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ccs wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Why is the zzap gun just one shot at BS5+?

Because that's been its stats for at least two editions now?

Sticking to bad rules just because they are old is not a good thing unless you are part of the completely disconnected dakka bubble.

 Jidmah wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Why is the zzap gun just one shot at BS5+?

Because that's been its stats for at least two editions now?

Sticking to bad rules just because they are old is not a good thing unless you are part of the completely disconnected dakka bubble.

On the BS5;
Look, you are an Ork player, who as far as I can tell primarily runs ORKS.
Long ago GW decided that ORKS have a poor BS. Good+ bs = Marines, average bs = Guard, poor bs = orks.
Within the Ork army Grots stood out as being better at shooting than the orks.
As such bs5 is the challenge that you have to account for with most shooty entries in the ork roster.
If your complaining about orky bs5? Well that ship sailed a looong time ago....
If you want to play a more accurate shooting army? Pivot to using Grots, bs4 units (they exist), or pick a different faction.

On 1 shot;
Yeah, the orky lascannon has a RoF of 1. So what?
You want a higher RoF? Pick a different weapon.

That logic falls flat in it's face when we are also supposed to be the volume army

So yeah, marines have the BS, but orks have the volume, shooting the equivalent of 4 shots to each of the marine

Your also simplifying a complex issue.. it's not BS that is the issue, that's not the complain.

The issue is the lack of volume, the slash number of shots from previous edition as well as Strg, the drop of dakka rule, and the fact that we don't exactly have much resilience and depend on numbers a lot, so our stuff kind either needs to get cheaper or our melee needs to compensate for for anaemic shooting.

The end result is we get pigeonholed into being strictly melee because we lack rules datasheets and tools to handle what other armies can do with shooting. Take also in consideration that the shooting game is massively overpowered versus melee..

So your comparison is like comparing potato's to oranges.

had a game recently where i brought 280 points of shooting, they managed around 10 to 12 wounds over 3 rounds, that's 4 wounds on average per round for 280pts, all perfect profiles for the guns btw.

take a look at the lootaz the amount of requirements just for them to shoot well it crazy.

I don't think any ork player is asking custodes level shooting or tau. We just want the shots we lost and Strg we need for most our platforms be viable. Take the buggies as example, you never see them in the tables at current points, cut them to 50 and you probably see them, but not for the DPS, they will take the role of frontline fodder like gretching to move block... that's how bad they are, their as much worth as a unit of gretchin, so they need to be absurdly cheap.

This also isn't considering the plethora of units and abilities/strats/enhancements that provide built in -1 to hit, which disproportionately impacts Ork shooting compared to other factions, to the point you basically shouldn't even bother rolling the dice in most instances since it's a full 50% decrease in accuracy barring grot shooting or buffed up units from Meks.

Ork shooting needs a good solid look as to how it's addressed within the confines of the 5+ BS framework and either actually make it so that it's consistent enough through volume OR we have to shift the fundamentals of this baseline BS to bring quality back in for our shooting. Given that they've fixed Ork movement to be normal again, I don't see it being weird to have BS4+ as the baseline for dedicated shooting units and having BS5+ more for the pistol and non-shooting focused units. We basically had a taste of this with Meks and Flash Gitz in the previous edition.

ccs wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Why is the zzap gun just one shot at BS5+?

Because that's been its stats for at least two editions now?

Sticking to bad rules just because they are old is not a good thing unless you are part of the completely disconnected dakka bubble.

On the BS5;
Look, you are an Ork player, who as far as I can tell primarily runs ORKS.
Long ago GW decided that ORKS have a poor BS. Good+ bs = Marines, average bs = Guard, poor bs = orks.
Within the Ork army Grots stood out as being better at shooting than the orks.
As such bs5 is the challenge that you have to account for with most shooty entries in the ork roster.
If your complaining about orky bs5? Well that ship sailed a looong time ago....
If you want to play a more accurate shooting army? Pivot to using Grots, bs4 units (they exist), or pick a different faction.

On 1 shot;
Yeah, the orky lascannon has a RoF of 1. So what?
You want a higher RoF? Pick a different weapon.

Your response to "the zzap gun is bad and needs an overhaul because it's lacking as a primary weapon for big tank" is literally "play something else"?

If you have nothing to contribute to a discussion, just don't post. You are literally the little kid at GW stores which pushes themselves into every discussion and starts talking about gretchin unprompted, despite not a single person giving a gak.

We get it, you play gretchin. Now shut up and let the grown-ups talk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Forceride wrote:
That logic falls flat in it's face when we are also supposed to be the volume army

So yeah, marines have the BS, but orks have the volume, shooting the equivalent of 4 shots to each of the marine

Your also simplifying a complex issue.. it's not BS that is the issue, that's not the complain.

The issue is the lack of volume, the slash number of shots from previous edition as well as Strg, the drop of dakka rule, and the fact that we don't exactly have much resilience and depend on numbers a lot, so our stuff kind either needs to get cheaper or our melee needs to compensate for for anaemic shooting.

The end result is we get pigeonholed into being strictly melee because we lack rules datasheets and tools to handle what other armies can do with shooting. Take also in consideration that the shooting game is massively overpowered versus melee..

So your comparison is like comparing potato's to oranges.

had a game recently where i brought 280 points of shooting, they managed around 10 to 12 wounds over 3 rounds, that's 4 wounds on average per round for 280pts, all perfect profiles for the guns btw.

take a look at the lootaz the amount of requirements just for them to shoot well it crazy.

I don't think any ork player is asking custodes level shooting or tau. We just want the shots we lost and Strg we need for most our platforms be viable. Take the buggies as example, you never see them in the tables at current points, cut them to 50 and you probably see them, but not for the DPS, they will take the role of frontline fodder like gretching to move block... that's how bad they are, their as much worth as a unit of gretchin, so they need to be absurdly cheap.

Well-written anaylis, full agree. Since my dread mob army has KMB all over the place, it's really an eye-opener how great this gun has become. From a joke option which was more likely to kill they wielder than the target, it has become an all-rounder mid-strength weapon that is decent against a great number of targets. Same goes for the rokkit launcha, with d3 shots and blast it's a versatile weapon that becomes a reliable threat for the sole reasons that you can easily bring a dozen of them without great cost.

Most guns in our codex will shoot twice on average over the course of a game. The rest of the game our units will either be out of range, out of sight or dead. If a gun that cannot easily be spammed, like the buggies' main guns or the zzap gun, average to at least one successful wound roll across those two shoting phases against its preferred target, that's just a worthless weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:
This also isn't considering the plethora of units and abilities/strats/enhancements that provide built in -1 to hit, which disproportionately impacts Ork shooting compared to other factions, to the point you basically shouldn't even bother rolling the dice in most instances since it's a full 50% decrease in accuracy barring grot shooting or buffed up units from Meks.

Ork shooting needs a good solid look as to how it's addressed within the confines of the 5+ BS framework and either actually make it so that it's consistent enough through volume OR we have to shift the fundamentals of this baseline BS to bring quality back in for our shooting. Given that they've fixed Ork movement to be normal again, I don't see it being weird to have BS4+ as the baseline for dedicated shooting units and having BS5+ more for the pistol and non-shooting focused units. We basically had a taste of this with Meks and Flash Gitz in the previous edition.

Honestly, I don't feel like -1 to hit is as big a problem in 10th. Most times you can play around it or just charge the stealthy unit and clobber it. And even though the boom-dakka snazzwagon isn't a great unit, it's overwatch has ruined many people's days even if it only hits on sixes, same is true for many other mid tier shooting units.

Forceride wrote:
That logic falls flat in it's face when we are also supposed to be the volume army

So yeah, marines have the BS, but orks have the volume, shooting the equivalent of 4 shots to each of the marine

Your also simplifying a complex issue.. it's not BS that is the issue, that's not the complain.

The issue is the lack of volume, the slash number of shots from previous edition as well as Strg, the drop of dakka rule, and the fact that we don't exactly have much resilience and depend on numbers a lot, so our stuff kind either needs to get cheaper or our melee needs to compensate for for anaemic shooting.

The end result is we get pigeonholed into being strictly melee because we lack rules datasheets and tools to handle what other armies can do with shooting. Take also in consideration that the shooting game is massively overpowered versus melee..

So your comparison is like comparing potato's to oranges.

had a game recently where i brought 280 points of shooting, they managed around 10 to 12 wounds over 3 rounds, that's 4 wounds on average per round for 280pts, all perfect profiles for the guns btw.

take a look at the lootaz the amount of requirements just for them to shoot well it crazy.

I don't think any ork player is asking custodes level shooting or tau. We just want the shots we lost and Strg we need for most our platforms be viable. Take the buggies as example, you never see them in the tables at current points, cut them to 50 and you probably see them, but not for the DPS, they will take the role of frontline fodder like gretching to move block... that's how bad they are, their as much worth as a unit of gretchin, so they need to be absurdly cheap.

personally I’d drop the 5+++ from the waaagh rule and add a dakka section as part of the army rule.
Something like units being led by a leader unit add +X attacks to rapid fire weapons in rapid fire range, and different leaders provide a different dakka bonus. So a pain boy could be dakka1 while a mek is dakka2 and a warboss dakka3, and ghaz would be dakka4.

So shoots boyz w/ pain boss would get 4 attacks in RF range.

It feels weird that ork shooting is just plain bad, and not bad, but good in volume.

johnpjones1775 wrote:

Forceride wrote:
That logic falls flat in it's face when we are also supposed to be the volume army

So yeah, marines have the BS, but orks have the volume, shooting the equivalent of 4 shots to each of the marine

Your also simplifying a complex issue.. it's not BS that is the issue, that's not the complain.

The issue is the lack of volume, the slash number of shots from previous edition as well as Strg, the drop of dakka rule, and the fact that we don't exactly have much resilience and depend on numbers a lot, so our stuff kind either needs to get cheaper or our melee needs to compensate for for anaemic shooting.

The end result is we get pigeonholed into being strictly melee because we lack rules datasheets and tools to handle what other armies can do with shooting. Take also in consideration that the shooting game is massively overpowered versus melee..

So your comparison is like comparing potato's to oranges.

had a game recently where i brought 280 points of shooting, they managed around 10 to 12 wounds over 3 rounds, that's 4 wounds on average per round for 280pts, all perfect profiles for the guns btw.

take a look at the lootaz the amount of requirements just for them to shoot well it crazy.

I don't think any ork player is asking custodes level shooting or tau. We just want the shots we lost and Strg we need for most our platforms be viable. Take the buggies as example, you never see them in the tables at current points, cut them to 50 and you probably see them, but not for the DPS, they will take the role of frontline fodder like gretching to move block... that's how bad they are, their as much worth as a unit of gretchin, so they need to be absurdly cheap.

personally I’d drop the 5+++ from the waaagh rule and add a dakka section as part of the army rule.
Something like units being led by a leader unit add +X attacks to rapid fire weapons in rapid fire range, and different leaders provide a different dakka bonus. So a pain boy could be dakka1 while a mek is dakka2 and a warboss dakka3, and ghaz would be dakka4.

So shoots boyz w/ pain boss would get 6 attacks in RF range.

I don't see how you're getting 6 shots from a 2 attack weapon with Rapid Fire 1 and a +1 boost to number of shots.

I also don't think firing four shots per member of a 20 man blob is a good idea-not when it kills a grand total of two MEQ, one Gravis, or 1.5 wounds to a TEQ.
It'd certainly be a damage boost, but the sheer amount of dice to roll would be annoying.

 JNAProductions wrote:

johnpjones1775 wrote:

Forceride wrote:
That logic falls flat in it's face when we are also supposed to be the volume army

So yeah, marines have the BS, but orks have the volume, shooting the equivalent of 4 shots to each of the marine

Your also simplifying a complex issue.. it's not BS that is the issue, that's not the complain.

The issue is the lack of volume, the slash number of shots from previous edition as well as Strg, the drop of dakka rule, and the fact that we don't exactly have much resilience and depend on numbers a lot, so our stuff kind either needs to get cheaper or our melee needs to compensate for for anaemic shooting.

The end result is we get pigeonholed into being strictly melee because we lack rules datasheets and tools to handle what other armies can do with shooting. Take also in consideration that the shooting game is massively overpowered versus melee..

So your comparison is like comparing potato's to oranges.

had a game recently where i brought 280 points of shooting, they managed around 10 to 12 wounds over 3 rounds, that's 4 wounds on average per round for 280pts, all perfect profiles for the guns btw.

take a look at the lootaz the amount of requirements just for them to shoot well it crazy.

I don't think any ork player is asking custodes level shooting or tau. We just want the shots we lost and Strg we need for most our platforms be viable. Take the buggies as example, you never see them in the tables at current points, cut them to 50 and you probably see them, but not for the DPS, they will take the role of frontline fodder like gretching to move block... that's how bad they are, their as much worth as a unit of gretchin, so they need to be absurdly cheap.

personally I’d drop the 5+++ from the waaagh rule and add a dakka section as part of the army rule.
Something like units being led by a leader unit add +X attacks to rapid fire weapons in rapid fire range, and different leaders provide a different dakka bonus. So a pain boy could be dakka1 while a mek is dakka2 and a warboss dakka3, and ghaz would be dakka4.

So shoots boyz w/ pain boss would get 6 attacks in RF range.

I don't see how you're getting 6 shots from a 2 attack weapon with Rapid Fire 1 and a +1 boost to number of shots.

I also don't think firing four shots per member of a 20 man blob is a good idea-not when it kills a grand total of two MEQ, one Gravis, or 1.5 wounds to a TEQ.
It'd certainly be a damage boost, but the sheer amount of dice to roll would be annoying.

I had big shoots profile in my head lol.

I will amend the previous post

As for rolling a lot of dice being annoying, if you find that annoying maybe orks and other horde armies aren’t your jam, and you should find a faction that fits you a bit better


Is 3 attacks for choppa boyz too many dice to roll?

That's fair. Jumbled wargear happens.

 JNAProductions wrote:
That's fair. Jumbled wargear happens.

But 8x4 shots is 32, big shoota is another 6, NOB w/ kombiweapon would be 3 more, for 41 shots, averaging 13 hits.
With a warboss it’s 8x6 for 48 plus 8 for a big shoota, plus 5 for kombi weapon, plus the warboss’ 5, you’re looking at 66 shots averaging 21 hits.

Giving our shooting some actual bite.

johnpjones1775 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
That's fair. Jumbled wargear happens.

But 8x4 shots is 32, big shoota is another 6, NOB w/ kombiweapon would be 3 more, for 41 shots, averaging 13 hits.
With a warboss it’s 8x6 for 48 plus 8 for a big shoota, plus 5 for kombi weapon, plus the warboss’ 5, you’re looking at 66 shots averaging 21 hits.

Giving our shooting some actual bite.

Do you really want to roll over a hundred dice for killing maybe two MEQ?

It's not the buff bit I don't support-it's the sheer amount of dice you'd have to roll to achieve it.

Better to give an accuracy buff while within half range or something, than just upping number of shots.

Also, not sure you want 5 shot Deffguns.

 JNAProductions wrote:

johnpjones1775 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
That's fair. Jumbled wargear happens.

But 8x4 shots is 32, big shoota is another 6, NOB w/ kombiweapon would be 3 more, for 41 shots, averaging 13 hits.
With a warboss it’s 8x6 for 48 plus 8 for a big shoota, plus 5 for kombi weapon, plus the warboss’ 5, you’re looking at 66 shots averaging 21 hits.

Giving our shooting some actual bite.

Do you really want to roll over a hundred dice for killing maybe two MEQ?

It's not the buff bit I don't support-it's the sheer amount of dice you'd have to roll to achieve it.

Better to give an accuracy buff while within half range or something, than just upping number of shots.

Also, not sure you want 5 shot Deffguns.

It’s horde army, I’m fine rolling a gak ton of dice for a horde army.

Rolling a gak ton of dice for marines is silly and stupid.

I'm not very familiar with the snagga range in game, but I feel like I'm missing something with the painboss. Is there any point to bringing one now that they changed the squad mechanics of squighog boyz?
Looking at the "Sawbonez" rule, it seems like the only use cases are Squigosaurs running solo, or the edges case of a character surviving a precision attack or a squad wipe.

Is running Mozrog or a Boss solo still viable?
Are the boost to FNP and the D3 returned models worth it anyway?

 DakkaHammer wrote:
I'm not very familiar with the snagga range in game, but I feel like I'm missing something with the painboss. Is there any point to bringing one now that they changed the squad mechanics of squighog boyz?
Looking at the "Sawbonez" rule, it seems like the only use cases are Squigosaurs running solo, or the edges case of a character surviving a precision attack or a squad wipe.

Is running Mozrog or a Boss solo still viable?
Are the boost to FNP and the D3 returned models worth it anyway?

Your gut instinct is correct, the Painboss currently is kinda pointless at the moment for our army. He's only able to lead Snagga Boyz who already have a 6+ FNP built in so it's not as efficient compared to regular boyz with a Painboy and the Beastboss on foot just gives much more relevant utility when it comes to both offense for the unit with them being able to hit on 2's but providing devastating wound output to the unit. Even for the grot orderly unit, bringing back D3 models once a game is pretty meh and won't be relevant in most cases since they tend to either live to krump things or get wiped out in one go so you won't likely be able to use it much.

Frankly, they need to revisit his datasheet altogether and give either some sort of "Dok Juice" ability to beef up Beast Snagga Boyz in some way that is different than the Beastboss (i.e. Lethal Hits or something) but at the cost of potentially inflicting mortal wounds upon the unit. OR they need to allow him to just flat out bring back D3 models per command phase or something alongside the 5+ FNP he provides.

I think running a solo Squigosaur boss is not ideal since he's become significantly less tanky now that they've lost the 4+ FNP and both him and Mozrog both have rules you miss out on if they aren't leading a unit, even if it's a min squad of 3, I think it's generally better they're in a unit than not now.

Interesting thoughts there. What do you think about running 10 beastnaggas with beasboss in a trukk, with an extra beasboss riding along? I'd find the extra dev wounds really helpful going into bigger stuff like knights. Makes it a 265pt unit but that could be a good trade to kill a land raider for example.

 PaddyMick wrote:
Interesting thoughts there. What do you think about running 10 beastnaggas with beasboss in a trukk, with an extra beasboss riding along? I'd find the extra dev wounds really helpful going into bigger stuff like knights. Makes it a 265pt unit but that could be a good trade to kill a land raider for example.

It's certainly an option, a Beastboss alone definitely has the punch to tip a combat against a vehicle in your favour. However, is probably be more inclined to have more bodies on the ground. Also, generally you're not taking Snaggas without taking a Beastboss to come with them, so you're eating into your cap of 3 Beastbosses.

Its also 300+ points once you include the trukk. At that point I think I'd rather have Nobz and a Warboss in a trukk, or double down and take 20 Snaggas in a BW with a Beastboss.

So it's certainly an option with some potential, but I overall think there's better choices. Ultimately, try it out and let us know how you get on

when the squigsaur boss was a thing, the painboss had play. Healing 3 from a tanking 9w model was nice, still he was expensive... currently? I rather bring another beastboss with snaggas.. actually pivoting into them for expendable killy models. But hey, if you make him work do tell! It's just 185pts for 16w with fnp 6 if i recall? add a truck and can use to pop tranports before nobs get involved. they also benefit from 3 detach's

Fair enough chaps, thanks, i'll give it a go anyway. I'm currently building snagga units, but not rewally used them before.

Can someone explain why the Kan klawz are weaker than a normal power klaw?

Well, for one they are a completely different weapon, and on top of that they do 3 damage instead of 2 which makes them better in many situations.

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, for one they are a completely different weapon, and on top of that they do 3 damage instead of 2 which makes them better in many situations.

never implied they were the same weapon.
It just doesn’t make sense for a large(ish) walker to have a lower S klaw than a nob leading a mob of boyz.

Yes it does.

A nob is not a puny space marine with a powerfist and a kan is not a dread. We are talking about a bunch of insane gretchin confined into a light walkers made from second rate scrap that wasn't good enough to build something better.

Kanz aren't "large" by any measure, they are the ork equivalent of imperial sentinels and aeldari war walkers.

What Jidmah said, Killa Kanz really are more on the lowest size scale of walkers and ever since they've started differentiating weapons to be more bespoke, they've generally had a lower strength scale compared to what Power Klaws normally had. If anything, they've improved in some measures since it used to be that they hit on 5's instead of 4's back in 8th edition.

Orcks taking name in Tacoma:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6P21e4zJSA

gretchin and kill rigs are high!

So..m orks only hit 1/3 of the time and no we you want 4× times the shooting ability. Yeaa, that's a great balance 😂

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
So..m orks only hit 1/3 of the time and no we you want 4× times the shooting ability. Yeaa, that's a great balance 😂

You what ya git? Speak up.. you sound like you were touched by a bad ork boy? Did he not scrap you good? Yu wanna another go? Though so ya git!

ahaha anyway, i liked that dread mob list 100 gretchin is wild!

@Forceride @Grimskul
Fair enough, hopefully GW revisits the painboss down the line, maybe when they get around to fixing all the "use a stratagem again" rules they broke in other armies

If I ever get around to trying the snagga detachment maybe I'll throw one into a block of 20 to walk up the midboard and distract from smaller beastboss delivery units. Seems like a reasonable place for the "skrag every stash" enhancement too.

I've been using the Snagga detachment for a bit and generally I'm a fan. It's definitely not the strongest detachment in the book though.

I think that the footslogging block of 20 is the only place the Painboss has any kind of niche, regardless of detachment. And even then I think I prefer grots for my on foot objective grabbers. It's hard to compete with how little real estate a unit of grots takes up both on the board and in the list.

oh defo, my grots have been heros more then once.. from a single w on a knight to making my opponent wasting shots.

The amount of times my opponents falls for shooting them, when their obvious baiting shots is crazy

You can't say no to 12w at 40pts, that's still 12 shots that need to go through.

Forceride wrote:
Orcks taking name in Tacoma:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6P21e4zJSA

gretchin and kill rigs are high!

Pointless acknowledging that win he cheated almost the entire tournament with battle wagon transport rules, firing deck, character toughness and he had prior issues of cheating rolls while on camera. Head judge wanted to red card him and got overruled. So it's best to ignore that win like GW should have done.

Regarding the pain boss I think the only way to fix him at his current point cost and rules is to male him lone operative and make his snaggaboy buff into an aura. It would make him useful.