guns, should be high A, and S, low AP, and damage on par with comparable weapons in other factions.

For example lootas A2 S8 AP-1 D2 on deffguns shows they’re clearly ork versions of autocannons, but worse in literally every way.

A3 S9 AP0 D3 would make more sense to me.

Snazzguns are generally what I think ork guns should be. They’re similar to HBs but I’d be ok with dropping the AP.

The brutish approach to warfare orks have just makes sense for a lot of shots at fairly high S imho.
Rokkits could be A d3 S10 AP-1 D3 <blast> and I don’t think that would break anything.

That approach might have worked in the past, but definitely doesn't work in modern editions. To blast through a 2+ save or 3+ in cover you need to have an AP, the number of shots to reliably get through armor without an AP is just too high.

If you go by the autocannon logic, losing a point of AP would require twice as many shots to get through a marine in cover. Compensating for worse BS is another 50% extra shots, so a loota would have to be A6 S9 AP0 DMG3 to be the equivalent of a heavy weapon team, so a whole unit is 48 shots. On average this will be mediocre, but hot dice can easily decide games. It gets worse if you add leader, stratagems or detachments with bonuses to shooting. Eventually the unit will be just as swingy as 8th edition's SAG when it did nothing in some games, and dealt 100+ damage to a unit in others. Not a good place to be.

These days a weapon with no AP either is a weapon designed to be swingy within limits like relics or psychic powers, or the weapon is mostly useless against anything other than light infantry, like shootas, lasguns or assault cannons.

Then increase the damage per shot so when it gets through it hits harder.
Besides I’d rather have a better chance of causing a saving throw than less chance to wound but more likely for them to fail.

Which makes it swingier.
And also punishes Daemons or anything else tough but without good armor.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Which makes it swingier.
And also punishes Daemons or anything else tough but without good armor.

they have a decent armor save. 4++ on many/most of them is pretty good, and any AP makes an attack better against units with trash armor like orks and guard.

johnpjones1775 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Which makes it swingier.
And also punishes Daemons or anything else tough but without good armor.

they have a decent armor save. 4++ on many/most of them is pretty good, and any AP makes an attack better against units with trash armor like orks and guard.

If the damage is scaled so that a 2+ armor save can be killed at a reasonable rate with only one out of every six wounds going through, that would be far too effective against something with only a 4++.

 Forceride wrote:
Had same discussion with a friend of mine, he is a data scientist math is his thing.

The conclusion we got is that while pulsa rocket is nice to have versus high saves the loss of 1 extra d3 is kinda big the window of opportunity is pretty small as well. Over the course of a game if well played it will even out the odds. So the upgrade while good is mostly a side grade.

We were taking in account the game we were playing and he is Eldar.

As for the SAG, it consistently causes issues to my opponents, the rookits tend to whiff a lot.. on the other hand there is the usual i am f when they roll for the SAG.. I do admit it's rare for me to face sv3 vehicles but in general in that department, SAG is the main dealer, unless i catch a vehicle in the open there the -2 starts to rack up. That has been my experience so far.

My opponents tend to hide pretty well from shooting, so they gain cover consistently, the other thing is i rarely dismount t1 since i rather do some pot shots from trucks and wait on waghhh and bait opponent closer.

While I don’t agree every tankbusta unit needs pulsa rokkit…Tankbustas don’t live long enough to make it back during a game and firing them from a trukk prevents a few buffs from targeting them. The pulsa rokkit is for 1 use getting through 2+/3+ save units. Once you unload that tankbusta unit near that regal dorn tank commander that’s when it’s time to use pulsa rokkits, bomb squigs etc. Becuase that unit will not survive the return fire.

I can give it another go next game.

Still on the fence though.

johnpjones1775 wrote:
Then increase the damage per shot so when it gets through it hits harder.
Besides I’d rather have a better chance of causing a saving throw than less chance to wound but more likely for them to fail.

I'm not talking about preferences. The math simply doesn't support your approach. Statistics don't end with averages, despite what the average wargamer thinks.

Number of shots, hit chances, wound chances and armor penetration chance are the four parameters that modify the shape of the bell curve of "damage done", while damage just stretches it. If you put too many extremes in those, you end up with extreme results which result in bad game experiences. Orks already have one extreme of low BS, if you put two more extremes in there (number of shots and AP), the unit becomes unreliable and spikey.

When orks rain down dozens of rokkits on a target, they are not supposed to be unreliable and spikey, quite the opposite. Even the most well armored foes are supposed to worry about all those rokkits hitting them, while less armored enemies are supposed to be obliterated. The current rokkit profile captures this feeling better than ever before.


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gungo wrote:

 Forceride wrote:
Had same discussion with a friend of mine, he is a data scientist math is his thing.

The conclusion we got is that while pulsa rocket is nice to have versus high saves the loss of 1 extra d3 is kinda big the window of opportunity is pretty small as well. Over the course of a game if well played it will even out the odds. So the upgrade while good is mostly a side grade.
<snip>

While I don’t agree every tankbusta unit needs pulsa rokkit…Tankbustas don’t live long enough to make it back during a game and firing them from a trukk prevents a few buffs from targeting them. The pulsa rokkit is for 1 use getting through 2+/3+ save units. Once you unload that tankbusta unit near that regal dorn tank commander that’s when it’s time to use pulsa rokkits, bomb squigs etc. Becuase that unit will not survive the return fire.

Same here. In my current lists, tank bustas are my solution to well armored targets and they direly need the pulsa for that. My opponents will go as far as to sacrifice units to take out their trukk, so it needs to stay where it's safe. Once they disembark, they will absolutely be dead the turn afterwards.

I agree that the extra rokkit is great when riding battlewagons or the gargantuan squig, so the option is definitely not a no-brainer. Especially when you have other solutions to high armor, like breaka boyz or a morkanaut.

I wonder why you find it useless against eldar tanks though. Going to wounding them on 2+ is a huge increase in damage.

Range, 36 or more means you have to bait them closer even on a good map.

If the vehicle has 24' like my friends vindis it's a different story

While i do agree for the pulsa for sv2 the fact i gain a d3 with blast helps a lot clearing chaff/elites and stuff that might be a threat.

This gives a lot of breath and while tanks are very common, unsupported they do not feel a threat and i have many other stuff i can move around clog or even be a threat with out tankbustas

I generally run a pair inside trucks with extra bodies like lootas or flamers, if it blows up i direct the damage to those, if not i use them as extra oc and to clog charges to trucks in general i barely ever lose 1 group entirely even with my opponent pushing up aggressively.

The most aggressive ones have genestealers on my side of deploy t1, so i am used to pressure lists.

I do admit i never faced knights and IG, since those are the biggest offenders when it comes to having high T. Friends went to tourney and those were the biggest issues, they came 5th on it. I still think i would be fine though.

Hope it sheds some light in my perspective. Also i agree with Mordian glory that the meta is shifting into elites ever since Eldar dropped. But that's my opinion lol.

Oh i also forgot that i play a lot against grey knights, it's an entire different game since you have to plan so much ahead with their 3 unit tely after your movement phase.

Maybe enough dakka? Meta Monday this week looks like this. Orks 4th most played faction. More Dakka 67% win rate. And it is a 1 week people just give it a try!

Emergency nerfhammer comes very soon I hope.

Edit: some math about in on Goonhammer too. It seems More Dakka got into douchbag area. I don 't like it. https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-mo-dakka-mo-problems/

I am sry but need's to be said:

Need more DAKKA!

 Tomsug wrote:
Maybe enough dakka? Meta Monday this week looks like this. Orks 4th most played faction. More Dakka 67% win rate. And it is a 1 week people just give it a try!

Emergency nerfhammer comes very soon I hope.

Edit: some math about in on Goonhammer too. It seems More Dakka got into douchbag area. I don 't like it. https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-mo-dakka-mo-problems/

I hope they just delete the detachment because orks were in a good place before more Dakka detachment and I fully expect GW to do thier typical overdone triple nerf to destroy orks with massive point hikes, kill the detachment with multiple nerfs and then nerf the datasheets for good measure… when in reality the only issue was more Dakka was way over pushed.

Hopefully they just do a ctrl+F on the detachment and replace "infantry and walker models" to "Speed Freekz and Battle wagons"

Well, Gungo is almost right…

So emergency dataslate this weekend or start of next week? Any bets?

No point in feeling down... we are going to get hit again and probably going to be rammed through GW style.

Let's grab popcorn and just bask in the comparison with 9th where freebotas and buggies went insane. GW really can't balance orks.. ahhh down the hatch we gooo...

 Tomsug wrote:
Well, Gungo is almost right…

Pathetic.

With how salty the competitive scene tends to get whenever Orks go above their station in terms of wins, I expect a very brutal nerf that unfortunately will likely include the units themselves in the crossfire unfortunately. It does seem premature to already ban them that quickly though after 2 tournies. I'm only aware of Votann on their first release in 9th getting similar treatment.

I really do not love reactionary community bullying like that. I 100% believe GW needs to patch this ASAP, but throwing a tantrum like that is not a good way to go about it.

Outright banning a whole detachment just feels bad. And really, as we've seen, the problems usually aren't with the detachment itself, but rather the stupid wombo-combos and the juvenile need to win at all costs.

The detachment is stupid good though. Orks were already performing well, and this detachment is an all-upside buff to our best units with no drawbacks whatsoever.

It clearly was never tested in combination with the new tankbusta datasheet, and that completely blew up in GW's face.

An emergency nerf is direly needed, especially since a nerf would have absolutely no negative impact on casual play.

Is it common for tourneys to ban Detachments that are doing well in games?

Nope, it's rare... we only see things like these when GW screws up really badly.

There have been situations in the past but GW stepped in and nerfed the offenders to oblivion.

The best we can hope is GW does not hit anything else but the detach.

Exactly. This is a rare situation. MD detachement is really seriously broken.

And btw. GW can balance somehow. The game as a whole exept this nonsensce is balanced very well. And even the infamous buggies (an planes) was after some iterations ok. Last versions of Speedmob were absolutely ok.

To scratch the whole detach is simple, fast and effective solution. It brings nothing significantly new to the game. And the rest works fine.

 Quixote wrote:
Is it common for tourneys to ban Detachments that are doing well in games?

I think it happend like four times in recent history? And each time it was well deserved.

And this time we aren't even talking about banning an army like what happened to Eldar or LoV. We are talking about banning a detachment which is just running almost exactly the same units as taktiks or dread mob would run, with a better detachment rule and better stratagems.

 Jidmah wrote:
It clearly was never tested in combination with the new tankbusta datasheet, and that completely blew up in GW's face.

I don't think it was tested at all.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
It clearly was never tested in combination with the new tankbusta datasheet, and that completely blew up in GW's face.

I don't think it was tested at all.

Personally, I think GW forgot the tendency of tournament players to just spam the ever-loving crap out of things. Sprinkle in some non-Mek characters and big units of Boyz to actually fight in melee for objectives, and the whole thing actually becomes reasonable. In fact, this might actually be the best argument against getting rid of the FOC...

I wish countess, if it were just that we would attribute it to a simple oversight.

But like mentioned before by both me and Jidmah and others, orks are a mathy army. Crazy right? I know!

I myself needed to use some apps to crunch numbers in order to get an idea of their performance.

In our case like mentioned we are consistently on the end of the bell curve and rarely in the top meaning we are inconsistency with spike tendency. But this spike is what makes it so hard to balance.

Had they made the average calculation of what meant a Sustained 2 for the army, then amazing waagg strat and it's insanity... this might have been avoided. Human suck at perceiving probability and risk btw.

what i saw?... a normal loota doing 24 to 22 hits not counting spana for 100pts? in ideal conditions... that's insane for the game...

There was this argument that GW balances by what it feels is right, throw's a few dice and is math averse... I don't appreciate conspiracies but it's hard to justify this one...

 BorderCountess wrote:
Personally, I think GW forgot the tendency of tournament players to just spam the ever-loving crap out of things. Sprinkle in some non-Mek characters and big units of Boyz to actually fight in melee for objectives, and the whole thing actually becomes reasonable. In fact, this might actually be the best argument against getting rid of the FOC...

You could at least bother to look up some of the winning lists before judging people

Most of the dozen or so top 8 placements last weekend do exactly what you are suggesting.

The FOC has never solved the spam problem, and would fail to solve this one as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
It clearly was never tested in combination with the new tankbusta datasheet, and that completely blew up in GW's face.

I don't think it was tested at all.

Without tank bustas and the 1CP Waaagh! stratagem, I'd argue the detachment would be fairly reasonable. For most of our units, doubling their shooting would be fairly unnoticable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Forceride wrote:
I wish countess, if it were just that we would attribute it to a simple oversight.

I bet Tankbustas vs Dakka detachment was just corporate communication at work
The Zodgrod combo was an oversight
Pricing an extra Waaagh! at one CP was stupid, period.

Human suck at perceiving probability and risk btw.

You can say that again... the worst part is the Dunning-Kruger effect making people assume that they understand statistics.

Tankbustas aren’t the best unit in this detachment. I’d argue lootas are better…
I mean tankbustas are even more broken when combined with the rapid fire 1 enhancement in ideal range with big Mek w shokk. But lootas are just absurdly broken all the time.

I’m hoping more tournaments ban more Dakka as I truly believe the data will show none of the ork datasheets are broken when more Dakka isn’t included. As I don’t think ork win rates or placings justify any major changes to datasheets with more Dakka removed.

The big strength of Tankbustas in the list is the ability to decide who you attach the SAG to depending on matchup.

On non UK tables, the Dakka is okey, powerful but okey as long as you remove the ability from grot units to go in to a wagghh state. It is a very shoty detachment, but it is also very dice roll dependant , has practicaly no re-rolls for shoting and the core units (bustas/lootaz) have paper thin resiliance the way w40k functions right now. Especialy comparing to what the units cost.

The only problem with the detachment is the super grots+scout+beefy character+1CP waagh. combo. That ends games turn 1, especialy for armies that don't spam infiltrators . Now if GW, wasn't GW they would fix Zog and the grots. But what they will probably do is carpet bomb the whole unit section with point hikes and direct rules nerfs to the detachment. This will not just stomp the detachment in to oblivion, but will make it extremly unfun to use the nerfed units outside of the Dakka detachment. It is nothing new for w40k, heck orks alone were hit by such a change 2 or was it 3 times this edition?


Never again will I post from(christ the thing just correct it to form) a phone. my english is bad enough, but th stuff auto correct does it, makes it hard for me to read it.

^
Brings up an excellent point.

Do you think GW will:
A) Scrap the detachment altogether.
B) Fix the key issues with the Detachment.
C)Hike the points up unilaterally across-the-board.
D)Ignore the issue until the next dataslate update period.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
^
Brings up an excellent point.

Do you think GW will:
A) Scrap the detachment altogether.
B) Fix the key issues with the Detachment.
C)Hike the points up unilaterally across-the-board.
D)Ignore the issue until the next dataslate update period.

First they'll ignore it, then go, "Oops, yeah, we should fix that," and nerf both the detachment itself (expect the Waaagh! stratagem to go to 2CP) and increase the points of Lootas and Tankbustas.

Honestly, if More Dakka was changed to sustained 1, I think it would be just fine. Basically a shooty version of the War Horde detachment.

 Forceride wrote:
Had they made the average calculation of what meant a Sustained 2 for the army, then amazing waagg strat and it's insanity... this might have been avoided. Human suck at perceiving probability and risk btw.

what i saw?... a normal loota doing 24 to 22 hits not counting spana for 100pts? in ideal conditions... that's insane for the game...

There was this argument that GW balances by what it feels is right, throw's a few dice and is math averse... I don't appreciate conspiracies but it's hard to justify this one...

Unfortunately I wasn't kidding with my Space Marines comment. Giving SH2 to BS 5+ is equivalent to giving SH4 to BS 3+. But does anyone on the GW design team realize that? I doubt it.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
Honestly, if More Dakka was changed to sustained 1, I think it would be just fine. Basically a shooty version of the War Horde detachment.

I'd let the poor shoota boys keep SH2 since they need something, but otherwise yeah. SH1 would have been fine, and then make the Waagh strat CP2.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
Honestly, if More Dakka was changed to sustained 1, I think it would be just fine. Basically a shooty version of the War Horde detachment.

But the sustained 2 isn't the problem. Those aren't eldar or SoB, they have volume of fire, but without garented 6s, their shoting phases have HUGE variation. This is the same situation we had with the wolf jail. Locking out/winning games turn 1, especialy when going first. And what follows is generaly nerfs, spread over 2 quarters, that hit the "too powerful" build and wreck the ability to use the units that made it up in any other configuration. If it wasn't for Zog and the gobos, the army wouldn't be more powerful then Ynari or GSC. What I agree with is the fact that GW is, with high probability, nerf the living hell out of what makes this detachment good. But it is hardly the first rodeo of this kind, that ork players have to go through this edition.

Until they nerf this list into oblivion, I expect to see it at every game where it isn't banned.

Is there any way to counter this detachment as it stands right now?

Either be so big and tough you shrug off all those rokkits, or so fast you can get in their face right away before you get blasted off the board.

 BorderCountess wrote:
Either be so big and tough you shrug off all those rokkits, or so fast you can get in their face right away before you get blasted off the board.

Are there any epic heroes that can be removed quickly to lessen the pain?

I'm just not sure how to counter this detachment.

Maybe deep striking the entire Guard army would allow me to close range Dakka the Orks into submission on my terms.

 Quixote wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:
Either be so big and tough you shrug off all those rokkits, or so fast you can get in their face right away before you get blasted off the board.

Are there any epic heroes that can be removed quickly to lessen the pain?

I'm just not sure how to counter this detachment.

Maybe deep striking the entire Guard army would allow me to close range Dakka the Orks into submission on my terms.

I mean outside of Zodgrod Wortsnagga, most Moar Dakka lists don't use any Epic Heroes, they just have Big Meks with SAG's to buff up tankbustas and either Warbosses/Beastbosses to buff up the melee contingent in the army.

Thrakka is fairly common among those lists actually, but trying to remove him is kind of a trap. The main strength of his squad is being a distraction carnifex, you are better off killing shooty units.

Close ranging orks also doesn't work too well - you just get hit by more weapons and the detachment has good buffs for fighting in close range.

I guess using indirect fire to take out lootas will reduce the damage you are taking, otherwise you best chance is opening up trukks and taking out tank bustas ASAP is the best you can do. If you go second, overwatching the supa-runts to get out of movement jail is probably not a terrible idea.

It's simply stupidly good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a different topic, on the weekend I had both my first game with the nerfed tactical brigade and the first game against new EC.

I played like a grot drunk on fungus beer, so I'll spare you the details. I basically traded my flash gits with kaptin against a rhino, Lucius refused to fail saves, I rapidly ingressed my bikes in a position where they couldn't actually shoot anything and deep struck my stormboyz onto an objective that wasn't actually available for the mission action. That said, I don't think tactical brigade lost that much. Then again, my orks also lost the ability to inflict 3 MW on themselves every time I order something. I still think it's superior to dread mob, even if it's just because of the broader choice of units available.

EC are a really cool army to face. It basically feels like playing against pink orks. They have low ranges, hit hard and are squishy. Despite all my fails I had a blast. Things to watch out for:
- They have sustained and lethal hits everywhere. Especially infantry dies a lot faster than it would against regular marines, and so do trukks. It's easy to misjudge them.
- Their lords are pretty much warboss level, treat them as such. They can easily go through a unit of nob profiles or beast snaggas if they chose their to use their bonus attacks. The fight first enhancement was very difficult to handle for me.
- Lucius is a monster. He might look puny, but he took out Mozrog and an entire squad of squigs in a single round of combat. Shoot him dead when you can.
- Noise marines have great gun and similar to boyz in combat. 18" range might not sound like much, but they can always advance and shoot. The ranged lord is mostly annoying to kill, not that great IMO. They operate very similar to tankbustas.
- There is a LOT of precision spread across the army, but none of it has high range. Keep your warbosses and meks safe.
- In general, all power armored marines are quite easy to kill, but are fast and good in combat. Make sure they are dead before they can hit you.
- Just like us, they struggle with high toughness. Lucious is probably the only reliable way of taking out something with T11+.
- I did not face Fulgrim or Flawless Blades

From Meta Monday on Reddit, Orks only had a 51% win rate over the weekend, with MD sitting at 53% win rate as a detachment.

It would seem that people are learning how to face the detachment and it might not be as potent as first thought. I would still probably suggest nerfing the Waaagh strat and the Grot jail though.

Bumping Waaagh! to 2 CP automatically nerfs the grot jail.

If you go first, you simply cannot use the Waaagh! because lack the CP to do so. It's a lot less effective when you go second - assuming there are enough gretchin left to jail anyone.

I'd still prevent tankbustas from benefiting from sustained hits 2. It's just way too efficient on them.

 Jidmah wrote:
Bumping Waaagh! to 2 CP automatically nerfs the grot jail.

If you go first, you simply cannot use the Waaagh! because lack the CP to do so. It's a lot less effective when you go second - assuming there are enough gretchin left to jail anyone.

I'd still prevent tankbustas from benefiting from sustained hits 2. It's just way too efficient on them.

This is true. However you could use your regular Waaagh turn 1 to circumvent the CP requirement. This would hugely impact the rest of the army, but it would work both in enabling the Grot jail, and limiting the abuse from the detachment.

Maybe just take the Sus2 away from Blast weapons, or Sus1 on Blast weapons if you still want TBs to have some benefit from the detachment.

That would hurt random things like stompa, naut or thump guns. Tank bustas are the problem, not blast weapons.

Then again, you could redesign the detachment and have it affect all rapid fire weapons. At least that would help bikes and some of the buggies.

I witnessed a butt kicking this weekend at the hands of the More Dakka! Orks.

Watched an Forgepact Imperial Knight army with a bunch of Skitarii disintegrate, as the Orks had some ability to negate cover...

And the Orks didn't seem to lose any close combat skills in this new Detachment.

The Orks targeted the Skitarii, then the Armigers and ignored the two large Knights as they couldn't contest enough objectives.

I really thought that the high toughness of the Armigers and Knights would be a deciding factor... but the Ork player just ignored the big guys until last and removed all the infantry and Armigers.

Now that I've witnessed it, I have no clue how to counter it with a deep strike Tempestus list, except to attempt surgical strikes to remove all the Flash Gitz and Tank Busters first.

Knights are a poor counter to Dakka. So far only thing keeping Dakka in check is fire and fade armies aka eldar. Tempestus bridgehead prenerf could have done well but that list has been overly nerfed.

Well short meta report based on last few CI and Reddit Meta Monday:

- game is balanced with no signifikant struggles.
- basicly becaus of wide range of bans on More Dakka and the fact that a lot of Warbosses has enough style to do not play it in full swing.
- the list is obviously the same, max TB FG and Lootas. The issue is, that some fast moving units can deal with it but a lot of armies (not lists, armies) seriously struggle to do anything. As was commented above with the knights.
- MD has 63% win rate and 39% X-0/X-1. So definitely not healthy. This can happen:

As more and more time goes on, the more I think that Sus1, and Sus2 during Waaagh, is the way forward with this detachment.

Make the Waaagh strat 2cp, then you have to decide whether you want Grot jail or big Dakka.

It's a non-decision though. No one will waste their big Waaagh! for grot jail, the unit will just be dropped.

 Jidmah wrote:
It's a non-decision though. No one will waste their big Waaagh! for grot jail, the unit will just be dropped.

Thus resolving the issue of the Grot jail without hiking points or hitting the datasheets, and meaning that we can focus on the rest of the detachment for any needed tweaks.

My point was that attaching the extra firepower to the Waaagh! is irrelevant to grot jail being dead as long as you properly cost the stratagem.

For any unit outside of tankbustas and maybe lootas, sustained hits 2 is not causing any problems at all. Therefore, any solution that affects anything but those two units is not a good one.

Please explain to me the effectiveness of the Grot Jail, and why the Dakka Detachment really makes it thrive.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Please explain to me the effectiveness of the Grot Jail, and why the Dakka Detachment really makes it thrive.

It's primarily the 1CP to make an Ork unit count as having the benefits of being in a WAAAAGH! turn strat, as it gives them the additional 6" movement boost to screen out byeond their initial 9" Scout move T1 and allow them to aggressively tie up a big chunk of your opponent's army with a large unit of 20 grots with Zogrod, which buys the rest of your units time to get in position and secure spots for primaries. It's basically our Orky equivalent of what marines do with their scouts and Eldar can do with their Striking Scorpions, just a lot more efficiently since we have the volume of bodies they can't bring, -1 to wound, and 5+ invuln that gives them the sweet spot of requiring a lot more investment than what they're worth to get rid of them and that first turn is crucial for setting up the rest of the units in the game.

Thanks!

Just trying to learn more about Orks.

One of my fever dreams was to build an Ork AirCav unit (aka Ork Commandos in Berets with Copters galore).

One of these days...

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Thanks!

Just trying to learn more about Orks.

One of my fever dreams was to build an Ork AirCav unit (aka Ork Commandos in Berets with Copters galore).

One of these days...

We did use to have the Chinork Warkopta from FW, alas that's been lost to the sands of time thanks to GW purges, so that would have actually been possible in the past if you wanted to put Kommandos in them for some reason.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Thanks!

Just trying to learn more about Orks.

One of my fever dreams was to build an Ork AirCav unit (aka Ork Commandos in Berets with Copters galore).

One of these days...

We did use to have the Chinork Warkopta from FW, alas that's been lost to the sands of time thanks to GW purges, so that would have actually been possible in the past if you wanted to put Kommandos in them for some reason.

We still have it. It's in Legends.
As for the model? OOP & probably expensive on the secondary market. But it's not very difficult to scratch build your own....

I've also seen a 3d printed version around which looks like a slightly more modern version of the original without losing the original style.

 Jidmah wrote:
My point was that attaching the extra firepower to the Waaagh! is irrelevant to grot jail being dead as long as you properly cost the stratagem.

For any unit outside of tankbustas and maybe lootas, sustained hits 2 is not causing any problems at all. Therefore, any solution that affects anything but those two units is not a good one.

EDIT
Previous comment now irrelevant as they've just updated the detachment.

All infantry and walkers gain assault, and then gain Sus1 during the Waaagh.

Get Stuck In is now 2cp and specifically excludes gretchin.

Ignore cover stratagem was also nerfed, affects just one unit now.

I guess the detachment failed its hazardous roll and takes three mortal wounds.

Not as bad as kult of speed, but worse than any other detachment with those changes.

https://www.goonhammer.com/more-dakka-nerfs-the-goonhammer-hot-take/?fbclid=IwY2xjawJjL0pleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHt7ykHIB7ugskmkdxuC-hD5APMd8uDHzK8OmmGxzM4N4hFSfOJGis_qUnLiK_aem_xHGH6xNptiHJ1s-JTMPOBg

 Jidmah wrote:


Not as bad as kult of speed, but worse than any other detachment with those changes.

Agreed. Classic GW move:
"We have three ideas as to how we can nerf this detachment, which one should we use"
"Yes"

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/mirza2hg/more-dakka-detachment-update/

It's not too bad....

More Dakka detachment update

Orks
1 min
09 Apr 25

It seems that there might be such a thing as “too much dakka” after all. The recently released More Dakka Detachment for the Orks has proven itself to be just that bit too shooty on the tabletop.


With that in mind, the Warhammer Design Studio has assessed the Orks’ recent performance at all levels of Matched Play, and have decided to make a few slight changes. This should make More Dakka more fun to play with and against for everyone.

The Detachment Rule has been changed to passively grant Assault, while Ork units now gain Sustained Hits 1 during the Waaagh!. The Get Stuck In, Ladz! Stratagem now excludes Gretchin units, as they ain’t the ladz, and Long, Uncontrolled Bursts will now only work for a unit that won’t lay off the trigger.

You can download the updated detachment below, or find it on the Warhammer 40,000 app. The rule change goes into effect immediately.

Still seems ok to me, Dredd mob seems more fun an and random this seems good for when you want a bit more predictability.

Andykp wrote:
Still seems ok to me, Dredd mob seems more fun an and random this seems good for when you want a bit more predictability.

Sus1 is fine, a dakka boost during the Waaagh is fine, only getting Sus1 only during the Waaagh is not fine.

MD was a bit much, but this has really taken the teeth out of the detachment to the point that it barely has a reason to exist at this point over Dredd Mob or Taktikal Brigade.

(I still think they should have just merged MD with KoS, for the record)

Yeah, this feels like the crappier infantry/walker version of Speed Freeks in terms of the baseline detachment rule. Should have at least kept the Sustained 1 hits for the normal detachment rule, maybe with Sus 2 during the WAAAGH! turn. Having Assault basically means almost nothing since you never footslogged tankbustas, you put them in transports, if they survive past their deployment you're probably already winning. Lootas have long enough range and want to stay still due to heavy so assault is superfluous for them. At most I can see the assault being more useful for Killa Kanz, but you'd go Dred Mob instead at that point.

This with the 2CP for the WAAAGH! strat and other restrictions makes it DoA now.

I was expecting this so I did get one game in before the nerfs, but disappointing to see GW overcorrect as usual.

The thing I didn’t like about more dakka was it made you feel you could only select certain units and all the lists I made felt quite dull, I’m not a competitive player at all and can understand they have maybe gone too far with this nerf but looking at it now I’m tempted to try it with other things I didn’t feel I could take in it before.

Being able to shoot, advance and charge on a turn with the waaargh seems good to me. Was thinking it is not really about dakka anymore. More and speed but of footsloggers and walkers.

Disappointed to see the community call for blood and GW to give them what they want. Didn't care for the detachment myself and wanted to see it get nerfed, but I don't care at for how it was handled.

Andykp wrote:
The thing I didn’t like about more dakka was it made you feel you could only select certain units and all the lists I made felt quite dull, I’m not a competitive player at all and can understand they have maybe gone too far with this nerf but looking at it now I’m tempted to try it with other things I didn’t feel I could take in it before.

Being able to shoot, advance and charge on a turn with the waaargh seems good to me. Was thinking it is not really about dakka anymore. More and speed but of footsloggers and walkers.

I mean the problem with the way its written now, it doesn't make you want to take anything else more than what you would before. In fact, some units that were never taken (e.g. Ork boyz with shootas) were made semi-viable with the shooting buff from Sus 2, since otherwise you'd almost always take boyz with choppas instead. Now with the change to assault only, I struggle to see what units would have greater variety of choice to take in this one in this detachment compared to the previous one. I mean feel free to share what your thoughts are because you would go for other detachments entirely for I feel pretty much everything else. You wouldn't bring squighog boyz for example in this list.

 LunarSol wrote:
Disappointed to see the community call for blood and GW to give them what they want. Didn't care for the detachment myself and wanted to see it get nerfed, but I don't care at for how it was handled.

Oh I think the plan was always to eventually nerf it.
It's the classic bait & switch.
Make some rules designed to [u]really[i] sell particular units, clear out stock, & then "Ta Da!"

Well GW is going to GW. RIP the ork detachment. They double nerfed the jail part, which was the real problem, but then took a hammer to everything else. Right now it is one of those "why does this exist" detachments.

What does bother me though was that people were allowed to play with it, when it was still fun.
Because I would be okey, if this happened to all armies that break the too good barrier. Yet somehow some armies are not allowed to be good, while others can be broken for months and the anwser to them being so oscilates between "get good" and "the meta will soon learn how to play against it".

Karol wrote:
Well GW is going to GW. RIP the ork detachment. They double nerfed the jail part, which was the real problem, but then took a hammer to everything else. Right now it is one of those "why does this exist" detachments.

What does bother me though was that people were allowed to play with it, when it was still fun.
Because I would be okey, if this happened to all armies that break the too good barrier. Yet somehow some armies are not allowed to be good, while others can be broken for months and the anwser to them being so oscilates between "get good" and "the meta will soon learn how to play against it".

There are definitely "haves" and "have-nots" when it comes to rules treatments in the 40k meta, usually marines and craftworld eldar tend to be ones that are given lighter touches than others.

ccs wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Disappointed to see the community call for blood and GW to give them what they want. Didn't care for the detachment myself and wanted to see it get nerfed, but I don't care at for how it was handled.

Oh I think the plan was always to eventually nerf it.
It's the classic bait & switch.
Make some rules designed to [u]really[i] sell particular units, clear out stock, & then "Ta Da!"

Possibly, though I suspect it simply wasn't well tested because it was added in with so much other stuff in this update.

Kinda brilliant timing. I just hosted a game with two friends last night! Necrons vs More Dakka. My Necron friend forfeited turn 2. This has been a fun morning.

This will sound cynical but I'm serious when I say it's good they only nerfed the detachment and not lootas, tankbustaz or Flash Gitz as some people feared they would. Orks are now in the place they were before more dakka and that's not a bad place to be.

The 2cp Waagh is warranted, the 1 unit ignore cover is fair…
The assault all weapons all game adds some maneuverability, the 1 sustained only during Waagh is a big hit and provides only minor boost during Waagh… (effectively +1 to hit Waagh only)

But this detachment is still good.. i mean it’s probably the third best detachment warhorde is again the best, taktical is still usable competitively, and I think more Dakka is here just above bullyboys…

More Dakka wins out over bullyboys not because of the detachment rule but because more Dakka still has great Strats and enhancements… second Waagh even if 2cp, reroll wounds, +1ap, ignore cover, shoot in opppents phase.. all are good.. even the walker Strat is good especially with assault on all weapons.. but we also have good enhancements such as +1 to hit and rapid fire 1… so this detachment still has play. And ghaz, lootas, tankbustas and to a degree flashgitz are still good in this detachment.

gungo wrote:
The 2cp Waagh is warranted, the 1 unit ignore cover is fair…
The assault all weapons all game adds some maneuverability, the 1 sustained only during Waagh is a big hit and provides only minor boost during Waagh… (effectively +1 to hit Waagh only)

But this detachment is still good.. i mean it’s probably the third best detachment warhorde is again the best, taktical is still usable competitively, and I think more Dakka is here just above bullyboys…

More Dakka wins out over bullyboys not because of the detachment rule but because more Dakka still has great Strats and enhancements… second Waagh even if 2cp, reroll wounds, +1ap, ignore cover, shoot in opppents phase.. all are good.. even the walker Strat is good especially with assault on all weapons.. but we also have good enhancements such as +1 to hit and rapid fire 1… so this detachment still has play. And ghaz, lootas, tankbustas and to a degree flashgitz are still good in this detachment.

3rd best I think is being generous, assault is only for infantry and walkers, of which tankbustas will not be able to use much, if ever given that they're best used in transports, likewise for Flash Gitz. Lootas don't want to move since they have the heavy keyword. The rest of our infantry are largely just packing pistols or short ranged weapons like burnas, which are also best left in transports. So the rule will come up only in fringe cases. The strats aren't bad (barring the 2CP waaagh strat) but the enhancements are meh without the sustained hits to back it up. It's just slightly above Kult of Speed, but definitely below Dred Mob, Green Tide, and Bully Boyz.

 LunarSol wrote:

ccs wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Disappointed to see the community call for blood and GW to give them what they want. Didn't care for the detachment myself and wanted to see it get nerfed, but I don't care at for how it was handled.

Oh I think the plan was always to eventually nerf it.
It's the classic bait & switch.
Make some rules designed to [u]really[i] sell particular units, clear out stock, & then "Ta Da!"

Possibly, though I suspect it simply wasn't well tested because it was added in with so much other stuff in this update.

Complete nonsense. The dakka detachment mostly ran the same units as dreadmob and tactical brigade do. Outside of some people's third unit of flash gits, no unit will be returned to the shelf.


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 Grimskul wrote:
3rd best I think is being generous, assault is only for infantry and walkers, of which tankbustas will not be able to use much, if ever given that they're best used in transports, likewise for Flash Gitz. Lootas don't want to move since they have the heavy keyword. The rest of our infantry are largely just packing pistols or short ranged weapons like burnas, which are also best left in transports. So the rule will come up only in fringe cases. The strats aren't bad (barring the 2CP waaagh strat) but the enhancements are meh without the sustained hits to back it up. It's just slightly above Kult of Speed, but definitely below Dred Mob, Green Tide, and Bully Boyz.

Fully agree, but you forgot Da Big Hunt. It's quite one-dimensional, but still just as powerful as dread mob or nerfed tactical brigade.

 Jidmah wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

ccs wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Disappointed to see the community call for blood and GW to give them what they want. Didn't care for the detachment myself and wanted to see it get nerfed, but I don't care at for how it was handled.

Oh I think the plan was always to eventually nerf it.
It's the classic bait & switch.
Make some rules designed to [u]really[i] sell particular units, clear out stock, & then "Ta Da!"

Possibly, though I suspect it simply wasn't well tested because it was added in with so much other stuff in this update.

Complete nonsense. The dakka detachment mostly ran the same units as dreadmob and tactical brigade do. Outside of some people's third unit of flash gits, no unit will be returned to the shelf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:
3rd best I think is being generous, assault is only for infantry and walkers, of which tankbustas will not be able to use much, if ever given that they're best used in transports, likewise for Flash Gitz. Lootas don't want to move since they have the heavy keyword. The rest of our infantry are largely just packing pistols or short ranged weapons like burnas, which are also best left in transports. So the rule will come up only in fringe cases. The strats aren't bad (barring the 2CP waaagh strat) but the enhancements are meh without the sustained hits to back it up. It's just slightly above Kult of Speed, but definitely below Dred Mob, Green Tide, and Bully Boyz.

Fully agree, but you forgot Da Big Hunt. It's quite one-dimensional, but still just as powerful as dread mob or nerfed tactical brigade.

Right, totally forgot about Da Big Hunt for some reason, yeah it's definitely below that as well. Shows you how much I run it compared to the others (hint: not a lot lol).

 Grimskul wrote:

Andykp wrote:
The thing I didn’t like about more dakka was it made you feel you could only select certain units and all the lists I made felt quite dull, I’m not a competitive player at all and can understand they have maybe gone too far with this nerf but looking at it now I’m tempted to try it with other things I didn’t feel I could take in it before.

Being able to shoot, advance and charge on a turn with the waaargh seems good to me. Was thinking it is not really about dakka anymore. More and speed but of footsloggers and walkers.

I mean the problem with the way its written now, it doesn't make you want to take anything else more than what you would before. In fact, some units that were never taken (e.g. Ork boyz with shootas) were made semi-viable with the shooting buff from Sus 2, since otherwise you'd almost always take boyz with choppas instead. Now with the change to assault only, I struggle to see what units would have greater variety of choice to take in this one in this detachment compared to the previous one. I mean feel free to share what your thoughts are because you would go for other detachments entirely for I feel pretty much everything else. You wouldn't bring squighog boyz for example in this list.

You’re probably right, reading the other comments seems I’m being too optimistic.

I was actually thinking of bringing squighog boyz but as I said, I’m not competitive or very good at the game so it’s probably not a good idea!

Andykp wrote:
You’re probably right, reading the other comments seems I’m being too optimistic.

I was actually thinking of bringing squighog boyz but as I said, I’m not competitive or very good at the game so it’s probably not a good idea!

Don't forget that the Moar Dakka benefits are still limited to infantry and walkers. If you are not optimizing your list, most detachments are really close in power. If you want to run some shooty units with squighogs and not worry too much about army composition, both wartribe and tactical brigade are good choices. If you are willing to build around a detachment, bully boyz would also be an option.

How to build for the different detachments is not that hard on casual levels:
Bully boyz => Multiple units of nobz and MANz, make sure every melee unit that matters has a WARBOSS model to lead it (beastbosses, wartrike, Thrakka are all warbosses)
Dread mob => Bring multiple big meks and attach them to powerful units, with more focus on shooting units than melee units. Add walkers, mek guns and gretchin for flavor.
Green tide => 100-120 boyz plus whatever other infantry you want.
Da Big Hunt => The majority of your army should be squighogs, beastyboyz and rigs.
Taktikal Brigade => Every important unit should be lead by a warboss or big mek, bring flash gits and a kaptin.
War Horde=> You bring a pile of orks that is none of the above. Should lean more towards fighting than shooting.

Nobz lead by a warboss, beastsnagga boyz lead by beastboss, flash gits, tank bustas, trukks, gretchin and breaka boyz are all great units that will do their job irrespective of whether a detachment benefits them or not. This also applies to some other, less efficient units. Therefore, you are fairly free to build your army with whatever theme you prefer without being limited to a small pool of units.

ive been playing my Tyranids mostly here in 10th edition, and ive been moving as of late so i never tried the more dakka detatchment. Thus i cant really say anything out of experience with it just my view of how i see this going down.


I think it was semi obvious that there needed to be a nerf to the more dakka detatchment. The waagh stratagem should be 2 cp but not exclude grots (because why exclude them when it cost 2 cp anyway? it was only ever strong on Zodgrod turn 1), but the current detatchment to me seems completely stupid.

The detatchment has been overnerfed, way over nerfed. Maybe its my limited ork knowledge as of 10th edition but why would i care at all about having assault on my infantry and walkers, always? (well maybe walkers since they dont jump out of transports) This detatchment should give sustained hits 1 always and assault on the waaagh where you want to advance and shoot and maybe charge also.

Orks, as i see it, is NOT inherently a shooting army. They can BECOME a shooting army when you play a detatchment that gives rules that support shooting, like tactical brigade can and dread mob. i dont think lootas are great without any buffs (they are just cheap support units, which makes them decent over all, but not a unit you expect to kill a ton with) and only really tankbustas and flash gitz work as a shooting unit outside shooting detatchments. And flash gitz already dont get any buffs from the sustained hits 1 as they have it already.

I would only rarely need assault outside of the waagh anyway so it feels like you are playing without a detatchment rule untill you waaagh and have assault and sustained hits 1.

Assault on a faction that dont shoot particularly well is just sad. it works for others because they can actually shoot reliably. Sustained should be always, and the assault only on waaagh. Its only on the waaagh i would normally want to advance my shooting units anyway. If a unit of lootas sit in a trukk how often do you need assault to hit what you want? You already move 9 inches due to 3" disembarkation and 6" move.

This detatchment just feels bad, and is over nerfed because GW panicked when people threw tantrums and banned the detatchment. I knew they would over nerf it, and they did. I had hopes they wouldnt but they squashed that hope

My 2 cents.

While i agree that the nerf was heavy handed, i still think we came out ok, since nothing but the detach was affected.

I hope, this is a big one, GW learned it's lesson, armies like ours, where math is important, i hope they hired or moved some one to check the math.. even if just superficially. I prefer the rule of cool, but some semblance of sanity in balance is also great. Not expecting this but it would be great.

For some, while i understand some people are annoyed about the detach nerfs, i wish to remind some, that detach's like speedfreaks and buggies spread sheets need a look at, and we already have 2 decent options for shooting. So i am not bothered that this one got nuked. If anything i would like to see changes to under performers and bad data sheets.

Have a great weekend and amazing games!

The issue why most people were complaining is because people wanted to run their bad moons/dakkadakka armies from the past which heavily relied on shoota boyz.
Sustain 2 and those melee buffs are exactly what shoota boyz need to compete with the much better melee options we have.

Those armies are now once again left without a detachment to support their play style.

yeah, they should have delt with the jail or write their rules in such a way that a "jail" situations doesn't happen over over again. Was to be expected. At least they didn't mess up the points, but that probabaly is going to happen in 2-3 months anyway. Funny thing, after the first week in places where Dakka wasn't banned, it did drop in win rates, a lot. People just had to retool their armies, just the way they did in Wolf Jail times etc. Same old, same old.

Also this maybe a hot take, but considering we are at the end of an edition, balancing a year before 11th isn't really what GW should be looking for. Especialy for armies that maybe should have some fun, with stuff people like and want to play with. You know give ad mecha robots a crazy list , give something to the non ultramarine marines etc
And they can do it, problem is they release those armies, but then they nerf them after a few weeks. It is great for sells for a few years, but at some point people will notice that GW does that and either they will print the updates, or just wait a month.
Meh, it is a game writen for two groups of people, that are small and/or don't exist in some places. It is so wierd. You are either expected to play W40k "The Historical narrative bonanza where we don't care about rules, stats, models, even packs etc" or you have a rule set writen/tested by a closed group of testers in US/UK, which kind of a sucks if you happen to play on neither US/UK tables and with US/UK rules packs.

One thing I have thought about more dakka is as others have said, it’s not about dakka anymore, it’s really about faster infantry and walkers, with. Touch more dakka for one turn.

Jidmah, you are right I do try to take models i like more than optimise the lists but I’m playing more games now against more competitive players and feel a bit like I’m hamstringing myself a bit. Really liked taking more shoota boyz in more dakka and I’ve made them work ok in tactical brigade too. The lists I made that were more optimum more dakka were a bit dull to me, but very powerful.

 Jidmah wrote:
The issue why most people were complaining is because people wanted to run their bad moons/dakkadakka armies from the past which heavily relied on shoota boyz.
Sustain 2 and those melee buffs are exactly what shoota boyz need to compete with the much better melee options we have.

Those armies are now once again left without a detachment to support their play style.

I can agree, it sucks, but so can the guy's over there, that want to play their buggies. This falls in the general sense that the issue is the data sheet not a detachment fix. Like i mentioned, i hope GW pivot's into fixing under performing stuff. I don't think it's a great idea when there is like another year for 11th, like some mentioned, to release more unbalanced stuff.

But that's just my opinion, for Gork & Mork only knows what goes in GW head.

Andykp wrote:
One thing I have thought about more dakka is as others have said, it’s not about dakka anymore, it’s really about faster infantry and walkers, with. Touch more dakka for one turn.

Jidmah, you are right I do try to take models i like more than optimise the lists but I’m playing more games now against more competitive players and feel a bit like I’m hamstringing myself a bit. Really liked taking more shoota boyz in more dakka and I’ve made them work ok in tactical brigade too. The lists I made that were more optimum more dakka were a bit dull to me, but very powerful.

I think you can easily get away with *a* unit of shootaboyz in tactical brigade or dreadmob. Give them a big mek or weirdboy and Ufthak and they wiIl absolutely have an impact on the game. I do it regularly for my crusades because I simply love the little buggers.

It doesn't scale though, if bring more than one of those tricked out units, they will eat away the points you need for units which actively work towards winning the game. Bringing 3+ units of shootas is pretty much losing the game at list building stage.

 Jidmah wrote:

Andykp wrote:
One thing I have thought about more dakka is as others have said, it’s not about dakka anymore, it’s really about faster infantry and walkers, with. Touch more dakka for one turn.

Jidmah, you are right I do try to take models i like more than optimise the lists but I’m playing more games now against more competitive players and feel a bit like I’m hamstringing myself a bit. Really liked taking more shoota boyz in more dakka and I’ve made them work ok in tactical brigade too. The lists I made that were more optimum more dakka were a bit dull to me, but very powerful.

I think you can easily get away with *a* unit of shootaboyz in tactical brigade or dreadmob. Give them a big mek or weirdboy and Ufthak and they wiIl absolutely have an impact on the game. I do it regularly for my crusades because I simply love the little buggers.

It doesn't scale though, if bring more than one of those tricked out units, they will eat away the points you need for units which actively work towards winning the game. Bringing 3+ units of shootas is pretty much losing the game at list building stage.

Good to know, I too love them, feel like “real” ORK boyz to me. The big mek leading them would give them the MEK keyword for Dredd mob right? Hadn’t thought of that.

Correct, and dat button works for them in both shooting and melee. Don't expect any miracles from them in combat though unless it's your Waaagh! turn.

Besides the lackluster Kult of Speed Detachment, I don't understand why Orks aren't represented more in the top 5 placements in tournaments.

T5 1w bodies and melee focus with no saves, horde.. you either do damage and deny points or your already playing from behind.
Although we have a simple plan we are surprisingly hard to pilot.

We are not eldar level but we don't have the marine saves, so mistakes snowball really hard. All you need is bypass our T and we star losing models fast and most weapons do this easily, couple that with bad position and bad data sheets and well that's it. Honestly, some datasheets are traps.

One or 2 critical charges fail, or you got a bad shooting turn and a winnable or close game turns to a loss out of no where.

 Jidmah wrote:
Correct, and dat button works for them in both shooting and melee. Don't expect any miracles from them in combat though unless it's your Waaagh! turn.

Hadn’t thought of the melee bonus too. Will try that then, be good to dust of the shoota boyz. Ta.

 Forceride wrote:
T5 1w bodies and melee focus with no saves, horde.. you either do damage and deny points or your already playing from behind.
Although we have a simple plan we are surprisingly hard to pilot.

We are not eldar level but we don't have the marine saves, so mistakes snowball really hard. All you need is bypass our T and we star losing models fast and most weapons do this easily, couple that with bad position and bad data sheets and well that's it. Honestly, some datasheets are traps.

One or 2 critical charges fail, or you got a bad shooting turn and a winnable or close game turns to a loss out of no where.

I agree. Orks are difficult to learn and have a higher skill ceiling than most armies. That's why even over decades and editions you see the same people doing well.
We've also seen great players switch to orks and fall flat on their faces, who then switch back to eldar or marines and immediately became successful again.

It also has repeatedly put GW into the situation where orks were mostly fine for your average tournament player, while seasoned veterans suddenly became unstoppable meta-crushers.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Besides the lackluster Kult of Speed Detachment, I don't understand why Orks aren't represented more in the top 5 placements in tournaments.

lol we have been representing the top 5 multiple times this edition.. we just get nerfed immediately anytime we do slightly to we’ll.. warhorde had massive points increases after the index for balance, bully boys and green tide were nerfed after the codex, taktical was nerf with the first dataslate, and more Dakka was emergency nerfed… there was multiple point increases as well to good units.. the only buffs we really got this edition was waaagh in command phase.. and new releases such as tankbustas and new detachments to keep orks competitive. To be fair orks had a good index detachment and a good codex and 2 good new detachments on release. We are still a good codex even if a few things have been slightly over nerfed. Most of which wasn’t really warranted like taktical which had a lifetime 56% winrate when it was triple nerfed.

Taktical is fine to play even with the nerfs though.

Yeah, that is why I play War Horde all the time + the rules are stabile for a very long time. I ' m a simple ork…

https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-the-six-best-40k-detachments-for-beginners/

 Tomsug wrote:
Yeah, that is why I play War Horde all the time + the rules are stabile for a very long time. I ' m a simple ork…

https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-the-six-best-40k-detachments-for-beginners/

lol what.

Tyranids invasion fleet is an honorable mention yet War horde is on a second place? As a person who only plays orks and tyranids, Invasion Fleet is way easier to play than orks warhorde because Tyranids has super durable models that can actually avoid dying on objectives where orks cannot. Invasion fleet also has great stratagems that are super universal.

Its way harder to play orks war horde than it is to play Tyranids invasion fleet.

That or i just understand a lot more how to play tyranids.. which i guess is also plausible.

Well, they explained their criteria in the beginning, and they aren't wrong. If you are new and you decided to go with ork, Warhorde is the detachment to go with, irrespective of what units you are running.

Beardedragon wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:
Yeah, that is why I play War Horde all the time + the rules are stabile for a very long time. I ' m a simple ork…

https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-the-six-best-40k-detachments-for-beginners/

lol what.

Tyranids invasion fleet is an honorable mention yet War horde is on a second place? As a person who only plays orks and tyranids, Invasion Fleet is way easier to play than orks warhorde because Tyranids has super durable models that can actually avoid dying on objectives where orks cannot. Invasion fleet also has great stratagems that are super universal.

Its way harder to play orks war horde than it is to play Tyranids invasion fleet.

That or i just understand a lot more how to play tyranids.. which i guess is also plausible.

I am not sure what metric you consider durable..

I think we have a lot durable cheap stuff.

Killrig comes to mind... I think our best tools to be durable are generally in the rules like boyz in green tide or their just damn expensive like squig hoggs.

I have yet to acquire any breaka boys at all, but how do they compare to Nobz? Do they overlap in roles and if yes, who is most efficient? Do you prefer one over the other?

At first glance its sad they dont have nob keyword to fit in to bully boyz, given they have a nobz defensive profile.

But yea i dont have the models yet, so i have not tried them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Forceride wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:
Yeah, that is why I play War Horde all the time + the rules are stabile for a very long time. I ' m a simple ork…

https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-the-six-best-40k-detachments-for-beginners/

lol what.

Tyranids invasion fleet is an honorable mention yet War horde is on a second place? As a person who only plays orks and tyranids, Invasion Fleet is way easier to play than orks warhorde because Tyranids has super durable models that can actually avoid dying on objectives where orks cannot. Invasion fleet also has great stratagems that are super universal.

Its way harder to play orks war horde than it is to play Tyranids invasion fleet.

That or i just understand a lot more how to play tyranids.. which i guess is also plausible.

I am not sure what metric you consider durable..

I think we have a lot durable cheap stuff.

Killrig comes to mind... I think our best tools to be durable are generally in the rules like boyz in green tide or their just damn expensive like squig hoggs.

The only things we have that are durable, are only really durable on a waagh. Very few things are actually generally always durable in all rounds. Like a morkanaut or maybe even a battlewagon in cover. Kill Rigs really arent that durable outside of the waagh given the fnp is only on a 6+ and they are only toughness 10.

MANZ are not durable outside of the waagh, and while squighogs can be durable, they dont show up in winning lists for different reasons.

orks just arent a durable faction and i think thats okay, they just play differently, but thats also why they are more difficult to play than invasion fleet tyranids.

Orks might be considered durable for their cost, but they also pay many taxes, such as transport taxes and character taxes, which ups their Price in points of investment. Im not talking about greentide here, just ork models in general.

We hit a few decent break points, but generally we go for a "kind of durable, but we have a lot of them" vibe.

It's more about being inefficient to kill with common weapons, rather than being actually durable.

That's why i mentioned metric, like Afrodactyl mentioned we have quasi durable in a sense.

It's all down to points. Kill Rig at 155pts is pretty durable per wound and also has a decent bite.

Same can be said with a lot of other stuff. If your expecting durability on the metric in being able to shrug large amounts of damage like c'than, you wont find in any faction, and i see GW making moves to nerf or overcost those units.

So it comes down to your definition of durable.

For the price of 1 morka i can close to bring bring 2 rigs. That morka has extra weight on the list and it better be durable for it's cost.

I prefer redundancy.

Nobz are here to kill the marines. Breaka Boyz are here to kill the tanks. Very different attack profile.

Nobz are kind of swiss army knife unit that are good at killing a wide spread of units and continue on killing stuff afterwards. Pretty much anything with a sv 3+ and T9 or worse is fair game.

Breaka boyz are more or less a glass cannon unit that will punch a huge hole into a high toughness, high wounds target and then die. They struggle against most infantry squads.

Neither should be anywhere near terminators or -1 damage units.

Just noticed we don't have a single unit good against -1 :S well melee wise. And shooting is absolute random d6.

We are in a good place not great but pretty good and multiple decent detachments. Our 1 knock is buggy lists are an issue.

 Forceride wrote:
Just noticed we don't have a single unit good against -1 :S well melee wise. And shooting is absolute random d6.

Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty.

Tank bustas with SAG are good against pretty much everything and flash gits still tend to force enough damage through to deal non-trivial damage to such a unit.

Until we got tank bustas, I struggled a lot more against high T/save combinations than against -1 damage. Now I just pulsa-rokkit everything to smithereens.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Forceride wrote:
Just noticed we don't have a single unit good against -1 :S well melee wise. And shooting is absolute random d6.

Shoot the choppy, chop the shooty.

Tank bustas with SAG are good against pretty much everything and flash gits still tend to force enough damage through to deal non-trivial damage to such a unit.

Until we got tank bustas, I struggled a lot more against high T/save combinations than against -1 damage. Now I just pulsa-rokkit everything to smithereens.

This right here. Tankbustas really were the thing Orks were missing as far as ranged units go, especially since they nerfed Mek Gunz and made most shooting units only AP-1.

Hilarious note from meta monday: Currently orks have one of the lowest win rates, but the most event wins so far this year.

 Jidmah wrote:
Hilarious note from meta monday: Currently orks have one of the lowest win rates, but the most event wins so far this year.

GW: Instructions unclear, nerf Orks again in Balance Dataslate.

Just watch them release another poorly thought through surprise detachment and ignore Speed Freeks as usual.

Just hoping tankbustas skim by without any changes to their datasheet or points, they're what's keeping a lot of Ork detachments afloat in keeping up with the meta arms race at the moment.

Not sure if this is the right topic for this question. Could anyone point me in the right direction if it isn't?

I've been thinking of a jail tactics using deffkoptas. Their toughness and woundcount make them seem like a very good jail unit which can fly over enemy infiltrators.

It containst 18 deffkoptas, deffkilla wartrike with 6 bikers and super runts. And fill the list with trukk boys, tankbustas flashgits etc.

The idea is a first turn Waagh! Which has the super runts do a dogbone congaline in front of the enemy deployment and the warbikers fill a gap on the flanks. The second turn will have the deffkoptas in that same position.

What do you guys think, is a deffkoptas jail feasible?

Aarsigheid wrote:
Not sure if this is the right topic for this question. Could anyone point me in the right direction if it isn't?

I've been thinking of a jail tactics using deffkoptas. Their toughness and woundcount make them seem like a very good jail unit which can fly over enemy infiltrators.

It containst 18 deffkoptas, deffkilla wartrike with 6 bikers and super runts. And fill the list with trukk boys, tankbustas flashgits etc.

The idea is a first turn Waagh! Which has the super runts do a dogbone congaline in front of the enemy deployment and the warbikers fill a gap on the flanks. The second turn will have the deffkoptas in that same position.

What do you guys think, is a deffkoptas jail feasible?

Personally, the problem is that in the current meta for jail units is that if you don't have infiltrate or scout, you won't generally won't be in position to box them in. Even with terrain to hide behind, it means the advance force you're sending in will most likely be cleared out by the time the deffkoptas arrive, and you're just giving units for your opponent to kill by piecemeal, especially since you only really have the super runts that can go against other enemy scout or infiltrate units that a lot of people take now to counter opposing jail units. The other issue is that while the deffkilla wartrike's unit has a very large footprint (a good thing to hold up the enemy), that can be a double edged sword in actually working against them since you are trying to super boost them T1 but enemy infiltrators or scouts can gum up certain zones to hinder your movement since you can't go through buildings, meaning even something like a rhino or a couple of screening units can bottleneck them in a certain area if you aren't able to clear them out. It also banks on you getting the first turn which can be difficult if the enemy also has enhancements, units or strategems that can redeploy their units before the game starts, like Tzzentch or Eldar.

Having 18 deffkoptas is also a significant investment, since you're basically putting 540 points just on having them hold up units, which isn't terrible for what you get, but I feel the inability to be affected by stuff like Ard as Nails or other ideal stratagems unless you're taking the Speed Freeks detachment makes them limited in what they can do to stop opponents once they do get stuck in, and they aren't really that hard to kill barring basic infantry.

New ork points for the balance dataslate is out. Unfortunately my predictions were correct, we're still paying for the sins of Moar Dakka because GW doesn't know when to keep beating a dead horse if it isn't marines.

Points went up for the usual suspects for SAG, Gitz, TB's, Trukks, Lootas and Boyz as well for some reason? I guess Squighog boyz went down a smidge but without something to address their AP, they're still largely dead in the water. Same thing for the buggies which need a fundamental overhaul since a 5 point cut is laughable.

There is also a kult of speed detach change in the rule, from eligible to shoot > eligible to shoot and charge after advance.

I am not sure we can survive this one... these are direct nerfs at some of the best tools and their common through out the lists...

Only reason for the change is to force a change in list composition, but will never happen and this fundamentally underlines a thinking that does not understand our army issues.

Will remain playing but hard to see we not going bottom of the barrel.

 Forceride wrote:
There is also a kult of speed detach change in the rule, from eligible to shoot > eligible to shoot and charge after advance.

I am not sure we can survive this one... these are direct nerfs at some of the best tools and their common through out the lists...

Only reason for the change is to force a change in list composition, but will never happen and this fundamentally underlines a thinking that does not understand our army issues.

Will remain playing but hard to see we not going bottom of the barrel.

Especially with the new updates to DG and TS in the meta, who are definitely well positioned to counter us with our reduced damage output.

Definitely death by papercuts. Nothing shifted, lists just don't fit together anymore.

Those ork changes are impressive, and not in a good way.

Did they nerf units of 10 flash gits just to hit tactical brigade, a detachment which wasn't doing anything impressive anymore? And they hit lootas even harder, despite being worse?
Boyz is even more of a headscratcher, what are they trying to archive?
A casual list will be down a whole unit now, an optimized two. Most lists were barely holding one, I honestly can't see taktical being competitive anymore like this.

And their attempt to buff speed freeks is a complete joke. Advance and charge on units which are medicore in combat at best, and the discount essentially amounts to one extra buggy at 2000 points, since they also hiked up trukks at the same time. I guess we are supposed to run beastsnagga speedfreeks riding killrigs, right?

So, tankbustas, trukks, SAG and zodgrod I get. Everything else is stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:
Especially with the new updates to DG and TS in the meta, who are definitely well positioned to counter us with our reduced damage output.

Don't worry, the nerf for DG is inevitable. In my casual crusade, I'm completely massacring anyone I face, despite me deliberately playing a ton units that don't appear in much in top lists. But it's not just launcher drones, LoV, LoC and biologus that are good. All those units which aren't tier1 like defilers, blightlords, plague marines, poxwalkers, Morarion are all extremely solid units which would move up when the front row gets nerfed into oblivion It's not moar dakka levels of bad, but imagine every other unit being on the level of tankbustas. Something this dominant in both on tournaments and casual play always gets hit hard, possibly multiple times.

I couldn't even tell you good strategies to beat DG with orks at this point. They are super efficient against both hordes and durable units, have good AP and strength, getting close is dangerous and their toughness above the sweet spot where orks can kill things well. The only good news is that they are slower than orks and really don't like getting hit by volumes of powerklaws and rokkits. So I guess tank bustas, nobz+warboss and maybe koptas?

 Jidmah wrote:
Snipped for brevity

I agree that the Gitz, Lootas and Big Mek hit were all part of a belated nerf to an army that had already been emergency nerfed, and didn't really need to happen.

Fortunately the changes just put my 1990 point army to a flat 2000, so I've come away lucky.

The KoS changes are nice, but it's still just not enough. The relevant datasheets need changing, not the points costs.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Snipped for brevity

I agree that the Gitz, Lootas and Big Mek hit were all part of a belated nerf to an army that had already been emergency nerfed, and didn't really need to happen.

Fortunately the changes just put my 1990 point army to a flat 2000, so I've come away lucky.

The KoS changes are nice, but it's still just not enough. The relevant datasheets need changing, not the points costs.

It's also slightly annoying that the change while nice also just makes half the WAAAGH! rule redundant in the sense that you're really only calling it for the 5+ invuln save now, which makes me think of why they distinguished between a SpeedWAAAGH! and regular WAAAGH! in the previous edition. But yeah, it's a minor band aid to the gaping problem of how the detachment fundamentally is predicated on units that don't synergize or frankly do any roles well. It also doesn't help there's no meaningful options on said units. I'd much prefer the buggies cost up to 100-150 each but do actual significant damage, with more clearly delineated roles for each buggy. It also solves the issue of your deployment zone being blocked off by your own parking lot of units with how big their bases are.

The Boomdakka Snazzwagon should be primarily utility with its smoke clouds giving either negatives to hit or cover/obscuring, in addition to being a kamikaze unit (when it dies you can choose to act as if though it blows up on a 6) once you get close enough. The Kustom Boosta Blasta can be our mid-range jack of all trades, with their Rivet Kannon giving other units that it attacks an additional AP to provide ways to deal with cover being everywhere. The Megatrakk Scrapjet acts as the "anvil" unit of the army, by being slower but tankier and with significant anti-elite capabilities for both shooting and CC. The Shokkjump Dragsta should be the dedicated anti-tank, ideally with S12 AP-3 and devastating wounds rather than the weird psuedo anti-character unit it is now. Ideally their warp tunnel is more a reactive teleport to escape counter fire moreso than what it is now. The Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy is the only one where I'm not super sure what their role should be, given that indirect fire is so hit or miss and GW clearly doesn't want it to do meaningful damage, but maybe giving the gun [Anti-infantry 3+] and keeping some of the utility of negatives to movement/charges/advances might be good enough if they beef up their damage output.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Snipped for brevity

I agree that the Gitz, Lootas and Big Mek hit were all part of a belated nerf to an army that had already been emergency nerfed, and didn't really need to happen.

Fortunately the changes just put my 1990 point army to a flat 2000, so I've come away lucky.

The KoS changes are nice, but it's still just not enough. The relevant datasheets need changing, not the points costs.

Nah, the SAG big mek deserved it. When there is two load-outs for a character and you don't even stop to think about one of them (KMB/Smasha gun) the other one is too cheap

The regular big mek is a decent unit, I've run him often enough. But if you get the choice to upgrade a KMB into a SAG, why would you ever not do that?

Well in the meantime i will attempt to make some "Da Big Hunt" pressure list work.

With a full unit of squighogs with glory hog, 20 grots with zodgrod and 10 kommandos.

Then a few more grots here and there, snikrot, a stormboy unit, and 30 snaggas with bosses, and 3 kill rigs.

Why Da Big Hunt? Aren't their tools too narrow compared to Taktikal or War Horde?

 Kungfetti wrote:
Why Da Big Hunt? Aren't their tools too narrow compared to Taktikal or War Horde?

I got inspired by a list some time ago with 2x8 squighogs with glory hog boss and mozzie. I tried it out and it worked okay but played secondary missions terribly. So ive modified it to only encorporate one unit of squiggies with glory hog.

On one hand im sure you are right, Da Big Hunt may not be as great as the rest of the detatchments. But it does have a few merits, such as taking a kill rig, snagga boys or even my squighogs in to reserve, an advance and charge/Fall back and charge on demand. Given the changes some time ago i dont think it works out too bad anymore.


Furthermore given that you can have glory hog on the squiggies for scout 9 means that against a decent amount of match ups you can absolutely lock down half of the map, with 8 squighogs + character, 20 grots + zodgrod and 10 kommandos. And that is what im doing.

I lock down the map centered near the mid objective towards his natural objective outside his deployment zone. From there he can only move forward toward "my side" where i have 2-3 kill rigs stationed along side 30 snagga boys with a boss.

I attempt to win the primary game while keep scoring secondaries with grots, storm boys and snikrot, all while keeping him down.


Thats the idea at least, and ive only tried it once (which worked very good against knights). but there are of course limitations. Melee armies might not be the best to charge headlong in to at turn 1, so if you meet those, the game changes in to maybe a normal game of warhammer. Furthermore, if you face off against someone with lots of deepstrike and units that can fly. I suppose you can deal with the deepstrike units but the fly units can be a problem. If you have turn 2 its also a toss up in terms of how the game will go. If he doesnt move up too much because hes afraid of you, great. If he does move up, then it becomes a regular game of 40k.


Is this better than taktikal? I dont know, but it is different. I also dont know just how hard taktikal were hit by the absurd nerf to many of our units. But Da big hunt sounded fun, so i wanted to try it. Its not without flaws though, squighogs have 1AP too little, and they are unable to get +1 to hit from any boss types, which is just stupid. The squig bomb cant be used when you advance or fall back, and your beastboss on squig + Mozzie should by all means have AP 2 on their weapons too.


But warhorde is probably still better. But i did want to try out da big hunt. Its a very mobile army with constant advance and charge as well as take units in to reserve.

Cool! I was just curious. I get to play too little so was wondering what the appeal was. Hopefully I will get to play on sunday and am aiming to try out Taktikal woth a smattering of different stuff. I figure that since I'll undoubtedkly lose I might as well try out some fun stuff.

Thats definitely the spirit. I mean orks are incredibly complex and difficult to master, unlike many other factions out there. Its important to try out new unit compositions and such to see what works for you and what doesnt.

Beardedragon wrote:
I mean orks are incredibly complex and difficult to master, unlike many other factions out there.

This is an interesting quote! Why do you think Orks are more complex to play than other races?
Or is it more complex to win with them in this edition?

 Kroem wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
I mean orks are incredibly complex and difficult to master, unlike many other factions out there.

This is an interesting quote! Why do you think Orks are more complex to play than other races?
Or is it more complex to win with them in this edition?

I can try and answer this, not sure everyone will agree though:

1. We have a simple plan. Like every simple plan, your opponent sees through this so it becomes a mind game of forcing bad decisions and compromises. This is not easy by itself because of the other reasons.
2. Mistakes snowball hard or can be so critical that are game ending. That critical charge that you failed costed the game, you charged the wrong target.. shooting to the wrong thing.. not correctly assessing that enemy model threat or tank, yeah all armies suffer for these mistakes more or less, but we suffer for all them for same reason, because our defenses are based in bodies, we are like a glass canon that has a lot of bullets, every mistake blows up a one or more bullets, so each one diminishes not only tactically but also offensively. It was pretty common to win on points, yet every single piece of your army had been removed, these days less so but that is and continues to be the plan... we just do not have mobility/staying power/offensive of other armies. We live and die on the decision of the bodies we have, this creates a need for EVERY TRADE to be in our favor.
3. Our army is random, no seriously, take a look at our datasheets, most of the good stuff is either on 4 or 5, but in general with large volume. This makes really mathy and prone to experiment, it also makes most of it traps which is a common trend in the faction. But has you might have saw in DakkaDakka detach, all it takes is some badly thought keywords/rules and we turn busted really quick, bare in mind this is not always so. Its part of the charm of the army and mind games... your opponent will be guessing just as much as you, will those flashgits obliterate that unit or whiff royally? Again this goes into point 2, we can swing a lot, i think it's called the delta in math when something fall's way out of the common stats, we are a high delta army.

Honestly this is the things that comes to mind, i help new bros getting their wings with their armies and the contrast between their tools and mine are like heaven and earth. I had this same discussion using these same arguments with a space marine player. Because he failed to access both my stuff abilities and his own stuff advantages.

 Kroem wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
I mean orks are incredibly complex and difficult to master, unlike many other factions out there.

This is an interesting quote! Why do you think Orks are more complex to play than other races?
Or is it more complex to win with them in this edition?

I play orks and tyranids for instance. Ive had 1 RTT victory when we just got our codex, with pre nerf'ed bully boys. Fun times. On the other hand, ive never really done well with orks afterwards. Orks are punished super hard by mistakes, because everything we have is made up of paper, barring a few units here and there. On the other hand ive had a 2nd and a 3rd place at an actual GT with tyranids. Tyranids are also not really that map dependant but if you play at team tournaments then orks can really be skewered depending on whether you end up on a light table or not.

When i play tyranids, however, i can make mistakes, and not always lose a game based on that mistake. Yesterday, i played Da big hunt, and i failed to screen out a narrow enough path for 20 zerkers teleporting in with lord invucatus (rapid ingress then move 8 + advance and charge) on to my 300 point squighog riders with a 160 point boss on squig with gloryhog. I basically lost all of them because i had not called a waaagh when he teleported in, and my kill rig was not positioned correctly to prevent my squiggies from being attacked, and lost the game.

I made 1 mistake, and i lost. I get that its a big sort of mistake, but the fact the waaagh has to be called at your command phase unlike in 9th where it could be any ones command phase, makes it difficult to find the right time to waaagh. I could have prevented a complete disaster if i could be allowed to go 5++ but i just couldnt. I also lost a kill rig there.

The point is, if i had played my usual maleceptor/norn list with hormagaunt screens this wouldnt be a problem, and even if they went through, all they would attempt to kill were -1 to hit malcepetors with a 4+ and a 5+++ from my fnp stratagem. And im not even sure they would succeed.

Most factions are allowed to make mistakes, but orks arent. You have to play flawlessly and know the game to an insane degree because honestly, you're neither durable nor do you actually hit all that hard. You CAN hit hard, but you dont by standard. Its also a really slow army once the waagh is over and you are out of your transports, and that means you have to really pay the transport tax, on top of the character tax. Something at least tyranids do not.

Furthermore orks are often mostly melee focused, or shooting focused, they often dont have a lot of combined arms, unlike things like tyranids. And Games workshop seem dead set on making sure we dont get a lot of shooting units on the field, by constantly nerfing our infantry capable of actually shooting.

And the fact that those who win with orks, are very few in between and only the same ork players for the most part. Take Denmark for instance (my country) no ork player has won any major GTs in a very long while because we dont produce any super good ork players.


The bottom line really is, orks are not durable, they are also not super fast barring maybe 1 round and you have many taxes to pay. This means that positioning is more important for us than it ever were for my tyranids, as one mistake will lose you entire units, and maybe even the game. You can hit hard sure but we dont actually hit as hard as we may sometimes like to do, and our shooting can be unreliable and our infantry shooting seem to always be nerfed.

Orks are difficult. Very difficult. I saw an insane difference in complexity when i shifted over to tyranids, and i know tyranid plays a lot like many other factions do. Sure they have their own complexity also (every faction does) but some factions are just easier than others. I think its important to acknowledge that not all factions are equally hard in their own way. For instance space marines with a focus on robute guilliman picking 2 oath targets with vindicators is not a hard faction at all. Some easy factions can have hard detatchments, but for orks it doesnt really matter what detatchment you play, it wont be easy for you if you want to win GTs. You have to play perfectly.

Can confirm what Forceride and Beardedragon wrote. Whether your opponent rolls good or bad, orks will continuedly bleed wounds over the course of the game, even a complete and utter defeat of your opponent will leave you with heaps of dead models by turn 5. If you overestimate your unit's killing power or just roll badly, you weaken or lose an important part of your army, which pairs with the swingy nature of low BS and AP. Sometimes and entire shooting phase whiffs and you need to plan for that. It's also worth noting that orks tend to have much less tools and tricks available to them that armies like tau, eldar or marines do. The ork toolbox ist mostly just above average statlines which get elevated to great stats during the Waaagh! Most of the game plan is to make sure that the right statline is in the right place at the right time.

I've currently switched to my DG army and once again, it feels like going into easy mode, and not just because of their insane power level right now. Sometimes enemy shooting just bounces off my units and does nothing, and I'm more or less guaranteed that pointing the right weapons at the right targets will cause some damage. That simply doesn't happen when playing orks.

Yeah, if you have a motorbike like this, you say, your motorbike has “charakter”

And lets not even talk about how every time you want to play a detatchment you must skew your lists and almost have Max amount of units of specific types. So you will often find 3x deffkoptas, 3x meks, 3x deff dreads, 3x what ever.

Wanna play kult of speed? Congratulations, you need 18 deffkoptas. And probably a lot of warbiker units too. Wanna play Dread mob? You either need a lot of tankbustas/lootas with lots of mek keyword characters (like 3 big meks and several mini meks) and you cant get your detatchment rule unless everyone of your infantry models pay the character tax. If you for some reason decide not to play the infantry and go for walkers, then have fun putting together like 6 to 12 killa kanz or 3 shooty deff dreads, which most people dont even own.

Da big hunt? 2-3 kill rigs, a full 8 squighogboys or like 40 beastsnagga boys.
Taktikal brigade? Character mash, again a ton of different characters needed.
Bully boys? 15-20 Nobz or 3x5-6 MANZ + 3x warboss in mega armor.

The only real none spammy detatchment we have is war horde really. Except it spams trukks of course.


To be fair, shooty deff dreads are actually quite good in more dakka and dread mob, but who even has 3x deff dreads with magnetized arms? Many people dont show up at tournaments with 3x deff dreads with 3-4 KMBs per dread, simply because they dont HAVE any deff dreads with that loadout. And lets be real here, Deff dreads and killa kanz, are NOT easy to magnetize! I have seen more people with several deff dreads with different loadouts than just 3 deff dreads with fully magnetized arms. And that happens when orks are your first army, then you most likely havent done this.

Lets look some convenience stuff here:
One deff dread package does NOT provide you with 4 KMBs. It provides you with 2. So for every package of deff dread you buy, you cant even outfit One single dread with all 4 arms worth of KMBs. You need 2 packages to outfit 1 dread.

Looking at the Killa kanz package you can make 3 killa kanz, but you dont have 3 flamers or 3 rocket launchers in the package either.

So even if you want to play dread mob or more dakka with a Deff dread or killa kan focus, you cant do so unless you pay for more than just the models, you have to somehow find extra weapons to outfit your units. Which is absolutely insane.

Orks spam different and specific units to a degree tyranids, at least, do not. Depending on what detatchment i play, my entire rooster of units in my ork army that make sense just change up completely. Whether i play synaptic nexus, crusher stampede or invasion fleet, many of the same units can be used for Tyranids. Whether i play kult of speed, da big hunt or dread mob, i can suddenly find myself using completely different roosters. Meaning even as orks have a large rooster of models, you also MUST have those units. You cant build a base of units and go: this is fine to play most detatchments, because it will not work.

This makes orks tediously expensive to also play. This also adds to the difficulty of actually playing the faction and why only the same ork players even win tournaments.

I can't say I agree with that. I rarely, if ever, run triples of anything besides gretchin, boyz or trukks. Unless you rely on having broken things carry you to a win, most detachments are fully playable even if you don't max out their favored rules.

Beast snagga boyz and breaka boyz lead by a warboss character are still great units in a bully boyz detachment, tactical brigade needs like 4-5 big mek or warboss characters to function and in dread mob you are probably better off not bringing a single deff dread than 3. 6 killa kanz really isn't a big number, it's literally two boxes.
The one reason to spam koptas in KoS is because every single other options sucks.
The only detachment which requires such a commitment is the beastsnagga one, and it kind of was designed in a way that you get a big bonus for big limitations.

There are plenty of units which are good irrespective of the detachment you are running. The main reason why people freak out over not getting their detachment rule is OCD. It odd to think that flash gits or tank bustas are suddenly a bad unit just because they don't get sustained hits in melee.

 Jidmah wrote:
I can't say I agree with that. I rarely, if ever, run triples of anything besides gretchin, boyz or trukks. Unless you rely on having broken things carry you to a win, most detachments are fully playable even if you don't max out their favored rules.

Beast snagga boyz and breaka boyz lead by a warboss character are still great units in a bully boyz detachment, tactical brigade needs like 4-5 big mek or warboss characters to function and in dread mob you are probably better off not bringing a single deff dread than 3. 6 killa kanz really isn't a big number, it's literally two boxes.
The one reason to spam koptas in KoS is because every single other options sucks.
The only detachment which requires such a commitment is the beastsnagga one, and it kind of was designed in a way that you get a big bonus for big limitations.

There are plenty of units which are good irrespective of the detachment you are running. The main reason why people freak out over not getting their detachment rule is OCD. It odd to think that flash gits or tank bustas are suddenly a bad unit just because they don't get sustained hits in melee.

While 6 killa kanz isnt a lot, you dont get 3 rocket launchers with each box, making even 6 killa kanz a semi tedious project to start on. Deff dreads are a nightmare to magnetize and few people can even put down a deff dread with 4 rockets or KMBs, because they made melee deff dreads.

and you still rock often either 10 or 20 nobz for Bully boyz, or 15 MANZ. Even being able to field 15 Manz is 5 packages. 18 deff koptas is 6 packages, Greentide needs at least 80 boys rocking in 8 packages.

These units are only useful in such a massive amount in that one specific detatchment, being useless in the same quantity in other detatchments (for the most part at least). You dont need 80 boyz in any other detatchment, you might at best you 40 or just 20. You wont use 18 deff koptas anywhere else, just there. Mega Nobz might show up in a unit of 5 at any given time or 10 Nobz, but never 20 nobz, or 15 Manz.

Yea there are overlaps of useful units that you can use multiple places, but some detatchments just puts them in extreme quantity that you wont find anywhere else. Ill never use as many beast snagga boys anywhere else as im using in Da big hunt. This is true for many of our detatchments. This is not true for the most part for the tyranid detatchments. I can still more or less use the same units to a degree of the same quantity in other detatchments.

This is why our detatchments really change out what our army can do. This is both good and bad. Good if you have a wild rooster of basically everything the army can throw at you. Good if you like wildly different play styles also. If anything i feel like GW did a good job making the different detatchments diverse and interesting (that they made a massive godsized gak on buggies is another problem).Bad if you.. well dont have the different models needed.

I been advocating that we should have ways to outright ignore bleeding wounds or prevent them since 9th.

I think green tide captures this the best, the issue is this should have been in all infantry datasheets, besides the waagghh rule.

We should be one of the few armies, like nids/necrons/IG that should have the ability to recover bodies. We are a horde armies, the main concept of a horde is infinite number and attrition, we should be the kind of armies that absorbs damage the best we do not need to do best damage. But we currently feel like eldar but with less everything

The idea is for each 5 you kill i get 10 back, we should be able to keep our vehicles running since their literally junk, so they should comeback if proper support given.

I think that is the way, i am not seeing us ever compete on mobility or offense, so the answer should be staying power


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would like to add, that is a thematic feeling of the faction, endless numbers endless bullets, junk just runs up to you even if it blows up. All in a mad rush to confront the opponent.

I don't need to worry to hit you i have buckets for that. I don't care how many of mine you kill, there's always more itching to fight

It's like the ork saying that we always win, we always keep coming what matters is the fight, and that should be the feeling my opponent has against me, i always coming back and i don't care for losses, be them tank/walkers/monsters/boyz

 Forceride wrote:
I been advocating that we should have ways to outright ignore bleeding wounds or prevent them since 9th.

I think green tide captures this the best, the issue is this should have been in all infantry datasheets, besides the waagghh rule.

We should be one of the few armies, like nids/necrons/IG that should have the ability to recover bodies. We are a horde armies, the main concept of a horde is infinite number and attrition, we should be the kind of armies that absorbs damage the best we do not need to do best damage. But we currently feel like eldar but with less everything

The idea is for each 5 you kill i get 10 back, we should be able to keep our vehicles running since their literally junk, so they should comeback if proper support given.

I think that is the way, i am not seeing us ever compete on mobility or offense, so the answer should be staying power


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would like to add, that is a thematic feeling of the faction, endless numbers endless bullets, junk just runs up to you even if it blows up. All in a mad rush to confront the opponent.

I don't need to worry to hit you i have buckets for that. I don't care how many of mine you kill, there's always more itching to fight

It's like the ork saying that we always win, we always keep coming what matters is the fight, and that should be the feeling my opponent has against me, i always coming back and i don't care for losses, be them tank/walkers/monsters/boyz

GW have almost always shown preferential treatment for recursion rules more towards Necrons, Tyranids and Guard unfortunately, both from strategems or specific characters/units (e.g. Chenkov for conscripts, Tervigon for Termagants, Necrons you already know through reanimation protocols) and more recently GSC. Orks I think have only ever had the Green Tide strat back in 8th, and I find it funny that for a race that is notoriously known for being hardy and able to be patched together up quickly that we can't compete on several levels of durability outside of having a relatively higher baseline of toughness, but we aren't really costed in a way that lets us leverage it outside a WAAAGH! turn.

Actually 3 deffdreads are per $, time and space much easier target than 18 koptas. There use to be a time you could stack 3 units of 3 dreads. So the max used to by 9.

3 are easy to build and paint. And the spare parts are easy to gain in various designs from 3d companies or 3d print even without buying “fake” parts.

Lowering the max number of models of some type is the best we faced in last few years. Doing 30 MANz was really annoying and I expect the koptas would be reduce to 3x3 in few years too, because they are one of the few units left in the old “scale”.

Which is a pitty, I have 12 already and another 24 old AoBR koptas in the storebox because I love them:]

I agree Grimskull, remains to be seen what we get in 11th, because i think this spot is where we are going to stay. Not confident in the next slate to balance DG their going to buff us.

 Forceride wrote:
I agree Grimskull, remains to be seen what we get in 11th, because i think this spot is where we are going to stay. Not confident in the next slate to balance DG their going to buff us.

Weirdly I'm hoping that we don't get any major buffs next slate other than some token points adjustment. If they can bring the top tier factions down a little, then we can hopefully claw our way back into the golden 45-50% range. Orks have a habit of getting stomped into the dirt every time we get buffs and stick our head over the parapet.

I'd rather a lifetime of being a mid-tier/rogue army than a few weeks at the top of the tree before getting triple-nerfed into oblivion for the millionth time.

Well, games workshop always seem to heavy handedly deal with orks if we stray too close to the sun, so i agree with that notion.

 Tomsug wrote:
Actually 3 deffdreads are per $, time and space much easier target than 18 koptas. There use to be a time you could stack 3 units of 3 dreads. So the max used to by 9.

3 are easy to build and paint. And the spare parts are easy to gain in various designs from 3d companies or 3d print even without buying “fake” parts.

Lowering the max number of models of some type is the best we faced in last few years. Doing 30 MANz was really annoying and I expect the koptas would be reduce to 3x3 in few years too, because they are one of the few units left in the old “scale”.

Which is a pitty, I have 12 already and another 24 old AoBR koptas in the storebox because I love them:]

Also keep in mind that dread and kan arms are the literally the same bits. If you mix and match the boxes you can easily get whatever loadout you want. In additon, deff dreads are probably one of the easiest models to magnetize in all of 40k, I literally did it with no modelling skills whatsoever with just a clipper and super glue when there were no online tutorials. Those youtube videos jumping through hoops to perfectly hide the magnets in within the ball joins are just perfectionist nonsense.

As for the new "scale", it's literally 1 unit = 1 or 2 boxes of models. All reduction of unit sizes follow that pattern for existing boxes, new sets tend to be 1 box only unless the unit leader dual-builds into a regular dude. Also, old unit size for koptas was never more than 5, so those 24 AoBR koptas have never been playable outside of apocalypse formations.
There is no reason to believe that GW would reduce them to less than 3-6 outside of "They are out to get me!" tinfoil hat conspiracy theories.

We are on 38% win rate with very few people playing orks on competitive level right now. This gives us hope no other nerf comes

One dude however seems to be quite succesfull which I cannot validate, but can live with it




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JIDMAH - I ' m pretty conivnced there was 3x6 window but it doesn' t matter. The ridiculous ammount of Koptas I have come comes from funny drunk shopping on ebay, not from intention playing 20+ koptas

The fact our rating is tanking just makes me facepalm at the cognitive dissonance over at GW.

 Tomsug wrote:
We are on 38% win rate with very few people playing orks on competitive level right now. This gives us hope no other nerf comes

One dude however seems to be quite succesfull which I cannot validate, but can live with it




Automatically Appended Next Post:
JIDMAH - I ' m pretty conivnced there was 3x6 window but it doesn' t matter. The ridiculous ammount of Koptas I have come comes from funny drunk shopping on ebay, not from intention playing 20+ koptas

3x6 has been possible since the new plastic kit, which is two boxes per unit. Before that kit, koptas have been a 1-5 kit since 4th edition's codex and were usually run as singles unless you were being silly. In apoc there were two formations, one with 15 and one with 30 koptas. I know quite well because I own exactly 15 AOBR koptas

Jidmah - ok, you da boss

Anyway

Despite great win rate, some Warbosses in the CI https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-10th-cold-as-ice-pt-1/

Goonhammer Open 2025 Presented By Gaming Under the Ice - 5th – Rudy Friesen – Orks (Bully Boyz) - mass Manz



Behind Enemy Lines 2025 - 2nd – Shane Meys – Orks (Green Tide): max 120 Boyz and max 30 Kommandos

 Forceride wrote:
The fact our rating is tanking just makes me facepalm at the cognitive dissonance over at GW.

The problem is that GW very clearly is biased towards certain factions being "haves" and "have-nots" on what is on their priority list for being the meta darlings. Unsurprisingly, most marine variants are typically included in that list amongst other factions like Eldar, both of whom take several rounds of comparatively light touches for nerfs when they top up too high on the win rate.

It doesn't help that GW being more aligned with the competitive/tournament scene compared to before, and the meta people that are advising them tend to be very biased towards their own specific factions (which tends to cycle between some marine/CSM variant to other "approved" xenos factions like Nids, Eldar or Necrons) and we have very few (if any) dedicated Ork players that has significant input.

Throw in how our faction works due to how swingy we are and how GW can't do basic math (Moar Dakka being a prime example of this) and so when we do hit big, we often do it with a splash and unfortunately with how many people in the community that see us as the "joke" faction we get dogpiled hard when we look like we grow bigger than our britches.

Can't add anything to that. GW really hasn't changed in that regard, despite finally having found a somewhat competent writer for our codices.

I agree with what you say Grim, but remember to avoid associating malice to what can be explained with ignorance.

I think there is a lot of truth in what you say, specially if we look into the past. But we can give ourselves some room, that there is a lot of ignorance going on, specially when we talk of how our faction should be, and how GW sees it. I have my doubts and it does not make much business sense, keeping something broken. In my local, orks are pretty popular, the owner told me so (i know self experience bias, but we are one of the most played factions, even if we do not win much). So... i think there is a mix of old thinking and just plain incompetence. Or like they mentioned once, they balance on... feels.

Anyway i really would like to see the discussion moving into what we need to succeed, with out being oppressive. I think i made a solid attempt, for now i will just play orks and throw dices.

5th – Sean Olson – Orks (Dread Mob): Sensational Stompa / Morkanaut / Gorkanaut action in Dread Mob.

Just saw that on Goonhammer - sounds hilarious, does anyone have access to the list?

More than half of the codes was in a decent place before the last update, if I would still do those rainbow tables, there would be very few red or yellow units.

Units with big issues are:
Big Mek - has a good gun, a good melee weapon and good skills. He can't compete with a warboss though and needs a point drop.
Boss Snikrot - should cost a lot less. He is 5 points more than fething typhus.
Deffkilla Wartrike - it would be nice if the melta actually had a chance to doing anything, and it absolutely needs an ability that helps warbikers.
Painboss - Plague Surgeon returns one plague marine every turn, has better stats and abilities all around, costs less and is still considered terrible. Needs a full rework.
Wurrboy - Another lost cause, also needs a full rework. Why doesn't he just have the kill rig's abilities?
Shoota Boyz - the one unit that actually should have sustained hits 2. They also need a leader that actually synergizes with them.
Burna Boyz - cuttin' flames should be a lot better, like S5 AP-2 2dmg or something.
Deff Dread - more wounds
Killa Kans - more wounds
Kommandos - too expensive, should not be more than 100 points
Lootas - Drop them back down to S7 for all I care, but make them BS5+/heavy
All buggies need more wounds and better guns.
Mek Gunz - double wounds, double shots, increase points.
Morkanaut - kustom mega zappa should be S12
Stormboyz - need more attacks and an ability that helps them charge from deepstrike
Warbikers - not enough shooting, not enough melee, bad survivability. They need massive buffs to function, like outriders and shining spears got.

I'll not go into planes, fortifications or the stompa. GW clearly is keeping them out of the game, so there is no point discussing them.

It's alright Jidmah, we know forts/planes/stompa are pipe dreams. I think we are allowed to dream at the least xD

CI part 2mthis week with another warbosses with the different list archetypes and Forceride, you can do more than just a dream.. check it

Bossdoc, ready to serve

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-10th-cold-as-ice-pt-2/

WarGamesCon 15 Warhammer 40K Championship - 6th – Bryan Brooks – Orks (War Horde) - Kill Rigs, big blob os sauig riders, warbikers etc. Pretty mobile list kind of I like.



Huzzah Hobbies Road to NOVA 40K Event Hosted by Away Games - 5th – Sean Olson – Orks (Dread Mob): Sensational Stompa / Morkanaut / Gorkanaut action in Dread Mob



I like both of these lists a lot!

I really just miss the times when kommandos could be brought in units of 5.

Thanks, Tomsug! Unfortunately, I'm one Morkanaut short of running that list...But it looks really fun as hell. Although it probably wouldn't work as well on WTC Terrain...

 Jidmah wrote:
Can confirm what Forceride and Beardedragon wrote. Whether your opponent rolls good or bad, orks will continuedly bleed wounds over the course of the game, even a complete and utter defeat of your opponent will leave you with heaps of dead models by turn 5. If you overestimate your unit's killing power or just roll badly, you weaken or lose an important part of your army, which pairs with the swingy nature of low BS and AP. Sometimes and entire shooting phase whiffs and you need to plan for that. It's also worth noting that orks tend to have much less tools and tricks available to them that armies like tau, eldar or marines do. The ork toolbox ist mostly just above average statlines which get elevated to great stats during the Waaagh! Most of the game plan is to make sure that the right statline is in the right place at the right time.

I've currently switched to my DG army and once again, it feels like going into easy mode, and not just because of their insane power level right now. Sometimes enemy shooting just bounces off my units and does nothing, and I'm more or less guaranteed that pointing the right weapons at the right targets will cause some damage. That simply doesn't happen when playing orks.

I ran into this myself last night. Funny enough, against Death Guard. Nothing the orks had could hit hard enough to do any real damage to stop all the T9 models with 10+ wounds. I was aghast at just how ineffective powerclaws have become. The deathguard auras, free mortal wounds, and an insane number of keyword type weaponry just overwhelmed our greater (yet somehow performance muddled) numbers.

The fight wasn't even close, and even after a full night of replaying the game in my head, I can't think that there was any chance to have won... draw maybe, but no chance of winning.

When talking about T9 hulls, you are most likely referring to drones and MBH. Yes, those are busted, I don't think orks currently have a fighting chance against an optimized DG list.

But DG definitely have a huge nerf incoming the next time GW does any balancing update, so don't worry too much.

What I was referring to wasn't their current power level though. It's more the effect of units sometimes just ending up unharmed despite being shot by a somewhat decent weapon, while being able to just kill a unit or two per turn without trading the shooting unit. Orks can't do either.

 Jidmah wrote:

But DG definitely have a huge nerf incoming the next time GW does any balancing update, so don't worry too much.

Just wait another 3 months.... thats great advice for people who don't play the game/don't play very often.
And that assumes the DG actually get nerfed.

How about in the here & now though?

ccs wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

But DG definitely have a huge nerf incoming the next time GW does any balancing update, so don't worry too much.

Just wait another 3 months.... thats great advice for people who don't play the game/don't play very often.
And that assumes the DG actually get nerfed.

How about in the here & now though?

Yes, GW totally should knee-jerk nerf codices immediately when people start complaining about `them without gathering any actually data.

They also should totally update balancing four times a week so people who don't play very often never experience the same game twice.



Do you even read your own posts before sending them? I assume that there will be an update in the next one or two weeks.


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As for the here and now, I have explained multiple times why I can't see a way for orks to counter them, especially not with the recent point hikes taking them even further apart.

DG naturally counter anything that gets too close, on top of that orks struggle to kill the exact units which are far to cheap for what they do and thus appear in droves in DG lists. The killing blow for orks is that due to being too cheap, DG can bring so much ranged firepower that they can easily eliminate the few units which could actually threaten them without risk. You could cut 250 points from a good DG a list and they would still have a decent chance at winning against orks.

If you have found a miracle cure, feel free to share. I'm out of ideas, and not for the lack of trying. Except if it's grot tanks. Then I don't care.

Its not just against death guard though. A unit of 3 meganobs being lead by a warboss cant even reliable take down a main battle tank even on the waaagh. They would struggle against our own battlewagons, and I don't even want to think how they would deal with Knights.

And that is a Warboss with what is traditionally our heaviest hitting gitz.

Something just feels off all around in Ork-land and its not the lack of the 2nd edition hair squig.

MANz aren't supposed to take down battle tanks though. Most terminator units from other armies can't do that either since thunder hammers were nerfed.

Their job is more or less to be difficult to kill when you aim the wrong weapons at them, while being barely strong enough to take objectives from other infantry units. They either hold objectives in the middle or start fights with units that can't hurt them reliably and wither them down through attrition.

If you are looking for close combat vehicle killers, that would be nobz or breaka boyz.

It's a departure from previous design paradigms, but finally solved the issue of MANz and Nobz stepping on each other's toes for the same role.

Compared to most other terminators, MANz aren't that bad. Many flavors of marines don't have any good leaders and/or don't have good abilities. Meanwhile we have 3 decent ones, and their ability is still useful despite its nerf. My only gripe is that they should absolutely roll back the combi weapon change. That profile has no business representing a rokkit/skorcha weapon.


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I recently heard this in a not ork specific strategy guide about stratagems:

The, by far, most important skill in 10th edition is to know how much damage a unit will do against any type of target.

And I agree. This skill dictates your deployment, movement, strategy and which stratagems you use when. It's also the most common cause for casual player losing against me.
It's twice as important for orks, be cause we don't get second chances when we attack the wrong target, and your opponent usually doesn't have to worry about how well their weapons do against ork defensive profiles.

While i agree it reminds me of last game. Math was going out of the window... from marines shooting in ideal conditions taking only 1 model, to my pistols doing actual dame to deathwing knights, a double snake eyes on a hero claiming him with a pet squig from warboss, ghaz wiffing almost all attacks in 2+hit/2+w/4+S for 6 attacks. Unfreaking believable. We even had a vindi blow up causing damage to friends while 6fnp it like a bandit. Some days the dice just don't agree with anyone.

I agree, we're way too swingy a faction to start relying on maths and averages I've had a foot beastboss tank a full round of shooting from a Drukhari list and then the next game he and his unit got mulched in a single round by a bunch of wyches.

I also agree with Jidmah about MANz, they're a brick that grinds its way through the midboard and occasionally does damage to a hard target.

Yeah, the days of the MANZ missile is far gone sadly. Used to be they were the more efficient delivery unit to bring pocket-sized PK damage compared to regular nobz who were a points sink investment on being a deathstar unit. Regular nobz ended up being paradoxically more resilient at least back in 5th/6th when they had the weird wound allocation rules to let them spread damage around and for Nob Bikerz variants in particular later on to dodge the S8 instant death, especially with the painboy thrown in to give them cybork bodies and FNP to deal with power weapons and regular attacks.

I do miss the old bully boyz formation giving WS5 and fearless to MANZ, but now they're definitely more of an anvil unit. Would personally like their rules to provide more resiliency beyond a WAAAGH! turn (not sure if it should be an invuln, but having 4W a pop or some kind of damage mitigation would be nice, but the Bully Boyz detachment kinda skews how effective the rules would be since having anything on top of a 5+ FNP for 2 turns would probably break the game again and receive a swift nerfing from GW.

 Forceride wrote:
While i agree it reminds me of last game. Math was going out of the window... from marines shooting in ideal conditions taking only 1 model, to my pistols doing actual dame to deathwing knights, a double snake eyes on a hero claiming him with a pet squig from warboss, ghaz wiffing almost all attacks in 2+hit/2+w/4+S for 6 attacks. Unfreaking believable. We even had a vindi blow up causing damage to friends while 6fnp it like a bandit. Some days the dice just don't agree with anyone.

You can't change your luck, but you can change your odds. For example, running MANz into a vindicator and expecting them to kill it will cause to take a risk and expose them to taking a demolisher cannon to the face that will just blast through their 2+ armor. Not knowing your odds will cause you to waste overwatch or counter-attack on units which did not have a chance to wound their targets. It makes it harder to understand when you should use dead 'ard, and when the CP would be better spent of something else. It makes it harder understand when grenades or tank shock can change the outcome of a battle and when it doesn't and what unit to deploy to which flank.

Just looking at the stratagem aspect has changed my game a lot. From being out of CP all the time, I usually have 2-3 CP to spare by the end of turn 3 which I can then use to flip the game around by using a counter-attack or throwing grenades to finish off a durable unit I wouldn't be able to deal with otherwise.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I agree, we're way too swingy a faction to start relying on maths and averages I've had a foot beastboss tank a full round of shooting from a Drukhari list and then the next game he and his unit got mulched in a single round by a bunch of wyches.

I couldn't disagree more. Since we roll a ton of dice and have bad saves, orks are probably one of the least swingy factions out there.
I guess if you play and watch a lot of games, you can learn which units are good into which enemy units just from observation or you might be talented and just do it right by gut feeling.
But in the end, the truth is that there is math behind it, and understanding and applying that math will make you win more games.

One of the biggest mistake in the 40k community is always looking at averages to figure out how much damage a unit will deal. Averages are good to compare similar units to each other, but not to figure out whether your weapon is good at killing another unit. Variance is just as important, but it's a fairly difficult concept to understand, calculate or even eyeball for most people.

For example, let's take a kill rig. Is it worth firing a kill rig at death shroud terminators (4W,T7, 2+/4++)?

Eavy lobba d6 attacks BS 5+ S6 AP 0 2dmg => average 0.13 dmg
Stikka kannon 1 attack BS 5+ S12 AP-2 3dmg => average 0.33 dmg
Wurrtower d3 attacks torrent, S12 AP-3 d6 dmg => average 2.33 dmg

So on average, you should deal 3 damage to a deathshroud, leaving it a 1 life. Going by average, it looks like a bad deal, but you might get lucky and kill that one terminator if you shoot everything at it, right?

Wrong. The heavy lobba isn't a terrible gun, but it has no AP and less strength than the deathshroud's toughness. Even if you do hit, wounding on fives and hoping for your opponent to roll a 1 is so unlikely that you might as well assume it doesn't. You are much better off shooting it at plague marines which give you much better odds at 4+ to wound and 3+ saves, plus every failed save will remove a body. You can also try to shoot a unit of poxwalkers and make use of blast. If somehow none of that is within 48", a demon engine with 3+ armor is still twice as likely to take damage than a DG terminator.
So how about the stikka? From pure averages, it might feel like being just as bad as the lobba. It's a single shot BS5+ gun, so it's most likely going to miss anyways. Always move and play as if it misses, don't let snagged lure you into bad situations. Despite anti-big fing 2+, it's still a good gun to shoot at other things, especially 3 wound models. Against deathshrouds, if it hits, it's going to wound on 3+ and damage 50% of the time which isn't bad odds at all. You are also unlikely to lose damage to overkill, so taking 2-3 wounds out of a death shroud isn't a bad deal at all. The only to not shoot it at the deathshrouds for me would be if there is drone or MBH nearby - more than half the hits will damage them, and you get to charge those high threat targets a bonus. Though, to be fair, if you have a kill rig within 12" of a MBH unit and it's not dead, Gork and Mork are already smiling at you. PBC on the flip side have 2+ armor, more wounds and not as much damage as it might seem, so in most cases, I would rather take 3 wounds out of terminator and finish it off with tank shock than to inconvenience a super durrable artillery piece.

The last, and most interesting one, is the Deff Ray Wurrtower. It looks like a decent weapon to fire into terminators, but is in reality not as good as average claim. d3 shots, auto-hitting, 3+ to wound, 50% chance to fail saves all are decent numbers. D6 damage averages to 3.5 and looks good on paper. However, the actual chance a shot to damage a deathshroud is 33.33%. Two out of 3 times, it will do nothing. One out of three times, this will be your only shot.
On top of that, deathshroud have 4 wounds, so if you deal damage once, you are not that likely to lose damage to overkill if you remember to shoot this before the stikka. The issue is that if the terminators fail two saves, the most likely outcome is still killing 0-1 terminators. Even at three shots, the most likely outcome is just one dead terminator.
So is worth firing the Wurrtower at deathshrouds? Probably not. It will take a huge chunk out most demon engines, including in PBC, so those should be its priority targets. It's not terrible at killing terminators, but not great either.

Another example would be nobz. During the Waaagh! you get an impressive 49 attacks from a unit lead by a warboss, causing an impressive ~14 unsaved wounds and most likely killing terminators, maybe 2, but very likely not the attached character. Typhus or LOC will then take a heavy toll on your unit before dying in the next round of combat.
Don't try this against Virulent Vectorium(sticky objective detachment) if they have 2CP open. They will half your damage and then murder your unit.
In general S8+ AP-2 2dmg weapons are a good choice against death shrouds. Sadly, orks don't have those in sufficient numbers outside of PKs.

I hope it somewhat makes sense, but these kind of decisions are exactly the reason why people lose against my DG, even when playing armies that should play well into them. People will just point big guns and scary looking melee units at those terminators and assume that this is enough to make them go away. Then their big guns bounce off, their expensive units are exposed without weakening my army in a meaningful way. All I need to do then is to blow up those exposed scary units before they can harm units they are actually good against.

TL;DR: Math is never irrelevant, and I feel like it's more important than ever before. Dice will always do dice things, but you need a proper plan for when things just go normal.

Don't get me wrong, things like unit X being good into unit Y are good things to memorise and act upon. But I find that people get stuck in the weeds with the Mathhammer when playing both with and against Orks and things tend to swing in both directions when Orks are involved.

The maths is solid and it's vital to have that knowledge, but I personally think Orks are more about redundancy than strict calculations. Which ties in to your comment about having a plan for when things go normal. Having that second Kill Rig, or Nobz squad, or squad of Grots, etc.

If that unit can get the job done on its own, fantastic, but if it can't I have the redundancy built in to my strategy and list to brute force the dice into being as close to normal (or better) as I want it to be.

Redundancy is a completely different topic though. The main applications for redundancy is to guarantee that you have a certain tool available when you need it, or when you want to reduce variance for powerful, but unreliable units. That's also math.

The only thing that makes orks special is that when BS5+ units with powerful weapons overperform, they can double or even tripple their average output which can have a huge impact on the game.