Valiants are bad, but I'm sure it's satisfying when that harpoon connects. It's basically a ghetto Railgun! On a more serious note, would a major points drop make the Valiant worth taking? Like 50-60 points? That flamer is pretty nasty business (although D2 weapons are bad against some stuff they do work well against others) but it has to be up close and personal to use it. Ditto with the harpoon. With the short range of its guns, it should be cheaper than a Castellan, but would a lower cost be enough to save it?
I think when the codex drops we need buffs at both ends. Redo of the weapon profiles to make them more relevant and we also need to stop being killed by units trading up sometimes nearly 3x their worth.
The harpoon probably needs to ignore invulnerable saves or at least be more than a single shot. Maybe give us a cool melee profile with it. One issue with the dominus class that makes no sense is there are Acastas and Ceratus chassis that are bigger, taller etc that don’t have the same penalties to movement/melee they decided. That needs axed too.
Things can get a little salty when telemons are half the price of a knight and seem to be more tanky even with less wounds. We pay a penance for the obscuring rule and don’t get much in return. I’d love if the play testers tried some of the matches I’ve faced where you lose a knight T1 with GW obscuring terrain sometimes 2. The 2 way mirror idea is the worst thing about this edition. Even more than the wacky bodyguard rules
The Valiant toys are too cool to be let down with bad rules. But like zerg says. In that one game in 20 that the harpoon manages to actually hit something and not bounce off an invulnerable save it’s truly
Glorious
More than anything, I think that Knights need better ways to play the mission. The inability to score secondaries and the primary-tertiary they added to the new missions is crippling. Other stuff is needed to keep up with the power creep, but we can be as killy as Tau and if we can't score points it just doesn't matter.
Totally pure Imperial Knights has trouble picking a third secondary, that's true. However, you can bring a Rogue Trader and up to 30 Voidsmen in a Vanguard detachment without losing ObSec on the Armigers since they're all Agents of the Imperium. You can spend 3 CP and 180-300 points to get all the action infantry you could ever need. The only thing you can't do is use the Freeblade army of renown.
My army doesn't use that particular tech, but I can vouch that a reliable third secondary makes all the difference. I am also seriously considering dropping my aircraft for an Inquisitor to open my objective options even more.
If Imperial Knights get a big release, they should really get some huscarls, men-at-arms, planetary defense force, or drover conscripts. In the lore, Titans and Knights don't fight unsupported. Knight armies need more ways to engage with the game. It'd make Knights more fun to play against too, since it'd be less of a list-building-check for your anti-tank.
Agree something like that would be great. Avoiding the 2CP/3CP detachment costs for soup would go a long way. Especially since most of our strats are overcosted as well.
I was describing this to someone yesterday actually. We have a few 2 and 3CP strats that are 50% dice rolls to do nothing lol. Feels bad there.
Regarding secondaries it’s great that yield no ground is an auto pick but it’s in the same category as stranglehold - arguably one of the secondaries that we should be going for reliably anyway.
When you factor we only get access to 3 of the 5 secondary trees, as we cannot do shadow operation or warpcraft options it regularly means a game is lost before a dice has been rolled.
I wonder if emailing GW to highlight these problems is worth a punt. Because maybe they haven’t thought about this much. And I imagine our codex is so far away that there is time to save it
U02dah4 wrote: Yes but the comedy when a knight explodes is well worth the risk
You also have to add in the kill titans mission which is an auto 15 for out opponent's
Actually I've found that vs. Knights it's better to take Bring It Down, as that one gives you points for the Armigers as well as the big guys. Still an auto 15, but easier to score potentially.
I haven't had huge success with the Castellan in test games. I have mostly been playing against Thousand Suns and Custodes. The Castellan is great against vehicles out in the open and it does kill things when it can see them, but I have also failed to kill a 10-man unit of Tzangors with it. Right now my best idea is three Raven Magaera backed with a small patrol of MSU Metallica for screening and actions. This is a calculated gamble that Tau will mean fewer people are running really big T-8 vehicles as that is one of the Magaera's weaknesses, at least in shooting.
Magaera (Armor of Sainted Ion, Master of the Trials, Knight of Iron Cog)
Magaera (Banner Inviolate, Knight of Iron Cog)
Magaera (Landstrider, Knight of Iron Cog)
Interesting. I like some of the utility pieces you have there. Admech and Magaera points hikes does mean you get less bang for your buck.
The 5CP tax just to do it really is outrageous though.
Your warlord trait and relic choices surprised me though. Armour of the sainted ion and Landstrider are staples but the other 2 were curious choices. You find they work for you?
I should emphasize that they are theoretical. The Master of the Trial lets you ignore AP -1, which seems like a really good idea for the 2+ save Knight. The Banner Inviolate gives a 6" bubble of Raven Knights reroll 1's to hit in melee. As much as possible, the plan is to deathball one flank or the center with very fast-moving Knights that still shoot, get the benefits of Canticles for a. light cover, b. reroll a hit/wound roll, c. roll an extra d6 and drop the lowest for advance/charge. Both Raven and Metallica have some really nice utility/movement abilities, and the Magaera are very good into Custodes. Tau I have no answer to other than bum rush them and hope they can't kill all of me before I can force melee.
The 5 CP is absolutely worth it. You'd pay a CP for any of the Canticle effects individually, so getting them all is a steal. You'd also pay 2 CP for all the utility infantry.
If I get another Knight, it'll probably be a Castellan for variety's sake. Here's an idea I've been kicking around for a "Pure" Knight list, with Voidsmen as I mentioned earlier.
I lose ObSec on the Armigers, which does hurt, but I keep 1 ObSec and gain it on the infantry. I also have better backfield holders with the Dunecrawlers. Man is it CP tight though. I expect a lot of turn 1s to go Invocation of Machine Vengeance, Full Tilt the Gallant, Flanking Maneuver and Order of Companions the Castellan, pile everything into combat and hope for the best.
I’m not disagreeing with you per say but the problem is when we start with like 5 CP and have no regen to speak of and a load of 2CP and 3CP strats its really rough
Then you face custodes spamming god tier 1CP strats and seeming to have unlimited CP it feels sad
The only 2 CP strat I ever use is Full Tilt, and even then in less than half my games. I don't use any 3 CP strats (though, as I've said, Order of Companions on a Castellan is the best use of CP in the game).
The only ones I use consistently are Rotate Ion Shields and Machine Spirit Resurgent. I use Flanking Maneuver, Rolling Thunder, Pack Tactics, and Pack Hunters each in about half my games. Those are all 1 CP.
Shadow's Reach is really handy, but I don't actually have to use it; I just tell my opponent about it and it forces him to move awkwardly around its threat range. Crimson Wall and Horrors at Bay are also nice to have in your back pocket, but will rarely come up. Kolossi Eternal is also hypothetically a good deal, but I've never actually had a clean opportunity for it.
I think Freeblade Lances are good, and while you're encouraged to load up on Relics/Traits, they have 2 good strats. Strength from Exile is good on Gallants/Crusaders/Castellans that get most of their value in one phase. Brothers and Sisters in Burden can be clutch maybe once a game.
Beyond that, the few remaining decent strats are tied to bad units/factions, so aren't worth talking about. If anything, Knights are CP hungry for Command Re-rolls since it's so important to smoothe out swingy nature of such concentrated power on so few rolls.
The list seems perfectly reasonable. JD Carter just came in 6th at Team Battle Brothers 40k using a Raven Castellan, Maegera, Warglaives and Moiraxes. That's quite good in the 2022 rules.
On that note, I didn't point out that Matthew Myburg pulled 9th at Cape Town Throw Down, which is a pretty large event, with a weird custom house list. It was Sanctified Armour and Hounds of War, built around one Crusader and a bunch of Warglaives. Sanctified Armour seems super niche and may have been a personal pick, since the other top lists weren't psychic heavy (there was one Grey Knights at 6th place). At the same tournament, Anton Smit came in 11th with Metalica and one kitted out Raven Crusader.
Instead of ignoring Invulnerable saves, they should have made a modifier to them. How much more balanced would even a -1 invulnerable Save be on anti tank weapons?
Oh I’ll check that out on BCP I didn’t realise. Well done to him. I find that in some of the tournaments that have lighter terrain a castellan is beast mode - but with vehicles going into hiding in my area, and the prevalence of a sensible amount of terrain....he’s a less glamorous addition.
I was arguing with a friend the other day. Melee infantry has it so easy. 10x more attacks than us. Able to just ghost through terrain easy breezy with nothing we can often do about it. Ez bake Advance and charge, + to wound and able to spike units worth under 200 points to kill things that are 5-600.
Hopefully we get flying or teleporting knights with AP8 flat 32 damage stubbers at this rate
I had 2 games with IK today, one versus Custodes, and second against Slaanesh. Both ended up in defeat.
The game against Slaanesh at least was interesting because it taught me the powerful synergies a Slaanesh list can get between the various HQ units. A Contorted Epitome covering Be'lakor and 2 otther demon princes with her skills is a powerful combo. It did save Be'Lakor from an angry Gallant about to kill it.
On the other hand the game against Custodes was an exercise in frustation. The amount of 2+ reroll attacks, plus the innate durability of Custodes made it not fun. Add the new codex tactics that make the game a convoluted mess... let me just say that if I had been playing with a stranger I would have quitted the game on account of suspected cheating. I'm sure my friend did not cheat, but when he started explaining that the general rule was X, but then the army had another rule that allowed exception Y because of the sub-faction, but then the captain could change sub-faction because exception Z... probably you all will see where this is going.
IK needs a new codex to keep up, on the other hand I'm afraid that 32 damage stubbers might not be a joke.
I've had pretty good success against Custodes. The Magaera is awesome against them. None of my games have been a blowout, and I have won and lost games but they were usually close. The exception is when they are Shadow Wardens. The reroll wound rolls against Characters, fight last relic, and -1 attack in melee add up to a very difficult game.
Typically Custodes are running a lot of bikes with Salvo Launchers followed by some very hard-hitting melee characters covered by their bodyguards, with some infantry (sisters or Custodian Guard) holding their back field. Don't deploy on the front line against them, use their lack of range against them. Force them to spend a turn maneuvering and then use your speed to toe into the cover they are using to hide something you want to kill. I typically kill 6-7 bikes in the first turn of shooting, depending on dice results. That can blunt the return fire and from there it is a matter of surviving the counter-charge from the melee characters and remaining bikes. It will not be a close game, but it isn't a devastating loss either.
I suspect there isn't much to discuss since it will become outdated once the new codex releases. Speaking of which, maybe a new thread for the new codex? What should it be named?
Should be "Now with less Stomp" since they are giving the melee weapons a sweep profile (by their own admission to reduce how much the Knights just tapdance on people).
In one of the psychic awakening books Be'lakor spirited Kolossus, the homeworld of House Raven, into the warp or something. My understanding is that Raven still exists, they are just trying to recover their planet.
The second pledge doesn't seem to be very good unless the baby knights are still ObSec. Otherwise you are one guardsman away at the critical point from losing honor.
Miguelsan wrote: The second pledge doesn't seem to be very good unless the baby knights are still ObSec. Otherwise you are one guardsman away at the critical point from losing honor.
M.
Seeing it refers to models with this ability that are obsec already you can bet quite a bit there's obsec units and armigers are most likely candinates still.
Also, you would not lose Honor unless you abandoned an objective during your turn. The enemy can take them away from you on their turn and it doesn't matter. The loss comes when you hold fewer objectives at the end of your turn than you held at the beginning of your turn.
This Oath synergizes very well with the Imperial Knight secondary and Stranglehold, which I believe are exclusive to each other. The extra CP a turn seems pretty big too. I was originally down on these abilities, but they seem pretty good at second look. It will come down to what the others are, and what restrictions they impose.
bmsattler wrote: Also, you would not lose Honor unless you abandoned an objective during your turn. The enemy can take them away from you on their turn and it doesn't matter. The loss comes when you hold fewer objectives at the end of your turn than you held at the beginning of your turn.
Between this and the things that have been previewed, I'm thinking I need to dig out and finish working on all my Knight stuff. Maybe try to "get ahead of the meta" a little bit.
bmsattler wrote: In one of the psychic awakening books Be'lakor spirited Kolossus, the homeworld of House Raven, into the warp or something. My understanding is that Raven still exists, they are just trying to recover their planet.
Too many books to keep up with. That's... Fine though. As long as Raven sticks around, it's all good. Glad they didn't outright invalidate them.
Another rules preview up on WarCom - again offering loads of ways to buff armigers.
Bit disappointing, I don't mind a couple of the little guys but feel they really want you to bring loads of them with the array of rules that effect them.
WisdomLS wrote: Another rules preview up on WarCom - again offering loads of ways to buff armigers.
Bit disappointing, I don't mind a couple of the little guys but feel they really want you to bring loads of them with the array of rules that effect them.
Gotta sell those models. But actually a nice combined-arms approach is kinda cool for Knights.
Based on what they did for Chaos Knights, you'll probably be able to ally in a freeblade knight in a Superheavy Aux detachment and not break the Space Wolves pure rules like Doctrines or Armor of Contempt. The knight itself probably won't have access to warlord traits or relics.
bmsattler wrote: Based on what they did for Chaos Knights, you'll probably be able to ally in a freeblade knight in a Superheavy Aux detachment and not break the Space Wolves pure rules like Doctrines or Armor of Contempt. The knight itself probably won't have access to warlord traits or relics.
Elsewhere it was said that Knights/Armiger become agents and so are usable in an SM/SoB/IG army.
We might also want to come up with a catchy title for a new tactics thread for the new book. Something like, "Imperial Knights 9E Tactics: Stompy Robots Gonna Stomp". Okay, actually that was terrible, but I'm sure we can figure out something better.
Nids was months ahead of release. Good hard working leakers
Now, on the cusp of the official previews this weekend and we haven’t had a single blurry page to speak of
Leakers these days I tell you. No stamina
Its most annoying
I'm holding out hope that they have made IK & CK quite different instead of just being spikey or smooth reflections of each other.
Chaos knights have a bigger model range as they get all our models (other than perceptor) plus a couple of different medium and a couple of different small knights and the additional weapon options they confer. They then get some very powerful indiviual buffs and some great stacking aura debuffs.
So I'm hoping that we compensate for that by having more layered army buffs and rules and possible slightly different datasheets given we are less customisable - different datasheet is unlikely I know but otherwise I think Chaos may just be IK+
Well I am holding out hope we have ways to improve our base weapons.
Avenger Gatling Cannon - pants, nothing else to say.
Conflagration flamer - 3D6, much the same issues as above. No change somehow, really thought they would update it
Harpoon - what a misstep, should of had a melee profile. I cant believe such a cool looking weapon has such meh rules. If anything was deserving of an ignores invulnerable rule - this thing is it. If Tau can get one at better range on a cheaper chassis...i dunno. Even nerfing the damage would be acceptable to accommodate it as I can count on the hand of a blind Simpsons carpenter character how many things in 4 years the harpoon has killed. It always bounces off an invulnerable save or whiffs.
Volcano cannon - D3 makes me nervous, will depend on your opponents by my area is plagued with good invulnerable saves and you could see this gun do nothing. The damage wasn't the issue it was getting wounds through. Will depend on access to rerolls and a cold eradication type mechanic
Plasma - 2D6 Still....I get nervous with that so hopefully a way to make it consistent, nice damage changes though. Overall positive though
Rapid fire battle cannon - 72" range, can someone tell me why GW makes guns have this now. Assuming we are all using even half sensible levels of terrain, who can line up a shot even remotely close to the limits on this. Taking a Paladin is weird (long range gun and melee combo) and I am not sure if a Crusader platform warrants this. It got buffed but suffers from random shots still.
The thermal changes are nice, they don't feel too flashy but they are buffs so got to focus on the positives I guess. Hoping the humble Magaera can still hang and isn't restricted by keywords
A friend did point out something funny though as I have a bit of chaos envy with their fun new kits and options.
Their wardogs gatling wounds our knights on 4's
but our big gatling gun wounds their dogs on 5's lol
Ideasweasel wrote: Well I am holding out hope we have ways to improve our base weapons.
Avenger Gatling Cannon - pants, nothing else to say.
Conflagration flamer - 3D6, much the same issues as above. No change somehow, really thought they would update it
Harpoon - what a misstep, should of had a melee profile. I cant believe such a cool looking weapon has such meh rules. If anything was deserving of an ignores invulnerable rule - this thing is it. If Tau can get one at better range on a cheaper chassis...i dunno. Even nerfing the damage would be acceptable to accommodate it as I can count on the hand of a blind Simpsons carpenter character how many things in 4 years the harpoon has killed. It always bounces off an invulnerable save or whiffs.
Volcano cannon - D3 makes me nervous, will depend on your opponents by my area is plagued with good invulnerable saves and you could see this gun do nothing. The damage wasn't the issue it was getting wounds through. Will depend on access to rerolls and a cold eradication type mechanic
Plasma - 2D6 Still....I get nervous with that so hopefully a way to make it consistent, nice damage changes though. Overall positive though
Rapid fire battle cannon - 72" range, can someone tell me why GW makes guns have this now. Assuming we are all using even half sensible levels of terrain, who can line up a shot even remotely close to the limits on this. Taking a Paladin is weird (long range gun and melee combo) and I am not sure if a Crusader platform warrants this. It got buffed but suffers from random shots still.
The thermal changes are nice, they don't feel too flashy but they are buffs so got to focus on the positives I guess. Hoping the humble Magaera can still hang and isn't restricted by keywords
A friend did point out something funny though as I have a bit of chaos envy with their fun new kits and options.
Their wardogs gatling wounds our knights on 4's
but our big gatling gun wounds their dogs on 5's lol
#JusticeForTheAVG
I feel you, I know Chaos Knights haven't had the best of runs but this is....a bit much in terms of imbalance. I love the new rules and new models they are getting, it just seems like Imperial stuff is fairly lack luster it seems all about buffing armigers....which you have less choice in using and customizing, on tops of their honor rules being fairly bland AND hard to keep up. Outside of point costs theres no downsides to taking the chaos stuff, its active all the time and you can even change it on the fly. The Imperial stuff seems to punish you for the possibility of getting rubbish rules and forces you to take weaker models. Maybe the royal court will be better but can you really compete with +1 in to movement when the other guy has +1A? Even in the imperial book you get a regen wound vs that 1" move (and yes I am feeling gatling envy from the war dogs).
Imperial Knights seem to have a much stronger mission game. They can do actions while moving/shooting and get a number of serious buffs to the Armigers that let them impact the game more. At the same time, you need the big knights to make the little knights work. If one of the two Oaths they didn't spoiler is a +1 to hit with ranged, that would be amazing. We've had the Chaos Knight codex spoilered so its easy to focus on its strengths, but the Imperial Knight codex was written by the same folks. I am at least willing to wait and see what they give us!
bmsattler wrote: Imperial Knights seem to have a much stronger mission game. They can do actions while moving/shooting and get a number of serious buffs to the Armigers that let them impact the game more. At the same time, you need the big knights to make the little knights work. If one of the two Oaths they didn't spoiler is a +1 to hit with ranged, that would be amazing. We've had the Chaos Knight codex spoilered so its easy to focus on its strengths, but the Imperial Knight codex was written by the same folks. I am at least willing to wait and see what they give us!
I can see that, and Im still holding out hope. It just *currently* isn't looking all that hot. I guess im also not a fan of "having" to take armigers (I have like 8 big knights). My only concern is a lot of the dual releases lately have had one clear winner and one clear loser (ie Genestealers/Custodes, Tson/GKs, etc)
After reading the Goonhammer review, I see decently strong things but nothing back-breaking like pre-nerf Harlequins was. My biggest concern is whether an army of giant targets that can't hide will last long in the Thunderdome of 9th edition 40k. GW have certainly given it the good college try, as there are lots of durability tricks, but are they enough? I guess we'll find out soon enough, eh?
I think that two big knights and 7 or so Armigers is the way to go. You can get some serious shooting done and throw a Warglaive onto a center objective each turn while making it ridiculously hard to kill.
The Goonhammer review was really thorough, so I've done some theory crafting. I agree that the Knight Oaths are generally going to be Defend the Realm and either Refuse No Challenge or Lay Low the Tyrants. In practice, I anticipate the Honor mechanic won't be very important.
The bottom line is that the Knight mono-faction rules are:
+1 CP per turn (Defend)
either +1 to hit on the first round of melee (Refuse), OR re-roll one hit or wound roll when shooting or fighting (Tyrants)
The Virtuous effects are too difficult to achieve for inconsequential payout, and serve instead as a win-more to close out games. You're already trying to score Hold More and Stranglehold, so Defend the Realm will provide an Honor unless the game's already going South. That Honor will counteract the occasional Troth from Tyrants (fail to kill 2 units per turn) or Refuse (fall back). That being said, becoming Shameful is disastrous as it disables a lot of synergies like Bondsman abilities.
Speaking of, here summarized; Each Knight targets one Armiger within 6", it gains -1D taken and one of the following:
Gallant/Crusader: +1WS/BS
Paladin: rr1s to hit&wound
Warden: counts as 10 for objective
Errant: advance and charge, +1" to both
Knights upgraded with points to be Exalted Court (which you will do for most Knights) can mark two Armigers with Bondsman abilities instead. Preceptors have their own Litany thing going on, but the fact that it triggers on a 3+ really dissuades me.
There's also been significant changes to how the Knight Lance rule refunds Detachment cost. "If the detachment contains at least one Questoris Class model or three Armigers, you get 3CP back, while if you have either three Questoris Class models or 6+ Armigers accompanying at least one TITANIC unit, you get the full 6CP refunded."
All that said, here I am still pursuing my combined AdMech and Knight army.
Spoiler:
House Raven Super Heavy Detachment
Knight Errant, Forgemaster, ~450 [WLT: Ion Bulwark; Relic: Helm Dominatus maybe?; Iron Cog -1CP]
3 Armiger Warglaives, Meltaguns, 450 [Knight of the Iron Cog -1CP]
3 Knight Moirax ~480 [Knight of the Iron Cog -1CP]
My army got literally stronger, but it's soured by the knowledge of the opportunity cost. Plus the new Knight Lance rules literally break the army at 1500pts, which was my favourite game size.
I plan to go with the boring Forgemaster Exalted Court, which provides -1 damage while the Knight is wholly within its deployment zone. This is entirely to prevent my lynch-pin unit from dying on turn 1 if I go second. I like the threat of turn 1 charging two Warglaives, but it may be the case that the Paladin's range and more versatile buff are better. I'm also keeping in mind that the next GT will likely reduce starting CP to 6 and instead gain 2 per turn. I use 5, which leaves 1 to reserve the Vanguard to score actions. There's several things I'd like to pick up, but can't.
Surprising that no one has updated the Knights into news and rumors section, after all, there's plenty of reviews available in YouTube. I've done some digging and the new codex has a lot of potential in new edition. Here's my initial list;
Secondaries
- engage on all fronts
- to the last
- the new option of shadow operations
Chivalric (the new doctrine system)
- defend the realm (t1-4 +1cp, t5 obsec)
- lay low the tyrants (t1-4 rerolls, t5 auto 6s)
Tactics;
The helverins hold backfield objectives and provide firesupport, the warglaive move in the middle of board and does action (shadow operations). The errant and the paladin play aggressive and move midfield, supporting the warglaive and engage on all fronts. The castellan provide firesupport whenever needed.
CP allocation (12 + 5 + 5, during the course of game)
-4cp x 5 turns calculated firing (castellan ranged attacks causes damage as mortal wounds on a wound roll of 6)
- 2cp for the taranis stratagem (destroyed knight return to game with 3w remaining)
So, how does this look like? It's mostly based on the models I own, so perhaps not the most optimal load out. The CP spent on the castellan is absolutely bonkers, but essentially those attacks are meant to deal with tough targets with invulnerable save. As for the durability, taranis have 6+++ against non-mortals, and mechanicus house has more wounds and regeneration. On top of that, castellan has 4++ against ranged attacks, and -1 dmg. That's a mortarion-level toughness..
I'm really disappointed that no knight unit got a -1D. Dreadnoughts get it, Wraith units get it, demons get it... yet only armigers got a -1D and it's conditional. What's the reasoning GW? 24 wounds that melt like an ice cream under the sun are too strong for the current meta?
I wish I spent as much time and money painting my little guys as i did my bigger knights.
The book has quite a lot of side grades and nerfs to wade through initially which i think put me in a bit of a tilt. (can cover them specifically but we are all probably aware of what they are)
I am still quite keen to have a play about with some of the combos though. I think focusing on the positives is probably the best course of action.
We can play secondaries now! In theory at least. no longer do we pick 2/3 passable ones and 1 that we have no chance of achieving.
I would have liked more defensive buffs but the DZ layered buffs we get might be enough. Against non tau players. And if you are unfortunate enough to find yourself playing tau you'll just have to consolidate yourself with the fact he probably smells of fish and or has no friends since hes playing tau.
Mechanicum again for me, Krast and Raven looking a lot less appealing. And whilst I would have liked a true 6+++ in Taranis (rather than the arbitrary no mortals) I think the extra wounds this will bring might be vital to stop being sniped so will be trying them first.
Our book isn't flashy, other factions just get given stuff. We have to fight for it. But the trade off is hopefully our book survives a complete rewrite balance passes ala admech etc. That alone will be a positive it it comes to pass.
But I am keen to try out some of the synergies and combos. Looks like I will be starting with Taranis (mine are painted as and a faction loyal to my heart)
I think the Castellan is a trap. It seems very slow and hard to maneuver into line of sight of something you want to kill. Perhaps if it was constantly going into Strategic Reserves and coming in with better fire lanes. I think the Taranis combo is cute, but not something I would want to bank on.
Obviously Armigers are pushed, but only if you have some big knights to back them up. I actually really like the Freeblade Lance. The ability to mix and match the Imperalis and Mechanicus offices is fun, and they get some unique stratagems that are -really- good.
The Paladin is suddenly interesting, not because I like the RFBC but the reroll 1s to hit and wound it can give Armigers. Its also very strong in melee like most Questoris knights and provides a solid threat of counter-charge if they push into the middle. I'm just not sure how Knights deal with the strategy of kill the big knights first and the Armigers get a lot less nasty afterward.
One thing that Imperials have over Chaos is the ability to do mortal wounds. I believe there is a relic helm that can turn 6's to wound in melee into mortals equal to the damage of the weapon, and of course there is the Mechanicus stratagem that does the same for ranged. The two ways of increasing your 6s to wound are the Taranis warlord trait (better if you can get to Virtuous) and get to Virtuous with Lay Low the Tyrants Oath. Freeblades can also kill a monster/vehicle/character and spend 1 CP to activate the Virtuous ability for any oath for the rest of the game. I like this ability on a Helverin for the low CP and high rate of D3 firepower, and on an Errant with the relic helm. The Helverin can also benefit from rerolls to wound from a Paladin to increase the odds of rolling 6s.
I think Helverin's also benefit the most from the Helm of the Bastard relic for +1 to wound. The relic also lets you give the same bonus to another Armiger nearby as a Bondsman bonus, which would also be another source of -1 damage. You could combine this on a Helverin unit of 2 that's getting the freeblade trait Hunter of Beasts for +1 to hit monsters/vehicles and +1 damage vs. titanic to really mess something like a Stormsurge up.
For my tenative list, I think I would have a Preceptor and a Paladin in a Freeblade Lance with 2 units of 2 Helverins and three Warglaives. I would hang back and try to shoot things to death while controlling my half of the board and firing a Warglaive per turn into the middle to score stranglehold and possibly Renew the Oaths secondaries. I have found that when I try to rush the opponents they almost universally have the ability to destroy me. This style of hanging back and shooting stuff to death to let me push mid-late game has worked better for me personally.
I believe that Cawl's Wrath is Heavy 2d6, Str 8, AP -4, flat 3 damage, no overcharge. It basically gives you the damage from the standard Plasma Decimator at -1 Str but no risk of mortals.
Endless Fury is Heavy 1d6+12, Str 6, AP -3, Damage flat 2. It gives you 1d6 extra shots and a point of AP.
I believe that Helverin's are very good at shooting, and still count as 5 models+ObSec for holding objectives. They just aren't as good at taking an objective off of an enemy as the Warglaive.
bmsattler wrote: I think that two big knights and 7 or so Armigers is the way to go. You can get some serious shooting done and throw a Warglaive onto a center objective each turn while making it ridiculously hard to kill.
You can go 2-7 if you bring 2 Questoris instead of a Tyrant. Tight squeezing here.
Both bondsmanned, so you can buff 4 armigers. Bring Dominius helm thing, and you can buff 1 extra armiger per turn.
I believe that the Dominatus Helm also permanently upgrades the Armiger with the Bondsman ability until someone puts a different Bond on it. So you can put it on an Armiger and then fire and forget without having to keep it near the big knight to continually upgrade it each turn.
I wonder if house Terryn is still viable, I feel like the Imperial Allegiance is a bit shafted compared to the mechanicus one. Getting up close and personal is a winning proposition in 9th at least and they seem to be capable of doing that
A uhhh friend of mine has a few lances of house Terryn painted knights and she wants to field them as they are (plus a fully painted and moded King Tybalt
Griffith seems like the go-to on the Imperialis side of things; not really sure on the Mechanicus side. Raven seems good, but Taranis and Krast both seem decent also. My Knights are painted in custom colors so I can run them as whatever I want to!
This is a new Codex list that I am contemplating. It is based on 2 Errants and 7 Armigers, and uses House Raven to allow for advance, shoot and charge.
++ Super-Heavy Detachment (Imperium - Imperial Knights, 9 CP) 1995 points ++
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Household Choice: Questor Mechanicus, House Raven
Oaths: Defend the Realm, Lay Low the Tyrants
+ Stratagems +
1 CP Knight Baron
2 CP Heirlooms of the Household
+ Lord of War +
Knight Errant [480pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Reaper Chainsword, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Revered Knight; Princeps
Knight Errant [480 pts]: Character, Knight Baron: Ion Bulwark; Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Sanctuary, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Reaper Chainsword; Master of Lore (Wisdom of Nobility)
2x Armiger Helverins, Heirloom: The Bastard’s Helm [310pts]
3x Armiger Warglaives [435pts]
2x Armiger Warglaives [290pts]
+++
Idea: 2x Knight Errants who can affect 4 Warglaives and 1 Errant, given Wisdom of Nobility and Princeps. They are then able to advance & charge and also shoot (due to the household trait). This means that they are fast, allowing them to get good shooting angles and charges, and generally should be active in all phases. Both Errants have a couple of extra wounds from Mechanicus and defensive Relics/Traits, but having two Errants gives redundancy if one is taken out quickly.
One Warglaive is dedicated to performing actions to Renew the Oaths.
2 Helverins hold back objectives and provide fire support with the help of the Bastard’s Helm.
Army starts with 2 Honour Points, so will not get dishonoured immediately even if fails to kill 2 enemy units in round 1.
Key Stratagems: Rotate, Machine Spirit Resurgent, Noble Sacrifice, Martial Prowess, Full Tilt, Thin Their Ranks, Benevolence of the Machine God
Secondaries: Stranglehold, Grind Them Down, Renew the Oaths
The more I heard about the new dex, the less I like it. Maybe we should change the name of the thread to 'Dex Baby Knight.
Not the designer team's fault but we have a codex with 4 pages of stratagems when GW is hinting that CPs are going to be cut in half. WTH?!?!?
Also complex =/= good. 4 oaths pick 2 that in reality will be always the same 2. Buffing for armingers that again will end up being always the same 2/3 buffs.
Weapons, and relics got a sidegrade for the most part, but our units keep being very, very vulnerable to enemy fire.
In codex there are multiple ways of automatical, turning wound roll to six. And multiple ways of changing dmg of weapon to mortals on wound roll of six..
So is it meaningfull? Spending 4CP to mKe Tyrant deal d6+8 MW?
I think the castellan is made for going in another army to bring the big fire support, it doesn't have any synergies with the rest of the book for some reason anyway ;-)
A question about armiger moirax options:
I'm looking to add one to my army just to up the variety (I'm very jealous of the new chaos versions) what do people think of the various weapons options?
Obviously they just look a bit bad compared to the new chaos gatling cannon and claw but I'm thinking either a Lightning Lock & Claw or Grav & Claw?
Anti light or heavy infantry plus a anti vehicle melee weapon. I know double lightning is the general goto but I feel that a combat weapon is a must if we are sending our armigers in to get objectives.
So I have the book (yay for my FLGS) and have been trying to wrap my head around it.
Initially I was team Mechanicum and thought without access to the 5+++ against mortals and ignore bracket strats imperials is lacking
But the strength of the monarch abilities has me reevaluating things. Being able to give armigers a 4++, 5+++ with -1D is very strong. The book is a weird one. We can super buff armigers but look very vulnerable if our buffing knights get sniped.
I am also agonising over the best split of big guys to little. Currently thinking 2 big 7 little is the strongest. Although a preceptor death ball of 10 warglaive/hellverins sounds amazing but if that preceptor gets tau railgun'd then its GG
Ideasweasel wrote: I am also agonising over the best split of big guys to little. Currently thinking 2 big 7 little is the strongest. Although a preceptor death ball of 10 warglaive/hellverins sounds amazing but if that preceptor gets tau railgun'd then its GG
I don't think you can physically fit 10 Armigers into 6'' of the Preceptor, and if you did you'd give up the -1 damage. I think things like the Forge Master for your own -1 damage on a big knight while in your deployment zone and some defensive relics will be important to keep the big knights alive. You will also likely push some of the Armigers up to make them distraction carnifexes. The Helm of Bastards lets a couple of Helverin's or Moirax operate independently while still hitting hard.
I'm curious as to what they will do with the Forge World knights. I've got a Lancer that still moves 14'' right now, and throwing that into the middle of an enemy army then blowing up when I die is tempting.
hehe. Yeah The Helm of Bastards on a couple of hellverins is really tempting. I like the Taranis Crusader mortal wound wombo combo but I just know its going to get nerfed or mortal capped in some way. GW always removed my fun. Plus a Crusader just isnt a good enough force multiplier for my armigers. And a Preceptor/Errant is so tempting. If only we got my point reductions across the board. Cause squeezing in 3 big guys I think we lose out on too much ability to play the misson. Is 4 armigers enough?
I think you could go four Armigers and three big knights. Their primary value is board presence. Lets say you go two Warglaives and two Helverins. That gives you two Warglaives to feed into the middle with three big guys backing them up. If you make one of the Questoris a Preceptor and one the a Master of Vox, you could stack buffs from all three onto a center objective bound Warglaive and have enough back up to be fairly confident in killing whatever they send after it. Then you can do it again next turn.
Meanwhile the Helverin's are holding a back objective or maneuvering to kill a threat.
I also like the option of making a pair of Helverin's Freeblades with the Hunters of Beasts ability to give them +1 to hit vehicles/monsters. The Helm of Bastards already precludes them from getting the best buffs from Bondsman, so you may as well lean into their killing potential.
I have a single questoris knight painted for my Sisters that I can now use again as a Freeblade. Does a Freeblade in this instance (in a heavy aux detachment) get the oath benefit of either imperium (so the move stuff) or mechanicus (extra wounds and healing)? I haven't been able to find a definitive answer in the various reviews.
Without having access to the Codex until this weekend, I believe that Freeblades lose the Imperialis/Mechanicus oath. The good news is that is the only thing they lose.
bmsattler wrote: Without having access to the Codex until this weekend, I believe that Freeblades lose the Imperialis/Mechanicus oath. The good news is that is the only thing they lose.
Thats not terrible because only the Mechanicus one is reasonably good anyways. Who thinks wound regen is remotely comparable to a mere +1" to charge?
Well, I believe it is +1 to advance, charge, pile-in, and consolidates. It also allows you to ignore movement and advance penalties, so you can move your slower knights (I miss my 12'' move!) through woods or craters.
If I remember correctly, Freeblade Lance regenerates a wound and ignores Advance and Charge modifiers, which is a side-grade on the Imperialis side of things.
I think that Imperialis is committing to a melee approach to the game. They are faster and more aggressive. I also like their custom house traits more than Mechanicus.
Mechanicus has better stratagems and are tougher to kill. They have some really good shooting tricks. Freeblade lance lets you kinda pick and choose between the other two, while not being as specialized in either role. I really favor House Griffith, Raven, Taranis, and the Freeblade Lance.
Well I’ve just completed my first game with the book.
Got my codex on Tuesday. Played my friends sisters. He has a fairly old school list with vahl Celestine, host of characters like dogmata, cannoness with remove invulnerables etc. He had an exorcist and a couple of rhinos, 1 filled with melta girls. Repentia. Zehpheryn etc. All the toys
I ran Taranis
Crusader pimped to spit out mortal wounds (Taranis trait and endless fury) -1D in DZ.
Preceptor to buff the warglaives 2+ litanies relic 4++ vs shooting
Errant 4++ melee, vox bondsman 5+ CP regen
4 warglaives
We played the 4 objective map which with the no scout moves. In theory great for me. I chose grind them down, stranglehold and the new shadow operations one to do an action in 6” from the middle. (I had chosen the shoot and do an action as my 3rd litany, Tesla for the 2nd, and the most important was the 5+++ if bonded aura at 1)
I went first and couldn’t really see much. Killed an rhino that couldn’t really hide. I had moved into position for stranglehold but the reduced movement and me being an idiot meant I couldn’t do our new action as it required a warglaive to advance into the middle objective - whoops - who knew losing 2” would be such a big deal
The rest of the game fell apart really quickly so I won’t go into too much detail but highlights include my shooting being hilariously bad (I think we are a mostly melee army now. Just our guns feel meh even if you roll well) a knight took 55 wounds by a squad of repentia. Yup. If only we could trade up 3x our points hey! And me of course rolling a 2 for the get back up again stratagem. I wasn’t able to trade efficiently and found the big guys to be a massive liability still. Sisters being able to trade up 3x is....well it is what it is I guess
I’m not really feeling mechanicum so I think I’m going to try a really strong imperials shield build
Giant castle to turtle up on a couple of objectives and abuse transhuman -1D bubble and 4++ both phases invulnerable save. It’s kinda crazy how armigers can end up being tankier than the big guys.
I’m still undecided on the book. I won’t read too much into today’s game as it was mostly trying out the mechanics. But a few of our glaring problems aren’t fixed. So I do have a few concerns but hopefully with practice and a more armiger heavy build I can eek a few wins. I’ve been playing 1 and 10 or 2 and 7 for the last few months prior to this book and doing ok so I think now more than ever leaning into codex:Armigers is the way to go
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Ps.
Im seeing a lot of feedback on the webs is imperials is not great. As someone with the book people are sleeping on the imperials side
The chivalric system favours melee. Imperials side has better melee options. Also the exalted court stuff is leagues better on the imperials side
If you are worried about what you miss out on by going imperials (ignore bracket on a model and mortal wound 5+++ on a model strats. Just play as hawkshroud cause you count as double wounds and can get a FNP for mortals
But since you are going to be spamming armigers with a 4++ -1D 5+++ aoe bubble. Yeah it’s crazy. The high monarch ability is just bonkers good.
The rest of the game fell apart really quickly so I won’t go into too much detail but highlights include my shooting being hilariously bad (I think we are a mostly melee army now. Just our guns feel meh even if you roll well) a knight took 55 wounds by a squad of repentia. Yup. If only we could trade up 3x our points hey! And me of course rolling a 2 for the get back up again stratagem. I wasn’t able to trade efficiently and found the big guys to be a massive liability still. Sisters being able to trade up 3x is....well it is what it is I guess
Durability on a real tabletop was the issue before, and still is. But I guess that to whoever designed the book 24w looks really powerful probably because they are not playing on an enviroment where a 6 to hit means an auto wound (IG, Necrons...) or Shuriken weapons turning your armor into a 6, and so on...
We can also panic a bit when the upcoming rules halving CPs hit out formations. Starting with 0 CPs is going to be a riot.
Anyone jealous of the chaos knights book and are we renaming this thread yet?
I look at what the chaos book can do and I feel the twinge of the green eyed monster. Being able to make a questoris knight not fall over to light breeze is pretty good. Wish we had such durability buffs - we have a few scattered bout locked behind sub faction paywalls but nothing like the amount they can stack.
Anyone got any positives. One thing I find cool is how much CP we have. (until the chapter approved 1/2 CP nerfs) It is nice being able to actually use our stratagems for a change. So thats cool
Imperial Knights have access to huge mortal wound spam. Mechanicus knights can turn a melta hit into D6+4 mortals, and Imperial Knights can do something similar with melee weapons and Helm of the Forgotten Warrior. It allows us to specialize a little more and not suck at anti-horde or anti-elite.
The Imperial Knight ability to power up Armigers is fairly insane. We want to play a more cagey game by throwing a Warglaive or two out into the midfield while the rest of the army maneuvers for lines of fire.
I really like house Griffin for an aggressive style, Taranis leans into the mortals a little more, Raven is very maneuverable and has access to more rerolls, and the Freeblade Lance lets you pick and choose some of those benefits for individual units. I'm genuinely excited to try the Freeblade Lance in particular.
Paladin (Warlord)
Mechanicus- +1 save vs D1 weapons, Ion Bulwark, Judgement, Master of Lore w/ 6s explode aura
Errant
Imperialis Noble Combatants (I'm assuming this will work for Strike profiles after FAQ), Knight Seneschal WLT, Helm of the Nameless Warrior, Herald
2x Helverins
Imperialis Hunters of Beasts, Helm of the Bastard
2x Helverins
Mechanicus Machine Focus
3x Warglaives
Imperialis Strike and Shield
You can put -1 damage, 4++ invuln in shooting and melee, advance and charge, and reroll 1s to hit and wound in both shooting and combat on two Warglaives who will also only be hit on 4+ in combat and can get transhuman with a 1 cp strat.
The Errant can use Noble Combatants to get more chances of rolling 6s to wound with a chainsword for 6 flat mortals. That is on top of the reroll a hit or wound you can get from Lay Low. The Paladin can do something similar with Judgement, which lets you do mortals with an indirect 3+d3 weapon.
Two Helverins are +1 to hit vs vehicles/monsters/characters and +1 to wound, with +1 damage vs Titanic. The Helm of Bastards also counts the second Armiger it benefits as having Bondsman, so another -1 damage for it. I'd look at outflanking the second two Helverins to threaten coming in on a flank against opponents trying to fire and fade behind cover. That forces them to either take the hit or screen out and give you shots at their screens.
Think 2 big guys is the max one can conceivably take without sacrificing the ability to play the board?
I don't hate armiger spam as much as some but I definitely would prefer to play 3 big and 4 small but it just feels after a questoris gets sniped you quickly run out of bodies
You could run 4 big and 2 small I think. You'd be going at least two Gallants and giving up on Exalted Court buffs, though you wouldn't need many of the latter with 2 Armigers. I feel like that would be kinda weak though. I think you can get by with 3 big and 4 small reasonably well. It would take a fair amount of playtesting to see how it works.
I've been painting a Castellan for the last two month and by god I'm gonna use it!
I know its not the most optimal of choices as it doesn't synergies with the other units in the book well - plus the fact that it costs me an extra 3CP to bring over a questoris is darn painful :-(
I think the best way to use him is in Taranis for extra durability and the MW combo.
I'm taking two questoris and 3 armigers.
Mainly durability relics and such, can't decide between the MW helm for my Errant or the 4++.
The terrain layout will be really key to how the big boy performs and the missions could be pretty tricky given my low model count but I'm looking forward to trying.
