About the Knight as character, I believe only 1 (the one made character by Knight Lance) may perform heroic intervention.
The other are character only for the purpose of Trait/Relic (but I will be very happy to be proven wrong).
I believe too that Crusader and Gallant are a little better than the other, and in the end the nerf to 4++ makes room for more balanced threats on the table.
Considering that I play Imperial and not Mechanicus Knight (imho Mechanicus-aligned are more rookie friendly and less punishing towards movement mistake, but Imperial hit faster and harder) my usual choice are:
House Terryn
- Crusader (knight lance - warlord) with Thunder of Voltoris and Blessed by the Sacristan. Even if not Terryn I always pick offensive Trait/Relic, depending on the Household Trait and Stratagem available.
- Gallant with one between 2+ or 4++ or 5++ in close combat (depending on the opponent). If Hawkshorud the Angel' Feather is invaluable as the only way for Imperial Household to counter Smite spam.
- Another Gallant if I need to save point, or a Stiryx/Megaera otherwise (because, even if pricey, it allows to double down on 4++, 5++ in close combat plus a few small bonus like repairing itself of cancel enemy cover... without needing any Relic/Trait).
The remaining point are either for a Space Marine single/double battalion, or for another Knight Lance (this time Mechanicus-aligned for fun) with:
- Preceptor
- double Helverin
That usually put me around 12-19 starting CP without much effort, and the Knight as Warlord save a lot of CP if you wanna go crazy on Traits and Relics (you can effectively give a Trait+Relic to ALL of them for 6CP, for a grand total of 3 Trait + 3 Relic from up to two different Household).
It's interesting to note that all the Quaestoris chassis inevitably die during battle. Usually around the 3°-4° battle round. The nerf to 3++ doesn't seems to have had any meaningful impact from this point of view, but allows easier choices with Rotate Ion Shield.
Since they works as heavy hitter, as roadblock and as distraction the rest of the army can gain advantage in scoring VP (or to position themselves to win the battle in the last few rounds).
I've also found out that Marine are surprisingly useful with Knight (I think more or equal to IG, since I am aggressive I need less meatshield in the backfield and a few Marine can block deep striker too if needed).
They are resilient in cover and able to keep objective towards the end of the battle, once armies are depleted (also due to a smaller footprint and profile)... given that if you have (and you should) taken care of enemy anti-tank.
I think that Knight can be added to almost any other army, and not only IG is a sensible choice to accompany them (except, I don't know, maybe Custodes?).
You simply have to think properly about your general battle plan, what enemy weapon you need to remove, and what you can ignore.
My problem about IG with Knight is that they are exactly the standard anti-horde and anti-tank targets. With Marine I can focus on anti-tank, and almost ignore other weapons, as long as I keep my cover.
For example: last game I was against a Shadowsword, 4 Tank Commander, 6 IG squad and a Ultramarine small battalion with the Beachhead mission. I used the list above with a DA Battalion.
I won by ignoring the SS, clearing the Guard chaff and the Leman Russes first. While he blew up my Knight (none in the first round, 2 in the second, the last in the third) I was scoring point on objectives, and win by VP advantage.
His SS finish the game without being EVER targeted by any of my units.
If I had IG squads instead of Tacticals, his 36 HB shots from SS would have cost me the game.
I just took 5th place at a major GT (and got top Imperial player, only Chaos and Xenos above me) with a 3 Krast Crusader, 2 Tank Commander list. My cheesy army of doom - https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/1009097-.html
Dropping a Crusader for a Gallant is definitely an option, but really what would that 100 extra points buy me? A Wyvern for anti-infantry is about it. I'd rather have the extra firepower from the 3rd Crusader.
I sort of wanted to run Shield Captains behind Gallants, but I guess I should just accept the fact that with Knights they are going to have to be the heavy lifters in the list.I read your report before as I browse that subreddit daily. Guess I'll have to get upgrade sprue to have 3 crusaders then. Congratulations too
Cybtroll wrote:About the Knight as character...
You are absolutely right about knights as characters. The traits and relics are the main thing. To be honest, I wasn't quite sure how do I make them characters but I did some studying and I'm pretty convinced it's good to use those 6 command points. Creates some pretty good combos that way.
About other allies besides guard I think you do make a good point about marines. I don't have too much marines, but that's definitely something to think about. Maybe battalion with scouts and one intercessor squad. Scout bikes could also be useful. Note that I'm thinking about the cheaper options the codex offers as the Knights will be doing the heavy lifting. Then again, Guard offer more bodies and some fantastic utility with mortars, Wyvern with Vigilus detachment and Bullgryns. I feel Custodes are just way too expensive though.
I saw a guy running a list with 3 Gallants and 10 Custodes Bikers at a GT... he went 3-3 though so maybe that's not such a good list. Looked scary though!
As far as Knights as characters... if you're doing 3 Krast Crusaders you really only need to spend 2 CP to get an additional trait and an additional relic. Make your Warlord get First Knight and Headsman's Mark, give one of the others Endless Fury, and give the last Ion Bulwark. If you're against a guy who doesn't have anything the Headsman's Mark helps against, take Sainted Ion armor instead. Really no need to spend 4 more CP for additional relics / traits. If you have a Gallant in there though, then yea you kinda need Landstrider + a Paragon Gauntlet.
I've acquired two more questoris knights now. I'm late to the party I guess, but I'd like to know what's best 3 questoris knights list? Can soup with anything Imperial really. I've seen couple of 3 crusader lists going around, but I'm more interested in Crusader and two Gallants to have points for more soup ingredients.
Any thoughts on this? Planning to run Krast.
I just took 5th place at a major GT (and got top Imperial player, only Chaos and Xenos above me) with a 3 Krast Crusader, 2 Tank Commander list. My cheesy army of doom - https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/1009097-.html
Dropping a Crusader for a Gallant is definitely an option, but really what would that 100 extra points buy me? A Wyvern for anti-infantry is about it. I'd rather have the extra firepower from the 3rd Crusader.
Hallo.
I saw your list on BCP last week and thought it was interesting. I did wonder a couple of things, how do you do versus alaitoc -2/3 to hit flyers and have you found the ironstorm missiles to be good?
It’s a nice list and congrats on your recent high placing
I've not tested it vs any Alaitoc flyer lists yet, but I've thought about them a lot.
First off, unless he's within 12" of me I wouldn't even bother shooting at them. He'd have to get close at some point to shoot me since he has a very close range. Once they get close, -1 to hit won't save him from dying. I'd fire one crusader at it, he'd likely declare lighting fast reflexes, and then my other crusaders and russes would kill a different one.
If I get turn 1, I'll shoot at Dark Eldar flyers if he has them, or try to go for other non-flyer targets. If the only targets he has visible are 3 Alaitoc Flyers, 2 Tank Commanders + 2 Crusaders should be able to kill one even with the -2 to hit, after the first crusader baits out the -1 stratagem on one of the others.
If he gets turn 1, he flies close to shoot me, does a good bit of damage to a Knight, and then I return fire and hopefully kill 2 of them from within 12". I'd probably use a Vindicare Assassin against a list like this, because the ability to just force D3 mortals onto one to score the last wound or two would be invaluable.
It would be an interesting fight, I just don't personally know someone with a list like this to fight against, and haven't had any matches with it yet.
I really like the Ironstorms, they help make up for the lack of Mortars in my list by giving me indirect fire. They're great at killing nurlings and mortar teams that sit behind LoS blocking cover and score points.
Ironstorm pods are always well worth it in my opinion. The flat 2 damage that ignores LoS is really good at just picking off units hiding in the backfield. Plus it’s super cheap.
I just bought one. With the Castellan nerf, I think the Porphy takes it's place as the go-to anti-armor Knight. T9 is effectively -1 to wound vs most common anti-Knight weapons (lascannons, meltas, krak missiles, bright / dark lances, etc), and with a 2+ BS it's downright nasty. Take it as Krast w/ the First Knight trait and the Headsman's Mark.... and it is almost guaranteed to remove any big units from the board in a single salvo.
Well, If you aren't too fond of the idea of winning and are willing to pass for TFG, 3 Gallant with some spare carapace weapons is a classical shock and ave list.
It's probably more a noobhammer rather than a competitive list, but at 1000 it's unlikely the enemies will be able to destroy them.
Unfortunately you can't bring 3 Gallants to 1000 pts.
Solo crusader + Guard is probably your best bet for a 1000 pt list, I'd do a Krast Crusader w/ headsman's and First Knight, and focus on anti-infantry with the Guard, so like 3x3 mortars, maybe a pair of Hellhounds.
You're right, sorry. In my mind it was still around 322(damned Battlescribe!)
I would try to stay full Knight and use 2/3 Helverin with a Quaestoris/Dominus instead (depending from the models you have).
But I personally don't like very much to ally Guard, so take it for what's worth. Guard is still your better options for CP, but at 1000 you may lose your big boy... and do not now what to do with all the CP.
I’ve got a 1,750 pt tournament happening next week and will be running with some unusual AM support.
Commander, primis psyker, two Infantry squads and two manticores plus a unit of scions.
This gives me CP, screening units, some psychic, decent artillery ignoring LOS and a unit that can deep-strike to nab an objective if needed or kill a back line character.
I then sit a crusader with stormspear pod and thermal cannon, warden and gallant alongside them. A sort of jack of all trades threesome...
Warden is warlord with Ion Bulwark and endless fury, blessed by the sacrisians on the crusaders Gatling gun and armour of the sainted ion on the gallant.
11cp after relics etc. The commander has Kurov’s Aquila for a little farming. In reality, I should have 12-13 points during the game.
The knights get up to mid table and shoot/stomp/hack.
The AM hold the back line and fire rockets at the enemy, the scions pop up to cause trouble and the pskyer can either defend the AM or add some deny the witch to the knights.
Hopefully I can deal with most things although flyers will be a pain. Have to hope the boosted Gatlings can take them down.
Not a mega strong list and my first two turns are crucial but I have enough CP to use Cadian AM stratagems on the Maniticores, rotate ion shields and full tilt plus rerolls.
I'm thinking of going Krast either way. I really like the mix of melee and shooting bonuses that house offers. What I'm not sure of is whether the Castellan's Anti-Vehicle firepower is strong enough to compensate for the anti-horde firepower that the three Crusaders offer. I'm also concerned with the shorter range that the Crusaders offer (36 inches for most guns)
I'm thinking of going Krast either way. I really like the mix of melee and shooting bonuses that house offers. What I'm not sure of is whether the Castellan's Anti-Vehicle firepower is strong enough to compensate for the anti-horde firepower that the three Crusaders offer. I'm also concerned with the shorter range that the Crusaders offer (36 inches for most guns)
The shorter range on the Crusaders is realistically only a problem on Hammer and Anvil deployments, against lists with a Castellan or Porphyrion. They will be able to deploy in such a way that turn 1 you cannot bring all firepower to bear on it, and potentially won't have anything in range to shoot at it. On most other maps, 12" move + 36" range guns is plenty.
I like the second list a lot more. Gallants can almost always be prevented from getting a turn 1 charge against important units, and can usually be prevented from getting a turn 2 charge if the player is good at screening, especially since you have almost no screen clearing units. Still, they're great fire magnets, and if they're not dealt with they will win you the game. They're also great vs other Knights players.
With the Warden, I really like the fist on there. I assume it's your plan to take a Paragon Gauntlet vs other Knights players? Only thing it really could use is an Assassin... it might be worth ditching the Warden w/ Autocannon for a plain Gallant to use as a distraction carnifex, and dropping one of the Ironstorm pods, to grab an Assassin.
Has your list changed much Horst from your previous tournament showing. If you have another event will you opt for much of the same?
I played a game recently versus a chaos opponent and got havoc’d into oblivion - I struggled to be out of range of the firepower as he plonked his stuff in the middle and had a lot of anti armour within the 48”(basically covering the board)
My usual household is Taranis and I find that sometimes the extra survivability is nice to have if your stuck going second. But then I really miss the burst damage of Krast.
I also always seem to fail the darkest hour stratagem. And Taranis is a costly house. That’s why I like Krast. Much less CP required.
Yea, my list hasn't changed much. I just took it to a small RTT last weekend, unchanged, and went 3-0. Beat 2 other Knights players and a Tau player. So I'll probably not tweak it at all before my next major, which is in 2 weeks.
Long term though, I'm considering dropping the tank commanders to get in a Graia Battalion with some Dunecrawlers, for more CP. I'm also considering dropping the Tank Commanders and replacing one Crusader with a Porphyrion...
Horst wrote: The shorter range on the Crusaders is realistically only a problem on Hammer and Anvil deployments, against lists with a Castellan or Porphyrion. They will be able to deploy in such a way that turn 1 you cannot bring all firepower to bear on it, and potentially won't have anything in range to shoot at it. On most other maps, 12" move + 36" range guns is plenty.
I like the second list a lot more. Gallants can almost always be prevented from getting a turn 1 charge against important units, and can usually be prevented from getting a turn 2 charge if the player is good at screening, especially since you have almost no screen clearing units. Still, they're great fire magnets, and if they're not dealt with they will win you the game. They're also great vs other Knights players.
With the Warden, I really like the fist on there. I assume it's your plan to take a Paragon Gauntlet vs other Knights players? Only thing it really could use is an Assassin... it might be worth ditching the Warden w/ Autocannon for a plain Gallant to use as a distraction carnifex, and dropping one of the Ironstorm pods, to grab an Assassin.
A Castellan or Tau are my primary concerns for wanting over a 36'' range. I am really liking the option of fielding 4x Avenger Gatling Cannon though.
I'm likely taking Krast's 'First Knight' warlord trait along with Endless Fury on my Warlord Crusader. Then Ion Bulwark and Headman's Mark on a second Crusader. I'll finish out with the Paragon Gauntlet on the Warden. I'm not sure that 'Blessed by the Sacristans' on a third Crusader's Avenger would be worth 2 CP or not, but its an option. If I had a Gallant, it would definitely get 'Blessed by the Sacristans' for its feet. Fifteen attacks, hitting on 2+, rerolling misses is a lot of Damage rolls. I can also get a +1 Str with Knight of the Cog strategim to wound other knights on a 3+. I'd be giving up Landstrider to get it though... I see both the Warden and a hypothetical Gallant as being a counter-charge unit against any kind of melee-focused enemy.
I hear you on the Assassins. I do not have the White Dwarf that their rules came out in, nor the models yet. I'm starting over after quitting in 3rd edition and haven't built much of an army yet. I'll probably hold off on the Assassins until their rules become available officially somewhere.
Horst wrote: Yea, my list hasn't changed much. I just took it to a small RTT last weekend, unchanged, and went 3-0. Beat 2 other Knights players and a Tau player. So I'll probably not tweak it at all before my next major, which is in 2 weeks.
Long term though, I'm considering dropping the tank commanders to get in a Graia Battalion with some Dunecrawlers, for more CP. I'm also considering dropping the Tank Commanders and replacing one Crusader with a Porphyrion...
Congrats on the 3-0
Thinking of taking neutrons or Icarus for AA? Whoa a Porphyrion? What’s your reasoning behind a Krast Porphyrion?
Cybtroll wrote: About the Knight as character, I believe only 1 (the one made character by Knight Lance) may perform heroic intervention.
The other are character only for the purpose of Trait/Relic (but I will be very happy to be proven wrong).
The relic/trait stratagems makes them characters. Character may perform heroic intervene. Do you see ANYWHERE specific exception that normal rules for characters don't apply for those knights? Unless there's some special exception if you are character all the character rules apply.
Horst wrote: Yea, my list hasn't changed much. I just took it to a small RTT last weekend, unchanged, and went 3-0. Beat 2 other Knights players and a Tau player. So I'll probably not tweak it at all before my next major, which is in 2 weeks.
Long term though, I'm considering dropping the tank commanders to get in a Graia Battalion with some Dunecrawlers, for more CP. I'm also considering dropping the Tank Commanders and replacing one Crusader with a Porphyrion...
Congrats on the 3-0
Thinking of taking neutrons or Icarus for AA? Whoa a Porphyrion? What’s your reasoning behind a Krast Porphyrion?
Yea, Icarus crawlers. I'd lose some anti tank, but get better AA, get 5 more CP, be able to use Knights of the Cog, and have better anti psyker.
The Porphyrion is mostly because I just bought the model and am trying to work it into my list.. it looks so cool. 2 crusader and a Porphyrion is certainly better against knights than what I have now, but it would auto lose vs genestealers orks or tau, so it's probably not actually viable. Still, I'll probably use it because it's so freaking cool.
Actually, messing with Battlescribe, I think the best Porphyrion-based list might look something like this:
Battalion of Catachan Guard
HQ Tank Commander (3x Heavy Bolters, Battle Cannon)
Tank Commander (3x Heavy Bolters, Battle Cannon)
Troops
10 man Infantry Squad
10 man Infantry Squad
10 man Infantry Squad
Heavy Support
3 Mortars HWS 3 Mortars HWS
Krast Knights Super Heavies
Porphyrion (Warlord, First Knight + Headsman's Mark)
Helverin
Helverin
Assassin Vanguard
Culexus
Eversor
Eversor
I'll have to test it out. Definitely need to use it in games, even if it's not the best model out there for the game!
It looks kinda scary, but everything in that list other than the assassin's will fold under melee. I'm just not seeing how you would have enough firepower to avoid getting chased into a corner and beat down in melee.
Yea, someone on reddit suggested replacing the Russes with Punishers, which I think is a great idea. Would certainly help keep hordes off me, and the Porphyrion should be more than enough anti-tank.
I keep trying to build a triple crusader list but can’t seem to balance the following
Enough Screen
Enough CP to make Darkest Hour affordable
Enough anti air
Enough non Los shooting
Enough anti tank
If anyone has any tips or recent experience that can help me nail down a list
My reasoning is whilst Krast is clearly superior if you don’t get first turn you just remove knights and start at such a massive disadvantage. Alternating actions would be a much better system than the first turn lottery
I've been thinking about a triple Taranis Crusader list myself...
I think the only way to run one is with dual Battalions for CP, since Darkest Hour is very expensive, and you need to use Machine Spirit Resurgent and have a re-roll to help it go off... so figure 5 CP per turn for it, and add a 6th CP for a rotate ion shields. So you need minimum 6 CP per turn on turns 2 and 3 (after that hopefully you've won)... so minimum 13-14 CP to make the list work.
So my current thoughts on it are to take a Loyal 32 of Astra Militarum + an Astropath, a Rusty 17 of Graia + 2 Icarus Dunecrawlers for anti-tank flyer and anti-light vehicle, and 3 Taranis Crusaders w/ Thermal Cannons and Ironstorm pods. Gives you decent anti-psyker, alongside 19 CP... so even if you spend 4 on extra relics / traits, the 15 left should give you 2 solid turns of bringing a Knight back, a Deny or two from Graia, and a re-roll or two.
I use a solo taranis errant as a backstop for my marine army. The ability to get back up after taking the majority of enemy fire is invaluable for me, this is less so when your running multiple knights. Twice I've had him get back up to just absolutely ace whatever killed him. One game, he was killed by three tank commanders, so he got back up and thermaled one, finished another with his icarus, and smashed the last one with his gauntlet.
Not always going to happen obviously, but the ability to threaten a knight to get back up can give a lot of opponents pause.
Horst wrote: I've been thinking about a triple Taranis Crusader list myself...
I think the only way to run one is with dual Battalions for CP, since Darkest Hour is very expensive, and you need to use Machine Spirit Resurgent and have a re-roll to help it go off... so figure 5 CP per turn for it, and add a 6th CP for a rotate ion shields. So you need minimum 6 CP per turn on turns 2 and 3 (after that hopefully you've won)... so minimum 13-14 CP to make the list work.
So my current thoughts on it are to take a Loyal 32 of Astra Militarum + an Astropath, a Rusty 17 of Graia + 2 Icarus Dunecrawlers for anti-tank flyer and anti-light vehicle, and 3 Taranis Crusaders w/ Thermal Cannons and Ironstorm pods. Gives you decent anti-psyker, alongside 19 CP... so even if you spend 4 on extra relics / traits, the 15 left should give you 2 solid turns of bringing a Knight back, a Deny or two from Graia, and a re-roll or two.
I’m going to experiment more tomorrow. I beat my friends evil Ynnari list before using Triple Taranis Crusaders and it was glorious. He now mainly plays alaitoc. The -2/-3 to hit is a concern. For tournaments I might just have to hope that I don’t encounter such lists. It does seem like a counter, but I suppose you can’t have it all right? What’s the decision behind the Astropath? Also I think that comes to 2001 points
Automatically Appended Next Post: @vilehydra haha the look on your opponents face must have been amusing
The Astropath is there because I had some extra points, and the ability to deny a psychic power is important. with Graia and the Astropath, you get 2 possible ways to try to deny a psychic power, which is important if someone tries to cast something really bad like Doom or Treason of Tzeench or something.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looks like 2000 points even to me.
Ideasweasel wrote: Nice, what are you taking to beef and wing? Triple crusaders again?
Yea, that's the plan. Triple Crusader, 2 Tank Commander has served me well so far, it's 8-1 for tournament games so far, so why change something that seems to work?
Ideasweasel wrote: fair. What would you say your hardest match up is on paper?
I think Genestealer Cults and Daemons are my hardest matches. The GSC have really good anti-tank that can deep strike in close and cut me up in melee, I'm relying on screening + my Culexus to help defend against that but it won't be easy. Daemons are also scary, because I don't have the insane levels of anti-infantry firepower I'd need to reliably kill plaguebearers fast enough. He'd be able to get in close and just smite me to death with Daemon Princes, then charge into melee and rip me up.
Dark Eldar is scary, but their vehicles are fragile enough I can handle them, and Talos Spam is OK, but they're not super reliable against Knights in close combat, so if I get a charge off with 3 Krast Crusaders into some Talos I can rip them up pretty hard.
Craftworlds is potentially scary as well, but their anti-tank isn't that great without the doom + harlequins or dark eldar units, so I can get in close and try to get close enough to mitigate the -1 to hit they have (since all craftworlds players are alaitoc).
Tau is a coinflip matchup. I think whoever goes first just wins.
I am considering switching out one of the Crusaders for a Warden though. I have one basic un-upgraded Crusader, I have the points to swap it out with a Warden w/ a Stormspear+Thunderstrike, which is about the same cost. So I'm effectively swapping a Thermal Cannon out, and gaining a Power Fist and a Stormstrike Pod. Gives me the option to pay 1 CP to take a Paragon Gauntlet, making me significantly better in melee in mirror matchups, which are far and away the most common opponent I fight. My list is 8-1 in tournaments, and of that 6 of those games are vs Knights lists, lol.
Yea, I'm trying out my Warden build at the beef and wing ITC Major in Buffalo this coming weekend.
2 Gallants and a Porphyrion could be fun, but I have a feeling it's going to win big or lose big depending on who you fight. I saw a guy with a list like that at the CTC, I think he went 4-2, so it can certainly do well, just depends on that matchups to be favorable a lot. Like, against other Knights players (so half of all tournament players) I think it's going to dominate.
recently have been thinking of taking the Porphyrion in a super heavy aux as house Raven. Order of Companions should boost it's firepower to about the same levels as a Headsman's Mark w/ First Knight would, since you can re-roll 1's for number of shots and wounds, so I'd get more hits that do a bit less damage. This would mean I have 1150 points left to take either 2 Guard Battalions or a Guard Brigade, to fit in 3 Punishers and some Mortars for anti-infantry.
I could always just run the Porphyrion + 2 Crusaders + Loyal 32 though... I just think it would auto-lose to certain armies. Would be fun though.
It’s such an ace looking model. I’d love to get one. I’ve just recently purchased a couple of punisher tank commanders after a proxy game. The volume of shots is impressive. As a compliment to the anti tank of porphy it could be exactly what you need
He did quite well! I went 4-1, took best Imperial player, placing 10th out of 98 overall.
Game 1 was against Thousand Sons w/ Magnus and Daemons, no vehicles. The Stormspear performed the same as a Thermal Cannon would have, since it was shooting at infantry and daemons mostly.
Game 2 was against Craftworlds w/ Flyers, and the Stormspear was slightly worse than a Thermal Cannon would have been, since Eldar flyers don't have an invuln, and here they got a 5+ armor save. Didn't particularly matter though, since most of those shots missed anyway since they have a -2 to hit.
Game 3 was against Knights... and the Warden took up a Paragon Gauntlet for this. Granted, the game was already a foregone conclusion because I got turn 1 and blew up his Valiant and cut a Crusader in half in my opening salvo, and his return fire didn't do anything more than scratch the paint on one of my Crusaders, but the Warden got in there and punched a fresh enemy Warden to death in a single combat round. Had I gone second, I might have lost my Crusader, and I'd certainly have needed the extra punch from the Warden to claw myself back into the game.
Game 4 was against Jim Vesal, the current top ranked ITC player. I lost, but I managed to get 17 points off of him, so I'll take it. No difference in the stormspear vs thermal, there were no great targets for either, just nothing but plaguebearers or pink horrors to shoot at since the Daemon Princes stayed well back behind them at all times.
Game 5 was against another Daemons player, I asked Jim for some tips on how to play against them and his advice was pretty good (basically boiled down to deploy everything forward on the line and fall back as he approaches, don't worry so much about zoning out deepstrikers to protect a Knight since there isn't anything that deep strikes to one shot a Knight, and take a Vindicare to pop characters) so I adapted my game and won this one handily 29-17. Again, the stormspear was effectively the same as a thermal cannon would have been.
So, overall, it's a bit worse against Eldar, but a LOT better against Knights, and pretty much the same against everything else. I was hoping to fight more Knights players, since I think my list specializes in killing them, but overall I'm happy with it's performance.
Ideasweasel wrote: Congrats on best imperial! Yeah I’ve seen Jim’s path this season. That’s certainly a tough draw!
So what’s next for the list? You sticking with what you have or adapting it a bit?
So, I'm considering dropping the Guard and the Assassin, and subbing in a Graia AdMech Rusty 17. The spare points would go to buying another Warden, and moving one of my Crusaders out of the Krast super heavy detachment into a Mortan super heavy aux. detachment. Mortan's stratagem lets me ignore modifiers to hit... so against Eldar and Daemons, I can just light up those -2 to hit units. Give him an Endless fury and a Battle Cannon and watch him mow down flyers and plaguebearers.
I'd lose my Assassin, but honestly in most games they've underperformed for me. They rarely make a huge difference. Maybe I'm just using them wrong, but I feel saving the 2 CP and making a better primary force would be good. I'd also lose some firepower, since 2 Tank Commanders is far better than a Warden, but I'd gain some durability, and better counter-charge ability since a Knight is obviously sturdier than 2 tanks.
I've got the models for it, though all 4 of my Knights are painted in the same scheme, so I'll probably have to buy a 5th Knight to paint differently to identify it as being from Mortan.
Yea, I'd probably give him that WL Trait with the 2 CP I'd saved from my Assassin, to force the Eldar to get close if they want to ignore the -1 to hit modifier... and if they get close, the Headsman's Crusader will trash the flyers.
Also I need to just try to protect it, since I can't just ignore damage on him like I can on a Krast Crusader, since he's Imperial not Mechanicus.
You give endless fury and -1 on the Mortan crusader
You then give your warlord crusader his free first knight/headmans mark
And then just tailor the wardens to what your facing. Hmm yeah that sounds quite fun to play. You’ll have to let us know how you get on when you try it.
You give endless fury and -1 on the Mortan crusader
You then give your warlord crusader his free first knight/headmans mark
And then just tailor the wardens to what your facing. Hmm yeah that sounds quite fun to play. You’ll have to let us know how you get on when you try it.
Lol there's a tournament on the 15th, and 2 GT's within a few hours of my house in the next month. SO MANY TOURNAMENTS... not enough time to paint things. I can probably slap together a Rusty 17 this week since I already own the models, and spend all next week modifying one of my Knights to stand out slightly so he can be considered a different house.... I will definitely update with results if I try it out!
I ran Mortan a lot up until Feb, whenever I took Knights. It was simply down to the strat, and on rare occations, the warlord trait. When it came up, it was fantastic, however, I switched out eventually as I was facing more non-Eldar armies than Eldar armies at events, and as a result felt like I was seriously missing out on the “top bracket” strat you get with the Mechanicus Households. It also made mirror matchups extremely difficult when you were across the table from a Krast Lance. I was running 2 Crusaders and an Errant at the time (didn’t have the bits for another Gatling! :( and I wanted to avoid the Castellan Crutch).
Did you get bored of knights or just giving your other armies a try?
I brought them originally because they were cool, on offer via the Renegade boxes and because they could be put into some of my armies relatively easily. (I was following the idea of a Raven Guard successor that retained close ties with Kiavahr and its forges and houses.
That said, I can field them solo and I do enjoy doing so from time to time. I keep wanting to seriously test out a Preceptor and 2 Warglaives, but, I need to get around to actually buying those models.
I am debating getting a Knight Porphyrion to run with some Custodes in true golden splendor. That's obviously a big investment. How does the community feel about them lately?
Audustum wrote: I am debating getting a Knight Porphyrion to run with some Custodes in true golden splendor. That's obviously a big investment. How does the community feel about them lately?
The Porphy is a cool model, that I don't think is a 100% top competitive unit. There are too many things that hard counter him. If you take him to smaller local tournaments I think he'll do fine, but against top armies he will die.
If you do use him, the entire rest of your army must focus on anti-horde. Like, I'm considering a Guard/Knights list that's a Porphy, plus a full brigade, containing 3 punisher tank commanders and mortars.
Audustum wrote: I am debating getting a Knight Porphyrion to run with some Custodes in true golden splendor. That's obviously a big investment. How does the community feel about them lately?
The Porphy is a cool model, that I don't think is a 100% top competitive unit. There are too many things that hard counter him. If you take him to smaller local tournaments I think he'll do fine, but against top armies he will die.
If you do use him, the entire rest of your army must focus on anti-horde. Like, I'm considering a Guard/Knights list that's a Porphy, plus a full brigade, containing 3 punisher tank commanders and mortars.
Interesting. So, I was planning to bring an Outrider of 10 Jetbikes with him. They'd all have Hurricane Bolters so 60/120 shots depending on range.
Mathhammering it out, it's not as good as I'd have hoped against Plaguebearers... it will only kill on average 1 more plaguebearer than 2 Catachan russes firing with the re-roll 1's order.
It does significantly increase my firepower against Eldar though, doing an average of 12 wounds to a Hemlock at -2 or -3, instead of doing 5 wounds to a Hemlock with 2 russ Tank Commanders. Still, the increase in survivability and melee ability that the extra Knight would offer I think is still worth it, so I need to test it out. I'm slapping together some stuff for a tournament coming up, I won't have it fully painted but I'll see how it does at a local RTT this weekend.
I'm really enjoying the 4x knight build, but I'm looking at adding a little more firepower by dropping the Warden and getting three Dunecrawlers in its place.
Possibly a little weaker vs many knight lists, but three Krast Crusaders will still do well in close combat with anything that makes it past the firepower. I can boost one to Str 9 with a Canticle stratagem and keep them close together to heroic intervene and double-team a Full-Tilting Gallant or Lancer.
I'm new to 40K, so I'm still experimenting. That said, three Dunecrawlers are a lot more firepower than a Warden, and a good bit of it is anti-air. I haven't run into a flier-heavy list yet, but I want to be ready if I do. And the three tank chassis with a 5++ (re-roll 1's) seem like they would be as tough as a knight though less useful in melee. I'm counting on the three Crusaders to be threatening the stuff that would try to bad-touch my tanks and put pressure on a shooting army, or to counter-charge a melee-heavy army. We'll see!
In the last game I played, Stygies really helped out. I was playing long-range Guard and they focused hard on my knights. I think that having the -1 to hit wimpy 5-man ranger units hiding in buildings made him ignore my Ad Mech units. I won the game because I was able to sweep up his objectives with the rangers in the last couple of turns.
So far, I haven't really run into many heavy-hitting psychic armies. I'm actually planning on upgrading my Ranger squads to carry 6x super-sniper rifles. If I do, I'll definately remain Stygies and my psychic defense will be shooting the snipers in the head.
The list would be something like:
House Krast
3x Crusaders with Thermal Cannon and Stormspear Rocket pods
Stygies IIIV
2x Engiseers
3x6 Rangers with 2x Transauric Arabesques each
2x Dunecrawlers with Icarus Arrays
That leaves me with a few points to play around with yet. I may add Omnispexes to the Ranger squads to ignore cover, or a couple more bodies to cover those Arabesques.
I think this gives me decent (not great) anti-air, the ability to pick out characters that do Psychic or Buff things, and a core of knights to draw fire and stomp on enemies. The knights are definitely my anti-armor component, but the Dunecrawlers and Snipers can help if they need to.
I think he was talking about Knights with Allies going 5-1 at tournaments.... no pure Knights lists are gonna approach a record like that.
As for what GW would need to do to change that... Alaitoc's rule shouldn't apply to vehicles, and Plaguebearers should be 8-9 points instead of just 7. Genestealers are also slaughtering Knights, but I haven't played against them personally so I don't really know much about how they work.
Well, to be precise you can manage either (or somehow both) those issue:
- the smite spam by Hawkshroud Relics (ignora Mortal in Psychic Phase at 4+) or by the Mechanicus stratagems (ignore Mortal on 5+ for 1CP)
- the objsec by the Banner of Macharius Triumphant (only Imperialis, gain objsec and count as 10 model) or by a Freeblade (one of the Qualities, I think "Sworn to a Quest", provide objsec aside other bonus, but always count as 1 model).
The true issue is that you whatever Household and Relics you select you will never be able to cover all those three area simultaneously, and you will seriously struggle to even cover two of them:
1 - Resilience (meaning Taranis or Ion Bulwark or Armour of Sancted Ion or Sanctuary)
2 - Firepower (meaning that anything over Str8 is a Relic, and you have to pick Traits and Relics like Endless Fury to have a competitive level of firepower)
3 - Versatility (see example above about Objsec and smite spam)
I personally pick up Traits and Relics immediately before a game, because if you know your model are an easy way to increase or decrease the competitiveness of your army.
@ideasweasel... I couldn't bring myself to play unpainted admech models at a tournament. It just felt wrong. So I cannot test that list until I finish painting my AdMech, and I won't finish that for a few weeks, so I won't be able to test out my 4 Knight version of my list anytime soon. :(
That said, my Knights/IG list is currently 15-2 in tournament games, over 4 tournaments (2 GT's, 2 RTT's). I went 3-0 with it again this weekend, beating an AdMech + Knights list, an Eldar Soup list, and a Chaos Soup list.
the Eldar guy rolled REALLY well for his saves and made the game way closer than it should have been, because his list wasn't super hardcore but the game was still close. The Daemons guy made quite a few tactical errors that I exploited, game was still super close.
Horst wrote: I think he was talking about Knights with Allies going 5-1 at tournaments.... no pure Knights lists are gonna approach a record like that.
As for what GW would need to do to change that... Alaitoc's rule shouldn't apply to vehicles, and Plaguebearers should be 8-9 points instead of just 7. Genestealers are also slaughtering Knights, but I haven't played against them personally so I don't really know much about how they work.
A few have actually achieved top 5 places at smaller events, your right though allies is unfortunately the only way to place high in a larger event. Alitoc's -1 to hit would be fine if they had to remain stationary for it aswell
I have a couple of knights that I've collected over the years and I only magnetized the arms on one of them. I can lop off the arms on the other two and magnetize them but I would like to be able to make crusaders out of two of them. Where does everyone get the bits for an arm+gun? I see bits out there for just the gun barrel for various types but not the arm or back end of the gun itself
Ebay. You can get any bits you need there, though you pay a pretty penny for them if they're in-demand bits like the Avenger Gattling Cannon or a Missile Pod.
$50.00, but you get a power fist, gattling cannon, missile pod, shoulder melta, and icarus cannon all at the same time. The fist, gattling cannon, and missile pod all cost like $30-40 each if you can find them on ebay.
Hah, yea, that's true. Canis Rex is $130 on amazon, and you can sell the base Knight for ~$90. So you can save like $10. Not worth the time it would take me to sell it on ebay, honestly.
Awesome - thanks! I think I'll do the upgrade sprue...sounds like it should take care of most of my issues
I saw you guys discussing astropaths earlier. They're an auto-include in my guard lists - sometimes more than one. Besides being a cheap DTW one of the powers is Psychic Maelstrom and it dishes out mortal wounds which I've found handy for sniping characters that were getting too close to my lines. Or I'll take Psychic Barrier and cast it on my conscripts to give them a +1 to their save so turn one I can spend 2CP on giving my conscripts cover and then psychic barrier so now they're at a 3+ save for a turn.
Going to a GT next week... considering some last-minute tweaks to my list for things I have models for. Current list is:
Guard Battalion w/ 2 Tank Commanders (3 heavy bolters each), 3 Infantry Squads
Krast Detachment, 2 Crusaders (one with Battle Cannon, both with Ironstorms), 1 Warden (power fist + stormspear pod)
Assassin in reserve.
Considering dropping one of the tank commanders, dropping the assassin, and replacing them with a Company Commander, 3 mortar teams, an Astropath, and a Smash Captain.
I'd go from 9 drops to 13, so I'd still likely have fewer than many armies, and I'd lose 1 Battlecannon, but I'd gain significantly improved anti-horde firepower, significantly improved indirect fire, significantly improved ability to assassinate characters / important vehicles (smash captain >>> assassin in killing single models). Opinions on this?
How are you getting in the smash captain? Also have you looked at the The Emperor’s Fist Tank Company for your guard and take the Hammer of Sunderance relic battle cannon? Flat 3 damage on a battle cannon shooting 2D6 shots hitting on 3's and rerolling 1's is bonkers. Costs you a couple of CP I know but flat 3 is awesome
My problem with BA smash captains is that they come in on turn 2 or 3 kill something and then die. Don't ask me why but my opponent always seems to be able to kill these guys. Got mortal wounded to death by a 10 man scout squad with sniper rifles once...that was embarrassing....
I'd change to cadian if you're going to take the mortar teams. If they don't move your can order them to take aim which for cadians means reroll misses for units that don't move. So at least two units can do that if you keep the company commander around. Think you could scrounge up 10 points and make the tank commander Pask? hitting on 2's rerolling 1's is awesome sauce (especially with HoS)
Another good relic is the Relic of Lost Cadia...that's been my defecto standard since the CP farm went away. For 1 turn all cadian units within 12" of the bearer rerolls hits and wounds against anything chaos. It's more effective with my 100% IG list but still a tank commander/pask and three units of mortars would put the hurt on for one turn.
Yea, I just realized I'd have to take a patrol detachment to get the captain w/ his stratagems, because the aux. detachment doesn't let him use stratagems.
So I'd have to drop 1 of the 3 mortar teams and the stormspear pod on my Warden would be downgraded to an ironstorm pod. Still, it would let me start with 1 extra CP, so that's nice.
The Captain doesn't come in on turn 2 or 3.... he comes in turn 1. He can use a stratagem to basically teleport across the battlefield, then another to get a turn 1 charge off. He's in your face turn 1. So I'd have to pay 4 CP to do it, but he's all but guaranteed a turn 1 charge if I want it, and he can fight twice if I need to. if my Eldar opponent is dumb enough to have 2 hemlocks or flyers within 4" of each other, I can easily kill both by having him charge both, destroy one, then consolidate into the other and use Fight Twice to kill the second one. Against Chaos, he'll easily remove a prince or two in the same fashion, since he's got a 4 damage thunderhammer with +1 to wound.
The smash captain is insanely expensive on CP though, so I don't have the CP to spare to buy a relic cannon for a tank commander, and I'd have to go barebones on relics for my Knights... make the Warden a character, give the Headsman's Mark to one Knight, and Ion Bulwark to the last. The Captain would have to be my Warlord, so I can give him +1 damage as a trait, so his thunderhammer hits for a flat 4 damage. This means I'd start with 11 CP (-2 for relic/trait for Knights, -1 for relic for Captain), and turn 1 I'll spend 4-7 CP to fling my captain into combat, and potentially fight twice. This leaves me with 4-7 CP left for my Knights, basically reserved for Rotate Ion Shields or Machine Spirit Resurgent. Actually, I'd have to give the captain D3 more attacks and +1 to wound, so that's another 2 CP... he's gonna blow 6-9 CP turn 1 depending on what kind of damage I need him to do.
Of course, in some matchups I wouldn't need to go HAM with my captain like that, if I'm fighting Knights players and I get first turn I could just shoot them to death, I'd only need the captain to go Super Sayain if I go second and am in serious trouble. Against Daemons, I wouldn't have to get a turn 1 charge off, since they're going to come to me. Against Eldar, I'd probably have to do it to try to kill his Hemlocks, since if they Jinx a Knight it's very easy to kill them.
I'll have to find that teleporting strat in the BA book I only ever take a battalion of two captains with scouts as a plugin to my guard once in awhile. Had I known about the teleport I'd start him on the board more often. But yeah smash captains can chew through most of your cp in a single turn that's for sure. Between the captains and my guard and Castellan (pre-price hike) I was out of cp but turn 2 easy.
Yep, he can burn all your CP away REALLY fast... I'd probably plan to usually either deep strike him normally instead of blowing 2 CP to teleport him, or keep him back as a counter-charge unit for when something gets too close, but having the option to use him as a turn 1 nuclear missile on any unit I don't like would be invaluable. Of course he can still be screened out like any deep striker, but it gives my opponent more chances to make mistakes, which is great.
Yea... This would let me pick which I need more based on the enemy's list... I can either take First Knight on my Warlord, and use the smash captain more conservatively, or I can save all my CP to blow on the Smash Captain to utterly destroy something.
With my proposed list, I'd start with 12 CP, so if I can hold my Captain back behind my lines as a counter-charge element, I can save the 4 CP it costs to redeploy and give him a 3D6 charge, and instead spend it on extra relics / traits for my Knights. If I'm fighting Eldar, where most of their things have -2 to hit anyway, re-rolling 1's to hit isn't nearly as good as it is vs something like Knights anyway, and putting those CP to use powering my captain so he can help me kill their flyers sounds like a much better use of my CP.
Thinking about it, I could just keep him back and use him to charge flyers when they get too close (and they will, since Hemlocks are 18" range only) and not spend all that CP on him. With good positioning, I might be able to take one out without exposing my captain to insane return fire that way.
So, if he clusters his flyers, send in the smash captain to wreck two of them turn 1. If he doesn't cluster them, then hold the captain back and play more reactive.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, I figured it out... how to get a smash captain into my list, along with a Primaris Psyker, while losing minimal firepower. I swap a Tank Commander out for a Primaris Psyker w/ Nightshroud and Psychic Maelstrom so he can do some decent mortal wound damage, and use the leftover points to upgrade the Warden to a Crusader w/ Battle Cannon and Ironstorm, along with a Smash Captain and 5 man tactical marines squad.
I'm not losing any heavy firepower, the Battle Cannon from the Tank Commander effectively gets "moved" onto the Warden. I lose the power fist, but I really only had it for hand to hand ability vs Knights, and the Smash Captain covers that nicely anyway, so no need for the Warden to have a Paragon Gauntlet when if I need melee against Knights I've already got it covered. I also gain a 5 man tactical squad, which seems trivial, but they'd make great Engineers. Throw them in cover, and T4 with a 3+ save (2+ in cover) behind LOS blocking terrain would be quite durable against most indirect fire weapons, so I can hold a back objective and score ITC secondaries with them.
Exalted Court [-1CP]: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait
Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom
Household Choice: Questor Mechanicus
. House Krast
+ Lord of War +
Knight Crusader [25 PL, 468pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Heavy Stubber, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Thermal Cannon
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer
Knight Crusader [25 PL, 494pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Heavy Stubber, Ironstorm Missile Pod, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer
. Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon w/ Heavy Stubber: Heavy Stubber, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon
Knight Crusader [25 PL, 494pts]: Character (Heirloom of the House), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom (Krast): The Headsman's Mark, Ironstorm Missile Pod
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer
. Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon w/ Heavy Stubber: Heavy Stubber, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon
The decision behind 2x battle cannons was because I liked the firepower my original list had... I had 3x Battle Cannons (2 on Leman Russes) and 3x Avenger Cannons. I need to drop a russ to make room for the Blood Angels detachment, so I can effectively take that tank's main weapon and just throw it onto the Warden, making it a 3rd Crusader. It loses it's power fist, but I don't need the fist anymore if I have a smash captain that fills the same heavy melee role anyway. So I keep the same ranged firepower (though the russ is still better, thanks to re-rolls). Having 3x Battle Cannons and 3x Ironstorm pods means at 72 inches I can still lay some hurt down on you, even if you're diagonally across the table.
Relic wise, I'm giving one of the Battle Cannon Crusaders Headsman's Mark or Endless Fury, depending on the enemy. I'll give him First Knight as well. This means I'll start on 12 CP. I'll spend one pre-game on making my Captain a Death Company Captain for the extra attack, so I'm down to 11. I'm only going to have one Knight with relics / traits doing this, so he's the obvious target to get shot at, so he'll get the Rotate Ion Shields every turn. I don't think there's a need for Ion Bulwark actually, since I'll always have one Knight with a 5++ invuln who's gonna get shot no matter what I do.
It’s funny you mention this but my finding is that Ion bulwark is a bit useless at times with 3 knights. I give it to my warlord. Smart opponents just bait me to use rotate on a knight and then they swap to the other.
If I don’t pop rotate they just focus it down. If only we could rotate based on a 6” bubble
Short version is they just pick the one with a 5++ usually anyway
I like to put Ion Bulwark on the knight with the Headsman Mark, then pair First Knight with Endless Fury to get more chances at those 6's. Both these on a Krast Crusader, for clarity.
Ideasweasel wrote: It’s funny you mention this but my finding is that Ion bulwark is a bit useless at times with 3 knights. I give it to my warlord. Smart opponents just bait me to use rotate on a knight and then they swap to the other.
If I don’t pop rotate they just focus it down. If only we could rotate based on a 6” bubble
Short version is they just pick the one with a 5++ usually anyway
Yup, that's my findings as well. Might as well stop taking it in a list with 3 or more Knights, unless you're planning on combining it with the Armor of the Sainted Ion... then you can have one Knight with a 2+/5++, and 2 with 3+/4++, so against common AP2 weapons everyone saves on a 4+.
So against other Knight players, for example, a lot of the guns are AP2, so it might be a good idea to do that. Against Eldar, most of their anti-tank weapons are AP3 or better, so no point in bothering with the Ion Bulwark since they'll just focus down the 5++ Knight anyway.
bmsattler wrote: I like to put Ion Bulwark on the knight with the Headsman Mark, then pair First Knight with Endless Fury to get more chances at those 6's. Both these on a Krast Crusader, for clarity.
Yup, that's a really good setup if you have 2 relics / 2 traits to spend.
I’ve got the makings of a list that I am putting together, i think it’s going to struggle with CP and is definitely vulnerable to flier spam...but I’m determined to make Taranis work.
I love the alpha strike power of Krast but my luck I always seem to go second and someone just shoots a knight off the table.
A 75% chance to keep him alive(with reroll) for a round of shooting fits my play style I think
Saying that my best results were 3/3 in a tournament using Krast but more often than not I’m staring at a depleted list turn one and feeling sorry for myself haha
Speaking of tournaments anyone competed in any recent that want to share their experiences?
Ideasweasel wrote: I’ve got the makings of a list that I am putting together, i think it’s going to struggle with CP and is definitely vulnerable to flier spam...but I’m determined to make Taranis work.
I love the alpha strike power of Krast but my luck I always seem to go second and someone just shoots a knight off the table.
A 75% chance to keep him alive(with reroll) for a round of shooting fits my play style I think
Saying that my best results were 3/3 in a tournament using Krast but more often than not I’m staring at a depleted list turn one and feeling sorry for myself haha
Speaking of tournaments anyone competed in any recent that want to share their experiences?
I second the interest in tales from tournaments. I'm interested in playing a variation of horst's list at Nova this year so I'm pressed for time for getting play time (since I'm new to knights). Reviewing other peoples battle reports, etc would help a lot.
I'm also interested in hearing how you deal with genestealer cult lists. A buddy of mine plays them and they started showing up in my local RTTs and doing pretty well. My only defense against them has been two units of conscripts to take the heat off my tanks so they can get a good turn of shooting (I highly recommend tank commanders with the gatling turret). Something else I bump into are transports loaded with death Usually a flyer like a storm raven or the space wolves flying shoe box. As IG I love those. People fly them right up to me shoot and kill a tank and murder an infantry squad or two and feel all kinds of confident that I'm as good as dead when they all hop out next turn...until I wrap his flyer with the remaining infantry squads and kill the flyer with my bassies and/or pask. Flyer dies and takes almost 1/2 my opponents points with it.
Ideasweasel wrote: I’ve got the makings of a list that I am putting together, i think it’s going to struggle with CP and is definitely vulnerable to flier spam...but I’m determined to make Taranis work.
I love the alpha strike power of Krast but my luck I always seem to go second and someone just shoots a knight off the table.
A 75% chance to keep him alive(with reroll) for a round of shooting fits my play style I think
Saying that my best results were 3/3 in a tournament using Krast but more often than not I’m staring at a depleted list turn one and feeling sorry for myself haha
Speaking of tournaments anyone competed in any recent that want to share their experiences?
I second the interest in tales from tournaments. I'm interested in playing a variation of horst's list at Nova this year so I'm pressed for time for getting play time (since I'm new to knights). Reviewing other peoples battle reports, etc would help a lot.
I'm also interested in hearing how you deal with genestealer cult lists. A buddy of mine plays them and they started showing up in my local RTTs and doing pretty well. My only defense against them has been two units of conscripts to take the heat off my tanks so they can get a good turn of shooting (I highly recommend tank commanders with the gatling turret). Something else I bump into are transports loaded with death Usually a flyer like a storm raven or the space wolves flying shoe box. As IG I love those. People fly them right up to me shoot and kill a tank and murder an infantry squad or two and feel all kinds of confident that I'm as good as dead when they all hop out next turn...until I wrap his flyer with the remaining infantry squads and kill the flyer with my bassies and/or pask. Flyer dies and takes almost 1/2 my opponents points with it.
I'm happy to share my recent tournament experiences with a (mostly) Knights list. Here's the list for reference:
I was just this last weekend at a GT where I went 2-3, putting me at a paltry 7-10 with this list (1-5 at BAO was rough). I've also had the pleasure of playing against a variety of rather good lists (and losing spectacularly). For example, I've lost to Don Hooson's Chaos list of FW dreads and Jim Vesal's Chaos list of demons + TSons + etc (I've not been stomped by either of them personally, just people using those lists). As a general thing I know my list isn't very good, it's straight up mediocre at best, but it's mine and I like it. I'll talk about how my most recent GT went where I went 2-3 (and won best in faction Imperium apparently?)
GAME 1:
Opponent: Necron player extraordinaire. Tesseract Vault, 3 doomsdays, 3 doom(?)scythes, 9 scarabs, cryptek, 9 tomb blades (I think? The flying shooty things). Result: LOSS 15-31
Game started off alright, he got some good shooting in but had deployed very cautiously and got my Krast knight down to 9 or so turn 1 thanks to the flyers + tomb blades + doomsdays. He also made a line of the flyers ~14" from my Gallant to keep him from going too far. I kill a flyer on my turn, kill 8(of 9 sadly) scarabs with some shooting and my Lancer sprinting forward but can't reach his T Vault. He'd done his Nihilak strat turn 1 to give it a 3++ so I'd ignored it in shooting. Turn 2 it starts going less happy. Krast Crusader dies, Lancer gets chunked, Gallant takes some damage, my Skitarii start dying. My Lancer ends up getting charged by the T Vault and smacked by the C'Tan inside but I do swing back for 12 damage. My turn: Gallant charges a Doomsday Ark and only does 7(!) damage to it since my Chainsword or Gauntlet would be rendered useless by it's Shielding. My Lancer stays stuck in doing 12 more damage but gets smacked to death in return. My Crusader wanted to charge in but juuuust couldn't fit and the Vault flies away with 4 health left. His turn 3, kills my Gallant, reduces my last Crusader to like half, sits his T Vault on a ruin to be un-chargeable. My 3: My Crusader kills the T Vault, steps on the last scarab. His 4: My Crusader finally dies and then it's just a mop up job for him. We math it out and I lose 15-31. We get an early lunch and just shoot the gak. Super nice and fun opponent, cool to see Necrons.
Game starts off with him Scorpius-ing down 2 of my Skitarii squads (ouch) and bringing my Krast Crusader to like 10W left with his Armigers, Plaguebursts, and Twin-gatling Knight. My Turn 1: I do 22 damage from my Krast to his Renegade knight. My other Crusader finishes it off and does some damage to an Armiger. Meanwhile his Demon Prince had gotten a little out of position and was Full Tilted into by my Lancer but he only took 3 damage from my Lance, making 3 of 4 invulns before his Disgusting Resilience. He jumps his demon prince behind his lines after that on his 2. Brings my Krast Crusader down to only 4 with most of his shooting, wiping the rest of my Skitarii as well with his Scorpius. My Lancer had heroically intervened into his plaguebearers and stomped around on them before falling back on my turn to charge his armigers and kill 1. My Gallant had been flanking on the other end and charges into his plaguebearers. My shooting is relatively weak this turn but I kill 1 armiger, a bunch of plaguebearers and do some damage to a plagueburst. From here it's a slow roll through his tanks, eventually tabling him on my 6 with 3 of my knights still alive.
GAME 3:
Opponent: Jim Vesal's list with added MAGNUS THE RED. LOSS: Embarrassingly so
I don't really need to go into detail how this went. I took the Culexus like a dumb dumb which helped dampen his psykers for a little but he got wrapped by plaguebearers so the screen lived all game. Magnus dumpstered a knight, the Demon Prince with Titan slaying axe dumpstered 2 others and by me being super passive I never really gave myself a chance to win. Should have full-press deployed and tried to seize. It would have been my only shot really. Instead I got slowly choked out and lost in sad fashion.
GAME 4:
Opponent: Gunline SM featuring Bobby G. LOSS: 28-23
This game started really well. My Lancer got into his lines and ruined a Captain, I picked up a few Intercessors, Krast Crusader picked up Chronus' predator turn 1. His turn 1 he dumped everything into my Lancer and killed it, but it let my Gallant get into his lines on my turn 2 and kill another Predator, throwing it at Bobby G. The predator had also exploded doing even more mortal wounds to Bobby G and his 1 Leviathan. He shot a lot into my Gallant and killed it but I exploded it on a 4+ using the stratagem, KILLING the big Bobby himself who stood up with only 1 WOUND. Wait, no, it was 6 after a CP re-roll. Well gak. That turned the game around. My Callidus dropped in on 3 and whiffed her shooting on Gman, and only did 4 to him in melee. He picked her up. My Crusaders whiffed their shooting as well, failing to kill his Leviathan or random flyer or last Predator. This was the turn, his re-rolls ruined my Hawkshroud Crusader and I was on my back-foot the rest of the game. I killed his flyer and Leviathan but it was too late. Bobby G, intercessors and the predator poured just enough into my Krast Crusader to kill him on turn 5. If Bobby G had come back with 4 or less wounds, I think I would have won. C'est la vie.
GAME 5:
Opponent: PURE Knights! Raven Castellan, Gallant, 2x Crusaders WIN: 36-13
Whoever went first was going to win 100%. I went first. My Lancer sprinted up and split his Gallant in half, my Crusaders put 18 wounds on his Castellan. All his remaining knights are required to kill my Krast Knight who was rolling 4++ like it was nothing, but he did eventually die. (I made 4 4++ on the Volcano Lance! It was wild) He charged both Crusaders into my Lancer and do some stomping, I swing back but only do 12 to 1 Crusader. My Gallant charged in on my 2 and Paragon'd a Crusader from full to 0. My Lancer finishes the other Crusader. His Castellan lives with 1. His turn he finished my Lancer with his Castellan. My turn 3, I get cheeky and kill his Castellan with my Callidus' shooting. Super fun and cool opponent, no doubt he'd have won had he gone first.
Overall, my list (and me) excell against low/mid tier lists but struggle hard against that top-tier stuff. I still love my big stompy stabby robits though. Let me know if you have any questions. As to how to defeat GSC with a list like mine? I can't. I'd just lose 100%.
Thanks for the battle reports Jakal - that was very instructive! Yeah I need to noodle gsc. I'm sure I'll be bumping into them at Nova no matter what bracket I end up in. I'm starting to lean more to a trip crusaders with rapid fire battle cannons/thermal cannons (you can take both on a single crusader? Need to look that up) and let tank commanders with their punisher gatling cannons take care of sneaky fodder like gsc. Don't know how good 3 infantry squads are going to hold up to gsc - probably not well Might need to squeeze some points out the knights and a 20 man conscript squad for one of the infantry squads
I'm afraid you can take 1 of Thermal or RFBC, both my Crusaders were Gatling/RFBC. I'm not a fan of the Thermal due to how unreliable 1D6 can be. Also, yes, my Rusty 17 is Graia for the psyker defense
Well I took my list to the Basement Open this weekend, went 4-2 with it.
Game 1, I fought against an ultramarines player with 3 forgeworld flyers, guillliman, tiggy, and scouts. I got turn 1, Killed one flyer with shooting, killed the other with the smash captain. He tried to return fire, didn't do much, I then just went and did cleanup.
Game 2, I fought space wolves. I just deployed in a corner, gave him "hold more" every turn as I killed his guys, and eventually tabled him. I scored pretty low, but meh a win is a win.
Game 3... I had to fight Jim Vesal. This was the most exciting game of the weekend for me. I should have taken pictures, but I'm really not good at remembering to take pictures. We got the table quarters deployment, mission was Nexus Control. I parked a Tank Commander on one objective, and the Knights basically up front on the line like I was going to be aggressive, Jim deployed a bit further back so I couldn't charge anything. I got first turn, and moved the Knights back so they were at max range, and killed one of his dreadnoughts (he was using 2 Deredeos instead of his normal 1 C-Beamer guy), and killed a bunch of plaguebearers. The rest of the game he kept moving forward, while I kept falling back to stay out of charge range of his Princes. Eventually, he got close enough that my Smash Captain could get a charge off on his princes. Smash Captain killed the Khorne Prince, a Tzeentch Prince killed him, and then he used Only in Death Does Duty End to kill the Tzeentch prince. After the Khorne prince was broken, I charged in with my Knights, and began the cleanup. It was a low scoring game, since I basically just fell back and gave ground the whole time, and some turns I didn't hold any objectives (and I think one turn I didn't score any points at all) but by being patient and wearing him down, waiting until my Captain could take out the biggest threat to my Knights, let me win. Final score was 26-16. Definitely my favorite game of the weekend.
Game 4, against Genestealer Cults w/ Nid Allies. I (unfortunately) had first turn, so I castled up and didn't kill anything since there very few visible targets, and the ones that I could shoot at I failed to kill. He sent in waves of Abberants, but I used the 2+ armor relic and Sanctuary trait, allowing my Knights to weather the storm. In the end, I had 2 Knights left alive on 1 wound, and 1 healthy Knight that was stomping through his back lines as my 1 wound Knights stayed safely back and held the home objectives. Another low scoring game, but I pulled out a win.
Game 5, against Seeker Missile Spam Tau. This list is specifically designed to kill Knights. He has so many seeker missiles, ion cannons, and plasma weapons, that if he goes first turn mathematically he should kill all 3 of my Knights. Luckily I got the first turn. Unluckily I flubbed my shooting HARD, only killing one of his vehicles and leaving another on 3 wounds. My Smash Captain was in a prime position to take out 2 of his vehicles, and failed his 3D6 re-rollable charge. His turn, he kills the captain, and 2 of my Knights. I try to fight back, but in the end cannot do much. I am destroyed. My dice kinda betrayed me here, this was just sad. There's no way I should have done so little damage turn 1, and a captain failing a charge that has a 93% chance of succeeding is just salt in the wound.
Game 6, against Eldar Soup. I was kind of on tilt from the previous game here, and I made several serious tactical errors. I should have given him first turn, and deployed far enough back that some of his guys couldn't get to me. I also forgot he could Vect my captain's teleport stratagem, and forgot that his solitare could make like a 35" charge and take out my captain. So yea, I played poorly, and my opponent also rolled like a god (seriously, one turn a single remaining skyweaver shot at me with it's haywire cannon... did 7 mortal wounds, and I failed all 7 of my 5+++ saves against them from the stratagem). So it was over fairly fast, and I lost.
The really unfortunately part about this, IMO, is that if I won game 5, I'd have played a nid list in Game 6, which didn't have very much anti-tank. It would have been an almost certain win IMO. If my Shield Captain didn't fail that charge, I'd have removed 8 of his seeker missile shots from play during his first turn, which would have likely saved one of my Knights from certain death, which would have meant turn 2 I have double the firepower going in, which would have potentially meant I win the game. The Smash Captain failing that charge cost me the GT win IMO. Still, without him I'd have not beat Jim in game 3, so the smash captain givith, the smash captain taketh away.
Yea, definitely keeping the smash captain. Failing a charge like that is unlikely, but without him I'd have stood no chance anyway. Like, if I had an extra leman russ instead of the smash captain, I'd have killed an extra Tau vehicle, but it wouldn't have been enough to turn the tide of that game. I needed a BIG punch, and the captain is the only thing that could have done it. He's way better than I thought... 6 to 8 attacks, hitting on 3+, rerolling ones, with +1 to wound at strength 8, with the ability to fight twice and fight on death, with a flat 4 damage hammer is just crazy. You gotta feed him a lot of CP, but Krast doesn't really need much CP anyway, so it works out.
Yeah I failed a 3d6 9" rerollable charge into a baneblade once too :( Wasn't pretty....that's why I'm on the fence with that guy. I mean yeah being able to sneak in and knock off a daemon prince embedded in a unit of plague bearers is gold I just hate trading models. Still...may have to revisit that. And yeah vect is just broken. Had a DA player use that against my smash captain and pretty much neutered his attacks. Only took out one ravager and damaged another before he bit the big one.
I honestly don't see a way to win against Daemons without a Smash Captain being able to go in there and assassinate the Khorne prince. Otherwise, you cannot stop it from assaulting and killing your Knights, and once that happens the game's pretty much over. I mean obviously it's a viable way to counter it, it worked against the best Daemons player in the world, so I'm probably going to keep him around. I think I need to get better at not relying on his teleport + charge stratagem though. As a counter-assault unit for taking out scary things when they get too close, he's great. He did a pretty good job killing Abberants as well, since his 4 damage hammer becomes 3, which still usually insta kills them. For ~180 points, a Smash Captain + Scouts in a Patrol should almost always be an auto-take in a Knights list IMO.
1 CP to make him Death Company pre-game.
2 CP to teleport him
2 CP to get the 3D6 charge
1 CP to give him D3 extra attacks on the charge
3 CP to fight twice
So 9 CP total for a turn 1 alpha strike. He's also gotta be your warlord, so your Knights have fewer relics. Making him the Warlord gives him +1 damage on his hammer, and lets him re-roll failed charges and become immune to overwatch.
Of course, that's an absolute worst-case max cost for him, and should only be used if you need to do something like take out an enemy Castellan, where if it pays off you win the game. Against Daemons or an army that's coming towards you anyway, you don't need to spend the 4 CP to deep strike and charge, you can just wait until he gets close enough for a regular charge, and if your captain dies before he can use the fight again stratagem, he can use fight on death for 2 CP and it's a little cheaper.
It varies. Normally you need 2 CPs to use either Forlorn Fury or (more likely) Upon Wings of Fire to get Captain Smash into position for a T1 charge. Assuming he makes the charge you will want 1CP for Red rampage (extra D3 attacks). Then you will normally want either 2 or 3 CPs to fight a second time in melee (depending on whether he destroys his target or something hits him back hard). Possibly 1 more CP to reroll a failed hit or wound to make sure you force that damage through.
This means 5-7 CPs on average to power him up to the max.
It is worth noting though that you won't always need to pump him up that high. If your opponent does not have any large, powerful targets, he is pretty killy, even without burning a ton of CPs. Plus he has the usual reroll bubble.
That is the beauty of Captain Smash. If your opponent brings something nasty, you dump a load of CPs onto him to turn him into a monster. But you don't have to. Even by himself he is very hitty and killy and will often do the damage you need to take out conventional targets.
Stick the characters in close with your knights for mutual aid. Lots of anti-psyker, three anti-fly melee, indirect and the ability to send two beat-sticks in after infantry hiding. Its probably weak against hordes, but even then its so compact that you might be able to go in and defeat them in detail.
Stick the characters in close with your knights for mutual aid. Lots of anti-psyker, three anti-fly melee, indirect and the ability to send two beat-sticks in after infantry hiding. Its probably weak against hordes, but even then its so compact that you might be able to go in and defeat them in detail.
I've been thinking about a similar list and I think it has a lot of potential, but mine drops Mephiston for 3x5 scouts for the Battalion, starting with 19(!) CP. Also playing around with a list where I run 2x Crusaders with RFBC and 1 gallant to do better against hordes/melee lists. I currently own 0 Blood Angel models however so it's pretty far from happening for me.
I think triple Knights + Blood Angels lists have a lot of potential, I don't know if I've seen many of them tried very often honestly. Especially Krast Knights, since they require very little CP to function, unlike Raven or other Houses.
I have a tournament coming up next month (too soon, I have a lot to paint!!) and I'm planning on running something like Horst runs. I don't have Tank Commander, so I'm planning on just running two Company Commanders. This makes me able to take a bigger detachment of BA, but I'm unsure which route to go, Supreme Command or Battalion. I have two squads of Scouts, so I'd have to run one troop as Intercessors. Supreme Command could be decent. I only really need one supersmash captain for hard targets, the other two can do a bit of work against elf flyers coming my way.
One idea I was pondering is Spearhead detachment with Smash captain or two, and 3 squads of Eliminators for sniping and being tough to remove from cover.
I've been juggling the same question lol. Smash captain, librarian dread and 3x scouts for the battalion or drop the scouts for smashy #2 and get 4 less CP. I honestly think both are very good but I'm leaning towards the battalion for more obsec and scout chicanery
Are you running Krast? Because If your running Krast if your careful the CP might be enough. For Raven/Taranis etc then your probably needing to consider double bat + SHD
In my findings. Some households are far more CP intensive than others. Krast is fortunate in that not only is it one of the best households(you could argue the best) it is also one of the most CP efficient ones to run to
Hope that helps - Horst is your man for a more detailed analysis on the angels and his recent exploits. My experience is more Admech/knights and recently Guard.
Horst wrote:What kind of Knights are you planning on running with the bood angels and guard?
Crusaders, although I have options for others as well. At least if my Warden/Crusader upgrade kit turns up in time.
Ideasweasel wrote:Are you running Krast? Because If your running Krast if your careful the CP might be enough. For Raven/Taranis etc then your probably needing to consider double bat + SHD
In my findings. Some households are far more CP intensive than others. Krast is fortunate in that not only is it one of the best households(you could argue the best) it is also one of the most CP efficient ones to run to
Hope that helps - Horst is your man for a more detailed analysis on the angels and his recent exploits. My experience is more Admech/knights and recently Guard.
Krast all the way. I really feel that House is perfect for Crusaders. And yes, I've read everything Horst types lol. On here and on reddit. His insight is valuable.
Well, running a BA Battalion + Crusaders + IG Battalion could certainly work. I'd try to be careful to not take any more than min sized battalions though, because you're already at 13 drops. Knights absolutely need first turn against some armies (like Tau) because if they hit you first, you just die. Having fewer drops makes it more likely you get that turn 1 in some missions.
You could make it fit with a barebones loyal 32, barebones 2 captains + 3 scout squads, and 3 Crusaders w/ Thermal Cannons and Ironstorm Launchers. You'd have plenty of CP, and the scouts would make great objective grabbers. I think the biggest risk with this list type is if you get Hammer and Anvil, and get stuck against someone who outranges you with lots of chaff infantry, like Guard or Guard w/ a Castellan. They'd just have to shove infantry in front of your Crusaders so they can't move forward on your next turn, then pick off your Crusaders at long range. This is why I like having a few battle cannons mixed into my Crusaders, just in case I need to engage at longer ranges. Still though, that's not a common case, and a list like this should do quite well!
Well, running a BA Battalion + Crusaders + IG Battalion could certainly work. I'd try to be careful to not take any more than min sized battalions though, because you're already at 13 drops. Knights absolutely need first turn against some armies (like Tau) because if they hit you first, you just die. Having fewer drops makes it more likely you get that turn 1 in some missions.
You could make it fit with a barebones loyal 32, barebones 2 captains + 3 scout squads, and 3 Crusaders w/ Thermal Cannons and Ironstorm Launchers. You'd have plenty of CP, and the scouts would make great objective grabbers. I think the biggest risk with this list type is if you get Hammer and Anvil, and get stuck against someone who outranges you with lots of chaff infantry, like Guard or Guard w/ a Castellan. They'd just have to shove infantry in front of your Crusaders so they can't move forward on your next turn, then pick off your Crusaders at long range. This is why I like having a few battle cannons mixed into my Crusaders, just in case I need to engage at longer ranges. Still though, that's not a common case, and a list like this should do quite well!
I should mention it's ETC rules, so drops don't matter. At least not on current ETC missions, where you deploy your whole army and first one who gets to do that chooses to go first or second. So it comes down to a dice roll. And I really prefer at least one RFBC because of the range. Ideally two. I'll have to write some lists and think what models I have access to or what I can acquire in reasonable time.
I think I finally cracked my final list that I'm going to start working towards. It's about as "Knights" as it is Imperial Soup but 1300+ points of Knights counts for something, right? So here's my idea:
This'll start at 1910 points and 19 CP to start. However game-time that'll be more like 12 after 2 CP to buy an assassin, 2 CP on the Captain (Death company + Angels Wings), 2 CP on the Gallant's Landstrider + Crusader's Endless Fury. That brings me alllll the way down to 13 CP to start, which isn't too bad.
The idea here is to use the Blood Angel scouts as advanced obsec/speed bumps vs melee. The dread is a counter-charger. The Gallant is my big, "deal with it now or else" threat, my Smashy gets jumped wherever he needs to be, and the AdMech battalion just sits in the back like a bunch of dumb dumbs. The only thing is that I lose the Storm Shield on Smashy, but I'm using him as a suicide unit so screw it, it's worth it for an assassin.
Jackal444 wrote: I think I finally cracked my final list that I'm going to start working towards. It's about as "Knights" as it is Imperial Soup but 1300+ points of Knights counts for something, right? So here's my idea:
This'll start at 1910 points and 19 CP to start. However game-time that'll be more like 12 after 2 CP to buy an assassin, 2 CP on the Captain (Death company + Angels Wings), 2 CP on the Gallant's Landstrider + Crusader's Endless Fury. That brings me alllll the way down to 13 CP to start, which isn't too bad.
The idea here is to use the Blood Angel scouts as advanced obsec/speed bumps vs melee. The dread is a counter-charger. The Gallant is my big, "deal with it now or else" threat, my Smashy gets jumped wherever he needs to be, and the AdMech battalion just sits in the back like a bunch of dumb dumbs. The only thing is that I lose the Storm Shield on Smashy, but I'm using him as a suicide unit so screw it, it's worth it for an assassin.
What ya'll think?
It's rather sad that to play Knight's your reduced to playing 3 codex's but thats 8th edition.
The stormshield isn't going to be relevant as much as you might think unless he's getting charged.
Jackal444 wrote: I think I finally cracked my final list that I'm going to start working towards. It's about as "Knights" as it is Imperial Soup but 1300+ points of Knights counts for something, right? So here's my idea:
This'll start at 1910 points and 19 CP to start. However game-time that'll be more like 12 after 2 CP to buy an assassin, 2 CP on the Captain (Death company + Angels Wings), 2 CP on the Gallant's Landstrider + Crusader's Endless Fury. That brings me alllll the way down to 13 CP to start, which isn't too bad.
The idea here is to use the Blood Angel scouts as advanced obsec/speed bumps vs melee. The dread is a counter-charger. The Gallant is my big, "deal with it now or else" threat, my Smashy gets jumped wherever he needs to be, and the AdMech battalion just sits in the back like a bunch of dumb dumbs. The only thing is that I lose the Storm Shield on Smashy, but I'm using him as a suicide unit so screw it, it's worth it for an assassin.
What ya'll think?
It's rather sad that to play Knight's your reduced to playing 3 codex's but thats 8th edition.
The stormshield isn't going to be relevant as much as you might think unless he's getting charged.
I used to run 4x knights + AdMech battalion to get some use out of my Lancer. I lost. A lot. Trading the Lancer for the Blangles hurts my mechanical soul but I think it's just a straight up better list.
Jackal444 wrote: I think I finally cracked my final list that I'm going to start working towards. It's about as "Knights" as it is Imperial Soup but 1300+ points of Knights counts for something, right? So here's my idea:
This'll start at 1910 points and 19 CP to start. However game-time that'll be more like 12 after 2 CP to buy an assassin, 2 CP on the Captain (Death company + Angels Wings), 2 CP on the Gallant's Landstrider + Crusader's Endless Fury. That brings me alllll the way down to 13 CP to start, which isn't too bad.
The idea here is to use the Blood Angel scouts as advanced obsec/speed bumps vs melee. The dread is a counter-charger. The Gallant is my big, "deal with it now or else" threat, my Smashy gets jumped wherever he needs to be, and the AdMech battalion just sits in the back like a bunch of dumb dumbs. The only thing is that I lose the Storm Shield on Smashy, but I'm using him as a suicide unit so screw it, it's worth it for an assassin.
What ya'll think?
It's rather sad that to play Knight's your reduced to playing 3 codex's but thats 8th edition.
The stormshield isn't going to be relevant as much as you might think unless he's getting charged.
I used to run 4x knights + AdMech battalion to get some use out of my Lancer. I lost. A lot. Trading the Lancer for the Blangles hurts my mechanical soul but I think it's just a straight up better list.
Your 100% correct in that sadly soup is always better.
I'm still plugging away at working on trying to find the holy grail pure knights list but I'm also ok with that as I'm not likely to be the next ITC or ETC champ anyway so damn it I'm going to do it my way.
I'm like 99% sure the best pure Knights list is going to be 2 Crusaders, 2 Gallants, and 2 Helverins. You can organize it as 2 Detachments, so you start with 12 CP, and you've got enough points left over for 3 Ironstorm pods for indirect fire. It could be quite strong in some matchups.
Horst wrote: I'm like 99% sure the best pure Knights list is going to be 2 Crusaders, 2 Gallants, and 2 Helverins. You can organize it as 2 Detachments, so you start with 12 CP, and you've got enough points left over for 3 Ironstorm pods for indirect fire. It could be quite strong in some matchups.
Personally while I see what your saying, I'd swap the Helverin for warglaives, that way everyone gets an ironstorm and can make more use of better house traits and strategums.
But it would still probably be better without the warglaives and 1 gallant for the 32 and another crusader.
Helvrin's would be better at camping objectives, while Warglaives and Gallants both want to be in the enemy's deployment zone ASAP. I suppose it depends on what kinds of mission's your anticipating. I'm curious as to what people would run for a Household in an all-knight army. Terryn are pretty awesome, but they look really CP hungry. Hawkshroud and Tarranis (sp?) are both tough, and Krast is a solid all-rounder.
In my example all-Knights list, I'd probably do Krast for the 2 Gallants / Crusader detachment so I could take the Headsman's Mark relic, and for the 2 Helverin / Crusader detachment I'd take Mortan, so I could use Slayer of Shadows to shoot down flyers. Since such a list only has 12 CP, probably 8 after buying relics / traits, it's important that no stratagem you use costs more than 1 CP... so Machine Spirit Resurgent, Rotate Ion Shields, Omnissiah's Grace, and Slayer of Shadows would probably be all I use... MAYBE Controlled Aggression if one of the Krast Knights is in combat with a Daemon Prince or something scary that has to die.
Never got to try it... haven't finished painting my AdMech guys. I'm also less hot on it than I used to be, because my new favorite thing is Smash Captains, and that list doesn't have room for one. I added the Mortan Crusader to help take down flyers, but it doesn't help against Daemons players... the Smash Captain does both.
Melee might be sticky for you. The classic Jim Vesal list might give you fits. Also, you might get out-shot in a shooting gallery vs Tau or Purge Chaos dreads if you go second, or even first. Also, make sure to screen good and proper if you face any Blangels. As far as knights go, I like it though. Definitely take Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company for the guard. Slighty concerned about a mirror match against a Krast Knight list since that relic will cause problems for you, but you definitely have the CP to utilize Tanaris well so you'll probably be ok.
I realize I didn't give much advice on how to improve it, but the thing is, I'm not sure what to improve really. It all kind of depends on what you'd expect to go up against. It's kind of the sad reality of knights right now: Out-shot vs dedicated shooting armies, out-fought against dedicated melee.
Yeah Tau is my biggest fear. Thanks for the feedback.
I haven’t playtested it much but I’m going to try and get some practice matches in versus Tau and Alaitoc Eldar to see how it does.
GSC should be quite scary too but I’m actually feeling confident it’s not an auto lose since I have the volume of shots to deal with the numbers
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Horst wrote: Never got to try it... haven't finished painting my AdMech guys. I'm also less hot on it than I used to be, because my new favorite thing is Smash Captains, and that list doesn't have room for one. I added the Mortan Crusader to help take down flyers, but it doesn't help against Daemons players... the Smash Captain does both.
I actually really like your list vs GSC, since the guard can screen well for the knights and the wyverns can blow the GSC away. Altaioc Eldar and Tau will be good tests on how good your shooting really is too. If you know anyone who can pilot a good melee-centric army or a Jim Vesal list, then try to get a game in against that, see how you fare vs melee or control oriented matchups.
I don't think you've got any matchups you can't win with that list. Against Vesal-style Daemons, play cagey, and keep falling back. You need to whittle down the plaguebearers to nothing before they get to your lines, and the mortars / wyverns will help. Once they are gone, you can assault the princes directly and you win. If you let the princes assault you, you lose. Simple as that.
Tau will likely be your hardest matchup, vehicle Tau can easily destroy 2 of your Knights in a single round of shooting, and you lack the big alpha punch to kill them, so even if you get first turn I don't see you winning that match. Hell, you could have another Knight Crusader (so playing at 2500 points vs 2000 points) and I don't think you'd beat vehicle Tau... it just hard counters Knights unless you get first turn and kill half their vehicles, which I don't think is possible without a smash captain suiciding in and taking 2 out in melee.
I think so... most matchups are drastically improved by their presence Granted I haven't used him enough to be sure of that, but it feels good having him as an option.
I know a very devious Alaitoc player and a Tau player. The JV style list is probably something a guy who wins all our local tournaments can put together
Now that would be a challenge. Can’t imagine I’d come out on top but it would be fun to try
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Horst wrote: I don't think you've got any matchups you can't win with that list. Against Vesal-style Daemons, play cagey, and keep falling back. You need to whittle down the plaguebearers to nothing before they get to your lines, and the mortars / wyverns will help. Once they are gone, you can assault the princes directly and you win. If you let the princes assault you, you lose. Simple as that.
Tau will likely be your hardest matchup, vehicle Tau can easily destroy 2 of your Knights in a single round of shooting, and you lack the big alpha punch to kill them, so even if you get first turn I don't see you winning that match. Hell, you could have another Knight Crusader (so playing at 2500 points vs 2000 points) and I don't think you'd beat vehicle Tau... it just hard counters Knights unless you get first turn and kill half their vehicles, which I don't think is possible without a smash captain suiciding in and taking 2 out in melee.
I think so... most matchups are drastically improved by their presence Granted I haven't used him enough to be sure of that, but it feels good having him as an option.
What’s your advice for fighting Alaitoc? Play aggressive or similar to chaos and try and bait flyers into range?
I think against Eldar pure aggression is probably the best way to play, because no matter where you go on the map they can probably get to you anyway. If it's possible, stay out of range of the Farseer to get to you and cast Doom, but that's often not possible since it's on a bike and has such a massive threat range. If you can prevent yourself from being doomed and smited to death, than do so, but if it's not an option, just be aggressive and hope for the best.
Eldar is the matchup where I feel least like I know what to do though. Daemons is clear, and Tau (while lopsided in favor of the Tau player) is pretty clear too. Eldar though, it's gonna depend on the specific list, mission, and terrain a lot I think.
Sounds like it’s probably the right call. I think that’s where I often fail, I misjudged when to push out and play aggressively.
What id probably try to do is have each squad of Graia rangers act as a personal defence attachment for each knight with the engineers bringing up the rear a flat 50%-75% chance to deny is very handy
Going to be arranging a game versus a Tau player. I’ll let you know how I get on
I had a very enjoyable game against Tau last night. I learned a lot and my opponent was both skilled and friendly enough to help a newer player learn.
My list:
Spoiler:
Krast
3x Crusaders with Thermal Cannon, Stormspear Rocket Pods
Warlord with First Knight and Endless Fury
AdMech BN/Stygies IIIV
2x Engiseers
3x5 Rangers
2x Dunecrawlers with Icarus Array and Heavy Stubbers
Dunecrawler with Neutron Laser and Heavy Stubber
14 CP
His list:
Spoiler:
Tau Sept
Etherial with the CP on 6+ relic
Shadowsun
Commander Crisis suit with full... Ion? basically plasma
3x5 Firewarriors
3x drone squads with 7x shield drones, 2x gun drones, and 4x Markerlight drones
3x Broadsides with all the missiles and 4x gun drones
3x Riptides with the 12-shot guns and smart missiles. Two had the anti-air upgrade, one had a drone controller
They were organized in a Battalion and... Spearhead? 9 CP My ignorance of Tau may have got a couple things wrong here, apologies in advance
We were playing ITC rules so he could practice for an upcoming tournament. The mission was 'What's yours is mine' This was my first mission with the ITC rules, so I had a hard time picking intelligent secondaries. My opponent helped by correcting some mistakes I made here. His list was designed in part to make this part difficult. I ended up going with Recon, Behind Enemy Lines, and Old School. He went with Engineers, Titan Slayers, and Big Game Hunters.
I spent two CP to give one Crusader Ion Bulwark and the other one the 2+ save. None of his suits were vehicles, so I don't think that Headsman's Mark would have done anything at all this battle.
He had 13 drops, I had 11, so absent a seize I was going to go first. Set up was Hammer and Anvil. Map had two tall buildings in the center, two shorter buildings in opposite corners, two hills with walls on top in the other opposite corners, and two woods on opposite middle edge-of-map. First objective automatically went into the dead middle of the board. He put his two objectives behind the building in his deployment zone and out in the open kinda close to the hill in my deployment zone. I put two objectives close enough to my building/deployment zone to control it while staying out of LOS and in the woods in his deployment zone much closer to the horizontal center of the board.
Deployment went as per expected. I usually deploy My rangers and characters first on objectives, with a couple in the woods in the middle to make a run for the objective in the center of the map. Both Icarus Dunecrawlers behind my building and out of LOS, the Neutron laser Dunecrawler also in the woods with LOS between the two buildings in the center to his castle, my Warlord and one additional Crusader on my right flank/woods/center of the map and the last Crusader on the left near the hill. He castled everything up in the middle of the board in his woods and on that objective with the exception of an engineer squad of 5x Fire Warriors out of sight behind his corner building. His drones were well wrapped around everything, with long strings of them covering his important stuff with multiple squads of bodies ready to fling themselves into my fire.
He did not seize.
My first turn I threw my Knights forward, ran my Engiseers up behind them, moved my rangers a little to grab objectives without giving away too much LOS-wise, and moved the Dunecrawlers out and forward. After much hemming and hawing on my part, I decided to go after his drones. I wanted to go after the Broadsides and Riptides as they were obviously the killy part of his army, but it felt futile with that many drones. Plus I wanted to cut down on the markerlights coming my way.The Icarus Dunecrawlers were very useful here, and I killed off something like 16-18 out of 21 shield drones and a few gun drones. I shot all my really heavy damage guns into one Riptide after finding out they had 'only' 14 wounds each (I was expecting something like 20). I also shot my Avenger Gatling Cannon into the Riptide, which in retrospect may have been better directed at the drones but I was able to bracket it down to 7 wounds. I took his second Engineer Fire Warrior squad down to one guy, but he passed leadership thanks to the Etherial. Inexperience here, I did not manage to kill anything first turn which would have lost me an Old School secondary point. Fortunately he failed a leadership save on a really beat-up drone squad and the whole unit ran.
His first turn he ran a squad of Fire Warriors out toward the objective in the middle, move-blocking my knight there and holding the objective. Otherwise drones shuffled around a little and that was it. His Bracketed Riptide got healed 3 with a strategim to my annoyance. He got a little unlucky with the Markerlights, only getting re-roll 1's on my Warlord Crusader in the center. He still shot it off of the board, and killed my squad of Rangers that was running for the middle of the board for kill more and hold more.
My second turn I continued to advance my knights, though I couldn't get entirely into his deployment zone with either one for Behind Enemy Lines. I ran an Engiseer up to the center objective and the Dunecrawlers continued their inevitable advance. Shooting I more or less wiped the drones off of the board, leaving one gun drone from the Broadsides and getting a fair number of squads killed. I also wiped the Broadsides. I charged my left-hand Crusader into a Riptide behind the woods in the center of his castle, but that 3+ invulnerable save he was activating every turn really paid off. It was somewhat isolated from the rest of his castle due to shooting casualties and overwatch was reasonable. Through the whole battle, those Riptides were incredibly tough. I was able to bracket it down to 4 wounds, 1 wound away from bottom bracket. I also charged his Fire Warrior squad in the center objective with my Engiseer after killing one with a laspistol. Both sides wiffed, but this accidentally gave me Recon. I'm terrible at remembering mission. I'm seriously going to make handouts for myself and learn to read them at the beginning of every turn just to get better at this. I also missed out on Behind Enemy Lines as I wasn't fully into his Deployment Zone. I had left a toe out, which with our big bases and diagonal deployment zones was hard to avoid.
His second turn he fell back the Riptide out of combat, wiggled around a unit here and there, and called Kal'yun or whatever the 'I reroll everything' command is. His one Riptide wasn't able to benefit due to needing to fall out of combat. He proceeds to shoot the right-hand Crusader off of the table. It had been threatening his Engineer squad hiding behind the building. Despite making every single 6+ roll he made for three turns, at least he is low enough on CP so that he can't activate the +1 wound strategim any more. That is the Knight-killer. Both Engiseer and Fire Warriors wiffed on the middle objective.
My third turn I made sure to get into his deployment zone with the last knight, fell the Engiseer out of combat through a wall and into the right quadrant of the map to maintain Recon. One Dunecrawler Icarus and the Laser Dunecrawler tried to get up into the Objective in the center, but I could only fit one between the two buildings. The third Dunecrawler was kinda hanging out on an objective in my deployment zone. I finished off his done, the Fire Warriors on the center objective, and struggled to damage his Riptides. Those stinking 3+ invulnerable saves and some poor wound rolls really hurt. I tried to charge his Etherial with the knight, took about 4-5 wounds from Greater Good overwatch, and failed the 6'' charge.
His third turn he spends a CP to allow an injured Riptide to operate at full bracket and shoots it forward to contest the center objective with the one Dunecrawler I could fit on it. His Crisis Commander and Shadowsun move close to my knight to contest that objective along with the damaged Riptide he had fought previously. He decides that he lacks the ability to kill the third knight and goes for points instead. He kills the Ranger squad and Icarus Dunecrawler that were holding the objective near the hill by my deployment zone. He charges his Riptide into my dunecrawler in the center of the map and nothing happens on either side. He does learn that Knights are characters when I heroically-intervene into Shadowsun. I only got three wounds and he made all three 5+ saves. Shadowsun sits up from a knight-shaped footprint and just dusts herself off!
The next couple of turns are kind of a blur. The game took 5 hours, as we were both doing a lot of side-talking, meeting friends that came into the store, pausing to buy glue to repair mini's, and generally taking it easy.
I finished off all three Riptides, the Crisis Commander, and the Etherial. I managed to pick up most of my secondary objectives. Last turn I would have killed Shadowsun, leaving him with just his Engineer Fire Warrior squad hiding behind the building in the corner. That would have been Turn 5. Turn 6 would have been basically nothing since I couldn't get someone into LOS with his last squad, and he couldn't kill anything. He'd already maxed out Engineers.
Final score was 24 me to 21 him. Throughout the whole game I was like 7 points behind due to his kill-stuff secondaries rewarding him much more than my movement-based secondaries. It was only on turn 5 that I would have come out ahead, and I'm not sure if I would have played as well as I did under a time limit. I'm still having to ask tons of questions and look stuff up constantly.
I think I'm going to change one of my Crusaders to a RFBC, and switch out the Stormspear Rockets for an Ironstorm Missile on a separate Crusader. The RFBC with get the Headsmans Mark if its called for, and I'll get a little bit if indirect fire to handle a squad hiding out of LOS. It will probably take a few turns to finish one off with d6 shots, but at least I can make the attempt. If I play Tau again, I'm going to try to control the range more deliberately. The Riptides are as fast as my knights, have Fly, and a 36'' range. But I might have been able to engage some of his army while staying out of his Broadsides range or force them to move for that -1 to hit. I'm still considering an Assassin, but I don't think the Callidus is the right answer. Tau spend their CP in big chunks, and her ability only goes off on a 4+ meaning every two strategims will cost 1 extra CP on average.
Sounds like a good game! Good thing you had first turn, I find vs Tau you really need it or you're gonna lose. Going after the drones was the right call. Maybe consider an Eversor vs Tau.... they're durable enough they stand a chance of getting through the overwatch, and with their 6" consolidate move you can often "slingshot" them into combat with things like broadsides to prevent them from shooting again!
Taking out a fair number of his markerlights did make a big difference in the firepower coming my way. That said, Tau seem to thrive in the 36'' range bracket. If you can set up outside that you'll greatly reduce his firepower if he goes first. Since they rely on their castle so much, its usually pretty easy to see where they will be going and measure threat range from there.
I am going to run a detachment of 3 warglaives tu support a Tempestus Scions force (several units with plasma, and hot shot volley guns; and a couple of taurox primes). Which would be the best Household for this little detachment?
All the forgeworld Knights are generally considered "friendly"... they're fine for friendly narrative or open games, but they're not considered competitive. They usually cost 50-100 points more than they're actually worth IMO.
Babar_babar what are you looking for your Warglaives to do for your army? Without knowing for sure, I'm going to strongly suggest looking at either Hawkshroud or Terryn. Both are Questor Imperialis, which will let you Outflank them with the strategim 'Sally Forth'. Hawkshroud will let you operate at full bracket for much longer and gives you the option to heroically intervene much longer distances, and Terryn lets you move and charge even faster and has a fight twice option.
A couple more honorable mentions would be House Griffith (+1 attack in most situations, every model can heroically intervene), House Krast (re-roll hit's in the fight phase), and House Tyrannis (6+ FNP). Keep in mind that to get most of these you'll have to take the Super-Heavy Detachment and get 0 CP from it.
Honestly, though I tend toward Krast myself I find most of the options for households to be pretty nice, which is a sign of a well-balanced codex for me.
Super-Heavy Aux (Krast)
Crusader w/ RFBC, Gatling, Ironstorm
Rusty 17
On the other hand we can include some BA in List B.
List B (19 CP):
BA Battalion:
Captain Smash w/o SS Librarian Dread
3x5 scouts
Rusty 17
Super Heavy Detachment (Krast)
Crusader w/ RFBC, Gatling, Ironstorm
Crusader w/ RFBC, Gatling
Gallant
Also list B can buy an assassin.
I think list B is a better counter to lists that are strong in melee vs knights (Khorne demon prince, primarchs, etc) as well as more disruptive to Tau thanks to Mr I-ignore-overwatch. But I feel List A is sturdier
I'd take list B every time. A Smash captain looks like they are worth a Gallant offensively and can't be targeted by most things until your big knights are gone. The Assassin gives a whole lot of utility and the ability to side-board against certain threats. You don't need as much toughness if you can just kill the stuff that threatens you.
hey gents, very new to Knights. I played them for the first time today running Mortan (was intrigued by the ignore modifiers strat and -1 to hit warlord trait...plus love the colour scheme). Anyway, didn't work as well as I wanted (although to be fair I rolled terribly to hit and wound vs enemy air, even with the strat).
So the rest of my list is Guard Battalion (loyal 32), an assassin, 3x10 deathwatch with 2 captains, 2 helverins and crusader. It looks like Krast would be my best option, but would you take RFBC over the Thermal cannon?(would mean me dropping 1 deathwatch guy with HB out of list). I plan to give the Crusader Iron Bulwark and Headsman's Mark.
Honestly, my experience has been that one knight will get shot off the table in the first round. Same for the second round. Its after that that things start getting better. I'd of course listen if others have had better experiences, but for me it doesn't look like that list has enough to carry through once casualties start mounting up.
That said, it looks like the knight is your primary anti-armor tool. I'd keep the Thermal Cannon. Its shorter range, but better on average against the targets you want to shoot with it. At least, it is better before the Headsmans Mark. I seem to remember a post earlier that indicated that the RFBC gets much better with the HM.
Consider swapping out the Helverins. Knights have better tools.
It really depends on how you want to run your list. Myself i run a galent with landstrider and the 2+ armor save. It makes a great distraction t1 that protects everything else from getting blasted. If it dies it was only 360 pts (not a lot for a knight list) and if it lasts thru the enemys first turn of shooting then your already winning.
As an ally force the galant and 2 armigers also work terrific.
On a different topic with chaos knights due next week and all the reviews i have seen online so far at first they look like just normal knights with chaos added on, but with the potential of mixing knights + mortarion or knights + magnus.... this could get interesting.
Yeah, super godzilla will be a thing, i can see that.
I was thinking how horrible will 10 plauge marines with a 5++ and a 5+++ would be next to chaos castellin running the strat to share invunerable save. Thats gonna take some work to dig through.
I hope we can give knights demonic possession.... that would be AMAZING. doubt it though.
None? Chaos Valiant is 600. 500 base, 35 + 35 for the cannons, 15 + 15 for the missiles. 600. You have to take either 2 cannon + 2 missile or 1 cannon and 4 missiles no matter what so at best it's 595. Loyal Valiant is what, 594?
Prob wouldn’t win many games but how cool would it look
A guy I know already ran that in a GT I attended last year. He did pretty well with it too. It'll be even better once the Chaos Knights book drops and they get actual strats and relics and stuff.
Have people had any luck with putting Blessed by the Sacristans on a Krast Gallant's feet? On paper it looks like it would add a fair number of mortal wounds on top of your regular combat potential. 2+ rerolling would get you a lot of hits, which would give more chances for those 6's to wound. And you could throw the Krast stratagem on top of that for even more hits. I'm curious as to whether people have tried this and found problems I hadn't considered though.
If i am bringing 1 knight, i would be hesitant making it a gallant. You are just giving up a lot of points for a unit that most likely wont see turn 3, let alone 2. Against a hood opponent, they'd recognize the possibility of a T1 charge, screen you out, and lose maybe 1 or 2 IS squads, some cultists, etc.
First knight is more useful on a crusader or even a warden. Where it can fire away for a few turns. And get into cc when the right target presents itself
This would be in a 4x knight list with three Crusaders, an Assassin, and the Rusty 17
Edit: I completely agree with you that a single knight would likely get shot off the table turn 1. It happens to me every game. The trick is to have three more to express your objections.
Based on the limited info from the previews are we still the top dogs in the world of mech warrior 40k style or do we feel we are no longer the fairest metal giants in the land?
I will be testing out the new rules as I love the plug and play aspect that seems possible. One of the biggest bug bears is fun stratagems and options hidden behind a bland/household. For chaos being able to pick and choose and have a ‘build a bear’ approach to knight rules has me a bit jealous.
Anyway let me know what you think as I’d been keen to see your thoughts
Chaos knights are more dynamic and tactically flexible as you described. They can tailor after seeing their opponents list. They have access to re-rolls to hit and twin weapon load outs and some great relics. They shine in terms of fire power on their despoiller class knights.
That being said I still think imperial knights have more brute force, with the ability to ignore damage profiles with mechanicus knights (something chaos lacks), access to 2+ armour save and slower degradation across the board with hawkshroud they are a lot more resilient. Imperial knights also have a much more potent castellan option as well as access to cheaper CP batteries and assassins amongst other allies.
As a player who plays mostly pure knights I much prefer the chaos codex as although it has less options they layet better and are not spread over 9 houses as you described. In the case of the chaos codex less is really more.
Ideasweasel wrote: Yes the above mirrors my thoughts quite succinctly. What household do you usually lean on mushkilla?
For Imperial Knights? Hawkshroud.
For Chaos Knights?
Although I think Iconoclast is stronger. I personally prefer infernal, there stratagems are situational but that's ok. If you need a knight to get back up to win the game, then a 4+ is better than nothing, etc.
The part that really sells me is Daemonic Surge, it's like having three really good stratagems that you can use on multiple knights at the same time and don't cost CP. Being able to take damage to improve the performance of your knights is great, as often I find a knight is either dead or sitting on full wounds. Also not all lists win by destroying your knights and in those match up trading resilience that you are not using for speed and damage is strong.
But that's just my take from the few games I've had with the new codex.
I have a weird choice, i can get 1 Imperial knight Errant or 1 FW Cerastus knight but im not sure what to get.
It would be the first knight in my new army so im looking what to get from gameplay aspect, who would perform best from those choices.
I'm not sure that either of those choices would give you the best experience with Knights generally. That being said, since they are your choices a couple more points to consider:
The Knight Errant could be magnetized so that you could change the weapons around later. With how expensive knights are, I seriously highly recommend you look into this. The Gallant and the Crusader are the two best versions of the basic knight, and even those have some variation that you'll want to be able to do between weapons.
The knights Cerastus look a little over-priced for me, but they are faster and tougher than basic knights. I kinda like the Castigator and Lancer of the variants there. (At least enough to give them a try sometime)
How do we feel about the new FW knight rules? Nothing looks overly impressive now, still feel the Lancer isn't quite good enough. The armigers are interesting though, maybe there's a combo there.
Have to agree even the styrix and magera got nerfed can't ever remember then being competitive and they have been nerfed into never see the field FFS cheers GW I guess I'll just go find my knight's a display case.
It also has 16 shots on the bolt cannon now instead of 14. Honestly I know Ion Bulwark is the go to, but the Reroll 1s to hit warlord trait from Krast is pretty awesome on a Castigator if you're only taking a single Knight (since you wouldn't get the household trait).
Why is everyone acting like the Porphy's been nerfed to oblivion?
It's lost T9, and your 1/3 chance to get a wound back per turn. Who cares? The Castellan went up in points and everyone flocked to the Porphy instead, now the Porphy's been nerfed slightly suddenly it's the end of the world!
Nightlord1987 wrote: T9 chaos porphyrion with Vow of Dominance and Trail of Xestruction/Path to Glory would have been awful.
Maybe, maybe not. But say the above is true - why nerf the unit (without cost reductions to balance the nerfs!) for both sides, Chaos and Imperial, rather than just manipulating keywords or rules so it doesn't benefit from the Chaos buffs?
'Acastus class Knights may not benefit'
Job done right?
These were largely awful rules re-writes on units that barely saw play as it is - which is a real shame. We're looking at some beautifully sculpted resin paperweights now.
Nightlord1987 wrote: T9 chaos porphyrion with Vow of Dominance and Trail of Xestruction/Path to Glory would have been awful.
Honestly I don't think the Chaos Porphyrion would have been THAT great. T10 means almost everything wounds it on a 5+... well the same is true for T9. Only thing that has S9 that's common is a Lascannon, which is not common anyway since massed mid strength shooting is currently meta. It wouldn't have been any more meta shifting than a Krast or Raven Porphyrion, and how often were THOSE played? Basically never.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I just submitted my list for my next GT... I'm trying out a Mortan Knight.
List is mostly Guard (3 tank commanders + pask in 2 battalions) but for my Knights contingent I'm taking a Stormspear Crusader and 2x Helverins from Mortan... I think it will compliment the tank commanders nicely.
The -1 to hit trait on the Crusader should mean the enemy has to divert a lot of firepower to kill it, keeping the tank commanders safe... and pask + 3x tank commanders is a TON of firepower. Hopefully this makes Eldar players and Daemon players less of a threat, -2 to hit on plaguebearers isn't scary if i can ignore it with a Crusader
Las is the only in codex way for some armies to tackle knights besides some other FW ridiculousness. A t10 Chaos Knight that could completely invalidate Lascannon spam would have made everyone riot ( unless it was called Cawls Surge and only available to Imperials).
A T9 Knight already invalidates lascannon spam, because 1 shot, wounding on a 4+, against a 4++ invuln, is never going to be cost effective against a 24-30 wound model.
Chaos can deal with it with infantry using VoTLW, or mortal wound spam.
Eldar can deal with it through mortal wound spam.
Tau can deal with it with focus fire stratagem giving +1 to wound on all guns.
Orks can deal with it through Shokk guns and warbosses with power klaws.
Imperium can deal with it with Krast Crusaders, melee Knights, and smash captains still wounding on 4+.
GSC will laugh at it and rip it down with rocksaws.
T10 is not a boogeyman.... it would have been good situationally, but it's not significantly better than T9.
Nightlord1987 wrote: T9 chaos porphyrion with Vow of Dominance and Trail of Xestruction/Path to Glory would have been awful.
Maybe, maybe not. But say the above is true - why nerf the unit (without cost reductions to balance the nerfs!) for both sides, Chaos and Imperial, rather than just manipulating keywords or rules so it doesn't benefit from the Chaos buffs?
'Acastus class Knights may not benefit'
Job done right?
These were largely awful rules re-writes on units that barely saw play as it is - which is a real shame. We're looking at some beautifully sculpted resin paperweights now.
I dont think its all doom and gloom the castigator now looks like a decent upgrade on a warden where as i never would have considered it before and the new armigers look viable shame about the styrix though
A Porphyrion wasn't 600 points either... it was 840 points. It still costs that much. And now it has similar firepower and survivability to a Castellan, which is 140 points less.
So yea... being upset that a $400 model I bought is nerfed to uselessness seems like a reasonable reaction.
Nightlord1987 wrote: T9 chaos porphyrion with Vow of Dominance and Trail of Xestruction/Path to Glory would have been awful.
Maybe, maybe not. But say the above is true - why nerf the unit (without cost reductions to balance the nerfs!) for both sides, Chaos and Imperial, rather than just manipulating keywords or rules so it doesn't benefit from the Chaos buffs?
'Acastus class Knights may not benefit'
Job done right?
These were largely awful rules re-writes on units that barely saw play as it is - which is a real shame. We're looking at some beautifully sculpted resin paperweights now.
I dont think its all doom and gloom the castigator now looks like a decent upgrade on a warden where as i never would have considered it before and the new armigers look viable shame about the styrix though
Yep, I'd agree that the Castigator might be an exception. I think that's fair. If you were going to a take Warden and feel ok about the difference in points, it's potentially a Warden +. It's probably not quite so worth it to Chaos Knight players where you'd typically go all in on either shooting or melee though.
The new Armigers/Wardogs also might have potential.
The rest of it? We've been bent over by a rules team who seem very out of touch with the way the game they work on plays :/
@horst are you a fan of tricked out cadian wyverns?
I find they compliment my knights nicely. It might be a playstyle thing but I seem to have a vendetta against anything that wants to hide out of LOSlol
The only Cerastus Knight that was any good previously was the Castigator, and it got better at it's job. The Acheron got worse due to the removal of the run rule, as did the Lancer and the Atrapos, as the three of them were more close ranged oriented.
Obviously the Porphyrion got obliterated, and I don't know if anyone bought the silly looking other one.
If you are inclined to take baby Knights, the new Moirax ones look great!
I'll probably still run my four Cerastus list for gits and shiggles.
Cadian Wyverns could certainly be cool, but I don't own any of the models :(
I wanted 4 tank commanders in this list as well, couldn't fit 4 of them + a crusader and 2 helverins in the same list. I could probably ditch the Helverins though, but then I'd lose 3 CP and some good anti-aircraft fire. Mortan Helverins are especially cool... for 2 CP you can use Slayer of Shadows and the Helverin stratagem to re-roll failed hits, so now you're hitting on a 3+ re-rollable against flying units. It should average to ~7 damage onto an Eldar Flyer, which isn't bad.
2k is so hard to squeeze everything in, I always want all the toys.
If you haven’t tried its worth proxying a tank commander as a wyvern with the vigilus detachment bonuses.
I myself love vostroyan tank commander punishers but struggle to squeeze them in. I run two cadian Wyverns and the volume of fire is pretty tasty. The fact that you don’t require LOS has been game winning even when I used to run one. You kind of get diminishing returns after the first one but I just love them so much
Man, I really wanted to include a Vostroyan Punisher, but after thinking about it for a bit I concluded that Pask in a Punisher would be better. I don't get the bonus 6" range, but if I'm fighting Chaos, I can hit plaguebearers with one of the other tank commanders and kill 1-2 of them, use overlapping fields of fire and the vengence for cadia stratagem on pask... 50 shots, hitting on 3+ re-rolling 1's, wounding on 3's re-rolling everything, will mow down those suckers. Pask is there to clear the plaguebearers, and the Mortan Crusader is there to deal with eldar flyers... my 2 biggest bugaboos. Hopefully this goes well, this is my first GT not taking 3x crusaders to lol.
I can sympathise, I love my triple knights but despite the flack from people it’s not as strong as it sounds.
Sometimes the big kick me painted targets are a hinderance
Eldar flyers are a real fear for me. I guess the issue of your opponent bracketing/killing your Mortan knight is somewhat mitigated with two Hellverins able to put some work in his absence
Punisher Pask is indeed cool, hopefully you can get the range to unload hellfury! Do you not you miss not having ironstorm missile pods/mortars?
Against Eldar Flyers, I'll probably hold the Crusader in reserve for 3 CP. Turn 1 I use the Mortan strat on a Helverin, turn 2 I use it on a Crusader. 3 Tank Commanders should be able to kill one eldar flyer, the helverins cripple or kill another... then turn 2 Crusader comes in and kills another and finishes off a crippled one.
I'll miss having missile pods, but they have been mediocre for me lately... they just don't do enough damage. I ran 3x ironstorms at a tournament a few weeks ago, and outside the one guy playing GSC with 3 mortar squads, I they didn't do very much at all. With this list, I'm probably going to take an Eversor mostly (I've got 85 spare points for an assassin) and he'll go into buildings and wreck light infantry for me in them instead of mortars.
U02dah4 wrote: I dont think its all doom and gloom the castigator now looks like a decent upgrade on a warden where as i never would have considered it before and the new armigers look viable shame about the styrix though
With Endless Fury on a warden you actually get more hits on average because of exploding 6's (10.67 vs 11.67 hits). The main things you're upgrading are the move and wounds, which I suppose is worth 23 points. I was initially turned off by the tempest warblade, but it averages the same damage as the chainsword so it does give you some options.
The Lancer though is hot garbage, against knights it only averages one more wound than a gallant with a fist WHEN IT CHARGES...and that's assuming the gallant only has a standard fist vs the paragon gauntlet. Sure it can get a 4++ in melee, but so can any other knight with the right relic+rotate ion shields. And it's almost 100 pts more.
Agree with the what some posters in other threads have been saying, it sucks to see the FW knights lose their fun/specialized "niche", they added some nice variety to the army and were always fun to see and play on the table.
Move wounds and CC output vs most units- and if you wernt going to take endless fury on it e.g. if another warden/crusader has it then shooting damage output
Did y'all see the FW update for the Knights? The Magaera got an amazing boost on the main gun it uses. A straight D3 is quite painful and the exploding 6's is...okayish.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Did y'all see the FW update for the Knights? The Magaera got an amazing boost on the main gun it uses. A straight D3 is quite painful and the exploding 6's is...okayish.
Just a shame it got its 4++ resuced to a 5++ and lost it's ability to regain 1 wound per turn on a 5+ for that.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Did y'all see the FW update for the Knights? The Magaera got an amazing boost on the main gun it uses. A straight D3 is quite painful and the exploding 6's is...okayish.
Just a shame it got its 4++ resuced to a 5++ and lost it's ability to regain 1 wound per turn on a 5+ for that.
Did the previous 4++ only work at range though? Don't have the datasheet in front of me.
That repair ability was not reliable though so I don't think that's losing much. Nice when it happened but that's it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Did y'all see the FW update for the Knights? The Magaera got an amazing boost on the main gun it uses. A straight D3 is quite painful and the exploding 6's is...okayish.
Just a shame it got its 4++ resuced to a 5++ and lost it's ability to regain 1 wound per turn on a 5+ for that.
Did the previous 4++ only work at range though? Don't have the datasheet in front of me.
That repair ability was not reliable though so I don't think that's losing much. Nice when it happened but that's it.
No it was paying quite a points increase for it having a flat 4++, and it wasn't like it was being spammed in competitive matches to indicate that it was OP.
Gw have left it as a 500 point model with nothing to justify it's excessive cost compaired to an errant
The main studio brings out all the OP crap and the NERF's FW models at the first opertunity they get to write the rules for them
Went 3-2 at a fairly local GT this last weekend, thought I'd give you guys an AAR. First, my list:
Tanaris Super Heavy:
Gallants, 2x Crusader w/ RFBC, Ironstorm
Graia 17
Krast Super Heavy Aux:
Crusader w/ RFBC, Ironstorm
Game 1:
Opponent brought pretty fluffy Tsons. Magnus, sorcs, demon princes, bea-utiful forgefiend, rubrics, and a few scarabs and cultists. Deployment was Dawn of War, alternating deployment. I got the +1 and we both rolled a 1 to go first, and he failed to seize.
Round 1:
I cram my Krast Crusader's bullets down Magnus' throat and with some help from my other Crusaders Magnus goes down before he can move. Gallant advances onto a mid-table objective and my Graia all advance for potential psyker denial. His turn 1 is a little lackluster, but he manages to do a lot of damage to my Gallant which will die round 2 but not before killing a demon prince.
Round 2:
Krast Crusader bonks the Forgefiend, my other Crusaders work on clearing away cultists and Rubrics, moving one up to threaten his HQs. His turn he drops in 10 Rubrics and 5 scarabs, committing everything to my right flank. He ALMOST screwed up and didn't leave enough firepower in range of my Gallant to kill it but 10 cultists manage to get a wound through and that proves to be enough to down my Gallant.
Round 3:
My Crusaders move towards my right, finishing off his cultists, some rubrics, and a single scarab. My WL Crusader charges his demon prince and whiffs so hard. I do 4 damage I think. His turn his Scarabs charge into my WL, but I still had at least 2 CP so I interrupt after they swing and do 1 damage to my WL, who then proceeds to stomp his demon prince.
Round 4:
I clear up the scarabs, remaining rubrics, and a sorcerer, leaving him with just 1 sorc left. He concedes at this point. Rough matchup for him once Magnus died. Credit to him, he played hard to get points but just couldn't threaten 4 knights hard enough.
WIN 33-13
Game 2: Opponent brings 3 Iconoclast knights, 1 melee, 2 double gatling, Mortarion, Ahriman. We get pointy dawn of war and he gets first turn.
Round 1: Mortarion is warptimed up to one of my crusaders, which my knights are split in two groups of two to try to thin out his melee threats which only slightly worked. But my Crusader there was well screened by my Graia and he couldn't get into melee with my knights. One Tanaris Crusader does take 14 damage though from all the Gatling. My turn I scatter my knights trying to just kite Morty away, but my Krast knight just whiffs hard and the whole turn I do 3 damage to Morty and 14 to his melee knight, until I charge in with my Gallant and murder his melee knight. In hindsight I should have put more shots into Morty over the melee knight.
Turn 2: RIP Krast boy as Morty ruins him. His double gatlings put the hurt on my Gallant before ruining him in melee with their AP -3 feet. My crusaders limp around trying to get points and do some damage to his WL for Old School.
The next few rounds consist of my running around the edge with my knights, trying and failing to avoid Morty while bleeding points. I do kill his WL, but his 1W remaining Morty murders my last model on the charge on the top of 5. RIP. Loss of pretty bad to pretty good.
Game 3: Opponent brought Admech soup. Mars, Cawl, 4 Robots, 3 new tonks, 2 Iccarus, 5 dragoons, Manipulus, and a bunch o rangers. Alternating deployment, I got the +1 and first turn.
Round 1: My Gallant advances up the board looking to get into his dragoons, which are screening one of the new mortar tonks. My Crusaders start walking around and try to put damage on his Iccarus and tanks but don't really do much. My Gallant makes his 7" charge after a CP re-roll and proceeds to chainsword all 5 dragoons off the board. His turn he backs off my Gallant, plants his robots, and here comes the WRATH of Mars. It did 9 mortal wounds, of which I saved 5 or 6 with the 5+++ FNP stratagem. He dumps everything he has into my Gallant, just getting enough to kill it with a freaking Enginseer in melee. So I spend 3 CP and get right back up on a 4+. But he's screened so well my gallant proceeds to be mostly useless. Still was 3CP to deny Kill 1 and guarantee me Kill More turn 1.
Round 2: I do some more damage to his tanks, enough to kill an Iccarus, and some damage to his Skitarii, but not much other than move up and sit on objectives. One Crusader charges into 2 Enginseers but kills neither. The Gallant gets revenge on the hero Enginseer of turn 1. He kills the Gallant with his Vindicare, which frees up the Robots to basically 1-shot my Krast Crusader with some help from the new tonks. Pretty good turn for him but he's running low on CP and screen. Credit to him, uses the Manipulus to great effect to advance onto objectives to contest Hold More.
Round 3: My non-WL Crusader is screened by the 2 living enginseers who are about to die, so he can't quite get into my opponents lines. I kill 2 robots and he's still got 2 tonks on low profiles and the iccarus is on mid-profile. Both Enginseers die. He does about 8 damage to my Crusader left and rotates hard to my right flank to control that side.
Round 4: My Crusader gets into his lines and touches the robits, while killing a new-tank. My WL Crusader kills another new-tank and the Iccarus dies as well. He continues to compete for Hold More and kill some Rangers.
Round 5: My Crusader falls back to step on some Skitarii nearby and is able to consolidate back into the robots, tying them up again. My WL has made it to Cawl and steps on him. Or maybe that was turn 4? I think it was turn 5 though. Time is about up, so we rush through the bottom of the turn, seeing what he can realistically score. End result is a 27-16 win for me.
Game 4: Opponent is Castellan, 2 Gallants, Warden, Loyal 32.
He got turn 1. I never stood a chance after but I tried to grind out what points I could. Super cool opponent though, let me roll a "what if" on my Krast living through turn 1. Turns out I would have done 3(!) damage. So much for that.
Game 5: Opponent is Tsons Supreme Command with Magnus, a twin-gatling Iconoclast Despoilers with Vow of Beastslayer, and like 60 Iron Warrior cultists which are fearless?
I got first turn with the +1.
Round 1: I move up and he's deployed Magnus well enough I can only just touch him with some of my knights but I get him down to 2. I plink some damage on the twin-gatling bringing him to 14. He proceeds to have a pretty awful psyker phase on his turn but it's JUST good enough to get off warptime so I go to deny that. And roll a 1. So I re-roll. And roll a 1. So Magnus moves to 11.5" from my Krast Crusader with 3 wounds left (having healed for 1). The despoilers brings my Krast down to 13. Magnus Charges. And he rolls an 11. So my Krast takes 18 damage and dies. So I go to intentionally explode and NOW I get a 4. So Magnus is now down to 2 after taking 1 in overwarch. So I roll D6 mortal wounds on him. And roll a 1. So I re-roll and get a 2. God damn that was so close.
Round 2: My knights move on up, pinching him from both of his flanks. I drop a lot of shooting into his 30-man cultist blob and do just enough to kill 31. I seriously would have been out of bullets at the end there so it was damn close. The despoiler only goes down to 10 though but it happens. He proceeds to dumpster fire into my Gallant, super-buff up a Tsons prince, launch that S9 fether into me and roll 5 1s and 2s to wound. So I take my 4+ armor (2+ relic) and make it all. No damage. I only do 4 damage back since -1 to hit and a 3++ is oppressive.
Round 3: I kill the knight and buff prince. He hides everything in a ruin except Ahriman and his second DP. The second DP does better than his brother and brings my Gallant down to 11 before dying on my 4.
Round 4: Ahriman and DP die. He concedes. Fun opponent, good game, had a good time.
Overall: I went 3-2. 3-0 when I went first, 0-2 when I went 2nd. I think that's just sort of the way it is with knights, losing one of them before you go or super early round 2 is pretty rough and they have trouble playing from behind. Had a great time at the event, wondering what to tweak in my list. Might drop the Gall for some Blangles.
It's still an absolute monster against tank-based armies. But if you go against Eldar flyer spam or mass ork or mass GSC, it's not going to make its points back.
Jackal444 wrote: Went 3-2 at a fairly local GT this last weekend, thought I'd give you guys an AAR. First, my list:
Tanaris Super Heavy:
Gallants, 2x Crusader w/ RFBC, Ironstorm
Graia 17
Krast Super Heavy Aux:
Crusader w/ RFBC, Ironstorm
Game 1:
Opponent brought pretty fluffy Tsons. Magnus, sorcs, demon princes, bea-utiful forgefiend, rubrics, and a few scarabs and cultists. Deployment was Dawn of War, alternating deployment. I got the +1 and we both rolled a 1 to go first, and he failed to seize.
Round 1:
I cram my Krast Crusader's bullets down Magnus' throat and with some help from my other Crusaders Magnus goes down before he can move. Gallant advances onto a mid-table objective and my Graia all advance for potential psyker denial. His turn 1 is a little lackluster, but he manages to do a lot of damage to my Gallant which will die round 2 but not before killing a demon prince.
Round 2:
Krast Crusader bonks the Forgefiend, my other Crusaders work on clearing away cultists and Rubrics, moving one up to threaten his HQs. His turn he drops in 10 Rubrics and 5 scarabs, committing everything to my right flank. He ALMOST screwed up and didn't leave enough firepower in range of my Gallant to kill it but 10 cultists manage to get a wound through and that proves to be enough to down my Gallant.
Round 3:
My Crusaders move towards my right, finishing off his cultists, some rubrics, and a single scarab. My WL Crusader charges his demon prince and whiffs so hard. I do 4 damage I think. His turn his Scarabs charge into my WL, but I still had at least 2 CP so I interrupt after they swing and do 1 damage to my WL, who then proceeds to stomp his demon prince.
Round 4:
I clear up the scarabs, remaining rubrics, and a sorcerer, leaving him with just 1 sorc left. He concedes at this point. Rough matchup for him once Magnus died. Credit to him, he played hard to get points but just couldn't threaten 4 knights hard enough.
WIN 33-13
Game 2: Opponent brings 3 Iconoclast knights, 1 melee, 2 double gatling, Mortarion, Ahriman. We get pointy dawn of war and he gets first turn.
Round 1: Mortarion is warptimed up to one of my crusaders, which my knights are split in two groups of two to try to thin out his melee threats which only slightly worked. But my Crusader there was well screened by my Graia and he couldn't get into melee with my knights. One Tanaris Crusader does take 14 damage though from all the Gatling. My turn I scatter my knights trying to just kite Morty away, but my Krast knight just whiffs hard and the whole turn I do 3 damage to Morty and 14 to his melee knight, until I charge in with my Gallant and murder his melee knight. In hindsight I should have put more shots into Morty over the melee knight.
Turn 2: RIP Krast boy as Morty ruins him. His double gatlings put the hurt on my Gallant before ruining him in melee with their AP -3 feet. My crusaders limp around trying to get points and do some damage to his WL for Old School.
The next few rounds consist of my running around the edge with my knights, trying and failing to avoid Morty while bleeding points. I do kill his WL, but his 1W remaining Morty murders my last model on the charge on the top of 5. RIP. Loss of pretty bad to pretty good.
Game 3: Opponent brought Admech soup. Mars, Cawl, 4 Robots, 3 new tonks, 2 Iccarus, 5 dragoons, Manipulus, and a bunch o rangers. Alternating deployment, I got the +1 and first turn.
Round 1: My Gallant advances up the board looking to get into his dragoons, which are screening one of the new mortar tonks. My Crusaders start walking around and try to put damage on his Iccarus and tanks but don't really do much. My Gallant makes his 7" charge after a CP re-roll and proceeds to chainsword all 5 dragoons off the board. His turn he backs off my Gallant, plants his robots, and here comes the WRATH of Mars. It did 9 mortal wounds, of which I saved 5 or 6 with the 5+++ FNP stratagem. He dumps everything he has into my Gallant, just getting enough to kill it with a freaking Enginseer in melee. So I spend 3 CP and get right back up on a 4+. But he's screened so well my gallant proceeds to be mostly useless. Still was 3CP to deny Kill 1 and guarantee me Kill More turn 1.
Round 2: I do some more damage to his tanks, enough to kill an Iccarus, and some damage to his Skitarii, but not much other than move up and sit on objectives. One Crusader charges into 2 Enginseers but kills neither. The Gallant gets revenge on the hero Enginseer of turn 1. He kills the Gallant with his Vindicare, which frees up the Robots to basically 1-shot my Krast Crusader with some help from the new tonks. Pretty good turn for him but he's running low on CP and screen. Credit to him, uses the Manipulus to great effect to advance onto objectives to contest Hold More.
Round 3: My non-WL Crusader is screened by the 2 living enginseers who are about to die, so he can't quite get into my opponents lines. I kill 2 robots and he's still got 2 tonks on low profiles and the iccarus is on mid-profile. Both Enginseers die. He does about 8 damage to my Crusader left and rotates hard to my right flank to control that side.
Round 4: My Crusader gets into his lines and touches the robits, while killing a new-tank. My WL Crusader kills another new-tank and the Iccarus dies as well. He continues to compete for Hold More and kill some Rangers.
Round 5: My Crusader falls back to step on some Skitarii nearby and is able to consolidate back into the robots, tying them up again. My WL has made it to Cawl and steps on him. Or maybe that was turn 4? I think it was turn 5 though. Time is about up, so we rush through the bottom of the turn, seeing what he can realistically score. End result is a 27-16 win for me.
Game 4: Opponent is Castellan, 2 Gallants, Warden, Loyal 32.
He got turn 1. I never stood a chance after but I tried to grind out what points I could. Super cool opponent though, let me roll a "what if" on my Krast living through turn 1. Turns out I would have done 3(!) damage. So much for that.
Game 5: Opponent is Tsons Supreme Command with Magnus, a twin-gatling Iconoclast Despoilers with Vow of Beastslayer, and like 60 Iron Warrior cultists which are fearless?
I got first turn with the +1.
Round 1: I move up and he's deployed Magnus well enough I can only just touch him with some of my knights but I get him down to 2. I plink some damage on the twin-gatling bringing him to 14. He proceeds to have a pretty awful psyker phase on his turn but it's JUST good enough to get off warptime so I go to deny that. And roll a 1. So I re-roll. And roll a 1. So Magnus moves to 11.5" from my Krast Crusader with 3 wounds left (having healed for 1). The despoilers brings my Krast down to 13. Magnus Charges. And he rolls an 11. So my Krast takes 18 damage and dies. So I go to intentionally explode and NOW I get a 4. So Magnus is now down to 2 after taking 1 in overwarch. So I roll D6 mortal wounds on him. And roll a 1. So I re-roll and get a 2. God damn that was so close.
Round 2: My knights move on up, pinching him from both of his flanks. I drop a lot of shooting into his 30-man cultist blob and do just enough to kill 31. I seriously would have been out of bullets at the end there so it was damn close. The despoiler only goes down to 10 though but it happens. He proceeds to dumpster fire into my Gallant, super-buff up a Tsons prince, launch that S9 fether into me and roll 5 1s and 2s to wound. So I take my 4+ armor (2+ relic) and make it all. No damage. I only do 4 damage back since -1 to hit and a 3++ is oppressive.
Round 3: I kill the knight and buff prince. He hides everything in a ruin except Ahriman and his second DP. The second DP does better than his brother and brings my Gallant down to 11 before dying on my 4.
Round 4: Ahriman and DP die. He concedes. Fun opponent, good game, had a good time.
Overall: I went 3-2. 3-0 when I went first, 0-2 when I went 2nd. I think that's just sort of the way it is with knights, losing one of them before you go or super early round 2 is pretty rough and they have trouble playing from behind. Had a great time at the event, wondering what to tweak in my list. Might drop the Gall for some Blangles.
So the Gallant was a liability then? I play Taranis and have swapped mine for a Warden. Having the AVG has provided more useful in so many of my games. That and he gets screened out sometimes
I'm honestly not sure if my Gallant was a liability. It honestly did its job perfectly. Be a large, annoying, immediate threat that my opponent is forced to deal with. In all 3 games I won, my Gallant was either the first target or second. In the games I lost, they knew to just sort of ignore it and hunt down my Crusaders. Now, if I change my Gallant for something, do my Crusaders come more under threat and do I lose more often? I'm not sure. I really like this list, but I just wonder if it could be improved somehow.
I imagine the usual pitfalls of lack of board presence to hold objectives etc are an issue, but wondered if anyone had any stories to share
Do you mean mono four knights list ir 4 knight's plus 32 scum?
As they are vastly different armies.
Mono 4 knight's was working rather well for me untill the FW Knights got nerfed.
The problem is that list struggles for CP when your going to want maximum relics or Warlord traits usually I would start with maybe 5CP out of the 9CP.
You also have limited board presence and hence the knights need to be self sufficient and able to death bubble if required.
Thinking about using the onager eradication beamer to convert some lightning lock armigers because it kind of looks like it would be tesla coil type weapon, opinions? Anybody doing conversions with different weapons?
I think that one of the main strengths of the Valiant is its super-flamer. House Hawkshroud makes the best use of it (which is probably why Junior uses that house) as their strategim allows you to overwatch on behalf of your guard with that nasty flamer (and harpoon, I guess?) then heroically-intervene 2d6 inches with a knight to support whatever is being charged.
The counter-charge approach also allows you to help with some of the Valiant's disadvantages. Its pretty short ranged, slow, and vulnerable to dedicated melee.
So I know the Knight Lancer has taken a bit of a hit with the latest rules update, but I'm still of the opinion that it's the coolest looking Knight.
Is there any viability in running 2 of them? I have one at the moment that has yet to reach the table top, but I had intended to get a second for rule of cool.
I'm not very competitive and neither is my meta, so I'm not too pushed if it's not the most effective points usage.
The two would be played with a bully IG list of hellhounds, bullgryns and infantry.
Typically I play against a gunline DA list with Azreal and a lot of plasma/lascannons or against a fairly random Chaos Space Marines list.
As Knights lack psychic defense I was wondering, if the holy 17 won't help us. Instead I usually read about the rusty 17 and the loyal 32. Are Sororitas-allies just bad? Or simply not available as only few people own them? I mean a 4+ Strategem to end wartime and so on seems good to me. Add a Culexus for fun.
Covenant wrote: As Knights lack psychic defense I was wondering, if the holy 17 won't help us. Instead I usually read about the rusty 17 and the loyal 32. Are Sororitas-allies just bad? Or simply not available as only few people own them? I mean a 4+ Strategem to end wartime and so on seems good to me. Add a Culexus for fun.
Rusty/logical 17, get access to a 4+ deny stratagem too if you run them as gria.
I'm running this list for the LWG Open. Its was inspired when I ran an evesor assassin alongside Bobby G and enjoyed hitting on 2s reroll 1s so much I decided I wanted more of it.
Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 33pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts]
Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 33pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [11pts]: Mortar [5pts]
I know running Bobby G with knights is nothing new so if people have tips I'd appreciate it. Mortan get the +1 to hit when charged/charging so thats a high number of hitting on 2s reroll 1s. Also the combo of Bobby g and Landstrider in vicinity of an armiger gives a threat range of 20" + 3d6 if you use the advance and charge strat.
As a result of taking the guard brigade and bobby as my warlord I'll have a good amount of CP. I fully accept that by keeping my crusader in reserve I miss out on 1 turn of shooting but if I know I'm going second it guarantees at least two rounds of shooting (fight after death strat). Have people tried this many times?
If I know I'm going second (missions 2,4,6 on ITC) or its going to go to a dice roll I plan to keep the crusader off the board till t2. T1 I'll push armigers, bobby and tank commander up one flank. T2 I'll bring the crusader on within 6" of the board edge (which is differently worded to the Tallarn strat and dagger relic which specifiy "wholly within 6"). If the crusader is within 12" of bobby he'll just have a 6" charge to combat. If I am going first then I'd place the Crusader with landstrider near the armigers and then sprint them forward.
Since the nerf I've been running my crusader instead of my castellan. I did some maths and while the a combo of "The black pall" and rotate ion shields is less effective than the old 3++ against BS3 enemies (only about 1.4%), its eqully effective against Bs4 enemies, and better against BS5. How come we aren't seeing a mass conversion of castellan players to House Mortan. Its an indication that the 100 points increase was too much..
Currently I'm running the Endless fury relic as combo'd with Bobby Gs reroll 1s to hit it results in a lot of hits. I have be tempted by the 2+ armour relic or the 5++ in cc (bumped to 4++ in cc with strat). I'd be keen to hear others thoughts.
Does it have a knight in it?
Does it have a wyvern in it?
Does it have a tank commander punisher in it?
All 3 tick my box so I’m a big fan haha
I’ve only recently been experimenting with Mortan so it’s a bit too early for me to say much. As someone who’s been slapped about by alaitoc eldar on a few occasions it really does bring a smile to my face to be able to drop planes out of the sky with ease.
A few tweaking games mostly against orks, Tau and other imperium.
I was running the guard as Catachan, then Mordian but there were a lot units that ended up useless (commisars did nothing as both already had ld 8. Sentinels couldn't move and shoot, pointless taking a punisher tank commander as catachan). I think I've found the sweet spot with Tallarn as they make use of all units and they can keep up with Bobby G and the armigers. I have the option to place 7 units in reserve for 7CP. Its too pricey but does give options.
Tau are particularly tough as once you enter their rapid fire range the knights are in trouble. Keeping the crusader in reserve is a must against the gunline. I spent T1 using mortars and Wyvern to take out the grav drones (Its an easy butchers bill and if you hide properly will probably give you kill more in ITC)
Against orks, Bobby G, evesor combo countercharging was hilariously awesome. Crusader benefits from Bobbys reroll 1s (in shooting, cc and overwatch) Ork Relic SSAG is the bane of my vehicles life. It seems a waste to spend 3CP putting the crusader in reserve against orks but if I know they're going first they'll get to fire off mek gunz, lootas/freebootas and SSAG can put out some pain.
The list may struggle against other Knights. I'll have to get someone to run my castellan against me. Previously against Knights I've been a big fan of forcing a 3CP rotate ion shield and then just using low AP weapons that are uneffected against that knight. Endless fury is pretty good and benefits greatly from Bobbys reroll 1s in overwatch.
How are we feeling about these marines player buffs. Do we think we will be in for a tough time?
Devastator Doctrine will have negligible effect va Ion Shields.
Tactical Doctrine will see a lot of use and I suspect that massed Ap-1/2 bolter fire is going to sting, particularly against Armigers. Even needing 6s to wound against our big Knights, there is still the risk of death by a thousand paper-cuts.
Assault Doctrine will probably not matter often as it does not kick in until T3. Whilst there is some risk of massed attacks as with the Tactical Doctrine, I don't think it will be so bad as Marines in melee with Knights are just one tap-dance away from being squished.
The various Chapter traits that are coming through will certainly make Marines stronger. With Shock Assault, watch out for more Smash Captains, even if Thunder Hammers did nearly double in price.
Marines do not gain much durability but certainly hit harder.
These new super buffed white scars look quite formidable. I’m not quite sure how to change my list to deal with the influx of marines but maybe going for 3 knights + 2 Guard Battalions is the way.
Try and screen them out as best I can. Do those among our number have plans to bring the big guys to any upcoming tournaments?
These new super buffed white scars look quite formidable. I’m not quite sure how to change my list to deal with the influx of marines but maybe going for 3 knights + 2 Guard Battalions is the way.
Try and screen them out as best I can. Do those among our number have plans to bring the big guys to any upcoming tournaments?
Finally gave up on mono knights when thw FW ones got nerf batted thanks to the new choas codex.
These new super buffed white scars look quite formidable. I’m not quite sure how to change my list to deal with the influx of marines but maybe going for 3 knights + 2 Guard Battalions is the way.
Try and screen them out as best I can. Do those among our number have plans to bring the big guys to any upcoming tournaments?
I am planning on switching to mono-dex Guard for a bit, I think it will be more competitive than Knights unfortunately.
What do you think will work best for a Full Knight Match (Loyalist vs Renegade) around 3.000 points?
I've got one planned in a couple of week... I'll play Loyalist and, with 4 classic knight plus a Cerastus at my disposal, I was leaning towards a Lancer and a Gallant strong on defense (5++ in close combat) as baseline... but a I'm more used to play against random opponent rather then specific super-heavy lists.
This chats a bit dead these days. Allow me to ‘darkest hour’ stratagem the thread!
I’ve been having a blast with Taranis knights flanked by Graia rusty 17 + 2 vostroyan punisher tank commanders with old grudges.
Absolutely brutal firepower. I know most people seem to love Krast but I swear by Taranis. It makes going second not utterly depressing lol. Been practising for an upcoming tournament and it’s done well so far.
Anyone got any knight related tournaments on the horizon or stories to share?
I've been working the last tireless week magnetizing a Castellan, two Crusaders, and two Armigers. I hope to get everything primed this week, to prepare for a Tournament in October.
Graia is the go to for their Deny stratagem correct?
Maybe just take them as a household of 3 with an infantry-heavy force?
Like IG & AdMech find them amazing.
I can see the "take one as your warlord bc 4++" is going to disappear, but I would rather spend the CP to Exalted Court a single support Knight to give him that WLT rather than make him Warlord regardless.....
IHateNids wrote: Maybe just take them as a household of 3 with an infantry-heavy force?
Like IG & AdMech find them amazing.
I can see the "take one as your warlord bc 4++" is going to disappear, but I would rather spend the CP to Exalted Court a single support Knight to give him that WLT rather than make him Warlord regardless.....
I have 5k point of marine's if I want to play infantry and 2.5k of tau if I want to play gunline, I have parked my knight's already as I played them mono anyway, no codex should require another codex to be playable.
It more that 4++ crusader is now going to be taking wounds on a 5+ minimum and 2+ vrs lascannons etc. Not to mention the MW that sniper scouts and eliminators will be putting in.
The thing that made me soup was ironically the reaction to soup in the first place.
The Taranis stratagem going up to 3CP after a tournament has a soup list using guard CP farm and an almost unlimited number of get back up Gallants in a streamed tournament
Not long after the nerf was made. 3CP for a chance to do something is just not viable in a mono codex. It actually encouraged me to soup just to be able to afford to do the ability
I would actually prefer they offered a soup cost or mono discount for factions like custodes/knights that can’t spam CP as easily. Make it so your rewarded for staying in 1 book rather than short changing yourself.
Knights do seem like they are in a worrying spot but maybe knights 2.0 might come and address some of the issues. A 5++ melee inv as standard would be nice since the world and his dog can now one shot a knight with all these new flavours of smash captains
Ideasweasel wrote: The thing that made me soup was ironically the reaction to soup in the first place.
The Taranis stratagem going up to 3CP after a tournament has a soup list using guard CP farm and an almost unlimited number of get back up Gallants in a streamed tournament
Not long after the nerf was made. 3CP for a chance to do something is just not viable in a mono codex. It actually encouraged me to soup just to be able to afford to do the ability
I would actually prefer they offered a soup cost or mono discount for factions like custodes/knights that can’t spam CP as easily. Make it so your rewarded for staying in 1 book rather than short changing yourself.
Knights do seem like they are in a worrying spot but maybe knights 2.0 might come and address some of the issues. A 5++ melee inv as standard would be nice since the world and his dog can now one shot a knight with all these new flavours of smash captains
I loved my Styrix for that it was hilarious watching the reactions of wait he has a what? You gave him a relic right? But thanks to choas even the FW Knights got gutted.
The forgeworld nerfs were so heavy handed. I really feel for anyone who bought a porphyrion. It was stupid to alter the stats in the way that they did.
GW sometimes make really good measured adjustments and then other times they throw the baby out with the bathwater
Most FW knights did get gutted, it’s true. I find myself in possession of a castigator though, and that feels like one of the lucky ones. I think it’s a decent pick now.
I’m taking a knight + rusty 17 list to the LGT this weekend. List is:
Taranis lance:
Crusader with TC and ironstorm (warlord)
Warden with fist, ironstorm and melta (had 12 points spare)
Castigator
Super-heavy aux of one Krastsader with RFBC and Icarus autocannons
Graia rusty 17
First game is against chaos with 60 plaguebearers, a few nurglings and bloodletters, and a ton of characters - who presumably intend to smite me a lot. This includes the new Slaanesh mirror thing that forces a morale check on 3d6 to fall back, which is sneaky. I don’t expect that’ll be too much fun but I have a reasonable amount of dakka so I have a chance.
So... Knights vs Iron Hands is just auto-lose, right?
Avenger Cannons going to 1 damage each because they have that -1 damage aura relic seems like it almost certainly negates the ability of Knights to deal with Dreadnoughts, Predator, and Repulsors from range.
Then they all have D6 damage weapons that hit on like a 2+ or re-roll 1's to hit, so we just eat a ton of damage and get vaporized, right? My two armies are Knights and Guard, and I don't see a way for either of them to beat Iron Hands when they can easily negate almost all ranged anti-tank from both of those armies.
I’m hoping that there won’t be a massive influx of iron hands players and you might face a mix of different chapters in a tournament
I guess the game plan against iron hands would just have to be balls to the walls aggressive and ensure you are using shooting and fight phases as best you can. First turn might give you a chance.
I can play no other house than Taranis due to the amount of times someone is able to drop a knight turn 1.
I’m currently having fun with a Mortan crusader and 2 Taranis knights + warden + Graia Batallion
No screen to speak of but i just go super aggressive and hope for the best
Just went 5:0 at the LGT with my knights and rusty 17. Quite happy with that.
I think my formula of 3 Taranis knights and a Krast Crusader is decent. The Krast Guy is just brutal against other knights and the reroll 1s warlord trait is also great. If the enemy don’t have vehicles you can just take endless fury.
I was pretty happy with my Castigator too. The extra speed is nice and I realised in my last game (against other knights) that blessed by the sacristans is actually pretty good on his 16-shot gun. He sends out 2-3 mortal wounds a turn on average, but sometimes more. And his melee weapon is actually useable. It feels like a very decent unit for 430 points.
Yeah Mortan would be interesting too. Having a questor Imperialis guy would also give you some options.
I could link my opponents’ lists if I was a bit less tired. I had some extremely close games, and a couple that were less close.
First was against chaos. Two battalions with 60 plaguebearers, 22 bloodletters and 9 nurglings. Also 3 DPs (2 tzeench and 1 khorne), Ahriman and the new slaanesh mirror thing. I spent two turns killing hardly any plaguebearers but then got to kill the mirror with my warden - it heroically intervened into some plague bearers then fell back over them to get to the mirror and characters behind. Eventually got a 22:20 win, coming from behind.
Game two was against all-nurgle chaos that was not all that dangerous to knights. Zombies instead of plaguebearers with Typhus. Again he was able to swamp the board pretty hard early on and build a lead, but I killed almost everything in the end. Krast knight had a field day against bloat drones. 25:18 win.
Game 3 was against Tau. Opponent game me turn 1, which was a trap, and I walked straight into it. He killed my Castigator and warden as they foolishly tried to get into melee. But my crusaders eventually killed him after the drones ran out. Finished 21:20 - extremely close. In future I think I’d win this by more to be honest.
Game 4 was my first game ever against GSC. Actually turned out to be a really odd one. It was end to end deployment and I was able to screen off my knights completely. The result was that when my opponent’s army had to all deploy at the beginning of turn 3, he couldn’t put his scary stuff anywhere near my knights. I was quite happy to not be in melee with a unit of 10 Aberrants with big hammers. Lots of shooting followed and I won 36:16.
Final game was against other knights. 3 Taranis crusaders, all with TC and ironstorm. Then he had an ultramarines spearhead of chronic in a whirlwind and 3 TFCs and a Graia rusty 17. I went first, he put all his knights in a corner and I blazed away at him. Did a respectable amount of damage in turn 1, though I didn’t drop a knight. Eventually tabled him and won 32:18. By putting all his knights in the corner, he allowed mine to run all over the place and stamp on everything else.
So yeah, a good result all round. I haven’t played much ITC stuff. Finally finished 9th out of 376 people who showed up, which I’m very happy with. I did have the lowest score of anyone with 5 wins, which I think I could do better on in future. I haven’t done much ITC stuff so my scoring wasn’t always on point.
The event itself was good. Compared to last year’s it was a different story entirely. Tables were properly painted (albeit identical) and the venue was quite nice, in a massive sports hall. Space, light and air were all present - unlike last time. Food service was slow but people did get fed. Overall the event was a big success and I’m looking forward to next year’s.
What do you all think of this list idea? I'm thinking of taking it to a local GT in November, if I can get everything I need painted in time. Here's the list:
Spoiler:
Super-heavy Detachment: Imperial Knights (House Krast)
Knight Crusader: RFBC, Endless Fury, Ironstorm Pod, Ion Bulwark (using strats to get warlord trait and relic)
Knight Crusader: Thermal Cannon, Ironstorm Pod
Knight Gallant
Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment: Space Marines
Roboute Guilliman (Warlord)
Battalion Detachment: Astra Militarum (Cadian)
Company Commander
Company Commander
3x Infantry Squad
2x Heavy Weapons Team: Mortars
85 points free for an Assassin
Not 100% decided on which House I want for my Knights, but I've heard good things about Krast. I'm also considering Taranis or even perhaps Raven.
I’m not sure about Gman and how useful he will be in this list though.
In terms of knight houses I tend to play Taranis, Krast, Raven, and Hawkshroud. It comes down to play style but Krast is a strong and reliable whilst being cheaper in CP costs. Taranis is very good but you do need to funnel a lot of CP into it for its effectiveness to show. 8-12 can easily disappear before you know it. I haven’t used Raven in a while but other than buffing the Castellan it’s fun having mobile fast crusaders able to advance and shoot. Hawkshroud is very new player friendly and also makes the valiant be a competitive unit with stratagems.
Right now I think the general approach is to take Taranis if you’ve got 3+ knights or Krast if you only have one.
The reason to take Krast is so as to have access to their relic and warlord trait, both of which are really fantastic. You should give a Krast Crusader a RFBC, not a thermal cannon (because you want to maximise shots), and the hunter’s mark relic. Against other knights the avenger will do 4 damage, the RFBC D3+2 and even the stubbers will do 3! Then if you come against hordes with no vehicles you can give him endless fury instead or save your CPs and not give him a relic. He’s still the best guy to have endless fury, thanks to the rerolls to hit.
Personally I wouldn’t take either Guilliman or the gallant. I think that knights are a shooting army, so I make sure that all of mine have guns, even if it’s just one avenger gatling cannon and an ironstorm pod. A Gallant is forced to charge at things, which isn’t always the best option. And likewise Guilliman doesn’t bring any meaningful firepower of his own, though he does give out some rerolls and is a good beatstick. I’d much rather have a 4th knight spitting bullets out than a cheerleader for 3 of them.
There are quite a lot of people who talk about the gallant as a “distraction carnifex” type unit, but personally I don’t think this works well in practice. It’s true that you force your opponent to kill the gallant by rushing them, but you also make it easy to kill by putting it close to them. This allows your opponent to focus more of their army on one target and also to do lots more smites, fire more rapid fire weapons and things like meltas, plus of course charge the thing if they want. It all adds up to a knight dying much faster and more easily than if it was far away.
And on the flipside, anyone who’s scared of close combat with a knight is scared of it with any knight. A Crusader jumping up and down on something like Tau or IG will still get the job done, so there’s really no need for the Gallant’s better stats – most of the time.
So my approach is to have four knights, all of which can shoot and fight if needed. Spread the firepower around so that I have a lot of T8 wounds for my opponent to get through, none of which come easy. And all of them will hurt things, every turn of the game.
For your CP battery the best approach is almost certainly the Graia rusty 17, rather than the IG. You get a number of benefits from this. Canticles and the knight of the cog strat let you give a bonus to a knight, if you like. They also have a stratagem to deny the witch on a 4+ dice roll, which can be a life saver against things like doom from Eldar or Mind control from GSC. This does mean losing the IG mortars though, so you should try and have as many ironstorm missile pods as possible.
Thanks for the advice guys! I probably should have mentioned that I don't own any AdMech stuff and I don't have a third Gatling cannon to run a third Crusader, hence why I put a Gallant in there. I could, however, replace Gman with a pair of Armiger Helverins, which I do have. I'm well aware of the benefits of the Graia Rusty 17, so possibly I could pick up some Skitarii and a couple of Enginseers.
Sorry, I didn’t factor in whether you actually had the models or not. I play in a lot of tournaments and routinely buy and paint up a lot of models for them, but I shouldn’t assume everyone can do that.
I’d still recommend trying to get hold of a rusty 17 and maybe seeing if you can get another gatling gun somewhere. I found the Skitarii very quick to paint (metal spray, red coats, wash, details) but I spent a while converting up my tech priests. GW actually sells the old finecast techpriest still, for a fair bit less than the plastic one.
Mandragola wrote: Sorry, I didn’t factor in whether you actually had the models or not. I play in a lot of tournaments and routinely buy and paint up a lot of models for them, but I shouldn’t assume everyone can do that.
I’d still recommend trying to get hold of a rusty 17 and maybe seeing if you can get another gatling gun somewhere. I found the Skitarii very quick to paint (metal spray, red coats, wash, details) but I spent a while converting up my tech priests. GW actually sells the old finecast techpriest still, for a fair bit less than the plastic one.
Mandragola wrote: Game 4 was my first game ever against GSC. Actually turned out to be a really odd one. It was end to end deployment and I was able to screen off my knights completely. The result was that when my opponent’s army had to all deploy at the beginning of turn 3, he couldn’t put his scary stuff anywhere near my knights. I was quite happy to not be in melee with a unit of 10 Aberrants with big hammers. Lots of shooting followed and I won 36:16.
What method did you use to screen out the GSC? I haven't played them yet, but it looks like it would be a nightmare to screen them with 17 guys when they can pop in at 3'.
Ideasweasel wrote: I’m not giving up on knights yet. My list might change a bit though
The question is to what.
@horst. How goes the swap over to guard. Are you still tinkering with Krast?
I'm still teetering on the edge of which army to bring to events. I think triple crusader / 2 tank commander is still very powerful, but on the other hand, when it gets a bad matchup it loses HARD. When it gets a good matchup it wins really easily though. Guard will always have options and will never die super easily, but overall every game will be harder.
I feel like if I play Knights, I'll be guaranteed a good finish but probably not win overall, and if I play Guard I have a shot at winning overall but am more likely to place worse. :-/
Mandragola wrote: Game 4 was my first game ever against GSC. Actually turned out to be a really odd one. It was end to end deployment and I was able to screen off my knights completely. The result was that when my opponent’s army had to all deploy at the beginning of turn 3, he couldn’t put his scary stuff anywhere near my knights. I was quite happy to not be in melee with a unit of 10 Aberrants with big hammers. Lots of shooting followed and I won 36:16.
What method did you use to screen out the GSC? I haven't played them yet, but it looks like it would be a nightmare to screen them with 17 guys when they can pop in at 3'.
I had models spread all over. He actually could have deployed a unit 3" away, with the Lying in Wait strat, but when you do that you can't charge that turn with that unit.
I think he could have used that on his unit of 17 guys with hand flamers, then used another 3CPs to make them fire straight away, roasting my screens. That would have allowed him to deploy his aberrants within 9" of one of my knights. I'm not sure why he didn't at least try that - my guess is he was just feeling too ill to play on. The guy really looked like death - I had to help him stand up when we went to give in our results.
Mandragola wrote: Game 4 was my first game ever against GSC. Actually turned out to be a really odd one. It was end to end deployment and I was able to screen off my knights completely. The result was that when my opponent’s army had to all deploy at the beginning of turn 3, he couldn’t put his scary stuff anywhere near my knights. I was quite happy to not be in melee with a unit of 10 Aberrants with big hammers. Lots of shooting followed and I won 36:16.
What method did you use to screen out the GSC? I haven't played them yet, but it looks like it would be a nightmare to screen them with 17 guys when they can pop in at 3'.
I had models spread all over. He actually could have deployed a unit 3" away, with the Lying in Wait strat, but when you do that you can't charge that turn with that unit.
I think he could have used that on his unit of 17 guys with hand flamers, then used another 3CPs to make them fire straight away, roasting my screens. That would have allowed him to deploy his aberrants within 9" of one of my knights. I'm not sure why he didn't at least try that - my guess is he was just feeling too ill to play on. The guy really looked like death - I had to help him stand up when we went to give in our results.
Yea.. it sounds like he was just ill.
Generally GSC vs Knights is a hard loss for the Knights, unless the Knights player gets lucky. The flamer acolytes can generally clear the way for the Abberants to get in and kill everything.
I beat a guy doing this once, but only because I took Sanctuary and Sainted Ion Armor on 2 of my Knights that screened for the other, he rolled poorly and I rolled hot on my saves, and even then I ended up nearly losing both Knights in a single assault phase.
Ideasweasel wrote: I’m not giving up on knights yet. My list might change a bit though
The question is to what.
@horst. How goes the swap over to guard. Are you still tinkering with Krast?
I'm still teetering on the edge of which army to bring to events. I think triple crusader / 2 tank commander is still very powerful, but on the other hand, when it gets a bad matchup it loses HARD. When it gets a good matchup it wins really easily though. Guard will always have options and will never die super easily, but overall every game will be harder.
I feel like if I play Knights, I'll be guaranteed a good finish but probably not win overall, and if I play Guard I have a shot at winning overall but am more likely to place worse. :-/
Ouch. A tricky choice then. Have you tried some test games with Taranis to see how it does against the current crop of opponents? It’s been strength to strength for me
So... thinking more about it what marines mean for the new meta.
I'd expect triple executioner iron hands to become very popular... and I think a Knight Castellan would actually handle them very well. You could definitely run a list with a tank commander / company commander + 30 guardsmen, alongside a Castellan and 2 Crusaders. It would be similar to my triple crusader 2 tank commander list, but we'd effectively be swapping a tank commander and a Crusader to upgrade to a Castellan. I'd be effectively losing 4 wounds on my armor (Well OK, 8 wounds, since I'm swapping a 36 wounds worth of T8 for 28, but all of that is with a 4++ so it's not THAT crazy), but a Castellan could punch through the executioners with ease compared to Tank Commanders or Crusaders.
I could use Krast, give the Castellan Wrath of Mars, and give one of the Crusaders Headsman's Mark. This would mean I'd have 2 good anti-tank units. Would need to take a Punisher as my tank commander for anit-infantry... but hell, it could work. Worth trying at least I think.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, triple executioners aren't able to blow a Castellan away in a single salvo... so it will get to shoot at least once. Getting first t urn would be critical so I can get off at least 2 salvos, but that's nothing new.
My local area will be marine heavy. I’ve been wondering how my list will need to change.
I made a solo raven Castellan, 2 punisher list that I was fiddling with. I’m also wondering the value of a single Gallant. If marines are going to start balling up into unkillable Death Stars, maybe throwing a melee monster in to smash it like a bowling ball into skittles is the answer
I think that going super-heavy into anti-tank might be an over-reaction. Honestly I'd look at staying as Raven with a Castelan+2 Crusaders list. You get the strategim that makes the big guy shine, and you can advance your Crusaders while still shooting as normal. This lets you get into melee with them much quicker, which is something that Iron Hands will not like as much as other marines.
I run a solo gallant in my lists and it’s great. Give it the 2+ save relic and Landstrider and it will do some work. Usually it doesn’t do that much damage but it will attract a ton of fire that would be blowing all your other stuff up for a relatively cheap cost.
Agreed, i think castellans are going to make a come back. We are going to need to out range sm and be able to crack into their heavier units while also being able to shoot without los and clear screens for gsc/orks. I am thinking something like this:
I really want to work in an assassin and a manticore, but hard to work them in and have enough screen. Here is to hoping the faq drops the 100 point nerf to the castellan
Anyone given the moiraxes a try. I could see some use for the lightning locks in particular, pair them up with a helm dominatus using knight and you should be getting a whole bunch of hits and some pretty good screen cleaning potential.
Dantioch wrote: Anyone given the moiraxes a try. I could see some use for the lightning locks in particular, pair them up with a helm dominatus using knight and you should be getting a whole bunch of hits and some pretty good screen cleaning potential.
They might make more sence in 30k, as unfortunately in 40k knights have been reduced to being a bolt on faction and almost everything that else can do the chaff clearing potential more efficently.
I won a tournament yesterday, so I put my winnings towards a new Knight... got a Castellan. Trying to fit it into my list, and here's what I'm thinking, for a Knights/Guard list, featuring a Castellan!
The plan is going to be to make the Castellan my Warlord. He'll get First Knight and Cawl's Wrath. My Crusader will get a CP spent on him, and get the Headsman's Mark. The Warden will depend greatly on who I'm fighting... if I'm fighting Iron Hands or something where I need him to be in close combat, he's getting Landstrider. If I'm fighting anything else, I'll probably give him the Blessed by the Sacristans trait, to make his Avenger cannon deal mortals on a 6 to wound.
The Vostroyan Guard is interesting... Vostroyan punishers have a 30" range instead of a 24" range, and for 1 CP I can boost it to hit on 2+ instead of 3+, so he can be hyper-accurate in laying down anti-infantry fire. I also have an Astropath in there.. hopefully he can help deny some psychic powers, and he will get Psychic Maelstrom to deal some targetted mortal wounds, something this list otherwise kind of lacks.
Congrats on your tourney win. What list did you run?
Yay for Castellan, I hope you have success running him.
I’m a big fan of Vostroyan punishers. I’ve actually changed my list to have just one (down from two) but I haven’t had a chance to test it.
Astropath is interesting, will he get to deny much? I’m not sure what else you could field though. Cutting a squad of guard and adding 6 mortar bases doesn’t seem like a better trade.
Keep us posted on how it performs. I’d suspect Tau is still a bad day, but what can you do.
It was a mono-codex tournament, run with Highlander requirements... so only one of any unit. I ran a Crusader, Paladin, Errant, Warden, and Helverin at 2000 points.
The Astropath is there because I had some extra points, but denying some closer-range powers is pretty useful. Things like the "no overwatch" psychic power, or the mind control powers, that GSC have, for example. Maelstrom is also a decent power that generally does 2-3 mortal wounds to a target when it goes off, though getting it off is like a 50/50 prospect. He's also got the "no cover" ability, which could potentially be useful if I end up getting close to a target with him, to deny cover to things within 18" of him for my punisher to shoot at.
He's got a good bit of things he can do for only 26 points, so it seems like a good enough deal.
Bad matchups I'd expect would be suit Tau, most GSC, Eldar, and Iron Hands. I'd expect to do decently well against Chaos, non-IH marines, nids, some GSC variants, mech tau, triple Crusader lists, most Imperium lists.
Yeah, stopping mind control can be massive. Although having a single model in base contact can help. That way when your unit is mind controlled it can’t shoot as it’s in combat. This is something I wish I would of thought of in a game versus a friends gsc. I used to run Castellan and 2 crusaders and he used the Castellan and nuked my crusaders. Killed one outright and crippled another to next to no wounds.
It was brutal. Game ended there with me laughing haha
I had a tournament tester game today against an friend who plays a mech flying eldar list
My Castellan’s first run out in months and it performed admirably.
I played a Taranis list with a Gallant, Crusader, Castellan supported by a single vostroyan punisher +Guard Bat + Graia Bat
I’ve got two lists and I just can’t decide between them. I think my plan for Iron hands is to roll for first turn and on going second just shake hands and go watch some other games
Does anyone have a pure 1500 pts knight list, im trying to build something small first to get it on the board and then go from there.
I can add a loyal 32 because have the models painted if needed but would prefer pure knights as its more for casual games.
Hey,
this should probably go to rules section but I throw it here:
How you interpret the following.
When a Moirax armiger in house Vulker shoots with it's lightning clocks and uses saturation bombardment.
How many additional hits I get on an unmodified roll of 6 to hit?
Rules involved:
Lightning locks: 36", Heavy 6, S 6, AP -2, D1: An unmodified hit roll of 6 for an attack made using this weapon scores 2 additional hits on the target.
Stratagem (1CP): Saturation bombardment: Use this stratagem in your shooting phase before choosing a HOUSE VULKER model from your army to shoot with. Until the end of the phase, each unmodified hit roll of 6 made for that model's shooting attacks scores 2 hits instead of 1.
Far as ive heard its just those 3 changes. But its easy to overlook things when they just give you the points and not the comparison points.
Armigers dropping 15pts makes me very happy. Annoyed me that the new FW one was both cheaper AND superior in every single way, especially when armigers were kinda meh anyway (not great, not bad)
Now that gallants went up 20 points, just running a single cheap knight in an aux detachment seems better served with Canis Rex. Played a couple games with him and he seems...not amazing, but pretty good? Hitting on 2’s helps his mediocre gun, his melee is great, his morale aura is useless but I guess could be decent with a guard blob army, and he’s almost impossible to get first strike on. Not being able to give him the 2+ armor relic hurts but overall saves CP, gonna probably keep running him.
Drdotts wrote: So does anyone else think it’s crazy that a preceptor is 372 now? Because I do
Went 3-2 with pure knights this weekend at Goldensprue, GT of about 50 people. Ran 2 preceptors, 2 helverins, 1 Warden, 1 Crusader, all Taranis, all with Ironstorm pods. Preceptors performed very well, they seem like an obvious replacement for gallants now that gallants were nerfed.
Most the year I’ve been playing either a 4 knight list with rusty 17 or 3 knight list with rusty 17 and a smash captain battalion and had decent results. But I haven’t done so hot since the drop of the marine meta. Does anyone have any suggestions for a tech slot against marines or strategies to fight them while remaining primarily Knight based
I was thinking of running one of my knights in a full lance as a freeblade. I wanted to make sure if I was missing anything with also being able to use the exalted court and armory stratagems to give it a warlord trait and relic as well as the freeblade rules. I know it looses household, but what else?
