gungo wrote: Tankbustas just need a new plastic kit with multiple loadouts allowing you to customize the unit… it would be a good kit otherwise… imho it’s dead until we see what new you it’s we a will get in the spring of 2024 with the codex.
Lootas just need bs5.
damn thats a whole lotta optimism haha
A new kit for an outdated unit
In the spring of 2024
WITH OPTIONS???
Orks have gotten 3 pretty major model waves in the last 3 editions. 1 single one of those has been a non-monopose kit, unless I'm misremembering something like..maybe deffcoptas have some options??
Ghazzy Snikrot all the buggies all the beast snaggas all the contents of the new combat patrol all monopose, only kommandos dual-pose with any options at all.
gungo wrote: Tankbustas just need a new plastic kit with multiple loadouts allowing you to customize the unit… it would be a good kit otherwise… imho it’s dead until we see what new you it’s we a will get in the spring of 2024 with the codex.
Lootas just need bs5.
damn thats a whole lotta optimism haha
A new kit for an outdated unit
In the spring of 2024
WITH OPTIONS???
Orks have gotten 3 pretty major model waves in the last 3 editions. 1 single one of those has been a non-monopose kit, unless I'm misremembering something like..maybe deffcoptas have some options??
Ghazzy Snikrot all the buggies all the beast snaggas all the contents of the new combat patrol all monopose, only kommandos dual-pose with any options at all.
My beastsnaggas had options Nob option and Thudd Gun!
youre right, between the spare head you get from the entire set of all the buggies, the spare gun and spare melee weapon from the beast snaggas, you just have to greenstuff 1 torso and legs in order to get yourself a whole extra ork from the whole buggies wave and snagga wave.
the_scotsman wrote: youre right, between the spare head you get from the entire set of all the buggies, the spare gun and spare melee weapon from the beast snaggas, you just have to greenstuff 1 torso and legs in order to get yourself a whole extra ork from the whole buggies wave and snagga wave.
The kitbashing opportunities are endless!
Ork players hate that, right?
IDK, I use a mix of kit bash and mono-pose. I also don't find mono-pose that hard to bash.
I don't even buy the kits but I wish they had more options, so that the datacards had more wargear options, in this restrictive world of 'whats in the box'.
PaddyMick wrote: I don't even buy the kits but I wish they had more options, so that the datacards had more wargear options, in this restrictive world of 'whats in the box'.
For me, RIP anything but a power klaw on a painboy. Preferred tankbusta boyz when they were 7 lads with shootas and 3 rokkets. Anyway, we work with what we've got; I've just built 5 manz w/ double killsaw and a warboss to lead. Reckon they are good during the waaargh turn at least!
Building a stompa also, so starting to work on lists for him. Stompa+mek (to buff)+10 grots (to hold backfield objective) and 5 trukks leaves 860 points to fill the trukks is my starting point.
Oh gak. I hadnt even noticed that the nobz had their entire Choppa option removed.
So on one hand, GW forces us to take all options as tankbustas, on the other hand, Nobz kits comes with a shitbucket of Choppas, which are not usable in 10th edition.
What the hell are they even doing lol
Not that it matters i guess, because how could a chopper ever be as good as a powerklaw, with free wargear and all?
On the other hand Flash Gitz get 4 attacks with their choppas, without the waaagh even. Thats 50 attacks for 10 on a waaagh. I swear if you just want a cheap chopper options for Nobz, you have to buy Flash gitz lol this edition doesnt make any sense at all
Beardedragon wrote: Oh gak. I hadnt even noticed that the nobz had their entire Choppa option removed.
So on one hand, GW forces us to take all options as tankbustas, on the other hand, Nobz kits comes with a shitbucket of Choppas, which are not usable in 10th edition.
What the hell are they even doing lol
Not that it matters i guess, because how could a chopper ever be as good as a powerklaw, with free wargear and all?
On the other hand Flash Gitz get 4 attacks with their choppas, without the waaagh even. Thats 50 attacks for 10 on a waaagh. I swear if you just want a cheap chopper options for Nobz, you have to buy Flash gitz lol this edition doesnt make any sense at all
Just assume regular choppas are big choppas from Nobz now is what I got from it. It is pretty dumb, though I guess be glad we didn't get shafted as hard as Tyranid Warriors when it comes to their weapons options being consolidated.
Btw, just wanted to thank everyone for all the feedback on my Beast Snagga list. I'll probably go ahead and add Mek Gunz in and the extra Beastboss. I was considering Wortsnagga initially because of him being able to use the scout move to get an early lead on central objectives, but I'll be pushing forward anyways so I think his utility is somewhat limited by his points cost. I'll let you all know how the game goes after this Saturday
Regarding mekguns, is it a good idea to hide them in reserves to guarantee that they can shoot at their optimal target later in the game? While their range is amazing, it seems that if you mess up their placement and the main target is out of LOS, then you could end up doing nothing with them due to how hard it is to reposition them with 3" movement.
JawRippa wrote: Regarding mekguns, is it a good idea to hide them in reserves to guarantee that they can shoot at their optimal target later in the game? While their range is amazing, it seems that if you mess up their placement and the main target is out of LOS, then you could end up doing nothing with them due to how hard it is to reposition them with 3" movement.
If you give them a good enough firing corridor, sometimes you don't have to worry about them shooting at all. Sometimes just their threat causing opponents to take sub optimal routes in to their own targets is worth it.
If you really need them to kill something and want to keep them protected until you can do that, then keep them in reserves.
Otherwise just set them up wherever they close off the most of the opponents options (either by them killing stuff or scaring things away).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PaddyMick wrote: Anyone know why the Big Shoota (on a Stompa for example) has a 36'' range, and the Twin Big Shoota is only 18''?
A loose snotling in the writing room I'd imagine.
But in all seriousness, not a clue. There's quite a few things across the books where units aren't listed as having weapons that are on the model or things having different ranges. Likely the proofreaders were being rushed to get ready for launch.
gungo wrote: Tankbustas just need a new plastic kit with multiple loadouts allowing you to customize the unit… it would be a good kit otherwise… imho it’s dead until we see what new you it’s we a will get in the spring of 2024 with the codex.
Lootas just need bs5.
damn thats a whole lotta optimism haha
A new kit for an outdated unit
In the spring of 2024
WITH OPTIONS???
Orks have gotten 3 pretty major model waves in the last 3 editions. 1 single one of those has been a non-monopose kit, unless I'm misremembering something like..maybe deffcoptas have some options??
Ghazzy Snikrot all the buggies all the beast snaggas all the contents of the new combat patrol all monopose, only kommandos dual-pose with any options at all.
Spring of 2024 is literally where the ork codex is due to release on the warhammer community preview.
Orks don’t have many non plastic units left that need a plastic kit. A handful of characters and tankbustas.
I don’t expect a massive wave but Somethings will likely release w the codex… optimistic or not that’s what usually happens.
gungo wrote: Tankbustas just need a new plastic kit with multiple loadouts allowing you to customize the unit… it would be a good kit otherwise… imho it’s dead until we see what new you it’s we a will get in the spring of 2024 with the codex.
Lootas just need bs5.
damn thats a whole lotta optimism haha
A new kit for an outdated unit
In the spring of 2024
WITH OPTIONS???
Orks have gotten 3 pretty major model waves in the last 3 editions. 1 single one of those has been a non-monopose kit, unless I'm misremembering something like..maybe deffcoptas have some options??
Ghazzy Snikrot all the buggies all the beast snaggas all the contents of the new combat patrol all monopose, only kommandos dual-pose with any options at all.
Spring of 2024 is literally where the ork codex is due to release on the warhammer community preview.
Orks don’t have many non plastic units left that need a plastic kit. A handful of characters and tankbustas.
I don’t expect a massive wave but Somethings will likely release w the codex… optimistic or not that’s what usually happens.
I think it's pretty much just Tankbustas and some characters that are still resin for us. I imagine it will be Tankbustas, Zagstruk, dual Painboy/Grotsnik kit and then if we're getting new units/characters it'll be that Ugthak guy with the shokk rifle.
In fact I'd bet a lot of teef that we're getting Ugthak Whatshisname
While I don’t like the idea I have a feeling ugthak is a black library release…
The issue is those black library releases go straight to legends. It makes no sense why they spend all this time and money on a black library model and it becomes unplayable.
gungo wrote: While I don’t like the idea I have a feeling ugthak is a black library release…
The issue is those black library releases go straight to legends. It makes no sense why they spend all this time and money on a black library model and it becomes unplayable.
Particularly for Ork models unfortunately. Imperials are lucky in the sense that most of their book-related models have actual rules, like Ventris, Valerian and Aleya, Gaunt's Ghosts, the SoB character duo with the Harlequin. So far our Red Gobbo (both variants) were just legend rules on release, our Goff Rocker didn't even come with rules, and as far as I remember the other limited edition models didn't come with anything either.
So here's hoping it's not a BL limited edition release and it's actually part of the codex release. Gork knows we need more klan representation since we've lost guys like Nazdreg, Wazdakka, and Zogwort from our rules roster.
gungo wrote: While I don’t like the idea I have a feeling ugthak is a black library release…
The issue is those black library releases go straight to legends. It makes no sense why they spend all this time and money on a black library model and it becomes unplayable.
Particularly for Ork models unfortunately. Imperials are lucky in the sense that most of their book-related models have actual rules, like Ventris, Valerian and Aleya, Gaunt's Ghosts, the SoB character duo with the Harlequin. So far our Red Gobbo (both variants) were just legend rules on release, our Goff Rocker didn't even come with rules, and as far as I remember the other limited edition models didn't come with anything either.
So here's hoping it's not a BL limited edition release and it's actually part of the codex release. Gork knows we need more klan representation since we've lost guys like Nazdreg, Wazdakka, and Zogwort from our rules roster.
Technically the goff rokka did have rules, came in a white dwarf and were actually fairly good. It was a crying shame it was legends only.
gungo wrote: While I don’t like the idea I have a feeling ugthak is a black library release…
The issue is those black library releases go straight to legends. It makes no sense why they spend all this time and money on a black library model and it becomes unplayable.
Particularly for Ork models unfortunately. Imperials are lucky in the sense that most of their book-related models have actual rules, like Ventris, Valerian and Aleya, Gaunt's Ghosts, the SoB character duo with the Harlequin. So far our Red Gobbo (both variants) were just legend rules on release, our Goff Rocker didn't even come with rules, and as far as I remember the other limited edition models didn't come with anything either.
So here's hoping it's not a BL limited edition release and it's actually part of the codex release. Gork knows we need more klan representation since we've lost guys like Nazdreg, Wazdakka, and Zogwort from our rules roster.
Technically the goff rokka did have rules, came in a white dwarf and were actually fairly good. It was a crying shame it was legends only.
Oh damn, must have missed that, probably because it was in a WD. Whelp, guess they did that at least, though it being legends still sucks. Maybe with the new acceptance for online rules from GW we'll see more opportunities for us to just have normal rules?
I might be misremembering the exact IG list, but it had Demolisher tank, Hellhound, 2 chimeras, 30 guardsmen, 3 mortars, 1 squad of scions and Ursula if I remember correctly.
I hid the deffdread and 1 kannon of MKB in the reserves. A trukk with burnas and KBB were placed aggressively, trukks with nobs were placed out of LOS.
Round one: IG got the first turn, and proceeded to pop my burna trukk with hunter-killer missiles and demolitioner cannon. I even got lucky, as it rolled double invul against both missiles, but still got obliterated. Bubblechukka got lasgunned to death by chimera and guardsmen who came out.
My turn, my burnaboys are stranded, so I have no choice but to wobble towards the closest guard unit to try and get some kills before death, only to get overwatched by hellhound. Turns out Ursula hero allows it to overwatch for 0CP. KBB shot the tank, did nothing but gave it -1 to hit for future, proceeded to park in the middle for secondary mission. Warboss and Banner trukks are riding to the side objective.
Round two My opponent moves the Demolisher tank in the middle and guard blob of 20 stands still.
As a response I spend 1CP for Rapid Ingress and park deffdread and KMB slightly outside of Tank's vision. KBB gets blown up by stray melta from Hellhound, Demolisher pops the warboss Trukk (1 nob dies)
On my turn I WAAGH and my boss-nobs get overwatched by demolisher, luckily I shrug it off with 5+++. A single KMB kannon manages to strip 5 wounds (4 due to -1 damage stratagem popped). Both Deffdread and Nobs make it into melee, I pop the Unbridled Carnage on Boss and proceed to just barely kill the tank with 1 or 2 damage spare. Funnily enough if I left the demolisher alive, it'd completely wipe the floor with me, because it does not have -1 to hit when shooting into engagements point-blank. Banner nob unloads from the trukk on the side and proceeds to obliterate a lone chimera flipping the point.
Round three Warboss and remaining 4 nobs get obliterated by hellhound + guardsmen blob, I'm pretty sure they had combined damage to kill or cripple at least 10 strong nobs and warboss despite -1 to wound. Banner nob squad lost 4 nobs due to lucky plasma from 10 guardsmen squad and lethal hits from them standing still (they poured out of stationary destroyed chimera, which still counts as standing still I guess?). Scions are dropped and kill KMB mekgun, hilariously both plasma members dying in the process due to hazardous.
End of the game I gave up because I had no units left to fight at that point. Opponent had 4CP remaining and complete board control.
My thoughts:
-PK Nobs are just laughable against T11+ vehicles even during WAAGH and can barely dent them. Same goes for the warboss, even with devastating wounds artifact under unbridled rage. Perhaps I rolled low... Although it seemed average to me at the moment like it.
-Deffdread is alright, especially with reserve/rapid ingress shenanigans.
-Flamer overwatch is goddamn evil.
-KMB mekguns can do something against vehicles, but are paper thin and have to be hidden.
-Hunter-killer missile spam on IG vehicles is just silly.
-Buggy with -1 debuff on hit is cute.
-Banner and another nob squad did absolutely jack, a squad of boys would do just as well and survive better.
I honestly don't know what options do we have against T10+ vehicles other than mekguns and beastsnaggas™, and I hate anything beastsnaggas related with passion, both models and lore.
gungo wrote: While I don’t like the idea I have a feeling ugthak is a black library release…
The issue is those black library releases go straight to legends. It makes no sense why they spend all this time and money on a black library model and it becomes unplayable.
I've a feeling that Ugthak is going to become the defacto Bad Moons character after Nazdreg died/vanished.
gungo wrote: While I don’t like the idea I have a feeling ugthak is a black library release…
The issue is those black library releases go straight to legends. It makes no sense why they spend all this time and money on a black library model and it becomes unplayable.
I've a feeling that Ugthak is going to become the defacto Bad Moons character after Nazdreg died/vanished.
Nazdreg has been confirmed to be alive and well in the Tau Ark of Omens book.
I honestly don't know what options do we have against T10+ vehicles other than mekguns and beastsnaggas™, and I hate anything beastsnaggas related with passion, both models and lore.
I feel this. In my first game against my regular necron opponent I charged 5 PK nobs + warboss on a waaagh turn with strategem active into a nightbringer. I foolishly didn't check the new c'tan stat line, because I assumed they got a minor toughness bump since they were T7 in every edition prior. NOPE! C'tan's are T11. Needless to say, it did not go well for my nobs :(
the_scotsman wrote: Legends just dropped...GW might have put our best anti armor unit in it haha - check out the lifta droppa.
OK! Found the Legends stuff!
Lifta Wagon with an escort of Bikers led by BigMek on Bike!
Bikes screen the Wagon from close combat,
BigMek hammerz nailz into the Wagon giving it 4 attacks at 4+ to hit, with anti-vehicle 3+, -3AP and d6+1 Damage!?? Sweeeeet!
I think you are correct, this will help vs the big armour!
(especially as one guy in our Crusade brought in a Storm Hammer)
Huh, some of the stats for the legends units are all over the place. I think GW forgot grots man the Big Guns, because BS6+ is pretty terrible for a grot unit, I guess they learned their shooting lessons from lootas.
Kannon-Wagon gun stats are not what I expected either, just a slightly upscaled Kannon profile rather than a super version of the Killkannon like last edition.
Sad there's no Red Gobbo on Bounca, as that's the variant I have of him.
It's super weird to see Deffkoptas of all things getting 3A base for their Killsaws while Meganobz only have 2.
The scotsman is right though, the lifta-droppa is surprisingly great, tempted to try it out a couple of times.
gungo wrote: While I don’t like the idea I have a feeling ugthak is a black library release…
The issue is those black library releases go straight to legends. It makes no sense why they spend all this time and money on a black library model and it becomes unplayable.
I've a feeling that Ugthak is going to become the defacto Bad Moons character after Nazdreg died/vanished.
Nazdreg has been confirmed to be alive and well in the Tau Ark of Omens book.
Well that's what I get for not actually reading the lore in those books. Still, that shokk rifle rumour engine could be Nazdregs Kustom Blasta X
Legends… who cares? You can homebrew the rules as we do all the time and you don ´t need GW….
Automatically Appended Next Post: What I ´ m sad about is that in legends, there are one of the greatest ork models ever made. Such a shame, shame, shame! Cheer up and drink a beer for:
Kill Krusha
Chinork Warkopta
Supa Kannon
Lifta Droppa
And the whole Kustom Stompa set makeing from the walking flowerpot a great warmachine.
Spetial mention and sign of respect to Tauros Assault Vehicle. Well, it is IG but they are our brothers in mud and it is a great model. And you can convert it to a great buggy.
Had a game versus custodes last night. Ended up calling it bottom of 4 cause it was 81-22 and plot twist...I was actually the one with 81. Orks did surprisingly well just body blocking him off objectives all game. I did get first turn though which helped a lot in beating him to the objectives. My kill tally for the game was a single custodian and a squad of 4 prosecutors.
Tomsug wrote: Legends… who cares? You can homebrew the rules as we do all the time and you don ´t need GW….
You do know that this can be said of any GW rule....
I really only have 4 complaints concerning Ork Legends:
1) Where's my Red Gobbo on Bouncer??
2) Where's the rules for the Goff Rokka???
3) Big Gunz....
A) BS6. WTF?
B) really, only 1-2 per unit??
4) other things also being reduced to 1-2 per unit - buggies, skorchas, etc.
The Chinork not being an Aircraft is interesting though!
flaming tadpole wrote: Had a game versus custodes last night. Ended up calling it bottom of 4 cause it was 81-22 and plot twist...I was actually the one with 81. Orks did surprisingly well just body blocking him off objectives all game. I did get first turn though which helped a lot in beating him to the objectives. My kill tally for the game was a single custodian and a squad of 4 prosecutors.
Congrats on the crushing win (in VP if not in body count, haha)! I think this really drives home how our tactics seem to boil down to. Pin down or get the early lead far enough in the game to win by points, and not in terms of trading/outkilling the opponent.
Denver 40K Fight Club July Open - Michael Mann – Orks – 2nd Place
Ok, this was the kind of the list I was speaking about on the early beginning. Spam of trukks and characters - the most effective and krumping units. Ignoring “you give up 2 secondaries” story.
3xBestboss+ Beastsnaggas kombo, Flashgitz kompo, Warboss+Nobz kombo, Mozrog and relic Beastboss and squigosaur.
And 2 squads of grots and one Stormboyz “for secondaries”. All of this of 5 Trukk Taxi.
If you want to make a pressure and score with cheap units, this is the way IMHO.
Afrodactyl wrote: Still, that shokk rifle rumour engine could be Nazdregs Kustom Blasta X
Not really - it's literally the same shokk rifle as on the SJD, a 100% match. Every single vent, cable and button is in the same place, which would be pretty odd for an ork weapon unless it's literally the same gun. Which is precisely the case for the protagonist from novel, as he tore the gun from his own wrecked SJD.
flaming tadpole wrote: Had a game versus custodes last night. Ended up calling it bottom of 4 cause it was 81-22 and plot twist...I was actually the one with 81. Orks did surprisingly well just body blocking him off objectives all game. I did get first turn though which helped a lot in beating him to the objectives. My kill tally for the game was a single custodian and a squad of 4 prosecutors.
I had my first game against custodies last thursday and i lost. I got turn 2, and that really fethed me up because im really bad at figuring out where to put myself against a melee army, when im not turn 1.
Anyway it wasnt a big thrashing, but i did lose in the end. Too much fight first, and free stratagems, coupled with the stupid charge rules, i had no proper way of fighting against his units that clumped up. We sadly played on a stage where all the objectives in the no mans land, except the middle one, and then we added objectives ourselves, which meant we had a lot of objectives on the board, that i couldnt really block him out from.
it also seemed like every single tactical objective i got seemed to not be in line with where i was and what i wanted to do, where as my opponent got tactical missions that constantly were in line with what he was doing.
But i feel like i could have won the game. Not easily but i could have. I just messed up my positioning in my very first turn.
Denver 40K Fight Club July Open - Michael Mann – Orks – 2nd Place
Ok, this was the kind of the list I was speaking about on the early beginning. Spam of trukks and characters - the most effective and krumping units. Ignoring “you give up 2 secondaries” story.
3xBestboss+ Beastsnaggas kombo, Flashgitz kompo, Warboss+Nobz kombo, Mozrog and relic Beastboss and squigosaur. And 2 squads of grots and one Stormboyz “for secondaries”. All of this of 5 Trukk Taxi.
If you want to make a pressure and score with cheap units, this is the way IMHO.
List looks super solid, still hate it. If I now go out and bloat my collection to 3+2 beastbosses and 6 trukks, I know for sure what's going to sit on the shelf for the next decade.
In any case, I've been toying around with a bunch of melee focused lists for a change, though not many surprises here: + Warboss+Weirdboy in a boyz mob with 'ere we go has been super good for me. In almost all cases the weird boy did not target a character, but instead took a big chunk out of a vehicle or monster which then was finished off by klaws and the ladz. I'm shocked myself how efficient that was. + Kommadoz are great, but shootas and burnas are just a waste of a good choppa. Some one else already mentioned it, but having them score VP is always a better option than having them fight - they struggle to kill anything more durable than 5 marines. + "Free rokkits everywhere" actually helped with the vehicle problem. One or two rokkits getting through per turn amounts to quite a lot of damage over the course of a game. o With infantry based lists, whenever I do not call the Waaagh! in T1 I get my teef kicked in. Not too happy about this as it severely limits my options. o Lootas are terrible. Two spannas with KMB and rerolls surprisingly are not. Not sure what to make of the unit, but if you ever run them, just treat the deff guns as ablative wounds and shoot stuff on objectives with 6 KMB shots. - Thrakka doesn't work without a transport. It's not that he is bad or anything, but he attracts big things to fight him, and neither MANz nor he himself have the killing power to win. No matter what you do, for Thrakka and MANz, 'ard as nails is always the superior choice over unbriddled carnage, as the later never makes you win a fight you wouldn't have won anyways. - Zodgrods+20 gretchin looks awesome on paper, but really don't have any staying power whatsoever. While cute when going first, any time I went second they were just evaporated by blasts and standard weaponry. -1 to wound is not sufficient to save a T2 units without notable armor save. - After initially having great success with the damage output of rokkit kanz, my opponents have caught on and are now obliterating them first thing. They stand no chance whatsoever against any high damage weapons, and are easy kills for mission objectives. - I have yet to find a way to deal with Deathwing Knights.
I have found Thrakka to do really well. I sit him behind some wall somewhat close to the middle, then i "Ere we go him" and his 5 mega Nobz on my Waagh turn. He has done me good things in all my matches ive been in and ive never needed a transport since he can run through walls.
5 inch move +2 + advance +2 alone amounts to an average of like 13 move/advance, and then +2 to the charge. Most things arent even capable of shooting him when hes deployed as you deploy him behind a wall, and you should be very safe when you make the first movement behind another wall. So im not sure why a transport should be necessary.
Im taking him to my next small local tournament. His lethal hits aura is also pretty good if you already intend to throw out like 30 beast snagga boys near him. He also provide something this ork codex doesnt have a lot of (surprisingly) and thats a melee unit that can actively destroy anything in melee combat. Mega Nobz dont have a lot of attacks, Nobz cant get kill saws so if you run in to something toughness 13, hell or even toughness 14, at least on the waaagh, ghaz will wound that model on 2s as long as his bodyguards are alive.
So i feel like Ghaz is a good all rounder as a: I use this model to trash what ever you have i cant other wise deal with".
Jidmah wrote: Huh, I got to try that. During my Waaagh! turn 'ere we go was reserved for the boyz using da jump. Maybe the two units just can't be in one list.
Yea, its for that reason alone i havent tried 20 boys with a weirdboy yet, because atm im using Ghaz. I also am not using Snikrom with kommandos, because i cant relocate them and expect to make that charge, when my ere' we go" goes to Ghaz.
So using ghaz its pretty mandatory to use ere' we go" on him, which of course exclude the usage on another unit. Although honestly maybe you could go for 20 boys still, just without a warboss. As you could ere we go the boys and teleport them in turn 1 to do a turn 1 block and charge with them. I wouldnt take the warboss though as you havent called a waaagh, so he wouldnt get his 9 powerklaw attacks. But then you would bring the 20 boys specifically for teleporting in turn 1, because its going to suck if you wait till round 2 as ere we go is reserved for ghaz.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The list i will being to the local tournament looks like this:
I did really well with the gargantuan squiggoth last time, so ill bring it once again. Im unsure if its over kill to then have Ghaz as well but i'll see what happens.
Ive really grown to love the flash gitz though. 50 attacks on a waaagh + 7 from Badrukk? thats insane. Good shooting, really good melee, they arent really bad at anything. If these dudes charge in with "Unbridled carnage" near Ghaz lethal hits aura, then you have a total of 57 attacks getting sustained hits and lethal hits on 5s.
thats mental. On top of their impressive shooting. But of course shooting one target and charging another is difficult as you arent allowed to advance, you would also be forced to shoot a target that isnt the closest eligible target (most likely) because thats the target you wanna charge. So you do lose 10 shots.
So all in all dont rely on the melee, but also dont disregard it. They are really good all rounders.
Tomsug wrote: Jidmah, how does your list looks like aproximately today?
Somewhere between failed work and in progress, I guess? I lack the mek guns to replace my kanz and lootaz, and planes just don't cut it. Maybe koptas or scrapjets?
Probably going to toy with speedwaaagh or dreadmob now. If there is something I can't complain about, it's the variety the ork index has.
The last iteration before I abandoned it was something like this:
Beardedragon wrote: I wouldnt take the warboss though as you havent called a waaagh, so he wouldnt get his 9 powerklaw attacks.
Actually, I've taken the warboss precisely for the turns when they don't have the Waaagh!. The +1 to hit and his attacks combined with the nob and the weird boy have proven over and over again to be just as much punch as you need to plow through most targets without outside help. Waagh! turns are for murdering vehicles or monsters.
Well in that case maybe 20 boys with a weirdboy and a warboss is still a pretty good idea with Ghaz?
Turn 1,Ere we go the boys teleport in and block/destroy Turn 2, Ere we go Ghaz
I know what you mean about failed lists and all. I still havent found a list where i can safely say that i like it. Its work in progress, and its work in progress for me to learn how to position myself when im against another melee army, and i DONT get turn 1. I always move up too far and end up being charged like an idiot. Its easy enough when im turn 1 though.
I agree zodgrod grunts die quickly but I don’t take them for staying power I take them to either grab an objective turn 1 or move block a unit. They are slightly better than normal Gretchin, but you rarely see him in competitive lists because super grunts don’t last long. Zodgrod does have a decent melee atk though.
tneva82 wrote: Yea. Unless GW errataes grots are tough buggers in melee
Yeah, and with zogrod they get -1 to wound; so run them into that 10 man desolator squad 0 they can get there T1 if you waaargh,maybe - and they'll be wounding you on 6's!
flaming tadpole wrote: Had a game versus custodes last night. Ended up calling it bottom of 4 cause it was 81-22 and plot twist...I was actually the one with 81. Orks did surprisingly well just body blocking him off objectives all game. I did get first turn though which helped a lot in beating him to the objectives. My kill tally for the game was a single custodian and a squad of 4 prosecutors.
Congrats on the crushing win (in VP if not in body count, haha)! I think this really drives home how our tactics seem to boil down to. Pin down or get the early lead far enough in the game to win by points, and not in terms of trading/outkilling the opponent.
thanks mate, ya I was surprised how well it did. It does help that they aren't very good at getting rid of trukks and their shooting as a whole is laughably bad against orks so I really didn't have to worry much about utilizing cover at all times and focus on move blocking.
flaming tadpole wrote: Had a game versus custodes last night. Ended up calling it bottom of 4 cause it was 81-22 and plot twist...I was actually the one with 81. Orks did surprisingly well just body blocking him off objectives all game. I did get first turn though which helped a lot in beating him to the objectives. My kill tally for the game was a single custodian and a squad of 4 prosecutors.
I had my first game against custodies last thursday and i lost. I got turn 2, and that really fethed me up because im really bad at figuring out where to put myself against a melee army, when im not turn 1.
Anyway it wasnt a big thrashing, but i did lose in the end. Too much fight first, and free stratagems, coupled with the stupid charge rules, i had no proper way of fighting against his units that clumped up. We sadly played on a stage where all the objectives in the no mans land, except the middle one, and then we added objectives ourselves, which meant we had a lot of objectives on the board, that i couldnt really block him out from.
it also seemed like every single tactical objective i got seemed to not be in line with where i was and what i wanted to do, where as my opponent got tactical missions that constantly were in line with what he was doing.
But i feel like i could have won the game. Not easily but i could have. I just messed up my positioning in my very first turn.
Ya going first I think just straight up probably boosts your chances of winning by at least 20% against them. I made a big misplay at the beginning by charging in my super grots with zodgrod turn 1. I convinced myself that I'd have to make an outplay early on to have a shot and saw an opportunity to charge one of his blocks in a way that only half his squad could fight back and essentially all but guarantee pinning them for a turn. I unfortunately rolled really high and was forced to base most of his squad and the whole unit was wiped. Luckily he also made some mistakes like reserving a good portion of his army which allowed me to screen the entirety of the board by turn 2 so he could only come in at a small pocket by his back objective. It isn't a super thrilling matchup cause it feels like the only way we can play is to screen. The game was basically custodes charge sacrificial screen -> kills screen -> consolidates into next screen ->next screen falls back 1.1" -> rinse/repeat. Really the only way to do any damage to them in combat is 2cp fight on death which is just kinda frustrating.
Just played a game yesterday, brought a lot shooting. High points for flash gitz and mekguns.
I used the mekguns with 2kustom canon and 1 tractor + big mek with shock and + mek = 3bs with re-rols to 1, the result is brutal. But at 255, i probably would only bring a pair. Tractor can be relevant or not, so i bring 1. In this case with 2 tau they were throwing mortal's left and right and eating crisis suits for d6+1 MW.
I am also cooling off mozrod, he is a decent distraction carnifex, but he just does not connect damage besides the mortals and with out the MW his paltry -1 AP bounces of everything he want's to attack. I am considering the regular one with dev enhancement. On top of that he has more utility with re-rolls for charges and heroic with 1cp giving him 6threat range on opponent's turn.
I am going to try big G, i seen people here have great success with him, maybe i was too fast on him.. i will apply what i read here. Also going for beast snaggas and teams of 5 nobz with boss + cavalry.
tneva82 wrote: Yea. Unless GW errataes grots are tough buggers in melee
Yeah, and with zogrod they get -1 to wound; so run them into that 10 man desolator squad 0 they can get there T1 if you waaargh,maybe - and they'll be wounding you on 6's!
Yes, that's exactly what I did when I went first. An it's quite effective to be honest. Not desolators though, they have a good chance to just overwatch the gretchin off the table. +80 shots from blast do hurt.
The issue is, when you don't go first, they just die and you have absolutely nothing to show for all those points. No objective, no movement block, no distraction and they have definitely not drawn any amount of meaningful firepower before they die.
Does zog +squad of 11 in a trukk work, for the same points? the trukk can be used by another squad if you get 1st turn, protects them if you go 2nd; not as many bodies to move block but they still survive a combat with non-combat marines.
Went to a small local tournament today and got 2nd place. I didnt really fight any top armies except Chaos space marines (in fact i guess admech and death guard are trash tier?). I had not fought any of the factions before though.
Battle 1 vs admech, victory to the orks. Not much to say, he got first turn, didnt kill a whole lot, moved up a bit too far and ghaz moved out without waaagh but with ere we go and krumped a few things. Waagh next turn, and he got dumped on. Flash Gitz did gods work shooting left right and center while chopping down with 57 attacks some dudes on wheels that shot hard. Gargantuan squiggoth never died. Ghaz died rather embarassingly by a character that had an anti infantry +2 devastating wound flame thrower which absolutely melted Ghaz in overwatch which.. i didnt know so fair enough. But he had still done gods work by being a magnet for attacks and rust stalkers to charge at him.
Battle 2, vs Death guard, victory to the orks. I was not sure how death guard had changed from 9th to 10th but i was hoping their shooting was gak, so i deployed my gargantuan squiggoth dead center out in the open so it had a straight running line to the enemy. I got turn 1, moved up, and sat still. 1 trukk died and a few models here and there, nothing that meant anything. Turn 2 waaagh was on, Squiggoth ran in and didnt die during the entire game, and it was over by, maybe turn 3. Ghaz failed a 5 inch charge turn 2, so rather than krumping anything he was instead attacked, and tanked 10 plague marines with some characters on, and in return destroyed them. So same as game 2, Ghaz acts as a magnet the moment he runs out of his hiding space behind a wall, which is fine.
Battle 3 vs Chaos space marines, victory to Chaos space marines, and i got absolutely fethed up by them.
Didnt know what to expect and i had no idea it was a shooting army to this degree, so the bugger convinced me that it was nigh impossible to shoot that gargantuan squiggoth off the board, which made me place the gargantuan squiggoth on a straight line to his army. Well the obliterators alone did 20 wounds to it, so it died turn 1, exploding in my own backline causing havoc, with no CP for careen (which i cant remember if we can use or not on a non vehicle). I dont think he lied to me i just think his math skills were off. I suck at listening to an army and what they can do, i need to see it. So now i know, they will shred a gargantuan squiggoth turn 1, even with -1 to wound. I ended up getting 27 points during that game.
Also like a forge fiend did like 27 mortal wounds to my flash gitz. What is wrong with this game lol
Anyway, i still ended up with 2nd place so thats fine. Craziest thing was makari that ended up tanking literally 26 hits from a unit made up by 1 wound and i believe, 3 wound daemons. 26 fething hits and not a single 1 to kill him. That was godlike to watch.
New local tournament coming up next sunday and im unsure if i should field the same army. I kinda wanna throw down a stompa and see what happens.
Beardedragon wrote: Went to a small local tournament today and got 2nd place. I didnt really fight any top armies except Chaos space marines (in fact i guess admech and death guard are trash tier?). I had not fought any of the factions before though.
Battle 1 vs admech, victory to the orks. Not much to say, he got first turn, didnt kill a whole lot, moved up a bit too far and ghaz moved out without waaagh but with ere we go and krumped a few things. Waagh next turn, and he got dumped on. Flash Gitz did gods work shooting left right and center while chopping down with 57 attacks some dudes on wheels that shot hard. Gargantuan squiggoth never died. Ghaz died rather embarassingly by a character that had an anti infantry +2 devastating wound flame thrower which absolutely melted Ghaz in overwatch which.. i didnt know so fair enough. But he had still done gods work by being a magnet for attacks and rust stalkers to charge at him.
Battle 2, vs Death guard, victory to the orks. I was not sure how death guard had changed from 9th to 10th but i was hoping their shooting was gak, so i deployed my gargantuan squiggoth dead center out in the open so it had a straight running line to the enemy. I got turn 1, moved up, and sat still. 1 trukk died and a few models here and there, nothing that meant anything. Turn 2 waaagh was on, Squiggoth ran in and didnt die during the entire game, and it was over by, maybe turn 3. Ghaz failed a 5 inch charge turn 2, so rather than krumping anything he was instead attacked, and tanked 10 plague marines with some characters on, and in return destroyed them. So same as game 2, Ghaz acts as a magnet the moment he runs out of his hiding space behind a wall, which is fine.
Battle 3 vs Chaos space marines, victory to Chaos space marines, and i got absolutely fethed up by them.
Didnt know what to expect and i had no idea it was a shooting army to this degree, so the bugger convinced me that it was nigh impossible to shoot that gargantuan squiggoth off the board, which made me place the gargantuan squiggoth on a straight line to his army. Well the obliterators alone did 20 wounds to it, so it died turn 1, exploding in my own backline causing havoc, with no CP for careen (which i cant remember if we can use or not on a non vehicle). I dont think he lied to me i just think his math skills were off. I suck at listening to an army and what they can do, i need to see it. So now i know, they will shred a gargantuan squiggoth turn 1, even with -1 to wound. I ended up getting 27 points during that game.
Also like a forge fiend did like 27 mortal wounds to my flash gitz. What is wrong with this game lol
Anyway, i still ended up with 2nd place so thats fine. Craziest thing was makari that ended up tanking literally 26 hits from a unit made up by 1 wound and i believe, 3 wound daemons. 26 fething hits and not a single 1 to kill him. That was godlike to watch.
New local tournament coming up next sunday and im unsure if i should field the same army. I kinda wanna throw down a stompa and see what happens.
Congrats man! my last game with makari the lucky git also ended up tanking like 20 some odd multi damage wounds. We really do just need to believe that he's lucky and it will come true!
PaddyMick wrote: Does zog +squad of 11 in a trukk work, for the same points? the trukk can be used by another squad if you get 1st turn, protects them if you go 2nd; not as many bodies to move block but they still survive a combat with non-combat marines.
Too many points for 10 gretchin in my book, at that point just get a trukk full of beastsnaggas and add stormboyz or kommadoz.
I feel like suparunts are a fun unit that works well for less competitive and narrative games, but not something that works well against optimized lists. And that's a perfectly fine place for a unit to be IMO.
It's a shame that da red gobbo is just legends though. Free grenades on a gretchin unit for 40 points is pretty dope.
Got in a full game yesterday, decided to trade out some of my usual scoring bodies for more killing power to see how that would go.
My opponent was playing CSM. He had:
-Master of Posession leading 10 possessed
-Dark Commune leading maxed Accursed
-2 oblits
-2x5 rubrics, some with guns, some with flamers
-2x maulerfiends
-1x forgefiend
-1x prince with wings
-1x venomcrawler
-10x warp talons
-10x traitor guardsmen
-3x bikers with plasma
I brought:
-Mega-armor Warboss w/ follow me ladz+5 Manz with saws in a trukk
-Mozrog
-Zodgrod+20 grots
-Red Gobbo+20 grots (because I love that I can run 40 "badass grots" now)
-10x burnas in a trukk
-Boomdakka
-KBB -Grot Megatank with rokkits
-Mek for the megatank
-Warboss+Painboy+20 Boyz in an 'ard case battlewagon
-KFF big mek+15 Lootas
Our mission had corner deployment and a central objective+2 no mans land objectives as well as a home field objective. I took bring it down+deploy homers. He took engage+bring it down. I deployed lootas up on top of a large ruin partially in my DZ and screened the bottom with Zodgrod's grots. I figured if I went first i could use them as a highly aggressive screen, and if he went first I could still at least use the scout move to bubble his melee guys out. Generally I deployed everything else with the idea of using a large ruin in his deployment zone as a thing to make his melee big guys' movement decision making more awkward as well as block LOS from the forgefiend.
I went first. scout+moved the supa grots up, maintaining a 12" gap from the flamer rubrics and from the possessed, got within range of the accursed cultists as I figured theyd be eating all my anti chaff firepower and probably mostly dying so a heroic intervene wouldnt be super useful. They did mostly die to the assorted big shootas, supa grot blastas, megatank shootas, boomdakka etc.
The lootas targeted the possessed since they were within 6" of my opponents home objective, while the rokkit meks had to shoot something else, they killed maybe 1 rubric or something. Between the lootas and the megatank rokkits I picked up 4 possessed. KBB tagged the venomcrawler as it was his only good target. I moved up the battlewagon to support the scrum in the middle and the BDSW and megatank went to grab 1 no mans objective while the burna and Manz trukks moved to the other.
On my opponent's turn, he moved the remaining couple models of the accursed cultists and the possessed to clear the grots. The possessed moved within range of the center objective, so I overwatched with the lootas, killed another 3, now with rokkits and rapid fire range. Everything that could shoot lootas, shot lootas from my opponent's list, and I used 'ard as nails to make that more difficult. ended up with the mek wounded but not killed by Precision psychic attacks, and 5 deffguns remaining. Between flamer rubrics and the remaining 3 possessed, Zodgrod's supa grots were down to 2 grots and the man himself, who would basically just run around the rest of the battle deploying the teleport homer. Absolute kings.
Round 2, I still hadnt gotten access to any of the big vehicles so I didnt waagh yet. Burna boyz trukk moved up to be an enticing target for a Maulerfiend, and I dismounted the boyz and moved up the battlewagon to try and get the daemon prince+second maulerfiend to come towards Mozrog and the warboss+klaw nob+painboy which i figured could put down some hurt on the waagh. The lootas cleared the remaining flamer rubrics, the tank shocking battlewagon did 6mw and plowed through the remaining possessed, and 1/3 of the boyz squad kind of mooshed into melee to kill the last couple accursed weirdos. Mozrog kills a venomcrawler.
My opponents turn, the maulerfiends finally moved in. One maulerfiend one-shot the battlewagon, and the other one failed to kill a trukk. The dice giveth. the forgefiend popped some strat and like 3x overkilled the KBB. The daemon prince rolled and then CP rerolled super low on a charge and didnt make it into the MANz trukk. the warp talons dropped in to grab the other objective, killed the BDSW.
My turn 3, we finally declare waaagh. Manz kill the daemon prince, burna boyz jump out of their trukk and advance+charge the traitor guardsmen, wiping them and stealing the home objective from my opponent. Mozrog bodies one maulerfiend and the trukks bodyblock another. The lootas, red gobbos grots with free grenades, and the megatank wipe out most of the warp talons. Seeing as I've got about 35pts at this point and my opponent has 10 and has lost most of his army, he concedes.
Trying to make the best Stompa list that i can for friendly games. But next to a stompa draining 800 points and 45 for a mek, im not sure what else to bring. Im looking at just having 2x grots as a minimum (as always) and then swarming the board with Boys and trukks
Beardedragon wrote: Trying to make the best Stompa list that i can for friendly games. But next to a stompa draining 800 points and 45 for a mek, im not sure what else to bring. Im looking at just having 2x grots as a minimum (as always) and then swarming the board with Boys and trukks
I am also working on a stompa list, but one for tournaments. Reckon a big punchy unit to take out the biggest threat to the stompa might be needed, like 5 manz w/killsaws and boss in trukk (mozrog does same job cheaper but I'm not using any beast snaggas). Stompa to be reserved most games and he can take out another threat when he comes on. Reckon 3x5 stormboyz is a good shout too for doing stuff... and yeah you're right, trukks and boyz is probably best.
Beardedragon wrote: Trying to make the best Stompa list that i can for friendly games. But next to a stompa draining 800 points and 45 for a mek, im not sure what else to bring. Im looking at just having 2x grots as a minimum (as always) and then swarming the board with Boys and trukks
I am also working on a stompa list, but one for tournaments. Reckon a big punchy unit to take out the biggest threat to the stompa might be needed, like 5 manz w/killsaws and boss in trukk (mozrog does same job cheaper but I'm not using any beast snaggas). Stompa to be reserved most games and he can take out another threat when he comes on. Reckon 3x5 stormboyz is a good shout too for doing stuff... and yeah you're right, trukks and boyz is probably best.
What are the rules for coming in from reserve with a stompa? Its too large to fit within the 6" he has to be within. Is it still the rule where you cant do anything for 1 entire turn?
Beardedragon wrote: Trying to make the best Stompa list that i can for friendly games. But next to a stompa draining 800 points and 45 for a mek, im not sure what else to bring. Im looking at just having 2x grots as a minimum (as always) and then swarming the board with Boys and trukks
I am also working on a stompa list, but one for tournaments. Reckon a big punchy unit to take out the biggest threat to the stompa might be needed, like 5 manz w/killsaws and boss in trukk (mozrog does same job cheaper but I'm not using any beast snaggas). Stompa to be reserved most games and he can take out another threat when he comes on. Reckon 3x5 stormboyz is a good shout too for doing stuff... and yeah you're right, trukks and boyz is probably best.
Beardedragon wrote: Trying to make the best Stompa list that i can for friendly games. But next to a stompa draining 800 points and 45 for a mek, im not sure what else to bring. Im looking at just having 2x grots as a minimum (as always) and then swarming the board with Boys and trukks
I am also working on a stompa list, but one for tournaments. Reckon a big punchy unit to take out the biggest threat to the stompa might be needed, like 5 manz w/killsaws and boss in trukk (mozrog does same job cheaper but I'm not using any beast snaggas). Stompa to be reserved most games and he can take out another threat when he comes on. Reckon 3x5 stormboyz is a good shout too for doing stuff... and yeah you're right, trukks and boyz is probably best.
I’m bringing a gargantuan squigoth with mine.
Gargantuan squiggoths actually work out really well ive found. That is, they work out really well if they dont die turn 1, which they dont against many armies. But against those that can take it out turn 1 its essentially game over if its dead before battle round 2. But its one of those units that, the enemy can either deal with, or they cant, because of the -1 to wound. Only those with absurd rules or absurd shooting kills it turn 1.
Beardedragon wrote: Trying to make the best Stompa list that i can for friendly games. But next to a stompa draining 800 points and 45 for a mek, im not sure what else to bring. Im looking at just having 2x grots as a minimum (as always) and then swarming the board with Boys and trukks
I am also working on a stompa list, but one for tournaments. Reckon a big punchy unit to take out the biggest threat to the stompa might be needed, like 5 manz w/killsaws and boss in trukk (mozrog does same job cheaper but I'm not using any beast snaggas). Stompa to be reserved most games and he can take out another threat when he comes on. Reckon 3x5 stormboyz is a good shout too for doing stuff... and yeah you're right, trukks and boyz is probably best.
What are the rules for coming in from reserve with a stompa? Its too large to fit within the 6" he has to be within. Is it still the rule where you cant do anything for 1 entire turn?
They do. Rule commentary section "deploying units"
I mean it’s good BattleScribe is back maybe GW won’t charge for thier app and see a mass exodus.. the Gw app still needs a bunch of features as well like better list linking. But ya I’m still using the GW app it’s just prettier.
gungo wrote: I mean it’s good BattleScribe is back maybe GW won’t charge for thier app and see a mass exodus.. the Gw app still needs a bunch of features as well like better list linking. But ya I’m still using the GW app it’s just prettier.
I'm just keeping battlescribe for kill team stuff and MESBG stuff at the moment.
Other than the GW app not adding wargear when you increase squad sizes I've no gripes with it so far.
Tomsug wrote: Battlescribe seems to be back in game.
In what game? As far as I can tell, the app development is still MIA.
10th datasheets
BS is more comfortable for me to use. Single click to see the stats, compact graphic layout, etc. And it sinc between the devices… somehow.
There is little bit too much pictures and big lack of functionality in GW app. Want to change the name of the list? Nope. Want to see the rules? You have to click to unit and click for rules and than click on 4 colapsing menus to see it. Plus everything is huge. Wanna fitout your boyz? Two screens… Sync between device? Hahaha…
I don' t care who collect money where. If it works. This is warhammer. You have to pay somebody for your daily dose.
For 300 points I can get 6 kans with 6 rockets.
For 310 points I can get 8 grot tanks with 10 rockets.
Their defensive profiles look very similar, is the Kan klaw and their ignore cover ability worth it over the extra rockets and extra bodies of the grot tanks?
Had a small 3 games with friends and steak day today. Played against thousand sons, Chaos Daemons and World eaters.
Against them i used 3 different lists explained before hand (we all had varied lists). My focus of the game was to use a list with a stompa, a list with a kill tank and a list with my gargantuan squiggoth (which i got 2 second place with at the last tournament).
My game against world eaters, i used a stompa and was victorious. I told him that using the stompa against World eaters would probably end in a pretty big win for me, and suggested the kill tank list instead, but he insisted so oh well. And yes it was a big victory.
Played against thousand sons with my kill tank list and i lost by 1 point. Made a massive mistake by charging some terminators instead of magnus with Ghaz so that probably sealed the deal by not dealing with him. He made a few blunders, but even THEN thousand sons come out winning. I had nothing by the end yet his army just remain strong through out the entirety of the game. They seem to have an answer for everything.
Against Chaos Daemons i whipped out my Gargantuan squiggoth list with ghaz and won decently large as well.
Over all, anything melee focused i have a decent chance at winning. Thousand sons i will probably not be winning unless he makes blunders. The army just seem too strong for my brain worm to deal with.
With Tsons I think it kinda comes down to if we can kill Magnus in the first 2-3 turns. Once he's gone the armies damage is basically cut in half or more not even exaggerating. The problem of course is he's real tanky and the only things that are going to do anything to him in combat is mozrog, ghaz, or garg squig and if they know that going in they're gonna use their 9 kabal points "this unit doesn't exist anymore" ability to remove the threat which kinda only leaves one semi reliable option in traktor kannons and to a lesser extent kmk, probably with a big mek attached.
flaming tadpole wrote: With Tsons I think it kinda comes down to if we can kill Magnus in the first 2-3 turns. Once he's gone the armies damage is basically cut in half or more not even exaggerating. The problem of course is he's real tanky and the only things that are going to do anything to him in combat is mozrog, ghaz, or garg squig and if they know that going in they're gonna use their 9 kabal points "this unit doesn't exist anymore" ability to remove the threat which kinda only leaves one semi reliable option in traktor kannons and to a lesser extent kmk, probably with a big mek attached.
You need multiple things though to threaten Magnus. 6 traktor kannon=3 hits, 2 will get damage zero'ed, one does then d6 mortals.
KMK is way worse.
9 traktor kannons would certainly give a good scare for magnus but unless you are tooling up against Magnus do you take 9 of those?
Alternatively how my Magnus has been killed been spam of -2 attacks with +1 to wound and/or rerolls. Not sure do orks have those. But lone big shots rarely do the job. Only reason traktor kannon is real threat is mortals on 2+ and because you can spam them pretty well to negate the twice per phase damage goes to 0.
(well then there was the game where I failed 5/6 4++ with 2 rerolls and finally 4 3+ saves were failed with single pass keeping alive. But that's not something you should rely when facing Magnus )
Ah right I forgot he can do the zero damage bs twice. Sometimes gets hard to keep track of all the op rules other armies get. In that case the best bet might just be mass beastsnaggas/beastboss assuming your going for a more balanced approach. Maybe ghaz too to add lethals for a unbridled carnage Hail Mary with a snagga squad. Ghaz would probably need a bw in that matchup though to not get focused down immediately.
Maybe squig boys plus nob killchoppa combo? That still isn’t gonna do crazy damage with -1 dmg on magnus though.
For 300 points I can get 6 kans with 6 rockets.
For 310 points I can get 8 grot tanks with 10 rockets.
Their defensive profiles look very similar, is the Kan klaw and their ignore cover ability worth it over the extra rockets and extra bodies of the grot tanks?
Thanks,
Coh
I don't think so, you can add a mekk and shoot those guns on 3 so it's actually 345 and 355. The value of the tanks is more wounds, more guns and ability to move if opponent get's to close. Also they have more move then kans. It's just a better profile bar melee but you don't want to melee with them.
Yes exactly. There doesnt seem to be ANY real strategy when dealing with Tsons and what one has to do is kill magnus as fast as possible. But Magnus will only really die if your opponent is an idiot who misplaced him so its really up to your opponent to make mistakes.
We dont have hard enough shooting to take him off the board quickly, unless you want to use a stompa and even thats swingy too.
They can shoot a target without line of sight, and remove saves making even units without line of sight, like a cheeky hidden Ghaz, a prime target for destruction.
Tried to shoot my Kill tank with bursta kannon at his vortex beast. I did like 3 damage total.
They need los with 1 unit to use indirect shootin. Shouldn't be aktomatic if terrain is well done and you are careful wlth screens vs teleport artefact
Also an't use remove save# w:thout los and it's psychic only so magnus oi scarab terminator only to worry and then it's 4cp combo.
Btw if you want to try ignore magnus win otherway style make sure he does damage ignore things correctly as you can at least remove resources. He has to use free stratagem cabal start of phase and only magnus can do and first has to take with cp so you can try to get that cp and then switch targets. Cp spent, can't negate damage elsewhere and cabal points wasted.
tneva82 wrote: They need los with 1 unit to use indirect shootin. Shouldn't be aktomatic if terrain is well done and you are careful wlth screens vs teleport artefact
Also an't use remove save# w:thout los and it's psychic only so magnus oi scarab terminator only to worry and then it's 4cp combo.
Btw if you want to try ignore magnus win otherway style make sure he does damage ignore things correctly as you can at least remove resources. He has to use free stratagem cabal start of phase and only magnus can do and first has to take with cp so you can try to get that cp and then switch targets. Cp spent, can't negate damage elsewhere and cabal points wasted.
Cabal points can make him use a free stratagem. So it ends up being like a 2CP spending.
And either way, Thousand sons still has something for everything, and Ghaz with 5 mega nobz still take up a sizable area making him hard to entirely hide. Especially when he can warptime a small Ahriman if he wants to to gain line of sight.
Orks are in a really rough spot against Thousand sons.
App is updated with todays soon to be released errata.
Ghaz in trukk fixed
Warboss on bike fixed
Gretchin using runtherder toughness fixed… (does zodgrod toughness work?)
Meganobs got meganobs keyword
Mob rule lasts until next command phase (still bad)
Deffkilla wartrike now has character keyword
Not sure what else changed
Quality of life changes to app such as changing name and detachment allowed..
gungo wrote: App is updated with todays soon to be released errata.
Ghaz in trukk fixed
Warboss on bike fixed
Gretchin using runtherder toughness fixed… (does zodgrod toughness work?)
Not sure what else changed
Zogrod T wasn't used anyway as attached unit case bodyguard t is use. Gretchin worked because runtherd was part of unit. Not leader.
App interface improvements nice. Reference side lot clearer. Only thing i really miss now is legend units.
gungo wrote: App is updated with todays soon to be released errata.
Ghaz in trukk fixed
Warboss on bike fixed
Gretchin using runtherder toughness fixed… (does zodgrod toughness work?)
Not sure what else changed
Zogrod T wasn't used anyway as attached unit case bodyguard t is use. Gretchin worked because runtherd was part of unit. Not leader.
App interface improvements nice. Reference side lot clearer. Only thing i really miss now is legend units.
Ya I kinda knew there was a reason I just couldn’t look it up.
What I really want to see is battleshock tests taken during your opponents phase actually doing something in your phase.
Also pdf's updated at whc. Index card pdf has handy list of changes with new one's on red.
Generally sensible ones and adding missing keywords. Some abuses(tyranid barbgaunt cant split fire and slow multiple units a' once) removed. Knight reroll weakened etc.
No huge balance changes yet. On that front ghaz, barbgaunt and knights probably biggest ones.
Forceride wrote: I don't think so, you can add a mekk and shoot those guns on 3 so it's actually 345 and 355. The value of the tanks is more wounds, more guns and ability to move if opponent get's to close. Also they have more move then kans. It's just a better profile bar melee but you don't want to melee with them.
I think the mek only affects a single model, not a whole unit? Either way I think my grots are gonna build some tanks
Forceride wrote: I don't think so, you can add a mekk and shoot those guns on 3 so it's actually 345 and 355. The value of the tanks is more wounds, more guns and ability to move if opponent get's to close. Also they have more move then kans. It's just a better profile bar melee but you don't want to melee with them.
I think the mek only affects a single model, not a whole unit? Either way I think my grots are gonna build some tanks
That's correct good sir, misreading on my part. It only affect's the model. Still better go for tanks has you mentioned
Playing around w Lists and noticed 2 things… the supa cybork enhancement on warboss on bike isn’t bad… he’s 4+ 5++ 4+++ with it and 7w t6 plus a unit of warbikers/nobs on bikes door ablative wounds.
But why is his killsaw 4+ ws? It makes no sense since his pk is 3+ ws…
Beardedragon wrote: Because like with many other forge world things they fethed it up.
Why does the Kill tank not have an invulnerable save? No one knows except its Forge world.
It's even dumber because the Legend'ed Kill Krusha has the 6+ invuln, so it looks like an oversight.
FW is a law unto itself and does as it chooses, seemingly on a whim.
Not specifically tactics related, but does anyone happen to own an AOS Mangler Squig? I'm looking to potentially make some squiggified Deff Dreads and I'd like to know how the individual Squigs compare size-wise to the torso of the Deff Dread.
tneva82 wrote: Fw has had zero impact on rules since first 8e rules.
Which is why fw unit rules are bad. Can't have players buying resin when plastic has higher profit margin
I think it's more strategic thing. With so many great third party sculptors, the maturity of 3D printing and the immense growth of the community, resin models manufactures by hand simply have losts their reason to exist outside of extremely expensive titans. Therefore GW is winding down the whole thing, investing as little money as possible until it's gone.
Forceride wrote: I don't think so, you can add a mekk and shoot those guns on 3 so it's actually 345 and 355. The value of the tanks is more wounds, more guns and ability to move if opponent get's to close. Also they have more move then kans. It's just a better profile bar melee but you don't want to melee with them.
I think the mek only affects a single model, not a whole unit? Either way I think my grots are gonna build some tanks
That is how we have been playing it at our store (4 ork players in the crusade)
"can select one friendly Orks Vehicle model within 3 " of this model. That Vehicle model ... each time that Vehicle model makes an attack add +1 to the hit roll"
What are people's preferred reserves units at the moment? I'm having a reasonable amount of success with my Squiggoth full of Flash Gitz and twin Skorcha Deff Dread coming in from reserves, and my Deffkoptas coming in via deep strike.
Also, assuming you're tight on points; 10 Flash Gitz, 5 Flash Gitz with Badrukk, or are they functionally the same?
Beardedragon wrote: Been trying out the kill tank in two different games, against Thousand sons and now Tyranids.
With a Mek of course.
I was not impressed honestly. Id rather spend my 300 points else where.
Was this with the bursta kannon presumably? I'm assuming the lack of towering doesn't do it any favours.
oh yea it was with the bursta cannon. Towering didnt really do me anything negative it just doesnt really shoot as much as i want to. And its damage output of that kannon is kinda meh when you roll average. Definitely not worth 305 points + 45
I am gonna try out my orks for the first time in 10th this weekend.
I am planning to take 20 beastsnaggas + 40 boys (20 shootas, 20 melee).
I also have beast-boss, regular boss and big mek with shokk attack gun.
Would you run them as big blocks of 20 each, or is it more useful to take 6x 10 boys?
If they're foot slogging I'd go 3x20 do you maximize the benefit from attached characters. But I'd also mix the shootas and sluggas and have 10 of each in each mob so that they can contribute a small amount of shooting on their way across the board.
I am gonna try out my orks for the first time in 10th this weekend.
I am planning to take 20 beastsnaggas + 40 boys (20 shootas, 20 melee).
I also have beast-boss, regular boss and big mek with shokk attack gun.
Would you run them as big blocks of 20 each, or is it more useful to take 6x 10 boys?
If they're foot slogging I'd go 3x20 do you maximize the benefit from attached characters. But I'd also mix the shootas and sluggas and have 10 of each in each mob so that they can contribute a small amount of shooting on their way across the board.
Agree. If you are not attaching a character 2x10 is better because free nobz.
I don't know if this has been answered already, but how do you feel about the tankbustas in this edition? Are they still viable now, since they have to take rokkit pistols and tankhammer and can only be taken in units of five models?
Would it make sense to run a unit with a KFF Big Mek?
Bonde wrote: I don't know if this has been answered already, but how do you feel about the tankbustas in this edition? Are they still viable now, since they have to take rokkit pistols and tankhammer and can only be taken in units of five models?
Would it make sense to run a unit with a KFF Big Mek?
Tankbustas are dead in the water right now. Paying premium points for such a small squad with no way to make the unit larger alongside conflicting weaponry in terms of range and strength means you're much better off just taking things like Mek Gunz if you want consistent ranged firepower.
Bonde wrote: I don't know if this has been answered already, but how do you feel about the tankbustas in this edition? Are they still viable now, since they have to take rokkit pistols and tankhammer and can only be taken in units of five models?
Would it make sense to run a unit with a KFF Big Mek?
Sadly, no. The unit is not worth it's points and adding a big mek just makes their efficiency worse. The unit is priced as if it could kill a tank, but it can't - therefore the price should be priced like lootaz, not like flash gits.
By the way, wanted to thank you guys for the feedback on my Beast Snaggas list. I ended up losing to SoB due to some hot rolls for FNP on their part (their Penitent Engines and Mortifiers tanked over 60% of their FNP saves), which let them win a war of attrition, but it was still pretty close since I had an early lead in points. I did see firsthand what people meant by how underwhelming the Kill Rigs are now though. Hitting on 4's for the squig succccks and the loss in AP and ability to be buffed compared to before really hurts their damage output. At their price, they really should have had a 5+ FNP at the very least instead.
I'm going to be playing against Eldar next. Even with the "nerfs" they've received, they're still a solid tier or two above us. I'm going to bring the A-game of Flash Gitz/Badrukk, Gretchin, Beastboss on Squigosaur (with the Killchoppa), Beastbosses in Beast Snagga Boyz units, Mek Gunz and Squighog Boyz with the Nob on Smasha Squig. Are there any suggestions as to what other units I should bring? I guess Kommandos or Stormboyz? I'm kinda assuming I just want to aim for outscoring them since they outdamage us by a country mile.
Grimskul wrote: By the way, wanted to thank you guys for the feedback on my Beast Snaggas list. I ended up losing to SoB due to some hot rolls for FNP on their part (their Penitent Engines and Mortifiers tanked over 60% of their FNP saves), which let them win a war of attrition, but it was still pretty close since I had an early lead in points. I did see firsthand what people meant by how underwhelming the Kill Rigs are now though. Hitting on 4's for the squig succccks and the loss in AP and ability to be buffed compared to before really hurts their damage output. At their price, they really should have had a 5+ FNP at the very least instead.
I'm going to be playing against Eldar next. Even with the "nerfs" they've received, they're still a solid tier or two above us. I'm going to bring the A-game of Flash Gitz/Badrukk, Gretchin, Beastboss on Squigosaur (with the Killchoppa), Beastbosses in Beast Snagga Boyz units, Mek Gunz and Squighog Boyz with the Nob on Smasha Squig. Are there any suggestions as to what other units I should bring? I guess Kommandos or Stormboyz? I'm kinda assuming I just want to aim for outscoring them since they outdamage us by a country mile.
Besides the big mek with shockgun for mekguns rerolls 1? more trucks? There really isn't much more. You can try the mekadread.
Played at a local tournament today where i used a silly list with a stompa, a mek, 10 flash gitz/Badrukk in a trukk (jumping out when needing to shoot and all to get rerolls), 20 teleporting boys and 3 trukks with snagga boys (and the mandatory 2x 10 grots) . It was a 3 game tourney and i lost 2 and won 1. I got turn 1 in literally all the games, and only in my winning game, did my Stompa not whiff completely. Oh and it never survived passed turn 2 in any games. It also never managed to get to close combat, ever.
First game against necrons i lost 55-58 so it was close. My first turn i walked up and shot at a Doomsday ark, and did 5 damage. Which he subsequently healed by 2 or something. Yay
Second game was against Chaos Space Marines which was, surprisingly a victory. I expected to lose considering how hard they can actually shoot. Stompa did really well here (didnt do 800 points worth of well but still). It actually landed good shots and did good damage, for the 2 rounds it was alive. Of course it also exploded and killed 2 obliterators, 6 beast snagga boys and a 7 wound trukk so there is that.
Third game was the craziest game of them all, i lost so big it was over by turn 1. Played against Dark angels and their shooting shenanigans. And let me just say, they would NOT need Oath of moment, to even remotely win. But sure. Anyway i DID get turn 1 and all i could see were some desolators, that iImanaged to kill like 3 of. Yea.. A space marine predator then dealt 24 wounds to my Stompa. Ouch. And he still had everything else he needed to shoot. Between his desolators shooting without line of sight and the terrain being more of a shooting lane (to get room for my stompa to get through lol) I legit lost half my army by turn 1. I scored 36 points that game.
To sum up my experience of pros and cons of a stompa. Pros: ??? Great melee I mean you can shoot far, and hit hard if the gods smile upon you
Cons: everything else. Swingy damage Swingy shooting Terrible fething defensive profile for 800 points. Where is my 4+ invul save? Reduction to damage? Anything? Paying 800 points for such a swingy profile is just not ever going to make sense.
But to be fair i never brought the Stompa to win i just wanted to see what it could do. I was hoping just for a single win and i got it. But seriously, 5 damage from my Deff kannon and supa rokkits to a doomsday ark? And 3 dead desolators from the same 2 weapons? Sure why not. Its not like 800 points worth if stompa should be lethal or anything lol.
But what did well? Flash Gitz with Badrukk is always worth its points. Did gods work in 2 battles. Oh and teleporting boys is really interesting. I should play around with that in maybe squads of 10 rather than 20. Or maybe just 2 lone weirdboys to teleport around to do missions.
Grimskul wrote: By the way, wanted to thank you guys for the feedback on my Beast Snaggas list. I ended up losing to SoB due to some hot rolls for FNP on their part (their Penitent Engines and Mortifiers tanked over 60% of their FNP saves), which let them win a war of attrition, but it was still pretty close since I had an early lead in points. I did see firsthand what people meant by how underwhelming the Kill Rigs are now though. Hitting on 4's for the squig succccks and the loss in AP and ability to be buffed compared to before really hurts their damage output. At their price, they really should have had a 5+ FNP at the very least instead.
I'm going to be playing against Eldar next. Even with the "nerfs" they've received, they're still a solid tier or two above us. I'm going to bring the A-game of Flash Gitz/Badrukk, Gretchin, Beastboss on Squigosaur (with the Killchoppa), Beastbosses in Beast Snagga Boyz units, Mek Gunz and Squighog Boyz with the Nob on Smasha Squig. Are there any suggestions as to what other units I should bring? I guess Kommandos or Stormboyz? I'm kinda assuming I just want to aim for outscoring them since they outdamage us by a country mile.
Besides the big mek with shockgun for mekguns rerolls 1? more trucks? There really isn't much more. You can try the mekadread.
I think the biggest change for list tailoring is type of Mek guns… KMK is the all rounder that’s usually better but the traktor kannon is brutal vs certain lists. I mean shokk gun and Mek for 3+ reroll 1 is fairly accurate but that’s a lot of investment for a d6+1 mortal wounds vs a flyer unit.
the_scotsman wrote: Only decent? 5 of them still fwoosh 10 GEQ off an objective with the help of their trukk.
I'd say whether to go 5 or 10 is gonna be meta dependent. I'd start looking at 10 more if melee was more common, but currently people do a lot of holding objectives with tokens. The biggest reason to go for 10 IMO is to have them as a tool to help them to have a little cushion to survive overwatch. Lets say your opponent was rocking hexmark destroyers for example - drive a bus of 5 burnas up to them, its just gonna free overwatch and kill 3/5. Drive up 10, and you can still clear the objective.
Kommandos are better at that particular gig of course but sometimes you need something that can pinch hit.
Am I missing something?
A unit of 5 has 4 burnas, which get 4d6 hits, an average of 14 hits, wound 9.33, another 3.11 with full re-rolls 8.29 dead after armor, one or two less for targets not on an objective. If there is a leader with them, they have some extra defensive measures it quickly looks terrible, against orks and marines you might as well not bother shooting at all. Not to mention playing around them is quite easy.
I get your point about lone operatives, but I feel like a dakka jet, SJD or even just a trukk full of beastsnaggas would do a better job for less points.
I love my burnas, but they have been nothing but a huge disappointment so far.
The 2 big shootas between the trukk and the mandatory spanna make up an additional 1.71w vs GEQ, hence my comment. Agreed about additional defenses - I've found few people are actually running min token squads. Mainly I run burnas in 10s or rather 2x5.
Two comments on that:
1) I don't run big shootas on spannas, I see no reason to. KMB have 3 shots flat now and are free.
2) You can't have an infinite amount of trukks anymore, so you are paying an opportunity cost here. Therefore it would be wrong to factor in the trukk as part of the burna unit's value.
In any case,
I've found the fact that they do the majority of their stuff in shooting rather than in melee is the main draw of them for me, because you can move, disembark and shoot, you get a much more reliable approach path to get to something you want to clear off.
That actually is a good point. It has never played out that way for me, and you can't flip objectives this way either. I'd rather use flash gits for this tasks, but if to works for you, sure.
"Against orks and marines you might as well not bother shooting at all" is an odd comment, seeing as they do have the wound rr. A unit of 10 matches the output of snaggaz into MEQs, less effective into orks but they still clear 12.
I was talking about units of 5, but sure. You re-roll ones most of the times, not everything. For 10 you get 8d6 = 28 hits, 15-16 wounds, 2-3 dead marines, including whatever gun the spannas have. Which means you spent 180 points to not even kill a whole unit of marines unless you go for a super narrow target selection (on objective, no defensive buffs, no worthwhile overwatch) in order to get value from them. You can't even properly deny area with their overwatch because most units will just casually walk through the flames.
I prefer to plan for the worst case, not for the best case, because otherwise I'm stuck with sub-optimal units when things don't go my way for whatever reason.
So I'd take 10 beastsnaggas with their reliable 8ish wounds against marines for that trukk over burnas any day. At least they can help me fight through a screen of infiltrators, assault intercessors or a gravis squad when needed and are able to flip an objective against pretty much any marine unit due to OC2.
I've finally had a game with a list that I felt was solid, and burnas played a big role in that. To put it bluntly, I was wrong.
We played to the bottom of T3 with a VP score of 37 to 28, but my regular dark angel opponent was essentially tabled with just 1 inceptor and 3 eliminators lead by a librarian left - and the later would have been in both burna and charge range next turn, so he conceded.
The list was... *drum roll*... a traditional battlewagon bash
We were playing the mission where home objectives don't score for primary and the other objectives start disappearing one by one, so the gretchin were kind of useless outside of generating a single CP over the course of the game. I did draw a tactical objective which required my to hold the home objective and the other unit did make a unit of bolter inceptor deep strike on them without a single VP to show for the effort, so that's a win in my book.
Da red gobbo really should be a codex unit, he is a great way to spend your last few points and give a non-mans land rushing grot unit some bite. Shouldn't be too hard to make a non-festive version of him, right?
Flash gits are bonkers. This is my first game with them ever, and true to my ork nature I drove them straight to the biggest thing on the table (a repulsor), jumped out and opened fire. Despite not getting the extra attacks for aiming at the closest target, the tank was blown away and left behind a very unhappy unit of now footbound bladeguard lead by a judicar. Needless to say, my opponent completely freaked, oathed them and clobbered them to green paste afterwards. Still worth it, ork shooting hasn't been that effective since 5th edition lootas.
Bringing a battlewagon as a ride instead of a truck also paid off. Despite being oath'ed my opponent whiffed a couple of big guns on it and then decided to cut his losses and killed a nobz' trukk instead.
True to the battlewagon bash, I absolutely brought a burna wagon, and it did the arch-arsonist proud. First turn it torched a unit of helblasters, second turn the bladeguard went up in smoke and turn 3 the burnas jumped out to get their re-rolls and burned a deathwing command squad to the ground (triggering the concession). Just like with the lootas, the KMB pulled a lot of their weight, especially with the mek running behind the wagon and buffing them to 4+ absolutely being worth every single point.
Both battlewagon's guns amounted to pretty much nothing despite mek buffs, but the extra durability over a trukk was absolutely necessary for the units they were transporting. Their melee is okish, but not that great against units with good saves - however the mek buff works for both shooting and melee, the battlewagon still go some mileage out of it. I even got to use carreen! for the first time when the git's transport was killed by bladeguard, though I used it to move it away from my own units.
The KBB didn't add much value. The most dangerous units were usually those making use of oath of monent, so the -1 to hit didn't do anything at all. Otherwise the gun lacks AP, the brunas lack range.
SJD, on the flip side, were awesome. In just 3 turns they scored 15 VP by jumping to wherever I needed them, always taking care to not put them in harms way and took potshots at whatever was in range. The occasional devastating wounds trigger always was... well, devastating to the unit hit by it. They also synergize well with meks, as you can jump directly onto them for a repair job and them shoot someone with a 2+ shokk rifle and 4+ rokkit.
Nobz were being nobz, killing stuff with klaws, taking shooting way above their weight class. It's worth noting that they were unable to do anything about the bladeguard buffed with fight first from the judicar or even the judicar itself.
Kommadoz are a no-brainer for T1 scoring, did nothing worth noting otherwise.
Tankbustas are dead in the water right now. Paying premium points for such a small squad with no way to make the unit larger alongside conflicting weaponry in terms of range and strength means you're much better off just taking things like Mek Gunz if you want consistent ranged firepower.
JohnU wrote: I could stomach the price if I could adjust the loadout, but yeah box spec just kills them.
Afrodactyl wrote: Tankbustas maaay become usable if they get a new kit with the upcoming codex, assuming that;
A. They're not grossly overcosted like they are now.
B. They come with a "fixed loadout" of all rokkits and optional tankhammers
C. The codex is actually changing our datasheets rather than just being a new detachment and sheets for whatever new units they give us.
All being said, I'm not too hopeful.
LunarSol wrote: Tankbustas are neat models to use as special weapons in units of Boyz. :')
Sadly, no. The unit is not worth it's points and adding a big mek just makes their efficiency worse. The unit is priced as if it could kill a tank, but it can't - therefore the price should be priced like lootaz, not like flash gits.
Thanks for the answers guys. That was exactly what I feared. I guess we need to wait for for the codex for them to be fixed. Perhaps they will get a new kit with all rokkit options. I can see that being forced to take one melee weapon, and one short range weapon in a small, elite priced unit just doesn't make sense. The only way it would make sense would be to make the models with tankhammer and rokkit pistols very cheap in points, but that still leaves you with three models that can actually shoot.
10snaggaz (in trukk)
5 nobz (in trukk)
5 burnaz (in trukk with nobz)
10 flashgitz (in trukk)
4 grot tanks all rokkits
3 squigboyz
gretchin
5 stormboyz
grot tanks: gotta say i am impressed with the grottanks! they are great vs massed infantry, cause of blast and s9 ap2 3dmg makes them also great vs. light tanks and heavy infantry. vs real tanks... not so much. the only alternative i see are KmK's.
burnaz did ok, good range with the trukk.
Flashgitz are amazing. first turn i drove them behind a building and took potshots at a guardian unit and together with the grottanks wiped em, so only the farseer remained with 2 wounds left. afterwards the farseer didnt move because he feared overwatch, so basically took him out of the game. in 2nd turn they disembarked into building. 5 of em and badruk took all but 1 wound off a wraithlord, the other 5 anihilated a squad of reapers in cover.
mozdrag tanked like a champ, then got charged by wraithblades (survived no problem), wiffed his attacks but landed a critical wound on one of the chompas attack, dealing 4 mortals.
so yeah its a pitty he only gets ap 1. but i get it, he's there to draw fire from the brightlances, which would otherwise just delete trukks left and right.
nobz+ warbosstanked also pretty well and did great damage in melee. warboss is a beast in CC. i think HWKC is mandatory for him, to fish for those sixes when he waaghs.
i think badruk + 5 FG are mandatory in any of my lists, as are grottanks and mozdrag.
if i would up my list to 2000 i would simply add more snaggaz in trukks (for objective play), maybe some KMK's (for antitank) and upgrade a trukk to a BW (to relief some of the tankyness off of mozdrag).
nevertheless... we seriously really lack high strenght units vs big tough tanks. i bareley amnaged to kill wavesserpents... if i would ever face a redeemer... i think i would just auto concede we got no melee besides titanic stuff and only some moderate shooting from KMK's and the mekflyer...
the_scotsman wrote: Only decent? 5 of them still fwoosh 10 GEQ off an objective with the help of their trukk.
I'd say whether to go 5 or 10 is gonna be meta dependent. I'd start looking at 10 more if melee was more common, but currently people do a lot of holding objectives with tokens. The biggest reason to go for 10 IMO is to have them as a tool to help them to have a little cushion to survive overwatch. Lets say your opponent was rocking hexmark destroyers for example - drive a bus of 5 burnas up to them, its just gonna free overwatch and kill 3/5. Drive up 10, and you can still clear the objective.
Kommandos are better at that particular gig of course but sometimes you need something that can pinch hit.
Am I missing something?
A unit of 5 has 4 burnas, which get 4d6 hits, an average of 14 hits, wound 9.33, another 3.11 with full re-rolls 8.29 dead after armor, one or two less for targets not on an objective. If there is a leader with them, they have some extra defensive measures it quickly looks terrible, against orks and marines you might as well not bother shooting at all. Not to mention playing around them is quite easy.
I get your point about lone operatives, but I feel like a dakka jet, SJD or even just a trukk full of beastsnaggas would do a better job for less points.
I love my burnas, but they have been nothing but a huge disappointment so far.
The 2 big shootas between the trukk and the mandatory spanna make up an additional 1.71w vs GEQ, hence my comment. Agreed about additional defenses - I've found few people are actually running min token squads. Mainly I run burnas in 10s or rather 2x5.
Two comments on that: 1) I don't run big shootas on spannas, I see no reason to. KMB have 3 shots flat now and are free. 2) You can't have an infinite amount of trukks anymore, so you are paying an opportunity cost here. Therefore it would be wrong to factor in the trukk as part of the burna unit's value. In any case,
I've found the fact that they do the majority of their stuff in shooting rather than in melee is the main draw of them for me, because you can move, disembark and shoot, you get a much more reliable approach path to get to something you want to clear off.
That actually is a good point. It has never played out that way for me, and you can't flip objectives this way either. I'd rather use flash gits for this tasks, but if to works for you, sure.
"Against orks and marines you might as well not bother shooting at all" is an odd comment, seeing as they do have the wound rr. A unit of 10 matches the output of snaggaz into MEQs, less effective into orks but they still clear 12.
I was talking about units of 5, but sure. You re-roll ones most of the times, not everything. For 10 you get 8d6 = 28 hits, 15-16 wounds, 2-3 dead marines, including whatever gun the spannas have. Which means you spent 180 points to not even kill a whole unit of marines unless you go for a super narrow target selection (on objective, no defensive buffs, no worthwhile overwatch) in order to get value from them. You can't even properly deny area with their overwatch because most units will just casually walk through the flames. I prefer to plan for the worst case, not for the best case, because otherwise I'm stuck with sub-optimal units when things don't go my way for whatever reason. So I'd take 10 beastsnaggas with their reliable 8ish wounds against marines for that trukk over burnas any day. At least they can help me fight through a screen of infiltrators, assault intercessors or a gravis squad when needed and are able to flip an objective against pretty much any marine unit due to OC2.
I've finally had a game with a list that I felt was solid, and burnas played a big role in that. To put it bluntly, I was wrong.
We played to the bottom of T3 with a VP score of 37 to 28, but my regular dark angel opponent was essentially tabled with just 1 inceptor and 3 eliminators lead by a librarian left - and the later would have been in both burna and charge range next turn, so he conceded.
The list was... *drum roll*... a traditional battlewagon bash
We were playing the mission where home objectives don't score for primary and the other objectives start disappearing one by one, so the gretchin were kind of useless outside of generating a single CP over the course of the game. I did draw a tactical objective which required my to hold the home objective and the other unit did make a unit of bolter inceptor deep strike on them without a single VP to show for the effort, so that's a win in my book. Da red gobbo really should be a codex unit, he is a great way to spend your last few points and give a non-mans land rushing grot unit some bite. Shouldn't be too hard to make a non-festive version of him, right?
Flash gits are bonkers. This is my first game with them ever, and true to my ork nature I drove them straight to the biggest thing on the table (a repulsor), jumped out and opened fire. Despite not getting the extra attacks for aiming at the closest target, the tank was blown away and left behind a very unhappy unit of now footbound bladeguard lead by a judicar. Needless to say, my opponent completely freaked, oathed them and clobbered them to green paste afterwards. Still worth it, ork shooting hasn't been that effective since 5th edition lootas. Bringing a battlewagon as a ride instead of a truck also paid off. Despite being oath'ed my opponent whiffed a couple of big guns on it and then decided to cut his losses and killed a nobz' trukk instead.
True to the battlewagon bash, I absolutely brought a burna wagon, and it did the arch-arsonist proud. First turn it torched a unit of helblasters, second turn the bladeguard went up in smoke and turn 3 the burnas jumped out to get their re-rolls and burned a deathwing command squad to the ground (triggering the concession). Just like with the lootas, the KMB pulled a lot of their weight, especially with the mek running behind the wagon and buffing them to 4+ absolutely being worth every single point.
Both battlewagon's guns amounted to pretty much nothing despite mek buffs, but the extra durability over a trukk was absolutely necessary for the units they were transporting. Their melee is okish, but not that great against units with good saves - however the mek buff works for both shooting and melee, the battlewagon still go some mileage out of it. I even got to use carreen! for the first time when the git's transport was killed by bladeguard, though I used it to move it away from my own units.
The KBB didn't add much value. The most dangerous units were usually those making use of oath of monent, so the -1 to hit didn't do anything at all. Otherwise the gun lacks AP, the brunas lack range. SJD, on the flip side, were awesome. In just 3 turns they scored 15 VP by jumping to wherever I needed them, always taking care to not put them in harms way and took potshots at whatever was in range. The occasional devastating wounds trigger always was... well, devastating to the unit hit by it. They also synergize well with meks, as you can jump directly onto them for a repair job and them shoot someone with a 2+ shokk rifle and 4+ rokkit.
Nobz were being nobz, killing stuff with klaws, taking shooting way above their weight class. It's worth noting that they were unable to do anything about the bladeguard buffed with fight first from the judicar or even the judicar itself.
Kommadoz are a no-brainer for T1 scoring, did nothing worth noting otherwise.
Did you play the SJD as being able to relocate and shoot? And would you ever just consider 2x weirdboys without any boys to otherwise also teleport around to do missions? At that point they would do the same, albeit at a chance of 1/6 that your da jump wont go off.
Gotta say your list looks weird. Did you really buy 2 meks to give +1 to hit for a battle wagon and the KMB sitting inside of it?
Im not sure i consider 135 points worth of kommandos no brainer for turn 1 scoring. One could use 65 points of stormboys for the same purpose though. Your list seem very tactical, with very little killing potential. How on earth did the burnaboys burn so many things? Agree on the flash gitz. They are bonkers. Also 4 stock attacks with their choppers? Thats 57 attacks on a waaagh, wounding space marines in melee on 2s sine Badrukk gives them -1 toughness and we get +1 strength on a waaagh.
Bonde wrote: Thanks for the answers guys. That was exactly what I feared. I guess we need to wait for for the codex for them to be fixed. Perhaps they will get a new kit with all rokkit options. I can see that being forced to take one melee weapon, and one short range weapon in a small, elite priced unit just doesn't make sense. The only way it would make sense would be to make the models with tankhammer and rokkit pistols very cheap in points, but that still leaves you with three models that can actually shoot.
Rokkits are priced in at about ~5 points on kommandoz, spannas and boyz, there is absolutely no reason to charge more than 13 for a tankbusta with a rokkit, let alone for either of the inferior options.
That said, I'd be very surprised if a plastic kit would allow for full rokkit load-outs. It always has been a nightmare to balance such a glass cannon unit. At best, one of the orks will be a nob-combi build to allow taking 10 in one unit again, at worst there will be a beastsnagga unit that has a similar role and tank bustas become legends.
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Beardedragon wrote: Did you play the SJD as being able to relocate and shoot?
Yes. Despite the wording being odd, the rules are pretty clear on that.
And would you ever just consider 2x weirdboys without any boys to otherwise also teleport around to do missions? At that point they would do the same, albeit at a chance of 1/6 that your da jump wont go off.
Absolutely not. The big selling point of SJDs is just costing 85 points, being sufficiently resilient to small army fire to not care about other backfield units and actually contributing meaningful firepower from 24" away.
A weirdboy can get gunned down by a unit of guardsmen or bolter marines easily, meaning it's really just an unreliable suicide unit that might not even be able to score. OC3 also works in their favor for this tasks as they can take away an objective from rhinos or 3 marine units, or double up on an objective and deny scoring easily, weird boyz can't do that. If you aren't looking for vehicle synergy, you should use storm boyz for this task.
Solo Boss Snikrot would be worth a try, but he is more expensive than a SJD anyways.
Gotta say your list looks weird. Did you really buy 2 meks to give +1 to hit for a battle wagon and the KMB sitting inside of it?
One mek for battlewagon+KMB, one mek for battlewagon+flash gitz if you aren't in a position where you want to disembark yet. If you disembark to the side, the mek can keep up with the wagon for two turns, even if it goes at full speed. My opponent hid his stuff well T1, so the flash gits had to get out to kill his tank, spoiling that plan a bit. There also was the thought of [Hazardous] zaping the wagon for 3 MW and needing a countermeasure for that.
They also buffed/repaired the buggies when needed.
The repairs were just as relevant as the buff though, the two meks repaired 9 wounds over the three turns the game went and those definitely kept one SJD alive and protected my nobz from being charged by the bladeguard as one bw was parked in front of them as a roadblock and just barely survived shooting at 2 wounds, forcing the bladeguard to finish it off.
Im not sure i consider 135 points worth of kommandos no brainer for turn 1 scoring. One could use 65 points of stormboys for the same purpose though.
Maybe, but I prefer kommandoz for them be just durable enough that no one can casually shoot them off an objective. Stealth and the distraction grot makes them a pain to remove for my opponents, especially if I put them under pressure. Stormboyz just die to a flanking unit.
Your list seem very tactical, with very little killing potential. How on earth did the burnaboys burn so many things?
Very little killing potential? That's not how I perceived it. Sure, it's not an eldar army, but it totally melted everything that came close enough. Warbosses and Nobz crush any marine unit they touch and despite my comment on battlewagon shooting the killkannon and metric ton of S5 shots do cause a ton of saves - often making my opponent use stratagems to protect his unit, just for me to then point all the other units at something else and kill the unprotected unit.
The burna wagon killed so much by weight of numbers. Following the math from the post above, 16 burnas themselves already deal 9ish wounds to a squad of MEQ and neither armor of contempt nor cover can protect them from that. On top of that, you have another 12 S9 AP-2 d6dmg shots to blast a hole into more durable targets, potentially hitting on 4+. With the help of their wagon's guns they had no trouble killing the helblasters or the bladeguard. For the terminators, I had already killed one with the careening wagon, one of the KMBs killed another one and the remaining three were wiped out by 11 unsaved wounds - above average, but not terribly so.
Tactically, I wasn't sitting on objectives scoring points, but barreling toward the far no-man land's objective since it would be worth 8/15 VP in the last two turns of the mission we played. While they took out one of my threats each turn, the marines were unable to stop the big deathball of battlewagons, nobz and buggies coming towards them, essentially losing the vast amount of their army trying to defend objectives from me, while the gretchin, SJD and kommandoz prevented any backfield shenanigans on their side.
Agree on the flash gitz. They are bonkers. Also 4 stock attacks with their choppers? Thats 57 attacks on a waaagh, wounding space marines in melee on 2s sine Badrukk gives them -1 toughness and we get +1 strength on a waaagh.
Shoot one target, chop another target to death.
I just go one turn of shooting (probably could have used them better), and overwatched on my opponent's turn before they died, so I never got to fight with them.
The little killing potential i was talking about was more centered around killing high toughness targets. Surely you can kill smaller toughness things as thats not where orks are bad, but i dont see a lot of targets being able to kill anything toughness 10 or 11.
Your Nobz can do that on the waagh turn, your flash gitz can reliably do that one turn with the ammo runt, and maybe the battlewagons can on the waaagh turn as well if you are lucky.
But once the Waagh turn is out you are not going to be killing vehicles reliably i would say.
There are no squighog boys, mozrog, beastboss with snagga boys, beastboss on squig, nobz on smasha squigs with kill choppas, Ghaz, mega nobz or any of those.
I would possibly worry a bit about how you would fare against knights, chaos knights, or another army that focuses a lot on actual vehicles or monsters, maybe a monster mash from Tyranids.
What vehicles did your enemy dark angels use?
But maybe it fares alright, i dont know. It just looks more tactical than killy to me. Which is fine given the nature of 10th edition.
Played a fun game last night vs WE. I’m pretty tired of playing msu spam that just plays the mission so decided to go full smash with ghaz, megaboss, 2x5 manz, 3x10 snaggas w/ beastboss in each, mozrog and 6 kmk. First turn just premeasured a bit and got close enough to try and bait long charges, opponent then didn’t make hardly any, turn two charged basically entire army into their entire army and killed angron, daemon prince, two defilers and leaving a third with a few wounds.
We called it at bottom of 2. Gotta say it was nice krumping stuff again, I don’t think I can really play msu body block with orks for more than 2 games in a row without losing my mind. Also after 15 or so games I’m starting to kinda favor manz over nobz. I like nobz but they really are more of a one use missile because -1 to wound isn’t usually gonna save them against most opponents whereas manz have the staying power against most things not eldar or gsc and will at least be wounding vehicles. Snaggas did snagga things gimping all the defilers thanks to makaris lethals. Megaboss I’m actually liking a lot more now. I think I was way too hard on him by initial impression. Basically the only other character outside squigbosses and ghaz that isn’t gonna die instantly and can actually hurt high T.
Beardedragon wrote: The little killing potential i was talking about was more centered around killing high toughness targets. Surely you can kill smaller toughness things as thats not where orks are bad, but i dont see a lot of targets being able to kill anything toughness 10 or 11.
Your Nobz can do that on the waagh turn, your flash gitz can reliably do that one turn with the ammo runt, and maybe the battlewagons can on the waaagh turn as well if you are lucky.
But once the Waagh turn is out you are not going to be killing vehicles reliably i would say.
There are no squighog boys, mozrog, beastboss with snagga boys, beastboss on squig, nobz on smasha squigs with kill choppas, Ghaz, mega nobz or any of those.
I would possibly worry a bit about how you would fare against knights, chaos knights, or another army that focuses a lot on actual vehicles or monsters, maybe a monster mash from Tyranids.
What vehicles did your enemy dark angels use?
But maybe it fares alright, i dont know. It just looks more tactical than killy to me. Which is fine given the nature of 10th edition.
Well, I did take down a repulsor (flash gits), a redemptor (SJD/KMB/nobz) and the missile primaris speeder (assorted stuff). In my experience, none of the units you listed outside of squighogs deal significantly more damage to a vehicle than a unit of nobz lead by a warboss. Knights are very likely to be an issue for the list because most of the units I play rely on armor and toughness to survive and both mean nothing to them. Damage wise, almost everything in the list had 2 damage or more (battlewagon melee, killkannon, SJD, KBB, nobz, flash gits) and my opponent absolutely felt that. Grenades and tank shock also really helped dealing with the redemptor and I had CP to spare since I did not have to use 'ard as nails ever turn.
That said, dropping kommandoz, KBB and a unit of gretchin for hogs might and maybe fit in a beastboss on squigosaur is high on the list of things to try. The other thing I want to try is the mek workshop. I do have to try the 2d3 repairs per turn. Another though would be trying to switch the nobz for beastsnaggas lead by beastbosses. Or if my kilrig ever gets done printing, I'll try that.
It's by no means perfect, but it worked a lot better for me than anything I've tried this edition so far.
flaming tadpole wrote: Played a fun game last night vs WE. I’m pretty tired of playing msu spam that just plays the mission so decided to go full smash with ghaz, megaboss, 2x5 manz, 3x10 snaggas w/ beastboss in each, mozrog and 6 kmk. First turn just premeasured a bit and got close enough to try and bait long charges, opponent then didn’t make hardly any, turn two charged basically entire army into their entire army and killed angron, daemon prince, two defilers and leaving a third with a few wounds.
We called it at bottom of 2. Gotta say it was nice krumping stuff again, I don’t think I can really play msu body block with orks for more than 2 games in a row without losing my mind. Also after 15 or so games I’m starting to kinda favor manz over nobz. I like nobz but they really are more of a one use missile because -1 to wound isn’t usually gonna save them against most opponents whereas manz have the staying power against most things not eldar or gsc and will at least be wounding vehicles. Snaggas did snagga things gimping all the defilers thanks to makaris lethals. Megaboss I’m actually liking a lot more now. I think I was way too hard on him by initial impression. Basically the only other character outside squigbosses and ghaz that isn’t gonna die instantly and can actually hurt high T.
Funny, i think their both "one use missile", have yet to have meganobz last more then 1 turn too. Nobz i came to the conclusion 5 man squads is perfect, even if wiped they kill a lot. last game against nids they cleared stealers and even did 7 damage to a scythed hierule. I barely won that game by T2 i was in the backfoot. I went with 5 man meganobz with gaz, almost got gaz sniped T1.. while gaz and friends manage to recoup losses(took a full genestealer+character +2 zoanthroapes and left the swarmlord at 2w) i don't think he is viable.. he is still too expensive and meganobz are not that hard to kill, way easier then nobz. What i think is the way is groups of 3 with boss in mega armor, 2 of those in a truck, one with the FNP enhancement makes it feel like a beastboss at 115pts and with sv2, all that is close to 240pts i think? I also think the beastboss with kunning trait is amazing to spam mortal. I have to say i no longer think skarbrad is worth a while and i rather bring a normal beast boss on squig for the 1cp heroic for 6M and charge rerolls. Skarbrad just wiffs too much to be worth mentioning(give him AP damn it!).
What i am considering now is maybe scooping my units while in combat with trucks. By the rules it's now possible to embark while in CC? I will tr next game
Beardedragon wrote: The little killing potential i was talking about was more centered around killing high toughness targets. Surely you can kill smaller toughness things as thats not where orks are bad, but i dont see a lot of targets being able to kill anything toughness 10 or 11.
Your Nobz can do that on the waagh turn, your flash gitz can reliably do that one turn with the ammo runt, and maybe the battlewagons can on the waaagh turn as well if you are lucky.
But once the Waagh turn is out you are not going to be killing vehicles reliably i would say.
There are no squighog boys, mozrog, beastboss with snagga boys, beastboss on squig, nobz on smasha squigs with kill choppas, Ghaz, mega nobz or any of those.
I would possibly worry a bit about how you would fare against knights, chaos knights, or another army that focuses a lot on actual vehicles or monsters, maybe a monster mash from Tyranids.
What vehicles did your enemy dark angels use?
But maybe it fares alright, i dont know. It just looks more tactical than killy to me. Which is fine given the nature of 10th edition.
Well, I did take down a repulsor (flash gits), a redemptor (SJD/KMB/nobz) and the missile primaris speeder (assorted stuff).
In my experience, none of the units you listed outside of squighogs deal significantly more damage to a vehicle than a unit of nobz lead by a warboss.
Knights are very likely to be an issue for the list because most of the units I play rely on armor and toughness to survive and both mean nothing to them. Damage wise, almost everything in the list had 2 damage or more (battlewagon melee, killkannon, SJD, KBB, nobz, flash gits) and my opponent absolutely felt that. Grenades and tank shock also really helped dealing with the redemptor and I had CP to spare since I did not have to use 'ard as nails ever turn.
That said, dropping kommandoz, KBB and a unit of gretchin for hogs might and maybe fit in a beastboss on squigosaur is high on the list of things to try.
The other thing I want to try is the mek workshop. I do have to try the 2d3 repairs per turn.
Another though would be trying to switch the nobz for beastsnaggas lead by beastbosses. Or if my kilrig ever gets done printing, I'll try that.
It's by no means perfect, but it worked a lot better for me than anything I've tried this edition so far.
I have only tried one game with 2 kill rigs in 10th against world eaters and i was not impressed. Going down in AP, losing its mortal wounds damage out put and hitting on 4s with the squig (which went from AP-3 to AP-1, ouch!) all the while going up in price to 220... I was not impressed at all. Although i also did not use a mek to give it +1 to hit so maybe that can do something. But without the mek at least it seemed a bit mediocre. I would probably opt for a cheaper battlewagon then.
No idea on the Mek Shop, i dont own one. But i will definitely try and fit in 2 dragstas in my armies to see how i can play around with them. I was just under the impression they sucked.
Beardedragon wrote: I have only tried one game with 2 kill rigs in 10th against world eaters and i was not impressed. Going down in AP, losing its mortal wounds damage out put and hitting on 4s with the squig (which went from AP-3 to AP-1, ouch!) all the while going up in price to 220... I was not impressed at all. Although i also did not use a mek to give it +1 to hit so maybe that can do something. But without the mek at least it seemed a bit mediocre. I would probably opt for a cheaper battlewagon then.
Yeah, I'll keep that in mind. I also like the buff pushing all those S9 attacks across the army to S10, but I'd have to see if that actually works out in the end.
A the hunta rig also doesn't look to shabby if you want to lug a ton of beastsnagga boyz around for objective flipping. At that point it's more about making a model I have work rather than actually making the best choice though.
No idea on the Mek Shop, i dont own one. But i will definitely try and fit in 2 dragstas in my armies to see how i can play around with them. I was just under the impression they sucked.
If you expect an anti-tank gun or a sniper, they will absolutely suck. I see any damage they do as a bonus, they are for grabbing objectives and scoring VP only.
flaming tadpole wrote: Played a fun game last night vs WE. I’m pretty tired of playing msu spam that just plays the mission so decided to go full smash with ghaz, megaboss, 2x5 manz, 3x10 snaggas w/ beastboss in each, mozrog and 6 kmk. First turn just premeasured a bit and got close enough to try and bait long charges, opponent then didn’t make hardly any, turn two charged basically entire army into their entire army and killed angron, daemon prince, two defilers and leaving a third with a few wounds.
We called it at bottom of 2. Gotta say it was nice krumping stuff again, I don’t think I can really play msu body block with orks for more than 2 games in a row without losing my mind. Also after 15 or so games I’m starting to kinda favor manz over nobz. I like nobz but they really are more of a one use missile because -1 to wound isn’t usually gonna save them against most opponents whereas manz have the staying power against most things not eldar or gsc and will at least be wounding vehicles. Snaggas did snagga things gimping all the defilers thanks to makaris lethals. Megaboss I’m actually liking a lot more now. I think I was way too hard on him by initial impression. Basically the only other character outside squigbosses and ghaz that isn’t gonna die instantly and can actually hurt high T.
Yeah honestly the more I lean in towards the attempting to actually do stuff playstyle the more I'm reminded that...it does work, and the fact that you can only really kill big stuff on waagh turn is kind of fine, because how many turns of actual action is there in the average game anyway.
Coh Magnussen wrote: Under what circumstances would you choose a KMB over a rokkit?
Hmmm, like some one mentioned, rokkits are really good into 3 or 2 wound elite infantry, their profile and ap -2 is the ideal weapon. KMB is more your melta weapon, the issue is meltas suck currently, and ours too, D6 is more into big boy's but S9 will limit the big boy's to shoot at, so it's only ever good at light/medium vehicles like T9, the issue is it competes with the reliability of rokkits, since rokkits do a flat 3 damage. It's bad versus elite infantry and bad versus vehicles, i can't see a reason to ever pick it up, unless some changes are applied. Honestly prefer KMK on mek guns over the KMB.
Beardedragon wrote: I have only tried one game with 2 kill rigs in 10th against world eaters and i was not impressed. Going down in AP, losing its mortal wounds damage out put and hitting on 4s with the squig (which went from AP-3 to AP-1, ouch!) all the while going up in price to 220... I was not impressed at all. Although i also did not use a mek to give it +1 to hit so maybe that can do something. But without the mek at least it seemed a bit mediocre. I would probably opt for a cheaper battlewagon then.
Yeah, I'll keep that in mind. I also like the buff pushing all those S9 attacks across the army to S10, but I'd have to see if that actually works out in the end.
A the hunta rig also doesn't look to shabby if you want to lug a ton of beastsnagga boyz around for objective flipping. At that point it's more about making a model I have work rather than actually making the best choice though.
No idea on the Mek Shop, i dont own one. But i will definitely try and fit in 2 dragstas in my armies to see how i can play around with them. I was just under the impression they sucked.
If you expect an anti-tank gun or a sniper, they will absolutely suck. I see any damage they do as a bonus, they are for grabbing objectives and scoring VP only.
problem i fear with the dragsta is that it has large bases so its easy to screen out for mission play. The lone weirdboy is easy to hide and hard to screen out.
Funny, i think their both "one use missile", have yet to have meganobz last more then 1 turn too. Nobz i came to the conclusion 5 man squads is perfect, even if wiped they kill a lot. last game against nids they cleared stealers and even did 7 damage to a scythed hierule. I barely won that game by T2 i was in the backfoot. I went with 5 man meganobz with gaz, almost got gaz sniped T1.. while gaz and friends manage to recoup losses(took a full genestealer+character +2 zoanthroapes and left the swarmlord at 2w) i don't think he is viable.. he is still too expensive and meganobz are not that hard to kill, way easier then nobz. What i think is the way is groups of 3 with boss in mega armor, 2 of those in a truck, one with the FNP enhancement makes it feel like a beastboss at 115pts and with sv2, all that is close to 240pts i think? I also think the beastboss with kunning trait is amazing to spam mortal. I have to say i no longer think skarbrad is worth a while and i rather bring a normal beast boss on squig for the 1cp heroic for 6M and charge rerolls. Skarbrad just wiffs too much to be worth mentioning(give him AP damn it!).
Ya probably depends on how your using them a bit too. I run manz in an army where majority of it is a melee threat so I'm all for my opponent focusing them because I'm just gonna pop ard as nails and watch them waste an unnecessary amount of firepower into a squad that is mostly there to do just that while the rest of my army does damage.
Will have to hard disagree on Mozrog. You need a killchoppa on squigboss to really be in the same ballpark damage wise and at that point for 10pts more you can get a character with a better invun and much higher damage ceiling on big things like knights.
I'm getting back into Orks after a Long time away, and as I'm looking at doing a trukk-heavy infantry force. This naturally led me to the Meks:
Mekaniak: At the end of your Movement phase, you can select one friendly Orks Vehicle model within 3" of this model. That Vehicle model regains up to D3 lost wounds, and, until the start of your next Movement phase, each time that Vehicle model makes an attack, add 1 to the Hit roll. Each model can only be selected for this ability once per turn.
Sounds like they will heal and improve the shooting of a vehicle they are close enough to. My original plan was to put them in some of the trukks, but on page 17 of the Core Rules, it says:
If a unit makes a Normal, Advance or Fall Back move, and every model in that unit ends that move within 3" of a friendly Transport model, they can embark within it. A unit cannot embark if it has already disembarked from a Transport model in the same phase. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked within that Transport model. Unless otherwise stated, units cannot do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked. (emphasis mine)
So in order for the Mek to use the ability, he has to disembark, right? Until he does, he's not really there.
This could still work (disembarking after a trukks movement, or embarking right before the trukk moves), but I wanted to clear the issue up before I start assembling and painting.
If any of you can help, I'd appreciate it! Thanks!
I'm getting back into Orks after a Long time away, and as I'm looking at doing a trukk-heavy infantry force. This naturally led me to the Meks:
Mekaniak: At the end of your Movement phase, you can select one friendly Orks Vehicle model within 3" of this model. That Vehicle model regains up to D3 lost wounds, and, until the start of your next Movement phase, each time that Vehicle model makes an attack, add 1 to the Hit roll. Each model can only be selected for this ability once per turn.
Sounds like they will heal and improve the shooting of a vehicle they are close enough to. My original plan was to put them in some of the trukks, but on page 17 of the Core Rules, it says:
If a unit makes a Normal, Advance or Fall Back move, and every model in that unit ends that move within 3" of a friendly Transport model, they can embark within it. A unit cannot embark if it has already disembarked from a Transport model in the same phase. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked within that Transport model. Unless otherwise stated, units cannot do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked. (emphasis mine)
So in order for the Mek to use the ability, he has to disembark, right? Until he does, he's not really there.
This could still work (disembarking after a trukks movement, or embarking right before the trukk moves), but I wanted to clear the issue up before I start assembling and painting.
If any of you can help, I'd appreciate it! Thanks!
Correct, nobody can use their aura or datasheet abilities while inside a transport unless explicitly stated otherwise, so his buff ability can only be used while outside the transport.
flaming tadpole wrote: Played a fun game last night vs WE. I’m pretty tired of playing msu spam that just plays the mission so decided to go full smash with ghaz, megaboss, 2x5 manz, 3x10 snaggas w/ beastboss in each, mozrog and 6 kmk. First turn just premeasured a bit and got close enough to try and bait long charges, opponent then didn’t make hardly any, turn two charged basically entire army into their entire army and killed angron, daemon prince, two defilers and leaving a third with a few wounds.
We called it at bottom of 2. Gotta say it was nice krumping stuff again, I don’t think I can really play msu body block with orks for more than 2 games in a row without losing my mind. Also after 15 or so games I’m starting to kinda favor manz over nobz. I like nobz but they really are more of a one use missile because -1 to wound isn’t usually gonna save them against most opponents whereas manz have the staying power against most things not eldar or gsc and will at least be wounding vehicles. Snaggas did snagga things gimping all the defilers thanks to makaris lethals. Megaboss I’m actually liking a lot more now. I think I was way too hard on him by initial impression. Basically the only other character outside squigbosses and ghaz that isn’t gonna die instantly and can actually hurt high T.
Yeah honestly the more I lean in towards the attempting to actually do stuff playstyle the more I'm reminded that...it does work, and the fact that you can only really kill big stuff on waagh turn is kind of fine, because how many turns of actual action is there in the average game anyway.
Ya exactly, I'm mostly at the point where it's like the top factions are gonna have an advantage over us regardless and it seems the few ork lists that are actually decent at tourney's atm are ones that lean more into damage probably because it catches opponents off because they're used to seeing msu spam orks that basically don't even interact with anything all game.
We can probably build towards both MSU objective lists and for dealing damage. Our characters are really good force multipliers for our punchy units, and we have really good objective grabbers. Just mucking about in battleforge you could run something like:
Spoiler:
CHARACTER
Beastboss (80 points)
Beastboss (80 points)
Kaptin Badrukk (95 points)
Nob on Smasha Squig (75 points)
Nob on Smasha Squig (75 points)
Warboss (70 points)
BATTLELINE
Beast Snagga Boyz (105 points)
Beast Snagga Boyz (105 points)
DEDICATED TRANSPORT
Trukk (50 points)
Trukk (50 points)
Trukk (50 points)
Trukk (50 points)
OTHER DATASHEETS
Flash Gitz (190 points)
Gretchin (45 points)
Gretchin (45 points)
KMK Mek Gunz (45 points)
KMK Mek Gunz (45 points)
Nobz (230 points)
Shokkjump Dragsta (85 points)
Squighog Boyz (110 points)
Squighog Boyz (110 points)
Stormboyz (65 points)
Stormboyz (65 points)
Stormboyz (65 points)
Lots of units for grabbing objectives, some fast and nasty melee output and a little shooting core. Still very heavily reliant on the Waaagh, but I think that's unavoidable in our current state. That should (I think) be able to dish out plenty of damage while maintaining our strong board control.
We certainly have potential in both aspects of the game, I think our main obstacles are that the toppest tier armies at the moment are either sleepy gatekeepers like knights, or are just bonkers like Aeldari, GSC or Custodes.
Funny, i think their both "one use missile", have yet to have meganobz last more then 1 turn too. Nobz i came to the conclusion 5 man squads is perfect, even if wiped they kill a lot. last game against nids they cleared stealers and even did 7 damage to a scythed hierule. I barely won that game by T2 i was in the backfoot. I went with 5 man meganobz with gaz, almost got gaz sniped T1.. while gaz and friends manage to recoup losses(took a full genestealer+character +2 zoanthroapes and left the swarmlord at 2w) i don't think he is viable.. he is still too expensive and meganobz are not that hard to kill, way easier then nobz. What i think is the way is groups of 3 with boss in mega armor, 2 of those in a truck, one with the FNP enhancement makes it feel like a beastboss at 115pts and with sv2, all that is close to 240pts i think? I also think the beastboss with kunning trait is amazing to spam mortal. I have to say i no longer think skarbrad is worth a while and i rather bring a normal beast boss on squig for the 1cp heroic for 6M and charge rerolls. Skarbrad just wiffs too much to be worth mentioning(give him AP damn it!).
Ya probably depends on how your using them a bit too. I run manz in an army where majority of it is a melee threat so I'm all for my opponent focusing them because I'm just gonna pop ard as nails and watch them waste an unnecessary amount of firepower into a squad that is mostly there to do just that while the rest of my army does damage.
Will have to hard disagree on Mozrog. You need a killchoppa on squigboss to really be in the same ballpark damage wise and at that point for 10pts more you can get a character with a better invun and much higher damage ceiling on big things like knights.
Full melee armie with trucks support, up to 6 trucks. No idea how to do a viable list at the moment with out them. Their that good.
My issue with Moz is his AP, if he does not charge, there is a low chance of doing damage, if fighting big stuff, you will find most of the time between Sv3 or Sv2 with the low AP and few attacks is actually depending on his charge, with MW being in the WS3 bite. Having used him in most my games i seen this plenty of times, he either fumbles his attacks or the opponent makes the saves. To finish it, he also most of the time has to go through FNP. So the things he kill's are generally stuff i can use other tools to kill, but the things i want him to kill he just too unreliable. Anyway this is my point of view the difference to beastboss is it always does MW against the heavy stuff, it ignores their saves, it's not a lot of damage yes, but overall they do the same damage he is just more reliable, it also brings utility making my beast snagga charges more safe and heroic at 1cp is nothing to ignore too for 6'm anyway, maybe you have had more mileage with Moz, but opponent's i have faced showed me i need raw damage on the table, a brick ain't worth it if it is ignored.
Hmmm most my opponents are either shooty to the point they can pop 2 trucks easily or something like nids with shooting/melee, he generally play's at GT so it takes advantage of every little of my mistakes(almost sniped gaz), but i like it that way, improves my play. So he catalogues really quickly my threats. He is also in the same opinion of Moz, in his view, the character is good, but with out rerolls or other tools to fish the mortals and damage, he is just a brick. I am not saying he is bad though i think Moz has play with double beastboss on squig. But if i have to take one i take utility and reliability over big damage potential, because when Moz wiffs he wiffs big time.
I'm loving the idea of lone weirdboys teleporting themselves off to score points in hard to reach places, from turn 1. It set me to working on a list that maxes out fixed secondaries BEL and DTH.
It'ss two of each weirdboyz, 5 stormboyz, snazzwagon (advance and do actions, passive special rule) plus maybe 10 stormboyz who can charge T1 an survive until the end of the turn, and a unit of kommandos also. Snikrot maybe but he's expensive.
The rest of the list is still to hold the middle, lotsa trukks obvs, and a couple of punchy units. I'm gonna try out 10 nobz with half and half loadout so they are happy going into most things.
Is the Gorkanaut cheap and durable enough to take as a distraction carnifex/ bullet magnet? Vs real big guns it could reserve to at least get one round of shooting and a possible charge.
Funny, i think their both "one use missile", have yet to have meganobz last more then 1 turn too. Nobz i came to the conclusion 5 man squads is perfect, even if wiped they kill a lot. last game against nids they cleared stealers and even did 7 damage to a scythed hierule. I barely won that game by T2 i was in the backfoot. I went with 5 man meganobz with gaz, almost got gaz sniped T1.. while gaz and friends manage to recoup losses(took a full genestealer+character +2 zoanthroapes and left the swarmlord at 2w) i don't think he is viable.. he is still too expensive and meganobz are not that hard to kill, way easier then nobz. What i think is the way is groups of 3 with boss in mega armor, 2 of those in a truck, one with the FNP enhancement makes it feel like a beastboss at 115pts and with sv2, all that is close to 240pts i think? I also think the beastboss with kunning trait is amazing to spam mortal. I have to say i no longer think skarbrad is worth a while and i rather bring a normal beast boss on squig for the 1cp heroic for 6M and charge rerolls. Skarbrad just wiffs too much to be worth mentioning(give him AP damn it!).
Ya probably depends on how your using them a bit too. I run manz in an army where majority of it is a melee threat so I'm all for my opponent focusing them because I'm just gonna pop ard as nails and watch them waste an unnecessary amount of firepower into a squad that is mostly there to do just that while the rest of my army does damage.
Will have to hard disagree on Mozrog. You need a killchoppa on squigboss to really be in the same ballpark damage wise and at that point for 10pts more you can get a character with a better invun and much higher damage ceiling on big things like knights.
Full melee armie with trucks support, up to 6 trucks. No idea how to do a viable list at the moment with out them. Their that good.
My issue with Moz is his AP, if he does not charge, there is a low chance of doing damage, if fighting big stuff, you will find most of the time between Sv3 or Sv2 with the low AP and few attacks is actually depending on his charge, with MW being in the WS3 bite. Having used him in most my games i seen this plenty of times, he either fumbles his attacks or the opponent makes the saves. To finish it, he also most of the time has to go through FNP. So the things he kill's are generally stuff i can use other tools to kill, but the things i want him to kill he just too unreliable. Anyway this is my point of view the difference to beastboss is it always does MW against the heavy stuff, it ignores their saves, it's not a lot of damage yes, but overall they do the same damage he is just more reliable, it also brings utility making my beast snagga charges more safe and heroic at 1cp is nothing to ignore too for 6'm anyway, maybe you have had more mileage with Moz, but opponent's i have faced showed me i need raw damage on the table, a brick ain't worth it if it is ignored.
Hmmm most my opponents are either shooty to the point they can pop 2 trucks easily or something like nids with shooting/melee, he generally play's at GT so it takes advantage of every little of my mistakes(almost sniped gaz), but i like it that way, improves my play. So he catalogues really quickly my threats. He is also in the same opinion of Moz, in his view, the character is good, but with out rerolls or other tools to fish the mortals and damage, he is just a brick. I am not saying he is bad though i think Moz has play with double beastboss on squig. But if i have to take one i take utility and reliability over big damage potential, because when Moz wiffs he wiffs big time.
For sure, it’s all just preference really. I just prefer the damage potential over reliability right now based on how we stack up to the big hitters.
I just have to say, I enjoy how many options we have right now. The index is powerful enough to do reasonably well against good competitive opponents, but you don't have to exploit some unintended interaction between rules to do so (nob bikers/green tide/loota star/buggy spam), you just play orks as they are intended to be played. Internal balance is decent enough that you can bring second tier strategies and still do well with them, especially if the opponent is doing the same. For the first time in a long time, it feels like we are playing the same game as others, and not just be some unmotivated developer's afterthought. Sure, some armies are completely busted, but they will be taken down a notch eventually. 9th gave me confidence that GW will take care of the overperformers eventually.
Building lists and playing orks hasn't been this much fun for over a decade.
Jidmah wrote: I just have to say, I enjoy how many options we have right now. The index is powerful enough to do reasonably well against good competitive opponents, but you don't have to exploit some unintended interaction between rules to do so (nob bikers/green tide/loota star/buggy spam), you just play orks as they are intended to be played. Internal balance is decent enough that you can bring second tier strategies and still do well with them, especially if the opponent is doing the same. For the first time in a long time, it feels like we are playing the same game as others, and not just be some unmotivated developer's afterthought.
Sure, some armies are completely busted, but they will be taken down a notch eventually. 9th gave me confidence that GW will take care of the overperformers eventually.
Building lists and playing orks hasn't been this much fun for over a decade.
I'll certainly agree that we're in a good spot right now. There's only a few things that need changing *cough* Tankbustas *cough* and we'd be a major player at top tables.
There's a thread in general about changes people want for their armies that I posted in, so I'm curious to see if you guys share my thoughts on the matter.
Spoiler:
My main gripes with the Ork book;
1. Tankbustas are an absolute travesty. 5 models, pointed like Space Marines, and do absolutely no damage to tanks. Being forced to take rokkit pistols and the tankhamma is also an awful decision. Let them all take rokkits, let you take up to 10 of them, and make the tankhamma an up to 2 per 5 that does flat 3 damage instead of d3. And while we're at it, give them a once per game "Tankbusta Bombs" against a vehicle in melee. Make it a d6 per Tankbusta model and on a 2+ you deal a MW, up to a maximum of 6. Now they're a credible threat against the very things they're supposed to be designed to kill. They can stay at their current points cost if they get all of these buffs.
2. Killsaws need either an extra attack or flat 3 damage. They're just not good currently.
3. Scrapjet needs another twin big shoota, it's literally got two on the model.
4. Lootas need fixing. I understand that hitting on a 4+ with full rerolls to hit is very strong for Orks, so increasing their BS might not be reasonable. You could leave them at 6+ base and just give them more shots. Either base 3 with rapid fire 1, leave them at base 2 but with rapid fire 2, or give them sustained hits 1. Or give them a Dakkawaaagh ability that gives them one of these bonuses during Waaagh turns if they turn out to be too much.
5. Dakkajet should have 3 supa shootas, with the option of a 4th. Again, it's on the model (at least on the app), it should have them by default.
6. Make Waaagh a two turn thing again. Let us keep the extra S and A on melee weapons on the second turn. We rely suuuuper hard on the Waaagh for meaningful damage and it's often our only way of getting by against hard targets.
Afrodactyl wrote: I'll certainly agree that we're in a good spot right now. There's only a few things that need changing *cough* Tankbustas *cough* and we'd be a major player at top tables.
Well, there are a bunch of duds across the index, but for what it feels like the first since 5th we actually have sufficient amounts of decent datasheets to not care about those which are terrible.
There's a thread in general about changes people want for their armies that I posted in, so I'm curious to see if you guys share my thoughts on the matter.
I stopped contributing to general, as it's home of a community for people who do not play warhammer 40k and instead focus on hate GW for everything they do. I have no interest in engaging with those people or their badly informed and biased opinions.
1. Tankbustas are an absolute travesty. 5 models, pointed like Space Marines, and do absolutely no damage to tanks. Being forced to take rokkit pistols and the tankhamma is also an awful decision. Let them all take rokkits, let you take up to 10 of them, and make the tankhamma an up to 2 per 5 that does flat 3 damage instead of d3. And while we're at it, give them a once per game "Tankbusta Bombs" against a vehicle in melee. Make it a d6 per Tankbusta model and on a 2+ you deal a MW, up to a maximum of 6. Now they're a credible threat against the very things they're supposed to be designed to kill. They can stay at their current points cost if they get all of these buffs.
I disagree. Making tank bustas the rokkit spam unit again will just warp the codex again and makes them impossible to balance. Reducing the cost is the way to go, as they should be an expendable unit like burnas or lootas are. If tankhammers and rokkits are worthless, just turn them into ablative wounds that just cost the body and sometimes do something cool during a game.
2. Killsaws need either an extra attack or flat 3 damage. They're just not good currently.
Extra attack, yes (especially for pairs), flat 3 damage no. It's not something that fits in with the current game. Instead I'd rather put something like anti-tank 4+ or devastating wounds on them, see marine PF/CF/TH handling.
3. Scrapjet needs another twin big shoota, it's literally got two on the model.
No argument here.
4. Lootas need fixing. I understand that hitting on a 4+ with full rerolls to hit is very strong for Orks, so increasing their BS might not be reasonable. You could leave them at 6+ base and just give them more shots. Either base 3 with rapid fire 1, leave them at base 2 but with rapid fire 2, or give them sustained hits 1. Or give them a Dakkawaaagh ability that gives them one of these bonuses during Waaagh turns if they turn out to be too much.
BS5+ with re-rolls wouldn't be that powerful though, especially since counter-play is easy. You only get 4+ when standing still and only when your opponent decides to move onto an objective that is within sight of them. In any case, I feel like they should have a different ability both because it's anti-synergetic with the only leader worth joining them with (big mek) and it doesn't really relate to looting in any way.
5. Dakkajet should have 3 supa shootas, with the option of a 4th. Again, it's on the model (at least on the app), it should have them by default.
Dakkajet has 2 twin supa shootas (so 4) and the option for another twin supa shoota for a total of 6 supa shootas, exactly what the model has. The model has no place to put another pair of supa-shootas.
6. Make Waaagh a two turn thing again. Let us keep the extra S and A on melee weapons on the second turn. We rely suuuuper hard on the Waaagh for meaningful damage and it's often our only way of getting by against hard targets.
Disagree. Having to play around that one turn of Waaagh! requires skill and has been a core part of orks for all editions except 8th. Having the Waaagh! active for two battlerounds was ok when you couldn't activate it on your opponent's turn, but now it would just mean a flat buff to all melee units for all relevant turns. If big targets are a problem, solve the actual problem by giving us units to handle them, not by handing out blanket buffs with unforseen side-effects. The only thing I would like to see is to allow us to call the Waaagh! on any command phase, not just the start of a battle round. Otherwise the Waaagh! feels lackluster when going second against an opponent with little long-range shooting.
That's a fine and fair assessment, and on reflection you make some very good points. As a much more knowledgeable and experienced git than I, I'll happily bow before the bigger boss
I made these suggestions somewhat on a whim without thinking of the wider impact on the game and purely on a datasheet by datasheet level. The Waaagh change I suggested was 100% tacked on at the end, but came from the thought process of Orks getting a 1 turn army rule whereas most others get multiple turns of strong boosts.
I will dig my heels in about Tankbustas though on two specific points; capped at 5 models, and no Tankbusta Bombs. They need something that lets them do something against heavy tanks, supposedly their chosen target, before getting splatted and I think my suggestion for Tankbusta Bombs would be a reasonably balanced and fluffy way of achieving that. My comments about "let them all take rokkits" was mostly about how much rokkit pistols are a waste of ink more than anything else.
This was only ever intended as a discussion point, so I'm glad you've weighed in on it.
Afrodactyl wrote: I made these suggestions somewhat on a whim without thinking of the wider impact on the game and purely on a datasheet by datasheet level. The Waaagh change I suggested was 100% tacked on at the end, but came from the thought process of Orks getting a 1 turn army rule whereas most others get multiple turns of strong boosts.
When you think about it, it's a super powerful rule though. It's more damage, a relevant and defensive buff and a speed increase all rolled into one and unconditionally applied to every single model you have on the table. Other army rules might be more powerful, but cannot be used by the entire army.
I will dig my heels in about Tankbustas though on two specific points; capped at 5 models, and no Tankbusta Bombs. They need something that lets them do something against heavy tanks, supposedly their chosen target, before getting splatted
The capped at 5 part is dumb a solely done due to the box having a mono build nob, no argument here. 10 of them (including 2x hammers and 2x pistols) lead by a KFF mek seems like something worth bringing on paper if priced correctly. "Does nothing against heavy tanks" I'd argue though. I recently got some actual play time out of them (2x5 in a trukk) because I was facing a weak player and brought weak units for that reason. They still do wound and hit any tank on 4s and for most targets even the rokkit pistols do, plus those re-roll wounds on top. Tank hammers also get to hit on 2+ against vehicles. They can already throw two bomb squigs at their target, adding your tankbusta bombs on top does not seem to be a healthy amount of mortal wounds for a unit, though they totally should have the grenade keyword.
Assuming you can have unit of 10 tankbustas with no other changes to their gear, against a T12/3+ vehicle they would cause: 6 damage from rokkits 0-2 damage from pistols ~8 damage from squigs ~2 damage from tank hammers (~ 3 during Waaagh!) ~0 damage from close combat weapons (~1 during Waaagh!) for a total of 16-18 damage, which can be increased to 18-20. Add a KFF mek who enables the grenade stratagem and re-rolls 1 to hit and it's enough to burry a knight. In comparison, a unit of devastators with grav cannons (the closest thing they have to rokkits) roughly manages 15-18 damage under perfect conditions (standing still, oath of moment, cherub).
TL;DR: The unit's rules and equipment are fine, point costs and max unit size is the problem.
I think its pretty clear the resin Tankbusta kit is on the way out. What it gets replaced with, I can't say, but its either going to be completely different or moved to Legends come codex time.
I will reserve judgment for when the dex drops. But in m opinion while we are a army in the fine park, i would like to see more support for anti-vehicle in melee.
I am also not a fan for 250pts for 20boyz with 5fnp slogging along considering other armies... if things like necrons stay the same, they can slap 440pts of warriors almost unkillable or lichguard, i want a bit of same treatment for our boyz's, i don't care if they do damage they should be durable.(How i know? I felt it first hand)
In theory the way to deal with necron blobs is take out the character (challenge strat in combat) and hope for a battle shock (deff dread/sag/wurrboy could help) so they can't use strats.
Crons are actually a pretty favorable matchup in my experience in 10th so far. They basically try to play like custodes with big bricks on objectives except they are even tougher but not even remotely as killy and also slow. The fast scoring things they have like scarabs/tomb blades can be removed with any of our trash units really and we can easily beat them to objectives to set up road blocks with trukks which lychguard can’t even reliably remove in a single combat phase. The C’tan is completely unkillable but is a prime target to try and tarpit with regular boyz. If your bringing a lot of squig boys than you probably won’t have a super fun time since doomsday arks obliterate them, but that’s also a very swingy damage unit so sometimes they might completely whiff.
PaddyMick wrote: In theory the way to deal with necron blobs is take out the character (challenge strat in combat) and hope for a battle shock (deff dread/sag/wurrboy could help) so they can't use strats.
Until you don't and they use their strat to revive the character.
Totally agree with you there flaming tadpole, it's tar pit match, attrition and move block. There's little point to kill stuff, and some of their guns play really well into some of our stuff.
Just pointing that for 250pts i would expect a semblance of that durability for foot slogging boyz. For 135pts i rather bring 10 on a truck, they last and do more.
We are clearly not a shooting army without the codex having dropped, so most our power isnt in our guns but melee. Yet they didnt even bother allowing the powerklaw to be strength 10 standard.
My main gripe really lies with the damned powerklaws not being strength 10 standard. They really should be. And killsaws only having 2 attacks hitting on 4, dealing 2 damage? The least they could do is give it damage 3.
But we are in a decent spot that is correct. We can play the missions well. And the Nobz and units using powerklaws are not bad at all with warbosses following them and all that, but we're a melee faction. We generally dont do lethal hits either. Powerklaws should really be strength 10 standard.
One of the most consistent problems in 10th in general is just that no melee weapons scaled up to fill their roles as tank busters in line with the increased toughness. There are ranged options, but no one really punches through armor very well.
Anyone having any luck with grot tanks/mega tanks? I'm thinking about a grot rebellion list and the models are great but I'm not sure if it's even remotely viable. The movement rule is interesting but do they have enough firepower to do anything besides be a minor annoyance?
That's different debate. That guy is thinking he can use reqular reanimation to bring hero back. Which would mean you need to kijl all heroes and troops at once or all come back quickly. No cp needed, no limit how often.
Necrons have stratagem to bring back just slain hero for 1cp. Once per battle for each hero.
Ressing hero via stratagem isx"t debatable. That's literally what stratagem says! Ressing via reanimation protocol is what that thread is about.
Stratagem certainly irritating. Can't do much but to force him to use cp to trigger resurection protocols but that's hard. Even with tson damage output they can have leeway to res hero(faced just that issue)
I m very sad that the whole speedfreak range is utterly useless except some “take one buggy fot this trik” in the whole army. That is the weak spot of the index. Not some tankbustas imho….
Beardedragon wrote: We are clearly not a shooting army without the codex having dropped, so most our power isnt in our guns but melee. Yet they didnt even bother allowing the powerklaw to be strength 10 standard.
My main gripe really lies with the damned powerklaws not being strength 10 standard. They really should be. And killsaws only having 2 attacks hitting on 4, dealing 2 damage? The least they could do is give it damage 3.
Beardedragon wrote: We are clearly not a shooting army without the codex having dropped, so most our power isnt in our guns but melee
If you want effective shooting you'll have to remember that grot tanks, grot Mega-Tanks, mek gunz, & Kanz are a thing. Particularly the grot tanks.
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ThePaintingOwl wrote: Anyone having any luck with grot tanks/mega tanks? I'm thinking about a grot rebellion list and the models are great but I'm not sure if it's even remotely viable. The movement rule is interesting but do they have enough firepower to do anything besides be a minor annoyance?
Yes I am.
Firepower wise there's still nothing I can't tear through with massed BS4 rokkit/KMB shots.
*Grot tanks got slightly better this edition - tougher, stable movement, +1 gun per 5 tanks.
*My grot Mega-Tanks took a hit though. They went from awesome down to merely OK since I can't change the 3 single guns out for more rokkits/KMB. And their KMB got a bit of a nerf as well.
Back these up with Mek Gunz, Kanz, grot squads, maybe some melee orks, a plane or two (I use Wazbombs) etc to taste.
And, if your not opposed to Legends, Big Gunz. Though these took a serious nerfing as they now sport the mighty BS6 - for reasons....
Flyers having to start in reserve late 9e/now? Not really a problem (for me). I almost always started my Wazbomb there anyways so I could place it where it was most needed.
The theme of MY grot army was (and is) maximum Grot/minimum ork.
It also was built to be 9e Crusade legal. To that end it contained an ork boss on Squigosaur (warlord as Red Gobbo is a named character & thus not allowed to lead his own army in crusade) + the Wazbomb (I needed a Mek to access the scrap point rules ' oh, guess what KW the Waz sports....)
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Quick question, does a Warboss in MA benefit from the “Krumpin Time” rule when he’s leading a unit of MANZ?
Yes because he's part of the unit.
Brilliant. Thank you. Still getting my head around how the character and unit thing interacts and works.
It's not super intuitive to be honest. You need to read each rule carefully, both on leaders and on units. Sometimes it just refers to specific models/this model (beastboss), sometimes to specific weapons(burnas, flash gitz), sometimes to the entire unit.
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Quick question, does a Warboss in MA benefit from the “Krumpin Time” rule when he’s leading a unit of MANZ?
Yes because he's part of the unit.
Brilliant. Thank you. Still getting my head around how the character and unit thing interacts and works.
It's not super intuitive to be honest. You need to read each rule carefully, both on leaders and on units. Sometimes it just refers to specific models/this model (beastboss), sometimes to specific weapons(burnas, flash gitz), sometimes to the entire unit.
So I’ve noticed. For example the MA Warboss benefits from a 4+++ during the waaagh but his unit doesn’t
I’ve gotten four games in with my Orks since 10th has dropped, almost worked through playing with every unit I own. I was looking at the planes, and man they seem bad? Especially the bombers? I think perhaps against the right opponent you could make the wazbom and the dakkajet work, but the bombers seem useless, assuming I am interpreting the aircraft rules correctly?
They start in reserves, come in on turn 2, and then since they aren’t flying over a unit, they can’t drop a bomb until turn 3? And only if you’ve lined it up correctly and the opponent doesn’t move their units out of the way?
Of course there is rapid ingress to get them in a little earlier, but…
I just want to check that I’m not misinterpreting the rules? I’d love it if the planes could work nicely…
Does anyone have any experience with them? Tips for using them, or are they paperweights this edition?
I’ve gotten four games in with my Orks since 10th has dropped, almost worked through playing with every unit I own. I was looking at the planes, and man they seem bad? Especially the bombers? I think perhaps against the right opponent you could make the wazbom and the dakkajet work, but the bombers seem useless, assuming I am interpreting the aircraft rules correctly?
They start in reserves, come in on turn 2, and then since they aren’t flying over a unit, they can’t drop a bomb until turn 3? And only if you’ve lined it up correctly and the opponent doesn’t move their units out of the way?
Of course there is rapid ingress to get them in a little earlier, but…
I just want to check that I’m not misinterpreting the rules? I’d love it if the planes could work nicely…
Does anyone have any experience with them? Tips for using them, or are they paperweights this edition?
You about summed up the problem with the majority of aircraft this edition. Anything that banks on having to fly over enemy units to do damage is pretty much fethed this edition because you have to pivot after movement rather than before where you pivoted first and then moved, meaning you're only going to get to bomb units on objectives most of the time. Likewise, because of the plane alpha strike issues of 9th, GW has made it so planes are forced to come on T2 and they don't even have the deep strike option anymore, you need to arrive from the table edges. For us, the bommers are complete non-starters for their price, while the Dakkajet and Wazbom Blastajet both just don't have enough damage output to justify it relative to the cost of much more efficient units like Mek Gunz and Flash Gitz.
It also doesn't help that neither our WAAAGH! or our current detachment ability is functionally useless for Aircraft, barring the 5+ invuln on the turn you call a WAAAGH!
flaming tadpole wrote: Ya GW is pretty much at a lost on how to balance aircraft. They're either completely busted op or useless with no in-between.
Agree, they should just drop the concept and go back to 5th edition's approach where all aircraft were moving like today's hover planes do. While it wasn't super immersive to have a dakkajet hover next to your shoota boyz all game, at least it worked. There is no point in simulating bombing runs on a relatively small battlefield in a game with just 5 turns.
I’ve gotten four games in with my Orks since 10th has dropped, almost worked through playing with every unit I own. I was looking at the planes, and man they seem bad? Especially the bombers? I think perhaps against the right opponent you could make the wazbom and the dakkajet work, but the bombers seem useless, assuming I am interpreting the aircraft rules correctly?
They start in reserves, come in on turn 2, and then since they aren’t flying over a unit, they can’t drop a bomb until turn 3? And only if you’ve lined it up correctly and the opponent doesn’t move their units out of the way?
Of course there is rapid ingress to get them in a little earlier, but…
I just want to check that I’m not misinterpreting the rules? I’d love it if the planes could work nicely…
Does anyone have any experience with them? Tips for using them, or are they paperweights this edition?
[/spoiler]You about summed up the problem with the majority of aircraft this edition. Anything that banks on having to fly over enemy units to do damage is pretty much fethed this edition because you have to pivot after movement rather than before where you pivoted first and then moved, meaning you're only going to get to bomb units on objectives most of the time. Likewise, because of the plane alpha strike issues of 9th, GW has made it so planes are forced to come on T2 and they don't even have the deep strike option anymore, you need to arrive from the table edges. For us, the bommers are complete non-starters for their price, while the Dakkajet and Wazbom Blastajet both just don't have enough damage output to justify it relative to the cost of much more efficient units like Mek Gunz and Flash Gitz.
It also doesn't help that neither our WAAAGH! or our current detachment ability is functionally useless for Aircraft, barring the 5+ invuln on the turn you call a WAAAGH!
Even if you manage to drop a bomb on a valuable unit each turn, neither the burnabommer nor the blitza bommer are worth bothering with. Neither the squigbuggy nor the kopta are stellar units, but the deal comparable amounts of MW, have decent guns and can hold objectives for almost the same points.
flaming tadpole wrote: Crons are actually a pretty favorable matchup in my experience in 10th so far. They basically try to play like custodes with big bricks on objectives except they are even tougher but not even remotely as killy and also slow. The fast scoring things they have like scarabs/tomb blades can be removed with any of our trash units really and we can easily beat them to objectives to set up road blocks with trukks which lychguard can’t even reliably remove in a single combat phase. The C’tan is completely unkillable but is a prime target to try and tarpit with regular boyz. If your bringing a lot of squig boys than you probably won’t have a super fun time since doomsday arks obliterate them, but that’s also a very swingy damage unit so sometimes they might completely whiff.
Also, hoo boy does my face light up when I see those 20-man bricks.
Why yes, my grot tank unit will quite happily take their 5d3+TWENTY SHOTS thank you!!!
flaming tadpole wrote: Ya GW is pretty much at a lost on how to balance aircraft. They're either completely busted op or useless with no in-between.
Agree, they should just drop the concept and go back to 5th edition's approach where all aircraft were moving like today's hover planes do. While it wasn't super immersive to have a dakkajet hover next to your shoota boyz all game, at least it worked. There is no point in simulating bombing runs on a relatively small battlefield in a game with just 5 turns.
Honestly I'd rather they go completely in the other direction. Make friendly aircraft arrive each turn, move an unlimited amount in a straight line from your DZ, and give them rules such that they can only target whats directly in front of them, so that kind of dictates where you have to place them on the board to make their various attacks.
The theoretical trade-off of "your opponent can't hide from it, it can't hide from them, and it's not as indestructible as a titanic unit so it doesn't have the same advantage as Towering" is perfectly fine on paper IMO.
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ThePaintingOwl wrote: Anyone having any luck with grot tanks/mega tanks? I'm thinking about a grot rebellion list and the models are great but I'm not sure if it's even remotely viable. The movement rule is interesting but do they have enough firepower to do anything besides be a minor annoyance?
Short answer yes, I love my grot tanks.
Long answer uhhh... I might make more grot tanks? The megatank is a fun unit to run with a Mek, it's got a solid mix of anti-infantry dakka and anti-tank dakka with it hitting on 3s and then (usually) wounding on 5+s rerollable. and grot tanks are phenomenal either as scorcha spam anti-infantry pieces or rokkit spam anti-elite pieces. Just either/or. I run scorchas because I have kanz for anti-elite duty.
The main problem with running grotvolushun with the current list tbh is the 60 grot limit. I do extensive proxying from the Gloomspite Gitz range to give myself more unit options, and what I've been mostly doing is running squig herds as beast snagga boyz and boingrot bounderz as stormboyz to have more bodies on the field. Also mangler squigs as Mozrog Skragbad, to have another good anti-tank piece.
Man, that reminds me I should get around to getting those cawdor mini-walkers and grotting them up to make my proxy squighog boyz.
the_scotsman wrote: Honestly I'd rather they go completely in the other direction. Make friendly aircraft arrive each turn, move an unlimited amount in a straight line from your DZ, and give them rules such that they can only target whats directly in front of them, so that kind of dictates where you have to place them on the board to make their various attacks.
The theoretical trade-off of "your opponent can't hide from it, it can't hide from them, and it's not as indestructible as a titanic unit so it doesn't have the same advantage as Towering" is perfectly fine on paper IMO.
Historically, an entire group of units playing a different game from everyone else has never worked well, and considering how many different types of fliers there are today, I'd favor going back to the one concept that did work over trying yet another thing that is essentially doomed to fail.
And honestly, having faced a couple of hovering fliers in the last few games, I'd totally wish orks could do that as well. It's just such simple and satisfying way to use those big models, and none of the attempts of bringing the terrible Death from the Skies rules to the regular games will ever come close.
flaming tadpole wrote: Ya GW is pretty much at a lost on how to balance aircraft. They're either completely busted op or useless with no in-between.
Agree, they should just drop the concept and go back to 5th edition's approach where all aircraft were moving like today's hover planes do. While it wasn't super immersive to have a dakkajet hover next to your shoota boyz all game, at least it worked. There is no point in simulating bombing runs on a relatively small battlefield in a game with just 5 turns.
I’ve gotten four games in with my Orks since 10th has dropped, almost worked through playing with every unit I own. I was looking at the planes, and man they seem bad? Especially the bombers? I think perhaps against the right opponent you could make the wazbom and the dakkajet work, but the bombers seem useless, assuming I am interpreting the aircraft rules correctly?
They start in reserves, come in on turn 2, and then since they aren’t flying over a unit, they can’t drop a bomb until turn 3? And only if you’ve lined it up correctly and the opponent doesn’t move their units out of the way?
Of course there is rapid ingress to get them in a little earlier, but…
I just want to check that I’m not misinterpreting the rules? I’d love it if the planes could work nicely…
Does anyone have any experience with them? Tips for using them, or are they paperweights this edition?
[/spoiler]You about summed up the problem with the majority of aircraft this edition. Anything that banks on having to fly over enemy units to do damage is pretty much fethed this edition because you have to pivot after movement rather than before where you pivoted first and then moved, meaning you're only going to get to bomb units on objectives most of the time. Likewise, because of the plane alpha strike issues of 9th, GW has made it so planes are forced to come on T2 and they don't even have the deep strike option anymore, you need to arrive from the table edges. For us, the bommers are complete non-starters for their price, while the Dakkajet and Wazbom Blastajet both just don't have enough damage output to justify it relative to the cost of much more efficient units like Mek Gunz and Flash Gitz.
It also doesn't help that neither our WAAAGH! or our current detachment ability is functionally useless for Aircraft, barring the 5+ invuln on the turn you call a WAAAGH!
Even if you manage to drop a bomb on a valuable unit each turn, neither the burnabommer nor the blitza bommer are worth bothering with. Neither the squigbuggy nor the kopta are stellar units, but the deal comparable amounts of MW, have decent guns and can hold objectives for almost the same points.
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, even if the flyer rules were the same as last edition, the burna bommer and blitza bommer are both terrible in terms of damage output and wouldn't be able to compete against anything else we have in our index rules, they're undoubtedly the worst duds in our army.
I also agree that GW should stop trying to make a flyers a mini-game on itself. I think we can abstract that they're not just floating in place for the fighter jets but being in the general vicinity of the air where the model is.
I like the idea of aircraft doing strafing runs across the table, leaving and coming back, but GW hasn't figured out how to make that happen in a way that makes them worth taking.
Aircrafts used to work that way when facing was important for vehicles, they could only fire the direction their guns pointed.
Guess what happened? Some planes had a turret. Guess what planes were bonkers strong and spammed to high heavens?
Quite frankly i liked how planes worked in 9th. They were more positional-restrictive in how they moved and mostly were just slightly harder to hit gun platforms that sometimes dropped bombs. Yeah theres the giant base thing you cant technically stand on but cmon you cannot possibly get rid of that problem and not introduce some super gamey way to cheese it offensively. Its the nature of tabletop gaming that you cant sit on another model for obvious reasons.
I wouldnt be surprised if thats why they have to start off table again, to avoid the T1 area denial. They could have dodged that by saying planes must start touching the back of your deployment too so they could never possibly be a "wall that isnt actually a wall" for anti charge. 9th was imo the closest weve been to planes being generally good but not disgustingly so. The only outliner examples were THAT plane specifically and nothing to do with the plane rules themselves, and the planes we viewed as crap were just designed like crap, not related to the rules.
LunarSol wrote: I like the idea of aircraft doing strafing runs across the table, leaving and coming back, but GW hasn't figured out how to make that happen in a way that makes them worth taking.
They worked that way in 4th edition and it was fine.
LunarSol wrote: I like the idea of aircraft doing strafing runs across the table, leaving and coming back, but GW hasn't figured out how to make that happen in a way that makes them worth taking.
Sure they have. When flyers (and drop pods) 1st came along from FW they had nice simple rules.
They entered on the opponents mv phase, from a board edge , facing some direction, and you traced a straight line across the board. This was the flight path. The plane could shoot from any point along the path. BUT, before the dice were rolled, the enemy got a chance to shoot at the plane (some restrictions & penalties applied). If it was shot down or damaged, then no strafing/bombing. If it survived, then fire away. The plane then flew off board & might return next round.
It was simple & worked & sadly devolved to what we have today. :(
LunarSol wrote: I like the idea of aircraft doing strafing runs across the table, leaving and coming back, but GW hasn't figured out how to make that happen in a way that makes them worth taking.
So kinda like a stratagem? Draw a line indicated by the flyer model. X effect happens to the units it passes over? Be it bombing runs, strafing runs or hell could even make rules for supply or mine drops.
LunarSol wrote: I like the idea of aircraft doing strafing runs across the table, leaving and coming back, but GW hasn't figured out how to make that happen in a way that makes them worth taking.
They worked that way in 4th edition and it was fine.
I actually had to dig out my apocalypse book and look those up.
Actually, if you translated those to today's core rules the only major difference would be that there were no movement restrictions outside of minimum movement range and that you could bomb immediately after coming in from reserves. And of course, you get the whole "Hard to Hit" nonsense - removing that was one of the best changes of 10th.
I'm not sure bombing from reserves is a good idea for balance reasons, and but the movement would absolutely be.
LunarSol wrote: I like the idea of aircraft doing strafing runs across the table, leaving and coming back, but GW hasn't figured out how to make that happen in a way that makes them worth taking.
Sure they have. When flyers (and drop pods) 1st came along from FW they had nice simple rules. They entered on the opponents mv phase, from a board edge , facing some direction, and you traced a straight line across the board. This was the flight path. The plane could shoot from any point along the path. BUT, before the dice were rolled, the enemy got a chance to shoot at the plane (some restrictions & penalties applied). If it was shot down or damaged, then no strafing/bombing. If it survived, then fire away. The plane then flew off board & might return next round. It was simple & worked & sadly devolved to what we have today. :(
What's the point of even bringing a model when it never touches the table? Those are great rules for scenarios where you don't want to have an actual squadron of bombers for mission rules, but terrible rules for a model.
Jidmah wrote: I actually had to dig out my apocalypse book and look those up.
Even earlier, going back to the old FW books. Apocalypse had the 36" minimum move, the original aircraft rules had the come in during your opponent's turn and make a pass straight across the table, getting to stop and shoot at any point along the line if they survived AA fire (which only hit on 6s unless you had AA guns).
And of course, you get the whole "Hard to Hit" nonsense - removing that was one of the best changes of 10th.
Worst changes. GW never should have allowed non-AA guns to hit on anything but 6s, and even that is probably too charitable. Aircraft should be virtually impossible to shoot down unless you bring proper weapons.
Vineheart01 wrote: Aircrafts used to work that way when facing was important for vehicles, they could only fire the direction their guns pointed.
Guess what happened? Some planes had a turret. Guess what planes were bonkers strong and spammed to high heavens?
Quite frankly i liked how planes worked in 9th. They were more positional-restrictive in how they moved and mostly were just slightly harder to hit gun platforms that sometimes dropped bombs. Yeah theres the giant base thing you cant technically stand on but cmon you cannot possibly get rid of that problem and not introduce some super gamey way to cheese it offensively. Its the nature of tabletop gaming that you cant sit on another model for obvious reasons.
I wouldnt be surprised if thats why they have to start off table again, to avoid the T1 area denial. They could have dodged that by saying planes must start touching the back of your deployment too so they could never possibly be a "wall that isnt actually a wall" for anti charge.
9th was imo the closest weve been to planes being generally good but not disgustingly so. The only outliner examples were THAT plane specifically and nothing to do with the plane rules themselves, and the planes we viewed as crap were just designed like crap, not related to the rules.
I agree. On the end of 9th it was ok. Max 3 planes was a good restriction. 9 jets dakka/waznoom/bomma list was absolutely ridiculous.
Bombimg was pretty useless mechanic. But as a weapon platforms the planes worked pretty well. The price was the issue (some of them too cheap).
Jidmah wrote: I actually had to dig out my apocalypse book and look those up.
Even earlier, going back to the old FW books. Apocalypse had the 36" minimum move, the original aircraft rules had the come in during your opponent's turn and make a pass straight across the table, getting to stop and shoot at any point along the line if they survived AA fire (which only hit on 6s unless you had AA guns).
And of course, you get the whole "Hard to Hit" nonsense - removing that was one of the best changes of 10th.
Worst changes. GW never should have allowed non-AA guns to hit on anything but 6s, and even that is probably too charitable. Aircraft should be virtually impossible to shoot down unless you bring proper weapons.
We've had all that and it didn't work. Like at all. GW even deleted the marine anti-air tank without even bothering to legend it and no one cared, that's how well AA works at the scale of 40k.
Such rules were fine for apocalypse when you played on insanely large tables and gigantic armies, but at the regular 1000-2000 point scale the only rules for fliers that ever worked well across all fliers and factions were when they were treated no different from a wave serpent.
LunarSol wrote: I like the idea of aircraft doing strafing runs across the table, leaving and coming back, but GW hasn't figured out how to make that happen in a way that makes them worth taking.
They worked that way in 4th edition and it was fine.
I actually had to dig out my apocalypse book and look those up.
Actually, if you translated those to today's core rules the only major difference would be that there were no movement restrictions outside of minimum movement range and that you could bomb immediately after coming in from reserves. And of course, you get the whole "Hard to Hit" nonsense - removing that was one of the best changes of 10th.
I'm not sure bombing from reserves is a good idea for balance reasons, and but the movement would absolutely be.
LunarSol wrote: I like the idea of aircraft doing strafing runs across the table, leaving and coming back, but GW hasn't figured out how to make that happen in a way that makes them worth taking.
Sure they have. When flyers (and drop pods) 1st came along from FW they had nice simple rules.
They entered on the opponents mv phase, from a board edge , facing some direction, and you traced a straight line across the board. This was the flight path. The plane could shoot from any point along the path. BUT, before the dice were rolled, the enemy got a chance to shoot at the plane (some restrictions & penalties applied). If it was shot down or damaged, then no strafing/bombing. If it survived, then fire away. The plane then flew off board & might return next round.
It was simple & worked & sadly devolved to what we have today. :(
What's the point of even bringing a model when it never touches the table? Those are great rules for scenarios where you don't want to have an actual squadron of bombers for mission rules, but terrible rules for a model.
The model still had to be placed on the table. Because ranges were measured to & from it. (From its base iirc). Also because, like now, you couldn't place one model on top of another. So positioning mattered.
So, drop pods landed at the end of their movement & were active, if stationary, units & their cargo had to deploy.
As to the point of why even bring a model? Its a minis game, not a board game. The whole point of the exercise, good rules or bad rules, is to play with all our cool toys....
Jidmah wrote: It's the only source of flier rules for 4th.
And, as I mentioned the FW books before Apocalypse.
Such rules were fine for apocalypse when you played on insanely large tables, but at the regular 1000-2000 point scale the only rules for fliers that ever worked well across all fliers and factions were when they were treated no different from a wave serpent.
Those rules, like the 10th edition rules, sucked. Maybe they were fine from some e-sport balance point of view but they were terrible if you cared about fluff. Aircraft should act like aircraft, not tanks on a taller base.
ccs wrote: The model still had to be placed on the table. Because ranges were measured to & from it. (From its base iirc). Also because, like now, you couldn't place one model on top of another. So positioning mattered.
[snip]
As to the point of why even bring a model? Its a minis game, not a board game. The whole point of the exercise, good rules or bad rules, is to play with all our cool toys....
Ah, then maybe I didn't understand you right. I'm fine with the plane being on the table (like in the middle of a bombing/strafing run) and then be a different place doing another run next turn, simulating flying over the battlefield, leaving and returning each turn.
My point was that just think that any rules that could be virtually replaced by a pair of dice is a dealbreaker for me. There was a legendary mission in the Thrakka books where a Speedwaaagh! would randomly cross the battlefield and murder everything in it's path. Fun idea, but just represented by two dice. Not having the models there was extremely immersion breaking.
When I organized the the same mission for a campaign I had actual Speedwaaagh! models so instead of dice there was a buggy with three warbikers literally driving on the board and shooting/charging stuff following a certain ruleset. All 8 player's feedback was that it was way more fun than the dice solution, despite being more clunky and that it had to be managed on top of 9th edition's bloat.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: It's the only source of flier rules for 4th.
And, as I mentioned the FW books before Apocalypse.
Such rules were fine for apocalypse when you played on insanely large tables, but at the regular 1000-2000 point scale the only rules for fliers that ever worked well across all fliers and factions were when they were treated no different from a wave serpent.
Those rules, like the 10th edition rules, sucked. Maybe they were fine from some e-sport balance point of view but they were terrible if you cared about fluff. Aircraft should act like aircraft, not tanks on a taller base.
Unconstructive criticism and Irrational hate of the current edition is not welcome here. Warhammer40k today is not a simulation, but a game, and therefore should prioritize fun and functionality over replicating a subjective illusion realism. Please take your opinions to the general forum where you will find many like-minded people.
Jidmah wrote: Unconstructive criticism and Irrational hate of the current edition is not welcome here. Warhammer40k today is not a simulation, but a game, and therefore should prioritize fun and functionality over replicating a subjective illusion realism. Please take your opinions to the general forum where you will find many like-minded people.
Nor is unconstructive and irrational defense of the current edition. You don't get to decide what discussion happens here or what opinions can be stated and if you don't like it YOU can leave.
Jidmah wrote: Unconstructive criticism and Irrational hate of the current edition is not welcome here. Warhammer40k today is not a simulation, but a game, and therefore should prioritize fun and functionality over replicating a subjective illusion realism. Please take your opinions to the general forum where you will find many like-minded people.
Nor is unconstructive and irrational defense of the current edition. You don't get to decide what discussion happens here or what opinions can be stated and if you don't like it YOU can leave.
Yes, I do. Check the first post. If you are not willing to follow the rules, get out.
Jidmah wrote: Yes, I do. Check the first post. If you are not willing to follow the rules, get out.
You are not a moderator and your opinions are just that: your personal opinions.
And preferring lore-accurate rules over your favorite way of handling a unit is not "irrational hate". It's entirely rational and well-explained dislike of a mechanic. You are free to disagree with me but you don't get to dictate which opinions are permitted on a public discussion forum.
This is a 10th edition tactics thread, it is for discussing 10th edition tactics. End of story. If you dont want to post about 10th edition tactics and instead want to complain about the edition then take it to general discussion or do not post.
Well that was a fun exchange… anyway make aircraft hover again, -1 to hit, and only able to be hit by flyers or range weapons with 48in or greater range. They should probably have towering keyword too since terrain wouldn’t really help them or their opponents. Regarding aircraft ork tactics there isn’t any great use for them currently maybe wazbom is mildly usable. I also don’t like the 2 unit limit I rather it be 3 like most other units but I can live with 2 limit. I mean ork tactics are fairly stagnant right now until changes to the top 3-4 codexs where orks are in a good place to be decent afterwards and then we get a codex in the spring.
gungo wrote: Well that was a fun exchange… anyway make aircraft hover again, -1 to hit, and only able to be hit by flyers or range weapons with 48in or greater range. They should probably have towering keyword too since terrain wouldn’t really help them or their opponents.
Would we want them to be assaultable still by units with the FLY keyword or only specific Aircraft like Heldrakes/Harpies? I think GW has thankfully toned it down a bit handing FLY out like candy to everything but not sure if they should be threatened by units with jump packs.
Fly isn’t that powerful anymore either so sure let those flyboys assault them.. they aren’t usually your strongest assault unit anyway plus I’m cool with -1 to hit also vs melee.
LunarSol wrote: I like the idea of aircraft doing strafing runs across the table, leaving and coming back, but GW hasn't figured out how to make that happen in a way that makes them worth taking.
Sure they have. When flyers (and drop pods) 1st came along from FW they had nice simple rules.
They entered on the opponents mv phase, from a board edge , facing some direction, and you traced a straight line across the board. This was the flight path. The plane could shoot from any point along the path. BUT, before the dice were rolled, the enemy got a chance to shoot at the plane (some restrictions & penalties applied). If it was shot down or damaged, then no strafing/bombing. If it survived, then fire away. The plane then flew off board & might return next round.
It was simple & worked & sadly devolved to what we have today. :(
Yeah, one of the neat aspects of iterative design is the way fixes to problems can create problems that might need to be fixed by going back to old ideas. The problems now are a result of responding to years of problems, most of which honestly come down to table space for the flight base. I can definitely see a back to basics approach working out. Personally, I think its one of those problems where someone on the dev team needs to sit down and list every design goal for the models from scratch.
Hey, woot? ... did i miss a scrap? You guys never invite for a good krumping.. anway, just wanted to add to anyone out there that after breaking my lose streak i came around at ideal number for meganobz as being 3. Bring both claw and saw with boss in mega armor, killed flyrant last game and payed themselves, boss never needed to attack but +2 with crits made a number during waggh.
Not sure anyone using, but beast boss on foot is in my opinion, our best character hands down. Averages 6MW on charge against anything hight T and it's cheap. Also if the opponent is not high T, his body guards will make short work and are also cheap. Will link the current list that's wining me the games so far..
Spoiler:
++ Army Roster (Xenos - Orks) [1,995pts] ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size: 2. Strike Force (2000 Point limit)
Detachment: Waaagh! Tribe
Show Legends
+ Character +
Beastboss [95pts]: Beast Snagga klaw, Beastchoppa, Kunnin’ But Brutal, Shoota
Thanks for all the replies about flyers! I suppose unfortunately they’ll have to sit on the shelf this edition, or at least until our codex and any potential fixes for them.
In other news, I have a game in a couple weeks against a friend who is running Marines. I don’t know the list yet, but I know his play style is to blast the opponent off the table first, and move on to objectives later, and we’re playing at 1500. He also typically skews heavier in to meta focused lists even though we don’t play hyper competitive formats or anything.
With that I have built a MSU focused list, but my problem is what to do with the last few points…
Spoiler:
DEM BEAKIES WOT FINK DEYRE HARD? WAAAGH (1430 Points)
Nobz (115 Points)
• 1x Ammo Runt
• 1x Boss Nob
• 1x Power klaw
1x Slugga
• 4x Nob
• 4x Power klaw
4x Slugga
Squighog Boyz (110 Points)
• 3x Squighog Boy
• 3x Saddlegit weapons
3x Squighog jaws and saddlegits
3x Stikka
My current thoughts are either Lootas for the backfield with Kunnin but Brutal on the beastboss, or a mek gun for the backfield with Follow me Ladz on the warboss. I suppose I could also drop a unit to slot something else in, but what do all you brainboyz think?
Lootloader wrote: Thanks for all the replies about flyers! I suppose unfortunately they’ll have to sit on the shelf this edition, or at least until our codex and any potential fixes for them.
In other news, I have a game in a couple weeks against a friend who is running Marines. I don’t know the list yet, but I know his play style is to blast the opponent off the table first, and move on to objectives later, and we’re playing at 1500. He also typically skews heavier in to meta focused lists even though we don’t play hyper competitive formats or anything.
With that I have built a MSU focused list, but my problem is what to do with the last few points…
Spoiler:
DEM BEAKIES WOT FINK DEYRE HARD? WAAAGH (1430 Points)
Nobz (115 Points)
• 1x Ammo Runt
• 1x Boss Nob
• 1x Power klaw
1x Slugga
• 4x Nob
• 4x Power klaw
4x Slugga
Squighog Boyz (110 Points)
• 3x Squighog Boy
• 3x Saddlegit weapons
3x Squighog jaws and saddlegits
3x Stikka
My current thoughts are either Lootas for the backfield with Kunnin but Brutal on the beastboss, or a mek gun for the backfield with Follow me Ladz on the warboss. I suppose I could also drop a unit to slot something else in, but what do all you brainboyz think?
If he likes to blast you, then you fight in the same ballpark as me, bring bodies and trucks is my best advice. I would cut the wagon and bring more truks and bodies. But my list is all melee, you might want to focus on other things like grot tanks or mek guns
Also lootas aren't worth it, if you want a gun platform bring a mek gun with a big mek with shock gun
If he likes to blast you, then you fight in the same ballpark as me, bring bodies and trucks is my best advice. I would cut the wagon and bring more truks and bodies. But my list is all melee, you might want to focus on other things like grot tanks or mek guns
Also lootas aren't worth it, if you want a gun platform bring a mek gun with a big mek with shock gun
Unfortunately I only own the three trukks, and I just finished painting the battlewagon up beautifully, so that’s the ride for the Flash Gitz, since I can park it front and center, and I’m fairly certain that even with Oath of moment he won’t have the firepower to drop it in the first turn, because of what I expect to be his conservative deployment.
I’m not expecting great things from Lootas, that’s for certain, but if they kill two marines all game, that’s practically their points back there. Combined with a tall ruin for plunging fire I feel like they could kill two marines?
If I bring a mek gun, and have to find the points for the SAG big mek, what would you drop to make room for that?
If he likes to blast you, then you fight in the same ballpark as me, bring bodies and trucks is my best advice. I would cut the wagon and bring more truks and bodies. But my list is all melee, you might want to focus on other things like grot tanks or mek guns
Also lootas aren't worth it, if you want a gun platform bring a mek gun with a big mek with shock gun
Unfortunately I only own the three trukks, and I just finished painting the battlewagon up beautifully, so that’s the ride for the Flash Gitz, since I can park it front and center, and I’m fairly certain that even with Oath of moment he won’t have the firepower to drop it in the first turn, because of what I expect to be his conservative deployment.
I’m not expecting great things from Lootas, that’s for certain, but if they kill two marines all game, that’s practically their points back there. Combined with a tall ruin for plunging fire I feel like they could kill two marines?
If I bring a mek gun, and have to find the points for the SAG big mek, what would you drop to make room for that?
Mate, i seen a Stormsurge being brought down by marines plasma guns(that's a t11 22W S2 with Sv4++), combo of lethals+sustained with oath of moment hehe. Don't expect the wagon to last if he knows what he's doing, and that's not the worst combo i heard from marines.
On the lootas... maybe? if you point at objective point for re-rerolls and stand still on top, yeah maybe i can see.
Also unless unless your opponent has issues i would use proxies for the trucks. But i understand where you are coming from. You want try the new shinny wagon, nothing wrong with that.
Also you don't need to bring the SAG, but the extra re-rolls to 1 are really nice.
I'm playing around with a 1k list with squighogs, grot tanks, mek guns and kommandoz (mostly due to the kommando box and assorted conversion fodder I have at hand). Right now I'm listing a beastboss on a squigosaur, a nob on a smasha squig and 6x hogboyz. I've got about 20 points left over (and could free up more if i drop one or both mek guns).
Is there a better way to distribute the hog points, such as 3x3 hogz with no nob, or skip the beastboss in favor of more hogs/nobs?
Coh Magnussen wrote: I'm playing around with a 1k list with squighogs, grot tanks, mek guns and kommandoz (mostly due to the kommando box and assorted conversion fodder I have at hand). Right now I'm listing a beastboss on a squigosaur, a nob on a smasha squig and 6x hogboyz. I've got about 20 points left over (and could free up more if i drop one or both mek guns).
Is there a better way to distribute the hog points, such as 3x3 hogz with no nob, or skip the beastboss in favor of more hogs/nobs?
I think the Squigboss is pretty useful and worth keeping in insuring you get rerolls on your charges for your Beastsnagga units given how he's likely to either be leading the charge or be behind your squighog boyz. He's also much tankier than the Squighogz and will force your opponent to over invest in delivering enough firepower to taking him out. With the 20 points I would suggest giving him the Killchoppa enhancement for the mortal wounds or if you have 25, to give the 2" extra movement enhancement to the Nob on Smasha squig leading the squighog boyz.
i think assaulting a Plane is generally pretty dumb as thematically nothing would be that suicidal to try and chase a hypersonic vessel at extreme altitudes.
That is, except Stormboyz. They'd try lol
Vineheart01 wrote: i think assaulting a Plane is generally pretty dumb as thematically nothing would be that suicidal to try and chase a hypersonic vessel at extreme altitudes.
That is, except Stormboyz. They'd try lol
They won't just try.
In the Space Marine game, there is one scene where a horde of stormboyz takes down an entire fleet of valkyries by jumping on them and chopping away at the engines and the cockpit while you as the protagonist have to shoot them off the planes close to you.
Vineheart01 wrote: i think assaulting a Plane is generally pretty dumb as thematically nothing would be that suicidal to try and chase a hypersonic vessel at extreme altitudes.
That is, except Stormboyz. They'd try lol
They won't just try.
In the Space Marine game, there is one scene where a horde of stormboyz takes down an entire fleet of valkyries by jumping on them and chopping away at the engines and the cockpit while you as the protagonist have to shoot them off the planes close to you.
Spoiler:
I loved that bit. Dead Orky.
The Tyranid fliers would also be suicidal enough to try to tackle jets.
Coh Magnussen wrote:I'm playing around with a 1k list with squighogs, grot tanks, mek guns and kommandoz (mostly due to the kommando box and assorted conversion fodder I have at hand). Right now I'm listing a beastboss on a squigosaur, a nob on a smasha squig and 6x hogboyz. I've got about 20 points left over (and could free up more if i drop one or both mek guns).
Is there a better way to distribute the hog points, such as 3x3 hogz with no nob, or skip the beastboss in favor of more hogs/nobs?
In a 1k point list I'd suggest that 6 hogs with a nob are probably overkill into anything except knights. Between the +1 to hit, sustained hits, +1 to wound on the charge, and anti vehicle they're going to trash most vehicles in a turn or two.
In my 2k list I'm taking 3x3 hogs, each with a nob, to maximise board control and maneuverability. Worst case scenario I'll just charge two units in.
I'd keep the Squigosaur, it's a really solid unit and is pretty oppressive at smaller points ranges.
Has anyone else tried meganobz led by a Big Mek with Mega Armor? That ability to revive one mega nob every turn is amazing. Definitely most powerful unit on my table now. Five Meganobz + Big Mek=amazing
Though just for fun I had them go one on one against a Lemon Russ. The tank still won but barely.
Dekskull wrote: Has anyone else tried meganobz led by a Big Mek with Mega Armor? That ability to revive one mega nob every turn is amazing. Definitely most powerful unit on my table now. Five Meganobz + Big Mek=amazing
Though just for fun I had them go one on one against a Lemon Russ. The tank still won but barely.
Big Mek is nice, but you don't really benefit from its shooting buff, and you lose out on the bonuses afforded by a Warboss or Ghaz.
The reviving one model a turn is pretty nice, but in practice they're still pretty easy to get wounds on so those revived models are only saving you from 1-2 shots per turn. In all honesty for durability we're probably better off getting stuck in as quick as we can and hitting as hard as we can to limit the amount of return fire, as opposed to trying to just tank the damage.
Coh Magnussen wrote:I'm playing around with a 1k list with squighogs...
In a 1k point list I'd suggest that 6 hogs with a nob are probably overkill into anything except knights. Between the +1 to hit, sustained hits, +1 to wound on the charge, and anti vehicle they're going to trash most vehicles in a turn or two.
In my 2k list I'm taking 3x3 hogs, each with a nob, to maximise board control and maneuverability. Worst case scenario I'll just charge two units in.
I'd keep the Squigosaur, it's a really solid unit and is pretty oppressive at smaller points ranges.
What's your full list currently?
Da List:
Spoiler:
980 points
Bossy:
Beastboss on a Squigosaur - Headwhoppa's Killchoppa
Nob on a Smasha Squig - Kunnin' but Brutal
Boss Snikrot
I've got 9 little dinosaurs to convert, was planning to use one for the boss too but upon further consideration he probably needs a bigger one so I have enough for 3x3 if that's better than 1x6+nob.
Dekskull wrote: Has anyone else tried meganobz led by a Big Mek with Mega Armor? That ability to revive one mega nob every turn is amazing. Definitely most powerful unit on my table now. Five Meganobz + Big Mek=amazing
Though just for fun I had them go one on one against a Lemon Russ. The tank still won but barely.
I’ve tried them twice, both times at 3 meganobz with PKs and Kustom Shootas, the big mek had the KFF and KMB. They just footsloged it up the table both times after their transport got popped. First game with them they wiped a full squad of terminators and the captain in one go, second time they brawled with a unit of the squat terminators and champ, also winning that fight.
Overall I like them a lot, especially for the WAAAGH round where you get devastating wounds. The Big Mek never got to revive any models in either game, but the 4++ and the grot oiler to repair wounds was actually the clutch part. In both games they were either full models with on wounded, or fully dead, but that was at 3 instead of 5, so I’d imagine at 5 you’d get to use the revive ability.
I've got 9 little dinosaurs to convert, was planning to use one for the boss too but upon further consideration he probably needs a bigger one so I have enough for 3x3 if that's better than 1x6+nob.
I run 3x3 because I want to run 3 Smasha Squigs, and with a Squigosaur, BW and a Squiggoth in my list board space is at a premium. 6+Nob can be very unweildy, depending on terrain, but it is very efficient for smacking things.
Personally my main gripe with your list is board control. If you dropped 3 Squighogs, you could squeeze in two small units of Stormboys to help nab objectives. You've already got a lot of fast moving punch from the Squigs, Kommandos and Grot Tanks, so you should now focus on being able to grab/contest the objectives once you've chased the opponent off of them. This way you don't have to have your big hitters stuck babysitting objectives and you can let them run amock.
Take my advice with a pinch of salt though, ultimately just take what works for you.
In y'alls experience are 3 squighogs and the buffed up nob (w/ 'eadwhoppas enhancement to make him even killier) enough to do the stuff on their own or do you absolutely need 6 hogs?
I ask because the Cawdor Ridge Walker kit comes with 4 models - so enough for 3 hogs and 1 nob once i turn them into grot lancers.
Thanks, afrodactyl. I do like the idea of dropping some stormboyz in there, I only have one built but they're on my "to-do" list, and i've got some lovely stormgrotz stl files i'm going to get printed.
the_scotsman wrote: In y'alls experience are 3 squighogs and the buffed up nob (w/ 'eadwhoppas enhancement to make him even killier) enough to do the stuff on their own or do you absolutely need 6 hogs?
I ask because the Cawdor Ridge Walker kit comes with 4 models - so enough for 3 hogs and 1 nob once i turn them into grot lancers.
I have experience with exactly this, 3 hogs and 1 npb.
3 Hogs on their own is, in my humble opinion, pretty bad. But they get buffed up a lot by the Nob who is also pretty good himself (and can get the kill choppa).
So no id say you dont need 6. I usually run exactly 3 with a nob and it works well.
Fantastic, TY. I've only ever used a handful of the beast snagga unit range in proxy form, and didnt consider them until looking at this Ridgewalker conversion project.
3 Hogs and a Nob is a pretty solid all rounder unit that can deal with large(ish) blocks of chaff and threaten vehicles.
Hogs alone are pretty lacklustre, the additional attacks from the Nob and the +1 to hit really make them great.
6 Hogs are pretty alright if you don't want to use the Nob, just through weight of attacks. 6 Hogs and a Nob is usually overkill into all but the heaviest targets, and can come with the aforementioned "traffic jam" issues. Same as running the all-buggy Speedwaaagh list from 9th.
3+1 is the sweet spot in my opinion. Give the Nob the Killchoppa if you're not using it elsewhere for even better results.
Vineheart01 wrote: i think assaulting a Plane is generally pretty dumb as thematically nothing would be that suicidal to try and chase a hypersonic vessel at extreme altitudes.
That is, except Stormboyz. They'd try lol
They won't just try.
In the Space Marine game, there is one scene where a horde of stormboyz takes down an entire fleet of valkyries by jumping on them and chopping away at the engines and the cockpit while you as the protagonist have to shoot them off the planes close to you.
Spoiler:
Oh im fully aware. I remember that scene and going WHY CANT I DO THAT IN THE TABLETOP!?! Stormboyz are the one that makes sense to let me do that!
Board Room Brawl 2023 - Scott de Wynter-Wilkie - 3rd / MA Big Mek with MANz in Trukk? and Deffkila Wartrike with 6 Warbikers + 3 x Hogs with Nobz. Once 6+HWKC, the rest 3+1. Flashgitz Bomb from reserve?
Generaly very fast list. Except grots everything moves 12+
Spoiler:
brawl 2023 (2000 points)
Orks
Strike Force (2000 points)
Waaagh! Tribe
CHARACTER
Big Mek in Mega Armour (100 points)
• 1x Grot Oiler
1x Kustom Force Field
1x Kustom mega-blasta
1x Power klaw
Oh, the single BS5+ melta shot lol. Yeah...I guess... the thing I hate about the Deffkilla honestly is the fact that it gives a +1 to hit buff in melee...so...it buffs 5 ork boyz and a nob instead of the unit's main focus of shooting, and the main useful shooting attack comign out of the deffkilla the burna jet isnt Assault so if you use the unit as like a blitz thing, you dont get to shoot with that.
Theyve got good OC though, I guess I was discounting the fact that you really do need units to get up and tangle on objectives in 10e.
I've just been using loads of kommandos for that task. Only OC1 but there is 10 of them, theyve got very solid defenses for Orks and their cheap cost, and theyve got a wide variety of weird gimmick weapons that makes them feel quite scary. Also - no overwatch! Screw all your 10 man all flamer units.
The warbikers+deffkilla really surprises me though. Why those guys?
I would turn it around and ask: I dont know why anyone would run more than 2? My go to is usually 2, but why have 3? If you have 2x grots, one on each objective you are close to guaranteed to get that extra CP. The rest of the objectives are bodied by other units like boys or snagga boys anyway so i dont see a usage for 3x grots
Honestly across all the factions I've tried in 10e I've yet to lose with any where I've made the core focus of what I'm doing "a whole bunch of bodies that wanna go rumble on top of the objectives." I take stuff with plenty of killing power - but killing power paired with hefty durability and the desire to be up front and standing on those points.
Absolutely minimizing gak that needs to hang in the back, away from stuff, camping in your DZ and popping long range shots.
The warbikers+deffkilla really surprises me though. Why those guys?
I would turn it around and ask: I dont know why anyone would run more than 2? My go to is usually 2, but why have 3? If you have 2x grots, one on each objective you are close to guaranteed to get that extra CP. The rest of the objectives are bodied by other units like boys or snagga boys anyway so i dont see a usage for 3x grots
I mean Im me so I usually run 60 lmao, with Zodgrod and the Red Gobbo.
But speaking objectively/tactically the value of screening bodies is huge regardless of their ability to hold backfield points and give you 3cp on your turn. Zone out deep strikers, bodyblock major assault elements, gum up opponents movement, the value of nuisance units is massive and people seem to skimp on them very heavily.
the_scotsman wrote: Honestly across all the factions I've tried in 10e I've yet to lose with any where I've made the core focus of what I'm doing "a whole bunch of bodies that wanna go rumble on top of the objectives." I take stuff with plenty of killing power - but killing power paired with hefty durability and the desire to be up front and standing on those points.
Absolutely minimizing gak that needs to hang in the back, away from stuff, camping in your DZ and popping long range shots.
The warbikers+deffkilla really surprises me though. Why those guys?
I would turn it around and ask: I dont know why anyone would run more than 2? My go to is usually 2, but why have 3? If you have 2x grots, one on each objective you are close to guaranteed to get that extra CP. The rest of the objectives are bodied by other units like boys or snagga boys anyway so i dont see a usage for 3x grots
I mean Im me so I usually run 60 lmao, with Zodgrod and the Red Gobbo.
But speaking objectively/tactically the value of screening bodies is huge regardless of their ability to hold backfield points and give you 3cp on your turn. Zone out deep strikers, bodyblock major assault elements, gum up opponents movement, the value of nuisance units is massive and people seem to skimp on them very heavily.
uuhh.. you can only get 1CP extra per turn regardless of rules. So if you have 3 grots doing 3x 4+, you still only get 1CP. And if you then discard a mission afterwards at the end of your turn, you dont get any CP at all, because you already got an aditional CP from grots.
Grots cant give you 3CP per turn if that is what you meant of course
tneva82 wrote: There's alas some arqument about that as it's start of command phase and core rules say "outside cp players gain _at the start of command phase_".
Gw really ought to put out this to rest and clarify...as is some play 1 way, others play other way.
The rule itself limits you to one CP. Where it occurs doesn't really matter outside of how it might interact with another CP regen rule. It's actually one of the better worded rules out of GW I've seen in a while.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Note you're not getting a roll per unit. You get one roll per objective. If you have two units on one objective, its 1 roll. If you somehow have one unit on two objectives you get 2 rolls. Regardless of how many rolls you get, you get +1 CP if one or more of them are 4+.
Yep, you can only have 1 cp extra by battleround, not turn, regardless of source. So max CP you can get by battleround is 3. 1 for each command phase, and one of outside source.
the_scotsman wrote: Honestly across all the factions I've tried in 10e I've yet to lose with any where I've made the core focus of what I'm doing "a whole bunch of bodies that wanna go rumble on top of the objectives." I take stuff with plenty of killing power - but killing power paired with hefty durability and the desire to be up front and standing on those points.
Absolutely minimizing gak that needs to hang in the back, away from stuff, camping in your DZ and popping long range shots.
The warbikers+deffkilla really surprises me though. Why those guys?
I would turn it around and ask: I dont know why anyone would run more than 2? My go to is usually 2, but why have 3? If you have 2x grots, one on each objective you are close to guaranteed to get that extra CP. The rest of the objectives are bodied by other units like boys or snagga boys anyway so i dont see a usage for 3x grots
I mean Im me so I usually run 60 lmao, with Zodgrod and the Red Gobbo.
But speaking objectively/tactically the value of screening bodies is huge regardless of their ability to hold backfield points and give you 3cp on your turn. Zone out deep strikers, bodyblock major assault elements, gum up opponents movement, the value of nuisance units is massive and people seem to skimp on them very heavily.
uuhh.. you can only get 1CP extra per turn regardless of rules. So if you have 3 grots doing 3x 4+, you still only get 1CP. And if you then discard a mission afterwards at the end of your turn, you dont get any CP at all, because you already got an aditional CP from grots.
Grots cant give you 3CP per turn if that is what you meant of course
Uhhh...no, I don't know what I meant, I think I wrote "turn" meant "round" and was thinking "2cp on YOUR TURN".
But it all came out scrambledy. Core point: having 3x grot units is like a 150pt investment total for 33 bodies with OC60 and the ability to basically guarantee you an additional CP. That's very nice for me. Thumbs up. Like that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: There's alas some arqument about that as it's start of command phase and core rules say "outside cp players gain _at the start of command phase_".
Gw really ought to put out this to rest and clarify...as is some play 1 way, others play other way.
To be clear I do not play the other way, i play the one way.
Oh, the single BS5+ melta shot lol. Yeah...I guess... the thing I hate about the Deffkilla honestly is the fact that it gives a +1 to hit buff in melee...so...it buffs 5 ork boyz and a nob instead of the unit's main focus of shooting, and the main useful shooting attack comign out of the deffkilla the burna jet isnt Assault so if you use the unit as like a blitz thing, you dont get to shoot with that.
tneva82 wrote: There's alas some arqument about that as it's start of command phase and core rules say "outside cp players gain _at the start of command phase_".
Gw really ought to put out this to rest and clarify...as is some play 1 way, others play other way.
The rule itself limits you to one CP. Where it occurs doesn't really matter outside of how it might interact with another CP regen rule. It's actually one of the better worded rules out of GW I've seen in a while.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Note you're not getting a roll per unit. You get one roll per objective. If you have two units on one objective, its 1 roll. If you somehow have one unit on two objectives you get 2 rolls. Regardless of how many rolls you get, you get +1 CP if one or more of them are 4+.
It limits to 1 outside the cp at start of phase. So arqument is cp IN(ie not outside) start of command phase isn't limited.
Question is thus how much weight can be put to cp and not cp's. Gw is fast on plural's.
Note as rai i agreb but raw there's 2 school of thought. Gw should have clarifified ages ago. 10th faq irritatingly latn.
Edit: well not case here it seems(
Still point stanas. Gw should kill off arqument once and for all. I run into that all the time at least they errataed knights to work which helps arqument.
In that GW can't write any rule to save their lives is a given. The way they write is always open to interpretation. But hey, don't let it ruin your game. Warhammer is also a social game, so talking with your opponent about these "rulings" helps, In my local we avoid fighting in vertical because the ruling is a tad unclear on B to B. Thing's like one shot weapons only shoot once even in transports, etc... I rather avoid leaning on GW. To this day i still don't know if ghaz count's as 1 or 2 models for the wagon, obviously you assume one but who know's.
Oh, the single BS5+ melta shot lol. Yeah...I guess... the thing I hate about the Deffkilla honestly is the fact that it gives a +1 to hit buff in melee...so...it buffs 5 ork boyz and a nob instead of the unit's main focus of shooting, and the main useful shooting attack comign out of the deffkilla the burna jet isnt Assault so if you use the unit as like a blitz thing, you dont get to shoot with that.
Yes, that ´ s it
I seriously never use it unless I can't use the flamer. At two shots, it was a nice option, at just 1 it's just too unreliable to ever base any decision around it hitting something.
i dont get the point of the Wartrike this go around
Even in 9th it was kinda meh. It did a lot, but it did it all mediocrely.
In 10th, its even more meh. It does absolutely nothing that stands out as useful or strong.
Its one of the few units in the 10th index i had 0 intent to use.
Vineheart01 wrote: i dont get the point of the Wartrike this go around
Even in 9th it was kinda meh. It did a lot, but it did it all mediocrely.
In 10th, its even more meh. It does absolutely nothing that stands out as useful or strong.
Its one of the few units in the 10th index i had 0 intent to use.
The only real advantage is the automatic 6" advance which makes the warbikers extremely fast. Besides that, it's pretty much the equivalent of adding an attack bike to a unit of marine bikers.
locarno24 wrote: It's also a character so can be given 'follow me ladz' for an extra 2" move.
True, but I can't think of a single instance when 2" more movement would have made the difference for my warbikers. I'd rather put this enhancement on a slow unit that relies on close combat to deal damage, like nobz, MANz or beastsnaggas.
Super Cybork is a decent option for the Wartrike. 9 wounds with a 4+++ is a nice roadblock for 105 points, given how quickly it can get into your opponent.
With how giganto the base is for the wartrike, I feel like it would have made more sense for it to get the Lone Operative rule if it was within 3" of a Speed Freek unit. And yeah, it sucks that he has a largely irrelevant unit buff, would be better if he had an aura or a command phase ability to buff a speed freek unit so they could actually do something for our other buggy units alongside warbikers, because besides footslogging Meks, our buggies are SoL.
Chaps - getting back into Orks from 9th and finally got hold of a Gaz model.
What's the best delivery method for him now? Walk up the board with some Meganobz?
Also, I'm right in thinking you tank wounds on Morkari on the 2+ inv every time? Seems pretty strong?
KirvesUK wrote: Chaps - getting back into Orks from 9th and finally got hold of a Gaz model.
What's the best delivery method for him now? Walk up the board with some Meganobz?
Also, I'm right in thinking you tank wounds on Morkari on the 2+ inv every time? Seems pretty strong?
The best way to deliver him seems to be to reserve him and then use Rapid Ingress to get him into combat.
Makari is only allowed to tank wounds when all the MANz are dead and instantly dies to any kind of mortal wounds. So it's not bad, but also not particularly strong.
I feel like reserve is kind of a bad idea with ghaz. If you get first turn your in a bit of a pickle because you can’t rapid ingress in until bottom of 2 which is 90% of the time the turn your waaaghing so you lose the main reason for taking ghaz, which is makari lethals. Assuming your playing on a standard terrain setup there shouldn’t be much trouble keeping him and his squad relatively safe for a turn unless your playing eldar with a knight, but even then a lot of players and tourneys are changing ruins to be completely los blocking.
flaming tadpole wrote: I feel like reserve is kind of a bad idea with ghaz. If you get first turn your in a bit of a pickle because you can’t rapid ingress in until bottom of 2 which is 90% of the time the turn your waaaghing so you lose the main reason for taking ghaz, which is makari lethals. Assuming your playing on a standard terrain setup there shouldn’t be much trouble keeping him and his squad relatively safe for a turn unless your playing eldar with a knight, but even then a lot of players and tourneys are changing ruins to be completely los blocking.
Yeah, the Waaagh! clashes with how you want to run Thrakka, which kind of is the reason why he is so difficult to get good value out of.
As for hiding his unit... I wouldn't say my tables are easy to shoot across, but keeping him safe during T2 has proven extremely difficult for me. Best case it's just all the MANz that died, meaning he loses +1 to wound and devastating wounds, making him a rather mediocre combatant. I've also had issues with people using rapid ingress themselves to put deep strikers in his path.
Delivering him by battlewagon has somewhat worked in my battlewagon bash list (3 wagons with Thrakka, burnas, flash gitz), but that is not a list which can take on highly competitive opponents.
MANz+BigMek chilling in the Naut to be a decent-ish krumpin-pinata, weirdboys+boys being glorified stormboys...
Just wondering what the consensus on MANz is? I see a lot of people running PK/Saw, but i wonder how often i will really use the saws, so might as well use the guns for some minor shooting chip damage...?
MANz+BigMek chilling in the Naut to be a decent-ish krumpin-pinata, weirdboys+boys being glorified stormboys...
Just wondering what the consensus on MANz is? I see a lot of people running PK/Saw, but i wonder how often i will really use the saws, so might as well use the guns for some minor shooting chip damage...?
They are, one way missile, either use Thraka with something like 5 or 3 to give him extra wounds, or boss in mega armour with something like 3, Big mek would be good versus shooting armies placing him as a centre piece to eat ranged fire from other things.
Yes use claw/saw, the reason is simple, their worst versions of nobz when picking the claw(less bodies, less attacks), but they have the flexibility to threaten anything T10. So you use them in a way where, if it is Ghaz, walk his way up the board directly to the unit you can't deal with with normal claws. If taken in 3 and with boss in mega armour, pack them in the truck and does the same thing. Your mileage will vary with them, because the things they want to engage with, will, most of the time, kill them, so be ready to use either interrupt or fight on death just for them.
I am having success that way. It makes for a second line threat for my opponent in case it throw's something I can't deal with (I generally keep them behind main line in wait). While they die easily, they more then pay for their cost since the things they go after, cost more then they, making them efficient investment.
None the less you should have other options in hand in case they fail, and beast boss on foot comes to mind for that. The boyz can bog down vehicles and the boss pretty much deals with them. Mine did 12MW last game.
So, i don't see them as a centre piece unit like flash gitz, but one of your tools to deal with maybe a character/vehicle/monster normal claws or beast boss won't cut it.
Their expandable at 3 + boss in mega armour, costing around the same as mozrog. They pay in durability by being able to cause more damage. Not sure which one is better since with how swing mozrog (bite hit's on 3 and the bite is his main DPS, his chopa hit's on 2 and rarely connects on the save due to low AP) I might try him again but i am still miffed by the way he fails. Meanwhile my beast boss on squig ate a swarmlord in one go with 14 MW.
Yeah, I've also switched to PK/KS. The kustom shoota has next to no chance to ever do anything, the flexibility to switch to the optimal weapon against your target outweighs the odd mortal wound every other game by far.
Someone did the math a couple of pages back, feel free to read up on when to use which weapon.
The Kustom Shoota just has too little shooting to hit consistently with our low BS and the weapon itself is on a body that basically wants to be always advancing if possible, so you'll never have a chance to shoot it before getting stuck in most circumstances. GW really dropped the ball just making it a copy of the combi weapons that Imperials have.
It's really a missed opportunity because having the previous profile of Kombi-Skorchas and Kombi-Rokkits would be a lot better now that all the weapons options are free.
I only ever run dual saws. I just use the damage spreadsheet from that one comp player on YouTube but according to that pks are only better than dual saws against T3/T4 (and T5 for the waaagh turn). Personally I don’t really think it’s worth the damage loss against the things that we struggle to kill to just be a little better against things anything in our army can kill but ymmv.
Yeah, I absolutely think the only reason people don't run dual saws is just *the idea* of "only 2 attacks", rather than the objective reality of what a unit of meganobz actually does against various targets.
A fire prism has only 2 attacks. How unreliable! (/s)
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, I absolutely think the only reason people don't run dual saws is just *the idea* of "only 2 attacks", rather than the objective reality of what a unit of meganobz actually does against various targets.
A fire prism has only 2 attacks. How unreliable! (/s)
The objective reality is that, despite having better or similar averages, a unit of 5 MANz with dual saws will struggle to fight through a unit trying to tarpit/moveblock them and come out worse against various defense mechanisms and debuffs like -1 to hit, -1 damage or auto-passing saves.
Another objective reality is that a fire prism is free to pick whatever target it can see (or not), while MANz cannot. You will find yourself fighting sub-optimal targets eventually.
Picking raw power is just as much a valid decision as is picking flexibility. Especially considering that the PK is better against some of the most common profiles in the game, and that it is perfectly possible to face an army where the extra power never matters.
Essentially dual KS outside of the Waagh! don't provide any advantage over the PK unless the target is T9-11. During the Waaagh! the Killsaw becomes better against T12 as well, but the math is discounting devastating wounds.
A PK generates .7666 MW during the Waaagh! turn, dual killsaws generate less than half of that against a target the wound on 3s and go up to roughly .4753 if you re-roll everything that is not a devastating wound for some reason.
Unless I'm missing something, even with the Waaagh! active and Thrakka being there to buff the mob, the difference between 5 MANz with dual killsaws and 5 MANz with PK/KS amounts to a single unsaved wound against hard targets.
With ghaz manz are wounding everything not T13/14 on 2’s which means there’s no reason not to full reroll to fish for mortals which should equate out to 50% more mw than pk’s unless my math is way off.
I ageee there isn’t a massive difference in damage in either direction, but it’s enough of a difference into big things that I think it’s worth it. Other than maybe a 20 man WE jackal squad getting 4++ from dp and 5+++ from blood tithe I can’t really think of any real tarpit threat that will survive 2 fight phases vs ghaz and manz, but I also haven’t seen anyone in my games or streams I watch try and tarpit that unit probably because they don’t realize they aren’t as killy as past editions.
I have not run MANZ with anyone but Ghaz, and i always ran Powerklaw/Killsaw, since killsaws would wound basically anything on 2s anyway, I didnt really need the rerolls to wounds that twin linked provides.
Furthermore the pure flexibility of thus being able to use the powerklaw, which is better imo, against most targets, especially with +1 to wound, just made me use powerklaws a lot more than kill saws.
So at least if you run them with ghaz, you should definitely get powerklaw/Killsaw loadout, not double killsaws and not powerklaw/Pistol.
Beardedragon wrote: I have not run MANZ with anyone but Ghaz, and i always ran Powerklaw/Killsaw, since killsaws would wound basically anything on 2s anyway, I didnt really need the rerolls to wounds that twin linked provides.
Furthermore the pure flexibility of thus being able to use the powerklaw, which is better imo, against most targets, especially with +1 to wound, just made me use powerklaws a lot more than kill saws.
So at least if you run them with ghaz, you should definitely get powerklaw/Killsaw loadout, not double killsaws and not powerklaw/Pistol.
Without Ghaz though, i have no idea.
Actually, what Jidmah linked was my math about exactly this, powerklaw/killsaw combo, which really isn't as versatile as you think it is. I ran the math for Ghaz and without Ghaz.
If you're going to run killsaws, run twin-linked. It's always going to be better than one killsaw, and is better against some targets than PK. There are very few instances in which a single Killsaw is better than the PK, to the point where you might as well either take the shoota or the twin-linked instead for the same price. Even if you take PK/saw, you need to read that math because it will show you even against high T, there are many cases where the PK is still better than the single killsaw. You should only use the one killsaw in cases where the math favors it over the PK.
Hey everyone, I was wondering if someone better at the math hammer side of life could do me a solid and let me know what the expected outcome is for Nobz with Power Klaws vs Nobz with Big Choppas, both with a warboss attached to the unit.
Obviously the durability is exactly the same, and my gut says the Big Choppas are better against T3 infantry (not that we struggle killing that anyway). I’m really wondering though whether the big choppas are more efficient on a waaagh round against T4 infantry, since they’ll still be wounding on 2s, but have a worse AP? Also, what about against T11+? Both the BC and the PK will be wounding on 5s, but the BC will be hitting on 2s, (but worse AP).
I’m sure it’s matchup dependent, but I feel like perhaps the Big Choppas have some niche that might be unexpected? Or at least I hope they will since I have a squad modeled that way…
Lootloader wrote: Hey everyone, I was wondering if someone better at the math hammer side of life could do me a solid and let me know what the expected outcome is for Nobz with Power Klaws vs Nobz with Big Choppas, both with a warboss attached to the unit.
Obviously the durability is exactly the same, and my gut says the Big Choppas are better against T3 infantry (not that we struggle killing that anyway). I’m really wondering though whether the big choppas are more efficient on a waaagh round against T4 infantry, since they’ll still be wounding on 2s, but have a worse AP? Also, what about against T11+? Both the BC and the PK will be wounding on 5s, but the BC will be hitting on 2s, (but worse AP).
I’m sure it’s matchup dependent, but I feel like perhaps the Big Choppas have some niche that might be unexpected? Or at least I hope they will since I have a squad modeled that way…
If I recall correctly, Power Klawz will almost always be better than Big Choppas, especially with a Warboss attached, because the extra AP and strength means you are better against pretty much all targets, including T3 infantry, since both have the same number of attacks baseline and the +1 to hit from the Warboss is much more meaningful for Power Klaws. That AP-2 can make a big difference because even basic infantry like Eldar Guardians with their 4+ save can save 1/3 of the time from AP-1 big choppas, but only saves on 6's against Power Klaws while also getting past 5+ saves entirely. This gets even more pronounced against T11+ units, because they almost always invariably have a 3+ save or better, where the -1 from big choppas is even more of a liability for you. Unfortunately, with both effectively being the same price and interchangeable in the unit it sort of makes the Big Choppa almost pointless to bring unless you're WYSIWYG'ing in a tourney.
Lootloader wrote: Hey everyone, I was wondering if someone better at the math hammer side of life could do me a solid and let me know what the expected outcome is for Nobz with Power Klaws vs Nobz with Big Choppas, both with a warboss attached to the unit.
Obviously the durability is exactly the same, and my gut says the Big Choppas are better against T3 infantry (not that we struggle killing that anyway). I’m really wondering though whether the big choppas are more efficient on a waaagh round against T4 infantry, since they’ll still be wounding on 2s, but have a worse AP? Also, what about against T11+? Both the BC and the PK will be wounding on 5s, but the BC will be hitting on 2s, (but worse AP).
I’m sure it’s matchup dependent, but I feel like perhaps the Big Choppas have some niche that might be unexpected? Or at least I hope they will since I have a squad modeled that way…
Against t4 3+ save 2w, warboss, waagh 1 big choppa nob kills 1.38. Pk 1.48
4+ even. 5+ big choppa better.
So...in short big choppa is slightly worse all the time. Though differenc is 3+ save 10 nobs killing 1 marine more(while killing entire unit in one go without extra casualty). So vs reqular infantry profiles difference isn't going to be noticable. Comes more into play when you are facing stuff you aren't going to 1 shot with ease.
Beardedragon wrote: I have not run MANZ with anyone but Ghaz, and i always ran Powerklaw/Killsaw, since killsaws would wound basically anything on 2s anyway, I didnt really need the rerolls to wounds that twin linked provides.
Furthermore the pure flexibility of thus being able to use the powerklaw, which is better imo, against most targets, especially with +1 to wound, just made me use powerklaws a lot more than kill saws.
So at least if you run them with ghaz, you should definitely get powerklaw/Killsaw loadout, not double killsaws and not powerklaw/Pistol.
Without Ghaz though, i have no idea.
Actually, what Jidmah linked was my math about exactly this, powerklaw/killsaw combo, which really isn't as versatile as you think it is. I ran the math for Ghaz and without Ghaz.
If you're going to run killsaws, run twin-linked. It's always going to be better than one killsaw, and is better against some targets than PK. There are very few instances in which a single Killsaw is better than the PK, to the point where you might as well either take the shoota or the twin-linked instead for the same price. Even if you take PK/saw, you need to read that math because it will show you even against high T, there are many cases where the PK is still better than the single killsaw. You should only use the one killsaw in cases where the math favors it over the PK.
I'm pretty much in agreement when it relates to Ghazghkull, what I don't really get is why I'd ever want to run Ghazghkull generally. He can't be given the speed boost enhancement, he precludes me from bringing a transport, among our strongest categories of unit for keeping my important units on the table, he's expensive and results in huge overkill versus many targets while not preventing the unit from being bogged down by chaff squads or cleared out by anti-elite weaponry. Just in general among the 3 leader options for manz I'd pick Ghazghkull last.
I think there might be a potential place to look at Ghazkhull+2 Manz if his transport capacity special rule for battlewagons actually worked as it appears to be intended to work (i.e., allowing him+2 attached Manz to embark using the full TC of 22) but the fact that Makari exists as a model in the unit makes that pointless.
Technically, Makari also has the Ghazkhull Thrakka Keyword, meaning his unit would actually require 36 slots to transport if the number would be per model.
That said, unlike for all other transport options, it doesn't actually say Ghazgkhull Thrakka models. So it's perfectly fair to assume that it's actually models for the whole datasheet and not just for the big guy. Especially considering that any other interpretation would make it impossible to transport Thrakka as long as Makari is alive.
Lootloader wrote: Hey everyone, I was wondering if someone better at the math hammer side of life could do me a solid and let me know what the expected outcome is for Nobz with Power Klaws vs Nobz with Big Choppas, both with a warboss attached to the unit.
Obviously the durability is exactly the same, and my gut says the Big Choppas are better against T3 infantry (not that we struggle killing that anyway). I’m really wondering though whether the big choppas are more efficient on a waaagh round against T4 infantry, since they’ll still be wounding on 2s, but have a worse AP? Also, what about against T11+? Both the BC and the PK will be wounding on 5s, but the BC will be hitting on 2s, (but worse AP).
I’m sure it’s matchup dependent, but I feel like perhaps the Big Choppas have some niche that might be unexpected? Or at least I hope they will since I have a squad modeled that way…
I don't have the math in front of me, but in every single case, power klaw power klaw power klaw.
yeah bigchoppas are worse in every way to pk. The extra hit chance is massively outweighed by the ap and strength difference.
Only reason ive been using bigchoppas is i already have plenty with bigchoppas and dont feel like making a new squad with pk
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah bigchoppas are worse in every way to pk. The extra hit chance is massively outweighed by the ap and strength difference.
Only reason ive been using bigchoppas is i already have plenty with bigchoppas and dont feel like making a new squad with pk
Same. I only use 2BC/3PK for aesthetics and remove the BC first as casualties. So far it neither had a positive nor negative impact on the unit's performance.
Went to a small local tourney with a 6 trukk list, with beastboss on squig (kill choppa), mozzie, 10 nobz w warboss (follow me ladz), 10 flash gitz w. badrukk, a lone weirdboy (supa-cybork) for actions, 2x5 stormboys, 4x10 beast snagga boys and 2x10 grots.
I lost 1 battle and won 2, netting me the second place.
First battle against genestealers, i lost with 7 points (he became the victor of the tournament). I have tried genestealers once before in 10th, and like twice in 9th, so i was really confused about what to do and what happened.
Battle 2 against salemanders which i won. Why he played salemanders i dont know. He cant shoot far, and didnt use any vehicles, really just a.. terrible list honestly. Just moved up my trukks without any care in the world, lost 1 trukk and 10 boys turn 1.
Turn 2 i had bodied 70% of his army.
Battle 3 was against Eldar and a wraith knight. Surprisingly i won that battle, which i did not expect. Because they are over tuned to hell and i have not fought Eldar in 10th. Anyway, the small ruins were tall enough to just barely keep my trukks out of line of sight, so i had decent cover for my trukks. I did not get turn 1 but i was essentially 100% in cover. and the Wraithknight couldnt shoot any trukks turn 1.
Waaagh'ed round 2 i believe and failed a catastrophic 7 inch charge with my Nobz unit against his wraith guardians. is that what they are called? The devastating wound cannon wraith constructs thingies with 3 wounds each.
Anyway my Nobz ended up just soaking up a bunch of firepower, as well as my beastboss and mozrog. Beastboss on squig even tanked an entire shooting turn of a wraith knight even without Ard as Nails and didnt die. That was pretty damn nice to look at.
Anyway the incarn kept flying around causing mayhem and had the game gone on longer than round 5 i would be bodied. But i held on and won.
AP-1 on beastboss on squig and mozzie is really sad though. Even though they are anti vehicle units, the enemy will save on 3-s and 4s. So their damage can be really swingy which is a bit sad.
I really dont see why they shouldnt retain AP-2 on their main weapons
What are everyone's thoughts on Burna Boyz? Would it be fun to load them into trukks and/or battlewagons and go burning up the board? Or simply too expensive to be worthwhile?
They’d be great if they were the same price as last edition. Right now I think they’re one of the few units in our army that isn’t good or trash, just kinda meh. Hard to justify spending 4.5 ppm more than a boy for something with worse OC but better at clearing chaff which is the one thing we don’t really need any help with.
The Red Hobbit wrote: What are everyone's thoughts on Burna Boyz? Would it be fun to load them into trukks and/or battlewagons and go burning up the board? Or simply too expensive to be worthwhile?
Some people rate them, I personally don't when you look at the other options we have
They're good in that they're pretty cheap and you can take a unit of five to park on an objective (if you didn't want to use Grots for that role), and they kill chaff and chaff+1 units pretty well.
The issue is that we already clear chaff really well, and we have better units for snagging objectives like stormboys, Grots, bikers, etc.
You could spend about 500 points on 3x Burna Boys and Trukks and likely never have to worry about light infantry, but so much of our units are already built to wade through light infantry anyway that it would likely be a waste.
Do they have a use? Yes, clearing chaff and burning things off of objectives.
Are they good at what they do? Yes.
Are they cost effective? Yes, 10 in a trukk is pretty cheap for what they do, and with the Trukk they're fast too.
Are they the best at what they do? Not necessarily, we have lots of units that clear light infantry exceptionally well, but they do have a niche of being a good overwatch unit.
Overall I'd say they're a high B tier/low A tier unit. They do what they do well, but there's other units that do it just as well (if not better) that also have the means to pull double duty in other roles.
Ultimately try them out. If you like how they perform and they fill a gap in your list, then keep them.
I will admit though, sticking loads of them in a Battlewagon or a Gargantuan Squiggoth and marching them up the board is good fun. Big bucket of dice make Ork brain go brrrr.
So after that discussion between saw/claw vs twin saw i gave it a spin in a game. The meganobz got stuck into neurothrope i think that's the name plus his bodyguard. Well.. not impressed, going against t8 bodies, sure their ok, but i am pretty sure claws would have been better. this is what i mean when saw/claw is superior, not many things are t10 and for those that aren't claws will come on top just for clearing bodies. It gives another tool even if it's not the best. In the future i will not bring the twin, rerolls would be cool if your engaging into wounding on 5 or 4. That's where i see them being useful. Currently in my current meta max T i saw was 11. Anyway that's my 2 cents for the argument.
Forceride wrote: So after that discussion between saw/claw vs twin saw i gave it a spin in a game. The meganobz got stuck into neurothrope i think that's the name plus his bodyguard. Well.. not impressed, going against t8 bodies, sure their ok, but i am pretty sure claws would have been better. this is what i mean when saw/claw is superior, not many things are t10 and for those that aren't claws will come on top just for clearing bodies. It gives another tool even if it's not the best. In the future i will not bring the twin, rerolls would be cool if your engaging into wounding on 5 or 4. That's where i see them being useful. Currently in my current meta max T i saw was 11. Anyway that's my 2 cents for the argument.
TBH I think i was talking past people in that discussion.
I didnt realize people were talking specifically about the MANz joined by Ghazghkull, which is, honestly, a thing I've never actually tried doing in 10e (fielding Ghaz).
in that instance the math is super clear, saw/klaw is best, tbh you might even consider klaw+gun but the guns are just so impossibly gakky its probably worth the small edge case instance where sawz are better.
the +1 to wound bumps the saw's usefulness down hugely. I've only run manz with megaboss and megamek, and so I've preferred the sawz and just using a trukk to deliver them to the sort of targets i need them to fight (big tough stuff, as in, stuff saws are good at)
See, I keep telling ork players that Grot Tanks are a worthwhile investment....
To be honest, the main reason why I haven't gotten any is because I fully expect them to be squatted within the next 5 years...
Especially since playing the speed freeks game, I would love to add a grot megatank to my army, but I'm not too keen on investing a lot of money (FW) or effort (3D printing) for a decorative block of resin.
Im going to do a unit of 4 from some admech destroyer sprues a mate had going spare. Personally I don't want to invest any more than that - unless it's for a grot themed army - but if I did there's some basic ones on etsy at 4 for $50.
Great source! I copy the lists there to make it more accesible because more of them are interesting
Salt Lake Open - 9th - Fast list. 3 squads of warbikers, 1 squad of Nob bikers!, 3 squads of Hogboyz + wartrike and both squigridebosse + usuall suspects like nobz with the warboss, flashgitz with kaptin a grots
Spoiler:
Reworking (2000 Points)
Orks
Waaagh! Tribe
Strike Force (2000 Points)
flaming tadpole wrote:They’d be great if they were the same price as last edition. Right now I think they’re one of the few units in our army that isn’t good or trash, just kinda meh. Hard to justify spending 4.5 ppm more than a boy for something with worse OC but better at clearing chaff which is the one thing we don’t really need any help with.
Afrodactyl wrote:
The Red Hobbit wrote: What are everyone's thoughts on Burna Boyz? Would it be fun to load them into trukks and/or battlewagons and go burning up the board? Or simply too expensive to be worthwhile?
Some people rate them, I personally don't when you look at the other options we have
They're good in that they're pretty cheap and you can take a unit of five to park on an objective (if you didn't want to use Grots for that role), and they kill chaff and chaff+1 units pretty well.
The issue is that we already clear chaff really well, and we have better units for snagging objectives like stormboys, Grots, bikers, etc.
You could spend about 500 points on 3x Burna Boys and Trukks and likely never have to worry about light infantry, but so much of our units are already built to wade through light infantry anyway that it would likely be a waste.
Do they have a use? Yes, clearing chaff and burning things off of objectives.
Are they good at what they do? Yes.
Are they cost effective? Yes, 10 in a trukk is pretty cheap for what they do, and with the Trukk they're fast too.
Are they the best at what they do? Not necessarily, we have lots of units that clear light infantry exceptionally well, but they do have a niche of being a good overwatch unit.
Overall I'd say they're a high B tier/low A tier unit. They do what they do well, but there's other units that do it just as well (if not better) that also have the means to pull double duty in other roles.
Ultimately try them out. If you like how they perform and they fill a gap in your list, then keep them.
I will admit though, sticking loads of them in a Battlewagon or a Gargantuan Squiggoth and marching them up the board is good fun. Big bucket of dice make Ork brain go brrrr.
Makes a lot of sense, sounds like they are useful but better options certainly exist. I've been considering ways to maximize our great number of firing deck slots in our transports and given how Lootas took a hit to BS it mostly leaves Flash Gitz or Burnas. 10 in a Trukk could make for a very potent and durable Overwatch, but then I'd have to find bits for 5 more Burnas
Speaking of Firing Decks, has anyone run a Squiggoth so far? I've always wanted to run one but it's unfortunate that FW is going the way of the dodo.
TBH I think i was talking past people in that discussion.
I didnt realize people were talking specifically about the MANz joined by Ghazghkull, which is, honestly, a thing I've never actually tried doing in 10e (fielding Ghaz).
in that instance the math is super clear, saw/klaw is best, tbh you might even consider klaw+gun but the guns are just so impossibly gakky its probably worth the small edge case instance where sawz are better.
the +1 to wound bumps the saw's usefulness down hugely. I've only run manz with megaboss and megamek, and so I've preferred the sawz and just using a trukk to deliver them to the sort of targets i need them to fight (big tough stuff, as in, stuff saws are good at)
Yeah, i agree, and makes it clear and sense when running Ghaz, that claws come on top.
But like you mentioned, i also run MANZ with megaboss and i tend to find, maybe my impression, that the extra claw attacks are better specially when using 5 crits. The volume of attacks also leans into cleaning bodies of 1 or 2w more efficiently. But the better question would be. When is 1A better then wound re-rerols. It's strange but that's the question that comes to mind, T7 and T8 is fairly common, T5 and lower is also common place. Some rare cases reach the T10 where saws are no brainer.
hell i have a 3D printer and a Geargutz subscription, i dont even wanna print grot tanks or anything FW out of fear of them being squatted.
Its one thing to squat super old models like the old Buggies, its another to squat generally still great looking models because theyre not "core codex units"
Theres already a ton of FW stuff that i was shocked got the cut, fully expecting more to vanish within a year or less.
Speaking of Firing Decks, has anyone run a Squiggoth so far? I've always wanted to run one but it's unfortunate that FW is going the way of the dodo.
I've ran a Garg Squig and I'm currently running the regular Squig, which is ferrying about my Flash Gitz. In my opinion the Squiggoth's decently fast, durable and actually hits really hard in melee.
The Garg Squig dials that up to eleven; it's crazy durable when you need it to be and kills whatever it touches in melee. The Garg does suffer from the same problems that Stompas and Baneblades do; it's so big it's a nightmare to transport and there's rarely a good route for it to move up the board because terrain exists.
I bought them mostly as centre pieces for my Squig-focused army, so I'm going out of my way to get at least one of them in each of my lists to justify the cost. So consider that a bias from me
Why is the garg squig so hard to transport for you guys? I just have a cheap plastic box that is covered in corrugated foam on all sides. The howdah is magnetized so I can take it of and otherwise the gargantuan squiggoth is pretty much an indestructible brick of resin.
I have some smaller models which are much more difficult to transport, like any of the planes, the nauts or Mortarion.
Its mostly a pain to move around for me because im an idiot and for some reason didnt put the plank of wood i used to base him so he didnt tip far enouhg back to protect the tail spikes. They keep breaking off.
PaddyMick wrote: Can the Firing Deck rule be used during overwatch?
Alas, i do not believe it can, as the firing deck rule specifies "in the Shooting Phase".
-Coh
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Red Hobbit wrote: 10 in a Trukk could make for a very potent and durable Overwatch, but then I'd have to find bits for 5 more Burnas
How many typically die when the trukk goes boom? I mean, technically you don't need all the models as long as they're still in the trukk
-coh
You can't use fire deck in overwatch. the rules are clear, firing deck has shooting phase killing that.
I can answer the truck pop since i run a lot of them. On average your going to see 7%? losses since your looking for MW on rolls of 1 for each. On average you can get 1 or 2, on bad spikes it can reach 5 with real bad luck or none if you roll well.Considering most stuff i run with has FNP it cut's the rolls a bit, last game 4 were to die but saves cut it to 2. If you do emergency, is another game though, your looking up to rolls of 3 and that ups it a fair bit. Avoid it since the 6" is rarely worth a while.
Jidmah wrote: Why is the garg squig so hard to transport for you guys? I just have a cheap plastic box that is covered in corrugated foam on all sides. The howdah is magnetized so I can take it of and otherwise the gargantuan squiggoth is pretty much an indestructible brick of resin.
I have some smaller models which are much more difficult to transport, like any of the planes, the nauts or Mortarion.
For me, he's big enough that he would need his own box, and I mostly rely on public transport. If I'm hosting games then out comes big Squiggy, but otherwise he's the one box that makes it reeaaally inconvenient to take my army to games.
Jidmah wrote: Why is the garg squig so hard to transport for you guys? I just have a cheap plastic box that is covered in corrugated foam on all sides. The howdah is magnetized so I can take it of and otherwise the gargantuan squiggoth is pretty much an indestructible brick of resin.
I have some smaller models which are much more difficult to transport, like any of the planes, the nauts or Mortarion.
For me, he's big enough that he would need his own box, and I mostly rely on public transport. If I'm hosting games then out comes big Squiggy, but otherwise he's the one box that makes it reeaaally inconvenient to take my army to games.
What? You are able to move your army with the public transport? I have old suitcase 90x50x35cm for my lists! To be able to put it in the tram I need to add the wheels and engine
My list mostly fits into three magnetised boxes; one infantry sized, one tank and monster sized one, and then a kind of in-between one that fits everything left over.
flaming tadpole wrote:They’d be great if they were the same price as last edition. Right now I think they’re one of the few units in our army that isn’t good or trash, just kinda meh. Hard to justify spending 4.5 ppm more than a boy for something with worse OC but better at clearing chaff which is the one thing we don’t really need any help with.
Afrodactyl wrote:
The Red Hobbit wrote: What are everyone's thoughts on Burna Boyz? Would it be fun to load them into trukks and/or battlewagons and go burning up the board? Or simply too expensive to be worthwhile?
Some people rate them, I personally don't when you look at the other options we have
They're good in that they're pretty cheap and you can take a unit of five to park on an objective (if you didn't want to use Grots for that role), and they kill chaff and chaff+1 units pretty well.
The issue is that we already clear chaff really well, and we have better units for snagging objectives like stormboys, Grots, bikers, etc.
You could spend about 500 points on 3x Burna Boys and Trukks and likely never have to worry about light infantry, but so much of our units are already built to wade through light infantry anyway that it would likely be a waste.
Do they have a use? Yes, clearing chaff and burning things off of objectives.
Are they good at what they do? Yes.
Are they cost effective? Yes, 10 in a trukk is pretty cheap for what they do, and with the Trukk they're fast too.
Are they the best at what they do? Not necessarily, we have lots of units that clear light infantry exceptionally well, but they do have a niche of being a good overwatch unit.
Overall I'd say they're a high B tier/low A tier unit. They do what they do well, but there's other units that do it just as well (if not better) that also have the means to pull double duty in other roles.
Ultimately try them out. If you like how they perform and they fill a gap in your list, then keep them.
I will admit though, sticking loads of them in a Battlewagon or a Gargantuan Squiggoth and marching them up the board is good fun. Big bucket of dice make Ork brain go brrrr.
Makes a lot of sense, sounds like they are useful but better options certainly exist. I've been considering ways to maximize our great number of firing deck slots in our transports and given how Lootas took a hit to BS it mostly leaves Flash Gitz or Burnas. 10 in a Trukk could make for a very potent and durable Overwatch, but then I'd have to find bits for 5 more Burnas
Speaking of Firing Decks, has anyone run a Squiggoth so far? I've always wanted to run one but it's unfortunate that FW is going the way of the dodo.
Just wait.
I strongly suspect that, given how MASSIVELY reliant on plumbing nostalgia GW has been the last 3 editions, Forgeworld being phased out has a lot to do with the fact that GW's finally brought back Arbites, No, Not The Guys We Did For Necromunda Who Are Basically Arbites, we did a whole nother kit box that's actually just the Judge Dredd with serial numbers filed off guys,
....and then that's it, we've brought back EVERYTHING from RT/2e that we squatted. Even Squats. and we brought squats back 2 ways.
Forgeworld is going away so that we can get full plastic Krieg, full plastic HH, full plastic Forgeworld Tank You Remember, etc.
ccs wrote:
I ran two of the small ones in our last Crusade campaign. I mounted Kannon in both.
How did they work out in the campaign? Any particular units you had riding ontop?
Coh Magnussen wrote:
Alas, i do not believe it can, as the firing deck rule specifies "in the Shooting Phase".
Ah good point, I remember seeing that pop up in a you make da call thread but I didn't recall the outcome. Well, after the trukk goes boom they can overwatch then
Afrodactyl wrote:
I've ran a Garg Squig and I'm currently running the regular Squig, which is ferrying about my Flash Gitz. In my opinion the Squiggoth's decently fast, durable and actually hits really hard in melee.
The Garg Squig dials that up to eleven; it's crazy durable when you need it to be and kills whatever it touches in melee. The Garg does suffer from the same problems that Stompas and Baneblades do; it's so big it's a nightmare to transport and there's rarely a good route for it to move up the board because terrain exists.
I bought them mostly as centre pieces for my Squig-focused army, so I'm going out of my way to get at least one of them in each of my lists to justify the cost. So consider that a bias from me
I'm glad to hear both Squigs are doing well. I briefly considered the Garg Squig until I saw how huge it was, I think the last time I played on a table with enough space for it to stomp and maneuver around in was in 3rd ed . It's really too bad they didn't put in any rules for titanic units simply crashing through terrain
the_scotsman wrote:
....and then that's it, we've brought back EVERYTHING from RT/2e that we squatted. Even Squats. and we brought squats back 2 ways.
Forgeworld is going away so that we can get full plastic Krieg, full plastic HH, full plastic Forgeworld Tank You Remember, etc.
Oh I agree, plastic over resin is a long time coming but I don't think everything from FW is going to get the plastic treatment. Popular things like Custodes, DKOK, hopefully the warboss on the warbike (perhaps even a painboy too). I am concerned we're not going to see Squiggoths make the jump over to plastic, given the design aesthetics of the Squig riders I suspect we'll get more of those or contraptions like the kill rig instead of the awesome Squiggoths we currently have. I guess counts as will always be an option.
ccs wrote:
I ran two of the small ones in our last Crusade campaign. I mounted Kannon in both.
How did they work out in the campaign? Any particular units you had riding on top?
In general they served quite well as distraction units. Nobody had any experience facing Squiggoths & no-one really wanted to get charged/trampled by them, so they drew alot of high str/damage/AP fire.
Wich is just fine by me as that was less fire going into the units that did most of the work - my Grot Tanks & Mega-Tanks.
In CC? They were OKish. Max of 4 attacks but decent AP & potential damage. They almost never got all 4 attacks though as they were virtually always bracketed. The d3 Mw on the charge was useful.
Shooting wise? Now & then the kannons hit something.... Their real use was to look scary & reinforce the idea that the Squiggoths should be priority targets.
As for the transport ability? I never used it because the kannon reduces the capacity to 6. And other than Makari I had no infantry that qualified (my min Grot squad size was 10). Makari's place was with one of the truck mounted Grot squads.
One of the squiggoths suffered a permanently fractured skull. Every time a Battlescar was rolled for the thing this result came up. :/
Losing carrying capacity has always irritated me with a lot of our transports. Especially if it's for a weapon, since Ork shooting is...well, Ork shooting. When you've got bad shooting and then give a penalty for taking a gun it further reinforces Orks getting pushed into the melee army box. Disappointing, but at least the Squiggoths make for great distractions!
One of the squiggoths suffered a permanently fractured skull. Every time a Battlescar was rolled for the thing this result came up. :/
The reduction is a traditional thing. The idea was that you either have an empty howdah, or you mount a kannon on it, which leaves less room for boyz. Same for the battlewagon, the killkannon lorewise gave up transport space for ammunition repositories - similar to how razorbacks work compared to rhinos.
Whether such rules are still state of the art today when models are cool first and make sense second, WYSIWYG is dead and buried and rules just barely match the models at first glance is a totally different story. And that's not even criticism on my part. I like cool models over realism (I play orks, duh!) and prefer not hunting for bits when building a new unit. But I do like consistency.
Oh I fully agree with you, it makes sense that transport capacity would go down when you are using it for more armor, ammo, or weapons. It's disappointing though when it takes a good transport capacity and makes it limited to the point where really only one unit is worth putting in there (Flash Gitz) since you've only got so many spots.
If it was instead a larger capacity that dropped down to 10 it wouldn't be as painful and would leave more options open.
The Red Hobbit wrote: Oh I fully agree with you, it makes sense that transport capacity would go down when you are using it for more armor, ammo, or weapons. It's disappointing though when it takes a good transport capacity and makes it limited to the point where really only one unit is worth putting in there (Flash Gitz) since you've only got so many spots.
If it was instead a larger capacity that dropped down to 10 it wouldn't be as painful and would leave more options open.
Then what you want is the Gargantuan Squiggoth (20 or kannon + 15).
Otherwise stop being greedy. The things only about as big as a truck/rhino chassis but with legs.....
Just wanted to give an update for the 2v2 game that I had recently with my Orks. It was 1500 points for each side, and I was partnered up with my friend who brought the Necron undying wall of doom with 2 blocks of Lychguard with all the support characters in there, alongside fire support from Doomsday Arks and Heavy Lokhust Destroyers. This thankfully freed me up to go full ham on heavy hitters, where I had 2 units of Beast Snagga Boyz with Beastbosses, 2 units of Squighog Boyz with Nobz on Smasha Squigs, and a Beastboss on Squigosaur to rip up one flank, while I had 2 units of grots hiding in the backfield and Flash Gitz with Badrukk in a Trukk on the other flank helping support one of the blocks of Lychguard. We were facing against a SoB and Eldar team, where I got to see first hand how stupid Fate Dice are with Devastating Wounds.
The game was really tight on points between the two sides thankfully, we only managed to edge out a win because we were able to score every single card we had drawn for secondaries since it was one of the mission types where you get to draw 3 and discard 1. We played the Deploy Servo Skulls mission, and we managed to push deep enough on the the opposing flanks that our opponents couldn't catch up through primaries, even though they had the center objective basically in our deployment zone the whole game.
Some highlights were Badrukk and his crew absolutely ripping up a Rangers unit that had Illic Nightspear for their unit version of Lone Operative (-1 to hit was mitigated by the fact that I blew the ammo runt for lethal hits and I rolled like 18 hits after rerolls). The Beastboss on Squigosaur did work with the Eadwompa's Killchoppa, having ideal targets against Morvhenn Vahl and her Warsuits. SoB are probably one of the few factions that actually want their tanks hurt as they get significant buffs from taking wounds, they managed to be problem the whole game since they weren't in range of my stuff. Lychguard lived up to their reputation and acted as undying roadblocks that ate up an entire flank's worth of firepower and managed to take down the Avatar with a little help from our other units. The Transcendant C'tan Shard was the MVP, being able to deep strike and kill the Eldar player's Lone Operative Autarch to stop them from getting extra CP's and soaking an insane amount of damage before dying.
Most annoying part of the Eldar list was the D-cannons, which really shouldn't have indirect in my opinion, and the amount of rerolls coming out to proc 6's was pretty dumb IMO, despite being a small fraction of the Eldar army points wise.
Felt like so far I find diminishing returns for grots, I'm tempted to just take 1 in lists now since 2 sometimes is overkill when there isn't that many objectives to go after in some missions. Not sure what you guys think.
Also, I'm facing the same Eldar guy again for a 1v1, wanted to get some advice from you. Partly inspired by the previous lists from Jidmah and others, I wanted a more mobile non transport focused list that uses the Weirdboy/Boyz/Warboss and Kommandos/Snikrot combo for using 'Ere We Go strat followed by the teleport for a 7" charge, ideally with a reroll if I can get the extra CP on my turn from grots.
Here's my list so far:
Spoiler:
Badrukk - 95 Warlord
Beastboss on Squigosaur - 165 Eadwompa's Killchoppa - 20
Nob on Smasha Squig - 75
Nob on Smasha Squig - 75
Warboss with PK and Kombi Weapon - 70 Kunnin But Brutal - 15
20 Boyz, Nob with PK, 2 Rokkit Launchas - 170
Weirdboy - 55 Supa Cybork Body - 15
3 Squighog Boyz, 1 Bomb Squig - 110
3 Squighog Boyz, 1 Bomb Squig - 110
10 Kommandos, Bomb Squig, Breacha Ram, Power Klaw - 135
Boss Snikrot - 105
Trukk - 50
10 Gretchin + 1 Runtherd - 45
10 Flash Gitz, Ammo Runt - 190
I'm wondering if there's enough pressure from this list and what goes best with the boyz and kommandos as follow ups. Let me know what feedback you guys have for me.
The Red Hobbit wrote: Oh I fully agree with you, it makes sense that transport capacity would go down when you are using it for more armor, ammo, or weapons. It's disappointing though when it takes a good transport capacity and makes it limited to the point where really only one unit is worth putting in there (Flash Gitz) since you've only got so many spots.
If it was instead a larger capacity that dropped down to 10 it wouldn't be as painful and would leave more options open.
I fully agree. I guess my second part was too negative. In essence I tried to say that I would value interesting transports spaces over stuff that "makes sense". It's not even a trade-off if you drop your transport capacity to useless levels.
Then again, for FW models I consider ourselves lucky for every single one that even has worthwhile rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grimskul wrote: Felt like so far I find diminishing returns for grots, I'm tempted to just take 1 in lists now since 2 sometimes is overkill when there isn't that many objectives to go after in some missions. Not sure what you guys think.
Roughly the same. 1 is set in stone, a second one if it fits, even if that means taking no enhancements. There is just too many "instead of shooting" objectives that get a lot easier if you have an expendable unit of gretchin around. I will also never get tired of just standing a unit of gretchin within 1.1" of a unit of marines (or similar) to outscore them.
I would never drop a unit that actually does something though.
Also, I'm facing the same Eldar guy again for a 1v1, wanted to get some advice from you. Partly inspired by the previous lists from Jidmah and others, I wanted a more mobile non transport focused list that uses the Weirdboy/Boyz/Warboss and Kommandos/Snikrot combo for using 'Ere We Go strat followed by the teleport for a 7" charge, ideally with a reroll if I can get the extra CP on my turn from grots.
Here's my list so far: [snip]
I'm wondering if there's enough pressure from this list and what goes best with the boyz and kommandos as follow ups. Let me know what feedback you guys have for me.
Looks good, the only thing I'd add would be the rokkit on the kommadoz mob. Just having an extra 3 damage every other turn can make huge difference. When the mob is decimated to almost nothing, a single rokkit is still more helpful than another choppa.
A piece of advice for playing the list is to not let yourself get blinded by the "precise" on the 'eadbanger. Sure, gambling to explode a character is always the fun choice, but many characters are protected by invulnerable saves and/or FNP or simply not worth targeting. I've found the best targets for 'eadbanger are actually vehicles or monsters that lack those, as you have a much higher chance of dealing a big chunk of damage. One of my eldar opponent loves bringing support weapons for his D-Cannon needs, those are great targets, for example.
My last though would be that when playing, check carefully if your character/unit balance is right. It feels like you might leaning a bit too heavy into characters and might be a little light on units. Just a gut feeling though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a different note, last weekend I received the worst stomp in 40k since 7th edition.
But don't worry, I was playing my DG into EC with a KoS as ally. I picked a list very close to what tournament players deem competitive into a solid, but uncompetitive list. Holy gak, I had no chance, like at all. I was technically tabled by the start of my turn 3, and I didn't lose a single model in turn 1. Literally my entire army, save for three terminators and a character, were wiped out in a single turn.
It really helped me appreciate how well off orks are right now. My DG will absolutely be on the shelf for the next year or two.
On a different note, last weekend I received the worst stomp in 40k since 7th edition.
But don't worry, I was playing my DG into EC with a KoS as ally. I picked a list very close to what tournament players deem competitive into a solid, but uncompetitive list. Holy gak, I had no chance, like at all. I was technically tabled by the start of my turn 3, and I didn't lose a single model in turn 1. Literally my entire army, save for three terminators and a character, were wiped out in a single turn.
It really helped me appreciate how well off orks are right now. My DG will absolutely be on the shelf for the next year or two.
I knew DG weren't in a great spot but I didn't realise it was that bad. Makes me very grateful that our index is at least usable.
Grimskul wrote:
Also, I'm facing the same Eldar guy again for a 1v1, wanted to get some advice from you. Partly inspired by the previous lists from Jidmah and others, I wanted a more mobile non transport focused list that uses the Weirdboy/Boyz/Warboss and Kommandos/Snikrot combo for using 'Ere We Go strat followed by the teleport for a 7" charge, ideally with a reroll if I can get the extra CP on my turn from grots.
Do you expect the Eldar player will be fielding a similar army for your 1v1 game? I also play Eldar and I will say that Wraith units are extremely good and very aggressively costed if you are facing any of those variety, except for perhaps the Wraithlord who is good but not as efficient as all the other units. Support weapons with D-Cannon IDF is extremely unpleasant, but I'm not sure if you want that to be the priority target with your 7" charge, hard to say without knowing what else they are bringing. I would say krumping will probably be the better move than hunkering down on objectives, just because of the high amount of lethal firepower and fate dice Eldar have, fast moving melee which your list is geared towards may be your best bet.
Jidmah wrote:
I fully agree. I guess my second part was too negative. In essence I tried to say that I would value interesting transports spaces over stuff that "makes sense". It's not even a trade-off if you drop your transport capacity to useless levels.
Then again, for FW models I consider ourselves lucky for every single one that even has worthwhile rules.
Ah I see what you mean, and I feel likewise it's great having legends rules for a lot of great models.
Nob option and Thudd Gun!
