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Had a game (about 1500) vs eldar and tried out some new stuff... formost badruk+flashgitz, burnas and grot tanks



grot tanks: gotta say i am impressed with the grottanks! they are great vs massed infantry, cause of blast and s9 ap2 3dmg makes them also great vs. light tanks and heavy infantry. vs real tanks... not so much. the only alternative i see are KmK's.
burnaz did ok, good range with the trukk.
Flashgitz are amazing. first turn i drove them behind a building and took potshots at a guardian unit and together with the grottanks wiped em, so only the farseer remained with 2 wounds left. afterwards the farseer didnt move because he feared overwatch, so basically took him out of the game. in 2nd turn they disembarked into building. 5 of em and badruk took all but 1 wound off a wraithlord, the other 5 anihilated a squad of reapers in cover.
mozdrag tanked like a champ, then got charged by wraithblades (survived no problem), wiffed his attacks but landed a critical wound on one of the chompas attack, dealing 4 mortals.
so yeah its a pitty he only gets ap 1. but i get it, he's there to draw fire from the brightlances, which would otherwise just delete trukks left and right.
nobz+ warbosstanked also pretty well and did great damage in melee. warboss is a beast in CC. i think HWKC is mandatory for him, to fish for those sixes when he waaghs.

i think badruk + 5 FG are mandatory in any of my lists, as are grottanks and mozdrag.

if i would up my list to 2000 i would simply add more snaggaz in trukks (for objective play), maybe some KMK's (for antitank) and upgrade a trukk to a BW (to relief some of the tankyness off of mozdrag).

nevertheless... we seriously really lack high strenght units vs big tough tanks. i bareley amnaged to kill wavesserpents... if i would ever face a redeemer... i think i would just auto concede
we got no melee besides titanic stuff and only some moderate shooting from KMK's and the mekflyer...

 Jidmah wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Spoiler:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
Only decent? 5 of them still fwoosh 10 GEQ off an objective with the help of their trukk.

I'd say whether to go 5 or 10 is gonna be meta dependent. I'd start looking at 10 more if melee was more common, but currently people do a lot of holding objectives with tokens. The biggest reason to go for 10 IMO is to have them as a tool to help them to have a little cushion to survive overwatch. Lets say your opponent was rocking hexmark destroyers for example - drive a bus of 5 burnas up to them, its just gonna free overwatch and kill 3/5. Drive up 10, and you can still clear the objective.

Kommandos are better at that particular gig of course but sometimes you need something that can pinch hit.

Am I missing something?

A unit of 5 has 4 burnas, which get 4d6 hits, an average of 14 hits, wound 9.33, another 3.11 with full re-rolls 8.29 dead after armor, one or two less for targets not on an objective. If there is a leader with them, they have some extra defensive measures it quickly looks terrible, against orks and marines you might as well not bother shooting at all. Not to mention playing around them is quite easy.

I get your point about lone operatives, but I feel like a dakka jet, SJD or even just a trukk full of beastsnaggas would do a better job for less points.

I love my burnas, but they have been nothing but a huge disappointment so far.

The 2 big shootas between the trukk and the mandatory spanna make up an additional 1.71w vs GEQ, hence my comment. Agreed about additional defenses - I've found few people are actually running min token squads. Mainly I run burnas in 10s or rather 2x5.

Two comments on that:
1) I don't run big shootas on spannas, I see no reason to. KMB have 3 shots flat now and are free.
2) You can't have an infinite amount of trukks anymore, so you are paying an opportunity cost here. Therefore it would be wrong to factor in the trukk as part of the burna unit's value.
In any case,

I've found the fact that they do the majority of their stuff in shooting rather than in melee is the main draw of them for me, because you can move, disembark and shoot, you get a much more reliable approach path to get to something you want to clear off.

That actually is a good point. It has never played out that way for me, and you can't flip objectives this way either. I'd rather use flash gits for this tasks, but if to works for you, sure.

"Against orks and marines you might as well not bother shooting at all" is an odd comment, seeing as they do have the wound rr. A unit of 10 matches the output of snaggaz into MEQs, less effective into orks but they still clear 12.

I was talking about units of 5, but sure. You re-roll ones most of the times, not everything. For 10 you get 8d6 = 28 hits, 15-16 wounds, 2-3 dead marines, including whatever gun the spannas have. Which means you spent 180 points to not even kill a whole unit of marines unless you go for a super narrow target selection (on objective, no defensive buffs, no worthwhile overwatch) in order to get value from them. You can't even properly deny area with their overwatch because most units will just casually walk through the flames.
I prefer to plan for the worst case, not for the best case, because otherwise I'm stuck with sub-optimal units when things don't go my way for whatever reason.
So I'd take 10 beastsnaggas with their reliable 8ish wounds against marines for that trukk over burnas any day. At least they can help me fight through a screen of infiltrators, assault intercessors or a gravis squad when needed and are able to flip an objective against pretty much any marine unit due to OC2.

I've finally had a game with a list that I felt was solid, and burnas played a big role in that. To put it bluntly, I was wrong.

We played to the bottom of T3 with a VP score of 37 to 28, but my regular dark angel opponent was essentially tabled with just 1 inceptor and 3 eliminators lead by a librarian left - and the later would have been in both burna and charge range next turn, so he conceded.

The list was... *drum roll*... a traditional battlewagon bash

Spoiler:

10 Flash Gitz + Badrukk
8+2 Burnas
8+2 Burnas

5 Nobz + Warboss
5 Nobz + Warboss
10 Kommandoz (klaw, ram, rokkit)

Mek (not attached, rides with flash gits)
Mek (not attached, rides with burnas)

10+1 gretchin + Da Red Gobbo
10+1 gretchin

SJD
SJD
KBB

Battlewagon (killkannon+everything else)
Battlewagon (zzap gun+everything else)
Trukk
Trukk

We were playing the mission where home objectives don't score for primary and the other objectives start disappearing one by one, so the gretchin were kind of useless outside of generating a single CP over the course of the game. I did draw a tactical objective which required my to hold the home objective and the other unit did make a unit of bolter inceptor deep strike on them without a single VP to show for the effort, so that's a win in my book.
Da red gobbo really should be a codex unit, he is a great way to spend your last few points and give a non-mans land rushing grot unit some bite. Shouldn't be too hard to make a non-festive version of him, right?

Flash gits are bonkers. This is my first game with them ever, and true to my ork nature I drove them straight to the biggest thing on the table (a repulsor), jumped out and opened fire. Despite not getting the extra attacks for aiming at the closest target, the tank was blown away and left behind a very unhappy unit of now footbound bladeguard lead by a judicar. Needless to say, my opponent completely freaked, oathed them and clobbered them to green paste afterwards. Still worth it, ork shooting hasn't been that effective since 5th edition lootas.
Bringing a battlewagon as a ride instead of a truck also paid off. Despite being oath'ed my opponent whiffed a couple of big guns on it and then decided to cut his losses and killed a nobz' trukk instead.

True to the battlewagon bash, I absolutely brought a burna wagon, and it did the arch-arsonist proud. First turn it torched a unit of helblasters, second turn the bladeguard went up in smoke and turn 3 the burnas jumped out to get their re-rolls and burned a deathwing command squad to the ground (triggering the concession). Just like with the lootas, the KMB pulled a lot of their weight, especially with the mek running behind the wagon and buffing them to 4+ absolutely being worth every single point.

Both battlewagon's guns amounted to pretty much nothing despite mek buffs, but the extra durability over a trukk was absolutely necessary for the units they were transporting. Their melee is okish, but not that great against units with good saves - however the mek buff works for both shooting and melee, the battlewagon still go some mileage out of it. I even got to use carreen! for the first time when the git's transport was killed by bladeguard, though I used it to move it away from my own units.

The KBB didn't add much value. The most dangerous units were usually those making use of oath of monent, so the -1 to hit didn't do anything at all. Otherwise the gun lacks AP, the brunas lack range.
SJD, on the flip side, were awesome. In just 3 turns they scored 15 VP by jumping to wherever I needed them, always taking care to not put them in harms way and took potshots at whatever was in range. The occasional devastating wounds trigger always was... well, devastating to the unit hit by it. They also synergize well with meks, as you can jump directly onto them for a repair job and them shoot someone with a 2+ shokk rifle and 4+ rokkit.

Nobz were being nobz, killing stuff with klaws, taking shooting way above their weight class. It's worth noting that they were unable to do anything about the bladeguard buffed with fight first from the judicar or even the judicar itself.

Kommadoz are a no-brainer for T1 scoring, did nothing worth noting otherwise.

Did you play the SJD as being able to relocate and shoot? And would you ever just consider 2x weirdboys without any boys to otherwise also teleport around to do missions? At that point they would do the same, albeit at a chance of 1/6 that your da jump wont go off.

Gotta say your list looks weird. Did you really buy 2 meks to give +1 to hit for a battle wagon and the KMB sitting inside of it?

Im not sure i consider 135 points worth of kommandos no brainer for turn 1 scoring. One could use 65 points of stormboys for the same purpose though. Your list seem very tactical, with very little killing potential. How on earth did the burnaboys burn so many things? Agree on the flash gitz. They are bonkers. Also 4 stock attacks with their choppers? Thats 57 attacks on a waaagh, wounding space marines in melee on 2s sine Badrukk gives them -1 toughness and we get +1 strength on a waaagh.

Shoot one target, chop another target to death.

Over all, interesting list.

 Bonde wrote:
Thanks for the answers guys. That was exactly what I feared. I guess we need to wait for for the codex for them to be fixed. Perhaps they will get a new kit with all rokkit options. I can see that being forced to take one melee weapon, and one short range weapon in a small, elite priced unit just doesn't make sense. The only way it would make sense would be to make the models with tankhammer and rokkit pistols very cheap in points, but that still leaves you with three models that can actually shoot.

Rokkits are priced in at about ~5 points on kommandoz, spannas and boyz, there is absolutely no reason to charge more than 13 for a tankbusta with a rokkit, let alone for either of the inferior options.

That said, I'd be very surprised if a plastic kit would allow for full rokkit load-outs. It always has been a nightmare to balance such a glass cannon unit. At best, one of the orks will be a nob-combi build to allow taking 10 in one unit again, at worst there will be a beastsnagga unit that has a similar role and tank bustas become legends.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beardedragon wrote:
Did you play the SJD as being able to relocate and shoot?

Yes. Despite the wording being odd, the rules are pretty clear on that.

And would you ever just consider 2x weirdboys without any boys to otherwise also teleport around to do missions? At that point they would do the same, albeit at a chance of 1/6 that your da jump wont go off.

Absolutely not. The big selling point of SJDs is just costing 85 points, being sufficiently resilient to small army fire to not care about other backfield units and actually contributing meaningful firepower from 24" away.
A weirdboy can get gunned down by a unit of guardsmen or bolter marines easily, meaning it's really just an unreliable suicide unit that might not even be able to score. OC3 also works in their favor for this tasks as they can take away an objective from rhinos or 3 marine units, or double up on an objective and deny scoring easily, weird boyz can't do that. If you aren't looking for vehicle synergy, you should use storm boyz for this task.

Solo Boss Snikrot would be worth a try, but he is more expensive than a SJD anyways.

Gotta say your list looks weird. Did you really buy 2 meks to give +1 to hit for a battle wagon and the KMB sitting inside of it?

One mek for battlewagon+KMB, one mek for battlewagon+flash gitz if you aren't in a position where you want to disembark yet. If you disembark to the side, the mek can keep up with the wagon for two turns, even if it goes at full speed. My opponent hid his stuff well T1, so the flash gits had to get out to kill his tank, spoiling that plan a bit. There also was the thought of [Hazardous] zaping the wagon for 3 MW and needing a countermeasure for that.
They also buffed/repaired the buggies when needed.
The repairs were just as relevant as the buff though, the two meks repaired 9 wounds over the three turns the game went and those definitely kept one SJD alive and protected my nobz from being charged by the bladeguard as one bw was parked in front of them as a roadblock and just barely survived shooting at 2 wounds, forcing the bladeguard to finish it off.

Im not sure i consider 135 points worth of kommandos no brainer for turn 1 scoring. One could use 65 points of stormboys for the same purpose though.

Maybe, but I prefer kommandoz for them be just durable enough that no one can casually shoot them off an objective. Stealth and the distraction grot makes them a pain to remove for my opponents, especially if I put them under pressure. Stormboyz just die to a flanking unit.

Your list seem very tactical, with very little killing potential. How on earth did the burnaboys burn so many things?

Very little killing potential? That's not how I perceived it. Sure, it's not an eldar army, but it totally melted everything that came close enough. Warbosses and Nobz crush any marine unit they touch and despite my comment on battlewagon shooting the killkannon and metric ton of S5 shots do cause a ton of saves - often making my opponent use stratagems to protect his unit, just for me to then point all the other units at something else and kill the unprotected unit.

The burna wagon killed so much by weight of numbers. Following the math from the post above, 16 burnas themselves already deal 9ish wounds to a squad of MEQ and neither armor of contempt nor cover can protect them from that. On top of that, you have another 12 S9 AP-2 d6 dmg shots to blast a hole into more durable targets, potentially hitting on 4+. With the help of their wagon's guns they had no trouble killing the helblasters or the bladeguard. For the terminators, I had already killed one with the careening wagon, one of the KMBs killed another one and the remaining three were wiped out by 11 unsaved wounds - above average, but not terribly so.

Tactically, I wasn't sitting on objectives scoring points, but barreling toward the far no-man land's objective since it would be worth 8/15 VP in the last two turns of the mission we played. While they took out one of my threats each turn, the marines were unable to stop the big deathball of battlewagons, nobz and buggies coming towards them, essentially losing the vast amount of their army trying to defend objectives from me, while the gretchin, SJD and kommandoz prevented any backfield shenanigans on their side.

Agree on the flash gitz. They are bonkers. Also 4 stock attacks with their choppers? Thats 57 attacks on a waaagh, wounding space marines in melee on 2s sine Badrukk gives them -1 toughness and we get +1 strength on a waaagh.

Shoot one target, chop another target to death.

I just go one turn of shooting (probably could have used them better), and overwatched on my opponent's turn before they died, so I never got to fight with them.

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Did you play the SJD as being able to relocate and shoot?

Yes. Despite the wording being odd, the rules are pretty clear on that.

units arriving from reinforcement are always treated as having made a normal move. so, yeah jumping and shooting works.

The little killing potential i was talking about was more centered around killing high toughness targets. Surely you can kill smaller toughness things as thats not where orks are bad, but i dont see a lot of targets being able to kill anything toughness 10 or 11.

Your Nobz can do that on the waagh turn, your flash gitz can reliably do that one turn with the ammo runt, and maybe the battlewagons can on the waaagh turn as well if you are lucky.

But once the Waagh turn is out you are not going to be killing vehicles reliably i would say.

There are no squighog boys, mozrog, beastboss with snagga boys, beastboss on squig, nobz on smasha squigs with kill choppas, Ghaz, mega nobz or any of those.

I would possibly worry a bit about how you would fare against knights, chaos knights, or another army that focuses a lot on actual vehicles or monsters, maybe a monster mash from Tyranids.

What vehicles did your enemy dark angels use?

But maybe it fares alright, i dont know. It just looks more tactical than killy to me. Which is fine given the nature of 10th edition.

Played a fun game last night vs WE. I’m pretty tired of playing msu spam that just plays the mission so decided to go full smash with ghaz, megaboss, 2x5 manz, 3x10 snaggas w/ beastboss in each, mozrog and 6 kmk. First turn just premeasured a bit and got close enough to try and bait long charges, opponent then didn’t make hardly any, turn two charged basically entire army into their entire army and killed angron, daemon prince, two defilers and leaving a third with a few wounds.

We called it at bottom of 2. Gotta say it was nice krumping stuff again, I don’t think I can really play msu body block with orks for more than 2 games in a row without losing my mind. Also after 15 or so games I’m starting to kinda favor manz over nobz. I like nobz but they really are more of a one use missile because -1 to wound isn’t usually gonna save them against most opponents whereas manz have the staying power against most things not eldar or gsc and will at least be wounding vehicles. Snaggas did snagga things gimping all the defilers thanks to makaris lethals. Megaboss I’m actually liking a lot more now. I think I was way too hard on him by initial impression. Basically the only other character outside squigbosses and ghaz that isn’t gonna die instantly and can actually hurt high T.

Beardedragon wrote:
The little killing potential i was talking about was more centered around killing high toughness targets. Surely you can kill smaller toughness things as thats not where orks are bad, but i dont see a lot of targets being able to kill anything toughness 10 or 11.

Your Nobz can do that on the waagh turn, your flash gitz can reliably do that one turn with the ammo runt, and maybe the battlewagons can on the waaagh turn as well if you are lucky.

But once the Waagh turn is out you are not going to be killing vehicles reliably i would say.

There are no squighog boys, mozrog, beastboss with snagga boys, beastboss on squig, nobz on smasha squigs with kill choppas, Ghaz, mega nobz or any of those.

I would possibly worry a bit about how you would fare against knights, chaos knights, or another army that focuses a lot on actual vehicles or monsters, maybe a monster mash from Tyranids.

What vehicles did your enemy dark angels use?

But maybe it fares alright, i dont know. It just looks more tactical than killy to me. Which is fine given the nature of 10th edition.

Well, I did take down a repulsor (flash gits), a redemptor (SJD/KMB/nobz) and the missile primaris speeder (assorted stuff).
In my experience, none of the units you listed outside of squighogs deal significantly more damage to a vehicle than a unit of nobz lead by a warboss.
Knights are very likely to be an issue for the list because most of the units I play rely on armor and toughness to survive and both mean nothing to them. Damage wise, almost everything in the list had 2 damage or more (battlewagon melee, killkannon, SJD, KBB, nobz, flash gits) and my opponent absolutely felt that. Grenades and tank shock also really helped dealing with the redemptor and I had CP to spare since I did not have to use 'ard as nails ever turn.

That said, dropping kommandoz, KBB and a unit of gretchin for hogs might and maybe fit in a beastboss on squigosaur is high on the list of things to try.
The other thing I want to try is the mek workshop. I do have to try the 2d3 repairs per turn.
Another though would be trying to switch the nobz for beastsnaggas lead by beastbosses. Or if my kilrig ever gets done printing, I'll try that.

It's by no means perfect, but it worked a lot better for me than anything I've tried this edition so far.

Hmm I missed my first 10th ed game today. We did this instead and it was pretty fun. The rise of Mekaorks instead of Snagga orkz on the horizont!

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Played a fun game last night vs WE. I’m pretty tired of playing msu spam that just plays the mission so decided to go full smash with ghaz, megaboss, 2x5 manz, 3x10 snaggas w/ beastboss in each, mozrog and 6 kmk. First turn just premeasured a bit and got close enough to try and bait long charges, opponent then didn’t make hardly any, turn two charged basically entire army into their entire army and killed angron, daemon prince, two defilers and leaving a third with a few wounds.

We called it at bottom of 2. Gotta say it was nice krumping stuff again, I don’t think I can really play msu body block with orks for more than 2 games in a row without losing my mind. Also after 15 or so games I’m starting to kinda favor manz over nobz. I like nobz but they really are more of a one use missile because -1 to wound isn’t usually gonna save them against most opponents whereas manz have the staying power against most things not eldar or gsc and will at least be wounding vehicles. Snaggas did snagga things gimping all the defilers thanks to makaris lethals. Megaboss I’m actually liking a lot more now. I think I was way too hard on him by initial impression. Basically the only other character outside squigbosses and ghaz that isn’t gonna die instantly and can actually hurt high T.

Funny, i think their both "one use missile", have yet to have meganobz last more then 1 turn too. Nobz i came to the conclusion 5 man squads is perfect, even if wiped they kill a lot. last game against nids they cleared stealers and even did 7 damage to a scythed hierule. I barely won that game by T2 i was in the backfoot. I went with 5 man meganobz with gaz, almost got gaz sniped T1.. while gaz and friends manage to recoup losses(took a full genestealer+character +2 zoanthroapes and left the swarmlord at 2w) i don't think he is viable.. he is still too expensive and meganobz are not that hard to kill, way easier then nobz. What i think is the way is groups of 3 with boss in mega armor, 2 of those in a truck, one with the FNP enhancement makes it feel like a beastboss at 115pts and with sv2, all that is close to 240pts i think? I also think the beastboss with kunning trait is amazing to spam mortal. I have to say i no longer think skarbrad is worth a while and i rather bring a normal beast boss on squig for the 1cp heroic for 6M and charge rerolls. Skarbrad just wiffs too much to be worth mentioning(give him AP damn it!).

What i am considering now is maybe scooping my units while in combat with trucks. By the rules it's now possible to embark while in CC? I will tr next game

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
The little killing potential i was talking about was more centered around killing high toughness targets. Surely you can kill smaller toughness things as thats not where orks are bad, but i dont see a lot of targets being able to kill anything toughness 10 or 11.

Your Nobz can do that on the waagh turn, your flash gitz can reliably do that one turn with the ammo runt, and maybe the battlewagons can on the waaagh turn as well if you are lucky.

But once the Waagh turn is out you are not going to be killing vehicles reliably i would say.

There are no squighog boys, mozrog, beastboss with snagga boys, beastboss on squig, nobz on smasha squigs with kill choppas, Ghaz, mega nobz or any of those.

I would possibly worry a bit about how you would fare against knights, chaos knights, or another army that focuses a lot on actual vehicles or monsters, maybe a monster mash from Tyranids.

What vehicles did your enemy dark angels use?

But maybe it fares alright, i dont know. It just looks more tactical than killy to me. Which is fine given the nature of 10th edition.

Well, I did take down a repulsor (flash gits), a redemptor (SJD/KMB/nobz) and the missile primaris speeder (assorted stuff).
In my experience, none of the units you listed outside of squighogs deal significantly more damage to a vehicle than a unit of nobz lead by a warboss.
Knights are very likely to be an issue for the list because most of the units I play rely on armor and toughness to survive and both mean nothing to them. Damage wise, almost everything in the list had 2 damage or more (battlewagon melee, killkannon, SJD, KBB, nobz, flash gits) and my opponent absolutely felt that. Grenades and tank shock also really helped dealing with the redemptor and I had CP to spare since I did not have to use 'ard as nails ever turn.

That said, dropping kommandoz, KBB and a unit of gretchin for hogs might and maybe fit in a beastboss on squigosaur is high on the list of things to try.
The other thing I want to try is the mek workshop. I do have to try the 2d3 repairs per turn.
Another though would be trying to switch the nobz for beastsnaggas lead by beastbosses. Or if my kilrig ever gets done printing, I'll try that.

It's by no means perfect, but it worked a lot better for me than anything I've tried this edition so far.

I have only tried one game with 2 kill rigs in 10th against world eaters and i was not impressed. Going down in AP, losing its mortal wounds damage out put and hitting on 4s with the squig (which went from AP-3 to AP-1, ouch!) all the while going up in price to 220... I was not impressed at all. Although i also did not use a mek to give it +1 to hit so maybe that can do something. But without the mek at least it seemed a bit mediocre. I would probably opt for a cheaper battlewagon then.

No idea on the Mek Shop, i dont own one. But i will definitely try and fit in 2 dragstas in my armies to see how i can play around with them. I was just under the impression they sucked.

Beardedragon wrote:
I have only tried one game with 2 kill rigs in 10th against world eaters and i was not impressed. Going down in AP, losing its mortal wounds damage out put and hitting on 4s with the squig (which went from AP-3 to AP-1, ouch!) all the while going up in price to 220... I was not impressed at all. Although i also did not use a mek to give it +1 to hit so maybe that can do something. But without the mek at least it seemed a bit mediocre. I would probably opt for a cheaper battlewagon then.

Yeah, I'll keep that in mind. I also like the buff pushing all those S9 attacks across the army to S10, but I'd have to see if that actually works out in the end.
A the hunta rig also doesn't look to shabby if you want to lug a ton of beastsnagga boyz around for objective flipping. At that point it's more about making a model I have work rather than actually making the best choice though.

No idea on the Mek Shop, i dont own one. But i will definitely try and fit in 2 dragstas in my armies to see how i can play around with them. I was just under the impression they sucked.

If you expect an anti-tank gun or a sniper, they will absolutely suck. I see any damage they do as a bonus, they are for grabbing objectives and scoring VP only.

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Played a fun game last night vs WE. I’m pretty tired of playing msu spam that just plays the mission so decided to go full smash with ghaz, megaboss, 2x5 manz, 3x10 snaggas w/ beastboss in each, mozrog and 6 kmk. First turn just premeasured a bit and got close enough to try and bait long charges, opponent then didn’t make hardly any, turn two charged basically entire army into their entire army and killed angron, daemon prince, two defilers and leaving a third with a few wounds.

We called it at bottom of 2. Gotta say it was nice krumping stuff again, I don’t think I can really play msu body block with orks for more than 2 games in a row without losing my mind. Also after 15 or so games I’m starting to kinda favor manz over nobz. I like nobz but they really are more of a one use missile because -1 to wound isn’t usually gonna save them against most opponents whereas manz have the staying power against most things not eldar or gsc and will at least be wounding vehicles. Snaggas did snagga things gimping all the defilers thanks to makaris lethals. Megaboss I’m actually liking a lot more now. I think I was way too hard on him by initial impression. Basically the only other character outside squigbosses and ghaz that isn’t gonna die instantly and can actually hurt high T.

Yeah honestly the more I lean in towards the attempting to actually do stuff playstyle the more I'm reminded that...it does work, and the fact that you can only really kill big stuff on waagh turn is kind of fine, because how many turns of actual action is there in the average game anyway.

Under what circumstances would you choose a KMB over a rokkit?

Coh Magnussen wrote:
Under what circumstances would you choose a KMB over a rokkit?

Hmmm, like some one mentioned, rokkits are really good into 3 or 2 wound elite infantry, their profile and ap -2 is the ideal weapon. KMB is more your melta weapon, the issue is meltas suck currently, and ours too, D6 is more into big boy's but S9 will limit the big boy's to shoot at, so it's only ever good at light/medium vehicles like T9, the issue is it competes with the reliability of rokkits, since rokkits do a flat 3 damage. It's bad versus elite infantry and bad versus vehicles, i can't see a reason to ever pick it up, unless some changes are applied. Honestly prefer KMK on mek guns over the KMB.

Holy gak. I thought "Ere we go gave +2 move, +2 advance and +2 charge, but its only +2 advance and +2 charge.

Oh dear i have been cheating a lot since 10th came out then lol. I dont think ive made such a big blunder in a very long time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
I have only tried one game with 2 kill rigs in 10th against world eaters and i was not impressed. Going down in AP, losing its mortal wounds damage out put and hitting on 4s with the squig (which went from AP-3 to AP-1, ouch!) all the while going up in price to 220... I was not impressed at all. Although i also did not use a mek to give it +1 to hit so maybe that can do something. But without the mek at least it seemed a bit mediocre. I would probably opt for a cheaper battlewagon then.

Yeah, I'll keep that in mind. I also like the buff pushing all those S9 attacks across the army to S10, but I'd have to see if that actually works out in the end.
A the hunta rig also doesn't look to shabby if you want to lug a ton of beastsnagga boyz around for objective flipping. At that point it's more about making a model I have work rather than actually making the best choice though.

No idea on the Mek Shop, i dont own one. But i will definitely try and fit in 2 dragstas in my armies to see how i can play around with them. I was just under the impression they sucked.

If you expect an anti-tank gun or a sniper, they will absolutely suck. I see any damage they do as a bonus, they are for grabbing objectives and scoring VP only.

problem i fear with the dragsta is that it has large bases so its easy to screen out for mission play. The lone weirdboy is easy to hide and hard to screen out.

Forceride wrote:

Funny, i think their both "one use missile", have yet to have meganobz last more then 1 turn too. Nobz i came to the conclusion 5 man squads is perfect, even if wiped they kill a lot. last game against nids they cleared stealers and even did 7 damage to a scythed hierule. I barely won that game by T2 i was in the backfoot. I went with 5 man meganobz with gaz, almost got gaz sniped T1.. while gaz and friends manage to recoup losses(took a full genestealer+character +2 zoanthroapes and left the swarmlord at 2w) i don't think he is viable.. he is still too expensive and meganobz are not that hard to kill, way easier then nobz. What i think is the way is groups of 3 with boss in mega armor, 2 of those in a truck, one with the FNP enhancement makes it feel like a beastboss at 115pts and with sv2, all that is close to 240pts i think? I also think the beastboss with kunning trait is amazing to spam mortal. I have to say i no longer think skarbrad is worth a while and i rather bring a normal beast boss on squig for the 1cp heroic for 6M and charge rerolls. Skarbrad just wiffs too much to be worth mentioning(give him AP damn it!).

Ya probably depends on how your using them a bit too. I run manz in an army where majority of it is a melee threat so I'm all for my opponent focusing them because I'm just gonna pop ard as nails and watch them waste an unnecessary amount of firepower into a squad that is mostly there to do just that while the rest of my army does damage.

Will have to hard disagree on Mozrog. You need a killchoppa on squigboss to really be in the same ballpark damage wise and at that point for 10pts more you can get a character with a better invun and much higher damage ceiling on big things like knights.

Hey everyone,

I'm getting back into Orks after a Long time away, and as I'm looking at doing a trukk-heavy infantry force. This naturally led me to the Meks:

Mekaniak: At the end of your Movement phase, you can select one friendly Orks Vehicle model within 3" of this model. That Vehicle model regains up to D3 lost wounds, and, until the start of your next Movement phase, each time that Vehicle model makes an attack, add 1 to the Hit roll. Each model can only be selected for this ability once per turn.

Sounds like they will heal and improve the shooting of a vehicle they are close enough to. My original plan was to put them in some of the trukks, but on page 17 of the Core Rules, it says:

If a unit makes a Normal, Advance or Fall Back move, and every model in that unit ends that move within 3" of a friendly Transport model, they can embark within it. A unit cannot embark if it has already disembarked from a Transport model in the same phase. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked within that Transport model. Unless otherwise stated, units cannot do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked. (emphasis mine)

So in order for the Mek to use the ability, he has to disembark, right? Until he does, he's not really there.

This could still work (disembarking after a trukks movement, or embarking right before the trukk moves), but I wanted to clear the issue up before I start assembling and painting.

If any of you can help, I'd appreciate it! Thanks!

CharlesNCharg wrote:
Hey everyone,

I'm getting back into Orks after a Long time away, and as I'm looking at doing a trukk-heavy infantry force. This naturally led me to the Meks:

Mekaniak: At the end of your Movement phase, you can select one friendly Orks Vehicle model within 3" of this model. That Vehicle model regains up to D3 lost wounds, and, until the start of your next Movement phase, each time that Vehicle model makes an attack, add 1 to the Hit roll. Each model can only be selected for this ability once per turn.

Sounds like they will heal and improve the shooting of a vehicle they are close enough to. My original plan was to put them in some of the trukks, but on page 17 of the Core Rules, it says:

If a unit makes a Normal, Advance or Fall Back move, and every model in that unit ends that move within 3" of a friendly Transport model, they can embark within it. A unit cannot embark if it has already disembarked from a Transport model in the same phase. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side – it is now embarked within that Transport model. Unless otherwise stated, units cannot do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked. (emphasis mine)

So in order for the Mek to use the ability, he has to disembark, right? Until he does, he's not really there.

This could still work (disembarking after a trukks movement, or embarking right before the trukk moves), but I wanted to clear the issue up before I start assembling and painting.

If any of you can help, I'd appreciate it! Thanks!

Correct, nobody can use their aura or datasheet abilities while inside a transport unless explicitly stated otherwise, so his buff ability can only be used while outside the transport.

Thank you! That helps a lot!

 the_scotsman wrote:

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Played a fun game last night vs WE. I’m pretty tired of playing msu spam that just plays the mission so decided to go full smash with ghaz, megaboss, 2x5 manz, 3x10 snaggas w/ beastboss in each, mozrog and 6 kmk. First turn just premeasured a bit and got close enough to try and bait long charges, opponent then didn’t make hardly any, turn two charged basically entire army into their entire army and killed angron, daemon prince, two defilers and leaving a third with a few wounds.

We called it at bottom of 2. Gotta say it was nice krumping stuff again, I don’t think I can really play msu body block with orks for more than 2 games in a row without losing my mind. Also after 15 or so games I’m starting to kinda favor manz over nobz. I like nobz but they really are more of a one use missile because -1 to wound isn’t usually gonna save them against most opponents whereas manz have the staying power against most things not eldar or gsc and will at least be wounding vehicles. Snaggas did snagga things gimping all the defilers thanks to makaris lethals. Megaboss I’m actually liking a lot more now. I think I was way too hard on him by initial impression. Basically the only other character outside squigbosses and ghaz that isn’t gonna die instantly and can actually hurt high T.

Yeah honestly the more I lean in towards the attempting to actually do stuff playstyle the more I'm reminded that...it does work, and the fact that you can only really kill big stuff on waagh turn is kind of fine, because how many turns of actual action is there in the average game anyway.

Ya exactly, I'm mostly at the point where it's like the top factions are gonna have an advantage over us regardless and it seems the few ork lists that are actually decent at tourney's atm are ones that lean more into damage probably because it catches opponents off because they're used to seeing msu spam orks that basically don't even interact with anything all game.

We can probably build towards both MSU objective lists and for dealing damage. Our characters are really good force multipliers for our punchy units, and we have really good objective grabbers. Just mucking about in battleforge you could run something like:



We certainly have potential in both aspects of the game, I think our main obstacles are that the toppest tier armies at the moment are either sleepy gatekeepers like knights, or are just bonkers like Aeldari, GSC or Custodes.

 flaming tadpole wrote:

Forceride wrote:

Funny, i think their both "one use missile", have yet to have meganobz last more then 1 turn too. Nobz i came to the conclusion 5 man squads is perfect, even if wiped they kill a lot. last game against nids they cleared stealers and even did 7 damage to a scythed hierule. I barely won that game by T2 i was in the backfoot. I went with 5 man meganobz with gaz, almost got gaz sniped T1.. while gaz and friends manage to recoup losses(took a full genestealer+character +2 zoanthroapes and left the swarmlord at 2w) i don't think he is viable.. he is still too expensive and meganobz are not that hard to kill, way easier then nobz. What i think is the way is groups of 3 with boss in mega armor, 2 of those in a truck, one with the FNP enhancement makes it feel like a beastboss at 115pts and with sv2, all that is close to 240pts i think? I also think the beastboss with kunning trait is amazing to spam mortal. I have to say i no longer think skarbrad is worth a while and i rather bring a normal beast boss on squig for the 1cp heroic for 6M and charge rerolls. Skarbrad just wiffs too much to be worth mentioning(give him AP damn it!).

Ya probably depends on how your using them a bit too. I run manz in an army where majority of it is a melee threat so I'm all for my opponent focusing them because I'm just gonna pop ard as nails and watch them waste an unnecessary amount of firepower into a squad that is mostly there to do just that while the rest of my army does damage.

Will have to hard disagree on Mozrog. You need a killchoppa on squigboss to really be in the same ballpark damage wise and at that point for 10pts more you can get a character with a better invun and much higher damage ceiling on big things like knights.

Full melee armie with trucks support, up to 6 trucks. No idea how to do a viable list at the moment with out them. Their that good.

My issue with Moz is his AP, if he does not charge, there is a low chance of doing damage, if fighting big stuff, you will find most of the time between Sv3 or Sv2 with the low AP and few attacks is actually depending on his charge, with MW being in the WS3 bite. Having used him in most my games i seen this plenty of times, he either fumbles his attacks or the opponent makes the saves. To finish it, he also most of the time has to go through FNP. So the things he kill's are generally stuff i can use other tools to kill, but the things i want him to kill he just too unreliable. Anyway this is my point of view the difference to beastboss is it always does MW against the heavy stuff, it ignores their saves, it's not a lot of damage yes, but overall they do the same damage he is just more reliable, it also brings utility making my beast snagga charges more safe and heroic at 1cp is nothing to ignore too for 6'm anyway, maybe you have had more mileage with Moz, but opponent's i have faced showed me i need raw damage on the table, a brick ain't worth it if it is ignored.

Hmmm most my opponents are either shooty to the point they can pop 2 trucks easily or something like nids with shooting/melee, he generally play's at GT so it takes advantage of every little of my mistakes(almost sniped gaz), but i like it that way, improves my play. So he catalogues really quickly my threats. He is also in the same opinion of Moz, in his view, the character is good, but with out rerolls or other tools to fish the mortals and damage, he is just a brick. I am not saying he is bad though i think Moz has play with double beastboss on squig. But if i have to take one i take utility and reliability over big damage potential, because when Moz wiffs he wiffs big time.

I'm loving the idea of lone weirdboys teleporting themselves off to score points in hard to reach places, from turn 1. It set me to working on a list that maxes out fixed secondaries BEL and DTH.

It'ss two of each weirdboyz, 5 stormboyz, snazzwagon (advance and do actions, passive special rule) plus maybe 10 stormboyz who can charge T1 an survive until the end of the turn, and a unit of kommandos also. Snikrot maybe but he's expensive.
The rest of the list is still to hold the middle, lotsa trukks obvs, and a couple of punchy units. I'm gonna try out 10 nobz with half and half loadout so they are happy going into most things.

Is the Gorkanaut cheap and durable enough to take as a distraction carnifex/ bullet magnet? Vs real big guns it could reserve to at least get one round of shooting and a possible charge.

Forceride wrote:

 flaming tadpole wrote:

Forceride wrote:

Funny, i think their both "one use missile", have yet to have meganobz last more then 1 turn too. Nobz i came to the conclusion 5 man squads is perfect, even if wiped they kill a lot. last game against nids they cleared stealers and even did 7 damage to a scythed hierule. I barely won that game by T2 i was in the backfoot. I went with 5 man meganobz with gaz, almost got gaz sniped T1.. while gaz and friends manage to recoup losses(took a full genestealer+character +2 zoanthroapes and left the swarmlord at 2w) i don't think he is viable.. he is still too expensive and meganobz are not that hard to kill, way easier then nobz. What i think is the way is groups of 3 with boss in mega armor, 2 of those in a truck, one with the FNP enhancement makes it feel like a beastboss at 115pts and with sv2, all that is close to 240pts i think? I also think the beastboss with kunning trait is amazing to spam mortal. I have to say i no longer think skarbrad is worth a while and i rather bring a normal beast boss on squig for the 1cp heroic for 6M and charge rerolls. Skarbrad just wiffs too much to be worth mentioning(give him AP damn it!).

Ya probably depends on how your using them a bit too. I run manz in an army where majority of it is a melee threat so I'm all for my opponent focusing them because I'm just gonna pop ard as nails and watch them waste an unnecessary amount of firepower into a squad that is mostly there to do just that while the rest of my army does damage.

Will have to hard disagree on Mozrog. You need a killchoppa on squigboss to really be in the same ballpark damage wise and at that point for 10pts more you can get a character with a better invun and much higher damage ceiling on big things like knights.

Full melee armie with trucks support, up to 6 trucks. No idea how to do a viable list at the moment with out them. Their that good.

My issue with Moz is his AP, if he does not charge, there is a low chance of doing damage, if fighting big stuff, you will find most of the time between Sv3 or Sv2 with the low AP and few attacks is actually depending on his charge, with MW being in the WS3 bite. Having used him in most my games i seen this plenty of times, he either fumbles his attacks or the opponent makes the saves. To finish it, he also most of the time has to go through FNP. So the things he kill's are generally stuff i can use other tools to kill, but the things i want him to kill he just too unreliable. Anyway this is my point of view the difference to beastboss is it always does MW against the heavy stuff, it ignores their saves, it's not a lot of damage yes, but overall they do the same damage he is just more reliable, it also brings utility making my beast snagga charges more safe and heroic at 1cp is nothing to ignore too for 6'm anyway, maybe you have had more mileage with Moz, but opponent's i have faced showed me i need raw damage on the table, a brick ain't worth it if it is ignored.

Hmmm most my opponents are either shooty to the point they can pop 2 trucks easily or something like nids with shooting/melee, he generally play's at GT so it takes advantage of every little of my mistakes(almost sniped gaz), but i like it that way, improves my play. So he catalogues really quickly my threats. He is also in the same opinion of Moz, in his view, the character is good, but with out rerolls or other tools to fish the mortals and damage, he is just a brick. I am not saying he is bad though i think Moz has play with double beastboss on squig. But if i have to take one i take utility and reliability over big damage potential, because when Moz wiffs he wiffs big time.

For sure, it’s all just preference really. I just prefer the damage potential over reliability right now based on how we stack up to the big hitters.

I just have to say, I enjoy how many options we have right now. The index is powerful enough to do reasonably well against good competitive opponents, but you don't have to exploit some unintended interaction between rules to do so (nob bikers/green tide/loota star/buggy spam), you just play orks as they are intended to be played. Internal balance is decent enough that you can bring second tier strategies and still do well with them, especially if the opponent is doing the same. For the first time in a long time, it feels like we are playing the same game as others, and not just be some unmotivated developer's afterthought.
Sure, some armies are completely busted, but they will be taken down a notch eventually. 9th gave me confidence that GW will take care of the overperformers eventually.

Building lists and playing orks hasn't been this much fun for over a decade.

 Jidmah wrote:
I just have to say, I enjoy how many options we have right now. The index is powerful enough to do reasonably well against good competitive opponents, but you don't have to exploit some unintended interaction between rules to do so (nob bikers/green tide/loota star/buggy spam), you just play orks as they are intended to be played. Internal balance is decent enough that you can bring second tier strategies and still do well with them, especially if the opponent is doing the same. For the first time in a long time, it feels like we are playing the same game as others, and not just be some unmotivated developer's afterthought.
Sure, some armies are completely busted, but they will be taken down a notch eventually. 9th gave me confidence that GW will take care of the overperformers eventually.

Building lists and playing orks hasn't been this much fun for over a decade.

I'll certainly agree that we're in a good spot right now. There's only a few things that need changing *cough* Tankbustas *cough* and we'd be a major player at top tables.

There's a thread in general about changes people want for their armies that I posted in, so I'm curious to see if you guys share my thoughts on the matter.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I'll certainly agree that we're in a good spot right now. There's only a few things that need changing *cough* Tankbustas *cough* and we'd be a major player at top tables.

Well, there are a bunch of duds across the index, but for what it feels like the first since 5th we actually have sufficient amounts of decent datasheets to not care about those which are terrible.

There's a thread in general about changes people want for their armies that I posted in, so I'm curious to see if you guys share my thoughts on the matter.

I stopped contributing to general, as it's home of a community for people who do not play warhammer 40k and instead focus on hate GW for everything they do. I have no interest in engaging with those people or their badly informed and biased opinions.

1. Tankbustas are an absolute travesty. 5 models, pointed like Space Marines, and do absolutely no damage to tanks. Being forced to take rokkit pistols and the tankhamma is also an awful decision. Let them all take rokkits, let you take up to 10 of them, and make the tankhamma an up to 2 per 5 that does flat 3 damage instead of d3. And while we're at it, give them a once per game "Tankbusta Bombs" against a vehicle in melee. Make it a d6 per Tankbusta model and on a 2+ you deal a MW, up to a maximum of 6. Now they're a credible threat against the very things they're supposed to be designed to kill. They can stay at their current points cost if they get all of these buffs.

I disagree. Making tank bustas the rokkit spam unit again will just warp the codex again and makes them impossible to balance. Reducing the cost is the way to go, as they should be an expendable unit like burnas or lootas are. If tankhammers and rokkits are worthless, just turn them into ablative wounds that just cost the body and sometimes do something cool during a game.

2. Killsaws need either an extra attack or flat 3 damage. They're just not good currently.

Extra attack, yes (especially for pairs), flat 3 damage no. It's not something that fits in with the current game.
Instead I'd rather put something like anti-tank 4+ or devastating wounds on them, see marine PF/CF/TH handling.

3. Scrapjet needs another twin big shoota, it's literally got two on the model.

No argument here.

4. Lootas need fixing. I understand that hitting on a 4+ with full rerolls to hit is very strong for Orks, so increasing their BS might not be reasonable. You could leave them at 6+ base and just give them more shots. Either base 3 with rapid fire 1, leave them at base 2 but with rapid fire 2, or give them sustained hits 1. Or give them a Dakkawaaagh ability that gives them one of these bonuses during Waaagh turns if they turn out to be too much.

BS5+ with re-rolls wouldn't be that powerful though, especially since counter-play is easy. You only get 4+ when standing still and only when your opponent decides to move onto an objective that is within sight of them.
In any case, I feel like they should have a different ability both because it's anti-synergetic with the only leader worth joining them with (big mek) and it doesn't really relate to looting in any way.

5. Dakkajet should have 3 supa shootas, with the option of a 4th. Again, it's on the model (at least on the app), it should have them by default.

Dakkajet has 2 twin supa shootas (so 4) and the option for another twin supa shoota for a total of 6 supa shootas, exactly what the model has. The model has no place to put another pair of supa-shootas.

6. Make Waaagh a two turn thing again. Let us keep the extra S and A on melee weapons on the second turn. We rely suuuuper hard on the Waaagh for meaningful damage and it's often our only way of getting by against hard targets.

Disagree. Having to play around that one turn of Waaagh! requires skill and has been a core part of orks for all editions except 8th. Having the Waaagh! active for two battlerounds was ok when you couldn't activate it on your opponent's turn, but now it would just mean a flat buff to all melee units for all relevant turns. If big targets are a problem, solve the actual problem by giving us units to handle them, not by handing out blanket buffs with unforseen side-effects.
The only thing I would like to see is to allow us to call the Waaagh! on any command phase, not just the start of a battle round. Otherwise the Waaagh! feels lackluster when going second against an opponent with little long-range shooting.

 Jidmah wrote:
Snipped for post length

That's a fine and fair assessment, and on reflection you make some very good points. As a much more knowledgeable and experienced git than I, I'll happily bow before the bigger boss

I made these suggestions somewhat on a whim without thinking of the wider impact on the game and purely on a datasheet by datasheet level. The Waaagh change I suggested was 100% tacked on at the end, but came from the thought process of Orks getting a 1 turn army rule whereas most others get multiple turns of strong boosts.

I will dig my heels in about Tankbustas though on two specific points; capped at 5 models, and no Tankbusta Bombs. They need something that lets them do something against heavy tanks, supposedly their chosen target, before getting splatted and I think my suggestion for Tankbusta Bombs would be a reasonably balanced and fluffy way of achieving that. My comments about "let them all take rokkits" was mostly about how much rokkit pistols are a waste of ink more than anything else.

This was only ever intended as a discussion point, so I'm glad you've weighed in on it.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I made these suggestions somewhat on a whim without thinking of the wider impact on the game and purely on a datasheet by datasheet level. The Waaagh change I suggested was 100% tacked on at the end, but came from the thought process of Orks getting a 1 turn army rule whereas most others get multiple turns of strong boosts.

When you think about it, it's a super powerful rule though. It's more damage, a relevant and defensive buff and a speed increase all rolled into one and unconditionally applied to every single model you have on the table.
Other army rules might be more powerful, but cannot be used by the entire army.

I will dig my heels in about Tankbustas though on two specific points; capped at 5 models, and no Tankbusta Bombs. They need something that lets them do something against heavy tanks, supposedly their chosen target, before getting splatted

The capped at 5 part is dumb a solely done due to the box having a mono build nob, no argument here. 10 of them (including 2x hammers and 2x pistols) lead by a KFF mek seems like something worth bringing on paper if priced correctly.
"Does nothing against heavy tanks" I'd argue though. I recently got some actual play time out of them (2x5 in a trukk) because I was facing a weak player and brought weak units for that reason. They still do wound and hit any tank on 4s and for most targets even the rokkit pistols do, plus those re-roll wounds on top. Tank hammers also get to hit on 2+ against vehicles.
They can already throw two bomb squigs at their target, adding your tankbusta bombs on top does not seem to be a healthy amount of mortal wounds for a unit, though they totally should have the grenade keyword.

Assuming you can have unit of 10 tankbustas with no other changes to their gear, against a T12/3+ vehicle they would cause:
6 damage from rokkits
0-2 damage from pistols
~8 damage from squigs
~2 damage from tank hammers (~ 3 during Waaagh!)
~0 damage from close combat weapons (~1 during Waaagh!)
for a total of 16-18 damage, which can be increased to 18-20. Add a KFF mek who enables the grenade stratagem and re-rolls 1 to hit and it's enough to burry a knight.
In comparison, a unit of devastators with grav cannons (the closest thing they have to rokkits) roughly manages 15-18 damage under perfect conditions (standing still, oath of moment, cherub).

TL;DR: The unit's rules and equipment are fine, point costs and max unit size is the problem.

I think its pretty clear the resin Tankbusta kit is on the way out. What it gets replaced with, I can't say, but its either going to be completely different or moved to Legends come codex time.