So assuming the FW Knights don't change in points, are they still worth considering with access to household traditions, WO traits, relics, and stratagems? At 555 pts the Atrapos is pretty pricey but it does offer a lot in the way of anti-Titantic and anti-vehicle while being pretty good at melee and ranged and durability.
TERRYN lancer with landstrider that makes a first turn charge 100% of the time. 14" move + 3d6+2 drop lowest advance + 3d6+2 drop lowest charge is something like a 34" threat range.
I get how the atropos is good because it has that 4++ base. But damn does it cost some points for having the shooting it does. The Acheron's shooting seems more relevant and the Lancer has that 100% first turn charge utility.
TERRYN lancer with landstrider that makes a first turn charge 100% of the time. 14" move + 3d6+2 drop lowest advance + 3d6+2 drop lowest charge is something like a 34" threat range.
I get how the atropos is good because it has that 4++ base. But damn does it cost some points for having the shooting it does. The Acheron's shooting seems more relevant and the Lancer has that 100% first turn charge utility.
The Atrapos has a 4++ against shooting and a 5++ in melee, so it's like it has Ion Bulwark and Sanctuary already baked into it which frees up a WL trait and relic. The Lancer is only more durable in melee but I think the Atrapos is actually more dangerous in melee with rerolling failed hits and wounds against monsters, vehicles, and buildings, which I think comes out ahead of the Lancer. It's also far more deadly in ranged. I'd personally run a Raven Atrapos with Landstrider and Mark of the Omnissiah so it has a good shot at a turn 1 charge, able to get in range and shoot with everything, and then charge with Full Tilt. All the while recovering at least 1 wound every turn with a potential to recover 4 wounds a turn if you roll well with Blessed Autosimulacra and Mark of the Omnissiah together.
Hmm yeah ... hmm ... well ... if the atropos isn't nerfed yeah I see why my buddy kept saying it was the best knight. I kind of hope that it doesn't stay the best knight because i don't feel like shelling out $300 to run knights. I like that GW made plastic kits broadly superior to resin in tournament play. If it stays better ... yeah ... guess I will need one at some point.
Would 750 be an acceptable price price for the porphyrion? Still a large chunk of points, but more reasonable as it frees up a bit of points for other things.
I feel that a Valiant isn't just about the confrag cannon, it has all its other guns as well. Its not a dedicated horde killer. Its more of a generalist. If you are looking to compare it to something that has a dedicated role, then the Valiant would be too expensive. But if you are taking a list against all comers, then a Valiant is good because it can handle a much bigger variety of foes.
That harpoon is godly against vehicles. Are there lists with no such vehicles? of course there are. But against lists that do have Rhinos, predators, etc, vehicles with no invul save, then that harpoon would one shot them.
Confrag cannon is great against a large variety of foes, especially those with the fly keyword. Not to mention the defensive capabilities of that cannon. It creates a dead zone 18 inches around the Valiant because of its threat range. That's a huge bubble.
We have to stop thinking the only other lists we are fighting are IK lists. There are tons of other sorts of lists. The Valiant is a swiss knife. What if you meet a list with three storm ravens? The Valiant would be more useful than a crusader then.
What if you meet a harlequin list? Same thing, the Valiant would be really scary to a harlequin list, while it might not be quite as scared of a crusader.
If I wanted to tailor an IK list to another IK list, just bring all Gallants or a mix of just gallants and Castellans. Don't need to bother with avenger cannons or valiants at all since a str 6 or str 7 gun is suboptimal against an army of T8 models.
Not everyone you play is going to understand how deadly that confrag cannon is. I am sure there will be some players who would charge it with something like a squad of berserks or a squad of wulfen and would then blink as that confrag cannon erased the entire squad from the overwatch. And if they are so afraid of it (because of said experience), then you have your moving 18 inch threat bubble around the Valiant.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I feel that a Valiant isn't just about the confrag cannon, it has all its other guns as well. Its not a dedicated horde killer. Its more of a generalist. If you are looking to compare it to something that has a dedicated role, then the Valiant would be too expensive. But if you are taking a list against all comers, then a Valiant is good because it can handle a much bigger variety of foes.
That harpoon is godly against vehicles. Are there lists with no such vehicles? of course there are. But against lists that do have Rhinos, predators, etc, vehicles with no invul save, then that harpoon would one shot them.
Volcano lance is even godlier against vehicles.
Not everyone you play is going to understand how deadly that confrag cannon is. I am sure there will be some players who would charge it with something like a squad of berserks or a squad of wulfen and would then blink as that confrag cannon erased the entire squad from the overwatch. And if they are so afraid of it (because of said experience), then you have your moving 18 inch threat bubble around the Valiant.
Ummm I don't play against idiots and frankly I don't feel making plans on the assumption I face one is smart idea. If unit requires opponent to play stupidly to be good it's not good thing.
Volcano lance is better against vehicles, and other titans for that matter too. But the confrag cannon is then better against hordes, which the castellan isn't. It just reinforces my point, A Valiant is a swiss knight, it is not a dedicated titan killer like the Castellan.
Are you designing your army as a take all comers or are you designing it with the idea that you will not meet hordes, or flyers, etc etc.
I will take tools that work against. Valiant isn't even that good against hordes due to price. And it's not like big knight is only thing that I have. Castellan can destroy big things that I will also face. Then others can deal with hordes more effectively than valiant could. If I take valiant instead I deal with big things AND hordes less effectively.
Valiant can easily even end turn 1 doing nothing except shoot with siege breaker cannons. Woo!
Eldenfirefly wrote: I feel that a Valiant isn't just about the confrag cannon, it has all its other guns as well. Its not a dedicated horde killer. Its more of a generalist. If you are looking to compare it to something that has a dedicated role, then the Valiant would be too expensive. But if you are taking a list against all comers, then a Valiant is good because it can handle a much bigger variety of foes.
That harpoon is godly against vehicles. Are there lists with no such vehicles? of course there are. But against lists that do have Rhinos, predators, etc, vehicles with no invul save, then that harpoon would one shot them.
Confrag cannon is great against a large variety of foes, especially those with the fly keyword. Not to mention the defensive capabilities of that cannon. It creates a dead zone 18 inches around the Valiant because of its threat range. That's a huge bubble.
We have to stop thinking the only other lists we are fighting are IK lists. There are tons of other sorts of lists. The Valiant is a swiss knife. What if you meet a list with three storm ravens? The Valiant would be more useful than a crusader then.
What if you meet a harlequin list? Same thing, the Valiant would be really scary to a harlequin list, while it might not be quite as scared of a crusader.
If I wanted to tailor an IK list to another IK list, just bring all Gallants or a mix of just gallants and Castellans. Don't need to bother with avenger cannons or valiants at all since a str 6 or str 7 gun is suboptimal against an army of T8 models.
Not everyone you play is going to understand how deadly that confrag cannon is. I am sure there will be some players who would charge it with something like a squad of berserks or a squad of wulfen and would then blink as that confrag cannon erased the entire squad from the overwatch. And if they are so afraid of it (because of said experience), then you have your moving 18 inch threat bubble around the Valiant.
Problem is most armies that want to charge you have some sort of sacrificial unit to charge in first if they absolutely have to take the valiant down.
I'm actually curious, what's the odds of something like a rhino surviving the overwatch of a valiant? Between the flamer, 4 meltas, the harpoon, and 2 shoulder cannons, I wouldn't be surprised to see a valiant drop even a tank on overwatch.
That said, with the amount of things that can ignore overwatch now just assuming you'll get it is to plan for failure. Raven guard and blood Angels both have ways to outright shut it down and I'm sure more will appear over time. Other armies will just sacrifice a vehicle or do something like charge it with a ton of Boyz to make sure their actual combat unit gets in unscathed.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Problem is most armies that want to charge you have some sort of sacrificial unit to charge in first if they absolutely have to take the valiant down.
I'm actually curious, what's the odds of something like a rhino surviving the overwatch of a valiant? Between the flamer, 4 meltas, the harpoon, and 2 shoulder cannons, I wouldn't be surprised to see a valiant drop even a tank on overwatch.
That said, with the amount of things that can ignore overwatch now just assuming you'll get it is to plan for failure. Raven guard and blood Angels both have ways to outright shut it down and I'm sure more will appear over time. Other armies will just sacrifice a vehicle or do something like charge it with a ton of Boyz to make sure their actual combat unit gets in unscathed.
BA, raven guard, eldar. I wouldn't be surprised if tyranids had something as well. If not just charge with something like 20 hormagaunts to soak up firepower before real meat comes in.
Yeah. Wave serpent has about 85-90% chance more or less to charge safely. Less if knight player uses to reroll 1 dice needing 6+. If the harpoon hits and wounds wave serpent is dead but that's 16% chance to hit(30% with reroll).
How common bansheesh are? Faced them yesterday and they made mincemeat out of my IG with their charge out of bazillion inchesh and no overwatch. That would also prevent valiant from shooting making safe to charge with big hitters.
Even most tanks will actually be in serious danger charging a valiant unless there’s a way to avoid the overwatch. If it’s got the relic flamer it does 10.5 wounds to a t7 3+ save vehicle with that alone. Then it’s got 5 shots with meltas and the harpoon. If one of those comes up a 6 things are pretty bad.
The better way to tie it up is with a horde unit. Nurgle can cause massive problems if they can have plaguebearers charge and then surround it with non-infantry stuff like drones. To be fair that’s probably the worst case scenario and won’t always come up.
Yeah I would either charge with enough wounds it can't kill all or something that denies overwatch. Wave serpent is unique in that it will likely survive if harpoon doesn't hit. flamer going to D1 and 6+++ should keep it alive enough. As long as that 9+d3 causing harpoon doesn't hit...
My main complaint with the Valiant and Gallant isn't that they don't do enough damage. It's that they force you into advancing towards the enemy, which isn't always the best idea.
It's pretty easy to get a first turn charge off with a Gallant, if you build your army around it and blow at least 2 CPs on the full tilt stratagem. But it's an awful lot less likely that it'll get its points back with that charge, and it's just made itself a really easy and obvious target.
You could argue that this forces your opponent's hand. They now have to kill the Gallant. That's true up to a point, but the problem is that you've also gifted them a chance to bring all of their most powerful weapons to bear on a single model, virtually guaranteeing that it dies.
The Valiant doesn't have to go quite as nuts as the Gallant, but ultimately both you and your opponent know that it's got to get within 12" of something valuable if it's going to get close to its points back.
This doesn't apply at all to other knights. Even something like an Errant can spend a turn or two hanging back and do real work with its thermal cannon. It obviously won't do as much damage as if it went storming forward, but sometimes that's ok if your opponent's damage is reduced by more than your own.
Not neccessary that easy except for Terryn. 12"+5.5"+9"=26.5". Enemy parks over 28" and you already need to roll higher than average. Starting over 30" isn't that hard especially since enemy likely gets to deploy most of his stuff(and all front) after gallant has done.
Unless you have 2d6 pick highest advance or 3d6 pick 2 highest for charges AND land strider it's far from auto charge. Especially against anything that's beefier than 10 IG troopers.
Mandragola wrote: You could argue that this forces your opponent's hand. They now have to kill the Gallant. That's true up to a point, but the problem is that you've also gifted them a chance to bring all of their most powerful weapons to bear on a single model, virtually guaranteeing that it dies.
This is called a "distraction carnifex", and part of why the Gallant is the cheapest Knight.
Your opponent must either focus-fire on gallant or or allow it to run rampant in his lines. In the meantime all your other knights are lighting up his units like the 4th of July.
Yes, the Gallant is a very expensive distractionfex, at generally near a quarter or a third of your knight models; but most players would gladly allow the opponent to fully degrade or destroy a single 454 point model than degrade 2 more expensive knights.
Mandragola wrote: You could argue that this forces your opponent's hand. They now have to kill the Gallant. That's true up to a point, but the problem is that you've also gifted them a chance to bring all of their most powerful weapons to bear on a single model, virtually guaranteeing that it dies.
This is called a "distraction carnifex", and part of why the Gallant is the cheapest Knight.
Your opponent must either focus-fire on gallant or or allow it to run rampant in his lines. In the meantime all your other knights are lighting up his units like the 4th of July.
Yes, the Gallant is a very expensive distractionfex, at generally near a quarter or a third of your knight models; but most players would gladly allow the opponent to fully degrade or destroy a single 454 point model than degrade 2 more expensive knights.
I understand the concept. I just don't think it's a particularly good idea with knights. The purpose of a distraction carnifex is to take the focus away from more valuable targets, but a Gallant isn't sufficiently less valuable than other knights to make it worthwhile. Meanwhile, it's exposing itself to very significantly more incoming damage, without doing very much harm of its own.
It doesn't actually matter where your distraction unit is, anyway. It doesn't need to be right in your opponent's face - what it has to do is present a threat that they can't ignore, forcing them to get rid of it. A Gallant right on their doorstep certainly does that, but arguably so does a Castellan with Cawl's Wrath pretty much anywhere.
Overall your objective must be for enemy units to die faster than your own do. I don't think a Gallant helps with this. It dies quickly, probably without killing very much, eating CPs.
The point with the Gallant is to combine the 2: A Gallant and A Crusader cost as much as a Warden and a paladin/errant(depending on crusader's gun)
Gallant Charging into the lines while the crusader attacks scarier enemy units. Opponent has to choose which threat to deal with.
Taking that Cawl's Wrath Castellan makes the choice even more difficult for the opponent, since that is even scarier than the crusader.
But my point was that you are not just wastefully throwing away your gallant while doing nothing with the rest of your army; you are effectively sacrificing the Gallant to give them a free turn.
I should also through into the mix the thought that with armigers warglaives you can turn a gallant from distraction carnifex into a speartip. Your shoot elements still shoot but instead of just one CC threat it can overload a front as just killing the gallant won't relive the pressure.
Kommissar Kel wrote: The point with the Gallant is to combine the 2: A Gallant and A Crusader cost as much as a Warden and a paladin/errant(depending on crusader's gun)
Gallant Charging into the lines while the crusader attacks scarier enemy units. Opponent has to choose which threat to deal with.
Taking that Cawl's Wrath Castellan makes the choice even more difficult for the opponent, since that is even scarier than the crusader.
But my point was that you are not just wastefully throwing away your gallant while doing nothing with the rest of your army; you are effectively sacrificing the Gallant to give them a free turn.
But other knight than gallant can be even better distraction carnifex by actually threatening to kill more than chaff enemy would feed gallant with. Rathes than threat and suicide knight that you make easier to destroy you would have 2 threats which both are tougher than gallant
Finally getting home after being away from home working for a while. Has anyone run a Styrix yet? Pre codex I ran my errant as one with decent success. I'm torn between Griffith and Raven as far as house traits go, and both have their merits with the Styrix. Griffith for making the exploding shots on the volkite proc more, and Raven for giving it the omnissiah mark, what with regenerating 2-5 wounds per turn on its own.
I like the model, and I plan on getting one here soon anyway, along with a cerastus of some sort. Just curious if anyone has used one yet, and how well it's performed for them.
Kommissar Kel wrote: The point with the Gallant is to combine the 2: A Gallant and A Crusader cost as much as a Warden and a paladin/errant(depending on crusader's gun)
Gallant Charging into the lines while the crusader attacks scarier enemy units. Opponent has to choose which threat to deal with.
Taking that Cawl's Wrath Castellan makes the choice even more difficult for the opponent, since that is even scarier than the crusader.
But my point was that you are not just wastefully throwing away your gallant while doing nothing with the rest of your army; you are effectively sacrificing the Gallant to give them a free turn.
But other knight than gallant can be even better distraction carnifex by actually threatening to kill more than chaff enemy would feed gallant with. Rathes than threat and suicide knight that you make easier to destroy you would have 2 threats which both are tougher than gallant
That is an issue with a Knight Main: all your knights are threats so the biggest threat the opponent sees is the first one he is going for.
As for the opponent feeding the Gallant Chaff; knights don't fall back, they fall foreward(assuming he didn't wipe out the chaff in the opponent's fight phase) and can then freely charge a better target.
The first part of the game, and the tactics we are discussing here, is deployment; even forcing the opponent's meltas into the back lines or tactical reserves is a good use of the Gallant's points, the actually killing and suicidal protection(remember as well that a knight exploding in the middle of your lines is also not something you want happening; that is why we have a Strat for making it happen) just returns final points.
StarHunter25 wrote: Finally getting home after being away from home working for a while. Has anyone run a Styrix yet? Pre codex I ran my errant as one with decent success. I'm torn between Griffith and Raven as far as house traits go, and both have their merits with the Styrix. Griffith for making the exploding shots on the volkite proc more, and Raven for giving it the omnissiah mark, what with regenerating 2-5 wounds per turn on its own.
I like the model, and I plan on getting one here soon anyway, along with a cerastus of some sort. Just curious if anyone has used one yet, and how well it's performed for them.
Untill they are errataed adding a FW knight breaks the Lance rule, so no house hold traditions for any knights.
LunarSol wrote: Does it break it or just not count towards it?
Knight Lances
Select one model in each Imperial Knights super-heavy detachment.
Household Traditions
All units in an Imperial Knights super-heavy detachment.
If you don't have that keyword you can't be part of a that keyword detachment so it breaks both. Pg 106
Bonus points no strategums either as you need an Imperial Knights detachment for those and a bunch of them require Imperial Knights keyword to be played. Pg 108
buddha wrote: I should also through into the mix the thought that with armigers warglaives you can turn a gallant from distraction carnifex into a speartip. Your shoot elements still shoot but instead of just one CC threat it can overload a front as just killing the gallant won't relive the pressure.
Not a bad idea, particularly if the Gallant has Landstrider to help the Warglaives make their charges.
I want to play a semi-competitive agressive list that isn't afraid to get into melee but can't decide what to take. I don't really like the Valiant model but am not against adding it. I have 2 magnetised Knights already and I quite like both the Armigers (competitively I think the Helverin's are better but thematically I like the Warglaives).
Right now I'm toying with house Raven for the advance and shoot but I'm not sure if that's best for a melee focused knight army? Also, while I know I want one Gallant, I'd quite like a couple of Crusaders in there to support so I feel Raven is best and the stratagem is nice on one too. I keep trying to fit 4 Knights into a list then changing my mind and dropping one for some Helverins. I'm just not sure. For the price of 2 Helverins we can bring a Gallant that is so much more dangerous in melee...
What is the best bet? 3 tooled up Crusaders and a Gallant? Or maybe a Crusader, 2 Wardens/Errants and a Gallant?
I just can't make my mind up as all the options seem appealing.
I managed to get my Valiant and Renegade box built and painted enough to put on the table for a game on Tuesday night for science. pure Knights vs TAC Tau
I ran:
Hawshroud
Valliant, Traitor's Pyre, Ion Bulwark <warlord>
Crusader, tc, stormspear, Endless Fury
Crusader, tc, stormspear, Blessed by the sacristans (on the Avenger)
Gallant, Twin Icarus
vs
Tau
2 Fusion coldstars
Ethereal
30 strike
full squad of path finders
2 squads of stealthsuits
3 marksmen
1 unit of spare sheild drones
burst tide
stormsurge.
Lots of multi level terrain. He placed the first objective, putting his 3 on terrain as high as possible. I placed mine on the ground to block as much terrain as possible. Dawn of war deployment, I picked the side i was standing at out of lazyness and the terrain and objectives were pretty even, all low objectives were to my left and all the high objectives were to my right.
His first 4 drops were DS shield drones and the 3 marksmen.
I dropped my gallant first, front and center, a crusader flanking on each side and the valiant directly behind the gallant.
he deployed the rest of his stuff opposite and bubble wrapped the surge with the stealths in the mid field to grab objectives.
He won the roll off and i failed to seize.
His first turn, not much movement, shooting took the gallant down to 3 wounds.
My first turn moved the gallant to the side to let the valiant out and moved forward. Shooting took down a bunch of drones, the stormsurge and pathfinders. Valliant put the harpoon and meltas into a unit of stealths due to them being the only thing in range.
His turn 2 finished off the gallant and took the valiant down to 7 wounds.
My turn 2 continued the move up and the combination of shooting and tap dancing cored out most of the rest of his army leaving only a marksman, burst tide, commanders and some drones. The harpoon went into the riptide but passed to a drone who made it's invul.
Turn 3 he finished off the valiant, i used noble sacrifice and took 2 mortal wounds off the riptide.
The rest was just clean up the remaining few units. Game ended at the bottom of 4 with tau being tabled.
Out of my 6 CP i spent 1 on heirlooms, 1 on court, 1 on rotate, 1 on rerolling the number of shots on a thermal cannon and 2 on sacrifice.
MVPs Were:
The 4++ on the valiant, needless to say, don't want it blowing up before it gets into the middle of the opponents army.
Endless Fury and sacrisants on the gattling cannon, They felt comparable to each other.in terms of increased potential of troop killing, but i'd say the trait edged out the relic vs invuls.
Traitor's pyre was ok, the reroll to wound helped but most of what i was shooting with it was wounding on 2s and 3s anyway, so not a huge impact, although i expect it to have a larger impact on t7 or t8 targets.
Biggest drawback was the lack of CPs i would have very much liked to have had more CPs to spend and what i had was rationed for rotate ions and sacrifice. The reroll for TC shots was questionable but i had to make sure the stormsurge went down and ended up being worth it,
I'm happy the way things went, but other than that and what I've already said, i didn't have much of a take away other than knight lists set a new minimum threshold for the amount of anti tank that's needed.
I've got a game lined up for next week Vs a more tailored DG/Nurgle list so i'll see how that goes. I'm not sure if i want to change my list at all. Currently i think I'll leave it as is, as it's kinda hard to form an opinion after only 1 game.
First, IK versus Space Wolves
My list
Errant, Paladin, Warden, Valiant, Helverin
House Raven with Sanctuary Relic on Warlord (cunning for +1 cp)
His list
2 Ven Dreads (3+ invul), Bjorn, Runepriest, Techmarine, 2 squads of 5 Wulfen, 3 squads of 5 grey hunters, 1 space wolf flyer (I forget the name), and 1 allied Gallant
Long table edge deployment. Cloak and Shadows. I advanced, poured everything into wiping out 1 grey hunter squad and putting wounds on the dreads. Did very little.
Bjorn got in with the dreads and wrecked the Valiant.
From there on it was me trying to put wounds on those dreads and those dreads running in and knocking me out, with the flyer putting some good hurt on. When the Wulfen came in, they just added fuel to the fire.
I was tabled by turn 4! 3+ invul is sooooo good!
---
Second game vs. Death Guard. I'd learned a lot in the previous game and my opponent helped me build a new list.
My list:
Valiant, Crusader, Gallant, 2 Helverins, 1 Warglaive
House Hawkshroud, Traitor's Pyre, Paragon Fist, +1 CP Warlord trait
His list:
Mortarion, Rotigus, GUO, 2 units of Plaguebearers, 3 squads of 5 Plague Marines (some with melta, some with grenade launchers), Typhus, Plaguecaster, some Nurglings
He hides most of his stuff in or behind buildings. I get first turn and get closer with most of my stuff. Kick the Nurglings aside and wipe out two squads of plague marines.
His turn he moves up and does very little.
I put some hurt on the GUO.
He charges with the GUO into my Gallant. It does some damage but I merc the GUO. His other big stuff moves up.
I bring Rotigus down to 1 wound through weight of fire.
He charges Mortarion into my Crusader. Valiant uses Hawkshroud Stratagem to overwatch as well and heroic interventions. Crusader is lost to Mortarion. Typhus charges Gallant. Gallant mercs Typhus with fist.
Next turn, Valiant steps back and deletes Mortarion. At this point he's down to some plaguebearers and a weakened Rotigus.
Game conceded to IK.
Definitely learned a lot. The combination of Gallant and Crusader is, I think, a lot better than trying to take, say, a Paladin and Warden. You get a lot more firepower.
Also, Valiant works SO INCREDIBLY WELL with Hawkshroud and the Traitor's Pyre. That conflag cannon is what took Mortarion down, just piling on sooooo many wounds. I'd take it every time I take IK!
The harpoon is just meh. I'm awful with one-shot weapons. Always miss with them for some reason. Thankfully, the flamer and all the other weapons makes it worth it.
If your going to run the harpoon then you may want to consider house Vulker. I mean you're probably shooting at the closest unit anyway due to its short range and that way you at least get a free reroll on a miss.
As for the opponent feeding the Gallant Chaff; knights don't fall back, they fall foreward(assuming he didn't wipe out the chaff in the opponent's fight phase) and can then freely charge a better target.
Assuming he doesn't simply surround the knight with chaff. The base is so big doesn't need to be that tight. Then you are either forced to charge the chaff or nothing. Just because enemy is close with chaff doesn't mean he HAS to charge you giving you free stomps and chance to fall back.
drbored wrote: Had two games today that were quite good.
First, IK versus Space Wolves
My list
Errant, Paladin, Warden, Valiant, Helverin
House Raven with Sanctuary Relic on Warlord (cunning for +1 cp)
His list
2 Ven Dreads (3+ invul), Bjorn, Runepriest, Techmarine, 2 squads of 5 Wulfen, 3 squads of 5 grey hunters, 1 space wolf flyer (I forget the name), and 1 allied Gallant
Long table edge deployment. Cloak and Shadows. I advanced, poured everything into wiping out 1 grey hunter squad and putting wounds on the dreads. Did very little.
Bjorn got in with the dreads and wrecked the Valiant.
From there on it was me trying to put wounds on those dreads and those dreads running in and knocking me out, with the flyer putting some good hurt on. When the Wulfen came in, they just added fuel to the fire.
I was tabled by turn 4! 3+ invul is sooooo good!
---
Second game vs. Death Guard. I'd learned a lot in the previous game and my opponent helped me build a new list.
My list:
Valiant, Crusader, Gallant, 2 Helverins, 1 Warglaive
House Hawkshroud, Traitor's Pyre, Paragon Fist, +1 CP Warlord trait
His list:
Mortarion, Rotigus, GUO, 2 units of Plaguebearers, 3 squads of 5 Plague Marines (some with melta, some with grenade launchers), Typhus, Plaguecaster, some Nurglings
He hides most of his stuff in or behind buildings. I get first turn and get closer with most of my stuff. Kick the Nurglings aside and wipe out two squads of plague marines.
His turn he moves up and does very little.
I put some hurt on the GUO.
He charges with the GUO into my Gallant. It does some damage but I merc the GUO. His other big stuff moves up.
I bring Rotigus down to 1 wound through weight of fire.
He charges Mortarion into my Crusader. Valiant uses Hawkshroud Stratagem to overwatch as well and heroic interventions. Crusader is lost to Mortarion. Typhus charges Gallant. Gallant mercs Typhus with fist.
Next turn, Valiant steps back and deletes Mortarion. At this point he's down to some plaguebearers and a weakened Rotigus.
Game conceded to IK.
Definitely learned a lot. The combination of Gallant and Crusader is, I think, a lot better than trying to take, say, a Paladin and Warden. You get a lot more firepower.
Also, Valiant works SO INCREDIBLY WELL with Hawkshroud and the Traitor's Pyre. That conflag cannon is what took Mortarion down, just piling on sooooo many wounds. I'd take it every time I take IK!
The harpoon is just meh. I'm awful with one-shot weapons. Always miss with them for some reason. Thankfully, the flamer and all the other weapons makes it worth it.
I am glad you are having good experiences with the Valiant! I am still a supporter of Valiant. Think its a great knight to have in an IK army.
Considering that the codex actually says straight up on a page that Armigers contribute to a Knight Lance even though they can't according to the rules, and that people have been asking for the FW Knights to also be usable, do we think both of these things will be addressed in an FAQ?
I think the Armiger one will be addressed, but I'm conflicted about the FW Knights. I own two of them, so I want more than anything to be able to use them correctly in 40k as well, but have GW ever mentioned anything about FW products in their FAQs? I'm worried that we will have to wait for a FWFAQ regarding their Knights, and who knows if or when that will ever happen..
Given the mess FW currently seem to be in, I wouldn't hold my breath for anything from them for quite a while.
I do really want updated rules for my FW Knights though :(
alleus wrote: Considering that the codex actually says straight up on a page that Armigers contribute to a Knight Lance even though they can't according to the rules, and that people have been asking for the FW Knights to also be usable, do we think both of these things will be addressed in an FAQ?
I think the Armiger one will be addressed, but I'm conflicted about the FW Knights. I own two of them, so I want more than anything to be able to use them correctly in 40k as well, but have GW ever mentioned anything about FW products in their FAQs? I'm worried that we will have to wait for a FWFAQ regarding their Knights, and who knows if or when that will ever happen..
But question is how they will address armiger? Change the rule or clarify example texts were wrong? Either it changed from CP to no CP or no CP to CP late in the production so that's what we will likely end up in the end but there's no real way to say which one it is.
MVPs Were:
The 4++ on the valiant, needless to say, don't want it blowing up before it gets into the middle of the opponents army.
Endless Fury and sacrisants on the gattling cannon, They felt comparable to each other.in terms of increased potential of troop killing, but i'd say the trait edged out the relic vs invuls.
e.
Don't have the book handy, but I didn't think you could put Blessing of the Sacristans onto Endless fury, or did you put it on the non relic Avenger?
2 crusaders. One with endless fury and the other one with sacristans on the avg. It's kind of accepted that knights would struggle putting out enough wounds to deal with a proper horde list and this seemed like the best solution to me.
They came out pretty on par with one another. Usually 2 extra hits from the relic and 2 extra mortal wounds from the trait.
Drider wrote: 2 crusaders. One with endless fury and the other one with sacristans on the avg. It's kind of accepted that knights would struggle putting out enough wounds to deal with a proper horde list and this seemed like the best solution to me.
They came out pretty on par with one another. Usually 2 extra hits from the relic and 2 extra mortal wounds from the trait.
Thanks for the clarification. I'd probably run a very similar list of I could fit it into 1750. Congrats on the win and thanks for the batrep
As for the opponent feeding the Gallant Chaff; knights don't fall back, they fall foreward(assuming he didn't wipe out the chaff in the opponent's fight phase) and can then freely charge a better target.
Assuming he doesn't simply surround the knight with chaff. The base is so big doesn't need to be that tight. Then you are either forced to charge the chaff or nothing. Just because enemy is close with chaff doesn't mean he HAS to charge you giving you free stomps and chance to fall back.
If your opponent is taking enough chaff to sac-block the charge, then move other units to surround the Gallant; that is 3 units of chaff and less big threatening weapons against the knights as a whole. The strategy has still performed to expectations. He is either losing another unit of chaff in your turn, or still focusing fire on the gallant instead of the longer ranged knights that are also tearing through his big guns/ melee units.
As for the Armiger issue in a Knight Lance: they do not have to errata the erroneous examples; but those could be addressed in the FAQ. I think we would all rather them Errata the Lance rule down to 2 big knights for CP retention though.
Also as a blamket Address to the Thread as a whole: Knight Lance Armiger issue only removes the CPs, a Lance of just 3 Armigers(in separate units) will still get Household Traditions and a Free Character.
Godeskian: he had indicated that the WL trait and relic are on different models in the list.
What's your opinion on using Warglaives? I'm on the fence with them: it seems they _can_ be quite good but on the other hand, can do nothing at all. Maybe it's better to invest the same points in the IG tanks?
Honestly, the chaff issue has me wanting to equip my Gallant with an Ironstorm Missile Pod. But my Crusader and Warden (ironically, I have a Tripartate Lance from 7e, completely unintentionally) will mow down as much as they can to clear a space for the Gallant to charge in. If my opponent didn't surround high value targets with chaff, I will use Full Tilt on my Gallant and launch him at the big stuff. If they did, I will be laying down fire with the Ironstorm. Sure, it won't do a ton of legwork, but it will be better than nothing.
Question for those of you who are math hammer inclined- Which is more efficient for their points an Armiger Warglaive with a melta gun (177) or a Storm Talon with twin Lascannons (204) from both an offensive and survivability level?
I ask because I can put either in an army I'm planning but can't figure out which to use.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Question for those of you who are math hammer inclined- Which is more efficient for their points an Armiger Warglaive with a melta gun (177) or a Storm Talon with twin Lascannons (204) from both an offensive and survivability level?
I ask because I can put either in an army I'm planning but can't figure out which to use.
Thanks for the input.
Against what? And what are the Stormtalon stats and weapons?
Leo_the_Rat wrote: Question for those of you who are math hammer inclined- Which is more efficient for their points an Armiger Warglaive with a melta gun (177) or a Storm Talon with twin Lascannons (204) from both an offensive and survivability level?
I ask because I can put either in an army I'm planning but can't figure out which to use.
Thanks for the input.
Offensively the Stormtalon puts out more damage at range via Strafing run and 18 more inches of range on the lascannons but only 6" less on the twin asscans. More average to hit roll will be made and will hit even at half wounds.
Survivability on the other hand... It has a 16.666% less chance of being hit so long as you do not hover, but you are wounded easier by Str 6 and 7 weapons(16.666% more on str 6, 33.3333% more on str 7) so any Autocannon that hits is more likely to damage.
They both have similar roles(tank busting and some light chaff removal), but do so at vastly different ranges(up to 48 for tank busting on talon, 15" to melee really on warglaive. Then 24" for chaff removal on talon and only melee for warglaive).
The warglaive can stand up better in a fight with the same basic Save bit a 5++ to ranged as well as the much higher toughness, but the talon is hard to hit when not hovering and cannot be charged.
If I had to guess, it will come out on the 25th, given that Harlequins came out two weeks before the Imperial Knights came out and their FAQ came out on the 11th.
Armigers count towards a lance and can generate CP if in a detachment with a Dominus or Questoris Class knight on a 1 to 1 ratio. Or 1 Preceptor for every 2 Armigers.
Stops them from being spammed but makes them useable to finish a lance instead of being required to take 3 Questoris/Dominus.
Kommissar Kel wrote: Offensively the Stormtalon puts out more damage at range via Strafing run and 18 more inches of range on the lascannons but only 6" less on the twin asscans. More average to hit roll will be made and will hit even at half wounds.
Survivability on the other hand... It has a 16.666% less chance of being hit so long as you do not hover, but you are wounded easier by Str 6 and 7 weapons(16.666% more on str 6, 33.3333% more on str 7) so any Autocannon that hits is more likely to damage.
They both have similar roles(tank busting and some light chaff removal), but do so at vastly different ranges(up to 48 for tank busting on talon, 15" to melee really on warglaive. Then 24" for chaff removal on talon and only melee for warglaive).
The warglaive can stand up better in a fight with the same basic Save bit a 5++ to ranged as well as the much higher toughness, but the talon is hard to hit when not hovering and cannot be charged.
That's kind of where I'm at. They both have advantages and disadvantages and I'm trying to build an all comers list so I don't have any specific army in mind. It seems to me that the Talon is a little better on the offense and the Armiger better on the defensive end of things. It's a difference of 25 points or so and I don't know if the Talon can make up that difference over the course of a game. The talon does have one more advantage offensively in that it can benefit from the reroll 1's aura on occasion but there's nothing that I know of that does the same for the Armiger without costing an additional 400+ pts (the Preceptor which isn't even available yet).
I like the idea of a mini MORTAN helverin detachment with just 3 of them (or even just 1 and ignore the household thing). While one of them is alive, you can threaten to IGNORE_MODIFIERS and REROLL_VERSUS_FLY for 2CP. That is some hilarious anti flier in a cheap package. The helverins also hide out of LOS better than a flyer can, and can readily move out of LOS to put their 60" range into play.
Armigers count towards a lance and can generate CP if in a detachment with a Dominus or Questoris Class knight on a 1 to 1 ratio. Or 1 Preceptor for every 2 Armigers.
Stops them from being spammed but makes them useable to finish a lance instead of being required to take 3 Questoris/Dominus.
Still don't see what so bad about spamming armigers that costs as much as 5CP from IG alone...
Still. GW has already decided on what it is. Even if they change it in FAQ it's already settled. We just have to wait what it will be. If still want it changed if it didn't just need to bombard them and hope for CA to help.
As much as it sucks that armigers can't generate CP, at least they don't need much CP to perform. Even Duncan himself runs a guard battalion with his Griffith knight lance. GW expects you to have guard in an imperial army. This is my take on a competitive knight list that I want to run at the BAO.
Depending on my opponent either i pour CP into the BLANGELS or the KNIGHTS. If I am up against Drukhari, might as well spend all the CP pre game for pregame buffs. If I am up against another midfield melee list, put durability stuff on the knights. If I can't possibly make a first turn knight charge, pour CP into captain smash to UWOF into their best model.
I'd much prefer using a battalion of AdMech for more CP though. 3 Ranger squads, 5 men in each, and 2 Tech Priests to keep it as cheap as possible. They can camp on some objectives, use the Stygies rules for that -1 to hit.
Guard is so boring and overused in my opinion, and my Knight house is Mechanicus aligned anyhow, so it fits better for me.
It's so used because it's so good and cheap for the role which is plenty of cheap bodies for cheap. AdMech can't compare in terms of cheap bodies so you need to do bit more with them than just camp on objectives. If that's all you want to do better have more survivable IG battallion do it.
Although there is something to be said for Taranis with admech. Castellan and crusaders relics and traits for full tank and repair. Playing for Valiant last stand, Machine spirit resurgent and Our darkest hour. Knight of the cog for shroudpsalm and or benediction of the omnissiah.
It's a total contrast to getting a valiant or gallant over the table to use Noble Sacrifice and it's something i'd like to try out at some point.
I am using guard because I want the grandStrategist + veritasVitae combo. If I didn't want that combo, admech with a few onagers would also be good. I lean towards guard because they have dramatically faster troops. I like Tallarn because it lets the basilisks move into better positions and lets my infantry advance and double shoot on the same turn. Also I can hide the basilisks if I am desparate.
Has anyone mathed Grand Strategist + VeritasVitae and 1cp on a knight relic and 1cp on a warlord trait VS making the guard warlord for Grand Strategist and spending the full 6cp on court and heirlooms. it's a 7CP spend before the game but could open the doors to pure hilarity.
Drider wrote: Although there is something to be said for Taranis with admech. Castellan and crusaders relics and traits for full tank and repair. Playing for Valiant last stand, Machine spirit resurgent and Our darkest hour. Knight of the cog for shroudpsalm and or benediction of the omnissiah.
It's a total contrast to getting a valiant or gallant over the table to use Noble Sacrifice and it's something i'd like to try out at some point.
That is my list:
Cruasder w/stormspear and TC, warlord - trait will be rolled for. Mark of the Omnissiah.
Warden with Reaper and Icarus
Errant with Thunderstrike and stormspear.
2x Warglaives with melta
Guard support Battalion:
Co commander
Primaris psyker
3x infantry squads with heavy bolter
Techpriest Enginseer.
Drider wrote: Although there is something to be said for Taranis with admech. Castellan and crusaders relics and traits for full tank and repair. Playing for Valiant last stand, Machine spirit resurgent and Our darkest hour. Knight of the cog for shroudpsalm and or benediction of the omnissiah.
It's a total contrast to getting a valiant or gallant over the table to use Noble Sacrifice and it's something i'd like to try out at some point.
That is my list:
Cruasder w/stormspear and TC, warlord - trait will be rolled for. Mark of the Omnissiah.
Warden with Reaper and Icarus
Errant with Thunderstrike and stormspear.
2x Warglaives with melta
Guard support Battalion:
Co commander
Primaris psyker
3x infantry squads with heavy bolter
Techpriest Enginseer.
Drop the Icarus. It is crap. You are mathematically better off with a Stormspear, if you can figure the points out. Which house are you using, by the way?
Drider wrote: Has anyone mathed Grand Strategist + VeritasVitae and 1cp on a knight relic and 1cp on a warlord trait VS making the guard warlord for Grand Strategist and spending the full 6cp on court and heirlooms. it's a 7CP spend before the game but could open the doors to pure hilarity.
So the way I have seen it played and the way I argue the RAW dictates, is that you can only possibly get refunds if the Commander (grand strat) or Smashcaptain (vitae) is physically deployed on the table. But all the WLT/Relic strategems happen before deployment. Since you can't possibly have either of those guys on the board at that time, you can't get any refunds on pre-game strats like that. BUT, I do think you can get refunds for things you spend during deployment (like STYGIES ifiltration) if your Commander is on the board prior to playing the strategem.
Drider wrote: Although there is something to be said for Taranis with admech. Castellan and crusaders relics and traits for full tank and repair. Playing for Valiant last stand, Machine spirit resurgent and Our darkest hour. Knight of the cog for shroudpsalm and or benediction of the omnissiah.
It's a total contrast to getting a valiant or gallant over the table to use Noble Sacrifice and it's something i'd like to try out at some point.
That is my list:
Cruasder w/stormspear and TC, warlord - trait will be rolled for. Mark of the Omnissiah.
Warden with Reaper and Icarus
Errant with Thunderstrike and stormspear.
2x Warglaives with melta
Guard support Battalion:
Co commander
Primaris psyker
3x infantry squads with heavy bolter
Techpriest Enginseer.
Drop the Icarus. It is crap. You are mathematically better off with a Stormspear, if you can figure the points out. Which house are you using, by the way?
There are enough units with Fly, and my main opponent plays all 4 Eldar so it doesn't quute suck as much for me.
Drider wrote: Although there is something to be said for Taranis with admech. Castellan and crusaders relics and traits for full tank and repair. Playing for Valiant last stand, Machine spirit resurgent and Our darkest hour. Knight of the cog for shroudpsalm and or benediction of the omnissiah.
It's a total contrast to getting a valiant or gallant over the table to use Noble Sacrifice and it's something i'd like to try out at some point.
That is my list:
Cruasder w/stormspear and TC, warlord - trait will be rolled for. Mark of the Omnissiah.
Warden with Reaper and Icarus
Errant with Thunderstrike and stormspear.
2x Warglaives with melta
Guard support Battalion:
Co commander
Primaris psyker
3x infantry squads with heavy bolter
Techpriest Enginseer.
Drop the Icarus. It is crap. You are mathematically better off with a Stormspear, if you can figure the points out. Which house are you using, by the way?
There are enough units with Fly, and my main opponent plays all 4 Eldar so it doesn't quute suck as much for me.
Also: Taranis.
Even in that case, a Stormspear is better, but if you don't have the points to pull it off, go with the Icarus. Taranis seems to be the go-to for a lot of people. I am kinda stuck between Hawkshroud and Taranis now. I want to do Mortan, but no transfers drives down that desire. My Knights are as follows (running alongside a SM Battalion with a PFPP Primaris Captain, Primaris Librarian, and three Intercessor Squads):
Assuming Mortan (my first choice):
Crusader with Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, and Stormspear
Warden with Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, and Stormspear
Gallant with Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Meltagun, and Ironstorm Missile Pod
Armiger Helverin with Heavy Stubber
Drider wrote: You wouldn't get refunds for the pregame spends. What i mean is
Knight warlord, 4CP pregame spend and:
1CP 5+ refund per strat you use. (From BA Veritas Vitae)
1CP 5+ refund per strat your opponent uses. (From IG Aquila)
Vs
Guard warlord, 7CP pregame spend and:
1CP 5+ refund per strat you use. (From BA Veritas Vitae)
1CP 5+ refund per strat your opponent uses. (From IG Aquila)
1CP 5+ refund per CP you spend. (From IG Grand Strategist)
Meaning there is a chance that that 1cp Rotate Ion Shield strat could potentially refund you 2CP.
(As always, assuming my math is right: )
Okay lets assume you have 11CP to start with (1 IG Bat for 5 CP, 1 SH with 3 big knights for 3 more, and 3 starting CP).
How many CP your opponent has also matters. Lets say they have 9, as it makes the math a bit easier. If they have 12 then you can up the averages below by about 1-2. As the game goes on we will assume that the opponent with 9 CP will spend them on 6 stratagems. This means you get 2 CP from them over the course of the game.
If you make the IG the warlord and spend 7CP before the game starts, you are down to 4. You get 2 from your opponent over the course of the game so you have 6.
Then each time you use a strat, you get a 5+ chance to get a CP back, and another 5+ for each CP you used. So how many you get back depends on how many strats you use and how much they cost, but you get:
An average of .66 CP each time you spend 1 CP on a strat. If you only spend 1 CP on every strat, you end up getting about 10 extra CP or 16 total from this on average before running out.
An average of 1 CP pack each time you spend 2 CP on a strat. If you only spend CP on 2 CP strats, you end up doubling your CP with 6 extra on average and a total of 12.
If you use only 3 CP strats you'll get 1.3 back each time, for a [b]total average of about 10.
So with this set up (starting with 11CP and getting 2 from the opponent), the average number of CP you get to use in a game is between 16 and 10, depending on what strats you use (1 CP gets you more back on average than 2 or 3). If that isn't broken i don't know what is.
If this seems like a lot, try it your self if you want. Start with the number six in your head, and roll 2D6 over and over, subtracting 1 each time you roll, and adding 1 each time you roll a 5+. Each time you roll 2D6, you have a 66% chance to get 1 CP back, and an 11% chance of getting 2 CP back. There isn't a limit to the number of CP you can get back, and when you get lucky and get 2 CP back it puts you ahead again. I tried it with some of my dice and got to 39 total CP spent starting just with 6. I got lucky, but it really isn't unusual to get lucky a few times and get a ton of extra CP, especially on the 1 CP strats where your chances of getting the CP back is better than a coin flip, and you have the 11% chance to actually gain a CP.
If you make the IK the warlord and start with 7 CP after spending 4, you still get the 2 CP from your opponent's strats, but you only get to roll 1 dice per strat used, and not per CP used.
This means you have a 33% chance to get a CP back anytime you pop a strat of any cost, and you can never get 2 or more CP because you are only rolling 1 dice.
If you only use 1 CP strats, this ends up getting you about 4 extra CP, [b]or 13 total.
If you only use 2 CP strats, it only gets you about 1-2 extra, or 10-11 total.
If you only use 3 CP strats, it only gets you 1 free CP, or 10 total.
So as you can see, the IG warlord trait is much, much better, mainly due to the fact that you get to roll per CP used, and have the chance to actually gain CP on your rolls, and a much higher possibility for your CP to spiral out of control.
Since I did all the math for those two options, I might as well do it for just the 5+ per CP role by itself as well, if you didn't take the relic too.
Edit: I forgot there had to be BA in there as well so the initial starting CP might be different, but the general concept is still right.
Drider wrote: You wouldn't get refunds for the pregame spends. What i mean is
Knight warlord, 4CP pregame spend and:
1CP 5+ refund per strat you use.
1CP 5+ refund per strat your opponent uses.
Vs
Guard warlord, 7CP pregame spend and:
1CP 5+ refund per strat you use.
1CP 5+ refund per strat your opponent uses.
1CP 5+ refund per CP you spend.
Meaning there is a chance that that 1cp Rotate Ion Shield strat could potentially refund you 2CP.
Problem is you use so much CP that CP you spend refund becomes near worthless and start per you use isn\t much better. By the time you have got enough from opponent uses to count game is basically over as 8th ed is 1-2 turn games edition.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kommissar Kel wrote: It is more about the models I own: only 2 Renegade boxes and 1 Forgebane box.
so i only Have 2 Missile Pods and 2 Icarus Autocannons.
at any Rate with 4 Melta weapons and 2 Stormspears I should be good enough on anti-vehicle.
That\s more understandable. I would look for bits stores then for more missiles if you use 3 carapace weapons. Thing is say against eldar falcon that missile causes about 1W MORE than autocannon. Against flier like crimson hunter yeah here autocannon eeks out but 1.7 vs 1.5 wounds isn\t huge difference either way...
Now albeit if you KNOW you face lots of eldar fliers guess you could list tailor with those.
Wulfey wrote: Tallarn because it lets the basilisks move into better positions and lets my infantry advance and double shoot on the same turn. Also I can hide the basilisks if I am desparate.
You do not "hide Basilisk if you are desperate", you literally take Basilisks to hide them. With their range and ability to shoot without LOS if you ever have to move them out of cover, you are doing something terribly wrong 'cause there is no "better position" for them than behind the biggest LOS-block you can find as far away from the enemy as possible. And of course, the only doctrine you want to have on Basilisks is Cadian for that precious re-rolls to-hit.
Wulfey wrote: Tallarn because it lets the basilisks move into better positions and lets my infantry advance and double shoot on the same turn. Also I can hide the basilisks if I am desparate.
You do not "hide Basilisk if you are desperate", you literally take Basilisks to hide them. With their range and ability to shoot without LOS if you ever have to move them out of cover, you are doing something terribly wrong 'cause there is no "better position" for them than behind the biggest LOS-block you can find as far away from the enemy as possible. And of course, the only doctrine you want to have on Basilisks is Cadian for that precious re-rolls to-hit.
Or catachan for more shots.
Though you are wrong in that there's never point to move and I have done that with manticore as well before(and no it wasn't just cause missiles were out) but generally yeah so situational that it's not worth the trait. Which is why I figured he might be planning to put infantry on reserves for far end objective grabbing or keeping infantry alive for bit more(Which wouldn't even be that bad idea neccessarily if you had CP to spend for that)
Page 106
– Knight Lances ability
Change the last sentence to read:
‘The Command Benefit of each Imperial Knights Super-heavy Detachment is changed to ‘None’ if it does not contain at least one Imperial Knights Titanicunit,
and is changed to ‘+6 Command Points’ if it contains at least three Imperial Knights Titanic units .’
Page 106
– Knight Lances ability
Change the last sentence to read:
‘The Command Benefit of each Imperial Knights Super-heavy Detachment is changed to ‘None’ if it does not contain at least one Imperial Knights Titanicunit,
and is changed to ‘+6 Command Points’ if it contains at least three Imperial Knights Titanic units .’
Instantly made Armigers so much more enticing to me as someone who previously had zero interest in them.
Doubling the CP gained for having three or more big Knights in the one detachment made Knight heavy lists a lot more exciting. I still don't think pure Knight armies will work at a competitive level but at least they aren't capped at 6CP in 2000 point games anymore.
Ice_can wrote: Both CP changes are big, though looks like FW is still out in the cold. But I'm happy with those changes.
It's not surprising really, onus is on Forge World to update their data-sheets to fit. I was hoping it would come with the codex FAQ but I guess we might have to wait a bit longer.
Holy crap, this changes EVERYTHING when it comes to my Knight army. I might take my Marines out and run an all Knight army now (though 3 CP for a second SH Detachment instead of 5 CP for a Battalion is a bit of a trade-off).
Previously, you could only take three knights in a SHD to gain the +3 cp so Armigers didn't count towards that. Now though, you can take one big knight and two smaller to get the +3cp as normal or take three big guys and get +6cp instead.
They did mention on the FB page that a Forge World FAQ should be coming today so look out for that.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Holy crap, this changes EVERYTHING when it comes to my Knight army. I might take my Marines out and run an all Knight army now (though 3 CP for a second SH Detachment instead of 5 CP for a Battalion is a bit of a trade-off).
You are netting 1 additional CP.
If your first SHD had 3 big knights, you had +3 CP, add in Battalion for +5. Now you have +6 and +3. 9 is one more than 8(12 total with the 3 starting vs 11).
I was going to get Snarky about the Vulker FAQ question until I just went back and re-read it; with the Trigger of "when Resolving shooting attacks against the nearest Targeted enemy" I can see the misunderstood reading that lead to the question.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Holy crap, this changes EVERYTHING when it comes to my Knight army. I might take my Marines out and run an all Knight army now (though 3 CP for a second SH Detachment instead of 5 CP for a Battalion is a bit of a trade-off).
You are netting 1 additional CP.
If your first SHD had 3 big knights, you had +3 CP, add in Battalion for +5. Now you have +6 and +3. 9 is one more than 8(12 total with the 3 starting vs 11).
I was going to get Snarky about the Vulker FAQ question until I just went back and re-read it; with the Trigger of "when Resolving shooting attacks against the nearest Targeted enemy" I can see the misunderstood reading that lead to the question.
Yeah, I have been up all night, so my math sucks. Now I need to figure out how to work this army to it's fullest. I am probably still better off with the Battalion instead of the second SHD for some objective claiming ability, but I do want to figure out a way to make my Knights work without them.
This update definitely makes me happy I bought a set of Helverins on the eBay sale yesterday. Now I just need to figure out how to fit two Helverins and a Knight in for 480 pts (it can't be done).
So this makes me want to take taranis now 2cp to revive a dead knight on a 4+ 1 more to reroll that and 1 more to make it top profile “FROM HELLS HEART I STAB AT THEE, FROM HELLS HEART I SPIT MY LAST BREATH AT THEE!”
gendoikari87 wrote: So this makes me want to take taranis now 2cp to revive a dead knight on a 4+ 1 more to reroll that and 1 more to make it top profile “FROM HELLS HEART I STAB AT THEE, FROM HELLS HEART I SPIT MY LAST BREATH AT THEE!”
How I imagine your opponent's reaction.
Seriously, this update makes me so much more likely to do things like take the 3 CP Exalted Court and the 3 CP Heirlooms as well as add more Helverins into my army. The possibility of running two Gallants instead of one just went up for me.
You can take 3 big knights and 3 littles now, and even do stuff like bring two different houses by going 1/2 and 2/1 big/little knights, which is pretty cool.
Well yes but 2-3 cp is expensive, at best 75% chance and d3 wounds left so if enemy has anything close they can charge and finish it. And always 1/6 chance you can't use strategem. 30% with dominatus class. Compared to other house strategem not that good. It's more of fun lol one for fun
My plan is to run a gallant, a paladin, and 2 warglaives alongside 2 Guard battalions and it comes out to an even 2000 pts with CP being generated by each detachment.
Armiger change is very nice, but not exactly huge. A 1 titan/2 arm SHD is a lot more interesting and viable now and running pure knights is interesting with 4 knights and a pair, but fairly limiting in terms of how you outfit the Questors.
Great intelligent, impactful and exciting changes overall though. Doesn't cause me to rewrite my lists too much, but I'm excited for a little more CP to play with.
At 2k you can now have a detachment of 3 big knights and a second one of a big knight and 2 armigers. Total of 12 CPs.
Hope people haven't painted too many IG for their knights so far. Stop now.
So for example:
Warden with Ironstorm 426
Warden with Ironstorm 426
Warden with Stormspear 456
Gallant 354
Warglaive 164
Helverin 174
That's in no way difinitive, of course. You could have some crusaders in there if you went for more gallants, or fewer carapace weapons. You could certainly make the lance with the Gallant be from house Terryn, and the other one from any other house.
You can only have a Dominus knight if you go for loads of gallants, or if you put armigers in both detachments and forgo 3 CPs.
Mandragola wrote: At 2k you can now have a detachment of 3 big knights and a second one of a big knight and 2 armigers. Total of 12 CPs.
Hope people haven't painted too many IG for their knights so far. Stop now.
So for example:
Warden with Ironstorm 426
Warden with Ironstorm 426
Warden with Stormspear 456
Gallant 354
Warglaive 164
Helverin 174
That's in no way difinitive, of course. You could have some crusaders in there if you went for more gallants, or fewer carapace weapons. You could certainly make the lance with the Gallant be from house Terryn, and the other one from any other house.
You can only have a Dominus knight if you go for loads of gallants, or if you put armigers in both detachments and forgo 3 CPs.
Definitely seems viable, and the decision between having 3 knights with relics and warlord traits vs 2 plus the guard CP battery seems like a real one now, which I like.
Crazyterran wrote: The Knights codex says Imperial Knights can't take Rulebook Warlord Traits, on the Warlord Traits page, I thought?
That it does. I missed it. Probably because it would be insane to have a Knight that can ignore all wounds on a 6 (Taranis can't ignore Mortal Wounds).
Mandragola wrote: At 2k you can now have a detachment of 3 big knights and a second one of a big knight and 2 armigers. Total of 12 CPs.
Hope people haven't painted too many IG for their knights so far. Stop now.
.
For very competive ig still required for bodies, more cp and regeneration of cp. All knights still won't be super hot in competive enviromen'
I think this will need to be tested - which I intend to do soon. My theory is that IKs will have enough CPs to be getting on with. Adding in IG to have infinite CPs is nice, but not required. I've always maintained that having 5 extra drops is a very bad thing. It makes it much less likely that you'll go first - which you want to do a lot. And it more than doubles your CP count. And also, it only even gives you 2 more CPs (plus regen) over what that second knight lance with armigers would give you. I'm not at all convinced that it's worthwhile, overall. There is more to competitive 40k than maxing out CPs.
Things might be different at 1750. At that points value you can't afford two lances, but you can have one and a battalion. In that scenario you'd be getting 5 extra CPs, plus regen, not just 2.
The new FAQ also helps swings the valiant vs castellan argument. As mentioned, the meta will probably change and big knight + 2 armigers will probably become standard in soup lists, you're going to want that volcano lance
Cp knights still will be short without ig. Also you will have so few units and models with pure knights you might win on casualties but lose on scenario
UMGuy wrote: The new FAQ also helps swings the valiant vs castellan argument. As mentioned, the meta will probably change and big knight + 2 armigers will probably become standard in soup lists, you're going to want that volcano lance
The argument had swung toward the Castellan long before that. The Valiant is in a pretty bad place considering one of its weapons is effectively worthless.
• This model may replace its thunderstrike gauntlet with an avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer, rapid-fire
battle cannon and heavy stubber, or thermal cannon.
• This model may replace its reaper chainsword with an avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer, rapid-fire battle
cannon and heavy stubber, or thermal cannon
Am i just mistaken or can a renegade knight take 2 Avenger gatling cannons, Rapid-fire battle cannons or thermal cannons.
or have i just missed something in the new index.
This change is interesting. 3 cp more to play with! I've made this list as a reaction, not exactly optimal but not bad either. Hopefully the -1 to hit on the custodes discourages people from shooting them until they hit combat, where they will put on the hurt. Don't have a clear idea of tactics yet, but I know that the jetbike captains will hide behind he custodes until in range for a guaranteed charge. What do you think?
++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [43 PL, 805pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Household Choice: House Krast, Questor Mechanicus
+ Lord of War +
Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 174pts] . Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber
Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 174pts] . Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber
Knight Crusader [25 PL, 457pts]: Heavy stubber, Heirloom: Endless Fury, Thermal cannon, Warlord Trait (Krast): First Knight
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Character: Warlord
++ Auxiliary Support Detachment -1CP (Imperium - Officio Assassinorum) [5 PL, 85pts] ++
+ Elites +
Culexus Assassin [5 PL, 85pts]
++ Total: [106 PL, 1997pts] ++
Created with BattleScribe The culexus isn't necessary, but it's what I have and any anti psyker is welcome over a missile pod. Hopefully it's enough ranged AT to do well.
Sim-B wrote: • This model may replace its thunderstrike gauntlet with an avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer, rapid-fire
battle cannon and heavy stubber, or thermal cannon.
• This model may replace its reaper chainsword with an avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer, rapid-fire battle
cannon and heavy stubber, or thermal cannon
Am i just mistaken or can a renegade knight take 2 Avenger gatling cannons, Rapid-fire battle cannons or thermal cannons.
or have i just missed something in the new index.
Sim-B wrote: • This model may replace its thunderstrike gauntlet with an avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer, rapid-fire battle cannon and heavy stubber, or thermal cannon. • This model may replace its reaper chainsword with an avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer, rapid-fire battle cannon and heavy stubber, or thermal cannon
Am i just mistaken or can a renegade knight take 2 Avenger gatling cannons, Rapid-fire battle cannons or thermal cannons. or have i just missed something in the new index.
Yep. The downside is you are stuck being Chaos and don't have any fancy Imperial Knights Codex stratagems, warlord traits, whatever.
EDIT: Just checked Warhammer-Community, I am behind the times. Man, that is very nice of GW to do for Renegade Knights. I'm impressed.
Sim-B wrote: • This model may replace its thunderstrike gauntlet with an avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer, rapid-fire
battle cannon and heavy stubber, or thermal cannon.
• This model may replace its reaper chainsword with an avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer, rapid-fire battle
cannon and heavy stubber, or thermal cannon
Am i just mistaken or can a renegade knight take 2 Avenger gatling cannons, Rapid-fire battle cannons or thermal cannons.
or have i just missed something in the new index.
They've always been able to do that. The downside is they can only have 3 knights of each chassis type (or 9 armigers in 3 squadrons) at 2k.
The practical downside is you have to either purchase two knights to get dual guns, or find bitz or a knockoff part, which probably will run you $25-30.
Wow, i was not expecting the 3 big Knight Lance to get boosted to +6CP - though i am glad you can now run 1 big Knight and 2 Armigers!
First thoughts... I absolutely LOVE their youtube vid on Renegade Knights (in spoiler)
Spoiler:
I was then tempted to go Renegade instead of Imperial Knights, but, i don't feel like their relics and WL trait make it worthwhile making the change. Could be interesting going forward!
And, to top it off! GW has now saved me the cost of several Scion boxes! I could still opt to run double battalion and 3 Knights, but now, i feel like a single battalion, 3 Knights and 2 Armigers gives me everything i need!
A little surprised that there were no points changes for the FW Knights, but, i think that will come in time when FW get around to their version of codices over the current indices.
All in all, a very nice surprise to come home from the pub to!
Oh wow I don’t play chaos but that’s so cool. Well done Gw colour me impressed
it is less than chaos players deserve but more than I expected
Whilst I agree I’m always keen to award credit where it’s due. It’s definately a sign things are heading in a positive direction.
A business does best when it listens to its consumer base.
Profits and smiles all round
Edit phone has gone mad (I burst out laughing at tentacles)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kdash wrote: Wow, i was not expecting the 3 big Knight Lance to get boosted to +6CP - though i am glad you can now run 1 big Knight and 2 Armigers!
First thoughts... I absolutely LOVE their youtube vid on Renegade Knights (in spoiler)
Spoiler:
I was then tempted to go Renegade instead of Imperial Knights, but, i don't feel like their relics and WL trait make it worthwhile making the change. Could be interesting going forward!
And, to top it off! GW has now saved me the cost of several Scion boxes! I could still opt to run double battalion and 3 Knights, but now, i feel like a single battalion, 3 Knights and 2 Armigers gives me everything i need!
A little surprised that there were no points changes for the FW Knights, but, i think that will come in time when FW get around to their version of codices over the current indices.
Wulfey wrote: Tallarn because it lets the basilisks move into better positions and lets my infantry advance and double shoot on the same turn. Also I can hide the basilisks if I am desparate.
You do not "hide Basilisk if you are desperate", you literally take Basilisks to hide them. With their range and ability to shoot without LOS if you ever have to move them out of cover, you are doing something terribly wrong 'cause there is no "better position" for them than behind the biggest LOS-block you can find as far away from the enemy as possible. And of course, the only doctrine you want to have on Basilisks is Cadian for that precious re-rolls to-hit.
Let me be more explicit, I can use the AMBUSH strategem to keep them off the board if I run up against an opponent with too many lascannons.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
UMGuy wrote: The new FAQ also helps swings the valiant vs castellan argument. As mentioned, the meta will probably change and big knight + 2 armigers will probably become standard in soup lists, you're going to want that volcano lance
I vote for house RAVEN with castellan and 2 armigers. 4++ and Cawl's wrath on the castellan. Helverins or Warglaives are both viable since both benefit from the advance and shoot tradition of raven. I prefer helverins because they can be hidden out of LOS and be a threat all game from 60" away. Warglaives would require a more fighty tradition to really pay off.
Let me be more explicit, I can use the AMBUSH strategem to keep them off the board if I run up against an opponent with too many lascannons.
Oh, you can be totally comfortable without it: no one in his (hers) sane mind will shoot Basilisk with LCs if there is a Knight on the table. Or a tank. Or just _anything_ really important. IG is my main army, I know it from a lot of experience. No one is afraid of Basilisks and if some noob will waste his shots on that guys you can dance and laugh from joy.
Let me be more explicit, I can use the AMBUSH strategem to keep them off the board if I run up against an opponent with too many lascannons.
Oh, you can be totally comfortable without it: no one in his (hers) sane mind will shoot Basilisk with LCs if there is a Knight on the table. Or a tank. Or just _anything_ really important. IG is my main army, I know it from a lot of experience. No one is afraid of Basilisks and if some noob will waste his shots on that guys you can dance and laugh from joy.
I think you have a point. When I ran my basilisks in an admech soup nobody ever shot at them either. In light of the FAQ I am thinking this is my new soup, base 19 CP, expect to spend down to 12CP with full CP farm going, 2 full buffed slamCaptains, and one Landstrider / 2+ armor knight. I am upping the non-LOS shooting so I can pick on enemy mortar teams and light infantry even more than I do. And I am switching to CADIA so I can get stronger anti-horde versus CHAOS when I really need it. I will have the CP to do the taranis get back up strategem with a reroll every time a knight goes down. Or I can just yolo and spend all my CP on one turn of slam captain double swinging.
Let me be more explicit, I can use the AMBUSH strategem to keep them off the board if I run up against an opponent with too many lascannons.
Oh, you can be totally comfortable without it: no one in his (hers) sane mind will shoot Basilisk with LCs if there is a Knight on the table. Or a tank. Or just _anything_ really important. IG is my main army, I know it from a lot of experience. No one is afraid of Basilisks and if some noob will waste his shots on that guys you can dance and laugh from joy.
I think you have a point. When I ran my basilisks in an admech soup nobody ever shot at them either. In light of the FAQ I am thinking this is my new soup, base 19 CP, expect to spend down to 12CP with full CP farm going, 2 full buffed slamCaptains, and one Landstrider / 2+ armor knight. I am upping the non-LOS shooting so I can pick on enemy mortar teams and light infantry even more than I do. And I am switching to CADIA so I can get stronger anti-horde versus CHAOS when I really need it. I will have the CP to do the taranis get back up strategem with a reroll every time a knight goes down. Or I can just yolo and spend all my CP on one turn of slam captain double swinging.
The triple Gallant + cp factory + smash captains is pretty much the first list everyone competitive thought about. It’s not bad but terrain is a big problem for the Gallants, as are screening units. In short, they look nice on paper, but in reality it just doesn’t work out as well as imagined. It has no anti air either after the two suiciders are dead. Vs. Eldar the Gallants are chasing Rangers inside ruins and essentially wasting their time.
Melee units without fly are sadly pretty crap. Hence the low points cost. I see a lot of people getting lured in by that 354 price tag but to be honest I’d just field a 404p Shadowsword.
Castellan on the other hand does great work point by point vs T7, while simultaneously being a lot more survivable than Shadowswords (costs CP though), and is unaffected really by terrain or other issues.
UMGuy wrote: The new FAQ also helps swings the valiant vs castellan argument. As mentioned, the meta will probably change and big knight + 2 armigers will probably become standard in soup lists, you're going to want that volcano lance
The argument had swung toward the Castellan long before that. The Valiant is in a pretty bad place considering one of its weapons is effectively worthless.
My Valiant has single-handedly defeated Mortarion. A big part of that was due to that harpoon. I'd hardly consider that 'worthless'.
The Valiant is probably one of the most valuable Hawkshroud Knights you can get. Give it the Traitor's Pyre and laugh as anything that tries to exploit the common knight weakness of 'doesn't have an invul in close combat' never makes it to close combat. Sit it behind a screening line of Guardsmen/Skitarii/Space Marines and pop the stratagem that allows you to shoot overwatch and heroically intervene on behalf of your Imperium ally and laugh as the enemy never even makes it towards your screen.
You don't even have to take the relic or that household to make the Valiant amazing, either. And when that Harpoon does land, it's just amazing. The look on your opponent's face as that thing one-shots a perfectly healthy transport is priceless.
UMGuy wrote: The new FAQ also helps swings the valiant vs castellan argument. As mentioned, the meta will probably change and big knight + 2 armigers will probably become standard in soup lists, you're going to want that volcano lance
The argument had swung toward the Castellan long before that. The Valiant is in a pretty bad place considering one of its weapons is effectively worthless.
My Valiant has single-handedly defeated Mortarion. A big part of that was due to that harpoon. I'd hardly consider that 'worthless'.
The Valiant is probably one of the most valuable Hawkshroud Knights you can get. Give it the Traitor's Pyre and laugh as anything that tries to exploit the common knight weakness of 'doesn't have an invul in close combat' never makes it to close combat. Sit it behind a screening line of Guardsmen/Skitarii/Space Marines and pop the stratagem that allows you to shoot overwatch and heroically intervene on behalf of your Imperium ally and laugh as the enemy never even makes it towards your screen.
You don't even have to take the relic or that household to make the Valiant amazing, either. And when that Harpoon does land, it's just amazing. The look on your opponent's face as that thing one-shots a perfectly healthy transport is priceless.
Yes, but how often do you get to use the Harpoon? Pretty much not at all on turn one. The Valiant, unless it is House Raven, just isn't fast enough to get it in range. So you can basically write off the Harpoon, which the Valiant pays points-baked-in for, for a turn. Does the Castellan have that limitation? Nope. It can reach anywhere on the the board with it's weapons. I have watched the Valiant go to work in battle reports. It is definitely a sight to see. But it really doesn't measure up to the Castellan in terms of effectiveness.
UMGuy wrote: The new FAQ also helps swings the valiant vs castellan argument. As mentioned, the meta will probably change and big knight + 2 armigers will probably become standard in soup lists, you're going to want that volcano lance
The argument had swung toward the Castellan long before that. The Valiant is in a pretty bad place considering one of its weapons is effectively worthless.
My Valiant has single-handedly defeated Mortarion. A big part of that was due to that harpoon. I'd hardly consider that 'worthless'.
The Valiant is probably one of the most valuable Hawkshroud Knights you can get. Give it the Traitor's Pyre and laugh as anything that tries to exploit the common knight weakness of 'doesn't have an invul in close combat' never makes it to close combat. Sit it behind a screening line of Guardsmen/Skitarii/Space Marines and pop the stratagem that allows you to shoot overwatch and heroically intervene on behalf of your Imperium ally and laugh as the enemy never even makes it towards your screen.
You don't even have to take the relic or that household to make the Valiant amazing, either. And when that Harpoon does land, it's just amazing. The look on your opponent's face as that thing one-shots a perfectly healthy transport is priceless.
Yes, but how often do you get to use the Harpoon? Pretty much not at all on turn one. The Valiant, unless it is House Raven, just isn't fast enough to get it in range. So you can basically write off the Harpoon, which the Valiant pays points-baked-in for, for a turn. Does the Castellan have that limitation? Nope. It can reach anywhere on the the board with it's weapons. I have watched the Valiant go to work in battle reports. It is definitely a sight to see. But it really doesn't measure up to the Castellan in terms of effectiveness.
That harpoon has some value as a threat rather than an actual damage dealer. It creates a big bubble of NOPE around a Valiant that big models without an invul save (like Rhinos) desperately want to stay out of.
Now, that said, I would never run a Valiant alone, but rather only with an entire detachment of Knights. If everything is shooting at the Valiant, they are ignoring the Gallant, Crusader, and other potentially dangerous Knights that are also in the army. And if I was running a Valiant, I would give it the Ion Bulwark trait so that it takes a fair amount of firepower to bring it down. And believe me, I would certainly have a Gallant with Landstrider using Full Tilt to get into the opponent's face on turn 1, making it a bigger threat that must be dealt with. The Valiant therefore has time to get the harpoon into position to wreck some face.
Personally I feel like the Castellan and the Valiant each have their niche, and their own style of play. As to which is better, I think it's far too early to tell. Let's wait and render judgement after Knights hit a few tournaments.
The thing is, 600 pts for a NOPE bubble is absurdly overpriced. The flamer is great, don't get me wrong. But, the Harpoon is lackluster. Maybe if it was a melee weapon too (complete with a bonus to hit so the Valiant doesn't suck in melee). And maybe if it had a more unified role, it would be better. If they wanted it to hunt hordes, make both of its weapons work toward that. I dunno. Schizo has never really worked great in 40K.
But really, tell me you don't like the idea of the Valiant swinging that Harpoon around like a flail.
I will still paint my Valiant up nice. But I don't think it will ever see play at its points level. Reductions required.
I think you have a point. When I ran my basilisks in an admech soup nobody ever shot at them either. In light of the FAQ I am thinking this is my new soup, base 19 CP, expect to spend down to 12CP with full CP farm going, 2 full buffed slamCaptains, and one Landstrider / 2+ armor knight. I am upping the non-LOS shooting so I can pick on enemy mortar teams and light infantry even more than I do. And I am switching to CADIA so I can get stronger anti-horde versus CHAOS when I really need it. I will have the CP to do the taranis get back up strategem with a reroll every time a knight goes down. Or I can just yolo and spend all my CP on one turn of slam captain double swinging.
What's the thought process of making them Taranis? Is it the tradition or statagem you want the house for? Or both? I guess most of the close combat oriented traditions are on questor imperialis so is it fear of missing out on machine spirit resurgent that's a driving factor?
luke1705 wrote: I like the BA idea for pairing up with guard. Helps address a lot of the knights’ weaknesses, and gives you another CP farm.
I’m looking at something like:
Raven
Castellan (4++, relic plasma)
Warden (landstrider)
Gallant (either 5++ in combat or paragon gauntlet)
Cadian Battalion
2 Company Commanders (kurov’s, grand strategist)
2 infantry squads w/1 mortar
1 normal infantry squad
BA Battalion
Mephiston
Slamguinius (Vitas Veritae)
3 x 5 Scouts
You’ll be better off with just 2x Castellan, 1x Helverin (hide it at the backline), Meph, Captain with Angels Wings, Scouts, CC, Primaris Psyker, 3 Inf Squads with mortars. Melee knights I just don’t understand. They are too big, can’t fly and actually can run into many units that wreck them in CC even if they get there.
Tanaris is always a pretty solid choice. Who doesn’t want to have knights that live longer?
That said, I’d never use more than one gallant. They really want full tilt used on them for turn one charges, which isn’t going to work here. It means that at least two knights will have zero effect on turn one, which means you’re playing with 1300 points that turn.
I’d much rather have an errant or warden that can shoot on turn one and charge in turn two. Killing things on turn one means they don’t kill you, so you’re alive to kill something else on turn two. This is especially important for knights, which are vulnerable to some very specific stuff. Kill that stuff early on and the game will go well. Charge info an undamaged army and it will not.
Mandragola wrote: Tanaris is always a pretty solid choice. Who doesn’t want to have knights that live longer?
That said, I’d never use more than one gallant. They really want full tilt used on them for turn one charges, which isn’t going to work here. It means that at least two knights will have zero effect on turn one, which means you’re playing with 1300 points that turn.
I’d much rather have an errant or warden that can shoot on turn one and charge in turn two. Killing things on turn one means they don’t kill you, so you’re alive to kill something else on turn two. This is especially important for knights, which are vulnerable to some very specific stuff. Kill that stuff early on and the game will go well. Charge info an undamaged army and it will not.
I- you want to kill something turn 1 gallant is bad anyway. It will kill something only if opponent allows and anything opponent allows isn't going to be critical. More like trap
luke1705 wrote: I like the BA idea for pairing up with guard. Helps address a lot of the knights’ weaknesses, and gives you another CP farm.
I’m looking at something like:
Raven
Castellan (4++, relic plasma)
Warden (landstrider)
Gallant (either 5++ in combat or paragon gauntlet)
Cadian Battalion
2 Company Commanders (kurov’s, grand strategist)
2 infantry squads w/1 mortar
1 normal infantry squad
BA Battalion
Mephiston
Slamguinius (Vitas Veritae)
3 x 5 Scouts
You’ll be better off with just 2x Castellan, 1x Helverin (hide it at the backline), Meph, Captain with Angels Wings, Scouts, CC, Primaris Psyker, 3 Inf Squads with mortars. Melee knights I just don’t understand. They are too big, can’t fly and actually can run into many units that wreck them in CC even if they get there.
I understand that sentiment, but having the knights means that I'll have more melee threats for those guys to deal with
Had a match with my friend. IK vs Ik army. Valiant was fun. He brought 2 amigers, a lance of Gallant, Valiant and 2 battalions of IG. He had CP out of the walzo because he used grand strategist and that CP relic so he was getting back CP on a 5+.
I brought a battalion of mechanicus (barebones 2 engineseers and 3 squads of rangers). A lance of Castelan, Valiant and Gallant.
My Valiant accounted for at least 4 squads of his IG, and 2 commanders. And also helped out to kill his big knights and amigers.
It ended with him having a 2 man squad holding one objective, his remaining two commanders hiding. And my 2 Dominus class holding the other two objectives (holding objectives was important).
My Valiant survived to the end with just 2 hp remaining but was effective throughout because its confragation cannon does not degrade.
I think I would have lost the objective game if not for my Valiant. That flamer literally erases one squad of IG each time it goes off. And if a Valiant wants to take an objective, a few squads of IG are not gonna stop it. lol (I mean, it may slow it down for a turn, or two, but its not gonna stop it from taking that objective).
His Valiant accounted for itself well too. It stood up to a charge and 5 attacks from my Gallant and did not die. Its overwatch took off like 12 hp from my Gallant. And when he double charged my Gallant with his Valiant and Gallant, it was his Valiant that did the finishing blow after his Gallant failed to kill my already injured Gallant.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Had a match with my friend. IK vs Ik army. Valiant was fun. He brought 2 amigers, a lance of Gallant, Valiant and 2 battalions of IG. He had CP out of the walzo because he used grand strategist and that CP relic so he was getting back CP on a 5+.
I brought a battalion of mechanicus (barebones 2 engineseers and 3 squads of rangers). A lance of Castelan, Valiant and Gallant.
My Valiant accounted for at least 4 squads of his IG, and 2 commanders. And also helped out to kill his big knights and amigers.
It ended with him having a 2 man squad holding one objective, his remaining two commanders hiding. And my 2 Dominus class holding the other two objectives (holding objectives was important).
My Valiant survived to the end with just 2 hp remaining but was effective throughout because its confragation cannon does not degrade.
I think I would have lost the objective game if not for my Valiant. That flamer literally erases one squad of IG each time it goes off. And if a Valiant wants to take an objective, a few squads of IG are not gonna stop it. lol (I mean, it may slow it down for a turn, or two, but its not gonna stop it from taking that objective).
His Valiant accounted for itself well too. It stood up to a charge and 5 attacks from my Gallant and did not die. Its overwatch took off like 12 hp from my Gallant. And when he double charged my Gallant with his Valiant and Gallant, it was his Valiant that did the finishing blow after his Gallant failed to kill my already injured Gallant.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The thing is, 600 pts for a NOPE bubble is absurdly overpriced. The flamer is great, don't get me wrong. But, the Harpoon is lackluster. Maybe if it was a melee weapon too (complete with a bonus to hit so the Valiant doesn't suck in melee). And maybe if it had a more unified role, it would be better. If they wanted it to hunt hordes, make both of its weapons work toward that. I dunno. Schizo has never really worked great in 40K.
But really, tell me you don't like the idea of the Valiant swinging that Harpoon around like a flail.
I will still paint my Valiant up nice. But I don't think it will ever see play at its points level. Reductions required.
I do agree that the Valiant should have some sort of melee option for that Harpoon. Or maybe the ability to use it as a pistol in close combat at a weaker statline.
However, the Valiant is not just its harpoon. It's not just its Conflagration cannon either. Comparing it to the Castellan, both have the missiles and shoulder cannons and both have the 4 melta guns as well. You say that the harpoon is useless turn one on the Valiant. Well, the melta guns are useless on the Castellan through the entire game if you're playing it right. 4 Melta guns have a higher chance to hit than the harpoon, there being 4 of them after all, and could potentially do much more damage than the harpoon with some decent hits and wounds. Up close and personal, where the Valiant wants to be, you might even get into half-range of those melta guns on your target.
But the Conflagration Cannon is truly where the Valiant shines. It's not just the 12" bubble of 'NOPE' for the harpoon, its' an 18" bubble of DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT. Like I said before, it denies one of the greatest weaknesses of Knights: no save in close combat. Try to charge a Valiant. 3d6 auto hits will guarantee that you're taking wounds before getting in. 2 damage and -2 save means even the toughest infantry are going to lose models before they get in to start swinging. Couple that with Hawkshroud and their stratagem and you can overwatch on behalf of a vulnerable Crusader and annihilate even beefier things like Wraithknights and Dreadnoughts.
More importantly, and more strategically, the Valiant forces a style of play that's better for competitive tournaments: Moving up and taking objectives. There's a tendency for ranged knights to sit back in a lane of fire and just shoot at whatever's visible, and that's fine and all, but when it comes to winning games, holding objectives and denying them to your opponent is much more important. This is where the Valiant shines. That 18" range DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT bubble turns into a 36+" area of denial (plus the size of the base). Knights have big enough bases that they can completely deny an objective to a group of troops, and the Valiant can single-handedly clear off an objective, a thing that it can do because it moves up and gets into the thick of it, where it wants to be, where a Castellan is going to be too afraid to get into.
casvalremdeikun wrote: The thing is, 600 pts for a NOPE bubble is absurdly overpriced. The flamer is great, don't get me wrong. But, the Harpoon is lackluster. Maybe if it was a melee weapon too (complete with a bonus to hit so the Valiant doesn't suck in melee). And maybe if it had a more unified role, it would be better. If they wanted it to hunt hordes, make both of its weapons work toward that. I dunno. Schizo has never really worked great in 40K.
But really, tell me you don't like the idea of the Valiant swinging that Harpoon around like a flail.
I will still paint my Valiant up nice. But I don't think it will ever see play at its points level. Reductions required.
I do agree that the Valiant should have some sort of melee option for that Harpoon. Or maybe the ability to use it as a pistol in close combat at a weaker statline.
Why give something that can fall back and then shoot and charge a pistol?
However, the Valiant is not just its harpoon. It's not just its Conflagration cannon either. Comparing it to the Castellan, both have the missiles and shoulder cannons and both have the 4 melta guns as well. You say that the harpoon is useless turn one on the Valiant. Well, the melta guns are useless on the Castellan through the entire game if you're playing it right. 4 Melta guns have a higher chance to hit than the harpoon, there being 4 of them after all, and could potentially do much more damage than the harpoon with some decent hits and wounds. Up close and personal, where the Valiant wants to be, you might even get into half-range of those melta guns on your target.
.
If you play it right castellan is moving forward and thus will get into melta right. You think because castellan has long range it has to stay far. Wrong. It dmesn't gain anything by staying far. Thus right play is move forward
My question is what House/relics/Stratagems would be best for the Castellan ?
My thoughts were House: Hawkshroud for the Double Characteristics. Relic would be Cawls Wrath for the better Plasma Decimator.
I am also on the fence if i need to put the relic on the Commander to regain CP or do i make the Castellan Warlord and give him Ion Bulwark ?
Are there better ways to run the Single Castellan and more CP efficient ?
My question is what House/relics/Stratagems would be best for the Castellan ?
My thoughts were House: Hawkshroud for the Double Characteristics. Relic would be Cawls Wrath for the better Plasma Decimator.
I am also on the fence if i need to put the relic on the Commander to regain CP or do i make the Castellan Warlord and give him Ion Bulwark ?
Are there better ways to run the Single Castellan and more CP efficient ?
You're not getting 3CP for merely having one big knight, you still need to fill out the Super heavy detachment. You can take a single knight but then it is in a super heavy auxiliary detachment and you get no CP and lose out on household traditions. As for the best fit for the Castellan?
Questor mechanicus aligned so you can take the relic plasma but other than that there a few decent fits. Vulker for somewhat easy reroll 1's and a good stratagem for 1 CP. Raven for extra speed and a great stratagem. Taranis for durability and zombieknights (apparently a thing now haha). House krast has a good warlord trait that helps out a lot with shooty knights. I think there's a decent argument for each and every one of them but I suggest you plop in two armigers so you get the traditions and 3CP, then maybe house raven is a bit more tempting?
Wulfey wrote: I vote for house RAVEN with castellan and 2 armigers. 4++ and Cawl's wrath on the castellan.
Agreed, pop the Raven Stratagem to reroll all your 1s and you will have glorious firepower. The 4++ will help keep it alive a little bit longer and as a Mechanicus, you can always play "Machine Spirit Resurgent" if your opponent weakens it but doesn't manage to finish it off.
Kommissar Kel wrote: Any way for you to find 42 points(maybe downgrade from crusader to warden or errant)?
A Techpriest Enginseer can really help keep your Castellan alive or close to full power.
I've thought about and it would be ok i think if i was running AdMech instead of AM. The thing is i think the Castellan will be nuked heavily so repairing 1 or even 3w a turn won't cut it. I'll be using the Mechanicus Machine Spirit Resurgent stratagem instead to go top tier when needed.
Agreed, Knights usually take so many wounds per turn that an extra one here or there is rarely enough to make a difference. Perhaps every once in a while it will mean your opponent has to dedicate another unit to finishing it off but not often enough be worth it is my gut instinct.
D3 per turn would be more worth it but I can see that would maybe be a bit OP if techmarines could heal knights as they could actually keep up with a knight.
Keep in mind that because of how Heirlooms of the Household and Exalted Court are worded, Cerastus class Knights can't get WL traits or relics unless they themselves are the Warlord. Seems like an oversight on GW's part that could be fixed by simply changing it to Imperial Knights Titanic model. Once they get that fixed up though, I'm definitely gonna consider a Knight Atrapos to swap out for my Warden every once in a while in my lists.
However, the Valiant is not just its harpoon. It's not just its Conflagration cannon either. Comparing it to the Castellan, both have the missiles and shoulder cannons and both have the 4 melta guns as well. You say that the harpoon is useless turn one on the Valiant. Well, the melta guns are useless on the Castellan through the entire game if you're playing it right. 4 Melta guns have a higher chance to hit than the harpoon, there being 4 of them after all, and could potentially do much more damage than the harpoon with some decent hits and wounds. Up close and personal, where the Valiant wants to be, you might even get into half-range of those melta guns on your target.
.
If you play it right castellan is moving forward and thus will get into melta right. You think because castellan has long range it has to stay far. Wrong. It dmesn't gain anything by staying far. Thus right play is move forward
Exactly. The Castellan can sit back and blast away, but it doesn't need to. The Valiant MUST get in close to do its job. The Castellan is much more flexible in terms of what it can do.
However, the Valiant is not just its harpoon. It's not just its Conflagration cannon either. Comparing it to the Castellan, both have the missiles and shoulder cannons and both have the 4 melta guns as well. You say that the harpoon is useless turn one on the Valiant. Well, the melta guns are useless on the Castellan through the entire game if you're playing it right. 4 Melta guns have a higher chance to hit than the harpoon, there being 4 of them after all, and could potentially do much more damage than the harpoon with some decent hits and wounds. Up close and personal, where the Valiant wants to be, you might even get into half-range of those melta guns on your target.
.
If you play it right castellan is moving forward and thus will get into melta right. You think because castellan has long range it has to stay far. Wrong. It dmesn't gain anything by staying far. Thus right play is move forward
Exactly. The Castellan can sit back and blast away, but it doesn't need to. The Valiant MUST get in close to do its job. The Castellan is much more flexible in terms of what it can do.
Here's the thing though, the Castellan's weapons lean towards an anti-tank role. Plus, you'll always want to overcharge that plasma decimator in order to get the extra damage against most targets. If you're shooting it at infantry, you're wasting the plasma decimator. The Knights codex has plenty of much cheaper ways to take care of tanks, but the Valiant helps fill the role of anti-infantry with 3d6 auto hits. It also takes care of fliers and pesky eldar shenanigans as well. The Castellan's two weapons combined get 3d6 hits that you then need to roll to hit for. On average, the Castellan may do more /damage/, but the Valiant is going to get more wounds through and kill more troops to clear off objectives. The Valiant also serves as a fantastic anti-charge and anti-flyer model.
But hey, the Castellan is good too, I guess... but you're paying TEN WHOLE MORE POINTS for it over the Valiant. Just fyi.
The thing is, I can take a Crusader with a Battle Cannon and whatever Carapace weapon I want, still spend like 75-100 pts less than a Valiant, and have just as good or better anti-infantry shooting. Plus it accesses better or cheaper Strategems (1CP Rotate Ion Shields rather than 3CP). I am not saying the Valiant is crap. It isn't. It is just woefully overpriced for what it does. If it had a price reduction, I wouldn't even hesitate to take it. Or if it could move faster, was better in CC, or SOMETHING that set it apart from, IMO, better options for Anti-Infantry.
That and the Harpoon definitely looks like it should be a flail.
Anyway, I am done with this argument for now. My Valiant (yup, I bought the one I like less because it is so much cooler looking in concept, plus HARPOON!) will get built and hope for some day where I actually want to use it. I have five Questoris Class Knights to choose from in the meantime and two of each type of Armiger (the Helverins grew on me enough to buy a box of them).
I will say I had my Knight Warden (sporting a 3++ against shooting) smoke a valiant. Everything but a shield breaker bounced off of the ion shield. Got the charge in... Again the flamer didn't do much. Then it got tore a new one with the paragon gauntlet in one round. That gauntlet is MEAN. 8 wounds with each connection is nice.
I really feel like the warden is still very much a viable Knight that can deal with big and small very well.
That same Warden proceeded to stomp around the rest of his guardsmen the rest of the game. That guy swung WELL above his weight class and that hawshroud kept him chugging along when it was injured.
Smotejob wrote: I will say I had my Knight Warden (sporting a 3++ against shooting) smoke a valiant. Everything but a shield breaker bounced off of the ion shield. Got the charge in... Again the flamer didn't do much. Then it got tore a new one with the paragon gauntlet in one round. That gauntlet is MEAN. 8 wounds with each connection is nice.
I really feel like the warden is still very much a viable Knight that can deal with big and small very well.
That same Warden proceeded to stomp around the rest of his guardsmen the rest of the game. That guy swung WELL above his weight class and that hawshroud kept him chugging along when it was injured.
Made me a believer
The Warden, IMO, is the best all-around Knight. Especially when equipped with a Stormspear. There aren't many targets in the game that it can't deal with.
Smotejob wrote: I will say I had my Knight Warden (sporting a 3++ against shooting) smoke a valiant. Everything but a shield breaker bounced off of the ion shield. Got the charge in... Again the flamer didn't do much. Then it got tore a new one with the paragon gauntlet in one round. That gauntlet is MEAN. 8 wounds with each connection is nice.
I really feel like the warden is still very much a viable Knight that can deal with big and small very well.
That same Warden proceeded to stomp around the rest of his guardsmen the rest of the game. That guy swung WELL above his weight class and that hawshroud kept him chugging along when it was injured.
Made me a believer
Glad to hear that
Planning on running mine in a similar fashion as it gives you flexible knights that take aome damaging before the effects start to show.
Smotejob wrote: I will say I had my Knight Warden (sporting a 3++ against shooting) smoke a valiant. Everything but a shield breaker bounced off of the ion shield. Got the charge in... Again the flamer didn't do much. Then it got tore a new one with the paragon gauntlet in one round. That gauntlet is MEAN. 8 wounds with each connection is nice.
I really feel like the warden is still very much a viable Knight that can deal with big and small very well.
That same Warden proceeded to stomp around the rest of his guardsmen the rest of the game. That guy swung WELL above his weight class and that hawshroud kept him chugging along when it was injured.
Made me a believer
Glad to hear that
Planning on running mine in a similar fashion as it gives you flexible knights that take aome damaging before the effects start to show.
I’m also a big fan of the Warden, perhaps with a fist. The Paragon Gauntlet is certainly really good.
I’m looking at two versions of my army at 1750, which are subtly different. Both contain a Castellan and two warglaives. With them I can either have two wardens, or a warden, errant and ironstorm rocket pod. I’d give one of the Questoris guys a fist, regardless.
Basically the point is that a Warden costs the same amount as an Errant and an ironstorm. Which of those is better? I’m leaning towards the Warden I think, given that I’ve got a Castellan (and close combat) for any big stuff.
What's the best loadout for a TAC Warden? I've been thinking of a Krast Warden with Endless Fury, rerolling failed hits in the fight phase to make up for hitting on 4+ with the Thunderstrike Gauntlet and Endless Fury for better anti-infantry/light vehicles. Raven Warden with a Paragon Gauntlet/Endless Fury looks good as well for better mobility and Raven benefits my Helverins way more than Krast. Any opinions?
Roflstomped a chaos list by turn 2 without losing a single model
Brief summary.
Turn 1 opponent starts Moves mortarion.... psychic phase dumps blades of putrefaction with a strategem so mortarion can get quicktime. Manifests quicktime 19" away from my front line I pop "steel Mind, Iron logic" to negate it, roll a 4. Mortarion is stopped dead. failed to move the cultists and nothing else can shoot ends turn. On my turn I focus fire poor morty and wipe him out of existence .... warglaives kill two of the rinos and marines with putrefiers pop out.
turn 2 shooting for the opponent went well between blight grenades that did mortals on 5+ with the blight grenade strat, took my warlord down a bit, CC phase he was taken down a bit more by the prince and a lord, returns the favor by killing the plauge marines and death gripping the daemon prince to death(this may have been in my turn i don't remember)
Turn 2 shooting for me .... well by the end after both knights had had their way with plauge marines in CC from my opponents turn and after my shooting and cc phase he had cultists left, all his characters were dead, one rhino with plauge marines, and some pox walkers. and conceded the match. Left me without having lost a single model.
Eldarain wrote: What is "Steel Mind Iron Logic"? sounds solid.
Steel Mind, Iron Logic: Use this Stratagem when an enemy PSYKER manifests a psychic power within 24" of one or more of your GRAIA INFANTRY units. Roll a D6; on a 4+, that psychic power is resisted and its effects are negated.
Yeah, my own little forgeworld of Graia that was fairly rare pre knight codex is going to be a lot more popular I think.
It's a shame that the valiant harpoon doesn't do anything in close combat, I would like it if it had the same stats as a chainsword roughly but you get to make 2 additional attacks with it everytime you fight. So realistically you'll only get one hit but then it's doing something at least. I do think the flamer could be really solid if all you face are alaitoc eldar though (like me basically), those -3 hemlocks are just a pain to actually shoot down so BBQ'ing them would be incredibly satisfying even if it might not be points efficient in the end..
PiñaColada wrote: Yeah, my own little forgeworld of Graia that was fairly rare pre knight codex is going to be a lot more popular I think.
It's a shame that the valiant harpoon doesn't do anything in close combat, I would like it if it had the same stats as a chainsword roughly but you get to make 2 additional attacks with it everytime you fight. So realistically you'll only get one hit but then it's doing something at least. I do think the flamer could be really solid if all you face are alaitoc eldar though (like me basically), those -3 hemlocks are just a pain to actually shoot down so BBQ'ing them would be incredibly satisfying even if it might not be points efficient in the end..
yeah. For straight admech stygies or mars may be better but for the utility. I think graia and knights compliment each other well.
gendoikari87 wrote: Roflstomped a chaos list by turn 2 without losing a single model
Brief summary.
Turn 1 opponent starts Moves mortarion.... psychic phase dumps blades of putrefaction with a strategem so mortarion can get quicktime. Manifests quicktime 19" away from my front line I pop "steel Mind, Iron logic" to negate it, roll a 4. Mortarion is stopped dead. failed to move the cultists and nothing else can shoot ends turn. On my turn I focus fire poor morty and wipe him out of existence .... warglaives kill two of the rinos and marines with putrefiers pop out.
turn 2 shooting for the opponent went well between blight grenades that did mortals on 5+ with the blight grenade strat, took my warlord down a bit, CC phase he was taken down a bit more by the prince and a lord, returns the favor by killing the plauge marines and death gripping the daemon prince to death(this may have been in my turn i don't remember)
Turn 2 shooting for me .... well by the end after both knights had had their way with plauge marines in CC from my opponents turn and after my shooting and cc phase he had cultists left, all his characters were dead, one rhino with plauge marines, and some pox walkers. and conceded the match. Left me without having lost a single model.
Good to see your Graia doing the Omnissiah‘s work. How did you find the sniper rangers? Did they pull their weight?
The transuranic arquebus? yes, no, maybe, they were okay. really only did 1 damage to morty and a few to a biologus putrefier. The troops themselves however were invaluable to thanks to the strategem.
I feel like more squads of greater mobility is the way to go with Graia. Have some vanguards with a plasma, some basic rangers (with a arc rifle or two maybe) just so you can spread that 24" deny bubble a bit. Also helps with holding objectives. That's how I'll try and run them anyways, as soon as my new knights are up and running
I didnt manage to get the codex yet so can someone clarify this?
Is is not possible to assign a knight as warlord or give heirlooms in a super heavy auxilary detachment?
You can make that knight a warlord (for trait purposes) through the exalted court stratagem at the very least. Or make him a character and give him a relic through the heirlooms stratagem. Or you can do both obviously. I'm not sure if he can become a warlord without exalted court, since that's a perk you get through the super heavy detachment.
I didnt manage to get the codex yet so can someone clarify this?
Is is not possible to assign a knight as warlord or give heirlooms in a super heavy auxilary detachment?
You can make that knight a warlord (for trait purposes) through the exalted court stratagem at the very least. Or make him a character and give him a relic through the heirlooms stratagem. Or you can do both obviously. I'm not sure if he can become a warlord without exalted court, since that's a perk you get through the super heavy detachment.
Couldn't you make him a Character through Heirlooms and then make him your Warlord?
Warlord he can be made anyway. But is strategem done before or after warlord pick? And if after does it gain strategem post-fact when it gains character status
I didnt manage to get the codex yet so can someone clarify this?
Is is not possible to assign a knight as warlord or give heirlooms in a super heavy auxilary detachment?
You can make that knight a warlord (for trait purposes) through the exalted court stratagem at the very least. Or make him a character and give him a relic through the heirlooms stratagem. Or you can do both obviously. I'm not sure if he can become a warlord without exalted court, since that's a perk you get through the super heavy detachment.
Couldn't you make him a Character through Heirlooms and then make him your Warlord?
I don't know, I guess? This is too much in the nitty-gritty for me to answer. Had you phrased that question as a statement I would've believed you.
I didnt manage to get the codex yet so can someone clarify this?
Is is not possible to assign a knight as warlord or give heirlooms in a super heavy auxilary detachment?
You can make that knight a warlord (for trait purposes) through the exalted court stratagem at the very least. Or make him a character and give him a relic through the heirlooms stratagem. Or you can do both obviously. I'm not sure if he can become a warlord without exalted court, since that's a perk you get through the super heavy detachment.
Couldn't you make him a Character through Heirlooms and then make him your Warlord?
You can't retrospectively be given a trait for becoming a charictor after being choosen as warlord.
Sequencing is you choose your warlord and if they are a charictor assign a warlord trait.
You can then play pre game strategums.
Intentionally No the exalted court strategum clearly states it can't be used as such.
Technically as GW rules are as water tight as a sieve yes, heirlooms could make him a chrictor then pic as warlord, but be prepaid to get called on cheesing.
It's why a lot of tournaments require warlord and relics to be fixed at list submission to prevent people cheesing the oh your X army I have a relic of +1 to wound against X army I'll spend a CP on that. As its a form of list tailoring by swapping relics.
Unlike Exalted Court, Heirlooms does not have any sort of sequencing other than "Use this Stratagem before the battle". So you absolutely can use it to make a Knight in your SH Aux a Character. Because they are a character, they can be made your Warlord, this gaining a Warlord Trait.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Unlike Exalted Court, Heirlooms does not have any sort of sequencing other than "Use this Stratagem before the battle". So you absolutely can use it to make a Knight in your SH Aux a Character. Because they are a character, they can be made your Warlord, this gaining a Warlord Trait.
The sequencing is in the BRB not the strategums, also the intention that your not allowed to use strategums to create charictors is clear from the wording.
But as I said GW rules writing is loose and woolly so as it doesn't explicitly state yes/no people will argue about it. If you pulled it on me at an event or such I'd definitely be asking for a judge as using pregame strategums before listbuilding activities definataly sounds like a cheesey move.
Hieirlooms will allow you to take your Aux knight as warlord.
Exalted court is specifically after warlord is chosen.
Heirlooms does not specify and makes the chosen knight(s) character.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ice_can: heirlooms is simply "before the battle begins" which includes before deployment and before choosing a warlord.
Even the tournament claims you are making can(and have to) account for using these types of strategems during list building(otherwise the tournaments you are going to never allow extra relics).
I'm really happy about the CP update. My hope is that with that fix, pure Knight lists are viable again.
After all, I won't be adding a battalion of space marines, astra militarum, adeptus mechanicus, or anything else... until sisters of battle get their release.
drbored wrote: I'm really happy about the CP update. My hope is that with that fix, pure Knight lists are viable again.
They totally are. Today I've played a game of 1500 point with 3 Knights: Castellan, Crusader and Warden and almost had enough CP for all shenanigans I wanted to perform .
Hi, EXALTED COURT - «Use this Stratagem before the battle, after you have chosen your Warlord.»
So... Does this call me to use the strategem immediately after choosing warlord or can I after or during the deployment?
UPD: The game begins when players start the Deployment step of a mission
I thought the great strategist would work for this strategem(((
Koatga wrote: Hi, EXALTED COURT - «Use this Stratagem before the battle, after you have chosen your Warlord.»
So... Does this call me to use the strategem immediately after choosing warlord or can I after or during the deployment?
You choose your warlord when you build your list per the BRB matched play rules. Everything else happens after that. For things that happen before the game, presumably you get to decide the order.
If running Terryn list with 3 Gallants & a Warden would you add Helverins or Warglaives? I have space for 3 of the Armigers (to get more CPs too) and my gut says go Warglaives, however as I have 3 melee Knights already is there more use in Helverins hanging back to stop DS behind etc & popping stuff with their effetive 74" range?
RAW is they are imperial knights with that faction keyword now,
and there was much rejoicing!
Too bad they still can't be given extra warlord traits/relics. Biggest hindrance if you are wanting to field the IGCP battery. Or want to have multiple FW knights with relic/Trait.
The rest of the top 8 IMPERIUM were all flavors of:
GUARD - battalion and lots of hellhounds
BLANGELS - 2x slamcaptain, 3x scouts
RAVEN - 1x castellan
The 1x RAVEN castellan is the new tournament meta. It dominates every other heavy tank out there. The hellhounds eat up everything with a strong negative modifier.
The rest of the top 8 IMPERIUM were all flavors of:
GUARD - battalion and lots of hellhounds
BLANGELS - 2x slamcaptain, 3x scouts
RAVEN - 1x castellan
The 1x RAVEN castellan is the new tournament meta. It dominates every other heavy tank out there. The hellhounds eat up everything with a strong negative modifier.
I'm not surprised by this at all. Knights with enough CP to operate are extremely scary, to the point where it seems unclear what kind of army counters them at all. I've heard people say hordes and "play the mission" but it seems like the knights are more likely to just kill you anyway. Nerfs incoming, boys.
I assume the Raven Castellan is probably given Exalted Court so that it becomes a character and gets the Ion Bulwark trait, plus it gets the relic plasma weapon for another 1CP?
ZergSmasher wrote: I assume the Raven Castellan is probably given Exalted Court so that it becomes a character and gets the Ion Bulwark trait, plus it gets the relic plasma weapon for another 1CP?
Probably. And you don't really need the Raven household traits for the Castellan, but its strategem order of companies is really powerful on a Castellan with that relic plasma weapon.
The rest of the top 8 IMPERIUM were all flavors of:
GUARD - battalion and lots of hellhounds
BLANGELS - 2x slamcaptain, 3x scouts
RAVEN - 1x castellan
The 1x RAVEN castellan is the new tournament meta. It dominates every other heavy tank out there. The hellhounds eat up everything with a strong negative modifier.
Minor correction - Brandon Grant’s winning list actually had bulk grub and no knights. The list attributed to him above list only one game (its last one), came in 6th and was run by William Farley
The rest of the top 8 IMPERIUM were all flavors of:
GUARD - battalion and lots of hellhounds BLANGELS - 2x slamcaptain, 3x scouts RAVEN - 1x castellan
The 1x RAVEN castellan is the new tournament meta. It dominates every other heavy tank out there. The hellhounds eat up everything with a strong negative modifier.
Minor correction - Brandon Grant’s winning list actually had bulk grub and no knights. The list attributed to him above list only one game (its last one), came in 6th and was run by William Farley
Alright, let me get the app upgrade and check. I am confident that knights were all over the top tables.
EDIT: Rank4 has the solo RAVEN castellan. Rank 5 was majority imperial knights. Two rank 6s were majority imperial knights.
One thing to temper this just a bit is to remember that this codex just dropped and knights are hardly a conventional codex to begin with. It's not unreasonable that we'll see a shell of knight lists dominating brackets for a month or two until people come to grips with them.
And before the inevitable "knights have been around since 8th dropped that doesn't mean anything", yeah, they've been around. However, they've not been nearly this good, and we have a variety of new types now. There's going to be an adjustment period. Don't get me wrong, they're definitely good, I just wouldn't be surprised if the knight wins start to taper off in a while.
I'm not surprised by this at all. Knights with enough CP to operate are extremely scary, to the point where it seems unclear what kind of army counters them at all. I've heard people say hordes and "play the mission" but it seems like the knights are more likely to just kill you anyway. Nerfs incoming, boys.
Properly made ork horde has so many bodies even 4 crusaders will struggle to clear them all even if they get to charge them every round and obviously if that doesnt' happen and lose on those 12 stomps per knight per turn even more so. Orks of course will avoid giving you free stomps. Heaven forbid if orks actually go first. You could be facing having to kill 90 pts grot units that will form up 60" wide wall front of your knights preventing you from getting past your DZ quickly thus making hard to a) reach objectives b) get those stomps into ork boyz.
And crusader seems like most point efficient anti-horde knight knights have. Castellan meanwhile orks pretty much laugh at. Very inefficient against ork army with their 200-250+ models.
Now albeit orks might have to adjust a bit and for example AVOID close combat. Don't charge, fall back when getting charged. Sure you struggle to kill them. But point is to keep your boyz alive longer by denying stomp attacks(by not charging you save 24-30 attacks...) and just scoring objectives.
The rest of the top 8 IMPERIUM were all flavors of:
GUARD - battalion and lots of hellhounds
BLANGELS - 2x slamcaptain, 3x scouts
RAVEN - 1x castellan
The 1x RAVEN castellan is the new tournament meta. It dominates every other heavy tank out there. The hellhounds eat up everything with a strong negative modifier.
Minor correction - Brandon Grant’s winning list actually had bulk grub and no knights. The list attributed to him above list only one game (its last one), came in 6th and was run by William Farley
I'm assuming House Krast because of Cawl's wrath and the Krast Stratagem of re-roll 1's. It would make a lot of sense. I wonder why Krast for the other list though and what Traits, Relics they used.
MistaGav wrote: I'm assuming House Krast because of Cawl's wrath and the Krast Stratagem of re-roll 1's. It would make a lot of sense. I wonder why Krast for the other list though and what Traits, Relics they used.
I would assume Raven. Reroll 1's on everything strategem. Number of shots, to hit, to wound, damage...That thing on castellan is pure evil. With that blowing up repulsor and leman russ at once without even melta guns/shoulder guns/missile is not unfeasible.
I'm not surprised by this at all. Knights with enough CP to operate are extremely scary, to the point where it seems unclear what kind of army counters them at all. I've heard people say hordes and "play the mission" but it seems like the knights are more likely to just kill you anyway. Nerfs incoming, boys.
Properly made ork horde has so many bodies even 4 crusaders will struggle to clear them all even if they get to charge them every round and obviously if that doesnt' happen and lose on those 12 stomps per knight per turn even more so. Orks of course will avoid giving you free stomps. Heaven forbid if orks actually go first. You could be facing having to kill 90 pts grot units that will form up 60" wide wall front of your knights preventing you from getting past your DZ quickly thus making hard to a) reach objectives b) get those stomps into ork boyz.
And crusader seems like most point efficient anti-horde knight knights have. Castellan meanwhile orks pretty much laugh at. Very inefficient against ork army with their 200-250+ models.
Now albeit orks might have to adjust a bit and for example AVOID close combat. Don't charge, fall back when getting charged. Sure you struggle to kill them. But point is to keep your boyz alive longer by denying stomp attacks(by not charging you save 24-30 attacks...) and just scoring objectives.
The thing is what are the chances you encounter an ork player ?
Well its not much but it can still happen, now what are the chances that ork player has 250 painted models ?
For me it's already literally something I never witnessed in my 15 years of gaming. THEN that specific ork has to have a list that do good against knight and THEN has to go against you in a tournament, which put the likeliness of this happening pretty much near zero, as the few ork players I know dont bring their orks horde (much less than those 250 models mind you) at tournament given how weak ork sadly are, but simply bring other army.
I mean IK HAVE counters, but that specific Ork Horde player is basically one in a million, its not a "reliable" counter that is easily accessible to most popular tournament armies. If that counter is behind a 2 years Build / Paint session and isn't "good" by itself it, statistically, will never happen.
The thing is what are the chances you encounter an ork player ?
Well its not much but it can still happen, now what are the chances that ork player has 250 painted models ?
For me it's already literally something I never witnessed in my 15 years of gaming. THEN that specific ork has to have a list that do good against knight and THEN has to go against you in a tournament, which put the likeliness of this happening pretty much near zero, as the few ork players I know dont bring their orks horde (much less than those 250 models mind you) at tournament given how weak ork sadly are, but simply bring other army.
I mean IK HAVE counters, but that specific Ork Horde player is basically one in a million, its not a "reliable" counter that is easily accessible to most popular tournament armies. If that counter is behind a 2 years Build / Paint session and isn't "good" by itself it, statistically, will never happen.
Last tournament I went had 3 orks(me included) And if it's ork army you can be fairly sure it's boyz spam as 200+ models is pretty much only thing orks can field that can win.
And plaguebearer spam, cultist spam, even IG trooper spam.
MistaGav wrote: I'm assuming House Krast because of Cawl's wrath and the Krast Stratagem of re-roll 1's. It would make a lot of sense. I wonder why Krast for the other list though and what Traits, Relics they used.
I would assume Raven. Reroll 1's on everything strategem. Number of shots, to hit, to wound, damage...That thing on castellan is pure evil. With that blowing up repulsor and leman russ at once without even melta guns/shoulder guns/missile is not unfeasible.
Ohh yes I didn't even see that one. I'm getting my Stratagems mixed up from my Warlord traits and Houses and all sorts. That is a pretty nasty Stratagem!
MistaGav wrote: I'm assuming House Krast because of Cawl's wrath and the Krast Stratagem of re-roll 1's. It would make a lot of sense. I wonder why Krast for the other list though and what Traits, Relics they used.
I would assume Raven. Reroll 1's on everything strategem. Number of shots, to hit, to wound, damage...That thing on castellan is pure evil. With that blowing up repulsor and leman russ at once without even melta guns/shoulder guns/missile is not unfeasible.
Ohh yes I didn't even see that one. I'm getting my Stratagems mixed up from my Warlord traits and Houses and all sorts. That is a pretty nasty Stratagem!
Yeah it seems like tailor made for Castellan sporting Cawl's wrath. It just deletes vehicle or two per round plus whatever meltas and carapace weapons do.
The thing is what are the chances you encounter an ork player ?
Well its not much but it can still happen, now what are the chances that ork player has 250 painted models ?
For me it's already literally something I never witnessed in my 15 years of gaming. THEN that specific ork has to have a list that do good against knight and THEN has to go against you in a tournament, which put the likeliness of this happening pretty much near zero, as the few ork players I know dont bring their orks horde (much less than those 250 models mind you) at tournament given how weak ork sadly are, but simply bring other army.
I mean IK HAVE counters, but that specific Ork Horde player is basically one in a million, its not a "reliable" counter that is easily accessible to most popular tournament armies. If that counter is behind a 2 years Build / Paint session and isn't "good" by itself it, statistically, will never happen.
Last tournament I went had 3 orks(me included) And if it's ork army you can be fairly sure it's boyz spam as 200+ models is pretty much only thing orks can field that can win.
And plaguebearer spam, cultist spam, even IG trooper spam.
Yeah those things are possible, and might give knights a hard time. I do wonder how many of those lists are played, though, especially with the prevalence of chess clocks popping up and the general cracking down on slow play. Those armies are just harder to play quickly, though it can be done.
I think certain Tau and eldar lists might also have what it takes to kill knights somewhat consistantly. It just seems like an automatic uphill battle, and I'm not sure that IK being an army you just have to ignore and hope to win in the mission against fits with GWs design intentions.
That boild down to read the tourney pack - no chess clocks here- I think the answer for me is use your supporting detatachments to deal with hoards. 200+ model armies are rare for practical reasons.
I would be more concerned with THCC units which can stomp a knight
U02dah4 wrote: That boild down to read the tourney pack - no chess clocks here- I think the answer for me is use your supporting detatachments to deal with hoards. 200+ model armies are rare for practical reasons.
I would be more concerned with THCC units which can stomp a knight
Yes. Except knights can usually out run terminators. Needs to be a jump pack unit. Or something big n Scarry that can survive a round of shooting and fast enough to make it in.
Who fields terminators anyway? Credible TH threats will be jump pack captains. And those ARE credible threat. Couple of those make world of hurt. BA one will make short work of knight and top of that you can't even kill one before it charges and wrecks/kills a knight.
tneva82 wrote: Who fields terminators anyway? Credible TH threats will be jump pack captains. And those ARE credible threat. Couple of those make world of hurt. BA one will make short work of knight and top of that you can't even kill one before it charges and wrecks/kills a knight.
Vanguard Veterans are decent enough too. But yeah, an Angel's Wing TH Captain with Death Visions of Sanguinius will rock a Knight.
I just picked up the codex, a Cestellan and a box of Helverins last week. I happen to own an Errant that I ran on and off with my guard. So, yes, I haven't had a chance yet to do a deep dive into the codex and am still catching up on this thread a bit but I would like to know what people think would be a good compliment to what I've accumulated so far. I kinda like the Crusader for its gattling cannon. I also own a shadowsword which is just a beast on his own so there's that as a possibility.
This is what I'm leaning to right now list wise. I picked up the Elysians for the extra 5CP and the ability to deep strike and grab end of game objectives after, hopefully, the lion share of my opponents stuff id dead:
Super heavy detachment
Castellan
Errant
?? (Crusader?)
Helverin
Helverin
Elysian Battalion
Company Commander
Company Commander
Infantry squad w/Plasmagun
Infantry squad w/Plasmagun
Infantry squad w/Plasmagun
necron99 wrote: I just picked up the codex, a Cestellan and a box of Helverins last week. I happen to own an Errant that I ran on and off with my guard. So, yes, I haven't had a chance yet to do a deep dive into the codex and am still catching up on this thread a bit but I would like to know what people think would be a good compliment to what I've accumulated so far. I kinda like the Crusader for its gattling cannon. I also own a shadowsword which is just a beast on his own so there's that as a possibility.
This is what I'm leaning to right now list wise. I picked up the Elysians for the extra 5CP and the ability to deep strike and grab end of game objectives after, hopefully, the lion share of my opponents stuff id dead:
Super heavy detachment
Castellan
Errant
?? (Crusader?)
Helverin
Helverin
Elysian Battalion
Company Commander
Company Commander
Infantry squad w/Plasmagun
Infantry squad w/Plasmagun
Infantry squad w/Plasmagun
If you’re only after the gatling cannon, then I’d go with the Warden and save yourself some points to put elsewhere.
If you have nowhere better the spend the points, stick with the Crusaders.
I kinda want the gattling for ranged hoard control. I'd take two gattling's on a warden if I could. I just don't see knights as wanting to be in cc. Titanic feet are nice and I guess once you've taken out all of the hardened targets with your big guns you gotta go deal with the little squishy guys
Too bad they still can't be given extra warlord traits/relics. Biggest hindrance if you are wanting to field the IGCP battery. Or want to have multiple FW knights with relic/Trait.
How come they cannot? the FAQ specifically outlined that they gain all the same keywords (questoris allegiances, imperial knights, must ect.) as present in the new codex
Knights(with a melee arm) in CC with vehicles is never a bad idea; you just have to find a way to get them there.
A warden is pretty good at that and saves 41, 46, 69, or 74 points(all of which could go into a carapace weapon to help add long range firepower), depending on which crusader gun you are fielding and/or if you take a guantlet over a reaper.
But you do have an errant so if you have the points a crusader is not a bad idea either; I also prefer Thermal cannon on the Crusader because of points cost and complimentary range to the Gatling cannon, points save can pay for a storm spear for longer range AT/heavy inf, or an Iron storm for very long range chaff and added gear to supporting units.
Too bad they still can't be given extra warlord traits/relics. Biggest hindrance if you are wanting to field the IGCP battery. Or want to have multiple FW knights with relic/Trait.
How come they cannot? the FAQ specifically outlined that they gain all the same keywords (questoris allegiances, imperial knights, must ect.) as present in the new codex
Strategems specifically call questor/dominus class. So no those for armigers either. Now maybe i misremember but did fw knights get either of those?
Too bad they still can't be given extra warlord traits/relics. Biggest hindrance if you are wanting to field the IGCP battery. Or want to have multiple FW knights with relic/Trait.
How come they cannot? the FAQ specifically outlined that they gain all the same keywords (questoris allegiances, imperial knights, must ect.) as present in the new codex
Strategems specifically call questor/dominus class. So no those for armigers either. Now maybe i misremember but did fw knights get either of those?
you are talking about two different things now.. before you stated they couldnt take relics or WL traits.
I think it is quite clear already that if a strategem or rule specifically says "dominus class only" it wont work on questoris, or cerastus, or the armigers.
But you stated that warlord traits and relics can not be used by FW knights, when to all indications, this is simply not the case.
(PS yes, all the questor class FW knights did in fact gain questor keyword fyi)
tneva82 wrote: Yeah well okay you can use them but can't give. Gg
Not to mention i specified EXTRA traits and relics. Ain't my fault lf you can't be bothered to read
Again, can you provide a *reason* why you cannot give a forgeworld questoris class knight the exact same treatment as a GW questoris class knight? (IE extra traits and relics) the FAQ has already granted all the proper key words that were missing before.
There does not appear to be a single rule or keyword different between the two, so why are you insisting they be treated differently?
tneva82 wrote: Yeah well okay you can use them but can't give. Gg
Not to mention i specified EXTRA traits and relics. Ain't my fault lf you can't be bothered to read
Again, can you provide a *reason* why you cannot give a forgeworld questoris class knight the exact same treatment as a GW questoris class knight? (IE extra traits and relics) the FAQ has already granted all the proper key words that were missing before.
There does not appear to be a single rule or keyword different between the two, so why are you insisting they be treated differently?
Because the stratagems specifically do not include Acastus Class or Cerastus Class.
You can use the stratagems on Questoris Knight Magaera and Questoris Knight Styrix though... But, i don't see anyone normally running either of these 2 Knights over the standard Knights - at least competitively.
You can use the stratagems on Questoris Knight Magaera and Questoris Knight Styrix though... But, i don't see anyone normally running either of these 2 Knights over the standard Knights - at least competitively.
They have their niche with the cool factor, but yes, that is exactly what I am getting at, nothing about being a FW/GW matters, only the class of knight matters.
my meta is pretty loaded with Dark Eldar players so i try to build lists that arent overly CP dependant. How would someone run a Single Knight (i run a Castellan) that would be the least CP dependant ?
I still think that burning the 2 CP for +1 invuln and the relic plasma is a must. So Mechanicus is a must. After that. im not so sure if its a must.. other than 1 round of rotate shields. or a +1 to shoot/wound
You can use the stratagems on Questoris Knight Magaera and Questoris Knight Styrix though... But, i don't see anyone normally running either of these 2 Knights over the standard Knights - at least competitively.
They have their niche with the cool factor, but yes, that is exactly what I am getting at, nothing about being a FW/GW matters, only the class of knight matters.
Okay so there was 2 knights with right keywords. Point was pretty much all FW knights don't have that class as they are cerestus knights. So sligh error. Forgot the tiny minority of FW knights rarely are even used. Point is 99% of FW knights that see us can't be given extra traits/relis.
zedsdead wrote: my meta is pretty loaded with Dark Eldar players so i try to build lists that arent overly CP dependant. How would someone run a Single Knight (i run a Castellan) that would be the least CP dependant ?
I still think that burning the 2 CP for +1 invuln and the relic plasma is a must. So Mechanicus is a must. After that. im not so sure if its a must.. other than 1 round of rotate shields. or a +1 to shoot/wound
Take House Vulker SHD Castellan with Relic Plasma, Ion Bulwark WT and 2x Helverins.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Games Workshops cunning plan is obvious
1. Release Knights, make everyone scramble for counters
2. Release new codex's with superior melee counters GSC, Wulfen
3. Release counter to all in 2019 with cheap Sisters flamer/melta everywhere.
4. ...
5. Profit.
1. Release Knights, make everyone scramble for counters
2. Release new codex's with superior melee counters GSC, Wulfen
3. Release counter to all in 2019 with cheap Sisters flamer/melta everywhere.
4. ...
5. Profit.
This guy gets it...
I am surprised not more people take advantage of the styrix's 4++ (5++ in melee) as a melee bruiser/tank... re gen a wound each turn on a 5+ is nice. The ranged damage isnt as good as a regular questoris, but its a trade off for durability.
In a lone knight supported by admech sort of role they seem to always take a tonne of firepower to take out, have a couple tech priests near and it can get ridiculous.
Okay will be taking knights out for first time tomorrow. Original plan had been knight + IG ally for some CP but with FAQ changes figured I'll try out full knights instead. If nothing else get to try out all new toys I have!
So 2 detachments. I figured I want to deploy helverins separately. Probably on flanks with armiger leading the way with errant forming up front line. Crusader and castellan follow up. Could put helverins on 1 choise but I think 6 deployments will give me +1 anyway and with extra cheap drop maybe get to see SOMETHING of real deployment before putting big boys.
Wondering if I should get more relics or more likely extra warlord trait or start with 8 CP. Land strider for errant might not be worst ideas out there. 12"+d6"+2" movement and shooting at full speed could be fairly useful ability. Maybe decide when starting up game.
And now we have even more knights coming soon from FW to shake it up. Can't wait to see what new Armiger and Dominus variants they come up with!
I think pure-knights lists are going to become even more viable. Yeah, Orks, Space Wolves, and GSC being melee-based is going to cramp our style, but that just means we need cheap screens.
drbored wrote: And now we have even more knights coming soon from FW to shake it up. Can't wait to see what new Armiger and Dominus variants they come up with!
I think pure-knights lists are going to become even more viable. Yeah, Orks, Space Wolves, and GSC being melee-based is going to cramp our style, but that just means we need cheap screens.
Oh man, the FW preview. I really love their alternate parts - I have all the heads! I am hopeful they make the Dominus and Armigers look good. I really don't dig them but a Castellan seems like a no-brainer, especially for Mech houses.
Here is my current build list for a pure-Knight army. I need to get the silly little bebe Knights.
Spoiler:
House Raven SHD +3CP
Knight Warden
Avenger, HF, HS, Reaper, Stormspear
Iron Bulwark
[456]
1. Release Knights, make everyone scramble for counters
2. Release new codex's with superior melee counters GSC, Wulfen
3. Release counter to all in 2019 with cheap Sisters flamer/melta everywhere.
4. ...
5. Profit.
This guy gets it...
I am surprised not more people take advantage of the styrix's 4++ (5++ in melee) as a melee bruiser/tank... re gen a wound each turn on a 5+ is nice. The ranged damage isnt as good as a regular questoris, but its a trade off for durability.
In a lone knight supported by admech sort of role they seem to always take a tonne of firepower to take out, have a couple tech priests near and it can get ridiculous.
Well you can get hold of a standard knight for £50-60 your paying double for one of these
And on the field yes its tankier with less firepower but its also 10% more expensive i mean a galant is 150ish cheaper
I would assume Raven. Reroll 1's on everything strategem. Number of shots, to hit, to wound, damage...That thing on castellan is pure evil. With that blowing up repulsor and leman russ at once without even melta guns/shoulder guns/missile is not unfeasible.
Ohh yes I didn't even see that one. I'm getting my Stratagems mixed up from my Warlord traits and Houses and all sorts. That is a pretty nasty Stratagem!
Yeah it seems like tailor made for Castellan sporting Cawl's wrath. It just deletes vehicle or two per round plus whatever meltas and carapace weapons do.
Pretty good on the Crusader too. All of a sudden, the RFBC doesn't look so shabby.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: Last tournament I went had 3 orks(me included) And if it's ork army you can be fairly sure it's boyz spam as 200+ models is pretty much only thing orks can field that can win.
And plaguebearer spam, cultist spam, even IG trooper spam.
This is what worries me slightly about Knights, they seem really strong against balanced or elite-heavy list but will struggle against hordes. I would prefer armies to be balanced so that any decently balanced army will stand a fair chance based on the skill of the player and luck of the dice. Relying on the meta to balance Knights in a rock-paper-scissors fashion is going to lead to extremely unsatisfying games.
zedsdead wrote: my meta is pretty loaded with Dark Eldar players so i try to build lists that arent overly CP dependant. How would someone run a Single Knight (i run a Castellan) that would be the least CP dependant ?
I still think that burning the 2 CP for +1 invuln and the relic plasma is a must. So Mechanicus is a must. After that. im not so sure if its a must.. other than 1 round of rotate shields. or a +1 to shoot/wound
Go House Raven. The movement benefits are huge for any Knight, and any Warlord trait and relic you it will be additional benefits you don’t have to spend CP on during the game.
So speaking of Elite, I would LOVE to use Elites and more Elites with my army. I was thinking:
Astra Militarum Battalion CP Battery (this thing is almost mandatory)
Custodes Outrider Detachment
-1 HQ -3 squads of Jetbikes
-Vexilla with -1 to Hit buff
Super-Heavy Aux
-Knight Castellan (Raven) with Cawl's Wrath and Ion Bulwark
You start with 9 CP and use 2 on the Knight, leaving you with 7. You're also not even at 2,000 points yet so you still have some wiggle room for more stuff.
What do you get out of a list like this?
ObSec: 3 squads of Infantry with objective secured plus 3 squads of SUPER fast and durable Jetbikes also with ObSec.
Anti-Horde: You have a minimum of 10 Hurricane Bolters. That's 60/120 S4 shots on a 14" Move platform.
Anti-Armor: It's a Knight Castellan with access to the 're-roll all 1's' stratagem. I think this basically explains itself.
CP Regen: With a Company Commander warlord, you get the 5+ regeneration. You even have Shoulder the Mantle should someone kill him for an objective point!
Durability: 43 T6 2+/4++ wounds, 28 T8 3+/5++ wounds, 30 wound of T3 fodder, plus some extra.
Melee Dominance: I mean, the Jetbikes are S6 and re-roll failed wounds on the Charge. At 1D3 damage apiece, they're gonna chew things apart.
zedsdead wrote: my meta is pretty loaded with Dark Eldar players so i try to build lists that arent overly CP dependant. How would someone run a Single Knight (i run a Castellan) that would be the least CP dependant ?
I still think that burning the 2 CP for +1 invuln and the relic plasma is a must. So Mechanicus is a must. After that. im not so sure if its a must.. other than 1 round of rotate shields. or a +1 to shoot/wound
Go House Raven. The movement benefits are huge for any Knight, and any Warlord trait and relic you it will be additional benefits you don’t have to spend CP on during the game.
SJ
He's asking for lone knight. That means aux detachment which means no house trait.
Raven is actually CP dependent because you need the 2 CP stratagem to allow you to reliably overcharge and to increase the consistency of the guns.
I prefer krast even though you don’t get the re-roll hits in combat trait because you can take a warlord trait that lets you re-roll ones to hit, and there’s nothing Vect can do about it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mini mini bat rep from this afternoon’s game:
Played my knights list, which consists of:
Spoiler:
IG Battalion
Primaris Psyker
Company Commander w/grand strategist, kurov’s
3 x 8 infantry, 1 mortar
This game wasn’t particularly exciting after I went first and dropped Magnus (just from the Shadowsword!). But it was interesting to see Morty nearly drop a knight in one round of combat! And that’s skullreaver daemon prince is terrifying!
Thoughts post game:
1) Buying a shadowsword. Immediately.
2) Machine spirit resurgent is just too good
3) I know some people are high on hawkshroud, but I get the hawkshroud bonus (when I need it on one knight) for 1 CP and then I can still use the Krast bonus all game long
4) Re-rolling hits in combat is so so good. And really necessary vs hordes and other things that give knights trouble
5) I know a lot of people like taking just the shooty knights, but I am not at all sad about using a warden for a cc weapon or just a straight up gallant. So so good when you need those weapons.
What do people think of my 1750 list? I want to go all Knights if possible, and with the changes to CP and FW Knights, this should work nicely I think.
Spoiler:
Household: Will try Raven first of all, but Hawkshroud is always looking nice as well. Relics will work for both.
2 Extra Heirlooms stratagem
Super Heavy Detachment:
Knight Lancer
Warlord trait: Ion Bulwark
Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion
Knight Gallant with Melta Gun and Stormspear Rocket Pod
Heirloom: Paragon Gauntlet
Knight Crusader with Heavy Stubber, Thermal Cannon, Avenger Cannon and Stormspear Rocket Pod
Heirloom: Endless Fury
2x Armiger Helverin with Heavy Stubber
This creates a very durable (2+ armour save, as well as a 4+ invul against both ranged and melee) Warlord that will go around killing big priority targets with the Gallant close behind, with fire support from the Crusader, as well as the Helverins that can act as objective holders also.
alleus wrote: What do people think of my 1750 list? I want to go all Knights if possible, and with the changes to CP and FW Knights, this should work nicely I think.
Spoiler:
Household: Will try Raven first of all, but Hawkshroud is always looking nice as well. Relics will work for both.
2 Extra Heirlooms stratagem
Super Heavy Detachment:
Knight Lancer
Warlord trait: Ion Bulwark
Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion
Knight Gallant with Melta Gun and Stormspear Rocket Pod
Heirloom: Paragon Gauntlet
Knight Crusader with Heavy Stubber, Thermal Cannon, Avenger Cannon and Stormspear Rocket Pod
Heirloom: Endless Fury
2x Armiger Helverin with Heavy Stubber
This creates a very durable (2+ armour save, as well as a 4+ invul against both ranged and melee) Warlord that will go around killing big priority targets with the Gallant close behind, with fire support from the Crusader, as well as the Helverins that can act as objective holders also.
How competitive do you want to be? If you drop the rocket pod and the armigers, you can get 2 guard battalions. Not only is that screening bodies and anti infantry weapons but it is also 10! more CP. 19 looks a lot nicer than 9 IMO.
That being said, if you want to go 100% pure knights, I’d go Krast over Raven. Re-rolls to hit in combat are just too nice
Competitive is fine, but flavour is more important to me. All Knights is such a cool concept, but I can definitely see myself adding some Guard battalions if I want to be more competitive.
Krast does look pretty good as well, especially since I'm using two melee Knights. Since the relics I'm using aren't locked to any Household or Loyalty, I can switch around and test a bunch of different traditions :-)
I think that when it comes to CP, there is such a thing as 'too many'. When games end by turn 3 or 4 (either because of tournament time limits or just because you or your opponent have already been tabled) there's only so much you can do. Assume 3 turns of Rotate Ion Shields, plus an extra CP for an extra relic, so ok, you've got 4 CP spent. Add a re-roll each turn and you're up to about 8. Do you really need 19? Add in a stratagem or two and really, 12 is probably all you need.
Funnily enough, you can get 12 CP just by making a normal 2k list with two superheavy detachments, one with 3 questoris and one with 1 questoris and 2 armigers.
At 1750 it gets a little tighter, but you can still get 9 cp in there with pure knights. If you really want to add a guard battalion, I feel that only 1 is necessary to get you up to 14.
Can you not take Armigers in a “Questor Mechanicus” detachment and gain the 3 CP? You won’t gain any House benefits, and you would have to gain stratagems from another detachment. But I think only “Imperial Knights” detachments have the restriction about the CPs.
Krand wrote: Can you not take Armigers in a “Questor Mechanicus” detachment and gain the 3 CP? You won’t gain any House benefits, and you would have to gain stratagems from another detachment. But I think only “Imperial Knights” detachments have the restriction about the CPs.
Thev are all imperial knights. Imperial knigh and questor imperials are differen things
Automatically Appended Next Post:
drbored wrote: I think that when it comes to CP, there is such a thing as 'too many'. When games end by turn 3 or 4 (either because of tournament time limits or just because you or your opponent have already been tabled) there's only so much you can do. Assume 3 turns of Rotate Ion Shields, plus an extra CP for an extra relic, so ok, you've got 4 CP spent. Add a re-roll each turn and you're up to about 8. Do you really need 19? Add in a stratagem or two and really, 12 is probably all you need.
Funnily enough, you can get 12 CP just by making a normal 2k list with two superheavy detachments, one with 3 questoris and one with 1 questoris and 2 armigers.
At 1750 it gets a little tighter, but you can still get 9 cp in there with pure knights. If you really want to add a guard battalion, I feel that only 1 is necessary to get you up to 14.
19 is just excessive, especially at 1750.
I just burned 8 cp ingame and would have desperately needed more. This without single rotate shield on castellan. Knights are cp hungry
drbored wrote: I think that when it comes to CP, there is such a thing as 'too many'. When games end by turn 3 or 4 (either because of tournament time limits or just because you or your opponent have already been tabled) there's only so much you can do. Assume 3 turns of Rotate Ion Shields, plus an extra CP for an extra relic, so ok, you've got 4 CP spent. Add a re-roll each turn and you're up to about 8. Do you really need 19? Add in a stratagem or two and really, 12 is probably all you need.
Funnily enough, you can get 12 CP just by making a normal 2k list with two superheavy detachments, one with 3 questoris and one with 1 questoris and 2 armigers.
At 1750 it gets a little tighter, but you can still get 9 cp in there with pure knights. If you really want to add a guard battalion, I feel that only 1 is necessary to get you up to 14.
19 is just excessive, especially at 1750.
Completely disagree with this. Remember that you’re likely spending 6 CP before the game starts on extra relics and warlord traits. So let’s say you or your opponent play slow and only get through 3 turns (rather unlikely with knights as they play pretty quickly, but for the sake of argument)
Turn 1: (yours) likely re-rolling something in the shooting phase, full tilting to get into combat after an advance, re-rolling a wound in the fight phase (4 CP)
Turn 1: (your opponent’s) re-roll invulnerable save, rotate ion shields (2 CP)
Rinse and repeat 2 more times, add in machine spirit resurgent, plus remember that if you’re a dominus knight, it costs 3 CP to rotate. You can rotate icon shields in CC if you have the sanctuary relic. If you have a dominus, you’re certainly going to want to use your shield breakers once or twice on characters. Want to death grip something with a good invuln? Oh don’t forget reliably exploding to dish out mortal wounds like crazy.
Tbh, I find that the guard battalion is necessary not only for the bodies but also for the extra cp relic and warlord trait. Knights just get exponentially better with stratagems because they are such a large portion of an army. They’re basically all mini Death Stars.
So in short, knights CAN be run without guard because they can get 9-12 CP on their own now. Most non-competitive armies lack the tools to deal with 4-5 knights, so yeah you can do fine without CP past turn 2 (because you won’t have any if you start with only 3-6 after relics and warlord traits). But tbh the stratagems are so cool and flavorful that I can’t imagine getting to turn 3 and running out of steam like that.
Played my first game with full knight army and with new toys. List was as I posted so castellan with 2 siege breakers, 4++ and cawl's wrath, crusader with thermal cannon and meltagun, errant with heavy stubber, 2 individual helverins and warglaive with meltagun. 2 raven detachments. Crusader got relic gatling gun so started with 8 CP. Oh and errant had warlord trait of 1 reroll and 1 CP so basically free one reroll(this is IMO one of the most silly traits. If you don't want to spend extra CP's for warlord traits you get one free reroll. If you take any other CP's you will then pay 1 CP for one reroll which is too expensive).
I was up against dark eldars with 3 or maybe 4 venoms with kabalites, huge 12 strong bike squad, couple HQ's, 3 cronos, 3 ravagers(one with dark lances, one with disintegrators, don't recall what other had). scourges with heat lances, scourges with haywires. Maybe something else. We played tactical gambit with vanquard deployment(the one where you are basically on quarters).
He deep striked bunch of stuff failing to regenerate CP's so after I had deployed my army all he had was warlord that went there to try CP regeneration. I got first turn but he seized. Drat. So basically he came forward fast and blew warglaive and hurt my crusader big time. To put theme to the game I failed 5 out of 7 4++ rolls. Gee. TYVM.
I circled around terrain hoping to do some hurt. I started shooting phase with raven strategem but annoyingly it was cancelled. BTW knights have precious few ways to prevent that. We have nothing really in before first shooting phase to draw it and it's first thing in shooting phase so I couldn't even tempt him to prevent something else in shooting. Not that we have anything he would want to prevent more than this...So castellan had to shoot without it. To ensure -1 to hit strategem wasn't going to screw me completely I split(plus besides otherwise soft targets so no point overkilling). I started with missile using strategem hoping to get rid of warlord. 1 to hit...Well drat. Command reroll. Hit. 1 to wound...Oh bummer.
Volcano lance against squadron of 3 cronos figuring that's good because each hit could kill one and as there's more less chance of hits going miss. It was that or ravagers but problem with ravagers would be due to terrain I was scarily close to the cronoses. Anyway moot point. 1 shot, hit, 1 wound...WTF?
At this point I was more than desperate so declaring overcharge with cawl's wrath it and the shoulder cannons I had assigned with it just to be safe fired at one ravager that blew up. Even this was BARELY as bad rolling and -1 to hit strategem played hurt me. Oh and 3 wounds to castellan for my trouble. 1 stinking ravager killed. I was hoping more.
Crusader fired at cronos. Think I Was too affraid though idea of letting them hit castellan was scary. Maybe they don't reach, maybe they might not hurt it. Either way didn't want to risk it. Thermal lance did good job killing 2(yey) but endless fury failed utterly to even hurt damn thing.
Errant failed to do anything and crusader's charge ate blaster for extra 6 damage and caused just 1 wound to biker. DRAT!
His 2nd turn scourges came in. One tried to hurt castellan for light effort, another wrecked helverin. In combat he wrecked poor crusader though only barely. Surviving cronos that had come to help just in case failed to actually hurt making me think I really overestimated them and wrecking jetbikes with endless fury would have been better.
By now VP's were 7-2 as he had better luck with them. Actually for next 2 turns I got NOTHING that I could even really hope to do...
My 2nd turn and it was Castellans shining moment. Moving up it triggered raven strategem and he had only 1 CP left so couldn't stop it. HAH! Splitting my guns to maximum effect volcano lance vaporized disintegrator ravager. 3 wounding hits, 9d3 damage rerolling 1's. BOOOM! Cawl's wrath blew out last ravager. BLAM! Shoulder guns(and missile which I wasted) dropped last cronos. And melta guns dropped venom that had came nearby to take objective. Now that's more like it!
Elsewhere errant moved forward not doing much with guns and trying to charge both bikes and venom(venom in case I roll short). I rolled short due to terrain -2 so went to venom instead destroying it and having it blow in face. Helverin charged(yes charged) scourges of mucha haywire mortal wounds failing to do anything.
Anyway rest of game was basically him hurting castellan slow and steady. Well actually steadily as my 4++ failed to work at all doing like 1 out of 6 saves. The way I Was rolling even rotating ion shield would have been useless piece of 3 CP wasted...Errant was tagged into combat with S5 bikes getting chipped steadily and prevented from getting out of combat so was stomping like crazy but 12 bikes with 6++ is surprisingly tough to clear away. Castellan managed to still finish off the scourges, cause 3 wounds to character that had come too far forward and kill bunch of other scourge unit before finally dying when 3 S8 d6 damage hits got in and I saved just 1. At this point with 20-3 vp's(I had stuff like hold 3 objectives(gee that's easy), defend objective 6(oh yeah that's the one as far from my units as possible behind big pile of dark eldars), kill character in h2h(yeah those that are behind huge pile of sacrificial minions) and have 3 units on my DZ with no enemy. Well by the time that got that was my entire army and there was scourge unit I was struggling to clear...TYVM!
That 1st turn hurt. Really hurt. He got to move boxing me in hurting objectives, he killed 1 knight and hurt 2nd with big pile of lousy saves and my return attack was pathetic due to some serious bad luck and mistarget with gatling gun...After that writing was on the wall. But at least castellan got to shine blowing whopping 4 units out out of the sky right away. Don't think I have ever managed to do that!
tneva82 wrote: Yeah well okay you can use them but can't give. Gg
Not to mention i specified EXTRA traits and relics. Ain't my fault lf you can't be bothered to read
Again, can you provide a *reason* why you cannot give a forgeworld questoris class knight the exact same treatment as a GW questoris class knight? (IE extra traits and relics) the FAQ has already granted all the proper key words that were missing before.
There does not appear to be a single rule or keyword different between the two, so why are you insisting they be treated differently?
Because the stratagems specifically do not include Acastus Class or Cerastus Class.
You can use the stratagems on Questoris Knight Magaera and Questoris Knight Styrix though... But, i don't see anyone normally running either of these 2 Knights over the standard Knights - at least competitively.
I haven’t seen them being used either but is that maybe because straight up nobody owns the models?
Styrix for 475 has a 4++, 5++ in close combat, take the regeneration relic, some sort of warlord trait like reroll 1s to hit or taranis, have an enginseer follow it around, who is going to kill that?
3x5 tacticals. 1 has heavy bolter, 1 has missile launcher.
6+5+3=14 CP. 7 CP for extra traits and relics so 7 left. Bit thin...
I will be moving in fast with 4 knights and slamguinus out there to give me something to deal with fliers and just wreck something tough if need be. On angel's wing strategem could be used but with thin CP's not automatic. Especially as he could die then. By not rushing alone he could be harder to deal easily with knights rampaging in.
Tacticals take objectives and they do give me chance to get some mortal wounds if need be though CP lack is hindrance.
CP issue could be eased by changing errant to a helverin and IGCP battery though that would require dropping warlord trait and relic from knights. Probably non-warlord warden would lose his. This way I would have 12 CP to begin with but one big knight would change to smaller one. Plus bunch of guys to hold objectives and screen.
Welll a castellan can potentially bait out AGENTS_OF_VECT if you use OATHBREAKER on something valuable first. Maybe he makes a mistake.
EDIT: yes, thanks for sharing. More castellan data is always good. My wallet is starting to burn. Commentary: as much as there is some resistance to allying up knights to guard, even Duncan himself runs 30 guardsmen as peasants next to his own house GRIFFITH army.
I haven’t seen them being used either but is that maybe because straight up nobody owns the models?
Styrix for 475 has a 4++, 5++ in close combat, take the regeneration relic, some sort of warlord trait like reroll 1s to hit or taranis, have an enginseer follow it around, who is going to kill that?
It is rumoured that the FW team will buff/lower pts cost on some of the "no one every takes these" guys....
If only a price decrease were as likely!
BUt as a tank the styrix I think is a bit under rated as you say, it doesnt work in pure knights, but a mech/knight list? lots of good synergy.
tneva82 wrote: Played my first game with full knight army and with new toys. List was as I posted so castellan with 2 siege breakers, 4++ and cawl's wrath, crusader with thermal cannon and meltagun, errant with heavy stubber, 2 individual helverins and warglaive with meltagun. 2 raven detachments. Crusader got relic gatling gun so started with 8 CP. Oh and errant had warlord trait of 1 reroll and 1 CP so basically free one reroll(this is IMO one of the most silly traits. If you don't want to spend extra CP's for warlord traits you get one free reroll. If you take any other CP's you will then pay 1 CP for one reroll which is too expensive).
I was up against dark eldars with 3 or maybe 4 venoms with kabalites, huge 12 strong bike squad, couple HQ's, 3 cronos, 3 ravagers(one with dark lances, one with disintegrators, don't recall what other had). scourges with heat lances, scourges with haywires. Maybe something else. We played tactical gambit with vanquard deployment(the one where you are basically on quarters).
He deep striked bunch of stuff failing to regenerate CP's so after I had deployed my army all he had was warlord that went there to try CP regeneration. I got first turn but he seized. Drat. So basically he came forward fast and blew warglaive and hurt my crusader big time. To put theme to the game I failed 5 out of 7 4++ rolls. Gee. TYVM.
I circled around terrain hoping to do some hurt. I started shooting phase with raven strategem but annoyingly it was cancelled. BTW knights have precious few ways to prevent that. We have nothing really in before first shooting phase to draw it and it's first thing in shooting phase so I couldn't even tempt him to prevent something else in shooting. Not that we have anything he would want to prevent more than this...So castellan had to shoot without it. To ensure -1 to hit strategem wasn't going to screw me completely I split(plus besides otherwise soft targets so no point overkilling). I started with missile using strategem hoping to get rid of warlord. 1 to hit...Well drat. Command reroll. Hit. 1 to wound...Oh bummer.
Volcano lance against squadron of 3 cronos figuring that's good because each hit could kill one and as there's more less chance of hits going miss. It was that or ravagers but problem with ravagers would be due to terrain I was scarily close to the cronoses. Anyway moot point. 1 shot, hit, 1 wound...WTF?
At this point I was more than desperate so declaring overcharge with cawl's wrath it and the shoulder cannons I had assigned with it just to be safe fired at one ravager that blew up. Even this was BARELY as bad rolling and -1 to hit strategem played hurt me. Oh and 3 wounds to castellan for my trouble. 1 stinking ravager killed. I was hoping more.
Crusader fired at cronos. Think I Was too affraid though idea of letting them hit castellan was scary. Maybe they don't reach, maybe they might not hurt it. Either way didn't want to risk it. Thermal lance did good job killing 2(yey) but endless fury failed utterly to even hurt damn thing.
Errant failed to do anything and crusader's charge ate blaster for extra 6 damage and caused just 1 wound to biker. DRAT!
His 2nd turn scourges came in. One tried to hurt castellan for light effort, another wrecked helverin. In combat he wrecked poor crusader though only barely. Surviving cronos that had come to help just in case failed to actually hurt making me think I really overestimated them and wrecking jetbikes with endless fury would have been better.
By now VP's were 7-2 as he had better luck with them. Actually for next 2 turns I got NOTHING that I could even really hope to do...
My 2nd turn and it was Castellans shining moment. Moving up it triggered raven strategem and he had only 1 CP left so couldn't stop it. HAH! Splitting my guns to maximum effect volcano lance vaporized disintegrator ravager. 3 wounding hits, 9d3 damage rerolling 1's. BOOOM! Cawl's wrath blew out last ravager. BLAM! Shoulder guns(and missile which I wasted) dropped last cronos. And melta guns dropped venom that had came nearby to take objective. Now that's more like it!
Elsewhere errant moved forward not doing much with guns and trying to charge both bikes and venom(venom in case I roll short). I rolled short due to terrain -2 so went to venom instead destroying it and having it blow in face. Helverin charged(yes charged) scourges of mucha haywire mortal wounds failing to do anything.
Anyway rest of game was basically him hurting castellan slow and steady. Well actually steadily as my 4++ failed to work at all doing like 1 out of 6 saves. The way I Was rolling even rotating ion shield would have been useless piece of 3 CP wasted...Errant was tagged into combat with S5 bikes getting chipped steadily and prevented from getting out of combat so was stomping like crazy but 12 bikes with 6++ is surprisingly tough to clear away. Castellan managed to still finish off the scourges, cause 3 wounds to character that had come too far forward and kill bunch of other scourge unit before finally dying when 3 S8 d6 damage hits got in and I saved just 1. At this point with 20-3 vp's(I had stuff like hold 3 objectives(gee that's easy), defend objective 6(oh yeah that's the one as far from my units as possible behind big pile of dark eldars), kill character in h2h(yeah those that are behind huge pile of sacrificial minions) and have 3 units on my DZ with no enemy. Well by the time that got that was my entire army and there was scourge unit I was struggling to clear...TYVM!
That 1st turn hurt. Really hurt. He got to move boxing me in hurting objectives, he killed 1 knight and hurt 2nd with big pile of lousy saves and my return attack was pathetic due to some serious bad luck and mistarget with gatling gun...After that writing was on the wall. But at least castellan got to shine blowing whopping 4 units out out of the sky right away. Don't think I have ever managed to do that!
Cheers for sharing. So sticking with the same units next game, or shaking things up?
tneva82 wrote: Played my first game with full knight army and with new toys. List was as I posted so castellan with 2 siege breakers, 4++ and cawl's wrath, crusader with thermal cannon and meltagun, errant with heavy stubber, 2 individual helverins and warglaive with meltagun. 2 raven detachments. Crusader got relic gatling gun so started with 8 CP. Oh and errant had warlord trait of 1 reroll and 1 CP so basically free one reroll(this is IMO one of the most silly traits. If you don't want to spend extra CP's for warlord traits you get one free reroll. If you take any other CP's you will then pay 1 CP for one reroll which is too expensive).
I was up against dark eldars with 3 or maybe 4 venoms with kabalites, huge 12 strong bike squad, couple HQ's, 3 cronos, 3 ravagers(one with dark lances, one with disintegrators, don't recall what other had). scourges with heat lances, scourges with haywires. Maybe something else. We played tactical gambit with vanquard deployment(the one where you are basically on quarters).
He deep striked bunch of stuff failing to regenerate CP's so after I had deployed my army all he had was warlord that went there to try CP regeneration. I got first turn but he seized. Drat. So basically he came forward fast and blew warglaive and hurt my crusader big time. To put theme to the game I failed 5 out of 7 4++ rolls. Gee. TYVM.
I circled around terrain hoping to do some hurt. I started shooting phase with raven strategem but annoyingly it was cancelled. BTW knights have precious few ways to prevent that. We have nothing really in before first shooting phase to draw it and it's first thing in shooting phase so I couldn't even tempt him to prevent something else in shooting. Not that we have anything he would want to prevent more than this...So castellan had to shoot without it. To ensure -1 to hit strategem wasn't going to screw me completely I split(plus besides otherwise soft targets so no point overkilling). I started with missile using strategem hoping to get rid of warlord. 1 to hit...Well drat. Command reroll. Hit. 1 to wound...Oh bummer.
Volcano lance against squadron of 3 cronos figuring that's good because each hit could kill one and as there's more less chance of hits going miss. It was that or ravagers but problem with ravagers would be due to terrain I was scarily close to the cronoses. Anyway moot point. 1 shot, hit, 1 wound...WTF?
At this point I was more than desperate so declaring overcharge with cawl's wrath it and the shoulder cannons I had assigned with it just to be safe fired at one ravager that blew up. Even this was BARELY as bad rolling and -1 to hit strategem played hurt me. Oh and 3 wounds to castellan for my trouble. 1 stinking ravager killed. I was hoping more.
Crusader fired at cronos. Think I Was too affraid though idea of letting them hit castellan was scary. Maybe they don't reach, maybe they might not hurt it. Either way didn't want to risk it. Thermal lance did good job killing 2(yey) but endless fury failed utterly to even hurt damn thing.
Errant failed to do anything and crusader's charge ate blaster for extra 6 damage and caused just 1 wound to biker. DRAT!
His 2nd turn scourges came in. One tried to hurt castellan for light effort, another wrecked helverin. In combat he wrecked poor crusader though only barely. Surviving cronos that had come to help just in case failed to actually hurt making me think I really overestimated them and wrecking jetbikes with endless fury would have been better.
By now VP's were 7-2 as he had better luck with them. Actually for next 2 turns I got NOTHING that I could even really hope to do...
My 2nd turn and it was Castellans shining moment. Moving up it triggered raven strategem and he had only 1 CP left so couldn't stop it. HAH! Splitting my guns to maximum effect volcano lance vaporized disintegrator ravager. 3 wounding hits, 9d3 damage rerolling 1's. BOOOM! Cawl's wrath blew out last ravager. BLAM! Shoulder guns(and missile which I wasted) dropped last cronos. And melta guns dropped venom that had came nearby to take objective. Now that's more like it!
Elsewhere errant moved forward not doing much with guns and trying to charge both bikes and venom(venom in case I roll short). I rolled short due to terrain -2 so went to venom instead destroying it and having it blow in face. Helverin charged(yes charged) scourges of mucha haywire mortal wounds failing to do anything.
Anyway rest of game was basically him hurting castellan slow and steady. Well actually steadily as my 4++ failed to work at all doing like 1 out of 6 saves. The way I Was rolling even rotating ion shield would have been useless piece of 3 CP wasted...Errant was tagged into combat with S5 bikes getting chipped steadily and prevented from getting out of combat so was stomping like crazy but 12 bikes with 6++ is surprisingly tough to clear away. Castellan managed to still finish off the scourges, cause 3 wounds to character that had come too far forward and kill bunch of other scourge unit before finally dying when 3 S8 d6 damage hits got in and I saved just 1. At this point with 20-3 vp's(I had stuff like hold 3 objectives(gee that's easy), defend objective 6(oh yeah that's the one as far from my units as possible behind big pile of dark eldars), kill character in h2h(yeah those that are behind huge pile of sacrificial minions) and have 3 units on my DZ with no enemy. Well by the time that got that was my entire army and there was scourge unit I was struggling to clear...TYVM!
That 1st turn hurt. Really hurt. He got to move boxing me in hurting objectives, he killed 1 knight and hurt 2nd with big pile of lousy saves and my return attack was pathetic due to some serious bad luck and mistarget with gatling gun...After that writing was on the wall. But at least castellan got to shine blowing whopping 4 units out out of the sky right away. Don't think I have ever managed to do that!
Cool to see a report with a pure Knights list. Only advice I can give at all is roll better . Agents of Vect is annoying, especially to an army that doesn't use a lot of strats and they cost a lot of CP (if they get that 6, you are boned hard).
Great battle report! Always good to know how knights actually do fare on the battlefield against different armies. I do think this is why Valiant is good. Its a generalist that can handle a lot of different type of units and situations. Everyone is saying Castellan is good, but I think Valiant is equally crucial in an all knight or heavy knight army.
You might think using that confrag cannon to melt a small unit of bikes or a 10 man squad of infantry is wasted. But it isn't. That 10 man squad or bike could later score a few objectives points.
Renegade Armigers . Renegade Armiger: Heavy stubber, Two armiger autocannons
. Renegade Armiger: Heavy stubber, Two armiger autocannons
Renegade Knight: Heavy stubber, Ironstorm Missile Pod
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Heavy flamer
Renegade Knight: Heavy stubber, Ironstorm Missile Pod
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Heavy flamer
Renegade Knight Dominus: Conflagration cannon and Thundercoil harpoon, 2x Twin siegebreaker cannons, Two Shieldbreaker missiles, 2 Twin Meltaguns
2k on the dot. Just the way I like it.
I am going to take the time at work tomorrow to read through a lot of this thread to learn a bit, but I'm definitely looking forward to exercising my airbrush and some fun weathering techniques. Glad to be here
Wulfey wrote: Welll a castellan can potentially bait out AGENTS_OF_VECT if you use OATHBREAKER on something valuable first. Maybe he makes a mistake.
EDIT: yes, thanks for sharing. More castellan data is always good. My wallet is starting to burn. Commentary: as much as there is some resistance to allying up knights to guard, even Duncan himself runs 30 guardsmen as peasants next to his own house GRIFFITH army.
Missile strategem is used when missile is fired. Raven strategem is used when shooting phase starts. Thus only way you can draw with oathbraker card VERBALLY. Rule wise raven strategem happens first.
So basically you have to mention the oathbreaker and hope like hell he decides to not bait agents on the idea that you MIGHT use missile strategem.
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Ideasweasel wrote: Cheers for sharing. So sticking with the same units next game, or shaking things up?
I'm rarely sticking same list for twice in a row(event games exception for obvious reason as apart from 1 in my life they have same list required for all games).
Above BA allied list is probably not possible for next week so maybe try castellan+warden+errant+helverin combined with 2 IG battallions for CP. So helverin and warglaive for more CP's. I ran out of those very quickly. And crusader I might have to drop for warden but at least power fist there.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldenfirefly wrote: Great battle report! Always good to know how knights actually do fare on the battlefield against different armies. I do think this is why Valiant is good. Its a generalist that can handle a lot of different type of units and situations. Everyone is saying Castellan is good, but I think Valiant is equally crucial in an all knight or heavy knight army.
You might think using that confrag cannon to melt a small unit of bikes or a 10 man squad of infantry is wasted. But it isn't. That 10 man squad or bike could later score a few objectives points.
Then again castellan was my MVP in the game and if it wasn't for atrocious luck on the first turn and voeful lack of CP's would have done even more damage. And wouldn't have got that ravager on first turn with valiant.
Those bikes I could have dealt well with endless fury as well but castellan's bad luck with dice made me panic and direct endless fury to the big monsters. Which then turned out 0 wounds from endless fury(despite getting whopping 16 hits. 14 shots, 10 hits 6 of those 6's...). If it hadn't been good salvo from thermal lance...
Styrix for 475 has a 4++, 5++ in close combat, take the regeneration relic, some sort of warlord trait like reroll 1s to hit or taranis, have an enginseer follow it around, who is going to kill that?
Yea, I'm surprised no one talks about the Styrix or if they do its unfavorably. For 100pts more than a standard Errant, no carapace you get:
NATURAL 4++ and 5++ in close combat
Ignores cover against everything, except vehicles but how often do they get cover anyway?
Constant five shot las cannon (minus a Str) that auto generates hits on 6 to wound meaning it will ignore negative hit modifiers
2-3 damage d3 shot Str 6 Plasma booby gun
A 2d6 flamer that will make Tyranid and Daemon players cry
A nice little self heal (albeit extremely unreliable)
So has anyone had Armigers Warglaives do... Well anything really? I've tried running 3 in a variety of IG and Admech lists and have had abysmal luck with them. Every Lance gets one shot, then misses most of the time (I have more hits with the carapace meltas ) and in CQC I have had very little success with either profiles.
I own several thanks to forgebane but it's get really annoying to see them flounder so much. I'm running them as Raven since my admech are Metallica, which you would think would help them but so far no luck.
I will say their mobility is excellent. I've never had an issue making a charge with them or getting them in the spot I want for the thermal Lance range. The issue is they just seem to be so unreliable in both shooting and assault. I tried a landstrider Gallant with them but that doesn't solve the underlying issue of hitting, they get around just fine. I assume I need something like the helm dominatus or the Raven banner for cqc, since the buff knights weapon isn't all that great.
Yeah I'm having more success with helverins to my surprise(having heard they would have long range autocannonsx2 I wasn't sold on the concept) but one reason is warglaives for me tend to get blown to bits before they get to even shoot...That or they get blown to BS4 or 5+ and then have to hit some stinking dark angels with -1 to hit or something. Not much even helverin would then be doing. And getting blown apart before getting even to shoot helps neither.
So if the general consensus is to use a Guard battalion with your Knights, what's the best "chapter tactic" (for lack of a better word, don't know what they are called) to use for them? Cadians feel the most obvious, since they are the only ones you can buy, but what about Death Korps, or Steel Legion? Forgeworlds DKoK models can be used for both, are they any good?
Well people use others with cadian models anyway so no biggie.
Cadian is fairly good especially if you have mortar HWS for rerolls. Alternatively tallarn could be good to give you speed to move if you want to move toward objectives or strategem to hide squads in reserve if you want to keep them alive and have CP to spare(though albeit that removes part of reason for battallion though CP generator commander will recover part of that). Valhallan could be good if you can afford the relic to get some cheap fearless guys.
MrMoustaffa wrote: So has anyone had Armigers Warglaives do... Well anything really? I've tried running 3 in a variety of IG and Admech lists and have had abysmal luck with them. Every Lance gets one shot, then misses most of the time (I have more hits with the carapace meltas ) and in CQC I have had very little success with either profiles.
I own several thanks to forgebane but it's get really annoying to see them flounder so much. I'm running them as Raven since my admech are Metallica, which you would think would help them but so far no luck.
I will say their mobility is excellent. I've never had an issue making a charge with them or getting them in the spot I want for the thermal Lance range. The issue is they just seem to be so unreliable in both shooting and assault. I tried a landstrider Gallant with them but that doesn't solve the underlying issue of hitting, they get around just fine. I assume I need something like the helm dominatus or the Raven banner for cqc, since the buff knights weapon isn't all that great.
Try them as a backfield harassment unit using the Sally Forth Stratagem (3CP) and maybe Pack Hunters (1CP) i.e. outflank a unit of 3 that goes after opponent armor and guard units on home objectives and so on. This let's them avoid getting shot at while having to run up the board to get in range and also creates another tactical move for your opponent to ponder. Your Helverins should then stay at range picking out anything else.
Problem with that is that having over 500 pts out of game for 1 turn and then depend on having targets near flank AND making 9" charge(50-50 even if you have full reroll like orks) for 3CP is...pricey.
tneva82 wrote: Problem with that is that having over 500 pts out of game for 1 turn and then depend on having targets near flank AND making 9" charge(50-50 even if you have full reroll like orks) for 3CP is...pricey.
It's not for every game but when the situation calls for it. Sometimes you outflank, sometimes you outflank in your own zone for protection, sometimes you just run up the board. And 500 points out of the game for 1 turn is better than 500 points getting shot of the board as i see it.
If you mostly want your units to perform from turn 1 then long range shooting is the go to, but beware when this or similar tactics is used against you in turn. Having 3 warglaives flank your Helverins is 500 points of Helverins getting deleted.
Own zone for protection works for shooty knights. But for armigers having to deploy close to own DZ and then sit there for a turn...You basically start further away than you would have and then can't even move on T1 so enemy will have free pass at shooting! Not to mention you do this before knowing who gets first turn to which you have +1 so more often than not enemy will get free round of fire anyway then and you start further in turn 2 when you finally move. And wasted getting T1.
tneva82 wrote: Problem with that is that having over 500 pts out of game for 1 turn and then depend on having targets near flank AND making 9" charge(50-50 even if you have full reroll like orks) for 3CP is...pricey.
It's not for every game but when the situation calls for it. Sometimes you outflank, sometimes you outflank in your own zone for protection, sometimes you just run up the board. And 500 points out of the game for 1 turn is better than 500 points getting shot of the board as i see it.
If you mostly want your units to perform from turn 1 then long range shooting is the go to, but beware when this or similar tactics is used against you in turn. Having 3 warglaives flank your Helverins is 500 points of Helverins getting deleted.
Also you can mitigate with landstrider for example add 2" to your charge.
tneva82 wrote: Own zone for protection works for shooty knights. But for armigers having to deploy close to own DZ and then sit there for a turn...You basically start further away than you would have and then can't even move on T1 so enemy will have free pass at shooting! Not to mention you do this before knowing who gets first turn to which you have +1 so more often than not enemy will get free round of fire anyway then and you start further in turn 2 when you finally move. And wasted getting T1.
Depends on terrain and opponents army ofc and so on but if there is a risk of getting hit with first turn charges in my own zone, i would consider outflanking warglaives for a counter strike in my zone and deploying my forces accordingly to support this. Either way you have outflanking units which opponent needs to consider.
tneva82 wrote: Own zone for protection works for shooty knights. But for armigers having to deploy close to own DZ and then sit there for a turn...You basically start further away than you would have and then can't even move on T1 so enemy will have free pass at shooting! Not to mention you do this before knowing who gets first turn to which you have +1 so more often than not enemy will get free round of fire anyway then and you start further in turn 2 when you finally move. And wasted getting T1.
Depends on terrain and opponents army ofc and so on but if there is a risk of getting hit with first turn charges in my own zone, i would consider outflanking warglaives for a counter strike in my zone and deploying my forces accordingly to support this. Either way you have outflanking units which opponent needs to consider.
Countercharging in your own DZ requires opponent to come to your zone. Knights needs to move forward though to fight for objectives and make sure you aren't losing on the stomp attacks so odds are good it's you who are moving forward so there won't be counter charging. Especially turn 1. Delaying further than that just makes you play handicapped and knights aren't THAT overpowered.
Kind of linked to the above but how do people feel about the FW Acheron instead of the Valiant? Bit cheaper, more mobile and slightly better in CC but lacks the raw fire power of the valiant.
One of them for dealing with stacked -ve to hit modifiers like eldar, preferring the Archeron over all as with the House raven tradition and sanctuary relic he'd be a decent candidate for first turn charges with the full tilt stratagem while still offering lot's of burninating, but wondering if its worth the 1d6 less on the flamer and carapace weapons the Valiant has?
Secondly what do people think about elysians as the usual CP battery? Thinking a couple of vultures to help with initial anti-horde and due to knights durability I shouldn't have to worry about them increasing the chance of an early game tabling too badly. The infantry squads I'd probably run bare bone for third turn objective snatching when hope hopefully some gaps have been opened and major threats neutralized or deployed earlier for some FRFSRF to assisst with thinning hordes if planes and knights aren't sufficient.
Probably wouldn't use the usual grand strategist and Aquila combo due to them possibly being off the table for a few turns, but i think 5CP, some anti-horde shooting and deep striking objective secured would make it worth while and 14CP would be enough to have some fun with a few different stratagems though would probably run out by turn 3.
On Warglaives, best use seems to be to shadow a larger Knight and to use it either as a support for that Knight or to tackle anything that might threaten the Knight. You know, kind of how the Warglaive is described to work.
I fine that Helverins will do the same way, only they do the heavy lifting while ranged Knights support them.
Shadow doesn't really help them though. Whether they are behind of front or far away question is which enemy will feel to be bigger target to deal with first
ragnorack1 wrote: Kind of linked to the above but how do people feel about the FW Acheron instead of the Valiant? Bit cheaper, more mobile and slightly better in CC but lacks the raw fire power of the valiant.
One of them for dealing with stacked -ve to hit modifiers like eldar, preferring the Archeron over all as with the House raven tradition and sanctuary relic he'd be a decent candidate for first turn charges with the full tilt stratagem while still offering lot's of burninating, but wondering if its worth the 1d6 less on the flamer and carapace weapons the Valiant has?
I've been thinking about a list along these lines..
++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [91 PL, 1776pts] ++ Exalted Court: Exalted Court: 2 Extra Warlord Traits (-3CP)
Heirlooms of the Household: Heirlooms of the Household: 2 Extra Heirlooms (-3CP)
Household Choice: House Raven, Questor Mechanicus
+ Lord of War +
Armiger Helverins [18 PL, 348pts] . Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber
tneva82 wrote: Shadow doesn't really help them though. Whether they are behind of front or far away question is which enemy will feel to be bigger target to deal with first
“Shadow” means to be behind and mostly out of sight yet still near by ... like your shadow. As in, let the Gallant lead, have the Warglaives trail close behind.
Which doesn't help. Where-ever it is question is does he want to take out warglaive or gallant. Only way you can really alter that is by having one so far it's not a threat so opponent will shoot at other but that's not a good idea...warglaive too far to threaten might just as well be dead
alleus wrote: So if the general consensus is to use a Guard battalion with your Knights, what's the best "chapter tactic" (for lack of a better word, don't know what they are called) to use for them? Cadians feel the most obvious, since they are the only ones you can buy, but what about Death Korps, or Steel Legion? Forgeworlds DKoK models can be used for both, are they any good?
I've been working on three variations so far:
Cadians 2 Company commanders, 3x Infantry squads w/mortar - act as meat shields, hide the warlord during deployment
Elysians 2 Company commanders, 3x Infantry squads w/plasma - deep strikers for holding late game objectives, hide the warlord during deployment
Scions 2 Primes, 3x 5man squads w/plasma - deep strikers for holding late game objectives, hide the warlord during deployment
I like the last two as I can hold back 4 units in reserve - maybe give me a chance to get better placement.
Scions just dont survive. They are drop in, kill target, then die units. I would only count on them to hold objectives if they are bare bones, no plasma guns.
I dont know if this has been brought up yet, but the paragon gauntlet looks like an auto included on the gallant. Not only does it give 8 damage, but the -1 to hit rolls on the thunderstrike is no longer there. So you have 5A hitting on a 2+ with 2x strength and 8 damage. That's huge. Add in your favorite warlord trait and hes a beast
I am still a supporter of Valiant. Think its a great knight to have in an IK army. 
took a nerf in the 
. Agents of Vect is annoying, especially to an army that doesn't use a lot of strats and they cost a lot of