Tomsug wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
I don't know if I see the appeal of nob bikers, knowing that squighogs exist.

They're somehow more expensive.

Yes, but move 18” and charge in waaaghand taking Warboss on Warbike / Wartrike with them. Move 20” and charge with the enhancement. And than Consolidate 6”. They can be on the other side of the table in asingle turn.

Squighog boyz do their 10”+D6” = 13,5” ignoring modifiers. Totaly different ammount of movement.

Their CC is in comparison with the Killsaw Nobz different. Nobz are definitely better in killing elite infantry.

Snaggas are T7 W3 4+/5+++, Nobz are T6 W4 4+/6++

They are quite a different unit imho…

2 base killsaw attacks are better than 6 2 damage attacks per model at killing elite infantry? I'm sorry man, I don't think that's true.

Number one, I think you're still going to be better off against any kind of infantry with 3 attacks instead of 2. But the squighogs just have many more attacks. You're talking about 8 damage 2 attacks on waaagh.

I do agree squig riders are better overall especially if against monster/vehicle targets. you are taking warboss on bike 85pts w nobs on bike as he helps them achieve value..

A unit of nob warbikers 125pts vs squigriders 110pts (+75pts for nob on squig)
9x str9 ap-2 2 damage bs3+ vs
9x str5 ap-1 2 damage bs2+ & 9x str6 ap-1 2 damage bs3+ & bomb squig

The damage for bikers is better for toughness 4-5 and 3+ or better save elite infantry types plus it’s better for speed and range damage but that’s thier only niche otherwise Squighogs are better.

Participated in my first 1k 10th tourney.
All missions were the same one with VP for killing enemy units which screwed my gaming plan hard.
I took: wagon with ghaz and 2 manz, 2 trukks with boyz, 2 skrapjets, 10 grots with herd.

1st game was vs csm with 2x5 havoks, 2 oblis, 5 csm and 20 cultists.
Highlights: 2 oblis one-shot a wagon and than killed ghaz on overwatch. Trukks scored, scrapjets killed 1 obliterator with rokkits and dealt a couple mw in mellee finishing the second off with nose drills. Eventually, orks outscored csm but lost too many units and it was a 40-40 draw. Boyz really struggled to kill anything other than cultists and regular csm.

2d game was vs deathwatch with 10 meltas, 10 bolter Marines with 2 hb and a bunch of th+shield termies with characters.
Highlights: meltas killed a trukk and than a skrapjet on overwatch. Ghaz had nothing to do other than finish off the meltas and score a point. Regular Marines with bolters one-shot a trukk thanks to oath of the moment, lethal hits and mw from heavy bolters. Overwatch from regular bolter Marines dropped a skrapjet to 1 wound. Wagon eventually killed regular Marines in mellee cause they were bad at throwing 4+ saves. Th termies one-shot a wagon hitting with just half a squad.
Ended up as a loss cause, once again, orks scored some but lost too many squads quickly.
46-58

3d game was vs our main power-gamer that ran gsc. The main highlight was that he surrounded the wagon with a 3" Deepstrike so that after one-shotting it with his 150 pt unit with no effort at all, ghaz couldn't disembark and was slain. Oh, and a skrapjet was killed on overwatch once again. Orks had 0 chances from the very beginning.

Overall thoughts: we feel very weak compared to what other factions get. Ghaz was useless, everything was squishy and dealt very low damage for points. Was very disappointed with most of our stuff. Let's wait till codex drops.

 koooaei wrote:
Participated in my first 1k 10th tourney.
All missions were the same one with VP for killing enemy units which screwed my gaming plan hard.

Where does one find the rules for these sorts of missions? I have never played a full match (several small friendly patrol-sized matches where we just tried to kill each other, and some killteam) but I'd like to better understand what to expect as i build up my army.

thanks,
Coh

Nob bikers vs Squighog Boyz - the point of my note was, bikers are bloody fast. Squigriders don' t .

If you die before getting into CC, it doesn't matter how many attacks you have.

If you check the attacks etc. only, Squigriders are definitely better.


I' m reading the primary and secodnary mission. What I see:
- absolutely no limits on who do the “actions “ (except one semi-focused on characters).
- a lot of secondaries focused on doing a lot of actions on a lot of places around the table.
- while doing these actions, you cannot charge and shoot.

=> you need some units dedicated to play these missions. Requirements? Cheap, Fast, Cheap, Hard to kill, cheap, cheap.

Our second cheapest unit is Trukk with 12” T8 W10 with auto repair every turn for unbelievable 50p.

If I understand it right, Trukks can do these actions. They can score.

So the gameplan =
- take a lot of Trukks. You can have a trukk+5 lootas for 105! Or stormboyz for 115p. To keep it cheap.
- have the main body of your army that deals damage based on Vehicles/Monsters.
- kill all of the enemy antitank

= oversaturation of one type of target and paralising of the enemy ability to kill your scoring trukks.
= disadventage is, that you sacrifice Bring it down. This makes you to keep down the number of CHARACTERS you take, because Assasination scores 4VP for every Character = you cannot sacrifice 2 secondaries.

Can we live with just 2 characters?
Can we make a scoring list with just the tough vehicles?

I' m not sure…

You can’t drop Characters our entire army is based on it.

This is the best list I can build. You are giving up assasinate no matter what even if they only clear half the characters but bring it down isn’t bad Only 6 vehicles (4 of which are trukks).
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/810418.page

It' s actualy pretty crazy.

Any army gives up Assasinate.
And with the trucks 4 trucks and 2 mekgunz you give up 14VP on Bring it down.

I don' t see anything stopping anybody to take both.
As I understand it, it is about leaders everywhere. So “give up Assasinate” is valid for everybody and “give up bring it down” for the half of the armies…
It seems we basicly cannot play Vehicles in bigger scale…

 Tomsug wrote:

Is there a chance GW add the FW units in his new app or is my wish totaly out of this world?

they said they will soon

Not sure must go here: the warboss on warbike hit with the PK 3+ and the Killsaw at 4+? every other istance in the codex both weapons hit with the same skill. Errata? Mistake?

Just going to complain about this for a minute.

The new unit sizes is PISSING ME OFF!

I now have more than 2x the amount of stormboyz i'm allowed. I have 2x more bikers than I'm allowed. I have HUNDREDS more boyz than I am allowed.

Getting a bit upset with GW arbitrarily deciding to cut unit sizes dramatically. I'm really hoping they change some of this in the actual codex but I doubt it.

As far as unit power goes? I'll reserve judgement until i get a few games in, but my initial feeling is that we aren't durable enough and our dmg output got nerfed.

 Tomsug wrote:
It' s actualy pretty crazy.

Any army gives up Assasinate.
And with the trucks 4 trucks and 2 mekgunz you give up 14VP on Bring it down.

I don' t see anything stopping anybody to take both.
As I understand it, it is about leaders everywhere. So “give up Assasinate” is valid for everybody and “give up bring it down” for the half of the armies…
It seems we basicly cannot play Vehicles in bigger scale…

I mean they have to work for assassinate since it requires wiping out nearly the whole ablative wound unit, but it’s a given and regarding vehicles i contemplated dropping 1 trukk and turning 2 trukks into big trakks just to make getting bring it down a pain to score but that means I’ll need to put flashgitz into reserves. Which to be fair isn’t bad but bigtrakks aren’t going to have full transport and supa kannons for long.

SemperMortis wrote:
Just going to complain about this for a minute.

The new unit sizes is PISSING ME OFF!

I now have more than 2x the amount of stormboyz i'm allowed. I have 2x more bikers than I'm allowed. I have HUNDREDS more boyz than I am allowed.

Getting a bit upset with GW arbitrarily deciding to cut unit sizes dramatically. I'm really hoping they change some of this in the actual codex but I doubt it.

As far as unit power goes? I'll reserve judgement until i get a few games in, but my initial feeling is that we aren't durable enough and our dmg output got nerfed.

I think we’re quite a bit more durable than last edition. I ran a squad of 20 boys w/ painboy and popped -1 to wound in the center obj and it took my opponent shooting 40 necron warrriors in double tap range and doomsday ark to kill basically 12 dudes.

Power level wise I’d say we’re low high tier or top of mid tier assuming your running trukk spam. I’ve played 4-5 games with them so far and won them all fairly comfortably but the games I spammed trukks were definitely the easy wins. They’re by far our best datasheet. For competitive games I just auto bring 5-6 and just spam beastbosses and warbosses with beast snaggas, boys/nobs in them cause they’re cheap and hit hard on waaagh turn. So far I’ve had them against the ultra tough necron lychguard, custodes allarus termies w/ shield captain, gk paladins, and deathwing and they came out on top in all of them. The deathwing player was new so didn’t really know the proper combo with them so that was has an asterisk, but the point is we do still hit quite hard if your hitting with your full trukk army at once.

I’ll be trying out the garg squig in my next game with 20 burna boys inside. Heard from some fellow ork players that have run it that it’s basically unkillable with ard as nails (outside armies that can spam mw) and I feel 20 burna boys over watching inside would be pretty hilarious and potentially really strong.

I attended a small tournament where i got 3 games in (Genestealers, Thousand sons and sisters of battle) (we were only like 10 people though) and i won 1 battle out of 3. Although i should have won the last battle against sisters as i was dominant, but i sadly messed up by the end, and i also suspect my enemy might have made a little cheatsy. I suspect he didnt roll 2 random tactical missions but simply picked them off his app, which, coincidentially meant he could get storm an objective, and the objective where he had to take my objective in my DZ, when he was right next to it. But sure what ever.

Apparently though the leader of a flaggelant unit deals damage 3 which i didnt know so i tried to tie up 2 flaggelants and their leader from moving with a trukk. I should have just move blocked instead and i would have instantly won, instead the damage 3 attacks just shredded my trukk lol. Which opened up for him being able to get to my objective in my DZ.

Also, i ran a gargantuan Squiggoth. I always had 2x10 Snagga boys in the squig and my 10 flash gitz in reserve, with my 2x nobz with warbosses in the trukk.


The quick notes of what did well and what did not:
The Flash Gitz absolutely melt anything they touch. Well maybe not vehicles after you have used your ammo runt, but be it overwatch or regular shooting, everything just dies. In all battles they came in from reserve, and in all rounds where it made sense, they deleted an enemy with overwatch fire. In two of my battles they survived all rounds. They died around round 2 or 3 against the gene stealers but against Thousand sons, they killed 10 rubric marines + Ahriman, a Vortex Beast, a character thingie + i believe 5 terminators. Against Sisters of battle they deleted 1 unit in every single round. In fact in the turn they came in from reserve, they deleted 2x5 melta retributor thingies, then a unit of 10 zeraphims, then celestine, TWICE (lol) and something else i cant remember.

Beastboss on squiggosaur is.... well.. eeeh.. I mean he is okay, i DID pay for a kill choppa and all so he was like 185 or something or what ever his price is with that weapon but to be fair, i didnt fight a lot of vehicles or monsters. He whiffed a decent amount of attacks and hes only really like strength 6 or so without the waagh. He is tanky, ill give you that, but his damage was kinda meh. Why the squig mouth suddenly needs to hit on 4s i dont understand. He is okay, he is probably worth the points, but i would 100% rather spend the points on Mozrog.

Gargantuan Squiggoth did.. Surprisingly well. Throw a slick -1 to wound on it and most of my opponents were like: oh feth me" although i did tell them about it before hand. In my last battle my opponent didnt even bother attacking it untill like turn 3. Against genestealers it was alive till turn 3, against thousand sons it died turn 2 to Magnus, but for 2CP i was fighting on death, killing magnus in return. The only reason it even died was because when magnus charged my squig turn 1 and whiffed, i, in return ALSO whiffed massively so it went to ongoing combat. Against sisters of battle, it werent even injured untill turn 3 when it was sitting on the middle objective. The fact it has toughness 13 and then get -1 to wound really puts most people off from even wanting to deal with it. Against the sisters, he didnt even bother shooting his meltas at my Squiggoth because he would wound on 6s lol Also the biggest lol was against Thousand Sons where my squiggoth died to magnus (and killed magnus too) but exploded, dealing 2D6 in to my own backline. Oh god the carnage it caused..! i lost 3 squighogs and like 12-14 beastsnagga boys total. But that rule where you cant stand on an objective? Is the stupidest thing i have ever fething seen and heard of. It needs to be rid of in this game.

Squighog Boys To be fair, im not sure how much i like these. they were decently tanky at toughness 7 and a 5+++ but most my opponents didnt have vehicles or monsters, and thinking back, i forgot to give myself +1 to wound a couple of times when i charged and didnt attack vehicles or monsters, but even then. They arent bad, but in my list, i probably needed more anti infantry power. Their own killing power was lowered significantly as well, only AP1 on its attacks, squig jaws hitting on 4s and arent anti monster or vehicle. So only really 4 of your attacks are really useful on a waaagh turn versus monsters or vehicles. The squig mouthes are going to whiff against what you really want to attack. Surely a Nob on Smasha squig would have been amazing here, but im not sure where i should have gotten the points from.
out of maybe 6 squig bombs thrown during all my games, i failed maybe 4 lol. Thats just bad rolling, the squig bombs are still good though.

Nobz with powerklaws and a warboss Very good unit id say. The +1 to hit and -1 to wound really helps these dudes out. I gave follow me ladz to one of the units, and fallback and charge on the other (simply because i had few points left). In the future ill remove fallback and charge and simply buy Mozrog instead of a beastboss lol. Anyway, sure they still die in the end when being attacked but the enemy has to use considerably more power to do so. And their powerklaws are still decent weapons, wounding many smaller things on 2 and 3s. Against sisters, they ran up to Morhven val (Morgan freeman, what ever her name is) and used epic combat (MORTAL KOMBAT!) and squished her good. the +4 attacks +1 from waagh on a warboss is really good to pump up those rookie numbers. AT first i debated using a 10 man unit, but i feel like a 5 man unit is really the good spot because you can run in two different directions.

Beastsnagga boys did well without the beastboss, nothing to complain about.

Grots remain great at holding objectives. the extra CP they give is insanely invaluable, especially if you intend to overwatch everytime the enemy moves with flash gitz.

 flaming tadpole wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Just going to complain about this for a minute.

The new unit sizes is PISSING ME OFF!

I now have more than 2x the amount of stormboyz i'm allowed. I have 2x more bikers than I'm allowed. I have HUNDREDS more boyz than I am allowed.

Getting a bit upset with GW arbitrarily deciding to cut unit sizes dramatically. I'm really hoping they change some of this in the actual codex but I doubt it.

As far as unit power goes? I'll reserve judgement until i get a few games in, but my initial feeling is that we aren't durable enough and our dmg output got nerfed.

I think we’re quite a bit more durable than last edition. I ran a squad of 20 boys w/ painboy and popped -1 to wound in the center obj and it took my opponent shooting 40 necron warrriors in double tap range and doomsday ark to kill basically 12 dudes.

Power level wise I’d say we’re low high tier or top of mid tier assuming your running trukk spam. I’ve played 4-5 games with them so far and won them all fairly comfortably but the games I spammed trukks were definitely the easy wins. They’re by far our best datasheet. For competitive games I just auto bring 5-6 and just spam beastbosses and warbosses with beast snaggas, boys/nobs in them cause they’re cheap and hit hard on waaagh turn. So far I’ve had them against the ultra tough necron lychguard, custodes allarus termies w/ shield captain, gk paladins, and deathwing and they came out on top in all of them. The deathwing player was new so didn’t really know the proper combo with them so that was has an asterisk, but the point is we do still hit quite hard if your hitting with your full trukk army at once.

I’ll be trying out the garg squig in my next game with 20 burna boys inside. Heard from some fellow ork players that have run it that it’s basically unkillable with ard as nails (outside armies that can spam mw) and I feel 20 burna boys over watching inside would be pretty hilarious and potentially really strong.

Has gargant some extra rule that allows overwatch? Firing deck only applies in own shooting phase so overwatch not usable

tneva82 wrote:


Has gargant some extra rule that allows overwatch? Firing deck only applies in own shooting phase so overwatch not usable

You are correct good sir. Overwatch specifically states the shooting phase. As raw, the transports cannot shoot the weapons of it's occupants outside that phase, and it has no rules specifying otherwise... I suspect this is one of the many oversights from GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is a silver lining though of the interaction between towering and firing deck.

eh, i could see it being intended since theyve denied embarked units firing overwatch for quite awhile now.
And even though firing deck "technically" is the transport firing, thematically its still the unit embarked.

Good point, I saw the ao40k guys talking about doing it so assumed they knew, but looking at raw looks like it's a no go. Probably for the best since overwatch is already pretty op.

gungo wrote:
I do agree squig riders are better overall especially if against monster/vehicle targets. you are taking warboss on bike 85pts w nobs on bike as he helps them achieve value..

A unit of nob warbikers 125pts vs squigriders 110pts (+75pts for nob on squig)
9x str9 ap-2 2 damage bs3+ vs
9x str5 ap-1 2 damage bs2+ & 9x str6 ap-1 2 damage bs3+ & bomb squig

The damage for bikers is better for toughness 4-5 and 3+ or better save elite infantry types plus it’s better for speed and range damage but that’s thier only niche otherwise Squighogs are better.

Squighogs should be dealing more damage against T4 3+ save.

Where are you getting that they aren't?

They have twice as many D2 attacks. Just run the math real quick.

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Good point, I saw the ao40k guys talking about doing it so assumed they knew, but looking at raw looks like it's a no go. Probably for the best since overwatch is already pretty op.

Yeah that's why i'm hoping it's intentional. Overwatch is already good so some limit is welcome.

Tricky limit to spot though. Very easy to miss.

You are right squig riders are better at all targets in melee. Bikes just have a bit more speed.

tneva82 wrote:

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Good point, I saw the ao40k guys talking about doing it so assumed they knew, but looking at raw looks like it's a no go. Probably for the best since overwatch is already pretty op.

Yeah that's why i'm hoping it's intentional. Overwatch is already good so some limit is welcome.

Tricky limit to spot though. Very easy to miss.

Overwatch is ' shoot as if it is your shooting phase'. Whats the reason a transport cannot shoot firing deck with overwatch?

shogun wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Good point, I saw the ao40k guys talking about doing it so assumed they knew, but looking at raw looks like it's a no go. Probably for the best since overwatch is already pretty op.

Yeah that's why i'm hoping it's intentional. Overwatch is already good so some limit is welcome.

Tricky limit to spot though. Very easy to miss.

Overwatch is ' shoot as if it is your shooting phase'. Whats the reason a transport cannot shoot firing deck with overwatch?

Out of phase actrons likb overwatch can't use otherrules triggered in phase. Check the ruls commentary which has section on those(and even uses overwatch as example of out of phase action)

i still think firing deck works in overwatch. as firing deck is triggered when as unit shoots (step 1 of "when a units shoots" page 15 core rulebook)

there is a whole YMDC thread about it.

i dont get the difference between making ranged attacks (step 3) and selecting a model to shoot (step 1) both happen while "a unit shoots"

the commentary about out of phase rules is about abilities that trigger outside of "when a unit shoots", like the example given with the bombardment wich triggers AFTER a unit has shot

but i guess a FAQ is needed. for me its pretty clear, for other not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i am pretty stumped that the lil squigoth has lost his howda rule... its now basically a ceaper BW with no -1ap rule, fewer guns and only 10 transport cap. if you really need 35 points for something use the squigoth, if you have the points a BW will always be the better choice

I got some games of 10th in now, here are my thoughts:

- This is not a boyz' edition. They are more durable than before thanks to 5+ armor and near omni-present cover, but everyone else got more durable as well making choppas mediocre at best and shootas worse. I haven't tried the weirdboy yet, but for other leaders it feels like a lot of effort and points invested just to then obliterated by units with a bunch of d3 blast weapons.
- Nobz are awesome, what a time to be playing orks. With their permanent 'ard as nails they are surprisingly durable and with the +1 to hit buff from the warboss they can reliably threaten even vehicles. It took 3 klaws and 2 big choppas for a bit of extra anti-horde capability, I didn't regret it.
- We need to change our perception of the warboss. He can no longer solo-kill tanks, monsters or heavy infantry, but he is extremely efficient at killing pretty much everything else.
- I feel like the killchoppa ist wasted on a warboss, it probably should be reserved for beastsnagga characters for killing monsters.
- Follow me ladz' is my new favorite enhancement. Having a warboss and nobz move 8"+d6 and charge during a Waaagh! to sprint out from cover onto an objective and murder everyone there is great. Throw in 'ere we go and watch them run faster than actual nob bikers
- To my own surprise warbikers lead by a wartrike didn't suck. Despite their +1 to hit in melee, they just barely managed to kill units of GEQ with leader, but their shooting is the real deal. I popped overwatch on them whenever I could, and especially the AP-2 flamer on the wartrike did gork's work. The extra speed allowed me to keep them out of sight and range of dangerous guns, and the wartrike's big base allows for some funky engagement range shenanigans with just the trike touching the enemy and the bikes all touching the wartrike like leaves. This allowed all of them to fight even in bottleneck situations.
- In general, getting most of your unit to bear is much easier than I though it would be, except for large mobs of boyz I never had more than one or two model in the fight that would have been in engagement range in 9th.
- Squighog riders are great. Super durable, and all those attacks that make nob on smasha squig feel like overkill. Anything they touched just died, and any attempts to harm them were foiled by 'ard as nails, often reducing the attacker to wounding on sixes. Bomb squigs are just the icing on the cake, and my favorite application of them is blowing up lone operatives. Very much felt like running 5th edition nob bikers again.
- Beastboss on Squigosaur, well... all my opponents were terrified of him which led to him dying before he could touch anything every single game. He always did die close to the end of a shooting phase though, once he even lasted till turn 2. I guess having your opponent skip their first shooting phase for 165 points isn't terrible.
- Scrapjet wasn't bad, though I wonder why the big shoota was reduced to 18"... might as well scratched it off completely. The 2+d6 rokkits is nice though and I actually managed to kill a vehicle with it. It then died to actual anti-tank guns as if it were paper. So not bad, but not good either. I did not get to use the nose drill.
- Kanz were great. No, I'm being serious. During your shooting phase, three rokkits hitting on 4+ with blast and ignore cover did a lot better than I though it would. However, there is more - using them to shoot overwatch at units of 10 or more is suprisingly effective, plus they are good targets for heroic intervention - having three additional muder-bots in combat throws off the math for pretty much any combat.
- Big Mek with MA and KFF is super expensive, but also super durable. I'm not sure what the right number of MANz is though. 3 seems like enough in most cases, except when you roll bad or your opponent has hot dice and kills all 3 in one turn. 5 feels like overdoing it, and it's not like they will suddenly start killing stuff they couldn't before because they have three additional models.
- I though burna boys would be the new hot thing with overwatch essentially doubling their shooting. It's not. Without AP, S4 simply doesn't gut it.
- I love that the KMB is 3 shots flat now. They are genuinely good guns now.
- Kombi-shootas are super bad and should never, ever be taken instead of an alternative, including slugga and choppa.
- Koptas aren't as good as they seem? They have gone back to their original role as flanking unit which takes pot-shots, but can't really kill anything on their own. The bomb is nice, but very situational and almost always leads to their death immediately afterwards. Like most of the speed freeks it feels like they are waiting for a dedicated detachment that makes them click together into a viable army.
- Gretchin are mandatory, at least one unit per army. Even the basic stratagems like overwatch, grenades, heroic intervention or epic challenge can decide a game if used in the right situation. With stratagems that powerful you are hard-pressed to justify spending those 45-90 points elsewhere.
- 'ard as nails is by far the best stratagem orks have had so far. I use it almost every turn and rarely regret it.

 Jidmah wrote:
I got some games of 10th in now, here are my thoughts:

- This is not a boyz' edition. They are more durable than before thanks to 5+ armor and near omni-present cover, but everyone else got more durable as well making choppas mediocre at best and shootas worse. I haven't tried the weirdboy yet, but for other leaders it feels like a lot of effort and points invested just to then obliterated by units with a bunch of d3 blast weapons.
- Nobz are awesome, what a time to be playing orks. With their permanent 'ard as nails they are surprisingly durable and with the +1 to hit buff from the warboss they can reliably threaten even vehicles. It took 3 klaws and 2 big choppas for a bit of extra anti-horde capability, I didn't regret it.
- We need to change our perception of the warboss. He can no longer solo-kill tanks, monsters or heavy infantry, but he is extremely efficient at killing pretty much everything else.
- I feel like the killchoppa ist wasted on a warboss, it probably should be reserved for beastsnagga characters for killing monsters.
- Follow me ladz' is my new favorite enhancement. Having a warboss and nobz move 8"+d6 and charge during a Waaagh! to sprint out from cover onto an objective and murder everyone there is great. Throw in 'ere we go and watch them run faster than actual nob bikers
- To my own surprise warbikers lead by a wartrike didn't suck. Despite their +1 to hit in melee, they just barely managed to kill units of GEQ with leader, but their shooting is the real deal. I popped overwatch on them whenever I could, and especially the AP-2 flamer on the wartrike did gork's work. The extra speed allowed me to keep them out of sight and range of dangerous guns, and the wartrike's big base allows for some funky engagement range shenanigans with just the trike touching the enemy and the bikes all touching the wartrike like leaves. This allowed all of them to fight even in bottleneck situations.
- In general, getting most of your unit to bear is much easier than I though it would be, except for large mobs of boyz I never had more than one or two model in the fight that would have been in engagement range in 9th.
- Squighog riders are great. Super durable, and all those attacks that make nob on smasha squig feel like overkill. Anything they touched just died, and any attempts to harm them were foiled by 'ard as nails, often reducing the attacker to wounding on sixes. Bomb squigs are just the icing on the cake, and my favorite application of them is blowing up lone operatives. Very much felt like running 5th edition nob bikers again.
- Beastboss on Squigosaur, well... all my opponents were terrified of him which led to him dying before he could touch anything every single game. He always did die close to the end of a shooting phase though, once he even lasted till turn 2. I guess having your opponent skip their first shooting phase for 165 points isn't terrible.
- Scrapjet wasn't bad, though I wonder why the big shoota was reduced to 18"... might as well scratched it off completely. The 2+d6 rokkits is nice though and I actually managed to kill a vehicle with it. It then died to actual anti-tank guns as if it were paper. So not bad, but not good either. I did not get to use the nose drill.
- Kanz were great. No, I'm being serious. During your shooting phase, three rokkits hitting on 4+ with blast and ignore cover did a lot better than I though it would. However, there is more - using them to shoot overwatch at units of 10 or more is suprisingly effective, plus they are good targets for heroic intervention - having three additional muder-bots in combat throws off the math for pretty much any combat.
- Big Mek with MA and KFF is super expensive, but also super durable. I'm not sure what the right number of MANz is though. 3 seems like enough in most cases, except when you roll bad or your opponent has hot dice and kills all 3 in one turn. 5 feels like overdoing it, and it's not like they will suddenly start killing stuff they couldn't before because they have three additional models.
- I though burna boys would be the new hot thing with overwatch essentially doubling their shooting. It's not. Without AP, S4 simply doesn't gut it.
- I love that the KMB is 3 shots flat now. They are genuinely good guns now.
- Kombi-shootas are super bad and should never, ever be taken instead of an alternative, including slugga and choppa.
- Koptas aren't as good as they seem? They have gone back to their original role as flanking unit which takes pot-shots, but can't really kill anything on their own. The bomb is nice, but very situational and almost always leads to their death immediately afterwards. Like most of the speed freeks it feels like they are waiting for a dedicated detachment that makes them click together into a viable army.
- Gretchin are mandatory, at least one unit per army. Even the basic stratagems like overwatch, grenades, heroic intervention or epic challenge can decide a game if used in the right situation. With stratagems that powerful you are hard-pressed to justify spending those 45-90 points elsewhere.
- 'ard as nails is by far the best stratagem orks have had so far. I use it almost every turn and rarely regret it.

Definitely agree with your assessment of boyz sadly. I tried decking them out with Warbosses and Painboyz/WAAAGH! banners and while they can feel tanky against certain units, they still melt under dedicated fire (especially blast weapons) and there's a lot more precision weapons than I remember there being, it doesn't actually take that much to kill your defensive characters which then exposes your unit to be even more vulnerable to shooting.

Any thoughts on Beast Snagga Boyz? I'm 50/50 on having using 10 man squads of them since it feels like they have more indepedence than boyz units and are better suited for Trukks.

Also my experience my latest game so far:

- Meganobz with Twin Killsaws just have too few attacks, even with a Megaboss attached they simply put out too little damage and if it's not a WAAAGH! turn they basically just kind of sit there. Power Klaws or go home IMO, I'm tempted to try out a Megamek with KFF with them just to make them tankier/be more of an anvil unit rather than a hammer, since Nobz seem to do that job better.

- Flash Gitz+Kaptin Badrukk rock like everyone else has said so far. Put in em in Strategic Reserves and watch them blow off a unit when they get set up on the board.

- Mek Gunz are just okay, though the change to hazardous is actually kind of annoying since it only takes a few bad rolls of 1's to start killing models a lot faster than in the past since now it's a flat 3 mortal wounds. With cover being everywhere I feel like the lack of AP really hurts as I was trying to kill a unit of Deathmarks in cover with a full squad of KMK with a Big Mek and SAG attached to it with good blast bonuses and I basically couldn't kill the unit the entire game and gave up shooting at them. Granted the Necrons feel way tougher this edition and my opponent rolled like hot cakes but I feel like their lack of mobility hurts them in getting ideal targets.

Is the general consensus for using Nobz a unit of 10 in a Trukk with Warboss?

 Grimskul wrote:
Definitely agree with your assessment of boyz sadly. I tried decking them out with Warbosses and Painboyz/WAAAGH! banners and while they can feel tanky against certain units, they still melt under dedicated fire (especially blast weapons) and there's a lot more precision weapons than I remember there being, it doesn't actually take that much to kill your defensive characters which then exposes your unit to be even more vulnerable to shooting.

When playing against GSC and marines with eliminators I just popped 'ard as nails every time their sniper units tried to snipe one of my characters. This makes most sniper rifles wound on 5s or 6s, usually dragging out the inevitable long enough to get value out of my leaders.

Any thoughts on Beast Snagga Boyz? I'm 50/50 on having using 10 man squads of them since it feels like they have more indepedence than boyz units and are better suited for Trukks.

My thoughts on beast snagga boyz is that I dread building the five units of them which make up the only pile of shame that I have. I really hated building kommandoz, and their bits seem to be arranged in a similarly chaotic manner.

In 9th I proxied my 'ard boyz as snaggas, in 10th I haven't played them yet. My experience with choppa boyz is mixed, beastsnaggas might be good enough, but they might also not be.

My current plan is finishing my flash gits and a second SJD. I've seen necron murder-balls played on the table next to me, and I absolutely want to be able to snipe characters.


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 Grimskul wrote:
Is the general consensus for using Nobz a unit of 10 in a Trukk with Warboss?

I don't see any advantage of using a truck over getting Follow Me, using 'ere we go or putting them into stratagic reserves. In addition, I'd rather use two units of 5 with a warboss each than one unit of 10. There also are precious few problems that 20 PK attacks can't solve, but are magically solved adding another 15 attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Combining my experiences with what I've read here, my planned list looks something like this:

So far I've been leaning into a durability list and have had some solid success, including against some of the real 'boogeymen' of the edition.

My general list setup has been to use a few defensive 'anvil' units, a few offensive 'hammer' units (that aren't half bad at tanking, but just arent *as* efficient) and then a few utility pieces like mek gunz to increase my ability to clear transports and kommandos to deny overwatch and provide some early pressure.

The general TAC list I've been iterating on:

(Rokkits whenever a rokkit is an option, power klaws whenever a melee option is present, all free upgrades on everything obviously)

Megaboss+6 MANZ in an 'ard case battlewagon with Follow Me Lads

Nobz + warboss in a trukk

2x20 Boyz with Painboy in each

22x gretchins with zodgrod

3x1 KMK's

2x10 Kommandos

1x Kustom Boosta Blasta

this list has been successful into chaos knights (mix of Towering guys and armigers with double RFBC knight, the T13 knight tyrant with the harpoon and big flamer and a couple of the minigun+claw wardogs) and space marines with desolators and the new burna boy copycat marines, and all GD daemons.

There are a few units out there that are indeed just fully fethed up and should not cost what they cost, but also not everybody is going to be planning for an ork tide when they make a TAC list. The horde setup with tons of durable OC and a few big nasty piece removal hammers really heavily counters the 'few big vehicle' list setup as well as performing well into people who prepare for a lot of heavy vehicle opposition.


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I will say with the objective securing boyz squads I'm heavily on the fence about whether I want to have character support at all at the end of the day. The main reason I stick in the painboyz is that 'being more durable than my opponent expects' has proven to be highly highly useful.

Like, in my game against the space marines with the desolators, he declared one of my 20-blocks as the target for his Oaths, but didnt actually move most of his units into LOS of the unit because he was just like "every desolator is getting +4 blast shots, that squad is just going to cease to be" and thanks to the dok, even with the oaths rerolls he took down a little over half. Squads of 20 boyz on their own are probably a hair more mathematically efficient because just more bodies but I like the concentration of durability that the dok gives you.

Forceride wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Has gargant some extra rule that allows overwatch? Firing deck only applies in own shooting phase so overwatch not usable

You are correct good sir. Overwatch specifically states the shooting phase. As raw, the transports cannot shoot the weapons of it's occupants outside that phase, and it has no rules specifying otherwise... I suspect this is one of the many oversights from GW.


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There is a silver lining though of the interaction between towering and firing deck.

Firing deck says "selected to shoot in the shooting phase" and the bullet point quick ref says "whenever this transport is selected to shoot"

overwatch says "your unit can shoot that enemy as if it were your shooting phase"


i see no conflict here - your firing deck vehicle works in overwatch because its shooting as if it were your shooting phase.

terennNash wrote:

Forceride wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Has gargant some extra rule that allows overwatch? Firing deck only applies in own shooting phase so overwatch not usable

You are correct good sir. Overwatch specifically states the shooting phase. As raw, the transports cannot shoot the weapons of it's occupants outside that phase, and it has no rules specifying otherwise... I suspect this is one of the many oversights from GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is a silver lining though of the interaction between towering and firing deck.

Firing deck says "selected to shoot in the shooting phase" and the bullet point quick ref says "whenever this transport is selected to shoot"

overwatch says "your unit can shoot that enemy as if it were your shooting phase"


i see no conflict here - your firing deck vehicle works in overwatch because its shooting as if it were your shooting phase.

Because firing deck says "in the shooting phase" and overwatch is triggered in the movement phase or the charge phase, I believe it falls under the out of phase rules.

I understand that the example they use in the text is a whirlwinds ability that says "in YOUR shooting phase" but the commentary text is very clear

"When using out-of-phase rules to
perform an action as if it were one of your phases, you cannot use
any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase"

Data from the first week of tourneys!

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/14jb1hj/meta_monday_62623_first_gts_and_rtts_of_10th/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Orks having a pretty strong showing with the 7th best win rate in GT’s at 53%. One of our toughest matchups in knights unfortunately seems to be dominating right now too. Garg squig maybe will be the answer we need to help in that matchup?

With as much crying about towering as there currently is all over the competitive scene, I doubt knights will remain a problem for long. In any case, Mozrog seems like a decent response to them.

 the_scotsman wrote:

Because firing deck says "in the shooting phase" and overwatch is triggered in the movement phase or the charge phase, I believe it falls under the out of phase rules.

I understand that the example they use in the text is a whirlwinds ability that says "in YOUR shooting phase" but the commentary text is very clear

"When using out-of-phase rules to
perform an action as if it were one of your phases, you cannot use
any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase"

so... also no abilities that require you to do ranged attacks?! because those can also only happen in YOUR shooting phase.

like i said before. there are abilities that trigger outside of when a unit shoots (like whirlwinds bombardment) THOSE are prohibited by the out of phase rules. firing deck triggers when a unit shoots.

tbh my response to going up against knights would just be "OK - I'm gonna probably aim to debuff and kill whatever the one biggest blastiest thing is and then just fight you on objectives for everything else."

IDK, are they typically taking enough towering models with strong anti-tank that they could successfully bring down a battlewagon before it could deliver its cargo?

There are other matchups I'd think would be way less winnable for us. 3 basilisks+3 earthshaker carriages with creed and horse boy and a few scout sentinels. SM fuckin rocket boys and whirlwinds.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZQe54he9gw&feature=youtu.be

Nice report of someone coming first at a small tournament. He played the missions and tried to counter the heavy hitter meta.

List in spoilers



Edit: had the wrong number of grot squads

Honestly on the Boyz and MANZ argument i will just say what i been saying, their mostly defensive profiles. Boyz are exelent tarpit anti personnel unit which leans on the defensive. MANZ is not tarpit but leaning on defensive side.

Although i am starting to think that painboy/boss and KFF mek probably should be cheaper given their mostly support characters.

On the overwatch i will sand for what i said, by raw you can't. Still that does not mean it's a F from GW. We will have to wait for a FaQ or something to clear that up.

Waaaghbert wrote:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZQe54he9gw&feature=youtu.be

Nice report of someone coming first at a small tournament. He played the missions and tried to counter the heavy hitter meta.

List in spoilers

Spoiler:

Beastboss
Warboss
3 x 10 beast snaggaz
2 x 10 choppa boyz
6 x 11 gretchin
6 trucks
10 nobz
3 x 3 squighogs
3 x 5 stormboyz
2 x 3 warbikes

He should've been DQd. Grots aren't Battleline & he has 6 units of them.

 the_scotsman wrote:
tbh my response to going up against knights would just be "OK - I'm gonna probably aim to debuff and kill whatever the one biggest blastiest thing is and then just fight you on objectives for everything else."

IDK, are they typically taking enough towering models with strong anti-tank that they could successfully bring down a battlewagon before it could deliver its cargo?

There are other matchups I'd think would be way less winnable for us. 3 basilisks+3 earthshaker carriages with creed and horse boy and a few scout sentinels. SM fuckin rocket boys and whirlwinds.

They can most certainly destroy anything T12 and lower with relative ease. Pretty much every model is gonna be rocking a thermal spear or chaos knight equivalent which is 24" a2 s12 ap4 dmgD6 melta 4, hitting on 2-3's with rerolls. That in addition to other AT weapons isn't gonna struggle much with a bw or anything outside a garg squig with ard as nails.

Outside that our main issue is we can't really do anything to them. Outside the waaagh turn our pk nobs are wounding the little knights on 5+ and beast snaggas on 6's and even the little knights have decent enough combat that they will wittle us down. So the only things that are really going to put a dent in them are our bosses and squigboys. If your playing against a higher level player though mozrog/squigboss are dead 10/10 times before reaching combat followed by the squigboys and they will screen with a few little knights to make your waaagh turn not hit as hard so now your left with a couple warboss and beastbosses that combined will barely kill a little knight per turn.

There are ways you can beat them by bringing tons of fast msu and trying to outscore so heavily in the first 2-3 turns that it's impossible for them to catch up, but that's still not gonna be easy. Outside eldar, who are just broken, they are without question our hardest matchup imo.


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ccs wrote:
He should've been DQd. Grots aren't Battleline & he has 6 units of them.

he only had 3, Just a typo.

what a weird world we live in where Nobz....as in regular Nobz not the MegaNobz variety...are seen as really good.

Whats the complaint about Towering?i dont usually pay attention to tournament scenes.

 flaming tadpole wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
tbh my response to going up against knights would just be "OK - I'm gonna probably aim to debuff and kill whatever the one biggest blastiest thing is and then just fight you on objectives for everything else."

IDK, are they typically taking enough towering models with strong anti-tank that they could successfully bring down a battlewagon before it could deliver its cargo?

There are other matchups I'd think would be way less winnable for us. 3 basilisks+3 earthshaker carriages with creed and horse boy and a few scout sentinels. SM fuckin rocket boys and whirlwinds.

They can most certainly destroy anything T12 and lower with relative ease. Pretty much every model is gonna be rocking a thermal spear or chaos knight equivalent which is 24" a2 s12 ap4 dmgD6 melta 4, hitting on 2-3's with rerolls. That in addition to other AT weapons isn't gonna struggle much with a bw or anything outside a garg squig with ard as nails.

Outside that our main issue is we can't really do anything to them. Outside the waaagh turn our pk nobs are wounding the little knights on 5+ and beast snaggas on 6's and even the little knights have decent enough combat that they will wittle us down. So the only things that are really going to put a dent in them are our bosses and squigboys. If your playing against a higher level player though mozrog/squigboss are dead 10/10 times before reaching combat followed by the squigboys and they will screen with a few little knights to make your waaagh turn not hit as hard so now your left with a couple warboss and beastbosses that combined will barely kill a little knight per turn.

There are ways you can beat them by bringing tons of fast msu and trying to outscore so heavily in the first 2-3 turns that it's impossible for them to catch up, but that's still not gonna be easy. Outside eldar, who are just broken, they are without question our hardest matchup imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs wrote:
He should've been DQd. Grots aren't Battleline & he has 6 units of them.

he only had 3, Just a typo.

Sure - but the thermal spears arent on Towering models, correct? Armigers aren't Towering, just the medium and big knights.

out of curiosity, I decided to take a look through and see what our best units at dealing with T12 3+ and T11 3+ are, and whether there's anything that can really deal with T13 2+.

Best picks for the points looking like:

KMKS - unsurprising result, 3 KMKs for 135pts puts 5w on a non-rotated non-5+FNP knight.

MANz with killsaws+megaboss in a trukk - 310pts, 21.5w vs 6+FNP knight on waagh, 12.5W off waaagh.

2x5 Tankbustas in a trukk - 320pts, 14.3W off-waaagh (requires charging into melee as well as shooting+bomb squig), 18.7 on-waaagh. Weird. Little to recommend them though besides the fact that they still deal about 9 damage if they fail to get the charge off - unfortunate that they are made of absolute glass though.

Mozrog Skragbad - 195pts, 10.4 off-waaagh 12.8 on-waaagh. Huh, less than I thought.

Gargantuan Squiggoth - anything it gets to touch. 35w vs the big knights. Off-waagh.

Gorkanaut - 295pts, 11.5W off-waagh, 16.6 on-waagh (ignoring guns), problem is its a Towering model itself and it doesnt have the squiggoth's unique "OK now wound me on 6s, thermal spears" defensive profile, so its likely to just eat gak and die. I feel like any of the units that hide in trukks have a much better chance of making it and doing something.

Kaptin Badrukk and 10 Flash gitz in a trukk, 335pts - 19.6W independent of waaagh but still only once per game (assuming no heavy bonus).

And, for an added bit of fun, we have THE CHAOS MODE DARK HORSE, 22 gretchins+Zodgrod Wortsnagga - 170pts, assuming absolutely perfect conditions, they pop out, they get all their shots off, then they charge and fight on-waaagh - 6.6 damage to a knight. Hilariously, more effective than most of our nominal anti-tank units.

That's kind of the notables. Squiggoth does decent work, 7W for 150 isnt too inefficient. Magical christmas land lootas (didnt move, within 24", knight is on an objective) deal 10.5.

6 Squighog boyz, 8w for 220.

I would assume best units on knights would be
nob on squig w killchoppa enhancement (leading 6x squigriders and 2x bomb squigs)
Beastboss (probably in a unit of 10x beastsnaggas)
Mozgrod

The combo of 3+/4+ anti vehicle and devastating wounds means a lot of mortals
Mozgrod may not have a devastating wounds on his 4+ anti vehicle but he gains at least +3 damage on titanic vehicles..

Probably a pain to calculate is Bubblechukka or kmk better on knights?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
what a weird world we live in where Nobz....as in regular Nobz not the MegaNobz variety...are seen as really good.

Whats the complaint about Towering?i dont usually pay attention to tournament scenes.

Basically if model isn't physically blocking LOS(like flat out solid wall) towering sees you anywhere. Yes he's seen as well but with the guns they can bear if the terrain is typical ruins with holes/windows they will see anything and shoot them at will.

Non-towering you can hide from being behind ruin. Towering not so. 9e towering didn't see past obscuring so the rule was just negative to them(they could be seen). Now towering works both way.

This can be compensated if you have terrain that actually physically blocks LOS. Towering or not you only ignore the ruins block LOS even if physically visible. But that's not easy for all. Terrain isn't cheapest thing to add in large amounts to gaming clubs etc.

Have played some games in 10th now. Some notes:

-Rapid Ingress. A new tactical tool I´m learning to love. We have a meme on that now: "Nobody expects the Beastnsagga Squighogs!". after dropping them down behind cover and rushing around corners next turn. A-mazingly versatile Strat.
-The surprise Assassin. Painboy is a char killer now. His syringe is Anti infantry 4+ with a D6 MW on top on an Ork with Precision. Perfect bonus for a unit that wants to run up midfield and take the brunt of opponents main assault. Let him Lead 20 Boyz to an objective with Cover near and they will need some dedication to shift.
-Overwatching LootaTrukk. Lootas covering the midfield objectives have ~30% hit rate on OW. 10 onboard a Trukk in Cover is a nice firing nest. Park it sticking out behind a corner of some ruins. Designate a Mek to safeguard it, buff it and It'll annoy the opponent with some unorky accurate fire on a durable platform. Don´t forget the free repair in the Command phase.

- How can you rapid ingress hogBoyz? The strat doesn't give me deep strike?

- also I think consensus is painboyz is MW aren't precision

- agree on the overwatch though

gungo wrote:
I would assume best units on knights would be
nob on squig w killchoppa enhancement (leading 6x squigriders and 2x bomb squigs)
Beastboss (probably in a unit of 10x beastsnaggas)
Mozgrod

The combo of 3+/4+ anti vehicle and devastating wounds means a lot of mortals
Mozgrod may not have a devastating wounds on his 4+ anti vehicle but he gains at least +3 damage on titanic vehicles..

Probably a pain to calculate is Bubblechukka or kmk better on knights?

Squighog Boyz x6 with Nob on Smasha w/eadwhoppas - 315pts, 26.5w vs 6+FNP knight. Yeah, wow, I can't believe I didnt seriously consider those before, that's some output. Unfortunate that you cant really hide them but at least they have FNP 5+ to keep them from being "point RFBCs Here". And unfortunately if you dont have 'eadwhoppas the damage drops off considerably so your second squad will be much less effective - 8 of that damage is just the nob's MWs.

KMK. 2/3 chance right off the bat to not even scratch the paint with a bubblechukka. It does one damage on "average" vs knights but obviously thats super swingy.

I did expect mozrog to be better tbh. It's the fact that the squig wounds on 5s and the guy himself doesnt have the huge hunks of MWs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Scactha wrote:
Have played some games in 10th now. Some notes:

-Rapid Ingress. A new tactical tool I´m learning to love. We have a meme on that now: "Nobody expects the Beastnsagga Squighogs!". after dropping them down behind cover and rushing around corners next turn. A-mazingly versatile Strat.
-The surprise Assassin. Painboy is a char killer now. His syringe is Anti infantry 4+ with a D6 MW on top on an Ork with Precision. Perfect bonus for a unit that wants to run up midfield and take the brunt of opponents main assault. Let him Lead 20 Boyz to an objective with Cover near and they will need some dedication to shift.
-Overwatching LootaTrukk. Lootas covering the midfield objectives have ~30% hit rate on OW. 10 onboard a Trukk in Cover is a nice firing nest. Park it sticking out behind a corner of some ruins. Designate a Mek to safeguard it, buff it and It'll annoy the opponent with some unorky accurate fire on a durable platform. Don´t forget the free repair in the Command phase.

Huh. Yknow, lootas in a trukk was not something I really considered because they dont get Dats Our Loot, but the output's not awful. Being within 24" of your target and using a mek for +1 to hit is the equivalent of being outside 24" and having your full to-hit reroll, roughly. kills 3-4 marine bodies for 200pts and is pretty safe.

...man, the fact that I've been sort of defaulting to beast snagga boyz mentally for Trukk Boyz duty but you can have Lootas for the exact same points cost is pretty wild.

Still overall I think burna boyz work out better. Approximately the same output versus marines, but they dont care about cover, overwatch even better, and they can just scoop up GEQ squads.

Got in a couple games against Tau this weekend. Games were basic, primary objectives only. 2k Points.
Lists were made before the FW update dropped and we decided not to change them.

Lists:


Game Highlights :


TL;DR
-Beastbosses bring the business
-Mek gunz good, both at shooting and at being shot.
-Trukks seem Tough Enough. Was really happy with how they did, but also I really want to try out Big Trakks now.
-Everything in general seemed tougher (on both sides). Felt like a lot of "5s to wound" was happening.
-Your list has to be really tight to not find a reason to take at least one minimum grot squad.
-I didn't have a ton of them, but PKs only felt just ok.
-I think our ability to flood No Mans Land objectives and stay there will be one of our big strengths.
-Overall the games ran smoothly. Didn't have to consult the BRB too often. I was a dumbass and forgot about the melee sustained hits 75% of the time

 the_scotsman wrote:

gungo wrote:
I would assume best units on knights would be
nob on squig w killchoppa enhancement (leading 6x squigriders and 2x bomb squigs)
Beastboss (probably in a unit of 10x beastsnaggas)
Mozgrod

The combo of 3+/4+ anti vehicle and devastating wounds means a lot of mortals
Mozgrod may not have a devastating wounds on his 4+ anti vehicle but he gains at least +3 damage on titanic vehicles..

Probably a pain to calculate is Bubblechukka or kmk better on knights?

Squighog Boyz x6 with Nob on Smasha w/eadwhoppas - 315pts, 26.5w vs 6+FNP knight. Yeah, wow, I can't believe I didnt seriously consider those before, that's some output. Unfortunate that you cant really hide them but at least they have FNP 5+ to keep them from being "point RFBCs Here". And unfortunately if you dont have 'eadwhoppas the damage drops off considerably so your second squad will be much less effective - 8 of that damage is just the nob's MWs.

KMK. 2/3 chance right off the bat to not even scratch the paint with a bubblechukka. It does one damage on "average" vs knights but obviously thats super swingy.

I did expect mozrog to be better tbh. It's the fact that the squig wounds on 5s and the guy himself doesnt have the huge hunks of MWs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Scactha wrote:
Have played some games in 10th now. Some notes:

-Rapid Ingress. A new tactical tool I´m learning to love. We have a meme on that now: "Nobody expects the Beastnsagga Squighogs!". after dropping them down behind cover and rushing around corners next turn. A-mazingly versatile Strat.
-The surprise Assassin. Painboy is a char killer now. His syringe is Anti infantry 4+ with a D6 MW on top on an Ork with Precision. Perfect bonus for a unit that wants to run up midfield and take the brunt of opponents main assault. Let him Lead 20 Boyz to an objective with Cover near and they will need some dedication to shift.
-Overwatching LootaTrukk. Lootas covering the midfield objectives have ~30% hit rate on OW. 10 onboard a Trukk in Cover is a nice firing nest. Park it sticking out behind a corner of some ruins. Designate a Mek to safeguard it, buff it and It'll annoy the opponent with some unorky accurate fire on a durable platform. Don´t forget the free repair in the Command phase.

Huh. Yknow, lootas in a trukk was not something I really considered because they dont get Dats Our Loot, but the output's not awful. Being within 24" of your target and using a mek for +1 to hit is the equivalent of being outside 24" and having your full to-hit reroll, roughly. kills 3-4 marine bodies for 200pts and is pretty safe.

...man, the fact that I've been sort of defaulting to beast snagga boyz mentally for Trukk Boyz duty but you can have Lootas for the exact same points cost is pretty wild.

Still overall I think burna boyz work out better. Approximately the same output versus marines, but they dont care about cover, overwatch even better, and they can just scoop up GEQ squads.

For mozgrod the squig does wound on 5s however due to mozgrod ability on charge those are critical wounds and thus with devastating wounds they are mortal wounds that also have +3 damage due to his other ability.

I think I still might try Bubblechukka. It does have 3 profiles but they each have better ideal targets and I don’t need to choose which target until after I roll the profile and I can split fire anyway. I’ll likely set them up w a shokk atk gun somewhere where they can get plunging fire as well and reroll 1s. But kmk are nice with plunging fire as well. They just have shorter range and mostly looking for high toughness units which to be fair is an orks biggest issue overall.

gungo wrote:
For mozgrod the squig does wound on 5s however due to mozgrod ability on charge those are critical wounds and thus with devastating wounds they are mortal wounds that also have +3 damage due to his other ability.

I don’t think he gets to double dip with both damage bonuses. Last line says when targeting a titanic unit “add 2 to the damage characteristic instead”

Has anyone tried out the Shokk attack gun yet?

 flaming tadpole wrote:

gungo wrote:
For mozgrod the squig does wound on 5s however due to mozgrod ability on charge those are critical wounds and thus with devastating wounds they are mortal wounds that also have +3 damage due to his other ability.

I don’t think he gets to double dip with both damage bonuses. Last line says when targeting a titanic unit “add 2 to the damage characteristic instead”

You are right I missed the instead part. Still that’s 6mw per hit.

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halkom1 wrote:
Has anyone tried out the Shokk attack gun yet?

It’s one of the best battleshock units in game. I can’t see playing w/o it.
Attach a unit of Mek guns to it to give out reroll 1 and ablative wounds put them on 6in tall terrain for plunging fire and enjoy.

halkom1 wrote:
Has anyone tried out the Shokk attack gun yet?

I’m kinda meh on it. Right now due to the way it’s worded pretty much all out of phase battleshock tests seem pretty weak. If they fail the test on your turn it isn’t carrying over to theirs so they can still cap objectives. I think I’d take it against specific armies like being able to deny a necron unit from using an out of phase reanimation could be the difference maker in finishing off a squad, but I don’t think it’d make the cut if I was taking it to a tourney.


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gungo wrote:
You are right I missed the instead part. Still that’s 6mw per hit.

oh ya for sure he still puts in that work.

Shokk attack gun has been good for me once I figured out the correct target (it ain't tanks!). Strange how he only benefits from rr1's when leading a unit (and not solo) but also half the units he can joing have rr1's on their datacard.

Really interesting to hear all the different takes so far, I've played 3 games of tenth now with my orks and so far am unbeaten, all the games were at 1k points to learn some of the mechanics and I have a 2k game this weekend. Lessons learned so far from my games against thousand sons, marines and then GSC:

10 flash gitz with badrukk were my mvps in all of the games so far, I started them in a trukk for some turn 1 protection but they soon piled out and started blasting, they absolutely shred whatever you point then at and can be a nasty surprise in combat too
Mozrog is great at tanking damage, he is a real threat and can soak a lot of fire, he is obviously better until bigger stuff but can still throw out decent damage into most things
Grots are great at hiding and farming CPs, at least one unit is the easiest include in any list
Squighogz with a Nob with HWKC are fast enough to be a great flank threat and hit pretty hard too, they are really useful as a counter charge threat as well
Trukks at 50 points with a wrecking ball are a steal, they can drop off their ladz then just run around getting in the way and running things over with the tank shock strat
I ran a unit of 3 kanz with rokkits and they did well too, not having to suffer through their terrible leadership is a big positive change from 9th and they hold up well against a fair amount of shooting

I'm looking forward to a bigger game but so far have been really enjoying the lads and there are lots of combos I'm keen to try out, keep the reports coming everyone

 PaddyMick wrote:
Shokk attack gun has been good for me once I figured out the correct target (it ain't tanks!). Strange how he only benefits from rr1's when leading a unit (and not solo) but also half the units he can joing have rr1's on their datacard.

It's really nice for giving Mek Gunz the reroll against smaller model count units, where they wouldn't get their own reroll.

I'm debating whether I should keep my SAG Mek in my list of replace it with yet another Smasha Squig (going from 2x6 Hogs with Nobs to 2x3 Hogs with Nobs and 1x6 Hogs with Nob)

 flaming tadpole wrote:

halkom1 wrote:
Has anyone tried out the Shokk attack gun yet?

I’m kinda meh on it. Right now due to the way it’s worded pretty much all out of phase battleshock tests seem pretty weak. If they fail the test on your turn it isn’t carrying over to theirs so they can still cap objectives. I think I’d take it against specific armies like being able to deny a necron unit from using an out of phase reanimation could be the difference maker in finishing off a squad, but I don’t think it’d make the cut if I was taking it to a tourney.


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gungo wrote:
You are right I missed the instead part. Still that’s 6mw per hit.

oh ya for sure he still puts in that work.

Battleshock still allows you to take objectives from your opponent in your turn, cut Strats off In Your turn (like overwatch), and turns off abilities on some units like necrons. It’s a long range scalpel not a hammer.

gungo wrote:

 flaming tadpole wrote:

halkom1 wrote:
Has anyone tried out the Shokk attack gun yet?

I’m kinda meh on it. Right now due to the way it’s worded pretty much all out of phase battleshock tests seem pretty weak. If they fail the test on your turn it isn’t carrying over to theirs so they can still cap objectives. I think I’d take it against specific armies like being able to deny a necron unit from using an out of phase reanimation could be the difference maker in finishing off a squad, but I don’t think it’d make the cut if I was taking it to a tourney.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
You are right I missed the instead part. Still that’s 6mw per hit.

oh ya for sure he still puts in that work.

Battleshock still allows you to take objectives from your opponent in your turn, cut Strats off In Your turn (like overwatch), and turns off abilities on some units like necrons. It’s a long range scalpel not a hammer.

For sure it's still is useful. Personally just not something I'm really interested in taking right now since it's unreliable to work. If we get access to modifiers in our dex than I'll definitely consider it.

 Jidmah wrote:
With as much crying about towering as there currently is all over the competitive scene, I doubt knights will remain a problem for long. In any case, Mozrog seems like a decent response to them.

How do you figure? He's not inexpensive, and you can only take one of him.

He also doesn't really seem as efficient in terms of dropping mortal wounds as some other Snagga options. How efficient is he really against knights?

My only issue with the SAG is for some reason it lacks DevWounds.
The gun that in the past was the only weapon that could bypass Eternal Warrior lacks DevWounds...wat?

So its basically just a light vehicle or heavy infantry killer now, but its pretty good at that.
Also giving MekGunz reroll 1s was unexpected and i love it (though it annoyingly gives me a reason to run my 3 mek gunz as one unit instead fo 3 lol)

Lootas in Trukk isnt that amazing. Remember, Deffguns are BS6+ with Heavy, so if it doesnt move and a Mek buffs it thats still only BS5+ (though it does bank a +1 to hit incase its hitting a Stealth target).

It’s actually not a bad gun for 75pts… 4+ reroll 1, d6+1 atk also rerollable, str9 ap -4, d6 dam and long range… battleshock test… it’s one of our few high ap weapons.

 flaming tadpole wrote:
For sure it's still is useful. Personally just not something I'm really interested in taking right now since it's unreliable to work. If we get access to modifiers in our dex than I'll definitely consider it.

Wurrboy is the only Ld-Mod in Orks I´ve found. But he´s effecting things a tad oddly. "Start of opp Command".

In general I find the moral rules really good. One match I chopped up half a mob of Chaos Cultists and they failed the test and lost the objective despite a bunch of termies also standing on the objective. It felt tactically right at the moment and it turned out correct. This is good and broadens the game imo.

battleshock is a great mechanic, just wish that units that fall back from CC would be forced to take a battleshock test too

Have a game this weekend, going to try a few things:



There are a few things i noticed, i want to try the buggy vs infantary, and defkopta MW ability, seems really nice to clear high model count, no limits on it.

I want to compare 10nobz vs 5nobz.

I don't expect much from ghaz, but i need something to threaten maybe up the mid field.. i am not sure he will be worth a while so i don't intend on doing much with him or the meganobz. Distractionfex?

No i don't have trucks, i am not some bad moons git..

Anyway suppose it's a green tide variant.

Can the killrig transport non snaggaz though?

Think I'll be better of with a Ard cased BW for the nobz

Hmm nah it can't but 10man snaggaz with boss is a really good investment. Also the rig can buff their S or his own. Overall it's decent for 220pts.

I just don't have the models.. I could proxy but i want to try the boy brick, i am still unsure how good it is.

Nobz on wagon? it's nice, but i would rather put them on a truck, it's just an expensive transport, and now on explosion only thing that happens is battleshock and MW so a truck would be enough for me.

Plus Jidmah pointed a good combo of follow me ladz and ere we go, you get as much move as a truck with nobz so you can shave 50pts for something else

Also you give more VP for wagon.

Guess it's down to preference, if used a wagon i would put ghaz and drop the meganobz since ghaz is already too expensive

I don’t like the wagons or other big vehicles this edition because some armies have zero issues obliterating them like nothing… and you just bleed bring it down with them.

The gargantuan squig is the only unit thats big enough and ironically doesn’t bleed a ton of vp.

Trukks aren’t really hard to blow up either but they do take more effort then they should for thier points.

 Scactha wrote:

 flaming tadpole wrote:
For sure it's still is useful. Personally just not something I'm really interested in taking right now since it's unreliable to work. If we get access to modifiers in our dex than I'll definitely consider it.

Wurrboy is the only Ld-Mod in Orks I´ve found. But he´s effecting things a tad oddly. "Start of opp Command".

In general I find the moral rules really good. One match I chopped up half a mob of Chaos Cultists and they failed the test and lost the objective despite a bunch of termies also standing on the objective. It felt tactically right at the moment and it turned out correct. This is good and broadens the game imo.

Yeah the battleshock is definitely improvement. And refreshing to even have to worry about it with marines

So happy that effect is interesting, matters and there's no army that's immune to it. Nids are closest to being immune with 3d6 check under synapse but only under synapse and you can still fail especially as values aren't that good generally...

 flaming tadpole wrote:

halkom1 wrote:
Has anyone tried out the Shokk attack gun yet?

I’m kinda meh on it. Right now due to the way it’s worded pretty much all out of phase battleshock tests seem pretty weak. If they fail the test on your turn it isn’t carrying over to theirs so they can still cap objectives. I think I’d take it against specific armies like being able to deny a necron unit from using an out of phase reanimation could be the difference maker in finishing off a squad, but I don’t think it’d make the cut if I was taking it to a tourney.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
You are right I missed the instead part. Still that’s 6mw per hit.

oh ya for sure he still puts in that work.

need to take an objective for a secondary but cant possibly kill the unit off the obj?

battleshock gives them OC 0

unit unchargeable because it has a fight first strat? battleshock turns that off.

is forcing BS reliable? nope. But it can have value on your turn.

gungo wrote:
I don’t like the wagons or other big vehicles this edition because some armies have zero issues obliterating them like nothing… and you just bleed bring it down with them.

The gargantuan squig is the only unit thats big enough and ironically doesn’t bleed a ton of vp.

Trukks aren’t really hard to blow up either but they do take more effort then they should for thier points.

It kind of comes down to redundancy, as it always does with Orks.

Trukks are obnoxious to destroy for their points cost; they need juuust enough firepower that they aren't trivial. Fortunately you can take loads of them and just cram them down your opponents throat and your units are going to get there.

Battlewagons are decently tough with an Ard Case, bit will die to dedicated AT fire. You either need more than one, or something else that's going to draw similar firepower like a Kill Rig. Other than that, hold on to your butts and hope at least one gets where it needs to be. You could also put something in there that's decently fast and decently durable so that they don't care when the wagon blows up, like Snaggas, Boys or Nobs.

I think MANz in a wagon might be a trap unless you take more than one wagon to attract some of the AT shooting. It's very expensive in terms of points and MANz are slow and not really durable enough to walk if the wagon blows up turn one.

The Gargantuan Squiggoth is enough of a distraction that it should draw most AT fire, whilst being durable enough to still make it to something and smack it about. Ultimately if they commit to killing the Squiggoth all of your other vehicles will go more or less ignored.

terennNash wrote:

 flaming tadpole wrote:

halkom1 wrote:
Has anyone tried out the Shokk attack gun yet?

I’m kinda meh on it. Right now due to the way it’s worded pretty much all out of phase battleshock tests seem pretty weak. If they fail the test on your turn it isn’t carrying over to theirs so they can still cap objectives. I think I’d take it against specific armies like being able to deny a necron unit from using an out of phase reanimation could be the difference maker in finishing off a squad, but I don’t think it’d make the cut if I was taking it to a tourney.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
You are right I missed the instead part. Still that’s 6mw per hit.

oh ya for sure he still puts in that work.

need to take an objective for a secondary but cant possibly kill the unit off the obj?

battleshock gives them OC 0

unit unchargeable because it has a fight first strat? battleshock turns that off.

is forcing BS reliable? nope. But it can have value on your turn.

Forcing BS is about only way you can reliably kill off 20 necron warriors without doing like 40+ damage in single attack.

And of course whole bunch of secondaries becomes suddenly easier.

Wish the Kombi-weapons weren't trash. Would love to bring 3x MSU MANZ for 195 points in reserves with Scorchas.

The more i look into it, the worst MANZ look as a profile..

Haven't seen a report where they been meaningful..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

terennNash wrote:

 flaming tadpole wrote:

halkom1 wrote:
Has anyone tried out the Shokk attack gun yet?

I’m kinda meh on it. Right now due to the way it’s worded pretty much all out of phase battleshock tests seem pretty weak. If they fail the test on your turn it isn’t carrying over to theirs so they can still cap objectives. I think I’d take it against specific armies like being able to deny a necron unit from using an out of phase reanimation could be the difference maker in finishing off a squad, but I don’t think it’d make the cut if I was taking it to a tourney.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
You are right I missed the instead part. Still that’s 6mw per hit.

oh ya for sure he still puts in that work.

need to take an objective for a secondary but cant possibly kill the unit off the obj?

battleshock gives them OC 0

unit unchargeable because it has a fight first strat? battleshock turns that off.

is forcing BS reliable? nope. But it can have value on your turn.

Forcing BS is about only way you can reliably kill off 20 necron warriors without doing like 40+ damage in single attack.

And of course whole bunch of secondaries becomes suddenly easier.

They live and die on their characters a lot, use epic challenge strat a lot on your characters and snipe them when ever you can, it will make your life a lot easier.

Can someone target Ghaz with precision when he has makari around?

Tittliewinks22 wrote:
Wish the Kombi-weapons weren't trash. Would love to bring 3x MSU MANZ for 195 points in reserves with Scorchas.

Yeah, it's bad that they ported over the boring and frankly garbage combi-weapon rules that SM have over to Orks. It's only vaguely passable for them because they have high BS and Oath of Moment rerolls out the wazoo. For us with low BS, low rate of fire and on very slow platforms, it's pretty dumb, especially since we only had rokkit launchas or skorchas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beardedragon wrote:
Can someone target Ghaz with precision when he has makari around?

Yes. As far as I know Makari doesn't stop him from being allocated wounds given to him via Precision.

Correct. Precision allows attacker being able to designate specific character model in attached unit. While Makari is character also the 2 are separate models and precision allows attacker selecting specific character model. Not character unit.

Some 10th tourney results: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-termination-of-9th-edition-dawn-of-10th/

Looooot of Eldar and Knights. One Ork player went 4-1 for 7th place, but very few Orks overall.

Need to register for an account to see his list, but this was the summary: Highly aggro Orky goodness, taking Ghaz at the head of an array of Kommandos, Stormboyz and Squighogs, with two loaded Kill Rigs forming a central anchor

Just about everyone took stormboyz, which surprised me a bit.

 JohnU wrote:
Some 10th tourney results: https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-termination-of-9th-edition-dawn-of-10th/

Looooot of Eldar and Knights. One Ork player went 4-1 for 7th place, but very few Orks overall.

Need to register for an account to see his list, but this was the summary: Highly aggro Orky goodness, taking Ghaz at the head of an array of Kommandos, Stormboyz and Squighogs, with two loaded Kill Rigs forming a central anchor

Just about everyone took stormboyz, which surprised me a bit.

stormboyz are super good at mission play. They're the perfect unit for threatening that cheap chaff unit your opponent has on their home obj with fly and permanent adv/charge and you can hide them pretty easily as 5 mans. 3x5 at 195pts is a pretty good bargain.

Has anyone at all played green tide? I was curious if anyone has actually run a ridiculous footboy list, or even a snagga on feet list. Better yet, a combination of the two.

They really aren't that expensive on a per model basis considering their durability only got better whereas their cost stayed quite similar.

Would they have a chance in the infantry blob target saturation game? I feel like people just went in on trukks.

I like the theory of a snagga horde with some supporting boy blobs swarming objectives and derping all over the place, while melta lancecannons fart uselessly into the green tide.

 TedNugent wrote:
Has anyone at all played green tide? I was curious if anyone has actually run a ridiculous footboy list, or even a snagga on feet list. Better yet, a combination of the two.

They really aren't that expensive on a per model basis considering their durability only got better whereas their cost stayed quite similar.

Would they have a chance in the infantry blob target saturation game? I feel like people just went in on trukks.

I like the theory of a snagga horde with some supporting boy blobs swarming objectives and derping all over the place, while melta lancecannons fart uselessly into the green tide.

I think the main problem is that you can only take 120 boyz max, only 3 of which can have Warbosses and you aren't that fast even with one unit having Follow Me Ladz. I guess you can also have the Weirdboy if you want to try the Alpha/Beta Strike combo of Ere We Go strat, but fundamentally the damage output isn't there and I feel the lethality is still high enough in the game (and you can't really stack defenses that well, if you could overlap the KFF with the Painboy I think there would be more merit). You can definitely reserve a few but without built in rerolls they could just be sitting their on the turn they show up not really doing anything. I would be curious on how it does with Kommando/Stormboy support, but their damage output is still very similar so I think that that's why a lot of people haven't tuned into that style of list yet. (also Green Tide usually is a chore to play for most people).

yeah i think green tide is dead by design.
120boyz is almost half what people ran with proper green tides.
Theres also no innate reason to take a 20man squad of boyz unlike before where they either had mad morale boosts or extra attacks (or both) for having tons of models. So except the ones that can have a boss+something else its a wasted effort.

Sick, fw units were added to the app.

I third the notion of green tide being dead. Boyz are nothing but ablative wounds for characters, without much killing power outside of that. Flooding the board with units that are unable to threaten anything armored is not going to end in your favor.
10th has taken multiple measures that a single weapon profile will never be effective against all possible targets, and that includes the PK and the choppa. You can no longer crush elite infantry or vehicles with weight of attacks and tank can neither be tarpitted nor seriously damaged even if you should get most of your models in fighting range.

Spamming boyz is as dead as it can be. If you want to run an all-infantry list you need to bring different units to cover all your bases, otherwise you eventually will be stuck with your scissors fighting rocks.

In general, this is a good thing. Green tide being viable has always been a symptom of badly written ork codices, because it essentially declares that every other unit in the codex is worse than boyz.

I think if you want to run a Green Tide you're forced into spamming Snagga Boys, Nobs and Flash Gits (all with their supporting characters) if you want to stand any hope of actually doing damage when/if you get across the board.

So essentially all of your units (barring flash gits) are delivery systems for characters, which is great in the sense that you'd go back to the old tried and tested method of the hidden PK from editions past, but that isn't going to cut it any more.

And that's also not a terribly big horde...

Is there a clear winner between kommandos and stormboyz? What roles should each be fulfilling if I field both? Which of the kommando options are worth taking?

My son bought me the kommando kill team box (what delightful sculpts) and i also have some kit bashed ones that include a big shoota and a burna.

Thanks!

Coh Magnussen wrote:
Is there a clear winner between kommandos and stormboyz? What roles should each be fulfilling if I field both? Which of the kommando options are worth taking?

My son bought me the kommando kill team box (what delightful sculpts) and i also have some kit bashed ones that include a big shoota and a burna.

Thanks!

I'd say stormboys are the clear winner just for the fact they can still be in 5 mans but kommandos are still a solid choice. Snikrot is considerably better than he was in 9th so I'd say he's an auto include if your gonna run them. I don't have the damage spreadsheet up but I believe the optimal loadout was basically all choppas plus the breacha ram and rokkit launcha for 2 models. I think the burna was fairly close to the same so if you already have one modeled with it might as well throw it in too.

If I'm running Zagstruk, does it make more sense to beef up his mob to 10 for a deepstrike charge, or run 2x5?

Oh ya for sure would go for a 10 man if your adding zaggy boy.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah i think green tide is dead by design.
120boyz is almost half what people ran with proper green tides.
Theres also no innate reason to take a 20man squad of boyz unlike before where they either had mad morale boosts or extra attacks (or both) for having tons of models. So except the ones that can have a boss+something else its a wasted effort.

I don't think that there is any rule precluding you from taking, say, 6 squads of Beastsnaggas and 6 squads of Boyz.

It just says six squads of battleline, and both of them are battleline.

So the commentary of 120 models max doesn't make sense to me. Especially if you consider Gretchin.

The alternate commentary of "oh no, they're going to snipe my characters" also doesn't make sense, as I said greentide, not herohammer. It's not like I'm not seeing lists with characters in damn near every squadron. No, I'm talking about throwing a big green wall of nothing but da boyz.

And what I asked was, has anyone tried it yet, not has anyone poopoo'd it on a forum at first glance without even bothering to give it a spin first.

How many bodies could you fit on the table if you really tried? 100 boyz is what, 850 points? 120 for 1020 points. 20 beast snaggas is 210? So, conservatively, you could field, say, 200 bodies on the table at 2000 with at least 100 points left over for your mandatory character just for giggles. 200 T5 5+ models. Let me put it this way, how would you guys build an ork list to counter that? Would your lists be able to deal with it? Alternatively, you could field 6 squads of snaggas for 1260, each with T5/5+/6+++. Can armies still reliably kill 2-3 squads a turn this edition?

 TedNugent wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah i think green tide is dead by design.
120boyz is almost half what people ran with proper green tides.
Theres also no innate reason to take a 20man squad of boyz unlike before where they either had mad morale boosts or extra attacks (or both) for having tons of models. So except the ones that can have a boss+something else its a wasted effort.

I don't think that there is any rule precluding you from taking, say, 6 squads of Beastsnaggas and 6 squads of Boyz.

It just says six squads of battleline, and both of them are battleline.

So the commentary of 120 models max doesn't make sense to me. Especially if you consider Gretchin.

The alternate commentary of "oh no, they're going to snipe my characters" also doesn't make sense, as I said greentide, not herohammer. It's not like I'm not seeing lists with characters in damn near every squadron. No, I'm talking about throwing a big green wall of nothing but da boyz.

And what I asked was, has anyone tried it yet, not has anyone poopoo'd it on a forum at first glance without even bothering to give it a spin first.

How many bodies could you fit on the table if you really tried? 100 boyz is what, 850 points? 120 for 1020 points. 20 beast snaggas is 210? So, conservatively, you could field, say, 200 bodies on the table at 2000 with at least 100 points left over for your mandatory character just for giggles. 200 T5 5+ models. Let me put it this way, how would you guys build an ork list to counter that? Would your lists be able to deal with it? Alternatively, you could field 6 squads of snaggas for 1260, each with T5/5+/6+++. Can armies still reliably kill 2-3 squads a turn this edition?

You can get 120 Boys and 80 Snagga Boys for 1860 points.

The issue you have isnt getting bodies onto the table, it's that of you just go for numbers then you're clogging up the board without really being able to actually kill much of anything.

That 200 Boys I outlined above is great for swarming the board, but it's completely stalled out by anything T10 or higher.

The reason we've immediately gone against the idea of true Green Tide is that it doesn't do any damage to vehicles, and when you start taking the characters that can make those units do something (even if the unit is just a character delivery system), you've quartered the amount of Orks on the board for not a great deal of benefit.

We're better off playing Mechanised Hero Hammer, or going down the Orkstodes route of loading up on the more "elite" units that can actually dish out damage.

I tried a lists which was mostly boyz at 1k points with some character support. I had zero chance at winning that game, for the reasons I outlined before, and I'm very confident the problem becomes worse at 2k points.

It doesn't really matter how many models you can flood the board with if you get roadblocked by units that you just can't kill. Especially if those units the same or less than 20 boyz.

I'm also very confident that my current list could handle a tide, since squigboys essentially make one unit disappear per turn on their own and nobz with attached warboss aren't far behind. Since both can have -1 to wound, my losses would be minimal.
Meanwhile, a unit of 3 MANz with KFF mek can pretty much stop a unit of choppa boyz dead in their tracks all day long and every single thump gun and rokkit gets 4 extra attacks against your mobs.

The GSC player who tried to run a re-animating horde against me (100+ models@1k points) was tabled by turn 3.

Playing max beastsnagga boyz might work out, boyz without characters are just not worth bringing.

Even then I think Snagga Boys are best used as a Beastboss delivery system.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
The reason we've immediately gone against the idea of true Green Tide is that it doesn't do any damage to vehicles, and when you start taking the characters that can make those units do something (even if the unit is just a character delivery system), you've quartered the amount of Orks on the board for not a great deal of benefit.

Not just vehicles - IMO there are the following defensive "weight classes" in 10th edition:

1) Light infantry - gretchin, kultists, pox walkers, infantry squads, guardians. You have little requirements in regards to the quality of attacks here, more is better.
2) Medium infantry - marines, flash gits, sisters, beastsnagga boyz, aspects. They have multiple layers of defense and enough armor to benefit from cover. You need decent strength, devastating wounds or amor penetration to kill them efficiently. Weight of low quality attacks can hurt, but not wipe them.
3) Heavy infantry - terminators, MANz, custodes, bullgryns. Usually good toughness, armor and invuls backed up by high wound counts and defensive abilities, characters or stratagems. You need high quality guns to kill them, with good number of shots. They pretty much shrug off low quality attacks, even in high numbers and dedicated anti-tank guns often aren't sufficient to kill them because the low number of shots bounces of the invuls.
4) Mounted/Beasts/light vehicles - bikes, squighogs, spawn, buggies. Durable units similar to medium infantry, but with more wounds, but below the magic T8 threshold. Other than medium infantry, you need high damage weapons to kill them efficiently.
5) Vehicles - trukks, speeders, rhinos, guard artillery. Good armor, wounds and toughness of 8-10, but no further noteworthy defensive layers. Weight of attacks will hurt them, but as these models tend to be cheap there is no way to kill them efficiently without high quality weapons.
6) Monsters/Walkers - dreads, hellbrutes, daemon princes, primarchs, daemon engines. They have great defensive profiles, invuls, defensive abilities but are usually limited to T9 or 10 and around 10 wounds. In theory they could be drowned in attacks, but almost all of them hit hard, you take major losses when trying. PKs can usually take them down during the Waaagh!
7) Tanks/super-heavies - LRBT, battlewagon with 'ard case, morkanaut, landraiders. Unless you can ignore at least one layer of their durability (toughness or armor or high wound counts), don't bother shooting them.
Of course, there are some oddballs which fit nowhere, but the absolute majority of models fit into one of these classes.

Taking those "classes" and comparing them to a tide's toolbox:
Boyz with choppas: Good against 1), average against 2) and 4), bad against everything else
Beastsnagga boyz: Good against 1) 2) and 5), average against 4) and 6), bad against 3) and 7)
Warboss with PK: Good against 2), 4) and 5), average against 1), 6), bad against 3) and 7)
Rokkits: Good against 4) and 5), average against 6) and 2), bad against everything else.

Essentially, by going all in with model skew, you leave yourself struggling with monsters and multi-wound models while also having no solution to both heavy infantry and tanks. With pile-in drifts being a thing of the past, you can be easily held off objectives by such models.
You will inevitable score some wins with such a tactic because people are used to moving away from orks. But once they find out that you have no teeth, you are easily countered.

 Jidmah wrote:
I tried a lists which was mostly boyz at 1k points with some character support. I had zero chance at winning that game, for the reasons I outlined before, and I'm very confident the problem becomes worse at 2k points.

It doesn't really matter how many models you can flood the board with if you get roadblocked by units that you just can't kill. Especially if those units the same or less than 20 boyz.

I'm also very confident that my current list could handle a tide, since squigboys essentially make one unit disappear per turn on their own and nobz with attached warboss aren't far behind. Since both can have -1 to wound, my losses would be minimal.
Meanwhile, a unit of 3 MANz with KFF mek can pretty much stop a unit of choppa boyz dead in their tracks all day long and every single thump gun and rokkit gets 4 extra attacks against your mobs.

The GSC player who tried to run a re-animating horde against me (100+ models@1k points) was tabled by turn 3.

Playing max beastsnagga boyz might work out, boyz without characters are just not worth bringing.

Thanks for the feedback. Bummer.

To be fair, they do look pretty good until you start getting into Terminator profiles, and obviously they're quite inefficient against vehicles.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14_qEf-G0CG8NCmscE4sgJ1epFvn3wNtUv1zfbqlvSpY/edit#gid=409454321

I do generally agree that beastboss seems to be the tipping point for beast snaggas because of how efficient he is against vehicles. He kind of tips the balance for them due to dev wounds and makes them a bit more of a TAC squad, so I see the argument for throwing a 10+1 man in a trukk.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10v2sn_4UBsXxacsDq_3gsHsnmZRzlHR3PlgKgKktFM8/edit#gid=409454321

Errata is out.

Ghaz taking up 1 slot in a trukk hasn't been fixed

The errata was for physical cards to match what pdf has now. Ie nothing actually changed yet in game.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
Errata is out.

Ghaz taking up 1 slot in a trukk hasn't been fixed

Was just about to say this, very funny that part hasn't been addressed yet. We'll have to wait and see how long Ghaz is technically able to be viable via trukk use for the time being, though I think the majority of Ork players won't be cheesing him that way

Any advice for selecting a warlord? If my characters were, for instance, snikrot, zagstruk, badrukk, and zodgrod wortsnagga - who should i choose as warlord and why?

Also - would those 4 (each with a 10-man mob) and a pair of trukks for the gitz and grotz make a decent 1k list?

Metawatch Article wrote:A few other documents were mentioned in the video that you should be aware of. The first of these contains the initial balance updates that will launch in early July, seeking to address some of the early imbalances that have emerged in the new armies. Chief among these will be changes to Fate dice used by the Aeldari, and forms of indirect fire.

Oh thank Gork.

Sites of Power is in the GT mission pack. Bring those characters, boyz.

Realistically it's someone that you think won't be focused down or won't be on the front lines as much, I think badrukk is probably not a bad bet since he has a good save and invuln and he won't be stuck in CC so he'll be more out of harms way compared to most of our units.

i am trying tonight this kind of green tide list:

Zogrod + 21 gretchins
Warboss (follow me ladz) + Painboy + 20 boyz (2rockets)
2 × 10 beastsnagga + trukk
2 × 10 Nobz (7PK) + Painboy + trukk
3 × Kommandos (breacha PK)
11 gretchins

playing versus SM irond hands. we will see 🤣

They also mentioned that the limitation of not stepping in objectives will be removed but i haven't seen the rule change.

Well it's tournament specific rule

Which makes the gargantuan squiggoth an actual viable thing now. I used it in my first 10th edition tournament and it did really well with the -1 to wound stratagem thrown on it, but it was hampered a decent amount by that stupid objective marker rule.

Now i can actually run around doing carnage with this thing.

Players now set up objective markers on the battlefield.
Each Deployment card’s deployment map will show
players how many objective markers to set up and
where each should be placed. In Leviathan Tournament
Missions, models can end any type of move on top of an
objective marker

Found it.

 Jidmah wrote:


Not just vehicles - IMO there are the following defensive "weight classes" in 10th edition:

1) Light infantry - gretchin, kultists, pox walkers, infantry squads, guardians. You have little requirements in regards to the quality of attacks here, more is better.
2) Medium infantry - marines, flash gits, sisters, beastsnagga boyz, aspects. They have multiple layers of defense and enough armor to benefit from cover. You need decent strength, devastating wounds or amor penetration to kill them efficiently. Weight of low quality attacks can hurt, but not wipe them.
3) Heavy infantry - terminators, MANz, custodes, bullgryns. Usually good toughness, armor and invuls backed up by high wound counts and defensive abilities, characters or stratagems. You need high quality guns to kill them, with good number of shots. They pretty much shrug off low quality attacks, even in high numbers and dedicated anti-tank guns often aren't sufficient to kill them because the low number of shots bounces of the invuls.
4) Mounted/Beasts/light vehicles - bikes, squighogs, spawn, buggies. Durable units similar to medium infantry, but with more wounds, but below the magic T8 threshold. Other than medium infantry, you need high damage weapons to kill them efficiently.
5) Vehicles - trukks, speeders, rhinos, guard artillery. Good armor, wounds and toughness of 8-10, but no further noteworthy defensive layers. Weight of attacks will hurt them, but as these models tend to be cheap there is no way to kill them efficiently without high quality weapons.
6) Monsters/Walkers - dreads, hellbrutes, daemon princes, primarchs, daemon engines. They have great defensive profiles, invuls, defensive abilities but are usually limited to T9 or 10 and around 10 wounds. In theory they could be drowned in attacks, but almost all of them hit hard, you take major losses when trying. PKs can usually take them down during the Waaagh!
7) Tanks/super-heavies - LRBT, battlewagon with 'ard case, morkanaut, landraiders. Unless you can ignore at least one layer of their durability (toughness or armor or high wound counts), don't bother shooting them.
Of course, there are some oddballs which fit nowhere, but the absolute majority of models fit into one of these classes.

Taking those "classes" and comparing them to a tide's toolbox:
Boyz with choppas: Good against 1), average against 2) and 4), bad against everything else
Beastsnagga boyz: Good against 1) 2) and 5), average against 4) and 6), bad against 3) and 7)
Warboss with PK: Good against 2), 4) and 5), average against 1), 6), bad against 3) and 7)
Rokkits: Good against 4) and 5), average against 6) and 2), bad against everything else.

I know you said you weren't going to do a tier list, but for this edition you pretty much did here. I think you got it pretty much right, but I slightly disagree that the magic tier is T10, not T8. S6-9 is pretty common across the board and for Orks in particular getting to those double digits is where we'll struggle.
The "class" thing is a good lesson. There's no more generalist units for us, or maybe anyone. Everything has a target it's good against, but that range is very narrow. One PK Nob in a Boyz/Stormboyz/Kommando Squad isn't doing gak anymore. You can't really evaluate units in a vacuum.

 JohnU wrote:
I know you said you weren't going to do a tier list, but for this edition you pretty much did here. I think you got it pretty much right, but I slightly disagree that the magic tier is T10, not T8. S6-9 is pretty common across the board and for Orks in particular getting to those double digits is where we'll struggle.

I think both are magic numbers. T8 is because it makes S4 wound on sixes, and melta/PF and overcharged plasma on fours. 10 is a magic number because it makes all those expensive S9 and S10 weapons with great numbers in all stats (I don't have a good name for them) drop off.

The "class" thing is a good lesson. There's no more generalist units for us, or maybe anyone. Everything has a target it's good against, but that range is very narrow. One PK Nob in a Boyz/Stormboyz/Kommando Squad isn't doing gak anymore. You can't really evaluate units in a vacuum.

Yup, that was exactly my point. So far I have seen Marines (DA, IF, BT), guard, GSC, necrons, TS and, of course, orks and DG play. The closest unit I've seen to a generalist is the Lion himself, he will just muder everything he touches outside of a gargantuan squiggoth buffed with 'ard as nails. Even desolators fail to deliver if pointed at the wrong units.

I think this also is the very reason why eldar are over the top now - their devastating wounds of fate turn every D-weapon into an all-rounder when the ability was just supposed to slightly improve your weapon's chances against monsters and heavy infantry.

Yeah it's weird that S4 is relatively rare, even for Orks.

I think my main issue with 10th tier system is that units like knights or heavy tanks are only really threatened by units with massive mortal wounds… like a mob on squig w relic killchoppa and a unit of 6x squigboys w bomb squigs.

Even mozgrod who has a ton Of damage per hit on vehicles/monsters or titantic and a decent amount of atks.. is only okay because he lacks mortal wounds (devastating wounds) on his primary atk.

You really need to lean into this type of unit for a good TAC list or just ignore those types of units if you can.

I disagree. By 9th edition measures we used to define "good" as something that does its points worth of damage to a target and best case kills it in one turn. 10th is no longer that game, almost all instances of "massive mortal wounds" are loopholes which exploit devastating wounds in some way. Not only are these loopholes limited to very few armies and units, but I also expect GW to weed them out as the edition matures.

In the end, we will have to treat every one of those units like we treated daemon primarchs in 9th. You need to analyze whether you can kill them to begin with, whether killing them or avoiding or feeding them chaff is the best solution and when you do opt for killing them, you need to make sure that both the units good at killing them AND the units which are merely average at killing those big things are in position to take them down.

You can no longer defeat those units in the list building stage by simply bringing the right counter.

It's dev wounds and the anti combo that kind of get a little bit nutty. Mortal wounds on 4+? Lol.

But consider how bad things like power fists/klaws are compared to what they used to be. Hitting on 4's, wounding on 3's against T5, 5's against heavy vehicles, flat 2 damage. They're mediocre in an anti-vehicle role without weight of dice.

Imagine if they react to the feedback about powerlevel points and make you pay for power klaws again. If it was a high cost, suddenly internal unit balance would go haywire and units like nobz could lose badly.

I feel like this is a bad time to invest heavily in new models, at least until the first core rules pass through by GW.

 Jidmah wrote:
I disagree. By 9th edition measures we used to define "good" as something that does its points worth of damage to a target and best case kills it in one turn. 10th is no longer that game, almost all instances of "massive mortal wounds" are loopholes which exploit devastating wounds in some way. Not only are these loopholes limited to very few armies and units, but I also expect GW to weed them out as the edition matures.

In the end, we will have to treat every one of those units like we treated daemon primarchs in 9th. You need to analyze whether you can kill them to begin with, whether killing them or avoiding or feeding them chaff is the best solution and when you do opt for killing them, you need to make sure that both the units good at killing them AND the units which are merely average at killing those big things are in position to take them down.

You can no longer defeat those units in the list building stage by simply bringing the right counter.

I mean there is a reason why knights are fairly dominate so far in 10th and it’s not really because of towering.
As stated before weapons like Pks are more anti heavy infantry then anti heavy vehicles.
Dev wounds is purposefully done and multiple armies/units are built around the keyword but it’s become the only reliable way to kill certain units efficiently.

had my first game of 10th a couple of days ago...

my list:


game was against eldar
from memory:


gotta say wraithguard + fate dice is bonkers
we decided thats not gonna fly anymore, wasnt even funny for my opponent

got first turn advanced up the board, grabbed all objective and waited for 3million brightlances to tear me to shreds

mozdrag with ard as nails soaked up like 90% of enemy firepower, before he finally died. would've considered that a fair trade, until wraithguard stepped up and just deleted the killrig with fate dice.
snaggaz can punch elves hard, but thats no suprise.
Painboss was OK. he basically kept the nob and himself alive when otherwise they would be dead. but the nbice thing i never considred... he can heal himself each turn for 3 wounds. so unless he is outright killed, hes back up to full wounds.
kmk's didnt do much. i saw no point in plinking away at the serpents, killed some points here and there but mostly disappointing. one blew himself up with mortal wounds.... i think a SAG with a unit of three might do better.
stormboyz were great utility. for 65 points its a steal. will bring em every time.
squighogs soaked much firepower too, bossnob was pretty tanky with the 4+++ kept him alive against the wraithlord for a turn. but i think HWKC is the better choice.
warboss basically killed wraithlord by himself, great dmg potential...
Nobz are great. even only 5 can put out alot of damage. -1 to wound was nice... until they died to 11 mortals from the wraithguard leaving the warboss alive... and then i realised that he has T5. what a joke.
killrigz wurrtower is nice, just wanted to test it out... but i think battlewagon with ardcase is much better as a delivery method.

the real stars were the trukks though... hard to kill. fast. and man... tankshock is hardcore. basically 4 mortals per charge extra. they were an annoyance to my opponent so he always shot at at least one of them... for 50 points.. damn they're good.

relics are nice... not gamechanging. but i would fit in as much as the points allow it.

Eldar player screened is good stuff with a line of guardians, wraithlord and serpents. i couldnt get through with only CC. WE NEED FIREPOWER. maybe i'll try flashgitz next time... but man i really wished we had old style tankbustaz... would've solved alot of problems
all in all fun game. really enjoyed 10th ruleset. was leading on points, but had nothing to deal with the wraithguard. couldnt even shoot at the damn things, because they would've wiped out a unit in return. was basically tabled at turn 4.

Are foot sloggers viable now, do I have to use transports?
I noticed that boyz are now capped at 30 for some strange reason and that doesn't seem good for sloggers.

gungo wrote:
As stated before weapons like Pks are more anti heavy infantry then anti heavy vehicles.

PK are good against neither. They are good at killing medium infantry like marines or snagga boyz but are fairly terrible against infantry with 3+ wounds, good saves and additional defensive buffs.

Dev wounds is purposefully done and multiple armies/units are built around the keyword

I'm sorry, but I have to call you out on that. Which armies and units, in specific, are built around "massive mortal wounds" caused by devastating wounds?
Before you go there, keep in mind that Death Watch has received the fastest errata in GW history and they have already announced the nerf for eldar.

but it’s become the only reliable way to kill certain units efficiently.

1) Efficiency is relative to how well other things kill your target. When there are no mortal wound wombo-combos anymore, requiring a whole army's damage for a turn might be considered efficient. You are still applying 9th standards, which is unanimously considered to be too lethal.
2) There should be no way to kill a landraider or knight as efficient as we did in 9th.

I'm fairly sure that all units you consider "efficient" are actually just broken good things.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Are foot sloggers viable now, do I have to use transports?
I noticed that boyz are now capped at 30 for some strange reason and that doesn't seem good for sloggers.

Their capped at 20, and the meta is around trucks.

So i had my game and it went the way of the dodo.. expected since i went with many different things, but oh how bad i felt going against necrons. Clearing 5 destroyers to have like 4 come back like nothing was insane...

It was a free for all, we mostly duked out in our side (tau player was too shy and took to his corner ) of the map with ghaz and the boyz plus getting stuck in some skorpecks and destroyers, ghaz was sniping characters when ever he could and manage to take 2, and painboy caused MW into a spider, but the shooting+ the melee and the fact my opponent kept getting his units faster then i could murder forced me to wield. Looking back i think i should have held my ground and forced my opponent out of the reanimator range, had i done that and sniped the correct character in the correct order i probably would have had a better game. Live and learn i guess. Oh moz tanked a cthan like a boss, took no damage and gave some back, the face of my opponent when nothing goes through was priceless.

Anyway the summary is boys are not there yet, i rather go nobz, their blenders, oh and the kill rig is a game changer if played right, that S buff is surprising good and can make a claw go S11, nothing new for mozy and squighogs, but i enjoy them in squads of 3, pretty much easy to hide, good punch and also the nob on smasha is mandatory to run them, the buff from the rig also helps them.

Defkoptas were a disappointment, just not enough shots for a unit, could not even use their ability, i can see room for the rukkatruck as anti infantry but not at 110pts, when there are flashgitz or mekguns... Meganobz? fuget about it! Not even worth the 65pts for ghaz cover. Oh speaking of ghaz, yeah he is overpriced, sure he can kill stuff but struggles with same issues from previous edition, while not being not even half as durable. He should received moz defensive stat profile, not this gak...

Anyway that's my exp.

Forceride wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Are foot sloggers viable now, do I have to use transports?
I noticed that boyz are now capped at 30 for some strange reason and that doesn't seem good for sloggers.

Their capped at 20, and the meta is around trucks.

So i had my game and it went the way of the dodo.. expected since i went with many different things, but oh how bad i felt going against necrons. Clearing 5 destroyers to have like 4 come back like nothing was insane...

It was a free for all, we mostly duked out in our side (tau player was too shy and took to his corner ) of the map with ghaz and the boyz plus getting stuck in some skorpecks and destroyers, ghaz was sniping characters when ever he could and manage to take 2, and painboy caused MW into a spider, but the shooting+ the melee and the fact my opponent kept getting his units faster then i could murder forced me to wield. Looking back i think i should have held my ground and forced my opponent out of the reanimator range, had i done that and sniped the correct character in the correct order i probably would have had a better game. Live and learn i guess. Oh moz tanked a cthan like a boss, took no damage and gave some back, the face of my opponent when nothing goes through was priceless.

Anyway the summary is boys are not there yet, i rather go nobz, their blenders, oh and the kill rig is a game changer if played right, that S buff is surprising good and can make a claw go S11, nothing new for mozy and squighogs, but i enjoy them in squads of 3, pretty much easy to hide, good punch and also the nob on smasha is mandatory to run them, the buff from the rig also helps them.

Defkoptas were a disappointment, just not enough shots for a unit, could not even use their ability, i can see room for the rukkatruck as anti infantry but not at 110pts, when there are flashgitz or mekguns... Meganobz? fuget about it! Not even worth the 65pts for ghaz cover. Oh speaking of ghaz, yeah he is overpriced, sure he can kill stuff but struggles with same issues from previous edition, while not being not even half as durable. He should received moz defensive stat profile, not this gak...

Anyway that's my exp.

Yes sorry, I meant 20. 30 is what they used to be, which screws up my collection because I organized them into units of 30.
Also I have like one trukk lol.
I guess GW really hates green tide now. Looking at the index, I'm not sure what the Orks' strengths are. You'd think they would give nearly everything sustained hits, due to the old DDD rule, but most ork weapons seem to have low hit chances with low rates of fire. That doesn't seem good.

 Jidmah wrote:

gungo wrote:
As stated before weapons like Pks are more anti heavy infantry then anti heavy vehicles.

PK are good against neither. They are good at killing medium infantry like marines or snagga boyz but are fairly terrible against infantry with 3+ wounds, good saves and additional defensive buffs.

Dev wounds is purposefully done and multiple armies/units are built around the keyword

I'm sorry, but I have to call you out on that. Which armies and units, in specific, are built around "massive mortal wounds" caused by devastating wounds?
Before you go there, keep in mind that Death Watch has received the fastest errata in GW history and they have already announced the nerf for eldar.

but it’s become the only reliable way to kill certain units efficiently.

1) Efficiency is relative to how well other things kill your target. When there are no mortal wound wombo-combos anymore, requiring a whole army's damage for a turn might be considered efficient. You are still applying 9th standards, which is unanimously considered to be too lethal.
2) There should be no way to kill a landraider or knight as efficient as we did in 9th.

I'm fairly sure that all units you consider "efficient" are actually just broken good things.

Depends on what your standard of medium or heavy infantry is but ya 2 wounds and 2 or 3+ save, t5 is ideal for pks..
what I mean is devastating wounds was handed out regularly to most armies making mortal wounds common and yes the most efficient (or overpowered) units are those which stack high amount of attacks or anti- weapons with it… and those combos are in almost every army. In some cases like deathwatch and wraithknights absurdly to much on (like 20-30mw), but those amounts are the abusive outliers whereas several armies have index units that can easily push out 8-12 mortal wounds (like an ork nob on squig w headwhompa in a unit with squig riders and 2 bomb squigs). Those units become almost necessary to take out heavy vehicles like knights.

So had my first game with Flashgitz and...holy balls they are deadly....
Would not be surprised if Badrukk goes to reroll hit rolls of 1 instead of reroll the hit roll. More because orks tend to get nerfed whenever something is genuinely good than because its overpowered. Wouldnt call them overpowered but they did punch through more than their points worth of stuff.

Once indirect fire gets nerfed and if mw’s get reduced enough I could see green tide at some point becoming a viable strat. Not necessarily a great strat, but with the way the meta is going more towards AT there could be play and we are capable of effectively pinning opponents in their deployment zone to deny primary.

gungo wrote:
Depends on what your standard of medium or heavy infantry is but ya 2 wounds and 2 or 3+ save, t5 is ideal for pks..

I think gave a rather conclusive list of what I consider "heavy infantry" a few posts ago. In short, a marine is not heavy infantry, a terminators is. PKs are pretty bad against terminator and other armies' equivalents.

what I mean is devastating wounds was handed out regularly to most armies making mortal wounds common and yes the most efficient (or overpowered) units are those which stack high amount of attacks or anti- weapons with it… and those combos are in almost every army.

Once again, I'm asking for specific examples. Because I'm not seeing those combos in any army.

In some cases like deathwatch and wraithknights absurdly to much on (like 20-30mw), but those amounts are the abusive outliers whereas several armies have index units that can easily push out 8-12 mortal wounds (like an ork nob on squig w headwhompa in a unit with squig riders and 2 bomb squigs). Those units become almost necessary to take out heavy vehicles like knights.

The only thing 'eadwhomas really does in this scenario is double the wounds done by the big choppa, as it ignores a knight's 4+ armor save. Squig riders with 2 bomb squigs and 'eadwompa combined add an average of ~7 MW once per game and only if the Waaagh! is active.

In the same scenario, the attacks of six squighogs lead by a smasha squig amount to:
4 from big choppa
0.42 from smasha squig
12 from stikkas
6.66 from squighogs
1 from thrown stikka
for a total of ~24 damage against a knight without dealing a single mortal wound, outright killing even one of the big ones.

While the Waaagh! is active, 5 Nobz with warboss can still deal 10-12 damage to a knight, if you align other units with them (for example Mozrog or a bunch of rokkits) they can kill one as well.

In other words, no you don't have to bring mortal wounds to kill a knight.

Is badruk really that usefull? Haven't played him yet, but he costs the same as 5 flashgitz. I mean at that point... Aren't 5 extra snazzguns better then rerolls? Also the rerolls won't work if they're embarked right? Do you guys just play em slogging?

10 flashgits in a trukk + mek for +1toH... Thats the same cost as 10 gits + badruk on foot. As are 10 + 5 flashgitz on foot.

Three issues with the trukk+mek
1) +1 to hit is a cap. Heavy +1 for not moving and Mek+1 = +1 to hit with a way to negate a -1 to shooting in the bag. If you have a mek you probably arent moving the trukk around to minimize what can shoot it.
2) Cannot overwatch inside a trukk, as they clarified any "as if its your shooting phase" doesnt enable any shootingphase rules (which is really dumb way to word "it can shoot" imo). And since overwatch is anything moved within 24" of a unit its pretty hard to NOT get shot by something thats actually good at overwatch, and with badrukk they are definitely good at overwatch.
3) Trukk isnt that hard to kill. You can usually keep it alive 1 turn if you sneak around ruins and pick off whatever you can see but eventually i want to move + disembark to sit on an objective.

Also, i'd rather not something i want to slap 'Ard as Nails on for -1 to wound get battleshocked because someone blew up their transport (per destroyed transport rules, the unit that comes out is automatically Battleshocked until the controlling player's command phase). Less likely to lose models on the test since its mortal wounds now instead of slain model (so need 2 1s to kill a flashgit) but then not being allowed to use -1 to wound strat on them means theyre gonna get mopped up quick

 Jidmah wrote:

gungo wrote:
Depends on what your standard of medium or heavy infantry is but ya 2 wounds and 2 or 3+ save, t5 is ideal for pks..

I think gave a rather conclusive list of what I consider "heavy infantry" a few posts ago. In short, a marine is not heavy infantry, a terminators is. PKs are pretty bad against terminator and other armies' equivalents.

what I mean is devastating wounds was handed out regularly to most armies making mortal wounds common and yes the most efficient (or overpowered) units are those which stack high amount of attacks or anti- weapons with it… and those combos are in almost every army.

Once again, I'm asking for specific examples. Because I'm not seeing those combos in any army.

In some cases like deathwatch and wraithknights absurdly to much on (like 20-30mw), but those amounts are the abusive outliers whereas several armies have index units that can easily push out 8-12 mortal wounds (like an ork nob on squig w headwhompa in a unit with squig riders and 2 bomb squigs). Those units become almost necessary to take out heavy vehicles like knights.

The only thing 'eadwhomas really does in this scenario is double the wounds done by the big choppa, as it ignores a knight's 4+ armor save. Squig riders with 2 bomb squigs and 'eadwompa combined add an average of ~7 MW once per game and only if the Waaagh! is active.

In the same scenario, the attacks of six squighogs lead by a smasha squig amount to:
4 from big choppa
0.42 from smasha squig
12 from stikkas
6.66 from squighogs
1 from thrown stikka
for a total of ~24 damage against a knight without dealing a single mortal wound, outright killing even one of the big ones.

While the Waaagh! is active, 5 Nobz with warboss can still deal 10-12 damage to a knight, if you align other units with them (for example Mozrog or a bunch of rokkits) they can kill one as well.

In other words, no you don't have to bring mortal wounds to kill a knight.

Not sure where you are getting your numbers for nob on squig w killchoppa
But it’s 6 atks on Waagh w 2+ to hit and 3+ anti vehicle meaning 6.67 mortals and the 2 bomb squigs average 3.33 mortal wounds… which is 10 mortals on average even if the knight had 6+ fnp that’s still 8.333 mortals..

And without mortals the big choppa is 6 atks 2+ hit, 3+ wound, 4+ save 2dam on knight that’s only 3.33 on choppa less if 6+ fnp.
Your math seems off, but regardless that damage potential from killchoppa on nob is only 3.33 more damage from the nob vs a knight. I get what you’re saying.

RedNoak wrote:
Is badruk really that usefull? Haven't played him yet, but he costs the same as 5 flashgitz. I mean at that point... Aren't 5 extra snazzguns better then rerolls? Also the rerolls won't work if they're embarked right? Do you guys just play em slogging?

10 flashgits in a trukk + mek for +1toH... Thats the same cost as 10 gits + badruk on foot. As are 10 + 5 flashgitz on foot.

When I was running the math, the reroll really played into lethal hits. Bear in mind more hits = more chances to score lethal hits when you use the runt.

The reroll alone makes 5 gits pretty close to the output of 10 gits, not including Badrukk's shooting, not including lethal hits.

If you take base stats against MEQ as a generic example:

10 gits:

.33*.66*.5*35
3.8 unsaved wounds

5 gits with rerolls starts to get complicated, but bear with
extra hits on a 6 with rerolling 1-4
(.66*.16) + (.16)
.266 chance of sustained hits, .266 * 15 = 4 extra attacks

.55*.66*.5*19 = 3.45 unsaved wounds

Badrukk:
.266 chance of sustained hits, (.266 * 3) + 3 = 3.8 attacks

.55*.83*.83*3.8 = 1.44 unsaved wounds at D3

So yeah, in terms of raw damage output, I think it's better, moreso if you add the runt, as their output goes up considerably based on the number of 6's, which the rerolls increase that number by 2/3. With a respectable 6 wounds behind a 3+ save, he seems to be a viable addition to me. Provided you disembark them, and I'd think you would want to, to make use of the runt. Lethal hits only goes up in value at higher T values due to lethal hit being autowound, and that's what makes them able to wound big stuff at a surprising rate with the runt.

gungo wrote:
Not sure where you are getting your numbers for nob on squig w killchoppa
But it’s 6 atks on Waagh w 2+ to hit and 3+ anti vehicle meaning 6.67 mortals and the 2 bomb squigs average 3.33 mortal wounds…

Hm, maybe my math is off, it was late yesterday...

So 6 attacks generate 5 hits and 1 substained hits trigger, wounds on 3+ for 4 wounds, AP-1 vs 3+ armor save (some knights have 2+, but most are limited 3+/5++) is 2x2 = 4 damage from the big choppa.
On big models devastating wounds just skipps the saves, so it essentially adds another 4 damage.

Bomb squigs "hit" on 1.66 for d3 damage each, making it 3.33. Though it has to be pointed out that this is a very misleading average and does not reflect the actual distribution and should instead be treated as 2-4

So the difference between just punching the knight without any help and using 'eadwompa and the squigs is just 6-8 mortal wounds which I averaged to ~7.

IMO 'eadwompa is a nice way to sink your last few points, but doesn't help that much with killing big stuff. It's actually much better against the models I classified as heavy infantry and monsters, because those rely heavily on saves to stay alive. I'd rather use 1 CP on unbridled carnage when facing knights.

Had my first game of 10th the other week and decided to take a silly list for a silly edition



My opponent took custodes and by gorks fat green backside are they durable.




Morkanaut was the first causality, got shot then charged by some wardens but did put out some dakka before hand.
deffdreads can take out a landraider with full claws it seems and also clear up small units of elites by themselves. Yeah they're expensive but durable and killy enough to justify it.
Bikers are good enough objective grabbers, but unless you spam them i doubt they'll get much done damage wise.
Grots are great for objective hugging and cp generating, especially since you can get multiple in one turn as they generate in the command phase so get around the 1cp only per turn rule.
Meks are awesome, as long as you can "heal" a full health model to give them the to hit buff
Stompa is fairly good, great use of overwatch, it's guns can hit hard and it has solid combat. My opponent had a 1+ to wound stratagem and even then he was struggling to wound that big T14 zogger. I'm sure some stuff may be able to wipe it out, but it's not a instant loss unit by any means.

Other things we learned, transports are fantastic units to pin down objective grabbers. Unless you have fallback and charge or enough spare firepower they'll follow and just keep charging.

I reckon i may give beastsnaggas a shot next.

Since we’ve been talking about green tide I thought it’d be interesting to see what the group would think to run if/when it becomes a viable option once indirect and mortals calm down a bit. My guts tell me I’d want to go balls to the wall with a turn 1 waaagh and try and pin the opponent in their deployment all game and basically be up in points so much by end of 3/4 that they can’t come back. This is what I came up with, surprisingly no beastsnaggas: Strat would be to always turn 1 waaagh. Use Zodgrod, kommandos, and da jump squad of boys turn 1 to pin the opponent in, then basically keep sending in wave after wave of boys while grots and storm boys focus on primary/secondary.

curiosity, whats so bad about indirect? its still weaker than it was in 9th since it imposes -1 to hit and now also automatically grants cover if you cant see the target.
Or is it the actual weapons with indirect are overtuned and not the core rule being a problem?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
curiosity, whats so bad about indirect? its still weaker than it was in 9th since it imposes -1 to hit and now also automatically grants cover if you cant see the target.
Or is it the actual weapons with indirect are overtuned and not the core rule being a problem?

Yeah loads of them have ways, some bullt into the datacard, that ignore the penaltys. Desolators are stoopid. But they've said they are addressing that, early this month.

@tadpole looks great mate, can't argue with 100 boyz. What about vs fast opponents who go first? Try and block them with kommandos? get in behind then with snikrot and da jump?
Good luck, Take some painkillers for the back ache ;0

ah, yeah fi you ignore either of those penalties then yeah i see why it'd be a problem.
Only played 3 games of 10th so far and havnt encountered any indirect except tau's missiles.

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Since we’ve been talking about green tide I thought it’d be interesting to see what the group would think to run if/when it becomes a viable option once indirect and mortals calm down a bit. My guts tell me I’d want to go balls to the wall with a turn 1 waaagh and try and pin the opponent in their deployment all game and basically be up in points so much by end of 3/4 that they can’t come back. This is what I came up with, surprisingly no beastsnaggas:

Spoiler:

Green tide (2000 Points) CHARACTERS

Boss Snikrot (105 Points)
• 1x Mork’s Teeth
1x Slugga

Warboss (95 Points)
• Warlord
• 1x Big choppa
1x Kombi-weapon
1x Twin slugga
• Enhancements: Follow Me Ladz

Weirdboy (55 Points)
• 1x Weirdboy staff
1x ’Eadbanger

Zodgrod Wortsnagga (80 Points)
• 1x Da Grabzappa
1x Slugga

BATTLELINE

Boyz (170 Points)
• 1x Boss Nob
• 1x Power klaw
1x Slugga
• 19x Boy
• 17x Choppa
2x Close combat weapon
2x Rokkit launcha
17x Slugga

Boyz (170 Points)
• 1x Boss Nob
• 1x Power klaw
1x Slugga
• 19x Boy
• 17x Choppa
2x Close combat weapon
2x Rokkit launcha
17x Slugga

Boyz (170 Points)
• 1x Boss Nob
• 1x Power klaw
1x Slugga
• 19x Boy
• 17x Choppa
2x Close combat weapon
2x Rokkit launcha
17x Slugga

Boyz (170 Points)
• 1x Boss Nob
• 1x Power klaw
1x Slugga
• 19x Boy
• 17x Choppa
2x Close combat weapon
2x Rokkit launcha
17x Slugga

Boyz (170 Points)
• 1x Boss Nob
• 1x Power klaw
1x Slugga
• 19x Boy
• 17x Choppa
2x Close combat weapon
2x Rokkit launcha
17x Slugga

Boyz (170 Points)
• 1x Boss Nob
• 1x Power klaw
1x Slugga
• 19x Boy
• 17x Choppa
2x Close combat weapon
2x Rokkit launcha
17x Slugga

OTHER DATASHEETS

Gretchin (90 Points)
• 2x Runtherd
• 2x Grot-smacka
2x Slugga
• 20x Gretchin
• 20x Close combat weapon
20x Grot blasta

Gretchin (45 Points)
• 1x Runtherd
• 1x Grot-smacka
1x Slugga
• 10x Gretchin
• 10x Close combat weapon
10x Grot blasta

Gretchin (45 Points)
• 1x Runtherd
• 1x Grot-smacka
1x Slugga
• 10x Gretchin
• 10x Close combat weapon
10x Grot blasta

Kommandos (135 Points)
• 1x Boss Nob
• 1x Choppa
1x Slugga
• 9x Kommando
• 9x Choppa
9x Slugga

Kommandos (135 Points)
• 1x Boss Nob
• 1x Choppa
1x Slugga
• 9x Kommando
• 9x Choppa
9x Slugga

Stormboyz (65 Points)
• 1x Boss Nob
• 1x Choppa
1x Slugga
• 4x Stormboy
• 4x Choppa
4x Slugga

Stormboyz (65 Points)
• 1x Boss Nob
• 1x Choppa
1x Slugga
• 4x Stormboy
• 4x Choppa
4x Slugga

Stormboyz (65 Points)
• 1x Boss Nob
• 1x Choppa
1x Slugga
• 4x Stormboy
• 4x Choppa
4x Slugga

Strat would be to always turn 1 waaagh. Use Zodgrod, kommandos, and da jump squad of boys turn 1 to pin the opponent in, then basically keep sending in wave after wave of boys while grots and storm boys focus on primary/secondary.

What's your plan when you don't go first or face infiltrators?

RedNoak wrote:
Is badruk really that usefull? Haven't played him yet, but he costs the same as 5 flashgitz. I mean at that point... Aren't 5 extra snazzguns better then rerolls? Also the rerolls won't work if they're embarked right? Do you guys just play em slogging?

10 flashgits in a trukk + mek for +1toH... Thats the same cost as 10 gits + badruk on foot. As are 10 + 5 flashgitz on foot.

Reckon the trick here is to put badrukk and 10 gitz in the trukk, drive up and disembark within 6'' of the target to get his -1T aura in play as well; my maths says if you do this, you can wipe 10 marines and their attached character, which probably makes your points back. Then overwatch in opponents turn, kill some more stuff before you get got.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
ah, yeah fi you ignore either of those penalties then yeah i see why it'd be a problem.
Only played 3 games of 10th so far and havnt encountered any indirect except tau's missiles.

Let me give an example, you probably know this, the rukkatruck can fire at 36 it's main gun indirect, it get's already natively the ignore cover, also get's the +1 to hit against infantry ability, so shooting at infantry you just ignored all the penalties of indirect, add a mek and you now are shooting with +1 to infantry and no penalty to anything else. But at 110 + 45pts this is not a very good platform for D6+6 blast..

I been thinking on the dragsta since that game with necrons, it's gun with precision and mek + it's amazing mobility at 85pts is starting to be very interesting.. i am going to give it a spin + deth dread next game, load up on nobz and beast snaggas and see what i can do.

 PaddyMick wrote:
@tadpole looks great mate, can't argue with 100 boyz. What about vs fast opponents who go first? Try and block them with kommandos? get in behind then with snikrot and da jump?
Good luck, Take some painkillers for the back ache ;0

Cheers mate! Ya still trying to work out the kinks of what would be best in those scenarios. If they have infiltrators that are able to block my da jump squad then I was thinking I’d use ere we go on the warboss squad for a 10” move so they’d have a 22-23” charge threat range essentially to clog up one of the side obj. If it was daemons going first they likely have at least 2 big monsters that go 12” that’d be able to snag two obj but luckily they only have oc5 and a lot of their infantry like daemonettes and blood letters are fairly easy for boys to kill and they don’t do much damage to us in return.

The nightmare matchup I think would be a 14 war dog chaos knight list. I think green tide probably just loses like 9/10 automatically. The avenger chain cannons will just whittle us down too quickly and brigands will hit on 3’s in cc and probably have little incentive to fall back since we can’t do much damage to them.

Based on my experience from last game and some of the discussions in the thread so far, I'm having my next 1500 point game, this time with the actual Leviathan card pack rather than the basic Only War scenario from the core rules. This is the kind of list I have drafted so far:



The idea is that one trukk will be transporting the 2 units of Nobz and Warbosses and the other two will be carrying the Beast Snagga boyz, one of which has a Beastboss. Gretchin hold the backfield while Badrukk and his Gitz go into Strategic reserve to outflank and shoot up ideal targets. Kommandos infiltrate up the board to hold objectives and put pressure early on before I get my T2 WAAAGH! on.

I'm wondering if I should fit in Snikrot somehow into this list or if dropping one of the Snagga units for Squighog Riders might be a better idea. Haven't tried Beast Snaggas yet, so would love some feedback if that's something I need to go all in with or if they work out in terms of being sprinkled into different armies.

Nobs with PK

WARBOSS or PAINBOY?

I have already 2 Beastbosses and Mozdrog in the list so I feel I have enough of melee power and think about my 10Nobz blob like about a central objective more turns fighters.

And 5+++ and regain D3 models per game seems fine againts mortal wounds flying around.

Of course, there is an alternative based on MANz with MA Big Mek.

But invu in shooting seems to be not enough

I still prefer the warboss because of the -1 to wound. It pushes nobz' durability to a level where main guns of tanks have be pointed at them in order to get rid of them quickly while most anit-infantry guns just bounce off.

Just to be absolutely sure

Grots with Zogrod sitting in the Transport (Battlewagon, Killtank, Nauts, Stompa…) giving this transport Scout 9” ability. Right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sounds like a fun Stompy plan…


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh no! It is DEDICATED Transport. So just a Trukk.

Damn!

 Tomsug wrote:
Just to be absolutely sure

Grots with Zogrod sitting in the Transport (Battlewagon, Killtank, Nauts, Stompa…) giving this transport Scout 9” ability. Right?

I'm no expert, but my read of this said that only works in a trukk since the scouts rules specifes "dedicated transport", which made me sad because my grots prefer to ride around in their grotzwagon (battlewagon) acting a fool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh lol, sorry, just now saw that you already said that.

Grots seem pretty useful this edition.
Having a couple of small squads of them sitting on your backfield objectives and harvesting command points looks handy.

Is it worth piling a ten-grot-mob with da Red Gobbo, err, i mean Zogrod into a truck to zoom zoom onto the battlefield and disembark on an objective T1?

The grotz become solid across the board, in melee they have some decent durability close to the nobz.

They also fight a lot better for only 125pts.

The question is, if it is worth it?

In general your packing 2 to 3, one of those will be in contested vp. it might or not pay itself, not sure. Haven't tried.

Coh Magnussen wrote:
Is it worth piling a ten-grot-mob with da Red Gobbo, err, i mean Zogrod into a truck to zoom zoom onto the battlefield and disembark on an objective T1?

With Zodgrod, they are fast enough to just run there

You can take 3 Kommandos incl. Zagstruk and 1 grots with Zogrod in 4 Trukks and Scout 9”.

 Jidmah wrote:

Coh Magnussen wrote:
Is it worth piling a ten-grot-mob with da Red Gobbo, err, i mean Zogrod into a truck to zoom zoom onto the battlefield and disembark on an objective T1?

With Zodgrod, they are fast enough to just run there

was about to say the same.

You dont really need a trukk with scout move 9 just to get to an objective.

 Tomsug wrote:
You can take 3 Kommandos incl. Zagstruk and 1 grots with Zogrod in 4 Trukks and Scout 9”.

Why though?

I get how all the internet is aflame with trukks being super cheap, but they also do super nothing outside of tankshock and those cost valuable CP.

Putting a unit which can make use of the speed or durability into trukks, sure, but I'm not convinced that spamming trukks is actually better than spending the same amount of points on mek guns or any of the other dozen mobility options that we have.

Yeah, I'd suggest that Kommandos don't need Trukks and neither do Grots with Zodgrod. They're fast enough as is.

A mass of scouting Trukks could do some tricks worth considering though. Scouting 9" leaves the back end of the Trukk in easy range of a non scouting unit to embark. Just disembark the scout units, move other non-scouting units up and embark, then rush the fully loaded Trukks forward (along with the disembarked scouts). Finishing your Trukks move parked bumper to bumper would stop a lot of wrapping/block access to objectives.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:
You can take 3 Kommandos incl. Zagstruk and 1 grots with Zogrod in 4 Trukks and Scout 9”.

Why though?

I get how all the internet is aflame with trukks being super cheap, but they also do super nothing outside of tankshock and those cost valuable CP.

Putting a unit which can make use of the speed or durability into trukks, sure, but I'm not convinced that spamming trukks is actually better than spending the same amount of points on mek guns or any of the other dozen mobility options that we have.

Utility I suppose. A cheap transport can stop a unit from shooting by charging. (as long as they don't have fall back and shoot but that seems rarer these days) If the enemy doesn't apply anti tank to the truck it can charge and recharge a falling back unit all game. Throw a couple at a target, fully surround the unit and you can force them to roll for traveling through models.

cody.d. wrote:
Utility I suppose. A cheap transport can stop a unit from shooting by charging. (as long as they don't have fall back and shoot but that seems rarer these days) If the enemy doesn't apply anti tank to the truck it can charge and recharge a falling back unit all game. Throw a couple at a target, fully surround the unit and you can force them to roll for traveling through models.

Sorry, but I don't see this happening. A trukk can be shut down by any random screening unit charging it, a combat character or monster will easily tear it apart in two fight phases and it can be shot at while it is in combat with most units.
You don't even need dedicated anti-tank to kill trukks, but if they do point those big guns at them they won't stand a chance of survival. Unless you are following some sort of target saturation strategy (rigs? battlewagon? dreads?), shooting those things at trukks isn't even a bad choice over shooting them at infantry instead.

Well, and surrounding anything of value in that matter requires so many stars to align, might as well just pick a gambit and hope for 30VP because of nothing but lucky dice. We are still talking about the same game where seven to eight buggies instantly create a traffic jam on the board, trukks are no different in that regard.
I'd also wager that 200 points invested in other units would have just killed the same unit you worked so hard to surround just to have it roll five 3+ and escape unscathed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insularum wrote:
A mass of scouting Trukks could do some tricks worth considering though. Scouting 9" leaves the back end of the Trukk in easy range of a non scouting unit to embark. Just disembark the scout units, move other non-scouting units up and embark, then rush the fully loaded Trukks forward (along with the disembarked scouts). Finishing your Trukks move parked bumper to bumper would stop a lot of wrapping/block access to objectives.

Zodgrod's Supa-Runts are the only scout unit we have though, so a scouting trukk clocks in at 175. Two SJD which can deep-strike wherever the heck they want each turn are 170.
The only units I see gaining any benefit from those shenanigans would be flash gits or burnas, but if you add their points, you are firmly into "this could have been a morkanaut" territory.

IMO if you bring Zodgrod, you absolutely should bring 20+2 gretchin with him to get the most out of his insane buffs.

Mainly I've just been using trukks to position my melee units I want to do damage with. Move them up out of LOS, then pile out. then yeah, they zip around doing "i'm not worth killing anymore" shenanigans as has been their role since time immemorial.

Every battewagon I was using to deliver nobz/flash gitz/MANz I've now swapped out for a trukk.

Burna Boyz are the most definitive value "actually use the trukk for more than just insulation turn 1" unit IMO. Make good use of the new disembark and shoot after moving rule, and they like the ability to hop in and zip somewhere else.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:
You can take 3 Kommandos incl. Zagstruk and 1 grots with Zogrod in 4 Trukks and Scout 9”.

Why though?

I get how all the internet is aflame with trukks being super cheap, but they also do super nothing outside of tankshock and those cost valuable CP.

Putting a unit which can make use of the speed or durability into trukks, sure, but I'm not convinced that spamming trukks is actually better than spending the same amount of points on mek guns or any of the other dozen mobility options that we have.

Honestly? No idea. Just surfing around and discovering the options.

Trukks can do a lot of stuff. Roadbloking in the first place.

I ´m looking at the mission cards and honestly - you need a lot of cheap units to do the stuff. Another role for the trukks.

Some more GT results: https://www.tabletoparchive.com/blog/wednesdays-winning-40k-lists-weighted-dice-and-two-weeks-of-10th

Two Ork lists placed. One Trukk spam with Squighog boyz, the other max Squighogs with Snaggas in Rigs

Don’t forget the other option is bigtrakk if you want a trukk that’s slightly more durable and has better shooting and built in mini ramming speed. It does come at a 50% premium in cost even if it’s still relatively cheap.

So it looks like Eldar got nerfed for their Fate Dice. Weird part is that instead of changing the wording for indirect fire and towering, they just upped points cost for those units instead. Unfortunately for us, the Morkanaut got hit with this points bump, so its 350 now. Kinda suprised that nothing else for us went up any higher besides that? Still not happy though since the Morkanaut wasn't super competitive by any stretch of the imagination. Makes the Dred Mob that much harder to play now.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/05/warhammer-40000-updates-changes-to-strands-of-fate-towering-units-and-more/

 Grimskul wrote:
So it looks like Eldar got nerfed for their Fate Dice. Weird part is that instead of changing the wording for indirect fire and towering, they just upped points cost for those units instead. Unfortunately for us, the Morkanaut got hit with this points bump, so its 350 now. Kinda suprised that nothing else for us went up any higher besides that? Still not happy though since the Morkanaut wasn't super competitive by any stretch of the imagination. Makes the Dred Mob that much harder to play now.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/05/warhammer-40000-updates-changes-to-strands-of-fate-towering-units-and-more/

Gorkanaut is better anyway but ya it’s a silly bump…(I half expected the swuigbuggy to get caught in that nerf net but it didn’t) biggest news was the fact they said this is going to be the only balance update until the fall…. With a minor errata update end of July… so don’t expect any changes for at least 3+ months.

New points are out and.. The Morkanaut is now up to 150 points?

What kind of weed are they smoking at GW lol

On the other hand, neither the vortex beast or any other unit from custodians or thousand sons even went up.

But i suppose this is.. fine? I mean we are not hampered in any way at all it just appears that they needed a scape goat and just slashed the morkanaut because... well why not.

Up of Morkanaut is a mathematical side effect of Towering Unit increased points I think.

 thori wrote:
Up of Morkanaut is a mathematical side effect of Towering Unit increased points I think.

You are possibly right, but the gorkanaut isnt up in points. Nor is the stompa.

And the Morkanaut sucks in general at shooting. It looks fine on paper hitting on 4s during the waagh turn but it has low AP and few shots, and swingy damage.


I managed to kill 1 thousand sons terminator during its entire shooting. Thats hardly quality content right there. You kill more terminators with 10 beast snagga boys going in to melee lol

Beardedragon wrote:
New points are out and.. The Morkanaut is now up to 150 points?

What kind of weed are they smoking at GW lol

On the other hand, neither the vortex beast or any other unit from custodians or thousand sons even went up.

But i suppose this is.. fine? I mean we are not hampered in any way at all it just appears that they needed a scape goat and just slashed the morkanaut because... well why not.

To be fair orks are so far performing ok. Orks main issue was knights and those got a points blow up both versions and chaos knights weren’t even as bad. Eldar are still strong but got hit; surprised they didn’t get more points bumps. Even guard got smashed a bit… eldar still might be a problem and GSC are currently rocking right now. I don’t see errata changing a whole bunch except fixing issues like ghaz in trukk.

gungo wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
New points are out and.. The Morkanaut is now up to 150 points?

What kind of weed are they smoking at GW lol

On the other hand, neither the vortex beast or any other unit from custodians or thousand sons even went up.

But i suppose this is.. fine? I mean we are not hampered in any way at all it just appears that they needed a scape goat and just slashed the morkanaut because... well why not.

To be fair orks are so far performing ok. Orks main issue was knights and those got a points blow up both versions and chaos knights weren’t even as bad. Eldar are still strong but got hit; surprised they didn’t get more points bumps. Even guard got smashed a bit… eldar still might be a problem and GSC are currently rocking right now. I don’t see errata changing a whole bunch except fixing issues like ghaz in trukk.

the errata didnt fix ghaz and trukks though.

Nor was the morkanaut notable good or anything to warrent a point increase.

I agree we are doing fine over all so nothing has really been hampered for us, but to nerf the morkanaut is just weird.

Beardedragon wrote:

gungo wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
New points are out and.. The Morkanaut is now up to 150 points?

What kind of weed are they smoking at GW lol

On the other hand, neither the vortex beast or any other unit from custodians or thousand sons even went up.

But i suppose this is.. fine? I mean we are not hampered in any way at all it just appears that they needed a scape goat and just slashed the morkanaut because... well why not.

To be fair orks are so far performing ok. Orks main issue was knights and those got a points blow up both versions and chaos knights weren’t even as bad. Eldar are still strong but got hit; surprised they didn’t get more points bumps. Even guard got smashed a bit… eldar still might be a problem and GSC are currently rocking right now. I don’t see errata changing a whole bunch except fixing issues like ghaz in trukk.

the errata didnt fix ghaz and trukks though.

Nor was the morkanaut notable good or anything to warrent a point increase.

I agree we are doing fine over all so nothing has really been hampered for us, but to nerf the morkanaut is just weird.

Likely a victim of towering... it is a lot worst then it looks, because GW just made a blanket nerf through points to most indirect and towering. Not a fan. The only decent change was the one done to fate dice.

Yes the Morkanaut got a price hike, but was anyone really using it? I suppose it's the main thing we could run that benefits from towering outside of the Stompa.

I'm taking this as acknowledgment that the Stompa is once again over costed

Be happy, squigbuggy is untouched !! 🤣

Beardedragon wrote:

gungo wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
New points are out and.. The Morkanaut is now up to 150 points?

What kind of weed are they smoking at GW lol

On the other hand, neither the vortex beast or any other unit from custodians or thousand sons even went up.

But i suppose this is.. fine? I mean we are not hampered in any way at all it just appears that they needed a scape goat and just slashed the morkanaut because... well why not.

To be fair orks are so far performing ok. Orks main issue was knights and those got a points blow up both versions and chaos knights weren’t even as bad. Eldar are still strong but got hit; surprised they didn’t get more points bumps. Even guard got smashed a bit… eldar still might be a problem and GSC are currently rocking right now. I don’t see errata changing a whole bunch except fixing issues like ghaz in trukk.

the errata didnt fix ghaz and trukks though.

Nor was the morkanaut notable good or anything to warrent a point increase.

I agree we are doing fine over all so nothing has really been hampered for us, but to nerf the morkanaut is just weird.

the article stated this was a balance pass and an errata will come in late July (but will not include balance changes). This was not the errata. What I was talking about was that errata should fix trukk and ghaz issue.

Weirdly they fixed Ghaz in a bunch of transports but not trucks in the first errata.

 LunarSol wrote:
Weirdly they fixed Ghaz in a bunch of transports but not trucks in the first errata.

Afaik the current errate is only supposed to fix the actual printed cards, no fixes beyond that.

10 flash gitz on a squiggoth (dinosaur in a pirate hat, with a peg leg and a hook on his horn?), or 10 gitz plus kaptin badrukk in a truck?

Because it's the vehicle firing the guns and not the unit does a leader's effect work when embarked? If not I'd say a trukk and mek may be better. Use the trukk to move and stay at the limit of your range while the mek tops up the trukk and gives you the bs4. Unless you can win in a fistfight I guess.

Unit abilities have no effect on their transport. It heavily limits whats good to sit in a vehicle beyond getting across the board.
Other issue is the Mek +1 to hit has almost no effect since all of our guns that wanna park in a transport are Heavy, which is part of the weapon so it does apply to the transport, and getting +2 to hit is not that useful.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Unit abilities have no effect on their transport. It heavily limits whats good to sit in a vehicle beyond getting across the board.
Other issue is the Mek +1 to hit has almost no effect since all of our guns that wanna park in a transport are Heavy, which is part of the weapon so it does apply to the transport, and getting +2 to hit is not that useful.

But it does let you use the mobility of the trukk while still hitting on 4s. Keeping out of melta range, getting better lines of sight and moving out of line of sight of things that can easily pop it. Lets it act a bit like a skirmishing unit rather than an emplacement.

This does come to personal preference of course, I enjoy keeping things mobile. It's why gunline armies don't interest me too much.

Coh Magnussen wrote:
10 flash gitz on a squiggoth (dinosaur in a pirate hat, with a peg leg and a hook on his horn?), or 10 gitz plus kaptin badrukk in a truck?

Personally I'd go for the Squiggoth, but the Badrukk/Trukk combo is better for outright deleting units.

Why not just let the flash gitz and badrukk come in from reserve? Its not like you can use the full rerolls to hit when embarked anyway so their shooting from a transport hitting on 5s with no rerolls is kinda meh.

Sure you can jump them out after it has moved and still shoot, but why not just come in from reserve then, and save the points?

10 flash gitz on a squiggoth (dinosaur in a pirate hat, with a peg leg and a hook on his horn?)

If you really have this conversion, always take the squiggoth - imho, rule of cool trumps efficiency every time for dedicated ork players!

I do not yet have the conversion, but I really want to make it lol. And my kromlech pirate grots need a ride...

Beardedragon wrote:
Why not just let the flash gitz and badrukk come in from reserve? Its not like you can use the full rerolls to hit when embarked anyway so their shooting from a transport hitting on 5s with no rerolls is kinda meh.

Sure you can jump them out after it has moved and still shoot, but why not just come in from reserve then, and save the points?

Well reserve is t2 earliest. Also trukk has other uses so it's not just carry once and then no gain.

And if ork is planning about 250pts or so other strategic reserves won't fit there.

 Jidmah wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
Utility I suppose. A cheap transport can stop a unit from shooting by charging. (as long as they don't have fall back and shoot but that seems rarer these days) If the enemy doesn't apply anti tank to the truck it can charge and recharge a falling back unit all game. Throw a couple at a target, fully surround the unit and you can force them to roll for traveling through models.

Sorry, but I don't see this happening. A trukk can be shut down by any random screening unit charging it, a combat character or monster will easily tear it apart in two fight phases and it can be shot at while it is in combat with most units.
You don't even need dedicated anti-tank to kill trukks, but if they do point those big guns at them they won't stand a chance of survival. Unless you are following some sort of target saturation strategy (rigs? battlewagon? dreads?), shooting those things at trukks isn't even a bad choice over shooting them at infantry instead.

Well, and surrounding anything of value in that matter requires so many stars to align, might as well just pick a gambit and hope for 30VP because of nothing but lucky dice. We are still talking about the same game where seven to eight buggies instantly create a traffic jam on the board, trukks are no different in that regard.
I'd also wager that 200 points invested in other units would have just killed the same unit you worked so hard to surround just to have it roll five 3+ and escape unscathed.

Please note the tri pointing with trukks isn't an all the time thing, just another possible use. It would also likely happen with the unit they offloaded. Boys from the front, trukk from the back or something.

If my opponent is firing decent anti tank at a trukk, we're laughing, if they're not and letting it be a pain in the backside, we're laughing.

Personally I'm expecting to see a lot of dedicated transports this edition. They're cheap enough that you can let them do their main job of moving a unit then be viewed as highly disposable.

You mentioned shutting them down via screening units. The trukk is the screening unit though, so no big loss if it gets screened and if you happen to charge something of value it can leave other units free to act.

Oh ya trukks are unquestionably the best transport in the game with rhinos being a relatively close second and then ghost arks (though those aren’t really even taken for the transport ability). I just auto take 5-6 if I know I’ll be playing a semi competitive game. Only thing to be careful about though is making sure your only taking 2-3 characters max with that many trukks otherwise your giving your opponent easy fixed secondaries.

Question is what to take in them. I think boyz are better spent in battlewagons as to my mind the best use of boyz is to take 2 characters in 20 strong units. My personal combination being warboss and warbanner so you can get those two turns where a boss swings hard.

Burner boyz appeal to me as contents for a trukk, very indipendant, not needing any support and have the potential to take over objectives on the flank. Perhaps 5 meganobz and a character? Or just 6 of them.

This comes down to personal taste but I prefer to have cheap contents in an expensive transport and an expensive unit in a cheap transport, assuming there's no special combo/rules interaction. I hate having a too big a target on a unit to make it easy for marines to hit it with oaths of moment for an example.

cody.d. wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Unit abilities have no effect on their transport. It heavily limits whats good to sit in a vehicle beyond getting across the board.
Other issue is the Mek +1 to hit has almost no effect since all of our guns that wanna park in a transport are Heavy, which is part of the weapon so it does apply to the transport, and getting +2 to hit is not that useful.

But it does let you use the mobility of the trukk while still hitting on 4s. Keeping out of melta range, getting better lines of sight and moving out of line of sight of things that can easily pop it. Lets it act a bit like a skirmishing unit rather than an emplacement.

This does come to personal preference of course, I enjoy keeping things mobile. It's why gunline armies don't interest me too much.

They do not hit on 4s.
Loota guns, as are any heavy gun, 1 less BS than normal and Heavy offsets it when they dont move.
Its the same reason why moving with heavy weapons in the past and shooting -1 to hit targets wasnt a big deal since it capped at -1 anyway.
Deffguns are BS6, Heavy is +1, Mek is +1. You cannot have more than +/-1 BS (or wound i think).

Ah, thought you were referring to flashgitz. Not sure if I'd bother with lootas atm. Do they have a niche?

Currently still fiddling around a bit with what i want a somewhat competitive list at 1k points to look like...

After playing a few games and seeing what works and doesnt work for me, this is what i came up:

Alternatively drop the Headwoppas and the Stormboys and grab a SJD instead, but that feels like a bit of a gamble in regards to damage output and maneuverability.

The low model count worries me a bit however, as i feel like i miss a lot of OC in there. Any ideas what to swap in and out of the army?

A single SJD is a gamble, two is dead necron lords

The army looks solid as it is, flash gits and squighogs are all-rounders while stormboyz grab objectives and gretchin generate CP. Little room for improvement IMO.

Tollwut wrote:
Currently still fiddling around a bit with what i want a somewhat competitive list at 1k points to look like...

After playing a few games and seeing what works and doesnt work for me, this is what i came up:

Spoiler:

- Beastboss on Squig + Killchoppa - 185p
- Badrukk + 10x Flashgitz + Trukk - 95 + 190 + 50 = 335 p
- Nob on Smasha Squig + 3x Squighog Boys - 110 + 75 = 185p
- Nob on Smasha Squig + 3x Squighog Boys - 110 + 75 = 185p
- 10x Stormboyz - 65p
- 11x Gretchin - 45p

Total: 1000p

Alternatively drop the Headwoppas and the Stormboys and grab a SJD instead, but that feels like a bit of a gamble in regards to damage output and maneuverability.

The low model count worries me a bit however, as i feel like i miss a lot of OC in there. Any ideas what to swap in and out of the army?

Looks pretty solid my dude. If it was me I'd probably drop a smash nob and with that points add another grot squad, upgrade squigboss to mozrog and give headwoppa to the other smasha nob, but potayto potahto.

cody.d. wrote:
Ah, thought you were referring to flashgitz. Not sure if I'd bother with lootas atm. Do they have a niche?

They might have a niche in shooting some units off of objectives with full rerolls to hit, with a shokk attack gun to crack harder targets.

But Flash Gits are by far the superior choice.

 Jidmah wrote:
A single SJD is a gamble, two is dead necron lords

The army looks solid as it is, flash gits and squighogs are all-rounders while stormboyz grab objectives and gretchin generate CP. Little room for improvement IMO.

Thanks! Double SJD could be fun... Maybe something for the future, to be as obnoxious as possible and run circles around everyone

Interestingly, across 4 games my grots never generated a single CP... But such is the way of the dice :p

 Jidmah wrote:
A single SJD is a gamble, two is dead necron lords

I wish :(

Vs my regular necron opponents, they just 1 CP bring the hero back at half wounds.

I am really not liking the lists that I've had success with on Orks. The lists that work well for me are ones that forego trying to kill anything meaningful and just play to objectives. This style of play is boring... I wanna krump. But it seems we do not have the tools to punch through anything remotely durable. Flash Gitz seems to be the only unit we have that I've found to punch up.

Tittliewinks22 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
A single SJD is a gamble, two is dead necron lords

I wish :(

Vs my regular necron opponents, they just 1 CP bring the hero back at half wounds.

I am really not liking the lists that I've had success with on Orks. The lists that work well for me are ones that forego trying to kill anything meaningful and just play to objectives. This style of play is boring... I wanna krump. But it seems we do not have the tools to punch through anything remotely durable. Flash Gitz seems to be the only unit we have that I've found to punch up.

I can relate to that feeling. I really enjoyed bringing buggy-heavy lists, but currently only the SJD seems worth bringing. Squigbuggy disappointed me other than chucking a mine into someones face if you get charged and the scrapjet just... Doesnt do anything?

Competitive Innovations out

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-10th-aeldari-annihilation/?fbclid=IwAR1hyfS7oOkHZOcU4Jsesqa91px4JRNQUvOkRmgkVhn-vTOnQ4J5Rc8vubw_aem_Ae0sIG_HsIsAKWUjgbDwEpSZgXkHjnlqjt0koKd4ZTK-imym_z15sUfS-rd-N_ZzQU4

One ork player and his name and list lost in translation. So here he is - oldschool boyz list with tons o trukks.
Element Games Grand Slam 1 - Tom Higginbottom




Automatically Appended Next Post:
1 simple Warboss, 6 Trukks, tons of small squads of whatever to score.

No dakka. No krumpin. Just scoring.

I'd say almost 800 points worth of squighogs and nobz is plenty of krumpin'.

Yep, that looks like a similar shape to what I've been seeing success with.

TBH - lootas have not done badly in the games i've played. Comparative to almost all our other shooting units, their output with the re-roll is miles better. Even outside of the 1/2 range.

That says more about the quality of our other shooting than their super high quality - but I've stuck a 10-man or 15-man up on the roof of a ruin and stuck a Painboy in with them and had them do pretty good work.

One thing I'm wondering about is why no one picks up the free rokkits. Losing that one attack on a boy/kommando you can just remove as first casualty seems like a good trade for a hand full of extra rokkit hits across the army per turn.

Tollwut wrote:

Tittliewinks22 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
A single SJD is a gamble, two is dead necron lords

I wish :(

Vs my regular necron opponents, they just 1 CP bring the hero back at half wounds.

I am really not liking the lists that I've had success with on Orks. The lists that work well for me are ones that forego trying to kill anything meaningful and just play to objectives. This style of play is boring... I wanna krump. But it seems we do not have the tools to punch through anything remotely durable. Flash Gitz seems to be the only unit we have that I've found to punch up.

I can relate to that feeling. I really enjoyed bringing buggy-heavy lists, but currently only the SJD seems worth bringing. Squigbuggy disappointed me other than chucking a mine into someones face if you get charged and the scrapjet just... Doesnt do anything?

I'm sorry - maybe I need to clean my eyeballs, am I reading correctly that people think the Shokkjump Dragsta is...good?

It is the #1 buggy that I am just 100% baffled by. Compared to other sniper units, its average damage output seems ridiculously small. What am I missing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
One thing I'm wondering about is why no one picks up the free rokkits. Losing that one attack on a boy/kommando you can just remove as first casualty seems like a good trade for a hand full of extra rokkit hits across the army per turn.

yeah Ive been running "Assorted Rokkits" in all my lists. Theyve been quite handy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

cody.d. wrote:
Because it's the vehicle firing the guns and not the unit does a leader's effect work when embarked? If not I'd say a trukk and mek may be better. Use the trukk to move and stay at the limit of your range while the mek tops up the trukk and gives you the bs4. Unless you can win in a fistfight I guess.

Unfortunately flash gitz staying in trukks eat it from every angle. Things that dont work:

-the Gun Crazy Showoffs rule from the datasheet
-Badrukk's reroll
-cant use Ammo Runt (also on datasheet)

Because 50% of your successful hits are going to be crits, and badrukk gives you a full reroll on rolls of 1-4, you end up with an absolutely absurd amount of crits generating Lethal Hits and bonus hits, resulting in badrukk and co managing to pull off some frankly zany numbers.

Ignoring Heavy (because youll be hopping out of a trukk) 10 gitz+badrukk with the ammo runt deal 18 damage to an imperial knight.

The two things the trukk supplies that reserves don’t is first turn shooting even if it lacks the abilities and the fact the turn they disembark they can do so within badrukk -1 toughness range. That’s a useful buff for a str 6 gun. Making those toughness 6 or 7 targets easier to wound as well as those toughness 12 knights.

 the_scotsman wrote:

I'm sorry - maybe I need to clean my eyeballs, am I reading correctly that people think the Shokkjump Dragsta is...good?

It is the #1 buggy that I am just 100% baffled by. Compared to other sniper units, its average damage output seems ridiculously small. What am I missing?

It's our best precision gun. Don't ignore precision with the amount of character's running around in bodyguard, being able to remove one or 2 can be a game changer. The other is that their cheap at 85pts and also they can steal objectives with their relocate, better then bikes and they cost almost the same.

Was the consensus that Dragsta could fire its main gun while advancing and thus relocating?

Its not an assault weapon, but i recall seeing a rule somewhere stating that relocating counts as a normal move, thus one should be able to fire it.

Beardedragon wrote:
Was the consensus that Dragsta could fire its main gun while advancing and thus relocating?

Its not an assault weapon, but i recall seeing a rule somewhere stating that relocating counts as a normal move, thus one should be able to fire it.

The rules commentary states that a model set up on the battlefield counts as having made a normal move. As the SJD is removed and then placed, you can argue that this is then a normal move, but obviously you can also argue the other way around that it had to advance before that can even happen.

Majority of people seem to accept teleport+shooting tho, as everything else is just really stupid 😄

Tollwut wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Was the consensus that Dragsta could fire its main gun while advancing and thus relocating?

Its not an assault weapon, but i recall seeing a rule somewhere stating that relocating counts as a normal move, thus one should be able to fire it.

The rules commentary states that a model set up on the battlefield counts as having made a normal move. As the SJD is removed and then placed, you can argue that this is then a normal move, but obviously you can also argue the other way around that it had to advance before that can even happen.

Majority of people seem to accept teleport+shooting tho, as everything else is just really stupid 😄

I mean, the inability shoot if it advances is really fething stupid, but i also havent used the dragsta at all so i havent got at clue about the consensus. So i was hoping people here knew.

In the end i guess it isnt too important. The buggy seem really trashy. 1 single shot? You would need to invest in at least 2 of these and then odds are 1 of them will either miss or not wound its target.

 the_scotsman wrote:
I'm sorry - maybe I need to clean my eyeballs, am I reading correctly that people think the Shokkjump Dragsta is...good?

It is the #1 buggy that I am just 100% baffled by. Compared to other sniper units, its average damage output seems ridiculously small. What am I missing?

I wouldn't go as far as saying it is "good", but at least it gets its job done. It basically serves double purpose by being able to snipe characters while also jumping wherever it wants to score VP.
Some character combos are very difficult to kill for orks, so having a pair of sniper buggies around can remove a defensive buff character that might have prevented you from using the challenge stratagem.

Just like all other buggies, I feel like SJD were priced as if they were speeder or trukk class vehicles, without considering how efficient weapons like melta or plasma are at killing them because of T7.

Shokkjumphas yet to do anything meaningful for me.
Either i miss the 1 shot, it fails to wound, or i did like 1 damage and regardless it immediately blows up afterwords.

Rather take another KBB, since the -1 to hit has been having massive impact for me.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Shokkjumphas yet to do anything meaningful for me.
Either i miss the 1 shot, it fails to wound, or i did like 1 damage and regardless it immediately blows up afterwords.

Rather take another KBB, since the -1 to hit has been having massive impact for me.

Agreed, KBB is the only one I think has any use since none of them have any meaningful damage might as well go for best utility.

But is it worth bringing a KBB for 85 points just to give -1 to hit as well? Its damage is pitiful.

Yeah, ive brought a kbb every game and never been sad about it

nice baneblade.

nice knight castellan.

nice death star.

-1 to hit :^)

Thats where it shines.
Big bad expensive thing? -1 to hit.

For some reason its not specifying shooting and doesnt have a "except <keyword>" type clause. Even if it didnt wound you.
1 hit got through? cool, -1 to hit.

Do you usually just bring a single one then?

Minimum 1, though im quick to add a 2nd if i have ~90pts left.

Except against knights actually getting the -1 to hit to be applied against more than 1 big threat unit is unlikely

The two debuffing buggies may be my fave. Yeah they may not do much damage but if they let more of your army get into combat. It's why I'll probably have a snazzwagon in many lists, move it nice and close to a unit I'm wanting to charge to give them that nice -1 to hit in combat too. Maybe try to hover around and tag as much as you can with that aura.

anyone try the grot tanks yet? was thinking an 8 man unit with all skorchas would be a pretty solid overwatch piece and super fun.

Beardedragon wrote:
Do you usually just bring a single one then?

Yep. Makes a good wildcard mobile unit to drive up to a sideboard objective and be a little gak.

 flaming tadpole wrote:
anyone try the grot tanks yet? was thinking an 8 man unit with all skorchas would be a pretty solid overwatch piece and super fun.

Yes, they form the basis of my Grot army.
I only have 1/4 armed with either a Big Shoota or Scorcha. I built them like this last edition so that if a unit did find itself in CC it still had some sort of shooting option. They also served to absorb the MWs a KMB shot would cause on a hit roll of 1.
3 out of every 4 tanks have either a KMB or Rokkit. Tank #4 is carries a Big shoota/scorcha.

While I own all the Grot Tanks I need to field 3 full squadrons? In practice I've found full units of 8 to be a bit unwieldy to maneuver about most boards. And of course pts must be spent on other stuff....
Scorchas are OK, & they certainly shine on overwatch since they skip the rolling to hit step. But I much prefer to avoid CC by wiping out targets via massed KMB/Rokkit fire 1st. And I often find myself fighting Knights, tanks, large Tyranids, etc that aren't too concerned about Scorcha damage. Eating a good volley of KMB/Rokkit fire however....

I like the Squigbuggy. It´s enough damage to threaten small infiltrating/scout units. The other buggies I struggle with.

Anyone tried some 1st turn Waaagh! Alpha strike with Bikes? Just to pressure opponent to stay in their deploy on a flank. Thinking WB on Bike/Deffkilla + Bikes

 Scactha wrote:
I like the Squigbuggy. It´s enough damage to threaten small infiltrating/scout units. The other buggies I struggle with.

Anyone tried some 1st turn Waaagh! Alpha strike with Bikes? Just to pressure opponent to stay in their deploy on a flank. Thinking WB on Bike/Deffkilla + Bikes

Local guy tried alpha with bikes versus necron last saturday.. wasn't pretty (2 wounds in one single round, we are talking full squad of bikes), it followed them with meganobz on trucks with big mek... any way the result was not stellar.. i am also coming to the conclusion i need trucks. End of the day BS 5 with twin linked does F all.. Even the meganobs were bad! Full squad could not kill barge with double saws.. 12 A on WS4 it's like 6 attacks...

Is it me or melee is really weak this edition, most of the damage i have, either fumbles or get shot out of the table. honestly a tad frustrated with the current loss streak... live and learn i guess, will try the other bugies to collect the -1Hit maybe it helps, plus spam trucks.

ccs wrote:

 flaming tadpole wrote:
anyone try the grot tanks yet? was thinking an 8 man unit with all skorchas would be a pretty solid overwatch piece and super fun.

Yes, they form the basis of my Grot army.
I only have 1/4 armed with either a Big Shoota or Scorcha. I built them like this last edition so that if a unit did find itself in CC it still had some sort of shooting option. They also served to absorb the MWs a KMB shot would cause on a hit roll of 1.
3 out of every 4 tanks have either a KMB or Rokkit. Tank #4 is carries a Big shoota/scorcha.

While I own all the Grot Tanks I need to field 3 full squadrons? In practice I've found full units of 8 to be a bit unwieldy to maneuver about most boards. And of course pts must be spent on other stuff....
Scorchas are OK, & they certainly shine on overwatch since they skip the rolling to hit step. But I much prefer to avoid CC by wiping out targets via massed KMB/Rokkit fire 1st. And I often find myself fighting Knights, tanks, large Tyranids, etc that aren't too concerned about Scorcha damage. Eating a good volley of KMB/Rokkit fire however....

Noice, ya was getting ready to order some grot tanks to start a proper grot army, I could see a full squadron being a bit rough to move with especially with the terrain increase but was hopeful it could work out.

Forceride wrote:
Is it me or melee is really weak this edition, most of the damage i have, either fumbles or get shot out of the table. honestly a tad frustrated with the current loss streak... live and learn i guess, will try the other bugies to collect the -1Hit maybe it helps, plus spam trucks.

I've played a good amount of games thus far and have mostly come to the conclusion that if you want to build an army around actually hitting hard you need ghaz for makari's lethal buff. When I was running some math a 10 man nob squad w/ warboss getting lethal's + 1cp exploding 5's would average 50 pk wounds and one shot a lychguard squad getting a 4++/5+++ along with one of the characters. They would also one shot any knight. With that in my mind I have a game later this week and am planning on running 3x10 nobs w/ ghaz

Our main strength is just msu spam to play the mission atm unfortunately though because custodes exist and just say no to any possible hard hitting list we can play. They honestly piss me off more than any other army. GW like "hey let's make a melee army that gatekeeps any other melee focused army from existing."