Question, How would one with a Knight list fight against the following list? A mate of mine wants to take this list to tournament with countering Knight in particular in mind.
Eldar Altatioc detachment. 2x Farseer Skyrunner 3x rangers 3x Hemlocks
Harlequins The Soaring Spite detachment 1 troupemaster 3x 6 skyweavers with haywire cannons.
I was unable to beat it with a pure Knight list as hard as I tried. My list was: House Hold krast 1 Gallant 2 Crusaders with Gatling and Battle Cannons. One with the icarus autocannon and one with the stormspear rocket pod. (1 is my warlord with the endless fury relic and first knight trait) 1 valiant with two cannons on the shoulders and one set of missiles. ( has the 4++ warlord trait.
While this might not have been the most optimal list against his list it was one that took me quite high in a local tournament and what we agreed to use an example.
His list is able to consistently remove one knight per turn, even when losing complete squads of jetbikes. His farseers and Hemlocks having doom, jinx and restrain as powers. Restrain proves to be extremely effective to stop my Gallant without needing to dedicate any fire on it. Doom on the unfortunate knight that is targeted that turn pretty much ensures he is able to deal an absurd amount of mortal wounds on that knight which not even the strat. "benevolence of the machine god" can help to survive. Additionally his army is extremely tough. Not in actual toughness, but with -1 to hit everywhere, some -2 and even and a 4++ invul makes that his army extremely hard to shift.
So as fellow Knight players, what kind of list would you build against this? Try to not be depended on allies as your main source of survival.
EDITED: Two Hemlocks had restrain, not the farseers.
Unfortunately Doom plus haywire is kinda rediculous when playing against knights.
Untill GW stop doom applying to all wounds instead of Aysurani yo wound rolls, this is going to be a go to of broken.
A blessed Gatling cannon would help by providing your own mortal would mechanic against the harlequins.
It also doesn't exactly help that they are cheesing the heck out of negative to hit modifiers and invulnerable saves.
Charging the skyweavers is the best strategy I can recommend.
Though I could be wrong, I don't believe a farseer can have restrain as a power that would have to be a hemlock.
As it is with miniature games and 8th ed 40k in particular if opponent wants to tailor your list and you refuse to use tools you can re-tailor not much you CAN do.
While I knew the game would be rigged from the start in his favour, because that is what we agreed on. I was more or less wondering if there is anything in our own codex that can proof to be a decent counter against such an anti-knight list or a way to minimalize defeat. Preferable by not getting not wiped out on turn 4.
At the moment I think having several Helverins would be a decent counter from our own codex. A single Helverin kills on average 1,5 bike per turn, with four of them you could kill off a single skyweaver bike squad per turn. Also with Helverins being grand in enough other match-ups it not that bad an idea to drop one crusader (or the valiant) and tweak a bit with the rest of the list to make room for them.
So, vs that list (if you want to tailor) i'd look at running the following -
3 Crusaders with RFBCs and 1 with an Ironstorm pod.
1 x 3 Helverins
Essentially gives you 4 drops and a hell of a lot of fire power.
Household wise, you could do 1 of 2 things.
1 - everything goes house Mortan. The stratagem is totally worth it, and will give you a bit of help if he tries to charge you to lock you up.
2 - 2 Crusaders + 1 Helverin go Mortan, 1 Crusader and 2 Helverin go a Mechanicus house (maybe Raven). This then gives you the stratagem access to ignore mortal wounds for 1 CP.
Alternatively, you could run 2 Crusaders with Ironstorm, 2 Wardens and 2 Helverins.
This might actually be the better choice as it gives you a 4th "big" Knight threat and will just chew through his bikes.
Aeri wrote: Can a Knight in a Superheavy Auxiliary Detachment gain a household tradition? My understanding is yes, but a friend says no.
No tradition. You can use strategems for that house though which is why you see raven castellans so much but no tradition.
You get the Household keyword (which unlocks access to stratagems and heirlooms) but not to the rules of the tradition itself. For that, you need a full lance of 3 Knights.
Aeri wrote: Can a Knight in a Superheavy Auxiliary Detachment gain a household tradition? My understanding is yes, but a friend says no.
No tradition. You can use strategems for that house though which is why you see raven castellans so much but no tradition.
You get the Household keyword (which unlocks access to stratagems and heirlooms) but not to the rules of the tradition itself. For that, you need a full lance of 3 Knights.
You need a non-Auxiliary detachment. 3 Amigers would still get a House Tradition. You dont need Knights.
In putting together a close-combat oriented Knight list, I've acquired 4 Armiger Warglaives and a Gallant. I like the idea of just simply charging at the opponent's lines with Knights, and will mix in AM at various levels when things get more competitive.
I'd like to add a Cerastus Knight, and, my question is—which one? I'm leaning towards the Atrapos based on the stat sheet. Does anyone have any thoughts or experience with that or any of the other Cerastus frames?
Eldarain wrote: Well that was annoying. The infinite CP Soup Castellan running rampant so ruin it for mono IK armies.
The sad thing is I think this does exactly what GW intended which is to make the CP 32 now even more mandatory for anyone trying to play a knights list. well mono knights were fun whike they lasted.
Arlen wrote: Thats bollocks, mono-knights are still very good. Maybe it is now the right time to try out other houses rather the ones that where clearly the top.
Competitively mono knights are trashed, anyone running a castellan mono now needs 6 CP just for oath breaker guidance strategums, kind hard when your getting 9 CP for a 2K list
Especially now that for 6 points more than a helverin you get a 100 % no charge line of guardsmen.
Arlen wrote: Thats bollocks, mono-knights are still very good. Maybe it is now the right time to try out other houses rather the ones that where clearly the top.
Competitively mono knights are trashed, anyone running a castellan mono now needs 6 CP just for oath breaker guidance strategums, kind hard when your getting 9 CP for a 2K list
Especially now that for 6 points more than a helverin you get a 100 % no charge line of guardsmen.
Good thing then you don't need oath breaker when using castellan? I rarely used it anyway. You only need that when trying to assasinate characters but ~25% chance to assasinate even weaker character is simply too unreliable. Only target it was actually worth it was ork weirdboy as 2 wounds in already basically cripples them and takes out of picture as reliable threat(and weirdboys are crucial for orks). As it is it was already hardly issue(which albeit makes the nerf bit weird). So basically rather than that I threw those missiles more toward vehicles or monsters.
Apologies if the answer to this is buried in the forum somewhere.
For mono Knights at 1750 is it worth trying to squeeze in a Castellan or Valiant? As you need 3 Questoris or Dominus knights for the extra command points taking a Dominus seems to either limit what Questoris ones you can take or force you to leave out any Armigers which then limits your numbers.
Ive had great success with twin gallants and a castellan, albeit with guard mortar HWT spam, and hydra batteries (criminally undercosted and hyperefficient vs eldar).
Those hydra batteries, for 225 points and a single drop, have done more work against eldar than all of my stompy bois. This list I piloted to a definitive win at a local 42 person tournament. (3x 20-0 wins scoring 40+ points a game), and have been running for some time now.
Gallants are almost as good as a castellan, as they usually end up unmolested as they spend an entire armies worth of shooting trying to down a knight.
Being T8, 28w with a 2+/3++/6+++ that can get back up and operate at top teir again is disgusting.
For reference, while house raven was good for a single castellan, if your running mono knights I feel house taranis is head and shoulders above the rest. It is expensive but getting a knight back up is insanely powerful, far more worth than rerolling 1's in a phase.
Coupled with the fact that you don't need shooting the second twin gallants crash into their lines (the second they get there youre almost guaranteed a win), add in full tilt and landstrider your looking at t1 charges, t2 both are stomping to victory.
Mono knights I dont feel are top teir, they do not score well in missions, you need cheap bodies. Now that CP farming has been nerfed, I suggest looking into mechanicum, as you can still get rerolls of 1's to hit on a knight, but can also give one a cover save, or reroll to hit in combat. Granted it costs a CP a turn but it is very powerful in the right conditions.
Good thing then you don't need oath breaker when using castellan? I rarely used it anyway. You only need that when trying to assasinate characters but ~25% chance to assasinate even weaker character is simply too unreliable. Only target it was actually worth it was ork weirdboy as 2 wounds in already basically cripples them and takes out of picture as reliable threat(and weirdboys are crucial for orks). As it is it was already hardly issue(which albeit makes the nerf bit weird). So basically rather than that I threw those missiles more toward vehicles or monsters.
I'm gonna go ahead and strongly refute what you have stated here. The increase in CP on Oathbreaker was definitely warranted because the odds of one-shotting characters is much, much higher than 25%.
Oathbreaker was used in conjunction with 3 other things that you have not factored in : Order of Companions, Grand Strategist, and a Command Reroll.
Combining all this resulted in almost a 50% chance to one-shot FIVE WOUND characters which are often key linchpin units of the enemy army such as Yvraine/Farseer, Smash Captains, Azrael, Colonel Straken, etc.
The odds of one-shotting get drastically better if the character has less than 5 wounds.
A 4-wound character, such as a Company Commander, dies 65% of the time, and 3-wound characters 77% of the time.
It is certainly a fair nerf considering it can just remove key characters with little to no reprisal.
Hit on a 3, rerolling 1s. Odds are 77.78% of hitting.
Wounding on a 2, rerolling 1s. 97.22% chance of that going through.
No saves unless you have a 2+, which a lot of characters don't, so we'll assume no save. 100% chance.
And then, the damage roll, which is d6, rerollable with a CP if you don't roll high enough. 75% chance of one-shotting a 4 wound character, 55.56% chance of one-shotting a 5 wound character.
Total odds:
56.71% chance of one-shotting a 4 wound character.
42.01% chance of one-shotting a 5 wound character.
Wounding on a 2, rerolling 1s. 97.22% chance of that going through.
No saves unless you have a 2+, which a lot of characters don't, so we'll assume no save. 100% chance.
And then, the damage roll, which is d6, rerollable with a CP if you don't roll high enough. 75% chance of one-shotting a 4 wound character, 55.56% chance of one-shotting a 5 wound character.
Total odds:
56.71% chance of one-shotting a 4 wound character.
42.01% chance of one-shotting a 5 wound character.
The odds are even higher than this. You are not factoring in Grand Strategist.
It makes the chance of hitting 88.888%. (3+ rerollable)
Although hes not factoring a save and even a Company commander would have a 5++ and marine based characters a 4++ thats a big chunk of nothing not factored in and lets face it a skilled opponent will know its coming and save the reroll so that space marine saves 75% of the time that Company commander 55%
U02dah4 wrote: Although hes not factoring a save and even a Company commander would have a 5++ and marine based characters a 4++ thats a big chunk of nothing not factored in and lets face it a skilled opponent will no its coming and save the reroll so that space marine saves 75% of the time that Company commander 55%
Since you are not aware, I will inform you. The biggest strength of Shieldbreaker Missiles is that they ignore invulnerable saves.
Arlen wrote: Question,
How would one with a Knight list fight against the following list?
A mate of mine wants to take this list to tournament with countering Knight in particular in mind.
Eldar Altatioc detachment.
2x Farseer Skyrunner
3x rangers
3x Hemlocks
Harlequins The Soaring Spite detachment
1 troupemaster
3x 6 skyweavers with haywire cannons.
I was unable to beat it with a pure Knight list as hard as I tried.
My list was:
House Hold krast
1 Gallant
2 Crusaders with Gatling and Battle Cannons. One with the icarus autocannon and one with the stormspear rocket pod.
(1 is my warlord with the endless fury relic and first knight trait)
1 valiant with two cannons on the shoulders and one set of missiles.
( has the 4++ warlord trait.
While this might not have been the most optimal list against his list it was one that took me quite high in a local tournament and what we agreed to use an example.
His list is able to consistently remove one knight per turn, even when losing complete squads of jetbikes. His farseers and Hemlocks having doom, jinx and restrain as powers.
Restrain proves to be extremely effective to stop my Gallant without needing to dedicate any fire on it.
Doom on the unfortunate knight that is targeted that turn pretty much ensures he is able to deal an absurd amount of mortal wounds on that knight which not even the strat. "benevolence of the machine god" can help to survive.
Additionally his army is extremely tough. Not in actual toughness, but with -1 to hit everywhere, some -2 and even and a 4++ invul makes that his army extremely hard to shift.
So as fellow Knight players, what kind of list would you build against this? Try to not be depended on allies as your main source of survival.
EDITED: Two Hemlocks had restrain, not the farseers.
Hes specifically tailoring against you so you can do the same. Go house tyranis with a preceptor and 3-4 helverins - the rest of your points take gallants house raven with auto cannon carrapace. Ignore the hemlocks at first - kill the Harlie bikes - (hemlocks actaully aren't that great vs knights). Should be a fair match then.
I'm happy to lose some CP if it means the game overall becomes less CP focused. This CP focus makes the game more like a trading card game with casting spells than a tactical wargame.
CP seems as if it started out as a way to encourage people to use brigades and a minimum number of troops - which itself was an attempt at balance through unit selection. Now it's become its own bloated monster.
Wounding on a 2, rerolling 1s. 97.22% chance of that going through.
No saves unless you have a 2+, which a lot of characters don't, so we'll assume no save. 100% chance.
And then, the damage roll, which is d6, rerollable with a CP if you don't roll high enough. 75% chance of one-shotting a 4 wound character, 55.56% chance of one-shotting a 5 wound character.
Total odds:
56.71% chance of one-shotting a 4 wound character.
42.01% chance of one-shotting a 5 wound character.
The odds are even higher than this. You are not factoring in Grand Strategist.
It makes the chance of hitting 88.888%. (3+ rerollable)
No your factoring in a non Knights re roll into a comment on the price increases being uncalled for in mono knights.
Without your guard reroll and CP oathbreaker was the correct number of CP, mono knights just got aucker punched because of abuses only IG soup could pull of.
Wounding on a 2, rerolling 1s. 97.22% chance of that going through.
No saves unless you have a 2+, which a lot of characters don't, so we'll assume no save. 100% chance.
And then, the damage roll, which is d6, rerollable with a CP if you don't roll high enough. 75% chance of one-shotting a 4 wound character, 55.56% chance of one-shotting a 5 wound character.
Total odds:
56.71% chance of one-shotting a 4 wound character.
42.01% chance of one-shotting a 5 wound character.
The odds are even higher than this. You are not factoring in Grand Strategist.
It makes the chance of hitting 88.888%. (3+ rerollable)
No your factoring in a non Knights re roll into a comment on the price increases being uncalled for in mono knights.
Without your guard reroll and CP oathbreaker was the correct number of CP, mono knights just got aucker punched because of abuses only IG soup could pull of.
I mean...really the only stratagem that should have gone up in cost was the taranis knight resurrection strat IMO and the Castellan needs to go up in points. The others are unfounded. Order of companions is basically unplayable now for knights players.
3 CP to have D3 wounds on a 4+ is pretty bad return on CP really.
Yeah being able to spend 2CP to get back up and 1 CP to fight a full wounds with possibly a 4th to reroll the 4+ was good but it was over 50% of my lists starting CP for a game.
Wounding on a 2, rerolling 1s. 97.22% chance of that going through.
No saves unless you have a 2+, which a lot of characters don't, so we'll assume no save. 100% chance.
And then, the damage roll, which is d6, rerollable with a CP if you don't roll high enough. 75% chance of one-shotting a 4 wound character, 55.56% chance of one-shotting a 5 wound character.
Total odds:
56.71% chance of one-shotting a 4 wound character.
42.01% chance of one-shotting a 5 wound character.
The odds are even higher than this. You are not factoring in Grand Strategist.
It makes the chance of hitting 88.888%. (3+ rerollable)
No your factoring in a non Knights re roll into a comment on the price increases being uncalled for in mono knights.
Without your guard reroll and CP oathbreaker was the correct number of CP, mono knights just got aucker punched because of abuses only IG soup could pull of.
I mean...really the only stratagem that should have gone up in cost was the taranis knight resurrection strat IMO and the Castellan needs to go up in points. The others are unfounded. Order of companions is basically unplayable now for knights players.
Order of Companions doubles the damage a Castellan does. Hell yes its worth 3 CP.
Its worth a lot less for other knights obviously as they don't bring a buttload of random dice weapons.
Hi there, I spend 3 day's working trough all of the previeus comment's (42 pages of it... really). I learned a lot guys. So thank you all.
So... after the FAQ 2 is there anyone still cheering for house taranis? 3CP to get back up, possibly 1 for reroll and than 1 to use it at full BS. House trait is still soilid I think, but stratagem.. nahh.
I'm trying to make a TAC list post FAQ but I am stuggling. I think a lot of you guys are proppably so why not give each other a hand. I had this list in mind.
House Raven
- Castellen, 2 Missilles (Wrath and Ion Bullwark, Warlord)
- Crusader, AVG, TC (Cunning Commander)
- Warden, AVG (Relic)
House Mortan (for strat)
- 2x Helverin
Loyal 32 (only Aquila)
A lot of dakka so should have a decent chance againtst DE and Horde army's. (I think the two most scarry opponent's to knights) But is it enough against another knight list? Can it do enough vs 200+ greenskins? Thought's? Suggestions? Comments?
I think a lot of people are kinda accepting post FAQ that GW has just made it so mono Knights don't work.
In all honesty I expect the Castellan to get a second nerf in the points department. Which it needs but the strategums certainly didn't need to be nerfed.
Also I've never really been sold on the castellan, I feel knights have enough issues with minimal model count without sinking even more points into a single model.
The Castellan works more as an allied knight not so much as part of a knights army.
Ice_can wrote: I think a lot of people are kinda accepting post FAQ that GW has just made it so mono Knights don't work.
In all honesty I expect the Castellan to get a second nerf in the points department. Which it needs but the strategums certainly didn't need to be nerfed.
Also I've never really been sold on the castellan, I feel knights have enough issues with minimal model count without sinking even more points into a single model.
The Castellan works more as an allied knight not so much as part of a knights army.
By this you also mean a knights list including the 2 CC en 3x Infantry squad (AKA the loyal 32) like the one I just posted?
Is this a general feeling most people have? Knights are done and are now only good as ally's? Would very much like to hear If people agree with this.
Wounding on a 2, rerolling 1s. 97.22% chance of that going through.
No saves unless you have a 2+, which a lot of characters don't, so we'll assume no save. 100% chance.
And then, the damage roll, which is d6, rerollable with a CP if you don't roll high enough. 75% chance of one-shotting a 4 wound character, 55.56% chance of one-shotting a 5 wound character.
Total odds:
56.71% chance of one-shotting a 4 wound character.
42.01% chance of one-shotting a 5 wound character.
The odds are even higher than this. You are not factoring in Grand Strategist.
It makes the chance of hitting 88.888%. (3+ rerollable)
So now you are factoring in warlord trait that was nerfed and will cost you 1-2 CP to even have, command reroll(which might have been needed elsewhere too) and of course that raven strategem got nerfed as well. You are looking at castellan that will easily burn 10 CP now in a turn with much reduced CP available to begin with.
And still just 50-50. You are pretty much required to bring in IG battallion or two to even fuel all that CP and burned most of that in a turn. That castellan better BE good as it's hogging resources now even more than slamquinus did.
Ice_can wrote: I think a lot of people are kinda accepting post FAQ that GW has just made it so mono Knights don't work.
In all honesty I expect the Castellan to get a second nerf in the points department. Which it needs but the strategums certainly didn't need to be nerfed.
Also I've never really been sold on the castellan, I feel knights have enough issues with minimal model count without sinking even more points into a single model.
The Castellan works more as an allied knight not so much as part of a knights army.
By this you also mean a knights list including the 2 CC en 3x Infantry squad (AKA the loyal 32) like the one I just posted?
Is this a general feeling most people have? Knights are done and are now only good as ally's? Would very much like to hear If people agree with this.
I ment an army made exclusively from the Knights codex.
Pre nerf they were competitive but not really a top table army, now they need atleast the 32 though I'm not 100% sold on grand strategist I know it's 6 CP over the game but it costs atleast 2 CP in for a second warlord trait for knight or just straight up costs you a third warlord trait. Its another 1 or 2 CP for a relic so its really only a gain of 2 CP. Additionally I think now with doom and haywire some psykic defence is going to become increasingly key to keeping knights alive as doom and haywire is just a delete button to knights.
Ice_can wrote: I think a lot of people are kinda accepting post FAQ that GW has just made it so mono Knights don't work.
In all honesty I expect the Castellan to get a second nerf in the points department. Which it needs but the strategums certainly didn't need to be nerfed.
Also I've never really been sold on the castellan, I feel knights have enough issues with minimal model count without sinking even more points into a single model.
The Castellan works more as an allied knight not so much as part of a knights army.
By this you also mean a knights list including the 2 CC en 3x Infantry squad (AKA the loyal 32) like the one I just posted?
Is this a general feeling most people have? Knights are done and are now only good as ally's? Would very much like to hear If people agree with this.
I ment an army made exclusively from the Knights codex.
Pre nerf they were competitive but not really a top table army, now they need atleast the 32 though I'm not 100% sold on grand strategist I know it's 6 CP over the game but it costs atleast 2 CP in for a second warlord trait for knight or just straight up costs you a third warlord trait. Its another 1 or 2 CP for a relic so its really only a gain of 2 CP. Additionally I think now with doom and haywire some psykic defence is going to become increasingly key to keeping knights alive as doom and haywire is just a delete button to knights.
I agree on pure knights not being competative, that's why I put the loyal 32 in my list. I recognise the question you have about the grand stratagist might not be worth it. You can only refund 1 CP per battle round. (so that's my turn and my opponent's turn) so having both GS and the Aquila I think is not worth it. I would take at least 2 relics, 2 warlord traits. Taking aa CC with GS those will cost 6 CP total instead of just 2 CP. With no chance to refuell CP but 1 a round I'll take that 4 CP difference. What do you think? Is taking the Aquila still worth it?
I was also tinkering with using AdMech instead of IG. One AdMech chapter has a stratagem on a 4 cancel a physic power. Might be worth it to cancel doom or that chaos power to cancel an invul save. You still have a strat to cancel mortal wounds on a 5+. Don't forget!! Doing 24 wounds with haywire is tough and recuires focusing. So having a 5+++ on one knight might save you'r beacon.
Grand Stratagist is no 6 CP in a realistic scenario. Its more like 3 because the game will be largely decided by the time you get to turn 4.
Considering you'll want atleast 1 warlord trait and relic on your Knights normally GS is barely worth it in my eyes for a mostly Knight list.
If you want a 2nd warlord trait or relic its already not worth it, completely so if you want both.
U02dah4 wrote: Now you probably make your warlord a knight and pop 1cp for the aquilla
This is what I would do. Only is the Aquilla worth the 1 CP? It'll cost 1 So you need to gain 2 CP from it to get advantage. If you are facing an elite army with only 8 or so CP and the use expensive strats (2 or 3 CP each) then you are out of options to benefit from it very soon. Remeber, the opponents CP cost are irrelevant for how many dice you can roll. It's still only 1 if you'r enemy pops a 3 CP strat.
if your opponent uses 3 stratagems per battle round aquilla is a 70% chance to get a CP.
You need to make 2 CP to get a profit out of it,
so your looking at 3 stratagems per battle round for 3 rounds. to get a good return? or have him use more then 3 stratagems per turn.
Its probably heavily dependent on the army your facing. If they spend their CP on many cheap stratagems or a few expensive ones.
Fortunately you can decide if you buy the Aquilla when you know his army but I suspect it won't be worth it most of the time.
Most tournaments let you choose your extra strategem relics each game so look at your opponents list and then make a judgement call if your opponent has 6 CP its clearly not worth it and if your opponent has 20 it likely is
As to numbers 1.5CP will net you a profit more games than not.
.so I would set the benchmark lower 3 round 1 and 2 across the rest of the game. The likeliihood goes up the more they use. most lists will use atleast that much
faithonwings wrote: Hi there, I spend 3 day's working trough all of the previeus comment's (42 pages of it... really). I learned a lot guys. So thank you all.
So... after the FAQ 2 is there anyone still cheering for house taranis? 3CP to get back up, possibly 1 for reroll and than 1 to use it at full BS. House trait is still soilid I think, but stratagem.. nahh.
I'm trying to make a TAC list post FAQ but I am stuggling. I think a lot of you guys are proppably so why not give each other a hand. I had this list in mind.
House Raven
- Castellen, 2 Missilles (Wrath and Ion Bullwark, Warlord)
- Crusader, AVG, TC (Cunning Commander)
- Warden, AVG (Relic)
House Mortan (for strat)
- 2x Helverin
Loyal 32 (only Aquila)
A lot of dakka so should have a decent chance againtst DE and Horde army's. (I think the two most scarry opponent's to knights) But is it enough against another knight list? Can it do enough vs 200+ greenskins? Thought's? Suggestions? Comments?
I’m still cheering for House Taranis, but mine was painted that way prior to 8th edition. Still a bit salty about (my opinion) the unnecessary collateral damage from that stupid BA/IG/IK list but what can you do.
The one positive is the more knights get nerfed into the ground the less resistance people have to them for friendly games - which is great. But if you wanted to take your stompy bots to a tournament your not as well off as you once were
faithonwings wrote: Hi there, I spend 3 day's working trough all of the previeus comment's (42 pages of it... really). I learned a lot guys. So thank you all.
So... after the FAQ 2 is there anyone still cheering for house taranis? 3CP to get back up, possibly 1 for reroll and than 1 to use it at full BS. House trait is still soilid I think, but stratagem.. nahh.
I'm trying to make a TAC list post FAQ but I am stuggling. I think a lot of you guys are proppably so why not give each other a hand. I had this list in mind.
House Raven
- Castellen, 2 Missilles (Wrath and Ion Bullwark, Warlord)
- Crusader, AVG, TC (Cunning Commander)
- Warden, AVG (Relic)
House Mortan (for strat)
- 2x Helverin
Loyal 32 (only Aquila)
A lot of dakka so should have a decent chance againtst DE and Horde army's. (I think the two most scarry opponent's to knights) But is it enough against another knight list? Can it do enough vs 200+ greenskins? Thought's? Suggestions? Comments?
I’m still cheering for House Taranis, but mine was painted that way prior to 8th edition. Still a bit salty about (my opinion) the unnecessary collateral damage from that stupid BA/IG/IK list but what can you do.
The one positive is the more knights get nerfed into the ground the less resistance people have to them for friendly games - which is great. But if you wanted to take your stompy bots to a tournament your not as well off as you once were
Very interested in you'r experiences post FAQ. When it comes to the strat you need at least 4 CP to get it opperating for another round and a 50% of the time you need a reroll. Do you think the houserule is enough to keep the house? Why? Or do you feel you don't have a choice because the way the are paintend?
My knights aren't painted in one of the 9 house collors. (none of my army's are painted in regular collors) So I can pick any house I want and try out lot's of new stuff. Only downside is that most of the guys at my local store kind of hate them so I don't get to play them as much as I want.
Ah the colour was a tongue in cheek anecdote. If I was in a competitive game i would probably cherry pick the best house for the task.
That being said Taranis 6+FNP does best the higher the volume of knights. I haven’t had a game since the faq but I suspect CP limitations are going to be very rough.
I’m really tempted to try out 5 Gallants and an Armiger. 132 wounds to chew through and with the 6+fnp your probably getting about an entire knights worth back which is fun.
The above would just be a silly list btw and just for a fun game.
Looking at my taranis list which went 60/80 at my last tourney asside from CP regen its only minimally effected and most of that is the loss of CP regen its still a solid list
I’m looking at running knights with allies. I’ll be taking 2x Gallants and 2x Helverins for a super heavy detachment, none of the knights are going to be my warlord but instead Guilliman in a super heavy auxiliary detachment and then a spear head detachment of space marines with a Lieutenant, 1x Lascannon squad, 1x Plasma canon squad and a heavy Bolter squad.
So the plan is to use house Mortan for the knights +1 to hit so the gallants thunder strike(paragon gauntlet) still hits on 2+. I will then use CPs to take Ion Bulwark, paragon gauntlet on one knight then armour of the sainted ion and landstrider on the other. This makes both knights at least capable of 4+ invulnerable saves, however depending on opponent can swap to make one a 3+ and rely on the 2+ armour of the other.
Space marines will use salamander tactics which allows me to use a free re-roll to hit and wound roll for when Guilliman aura bible is out of range. Guilliman will deploy directly behind the gallants to prevent being targeted which will allow him to provide his auras for longer ultimately granting the gallants +3” to advance and charge distances and the use of full tilt stratagem will allow at least one 1st turn charge, plus re-roll hits of 1 so the gallants will most likely hit much of the time and wounding most things on 2+. At this point the 2nd gallant could try heroic intervention and Guilliman if he is close enough. Helverins do there best to stay mobile and keep the re-roll from Guilliman if possible and focus on what they can see. Devastators stay back field and provide fire support first turn getting Guillimans re-roll 1s to hit and the lieutants re-roll to wound from turn 2 using the chapter tactics to re-roll.
Overall I believe the list itself to have good synergy, target saturation and hope the deployments and rolls go in its favour.
Adam_1994 wrote: I’m looking at running knights with allies. I’ll be taking 2x Gallants and 2x Helverins for a super heavy detachment, none of the knights are going to be my warlord but instead Guilliman in a super heavy auxiliary detachment and then a spear head detachment of space marines with a Lieutenant, 1x Lascannon squad, 1x Plasma canon squad and a heavy Bolter squad.
So the plan is to use house Mortan for the knights +1 to hit so the gallants thunder strike(paragon gauntlet) still hits on 2+. I will then use CPs to take Ion Bulwark, paragon gauntlet on one knight then armour of the sainted ion and landstrider on the other. This makes both knights at least capable of 4+ invulnerable saves, however depending on opponent can swap to make one a 3+ and rely on the 2+ armour of the other.
Space marines will use salamander tactics which allows me to use a free re-roll to hit and wound roll for when Guilliman aura bible is out of range. Guilliman will deploy directly behind the gallants to prevent being targeted which will allow him to provide his auras for longer ultimately granting the gallants +3” to advance and charge distances and the use of full tilt stratagem will allow at least one 1st turn charge, plus re-roll hits of 1 so the gallants will most likely hit much of the time and wounding most things on 2+. At this point the 2nd gallant could try heroic intervention and Guilliman if he is close enough. Helverins do there best to stay mobile and keep the re-roll from Guilliman if possible and focus on what they can see. Devastators stay back field and provide fire support first turn getting Guillimans re-roll 1s to hit and the lieutants re-roll to wound from turn 2 using the chapter tactics to re-roll.
Overall I believe the list itself to have good synergy, target saturation and hope the deployments and rolls go in its favour.
As someone who used Mortan at an event, I’d suggest that you’ll be better off running something else if you are only running 2 Gallants and Helverins. (based on your ideas anyway)
Gallants already hit on 2’s and the Paragon Gauntlet doesn’t have a -1 to hit penalty. As such, you’re either wasting 2CP just to get the flat 8 damage (2 because you're paying for 2 relics), or there is no real point in taking Mortan. In addition, I feel you’ll be using the feet attacks waaaaaaay more than you will be using the normal Gauntlet. As such, the +1 to hit is also going to waste on the 2nd Gallant.
Now, the stratagem does work reasonable well for the Helverins, but, against most flyers you’re going to need to pair it with the +1 to hit strat, so you are hitting on 2’s and re-rolling 1s for BobbyG. The issue here though, is you’re only starting with 10CP and you’re already spending 6 of those on WL traits and Relics for the Knights. Using the combo on 1 Helverin will leave you with 2 CP, and you’ll want to save 1 just in case BobbyG gets killed – so, overall, you’re not really doing much with the final CP, maybe getting Death Grip off once.
BUT, that then means you can’t take advantage of Landstrider, as you won’t have the 2 CP spare to Full Tilt turn 1. (though this then puts you outside of BobbyGs re-rolls, so prob not really worth taking Landstrider).
Personally, I think you should run either Griffith for a base 6 attacks on the Gallants, Cadmus for the re-roll wounds, Krast for re-roll 1’s outside of BobbyGs aura for melee attacks or Taranis for the 6+++. Krast is made a little redundant if you can keep BobbyG within range of the Knights though, and you’ll be wounding most things on 2’s a lot of the time, so Cadmus might be overkill. Griffith makes you more killy, and Taranis makes you more survivable.
I took the plunge and bought my Preceptor, and am going to make a list of 1x Preceptor, 2x Helverin, 4x Warglaives with 2x Guard Battalions.
Anyone use Preceptors recently?
With the new Strat giving everything cover t1, going second with Taranis Armigers (6 of them) gives you 72 T7 2+/5++/6+++ wounds, and those are some beefy numbers.
I took the plunge and bought my Preceptor, and am going to make a list of 1x Preceptor, 2x Helverin, 4x Warglaives with 2x Guard Battalions.
Anyone use Preceptors recently?
With the new Strat giving everything cover t1, going second with Taranis Armigers (6 of them) gives you 72 T7 2+/5++/6+++ wounds, and those are some beefy numbers.
Not really sure the armigers will benifit massively from being 2+ instead of 3+ turn 1 if you go second. Which I could see a lot of people choosing to do so against your list as your light on long range volume of high AP weapons to make going second still hurt even with the cover bonus.
Armigers are not bad unuts but with only your preceptor I would expect it to be focused down fairly swiftly which does limit the damage potential of the armigers.
Wounding on a 2, rerolling 1s. 97.22% chance of that going through.
No saves unless you have a 2+, which a lot of characters don't, so we'll assume no save. 100% chance.
And then, the damage roll, which is d6, rerollable with a CP if you don't roll high enough. 75% chance of one-shotting a 4 wound character, 55.56% chance of one-shotting a 5 wound character.
Total odds:
56.71% chance of one-shotting a 4 wound character.
42.01% chance of one-shotting a 5 wound character.
The odds are even higher than this. You are not factoring in Grand Strategist.
It makes the chance of hitting 88.888%. (3+ rerollable)
No your factoring in a non Knights re roll into a comment on the price increases being uncalled for in mono knights.
Without your guard reroll and CP oathbreaker was the correct number of CP, mono knights just got aucker punched because of abuses only IG soup could pull of.
I mean...really the only stratagem that should have gone up in cost was the taranis knight resurrection strat IMO and the Castellan needs to go up in points. The others are unfounded. Order of companions is basically unplayable now for knights players.
Order of Companions doubles the damage a Castellan does. Hell yes its worth 3 CP.
Its worth a lot less for other knights obviously as they don't bring a buttload of random dice weapons.
It certainly helps the castellan the most. Because it's almost always wounding on 2's or 3's with it's 2 big guns. Would have made more sense to nerf the obviously OP cawls wrath to not have 9 str and possibly just cost more for the castellan to play. It is an absolutely useless stratagem for any other knight now.
I took the plunge and bought my Preceptor, and am going to make a list of 1x Preceptor, 2x Helverin, 4x Warglaives with 2x Guard Battalions.
Anyone use Preceptors recently?
With the new Strat giving everything cover t1, going second with Taranis Armigers (6 of them) gives you 72 T7 2+/5++/6+++ wounds, and those are some beefy numbers.
Not really sure the armigers will benifit massively from being 2+ instead of 3+ turn 1 if you go second. Which I could see a lot of people choosing to do so against your list as your light on long range volume of high AP weapons to make going second still hurt even with the cover bonus.
Armigers are not bad unuts but with only your preceptor I would expect it to be focused down fairly swiftly which does limit the damage potential of the armigers.
This is why you play house tyranis.
Focus down the perceptor...fine. It comes back - fights at full for 1 CP. Still buffs the rest of my armigers. Plus you can put the helm somewhere else if you want too. To make targeting the armiger buffers even less effective. The smartest thing will always be to shoot the armigers first.
Armigers are always going to start in cover anyways - they obtain it quite easily with their massive base and your own knights obstruct you.
He doesn't guaranteed come back. Even 4cp spent that's only a 75% chance and you're only going to pull that trick a couple of times. Seems risky to me.
MrMoustaffa wrote: He doesn't guaranteed come back. Even 4cp spent that's only a 75% chance and you're only going to pull that trick a couple of times. Seems risky to me.
75% chance is really good to bring back a super heavy. Plus if he stands up and they don't have CC units to take you out - you are automatically going to fight at full power that turn for 1 more CP. Plus you can do it again. It totally needed to go up to 3 CP. That was a fair nerf to me. It's also 6+ FNP - a lot of times they fail to kill you turn 1.
MrMoustaffa wrote: He doesn't guaranteed come back. Even 4cp spent that's only a 75% chance and you're only going to pull that trick a couple of times. Seems risky to me.
75% chance is really good to bring back a super heavy. Plus if he stands up and they don't have CC units to take you out - you are automatically going to fight at full power that turn for 1 more CP. Plus you can do it again. It totally needed to go up to 3 CP. That was a fair nerf to me. It's also 6+ FNP - a lot of times they fail to kill you turn 1.
It had to go up because 360 points of guard gets you 10 CP for the price of a gallant.
Tyranis became unplayable without Guard as needing 3 CP for a 42% chance of d3 wounds is not viable with knights list CP levels,
Or 4CP for a 63% chance.
It can't comeback if it exploded. Also the 6+ fnp doesn't work on mortal wounds.
So I have a tournament coming up this Sunday, have made some final tweaks to my list but would like some feedback, particularly on the Knights bit with my choice of Relics and Traits.
Guard Battalion
CC w. Power Sword
CC
Infantry w. Mortar
Infantry w. Mortar
Infantry w. Mortar
Infantry
Knight Super-Heavy Detachment
House Hawkshroud
Gallant w. Sanctuary + Fearsome Reputation
Errant (Can't change this one as it's not magentised)
Crusader w. RFBC + Endless Fury + Ion Bulwark
MrMoustaffa wrote: He doesn't guaranteed come back. Even 4cp spent that's only a 75% chance and you're only going to pull that trick a couple of times. Seems risky to me.
75% chance is really good to bring back a super heavy. Plus if he stands up and they don't have CC units to take you out - you are automatically going to fight at full power that turn for 1 more CP. Plus you can do it again. It totally needed to go up to 3 CP. That was a fair nerf to me. It's also 6+ FNP - a lot of times they fail to kill you turn 1.
It had to go up because 360 points of guard gets you 10 CP for the price of a gallant.
Tyranis became unplayable without Guard as needing 3 CP for a 42% chance of d3 wounds is not viable with knights list CP levels,
Or 4CP for a 63% chance.
It can't comeback if it exploded. Also the 6+ fnp doesn't work on mortal wounds.
The first roll is much closer to 50% as you will CP if you explode. Only 3% of the time will you explode with a command reroll (most the time you are going to do this anyways) Then you have a flat 50% chance to stand back up.
If you double explode though you wont be using the stratagem at all. If you CP an explosion you are at 50% and if you don't you are at 75%. 82% of the time you are at a 75%. It is really tough on opponents.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: Armor of the Sainted Ion will generally be better than Sanctuary.
The 2+ armor? Yep. It's great for gallants.
A lot of times the 2+ save will give you a 4+ to shooting too and most CC weapons are ap-3 at most - so a 5+ save there too.
MrMoustaffa wrote: He doesn't guaranteed come back. Even 4cp spent that's only a 75% chance and you're only going to pull that trick a couple of times. Seems risky to me.
75% chance is really good to bring back a super heavy. Plus if he stands up and they don't have CC units to take you out - you are automatically going to fight at full power that turn for 1 more CP. Plus you can do it again. It totally needed to go up to 3 CP. That was a fair nerf to me. It's also 6+ FNP - a lot of times they fail to kill you turn 1.
It had to go up because 360 points of guard gets you 10 CP for the price of a gallant.
Tyranis became unplayable without Guard as needing 3 CP for a 42% chance of d3 wounds is not viable with knights list CP levels,
Or 4CP for a 63% chance.
It can't comeback if it exploded. Also the 6+ fnp doesn't work on mortal wounds.
The first roll is much closer to 50% as you will CP if you explode. Only 3% of the time will you explode with a command reroll (most the time you are going to do this anyways) Then you have a flat 50% chance to stand back up.
If you double explode though you wont be using the stratagem at all. If you CP an explosion you are at 50% and if you don't you are at 75%. 82% of the time you are at a 75%. It is really tough on opponents.
So over all a 71% chance with 4 CP spent just to stand up. Then more CP for resurgence. So over 50% of a knight lists in game CP to pull it off once.
Annoyingly I suspect that as it will still see play in Imperium tournament lists, so resurgence will probably be next to get a CP bump making atleast the 32 mandatory even in casual play and the 64 for competitive knights.
Thankfully I didn't paint my knights to a house so it's on to a new house to find a workable mono build list.
Valkyrie wrote: If I'm assaulting something that's pretty tough/FNP/good Invulnerable save, would it be better to use the Reaper or Titanic Feet?
Obviously the Reaper does much more damage at a higher strength, but you only have 1/3 the attacks compared to using the feet.
IMHO it's all about the tap dancing knight in CC the gauntlet is good for death gripping strategum but shear volume is the best answer to invulnerable saves. Also feet are still s8 ap-2 Dd3 not exactly a trivial attack.
Valkyrie wrote: If I'm assaulting something that's pretty tough/FNP/good Invulnerable save, would it be better to use the Reaper or Titanic Feet?
Obviously the Reaper does much more damage at a higher strength, but you only have 1/3 the attacks compared to using the feet.
Against T6 4++ the Reaper will do on average 1 wound more then the Feet would (6.67 vs 5.34)
But.
The Reaper has a much bigger deviation. (5.37 vs 3.17) so the Feet would do some damage more reliably then the Reaper but it has a higher (and lower) potential.
This is the kind of question that can be more or less calculated and see what works against what best. Against T8, 3+ save reaper is 8.9, fist is 13.3 and stomp 5.3. With 4++ it's 4 for feet, 6.67 for fist and 5.33 for reaper. The worse inv save the more it helps fist/reaper of course.
Then it's just matter of deciding how much you need reliability than maximum output as the fist/reaper will generally be more likely to bad rolling screwing you up and sometimes you don't NEED maximum output. Imagine you are facing that 4++ guy and need just 2 wounds in. In average all will kill it but fist and reaper would be more likely fail in the process. With more dice from stomp you will likely roll closer to the average.
So use the site provided by Ordana to math hammer various targets. Pure average damage there's only one right choice per T and save target. Then just start to think when lesser damage output is acceptable in favour of less chance of whiffing it
MrMoustaffa wrote: He doesn't guaranteed come back. Even 4cp spent that's only a 75% chance and you're only going to pull that trick a couple of times. Seems risky to me.
75% chance is really good to bring back a super heavy. Plus if he stands up and they don't have CC units to take you out - you are automatically going to fight at full power that turn for 1 more CP. Plus you can do it again. It totally needed to go up to 3 CP. That was a fair nerf to me. It's also 6+ FNP - a lot of times they fail to kill you turn 1.
It had to go up because 360 points of guard gets you 10 CP for the price of a gallant.
Tyranis became unplayable without Guard as needing 3 CP for a 42% chance of d3 wounds is not viable with knights list CP levels,
Or 4CP for a 63% chance.
It can't comeback if it exploded. Also the 6+ fnp doesn't work on mortal wounds.
The first roll is much closer to 50% as you will CP if you explode. Only 3% of the time will you explode with a command reroll (most the time you are going to do this anyways) Then you have a flat 50% chance to stand back up.
If you double explode though you wont be using the stratagem at all. If you CP an explosion you are at 50% and if you don't you are at 75%. 82% of the time you are at a 75%. It is really tough on opponents.
So over all a 71% chance with 4 CP spent just to stand up. Then more CP for resurgence. So over 50% of a knight lists in game CP to pull it off once.
Annoyingly I suspect that as it will still see play in Imperium tournament lists, so resurgence will probably be next to get a CP bump making atleast the 32 mandatory even in casual play and the 64 for competitive knights.
Thankfully I didn't paint my knights to a house so it's on to a new house to find a workable mono build list.
Most the IK list are running with at least a batallion in support. so that is 6+5+3 = 14. Probably will spend 2 pre game. Could resurect a knight 3 times. Not really needed though. You res them once and make them kill it again next turn and you reevaluate. Sometimes it's better to let a knight die so you can blow it up in the middle of their army. Knights are amazing dude. Control of life and death...very powerful.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Valkyrie wrote: If I'm assaulting something that's pretty tough/FNP/good Invulnerable save, would it be better to use the Reaper or Titanic Feet?
Obviously the Reaper does much more damage at a higher strength, but you only have 1/3 the attacks compared to using the feet.
Unfortunately - there is never any reason to use anything but the titanic feet. Unless you are facing t8 or higher targets. Then what's interesting is there is no practical difference between Reaper and fist (if you are a galant - fist hits on 3's and wounds on 2's and reaper hits on 2's and wounds on 3's) I choose fist because if you kill a knight with the fist you can throw it for mortal wounds. The damage is exactly the same though.
Xenomancers wrote: Unfortunately - there is never any reason to use anything but the titanic feet. Unless you are facing t8 or higher targets. Then what's interesting is there is no practical difference between Reaper and fist (if you are a galant - fist hits on 3's and wounds on 2's and reaper hits on 2's and wounds on 3's) I choose fist because if you kill a knight with the fist you can throw it for mortal wounds. The damage is exactly the same though.
Let's see. T8, 3+, gallant attacking:
Reaper: 13.89
fist: 16.67
stomp: 8.32
add in 5++:
reaper: 11.11
fist: 11.11
stomp: 8.32
Then let's see crusader.
Reaper: 8.89
fist: 10
stomp: 5.33
add in 5++:
reaper: 7.11
fist: 6.67
stomp: 5.33
You were saying? There's definitely a target for fist&reaper over stomp and also reason when gallant could be picking up between weapons. And of course gallant isn't only ones with those.
JNAProductions wrote: I coulda sworn Reaper and Fist had the same AP, so with one as a 2+ hit/3+ wound and the other reversed, wouldn't they do the same damage?
2x Guard battalions including a punisher commander and 3 mortar HWSs
Loads seem good! Taranis for 6+++ and resurrection, Raven for the expensive strat plus mobility, krast for melee plus the headsman's mark on the castellan, or possibly mortan for their ignore modifiers strat for the castellan and a little more CC punch.
Looks good on paper, but simply going mechanics and paying the CP for machine spirit strategum is better 90% of the time.
Unless your regularly playing against someone who likes to wound multiple knights ovrr focusing on each one in turn.
What about the viability of solo Renegade Knights lists?
Fir funzies, go for it, the ability to use all the knight models and mix and match should open up some interesting build options.
However like imperial Knight's if your trying to go competitive adding a battalion for bodies to block the scary CC threat will always be a plus, not to mention the possibility of adding DP's, Primarchs, Ariman etc to make one nasty squew list.
What about the viability of solo Renegade Knights lists?
Fir funzies, go for it, the ability to use all the knight models and mix and match should open up some interesting build options.
However like imperial Knight's if your trying to go competitive adding a battalion for bodies to block the scary CC threat will always be a plus, not to mention the possibility of adding DP's, Primarchs, Ariman etc to make one nasty squew list.
Thanks for the answer.
But you're saying that solo RK are not competitive? :(
Do I really need to add some allies in solo tournament?
(I've posted a RK solo list in the army list section, feel free to tell me what you think about it)
Renegade knights are just plain not as good as non renegade knights. In pure form and pure ik is not that competative
Now they can make one strong knight and the double AGC isstrong as a single knight but you can only boost one. Youll also struggle with objectives snd have no screen.
Hey guys i got a question about some Knight setups:
i read a few times that the Warden is a good candidate for the Thunderstrike gauntlet and the paragon gauntlet, why?
Is endless fury not the better option and the simple chainsword? Maybe you could explain me this^^
My current Knight lance setup atm is:
Errant with sword and Landstraider
Gallant with Paragon gauntlet
Warden with Enldess Fury and sword
House Taranis, allies with my admech
Maybe you guys have some tipps and tricks^^ i never played a knight lance, because i own this 3 Knights just for 1week^^
Both are strong but usually you would put endless fury on a crusader its not either or its both. You have no shooty knight so its too good things in competition the question is will your wardrn hang back or charge in
This depends on my opponet, because i will try it competitiv. Tomorow i got a test game against Thousand Sons with Magnus and Morti, so i gues in this case the Warden and Errant will shoot and the Gallant hopfully will knock out Morti or Magnus in the first round^^
Ya both options are strong but i dont see a reason for an WS3 Knight with an -1 modifier for the thunderstrike gauntlet to use, if there come another -1 modifier its over^^
Ok the Deathgrip Gem is awesome, but only for this?
Ya i know that the paragon doesnt give -1, but isnt the Relic gatling better on a Warden? And you wound with the sword almost all on a 2+, only T8 not.
Plz dont misunderstand me^^, i try to understand ^^
Well it makes the warden better at different things. By going relic gauntlet plus certain household traits it could punch as hard as a gallant while retaining the avenger cannon. It'd also let the warden death grip with decent accuracy which isn't bad either.
Provided it's not your warlord, you could choose the relic based on opponent. If you're fighting hordes, go endless fury. If you're fighting other knights, the gauntlet is probably a better bet.
U02dah4 wrote: Renegade knights are just plain not as good as non renegade knights. In pure form and pure ik is not that competative
Now they can make one strong knight and the double AGC isstrong as a single knight but you can only boost one. Youll also struggle with objectives snd have no screen.
Actually i was thinking to boost the Dominus with "Trail of destruction" because of supercharge on the plasma decimator.
Well, if I wanted to play objectives, I'll defintely not play solo RK, I just want to try to annihlate my opponent
Sometimes the 4CP at critical moment will be devastating. Most of the time, using this "counter stratagem" once per gamemaybe enough to win the game. For example, if it denies your "use the top profile to shoot and fight" stratagem, or denies your "prepared position", or "rotate ion-shield", then you are basically fxxxed.... Dark Eldar HAS the firepower to bring you down before you get a chance to ultilize these stratagem again.
3x3 Mortar Teams, 6x Infantry w/ a mortar and sniper each
Was against:
2x Gallants
1x Crusader
Normal blood angels battalion and then a Culexus
We got to the end of turn 4, I won on ITC Secondary points for the purpose of our game, and figured I'd give some feedback.
Loved the Armigers. Genuinely, loved them. To the point where I would happily run 3x3 of them instead of 6 and a Preceptor, but I'll get to that later on.
Warglaives: Surprisingly shooty. As long as my rolls weren't incredibly poor, while I was within range of the Preceptor I was all but guaranteed to hit. 4x3 36" Melta Lances are no joke against enemy armor, and the same is true for their melee attacks when they come swinging in. Helverins did fairly well, but without any actual flyers they were more swingy than the Warglaives. I've found that running both with a preceptor is, as anticipated, a little awkward because you end up wanting them to stay close, but that's the opposite of where they want to be, so in future games I probably would just leave them as far back as possible, in opposite corners of deployment, and just not worry about the reroll 1s aura.
Preceptor: He was a beefy boy. Armor of Sainted Ion and Iron Bulwark, coupled with Taranis made him so tanky it was crazy. Didn't die all game. The mix of being able to pump out medium quality fire and higher intensity fire was nice, but unfortunately the weapon itself was wildly inconsistent. The 2d6 firing mode and d6 firing mode is just... it feels bad. I'd rather see this become either 4d3/2d3 or just switch it to flat damage, a Preceptor is so expensive (almost as much as a crusader but with half the guns) I don't see the harm in givimg them a 10/4 shot flat mode or something. Just too random. On top of that, the aura is WAY too small. 6" is nuts. If essentially guaranteed two things the whole game:
1.) I'm going to block my own movement if I'm not very, very careful.
2.) I suppose this is more of a positive one, but if anyone tried to get close to my preceptor, hunting pack becomes very easy to use. I don't think that ends up being worth it, though.
Try House Raven with the Perceptor + Armiger configuration, the movement boost let’s you reconfigure bonus groups on the fly so feels less constricted.
I've been running Taranis because having one Knight that buffs the other Knights is basically a huge "Kill me immediately" sign, and having the ability to stand back up is huge for the Preceptor.
Raven would let me be more mobile, absolutely, especially with the armigers since their Guns are already assault,
To me, it feels like it would end up being a minor benefit instead of the FNP rolls, which across mass amounts of Armigers really adds up, at this point with 6 of them it's basically a free 7th Armiger in wounds.
What I like most about Raven is that it lets you move fast while also removing the penalty for moving fast. Your entire army could just move into your opponent’s side of the board turn 1 if go mono Raven in a mono IK list.
Before the fix to SHD CP, it was looking like we’d have to play with minimal to no CP in a mono IK list. House Raven had the best baked in ability, as it was on all the time. Hawkshroud definitely next best.
Think I'm gonna try this next next. A Gallant with Landsrider and the +1 to hit for armigers relic coupled with a Preceptor will allow me to split half on one side half on the other. Think it has some teeth, will be happy to try this option out.
So I´m toying with the idea of adding in 1-3 knight(s) to my Imperial force (Blood Angels or AdMech).
Could someone give me a round up about the most competitive choices? Excluding the Castellan and including forgeworld knights.
I have picked up the codex today and will be starting a pure Imperial Knight army, I have also picked up and got built 2 of the Armiger Helverin.
Could someone explain how I go about building a Imperial Knights force using detachments, battalions or super heavy etc as I am having some trouble using battlescribe.
And also, if running a pure knight list, which knights and loadouts are recommended, I like the house hawkshroud rules so would probably go around that.
I have picked up the codex today and will be starting a pure Imperial Knight army, I have also picked up and got built 2 of the Armiger Helverin.
Could someone explain how I go about building a Imperial Knights force using detachments, battalions or super heavy etc as I am having some trouble using battlescribe.
And also, if running a pure knight list, which knights and loadouts are recommended, I like the house hawkshroud rules so would probably go around that.
Cheers
you use the Super Heavy detachment for Knight codex. (or the aux-super heavy
Castellan without companion still shoots. Knight that stays dead doesn't. Castellan is somewhat less reliant on the strategem than one whose selling point is coming back from dead ;-)
I've been running Taranis because having one Knight that buffs the other Knights is basically a huge "Kill me immediately" sign, and having the ability to stand back up is huge for the Preceptor.
Raven would let me be more mobile, absolutely, especially with the armigers since their Guns are already assault,
To me, it feels like it would end up being a minor benefit instead of the FNP rolls, which across mass amounts of Armigers really adds up, at this point with 6 of them it's basically a free 7th Armiger in wounds.
You've got the right idea. The FNP is crucial. Just take your wound total and mutiply by .18 - that's how many additional wounds you get from non mortal sources.
Raven is really only useful on turn 1. Because you can't advance and charge without using a 2 point stratagem (which you can use on a tyranis gallant anyways). After turn 1 - you don;t need to advance to charge with a 12" move. Raven is obviously a good choice for a castellan because he has OP damage - so multiplying it gives you even more OP damage - that will be gone soon and Raven will all but disappear. FNP is incredible - knights standing up is hilariously strong. Also - tyranis has an incredibly good relic with the 48" range always 2d6 damage melta (great for your crusader) and endless fury can go on the other.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: Castellan without companion still shoots. Knight that stays dead doesn't. Castellan is somewhat less reliant on the strategem than one whose selling point is coming back from dead ;-)
There are other ways to boost your damage too. Like Gman.
Ordana wrote: Gman pales in comparison to re-rolling 1's on the amount of shots and damage. Especially on D3's.
It's really not that pale...3 CP a turn compared to Gman who buffs all your knights in an aura. He's also a massive CC beast. I'm not trying to say he's better - just saying that there are ways to buff the damage of a tyranis castellan too.
Ordana wrote: Gman pales in comparison to re-rolling 1's on the amount of shots and damage. Especially on D3's.
The thing is, Gman provides that 3CP you needed to use that Stratagem. While he can reclaim 1CP every round. Also, if your Castellen unfortunately got charged, provided it is not dead, Gman let you rerolling 1s for you kicking big feet as well. And he himself is nothing to sneeze at in combat.
True, his 400pts makes him a joke in competitive set up. But if you are in a less competitive environment. He might help you to patch your hole if your IK are focused in shooting ability.
Ordana wrote: Gman pales in comparison to re-rolling 1's on the amount of shots and damage. Especially on D3's.
The thing is, Gman provides that 3CP you needed to use that Stratagem. While he can reclaim 1CP every round. Also, if your Castellen unfortunately got charged, provided it is not dead, Gman let you rerolling 1s for you kicking big feet as well. And he himself is nothing to sneeze at in combat.
True, his 400pts makes him a joke in competitive set up. But if you are in a less competitive environment. He might help you to patch your hole if your IK are focused in shooting ability.
Gman is for a pure knight list.
He's not a joke. It's one of the most optimal ways to run knights IMO.
Best lists I've used with him in is 2x crusader 2x gallant.
Clearly not as good as IG and Knights but still very strong vs a lot a lists.
Do you guys think the paragon gauntlet is better for an Gallant or armour of sainted ion as relic? And the Ion Bullwark trait of course^^
Hitting on 2+ with the Paragon is freakin awesome but the 2+ save is awesome too and in most cases this 2+ save is like the 5++ invuln from sanctuary relic in close combat, i could need some help^^
Hesselhof wrote: I will use a Gallant single Knight for my Admech.
Do you guys think the paragon gauntlet is better for an Gallant or armour of sainted ion as relic? And the Ion Bullwark trait of course^^
Hitting on 2+ with the Paragon is freakin awesome but the 2+ save is awesome too and in most cases this 2+ save is like the 5++ invuln from sanctuary relic in close combat, i could need some help^^
I'd go for Ion Bulwark on any single knight. 3++ to shooting solves most of your problems with rotate ion shields. Realistically the Gallant is going to be stomping most of the time and paragon gauntlet is really only useful for the deathgrip stratagem (which is awesome). No reason not to take the gauntlet though unless you take a carapace weapon. In which case the relic stormspear rocket is pretty nice.
I don't really worry about gallants taking CC damage. The majority of stuff they charge can't really hurt them and the things that can are probably getting 1 shot by it anyways.
Kind of a random question, anyone else had one of their knights picked for Kingslayer in ITC for an easy 4vp? My Raven Castellan had that happen the other day and my opponent only needed to do 16 wounds to it to max points, didn't even have to kill it.
From what I understand the moment you make a knight a character it becomes a prime candidate for this mission. It seems like a no brainer for the opponent but I'd never heard anyone mention this happening online.
Question regarding the Renegade box set. If I understand it correctly, the set comes with two chassis but only one set of weapon parts. Would that be enough to build the two chassis into an Errant and a Gallant?
Sterling191 wrote: Question regarding the Renegade box set. If I understand it correctly, the set comes with two chassis but only one set of weapon parts. Would that be enough to build the two chassis into an Errant and a Gallant?
Got a friendly tournament coming up in a few weeks, unsure if I'll be attending yet due to work commitments but am thinking of a list.
Last time it was a 1500pt tournament, I ran the following.
Gallant
Errant
Crusader
2x CC 4x Infantry Squads w. 3x Mortars
The list was very strong. Game 1 was against Knights + Deathguard, tabled him. Game 2 was against Custodes Jetbikes (14 of them), tabled him as well. Game 3 was against a Raven Castellan, couple of Russes and as many Guardsmen as possible, and I got tabled against that.
This next tournament is 1750, and I know for sure the same bloke will be running the Castellan/Guard list, so I've come up with another list idea to try.
Castellan w. Cawl's Wrath
Valiant
Gallant
2x CC 4x Infantry Squad.
Plan is to basically play him at his own game. Raven Castellan shoot-out while the Valiant and Gallant gets stuck in. I'd really like to use the Valiant if possible, it was a birthday gift from my fiance, and I can imagine combined with a Castellan it'll be even nastier.
I imagine your game vs him will come down to who gets first turn and can nuke the others Castellan down first.
With that in mind, have you considered alternative houses to raven? Taranis stratagem darkest hour could be a saving grace if he gets first turn and guns yours down. On a 4+ roll you can stand back up and use the shoot @top profile strat. With a reroll on darkest hour you have a 75% chance to get back up. It’s expensive but could be decisive
Anyone here making use of The styrix? I find the natural 4++ and 5++ in cc combined with the 2+ armor and knight senechal make for a horridly nasty thing to kill.
I imagine your game vs him will come down to who gets first turn and can nuke the others Castellan down first.
With that in mind, have you considered alternative houses to raven? Taranis stratagem darkest hour could be a saving grace if he gets first turn and guns yours down. On a 4+ roll you can stand back up and use the shoot @top profile strat. With a reroll on darkest hour you have a 75% chance to get back up. It’s expensive but could be decisive
That's not a bad idea. I'm not so sure about the Taranis though, 6+ FNP is nice but does it beat Raven or Hawkshroud. With the strategems, I usually either use Noble Sacrifice or Valiant Last Stand, the latter of which was incredibly useful in the Custodes match, got a free round of CC with the Gallant and Errant.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gendoikari87 wrote: Anyone here making use of The styrix? I find the natural 4++ and 5++ in cc combined with the 2+ armor and knight senechal make for a horridly nasty thing to kill.
I think it can be decent, but it's pretty expensive at 475pts. I'd wait out until CA incase he gets a points reduction. Also the 5++ is only once per turn, it's not a huge boost at all really.
gendoikari87 wrote: The 5++ is not once per turn, your thinking of the repair ability. Im talking about the invuln
Fair enough, I'm still unsure if that actually makes him worth it however.
Additionally, are there any ideas of how the Castellan is going to change in CA? I'd assume a points hike, although I'm worried if they'll simply make a couple of changes to the Dominus chassis in general, which would suck for any Valiant fans like myself.
gendoikari87 wrote: as long as they don't touch the questoris chassis I'll be fine. IF the dominus has to eat it so the questoris is fine, so be it.
Unfortunately I suspect that it won't be just the dominus class knights that get trash teir nerfed, Typical GW will nerf their strategums again or CP generation.
Knights are going to end up being only competitive with the 32 douches.
Looking to mash up my IK with my Custodes, plan is an outrider of shield captain, vexilla, and 3x3 bikes leaving me 916 pts leftover for a superheavy detachment. What would you all suggest?
Right now I’ve looked at Gallant+Errant+Warglaive, open to any suggestions though. I played Knights from first codex through 7th, just haven’t touched them in 8th and looking to dust them off; I have most of the FW knights and all of the questoris options prior to the 8th codex but am willing to purchase others.
Hi all I'm thinking of starting a knight list in the new year and I have a few questions that I would like answers for if that's ok
1 is a pure knight list fun to play with and against
2 are they semi competitive ?
3 are the forgeworld Knights any good
4 anyone got any good 1750 pts list
They can be really fun to play with, but, often they can be “anti-fun” to play against. If it’s a casual setting, people need to know that you’ll be bringing 3 or 4 Knights so they can plan on having ways to deal with them and survive.
Pure Knights are one of the competitive “Gatekeeper” lists. You can either beat it, or, you’ll get smashed by it in a tournament.
Knights and Guard however, are extremely strong.
Not played any of the FW Knights myself, but, I hear that a couple of them are potentially worth considering.
At 1750, depends how hard you want to go and whether or not you want to wait for Chapter Approved. Currently you’ll easily be able to get a Castellan, 2 Gallants and either 2 Helverin or Warglaives into 1750 with points to spare. All depends on what you want to do though.
Kdash wrote: They can be really fun to play with, but, often they can be “anti-fun” to play against. If it’s a casual setting, people need to know that you’ll be bringing 3 or 4 Knights so they can plan on having ways to deal with them and survive.
Pure Knights are one of the competitive “Gatekeeper” lists. You can either beat it, or, you’ll get smashed by it in a tournament.
Knights and Guard however, are extremely strong.
Not played any of the FW Knights myself, but, I hear that a couple of them are potentially worth considering.
At 1750, depends how hard you want to go and whether or not you want to wait for Chapter Approved. Currently you’ll easily be able to get a Castellan, 2 Gallants and either 2 Helverin or Warglaives into 1750 with points to spare. All depends on what you want to do though.
[/quote
Thanks for the info I only realy play in tournaments now
Thanks I keep forgetting chapter approved is not to far off I won't be buying anything till the new year so can wait to see what changes happen
Oldman Lee wrote: Hi all I'm thinking of starting a knight list in the new year and I have a few questions that I would like answers for if that's ok
1 is a pure knight list fun to play with and against
2 are they semi competitive ?
3 are the forgeworld Knights any good
4 anyone got any good 1750 pts list
Thanks for looking
1 Similar to Kdask fun to play with most people hate them though (Mainly because they haven't got a clue how to counter knights)
2 mostly a gate keeper more than a genuine contender listAldari soup eats them for breakfast
3 some are some are horibly Overcosted they also are going to have to survive CA 2018
4 Really what is or isn't going to be a good list will depend on CA
U02dah4 wrote: They are a rock list sure they crush scissors but paper gets them everytime
Yes, Harlequin jetbike spam with their D6 haywire shot each will destroy basically any IK without any problem. Any laugh away watching IK shooting accuracy like Ork accuracy.
Been looking at Crusader options for the gatling cannon, I see endless fury taken a lot, but blessed by the sacristans seems like it would be a better option. 2 extra shots and extra hits on 6s vs a straight mortal wound. Against higher toughness targets and anything with a better than 4+ save, the blessed sacristans looks better.
UMGuy wrote: Been looking at Crusader options for the gatling cannon, I see endless fury taken a lot, but blessed by the sacristans seems like it would be a better option. 2 extra shots and extra hits on 6s vs a straight mortal wound. Against higher toughness targets and anything with a better than 4+ save, the blessed sacristans looks better.
Maybe even both, endless fury and blessed rfbc
Honestly, I agree and think Endless is a bit overhyped.
UMGuy wrote: Been looking at Crusader options for the gatling cannon, I see endless fury taken a lot, but blessed by the sacristans seems like it would be a better option. 2 extra shots and extra hits on 6s vs a straight mortal wound. Against higher toughness targets and anything with a better than 4+ save, the blessed sacristans looks better.
Maybe even both, endless fury and blessed rfbc
Honestly, I agree and think Endless is a bit overhyped.
I don't know, Endless Fury is pretty spicy to me. I've used it and it absolutely put in work. Blessed by the Sacristans means you don't have Ion Bulwark on your Crusader, but of course if you already have it on another Knight it is probably good to have.
gendoikari87 wrote: Anyone here making use of The styrix? I find the natural 4++ and 5++ in cc combined with the 2+ armor and knight senechal make for a horridly nasty thing to kill.
In my opinion, Krast Styrix is stronger than Raven Castellan when paired with AdMech. A great mix of anti-Titan/vehicle shooting and melee.
I would use the Krast Relic and WLT. Skip the House Tradition and take the Knight as an Auxiliary.
UMGuy wrote: Been looking at Crusader options for the gatling cannon, I see endless fury taken a lot, but blessed by the sacristans seems like it would be a better option. 2 extra shots and extra hits on 6s vs a straight mortal wound. Against higher toughness targets and anything with a better than 4+ save, the blessed sacristans looks better.
Maybe even both, endless fury and blessed rfbc
Honestly, I agree and think Endless is a bit overhyped.
I don't know, Endless Fury is pretty spicy to me. I've used it and it absolutely put in work. Blessed by the Sacristans means you don't have Ion Bulwark on your Crusader, but of course if you already have it on another Knight it is probably good to have.
I was excited for it at first, but the math doesn't add much. A normal gatling averages 8 hits, Endless averages 11.67. So it's just a hair under 50% more hits than the regular. Wound-wise, it's even less. Against T4 3+ (and why are you shooting it at these?) the 8 hits gets you 3.56 wounds while the 11.67 gets you about 5. So 1.5 more wounds, ish, for a relic slot. Against T6 2+ (like a Custodes Jetbike) it's 2 wounds vs. 3 woundsish. T7 3+ (standard vehicle) it's 1.78 vs. 2.5ish, same for against another Knight. Even against something like Mortarion it's .89 vs. 1.33, probably one of the best improvements but still not a lot to write home about for taking a relic slot.
For relics, I much prefer Armor of the Sainted Ion if I expect the Knight to be in melee range a lot, Cawl's Wrath if it's a Castellan, Helm of the Nameless Warrior for Gallants, maybe take Krast for the Headsman's Mark (which should improve your total amount of damage dealt to be about the same as Engless Fury, I think, but ALSO effects your other guns with the restriction it only works on big targets) and Thunder of Voltoris if you're Terryn (since the RFB badly needs a buff for how expensive if is). If I'm running a heavy Knight list and don't have a lot of bodies to grab objectives, I also sometimes snag the Banner of Macharius Triumphant for the ObSec bonus.
CA Article confirms FW Knights are getting less expensive. Here's hoping my Lancer gets some love and not just the Maegara. Would happily run Triple Gallant double Lancer.
It only says that the Magaera Questoris will go down.
Speaking if which, if this knight went down 150 points, would you take it?
Why/ Why not?
I think if it drops anywhere from 100 to 150 points it'll be used heavily.
UMGuy wrote: Been looking at Crusader options for the gatling cannon, I see endless fury taken a lot, but blessed by the sacristans seems like it would be a better option. 2 extra shots and extra hits on 6s vs a straight mortal wound. Against higher toughness targets and anything with a better than 4+ save, the blessed sacristans looks better.
Maybe even both, endless fury and blessed rfbc
Honestly, I agree and think Endless is a bit overhyped.
I don't know, Endless Fury is pretty spicy to me. I've used it and it absolutely put in work. Blessed by the Sacristans means you don't have Ion Bulwark on your Crusader, but of course if you already have it on another Knight it is probably good to have.
Its maths 2 extra shot is 11.6 hits vs 8 hits without almost 50% more output.
So against a T6 3+ 7.73 dam vs 5.33 dam ( expectancy 2.4 extra Dam)
Vs sacristans which will deal 1.33 mortal wounds on average as it triggers on the to wound roll not the to hit.
Have recently come into possession of a couple of Helverins and a Valiant. I've done some practice rolls and I'm not so sure the Helverins are actually as good as they seem. The flat 3-Damage Autocannons are nice, particularly when you consider how many shots they put out but the S7 really hurts them, they're in that weak spot, can't wound T4 on 2+, can't wound T8 on 4+. Perhaps I'm confusing their role, what would be a couple of example targets that they should go for?
Additionally, with the Valiant, are the rumoured point changes likely to affect the Valiant, or just the Castellan? Again, what would be the sort of targets to go for with the Valiant? The Harpoon is a beautiful weapon but can easily be mitigated by Invulnerable saves.
In both examples I also have 4 other Knights I can use; Castella, Gallant, Errant and Crusader.
Valkyrie wrote: Have recently come into possession of a couple of Helverins and a Valiant. I've done some practice rolls and I'm not so sure the Helverins are actually as good as they seem. The flat 3-Damage Autocannons are nice, particularly when you consider how many shots they put out but the S7 really hurts them, they're in that weak spot, can't wound T4 on 2+, can't wound T8 on 4+. Perhaps I'm confusing their role, what would be a couple of example targets that they should go for?
Additionally, with the Valiant, are the rumoured point changes likely to affect the Valiant, or just the Castellan? Again, what would be the sort of targets to go for with the Valiant? The Harpoon is a beautiful weapon but can easily be mitigated by Invulnerable saves.
In both examples I also have 4 other Knights I can use; Castella, Gallant, Errant and Crusader.
A Helverin pairs nicely with a gallant for taking up the spare points to take it to 500 ish points.
It's not great but tends to be ignored and can still contribute while holding an objective.
Dark eldar vehicles are prime targes for helverins. Anything that looks like them. Custodians. Necron vehicles(vs which warglaives gun's special rule helps them) etc
Will try them all out extensively with a Preceptor to see what they're worth against most armies (no one plays guard, and I mean NO ONE, in my flgs)
They just need FW to release another cc weapon or a inferno gun instead of the very efficient but probably very expensive thermal spear(build in cost for now) so we can drop their price even further down.
Will try them all out extensively with a Preceptor to see what they're worth against most armies (no one plays guard, and I mean NO ONE, in my flgs)
They just need FW to release another cc weapon or a inferno gun instead of the very efficient but probably very expensive thermal spear(build in cost for now) so we can drop their price even further down.
They're fun, and the melta actually has the range and movement to get 2d6 damage most of the time, but I find they're best used harassing and taking objectives. Planning on them killing things is usually planning to fail. If they just had assault 2 for the thermal spear they'd be fine, but the amount of times I roll a 1 for shots and miss or fail to wound is depressingly common.
CatGotYourLas wrote: Welp boys, our knights are safe. Anything with a heavy stubber received a points decrease.
GW generally cut point costs for most armies, meaning that knights got a price hike relative to the rest of the game (except Deldar, which is hilarious)
Valkyrie wrote: Have recently come into possession of a couple of Helverins and a Valiant. I've done some practice rolls and I'm not so sure the Helverins are actually as good as they seem. The flat 3-Damage Autocannons are nice, particularly when you consider how many shots they put out but the S7 really hurts them, they're in that weak spot, can't wound T4 on 2+, can't wound T8 on 4+. Perhaps I'm confusing their role, what would be a couple of example targets that they should go for?
Anything with Fly is a good target thanks to the strat for Helverins, and most flyers are T6, 7 at most (for the big ones like the Stormraven). If Tau players start using Crisis suits again due to the nice points drops they are getting, Helverins will really ruin their day (unless they bring lots of Shield Drones, which they will). Also, Thunderwolf Cavalry are 3 wound models, so every failed save is a dead model. Those are just a few examples; I think Helverins are very solid units as long as you can pick your targets right.
Valkyrie wrote: Have recently come into possession of a couple of Helverins and a Valiant. I've done some practice rolls and I'm not so sure the Helverins are actually as good as they seem. The flat 3-Damage Autocannons are nice, particularly when you consider how many shots they put out but the S7 really hurts them, they're in that weak spot, can't wound T4 on 2+, can't wound T8 on 4+. Perhaps I'm confusing their role, what would be a couple of example targets that they should go for?
Anything with Fly is a good target thanks to the strat for Helverins, and most flyers are T6, 7 at most (for the big ones like the Stormraven). If Tau players start using Crisis suits again due to the nice points drops they are getting, Helverins will really ruin their day (unless they bring lots of Shield Drones, which they will). Also, Thunderwolf Cavalry are 3 wound models, so every failed save is a dead model. Those are just a few examples; I think Helverins are very solid units as long as you can pick your targets right.
Speaking as someone who has ran them, they are very vulnerable to getting tied up in combat. You will need a big guard screen for them to work well.
CatGotYourLas wrote: Welp boys, our knights are safe. Anything with a heavy stubber received a points decrease.
GW generally cut point costs for most armies, meaning that knights got a price hike relative to the rest of the game (except Deldar, which is hilarious)
Or orks. But yeah it might LOOK like knights escaped unhurt from CA but knights took hit. Most of armies took hefty point drops giving even 200-300 pts more to spend and new scenarios also hurt for knights. Less going first, no wipeout wins. There's one scenario which negates knight inv save if you want to contest objective...
Valkyrie wrote: Have recently come into possession of a couple of Helverins and a Valiant. I've done some practice rolls and I'm not so sure the Helverins are actually as good as they seem. The flat 3-Damage Autocannons are nice, particularly when you consider how many shots they put out but the S7 really hurts them, they're in that weak spot, can't wound T4 on 2+, can't wound T8 on 4+. Perhaps I'm confusing their role, what would be a couple of example targets that they should go for?
Helverins are really good against units that can be problematic to deal with using more conventional weaponry. They are good against anything with multiple wounds and an invulnerable save. SSTWC, larger daemons. They are also good against light vehicles and aircraft.
Yes they suffer against T8 but there are plenty of other tools in the IK armoury for dealing with "big game".
Valkyrie wrote: Additionally, with the Valiant, are the rumoured point changes likely to affect the Valiant, or just the Castellan? Again, what would be the sort of targets to go for with the Valiant? The Harpoon is a beautiful weapon but can easily be mitigated by Invulnerable saves.
The latest I have heard is that people who have seen CA is that Knights are not changing in price.
Valkyrie wrote: Have recently come into possession of a couple of Helverins and a Valiant. I've done some practice rolls and I'm not so sure the Helverins are actually as good as they seem. The flat 3-Damage Autocannons are nice, particularly when you consider how many shots they put out but the S7 really hurts them, they're in that weak spot, can't wound T4 on 2+, can't wound T8 on 4+. Perhaps I'm confusing their role, what would be a couple of example targets that they should go for?
Helverins are really good against units that can be problematic to deal with using more conventional weaponry. They are good against anything with multiple wounds and an invulnerable save. SSTWC, larger daemons. They are also good against light vehicles and aircraft.
Yes they suffer against T8 but there are plenty of other tools in the IK armoury for dealing with "big game".
Valkyrie wrote: Additionally, with the Valiant, are the rumoured point changes likely to affect the Valiant, or just the Castellan? Again, what would be the sort of targets to go for with the Valiant? The Harpoon is a beautiful weapon but can easily be mitigated by Invulnerable saves.
The latest I have heard is that people who have seen CA is that Knights are not changing in price.
Helverins suffer from the ability of being turned off by combat. As soon as they are in combat their use almost zeros out for the rest of the game.
Everyone but the Castigator has an invul save in CC, Raven lets them run and fire, which is especially nice combined with Flank Speed, and since the Heirlooms of the Household and Exalted Court don't work on Cerastus Knights, it's not like I can buy extra heirlooms and such anyways.
Anyone have any suggestions what I can do with the last 100 points, or if I should tweak the Warlord (Trait)/Relic?
Everyone but the Castigator has an invul save in CC, Raven lets them run and fire, which is especially nice combined with Flank Speed, and since the Heirlooms of the Household and Exalted Court don't work on Cerastus Knights[b][i], it's not like I can buy extra heirlooms and such anyways.
Anyone have any suggestions what I can do with the last 100 points, or if I should tweak the Warlord (Trait)/Relic?
Oh didnt that change in the last faq?
As an aside im buying some cerastus knights lol but are people happy with them on paper they all seem pretty good.
If your going to cheese a castellen, it has to have cawl's wrath.
I like taranis, but I'm not 100% sure it's better than raven to pump your Castellens damage, especially after the strategum nerf
(Honestly not still salty ) not to mention it doesn't help against the most common way to kill knights of MW spam.
If your going to cheese a castellen, it has to have cawl's wrath.
I like taranis, but I'm not 100% sure it's better than raven to pump your Castellens damage, especially after the strategum nerf
(Honestly not still salty ) not to mention it doesn't help against the most common way to kill knights of MW spam.
I legit think taranis is better than raven if running 3+ knights. Most of the time the castellans shooting kills whatever you need anyways, so dumping CP into raven strats feels wasted occasionally.
So, what have you all been doing in mirror matches?
3 Knights + Armigers Vs. 3 Knights + Armigers?
With how strong our invulnerable saves are shooting doesn't seem to work well. I had a game where two Raven Castellans tried shooting each other down and, after 2-3 rounds, just gave up and switched to different targets since the damage they had inflicted was single digits.
Rushing a Lancer or Atrapos in there might work, but the movement speeds are close enough it also takes some time to actually catch back deployed Knights (especially while dancing to avoid whatever melee Knight the other person has).
As you can guess, it's been giving my brain some strain of late thinking of solid contingencies to take or strategies to use.
I'm pretty enthusiastic about some of the way the Mono knights are working out.
My knight tactics I'm recommending.
Charge units that can't hurt you. Don't leave those attacks on the table.
Exalted Court and Cunning Commander is a no brainier. Use it every time unless there is a specific need not to.
Target Priority wins games.
My list I'm using:
House Tanaris
3x Crusader, 2 with RFBC, 1 With Thermal Cannon, Thermal Cannon upgraded to Fury of Mars, Thermal cannon was Warlord with Ion Bulwark. All 3 with Ironstorm, and H Stubbers.
Everyone but the Castigator has an invul save in CC, Raven lets them run and fire, which is especially nice combined with Flank Speed, and since the Heirlooms of the Household and Exalted Court don't work on Cerastus Knights[b][i], it's not like I can buy extra heirlooms and such anyways.
Anyone have any suggestions what I can do with the last 100 points, or if I should tweak the Warlord (Trait)/Relic?
Oh didnt that change in the last faq?
As an aside im buying some cerastus knights lol but are people happy with them on paper they all seem pretty good.
They got keyword so get traits and strategems in general but they have neither questos nor dominus keyword which those strategems specifically require.
Hi, I have got for xmas 3 Armigers, and I am thinking of getting a proper Knight to add to my current Imperial guard list (some troops and tanks). Wich one should I take? I am thinking of a Crusader.
Babar_babar wrote: Hi, I have got for xmas 3 Armigers, and I am thinking of getting a proper Knight to add to my current Imperial guard list (some troops and tanks). Wich one should I take? I am thinking of a Crusader.
Do you have Shadow Swords for killing big targets? If not, a Castellan with Cawl's Wrath and Ion Bulwark is a fantastic anti-tank and anti-elite unit whilst being pretty durable, even against other super-heavies.
If you feel you have enough anti-tank then a Gallant is fun for tearing stuff apart. If you fear CC then a Valiant from house Hawkshroud with Traitor's Pyre and Ion Bulwark (again) is awesome for BBQing whole squads of infantry at a time.
The Crusader is OK (I have one and it gets good mileage). The downside is that it carries a lot of the kind of firepower that IG armies carry anyway. The Rapid Fire Battlecannon is not much better than a Russ or two with Grinding Advance. The Avenger is good (particularly the relic version, Endless Fury). My main issue with the Crusader is just that for around 100 points more, the Castellan brings an entirely different league of firepower.
I'm getting into knights in an unconventional way, I'm converting up 4 Cerastus knights into Ork Looted Knights for a big conversion project, but on the tabletop I intend to use them as Imperial Knights.
My questions are:
1. Are the Cerastus Knights viable? I technically have 3 Atrapos and 1 Acheron, but intend to make 2 of the Atrapos into a Castigator and a Lancer for varieties sake.
2. Are Cerastus too tall to be 'counts-as' forms of other knights? I'm magnetizing almost everything, and I'm hoping to have each able to be used as a Questoris or Dominus knight as well with some arm and carapace weapon swaps (e.g. using the Atrapos as a Castellan, or the Castigator as a Gallant if I throw on another CC weapon), or are they simply too different?
3. What are the best allies? I actually don't have any Orks outside of a few Speed Freekz which I'll use for fluffy allies, but if I were to convert some Orks into counts-as AdMech or Imperial Guard what should I be aiming for?
Thanks for any help you guys can give! I really appreciate it!
Cerastus Viable? In a word yes, but, like anything your milage might vary depending on your meta. They are more balanced to Close Combating big things over shooting. Your normal Questoris class has much better firepower overall, and maybe even a bit better HTH with a Gallant, but the Cerastus class is faster, tougher and has some like advancing very fast.
Not sure on Counts as. I'd say yes, but you might have some modeling ideas that make it work.
Cerastus Viable? In a word yes, but, like anything your milage might vary depending on your meta. They are more balanced to Close Combating big things over shooting. Your normal Questoris class has much better firepower overall, and maybe even a bit better HTH with a Gallant, but the Cerastus class is faster, tougher and has some like advancing very fast.
Not sure on Counts as. I'd say yes, but you might have some modeling ideas that make it work.
So here were my thoughts for counts-as equivalents for the knights:
1. Atrapos / Castellan (gonna add some carapace guns to sell the Castellan aspect of it, but it's got the two shooty arms)
2. Acheron / Valiant / Gallant (making the flamer arm swappable for a giant Kill Saw for the Gallant, and the chainfist arm for possibly the Lancer's lance to be the Thundercoil Harpoon)
3. [Based on Atrapos] Castigator / Gallant (has the arms of a Gorkanaut, with a big claw added onto the mega-shoota arm)
4. [Based on Atrapos] Lancer / Gallant / Paladin / Errant / Warden (gonna make the lance a type of gunlance, with the shield arm swappable for either a gun or a fist to make into one of the other basic knights)
Does that make sense as long as I were to convert it properly? Am I missing anything?
Attending my first tourney soon here and just wanted some eyes on my list for possible improvements.
IG Battalion
Cadians
2x Company Commander, 1 with Aquila
3x10 Infantry Squads
1x3 Mortar squad
Knights:
House Taranis
1x Castellan, Cawls Wrath, Ion Bulwark
1x Crusader, Endless Fury
2x Gallant, 1 with Longstrider
I can always drop the Castellan into its own detach for house Raven, would that be worth it? Taranis soaks up so many extra wounds with 4 knights and holding cp to stand up is huge when one of your Gallants gets gunned down turn 1. I also plan to run this list or something close to this at LVO after running this first tourney to get a feel for it. Originally I was going to run Custodes, but Knights feel so much better.
Radikus wrote: Attending my first tourney soon here and just wanted some eyes on my list for possible improvements.
IG Battalion
Cadians
2x Company Commander, 1 with Aquila
3x10 Infantry Squads
1x3 Mortar squad
Knights:
House Taranis
1x Castellan, Cawls Wrath, Ion Bulwark
1x Crusader, Endless Fury
2x Gallant, 1 with Longstrider
I can always drop the Castellan into its own detach for house Raven, would that be worth it? Taranis soaks up so many extra wounds with 4 knights and holding cp to stand up is huge when one of your Gallants gets gunned down turn 1. I also plan to run this list or something close to this at LVO after running this first tourney to get a feel for it. Originally I was going to run Custodes, but Knights feel so much better.
You will take an absolute beat down from Aeldari soup, haywire plus doom is no joke and Tarranis doesn't get that FNP vrs MW spam. Not to mention that you're light on infantry for keeping CC monster's out of your knights, it should be a fun list, but your probably going to have a number of bad match ups.
Radikus wrote: Attending my first tourney soon here and just wanted some eyes on my list for possible improvements.
IG Battalion
Cadians
2x Company Commander, 1 with Aquila
3x10 Infantry Squads
1x3 Mortar squad
Knights:
House Taranis
1x Castellan, Cawls Wrath, Ion Bulwark
1x Crusader, Endless Fury
2x Gallant, 1 with Longstrider
I can always drop the Castellan into its own detach for house Raven, would that be worth it? Taranis soaks up so many extra wounds with 4 knights and holding cp to stand up is huge when one of your Gallants gets gunned down turn 1. I also plan to run this list or something close to this at LVO after running this first tourney to get a feel for it. Originally I was going to run Custodes, but Knights feel so much better.
You will take an absolute beat down from Aeldari soup, haywire plus doom is no joke and Tarranis doesn't get that FNP vrs MW spam. Not to mention that you're light on infantry for keeping CC monster's out of your knights, it should be a fun list, but your probably going to have a number of bad match ups.
One of my friends who I play with regularly runs Dark Eldar + Harlie bikes. The large bike unit can help be mitigated by the 5+ vs MW start, but still hurts really bad. Going first and if I can (hopefully) see them I delete em fast. The screens for melee is a big issue, you are correct but I am hoping 2 gallants rushing at the enemy lines will draw the melee to them to be shot in subsequent turns. The only way to get more screen bodies is to drop a Gallant, might be worth it in that case. 350 points of more guardsmen and mortars? Or anything special that you recommend?
Radikus wrote: Attending my first tourney soon here and just wanted some eyes on my list for possible improvements.
IG Battalion
Cadians
2x Company Commander, 1 with Aquila
3x10 Infantry Squads
1x3 Mortar squad
Knights:
House Taranis
1x Castellan, Cawls Wrath, Ion Bulwark
1x Crusader, Endless Fury
2x Gallant, 1 with Longstrider
I can always drop the Castellan into its own detach for house Raven, would that be worth it? Taranis soaks up so many extra wounds with 4 knights and holding cp to stand up is huge when one of your Gallants gets gunned down turn 1. I also plan to run this list or something close to this at LVO after running this first tourney to get a feel for it. Originally I was going to run Custodes, but Knights feel so much better.
You will take an absolute beat down from Aeldari soup, haywire plus doom is no joke and Tarranis doesn't get that FNP vrs MW spam. Not to mention that you're light on infantry for keeping CC monster's out of your knights, it should be a fun list, but your probably going to have a number of bad match ups.
One of my friends who I play with regularly runs Dark Eldar + Harlie bikes. The large bike unit can help be mitigated by the 5+ vs MW start, but still hurts really bad. Going first and if I can (hopefully) see them I delete em fast. The screens for melee is a big issue, you are correct but I am hoping 2 gallants rushing at the enemy lines will draw the melee to them to be shot in subsequent turns. The only way to get more screen bodies is to drop a Gallant, might be worth it in that case. 350 points of more guardsmen and mortars? Or anything special that you recommend?
I don't want to say deffinatly do X or Y as I personally don't run a castellen, but it's not like it's a weakness in your list.
What I would say is Assasins Vanguard 2 Clexus and a callidus,
Making doom a 9+ instead of 7 changes the game on haywire spam, also hand for removing said caster aswell and a cheeky +1CP to agent's of vect (engage smug mode).
Also ironstorms the terrain rules for LVO seriously favour infantry especially NLOS infantry, I believe some people have even discussed wyverns being viable for LVO
I'm mainly a guard player but was gifted a canis rex kit at Christmas! Excited to get it made, magnetised and painted for a small tournie with my guard in a month or so, and was wondering if anyone had any ideas what might run best with this guard list:
2 company commanders
2 psykers
2 tank commanders
6 Bullgryn with a priest
7 infantry squads
1 basilisk
1 wyvern
Was thinking either a terryn gallant with Landstrider and sanctuary, raven crusader with ion bulwark and endless fury or least warden with ion bulwark and endless fury/paragon gauntlet/headsman's mark depending on opponent's list.
With a single questoris, your going to be stuck with 3 real options. Either a Crusader, Gallant, or Canis Rex.
Each has benefits. The Crusader can give you a big boost to Firepower, the Gallant gives you a credible HTH threat, and the Canis Rex, is hardest to use, but has some options, and has that 2+/2+ that makes him hit hard.
Really, You need to look at what your meta has, but your guard list seems weak on Anti armor. You might go Crusader, and Keep the Thermal, and if you can upgrade it to Fury of Mars. Add in the Darkest Hour Strat, and chances are good you will get an extra turn with its shooting. Make sure to give it Ion Bulwark.
Been thinking of changing my knights with air cav list that I've been eyeing up for a while switching from elysian to the new MT formation.
Looking at a battalion of two valkyries carrying a 2 5man squads armed with 2 plasma guns and a plasma pistol each supported by a tempestor with command rod.
It's the knight household I'm not sure of, thinking of 2 crusaders and a knight lancer warlord now they are a bit cheaper. The warlord can have a 3++ from shooting and combat with rotate ion shield and bulwark. Also work well with full tilt due the speed and not sacrificing much in the way of shooting for a first turn charge.
Just not sure if it's worth taking heavy bolter off the valkyries to replace the lancer with crusader for more ranged fire power though it makes the list a little duller. Also not sure what house hold trait to give them, taranis seems tempting to improve survabilty but also thinking best defense is a good offence and going vulker for better shooting
U02dah4 wrote: id read the AM thread if I were you their's a debate about whether the detatchment works at all
Cheers, I've been posting on that thread recently as I'm looking ceasing to use my stormtroopers as Dkok. While I understand the argument for the detachment being broken, in practice it's so pants-on-head stupid I can't see any tournament organisers going with that RAW interpretation and will most likely use some common sense.
Going back to tactics, this list doesn't rely on that formation and could function as a normal battalion granted the bonuses would be nice.
Anyone had any experience with the Emps Wrath Artillery Company detach from Vigilus? Rather than the typical ally in guard + mortars, can take some wyverns instead. The 1cp strat allows you to cancel overwatch and half the movement speed on an infantry unit. Besides genestealers, what infantry units would we want to half speed on? Harlie bikes are bikes, same as custodes etc..
Been proxy-ing a lancer in a list I've been trialing. I really enjoy it as it can be ridiculously durable with a constant 3++ with RIS and bulwark and you will be in the enemies lines turn one with flank speed and full tilt and the shooting is so poor you don't need to bother with raven to preserve it.
The down side is although you'll be able n their lines there's normally enough chaff to stop you getting at good targets so it's not as good as the castellan for eliminating threats, where it seems to shine is panicking inexperienced players but better players will be able to maintain a screen for the first couple of turns. Unless you have a considerable amount of dakka to clear a route.
Ashiraya wrote: Hey guys, just came back to the hobby and still have the knight-lancer that I unsuccessfully tried to sell when I quit lying around.
Is it any good in 40k? Was thinking of perhaps pairing it with Custodes to provide them with some real high octane hitting power.
I hope this is the right place to ask.
If you're pairing it with Custodes, I'd recommend taking it in a superheavy detachment with 2 helverins or warglaives...you can use the CP and the smaller knights work pretty well. Bikes give you chaff-clearing firepower, and knights provide high-strength attacks (melee and shooting). I've been running knights along a full outrider of bikes and they pair together a lot better than I thought...in some cases shockingly so.
Custodes is a hard pair for Knights. In general your going to want to pair to gain CP.
I'd recommend something like... Lancer, Paladin, Warden. That is about 1350 points. With the remaining points go with perhaps a Space Marine battalion with some bells and whistles, or Admech, or Guard. That will let you drop on the table with 14 CP, and you can then warlord up, and pick some relics and Heirlooms.
Hello folks! Was just gifted with a good portion of knights by a friend exiting the hobby and am new to them, having principally just used one renegade on occasion with my chaos folks.
I'd like to get the shake on a good knight list, with some limitations in mind. I'd like it to be a pure knight list (no allies) and I'd like to not use a castellan. I am well aware both of these are core to competitive lists, but I'd more or less like to make a list with just little knights and mediums knights (preceptor would be fine).
You're probably going to want at least one of the Forge World knights in my opinion, in order to not have too many soft targets available. One Knight Styrix is a great option as it essentially comes with Ion Bulwark and Sanctuary, on top of having excellent close and long range firepower. Pair that with something like a fully kitted-out Crusader with Ion Bulwark and a fairly bare bones Gallant and you've got a knight lance with no obvious soft targets of opportunity in it. You've got points left over afterwards, and if it were me, I'd grab either a second Styrix, a Lancer, or an Atropos to start filling out a second detachment, and see what I can do with Armigers.
With a fairly large gap between the Crusader and the Warden. I am thinking about running a House Terryn Paladin eventually though, since with the Relic gun it becomes much better, and I'm already running a pair of Terryn Gallants with my Guard army.
Ashiraya wrote: That's useful. Where would you place the FW knights in there?
Edit: @Horst
Eh, good question. I don't know much about the FW ones, but I'd put them all at mid to low tier rank, since they're all fairly points-heavy, and don't really do anything the other knights don't already do for fewer points.
The main issue I have with the idea of tiering knights is that they vary widely depending on mono codex, major codex, with +32/+17 or as an Army + Knight.
As they play very different, mono knights are not easy to win with, but frustrating to play against for number of players.
Mono+ gives you a touch more options.
But army + knight only has 1 answer as per LVOAM +Castelle Iwon't miss that awaiting super over neff in next FAQ now.
Ice_can wrote: The main issue I have with the idea of tiering knights is that they vary widely depending on mono codex, major codex, with +32/+17 or as an Army + Knight.
As they play very different, mono knights are not easy to win with, but frustrating to play against for number of players.
Mono+ gives you a touch more options.
But army + knight only has 1 answer as per LVOAM +Castelle Iwon't miss that awaiting super over neff in next FAQ now.
Scott Horras posted 6 wins (guess he didn't have enough points to get into top 8 though)? with a list that had 4 tank commanders, and a Terryn detachment with a Lancer and 2 Warglaives. Really interesting list, you can see it here https://imgur.com/a/moyMjO0#2WuflKL
I'm trying something similar with a pair of gallants instead of the lancer, and 2 helverins instead of Pask... looking forward to seeing how good it does! I don't think you have to go AM + Castellan to win though, you can go AM + Melee knights and post up pretty good results too apparently.
Horst wrote: Scott Horras posted 6 wins (guess he didn't have enough points to get into top 8 though)? with a list that had 4 tank commanders, and a Terryn detachment with a Lancer and 2 Warglaives. Really interesting list, you can see it here https://imgur.com/a/moyMjO0#2WuflKL
I'm trying something similar with a pair of gallants instead of the lancer, and 2 helverins instead of Pask... looking forward to seeing how good it does! I don't think you have to go AM + Castellan to win though, you can go AM + Melee knights and post up pretty good results too apparently.
LVO had too many players for 9 round event so they had a ghost round after game 6 of players ranked 5-12. Winner goes on to top 8, loser is out. So Scott lost in the ghost round to a standard ynnari list piloted by a Matt A who is very good player out of texas. Frontline gaming FB page has some phone cam videos of the ghost round (all 4 games Pablo kinda walked by and kept tabs) if you are interested. I only skimmed them to find out the results.
Horst wrote: Scott Horras posted 6 wins (guess he didn't have enough points to get into top 8 though)? with a list that had 4 tank commanders, and a Terryn detachment with a Lancer and 2 Warglaives. Really interesting list, you can see it here https://imgur.com/a/moyMjO0#2WuflKL
I'm trying something similar with a pair of gallants instead of the lancer, and 2 helverins instead of Pask... looking forward to seeing how good it does! I don't think you have to go AM + Castellan to win though, you can go AM + Melee knights and post up pretty good results too apparently.
LVO had too many players for 9 round event so they had a ghost round after game 6 of players ranked 5-12. Winner goes on to top 8, loser is out. So Scott lost in the ghost round to a standard ynnari list piloted by a Matt A who is very good player out of texas. Frontline gaming FB page has some phone cam videos of the ghost round (all 4 games Pablo kinda walked by and kept tabs) if you are interested. I only skimmed them to find out the results.
Ah, I see. I was kinda confused because I saw his 6 wins and no losses, and thought it was off.
Still though, I think melee knights + Guard for ranged support looks like a fun combo, so I'm gonna have fun with it anyway and just hope I don't fight any Ynnari.
Horst wrote: Scott Horras posted 6 wins (guess he didn't have enough points to get into top 8 though)? with a list that had 4 tank commanders, and a Terryn detachment with a Lancer and 2 Warglaives. Really interesting list, you can see it here https://imgur.com/a/moyMjO0#2WuflKL
I'm trying something similar with a pair of gallants instead of the lancer, and 2 helverins instead of Pask... looking forward to seeing how good it does! I don't think you have to go AM + Castellan to win though, you can go AM + Melee knights and post up pretty good results too apparently.
LVO had too many players for 9 round event so they had a ghost round after game 6 of players ranked 5-12. Winner goes on to top 8, loser is out. So Scott lost in the ghost round to a standard ynnari list piloted by a Matt A who is very good player out of texas. Frontline gaming FB page has some phone cam videos of the ghost round (all 4 games Pablo kinda walked by and kept tabs) if you are interested. I only skimmed them to find out the results.
Ah, I see. I was kinda confused because I saw his 6 wins and no losses, and thought it was off.
Still though, I think melee knights + Guard for ranged support looks like a fun combo, so I'm gonna have fun with it anyway and just hope I don't fight any Ynnari.
Don't get me wrong here I really like scott's list appart from the Astra Millicheese part but thats a personal hatred.
The Carestus Lancer is no joke but it does have some bad match ups.
He obviously built a good list and played it well.
This has probably been discussed in the plethora of pages before this but wading through might take too long. I've played vs Knights a few times with my dirty Eldar and have generally come out on top. I see the usual Houses represented but I have yet to see anyone running Mortan. I know on paper it doesn't look overly solid, but that 1 CP strat to fire without any modifiers at all seems like gravy vs Aeldari. I'm thinking of adding one to my Imperial lists (plus 2 Armigers) and may try this option. Probably a Crusader with Thermal or RFBC and Endless Fury. Probably take some rockets too. The -1 to hit warlord trait for Mortan isn't tooo shabby either (although tough to take over Ion Bulwark)
If I'm running Deathwatch, I don't think it's the best choice as they can handle Eldar but it might be a good option for my Dark Angels, especially if I throw a Culexus or 2 in there too to help vs Doom.
What am I missing (apart from the inability to negate MW and fire on top profile)?
While I do like the stratagem and warlord trait, I have a couple of problems with Mortan. The first is that the tradition is pretty much a strictly worse version of krast’s (re-rolling to hit is almost always better than adding +1). The second is that mortan’s relic might as well not exist (you don’t want an upgraded chainsword when paragon gauntlet already exist, and I don’t even use paragon gauntlet). Finally, Morton is imperial and we all know that being being mechanicus fat is better than being imperial.
If you really value the stratagem and warlord trait these downsides might be worth bearing, but I myself am not willing to give up the advantages ta house like krast has (headsman mark, better tradition, mechanicus) for them.
Salt donkey wrote: While I do like the stratagem and warlord trait, I have a couple of problems with Mortan. The first is that the tradition is pretty much a strictly worse version of krast’s (re-rolling to hit is almost always better than adding +1). The second is that mortan’s relic might as well not exist (you don’t want an upgraded chainsword when paragon gauntlet already exist, and I don’t even use paragon gauntlet). Finally, Morton is imperial and we all know that being being mechanicus fat is better than being imperial.
If you really value the stratagem and warlord trait these downsides might be worth bearing, but I myself am not willing to give up the advantages ta house like krast has (headsman mark, better tradition, mechanicus) for them.
Mechanicus is pretty good, but I'm really enjoying running a pair of Terryn Gallants with my Guard list Everyone plays Mechanicus Knights, so the Imperial Gallants have a few tricks people just don't expect. I'm running one with the normal Ion Bulwark, so I can rotate Ion Shields, and I can outflank the other. Effectively this means you don't have a "softer" Knight to shoot at, since the outflanking one gets Landstrider w/ House Terryn, so for a charge roll I just need a 7 on 3D6 pick highest. The Fight Twice stratagem for Terryn is also great if you MUST kill something, and Valiant Last Stand is much better than Noble Sacrifice against enemy characters or scary units, since a fully degraded Gallant hits on a 4+ anyway, and you can focus all those attacks on a single target instead of everything in 2D6 taking D6 mortals.
So yea, if you're taking Gallants there are compelling reasons IMO to go Imperial, but for shooting Knights Mechanicus is where it's at.
Salt donkey wrote: While I do like the stratagem and warlord trait, I have a couple of problems with Mortan. The first is that the tradition is pretty much a strictly worse version of krast’s (re-rolling to hit is almost always better than adding +1). The second is that mortan’s relic might as well not exist (you don’t want an upgraded chainsword when paragon gauntlet already exist, and I don’t even use paragon gauntlet). Finally, Morton is imperial and we all know that being being mechanicus fat is better than being imperial.
If you really value the stratagem and warlord trait these downsides might be worth bearing, but I myself am not willing to give up the advantages ta house like krast has (headsman mark, better tradition, mechanicus) for them.
Mechanicus is pretty good, but I'm really enjoying running a pair of Terryn Gallants with my Guard list Everyone plays Mechanicus Knights, so the Imperial Gallants have a few tricks people just don't expect. I'm running one with the normal Ion Bulwark, so I can rotate Ion Shields, and I can outflank the other. Effectively this means you don't have a "softer" Knight to shoot at, since the outflanking one gets Landstrider w/ House Terryn, so for a charge roll I just need a 7 on 3D6 pick highest. The Fight Twice stratagem for Terryn is also great if you MUST kill something, and Valiant Last Stand is much better than Noble Sacrifice against enemy characters or scary units, since a fully degraded Gallant hits on a 4+ anyway, and you can focus all those attacks on a single target instead of everything in 2D6 taking D6 mortals.
So yea, if you're taking Gallants there are compelling reasons IMO to go Imperial, but for shooting Knights Mechanicus is where it's at.
The key here is you’re running Terryn which is a good house. Sure you’re making use of what imperial has to offer because you are running Terryn, but you’re having success because Terryn is good not because imperial is good. The fact of matter is a 5+++ against mortal wounds, ad-mech synergy, and bringing a knight back up to a full bracket is just too good for imperial to comepete with. You’re not wrong for running Terryn, but the poster I replied to was asking about Mortan which is IMO a different case.
Salt donkey wrote: While I do like the stratagem and warlord trait, I have a couple of problems with Mortan. The first is that the tradition is pretty much a strictly worse version of krast’s (re-rolling to hit is almost always better than adding +1). The second is that mortan’s relic might as well not exist (you don’t want an upgraded chainsword when paragon gauntlet already exist, and I don’t even use paragon gauntlet). Finally, Morton is imperial and we all know that being being mechanicus fat is better than being imperial.
If you really value the stratagem and warlord trait these downsides might be worth bearing, but I myself am not willing to give up the advantages ta house like krast has (headsman mark, better tradition, mechanicus) for them.
Mechanicus is pretty good, but I'm really enjoying running a pair of Terryn Gallants with my Guard list Everyone plays Mechanicus Knights, so the Imperial Gallants have a few tricks people just don't expect. I'm running one with the normal Ion Bulwark, so I can rotate Ion Shields, and I can outflank the other. Effectively this means you don't have a "softer" Knight to shoot at, since the outflanking one gets Landstrider w/ House Terryn, so for a charge roll I just need a 7 on 3D6 pick highest. The Fight Twice stratagem for Terryn is also great if you MUST kill something, and Valiant Last Stand is much better than Noble Sacrifice against enemy characters or scary units, since a fully degraded Gallant hits on a 4+ anyway, and you can focus all those attacks on a single target instead of everything in 2D6 taking D6 mortals.
So yea, if you're taking Gallants there are compelling reasons IMO to go Imperial, but for shooting Knights Mechanicus is where it's at.
The key here is you’re running Terryn which is a good house. Sure you’re making use of what imperial has to offer because you are running Terryn, but you’re having success because Terryn is good not because imperial is good. The fact of matter is a 5+++ against mortal wounds, ad-mech synergy, and bringing a knight back up to a full bracket is just too good for imperial to comepete with. You’re not wrong for running Terryn, but the poster I replied to was asking about Mortan which is IMO a different case.
Most of the stratagems I mentioned though would be effective on any Imperial house, the only Terryn-specific things were the Fight Twice stratagem and the 3D6 drop lowest charge (which are admittedly good). All Imperial Houses get access to the Valiant Last Stand and Outflank stratagems.
I could see a Hawkshroud Valiant being useful as well, with the ability to overwatch with it's Conflagration Cannon (which you'd upgrade to Traitor's Pyre) against enemy units charging friendly units near it. Using any Imperial House for a Valiant is probably a pretty good idea, since you can outflank it, and it really helps to negate it's biggest weakness, that it's all short ranged firepower. If you're playing mostly Catachan Guard, turn 1 you could move up and get into position to charge on turn 2, and turn 2 the Valiant could show up right in the enemy's front lines as well without having been shot at at all. Pretty neat. You could use a Mortan Valiant to do this as well (and the -1 to hit would be pretty useful, since if you're within 18" you're already gonna have a bad time) and then use the Mortan stratagem on the Helverins to work to eliminate tough to hit Eldar units too.
Most of the stratagems I mentioned though would be effective on any Imperial house, the only Terryn-specific things were the Fight Twice stratagem and the 3D6 drop lowest charge (which are admittedly good). All Imperial Houses get access to the Valiant Last Stand and Outflank stratagems.
I could see a Hawkshroud Valiant being useful as well, with the ability to overwatch with it's Conflagration Cannon (which you'd upgrade to Traitor's Pyre) against enemy units charging friendly units near it. Using any Imperial House for a Valiant is probably a pretty good idea, since you can outflank it, and it really helps to negate it's biggest weakness, that it's all short ranged firepower. If you're playing mostly Catachan Guard, turn 1 you could move up and get into position to charge on turn 2, and turn 2 the Valiant could show up right in the enemy's front lines as well without having been shot at at all. Pretty neat. You could use a Mortan Valiant to do this as well (and the -1 to hit would be pretty useful, since if you're within 18" you're already gonna have a bad time) and then use the Mortan stratagem on the Helverins to work to eliminate tough to hit Eldar units too.
So I’m going to have be that guy who rains on other people’s fun here. To put it blunty, the strategies you’re mentioning are excellent at mid-tier tournament tables and in some very specific matchups, but ultimately fall apart once you are forced to play many meta lists.
Let’s start with the outflank stratagem. I think you’ve done a good job of mentioning it’s postives, so I’m going to focus on its negatives. First is that cost 3 CP. That’s not so much of problem for you since you’re running guard as your primary faction, but for anyone else that’s a huge hit. My list for example starts with 15 CP, but 3 CP is simply too expansive for me to consider for 1 stratagem. I supsect many other knights players are in similar positions (as knights as a faction devour CP) so I think you’re underestimating the cost of stratagem for many other players.
That aside I’m still of the opinion the stratagem itself hurts you more than it helps you against most strong opponents.There are 2 main reasons for this. The first and biggest one is that your given up first turn pressure with a 352+ Point model when you decide to outflank them: That is a huge cost for any army, and knights in particular feel it hard. The second is that canny opponents with the right list can and will screen their flanks in such a way that your knight only shows up where you opponents want them to.
Allow me to illustrate why these are such big problems with some recent game examples. Recently I played my buddy who was running a Castellan. I ran 2 crusaders and a gallant agisnt him. During the first turn my buddy had to make a tough decision on which knights he wanted to focus down first with his Castellan, as all 3 knights were going to be major problems for him next turn. Had I outflanked my gallant, my buddy’s choices suddenly become a heck of a lot easier, as now he knows that he as at least a full turn of not having to deal with gallant, and therefore can shoot where he please with Castellan. After this he can use his guard elements to ensure my gallant isn’t anywhere near his Castellan when it walks on from outflank. So by outflanking I would have essentially turned the opening turn from a 2000 vs 2000 point game, into a 1648 vs 2000 point game.
As for the fight when you die stratagem goes, I don’t hate it just because it requires you to fight at your worse profile, I mostly hate it because it requires your knight dying in CC to use. Sure people might be willing to charge your crusader, but most lists I know would try to avoid fighting a gallant in CC if given the choice. This stratagem isn’t useless, but it’s pretty situational.
So there you have it. I suppose some guard list might want a solo gallant who outflanks, but even guard don’t love having to leave 352 points out for a whole turn. As far as a hawkshroud valiant outflanking goes.... yeah I can’t think of a competitive situation where I’d be ok leaving a 600 point model in reserves, not when I can play a Castellan who makes always makes it presence felt turn one.
For a local beer and pretzels game or league game, go wild with these stratagems. But if you want to win a tournament with knights, I’d stick with a mechanicus households unless you’re running triple gallants.
Short IK tournament report out. Had a local RTT this weekend and my house Raven walked. It was an exalted court with a lancer leading a castellan and a warden with two warglaives. The last points were a barebones skitarii battalion.
First game was against a haywire heavy DE list with blobs of grotesques and talos I got to turn 6 but was ultimately tabled. The haywire and coven invuls were just too much ultimately.
Second game was against another knight list with 3 regular knight, a castellan, and the loyal 32. I won but it was close as we traded knights turn for turn. Highlight was one turn charge against his castellan with my lancer and one shotting him in the face. Great opponent and fun game.
Last game was against a mixed SM and GK force. I went first and almost tabled everything he had down. However it was getting late and I had to concede the match as I had to go before he could bring his deep striking force in. Knights against Marines, especially primaris are just brutal. Fun part was he took the sons of Medusa chapter master who held off a knight in 1:1 with his freaking T6 and good saves.
Thoughts:
In a surprise to no one knight heavy lists are so rock paper scissors against other lists. Against the DE I think I did as good as I could have but it was the perfect list to beat me.
Against other knights the lancer really proved it's worth but the warden fell flat. If I keep the warden I'm thinking the paragon gauntlet may be necessary to keep him useful against other big units.
I'm going to drop the warglaives as they did nothing well and couldn't survive long enough to hold objectives and we're killed by both shooting and CC quite easily. Even the SM opponent downed one.
The graia skitarii we're solid despite being smaller than the loyal 32.
Hey guys, just starting Knights. What do you think of this 1500 pt mono codex list? I took melta guns instead of stubbers because I had the points, not sure how else to fill in points
Billagio wrote: Hey guys, just starting Knights. What do you think of this 1500 pt mono codex list? I took melta guns instead of stubbers because I had the points, not sure how else to fill in points
You really need a 3rd big Knight, you can't really get away with just 6 CP. I also wouldn't take a Castellan in a mono-Knights list normally, especially a House Raven one... they really need to eat CP to be effective. At 1500 pts for mono-Knight, I'd probably just take 3x Crusaders.
JNAProductions wrote: I feel like a single Gallant does good work. Make use of Full Tilt and ruin someone's day.
I find most competitive lists can handle 1 knight per turn, but the rushing Gallant forces their target choice, also if it does make it or atleast close some exploding for MW can be epic against castle armies.
However it's a bit of a one trick pony, that can eat CP you don't have.
EDIT: Never mind, found the answer on page 90, it does work. Why is it like 20 pages apart from where the Household rules are discussed? Oh well.
Here's a rules question for you guys: does the <Freeblade> keyword replace the <Household> keyword in the same way that <Raven> does? I ask because I would like to know if I have, for example, two <Freeblade> models in a detachment with one having Landstrider, would they both be affected by it since the aura affects <Household> units? Does it affect only the Landstrider, both of them, or neither of them? What would the reasoning be? My interpretation of the RAW is that it would either affect all <Freeblade> units or none, and I have to imagine GW would not have intended for Freeblades with that trait to not be affected by it, but I need to be able to explain to my opponent why it works.
I’m new to knights, so someone correct me if I’m wrong but if I want to bring a Castellan with AM allies I have to bring it in a super heavy detachment in order to get warlord traits and relics on it. In that case I’d have to take 2x helverins as well right?
Billagio wrote: I’m new to knights, so someone correct me if I’m wrong but if I want to bring a Castellan with AM allies I have to bring it in a super heavy detachment in order to get warlord traits and relics on it. In that case I’d have to take 2x helverins as well right?
You are wrong. That's ONLY for Household Traits-so Raven's Advance and shoot without penalty, Taranis' FNP, etc.
Relics and Warlord Traits you can give to them just fine in an Aux.
Billagio wrote: I’m new to knights, so someone correct me if I’m wrong but if I want to bring a Castellan with AM allies I have to bring it in a super heavy detachment in order to get warlord traits and relics on it. In that case I’d have to take 2x helverins as well right?
You are wrong. That's ONLY for Household Traits-so Raven's Advance and shoot without penalty, Taranis' FNP, etc.
Relics and Warlord Traits you can give to them just fine in an Aux.
Hmmm weird. I thought that was the case but BattleScribe wasn’t letting me make the Castellan a Character without being in the Lance/Super Heavy detach
Billagio wrote: I’m new to knights, so someone correct me if I’m wrong but if I want to bring a Castellan with AM allies I have to bring it in a super heavy detachment in order to get warlord traits and relics on it. In that case I’d have to take 2x helverins as well right?
You are wrong. That's ONLY for Household Traits-so Raven's Advance and shoot without penalty, Taranis' FNP, etc.
Relics and Warlord Traits you can give to them just fine in an Aux.
Hmmm weird. I thought that was the case but BattleScribe wasn’t letting me make the Castellan a Character without being in the Lance/Super Heavy detach
Battlescribe ain't the Codex. And it's not been FAQ'd or Errata'd.
If your army is Battle-forged, select one model in each IMPERIAL KNIGHTS Super-heavy Detachment in your army. Each model you selected gains the CHARACTER keyword. However, the Command Benefit of each Imperial Knights Super-heavy Detachment is changed to ‘None’ unless it contains any combination of at least three QUESTORIS CLASS and/or DOMINUS CLASS units.
It says you can select a unit in a super heavy detachment... not a super heavy aux detachment. So if you want to make a Knight a character, there are two ways. Put it in a super heavy detachment with other Knights, or use the Exalted Court or Heirlooms of the Household stratagems to make it a character to give it traits / relics.
You probably want to do that anyway, if you're taking Knights + Astra Militarum the best play is to generally take your Warlord as a company commander with some sort of CP regen traits / relics, because you'll need them when playing Knights.
Billagio wrote: I’m new to knights, so someone correct me if I’m wrong but if I want to bring a Castellan with AM allies I have to bring it in a super heavy detachment in order to get warlord traits and relics on it. In that case I’d have to take 2x helverins as well right?
You are wrong. That's ONLY for Household Traits-so Raven's Advance and shoot without penalty, Taranis' FNP, etc.
Relics and Warlord Traits you can give to them just fine in an Aux.
Hmmm weird. I thought that was the case but BattleScribe wasn’t letting me make the Castellan a Character without being in the Lance/Super Heavy detach
Battlescribe ain't the Codex. And it's not been FAQ'd or Errata'd.
Except knight lance rule is usable by super heavy detachment. Not super heavy aux detachment.
Billagio wrote: I’m new to knights, so someone correct me if I’m wrong but if I want to bring a Castellan with AM allies I have to bring it in a super heavy detachment in order to get warlord traits and relics on it. In that case I’d have to take 2x helverins as well right?
You are wrong. That's ONLY for Household Traits-so Raven's Advance and shoot without penalty, Taranis' FNP, etc.
Relics and Warlord Traits you can give to them just fine in an Aux.
Hmmm weird. I thought that was the case but BattleScribe wasn’t letting me make the Castellan a Character without being in the Lance/Super Heavy detach
Add the extra relic and warlord trait option to the detachment in Battlescribe and you can do it.
The Aux Super Heavy detachment will give access to stratagems and both the extra relic and warlord trait stratagems give the Knight the Character keyword.
It doesn't work with making him your actual Warlord because he isn't a character by default so you wouldn't get a trait or relic.
For that you would need a Super Heavy Detachment so that the Knight Lance rule lets you make one a character.
Billagio wrote: I’m new to knights, so someone correct me if I’m wrong but if I want to bring a Castellan with AM allies I have to bring it in a super heavy detachment in order to get warlord traits and relics on it. In that case I’d have to take 2x helverins as well right?
You are wrong. That's ONLY for Household Traits-so Raven's Advance and shoot without penalty, Taranis' FNP, etc.
Relics and Warlord Traits you can give to them just fine in an Aux.
Hmmm weird. I thought that was the case but BattleScribe wasn’t letting me make the Castellan a Character without being in the Lance/Super Heavy detach
Add the extra relic and warlord trait option to the detachment in Battlescribe and you can do it.
The Aux Super Heavy detachment will give access to stratagems and both the extra relic and warlord trait stratagems give the Knight the Character keyword.
It doesn't work with making him your actual Warlord because he isn't a character by default so you wouldn't get a trait or relic.
For that you would need a Super Heavy Detachment so that the Knight Lance rule lets you make one a character.
Gotcha, so in a Aux detachment youll need to spend CP to give him a relic and trait?
Billagio wrote: I’m new to knights, so someone correct me if I’m wrong but if I want to bring a Castellan with AM allies I have to bring it in a super heavy detachment in order to get warlord traits and relics on it. In that case I’d have to take 2x helverins as well right?
You are wrong. That's ONLY for Household Traits-so Raven's Advance and shoot without penalty, Taranis' FNP, etc.
Relics and Warlord Traits you can give to them just fine in an Aux.
Hmmm weird. I thought that was the case but BattleScribe wasn’t letting me make the Castellan a Character without being in the Lance/Super Heavy detach
Add the extra relic and warlord trait option to the detachment in Battlescribe and you can do it.
The Aux Super Heavy detachment will give access to stratagems and both the extra relic and warlord trait stratagems give the Knight the Character keyword.
It doesn't work with making him your actual Warlord because he isn't a character by default so you wouldn't get a trait or relic.
For that you would need a Super Heavy Detachment so that the Knight Lance rule lets you make one a character.
Gotcha, so in a Aux detachment youll need to spend CP to give him a relic and trait?
Has anyone had any success with a triple Gallant list? I'm thinking of running a Terryn detachment of 3x Gallants, alongside a Loyal 32 + Mortars Battalion, and a Tank Commander supreme command for ranged fire support. Has anyone played something like this?
Can anyone compare the following math hammer. Im trying to figure it out on dice hammer but don't think its right.
I want to compare a castellan house raven with the reroll 1s stratagem
vs
Castellan house krast with the Headsmark relic. +2 damage to all weapons that target a model with Titanic Keyword.
Basically, im trying to see if the +2 damage is more than reroll all the 1s.
both targets are shooting at an enemy catellan with rotate ion sheilds so 3++
Dynas wrote: Can anyone compare the following math hammer. Im trying to figure it out on dice hammer but don't think its right.
I want to compare a castellan house raven with the reroll 1s stratagem
vs
Castellan house krast with the Headsmark relic. +2 damage to all weapons that target a model with Titanic Keyword.
Basically, im trying to see if the +2 damage is more than reroll all the 1s.
both targets are shooting at an enemy catellan with rotate ion sheilds so 3++
A Krast Castellan with Headsman's Mark does about 80% as much damage to another knight or Titanic unit as a Raven Castellan with Cawl's Wrath does. Against any other target the Raven Castellan does vastly more damage.
Dynas wrote: Can anyone compare the following math hammer. Im trying to figure it out on dice hammer but don't think its right.
I want to compare a castellan house raven with the reroll 1s stratagem
vs
Castellan house krast with the Headsmark relic. +2 damage to all weapons that target a model with Titanic Keyword.
Basically, im trying to see if the +2 damage is more than reroll all the 1s.
both targets are shooting at an enemy catellan with rotate ion sheilds so 3++
Does the Raven Castellan have Cawl's Wrath?
Yes, Raven has Cawls, assume overcharged and Reroll 1 strat
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SevenSixTwoX39 wrote: A Krast Castellan with Headsman's Mark does about 80% as much damage to another knight or Titanic unit as a Raven Castellan with Cawl's Wrath does. Against any other target the Raven Castellan does vastly more damage.
I am looking for the math hammer for it? can you provide that?
Assuming firing two Twin Siegebreakers, Cawl's Wrath/Plasma Decimator, and Volcano Lance at a 3++ Castellan. Shieldbreaker goes into something else, and Meltas are out of range.
I came out to 12.8 for Raven WITH the shield breaker missile, but no melta, and cawls overcharge , for raven reroll 1.s I
I got 13.23 with Krast relic with shield breaker missile, overcharge plasma(no cawl).
My math may be wrong as I am using the dice hammer app.
I have 4.23 wounds for raven cawl
4.84 for volcan lance (unsure on how to input in dice hammer) for reroll 1s on shots
1.61 for seige breaker (again, unsure how to input reroll 1s)
EDIT:
My google fu was weak. I found a great site with the exact info I was looking for.
ive been toying with krast, ran it on the weekend.
(single warden in a 1250 game)
Even without the relic, rerolling to hit in combat really bumps up their effectiveness. I've been playing with house mortan so im used to most of my knights hitting on 2's, but this really helps even on the 3+ to hit, to a point im very happy with it.
Sure the casty is far and above better with raven (for now, im personally thinking they may nerf the raven strat even more rather than touch the casty, unless she gets a points bump).
Additionally, ive been playing around with a knight lancer alot, having a standard 2+/3++ even in combat makes it super tough to kill, which is nice considering you have to make it warlord to get buffed. its super fast and is hard for other knights to kill in combat.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bullyboy wrote: This has probably been discussed in the plethora of pages before this but wading through might take too long. I've played vs Knights a few times with my dirty Eldar and have generally come out on top. I see the usual Houses represented but I have yet to see anyone running Mortan. I know on paper it doesn't look overly solid, but that 1 CP strat to fire without any modifiers at all seems like gravy vs Aeldari. I'm thinking of adding one to my Imperial lists (plus 2 Armigers) and may try this option. Probably a Crusader with Thermal or RFBC and Endless Fury. Probably take some rockets too. The -1 to hit warlord trait for Mortan isn't tooo shabby either (although tough to take over Ion Bulwark)
If I'm running Deathwatch, I don't think it's the best choice as they can handle Eldar but it might be a good option for my Dark Angels, especially if I throw a Culexus or 2 in there too to help vs Doom.
What am I missing (apart from the inability to negate MW and fire on top profile)?
I've been running house mortan for some time, as I'm trying out all the houses.
I also nearly always run an icarus autocannon where i can, they are very handy at taking out eldar boats.
The house mortan strat is very good for them, i usually bait out the lightning reflexes on one gunboat with a helvrin, pop all the strats on the second helvrin into another target (reroll v's fly) and then pop the strat on the big knight and eat the flyer thats at -2 to hit.
I am going to add in a near future a Knight to my Deatwatch and Loyal 32 ( with one Leman Russ tank Comander replacing one of the infantry Commander) army.
Should I go for a Valiant/Castellan or for a Crusader/Gallant instead?
A certain well-known member of the hobby on a certain podcast mentioned a certain often-taken knight would be on the receiving end of some minor nerfs in Big FAQ 2. So, I strongly recommend no one get a Castellan right now.
So, I might have impulse-bought a Valiant on eBay because it was going for a pretty good price. What are the current preferred loadouts in terms of WL trait/house/etc? Thinking one of the Imperialis houses so I can get Traitor's Pyre but Raven's advance and shoot means I can probably get some burninating on from turn one onward. There's also that Imperialis house with the +1 to wound 10 wound models strat, which combined with traitor's pyre could be really tasty vs Eldar (assuming they didn't already kill it with haywire).
RogueApiary wrote: So, I might have impulse-bought a Valiant on eBay because it was going for a pretty good price. What are the current preferred loadouts in terms of WL trait/house/etc? Thinking one of the Imperialis houses so I can get Traitor's Pyre but Raven's advance and shoot means I can probably get some burninating on from turn one onward. There's also that Imperialis house with the +1 to wound 10 wound models strat, which combined with traitor's pyre could be really tasty vs Eldar (assuming they didn't already kill it with haywire).
hah! I've considered buying one of those myself. Personally I'd go Hawkshroud for a Valiant. For 2 CP you can fire overwatch against any enemy charging a friendly within 12" of your Valiant. 3D6 auto hits from a Traitors Pyre is not to be taken lightly, so it puts a massive bubble of "Don't mess with me" around your guys. You can also use it to project a 5++ invulnerable on friendlies around it, so it's really good at protecting your forces from ranged fire too. So Hawkshroud, with Ion Bulwark and Traitors Pyre is how I'd run it.
Hello guys, maybe some of you have some advice for me with an Gallant Knight.
I would like to play him in a lance with 2 Helverins - House Krast.
But i really duno what trait and relic for him. My first thougt was Landstraider and the Paragon Gauntlet.
But if i dont got first turn, mhhhh just an 5++ against shooting (ok 4++ with rotate)
Rest of the army is a DW battalion with many storm bolter and shields and 10 termis with fist and a Admech 165 point battalion.
So he is my disreaction carnifex and tank/monster killer.
Gallants are great distractions, but you need either more knights to give your opponents bard choices or another way of taking down tanks as they can screen out a gallant for Turn 1 almost garanteed.
Why not just a Krast Crusader with Headman's Mark + Ion Bulwark? 4++ to shooting, good vs heavier units and other Knights. You'd either end up losing the helverins or needing to drop like another 150 from Deathwatch (definitely keep the admech CP fund). But it'd probably do a lot more than 1 mono-gallant. Now if you had 3 gallants and a Lancer ....
Thx for advice, ya i wrote a new list, again with a Krastsader^^ and the 2 Helverins. never change a winning team =P i rly dont have much experience with a Gallant thats why i use the Crusader again ^^
for the more points i kicked out the termis in DW, if ok i would post the list?
Just tell me if its the wrong thred for it^^
Exalted Court [-1CP]: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait
Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom
Household Choice: House Krast, Questor Mechanicus
+ Lord of War +
Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 172pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy Stubber
Armiger Helverins [9 PL, 172pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy Stubber
Knight Crusader [25 PL, 523pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Character (Knight Lance), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom (Krast): The Headsman's Mark, Stormspear Rocket Pod, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer
. Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon w/ Heavy Stubber: Heavy Stubber, Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon
Jackal444 wrote: A certain well-known member of the hobby on a certain podcast mentioned a certain often-taken knight would be on the receiving end of some minor nerfs in Big FAQ 2. So, I strongly recommend no one get a Castellan right now.
Well same rumours were in before CA2018 so...
But then again with FAQ coming up with bunch of market led changes likely now is not good idea to buy ANYTHING so no biggie.
Drdotts wrote: I’ve been running house Taranis with 4 questoris knights and 2 battalions and I’ve been pretty happy with it
Mine are painted as such but I find the darkest hour strat always sees me rolling a 1,2,3 even with a reroll. Either that our it gets vect’d
What knights are you taking and what’s your general game plan?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jackal444 wrote: A certain well-known member of the hobby on a certain podcast mentioned a certain often-taken knight would be on the receiving end of some minor nerfs in Big FAQ 2. So, I strongly recommend no one get a Castellan right now.
Mine has only been on the table for 2 months. I feel sad that it’s likely going to be pointed into oblivion. I hope they see sense and nerf the problem with the soup dynamic/house raven rather than the model
How many other Castellan house traits are winning tournaments, I really
Hope that’s taken into account when they factor in a potential nerf
I'm working on a 1000pt list for an event with some friends and will be bringing knights. They will struggle with the missions but I think it will be a fun change of pace from the rest of the field.
Gallant - Exalted Court (Landstrider), Relic (Armour of the Sainted Ion).
Helverin
Only 4cp after the relic/WL trait, but I think this should be enough. I can use 3cp to charge first turn, after hopefully clearing the screens with the Crusader and Helverin.
I don´t know if a have to ask here or not. i want to ask about colour for Knight that allows you to choose between different Houses. How should I paint them?
Alex_85 wrote: I don´t know if a have to ask here or not. i want to ask about colour for Knight that allows you to choose between different Houses. How should I paint them?
Whatever you feel like.
To be extra safe simply use a scheme that is not listed in the codex as belonging to one of the houses.
Alex_85 wrote: I don´t know if a have to ask here or not. i want to ask about colour for Knight that allows you to choose between different Houses. How should I paint them?
My Knights are all painted as House Terryn. I usually play them as Terryn, but I've fielded them with Krast rules before in tournaments. Nobody has had an issue with that. There's no rule anywhere, in any tournament or official rulebook, that states how you have to paint your Knights. As long as you're not doing something like, "This Terryn-looking Knight is using Krast rules, and this OTHER Terryn-looking Knight is using Raven rules", then you're fine. If you stick to the rules set of a single house, there shouldn't be a problem.
Alex_85 wrote: Then no issues if a paint them Gold/Silver/Black?
Nope, do what you want!
Also... has anyone had any success playing a Knight/Guard list, with 2 Crusaders and a Gallant? I've seen the Castellan / Gallant / Crusader combo before, but if I do Crusader / Crusader / Gallant instead I can bring a Guard Brigade instead of Battalion, and I can use Krast (for Headsman's Mark and First Knight on one of the Crusaders) instead of Raven, making my Gallant significantly deadlier.
Crusader (Battle Cannon, Ironstorm Pod, Warlord, First Knight, Headsman's Mark)
Crusader (Ironstorm Pod, Ion Bulwark, Endless Fury)
Gallant (Landstrider, Paragon Gauntlet or Sanctuary)
After spending 6 CP on relics and 1 CP on the assassin, I'd have 14 CP left, more than enough for a non-raven Knight list to power abilities well into the late game.
So I'm thinking of getting a Cerastus Knight to add to my current force, but unsure of which one to go for.
My current Knight force:
- Castellan
- Valiant
- Gallant
- Errant
- Crusader
- 2x Helverins
I'm thinking of the Atrapos, but his weapon seems underwhelming as you're looking for that 6 on the black-hole-cannon. The Lancer is nice but offers nothing that a Gallant can't do, and the Acheron loses out to the Valiant a fair bit.
Valkyrie wrote: So I'm thinking of getting a Cerastus Knight to add to my current force, but unsure of which one to go for.
My current Knight force:
- Castellan
- Valiant
- Gallant
- Errant
- Crusader
- 2x Helverins
I'm thinking of the Atrapos, but his weapon seems underwhelming as you're looking for that 6 on the black-hole-cannon. The Lancer is nice but offers nothing that a Gallant can't do, and the Acheron loses out to the Valiant a fair bit.
Any tips?
Really the Atrapos has potential, but it loses out hard to screening units, a Lancer is my personal next pick for my knight's because
1 it's a knight with a lance and shield, it is cool
2 It does a few things better than a gallant, being a bit faster invulnerable in CC, and a shooting attack.
3 I already have a Styrix
It's not better enough to justify the price difference but if you want a FW knight it's probably one of the more competitive choices.
Anyone have success with double Valiant builds? Whole lotta burning moving up the table center and you can still fit in two battalions for a comfy 16 CP (pre inevitable nerf next week). Thinking Hawkshroud with traitors pyre and ion Bulwark on one and can't decide on the other
Probably a Helverin. Double BN + SHD is 16. If I had to pick a bigger Knight, probably a Gallant, though not sure I can still fit in the double BN at that point.
You can squeeze that in. Another house to consider is Terryn. Fight twice turn Gallant can take the heat off your Valiants as it can’t be ignored. The Landstrider and increased to Advance/Charge rolls from Terryn means your all moving up the board and into range quicker
Annoying for all those Knight players with Castellan's having to redo their army lists because of the +100 Pts increase from the big FAQ. I can understand the invulnerable save maxing out at 4+ though.
that is what will happen to every dominating tournament list (same thing happened to ynarri+aeldari), is a pity non tournament players must pay the fee anyway....
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Annoying for all those Knight players with Castellan's having to redo their army lists because of the +100 Pts increase from the big FAQ. I can understand the invulnerable save maxing out at 4+ though.
What is everyone's thoughts?
Doesn't affect anyone playing pure knights as Castellen wasn't viable anyway, it's gone from soup only OP to soup only period.
The 4++ is a bit annoying but if I’m being objective probs fair. The points increase makes it a shelf warmer in a knight army. I’m not so clued up on guard to know if they can shave 100 points from a list. But at 704 points you’d be as well bringing a porphyrion
The 4++ is fine and good for the game, and something I’ve been suggesting for a while. Sure, it makes lone Knights easier to kill, but, at least now we don’t need to spend 3CP each turn on the Castellan.
Points wise, we all knew it was coming. Whether lists change, we’ll have to wait and see. It’s still going to put out a lot of damage and cause problems for people – people just need to decide on whether they can drop 100 points of Guard/
Yeah. I run the soup list, and agreed the Castellan was a bit OP. I think in typical GW fashion they went a bit to far. The 4++ max was probably all that is needed.
The points increase sucks, but I can drop a basilisk in my army and still keep it and not be to worried. So people running "the list" of Guard batt infantry + castellan + fill in what you like will still be seen.
Interestingly though, I don't see any changes to the Raven Strat.
Also I am suprised they didn't at least increase the act at Top Shelf strat either.
The best ones are the Cerastus Lancer and Acastus Porphyrion. The Lancer is certainly not as good as it used to be though, since it was the only Knight that could get a 3++ in melee before. The Porphyrion is an 830 point model and costs 500 USD, but it's got firepower enough to make a Castellan look like a joke, is BS2, T9, 30 wounds. It's quite strong.
Time of madness wrote: What’s the best way to run a valiant in a lone super heavy detachment (doesn’t benefit from household).
Finally got to try a couple games with one today. I would strongly suggest finding the points to get that thing a household trait as it really benefits from Hawkshroud (your flamer doesn't care about degrading, but all your other guns and more importantly, your movement does). It didn't make it past turn two in either game, though the second game it broke even before it died. The harpoon just bounced off of invulns both games. Based on these two games, I wouldn't even bother running a Valiant without some form of house trait. It really needs every special rule it can get to get the max value out of it since it is such a fire magnet.
Traitors pyre feels like an auto take, which kind of locks you into an Imperialis house, though the fire and advance house trait from Raven seems like it would be really good with it as well. Warlord trait is probably always going to be Ion Bulwark. Can't see myself taking the extra shield breaker missiles over the shoulder cannons.
I'm no longer as interested in taking two of them together. I got a lot of the value out of it both games from the explosion, so having them close enough to reinforce each other with the Hawkshroud strat is probably not going to work out too well for me when one blows. Thinking of bringing along a Gallant with it next game.
The 4++ is a bit annoying but if I’m being objective probs fair. The points increase makes it a shelf warmer in a knight army. I’m not so clued up on guard to know if they can shave 100 points from a list. But at 704 points you’d be as well bringing a porphyrion
Gallant
Gallant
Porphyrion
Cadian Batallion
Graia Batallion
85 points for assassin is 2k on the nose
not sure why you still dont take the Castellian. t8 vs t9 isnt a big deal. 2 more wounds and bs2. not sure its worth 150+ points more. Still killing 2 tanks with the raven relic gun
The 4++ is a bit annoying but if I’m being objective probs fair. The points increase makes it a shelf warmer in a knight army. I’m not so clued up on guard to know if they can shave 100 points from a list. But at 704 points you’d be as well bringing a porphyrion
Gallant
Gallant
Porphyrion
Cadian Batallion
Graia Batallion
85 points for assassin is 2k on the nose
not sure why you still dont take the Castellian. t8 vs t9 isnt a big deal. 2 more wounds and bs2. not sure its worth 150+ points more. Still killing 2 tanks with the raven relic gun
Exactlly your uaing raven strategum and cawls wrath.
So your burning 3CP per shooting phase, Knights dont come with double digit CP. Your going to have 1 maybe 2 ahooting phases before you arw out of CP and the Castellen without CP is not worthwhile.
Also raven while great for a Castellen isn't a good house for a multi knights list either
not sure why you still dont take the Castellian. t8 vs t9 isnt a big deal. 2 more wounds and bs2. not sure its worth 150+ points more. Still killing 2 tanks with the raven relic gun
Lascannons, plasma, melta, dark lances all get hit by T9. And with no 3++ anymore big AT weapons are likely taking field again.
2d3 shots is also lot better than 1d6 for shots and flat 6 is better than 3d3 damage. So all in all polyphorpion is lot more reliable. No rolling low for shots with volcano lance.
And no need for relic(can be used elsewhere) nor spending 3 CP to power up. Knight lists aren't swinging with CP unlike IG force with single castellan.
Eldenfirefly wrote: So, now that Castellan is 100 points more expensive. What do people think about the Valiant now? Will knight lists with Valiant start to pop up?
Probably not. People will just use more Crusaders, the Krast Crusader w/ Headsman's Mark + First Knight was already pretty good, now it just looks even better.
Isn't that the generic objective rather than given specifically?
Anyway that's not too bad. Nowadays there's the drop 0-6 cards and many play "can't draw, redraw immediately" so it's no big deal to have that. And indeed can be advantage...
I don’t know about you, but I’m certainly interested in the new Armigers that were on show yesterday and potentially being on sale at Warhammer Fest this weekend.
Looks like a Volkite/Plasma version with a claw and another double gun version that looks like it has all the shots.
Kdash wrote: I don’t know about you, but I’m certainly interested in the new Armigers that were on show yesterday and potentially being on sale at Warhammer Fest this weekend.
Looks like a Volkite/Plasma version with a claw and another double gun version that looks like it has all the shots.
The all the shots one might be interesting, you don't happen to have a link do you?
Thr problem I have with the Volkite is it falls into a very overlapping position in 8th edition with the autocannons on a helverin.
That said I'd love to see some rules for the new atropos class knight.
Eldenfirefly wrote: So, now that Castellan is 100 points more expensive. What do people think about the Valiant now? Will knight lists with Valiant start to pop up?
As some have said before the Crusader becomes a go to K ight in multi knight lists. As an addition to an AM list you still take him and run a brigade and battalion.
Kdash wrote: I don’t know about you, but I’m certainly interested in the new Armigers that were on show yesterday and potentially being on sale at Warhammer Fest this weekend.
Looks like a Volkite/Plasma version with a claw and another double gun version that looks like it has all the shots.
I believe the first one is a mini Styrix type knight with a Volkite weapon and a siege claw with rad-cleanser and the second has dual lightning cannons. Basically armiger versions of the styrix and magaera in a way.
Kdash wrote: I don’t know about you, but I’m certainly interested in the new Armigers that were on show yesterday and potentially being on sale at Warhammer Fest this weekend.
Looks like a Volkite/Plasma version with a claw and another double gun version that looks like it has all the shots.
The all the shots one might be interesting, you don't happen to have a link do you?
Thr problem I have with the Volkite is it falls into a very overlapping position in 8th edition with the autocannons on a helverin.
That said I'd love to see some rules for the new atropos class knight.
Sorry it took so long but this was in the new thread.
I've acquired two more questoris knights now. I'm late to the party I guess, but I'd like to know what's best 3 questoris knights list? Can soup with anything Imperial really. I've seen couple of 3 crusader lists going around, but I'm more interested in Crusader and two Gallants to have points for more soup ingredients.
Do you play for fun or competitive? Cause 3 knights for fun is usually a bit controversial in a friendly game lol
I’ve had good success with both Krast and Taranis. It comes down to playstyle and what you mix them with.
Taranis is a very CP heavy house and I found SHD(6) + Bat(5) + Bat (5) + BF (3CP) {19CP} was only just enough
Krast is a better budget house and a Bat +SHD was just enough CP if I was careful
On Gallants. I love them, my favourite knight to play...but I can never seem to get them to work. Maybe it’s my meta or maybe I play them wrong but they just don’t seem to do nearly as much as a crusader does.
I've acquired two more questoris knights now. I'm late to the party I guess, but I'd like to know what's best 3 questoris knights list? Can soup with anything Imperial really. I've seen couple of 3 crusader lists going around, but I'm more interested in Crusader and two Gallants to have points for more soup ingredients.
Any thoughts on this? Planning to run Krast.
Gallant and Crusader are probably the 2 best Questoris builds IMO so you should do well. Crusader + 2 Gallants will be around 1250 points (depending on options) so enough points for a battery battalion, even at 1500 points. I tend to alternate between Terryn and Raven but Krast looks good too for Gallants. I like relic Avenger (Endless Fury) on the Castellan +the Krast WL trait for LOTS of hits. "Blessed by the Sacristans" on a Gallants feet is great fun too for lots of stompy attacks. Probably some other combos but those spring immediately to mind.
Do you play for fun or competitive? Cause 3 knights for fun is usually a bit controversial in a friendly game lol
I’ve had good success with both Krast and Taranis. It comes down to playstyle and what you mix them with.
Taranis is a very CP heavy house and I found SHD(6) + Bat(5) + Bat (5) + BF (3CP) {19CP} was only just enough
Krast is a better budget house and a Bat +SHD was just enough CP if I was careful
On Gallants. I love them, my favourite knight to play...but I can never seem to get them to work. Maybe it’s my meta or maybe I play them wrong but they just don’t seem to do nearly as much as a crusader does.
Run 3, bring a guard Batallion. All the best
I was already in team Mech Warrior, I play Tau too My group has regular tournament goers so knights shouldn't be a problem. The thing I like about Krast is the Headsman's Mark that buffs Crusaders shooting against vehicles/other Knights and their warlord trait First Knight allows him to reroll ones to hit. At the same time Krast household tradition buffs Gallants. So it should be good for both.
I've acquired two more questoris knights now. I'm late to the party I guess, but I'd like to know what's best 3 questoris knights list? Can soup with anything Imperial really. I've seen couple of 3 crusader lists going around, but I'm more interested in Crusader and two Gallants to have points for more soup ingredients.
Any thoughts on this? Planning to run Krast.
Gallant and Crusader are probably the 2 best Questoris builds IMO so you should do well. Crusader + 2 Gallants will be around 1250 points (depending on options) so enough points for a battery battalion, even at 1500 points. I tend to alternate between Terryn and Raven but Krast looks good too for Gallants. I like relic Avenger (Endless Fury) on the Castellan +the Krast WL trait for LOTS of hits. "Blessed by the Sacristans" on a Gallants feet is great fun too for lots of stompy attacks. Probably some other combos but those spring immediately to mind.
Yeah, those questoris knights are the most specialized so they tend to do best.I like the Endless Fury a lot (brrrrrrrrt) but I was thinking of Headsman's Mark. I can of course buy either with Heirloom of the Households. Speaking of, is it worth it to actually make all the knights characters? I can see Heroic Intervention being a thing, but probably not against more experienced players.
To me the biggest thing to watch for when you make a knight a chr isnt heroic intervention but those relics / units out there that give major bonuses when used vs a chr.
Like tzaangors, not very good vs knights but can actually hurt vs a knight chr thanks to rerolls. Or the khorne demon sword relic, becomes just as good as the axe vs knight chrs.
I've acquired two more questoris knights now. I'm late to the party I guess, but I'd like to know what's best 3 questoris knights list? Can soup with anything Imperial really. I've seen couple of 3 crusader lists going around, but I'm more interested in Crusader and two Gallants to have points for more soup ingredients.
Any thoughts on this? Planning to run Krast.
I just took 5th place at a major GT (and got top Imperial player, only Chaos and Xenos above me) with a 3 Krast Crusader, 2 Tank Commander list. My cheesy army of doom - https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/1009097-.html
Dropping a Crusader for a Gallant is definitely an option, but really what would that 100 extra points buy me? A Wyvern for anti-infantry is about it. I'd rather have the extra firepower from the 3rd Crusader.
well mono knights were fun whike they lasted.
Iwon't miss that 
awaiting super over neff in next 
Everyone plays Mechanicus Knights, so the Imperial Gallants have a few tricks people just don't expect. I'm running one with the normal Ion Bulwark, so I can rotate Ion Shields, and I can outflank the other. Effectively this means you don't have a "softer" Knight to shoot at, since the outflanking one gets Landstrider w/ House Terryn, so for a charge roll I just need a 7 on 
My group has regular tournament goers so knights shouldn't be a problem. The thing I like about Krast is the Headsman's Mark that buffs Crusaders shooting against vehicles/other Knights and their warlord trait First Knight allows him to reroll ones to hit. At the same time Krast household tradition buffs Gallants. So it should be good for both.