Armiger Helverins, Warglaives, and Moiraxes are separate data sheets. Each also can be fielded in units of up to 3, so 8 Armigers of any combination of models could be fielded.
Gallants, on the other hand, are limited to 3 if the mission includes the rule of 3.
This is the next list that I will play, it will be my second 9th game and I am still trying to figure out the best way to use my Admech and IKS.
the gallant will run towards enemy territory, the crusader will stay in my zone killing everything he can, the armiger and ballistarii will try to occupy targets despite not being very numerous, the priests will move with lucius before the game to an enemy target if there is room and they will try to kill something to get into 3 ++, finally the infantry will move to help the ballistarii and armigers to have some presence.
Been playing Taranis for 3 years, mine are even painted as such. But with the changes to reroll and the need for good melee more so than ever, I’d reconsider your household
Automatically Appended Next Post: And a Krast Crusader with first knight and headsmans mark gives you a bit more punch of anti tank
Been playing Taranis for 3 years, mine are even painted as such. But with the changes to reroll and the need for good melee more so than ever, I’d reconsider your household
Automatically Appended Next Post: And a Krast Crusader with first knight and headsmans mark gives you a bit more punch of anti tank
I also have all my iks painted from the Taranis house but it seems like a good idea to change them to Krast.
I like your advice, thanks.
To shoot down tanks I also have the Ballistarii Autocanon f7 (+1 to the wound roll) damage 2 + Ballistarii Lastcannon F9 and damage 1D6
another option may be to insert a Terrax-Pattern Termite Assault Drill
and exchange the Crusader for a Warden. The Terrax-Pattern Termite Assault Drill he can transport the Priests and thus switch to Stygies so that when the Ballistarii get stuck in melee he can use the chant to escape and fire, the problem is losing the firepower of the cannon
With the price of the Chaos Knight's Tyrant going down to match the Castellan, I'm a little more confident that they have dropped its price to something that is reasonable. Not too high, not too low. That said I was looking at the ways I might use it to run a primary Knights/backup AdMech list.
The Castellan still benefits from the Raven strat, and Ion Bulwark offsets its 3-CP cost for rotate ion shields. It can advance and shoot as normal to get a line of sight against what it needs to. The two Wardens would advance up a flank taking advantage of the 8-inch advance strategim and Landstrider to jump on an objective. The idea would be that since they are both characters, they could heroically intervene on units trying to contest the objective and at least make that a harder thing to do.
The Serberys Raiders are awesome at screening, harrassing, and sniping key characters with 18'ish shots per unit. They can use their pre-game move to get out closer to the middle or to just generally get where you want them to be. The Ranger squads can all be put into reserve for 1 command point, letting them come in at later turns to help hold objectives without risking early turns destruction.
I agree about the Castellan. It looks like its price won't be changing for a while, so it looks like it's in a good spot.
Definitely let me know how the 3x5 Rangers perform. I have trouble imagining them doing anything meaningful, but I'd love to hear information to the contrary.
bmsattler wrote: With the price of the Chaos Knight's Tyrant going down to match the Castellan, I'm a little more confident that they have dropped its price to something that is reasonable. Not too high, not too low. That said I was looking at the ways I might use it to run a primary Knights/backup AdMech list.
The Castellan still benefits from the Raven strat, and Ion Bulwark offsets its 3-CP cost for rotate ion shields. It can advance and shoot as normal to get a line of sight against what it needs to. The two Wardens would advance up a flank taking advantage of the 8-inch advance strategim and Landstrider to jump on an objective. The idea would be that since they are both characters, they could heroically intervene on units trying to contest the objective and at least make that a harder thing to do.
The Serberys Raiders are awesome at screening, harrassing, and sniping key characters with 18'ish shots per unit. They can use their pre-game move to get out closer to the middle or to just generally get where you want them to be. The Ranger squads can all be put into reserve for 1 command point, letting them come in at later turns to help hold objectives without risking early turns destruction.
my list with castelan is very similar to what you propose
The 4 Warglaives blow out a lot of match-ups at this point level. My toughest matches have been against Marines, but they're always close. The most important tactic is distance management. His Eradicators have a threat range of 32" (24" gun, 3" trait, 5" move). My Warglaives can shoot to 44", and assault ~24" (or 30" with Full Tilt). If I deploy conservatively, I have always gotten the first strike, and each Thermal Spear kills about one Eradicator. If I'm lucky, I can move to charge their midfield Aggressors/Assault Intercessors while shooting the Eradicators.
In response, my experienced opponent hides or reserves the Eradicators and basically uses his midfield as bait. Fortunately, at long range the (fully buffed) Eradicators only middle bracket a Warglaive (and Defiant Fury kicks in). I just have to keep the Armigers 18" away or 19" from the board edge to stay out of half range.
When things go badly, his Eradicators can cripple two Armigers and his other AT can finish them off. It's critical that the Warglaives are only exposed after they've charged the midfield infantry. If the Warglaives are killed after the Intercessors and Aggressors are crippled, then I'll win by holding objectives.
Usually the game ends similar to the 1500 report I posted earlier (against the same player, actually). I've got a couple Dunecrawlers and some Vanguard holding objectives, while he's got a couple characters wandering around with some Eradicators taking pot shots.
Castellan Ion bulwark, Cawls Wrath
Preceptor Ironstorm (Landstrider, helm of dominatus)
6 warglaives with metas
My opponent was an iron hands almost entire dread list. Leviathan, Mortis, contemptor etc. He had 3 invictors for scout move.
We played 2 games on two different table setups. One had a centre piece that we counted as woods. The other looked like a nova style L blocker table. All of the terrain has windows. Most of it was considered obscuring etc
The amount of terrain was quite dense. We played two missions from the book that only have 4 objectives(which I was quite pleased about)
My opponent won the roll off to go first. He proceeds both games to drop my preceptor turn 1. First game nothing I could have done about that. Second game I could of deployed slightly further back to take less wounds and he would have lived.
The first game pregame he scout moved the invictors onto the furthest away objectives. Then he threw up most of his dreads up into the centre of the board and touched the woods. This giving him access to shoot me and me a -1 penalty across the board in return apparently. (Not liking these terrain rules tbh)
Turn 1 I had two options. Go for the heavy hitters in his army or try and remove the invictors off the objectives to try and slow down the primary deficit. I elected to do so and...well rolled like an absolute gimp. 1’s and 2’s across the board - in my gaming circle I’m usually known as being exceptionally jammy with dice rolls. About 16 people had a laugh at my misfortune(via whatsapp)
The game was pretty much toast there and then to be honest. Turn 2 he dropped 3 of my armigers and I just called it
Game 2 with woods over to the side and the classic L blockers I felt like this would be better. My opponent commented that we had quite a lot of terrain and it was the map with the circle of 9” deployment table quarters. He was quite happy that this coincided with the L blockers.
I wanted to be less passive (as game 1 I really felt I’d given up the mid board by being cautious and also unlucky getting sniped +bad shooting phase.
He went first and scout moved invictors. I had split my army into two flanks. Preceptor to run along the bottom left with 3 armigers. Castellan to head north with 3 armigers and try and remove the 2 invictors that were on an objective easily snatched just outside my deployment.
Miscalculated the threat range of his stuff and he did just enough damage to kill the knight preceptor. This was 100% my error this time round. So I start the game minus the preceptor.
I go with the game plan and push Castellan up into melta range of invictors on the objective just outside of my deployment flanked with a few warglaive buddys. I change direction of the bottom left armigers and push up just behind one of the L blockers in the centre. My opponent at this point has moved most of his heavy hitters to be in the middle around the L blockers on the other side away from me.
In a rare bit of luck that evening his leviathan dread is touching the terrain piece. I decide f*ck it I’m going to light him up. Threw most of my guns into him and had mixed results but managed to drop him.
Meltas and a coupe of warglaives totally whiffed on the invictor so it counts as contested. But my opponent was on 2, I was on 1. So he gets the 15VP primary. For those wondering why I didn’t shoot off the other invictor to make it 1v1 the angle on the terrain was impossible for me to get a decent firing lane. Kudos to my opponent but we really did have a decent amount of terrain and it stung me there.
His turn 2 he absolutely smashes it. Drops my Castellan with just enough. My turn 2 I figure I can get back in this if I play cagey and take out his 48” range las dudes. Then just burst fire down selected targets from behind cover. - His las Cannon dudes i’d like to add we’re throwing blinders. One guy did 17 wounds himself to a knight. I just couldn’t save for the life of me.
So I throw my warglaives into them and actually had decent damage and number of shots go in. His then just rolls a $hit ton of invulnerable and fnp saves. Laughing at the best dice he’s ever rolled.
The dread survives on 4 wounds. The game was pretty much over there. Not really worth recapping the rest. My opponent had a 12 game winning streak before this. Good guy but he even managed to be more jammy than me (usually) haha
Automatically Appended Next Post: **Will also add that space marines hitting on 2’s, rerolling 1’s and rerolling wounds.....makes me wonder why can’t knights get some of that action? /shrug**
That sounds rough, and mostly sounds like tactical errors. The only strategic issue is House Raven; I don't think it provides much benefit. I don't see the extra d6 movement being a difference maker. Only the Preceptor is likely to get real value out of it by shooting while advancing with Landstrider into a Full Tilt charge (which you'll do exactly once). It doesn't really benefit the Castellan, and the Warglaives don't need to advance. I guess the stratagem is worthwhile on a Castellan, but is that better over-all than a more general house trait?
Tactically, I think you have to overwhelm your opponent. If you're trying to hide and he can still find enough targets to use all his guns, you might as well have taken a more aggressive position in exchange for the same damage. You have too many big walkers to hide them all, so go on the offensive. That doesn't mean deploy carelessly, but measure all his ranges when deploying and try to plan for some guaranteed charges. Make him choose between killing that Preceptor and accepting charges from all your Warglaives. I pre-measure everything, all the time; sometimes I set dice down as markers for one pre-measure while I pre-measure something else, usually to compare threat ranges. I don't leave them on the board, but it can help to visualize your plan.
It's also important to consider stacking a flank during deployment. You don't need to have units in every part of the board, and the best way to avoid damage is to be out of range of half his army. If you just put 6 Warglaives on one side with the Preceptor against the board edge, any unit on the other side of the board might as well not be in the game.
Besides all that, how do you feel about the Helm of Dominatus? I've been curious about it, but the math on the damage bonus hasn't impressed me and I don't know how many Warglaives I could realistically buff. I've actually been running Landstrider with Paragon Gauntlet on my Preceptor, and he just kills literally any vehicle he touches. Hurled Wreckage is great too, though I haven't gotten much use out of Death Grip.
This game he rolled like a gimp, I rolled very well. Smashed him. Almost felt bad lol, he was ready to call it turn 1 but we played turn 2.
I won very convincingly and almost tabled him (would have by turn 3)
Now I don’t know what to think haha
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thankyou for the feedback.
House Raven is probably a luxury I don’t need but man is it fun. It was very clutch this game. I rolled 1’s into 6’s. Helm dominatus was not required, possibly can drop it.
That doesn't surprise me. It seems like a volatile match-up, where either you get the charge and slaughter him or he shoots you just enough that you can't hit back. I imagine as you get more comfortable with managing so many Warglaives the match-up will shift in your favour, since he has no response once you catch him in melee.
+ Stratagems +
Exalted Court [-3CP]: Exalted Court: 2 Extra Warlord Traits
Heirlooms of the Household [-3CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 2 Extra Heirlooms
+ Lord of War +
Armiger Helverins [18 PL, 350pts] . Armiger Helverin: Heavy Stubber
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy Stubber
Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 175pts] . Armiger Helverin: Heavy Stubber
Knight Crusader [26 PL, 490pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Thermal Cannon, Warlord, Warlord Trait (Mechanicus): Cold Eradication
Knight Crusader [26 PL, 490pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Endless Fury, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Thermal Cannon, Warlord Trait (Krast): First Knight
Knight Crusader [26 PL, 495pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heirloom: Sanctuary, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Meltagun, Thermal Cannon, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
Krast Crusaders is really interesting, and honestly I overlooked their First Knight trait on a shooting Knight. Maybe Krast is just the house to be in 9th.
Interesting the knights player above took endless fury over headsmans mark,
I was a big fan of triple crusader for a good chunk of 8th edition. Only issue is with stuff like custodes and sisters of battle ignoring AP1/2 are the gatling cannons and autocannons that great?
hellverins damage can be so good if it goes through but AP1 can be a soft thing sometimes.
First knight is ace, I used to sometimes take First knight then use canticles for admech to grant RR1 to second crusader.
Just not so sure the above would have the AT required. Like the Article says its curtains once you lose a crusader and you likely will early on.
Yeah, I'd actually take Headsman's Mark over Sanctuary on that last Crusader, personally.
The really important part of Helverins is their flat 3 damage (which is also true of Warglaives). That really puts the hurt on Gravis-equivalent models, like Eradicators and most Custodes. Each Helverin kills 1.8 Eradicators.
I think the list is pretty durable compared to the meta, if you avoid Melta ranges. I've been keeping an eye on the tournament winner lists, and I don't think any of them could kill a Crusader in one turn reliably. At long range, each Eradicator does about 1 damage to a 4++ Crusader, and most top SM armies are just Eradicators and Grav Devastators (which are even worse against Knights).
As for the list's anti-tank output, each Helverin does ~4 damage to T7 3+, and each Crusader does ~10-13, excluding the Ironstorms. They can inflict ~50 wounds per turn to T7 3+.
By the way, could you sketch out your opponent's Dreadnought list? I'm curious what they're bringing that's causing so much trouble.
That list is illegal, unless I'm missing something big. It needs 2 more Troops to be a Battalion. Anyway, I ran the math on that list's damage vs T8 4++:
I expected only the more damaging units would be in range of the character buffs, and I included Devastator Doctrine but not any stratagems. So that list can kill a Knight on each turn, but it takes most of its firepower. The rest of the damage would amount to bracketing a Warglaive or two.
It also has a weakness to consider: the Leviathan only has a 32" threat range. If you deploy 33" away from it, it becomes a lot harder to kill a Knight on the first turn. Alternatively, if you just accept the loss of a Knight, you can deploy forward and simply be in range to charge most of his army with the Warglaives. If you use Full Tilt on one to tag a Lascannon Dread, you'll reduce his following firepower substantially while the rest catch up.
I have to say, this list would do really badly in 9th against most other armies. It may not be on purpose, but it's geared pretty heavily against Knights since they can't take advantage of this list's weaknesses. It's truly awful at scoring objectives, and it's liable to be overwhelmed in close combat. I would not expect this list to win games in a tournament.
Ah, probs it’s supposed to be a patrol or vanguard something like that. I just put it together in a rush.
I think he’s been doing ok so far somehow. He was playing online quite a bit on TTS and against his friends. I definitely haven’t quite hit my stride with this edition yet so I’m willing to bet a significant portion of the problem is me and how I’m playing things.
I played against a friends Custodes list today and got wrecked and could see quite a few mistakes that I made. Target selection and also knowing when to commit. I’ve been either to passive or aggressive in the wrong circumstances.
I think I need to ensure I cover two objectives consistently and play for the 40 points if I can rather than push for 3 and then get exposed
A question I have after playing my Admech today is how I would beat my friends Custodes list with knights.
Those 3++ and 4++ saves are really tough nuts to crack.
And telemon dreads halfing damage, having a -1 to hit, -1 strength on your weapons and a fnp is quite a feat to kill. Could you imagine if knights had decent rules like that
Ideasweasel wrote: A question I have after playing my Admech today is how I would beat my friends Custodes list with knights.
Those 3++ and 4++ saves are really tough nuts to crack.
And telemon dreads halfing damage, having a -1 to hit, -1 strength on your weapons and a fnp is quite a feat to kill. Could you imagine if knights had decent rules like that
Custodes dreadnoughts only have a 6++, and are only -1 damage now (per the FAQ, in line with the Space Marine strat).
I’m looking to solidify the direction I’m taking my knights list for 9th. I’ve got a tournament coming up in November and I’m staring at a pile of grey plastic.
I would expect the tournament to be similar to standard 9th edition rules although there is talks of the old style chapter approved deployment (plonk everything down knowing who’s going first)
The 3 directions I’ve got is as below
List 1
House Raven
Castellan
Preceptor
5x warglaives with melta
Helverin
List 2 (Nabbed from goonhammer)
House Krast
3x Crusaders
Gallant
Tempest scions (for objective capping)
Scions min patrol
List 3
House Raven
Castellan
Crusader
Warden with fist
Admech Lucius outrider
Enginseer
3x9 Raiders(dogs or horses I’m still undecided what to call them)
I would expect the flavour of the month armies will all be there in force, salamanders, marines of various types, death guard, Lots of Custodes, Admech and so on etc
Automatically Appended Next Post: Any thoughts on what would be the strongest in your eyes?
Those lists are so divergent that it'll really depend on what you're comfortable playing.
I think 3 Crusader list is the easiest to play, so it'll probably the provide the most consistent result.
I dislike House Raven in each of those lists and think you'd be better off with Krast.
I think I could play a Krast version of the first list really well, but I'm extremely comfortable with positioning Warglaives. If you're willing to put in a lot of practice games and get used to triggering full Pack Tactics reliably, then that's my favourite.
I think the AdMech Outrider list is the weakest. You've got too many Raiders. I'd max out at 3x5, but even then I think a squad will end up being redundant. I do like a Lucius attached Patrol, though: you get access to the Solar Flare for quick objective grabs and you get durable infantry. Maybe you could bring some Ironstriders or switch it to a Patrol with some Breachers instead.
I’m probably the most comfy playing the triple crusaders too, mostly cause I spent most of 8th doing so.
Why do you dislike raven? Order of companions has been pretty clutch so far. Lucius is good fun, it’s often the forgeworld I go for casual Admech games. I love the solar flare. It has created some comedy moments
Ideasweasel wrote: Ah, probs it’s supposed to be a patrol or vanguard something like that. I just put it together in a rush.
Unless you have added one elite dread too many it has to be 2 detachments as vanguard has max 6 elites and this lists 7. Though it's not like he can't do that. Vanquard + patrol and he's fine. Does cost him 3CP though.
Ideasweasel wrote: Why do you dislike raven? Order of companions has been pretty clutch so far.
I was going to post about how Order of Companions isn't quite worth its CP and Raven doesn't bring anything else, but then I actually crunched the numbers. My usual metric is 1 CP is worth ~2.5 more average wounds. On a Castellan, the combined damage of the Decimator, Volcano, Siegebreakers, and Shieldbreaker are normally ~22 wounds against T7 3+. With Order of the Companions that becomes 35.5, a 61% damage increase, or 4.5 wounds per CP spent. That's completely nuts.
The Volcano Cannon does the bulk of the increase, going from 11.67 to 20.36 (74% increase). Surprisingly, the Siegebreakers actually only get a 35% increase despite so many random rolls. Every other gun gets a 50-60% increase.
I realize I'm treading old ground, because the Castellans were meta-warping, but that was before I came back to the hobby. I think originally it was designed with the Crusader in mind, and that's reasonably priced at 2CP. In order for it to see use outside the Castellan, they should have given it a clause that says 'this costs 3CP for units with 30 power or more'. But I digress.
In summary, yeah, Raven Castellans are nuts and probably worth the investment, even though none of the other Raven affects are useful. It does make the army extremely CP hungry, since you're going to feed the Castellan about 4 CP per turn (including Machine Spirit Resurgent) for 2 or hopefully 3 turns.
The rest of your army needs to be very CP-light. It's tough to bring allies, but you can maybe just squeeze a Patrol if they refund CPs and don't plan on spending any.
I could see something like a Castellan, 2 Crusaders, and 2 Helverins working. You could maybe swap the Helverins for a Gallant, or squeeze enough points for 3 Warglaives if you're worried about melee.
I can almost guarantee there will not be a horde army at this event. It’s usually 28-38 people and most of them are regulars.
The ones that do enjoy horde have moved onto others things. You never know of course but I would be honestly really surprised if we see the 90+ boys type lists.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (I’m totally going to eat my words and get some weird horde spam meta warping army round 1 aren’t I haha)
Automatically Appended Next Post: @darkhound I also forgot to mention I’ve been really enjoying using the 8”auto advance stratagem from engine war. Sometimes on a terrain heavy board getting a good firing line for the Castellan can be a bit annoying turn 1.
I’ve caught people off guard flinging him forwards or straddling left or right to pop a couple of vehicles.
I played a friends guard the other day with the above and it Absolutely shredded him. I think I need more practice with the movement and measuring to ensure pack tactics though
You are right raven doesn’t do so much for the warglaives but pushing up the preceptor with Landstrider is nice. Means my entire army can move quite fast.
All in all I’m enjoying armigers and they were a unit I had written off in 8th edition so it’s nice to trot them out
The other benefit to House Raven is the 'advance and shoot as normal' house trait. With the additional terrain that 9th edition calls for, getting LoS (especially with Titanic units over 18 wounds) can be tricky. Being able to get that extra movement for virtually free is a serious consideration. If the regular Meltaguns on a Dominus chassis knight get the D6+2 damage at close range, bringing them to bear also becomes worth more effort.
Basically, if I'm using a Castellan, I'm probably going House Raven. If not, any of the other Mechanicus houses are interesting. Even some of the Imperalis houses could be useful depending on specific kits. Valiant's with Hawkshroud for example. The Objective Secured/count as 10 models is an Imperalis specific one if I remember right.
You'll just really want screening units. More so than any edition, everyone can outflank their anti-knight stuff like Eradicators now.
I feel like Raven is more worth it for the advance and shoot thing rather than Order of Companions (which, let's be honest, you're probably only going to use once, maaaaaybe twice, these days since it costs 3 of your precious CP). I've been toying with taking Raven on a list that would have 2 Crusaders and a Castigator. The Castigator takes the Landstrider trait and starts on the line, advances up, fires his gun at something, then uses the Full Tilt stratagem to charge. Not sure it's worth having a Castigator pull a Leeroy Jenkins, but the idea is kind of funny anyways.
ZergSmasher wrote: I feel like Raven is more worth it for the advance and shoot thing rather than Order of Companions (which, let's be honest, you're probably only going to use once, maaaaaybe twice, these days since it costs 3 of your precious CP). I've been toying with taking Raven on a list that would have 2 Crusaders and a Castigator. The Castigator takes the Landstrider trait and starts on the line, advances up, fires his gun at something, then uses the Full Tilt stratagem to charge. Not sure it's worth having a Castigator pull a Leeroy Jenkins, but the idea is kind of funny anyways.
Well, I was wondering what my first 9th Ed Knight List was going to be....
I'm not anymore. Bolded for emphasis. Thanks for the good chuckle
DarkHound wrote: The Volcano Cannon does the bulk of the increase, going from 11.67 to 20.36 (74% increase). Surprisingly, the Siegebreakers actually only get a 35% increase despite so many random rolls. Every other gun gets a 50-60% increase.
Is that damage output average calculated with or without overkill removed? with d6 shots and 3d3 damage overkill seems to be not that unlikely(especially with rerolls) causing the real meaningful average go down.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
U02dah4 wrote: Great massive increase now next round your playing my T3 horde army whats the damage increase? The volcano cannon goes from not quite 3 to not quite 3
The problem with that sort of argument is that the benefit is largely determined by your opponents list so yes t7 3+ is great but that's not all lists
Odds of running into pretty much extinct build in 9e is pretty damn low. Might just as well ask what to do when you run into 3 necron pylon list.
Ideasweasel wrote:@darkhound I also forgot to mention I’ve been really enjoying using the 8”auto advance stratagem from engine war. Sometimes on a terrain heavy board getting a good firing line for the Castellan can be a bit annoying turn 1.
That is actually a pretty compelling argument for Raven. Okay, I admit, you guys are warming me up to the idea. I think there's a pretty narrow range of builds where they're good, but if they're good then they are.
tneva82 wrote:
DarkHound wrote: The Volcano Cannon does the bulk of the increase, going from 11.67 to 20.36 (74% increase). Surprisingly, the Siegebreakers actually only get a 35% increase despite so many random rolls. Every other gun gets a 50-60% increase.
Is that damage output average calculated with or without overkill removed? with d6 shots and 3d3 damage overkill seems to be not that unlikely(especially with rerolls) causing the real meaningful average go down.
It is not accounting for overkill, but it doesn't need to. The actual damage results are a probability curve. You can use a computer to calculate every possible result and determine the probability of a kill against a given amount of wounds. Having an average damage that exceeds their wounds just pushes the curve up (a lot), increasing the odds of success (and decreases the odds of failure). The difference is I can do average damage calculations in my head in a couple seconds at the table. That gives me an intuition of the odds of success even if the average isn't technically possible.
As an aside, the only caveat is averages gated by large failure chances vs success payoffs. A practical case I'm considering is swapping my Preceptor's Paragon Gauntlet for the Ravager. Technically, the Gauntlet has an average damage of about 18, but the actual results are discrete increments of 8 and are mostly gated by the hit roll. There's about an 8% chance to inflict 8 or less damage. If the Paragron fights 3 times a game, about one in 4 games I'll fluff my rolls. The Ravager's average damage comes down to 16, but the odds of critical failure become 1.3%, which is once in 25 games. The Ravager is slightly less likely to secure a kill, but vastly less likely to screw up completely.
First versus a tau list - very close but I won by 6 points
Second game was versus a friends eldar with a ton of anti tank. (He tweaked his list a little bit but was all in good fun) lost badly but so much explode rolls and swingy luck came into play. I made some silly decisions and am not putting the blame on the dice but we had about 7 explode rolls and a ton of mortal wounds - it was hilarious
Sticking with the list for now. It does tend to go big or go home but I played quite tactfully against the tau and am pleased with the result. And whilst tau are not all they once were a knight win versus tau shouldn’t be taken for granted.
DarkHound wrote: It is not accounting for overkill, but it doesn't need to. The actual damage results are a probability curve. You can use a computer to calculate every possible result and determine the probability of a kill against a given amount of wounds. Having an average damage that exceeds their wounds just pushes the curve up (a lot), increasing the odds of success (and decreases the odds of failure). The difference is I can do average damage calculations in my head in a couple seconds at the table. That gives me an intuition of the odds of success even if the average isn't technically possible.
But if you just calculate average based on shots x odds of hit x odds of wound etc without removing overkill that just gives useless info. Like necron pylon average caused 31 damage to baneblades. Useless info though. More useful is 57% one shot chance. Looking at average damage like that just makes you overestimate effect.
DarkHound wrote: It is not accounting for overkill, but it doesn't need to. The actual damage results are a probability curve. You can use a computer to calculate every possible result and determine the probability of a kill against a given amount of wounds. Having an average damage that exceeds their wounds just pushes the curve up (a lot), increasing the odds of success (and decreases the odds of failure). The difference is I can do average damage calculations in my head in a couple seconds at the table. That gives me an intuition of the odds of success even if the average isn't technically possible.
But if you just calculate average based on shots x odds of hit x odds of wound etc without removing overkill that just gives useless info. Like necron pylon average caused 31 damage to baneblades. Useless info though. More useful is 57% one shot chance. Looking at average damage like that just makes you overestimate effect.
It's not useless information, you're just pointing out that most people misunderstand what "average result" means. Like people saying "the average result of 2d6 is 7, so I should make this 7" charge" when actually 7 or more is only a 58% chance. The average result or better only occurs about half the time with normal bell curve. If my average damage is 16 against a 16 wound target, it's still only a coin flip to kill them.
You can't plot the probability curve of the results on the fly, but you can calculate the average and assume two things: the results form a bell curve, and the variance is pretty small because more dice rolls conform to an average. For your Pylon vs Baneblade example, you know that 31 damage is only 19% more than the Baneblade's 26 wounds. You're still really close to average, so your results are still going to be near 50%. The further your average gets from your target, the faster your chance to kill increases.
If I say the Volcano Cannon does an average 20 damage, you know that's 25% more than 16 wounds, so you can intuit that's still within a standard deviation so the results are closer to 50% (I'd guess somewhere around 60%). If that average 20 damage is targeting 12 wounds, that's 67% more; the target is likely more than 1 standard deviation from the average, so the results are starting to approach 97% (I'd guess something like 85%).
Planning on running some moirax knights with twin grav pulsars with my admech. Looking at doing the pick own household and like either the reroll #of shots for each weapon or combining the +6” range with the leave combat and still shoot with a -1 or charge
Is there one that is that much better or something else worth taking?
If I'm running only armiger class knights I go with the leave combat and either shoot at -1 or charge and also the one free hit reroll when selected as a mechanicus house. I've found they are fast enough to not need the imperial+1 inch charge/run.
Fishborne wrote: If I'm running only armiger class knights I go with the leave combat and either shoot at -1 or charge and also the one free hit reroll when selected as a mechanicus house. I've found they are fast enough to not need the imperial+1 inch charge/run.
Second that as especially with that load out you need to keep them firing, though they can just shoot what they are in combat with so it's a bit reduced in effectiveness if your pack hunting with them.
The other one I'd suggets considering is the always move at top bracket, but with GW jacking lethality of weapons I doubt that you will get much out of that given they will die completely.
If you want an imperial house you could go storm striders since they don't have a fight from the top bracket strat. But if you want a mechanicus house I don't think it's a great choice. I guess it depends on your meta. Do things get focused down in a turn it does everything get nickeled and dimed?
Since our faction has limited access to rerolls internally slight buff?
I’ve been playing Admech recently but keep coming back to my stompy boys. Custodes are proving a thorn in my side at the moment. I’m doing ok against the other mid tier factions but the likes of Custodes, deathguard and the better marine supplements are giving me pause.
I’d love a sneak peak into the future to see what salvation our 9th codex can bring. I was tempted to email the rules team asking for obsec. It’s that or a survivability buff.
Same way you beat Gravis spam: lots of Dmg3 weapons. I think Data-hoard Breachers are better, but against Stygies melee is especially effective as it denies their dogma (Waaaarglaives).
Breachers mostly have to congregate around the Warlord for their 5+++. This makes them ideal for multi-charging Warglaives for Pack Tactics. You charge a central unit with the first Warglaive, then 2 more Warglaives charge that unit and another unit to the side. Each Warglaive kills about 2 Breachers, each Stygies Breacher inflicts half a wound (Data-hoards inflict 0.8). The Warglaives grind them down over 2 or 3 rounds. Of course, it's never that straight-forward in practice.
Their other weakness is that despite having ObSec, they have a low model count. If you can leverage cheap allied ObSec, you can flip objectives while you grind them down.
With my list specifically, the Fusilave bomber can shut off the Warlord's 5+++ unless he screens very aggressively. I'm sure his shooting will kill the Preceptor and a Warglaive early on, but the remaining 3 Warglaives and my infantry will absolutely out-match 25 Breachers. What I do with the rest of my army depends on the rest of the opponent's list. Between the two versions that got top 4, I think the Mars shooting version would be harder for me.
I keep going back and forth between Noble Combatants, Glorified History, and Defiant Fury, but I think I'm settling into this. Most of my changes lately have been on the AdMech side, since there's only so much you can tweak with Knights.
Honestly, sometimes I think it'd be better for the game if Knights got split up into AdMech and IG, or else got some attending infantry support. I don't think it's good for the game that the army has such large minimum increments. It stifles diversity for pure Knights, since some builds just don't fit efficiently at certain point levels. It'd be interesting to see pure Knights get an infantry platoon or support vehicle squadron under a single Superheavy slot. You could keep your Knight Lance but actually spend your spare points without having to shuffle the entire army to fit another Knight.
I like it. I think that Knights suffer from not having screens, being in limited places on the map, and to a lesser extent lack anti-horde. I think that Raiders fix most of those problems. The ability to snipe characters and fall back from a charge make them even better utility units. AdMech also allow a Knight to get a canticle benefit every now and then, which can be nice. Overall, I think that it's at least a way to play Knights without auto-losing.
Edit: do you mind posting the exact load-outs? I'm interested in why Lucius, for example. And what the Wardens were running.
Castellan with 2 missiles 635 pts
Warden with sword And Ironstorm missile pod - Sanctuary 445 pts
Warden with sword And Ironstorm missile pod - Cunning Commander 445 pts
I’m impressed, my local area has a few matches that on paper would be hard to deal with. But he did amazing to get so far. Great player obviously
I'd try to run the two Wardens as close to each other as possible, use the Castellan to secure a back-field objective with the Enginseer, and use the Raiders to screen out deep-strikers, go after characters, or skirmish for objectives, depending on the capabilities of the opponent's army.
The Knights are all set up to kill Primaris marines rather well. Anti-tank is limited to the Castellan (obviously very good at it) and the Warden's melee abilities. If the Castellan goes down too quickly that could cause serious problems.
I'm also nervous about playing this list against a large number of 'ignore AP-2' Sisters of Battle. Raiders would help here a little I suppose. Trick would be to ignore the rank-and-file and take out the threats to your Knights like Repentia, the Exorcists, and any melta-squads running around.
Can you talk me through your choices. 1 lascannon balistari is a interesting pick. Also would the neutrons be better swapped out with taking 2 warglaives instead? Maybe drop the balistari if the points are needed
What household are you leaning towards for the knights? Krast maybe?
Sure neutrons have similar durability to armiger and I need some backfield objective holders that can fire across the map ideally I need 3 units. One for each objective on a 6 objective map and I had 75 points left over so the ballistarii fitted the role as 3rd
(I have considered an alternate version swapping one onager downgrading the ballistarii weapon and a raider for a twin volkite moirax which still leaves 3)
As to the knights mechanicus custum stormstriders defiant fury.
Castigator landstrider armour of the sacred ion
Preceptor ravager ion bulwark
Basic idea is 15" move on the moirax/ castigator with +2 to charge gives a good shot of them getting into CC/rad flamer range on T1 if the enemy deploy back or go first the raiders form a screen protecting the knights from chargers and sniping any thunderhammer character
As to knight choices
As noted by others wardens are great and the castigator is a better warden faster more wounds more shots and a better cc weapon
The preceptor buffs the armigers it is currently very points efficient and with the high intensity buffing strat it outperforms an errant at vehicle destruction with the flexibility to its firepower to target non vehicles
The moiraxs the grav provides some extra anti vehicle firepower and at damage 4 vs meq is quite flexible in the meta. the rad flamer is strong vs infantry screens auto hit/wounds infantry on 2+. The claw is an odd beast great vs vehicle monsters but not great vs screens but I'm going to try to punch through the screens t1 (and can heroic intervene as a bonus) (warglaives are interchangeable and outperform in cc vs screens but are not as good cc vs vehicles with moiraxs outshoot meq while the armiger outshoots vs vehicles (its pretty similar and really the better choice is based on your opponent list)
(If I did the trade for a twin volkite (it provides great anti screen firepower vs meq (yes las locks are better VS 1w and arguably the better choice but I own the volkites from making the other two and the performance is similar vs other targets)
The melta change is generally threatening for Knights, but we have some too. It might be worth looking at Warglaives with a melta gun harder now. I suspect that even the Thermal Cannon will get the D6+2 damage, which will make Errants a little more competitive with Preceptors again.
The base cost of Warglaives can't exceed 165 points or else the army can't play Combat Patrol missions. I seriously doubt they'll raise Knight prices at all given how badly the army is performing over-all. It's not like improving their anti-tank guns and some minor weapons slightly affects the core problems of the army.
Raven super heavy
Castellan with 2 missiles 635 pts
Warden with sword And Ironstorm missile pod - Sanctuary 445 pts
Warden with sword And Ironstorm missile pod - Cunning Commander 445 pts
Someone floated such a list a few weeks ago that was pretty much identical to this. Shall we discuss?
I love it but am amazed how he scored so highly. Kudos to him and it’s great to see knights represented and doing well
You guys did sell me on the Raven Castellan. I've also seen a significant shift away from anti-tank. The list is initially surprising, but makes more sense when you consider the meta.
I am surprised by a couple of things though. Cunning Commander is an extremely unusual pick. I suppose any anti-tank going into the Castellan is not being used to fight for midboard control, so it doesn't actually need Ion Bulwark. Sure the Castellan is CP hungry, but I'd still rather have a real upgrade on the Warden. Hell, I'd have gone down to 7 starting CP and gotten an extra Relic and Trait.
I'm not sold on 27 Raiders, it seems like you're hitting diminishing returns. They're not efficient offensively, and they don't have a lot of bodies or ObSec, and aren't infantry for scoring secondaries. I think a Patrol with 10-18 Raiders and a couple squads of Vanguard makes more sense. It's more CP efficient and flexible for scoring. I also think that Dunecrawlers are much better backfield objective holders, so fitting one or two in somewhere is a boon.
The Endless Fury is pretty bad on Wardens since you want to spam the auto-hit strat anyway. If you're not rolling to hit, you can't proc exploding 6s. The Wardens should be wading into close combat on objectives, so Sanctuary makes sense. Plus, it's extremely useful to make that Knight a character so it can do heroic interventions.
Cunning Commander makes more sense as a second Warlord trait. If there's nothing else you want, then you can take it for "free" just to get one re-roll and make the Knight a character.
DarkHound wrote: The Endless Fury is pretty bad on Wardens since you want to spam the auto-hit strat anyway. If you're not rolling to hit, you can't proc exploding 6s. The Wardens should be wading into close combat on objectives, so Sanctuary makes sense. Plus, it's extremely useful to make that Knight a character so it can do heroic interventions.
Cunning Commander makes more sense as a second Warlord trait. If there's nothing else you want, then you can take it for "free" just to get one re-roll and make the Knight a character.
yeah I see the reasoning but you can only auto hit one of the two. But rotate to get a 4++ in cc with sanctuary makes sense when fighting for objectives. I'll have to give it a shot
Obviously the solution is to swing the opposite direction and force them to change. Just get a Goff horde and ruin them.
Mix boxes of AoS Savage Orruks with Ork Boyz 1:1, adding in sluggas and shootas to the Savages. The Savages are cheaper and much easier to batch paint. Prime black, use a white rattlecan to highlight, green contrast for the skin, bone colors on the teeth and details (3 colors minimum), technical paint the base, and wash the whole thing with black.
Convert one pack of Nobz into a couple of Pain Boyz, a Big Mek, a Weirdboy, and a Waaagh! Banner. Lastly, get an AoS Megaboss as Ghazzy. Whole thing should run you ~$350 for a 1500pt army and take an afternoon to assemble and paint. It'd be pretty competitive too...
...huh.
Well, I'm going to go finish that horde I started with the Assault on Blackreach set from when I was 14.
DarkHound wrote: Obviously the solution is to swing the opposite direction and force them to change. Just get a Goff horde and ruin them.
Mix boxes of AoS Savage Orruks with Ork Boyz 1:1, adding in sluggas and shootas to the Savages. The Savages are cheaper and much easier to batch paint. Prime black, use a white rattlecan to highlight, green contrast for the skin, bone colors on the teeth and details (3 colors minimum), technical paint the base, and wash the whole thing with black.
Convert one pack of Nobz into a couple of Pain Boyz, a Big Mek, a Weirdboy, and a Waaagh! Banner. Lastly, get an AoS Megaboss as Ghazzy. Whole thing should run you ~$350 for a 1500pt army and take an afternoon to assemble and paint. It'd be pretty competitive too...
...huh.
Well, I'm going to go finish that horde I started with the Assault on Blackreach set from when I was 14.
with the buff to eradicators this seems like a good call.
Ideasweasel wrote: I’ve been spamming armigers and it feels less painful. More things to sit on objectives. Less of a feels bad when they die.
I still prefer 8th edition though. I suspect I’m on the minority but as much as everyone raves about 9th I think something is missing for me
Yeah 9th edition rules for the army, and points costs that arn't already punishing you ontop of giving away an incidental max points secondary.
Goonhammer did an artical on which factions are doing well and why others don't work in 9th and frankly the poorly balanced secondarys look very much like a big part of the problem.
9th has fantastic game balance over-all, and damn near every army has gotten a top placement at a GT. The points costs for all the Knight units are very good. One bad secondary is not the core issue. The problem is that Knights are a one-dimensional army. This edition is emphasizing objective control, and pure Knights are awful at it.
Like I said earlier, Knights either shouldn't be a solo faction, or should have additional support units. Narratively, pure Knights don't quite make sense. Knight Houses have men-at-arms to support the Knights in battle. Knights don't go out on their own crusades, they get tithed or requisitioned to other armies or conflicts. The closest thing is getting garrisoned with a Titan legion, but even then they're working in concert with the Secutarii.
I think for some of those reasons I haven’t been enjoying the edition as much as I probably should
I think the increased reliance on standing on objectives is a bit meh. I don’t actually have a good alternative and recognise a straight shoot out is just as boring
I just for some reason preferred 8th ITC. In time I’ll eventually come round. I didn’t like 7th edition And the game changed for the better so I’m sure it’s fine
DarkHound wrote: 9th has fantastic game balance over-all, and damn near every army has gotten a top placement at a GT. The points costs for all the Knight units are very good. One bad secondary is not the core issue. The problem is that Knights are a one-dimensional army. This edition is emphasizing objective control, and pure Knights are awful at it.
Like I said earlier, Knights either shouldn't be a solo faction, or should have additional support units. Narratively, pure Knights don't quite make sense. Knight Houses have men-at-arms to support the Knights in battle. Knights don't go out on their own crusades, they get tithed or requisitioned to other armies or conflicts. The closest thing is getting garrisoned with a Titan legion, but even then they're working in concert with the Secutarii.
Did you look at the article I referred to, also I'd really question the assertion that every codex has gotten a top placement at a GT.
Also as for fluff, you clearly haven't read some of the knights novels as the Knights do infact fight alone, they outpace guard tanks, infantry would get squished as the knights manoeuvre.
Yes they don't fight entire crusades or campaigns alone, but they fight their battles primarily as Pure knight lances.
When your talking about 1 knight fighting with other forces yeah that is also in the lore and they are freeblades not entire households at war.
I want to play with household lances, not some hodge podge of 1 knight plus guard/admech if I want to play guard I would still own my pretorians/and I aint interested in playing ca'tan worshiping robomen.
The Codex should be playable alone and with eradicators and weapons damage being buffed right now I hope the new codex sees ion shields become a -3 damage effect or such.
TBF, if they gave an option for Armigers to become ObSec I would be very tempted to bring a pure Knight list... it's just easier to transport and they're fun to fly.
Ideasweasel wrote:I think for some of those reasons I haven’t been enjoying the edition as much as I probably should
I think the increased reliance on standing on objectives is a bit meh. I don’t actually have a good alternative and recognise a straight shoot out is just as boring
I just for some reason preferred 8th ITC. In time I’ll eventually come round. I didn’t like 7th edition And the game changed for the better so I’m sure it’s fine
Yeah, and you're in for a rough time since Dreadnoughts got a lot better. That Iron Hands player must be thrilled. Still, Knights themselves are great from a combat perspective, so you can adapt. You just need to find something you enjoy that covers their weaknesses.
Ice_can wrote:Did you look at the article I referred to, also I'd really question the assertion that every codex has gotten a top placement at a GT.
Also as for fluff, you clearly haven't read some of the knights novels as the Knights do infact fight alone, they outpace guard tanks, infantry would get squished as the knights manoeuvre.
The Codex should be playable alone and with eradicators and weapons damage being buffed right now I hope the new codex sees ion shields become a -3 damage effect or such.
You referred vaguely to an article, but didn't link to it. I've read most of their articles, though. Every army except GSC, Tau, and old Necrons have had a top placement. Tyranids have, Guard have. Obviously some armies are better than others, but it seems like everyone's got something to offer. Pure Knights haven't placed, but 75% Knights with AdMech Raiders got 2nd.
The novels that I've read have Knights fighting alone on their own world or in their system out of necessity (typically against native orks or invaders).
You're allowed to want to play pure Knights, and you're allowed to play them. My point is that skew armies are bad for the health of the game, so pure Knights shouldn't ever be great. They (re)introduced blast to hamper horde armies. They don't have such an easy out for pure vehicle without some contrivances. It's just not fun when 50% of your army can't do anything to your opponent. At least against hordes you get the satisfaction of removing models.
And set aside Eradicators, they're an aberration and shouldn't be the standard against which everything else is judged. If they give Knights resilience to Eradicators, then Knights will be invulnerable to any other weapon.
DarkHound wrote: You referred vaguely to an article, but didn't link to it. I've read most of their articles, though. Every army except GSC, Tau, and old Necrons have had a top placement. Tyranids have, Guard have. Obviously some armies are better than others, but it seems like everyone's got something to offer. Pure Knights haven't placed, but 75% Knights with AdMech Raiders got 2nd.
The novels that I've read have Knights fighting alone on their own world or in their system out of necessity (typically against native orks or invaders).
You're allowed to want to play pure Knights, and you're allowed to play them. My point is that skew armies are bad for the health of the game, so pure Knights shouldn't ever be great. They (re)introduced blast to hamper horde armies. They don't have such an easy out for pure vehicle without some contrivances. It's just not fun when 50% of your army can't do anything to your opponent. At least against hordes you get the satisfaction of removing models.
And set aside Eradicators, they're an aberration and shouldn't be the standard against which everything else is judged. If they give Knights resilience to Eradicators, then Knights will be invulnerable to any other weapon.
Sorry think I let my frustration about how junky GW's current balance is get the better of me.
Not helped when marine players are making out the world has ended because agressors dont get to shoot twice for free and claim eradicators are needed in their codex so they can fight hordes
I'm not worried about being able to win events easily but I'd like to feel a 3-2 or 4-1 result was possible with atleast one of my armies.
Also with the new marine codex it's not just melta that got buffed lots of damage output just got cranked up with a lot of stuff at the s5/6 jumping to D2.
Plasma is now S8/9, strateguns to do 2d3 MW auto wounding on 6's. Lethality from that codex and even necrons looks to be Marines 2.0 levels maybe -10% tops.
Dreadnaughts just got a -1 to all damage to a minimum of one on 130 points models is wanting -2/-3 to all damage that unreasonable for 400+ point models that can never get cover.
Haha he’s delighted. Just about dancing I would say. My current list is all melta anyway so I say bring it on. I can handle -1 damage (*whimper*, I’m not scared...)
I should be scared right?
On the balance discussion just give knights obsec. Allow for troops from say Admech or guard to be thrown into a detachment as a special knight rule. No -CP
Give us a way to be a bit more survivable and tbh I would of said turning the lethality down to balance.....but a bog standard crusader already feels pretty weak comparatively these days in damage output. Anyone else feel that? A crusader just seems a bit meh. -1 damage and ignore AP1/2 makes the Gatling Cannon a bit lacklustre and when you get 1-2 number of shots on a thermal or miss/have them bounce off an invulnerable save....well your wonder what your 475 pts was worth
Who’s excited for warglaive with melta spam? I know I am
I’ve been having fun running 6-8 even before this change
i cant understand why thermal spears and thermal cannons didnt get the new melta rule. Stuck waiting for the new codex for it while we get melted by it instead
I really want to think it's mostly the third, in so far "writing" means checking the ramifications of the change. I want to think they're erring on the side of caution by not fixing what isn't broken.
However, they also didn't change things like the Fire Dragon's Fusion Gun, which is identical to a Meltagun. They did change their flamers and Dragon's Breath Flamer, however. That makes me think they have a big Excel table of the weapons and they did name search. It's just such an odd half measure, I genuinely don't know what to make of it.
DarkHound wrote: I really want to think it's mostly the third, in so far "writing" means checking the ramifications of the change. I want to think they're erring on the side of caution by not fixing what isn't broken.
However, they also didn't change things like the Fire Dragon's Fusion Gun, which is identical to a Meltagun. They did change their flamers and Dragon's Breath Flamer, however. That makes me think they have a big Excel table of the weapons and they did name search. It's just such an odd half measure, I genuinely don't know what to make of it.
Its half assed and lazy is what it is. They took the time to update every factions plasma but not the meltas? Tau ion doesnt have the same name as marines plasma but that changed but fusion rifles didnt? They updated cognis flamers but not grav or cognis stubbers. It makes zero sense
It’s the biggest issue holding back 40k from being a competitive game.
I would love all the rules front ended or batch released and properly tested cutting down on faqs.
Lock in stuff for a period of time or season and then adjust factions collectively for the next time phase. The piecemeal spin the wheel approach to balance is maddening.
Every dog has his day you just have to wait a few years....woof
Kinda, yeah. It's mostly the case that I haven't been able to play, but in the games that I have played I've figured out my army and done well. All my games have been on the simulator. I've only been back in the hobby since March, so I'm building my collection to match my experience instead of playing more games.
I think in general the thread is quiet because Knights are small, specialized faction that isn't good. There's not much left to talk about for pure Knights. You either run 3 big Knights and 3/4 Armigers, or 9 Armigers and a couple big 'uns.
If people had more experience with different allied strategies, that'd be useful to share. I keep hearing Scions are strong and dynamic, but I don't know enough to know how.
Mono knights doesn't function at the moment due to missions
So mostly your running soup
probably 1-2 big and 1-3 small.
I would advocate a castigator and preceptor with moirax or Warglaives
But others will consider warden crusader or castellan
When your choice is swap 1 for 1 its not much to say
As to soup components I am favouring either admech spamming raiders or guard vehicles (hellhounds manticore cyclops tank commander) but I have not had enough games to really evidence what functions
I’m tinkering with a list that uses 24 raiders in an outrider. Similar to what Evan Stump came second with at a GT last month.
I have a tournament in 3 weeks and need to lock down a list.
I had an Armiger spam list but there are a couple of players going that will counter that perfectly. T7 folds like paper and they can remove 4+ a turn from range
I’m wondering if backlining a Castellan with cold eradication and giving him RR1 using knight of the cog is a substitute for Raven using order of companions stratagem.
What I’ve found is if I throw forward 2 bigger knights behind waves of dogs, not all armies want to shoot the Castellan early on. Perhaps this means that saving 3CP for the raven strat can be used on rotating Castellan shields if need be. I’ve been finding he is more vulnerable getting melee’d more often than not in the current times rather than shot. And if an army can kill him at range they can do it in a single turn regardless
So maybe not spending 6CP on rotate, more likely 3.
I’m actually going to try out my beloved household that I used to play. And take 2 crusaders with him as house Taranis. Stick 2+ save on one and 4++ against shoot on the other.
Enginseer sits next to the Castellan and I could maybe stick a shroudpsalm on the Castellan if the need requires. Then against AP 2 shooting everyone has a 4+
This likely won’t be very competitive but I have 3 beautiful painted knights(commission from a while ago) and I get to play with my favourite Admech unit (the dogs)
What do you think?
The event I’m playing at will be a reduced numbers GT. so it’s going to be a bit different. The advantage is I know a 3rd of the people going and play them regularly lol
I'm afraid I don't think it'll work. Cold Eradication and re-roll 1s isn't even close to a replacement for Companions, statistically. As well, Rotating for 3CP just isn't worth it; going from 5+ to 4+ is a 50% damage reduction, so Ion Bulwark beats out every Warlord trait for a Dominus class.
Unfortunately, I think the Castellan isn't quite good enough on its own. But it turns into a menace with all its relevant upgrades: Ion Bulwark, Wrath of Cawl, and Companions are too efficient to give up. There's just not an argument for building it any other way.
I suppose there's an interesting argument for running multiple houses in the same detachment. All you lose is the Tradition bonus (which for Raven is nice but not essential), but you gain access to specific relics, traits, and stratagems. That does also incentivize Free Blades, since there's no extra opportunity cost.
In fact, you could give your two other Knights ObSec! One Mechanicus Freeblade with Sworn to Quest, and the other an Imperialis with Banner of Macharius Triumphant. The burdens Impetuous Nature and Weary Machine Spirit generally don't do anything.
Since the Imperialis Knight is taking the 1CP relic, the Mechanicus Freeblade is taking a 1CP Warlord trait. The House of the Imperialis Knight only matters for the stratagem, unless you're willing to pay 2CP for it (or decide the Freeblade doesn't need it).
The Imperialis stratagem options really do suck. Since you get +1 to advance and charge, you could capitalize on that by taking a Gallant and planning to Full Throttle. In that case, you would take Terryn for the potential to fight twice. Alternatively, a Cadmus Crusader provides some anti-deepstrike.
You'd end up with something like:
Super Heavy Detachment
Raven Castellan, Bulwark, Cawl's Wrath [Warlord]
Mechanicus Freeblade Crusader, Cunning Commander [-0CP]
Cadmus Crusader, Banner of Macharius [-1CP]
Are people still not using Valiants? I kinda figured with smaller boards they may see some play, plus they can wreck marines. I'm looking at House Terryn for some charging shenanigans and getting stuck in hard and fast. Probably with Wardens so you can shoot in close combat.
At the start of 9th I considered trying a Terryn list with the core of valiant with relic flamer and 4++, gallant with landstrider and 2+ save. Then a paladin with the relic battlecannon.
I never fleshed it out past that but those 3 sounded fun.
Ideasweasel wrote: At the start of 9th I considered trying a Terryn list with the core of valiant with relic flamer and 4++, gallant with landstrider and 2+ save. Then a paladin with the relic battlecannon.
I never fleshed it out past that but those 3 sounded fun.
In 8th I actually had a lot of fun with a list that had.....3 Gallants, 2 Helverins, and 1 valiant. I wasn't winning tournaments but Most opponents didnt know what to do with them and it had a fair amount of CP.
I've been having some good synergy with Rad Saturated, Luminary Suffusion Sulphurhounds, Moiraxes with Volkite and Claw, and a Valiant.
Sulphurhounds are fast and can use their -1T to everything within 3" very easily which is a perfect set up for the relatively low strengthed Moirax firepower, and the Valiant conflag cannon/siege cannons.
Moiraxs have also been very good against Gravis armored Marines, sure they have no ap on the flamer but each fail is a dead Gravis. And the mortal wound on Volkite makes their two damage weapon feel a bit like a three damage weapon. They aren't great in combat and can be bogged down by hordes, hence the Sulphurhounds.
Valiant is the go to Dominus class Knight in my opinion, he wants to be center board which is what 9th is all about, he gets a bad rap for a reason I have yet to see. With the Sulphurhounds around he wounds significantly easier on those pesky T7 targets which are EVERYWHERE.
All of the Knights are Taranis, it helps the Moiraxes stick around, they really are quite tanky because you can put a good number of them on the table. Couple that with a Necromechanic Enginseer from AdMech+Mechanicus Oath and you can heal any Knight 5 wounds per turn.
Great thing too is everything in the list apart from the Vanguard can shoot into combat, being either a Vehicle or Pistol.
Played pre codex:
Imperial Fists, with nine Eradicators
Space Wolves, six Eradicators
Ultramarines with six Eradicators and grav drop pod
Black Templar with six Eradicators
Post Codex:
Space Wolvesx2, six Eradicators a time
Non Space Marines:
Drukhari
Eldar
Nurgle Daemons+Tzeentch flame daemons, GUO, plaguebearer spam, nurglings, 8 beasts of Nurgle, etc.
Won all of the games so far, was tabled by the Ultramarines list but won on points. Still playing to lose, and the list needs more testing before I can see if it is truly viable.
Also I realized that Nurgle Daemons HATE Moiraxes because of the Rad Cleanser. I only lost a single Armiger and my Enginseer throughout the entire game while tabling my opponent. Rad Cleansers can be scary against the right targets.
Now that's interesting. That's why I like this game, you can fine tune your niche and end up with something different that works well. That being said, I ran the math and was surprised how similar the Valiant was to the Castellan (and that's a bad thing).
Against T7 3+, the Valiant does a total of ~27 average damage compared to the Castellan's ~28. The big issue is that about half the Valiant's damage comes from 12" range weapons. Unfortunately, the Valiant isn't especially better at killing any target. Against Primaris, the Valiant is worse than the Castellan still; its arm weapons kill 4.7 Marines compared to the Castellan's 5.1. The Valiant actually performs worse against hordes too because Castellan's blast weapons kick in for 10.0 kills while the Valiant weapons cap out at 9.2 average kills.
The Valiant is always slightly worse than the Castellan despite costing the same and having 75% worse weapon range.
Even with the -1T from Rad Saturated, the Valiant's total damage against T7(6) 3+ is only 1 point higher than the Castellan's. Likewise, against Primaris the Valiant only kills 1 more Marine than the Castellan.
So, if you just straight swapped the Dominus class and changed nothing else, you'd lose about 3% damage output and quadruple your range. If the Valiant is ever out of range with even a single gun, then a Castellan would have done more damage that game.
That all being said, the Rad Saturation does impressive things for the Moirax. It helps both the important T4 and T7 breakpoints. However, I'd swap the Volkite to the Graviton. They both deal 3.2 wounds (including mortals) to T4(3) 3+, compared to 2.7 without Rad Saturation (a 20% increase). However, the Graviton deals 3.9 wounds to T7(6) 3+ compared to the Volkite's 2 (the Rad Saturation is a 50% damage increase). The Volkite is marginally better against smaller infantry, but the rest of your list is Sulphurhounds so it's redundant.
Im having mixed results just now with anything I test.
Admech seems a hard counter just now. 2 friends had a game the other day and the Admech player nearly removed 2 chaos knights in his first turn
Not much chance to come back from that. Listening to a recent YouTube channel (tabletop tactics) has me hopeful that GW is at least vaguely aware of some of the issues
OK so basic strategy is FW knights excepting volkite move 15" charge+1" and attempt 8" charge T1 (rerolling the castigator)
the slower canis rex and the two hellhounds and volkite moirax go for their objectives
The sentinel manticore and tankcommander go one a peice to the backfield objectives
Other than the sentinel every model is atleast 11W T7 3+ so enemy weapons that are S6 and under are not going to have efficient targets.
Stormstriders - I can't mechanicus my damage away and this boosts my speed giving my knights an 8" rather than 9" charge if my opponents on the line lets the moirax rad potentially hit t1 and negates movement degrading
Frontline fighters +1 Ap within 12 where most of my knights will be is strong on the castigator volkite and claws rad
OK so units
Well originally I was looking at the knight preceptor with the enginwar strat in a close range knight list the las impulsor now outperforms a thermal cannon but with more flexibility. With the three armigers the aura and cost effectiveness seemed good. However it has the drawback that it encourages my knights to block when I often want them to spread out more which means that the aura isn't as frequently used as it first appears
Canis loses the aura, the ironstorm the relic and warlord trait stormstriders and frontline fighter and gains a burden.
So what does he gain well +1BS making him the best antitank knight (as he can benefit from the knight preceptor strat as he has the keywords). With the +1BS more than offsetting the +1AP within 12 the Preceptor would have
+1 WS and a relic gauntlet (Pretty much the paragon gauntlet but with higher variance) But with better feat and less degrading (also great for fighting when it dies)
A dude when he dies
Canis benefits from the imperialis +1 to advance and charge so ends up 1" slower with degrading movement
RR1s vs units with 10+Models situational but with his 2+BS meansan Avg 7hits S6 AP2 dream when you use it
A free reroll per battle round not to be sniffed at
He also saves me 2 CP as I'm not paying for the extra relic/warlord trait as I would on a preceptor
He has the burden but it only effects him 28% of the time shooting at the closest model on to is a draw back after T1 you can often mitigate this by position correctly or killing the closest unit with something else and he has a gun profile to target anything.
So yes there are some drawbacks over the preceptor but he gains from being a killing machine and being slower than the other knights he probably isn't charging t1
The castigator is a Warden with a better profile 4 extra shots and a more consistent/better CC weapon its going into CC so a 2+ armour save and -1 to be hit in CC give it that extra survivability and on the rare occasion its ccd by a knight or monster reducing there attacks is a bonus. Now considering its a 15" move we have a 27" T1 16 shots6 ap3 2 dam not bad in a marine meta
Moirax claw/grav debated with warglaive in CC the moiraxs outperform vs large targets and the warglaives vs small although moiraxs can heroically intervene. Grav is some nice anti marine particularly vs 3 W models or light vehicles again it jostles with the warglaive but its edges it in the current meta
The volkite yes its marginally less effective than the lightning lock but... I had the parts left over and the difference in performance is marginal and I feel I have enough forgeworld knights
As to AM
The custom traits give them rerole one if the dice for each weapon when determine number of shots benefitting everything except the sentinel and built in wound regeneration which is always a bonus
The manticore is broken right now with its support ace giving it a profile of 2d6 S10 Ap2 3Dam no los great for a backfield model.
The tank commander again can absolutely nuke a vehicle as you can strat it to 12shots 3+ rerolling 1s S8 AP3 D2 and it has the range to sit on an objective
The sentinel is cheap and gives a 3rd unit to stick on an objective and sure 6W T6 isn't that tough but considering its nonexistent firepower the enemies antitank should be directed elsewhere.
That leaves the 2 hellhounds - in short the list needed more screen clearance and 12" move 16" range their pretty effective 2d6 shots s6 ap1 d1 and able to rerollW/ignore cover with strats at only 130 pts for 11W T7 3+sv points efficient (and the Multimelta is a bonus. Also while the hellhounds will be mid table and are vulnerable to melee they do have the generosity to explode on a 4+
Interesting write up. BS2 could be pretty clutch. I played a game this evening and whiffed with two crusaders. It was pretty funny how badly it went.
I’m not sure specifically why but they just feel overcosted. Or my rolls are terrible. Gatling gun moving to 3 damage maybe higher AP and a more consistent thermal Cannon would be useful
Ideasweasel wrote: Interesting write up. BS2 could be pretty clutch. I played a game this evening and whiffed with two crusaders. It was pretty funny how badly it went.
I’m not sure specifically why but they just feel overcosted. Or my rolls are terrible. Gatling gun moving to 3 damage maybe higher AP and a more consistent thermal Cannon would be useful
Gatlin Gun needs less reason to be an auto-take IMO. I think it's fine pretty much exactly as it is, and it's still often regarded as the best option.
I could see the Battle Cannon getting 3 damage (and blast... ), but given I havent actually seen anyone running anything that isnt a Crusader or a Warden (or a castellan pre FAQ) I think we need more reason to *not* take the gatlin guns...
Maybe it’s just me. I find more often than not I can point a crusader at something and it does sweet FA. Maybe a couple of wounds. When facing T7 and a minus to hit maybe a -1 damage the Gatling gun feels pretty silly.
It’s probably to do with what armies I’m facing in my area but I never feel the Gatling gun does much. I’m also finding thermal cannons getting 1-2 shots and then failing to wound or bouncing off an invulnerable save happens too consistently to be useful.
Ideasweasel wrote: Maybe it’s just me. I find more often than not I can point a crusader at something and it does sweet FA. Maybe a couple of wounds. When facing T7 and a minus to hit maybe a -1 damage the Gatling gun feels pretty silly.
It’s probably to do with what armies I’m facing in my area but I never feel the Gatling gun does much. I’m also finding thermal cannons getting 1-2 shots and then failing to wound or bouncing off an invulnerable save happens too consistently to be useful.
Maybe it’s me, maybe it’s maybeline
Heh, good meme
Unreliable melta cannons are absolutely something I wanna change. I'd like to be able to run a pair of Errants without sacrificing any kinda reliability.
I just find Gatling are universally the best option at my local, even in the tournements. Granted, we don't have an awful lot of negatives to damage, so maybe thats a factor, it's probably not just you.
I just want options man, thats all. I could see them getting a range buff, tbf, maybe going up to 48", because as I remamber, Knights have nothing between 36" and 72" currently?
Ideasweasel wrote: Interesting write up. BS2 could be pretty clutch. I played a game this evening and whiffed with two crusaders. It was pretty funny how badly it went.
I’m not sure specifically why but they just feel overcosted. Or my rolls are terrible. Gatling gun moving to 3 damage maybe higher AP and a more consistent thermal Cannon would be useful
Gatlin Gun needs less reason to be an auto-take IMO. I think it's fine pretty much exactly as it is, and it's still often regarded as the best option.
I could see the Battle Cannon getting 3 damage (and blast... ), but given I havent actually seen anyone running anything that isnt a Crusader or a Warden (or a castellan pre FAQ) I think we need more reason to *not* take the gatlin guns...
Just my 2 cents...
The Warden gattleing is broken if you can strat the problem is you need to be to close to get there T1 and thats not reliable enough for me but a good consideration.
The crusader like the valiant and castellan struggle with points/W. The crusader is great if your going first and often squished if your going second but that squish represents 25% of your army compared to 20% in a preceptor. The thermal cannon is superb in the mirror but its off meta atleast in my area astartes and sob represent the bulk of armies. Conversely the battle cannon is less efficient overall and makes the point/W situation worse.
Its partly why I settled on a castigator. I mean its a gattleing cannon with 4 extra shots its cheaper than a crusader with more wounds.
I also think you have to pick a strategy for your knights and by that i mean are you trying to wipe your opponent in which case shooting efficiency and krast is the primary consideration or are you trying to win the mission in which case I want to block my opponents in so you can outscored turns 1-3 which means getting in close and that means melee knights and a more durable build is optimal
Range wise not without choosing fury of mars relic or looking at forgeworld stuff.
I feel you on the errant front. I’d love to run those guys but have seen them whiff. Even the preceptor using the auto 6 shots at 18” whiffs. I must just be a blind commander
Maybe a minimum shots or damage on the thermals is the way to go. I reckon If my local area was more horde friendly and we had Orks etc I’d love the Gatling cannons more. One thing I wanted for knights was a way to mitigate being alpha struck from the likes of Admech//guard/tau/other shooting armies
Would a diverting power to shields stratagem to mitigate damage be fluffy? Maybe at the cost of reducing damage output the next turn or something.
Playing on a board with obscuring terrain and getting melted through windows without reply is a bit rage inducing lol. I played a game versus a friends ironhands leviathan dread and friends yesterday. I was pretty confident a Raven Castellan and 2 crusaders could kill it so I penned his army in his deployment zone by scout moving the Admech dogs.
I went first and pointed my army at his leviathan and it survived with 2 wounds. It turned round ignoring the fact it was crippled and removed 20 wounds from the closest crusader. Now sure I probably should have kept back 33” and played it a bit slower but you would think my entire army should be able to remove a single dread.
Could you imagine if we had access to some of the toys marines have. What I’d give to get -1 damage, be able to interact with terrain at all, or boost the damage of a crusader or something equivalent.
I think the weapon profiles for knights feel a bit meh. I look at the toys in my other armies and wish we had a revamp. (Admech is my other alternative army)
Ideasweasel wrote: Maybe it’s just me. I find more often than not I can point a crusader at something and it does sweet FA. Maybe a couple of wounds. When facing T7 and a minus to hit maybe a -1 damage the Gatling gun feels pretty silly.
It’s probably to do with what armies I’m facing in my area but I never feel the Gatling gun does much. I’m also finding thermal cannons getting 1-2 shots and then failing to wound or bouncing off an invulnerable save happens too consistently to be useful.
Maybe it’s me, maybe it’s maybeline
Thermal cannon 3.5 shots - 1/3 to hit - the wound role - 1/3 T5+ then halved or - a third if they have a invulnerability you should get 0.8 through assuming 4++ and a T7+ target 1.02 if rerolling wounds
Las impulsor 6 shots- 1/3 to hit with s12 -1/3 vs t7+ then - half or third based on their invul 1.33 through assuming 4++ and a t7+ target
1.7 through for canis rex
Thing is its a really high variance weapon but both weapons double there effectiveness if shooting something like a russ that has no inv.
Its a pity you can't take a Las impulsor and avenger
As to a damage mitigation strat the problem is a bit like 3++ it makes the knights to good vs 2 damage weapon on a questoris its 24 extra wounds vs 3 wound weaponry its 12 extra
where as currently I agree there not durable enough if it were me I would just alter the profiles 30W for ,a questoris 15 for an armiger 35 for a dominus/cerastus 40 for an acastus.
Id love to see Thermal Cannons get a buff. As it stands now the cannon the size of a buick is only superior on range when compared to a multimelta. It reall needs a solid buff to Str 10 and something more like 2d3 shots and probably also have a minimum damage of 3 (or better yet, 2d6). The thing should be scary and melt tanks like butter. Its designed to kill other knights and should be in the ranks of a scaled down version of a Reaver melta cannon
I never even noticed Canis Rex had 2+/2+ hit rolls. He's actually surprisingly well rounded, and doesn't need any additional relic/trait investment. Against 10+ model units, his feet deal 9.6 wounds, compared to a normal Preceptor's 6.7. Against vehicles, his gauntlet does ~18 wounds on average (compared to 10). His high powered Las does 11.7 average damage before saves (compared to 9.4). The worst thing about him is that he's Questor Imperialis so can't use Machine Spirit Resurgent.
Ideasweasel wrote: Maybe it’s just me. I find more often than not I can point a crusader at something and it does sweet FA. Maybe a couple of wounds. When facing T7 and a minus to hit maybe a -1 damage the Gatling gun feels pretty silly.
It’s probably to do with what armies I’m facing in my area but I never feel the Gatling gun does much. I’m also finding thermal cannons getting 1-2 shots and then failing to wound or bouncing off an invulnerable save happens too consistently to be useful.
Unreliable melta cannons are absolutely something I wanna change. I'd like to be able to run a pair of Errants without sacrificing any kinda reliability.
Right now, in practice, you just need to use your command re-roll on the number of shots (if less than 3). I agree and think a lot of D6 weapons are too swingy. I'd change the Thermal Cannon to 2D3 shots, in addition to the 2+d6 at half range buff. With the strat and 2+D6, it would deal 11.5 damage compared to 10 with D6 shots. It's a 15% damage increase, but the average becomes way more consistent, and it can actually beat the Las-Impulsor now.
I think Knights are doubly suffering because the chasis directly compete in function and it cuts the already few options in half. Statistically, a Castellan is just better than a Valiant. A Warden is just better than a Paladin. A Preceptor is just better than an Errant. Worse, the better ones are cheaper and specialists are not rewarded.
Ideasweasel, you've got an unfortunately anti-Knight meta. You'd have to do something pretty drastic to compete against it. The way to get through -1 damage is just to do big hits. The Crusader's Avenger is a liability if you aren't against Primaris, so you'll want either Errants or Preceptors. That also means close combat, so consider a Gallant. A Raven Castellan should still melt Dreadnoughts with both weapons, though more Shieldbreakers is probably better for you.
The list is all big hits with fast and powerful melee. It's extremely CP hungry though. On turn 1 the Castellan wants 3CP, the Gallant wants 3 for Full Tilt and charge re-roll, the Preceptor and Warglaives each want 1, plus another 2 CP to give Rotate and Resurgent. Once everything is in melee on turn 2, you're less hungry, but you're also spent. You'll basically just be able to keep up Resurgent or Rotate.
I still find the Castellan a hard sell. I don't deny it shooting is awesome when you go first but if you go second its such a big chunk of your points. It means your building to a coinflip.
I agree canis is well rounded and I think if I was taking 3 big knights I would always take him in the third slot right now if nothing more than to save 4 CP on upgrades
I'm also not a fan of a gallant in the current meta not when a preceptor is 5 points more or canis 30. I mean is the extra A really worth the extra gun and in that list just stopping the gallant for a second preceptor doesn't require any other changes you have the spare 5 pts and as a bonus two knights with rr auras means you can fan the warglaives more and means they will benefit for a greater portion of the game
The Gallant is a distraction Carnifex in that list specifically against a Dreadnought spam meta. It takes the entirety of most armies' shooting to kill a Knight, and killing a Gallant minimizes your loss. As a Full Tilt push threat, the Gallant inflicts 13.5 damage on average to T7 5++, while a Preceptor (or other Knight) does ~9 average. Mind you, because the damage is dealt in increments of 6, that roughly means the Preceptor deals 6 damage 66% of the time and 12 or more 33% (plus some vanishingly small chance to deal 0). Meanwhile the Gallant gets 12 damage ~60% of the time. So a Gallant is about twice as likely to actually kill a Dreadnought, even though the average damage is only 50% higher.
In House Raven specifically, the first Preceptor is slightly better than a Gallant if you add the Las-Impulsor with strat since it deals an average 6 damage. Without the strat, the Las-Impulsor doesn't reach a break-point to improve the likelihood of killing a 10-12 wound model in the following melee. Obviously, with Raven you can't advance and shoot so your threat range is insufficient.
Canis Rex is an interesting case because his fist isn't flat damage so the Las-Impuslor does contribute to chance to kill. Without the strat, his gun deals 4.5 damage, and his fist averages ~12. The likelihood of getting 7.5 damage to kill most Dreads is extremely high, like 90%+. However, he can't shoot and advance and only gets his Questor Imperialis move bonus, so his actual charge threat range is pretty limited.
Also, despite using a Preceptor, Rex doesn't have the Mentor rule.
In conclusion, a Gallant is far and away the best Full Tilt threat.
EDIT: I guess if you do go for double Raven Preceptor, you can just push both and choose to strat the one you Full Tilt. Your reliability goes up, however your total damage goes down in any game where the Gallant and Preceptor would survive turn 1. Plus you lose the opportunity to take an ObSec Freeblade since you need Raven.
Non strat las impulsor does 4.6 avg dam to t7 or 5.8 to t6
The chainsword does 11.2 damage on average or 15.7 if you upgrade to ravager
The gallant 16.8 avg damage
Yes the variance is higher but... not taking ravager vs t7 your looking at 15.8 dam vs 16.8 and taking ravager or hitting t6 the gallant is outperformed
A preceptor in the face is going to be just as distracting for a competent opponent as a gallant. You can still obsec freeblade it
Going first you can forgo the shooting and full tilt and going second you probably don't need to full tilt. But both knights are likely to kill one dreadnought in melee without enough damage to spread to a second target. The shooting to a second target is just a bonus as is the extra aura
If you make the Preceptor a Freeblade it would also lose the ability to grant rerolls with it's Mentor ability, as it loses the Household keyword that the Armigers look for.
Knights need obsec. The fear of knight buffs is unwarranted. When even the most ardent knight haters in my gaming circle are starting to feel for them you know it’s not a great time lol. I played against a harlies list yesterday that threw its entire army in my face turn 1. I did as best as I could screening out with a frontal row of 24 Admech raiders.
I even managed to shred a lot of his army but the problem is this. He can have a single model stand on an objective that I’m on and it’s denied. Blocking a base and heroic intervention is one thing but when he charges you with 4+ units on each objective the game is over as you score 5 or zero primaries
I think if I went first I’d maybe do better but I’m straight up jealous of the things other armies can do. And despite usually being an optimist I’m at the point where I think shelving my knights and playing something else for a while is best. Getting a bit burned out on 9th edition. It seems some armies are tailor made for this edition and some are truly left out in the cold.
Not a specific gripe about harlies though as they suffered for the last 3 years. I think swapping to pure Admech till our codex might be best for my tournament fun. I do have one in 3 weeks and am considering giving the knights one last hurrah before a period of rest.
Mono knights doesnt work at the moment but all those things you complain about you could do too.
Knights like in 8th or 7th is a soup army.If you want to be able to do what admech do nothing stops you takeing 27 raiders alongside your knights.
The problem as far as scoreing goes is its start of turn so even if you clear the objective in your turn you dont score and obsec wouldnt solve that when you have one model
I think it should be like AOS giants. A knight counts as 10/15 models with obsec.
Knight soup in 8th was a much more nourishing dish. Your not wrong with highlighting another gripe I have with this edition. Not much reason to want to go second currently
DarkHound wrote: Now that's interesting. That's why I like this game, you can fine tune your niche and end up with something different that works well. That being said, I ran the math and was surprised how similar the Valiant was to the Castellan (and that's a bad thing).
Against T7 3+, the Valiant does a total of ~27 average damage compared to the Castellan's ~28. The big issue is that about half the Valiant's damage comes from 12" range weapons. Unfortunately, the Valiant isn't especially better at killing any target. Against Primaris, the Valiant is worse than the Castellan still; its arm weapons kill 4.7 Marines compared to the Castellan's 5.1. The Valiant actually performs worse against hordes too because Castellan's blast weapons kick in for 10.0 kills while the Valiant weapons cap out at 9.2 average kills.
The Valiant is always slightly worse than the Castellan despite costing the same and having 75% worse weapon range.
Even with the -1T from Rad Saturated, the Valiant's total damage against T7(6) 3+ is only 1 point higher than the Castellan's. Likewise, against Primaris the Valiant only kills 1 more Marine than the Castellan.
So, if you just straight swapped the Dominus class and changed nothing else, you'd lose about 3% damage output and quadruple your range. If the Valiant is ever out of range with even a single gun, then a Castellan would have done more damage that game.
That all being said, the Rad Saturation does impressive things for the Moirax. It helps both the important T4 and T7 breakpoints. However, I'd swap the Volkite to the Graviton. They both deal 3.2 wounds (including mortals) to T4(3) 3+, compared to 2.7 without Rad Saturation (a 20% increase). However, the Graviton deals 3.9 wounds to T7(6) 3+ compared to the Volkite's 2 (the Rad Saturation is a 50% damage increase). The Volkite is marginally better against smaller infantry, but the rest of your list is Sulphurhounds so it's redundant.
The Castellan versus Valiant is always interesting to me. I enjoy the Valiant more in 9th because of the value you get from his Overwatch and deter heavy melee armies since my army doesn't have MUCH in the way of melee. The strats out of Engine War (-2 to charge and mortal wound explosion) also make him a more of an interesting choice for me over the Castellan. I find his overall kit simply more useful versus the higher damaging Castellan. I also despise varied weapons, 1d6 is not an acceptable number of shots for any solo weapon (Sulphurhounds have 7 in a unit for instance, making them much more likely to strike the average). 2d6 is more manageable at least. I'd rather just take the one shot from the Harpoon and be done with it, I know I've got the one shot at least and it deals flat damage. The less variance the better, it makes the Knight easier to predict.
As for the Moiraxes I thought long and hard between Graviton and the Volkite, I ultimately went with the Volkite because I needed an answer for Harlequins and Daemons. It meant weakening my army versus Gravis spam, which admittedly I may end up regretting, but if I went into a Harlequins game and they did their usual biker spam+transport spam, I couldn't see how I could manage with the Graviton's profile since their armor is a 4++, and while the Moirax melee is good against vehicles it cannot be relied on to fight something with a 4++ there is simply too much wasted AP and not enough attacks. Tack onto that the rise in Daemon soup, the Beasts of Nurgle lists in particular, I felt the potential waste of AP on the Graviton, the higher variance in shots, and potential waste of its higher damage versus 3+ Sv units, made it an overall worse weapon while definitely superior against Gravis Marines and Vehicles lacking an invuln.
Perhaps a mix of the two would be the correct answer? I really don't know. I am going to the Renegade Open at the beginning of November so we'll see if I regret Graviton versus Volkite.
Knights need obsec. The fear of knight buffs is unwarranted. When even the most ardent knight haters in my gaming circle are starting to feel for them you know it’s not a great time lol. I played against a harlies list yesterday that threw its entire army in my face turn 1. I did as best as I could screening out with a frontal row of 24 Admech raiders.
I even managed to shred a lot of his army but the problem is this. He can have a single model stand on an objective that I’m on and it’s denied. Blocking a base and heroic intervention is one thing but when he charges you with 4+ units on each objective the game is over as you score 5 or zero primaries
I think if I went first I’d maybe do better but I’m straight up jealous of the things other armies can do. And despite usually being an optimist I’m at the point where I think shelving my knights and playing something else for a while is best. Getting a bit burned out on 9th edition. It seems some armies are tailor made for this edition and some are truly left out in the cold.
Not a specific gripe about harlies though as they suffered for the last 3 years. I think swapping to pure Admech till our codex might be best for my tournament fun. I do have one in 3 weeks and am considering giving the knights one last hurrah before a period of rest.
I have tried pure AdMech recently, I will say if you do not have Breachers or Priests, or both, do not bother. I ran Skitarii spam and Skitarii are simply not designed for 9th edition. They get pushed around too easily. I basically could table opponents but when their army screamed forward without a care in the world while my Skitarii horde with Disintigrators and Dunecrawlers had to hang back and kill them it was game over on points. All opponents had to do was survive until turn four and they would score enough to not care about their army getting wiped off the board. Happened time and time again.
I have found 9th is all about pushing the mid board with almost everything you have, fast, and then surviving. This is partly why I turned to Armigers is because they are durable for their points and they are fast and killy enough.
Breachers satisfy this for AdMech and Priests to a lesser extent. They aren't fast but they are durable, obsec, and killy enough. So if you have Breachers you'll do great, if you don't or hate the model and refuse to run them like me, don't bother, you will not win games.
DarkHound wrote: Knights had another top showing at Ork-tober Fest 2020. Jamie Horsley came in 7th, running exclusively Armigers and two squads of Intercessors.
My best guess at the purpose of the Intercessors is they're for outflanking and doing actions.
Well done to the chap for making them work.
Unfortunately The changes to Moriax as of the compendium do make them slightly weaker vrs Gravis and Outrider spam.
Would be interesting to see the breakdown but intercessors are pretty much a solid way to bully any infantry off objectives and mitigate the risk of someone just trying to flood the objectives to win.
Anyone else find the updated magaera a little interesting now? It's pricey at 480 but that sweep attack with the claw is kind of silly and the lightning cannon at 8 shots is nifty.
I'm liking the word that Moirax went down in points. They lost a couple points of speed and a damage on the grav-pulsars, but they still seem like a good deal to me.
Khornatedemon wrote: Anyone else find the updated magaera a little interesting now? It's pricey at 480 but that sweep attack with the claw is kind of silly and the lightning cannon at 8 shots is nifty.
I think that is a very solid upgrade, definitely worth a look. For the list I have with Luminary Suffused Sulphurhounds I think it would help mitigate its lower strength. Glad I picked one of those up recently!
Dead happy to see the Atrapos profile get a good buffing, as I love the model and the idea of the knight.
It's down to 520pts now, which places it in Crusader territory.
It's kept its great 'Singularity' profile - 36", 4+1d6 shots, S14, -4, flat 3D. That's tailor-made for the gravis meta.
Finally, it gained a sweep attack similar to the Magaera - x3 attacks, S6, -2, flat 3D.
I tend towards Chaos Knights more, and so obviously that CC attack is far more interesting to me than you Imperial chaps, but overall it's a great steer away from being solely anti-titanic, towards anti-gravis.
Automatically Appended Next Post: More generally I can see the FW knights being very strong picks now, especially with soup detachments. They don't really need traits or relics to be good, many of them have an invuln in CC, and many of them now have a sweep attack. Stack that all together and you have a group of CP-light, anti-marine units that can go 4++ in CC.
I think it's to give the Lancer a specialised role and to incentivise people to take Landstrider & House Terryn, given that those things have been lacking somewhat of late
5 warglaives with meltas
1 hellverin
I Castellan
1 Preceptor
This was not my finest moment at a GT (I usually seem to finish 3-2) Went 2-3 this time, and was lower middle of the pack. I did get best sportsman award. I was quite pleased about that.
I found the wins I had were very one sided, and the losses were very hard to overcome. Playing armies that can deny primaries and play the mission was a challenge and apart from being demolished in my first game the losses were down to low scoring on primaries
First game was against a friends chaos knights and he had never rolled better, I had never rolled worse. Hilarity ensued
I’m giving the knights a small rest to play other things. However playing a GT with knights meant every game I had tons of left over time to drink beer which is always good
Anyone else played any tournies recently, if so how did you find it?
Too bad about the results, but congrats on the games played. I can't help but be a twinge envious. I've mostly stopped working on my models for want of any opportunity. We've been isolated for 8 months, and I expect we'll be lucky if we're halfway through.
Do you think running an ObSec Knight or 2 would have helped?
Game 1 vs chaos knights. Obsec wouldn't have helped. Not enough terrain on the table and he was so jammy with his shots. I backlines the Castellan and he just rolled almost all 5 and 6’s and I rolled 1 and 2’s. It’s funny cause he has good firepower but I was more scared of getting into range of his melee. All I needed to do was hold back the initial wave, survive and then blast him on the counter.
Sadly that didn’t happen. But its funny cause we have a bit of history of him rolling terrible (against me) and people inspecting my dice for miniature pixies controlling the outcome. It's a running gag in my gaming group that I roll suspiciously well. so whilst I may have beaten him plenty in practice games ultimately the true bragging rights come from the tournament. I got crushed 24 points to his 89 haha
Game 2 was against a tau player. He had a weird list with 2 tiger sharks and a couple of smaller fliers. He had built a list that wanted to go first. He actually conceded not long after I had won the roll off lol. I think we played about 30 minutes and then he was done. He went first against my friend the chaos knight player and absolutely blitzed him. Obsec wouldnt have mattered
Game 3 against harlequins. Yes. It would have helped. 100%
I had nearly tabled my opponent(also a friend but he had been keeping his list closely under wraps for months and haven’t played him) I nearly tabled him but lost on primaries. I still think It would have been close, maybe I’d still have lost but I would definitely had a better chance. He managed once to
stand 3.1” away outside of heroic intervention on a knight. Also armigers folded too easily so I think having T8 would have been the better call
Game 4 was against an awesome chap Andrew who runs an event called Voidhammer. Super nice guy and a fun match but he got very unlucky and every dice I touched rolled hot. My list was very well suited to deal with his and I went second. Not enough terrain on this table. Favourable mission and map type. I just backlined/hid my stuff. He moved up and I shot him off the board. I hope to play him again for a rematch with a better balanced table. It possibly might have been useful but the game swung my way too early to tell
Game 5 was against a friends dreaded dreadnought list. It was one last hurrah using the old leviathan rules. He went first and threw his invictors into my face. He rolled hot, I rolled not. It was so bad he was pretty much soloing an Armiger with a single invictor. By the start of my turn 1 I was penned in on dawn of war deployment with not many places to hide. I was in trouble but with a bit of luck and two rounds of an order of companions Castellan I managed to get back into the game. The wheels fell off around turn 3 when the Castellan decided to whiff almost completely. But I had a last desperate play tying up his leviathan and a tank and denying him some primaries.
Ultimately a loss that was never about the mission, it was always about who went first and absolutely murderised the other one. If I had gone first he thinks I would have won. I did enjoy that game the most because even though it lasted briefly it was the only game that didn’t feel one sided throughout. There was a small period where it was tough to call. Hope, hope dies last.
My knights tended to be go big or go home. Not many close games but lack of terrain played a part. I’m absolutely over D3 and D6 weapons though. If I play knights I’m bringing 9 LL moiraxes now because having 5-6 shots from thermal spears on 5 armigers all then roll 1’s 2’s occasionally into 1’s and 2’s is utterly soul destroying. Or in the case of the harlies game having a 620 model literally not do a single damage on a turn of shooting....
Knights whilst fun to play feel like they currently don't fit the edition ( for me ). I haven’t figured out how to win on primaries and feel ironically it’s probably best to swap to an easier army that can interact with terrain and the edition to dust off the skills
Then hopefully return to them in a few months with a shiny new codex, and dare I say it a chance to win
The new campaign book claims to have new rules for Imperial Knights among others. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that these will be Crusade rules, but it would be really nice if it was some kind of ObSec. I think that's the single biggest thing holding Knights back right now.
Have someone tried to max out the ObSec relic (Banner of Macharius) and Freeblade traits?
I was playing an ObSec knight list in 8th (I've got no Armiger yet) but Covid stops me from game in 9th. There is a reason none is trying that, or is the long tail of the meta?
It's tempting, but I think there are two problems with the banner/freeblade abilities. First, the banner is only Imperialis, not Mechanicus so it blocks out the houses like Raven, Krast, or Tarannis. Second, its only one knight, and that's probably the first one they will kill as a result.
bmsattler wrote: The new campaign book claims to have new rules for Imperial Knights among others. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that these will be Crusade rules, but it would be really nice if it was some kind of ObSec. I think that's the single biggest thing holding Knights back right now.
They said the book of rust will be akin to the vigilus books, so who knows what it will end up being. There is a separate book called plague purge that has the crusade rules so looks like we'll be getting both
I know the Imperial limitation is bad if you like the Mechanicus, but I already used Terryn (for the yummy relic cannon) so I never had this issue (I always played Imperial during the entire 8th - I liked the better offense and the Stratagems more).
That said, I can attest that during all 8th my enemies priorities were always the Gallant in their face T1 (don't remember exactly the charge range after advancing but was ridiculous... like 21-30") or the Crusader in the backfield with the improved ion shield.
Probably a good player will behave differently in 9th, but I find that usually players care more about killing power...
Unfortunately I feel that also 2 ObSec Knight in 9th won't be enough (they fold easily). But maybe a mixed detachment (losing household traits to specialise in Relics and Stratagems) can work now that FW knight don't need relic and can carry the Banner.
So just to poll people's experiences, what house works best for Armiger spam? If I wanted to do 10 Armigers and a Preceptor as pure knights, am I better off with the defense of Taranis, offense of say Krast, or something in between using a custom house? Those aren't my only options, just the ones that immediately jump to mind.
Armigers really like the custom houses for a few reasons. The big melee buffs that don't apply to Titanic Feet do apply to sweep attacks, making them extremely efficient. Armigers generally aren't efficient for the House stratagems or relics, so you don't miss them.
For comparison, the best house is Krast which gives +22% to hit in the first round. The trait Noble Combatants alone is +17% at all times. Plus, the Preceptor steps on Krast's toes a bit; if you have one nearby, Krast's benefit is effectively halved while a custom house would gain +12%.
My top picks for a mostly warglaive horde are Noble Combatants, Glorified History, and Defiant Fury. Depending on your meta, you should consider Slayers of Beasts, Guardians of the Frontier, and Exacting Charge. Stormstriders can also be good if you're against a lot of shooting-castles and your crippled Armigers are having trouble making it to combat.
For a mostly shooting army, Frontline Fighters is a must (it's the single best house buff for shooting). Glorified History is a decent second pick, but you could split the difference and get a melee buff since you're within 12". Consequently, you'll want a mostly Moiraxes.
Defensively, Taranis is the essentially +2 wounds; it's better than Survivors of Strife, which is +1. But both are pretty small potatoes compared to the huge damage increases you could pick up instead. After all, they can't hurt you if they're dead.
I really appreciate the thoughtful answer there! I hadn't considered how the Preceptor rerolls might make Krast less attractive, but I agree whole-heartedly.
To refine the concept a little, I'm looking at taking mostly Moirax siege claw+Volkite with a couple Lightning Locks thrown in here or there. The Warglaives seem to be a little too swingy with their Thermal Spears that also can't shoot into combat.
I've also been eying House Mortan for it's +1 attack and heroic intervention. Unless and until we get some kind of consistent ObSec, that seems like another way to help hold objectives.
Overall though, Frontline Fighters + ? seems to be very attractive. I know I'm missing things though, which is why I enjoy these discussions.
The trick to Warglaives is you need to charge multiple units to stack Pack Tactics and Pack Hunters. You should get +2 attacks for 3 Warglaives most turns if you plan your movement right. The Thermal Spear is just a bonus, I don't really treat it like dedicated anti-tank. You'll either plan to kill tanks in close combat, or you'll bring additional shooting.
House Mortan is just +17% to hit in the first round, it doesn't add any ability to Heroically Intervene. As I said, Noble Combatants alone is the same buff, but applies all the time. Only Krast is stronger.
You'll have to fill out your list to figure out which other trait would be best. You'll definitely want to be careful and check the math on the Moirax loadouts. Each of their weapons is very specialized and you don't want to leave a big hole in your offense.
I want to start Knights even when they are in a bad spot right now.
Just one things. I dont wanne use FW! I know the Knights are good and stuff but .... no.
My first List looks like this. I dont want to go on tournaments with them!
Spoiler:
Super-Heavy Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights)
Configuration
Battle Size
Selections: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment CP Household Choice
Selections: House <Mixed>, Questor Allegiance <Mixed>
Lord of War
Armiger Warglaives
Armiger Warglaive
Selections: Heavy Stubber
Armiger Warglaive
Selections: Heavy Stubber
Knight Castellan
Two Siegebreaker Cannons and Two Shieldbreaker Missiles
Selections: 2x Shieldbreaker Missile, 2x Twin Siegebreaker Cannon
Knight Crusader
Selections: Character (Knight Lance), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom (Krast): The Headsman's Mark, Warlord, Warlord Trait (Krast): First Knight
Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon w/ Heavy Stubber
Selections: Heavy Stubber, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon
Knight Errant
Selections: Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Thermal Cannon
Freeblade
Selections: Freeblade Questor Mechanicus
Qualities and Burdens
Selections: Random Burdens, Random Qualities
The plan behind this list to hold the home objective with the scions. (or backfield if the opponent goes Full ham)The Crusader and Castellan run mid Board, the errant and the warglaives Push to the front.
I am Not shure about the artefact, houses and stuff.
Could you please help figure it out?
Bless you for taking up knights, and bless you for your name
Is the Castellan house Raven? I know there was some talk of mixing households to gain access to obsec on a couple of knights but I cannot confirm how effective it is.
I have always picked a household and stuck with it. Engine war Custom households can be quite fun too.
Personally if you are running a castellan raven for advance and shoot and the big bad, the order of companions stratagem to reroll anything that is a 1.
Someone did the maths and I think it increases castellan firepower by 55% or something like that.
I recently attended a tournament with knights and I found the castellan is a bit of a sink. He either wins or loses games for you so be careful. Cause if you go second and he gets sniped turn 1.....its rough.
Are people not really doing helverins anymore? I have 4 so I want them to be good naturally. I kind of figured the flat 3 damage would help them wipe out things like Eradicators especially with the perceptor rerolls.
generalchaos34 wrote: Are people not really doing helverins anymore? I have 4 so I want them to be good naturally. I kind of figured the flat 3 damage would help them wipe out things like Eradicators especially with the perceptor rerolls.
I very rarely run my knights but I have yet to write a list that doesnt have both of mine in it.
I'm leaning toward running the Hoard of Armigers approach to my knights lately, I just cant find a configuration im happy with.
Hey guys, im interested in perhaps starting a Knight Army to either run with or replace my Imperial Guard (due to finances). Was just curious what are the Crusade? Or is better to stick with the Paladin and Errant variants?
Also I keep seeing people bring up Moirax's, what is the best loadout that yall have found for them?
With the moirax its really opponent based or what you intend to use it for
Lightning locks generally outperform volkite vs infantry but the difference is marginal
Gravs will perform better vs gravis or vehicles
Either can be good on an objective holder
The claw is solid as a 1 of for a knight looking to get close that and grav outperforms warglaives vs big targets but underperformed vs infantry
They got nerfed in imperial armour so they are more an equal choice than a better one
The paladin and errant are both weak variants
Preceptor or canis rex is better than errant pick for anti vehicle
Warden is better than paladin pick for anti marine
Crusader thermal is the best backfield shooter but it costs more and is no more durable
(All three should really have the ironstorm missile launcher at 15pts its a steal)
gmaleron wrote: Hey guys, im interested in perhaps starting a Knight Army to either run with or replace my Imperial Guard (due to finances). Was just curious what are the Crusade? Or is better to stick with the Paladin and Errant variants?
Also I keep seeing people bring up Moirax's, what is the best loadout that yall have found for them?
As I have repeatedly said on many different forums and discussions, the correct answer to which Knight configuration is best is always magnets.
U02dah4 wrote: With the moirax its really opponent based or what you intend to use it for
Lightning locks generally outperform volkite vs infantry but the difference is marginal
Gravs will perform better vs gravis or vehicles
Either can be good on an objective holder
The claw is solid as a 1 of for a knight looking to get close that and grav outperforms warglaives vs big targets but underperformed vs infantry
They got nerfed in imperial armour so they are more an equal choice than a better one
The paladin and errant are both weak variants
Preceptor or canis rex is better than errant pick for anti vehicle
Warden is better than paladin pick for anti marine
Crusader thermal is the best backfield shooter but it costs more and is no more durable
(All three should really have the ironstorm missile launcher at 15pts its a steal)
Ironstorm yes, completely forgot about that thing.... my bad.
Would you think it was worth having 1 Moirax with Volkite/Claw and one with Twin Tesla? Or would it be better to run them both with Tesla/Claw and leave the long range marine killing to the Helverins??
Its an arbitrary choice based more on the rest of your army composition if your going twin tesla your moirax is intended to sit on an objective and provide firesupport
If you use a claw your intending to run at their lines and different houses lend themselves to different strategies.
I would often use tesla as an alternative to helverins rather than a supplement. With claw/grav being the alternative to the warglaive (although claw/tesla could also be good)
The alternative to consider if money is a consideration is that when you buy from FW you either go Volkite/Claw, twin tesla or by individual weapons. This often means you get left with a spair couple of volkites and its pretty easy to swap them onto a helvarin chasis (its not quite perfect but the dimensions are the same and noone is likely to complain) and while worse than tesla the difference is miniscule.
My reasoning for the above question is that each can do something different - Warglaives good for really hard targets, Helverins good at Elite Unit clearing, and then Moirax can be modified for Chaff or extra hard stuff.
I'm actually thinking Tesla/Claw on them because the gun and flamer are both really good for clearing swathes of light targets
I have no interest in Grav, they have no real targets at my local that I wouldnt rather be pointing Helverins at, and as nice as Volkite is for killing marines you have pointed out it's not entirely necessary...
Yeah, I think Tesla/Claw is going to be my loudout, but again, I may magnetise and experiment
By themselves they will be of limited utility. With a few other AdMech units they are worth looking at. Examples include the Phophsor-hound and the Raiders. Thing is, once you start going down the AdMech rabbit hole you can find units that do just about anything the knights do better.
I found one thing when starting knights, always magnetise. A loadout that's brings victory one edition, brings shame upon a knight in the next (plus the emperor/machine god may provide glorious new arm weapon options in future) Hopefully the next codex will bring GLORY to knights everywhere. It seems tough to win an not ally also when i have played, my guard serfs were needed to hold objectives. I pray that in the next codex, house serfs are permitted to follow knights into battle if only to polish their armour and fire of the occasional lasgun shot.
AdMech cavalry and such helps a little, but not as much as I'd like. I've still got a few ideas rattling around with various combinations of Knights and other Imperium forces to shore up some of our weaknesses, but I'll admit I'm just being stubborn.
nevertellmetheodds wrote: In the new FAQ they didn't add 2+D6 to the thermal cannon rules again... Maybe they are leaving it with the old melta rules for some reason?!
GW hasn't updated most of the weapons that don't cross over with marine's yet.
Though having 1 rule for melta guns and 1 rule for therma spears and therma cannons on the same models is not the best I'll agree.
I just wanted to double-check my understanding of a rules interaction. The warlord trait 'Cold Eradication' has you roll an extra dice and discard one dice each time you determine the number of attacks for a random weapon (eg Heavy D6).
The House Raven Stratagem 'Order of Companions' lets you reroll all 1s in the shooting phase.
If I use both at the same time I'd get to reroll any 1's that showed up on any of the dice to determine number of shots before having to choose which one I drop, right?
bmsattler wrote: I just wanted to double-check my understanding of a rules interaction. The warlord trait 'Cold Eradication' has you roll an extra dice and discard one dice each time you determine the number of attacks for a random weapon (eg Heavy D6).
The House Raven Stratagem 'Order of Companions' lets you reroll all 1s in the shooting phase.
If I use both at the same time I'd get to reroll any 1's that showed up on any of the dice to determine number of shots before having to choose which one I drop, right?
You'd roll an extra dice to generate number of shots, in this case 2D6 drop one, and then you take that number, roll the hits, and reroll the 1s in that number of hits.
I believe bmsattler"s interpretation is correct. OoC triggers before you determine shots and explicitly allows rerolling any 1s that come up for determining number of shots on variable rate of fire weapons.
Have been playing an armiger horde with admech and so far it’s been doing extremely well. I’m starting to think an custome forge world for the knights would be better then krast. I was thinking the exploding 6’s to hit in combat and the other one being leave combat and charge or shoot at a -1. I have 7 warglaves and 4 lightning lock moirax in the list
I've found the -1 AP shooting at targets within 12 inches custom trait really makes the Moirax shine. I run mine with either claw and Lightning Locks or dual LL. AP -1 on the rad cleanser on the claw makes a surprising difference, and since I'm up close the LL are often AP-3 as well.
I run that with the fall back and shoot at -1 and I've had success. I havent tried the exploding 6's in combat yet, so let me know how that works out for you.
I magnetized my armigers and have a total of 12 between Moirax and Helverin/Warglaive. I usually run an admech patrol for obsec and extra bodies. Ive tried various combinations of Vanguard, Hoplites, and Raiders but havent settled down on a combination I like yet.
I’m just starting knights but was thinking of Custodes as allies (shield captain plus a couple of storm shield squads for 400ish points). All Custodes have obsec but the major advantage as allies would be that where adding in skitarii or astra militarum gives your opponent good targets for their chaff clearing weapons (while their AT hits your knights), adding Custodes means that their chaff clearance is pretty ineffectual and they have to split their AT fire.
Is there any particular decent warlord trait to take when all you are taking is the smaller armigers ? I have tried to +2 to advance in charge but it does not come up in too many games. The extra CP and reroll is kind of nice. The only other thing that could be worth it it’s just the 4 up inv
IVIOOSE wrote: Is there any particular decent warlord trait to take when all you are taking is the smaller armigers ? I have tried to +2 to advance in charge but it does not come up in too many games. The extra CP and reroll is kind of nice. The only other thing that could be worth it it’s just the 4 up inv
Are you taking any specific house or special armigers (Moirax?). If krast, then first knight on a double lightning lock moirax might rack up a few extra hits? (I don’t know that any will be too powerful due to the small size of the knights)
It's really worth looking at the -1 AP under 12 inches ability as well. Less for the Melta and much more for Lightning Locks. Honestly it would also be worth looking at Krast simply for full rerolls for melee hit rolls. Being able to put a Knight at full profile for a turn and healing a wound per turn are also nice.
Ideasweasel wrote: Anyone finding the questoris loadouts just totally ineffective for 9th.
Gatling cannons for instance against T7 with -1 dmg just makes me want to put them in the bin lol
The Gattling is pure marine mincer though not for anti armour work.
If your finding yourself facing a lot of dreadnaughts a Styrix or Magera might be worth a look.
The seige claw being flat 8 damage is hilarious also the volkite is kind of a less swingy but weaker thermal cannon while the lighning cannon does a more anti gravis marine avenger.
The only questoris knight I've had success with in 9th is the Magaera (I dont own a Styrix but they look good too). The sweep attack and the lightning cannon being flat 3 damage are superb in my local (mostly Marines and Custodes) meta.
I love talking about my list ideas and will of course answer any questions, but my question for you is households. The Castellan seems to hugely benefit from Order of Companions/House Raven. Taking the swinginess out of that much shooting is very important to me. However, Raven's Advance+Shoot Heavy Weapons doesn't really benefit the melee Armigers much. Is it worth three CP to split this into two Superheavy detachments and make the Warglaives+Moirax House Krast for full re-rolls to hit? Should I make everything Krast and accept that the Castellan won't be as effective in exchange for more reliable Armigers?
I know that there are other good options out there, Taranis for tougher bodies or custom house for +1 AP and re-roll a hit, but I'm not certain that they benefit me as much as the options above. I'll listen to your thoughts though!
I have on of my "friends" (lets not open that door, he's a decent bloke but my god he annoys me at times) tell me Knights got access to ObSec in an FAQ recently.
Unless I've been completely out of the loop, this is not the case, right?
If this thing does exist, please correct me and point it out, as I would love to get my robots back on the table given theyve become the easiest to transport recently (pre-covid obv).
I just double-checked the FAQ section to make sure, the Knights section hasn't been updated since May of last year and says nothing about ObSec. I'd ask him to show you exactly where it says that as it's vaguely possible it's under some mission update in the main rulebook or something.
You'd have everyone's rapt attention if you could get him to prove it, as it's the single biggest complaint we Knights players seem to have! But I strongly suspect he's full of it.
The Banner of Marcharius Triumphant does indeed grant super-ObSec. Unfortunately it's Questor Imperialis specific. That and the Sally Forth strat (for Linebreaker on a group of three Warglaives) are making me look at Imperialis more closely. They are starting to play the game better than the more killy Mechanicus houses.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I know there have been a number of ideas for fixing Knights over the last few months, I just wanted to put out a couple I haven't seen discussed elsewhere for thoughts.
ObSec is pretty obvious. I'd also like to extend the range Knights can hold an Objective from 3" to 6". This would let them participate in the game without being tied entirely to objectives where they have a hard time using half of their power (Melee).
Some kind of durability buff. That could be a 2+ normal save vs shooting only, the increasingly-common -1 damage, or something else that I'm not thinking of right off the bat. They go down too easily right now.
Change the Thunderstomp strat from a piddly mortal wound option to an anti-charge -2 to charges reaction. It's very easy to deep-strike a killer unit next to a knight then wipe them out without much issue in melee. This wouldn't remove that possibility, it would simply give the Knight player a little agency in stopping it.
Let Knights take advantage of the Breachable terrain feat to move through buildings. It's a bit more of an edge case I'll admit, but who doesn't like the visual of a Knight crashing through a building to get at some heretics? Maybe make this one a strat too.
bmsattler wrote: The Banner of Marcharius Triumphant does indeed grant super-ObSec. Unfortunately it's Questor Imperialis specific. That and the Sally Forth strat (for Linebreaker on a group of three Warglaives) are making me look at Imperialis more closely. They are starting to play the game better than the more killy Mechanicus houses.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I know there have been a number of ideas for fixing Knights over the last few months, I just wanted to put out a couple I haven't seen discussed elsewhere for thoughts.
ObSec is pretty obvious. I'd also like to extend the range Knights can hold an Objective from 3" to 6". This would let them participate in the game without being tied entirely to objectives where they have a hard time using half of their power (Melee).
Some kind of durability buff. That could be a 2+ normal save vs shooting only, the increasingly-common -1 damage, or something else that I'm not thinking of right off the bat. They go down too easily right now.
Change the Thunderstomp strat from a piddly mortal wound option to an anti-charge -2 to charges reaction. It's very easy to deep-strike a killer unit next to a knight then wipe them out without much issue in melee. This wouldn't remove that possibility, it would simply give the Knight player a little agency in stopping it.
Let Knights take advantage of the Breachable terrain feat to move through buildings. It's a bit more of an edge case I'll admit, but who doesn't like the visual of a Knight crashing through a building to get at some heretics? Maybe make this one a strat too.
bmsattler wrote: The Banner of Marcharius Triumphant does indeed grant super-ObSec. Unfortunately it's Questor Imperialis specific. That and the Sally Forth strat (for Linebreaker on a group of three Warglaives) are making me look at Imperialis more closely. They are starting to play the game better than the more killy Mechanicus houses.
The other issue with the Banner for obsec is it doesn't inherently make the knight more survivable which as you point out in the weaknesses of pure knights is they die very quickly.
I'm not sure the imperial vrs Mechnicus houses is quite as onesided with the vustome housholds from engine war.
Also the imperialis warlord traits are pretty good.
Though they really need to buff the oath for imperials +1 to advance or charge is pretty meh when your base move is 12-14 inches not to mention you need to use CP to double down on it and it doesn't stack with any other movement buffs. Jesus why couldn't it just be a flat +1 move or +2 to charges.
I had my first Knights game yesterday against Orcs. We played 1250P.
My List looked like this:
Spoiler:
Battle Size
Selections: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost
Household Choice
Selections: Questor Mechanicus
House Krast
Stratagems
Exalted Court
Selections: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait
Heirlooms of the Household
Selections: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom
Lord of War
Armiger Helverins
Armiger Helverin
Selections: Heavy Stubber
Armiger Helverin
Selections: Heavy Stubber
Knight Crusader
Selections: Character (Knight Lance), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Endless Fury, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Warlord, Warlord Trait (Krast): First Knight
Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon w/ Heavy Stubber
Knight Gallant
Selections: Character (Heirloom of the House), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
My Enemy played something like this:
Spoiler:
3 x 10 Boys
3 x 3 Bikes
2 Trucks
2 x 10 panzaknakka (don’t know if the name is right)
These guys sit inside of the trucks.
1 boss
1 kind of doc?
The Mission had 6 objectives... (yeah...)
I deployed the crusader on the left objective and the helverins on the right.
My Gallant was set up in the Middel to do a lot of pressure.
He placed 2x 10 boys on the left and right objective, 10 boys in the middle supported by the boss and the doc? .
The trucks where Setup in space for cp.
Long story short. He had no models left at the end of turn 4, but we both got 64 points in the end.
My pros where endless fury. Shooting 14 shoots and hitting 18 in one round was just awesome!
My cons where that I didn’t know wich secondary to take! They are just not good for knights!
I took ENGAGE ON ALL FRONTS, GRIND THEM DOWN and cause I didn’t know what else to take ASSASSINATE.
Just grind them down was realy good for me.
Secondaries really suck for Knights. Many of the standard takes are infantry-only. The ones you took were pretty much the best options available to you. Even engage on all fronts is difficult due to the low number of models and the large bases we have.
Souping in things like Imperial Guard, AdMech, or even an Inquisitor or something can help with this, but pure Knights really need more options. I'm kind of hoping that the upcoming Maelstorm rules in White Dwarf can help a little, but that will be for casual games here and there, depends on luck, and may not deliver what I hope it will.
That's pretty nuts, especially for allied lists. Shaving 60-100 points off a min-max Imperial Knights list lets you splurge on some extra guns. Shaving 60-100 points with an allied detachment gets you an extra squad. Sure, I'll just throw in 5 more Serberys Raiders.
StrikingScorpion82 has posted a review of the War Zone Charadon Book of Rust campaign supplement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzcIXY6RIr4 A few highlights for me were...
Forge World Metalica includes a revised Knight of the Cog strategem: 1 CP to give a House Raven imperial knight model Canticles for the entire game.
Freeblade army: everyone has to be a Freeblade. Characters create two qualities and one dboon instead of the other way around, and you get +1 Leadership. This replaces the method detailed in Imperial Knights, so I don't think you can roll randomly to get more. They cannot take the same quality or boon as another model until all of one category has been taken.
Warlord trait: give a Freeblade character one of the House traditions as well.
Relic: a reaper chainsword with a sweep Str-User, -3 AP, D flat 2, 2x attack that sounds like it is required to be taken for the army?
Strategems: one character gets a 6 aura that lets other freeblade models ignore the burdens test (1 CP)
One knight within 12 of another knight can re-roll hit and wound rolls of 1 in either the shooting or fight phase (1 CP, 2 if big knight)
Deed of Legend- destroy a vehicle, character, or monster in any phase and gain another Quality. Can't be a Quality it already has, or another model has unless all other Qualities have already been selected. (1 CP) (Unsure as to whether once you select all the Qualities you could triple-up on a good one with this strategem)
Before battle you can give a model with a relic an additional relic that it could take (2 CP)
Qualities aren't the best, but you could game the system a little using Armigers. A double Lightning Lock Moirax wouldn't mind the reroll 1's to hit vs units with 10+ Models, leaving some of the better Qualities for a bigger knight. I would not use this army of renown for an Armiger-spam list though.
House Raven joins House Vulker in being a shooting army.
Warlord traits: 6s to hit auto-wound (ranged and melee)
4+ FNP against Mortals
+2 Wounds and counts as a Metalica model (good for tech-priest repairs)
Relics: Battle-cannon 72'', Assault 2d6, Str 8, -2 AP, D flat 3, Blast
Ranged attack vs vehicle/monster, improve AP by 1
Thermal Cannon 36'', Assault 1d6, Str 9, AP -5, D 1d6+2, Blast
Each time model is selected to shoot or fight, reroll 1 hit, wound, and damage roll
Stratagems: Knight that did not move (cannot charge this turn) shoots, reroll 1's to hit. Blast weapons reroll hits instead. (1 CP, 3 for big knights)
Shooting Phase- if model did not advance +1 Str for all ranged weapons (2 CP, 3 for big knights)
Movement Phase- one knight move is halved, each time model shoots weapon with random number of attacks, roll an extra die and drop the lowest (1 CP, 3 for big knights)
Fight phase- enemy attack is allocated vs character knight, auto 6 for a saving throw (2 CP)
Opponents movement phase- one knight (not Armiger class) counts engagement range as 3'' horizontal/5'' vertical (2 CP)
Start of opponent's shooting phase- select one non-Armiger knight within 3'' of two other House Raven models, all three get a 4++ vs shooting. Can only use once. (3 CP)
Fight Phase- enemy unit can only have models in engagement range fight, not those 1/2'' of 1/2'' (they can still attack other targets)
(1 CP)
your Charge Phase- non-Armiger Knight- until end of turn enemy units within 3'' are -1 to hit.
(1 CP)
The Warlord trait, Echoes from the Past, initially seemed underwhelming. Faction traits aren't nearly as strong as Warlord traits. However, you actually gain the faction key word, so you can use their stratagems and relics. That could lead to some interesting builds. My mind immediately gravitated toward a Raven Castellan, but I'm not sure you can afford to lose Ion-Bulwark.
You probably need a collections of different units to spread out the most useful qualities and minimize the burdens. A couple Helverins would soak up the worst burdens (by picking two each). Then three Questoris Knights could be Legendary Knights; the first two take the remaining 4 qualities and the third taking any combination. Finally, you could pick two least detrimental burdens and double up on one.
Krast is my go-to House, and they have a solid relic, warlord trait, and strategem as well. Re-roll hits in combat with something like a Magera or Gallant is really strong. That being said going Hawkshroud for their friendly overwatch/heroic intervention or Terryn for a long-bomb charge unit wouldn't be bad at all either.
May be interesting since one of the Qualities is one of the few ways to have ObSec aside from the Banner of Macharius Triumphant.
I used them during 8th and usually the opponent underestimate them, preferring to focus on the more dangerous in term of damage.
Not sure it will work in 9th however
That's an interesting idea with Hawkshroud, and I wonder how their stratagem interacts with the Mysterious Guardian quality. Rules as written, you'd get 2d6" with a minimum 6", but GW will probably rule that you take one or the other. Wait, hang on, how did the rule interact with normal characters getting 3"? There's no FAQ on it.
Anyway, I guess it's worth considering which qualities or combinations are specifically valuable.
Sworn to Quest is the biggest one. Freeblade armies can have 3 ObSec Knights with the Banner of Macharius Triumphant.
Mysterious Guardian is interesting, but I'm not sure how it'd be best used. Maybe for Crusaders following behind some midfielders, and you could use Bonded Oathsmen to drag in some Armigers too. That'd make assaulting any Knights really intimidating. Maybe you hit a critical mass if two Knights have it, with some Warglaives, where assaulting any Knight brings the entire army over to stomp on you.
Legendary Hero is pretty good for Gallants, since you'll probably save a CP on re-rolling charge ranges at some point. I don't see a single re-roll useful besides.
Maybe you take Last of their Line to up your damage with blast weapons against hordes, but in the majority of match-ups this won't even trigger.
Peerless Warrior is potentially powerful, but it's too random. I don't know if you'd want to double up on this because you can't plan on it.
Indomitable is bland and weak, but maybe it's better than Peerless Warrior and Last of their Line simply because it's consistent. Combined with Mechanicus oath, it might be nifty for avoiding getting bracketed.
If I had to pick two to waste on Armigers, I'd probably give them Peerless Warrior and Indomitable. At least when Last of their Line works, it's consistent and useful. Taking one on a model with multiple blast templates, or on a Gallant, is a good pocket pick against hordes.
For burdens, I think the least detrimental is probably Impetuous Nature. If the model moves, it has to move closer to the enemy. That doesn't mean move directly towards them, or even at all. You're moving toward the objective where the enemy is going to be anyway. The only thing it stops you from doing is moving past them to the back line, and even then only if it triggers. Like-wise, Driven to Slaughter basically doesn't affect Gallants. Finally, Weary Machine Spirit isn't so bad on Mechanicus Knights, since you're likely to use Machine Spirit Resurgent anyway.
In summary, the burdens basically don't matter, and mostly you get ObSec as a faction trait. Echoes from the Past and Favoured Knight open up some very interesting combinations. I'd say this is a pretty enticing way to play Knights, and it's tempting me to expand my Knights a bit to play it (whenever game shops open up again).
DarkHound wrote: The Warlord trait, Echoes from the Past, initially seemed underwhelming. Faction traits aren't nearly as strong as Warlord traits. However, you actually gain the faction key word, so you can use their stratagems and relics. That could lead to some interesting builds. My mind immediately gravitated toward a Raven Castellan, but I'm not sure you can afford to lose Ion-Bulwark.
You probably need a collections of different units to spread out the most useful qualities and minimize the burdens. A couple Helverins would soak up the worst burdens (by picking two each). Then three Questoris Knights could be Legendary Knights; the first two take the remaining 4 qualities and the third taking any combination. Finally, you could pick two least detrimental burdens and double up on one.
That's a nice idea - it's also worth noting you can stack exiled in shame -1 to the roll indomitable +1ld and the knight lance character +1ld to pass the burden role on a 11 or less but 11 or less. But also note your lance can make one knight a character to make a armiger a lance character now that your warlord being an armiger isn't so much of a problem
I thought about combining Indomitable and Exiled in Shame, but the chance of failure is still 8%, or 1 in 12 turns, which is too high for me. You will hit it at least once in a tournament run, and the results can just be game losing. It's a bad afternoon waiting to happen.
By the way, if you make an Armiger your Warlord for the lance then you don't get the full refund. Having any Titanic units makes the detachment cost 6, and the Warlord must have Titanic to refund 6 or else it refunds 3. If you're getting rules-lawyery, you could try to argue that Heirlooms stratagem makes another Questoris a character and you nominate that one as your Warlord instead of your character Armiger. You can't do it with Exalted Court, though, because that specifies 'after choosing your Warlord'.
Legendary hero it's a reroll per battle round so if your going second a free reroll of the invul save is never a bad thing. Other than that a thermal cannon damage roll can be nice on occasion
Peerless warrior is strong on any half melee knights. If I think of my castigator 50%I'm 2" faster which is great for getting me into combat if not I'm becoming insane in melee or shooting which is even better
Indomitable big advantages is it reduces how likely you are to fail the burden role take this on a questoris lance character and its failing 3/36 roles 1/36 if you have the exiled in shame burden compared to 6/36 without. And having an extra wound is never a bad thing. Proportionality better on an armigers as at ld 8 it takes them from a 15/36 fail to a 10/36 fail
Mysterious guardians wants to be on a non character warglaive as these can't heroically intervene so you get more value out if it
Sworn to a quest is good
Last of their line is a dud in most matches
Burden wise the least dangerous is weary machine spirit because if your mechanicus its overulled by the machine spirit resurgent strategem.
Exiled in shame makes it less likely to go wrong but worse when it does great in an armidger because your not going to strat it anyway
Driven to slaughter first pick if you have a gallant not so great on anything else
Haunted by failing is surprisingly strong it takes your hits from 66.6% to 62 8% (because 2/3 of your rerolls still hit) assuming Bs3+
Impetuous nature is great on a helvarin whoops I had to charge everything and I didn't make it and I'm sat on an objective so I'm not moving
Obsessed with vengence you can manage with carefull positioning
Legendary Warrior is once per round? Holy Machinegod, I thought it was once per game like the Warlord traits normally are. That's truly insane and easily worth taking on anything that intends to charge.
I know you're going to fail the Burden roll roughly 1/3 of the time, which means if you've got 3 Knights then somebody is acting up every single round. My strategy is to minimize that cost to improve consistency.
I'll have to think on how I'd actually build a list, but it's hard to fit 3 Knights into 1500.
Assuming your 3 knights are lance character they have ld10 and therefore fail 6/36 or 16.6% of the time or 1 will be expected to fail every other round (this assumes none have indomitable or exiled in shame that lower this)
A non character armiger without exiled in shame or Indomitable is roughly a 3rd (15/36 or 42%) its why I advocate sticking exiled in shame on them as your unlikely to strategem them and it make them 10/36 fail or 27.7%.
Knights have Ld9 (being a character doesn't improve this), and only one can get Ld10 from Indomitable. You have to roll under, so that's a 27% chance to fail. It's closer to 1/4 than 1/3, but 1/3 lines up more cleanly and I hadn't double checked the math.
EDIT: I was mistaken, I'm sorry about that. I missed that line in the new text. Characters do in fact get +1Ld. I still think my strategy holds. Exiled in Shame is too dangerous for large Knights. Instead, in my example list, the burdens barely matter when they trigger.
Here's my attempt a Freeblade list. It's extremely complicated to write one since there are so many moving pieces to track.
Spoiler:
Imperial Knights Freeblade Lance Super Heavy Detachment, 1495pts
Knight Crusader, Stormspear Rocket Pod, 520
Mechanicus Freeblade
Q: Sworn to Quest
Mysterious Guardian
B: Haunted by Failure
Warlord: Echoes of the Past: Vulker
Knight Gallant 400
Imperialis Freeblade
Q: Legendary Warrior
Indomitable
B: Driven to Slaughter
Exalted: Ion Bulwark (-1CP)
Relic: Banner of Macharius
Armiger Helverin 155
Mechanicus Freeblade
Q: Last of Their Line
B: Exiled in Shame
Obsessed with Vengeance
The list choices should be pretty straight forward. I don't think it's optimal by any means, but you do need to fit in at least one Armiger to get to double up on Sworn to Quest. I can imagine lists that go -8CP taking 3 Warlord Traits and 4 Relics, basically eschewing stratagems for consistent buffs. That would make for a very fun narrative army to play, if nothing else, with each Knight being extremely customized.
I had a little 1000pt tourney i was considering a knight list for so useing the new freeblade rules and assuming canis rex can be altered
Imperialis freeblade lance
Knight lance character Armiger Warglaive Warlord rrlucs Armour of sacred ion warlord trait ion bulwark qualities peerless warrior indomitable burden exiled in shame
Canis rex quality sworn to a quest legendery hero burden obsessed with vengence
2x Armiger (both qualities 2x Random) (burden 2x exiled in shame, 1 x driven to slaughter 1x haunted by failure)
1 x armiger qualities 2x random quality burden weary machine spirit impetuous nature
In your list, Canis needs to be the Warlord or you lose 3CP (non-titanic Warlords can only refund 3CP, and having a titanic unit costs 6). You can still make a Warglaive a character and give it your one free relic, but you can't use Exalted Court or Heirlooms on Armigers.
I don't think Freeblade Lance gives you very much at lower points. Qualities aren't very impactful on Armigers, and you only really benefit from the new rules when you're stacking repeated Qualities. I also think you're obligated to use Echoes of the Past and Favoured Knight to milk as much unique value as possible to overcome the downsides.
This is the leanest possible Freeblade Lance I could come up with. I dropped the Banner to get the Mechanicus Oath buff and free up a Relic spot. I can't quite fit another Sworn to Quest in, due to the order you assign Qualities; once you get a third Armiger, every Knight can have ObSec. The list becomes much stronger at 1750+. For this, I think you'd have to play-test to fine tune which Knight needs ObSec and the right Relic.
Spoiler:
Imperial Knights Freeblade Lance Super Heavy Detachment, 1495pts; 8 CP
Knight Gallant 400 Mechanicus Freeblade Q: Sworn to Quest Legendary Hero B: Driven to Slaughter Warlord: Echoes of the Past: Krast Relic: Sainted Ion Favoured Knight: Paragon Gauntlet (-2 CP)
Knight Errant, 420 Mechanicus Freeblade Q: Sworn to Quest Legendary Hero B: Haunted by Failure Exalted: Cold Eradication (-1 CP)
Armiger Warglaive 135 Mechanicus Freeblade Q: Last of Their Line B: Random
Armiger Warglaive 135 Mechanicus Freeblade Q: Indomitable B: Random
Actually, given the challenge of making it as lean as possible, you could cut down to this for 1210 points and consider some allies. This is the smallest way to get 2 ObSec Knights. This would be crushing at a 1250pt tournament, since you cover your biggest weakness. At 1500, I could easily see an allied Guard or AdMech patrol with some artillery to cover the backfield.
Spoiler:
Imperial Knights Freeblade Lance Super Heavy Detachment, 1210pts; 9 CP
Knight Gallant 400 Mechanicus Freeblade Q: Sworn to Quest Legendary Hero B: Driven to Slaughter Warlord: Echoes of the Past: Krast Relic: Sainted Ion Favoured Knight: Paragon Gauntlet (-2 CP)
I just realized a thing about ObSec: have GW broken the Qualities versus the Banner of Macharius?
I'm going by memory since I'm not at home, but isn't the Quality written as "This model have ObSec" and the Banner has "this model have ObSec and count as 10 models"?
The new rules said that you need a single ObSec model to use the rule, and then you can count the total model near the objective. Does it mean that the Banner specifications of "count as 10" is useless, or on the opposite side that is much stronger?
I don't remember if in 9th there is a specifications about how many model a Titanic unit counts for
1) it hasn't changed since 8th it was something that many people played wrong - check the wording in your 8th Ed codexs
2) if both players have obsec you count number of models.
Therefore counting as 10 is explicitly much better than just having obsec and counting as 1.
Particularly as with a large knight base you can obscure a large area of the objective.
So in practice a quality obsec knight overules units with more models that don't have obsec. But loses to 2 models one of which has obsec.
The counts as 10 one doesnt lose until the enemy has atleast 11 models in range of the objective 1 of which has obsec.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarkHound wrote: In your list, Canis needs to be the Warlord or you lose 3CP (non-titanic Warlords can only refund 3CP, and having a titanic unit costs 6). You can still make a Warglaive a character and give it your one free relic, but you can't use Exalted Court or Heirlooms on Armigers.
I don't think Freeblade Lance gives you very much at lower points. Qualities aren't very impactful on Armigers, and you only really benefit from the new rules when you're stacking repeated Qualities. I also think you're obligated to use Echoes of the Past and Favoured Knight to milk as much unique value as possible to overcome the downsides.
This is the leanest possible Freeblade Lance I could come up with. I dropped the Banner to get the Mechanicus Oath buff and free up a Relic spot. I can't quite fit another Sworn to Quest in, due to the order you assign Qualities; once you get a third Armiger, every Knight can have ObSec. The list becomes much stronger at 1750+. For this, I think you'd have to play-test to fine tune which Knight needs ObSec and the right Relic.
Spoiler:
Imperial Knights Freeblade Lance Super Heavy Detachment, 1495pts; 8 CP
Knight Gallant 400
Mechanicus Freeblade
Q: Sworn to Quest
Legendary Hero
B: Driven to Slaughter
Warlord: Echoes of the Past: Krast
Relic: Sainted Ion
Favoured Knight: Paragon Gauntlet (-2 CP)
Knight Errant, 420
Mechanicus Freeblade
Q: Sworn to Quest
Legendary Hero
B: Haunted by Failure
Exalted: Cold Eradication (-1 CP)
Armiger Warglaive 135
Mechanicus Freeblade
Q: Last of Their Line
B: Random
Armiger Warglaive 135
Mechanicus Freeblade
Q: Indomitable
B: Random
Actually, given the challenge of making it as lean as possible, you could cut down to this for 1210 points and consider some allies. This is the smallest way to get 2 ObSec Knights. This would be crushing at a 1250pt tournament, since you cover your biggest weakness. At 1500, I could easily see an allied Guard or AdMech patrol with some artillery to cover the backfield.
Spoiler:
Imperial Knights Freeblade Lance Super Heavy Detachment, 1210pts; 9 CP
Knight Gallant 400
Mechanicus Freeblade
Q: Sworn to Quest
Legendary Hero
B: Driven to Slaughter
Warlord: Echoes of the Past: Krast
Relic: Sainted Ion
Favoured Knight: Paragon Gauntlet (-2 CP)
Armiger Warglaive 135
Mechanicus Freeblade
Q: Peerless Warrior
B: Random
Armiger Warglaive 135
Mechanicus Freeblade
Q: Last of Their Line
B: Random
Armiger Warglaive 135
Mechanicus Freeblade
Q: Indomitable
B: Random
Oh I recognise it costs 3 CP but with only 1 questoris and getting one cp a turn for rotate ion shields I don't need 6. Particularly as I'm not paying for relics or warlord traits. While making an armiger 2+4++ +1ld and capable of heroic intervention is a reasonable buff to it
I mean with 4 armigers how much CP do you need?
I'm not sure mechanically it is competative because knights themselves are not. If I'm running knights it's more for fun as a non serious tournament list. Also the event I'm thinking of is 1000pts so that's what I'm focused on. At the 2000 level I'm not taking knights to many eradicators.
.
U02dah4 wrote: Oh I recognise it costs 3 CP but with only 1 questoris and getting one cp a turn for rotate ion shields I don't need 6. Particularly as I'm not paying for relics or warlord traits. While making an armiger 2+4++ +1ld and capable of heroic intervention is a reasonable buff to it
I mean with 4 armigers how much CP do you need?
I'm not sure mechanically it is competative because knights themselves are not. If I'm running knights it's more for fun as a non serious tournament list. Also the event I'm thinking of is 1000pts so that's what I'm focused on. At the 2000 level I'm not taking knights to many eradicators.
Don't take a defeatist attitude. Knights do have competitive lists and have done well at major tournaments. If you want to win, then you have to optimize and play intelligently.
Paying 3 CP to give Ion Bulwark to an Armiger is a losing trade before the game starts. When I run my 4 Warglaives, they use 3 or 4 CP on Pack Tactics and Pack Hunters and re-rolling charges. Think about it this way, instead of giving 1 Armiger +1 invul, you could give all your Armigers charge re-rolls and +2 attacks.
Besides Rotate Ion Shield, Canis will also need Capacitor Charge, and will probably use a command re-roll somewhere. You may also need to spend 2 CP on Full Tilt to tie up some guns on turn 1. You should expect to spend 4 or 5 CP on turn 1.
Again, at 1k pts, I don't think Freeblades are worth the draw-backs. I also don't think that Canis is going to be able to pick qualities. However, I think Knights are significantly more competitive at lower points because they're such a heavy skew list. You could run your same list and just use an Imperialis faction or custom house. You'd give your character Armiger the Banner of Macharius and make another Armiger a Freeblade with Sworn to Quest. You still get 2 ObSec units and eliminate your biggest weakness. Then you just leverage your overwhelming armor and focus on their anti-tank threads for a very easy tournament run.
So, I'm looking back at the House Raven + Metalica synergies to cement the purpose of combining the factions (and represent the unity of my homebrew). I plan to only bring one Knight, and I'm going back and forth with the new Warlord traits and Relics.
In particular, for Relics, I'm looking at the new battlecannon with flat 3 damage and the new thermal cannon with 2+d6 damage. For Warlord traits, I'm considering Cold Eradication against Ion Bulwark. House Raven also gets access to strats for blast weapons to roll 3d6 discard 1 shots, and the Paladin has a strat for flat 3 damage too. The trick is that you can get basically any of the effects from the relics and warlord traits through stratagems, so you have to figure the ones you'd use most should be permanent.
The way I'm leaning right now is Cold Eradication with the Raven battlecannon. The math on the battlecannon alone outpaces the thermal cannon against anything with an invul, and it's significantly better at against infantry. Compared to Ion Bulwark, I'd like to shoot every turn, but I'm not always going to need 4++. A Raven Knight also gets access to the Shroudpsalm Canticle to get cover and get 4+ against AP-2 guns.
With that loadout, a Paladin gets an average of 8.1 wounds against T7 3+/5++ (compared to 6.3 without Cold Eradication, and 4.2 without the relic either). Given that it does discrete 3 damage, that's an extremely reliable 6. The analogous Errant does 7.4 damage, then 8.8 at half range (18"). I've never actually run a Paladin (who has?), but I expect the board-clearing range will help keep it safe from meltaguns early on.
For reference, this is roughly what I'm looking at playing at 1500, depending on the new AdMech codex (whenever that decides to come out):
For me, it's a question of what the Knight adds to an AdMech force. My personal answer is staying power and a good solid front-line unit. AdMech have a -lot- of good long-range firepower, but their frontline units are either skirmishers like the cyber-horses or priests. Both are good at their roles but are not very good at holding ground. That's where a Knight can come in.
I don't really think that paying 450+ points for a knight to hide in the backfield sniping with its one rapid-fire battle cannon is worth it. I used to really look down on melee weapons on Knights generally, preferring the Crusader style for more firepower and stomps for close combat. But I'm starting to think that the Deathgrip strategem with a thunderstrike gauntlet would be really good against characters such as an Archon or a smash Canoness.
That's a fair point, but I'm thinking the opposite: what do AdMech bring to Knights? My goal with that patrol was to bring some board presence and utility that the Knights lack, rather than firepower. Again, it's not a tuned Patrol (I can actually fit in a Fusilave for 5 of the Vanguard by shuffling stuff around) since I'm waiting for the Omnissiah-forsaken codex to release.
What I'm struggling with is that I want to use one of the new Raven relics. So, options I have on the table:
Errant with D2+d6 relic gun and Cold Eradication. This is the premier anti-tank, with access to re-roll wounds strat, but doesn't benefit from other offensive strats and has middling to awful performance against infantry. That being said, its anti-tank effectiveness runs up hard against invul saves, especially compared to the Paladin.
Paladin with D3 damage gun and Cold Eradication. This thing does real damage against all-comers. While the most points expensive, it doesn't need to be fed CP offensively. That being said, each permanent benefit won't apply in some situations and can be replicated by a stratagem, so I can see an argument for swapping one or the other. Still, I think most armies will have something that D3 damage to.
Preceptor with Spirit of Kolossi (re-roll one hit or wound or damage per phase) and a non-Cold Eradication trait. The cheapest one points-wise, but by far the hungriest for CPs. It's the most versatile, and can be buffed right behind the Paladin in any situation at the cost of more CP.
The idea that I keep coming back to is CP hunger. The Paladin comes out on top against almost all targets without spending CP, which leaves room for more tricks. With regards to sniping, it's not that the Paladin is going to use its range to stay out of the fight, but that it can move toward the best melee target without sacrificing shooting at the best battlecannon target. The Errant and Preceptor have to approach their ranged targets and pick from nearby melee targets to try to maximize their efficiency.
If I make one of my knights a Freeblade, can I also change their allegiance? If I take House Krast, can I have a Questor Imperialis Freeblade that is able to take Imperialis specific warlord traits or relics?
Yup, however in that case your detachment loses its Questor Mechanicus oath bonus which regenerates 1 wound per turn. All the models have to have the same oath to get that bonus. So long as the rest of the models in the detachment are Krast, then a Freeblade doesn't prevent them from getting the Krast tradition.
As an aside, you can mix houses in a single detachment, you just lose the house tradition (but gain access to relics, traits, and stratagems).
I'm hoping that Knights get ObSec at some point and make the Banner of Macharius Triumphant unnecessary, but until I learn one way or the other its going to be a consideration.
Yeah, youcan actually give two models ObSec while retaining a house tradition. You need to take two Freeblades; you take one as Imperialis and give it the Banner, and you select the other to have Qualities and give it Sworn to Quest. Of course, then there aren't many other Knights remaining and you're pretty close to giving them all ObSec in a Freeblade Lance. If you really need a tradition on a particular Knight, you've got Echoes from the Past.
I think that Freeblades are the best way to run pure Knights at 1000+ points now. Personally, I'm leaning hard into the Raven+Metalica combo which seems really strong. AdMech canticles are going to be otherwise exclusive to pure AdMech, so they'll probably see a buff which then applies to Raven. It certainly feels like Book of Rust was a big injection of options for Knights.
Running a single Freeblade hasn't changed, it's extremely niche.
Now, if your entire army is Freeblades then you get a bunch of perks; particularly, you can pick two Qualities per Knight and game the process to get duplicate Qualities. So give all your Knights ObSec and Herioc Intervention at 6" and make your Knights unapproachable. If you need it, the Freeblade Lances get a nifty Warlord trait to still count as a Knight House to get their tradition, strats, and access to their relic. And hey, you can even pay 2CP to give a Knight a second relic, bringing you to potentially 4 in one army.
It's certainly an interesting army, and Knights recently posted a tournament win, so I expect some Freeblade Lance to post a tournament result in the next few weeks. Knights have the strongest match-up against Dark Eldar of any faction (only a 53% loss rate!).
The new AdMech codex is basically entirely revealed now, and it's got a big impact on Knights. I thought I'd break down some of interesting developments for those not keeping up with AdMech.
The AdMech's faction buffs became restricted to pure AdMech armies, except they can still pay for one Mechanicus Oath Superheavy Auxiliary detachment. It's a minor point for primarily Knight players, since it has no bearing on full Superheavy Detachments. As we already knew, the meat is with House Raven and Forgeworld Metalica: you can pay one CP per Knight unit to count as Adeptus Mechanicus and gain Canticles. So, minimum investment of 5 CP (2 for the Metalica patrol, 1 for each mandatory unit in a Lance). What do you get?
There are 6 canticles, and you pick one to apply at the start of each Battle Round (after knowing who goes first). In order of best to worst, they are:
Everyone has Light Cover.
Each shooting unit can re-roll one hit, one wound, and one damage roll.
Roll an extra D6 and discard one for each advance or charge.
Enemies have -1 to hit in melee.
5+++ against mortal wounds (and ignore modifiers on combat attrition tests).
+1S in melee.
They are extremely powerful on Knights and each CP spent on Canticles is worth 2 or 3 CP in re-rolls.
Of course, you're also paying for an AdMech patrol. This is where the other half of the buffs come in: Skitarii units (most infantry and vehicles) pick from 4 buffs at the start of each Battle Round. They each have a draw back, cannot be picked twice.
+1 save, -3" movement.
+3" movement, -1 save.
+1 BS, -1 WS.
+1 WS, -1 BS.
Those are pretty easy to remember, and it does mean your whole army can go +1 save on turn 1. Importantly, you do not need to pick one every turn. I think it'll be pretty common to only use +1 save and +1 BS.
Now what should you do with the AdMech patrol? Knights lack board presence and objective security, and these are both things AdMech can do really well. The key units to look at for board presence are Raiders, Sterylizors/Skystalkers, Infiltrators; they are extremely mobile and built for harassing. Vanguard and Rangers can be built as either 5 man ObSec missiles (15" move with Metalica's auto 6" advance strat and +3" move Docrtina), or as big 20 man ObSec blocks. You may also look into Ironstriders, which will continue to be AdMech's strongest shooting.
Here's an example of my 1500pt list:
Spoiler:
Total 1496pt, 7 CP House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP]
Knight Crusader, Ironstorm, 490 [Warlord; Blessed by Metalica; Fury of the Keep]
2 Warglaives, Stubbers, 270
1 Warglaive, Stubber, 135
The idea is the Crusader, Vanguard, and Manipulus are a rock solid firebase together. The Manipulus buffs the Vanguard to ignore AP1 and 2, and can repair the Crusader D3 wounds per turn. The Raiders and Infiltrators both have a pre-game move to provide board control and the Dunecrawler sits at the home objective. Basically every unit can advance and shoot, pretty much everything shoots and fights in melee. Playing an AdMech list is all about timing those buffs to maximize your effectiveness.
There have been a few good showings by Imperial Knights players at tournaments recently. The lists are interesting, but I'm wondering if anyone knows what Secondaries people are taking to do well. I really struggle with these.
I had a test game for the new ObSec rules last night. I was running a Freeblade Lance:
Magaera with Helm Dominatus and Landstrider
Magaera with 2+ save and 'counts as Krast'
3x Warglaives with Melta and 6" Heroic Intervention
4x Lightning Lock Moirax
I'll spare you the laundry list of Qualities and Burdens, it basically puts most of the bad stuff on the Moirax who don't care if you charge worse or can't use stratagems on them.
I was playing against an infantry-heavy Custodes list. I'm not super up on their stuff but he had a lot of axes for Str 8 melee, a squadron of 3 bikers, and two banners to guide the teleporting terminators in. Normally that would be hard to deal with as they are all ObSec. However now that Armigers count as 5 and ObSec, the 3-man size of Custodes really started working against him.
I'll admit that this isn't a very good match up for the Custodes. I pretty much stomped him, tabling him on turn 5 to farm out the Grind them Down secondary. He didn't have the hitting power to stop me, I lost one Warglaive to a dreadnaught charge and that's it. The big learning point for me was the difference that being board control gave to the Knights. You pretty much have to kill them to take an objective now, and that's not always easy.
Sicarian Infiltrators [4 PL, 85pts]
. Infiltrator Princeps (Stub/Sword)
. 4x Sicarian Infiltrator (Stub/Sword): 4x Power Sword, 4x Stubcarbine
++ Total: [99 PL, 7CP, 2,000pts] ++
I took engage in all fonts, and grind them down most of the games. Followed by psychic ritual when they didn't have any psykers, or raise the banners against the death guard.
Canticles are solid gold on Knights! The Metallica strats for auto advancing 6",expanding the radiation 6" and enriched rounds are the big money makers. Hats off to my opponents for being amazingly great men. I had a blast all weekend!
I'm just trying to figure out why the Magaera is the same cost as a Crusader. It's better in every conceivable way. I mean, I suppose its ranged output is slightly weaker but it more than makes up for it in CC and is thus a better all-rounder. Crusaders (along with all the other non-FW Knights) better get a price drop in the next balance update or if the new Knights codex comes out in the next few months. Otherwise I probably better find a decent 3d printable upgrade kit to turn a standard Knight into a Magaera if I ever decide to fully pursue running Knights.
Fishborne wrote: finished a 65 player tournament(wargames for warriors)and placed 6th (going 5-1) with a Metallica-Raven list. This was before the new rules.
GSC 59-28 win (went second)
DE 39-30 win (went second)
White scars 57-35 win (went second)
Raven Guard 48-93 loss (went first)
Deamons 65-63 win (went first)
Death Guard 55-35 win (went second)
Sicarian Infiltrators [4 PL, 85pts]
. Infiltrator Princeps (Stub/Sword)
. 4x Sicarian Infiltrator (Stub/Sword): 4x Power Sword, 4x Stubcarbine
++ Total: [99 PL, 7CP, 2,000pts] ++
I took engage in all fonts, and grind them down most of the games. Followed by psychic ritual when they didn't have any psykers, or raise the banners against the death guard.
Canticles are solid gold on Knights! The Metallica strats for auto advancing 6",expanding the radiation 6" and enriched rounds are the big money makers. Hats off to my opponents for being amazingly great men. I had a blast all weekend!
That's great stuff. I also run Raven+Metallica. What's the deal with the 5 Rangers with an Arquebus? I ran that loadout in my Crusade league and they did jack every game. I couldn't imagine taking it to matched play. Did 3 Arqs really perform? Also, was the Dominus really worthwhile?
That's great stuff. I also run Raven+Metallica. What's the deal with the 5 Rangers with an Arquebus? I ran that loadout in my Crusade league and they did jack every game. I couldn't imagine taking it to matched play. Did 3 Arqs really perform? Also, was the Dominus really worthwhile?
The 5 Rangers were more of a back field objective holder and deep strike/ outflank buffer. Looking back I should have broken up the big Rangers into two groups of 10. The Arquebus made the de/white scar players jittery with their characters, So I played some psy ops mind games by talking them up to play into their fears. So they did their job a different way I guess!
The Dominus was a real player because he had so many special rules for the infantry. Even if he could fix the Knights they were always halfway up the board so it was moot. But when you can't give admek characters traits since it's a knight Warlord I wanted to give a reroll hits bubble. He was always with both groups of infantry at first then moved over to stay with whatever bigger group stuck around longer.
Metalica and Raven work great for keeping a high pressure game! People don't think these guys are such in your face until I get turn 1 charges (with 2 or 3 Knights) and a second wave of bodies in the mid table. My meta was less vehicles (unless you count the ork buggy list that took first) and far more elite infantry with dreads, hence the damage 3 plethora I was going for.
That all makes sense with my experience too. After the points changes, I'm running this:
Spoiler:
Total 1995pt, 7 CP House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP] Knight Crusader, Meltagun, 480 [Warlord; Ion Bulwark; Fury of the Keep] 2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280 2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
I had been running Blessed by Metalica, and it's fine, but the Enginseer is often out of place. Ideally you can use its fight last strat to help the Knight, but in practice he's better off with the Dunecrawlers (or for a Dominus/Manipulus, with the troops). I bit the bullet and took Ion Bulwark instead to save CP on average.
I agree on the 10 man squads, but I think doubly so for Vanguard. I find it's easier to ensure Enriched Rounds hits a 10 man unit, rather than losing CP efficiency when the 20 man takes losses. Granted, those considerations change if you're buffing them. I think ultimately it's just much easier to get Acquisition At Any Cost on a 10 man unit, which can be game winning now that the Knights count more and you just need a single ObSec body to stick.
Most people don't think of Knights, or even really AdMech, as a mobile army. I often feel like I just win going first, because it's so easy to get first turn charges and it's almost impossible to hide from advancing Knights. Aggressor Doctrina, Benediction of the Omnissiah, everybody advances up. I think competent iterations of Raven and Metalica can hang with the best of them, but it takes more skill to manage the movement phase than the raw power of Lucius or Mars.
I will wax poetic about how the Crusader has superior firepower and the Magaera's melee weapon is unnecessary, but up front I'll say on average the Magaera is better. Really, I didn't want to deal with getting or creating a Magaera.
That being said, the Crusader is better at shooting and House Raven lives on its ability to advance and shoot. The Crusader is better on turn 1 when you're using Flanking Maneuver to get angles (and so can't charge), and Benediction of the Omnissiah is stronger on a Thermal Cannon than any of the Magaera's weapons. If you break the enemy's back with that first volley, feet stomping will be enough for clean-up.
Of course, the inverse is also true: the Magaera is stronger with Invocation of Machine Vengeance, Landstrider, and Full Tilt to make turn 1 charges. Picking the enemy apart at a distance and being patient fits my play style better than reckless charges, but there's a case to be made for either.
Anyway, the single Raider squad is actually my secret weapon. At the start of the game, when I'm explaining my army and clearing up any gotchas, I detail the Raider's ability to turn 1 charge. If I go first, they'll launch 24" (or 30" if I choose Aggressor Doctrina) into the enemy's deployment zone and get their pick of any charge target. That usually puts the fear of the Omnissiah in them. It only takes 1 to disable their Eradicators or Ironstriders, so they usually deploy extremely conservatively. (Consequently, it's harder to get turn 1 charges with Knights so I favor the Crusader again.)
Once they've done that, the Raiders are still great vessels for Blaring Glory and Deafening Assault. They can also make an 11" line to block deep strikes and absorb charges, or score Engage On All Fronts.
I think that you can enjoy the list if your goal is to be thematic. Competitively it will lack firepower, board presence, and durability. You are better off dropping one of the Questoris for a trio of Armigers of some type. The non-Magaera Questoris are still probably not worth it in the long run, but I'd love to be proved wrong!
I'm under no illusion it will be particularly strong. Consider it a thought experiment to make it as effective as possible given the 4 big bots restriction.
Eldarain wrote: What would you learned folk do if you were trying to run just the following in a 2000 point force?
2x Paladin/Errants
1x Converted Knight that can count as any Questoris chassis
1x Lancer
I've been outta the game since before the PA book so it's all rather overwhelming.
Cheers.
Hmm, Paladins are garbage because the Battlecannon is statistically bad against all targets. Errants are fine, though as with the Warden, my preference is to trade the extremely situational melee weapon for an extra gun. The Lancer is a great melee threat. With your last free pick, I'd grab a Crusader to round out your shooting. The trouble is that you only have 1755 points, so you'll need to add some Armigers or something.
For factions, your best bet is probably Krast. The re-rolls are huge on the Lancer, and the Krast Warlord trait is exceptionally strong on Crusaders. I'd also make one of the Errants a Freeblade to get the Sworn to Quest boon for ObSec.
IHateNids wrote: its such a stupid idea, but I love the idea of one knight leading a pack of 10 armigers thematically.
The new competitive boogie man is a 14 Armiger list, so it's not dumb. It's not unreasonable to think a Preceptor with Helm of the Dominatus would be a better force multiplier than redundant Armigers.
IHateNids wrote: its such a stupid idea, but I love the idea of one knight leading a pack of 10 armigers thematically.
The new competitive boogie man is a 14 Armiger list, so it's not dumb. It's not unreasonable to think a Preceptor with Helm of the Dominatus would be a better force multiplier than redundant Armigers.
I think that Helverin's have a limited place, mostly against various types of Eldar. Moirax are better than both Helverin's and Warglaives, but they are more expensive. Warglaives are good for jumping onto objectives and wrestling for control of them. Moirax, especially the lightning locks version, are excellent against anything that is T6 or less but struggle against larger targets.
Edit: As much as possible, Magnetize. The arms especially are really easy to swap out.
bmsattler wrote: I think that Helverin's have a limited place, mostly against various types of Eldar. Moirax are better than both Helverin's and Warglaives, but they are more expensive. Warglaives are good for jumping onto objectives and wrestling for control of them. Moirax, especially the lightning locks version, are excellent against anything that is T6 or less but struggle against larger targets.
Edit: As much as possible, Magnetize. The arms especially are really easy to swap out.
due to being capped at 5 LoW slots I couldn't have another 2 moirax, so its basically 2 helverin or one of each. If I was going to add a third moirax though it would definitely be lightning locks
Edit: I should also clarify, arms are dealt with. All of my moirax are interchangeable
Definitely magnetize if you're 3D printing parts or getting bits. I think Warglaives are the best Armiger, and one of the best units in the book. I think Lightning Locks are also strong and compliment them perfectly. Thermal Lances kill tanks and heavy infantry, and the Lightning Locks kill anything smaller.
I think the perception comes from Moiraxes being easy to use; you just dump a bunch of shots at infantry. To get the most out of Warglaives, you need to line up your charges to tag multiple units and overlap for Pack Tactics and Pack Hunters. If there is a 5.75" gap between two units, a Warglaive can fit between them. Then you can throw another Warglaive at either unit, and activate Pack Tactics for +1 attack on each (or +2 if you get a third Warglaive in). You don't have to attack the same target, just be in engagement range at the start of the phase. Their melee is perfect for mulching anything except the heaviest vehicles.
All of this is to say Helverins don't really have a place. Their shooting is mostly equal to Warglaives against vehicles, except with a sweet spot against Dark Eldar Raiders. Their shooting is also equal or worse than Lightning Locks against infantry of all flavors. They aren't exactly bad, but after you've got enough of the other Armigers, you don't need very many.
I'd field a max of 2 Helverins, and I'd lean more toward Warglaives since you need melee to win objectives. So 5 Warglaives, 3 Lightning Locks, 2 Helverins.
DarkHound wrote: Definitely magnetize if you're 3D printing parts or getting bits. I think Warglaives are the best Armiger, and one of the best units in the book. I think Lightning Locks are also strong and compliment them perfectly. Thermal Lances kill tanks and heavy infantry, and the Lightning Locks kill anything smaller.
I think the perception comes from Moiraxes being easy to use; you just dump a bunch of shots at infantry. To get the most out of Warglaives, you need to line up your charges to tag multiple units and overlap for Pack Tactics and Pack Hunters. If there is a 5.75" gap between two units, a Warglaive can fit between them. Then you can throw another Warglaive at either unit, and activate Pack Tactics for +1 attack on each (or +2 if you get a third Warglaive in). You don't have to attack the same target, just be in engagement range at the start of the phase. Their melee is perfect for mulching anything except the heaviest vehicles.
All of this is to say Helverins don't really have a place. Their shooting is mostly equal to Warglaives against vehicles, except with a sweet spot against Dark Eldar Raiders. Their shooting is also equal or worse than Lightning Locks against infantry of all flavors. They aren't exactly bad, but after you've got enough of the other Armigers, you don't need very many.
I'd field a max of 2 Helverins, and I'd lean more toward Warglaives since you need melee to win objectives. So 5 Warglaives, 3 Lightning Locks, 2 Helverins.
Ok... I can see the wisdom in that.
I'll try the variant with 4/3/3 and see how it goes, and then proxy for more warglaives to see if I need to get more Moirax arms
Razerous wrote: So what is the pro / cons of the Warglaivers vs. Helvrins vs. Moirexes?
Each has it's own task
Helverins hurt things from far away, but as DarkHound mentioned, theyre overall a little lackluster at the moment
Warglaives want to be up close and optionally personal, and being armed with meltas they want to be hunting vehicles or big monsters, neither of which are all that common I think at the moment.
Moiraxes can do either, depending on loadout, and are arguably better at both. They can be ridiculous at long range with CBeams, close range infantry deletion with Lightning, Volkite, or Grav for light/med/hvy infatry respectively, and have a nice combat weapon too. However, as FW products they do a lot more damage financially, and some places are still touchy about FW in events, so YMMV
Personally I think they are all quite good, but Helverins are definately the weakest currently
Warglaives are also 20 points cheaper, which often lets you put an extra Armiger body on the field instead of a similar number of Helverin's/Moirax. I personally am not a huge fan of Warglaive shooting, it seems like they miss/fail to wound a -lot-. But having a melee-oriented obsec guy that moves 14" is worthwhile on its own.
Lightning Locks with their extra 2 hits on 6s are much more reliable into infantry of all types. I picked up a squadron of Custodes bikes with them in my last game. They overwatch reasonably well and can hold objectives while your other stuff moves down the field to pressure the enemy.
Right now my list is two Magaera, 3x Warglaives, and 4x lightning locks. I'm not sure if this is enough firepower against mass Talox/Chronos, but there aren't many Drukari players in the area for me to playtest against.
My meta is geared towards heavy infantry so I always pack a few grav with my lightning locks since AP and damage are needed. Don't mix on the same model though. It dilutes the dice rolls (I've had more luck rolling 2 dice at the same time than 2 individual rolls).
My list of best Armiger:
Warglaive
Grav then Lightning
Helverin
IHateNids wrote:Warglaives want to be up close and optionally personal, and being armed with meltas they want to be hunting vehicles or big monsters, neither of which are all that common I think at the moment.
Honestly, heavy infantry are fair targets for their melta too. An average 3 shots at 12" into Intercessors kills about 2 and averages a quarter of their points back. But really, the money is their melee. Flat 3 damage at S12 strikes fear into every heavy infantry player, but hordes are especially vulnerable. They've got a lot of surface area for multiple Armigers to tag, even if they're separate squads. Most auras are 6", and that's exactly the spacing you're looking for.
The best Pack Tactics I've had was all 4 of my Armigers tagged a common ork horde for +8 attacks, and Pack Hunters also saved 3 re-rolls. They killed a Mega Armored boss, a couple MANz, and a third of the horde.
bmsattler wrote:Warglaives are also 20 points cheaper, which often lets you put an extra Armiger body on the field instead of a similar number of Helverin's/Moirax. I personally am not a huge fan of Warglaive shooting, it seems like they miss/fail to wound a -lot-. But having a melee-oriented obsec guy that moves 14" is worthwhile on its own.
Always pay the 5 points for an extra meltagun. You'll usually be in range, so it's 5 points for 50% more shots and double the minimum. That goes a long way toward making them feel consistent.
I've got an interesting choice with no clear solution. I've been running my House Raven Knight Crusader with Fury of the Keep, which is a Thermal Cannon with +2 damage at all ranges instead of 2d6drop1. However, in my Crusade league I've been playing a Knight Warden to tone the army down and it's gotten me to try Endless Fury, with which I've been impressed.
Here's my thinking: at range, either relic is basically 50% more damage against their preferred target. Obviously the choice is meta dependent on whether you need 50% more antitank or 50% more anti-MEQ. However, I think the spoiler is the Thermal Cannon gets its extra damage roll at half range, at which point Fury of the Keep is only 20% better.
The fact that the Fury of the Keep lets the Knight skirt the edges and fire with full effectiveness is tactically valuable, but I don't know if I've ever won the game off the back of +2 damage. And I definitely don't stay at 36". The Knight usually gets into melee on turn 2 anyway.
I posted my list earlier, but again for context:
Spoiler:
Total 1995pt, 7 CP House Raven Superheavy detachment [Knight of the Iron Cog -3 CP]
Knight Crusader, Meltagun, 480 [Warlord; Ion Bulwark; Fury of the Keep/Endless Fury?]
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
2 Warglaives, Meltaguns, 280
Endless Fury also has a couple other small benefits: It can fire into melee and its better overwatch. Yes, most of the time you can fall back and shoot-charge, but there are enough weird things out there like Buggies and Talos that might wrap a knight.
The other thing to look at is what other anti-tank do you have? It looks like 4 Warglaives and the Fusilave. That swings me back toward the Fury of the Keep, as I think that vehicles are still very popular and you'll need some volume to deal with them.
I'm back after quite a few more games. I played with the Endless Fury some more, and I paid particular attention to the difference Fury of the Keep would have made. The short answer is Fury of the Keep is definitely better.
I had a really uncomfortable match against triple Cadian Tank Commanders (which are really good now, by the way). The layout was opposite table quarters, and my Armigers actually had trouble getting into range to counter-attack after deploying conservatively. I was dancing around his Demolisher's range while getting pounded by the new relic Battle Cannon. Obviously, this is the tank match-up where the better anti-tank gun is better. What I have new appreciation for is how stark the difference is: the Fury of the Keep with one Flanking Maneuvered Armiger would have gotten an early kill on the important Demolisher. I only ended up winning due to some really unfortunate explosions and lucky damage rolls.
I also played against more Custodes recently than I ever had before. That's why I was giving advice earlier that Thermal Lances can go into heavy infantry. You'd think Endless Fury would be better, but there were two problems. I couldn't afford to get close enough to maximize the Thermal Cannon against their Dreadnoughts, and D6 damage feels awful against W3+ infantry. Honestly, Endless Fury+Thermal kills an extra 0.4 infantry compared to shooting Keep+Avenger at them. Worse, if they're in cover Endless Fury only kills an extra 0.17. It's not worth giving up huge amounts of anti-tank for minimal improvements against infantry.
Custodes are a unique case where even their infantry are anti-tank targets, but it made me pay attention to those opportunities. There's always an important target for the Fury of the Keep, but there's never a critical target for Endless Fury.
Looking over the Chapter Approved 2022 changes, Magaera are up +20 points and Lightning Locks/Volkite on the Moirax are +5 points each.
The new missions also encourage more actions, which can be taken by any unit not just infantry (I think!). That in mind, I think having 5+ Armigers is more important than ever. Or an allied force for chaff like servitors or IG squads to do stuff instead of a Crusader spending an action to plant a bomb.
Get a Vanguard of Rouge trader voidsmen and Inquisitor acolyte squad because they have agent of the Imperium so your Knights are still objective secured.
I can't find where Inquisitorial Acolytes have Agent of the Imperium, which is a shame because they would absolutely work. I like the idea of the Voidsmen though!
I'm enjoying the greater board presence that counting as multiple models grants me. I've had games against Death Guard, Space Wolves, and Custodes that felt like actual games with neither side having an easy time of it. The points nerfs hurt a little and I've had to modify some of my lists, but overall its not bad.
I'll be taking my Knights to a tournament later this month.
I like two big knights and the rest Armigers right now. The board presence and firepower is really nice.
If you are running a good number of Warglaives, picking the custom trait to re-roll a hit per activation makes them much more reliable in both shooting and melee. It's one of the strongest traits you can get in my opinion.
I’ve been experimenting with Raven and also freeblade detachments
2 big knights and the rest little but I’m swapping out my castellan as everyone is scared to bring vehicles at the moment and I find he doesn’t pull his weight versus elite infantry and hordes in volume
Probably 1 Magaera and a Preceptor and 8 warglaives. I just find the warglaives tend to die before the make their points back is all
That and the freeblade lance can shaft you if you fail a few burden rolls. I’ve had turns that ended my game there and then
I'm scared of Crusher Stampede, so I'm going Raven Castellan and a Magaera for the tournament. Otherwise I agree that the Castellan doesn't necessarily work into a heavy invuln meta. I'm really hoping for some improved weapons when the codex comes out, along with some secondaries in categories that we don't already do well in.
Yeah. Lol I have a feeling I need to temper my expectations.
Because it feels like anything less than a 2+SvBS/WS2 30W 5++ all phases with 4++FNP and a massive overhaul to weapon profiles on any platform not named a Magaera isn’t going to cut it
Well, I feel like the Avenger is fine'ish, and the Magaera's lightning cannon is really good. But the Thermal Cannon d6 shots and d6 damage profile just isn't good. It's very swingy and I think that it struggles to reliably kill a tank that will be a third of the points that it costs to run the Knight in the first place. I'm hoping for something like flat 3-5 shots, and D3+3+5(half range) damage. The RFBC is just bad, it probably needs to be flat 3 damage to even consider.
I think that Knights need a little more defensive stuff, they die too quickly. They also need help playing the mission, though the ObSec stuff -really- helps. Maybe stuff like the ability to use a stratagem to do an infantry action or a big knight being able to hold an objective from 6 inches instead of 3.
I need a few games but I think I'm going to try 4 big knights and a half. The new mission seems an easy score as does grind when you only have 5 models I'm not sure it will make enough of a difference but it seems an interesting list its a shame you can't include a agent of the imperium without losing the mission
Krast
A castigator - knight lance character, armour of the sacred ion
its a better warden and I want a knight to advance to a mid board objective
Crusader - The headsmans mark, First Knight
Crusader - Endless fury, Ion bulwalk Warlord
I want two backfield shooty knights for two objectives and pts wise the magaera is fractionally too expensive and would result in dropping the warglaive
Canis Rex
As a 4th big knight he's broken especially if your not building around armigers. The free +1ws and bs in exchange for the loss of preceptor buff is great relic fist is nice still has the preceptor keyword for the max shots strat what's not to love + sir Hector is cool. Great for supporting the castigator up front. Only Downside I need to put him in an aux detatchment as he's imperialis so costs a cp on the plus side fight when he dies strat with a 4+ws after being fully degraded isn't bad
Armiger Warglaive
Just enough pts left over (2000)
I'm considering this or SoB for the OPG GT in March depending on which missions are selected
It was a good fun game, I lost but that was due to poor luck with Galant (rolled snake eyes for the charge and the reroll over using strat to advance and charge) and didn't resurect him on the 4+, all in that cost me a lot of CP. I also misplayed my valliant and used flamer first which killed the squad out of range of my melta and harpoon, that would have had a big impact on the game. Preceptor with landstrider and helm dominatus was awesome force multiplier.
This was vs a 1k sons list a friend was practicing for a tourney. I lost about 95-65, but it was v close until t4.
Just as a heads up, when you choose a model to shoot you measure what weapons can shoot and they can then all shoot. You can't kill models back to deny the meltas and harpoon if they were declared at the beginning of the shooting activation.
Yes targets and los are all prefireing and all resolve simultaneously so unless you wipe the squad entirely hit their target even if it's no longer visible
Ideasweasel wrote: I’m still holding out for 10th edition to retcon the obscuring rule
What genius thought a 2 way mirror that only one side gets the benefit from and can fire away with impunity was a good idea
Absolute muppet.
Probably the same muppet who somehow thinks a giant walking target has a massive advantage in this game just because it has T8 and 24 wounds, or maybe the TITANIC keyword is some kind of sign that the unit is OP. The problem is, the game has become so lethal that Knights just aren't durable enough for their points, for the most part. Personally I think Knights should at least get light cover in cases where someone is shooting through a ruin at them. Give them at least some meaningful interaction with terrain.
It was an interesting decision by GW to bump up the points cost of the Magaera. What they really should have done was drop the cost of the Crusader by about the same amount in order to make it more of a decision. Knights aren't exactly dominating the meta right now; they didn't need nerfs.
Played a sisters friend last night. (Sisters aren’t even top tier)
He turns off my Invulnerable saves fight last and drops 2 knights.
I feel like in a lot of games you are up against a ticking clock to try and do something meaningful before you run out of assets. Your opponent has all the time in the world because they can hide and trade tiny cheap units to grab objectives.
Lots of work to be done to make knights feel like they fit this edition. But having the same statline as a space marine needs to change. When you whiff with a 500 point unit cause it missed its shots it’s just maddening. Then you have custodes who hit on 2’s rerolling everything and their mother the jealousy kicks in.
They somehow are killier, more tanky and better than units 3x their cost. I had Trajan solo a Magaera easily and he still had a fight on death if he messed up. What’s our Trajan equivalent I want to be able to solo things 1500 pts worth lol (I don’t really but it’s still bs)
I wonder if we will get a codex this or next year but maybe we should email them with ideas and explain what would or won’t work
Admittedly it was a tough mission and I had to force the middle or he’d win on primaries. Very heavy terrain and getting targets to shoot was easier says than done
He could just trade units but maybe making the push T3 would have been smarter
I have had the most success using my speed to avoid direct engagements for the first couple turns, using my firepower to remove key threats before pushing into the board later turns. This tactic is situational to what army I am facing though. Against Tau I am guessing that the full-court blitz is going to be the only way to succeed. At least they lost the Overwatch that made that a death sentence in 8th edition.
I'm actually looking at a Lancer, possibly going house Terryn, to really make that threat stick.
I wholeheartedly agree. Charging in guns blazing is a recipe for disaster. Knights really suck on the receiving end of a charge, and there's almost always a counter-charge threat. My local group hates my Armigers because their speed lets them dictate engagements. First turn with Benediction of the Omnissiah softens them up, second turn with Invocation of Machine Vengeance seals the deal.
We've got a Tau player in our group, but I just haven't had the opportunity against him. I'm hoping that with sufficient terrain, I can work around his Broadsides since they're slow. We'll see how I get on, but I've got some plans. I'll let you know.
That's a solid list. Those are the Warlord Trait and Relic I would take with a list like this, no question. With that many heavy stubbers it might be worth considering the Cognis Stubber stratagem, especially since you'll start with 12 CP. That many Warglaives really demand reroll the hit once per activation, so Glorified History really helps.
I think that the problem will be that your individual power is spread out, and you may lose melee fights even with 9 Warglaives. Chaos people who have tried similar lists found themselves losing enough Armigers each turn that they were eventually tabled and had to get their points early. They are also vulnerable to move-blocking, especially from infiltrating or super-fast units like Serberys Raiders/GSC bikers.
I had a match against Tau. He likes to play a very aggressive Firewarrior-and-Crisis heavy list with only 3 Broadsides. That's not actually unusual from what I've seen from tournament reports. They're too busy spending points on Crisis Suits to have room for lots of Broadsides.
We played Recover the Relics, which has 6 objectives and scores 4 VP for holding 1, 2, and more. The new progressive scoring is 1 VP per unit destroyed each turn, up to 3. This mission also has a funny caveat that you only get your normal CP-per-turn if you control one of 4 center objectives, and you get an extra if you control the one in the opponent's deployment. I went with simple secondaries: Engage on All Fronts, No Prisoners, and Raise Banners. He went with Engage on All Fronts, No Prisoners, and Bring It Down.
Since I have more units, I can wait to deploy my Infiltrators and put both on my right no-man's-land objective, which is harder for him to reach. He gets first turn and I measure out the distances to plan my Raiders' movement. I move them 15" and use both to further protect my right Infiltrators by making it hard to place his Suits or Devilfish within 24". He goes Mont'ka and makes his big push up the board. The Broadsides knock out the Fusilave, the Raiders die, some of the Infiltrators die, and one of the Warglaives gets caught by the Crisis suits. There's a sprinkling of wounds elsewhere; I lose about a quarter of my army. He's on all the objectives on his half of the board and is moving to my unattended left objective.
I had chose Invocation of Machine Vengeance (+1D6 drop the lowest on Advance and Charge) to make sure I could punch back in the midfield. I raised banners on my two objectives and used Circuitous Assassins on 3 Infiltrators to help Engage next turn. My Dunecrawlers leapt into the midboard 11" and picked off the drones. I knocked out 2 Devilfish and killed some Breachers. Then I got all my Knights into close combat after spending 4 CP on Full Tilt for the Crusader, a re-roll and Pack Hunters. The Crusader moved 27", and the Armigers moved about 24" each. I tagged a Crisis team and a commander, and killed both.
At the top of turn 2, he's controlling 4 objectives and my Knights and tanks are out in the middle of the board. He kills all the Armigers and sprinkles some wounds on my other vehicles. At this point he's got both objectives on my left flank and his objective on my right.
I can finally target his Broadsides since they moved out to shoot my Armigers. I bring my guns to bear with Benediction of the Omnissiah, taking the unit with both Dunecrawlers and the Knight. I can't quite catch his other Crisis suits, so I settle for charging disembarked Breachers with my Knight, which kills them. At this point we're both holding our halves of the table, but my 3 Infiltrators arrived on his board edge and are threatening to contest his home objective. I also used Circuitous Assassins on the other unit of ~5 Infiltrators, since I can deploy them directly on his home objective if he moves.
Top of turn 3, he's got a couple Breachers on my far left, a full Devilfish on my the right, and his Crisis suits and Commander on his home objective. I've got 5 Vanguard on my home, 10 on my right, and my Knight on my left. My two Dunecrawlers are still wandering around the middle. He's at ~50VP and running out of resources to get more. My Knight is still at ~20 wounds, so it just doesn't seem like he'll be able to finish it off, and he's got to stop my Infiltrators too. The suits kill the Infiltrators with Airbursts and takes pot shots at the Knight. He also disembarks his Breachers and makes a play for my right objective. The Breachers kill several Vanguard and make the charge with a re-roll to take the objective from me.
On my turn 3, I have to bring the Dunecrawlers over to kill the contesting Breachers. My Knight moves up to finish off the other Breacher squad and frags the lone Devilfish holding the far right objective. My last Infiltrators come down on the left objective after my Knight moved from it, and they raise the banners on it.
His only units left are the Crisis suits and Commander, and he's only holding his home objective. We play out the fourth round quickly and I table him on turn 5 by finishing his suits with my Knight.
He scored 11 on No Prisoners, 10 on Bring It Down, 6 on Engage and 34 on primary, plus 10 painted, for 71. I scored 15 on No Prisoners, 15 on Banners, 12 on Engage, and 48 on Primary, plus 10 painted, for 100. I actually think Knights are going to be okay specifically because Tau aren't going to bring multiple Hammerheads to handle them, since those tanks are a liability otherwise. Crisis Suits and Broadsides don't quite handle Knights efficiently if you trade intelligently.
Rules query if I may. I’ve made a fun Hawkshroud list that’s just a silly one.
Valiant
8 warglaives
2 helverins
The idea being the valiant babysits a key objective or 2 behind a couple of warglaives sat on an objective. He uses his cheeky staunch allies strat as an anti charge deterrent.
The stratagem repulsing conflagration has me pondering things
Can I use staunch allies if a charge is coming in from behind cover. So I won’t be able to shoot at them but I can use the super heroic intervention ability to shuffle in to help.
And the second question is using both stratagems together am I able to do so if the charging unit is targeting a warglaive?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also nice write up dark
Armiger Warglaives [7 PL, 140pts]
. Armiger Warglaive: Freeblade, Meltagun
. . Qualities and Burdens: Random Qualities
. . . Chosen Burdens: Burden: Exiled in Shame, Burden: Obsessed with Vengeance
Knight Valiant [31 PL, 625pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Heirloom: Sanctuary, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
. Two Siegebreaker Cannons and Two Shieldbreaker Missiles: 2x Twin Siegebreaker Cannon
Knight Valiant [31 PL, 625pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Warlord Trait: Landstrider
. Two Siegebreaker Cannons and Two Shieldbreaker Missiles: 2x Twin Siegebreaker Cannon
I still think Valiants are hot garbage, so this dude knows a lot of stuff that I don't.
The Valiant is indeed terrible, that’s kind of why I picked it. But to take 2 is a level of silly that not even I can comprehend, haha that guys a legend
), but given I havent actually seen anyone running anything that isnt a Crusader or a Warden (or a castellan pre 
